languages, took children their homes from their cultures, and put them on trains too far away to try to make them not to be part of their community anymore. the fact that, you know, some of those children went back home and learned those lessons from their grandparents and their parents insisted on continue, you know, that their grandparent and parents insisted on that their kids would continue you to be kiowa or whatever they you know they were is just is just amazing and i think one of the things i try to talk about in every chapter is the importance of women in in just that. why utah maintaining maintaining even through adaptation, through change because all cultures change. right. but but just maybe quietly speaking the language at home, telling kids over and over who they are, you know who you are, we know who you are. even if if it's school or whatever, you you don't talk about it. i think that's just that's maybe

the biggest key to how they how survived as nations and throughout the book european and colonial colonial colonialists views of land are central to the relationships between them and native nations. what were those views and how did they transition over the centuries to the increased detriment of native americans? yeah, so, um, you colonization has at its root the idea that you could take other people's stuff. it's sort of the opposite of reciprocity and it gave european an idea that they, they had a right to what they wanted and they in no way were always able to do that. there are plenty of times when when native nations had the power to keep them from doing, um, but there's an under current of sort of belief from the

beginning that native nations don't quite own the land. maybe it doesn't completely belong to them, maybe god doesn't. for them to still stick around. um, there's, there's very sort of religious tone to early on in, in colonization of, of the americas and then it, it continues in various forms over the over the centuries through indian removal sort of, you know, say maybe a native nation does have a right to some, but the u.s. government can say where that land can be. and it isn't their homeland anymore. if if there are u.s. citizens who want that and through through allotment in the in the late 19th century and early 20th century, when reservations were carved up once again in, an attempt to make their not be an attempt by the u.s. government to, make their not be communal lands anymore, to make their not tribal lands to have, uh, native people only be individual

landowners as part of a, um, attempt to take land and to break up tribes. um, yeah, i think and in the book it's very stark, when you see the maps right that you include and how sort of gets to the ends, of, of the reservation lands and sort of the very narrow small areas. yeah. in the afterword you write white settlers who took land wrote a new that hid native nationhood and power and made their own rise seem inevitable and justified. how would you rewrite that history? um, yeah. so i think. this is in some ways my, to answer that question, right, that native nations were a long time ago. they're, they survive colonialism here today and they'll be here in the i think is the counter to that.

and you know, i think one of the things that many native americans keep saying today is we're still here. and that is just the direct response to that sort of settler colonial attempt, not not only to take land and to to break up tribes, all of those things we've been talking about. but then to paper it all over as if it hadn't is if, you know, native americans, they were sort of here, but they never really owned on the land. and, uh, yeah i think i would just say exactly opposite. they, they've been here the whole and many have legal rights land and we were talking in the back about sovereignty especially with the cherokee nation. if you want to speak a little bit about both the use of the law to keep lands also to reclaim them today and i know there's some work to do that right right right. so so one of the things i think a lot of people don't know today

is, is is how tribal sovereignty today that that was federally recognized tribes have have under the under the federal government have um have certain elements of sovereignty that some of that is rooted that cherokee court case was true versus which was the first case to use the term domestic dependent nations. i at the time the cherokees and those native nations think they were domestic to the united states all they were their own nations. but it's a very powerful tool forward of, uh, of asserting sovereignty within the united that, uh, tribal nations recognized. tribal nations, at least are not under the states. they are sort of alongside the states, under the federal government. they have treaty rights certainly, um, that, that uh, they can enforce through, um, in the courts and they know people have been paying attention to. they've won a couple of really important u.s. cases before the u. for the u.s. supreme court recently, including, um, uh, the mcgirt case, which, uh, which is

about, about sort of exercising sovereignty over criminal cases among many of the tribes in oklahoma. um, and so a lot of this is still just being worked out exactly what sovereignty will look like going forward. but just a, just a couple of examples, if, um, if you looked at the, the infrastructure bill or, the covid relief acts, you can see those that aid was going to or federal dollars were fund or were flowing to states, counties and tribal governments. that and tribal governments is at the end those lists and it's a really important reminder that um these are functioning governments that have a huge amount of, of, of presence in the lives of their tribal if you want easy way to do is just go to a tribe's website and many tribes have a website that you know, has a lot about history and a lot about culture, but is mostly about social services and the kinds of things that governments do. and it's a really good reminder that they you know they're

governing entities, um, and that they're, they will be for that, for, you know, well, the future. and i haven't lived in north carolina very as the couple of years. so you could speak to the native nations that are here and within north carolina. um, to those who also may not know much about them. right. i'm really glad you ask that. i've sort of had to say, except for state recognized a couple of times, i get myself rescued from that. so the eastern band of cherokee is the only federally recognized tribe that's based in north carolina. the others are state recognized tribes. and so one of the chapters, one of the actually the first chapter i have in here that has europeans it that europeans are in the whole chapter is the founding the brief founding of roanoke on the north carolina coasts. and so ancestors of many of north carolina's native nations today are in that chapter, um, sort of in this very, um, brief interaction with the english who tried to found a, uh, a colony

at roanoke and failed, obviously. and so then i do talk in the book about north carolina state recognized tribes over the, um over their centuries of history since then. and, um the very this the striking difference between what it meant to be native nation that faced the english very early right on the atlantic coast whether in north carolina virginia, new england versus peoples like the cherokees the kiowa is the chinese who had a little more time and who could do had a longer with the sort of thing i was reading about the the mohawks know people on the coast of north carolina virginia new england they are hit very hard and very fast with large large, large numbers of english settlers and the fact that they survive even as native communities is even more amazing that they still today, that they through the centuries just kept

telling their children and their this is who we are. no matter what happens in the outside world with without, you know, and jim crow and all of these efforts to, you know, turn them into either white people or black people or or maybe just generic native people. um, they kept their, you know there's some of them definitely combined, but they, they, they kept their native communities and they kept many separate native communities through to today. and they too, i think are having a renaissance. and um, in various ways though still struggling about sort of recognition. when you all purchased the book and walk away with it, what would you like your readers to maybe take away or with or yeah, yeah. i think it's just my main messages would be this a long history native nations. i think i said this already. basically native nations were here long, long time ago. they're here today.

they're going to be here in the future. and they're an important part of u.s. history. but on the flipside, u.s. history is just you know, it's only 250 years old. it's there's a, um it's it's a bit of a blip in native history. and, you know, we'll what the future holds. but, um, you know, i, it's, it, it may end up that's a that's a smaller, smaller segment of the history of this continent in the long, long run than the united states, even. thank you. i wanted to give folks an opportunity to ask any questions they might have. and i'm sorry i, um there are there will be if you raise your hand, someone will bring you microphone. and if you would just kind of speaking to about as close as i am, i should state that. thank you so as a historian and i'm curious to know and talked

about there being sort of ah the nation especially native americans being in the midst of a renaissance currently historically. we've also named various moments in native american history right remove all that you know as eras removal and things like that. what do you think we'll name this moment and what will historians call this moment in the future? if you had to project. yeah, yeah. that that's that's a great, great question. and i think, you know, historians calling it the self-determined era and sort of the revival of sovereignty, um, i wonder if we're now moving even into sort of the next phase and it may be too early to, uh, to name it, but i think maybe, maybe self-determination is sort of 70 years or very late 20th century, beginning of the 21st century. maybe now we're in something, you know, people use the word renaissance a lot i think that probably doesn't work because it was a different historical era. but but i think maybe there there's going to be some some word that gets at the sort more

than self-determination, using that self-determination, that increase of sovereignty to, you know, so, so say, you know, places that have casinos or have other sort of, um, sort of ways of starting bring income in that they didn't have before. many are pumping that money back into, you know, into new tribal businesses, into small business loans for tribal and all that and this sort of virtuous circle of investment that and then also putting money into cultural revival language. so i think it will be a word or a couple words that gets at that kind of moving even what you can do with, sovereignty, even, you know that that affects people's lives even more. thank you. because it feels like it just sort of stops with the seventies and eighties and that might be how history sort of happens. like we're just haven't quite gotten around to renamed to naming a new thing. but it does feel like i teach native american literature when i teach i.

and when you teach native american literature, you're teaching native american history because we don't get it so you don't get it. and so it is funny because everything still seems to stop in the seventies and eighties so and so then that still feels like ancient to young university students. yeah, i would. yeah. yeah, exactly. and yet you go into bookmarks and and there's there's clearly a renaissance going on in native literature today. so maybe. yeah, maybe. yeah. that makes me now want to use the word renaissance. just go ahead and use that and students now, they've been using it in native american for long. oh, okay. good, okay, good, good. yeah. so maybe you need a but. yeah, thanks. but it's okay so high. it takes me a long time. check things out and i've only just watching yellowstone. but i've been interested in the native. american storyline and i if in current culture what feel is an

accurate of the current native themes or reality yeah, yeah. so, so i do have a few favorites. i like reservation dogs, which is based on, on the creek reservation in the. in oklahoma. and uh, um, uh oh. what's the ed helms rutherford falls. rutherford. and it's about history. it's, it's this town where. two best friends, one who's whose ancestor founded the town, right? he's sort of this new england guy. and and then and his best friend who runs the tribal cultural center and museum. and and she's she belongs to the it's sort of made up, but it's like, you know, the local tribe. and it also has lots of native actors and writers and, um, and it's funny reservation dogs is

funny too, but it's a little, uh, rougher. um, and what? oh, and uh, um, uh, um. resident alien. is maybe going a little bit further, right? but it's, it's about. so this, this guy who's actually an alien, but then he makes friends with, lots of indians and he know an alien. yeah. and also funny, funny and very smart so. and also, you know, again, you know, just it's this renaissance period like there are so many native writers and native actors, native showrunners who are involved in these, um, in these shows, it's it's really, i think it's an exciting time and then if you really like mohawk girl, it's just a girl. so. so, so you had mentioned, um,

sort of that reciprocity you were sharing with the tribes and then also coming back with literature and other sources from different european nations. when you shared that information with them, did you like little vignettes where they kind made connections or maybe found something contradictory, something shared based on that new interaction? yeah, that's a great question. so so most of that for me has been with the co-op has because i my first book had to do with co-op on osage history. and so that i got to know, um, the tribal historic preservation officer and some of the people there. and so the, these documents that i was using are from the 18th century, the french and, spanish. and so it's one of the things that they're wanting to do is, is just really have this long history of their own, that they that they're writing and telling to their own people. and so just having those as part of, uh, of their archive is really important and then the

co-op boards can go look at them themselves. and i think some the most interesting conversations have been about language because um, the french missionaries who would come in and they wanted to learn and in this case they wanted to learn cobol language in order to, for it to be part of their mission izing effort. and so they would write down vocabulary words as were trying to learn for themselves. and those are really documents to a tribe today. it gives them a into the language of their ancestors, which has changed over time. some of been lost, but also some of it is just changed because languages change over the centuries. and so to sit down those and sort of say those words out loud, because, you know, the french guy is writing down with a lot of extra letters because the french has a lot of extra letters. and so you sort of say it out loud if, you read french and then a couple who who knows language hears it and it oh that's this word, even though it doesn't look like it right when a frenchman wrote it down.

so those have been some of the most exciting conversations. so i hope those kinds of things will continue. but, um. but yeah, i think. how were you able to incorporate mythologies or religious or spiritual, um, you know, themes, stories into the work that you did? i mean, i, i do some of that and i try to be careful with there's lots i don't know, there's tons. i don't understand. and so religion, something i probably try to be even more careful with than other things. but, um, and to try to keep it on a pretty general level, one of the things that, um, i think is really important for understanding this long history is these inclusive ascetic nature of most native religions that, you know, at least in theory, islam, judaism, those are all exclusivist. you, you are or you aren't, right? and you become christian. you're supposed to stop being the non-christian you were and

become. now, you know, it's a little more complicated that in actual life, but native religion to generalize were esthetic are inclusive ascetic in that if you and your people you know it's not willy but you see you learn about a belief a religious belief or a religious that seems true that seems valuable. you can pull in and make it part of your religion having to get rid of anything else. if you think it doesn't make sense, then you don't have to. right. but, um, and i think that's, that's a really way of understanding ending interactions or religious between europeans and native people. there were plenty of times when christian missionaries thought they had made converts and they thought that meant they'd got of their old religion and then found actually, no, that they're had used their own methods of of inclusive, ascetic religion and had, uh, had added christianity

to that of parts of christianity to what they already believed practiced. um, and i think that's one of the ways in which native religions been able to survive in various forms and adapt because they're supposed to adapt or they're supposed to change as they add new things. but without, uh, you know, complete giving them up. how did you get interested in? are you part native american? no, but yeah. so i'm not native at all. i got interested in it because i went to grad school and i wanted to i wanted to study, um, colonial history interactions in early america among various europeans and various native americans. i, um, i knew that's what i wanted to do. i took on a class in, in college that got me interested that but i really thought to be more a little bit more about europeans and the native americans would just be part of the story. but um, i ended writing my first book, my dissertation and my

first book on, on arkansas, which is where i'm from. and i knew the french and spanish had had sort of settled there and i thought, well, i can read those documents in french and spanish. and we were talking about and but it turned out those are places where the fa in both case the fa edge of of the french or the spanish empire, arkansas was not where you wanted to be sent. if you worry i officer in the french or spanish empire and so so this official unofficial would be sent out there with maybe ten soldiers. right because these are empires are very spread out surrounded by thousands and thousands dozens of of oh of cops right there. and then many, many more osage were incredibly and dangerous tribe anybody who crossed them the 18th century and so their documents the letters the reports that these men had to write back are just they're just full of everything that. what was said or that the osage

did. and it and as i read those and wrote dissertation, i thought, well, this is this is a place that where native americans are in charge and and europeans are just there writing down. they're not doing much else. they're, um, plenty of other places. europeans were doing terrible things right. but, but in place, it sort of taught me that there were places of places and times across continent where native americans had a lot of power. and that just got me really interested that, um, and then i, you know, been doing this for several decades now. i got to know just lots of native scholars both within tribes and in the academy and, um, just started realize how connected the present is with the past. um, and sort of, that sort of eventually led me to this, this book and then i think a much richer understanding of native american history than i had, uh, when i wrote my first book, maybe time for one or two more questions. so maybe the last two here.

so my question has to, do i'm the sort of person who likes to build my cultural literacy through fiction, wonder stories? so i wondered if whether you as a historian, just as a reader, whether you enjoy native american fiction, indigenous literatures, if so, whose work you might recommend? yeah, yeah, i really do. yeah. though i think we should throw it back to you probably write. yeah so i'm excited to read tommy orange his new book. i liked his first book a lot. i we were just talking about, about susan in my native american history class, which is a sort of freshman and sophomore level class at usc they read her grass dancer. and i think that's, uh i, i loved all of the things that she's written, but i really like that. um and i mean, there are just so many these days, right i would have to sort of sit down and write a, write a big list and um, yeah, but, uh, yeah. and then and then yeah. so there's little fiction there. i quote some fiction authors in

the book and a lot of poetry, um, through joy harjo and, um, and natalie diaz, um. thank you. no, sir. yeah and i will say that, um, maybe last year or the year before they had an author here who wrote a book called calling for a blanket down. and that was, that was really good. yeah. so yeah, was really good. um, so was wondering, i feel like my education native americans was pretty much a watered down version of what really happened, kind of basically the thanksgiving great we all shared food and it was fun but it wasn't to a college that when i history classes that like oh my gosh is fascinating and horrible all at the same time and i just wonder you know, i feel like my children who are now college age learned similar

even though they did incorporate a native american maybe it was that class that my daughter took in high school. however, i'm wondering if you know if changing what children are learning in elementary school about native history. yeah i'm i you know my kids are now teenagers i was really interested in this and. i, i don't know. i think like so things it completely depends on the individual teacher and some are doing a terrific job and read a lot and bring in speakers or just because i think one of the most like one of the most important things for non-native kid to learn is is is to meet a native person and really okay yeah you really are here today and, and, uh, and then i think in others they aren't, i mean, history is also hard to teach elementary school kids, for sure. it's horrible right. even the good parts are adult content only right, but, but i

don't know. we're we're certainly trying the college level at least to, to provide, um, yeah. i don't know, i don't it's hard. i mean, teachers to do so much and then trying fit really in depth native history into a u.s. history class when you're going at breakneck speed anyway. um, yeah i don't know power to them right well. we're almost out of time. is there anything you like to leave with or else you'd like to say or no. this has been just such a pleasure. i'm so glad to have come to bookmarks where i haven't been before. it's it's such an exciting space to be and and it's great wonderful to have have your questions later. this has been just a delight. well, think everyone would agree we really appreciate you coming sharing your book with us and your knowledge with us. and so i'd like to thank you. and if we do a round of applause

hi, everyone. welcome. thank you for joining us tonight in celebration of exurbia. now the battleground for american democracy. my name nyein and i'm a manager at the seminary co-op. as you might know, our was founded in 1961 and in 2019 became the country's first and currently only not for profit bookstore whose mission is? bookselling. this mission recognizes as a cultural endeavor. booksellers as professionals and bookstores as. a civic institution that supports an informed populace. we invite you to browse, and we also invite you to learn more about the co-op. our sister store, 57th street books and how to support these unique cultural institutions by visiting our website. and of course, speaking to a bookseller after this event, one of the main ways you can support our stores is by buying a book. maybe like the one tonight and we're the author will be happy to be signing books after the event. you can also become a