when you all purchased the book and walk away with it, what would you like your readers to maybe take away or with or yeah, yeah. i think it's just my main messages would be this a long history native nations. i think i said this already. basically native nations were here long, long time ago. they're here today. they're going to be here in the future. and they're an important part of u.s. history. but on the flipside, u.s. history is just you know, it's only 250 years old. it's there's a, um it's it's a bit of a blip in native history. and, you know, we'll what the future holds. but, um, you know, i, it's, it, it may end up that's a that's a smaller, smaller segment of the history of this continent in the long, long run than the united states, even. thank you. i wanted to give folks an opportunity to ask any questions

they might have. and i'm sorry i, um there are there will be if you raise your hand, someone will bring you microphone. and if you would just kind of speaking to about as close as i am, i should state that. thank you so as a historian and i'm curious to know and talked about there being sort of ah the nation especially native americans being in the midst of a renaissance currently historically. we've also named various moments in native american history right remove all that you know as eras removal and things like that. what do you think we'll name this moment and what will historians call this moment in the future? if you had to project. yeah, yeah. that that's that's a great, great question. and i think, you know, historians calling it the self-determined era and sort of the revival of sovereignty, um,

i wonder if we're now moving even into sort of the next phase and it may be too early to, uh, to name it, but i think maybe, maybe self-determination is sort of 70 years or very late 20th century, beginning of the 21st century. maybe now we're in something, you know, people use the word renaissance a lot i think that probably doesn't work because it was a different historical era. but but i think maybe there there's going to be some some word that gets at the sort more than self-determination, using that self-determination, that increase of sovereignty to, you know, so, so say, you know, places that have casinos or have other sort of, um, sort of ways of starting bring income in that they didn't have before. many are pumping that money back into, you know, into new tribal businesses, into small business loans for tribal and all that and this sort of virtuous circle of investment that and then also putting money into cultural revival language. so i think it will be a word or

a couple words that gets at that kind of moving even what you can do with, sovereignty, even, you know that that affects people's lives even more. thank you. because it feels like it just sort of stops with the seventies and eighties and that might be how history sort of happens. like we're just haven't quite gotten around to renamed to naming a new thing. but it does feel like i teach native american literature when i teach i. and when you teach native american literature, you're teaching native american history because we don't get it so you don't get it. and so it is funny because everything still seems to stop in the seventies and eighties so and so then that still feels like ancient to young university students. yeah, i would. yeah. yeah, exactly. and yet you go into bookmarks and and there's there's clearly a renaissance going on in native literature today. so maybe. yeah, maybe. yeah. that makes me now want to use the word renaissance. just go ahead and use that and students now, they've been using it in native american for long. oh, okay. good, okay, good, good. yeah. so maybe you need a but. yeah, thanks.

but it's okay so high. it takes me a long time. check things out and i've only just watching yellowstone. but i've been interested in the native. american storyline and i if in current culture what feel is an accurate of the current native themes or reality yeah, yeah. so, so i do have a few favorites. i like reservation dogs, which is based on, on the creek reservation in the. in oklahoma. and uh, um, uh oh. what's the ed helms rutherford falls. rutherford. and it's about history. it's, it's this town where.

two best friends, one who's whose ancestor founded the town, right? he's sort of this new england guy. and and then and his best friend who runs the tribal cultural center and museum. and and she's she belongs to the it's sort of made up, but it's like, you know, the local tribe. and it also has lots of native actors and writers and, um, and it's funny reservation dogs is funny too, but it's a little, uh, rougher. um, and what? oh, and uh, um, uh, um. resident alien. is maybe going a little bit further, right? but it's, it's about. so this, this guy who's actually an alien, but then he makes friends with, lots of indians and he know an alien. yeah. and also funny, funny and very smart so. and also, you know, again, you know, just it's this renaissance period like there are so many native writers and native

actors, native showrunners who are involved in these, um, in these shows, it's it's really, i think it's an exciting time and then if you really like mohawk girl, it's just a girl. so. so, so you had mentioned, um, sort of that reciprocity you were sharing with the tribes and then also coming back with literature and other sources from different european nations. when you shared that information with them, did you like little vignettes where they kind made connections or maybe found something contradictory, something shared based on that new interaction? yeah, that's a great question. so so most of that for me has been with the co-op has because i my first book had to do with co-op on osage history. and so that i got to know, um,

the tribal historic preservation officer and some of the people there. and so the, these documents that i was using are from the 18th century, the french and, spanish. and so it's one of the things that they're wanting to do is, is just really have this long history of their own, that they that they're writing and telling to their own people. and so just having those as part of, uh, of their archive is really important and then the co-op boards can go look at them themselves. and i think some the most interesting conversations have been about language because um, the french missionaries who would come in and they wanted to learn and in this case they wanted to learn cobol language in order to, for it to be part of their mission izing effort. and so they would write down vocabulary words as were trying to learn for themselves. and those are really documents to a tribe today. it gives them a into the language of their ancestors, which has changed over time. some of been lost, but also some of it is just changed because

languages change over the centuries. and so to sit down those and sort of say those words out loud, because, you know, the french guy is writing down with a lot of extra letters because the french has a lot of extra letters. and so you sort of say it out loud if, you read french and then a couple who who knows language hears it and it oh that's this word, even though it doesn't look like it right when a frenchman wrote it down. so those have been some of the most exciting conversations. so i hope those kinds of things will continue. but, um. but yeah, i think. how were you able to incorporate mythologies or religious or spiritual, um, you know, themes, stories into the work that you did? i mean, i, i do some of that and i try to be careful with there's lots i don't know, there's tons. i don't understand. and so religion, something i probably try to be even more

careful with than other things. but, um, and to try to keep it on a pretty general level, one of the things that, um, i think is really important for understanding this long history is these inclusive ascetic nature of most native religions that, you know, at least in theory, islam, judaism, those are all exclusivist. you, you are or you aren't, right? and you become christian. you're supposed to stop being the non-christian you were and become. now, you know, it's a little more complicated that in actual life, but native religion to generalize were esthetic are inclusive ascetic in that if you and your people you know it's not willy but you see you learn about a belief a religious belief or a religious that seems true that seems valuable. you can pull in and make it part of your religion having to get rid of anything else. if you think it doesn't make sense, then you don't have to. right. but, um, and i think that's,

that's a really way of understanding ending interactions or religious between europeans and native people. there were plenty of times when christian missionaries thought they had made converts and they thought that meant they'd got of their old religion and then found actually, no, that they're had used their own methods of of inclusive, ascetic religion and had, uh, had added christianity to that of parts of christianity to what they already believed practiced. um, and i think that's one of the ways in which native religions been able to survive in various forms and adapt because they're supposed to adapt or they're supposed to change as they add new things. but without, uh, you know, complete giving them up. how did you get interested in? are you part native american? no, but yeah. so i'm not native at all. i got interested in it because i went to grad school and i wanted

to i wanted to study, um, colonial history interactions in early america among various europeans and various native americans. i, um, i knew that's what i wanted to do. i took on a class in, in college that got me interested that but i really thought to be more a little bit more about europeans and the native americans would just be part of the story. but um, i ended writing my first book, my dissertation and my first book on, on arkansas, which is where i'm from. and i knew the french and spanish had had sort of settled there and i thought, well, i can read those documents in french and spanish. and we were talking about and but it turned out those are places where the fa in both case the fa edge of of the french or the spanish empire, arkansas was not where you wanted to be sent. if you worry i officer in the french or spanish empire and so so this official unofficial would be sent out there with maybe ten soldiers. right because these are empires are very spread out surrounded

by thousands and thousands dozens of of oh of cops right there. and then many, many more osage were incredibly and dangerous tribe anybody who crossed them the 18th century and so their documents the letters the reports that these men had to write back are just they're just full of everything that. what was said or that the osage did. and it and as i read those and wrote dissertation, i thought, well, this is this is a place that where native americans are in charge and and europeans are just there writing down. they're not doing much else. they're, um, plenty of other places. europeans were doing terrible things right. but, but in place, it sort of taught me that there were places of places and times across continent where native americans had a lot of power. and that just got me really interested that, um, and then i, you know, been doing this for several decades now. i got to know just lots of

native scholars both within tribes and in the academy and, um, just started realize how connected the present is with the past. um, and sort of, that sort of eventually led me to this, this book and then i think a much richer understanding of native american history than i had, uh, when i wrote my first book, maybe time for one or two more questions. so maybe the last two here. so my question has to, do i'm the sort of person who likes to build my cultural literacy through fiction, wonder stories? so i wondered if whether you as a historian, just as a reader, whether you enjoy native american fiction, indigenous literatures, if so, whose work you might recommend? yeah, yeah, i really do. yeah. though i think we should throw it back to you probably write. yeah so i'm excited to read tommy orange his new book. i liked his first book a lot. i we were just talking about, about susan in my native american history class, which is

a sort of freshman and sophomore level class at usc they read her grass dancer. and i think that's, uh i, i loved all of the things that she's written, but i really like that. um and i mean, there are just so many these days, right i would have to sort of sit down and write a, write a big list and um, yeah, but, uh, yeah. and then and then yeah. so there's little fiction there. i quote some fiction authors in the book and a lot of poetry, um, through joy harjo and, um, and natalie diaz, um. thank you. no, sir. yeah and i will say that, um, maybe last year or the year before they had an author here who wrote a book called calling for a blanket down. and that was, that was really good. yeah. so yeah, was really good. um, so was wondering, i feel like my education native

americans was pretty much a watered down version of what really happened, kind of basically the thanksgiving great we all shared food and it was fun but it wasn't to a college that when i history classes that like oh my gosh is fascinating and horrible all at the same time and i just wonder you know, i feel like my children who are now college age learned similar even though they did incorporate a native american maybe it was that class that my daughter took in high school. however, i'm wondering if you know if changing what children are learning in elementary school about native history. yeah i'm i you know my kids are now teenagers i was really interested in this and. i, i don't know. i think like so things it completely depends on the individual teacher and some are doing a terrific job and read a lot and bring in speakers or

just because i think one of the most like one of the most important things for non-native kid to learn is is is to meet a native person and really okay yeah you really are here today and, and, uh, and then i think in others they aren't, i mean, history is also hard to teach elementary school kids, for sure. it's horrible right. even the good parts are adult content only right, but, but i don't know. we're we're certainly trying the college level at least to, to provide, um, yeah. i don't know, i don't it's hard. i mean, teachers to do so much and then trying fit really in depth native history into a u.s. history class when you're going at breakneck speed anyway. um, yeah i don't know power to them right well. we're almost out of time. is there anything you like to leave with or else you'd like to say or no. this has been just such a pleasure. i'm so glad to have come to bookmarks where i haven't been

before. it's it's such an exciting space to be and and it's great wonderful to have have your questions later. this has been just a delight. well, think everyone would agree we really appreciate you coming sharing your book with us and your knowledge with us. and so i'd like to thank you. and if we do a round of applause

welcome everyone to the 12th annual san antonio book festival. and i wish to extend thanks to the central library for helping us to present on this amazing day. thank you. especially to the horn holt family for sponsoring this venue. and i want to thank you for being here. to hear dr. matthew bowman talk about his remarkable book, we encourage you to share your experience today on social media and tag the essay book fest.

all events in this venue are being by c-span's book tv. i imagine they will announce one that will be on at some point. silence or cell phones if you haven't done so already. flash photography. not permitted book sales and signings will take place after the session ends at the nowhere bookshop tent, which is actually somewhere it's located outside in the festival marketplace, which is otherwise the parking for the utsa southwest campus. please support your local economy and. our official bookseller and our authors by buying your books here at the festival. i'd like to say a few words about matthew remarkable career. he is currently an associate professor of religion and history and the howard w hunter, chair of mormon studies at claremont graduate university,

claremont graduate university. he writes and about new religious movements in the united states mormon history, evangelical history and the paranormal. his work has appeared in slate, washington post, the new republic, and many other venues. he lives in claremont with his wife, daughter, lots of houseplants. his latest book is the abduction of betty and barnhill alien encounters civil rights and the new age in america. so, matthew, welcome. let's give a warm welcome to matthew. thank you. take it away. so i want to say a little bit about the book before we get into a conversation and then hopefully some questions from you. i want to introduce you to betty and barney hill and i'll start

by saying if you have ever heard a story of somebody perhaps driving alone late at night, perhaps waking up in their bed, being confronted by a glowing light in the sky by small gray creatures with large heads and slanting black eyes who might have taken this person aboard a vessel and performed medical experiments on them, only to return them to their car, their bed, home, and to lose all memory of that event until recovered through hypnosis. later, you've heard the story of betty and barney hill. and betty and barney hill were the first americans to claim abduction by extraterrestrials. the first to claim to have been subjected to medical experiments by these beings. and the first to recover those memories through hypnosis, story and begin in new hampshire, where they lived in september

1961, while driving home late one night, they saw a strange light in the sky that seemed to be the end of it. but over the next three years, they had nightmares, they had panic attacks and eventually consulted a psychiatrist who hypnotized them and under hypnosis, recovered memories of this very strange event. and that story became a bestselling book. it was in 1975, turned into a film produced by and starring james earl jones and then was featured on carl sagan's extremely popular cosmos miniseries in the early 1980s. it has become more than a real touchstone in the ufo mythology of the united states. but i want to argue as well, it's much more than that. any and barney hill story for me

as a historian, as a of religion, was as much about the age in which it was told and repeated and retold and retold as it was about their own experience. and i wanted to know who barry and barney hill were, how they in turn, this event when it came to mean to them, they were, in fact, in some ways very typical americans of their time. and they were voters who supported the democratic party for the most part, they supported the liberal policies of franklin roosevelt and john f kennedy of lyndon johnson, and they were activists. hill was white. she grew up in a union family in new hampshire and attended the university of new hampshire and worked as a social worker. abani hill was black. his family had fled the south during the great migration of the 1920s and 1930s. they ended up in philadelphia,

where he grew up and attended college and became enmeshed in the national association for advancement of colored people, which was at that point the most prominent civil rights organization in the country. both them. then, by the time they married in 1960, were passionately committed to civil rights. they were prominent members of the acp in portsmouth, new hampshire, where they lived. they were involved in activism after this experience. then they went to their minister. they were unitarian. it's a denomination with which very much believed in science and in progress. and they were gratified when their minister believed them. they also went to the u.s. military, which was second nature to americans in those period in those years. in 1960, the gallup poll showed that 75% of americans believed that the u.s. government would

do the right thing. most or all of the time that's unimagined to us today. but it was very true for betty and barney. then, of course, they went through the medical establishment and went to sekai interests. this was a period in which psychiatry and hypnosis were widely covered in the u.s. media. and this was the dawning of what was sometimes called the age of therapy. when americans begin to consult psychologists and psychiatrists for problems of anxiety. so when all of these ways, the hills were very typical, but they felt as they went to all of these authorities. they found that almost universally they were rejected. they were told that this could not have happened to them. the psychiatrist hypnotized them, told them not to trust recovered memory, and he told them that the memories they would recover under hypnosis would be maybe emotional. only true, but not literally

true. and when did they emerge this process, having very detailed memories of this bizarre encounter? the psychiatrist said, this didn't really happen to you. it is reflective, perhaps, of your emotional trauma, of your fears and your anxieties, but not of literal truth. when they went to the military, they were politely received and then their report was filed away. so they began to seek out other authority as they found their way into the new age movement. they chandler's visionary eyes on people who told them that their story was only one part of a much spiritual transformation coming to the united states and the world in total. and they were sucked in eventually into conspiracy thinking. and betty hale, by the end of her life, believed that the government was not to be trusted, that the government was hiding things and covering things up.

she worried about black helicopters and being followed by the enigmatic men in black, secretive agents who tried to cover up and hide ufo belief in the country. by the end, then of betty hill's life and by the end of barney's life, they were living in a very different world than they had before, or a world of fear, of paranoia, of belief in strange, supernatural creatures and a world in which the government and other authorities, the very authorities who had rejected them, were not to be trusted. so in this way, then we might think that the story of betty and barney hill is a strange outlier, that ufos are a bizarre fringe belief in our country. but in fact, the story of betty and barney hill is the story of american society in the 1960s and 1970s. it reveals a great deal to us, not only about who betty and barney were, but about who we

all are as well. thank you, matthew. i really want to thank you as an author on subject myself or contextualize and not only the events that they became famous for, but betty and barney themselves. you reveal facts about them that really nobody had written about before. it's fascinating that barney came from a part of philadelphia where african-americans had established respectable lives. and this theme of respectability is something that you touch on time and again. the same also for betty. she was part of a union family and felt that the promises of the new deal were be realized in her times and in her generation. so i'll get back to that in a minute. but i'd like to just start with thmo