well, good evening, everyone,

and welcome politics and prose. i'm brad graham, the co-owner of. the bookstore, along with my wife alice, lissa muscatine and we're very to be hosting professor robert small, who's to discuss his new book, mr. churchill, in the white house the untold story of a prime minister and presidents. for nearly 40 years, bob taught at notre dame and is chair emeritus in american studies and journalism. he's written previously on the american presidency and american political culture and

contemporary communication, other subjects. but also harbored a lifelong fascination with winston so much so that a special section of his personal library is devoted to and volumes about the great british statesman. bob's new book represents, in his words, a of literary marriage between his longtime interests in the us presidency and churchill. it's focused on the british leaders visits to the white house under roosevelt and later under eisenhower. visits that were not unusual in cases for their duration sometimes lasting several weeks. but they took on diplomatic military significance as churchill used them. as bob writes to troll washington with his and views

and hopes of warring presidents to initiate joint activities involving britain and the united states. a churchill, of course, was an enthusiastic proponent of the notion of special relationship between the two countries. he first used the term in a 1946 speech and his up close and personal advocacy for america to align itself. british interests employed both charm and relentlessness. now bob draws a range of sources, diaries, government documents and memoirs to provide a quite a and revealing account of the days churchill roosevelt and eisenhower spent together in days that churchill spent with roosevelt and. spent with eisenhower. while stories have proliferated over the years about the prime minister's stays at the white house, bob does his best to

separate fact from. but even in bob's telling, churchill comes across as at times not the easiest of houseguests given among other habits, his tendency to wander the hallways in the early hours, wearing only dressing gown with a cigar hand. other times he was encountered with nothing on at all. indeed, eleanor would have preferred churchill to occupy house across the street from the white house instead. anyway, book offers a fresh and frequently entertaining look at u.s. british relations at the highest level during an important span of history. and moderating the discussion this evening about these special will be one of our country's leading political correspondents, bob costa, whose chief election and campaign correspondent for cbs news.

so you can imagine he has nothing to do these days about previously as a national political reporter, the washington post and as moderator and managing editor of washington on pbs. he also co-wrote it with bob woodward, the bestselling peril about the tumultuous transition between the trump and biden presidencies. plus, he has his own connection to churchill, which he will explain in a minute. so ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming bob small and bob costa costa. thank you so much, brad. appreciate it. good evening to everyone. thanks much for coming out here tonight. i'm bob costa with cbs. and i'm really to be here not only with one of the great authors in, professors, but my former professor at the

university of notre dame, robert small. he a terrific journalist. professor, academic. over the years, he has written about everyone from father theodore hesburgh to essay collections about his journalism to writing about the easter in ireland's children, to my one of my most favorite books, recent memory the glory and the burden about the american presidency. and so when brad, about the literary marriage that has led to this project, mr. churchill in the white i was so intrigued because. it also does have a personal element for me as a journalist and as a person. when i was at the university of notre dame, i was thinking about what to do after college, and i decided ultimately to go to the university, cambridge in england to get a master's at the encouragement of small. and i studied winston churchill and i spent a year at queen's and a lot of time at churchill

college. and i studied anglo-american relationship. so almost 20 years later, after i first met professor shmuel, now he is now writing about in the white house and we spent a lot of time today in washington, d.c., taping a really special conversation on churchill that will air on cbs saturday morning the following saturday. i believe that would be july 13th, if i'm correct. that will air on cbs saturday morning. so anyway, welcome, professor small, the washington, d.c. politics and prose. mr. churchill in the white house has so many funny about sir winston churchill, the former british prime minister. it has story after story, what it was like to encounter churchill in the white house. but what your book also is the urgency of the moment. in late 1941, when this prime decides to come across, the

treacherous waters of the atlantic to visit franklin roosevelt. president united states after pearl after the united states has been attacked. take us into that moment the seriousness it when churchill decides in 1941 to come to the white. thank you, bob. winston had wanted the united states to get involved, moved. i suspect most of you are aware here of the speech that he gave less than a month into his prime ministership when he we shall never. we will fight on the beaches. we fight in the fields. and you that you know, the statement that setting is. encompasses 141 words.

it ends with him saying that he hopes the new world will come to the rest rescue and liberation of the old. and i say that for this reason, he had gone through the battle of britain. he had the blitz, the many days of bombing in london and, elsewhere in england. so that when pearl was attacked, he immediately made the decision, i will go to washington and i will create the grand. and that meant going to the white house. he does it very. it takes ten days of fighting, gales, storms.

the possibility of a u-boat attack. finally, on december 22nd, he arrives and they do not announce it until. he is in behind the gates of the white house. he has told the president, i will be with you about a week. he left. on january 14th. we can all the mathematics involved in that he gave new meaning to the concept of a houseguest. and during that time you have this very interesting sort of interplay of the public and the private and the public included.

on the day after arrival day after arrival, he and franklin roosevelt do a press. at that point, winston churchill, who i don't think any of us would say would be sort ready for the summer olympics physically jumps on a chair and waves to the reporters who were in the back because they wanted to see wanted to see what this man looked like the next day, he and franklin roosevelt speak at the dedication of the crisp mystery, the national christmas tree. it was the first time that he had spoken on america soil. americans knew of him, but they had never heard him directly.

and all the radio carried the air, carried the event. in his remarks. he referred to the white house as, the summit of the united. that's an important word. him. it would later even more important. but it's an important concept for him. he wanted to be with the america and he wanted be sure that they were on his side and that they would listen to his advice and his strategy about the war. the next day is christmas. he and franklin go to church. winston churchill was not a great attendee at religious

service of any kind. later said to dwight eisenhower when. dwight eisenhower asked him to go to church. he said, i will meet my maker soon enough. but they go to church. come home. winston churchill sits through a portion of a movie that is shown at the white house that night. oliver twist and gets up during it and says i need to do my homework. his homework was to finish a speech to a joint session of congress, which he delivered on december the 26th. i say that for this reason he wanted to become well known to

americans that first trip. how well known. i discovered that there were two sets of twins that were named winston and franklin. there were little boys who were named winston. as a result of the attention he received during that during that period. and no fewer than 5000 cigars arrive at the white house. now, for the sake of security because they didn't know might be in them poison or you know whatever. all of them were just thrown in the incinerator and you know that killed but that was the fact of life. he received mail at the white

house. one of them, one of the letters arrived at still in the churchill archives holdings. and it was it was just addressed way. churchill the magnificent the white house washing dc we all get mail of that of that kind. and what i'm suggesting is he was he was becoming some and he using the new popular authority to advance his cause and his was the cause of democracy the cause of freedom. and for this partic killer visit, he wanted to make sure that even though the japanese

had attacked pearl harbor, that the alliance would focus on germany first. very important to. get germany out of the way and then deal with japan. and as history unfolded, that's exactly what transpired after that, things settle down and they get to work and they put together the opening of the war linking the u.s. and the british troops. but it's a farce, an ending opening to the series of visits that he to the u.s. and seven different times he is staying at the white house in our business professor at cbs, we often use the phrase fact check.

fact checked this was churchill often in pajamas or naked. while he was at the white house. you're very impertinent. the answer is yes to both. in fact, secretary of war stimson comes to the white house on december the 24th of 1941, and with him with him can't make this up. talk about fact checking. you nosy reporters. he brought with him general by the name of dwight deicer power. and what is the stimson diary? which is fascinating in itself, is is stimson reacting somewhat

disapprove movingly to? what churchill wearing? he was anderson bay or, you know, the french phrase and you some of you would know it. he just thought, my goodness, he's in the white house. why is he wearing an as he was, which is he he ran around in what he referred to as his siren suit. his siren suit was the of onesies for a baby. and he called it his suit because he could jump into this outfit so quickly bombing and then stroll around wherever, wherever was. now that is when he is dressed, when not dressed and one critic

said, i dwell too long on this so i'll speak quickly maybe. but they lived in what he said was was familial intimacy at the white house and and churchill and roosevelt often worked in bed. okay. he would. churchill would dictate. and read and work with various staff members while he was in bed in rose bedroom at the white house. and franklin roosevelt because of his inability to would often be in bed, would be working working there. so they would go back forth from room to room and. one time a churchill hears a trivial fact that.

you should all know he took two baths a day. regardless where he was to base. he was coming out of the bath on january the first of 1942, and franklin roosevelt had been thinking all about a new name for the alliance against nazi germany. italy and the japanese. and he came up with phrase united nation the united nations pretty important i think all of us would agree. and he's very about sharing with with churchill. so he goes to his room at the white house and opens the door. and there is the prime minister

having just arisen from his bath and he apologizes a little and churchill is alleged have said, i have nothing to conceal from the president of the united states. but what is to me a humorous in a historic circle way and this is all very serious and it's import is that franklin roosevelt love to tell the story and said to irish-catholic secretary you know grace he's pink and white all over over and that's the that's the roosevelt rendition of say told it to many people and that's in the book

but i think the other one and i will stop here on this particular point by saying that in january, just before churchill returned to the united kingdom, wendell willkie, who had run. roosevelt in 1940, and wendell willkie, my home state of indiana, was the republican candidate and they had been friends to a certain roosevelt and and willkie stopped by white house and the president. do you want to you want to see winston while you're here? and they, too, had known other. you know. sure. let's go. so they go to his and the president says to the person

outside. is your man up yet? and churchill, in the lovely phrase that he used about himself a tardy riser. he stayed up till 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning working and doing other things, drinking maybe. and they at the door said, i don't. so he said, well, let let's just the door opened and there again in his pink and white all over situation is the prime minister who says and i i'm quoting again for the historical record pray excuse my state of nature. and please come in so that i think the long winded answer to

your question is yes and yes. it's no surprise here in all of this that the first lady, eleanor roosevelt, did not seem to love the idea of churchill staying so long. what did you learn throughout the course of your reporting, research about her response and her interactions with churchill, eleanor. roosevelt by, her husband, that's a bad start. that's bad start. but a true start actually not informed that they would have visitors that christmas. and as she in her column, you know are you aware that eleanor roosevelt a very popular newspaper column my day and over 100 newspapers i think pretty sure and she this right after

it's announced that churchill has arrived that she knew nothing about it to take care that group of people coming might involve the moving of furniture over and things like that that. she should have known about. well to get to your point she was someone who did not look favorably upon his habits. his habits he did i think we acknowledge that he was known to drink somewhat. he was also known to roam the hall aisles of the white house. and one morning at 3 a.m. he is

walking around in his rompers and she sees him. and says, where, where are you going? and he says, well, there was one other point. i wanted to to the president and she says, i think that couldn't till breakfast and and she later went the president and said i think the government should have a president guesthouse and i think maybe house should be the guest house. and in 1942 the government bought blair house as the

president's guesthouse but winston spencer church never stayed in blair house much to the chagrin of eleanor roosevelt in terms of or sort of an equal time. what i discovered, i think it's interesting clementine churchill didn't much for franklin roosevelt roosevelt eleanor roosevelt did not much care for winston churchill and that dynamic plays out in the course of the visit and in the book the white house as stage four winston churchill as your book. so carefully documents and illuminates churchill struggled at times to get back to the white house by 1943, especially

1944, roosevelt running for reelection, has lot on his mind. talk about the evolution of churchill's with roosevelt and how affected whether or not came to the white house. great question. and my reading of it is that early on this visit of. 1941 into 1942, then there was a very important visit in june of 1942. we can into that, if you'd like and then there were two visits that went beyond a couple weeks in 1943 in may of 1943. and that included second address to a joint session of congress. big deal. and then in in august sept

remember of 43 it was a matter of this kind of interesting i'm going to play this one out for a little bit i argue in the book that among winston churchill's traits i mean we know him as a politician statesman writer order go down the list. he was also a daredevil. he wanted to be in the action. he wanted to be at the action and in the summer into the fall of 43, i document that he arrived in canada and goes all the way across to quebec and then makes a long journey down to hyde park to visit to visit roosevelt and then heads back

canada for the first quebec conference. and roosevelt follows suit goes up there for that big, big meeting. then he comes to the u.s. and spends a couple of weeks at the white house during which he goes to goes to harvard and gives an incredibly important speech where he proposes that the residents of the united kingdom and people of the united states have joint common citizen ship. yeah. your jaws i see jaws. you can resume your natural. and it's it's fascinating and it's. the time when franklin roosevelt

says to winston churchill, i'm going to hyde, if you want to stay the white house and work, you can. but leaving and. sure enough, winston churchill stays in the white house meetings has appointments and then leaves and goes to hyde park to. say goodbye to to the president. that is all prelude to this. and that is that once franklin roosevelt and winston churchill sat down with joseph stalin the first time was at the toronto conference in late november. of 1943. what i see happening is that as winston churchill tried to

roosevelt and roosevelt is now wooing. and at one point during conference rose about thinks that he's not cutting through. getting through to stalin and churchill walks into the room and roosevelt says. you might get a little disturbed about what i'm going to say. churchill you know it's going to say what you're going to say. and roosevelt felt deliberately to try to curry favor with stalin begins to make of churchill. yeah. he got up on the wrong side of the bed today you can tell.

ha ha you know he's not himself. ha ha. making jokes about churchill. and at that point i would argue that churchill himself begins to wonder what is the relationship that i have with the president of the united states. and that's at the very end, as i say, of 43. going into 1944. churchill once at a meeting with roosevelt and roosevelt keeps him at a distance won't make a decision, won't give a date. finally you get into the summer. and they have the second quebec conference up in canada and churchill does come to the united states.

but it's a secret visit. it not released to the world until he is back in london. and at that time roosevelt was so fixated on running for his fourth term that he did not want any of editorialists commentate tours in the media, in journalism to say that he was running on the coattails of the popular winston churchill. no, he wanted to run on his own and alone. and i will end this note. when franklin roosevelt did die in april of 45. winston churchill did not come to the funeral. a plane to carry him across the

atlantic was waiting at an airport. and at the last minute, he made the decision that he would not come. it's interpreted a number of different ways. one would be that for security, safety reasons, it was too hazardous. i think you could look at it in a number different lights. but i am sure and i hope the book makes this clear that over time the relation ship did change and i think all of us almost need to be aware of that. i found the parts about fdr and stalin in the book revealing about we always hear about 4142, fdr and churchill, the chummy and the stories are great for history, but the relationship was complicated but what your book also is that while

churchill had a frayed relationship toward the end with franklin roosevelt churchill, after he leaves power comes back to power years later and, he really encounters that person he met years before dwight eisenhower. and once again, the white house stays in the same room he stayed in when he was with fdr. help understand churchill's with eisenhower. why it's important and how it shaped the cold war. it's important for a number of reasons. one is that of course eisenhower had been based primarily london during, the second world war. of course, he moved around. good deal. but but he got to know churchill very, very well.

but it's a different relationship when you have a prime minister and a military leader versus a prime minister and the president of the united. and eisenhower right from the very beginning, churchill went out of way to come to right after the election and eisenhower had not even been inaugurated. and he's having meetings with him. and what churchill is trying to do at that time is work out a path. what would you say, less intense, cold war. so you've gone during the four days. he's the warrior and, the war lord, and into the fifties.

he's trying to become the peacemaker and the word that i used early on summit of the united states. he begins to use that word for a meeting among the three leading power of the u.s., the united kingdom and the soviet union. and he thinks thinks possibly in a misguided odd way. but i'm just reporting not not trying to editorialize at all. he thinks that can sit down with the two leaders and hammer out some agreement that would reduce the tensions of the cold war. and he keeps pushing eisenhower to have this summit of the big

three. and never relents while churchill is the prime minister. but what to became fascinating and going through all the records of their relationship was how churchill rose in eisenhower admiration. not only when he was the prime minister second time. and remember is important. he's the preeminent twice and longer than two term president can. but when when churchill ultimately resigns the prime ministership ministership, eisenhower goes out into the rose garden, into the just

outside the white house and gives a very moving, very personal statement. congratulate him saying he history will be kind to and things of that nature and even even the newspapers said how rare it was for a president to come and to speak so movingly about another figure and he returned to churchill returned. in 1959. so he is no longer prime minister. he still in the house of commons and eisenhower decides he's going to clear his schedule for several days and. take winston churchill around,

talk him, visit with him, have events, him and, eisenhower him to his farm and gettysburg. and they go around in a golf cart. you'd expect that eisenhower or a golf cart. and they visit all the sites and churchill in the helicopter point out to eisenhower now this is where pickett's charge was during the during the civil war and this is where such and such. he was a great student. churchill was a great student of the u.s. civil war and. what i found, which thought was a interesting and also in way significant at the at the eisenhower library out in abilene, kansas was a file very thin file but it said tuck this

away in, sir. winston's spot. and it the president of, the united states state mundt had churchill passed away while eisenhower still president. he wanted to be on the record. he wanted a very strong statement to be made. his feelings and regard for churchill. so that it becomes a a very human of two war leaders and. they did not agree on some fundamental aspects of war. in fact, in the book i show that churchill deleted some sections

of the final volume that critical of eisenhower. hmm. so when you when talk about history is it political. it certainly was is political because the prime minister did not want to have in memoir of the war any statements that critical of the new president of the united states. that's a great part of the book. churchill, of course, wins the nobel prize for literature and is a world class. but he deletes all these parts of the book are dismissive of eisenhower because he wants to have that relationship. if you ever get a chance to go to gettysburg to eisenhower's from there they still have the golf cart that churchill went around with churchill. what's interesting is that churchill comes in 59 to see eisenhower. but this book, mr. churchill in

the white house is also about the lingering influence. churchill over the white house and the american presidents. see if you could just reflect for a moment about how president john f kennedy, elected in 1960, as admired churchill. perhaps unlike his father, and so did lyndon baines johnson after jfk. it's very interesting. certainly john kennedy, whose father was known as a great admirer of winston churchill, was the ambassador to the court. saint james. the somewhat catty remark attributed to randolph churchill never verified was that. he thought daffodils were yellow until he saw the back of joe

kennedy. i'll let you all absorb that. but john john f saw a churchill as someone that he he admired for a number of reasons. political? yes. a writer. yes. orator. yes. and shortly after, john was inaugurated, he learned and that churchill was cruising in the in the caribbean on. i can't make this stop. aristotle onassis yacht. fill in the rest of that sentence and. he he learns that the the ship

has docked in new york and gets on the phone and says, i will send my plane and i would love to have mr. churchill come to the white. for a few days. and we will just talk. and churchill's assistant made the decision that that would not happen. and the reason that he he was frail. and he did not want all of the attention would be focused on. the visit to show in that condition. if and i think it was probably a smart decision on his part. so they don't meet but.

about five or six months before kennedy is assessed unaided. he confers honor, citizenship on winston churchill. first time in american that honorary has been granted to someone from another country and he gives this tremendous speech and it's all glowing and that and in the book it struck me he says he kennedy churchill, mo mobile lives the english language age and sent it into battle. oh, isn't that a great. that's a great phrase.

well, the person who wrote that phrase was the cbs journalist broadcaster edward r murrow for the anniversary of his birthday. murrow said probably the most important figure on the world stage is winston churchill. he mobilized the english language and sent it into battle. and here's the irony, edward murrow had left cbs john had hired him to be the head of the information u.s. information agency. edward r murrow, sitting in the audience. when kennedy read the speech, granting churchill honorary

citizenship. that's a wonderful story. it's funny. i don't think i've ever told you this. sitting on my desk at cbs, an old record of edward r murrow narrating winston speeches that was a big seller decades ago. it should be still, if want to ask a question of professor small, we'll begin the q&a in just a second here. smoot before we get to the questions from the audience, any reflections about the house in the presidency and churchill saw at churchill, of course, had an american mother. he had an affection for united states, but in particular your book shows he had a appreciate in for the power of the president. see he did. and. one of the excuse me one of the points i tried to make is winston churchill in the 1930s

was this almost a singular figure about the dangers from nazi germany? a lot people made fun of them, said he, going too far. he he warned the world about the threat from totalitarianism at the time that he recognized the importance the power of the united states. he knew that the british empire in decline that its best days were probably over and wanted to make sure that the united kingdom and united states remain

closely tied because of this positive. the warning about nazi germany. and later course the fulton, missouri of 1946 about the threat of the so the soviet union the descent of the iron. you all know that. but positively he saw america as this new colossus on the world stage. and he saw presidency itself as so important and significant in shaping the force of democracy, of freedom of western and so the president the presidency and the in the presidency were

important. him and his to the white house allowed him to emphasize the relationship, the relationship to the point of common citizenship. as i as i mentioned. and it was it's an interesting dynamic. the united kingdom is going down and the u.s. is going up. he is going up as a world statesman at same time that franklin roosevelt is declining. isn't that interesting? so on a human level, things happening on a international level. things things are happening. and i think it it's a tribute to him that someone who was so steeped in history and he was a

point i make is that he was steeped in history and and thought about it while franklin roosevelt largely thought about the future he was looking ahead the united nations. this was really important to him but churchill is steeped in once history to be a positive force sees america as this powerful positive force and wants to come to 1600 pencil brain avenue to be sure that, his viewpoint is heard. and he did. powerful. let's take some questions from the audience. oh, do we need churchill now? one thing you said perplexed me. i was born in the 1940s. churchill and fdr, great heroes that i grew up with this

business about the soviet. churchill was a conservative. yeah. and commun for that. they were allergic to it. whereas fascism and the conservatives britain not so much. so where did. and of course, churchill. stalin and knew all the things that he had done. why did he think that. why was there an effort at rapprochement. you're saying after the war. yeah. yes. he knew. and actually both roosevelt and really that the promises stalin had made at yalta in february of 45. right. they were promises and. they realized that in in march and then, of course, roosevelt is dead in april. but he churchill and again,

possibly in in not his greatest moment thought that he could influence what what stalin was doing, what he might do, what would happen. he was he was frightened by the hydrogen. churchill was. okay. and of course, you had the atomic bomb and then the hydrogen was much more powerful, right? and churchill was very aware of that, so that his time, his second term, as minister in the international realm, he is trying trying as hard as he can to reduce those tensions and quite frankly, you know, i said

the other that if you had a way of measuring self comfort winston, churchill would have been off the charts. he he thought that he could pull rabbits out of non-existent hats and i think it was it could have been a delusion on his part but he thought that maybe there was a way of doing it and. of course, stalin dies. thank god. thank. well, we won't we won't break into that equation. but it's a situation where he's trying to do something. it didn't work out. thank you. thank you. thank you very much.

thank you very for your talk in your book. it sounds really interesting. thank you. so my question is, all of these sort of unusual actions that churchill at the white house, you know, going about naked, walking in his in his dressing gown, wandering the halls, overstaying his visit. is this unique to the white house or did he do something as any other official visit that he made to other countries or in a positive plea also in his own house? but are we aware of anything official where kind of acted this way elsewhere or is it just with us but that's maybe that's second book how do how how did he comport himself when he went moscow to visit stalin which he did it from that i know he was

indeed the correct that we think he was. i read not terribly long ago that he loved to listen to marching music and would march around checkers checkers, you know, flamboyantly. it i think that's who he was. i mean he, this is not revealing anything it's in the book there's this i think picture in the book. i mean, he his siren suit outside the white house. okay. to show off stylish you know haberdashery or whatever word we'd use. he was he was and a creature of so many different facets. i haven't mentioned his if you

ever see is a painting of his he was a remarkable painter and someone up behind him once and said oh that's a that's a beautiful. and he turned and says genius has many outlets. i don't. thank you. thank you. the british ambassador in washington, karen pierce, has an original painting in her residence. it's very special. yeah. thank you. the future of india must've been a point of tension. britain and america at this point. did that figure in the relationship of churchill and roosevelt? it did. it did. and roosevelt was very strongly anti. and would make fun of

churchill's embrace. continuing enduring of the british empire. and at one one of his visits someone brought up. the indian question and it's in the the the back and forth and he threw it back the person and said now are you talking about the indian is so far away or are you talking about the indians who are here in america and they're contemporary condition. so he was he was well of the criticism that he was getting from sides in this country.

visibly india and the only way really that can explain it and i'm i'm certainly knowledgeable about all the criticism of churchill today is that he so much a creature of the victorian era and you know he was on the he was the military in india in a number of different places so he saw the empire in action. and in later life just wouldn't let go. you know, the sun never set the british empire. he did not that sun set either. so that you have this situation where. he sees the rise of the u.s. at the same time that he's trying desperately to hold on to the sunshine, the empire. thank you.

thank you. we have time for a couple more. one more question. according to brad and then what? you can come up and ask the when he's signing books, the professor will be professor small will be signing books after. but have one more question here. then we'll have some time for you to get your books on. there's an undercurrent of curiosity, anger that maybe winston churchill set the dieppe raid up to head off a cross-channel invasion. any book you could recommend that would deal with. yeah, you the question. the dieppe raid, which was august of 43. am i right. or is it 42? which was in northern france and was disastrous mostly on canadians were were involved in it and many were killed many

were captured injured. boy, this is going to be a hard one to do in 30 seconds. but what i'm going say is winston churchill was who was slow to embrace the cross-channel operation, meaning d-day, 80 years ago. and he would he would say he was for it. and then things would happen and nothing would happen. okay. in fact in the book, they're numbered places where henry stimson, the secretary of war says the man london is coming and he's going to knife us in the back again on d-day. yeah. i mean, it's. it's very strong, very strong. so that what he was afraid of

was that there would be massive casualties. and that it would be a way what he had faced and endured. the first world war, which was the situation and he was the first lord of the admiralty during the first world war, took a tremendous hit over gallipoli because it was a failure. it was a failure. and he leaves the admiralty and in fact goes to the western front as, a military person, officer and has to climb back into into the high offices of the british government. but he reluctant to sign on the. because out of fear.

but he finally he finally says i do it i will harden i will approve. i will go. and what does winston churchill do? he says to eisenhower i want to be on a ship in the channel on d-day. and dwight goes, you what? you want to be on ship and? finally, the king george, the six intervened and says, if he's going to be the ship, i want to be on the ship, too. and so they decide that winston churchill, who finally had agreed, will not be there on