this is an hour and a half.

[background noises] >> good morning. the subcommittee order. i want to welcome our witnesses to discuss the lessons we can learn from the va effort to modernize technology in the last two years. that va is an organization really half a million people that serves 9 million veterans and their family members using thousands of it systems and has a total budget of roughly $370 billion a year making it second largest agency only surpassed by the dod. the skill of the it systems are

massive present a lot of challenges. the department has repeatedly attempted to address these challenges with the maga megaprojectsthat span years or s and cost billions of dollars. this strategy simply has not worked well. all six of the va multibillion-dollar it projects have stumbled badly or collapse altogether. this should come as no surprise and challenge our witnesses to point to any it projects, anywhere with the budget this large that has been successful. we spent many hours on the subcommittee discussing va three megaprojects are currently racking up and schedule delays. electronic health record modernization, spent nearly $10 million already it would cost more than $37 billion to implement according to the institute for defense analysis. the true cross across va is

higher than that as it does include the enormous additional staffing requirements the loss of productivity. oracle on the cusp of resuming the roll out there is no end in sight. after six years of financial management business transformation has only installed the momentum system a few small corners of the va it has more than doubled to $5.8 billion according to the ida. finally the g.i. bill has missed its original 2024 completion date and his final price tag will likely double as well. not only have these systems on pastor schedules and budgets they are also struggling to live up to the users expectations. however there are signs the va leaders are looking to take different approaches. pull the plug on the system after it pilot went so poorly.

the second supply chain effort has been on indefinite hold since he subcommittee exposes poorly defined objectives for the nine billion dollar lifecycle call assessment. finally secretary and their teams came to their senses before moving forward with the nearly $1 billion human capitol management modernization contract. i am glad to see some of the va resist the contractors expensive promises and the temptation to use major it projects to build their bureaucratic empire megaprojects sound good in theory but in reality they are always overdue, overbudget, that is unacceptable for veterans than taxpayers. at a time when the va has come to us with more than a six billion dollar budget deficit the department literally cannot afford to operate this way anymore. megaprojects are also incompatible with the best practices that took hold in the

software industry more than a decade ago. i am talking agile incremental development small-scale deployment testing by real users and component-based architecture. were going to hear from our panel of independent experts helpfully from her ba witnesses as well. we have also seen encouraging examples when the va succeeded in implementing or solving problems va.gov was riddled bugs closing veterans submissions to disappear and i still question how long it took for the department to tell us everything. but he and his office were able to get to the root of the calls the problems fairly quickly. there is also 18 month ordeal to get the program integrity tool to process claims data correctly. the system is small enough it was eventually able to figure it out.

he and his team recognize the limitations in the large outdated veterans benefit management system and they have been proactively segmenting it and modernizing it an individual parts the larger a project gets the harder it is to manage the less likely it is to deliver useful capability. on the other hand smaller efforts delivered orally and often can survive the technical challenges along the way. as we close out this congress and prepared to transition to a new administration with new va leadership i want to emphasize these lessons learned. we need to build a nimble or va that is more responsive to the veterans needs. i look forward to our witnesses testimonies today to help us do that. with that i yield to ranking member for her opening statement. >> thank you, mr. chairman thank

you so much to our witnesses are being here today over the course of the 118th congress the subcommittee held 20 hearings extent the it modernization efforts of veterans affairs is clear to be mostly programs that were reviewed from suffer from the same issue support requirement developments for contract management and overreliance on contractors to determine what's possible versus what the department identifies as it's needed. i am also concerned the department is taking on too much instead of attempting to modernize everything all at once, they should be thinking strategically delivering one or two successful projects before moving onto the other. i worry this and slit it projects are part of the problem. it seems to me oit's role in many of these projects is not sufficient to keep the project on track from the very beginning causing monumental downstream effects. this lack of involvement

intentional or otherwise contribute to the which in turn leads to significant contract we see in projects like the digital g.i. bill the supply chain modernization. all to realize they are not getting what they need. i also have major issues with the way it is frequently the sacrificial lamb when it comes to needing funding for the mission. while this is not unique to va we cannot allow this to continue more and more veterans become eligible for care benefits, budget constraints require cuts and others. this is the reason the va is operating on the infrastructure will pass the service life in many places. much of the software va uses is obsolete. we hear a lot of talk about inefficiency, fixing the inefficiency starts by ensuring va employees have the best tools

to do their job were charged with fully funding the office of information and technology. point blank v-8 needs to do a better job of ensuring it budget supports va employees i look forward to hearing the witnesses testimony. before i yield there's a few people who enforce them saying farewell to the submit the last here one of my favorite chairman and the republicans has been excellent. he has been with the subcommittee since its inception has been a valuable partner in our efforts to ensure va employees have modern tools to provide world-class care and benefit settings. the insight will be missed and i wish him the best of luck in his next chapter. also with a changing

administration assistant secretary i know you i have not always seen eye to eye i've appreciated your hard work over the past three years. i would also like to save the best for last which is wishing chairman well as this will be his last hearing with the subcommittee there are few places in this body as bipartisan as the subcommittee we have been on i think the chairman for being one of those people in working with me so openly pretty wish you the best. thank you so much and i yield back. >> thank you very much for those kind words and appreciation from everybody. i will now introduce the witnesses on a first panel. ms. harris is a director of acquisition management of the government accountability office. executive director of the tech center at georgetown university

rate ms. oberman previously served u.s. digital service and finally is the nonresident senior fellow for congressional modernization with the foundation for american innovation. previously served senior technology advisor at gsa top technology rolls in the house of representatives. if you all could please rise and raise your right hands please. >> you solemnly swear under penalty of perjury that the testimony about two provides a truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? thank you let the record reflect all the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. ms. harris you are not recognized for five minutes to deliver opening statement on behalf of gal. thank you. mr. chairman, ranking member mccormick and members of the subcommittee p thank you for inviting us to testify today on va it modernization challenges.

i also want to take a moment to thank your outstanding committee staff and best wishes as well. as requested briefly summarize artwork of the departments effort to acquire and manage it as well as her work on critical factors leading to outcomes. as you know it's crucial to va effectively serve our nation veterans the department investment id is substantial. over the past two years va has products and services. modernization effort recent reports to improve the acquisition and management. while va has concurred, have been implemented thus far these recommendations address healthcare, financial management

systems, it governance and it procurement. for example va has long-standing challenges in its efforts to avoid ip solutions into critical areas. health information system as well as its financial acquisition management. after three unsuccessful sense of t2000 one in 2017, modernist and forth e hrm. however in 2023 further deployment instead of prioritizingmake improvements ay site about 79% of users struggle strongly disagree quality care. 2023 report 10 recommendations and areas for user satisfaction, and change management. similarly in 2016 va established initiatives its third attempt to release a financial acquisition

with one integrated system. 2021 we reported full implementation of the new system is not expected until 2027 and a 10 year lifecycle cost nearly three billion dollars as of juln was moved to 2030 lifecycle costs escalated to $7.7 billion. two reports made a total of three recommendations estimate estimatingits effort to manage. va implements 13 recommendations, along with the other seven we made in the areas of it governance, licenses and cloud computing, the department will be in a stronger position to course correct major it acquisitions under way. now, to my final point va should consider all available opportunities to ensure it investments acquired in the most effective manner possible. we previously reported on nine critical factors that have led

to successful it acquisitions across the federal government. these factors include ensuring end-users and stakeholders involved acquirement and testing system functionality government and contractors are stable. these are common sense for there be therealso easier said than d. all too often we found the absence for the partial implementation of them be that route because of cost schedule and performance issues on troubled or failed it programs. another set of leading practices applicable here is the use of development complex it acquisitions. companies use this approach to rapidly develop complex it products that are relevant in response to the critical needs. essentially breaks large monolithic it smaller pieces delivering system functionality. the critical factors leading practices i mentioned as a basis

for many of our current recommendations help improve federal it management as such va can rely to achieve successful it acquisitions. moving forward into the two areas i noted to be critical for va to fully implement recommendation doing so will position the department to more effectively deliver the system and it operations we need. that concludes my statement of four to address your questions. >> thank you very much ms. harris. the written statement of ms. harris will be entered into the hearing record. you are not recognized for five minutes to deliver your opening statement on behalf of the center. >> thank you chair rosendale, ranking member and distinguished members. thank you for the opportunity to testify today it is my honor to share insights from my perspective is executive execute director of social impact at georgetown university. along with my past experience senior pulsing delivery roles

the white house office of science and technology policy in the domestic. for more than a decade the rec center's led projects in a positively impact tuna 62 million people across the united states working alongside government to build a future with more opportunity and economic mobility for all. we are in the valleys of traditional home at georgetown university, we are eight network catalyst, the research of an advocate for in the modern age and training ground for tomorrow's innovators. celtic modernization essential to our work. the systems that veterans with l rely on to connect benefits adequate childcare senior seem to utilize healthcare must be robust adaptive and designed with user needs in mind yet federal technology projects often fall short. plagued by rigid approaches that prioritize process over outcomes for these failures diminish public trust, waste taxpayer money at frustrate agency front-line workers, prevent people from accessing services when they need in the most. when agencies attempt to

modernize they often purchase software treating it like any other commodity. let computers or cars. one time purchases that simply work upon acquisition. but software must continuously evolve to keep up with changing policies, security demands and customer needs technology modernization is a continual process of addressing unmet needs, not the one time effort. too often federal modernization projects are building silo's scope to broadly outsource to vendors who require high cost multiyear contracts. those contracts are than often overseen by agency project managers who may not be in making it more challenging in identifying technical fixes on projects go off track. the goodness is some agencies can and have shifted from the sc project management level to wit what we call a product model empowers internal agency teams with a full ownership of product

development avoids the one-size-fits-all solutions in favor of modular development that meets the needs of real people. the product model championed by my friend and colleague starts with a small nimble team with the people who use the services to deeply understand the needs and the service delivery challenges software. by identifying high-risk elements of early is whether integration will actually funked off function effectively the product team contest and address critical components of the product before investing significant. a recent example of the product model interaction is the development of the direct fire tool for the internal revenue service. the 2024 pilot ultimately serve for the 140,000 people 90% of users writing the tool is excellent or above average. to achieve this the irs and power their internal team with the right expertise from the limited scope and eligibility, develop the tool of the research

tested with small number of users. the first test was just one person did not work, tested again, user tested again and then tested further. this process save users time, money resulted in extremely high rates of inspection. what's more the operational cost of the irs to develop test and launch direct files including customer service. the patient were $2.4 million. partly because the u.s. service team must've point at no cost. simply put existing product development teams. with his personal barriers. this streamlines processes, reduces administrative burden paves the way for more successful product appointment. to ensure federal agencies including the department of veterans affairs fully realize the benefits of the product model for postwar. perhaps the most important

recommendations to ensure the agencies streamline hiring processes to efficiently recruit onboard digital talent implement the product model back by flexible monthly your investments support of people centered approach with additional services. by adopting these this recommenn for agents like the va are full, resources and flexibility needed to deliver modern services. parents, veterans and more that meet the evolving needs of the american people and technology barriers. >> thank you very much ms. over her statement will be entered into the hearing record. you are now recognized for five minutes schedule of your opening statement on behalf of the foundation for american innovation. >> thank you chairman rosendale, ranking member and members of the subcommittee. thank you for the opportunity to testify this morning. as mentioned i'm with the

foundation for american innovation previously spent considerable time here at the house and even in 1995 modernize a wide range of legacy dysfunctional software. i have extensive experience in that technology modernization i am not a va it health expert. so let me delineate that. when we think about technology at the va, it should empower the staff provide better care without limiting the ability of doctors and medical professionals to problem solve. i want to briefly focus on three issues that i think would improve outcomes at va, va leadership challenges, improving

the electronic health record implementation and options to better address the future challenges and financial management and supply chain. i think the next secretary should several organizational for technology organization placed those objectives in each executive's performance plan to help create a more unified focus from va leadership agencywide. an issue they should address it is the tenure of the cia. i think he had the best possible tenure given transitioning from an important private sector career with conflicts of interest to manage et cetera his three year term is about as long as that is going to be. the next administration should

should take steps to the cio has a tenure of at least five years for a term appointment or some other process. to accomplish that. when you look at the record of the electronic health modernization project, it would appear to me as an outside observer, that the process the sixth implementation in chicago was apparently the first one with the community care center that process of moving patients from a care center to clinical care and back again had been worked out on the legacy software but was an issue in the implementation to avoid repeated discovery is this a project is

implemented across the va. i would recommend the deployment plan how to operationalize the functionality to discover what it is across all of the centers that fact there's 130 instances of the legacy system divergence across the facilities you cannot discover that one day at a time. the methods previously discussed are appropriate to do that. but, a key milestone is reaching a point where all of that is running successfully and at least one facility. it's not a hypothetical it is not pretty powerpoint slides. you know, looking at the supply chain issue briefly it sounds

like in these repeated failures these projects one thing i would note is that the problem family negative that causes a last train leave the station phenomena every capability every complexity of this is their one chance in 10 or 20 years to get their requirements into the system. that has to be fought with the more agile and incremental approach and agree the supply chain initiative is going to be broken down to seven -- 10 pieces i think is good progress. but, the committee should ensure that the first piece is actually implemented right and monolithic approach i would conclude my remarks and look forward to your

questions. >> very good, thank you so much the written statement will be entered into the hearing record so that we have the full statement. we are now going to proceed to questioning. i will recognize myself. >> okay. morning. can you think of a multibillion-dollar it project that a federal agency has ever completed on time and on budget or completed at all? [inaudible] >> heads up this is going to be a question i will not say i did comprehensive research across the actually fine. it's interesting i think it reinforces the point you made your opening remarks and my fellow testimony given here

today who the cloud migration the department of defense called 8.9 billion tenure contract to migrate security for the five think the reason this action reinforces that we are talking about is twofold. one is cloud the structure is structure isactually infrastrucs not his specific user needs. so, that is been successful implementation it's interesting because the way they rolled that out initially starting in may of 2020 was rolled out to 11000 users a start. now that the agency that might be like a large ultimate goal is to serve three-point to million people, that starting point that they didn't follow that cattle of testing for the small group . types of cloud migrations which

i believe provide things like data storage, access to different development tools in different crm management. i was unable to find a single large scale it project along the lines of what you're describing with the va that has been successful on time or on budget. thank you. can you think of one? i cannot mr. chairman. >> thank you very much for ms. harris what is it about the it megaprojects that makes them so risky and prone to failure? >> when you take that wonderful monolithic approach, or develop the farmers in the beginning then you're designing and developing the system. once you deploy five -- seven yourself, that's when you realize it's not going to meet your mission need so you have already sunk in at that point hundreds of millions possibly billions of dollars to set up to fail.

very good. you project. agency pass the buck to contractors what are some examples of the product model in project to model so the general public can understand the difference in over talking about? >> absolutely. i do think the examples you provided of some of these systems are very good examples of the project model with the challenges are with that approach. i'm going to give a couple positive examples of the project model i mention the irs direct to file for quick's first time we heard them mentioned in a favorable manner. [it was actually quite effective. you want to point to another project i think is another

component of why this type of approach to be quite useful which was the covid test.org. the website launched in the midst of the covid pandemic. as you all recall, covid test were extremely difficult to find at the time. covid test.orc was developed jointly by u.s. digital service, hhs and the u.s. postal service for they develop this tool in three weeks they use existing infrastructure there are a few key components that went into why this program was so successful. first about they designed with users in mind in the application on my slightly as possible they did not try to pile on data collection. they do not try to do a 50 proofing. they basically made a simple form it took a few minutes to fill out. on the backend is they work with vendors who had demonstrated success in handling a high load input while the front end was very simple that backend was

intentionally designed to handle high volumes of application indeed on the first day of million people applied the system was able to bear that load. i think that combination of thoughtful design, working successfully with vendors having product vision owned by the implementers is what made the project so useful. >> very good, very good. i'm going to yield back now and recognize representative kennedy thank you for joining us. >> thank you. thank you off your testimony thank you for your service to our country. this harris, and your testimony you talked a bit about the va budget. do you feel the budget is sufficient to support that va's it needs? ultimately the modernization efforts? >> well scrubbed the full budget to give you that full responses. but, when i can say, look at these critical success factors

the large-scale it acquisitions one they have in common having programs for sufficient funding is very important for these programs to have that. and so i do think of that, in combination with other tools like having a working capitol with money this kid used over multiple years that his or her discretion is very important to give them the flexibility. but, at the same time accountability is critically important for blessing what is for agencies to have slush funds. with open recommendations to va to improve their cost and schedule estimating capability so that when they come out with these programs like these examples wait with the cost estimates to be reliable and comprehensive and credible trade that is critically important we have this open recommendations to improve that. so that when they do come out with a budget request, the underlying programs have

reliable estimates behind them to back it up for. >> thank you. as far as the va id acquisition efforts go, what are the biggest steps the va can take to improve? >> and breaking down these larger programs into the smaller more manageable pieces is a huge thing. that will definitely set them up for success. also, i agree with my panels having end-users involved in that process early and often, especially for testing is vital. we have seen success cases were agencies have literally built test labs they bring in the users and are working on prototypes they are testing in real time early and often presents also a great predictor of success. >> thank you. to your knowledge is there a single office official responsible for tracking open recommendation from gao or oig

related to the va it? >> i'm not aware of that. i'm not sure. >> you can give be beneficial to have a single entity? what site do think though a single point of accountability would greatly improve va's track record involved in the department should you say? >> don't have to take that back for the record i'm not quite sure where it would fall. certainly someone who has direct reporting lines to the secretary secretary half financial backing patients get implemented patient implemented effectively and efficiently. >> thank you. in regard to the indicated risks listed with the lack's biggest t

weaknesses on both the lack of compliance? what would the main thing for the cia to approve investment review and approve all id contracts going to the department conveys her most recent work in that area is roughly 39% of the it contractor going under the radar. so he was not in the position to even be aware of those contracts automated processes that ensure those contracts at his desk first so we can review it and make a determination whether or not it open recommendation to that progress as far as the va addressing what is your suggestion? we have 20 open recommendations.

should expedia slowly in regard to eye what yields. i will come back. thank you very much. what the va megaprojects stuck in the project model what problems is that create? >> urgently. based on my experience the white house working on implementation and the work we do the key problem is what is meant indicated by the panelists which is this model i've started by trying to project over very expensive timelines with the ultimate end product is fit all of its functionality, gathering those requirements, hand them off to a vendor and then hoping five -- 10 years down the line what is implemented or provided backup it is in fact provided back actually works. i think is a couple fundamental challenges with that.

one, you think tenure >> cell phones how much have they changed in just 10 years how much user needs have changed over time? the fundamental approach of this megaproject is destined to fail or even if a vendor perfectly implements all of the requirements listed and it is deployed 10 years later it's almost certainly not. i do want to emphasize i appreciate extensive expertise in this space. i do think a key component of making the va successful technical pieces of this but having this internal capacity, product development teams to oversee these projects and there is a single owner or a team well versed in agency missions and goals in the modern agile processes that only product vision and manage vendors on a much faster and more modular timeline is really a key to success to try to solve these problems.

>> very good. ms. harris, are the mentor maga projects inherently incompatible some of your best practices? what i am trying to find out where do we have conflicts coming in? with your recommended best practices in the megaprojects the way they are developing them. >> they are entirely in conflict with the best practice and what we have seen in public space in the private sector we want these larger projects to be broken down into smaller pieces a large part of that is the lack of having users the end-users involved in that process early and often. they are generating requirements, prioritizing those requirements the end-users are involved in that. but also the prioritize is incredibly important because again the last thing one for on their wish list of items. as long as it is prioritized

then that is when agencies are able to break them out these large projects and deliver. >> very good. the va knows how to design it systems in a modular way. it is not a technical problem anymore what are the cultural and managerial obstacles preventing them from doing it more often? >> there are two things mr. chairman. one, legacy project that have been running to update how the deals legacy projects. if you will a trust issue from my outside impression projects

have not delivered in a timely fashion there is the tendency to load everything in. >> when you say the trust issue? write that down a little bit from the people that are responsible for developing. >> from the end users from the employees too. >> we are not going to get another delivery for an extended period of time so let's go ahead and add everything but all of our requests on right now. >> is a little bit of burn out now we are on the fourth try? why should i really participate this is probably going to fail as well. so why do i need to get involved? that is that management and culture challenge we will use many we are going to build this

and they will be user input. everyone needs to take it and secondly the phrase from a colleague minimum viable product is a shorthand way of saying just enough for it to be useful. get into people's hand iterate they need to do that enough people believe is going to work. they have to build that trust. >> very good. thank you very much i now yield back to representative kinsey. >> thank you chairman for it msk you. in her opening we are concerned of the business led efforts. gao and any evaluation? or do you have in the opinion how this organization is versus oit lead? >> i can talk across the federal government i've seen a mix of arrangements port cio lead.

i have seen moderate success in both areas. i think the critical key is for both to work in partnership in close collaboration. those requirements are being fleshed out appropriately. there is adequate engagement with stakeholders and that's really the key rather than who is leading the effort. >> do you think oit should have a bigger or a different role in the modernization effort? >> oit should be involved in an effort they're involved in the acquisition phases so that they understand and get end users for we are even talking about contracts. that requirements are adequately

defined. oit understands or has a better understanding of what best practices are so they should be involved in that process to be able to lead those discussions effectively. >> thank you. in your testimony, you identified failing to conduct deep user research. as a risk to successful technology modernization but i with comprehensive requirements development, how do you think an agency could or should improve upon this? >> i think you're hearing a lot of agreement on the need for user research. it has to be in combination start small but that minimum viable product tested with those users and iterate. there's a hidden benefit to this as well or one is not emphasized yet this will make for a more

successful longer-term development also very early services that something is not viable. you can stop projects that are not going to work before they get billions of dollars in. the end users of the product the people receiving the services that the agency staff. the agency staff as i mentioned how insanely frustrating it must be for people trying to serve veterans to have to deal with the software over and over and over again repeated trainings on successful implementation getting in the way of services they are trying to provide. i cannot imagine everyone is not frustrated the value of starting small is that the implementations are being unsuccessful on the end users as well. >> thank you. you also indicate your thoughts on the budgeting and appropriations process. and how they should be changed

can you expand on that? what sure. i honestly think you're going here for me repeatedly is how important it is to have digital service expertise in the government. i think for two key reasons. as mentioned how valuable it would be to have oit involved if they do not have staff capacity with the expertise is going be very difficult to be actively involved in the number of contracts the va manages it should be working on. i think another thing that has also been mentioned is a flexible multiyear funding to ensure ses developed over time they are not cultured or slow down by your year-to-year money challenges. i think those of the two key things. i think the other is you are going to have a much more consistent spend over time as opposed to getting huge spikes around the large projects where

wethink you're making a one-time investment there's a big dump of money to start it doesn't work there's another dump of money so over time we believe the product model approach is more cost-effective for the agencies as well. >> very good thank you. you've work with a lot of federal agencies. which ones do this so well? what kinds of cultures and management structures do you have? >> as you mentioned i work with the u.s. digital service. i think is find the best example i can think of. anything the reason for that is, a lot of agencies to have the internal capacity and often times what we would see his teams get called in a crisis point hit. were seeing a growing number of digital service teams involved

is further along. enough digital service capacity to do these things on their own without having to rely on the external support. the interesting thing not only do they have a lot of very good in deep internal expertise they also have a large customer experience office. we have seen those two things in combination the digital service engineering expertise plus customer engagement experience to be pretty potent model. >> more like the private sector does. >> exactly. exactly. >> and focus on customer service. very good, very good. how do agencies get in trouble when they bite commercial off the shelf software as the va has done any financial systems. >> it's interesting again like a little bit of a broken record here if you start with end users

from the beginning it's entirely possible a system could work. but you have to be very careful with their offering and doesn't fit with what you're trying to sell for? there are some downsides regardless it really only works the agency is capable to meet the system and a lot of the systems you end up paying for functionalities you do not need you are buying the whole package as opposed to have a customized response. i do think generally speaking you do not want to be absolute about anything there are certainly cases were having a cost system to solve her problems however if you are dealing with what a lot of agencies deal with user base not common in the private sector are not met by private sector

technology that's with the product model becomes very helpful you have the internal expert who can guide a number of different vendors towards meeting the actual and needs. if this any customization at all. the other challenge is a lot of the contracts mean you do not necessarily have access to the code so you cannot modernizing yourself for even if it's purpose at the time of acquisition three -- five down the road you are stuck. >> thank you. do you think the electronic health record modernization program reflects an agile incremental or modular approach? because i'm not sure it reflects any of those. i think the challenge is how to create an implementable approach. we can touch back on one of your statements find the comments in your opening statement mr. term underinvestment and

infrastructure we talk about modular approach. but the plumbing or the architecture of these different pieces can be solved easily the door frames are a standard size fight another door a different door. where they are with this system but the electronic health modernization system, can they fully validate the requirements with small groups of users a test lab in my mind they've got all the functionality implemented once which mean the other centers can come and look at it and say this is what we are going to go do and we are not going to mess around every time we come to another center and say we need to change this

because i like vanilla instead of chocolate ice cream. they have done enough exploration and validation in the real world, this really works we can roll it out rapidly to the remaining centers. >> it makes sense as a matter fact i am sure you all could go back to statements i made going back as long as three years ago. we want to have a fully functional system at one facility before we start rolling it out on others. i have used my time you are all finished with this? this panel is excused from the witness table i want to thank you all so much for coming in today and taking the time to answer questions for the committee and going ahead and switch out to the next panel. i want to introduce the next panel as everyone is switching up so we can utilize this time

as efficiently as possible. i would like to now welcome the witnesses on our second panel is stable as we are doing the changes. first for the veterans affairs assistant secretary for secretary forinformation technof information officer good to see you again with us. we have mr. robert the benefits and memorials portfolio director in waters the health portfolio director the office of information and technology. once we are all situated just like every meeting we have had acute seated never going to ask you to stand back up again please raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear under penalty of perjury the testimony your vow to provide is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? thank you i will let the record reflect all witnesses have answered in the affirmative.

you are now recognized for five minutes to deliver your opening statement i understand you have a little bit of extra time? >> a little longer not that much longer for treatment rosendale ranking member mccormick distinction with subcommittee think for the opportunity to testify this critical mission are critical for world-class it organizations are for the critical work at the department of veterans affairs. i'm accompanied by tomb two executivedirectors and i tey waters health portfolio benefits memorials services portfolio. over the past three years has transition from a traditional it approach to a modern organization patterned after high tech product developed practices this model aligns with our responsibility in delivering a broad range of products and services to stakeholders and veterans. while we have made much progress in much work remains to be done the ongoing support of congress will be essential in advance of the transformation.

driven by her vision let approach clear execution roadmaps oit sets reliability standard of at least 99.9% across all critical systems and services. we have also made significant steps towards quitting his flatter organization structure empowering teams to take ownership of their work. this transformation fosters an agile environment allows for more efficient resource allocation improves our responsiveness to stakeholders thereby enhancing the overall veterans experience. additionally oit is enhanced focus and transparency and spending helping to clear 12 and a list of prioritization of it investments. this aligns to improve management and oversight of it resources. these efforts insure every dollar spent at benefits veterans through improve services and support systems. in the past three years to made significant technical strides in our major it programs and projects greatly enhancing the services we provide veterans through focused efforts in cyber

security, claims processing, visual expense, electronic health records, financial management and benefits. the most critical technical priorities cybersecurity. we have a reit focused merely executing as a policy compliance exercise to a risk-based approach we've embraced strategy achieving over 95% in the multifactor authentication encryption in transit. a cornerstone and streamline processing for veterans in 2024 alone gave a processing 90% of the claims within the established timelines showcasing our commitment to creating a user centric platform that empowers veterans. to our efforts to improve the veterans digital experience oit has successfully launch the va health benefits mobile application downloaded 2.8 million times is actively used by one point to million veterans each month. we have supported millions of

monthly goods of the va.gov ensuring veterans and customers receive the same information regardless of how and where they interact with the va. the initiative is undergone a thorough reset since early 2023 focusing on user feedback into the systems design. we are planning a restart of deployment efforts in 2025 ensuring our electronic health record system meets the needs of our veterans in the va staff. has a modernized financial management processes across the va enhancing our ability to manage resources effectively. as of november 2024 we have successfully completed multiple phases of the initiative resulting in a more agile financial management system. our work on the bill has resulted in technical advancements that ensure timely and accurate delivery of payments and benefits of information. this initiative exemplifies our commitment to innovation and reliability in delivering

essential services. while we celebrate the success of its challenges lie ahead as we continue our modernization efforts. enhancing the technical skills of the workforce is vital in adapting to evolving cyber security threats. oit must navigate the complexities of modernizing supply chain and hr systems. our efforts in modernizing the supply chain management systems have made slow progress. we are committed to leveraging a more deliberate incremental approach. likewise hr modernization need sustained investment be on the current implementation. the enterprise human capitol management modernization efforts enhance the employee and user experience while ensuring information transparency. continued investment in it initiatives is essential to building progress we've made over the past years. these initiatives are crucial to fulfilling our mission.

being relentlessly focused and people granted greatest assets and we've made great strides with the worst must continue be on next administration and ranking members members of committee think you for the opportunity to be here in order to become this organization in the federal government continues. >> statement of will be put into the hearing record and i will now recognize the next person.

>> the fiscal year of 2024 budget. >> the budget is going to severely curtail in the departments modernization efforts. we believe that next year's levels to my think you for the question and i do not an attempt about in the past the budget is down significant amount. in 2024, even a flat budget in this environment of the cybersecurity threat. in the it's administration services are up 5 percent much of that pay increase in

headcount essentially and modernization efforts down. when critical area is the info structure readiness program. and that is the rollout. these new network infrastructures. the program is down 63 percent. across-the-board and as we are focused on what we have in place enough critical program so it's a very critical challenge. this probably right here. >> one of the short-term impact of this. >> the positive front we really focusing on edge execution and figuring out how to make it work.

this a few things that i would call out, we have a 20 percent increase in cybersecurity investments. and i firmly believe in the architecture and it's an extensive operation and this is not loan be put out a roadmap cover his of a map that they asked us but the entire deployment. also very difficult decisions about which programs to tested up. in the number of people that we need to actually support the folks in actually coming from a legacy of very good customer support pretty our users in the field is very good. and worry those numbers will come down as we are spread more

thinly. >> and thank you any of the ability, what would you do to restructure the budget. >> i think that it just needs to be at a higher level i think there's an opportunity to have money go over multiple years however should point out that there's a common theme in his hearing up incremental when he felt big bang development and a lot of folks to the fully agree with that. so it means us none of the budget were larger that we would have super large expenditures would mean that we would have an advocate and an adequate investment across modernizations a broad set of modernizations that we incremental approaches so that can sustain budget that kind of the whole notion followed by an investment on yearly basis, getting us to point where all of the systems are what we call evergreen rejoice during the mental amount

of improvement every year and itself legacy the budget follow that structure as well. >> and i will come back to this. >> thank you. >> 's good to see you again and think you for coming for us the veterans benefits management system in 2013, to digitize the paper base claims process and system was disciplined and for many years been 2022 from you change your strategy and the v bms is notably imprudent could you explain how and why they changed his strategy to dbms. >> and give the question brunt of the work that's been done there and i will pass it to rob lisa program and there's a couple of things for my perspective that i want to highlight first. first things went i came in court but not as a result my effort certainly been a focus on operational excellence. we look at the baton the system

may changes in terms of capability to make sure that it would just not fall over as demand was continuing to increase we've got it to the point where is a highly reliable system. and i think that is a frisky and then the sinking he is just going to this notion of creating a target platform for the modernization we wanted to go and incrementally get their self revenue platform that we want to move everything to biff but you don't do it all at one time and you do incrementally and rob, would you like to get from their. >> sure and think you for the question. in 2022 earlier we point average and avid about was or because it's a large many pieces that need to be tested think on through the fixes the bugs are failed did not make sense to continue model which we had to wait so long to get set out middle to the various strategies and get a faster capabilities in

the field be able to tested visual parts without having to rework we've had an issue number two modular approach that we now take today and were able to work on it smaller modules that make up a whole new able to deploy right now every two weeks with functionality we been very ready agile release working to make sure functionality. >> very good and thank you so much in 2023, the va was soliciting proposals for 900 million-dollar project for places human capitol management systems that you recently printed this idea considering modernize in place strategy when did you decide against the megaproject and what is your strategy now. >> one think there's two aspects to that, the first is that the posterity environment what were not going to be able to go out for very bad to the entire hr

system platform and i do think moving to new platforms important. the current system snow on premise system and all of the major vendors moving to a cloud -based platform as you know the contract if you look at actually had the notion of minimal viable product and that beasley lease if you create a pilot would do this do the tone make functions this ring we would only pay for the first milestone before we went probably. both physical as it is we will move tomorrow the said we want to find similar to that were doing with that the platform that we want to move to figure out and found base figuratively would take a small functionality from the hr process flow from your created to all 40 have the unity and prayer will a slice of that figure have a move that to modern platform than figure out how to move the other pieces and then the notion of funding as well to be very incremental thing over time and we would come to the future once we

figured out the strategy like this how much we would need each year to have that continuous modernization. >> very good and thank you and earlier this year, the famous having another project 63 supply chain systems the customer $9 billion what did you decide not to move forward with this project can help as a strategy better tillis the improvements of that. >> and you so early on, as you mentioned i believe is a target environment there because swing used by the dod, and also felt that sharing catalogs of inventory omens would be a good kind of a synergy across those two organizations. i think we lacked a clear understanding of what gaps and systems are today from a user perspective and what a middle approach might look like to proving our supply chains approach and i think were

stepping back and looking at the now but let me pass it to sherry waters who is been involved in the project. >> thank you very much for the question of actually really excited to tell you about what we are doing the supply chain initiative and very much like what we've heard about from her panel. many very end-user focus brush and recently put a group together we looked at what are the most challenging problems that we want to resolve with the system. then we had teams take them back and evaluate all of those 24 that were identified for many people process and technology perspective. looking at it in that way, helps us begin to prioritize how we get liquid so that we can deliver viable product week prove the products that we already have in place we work with our partners processes at the same time see a very good

thinking i go back that will not recognize you again soon i think you in a very concerned that the va has a shadow it or magnificent happening outside of the office information and technology. what authority do you and the cio have over the business it efforts. >> i should be concerned or we work closely with the administration to come into a better partnership there in the authority i have in the leverage points we really try to have around the authority to operate if you going to be in the network, we have to review specifically from a cybersecurity's perspective and even broaden that approach as well and then the review as well and i think the points were made and whether everything goes

through that process is goodwin i think the gl was very good to survey the project is how many that do not and we been working with them in her office and strategic sourcing and it to processes in place to make sure the more more goes through that process and i'm a big fan of the qatar process because it reviews everything is a comes about and at the same time, the capabilities to do the technical review of the project his nostril with within the administration i think they would recognize that as well and we reached out to those groups is a look, one play a bigger role during the technical oversight of the project in most cases are activity there i think the work in the g.i. bill's been good when we said let us get more involved let us review the release plan and make sure makes sense that we do that is what

business when it there's a big concern and how would you restructure the efforts going forward and howdy think it would improve the va success. >> for the things were doing is my biggest concern overall or not is cyber security. so you know the sacredness of the sacred holes held in trust to make sure that we don't get a brace of the first thing that we are pushing for is our policy 6500 requires a people purchase software that is cyber secure and holding people accountable to that so if you have to have technical resources on your program even if it's with an it program on the actually cybersecurity and that is well is our goal to review it is the responsibility to ensure the developments that went through is a secure one and a second thing that we are doing is that we do it really i would say the

pilot level right now. is engaging in drafting an operational appointment with the administration that says not just in cybersecurity but in operations as well we will do this you will do that and will work together and in this way we did a lot of this in the commercial sector what we had windows team working with the office team delivering things together basically come to common operating model is that these are your responsibilities these are hours will work together and we think my first approach there which is been very interactive with that in just to clarify five virtual a memo on a with the responsibilities are, we quickly found that it is much more complicated in the back-and-forth thing in the operating agreement principle they were better. >> thank you kneeled back. >> thank you and in your testimony and even in the question you described taking

incremental approaches of the big bang solution why should big bang solutions be avoided. >> the whole notion that you can determine exactly the cost of the program and the precise requirements for program without large size from the beginning is fraud. and once we get involved in the project, things evolve in terms of requirements and the requirements and find our emerge in the technical complexity of the projects invariably and so this notion of building minimal product that you can build upon and build success upon success it basically allows you to home which you think are going to deliver more broadly builds on success from people's minds as well missy rollout fence difficulties and is he getting better and they start get excited about the project as well and i completely agree with the sentiment that there are very few successes the big bang

approach. >> is true in the commercial sector as well and you have the unique experience of being able to operate on both sides pretty. >> yes we've had our share of big bangs on commercial sites as well. >> thank you and you clearly learn some lessons and the bms and hr chain project moves forward to more fragile less risky approach and where also are you implementing this. >> will ironically i think where we are ending up is the arch rm program and if you look retrospectively, we established six locations, with the pause we are resetting you to write in a sense hindsight is 2020 we should probably do not from the beginnings of the scope of the project from the beginning should've been the first part and then would broaden it beyond that. things amount of them are using everywhere anything that even in

a sense is been talked about as big bank but is not really. it is get the blueprints of the transformation right start with some of the core offices and now the thing we would have to do in the future which were just doing with the central office the first central office first, is the rollout and that will be complex but i don't think it's completely accurate to say it was big bang project new thing was his nature and erp in general which is with the program is. it is a big commitment there is no way that transformation and i did part of it microsoft my previous role there we were consolidating 34 different pieces into a single global system the target was one single large global system he just need to do it and incremental fashion

to a very good and six years into the fmv today, and these rm systems, is too late if it is too late to change them wholesale to make them more agile. >> will is ac will actually think it is pretty agile and i think that the challenger is going to be an expensive program and it is essential every successful organization has a strong financial management system and is been noted that ours is 30 years old and is time to do this but it is going to be an arduous process to get it done and i think it is important to the approach that we have taken a think the next thing that they will do is take a particular business and use willing vision excited about the project getting that one right. they're focusing on information that has to work in concert with

the actual royalton i think it's going to work but it will take time to not eh rm as i said we just need to get the criteria right in the situation right we are which is what we have been working on it that that that appropriate time, will do the planning to move to another set of visions locations and again pause and get that right think are good signs there as well i think the level that the claimant would it is been good and received well this a good signs well that will be hard work. >> and the additional stamp available to them to give the support which again we start to look at the total cost and that is really been a big of the problem and we do not have just the overrun in the program itself. the incredible additional staffing requirements that are necessary to try to even implement this system and so when will we start to see the

results of some of these changes. >> i think we are already seeing some of those princes the success and uptime of that system is been strong soaking in many ways that if inmate bt though a very large project not an easy project to do has been fairly successful and we see on that the hr inside greater stability in a time of the oracle system meeting the performance amount of time and free time and user responsiveness as well so there's a good signs i think the hard work there the site right today technology is so hard for the process acting getting the system to be the processes and there is a lot of diversity across the business and so another thing successful is that rule standardization with the

hrm is been a big part of the work as well. >> and i think is a secretary said you should expect to hear from us about restart within the fiscal year 2025. >> why is it so difficult for large government agencies and the va particular to implement these mega projects successfully. >> is very good question. i think mega projects are difficult to do any time anything is probably the industry minimizing the complexities involved in we go out and ask for a new system the probably we should say we only want mpp and people in the industry say we have the solution and it will solve all of your problems probably says the expectations of the folks to high in terms of the simplicity of doing it and i think the cost estimates are probably part of the problem they tend to underestimate the cost.

the earlier question about have you ever seen program that did not overrun a constant for the may be as you get into the complexities things get harder and more expensive and part of it is interesting that the cost estimate in the beginning and so's independent lifecycle processing almost invariably increases both over. time. but it seems tending to say it's easier than it is near to be very wary these are very complex projects that have deep infusion and how the organization works nest not always thought about any effeminate the final thing i would say we need to did the expertise within our it organization so that people will i've seen a lot that programs in my life so impossibly wary great leaders like him with today or possibly wary of these challenges that come up and we need more of that. >> so for my view, it seems just

like quite frankly bad legislation. he took a piece of legislation and you continue to pile everything on it because everybody thinks his the last opportunity to get a bill passed in any what you end up with this really big and workable piece of legislation that is the problem with the city quite frankly and so using that in relation to software of people think that this is the opportunity that we have effects and everybody starts to try to throw their peace there as well and then becomes an unmanageable great big mess to listening to the experts saying we will take this and get it will make sure that we have that right think the next piece and build upon that and you inherited it and if in bt and all of the other megaprojects how long the decisions that were made before

you arrived and it is the nature of the beast ten if you could go back in time and start over with one of them, how many of those would you design or start differently. >> with a critical question on the hrm as we discussed and subcommittees modernization versus billing system real values to billing from a commercial system but it is a. difficult debate that you could have debates on both sides pretty they're having failed attempts to modernize assistant full-motion getting this step into incremental modernization where it's evergreen kind of what i would've having him back, that would have been kind of like the leading candidate on the vista side. i was not involved in the valuation only few vendors that the va could've gone with on the side of things like i don't have

that much visibility of how that selection was made with their were real merits going to a commercial product this way . i think that we are over the hopedale merits away the relitigating the modernization of this if we do need to continue to modernize this because is when be with us for quite some time self even wherever out i would've certainly no continue the rollout of oracle. if in bt is by nature and criminal effort and so i think actually took the right approach and one thing that's interesting is the choice of the system very federal government specific which the cti system has been to make sense because they do have a very large market share in the unique aspects of the system so those kind of access is on pointing the think we should been incremental definitely. >> very good and well i'm glad

to see that we are starting to get our arms wrapped around some of these and take smaller portions of them and try to get them functioning are taking facilities individual facilities and get it to work. and as i say, if you talk into a, contractor and engineer, we can build a bridge from here to europe and is a possible absolutely, but how much time and how much money will it cost. and so any of these things sure as far as megaproject of the engineer the developers of the will tell you we can do that and they can eventually but how many challenges what is the cost me along the way so odor to your successor to be skeptical of the contractors pharmacist hopefully, stay on the same path that we have all work together here to get us going down

because it has started to make some incremental efforts. >> i guess everybody is done and i have no rank for closing remarks that i think the witnesses for joining us today both panels the potential benefits of modernizing va it systems, are undeniable with the right it strategies for the va will deliver healthcare and benefits pastor and better and there's no doubt about it but the va leaders if they keep repeating the subways of the past, they will burn through billions of dollars of taxpayers money only to be left with this dysfunctional systems that do nothing to improve services for the veterans today the ranking member nine may lead at subcommittees position based on all of the evidence we gathered in the past two years for how the va should be approaching the it modernization nva should not be doing it megaprojects and

they just do not work in the always turning to black holes sucking billions of dollars taxpayers money into the contract pockets and put together to put together the up the empty the digital g.i. bill, are concerted the tickets are really going to custody a least $27 million more than what they were initially planned. no organization that includes the federal government should be allowed to operate that way. this is just not our opinion or expert witnesses the pitfalls of lying or developing software that a clear understanding of the organization and its requirements and they know that was fully project is set in motion, it's very difficult and expensive to restructure it. appreciate company up and sometimes the best course of action with the projects is just to simply cancel it increasing that and i appreciate it.

va witnesses will also understand it and we've discussed some examples like supply chain the capitol secretary mcdonagh mr. dell have wisely stepped back and reassess requirements and restructure the efforts and smallness expensive less risky pieces. processing the va convert dbms into a modern modular system and this is encouraging but as long as va leaders continue to answer the song ofs, i'm afraid that we will see more poor results overspending and budget problems printed no project should be too big to fail especially when feeling because it is done that way and finally, i would like to think you and the staff and i understand samples separately at everybody is behind us this help us to this work, represented

mccormick in the ga over all of the information that they have helped us with, secretary mcdonagh and i truly enjoyed working with him in the va and all of us, working together to identify the problems that we are facing, and i some incremental steps towards result met in several of the big issues which have plagued the va for years have plagued the va for years and i was so you that it is been my honor to work with you and serve on this committee and without, i asked unanimous consent and all members have five legislative days revised to extend remarks include extra material without objection, so ordered this hearing is concluded. background sounds

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