consumers is limited access to cellular phones because carriers demand cellular-phone makers signed exclusive contracts, precluding them some offering their phone on any of the network. this is the multiplier effect of not only limiting choices but also raises the very to entry for smaller carriers that cannot get their hands on the kinds of telephones that consumers demand. . i have provided several examples in my testimony.

even when they do pay for day to services, consumers are knocking the full experience of the internet. they are being served up internet light because wireless providers are blocking to consumers. the gao can look at the barriers of consumer and what over all impact it has more on market services demand.

fixing the in market exception for voice running -- voice roaming and information on a voice running. i look for too many questions we have. >> thank you. both verizon and at&t have defended their text messaging on the grounds that both companies make independent decisions. yet you have not made any attempt to undercut your competitors. why did neither at&t nor the horizon resist these price increases or at least raise your price increase less by the --

than the other one in order to undercut your competition? this is the way businesses normally compete. why did you each go up by the same amount? >> there are a number of factors to your question. let me point out that there was a coincidence and price changes. you constantly hear the suggestion that it occurred simultaneously. that is not the case. in looking at how the wireless world operates from a competitive standpoint, there are many places where each carrier paints its hat to differentiate itself from competitors.

some companies have all you can each plans. that is perfectly fine. we have looked at a variety of things -- places we have chosen to compete. there is not a plan out there that we do not have a competitive price. it is a price that is not undercut by our competitor. we have focused on places that really need it, less than 1% of the text messages were sent by customers on a per message basis. we focus our attention on the other 99%, we have made enormous strides to lower the prices on all of the various sites. that is where we have focused our efforts. >> from our point of view, the

decision that a customer makes to go with verizon or at&t is a complex one, and a involves quite a few variables. you are talking about issues to what kind of a fund you have, what are the various voice and data plans, what kind of access on the phone. it seems to us that the issue of whether we would be able to undercut at&t or sprint or anyone else in the paper text part of our service, and thereby attract customers away is doubtful. the notion of compression on -- competing on a series of price issues and differentiated service issues, phone issues, planned issues is alive and well. you can see all the different

kinds of plants as the various carriers try to compete. but focusing on this part of the market which is less than 1% of all the text messages that are issued, and believing that this will drive the needle, this is not our judgment. if we were to cut the price, we don't think we would attract anyone to our market. if they are a heavy user, they are using a different type of plan. we don't believe that the marketing matter or competing factor. >> and october of 2006, sprint raise the per message text price from 10 to 15¢. within months, verizon and at&t

also raised their prices by that amount. in october of 2007, sprint again raised the per message text price from 15-28¢. by march of 2008, both verizon and at&t once again matched this price increase within only weeks of each other. you say it has nothing to do with people subscribing to your service. kerik it doesn't charge anything. --cricket doesn't charge anything. >> we have pricing plans, incoming message, there is never a charge to receive them. you receive unlimited text messaging. we find that we have had opportunities to be innovative

in our pricing. to -- in today's economy is important for consumers to have a competitive option. >> she says that price is an issue. and you are saying whether you charge 10¢, 5, up 20¢ for a text message, is not a big issue. it is pretty hard to believe. if it isn't a big issue, what are you in business for? price is a part of your whole business. if they hadn't gone up 20¢, you would not have gone up 20¢? had they gone down from 10¢ to 5¢, perhaps you would do that. what we are suggesting is a clear indication that on the

surface here, one went up, the next one up. whether or not that was done after consultation for be for -- before consultation, it is not to be doubted to an extent. >> was there a question for me to try to address? if i might, there is implicit in this conversation, that if to competitors charge the same price, there are a number of faults with that. economists would say that does not indicate anything. the new world economy does not indicate that either. you can find businesses after

businesses, like ours, who offered a broad range of services and offer capabilities where, if you going to pricing sheets, you will find prices that we charge are markedly different from each other. >> you will find that in any business out there. home depot charges the same price for a barbecue grill that lowes does. does that indicate they are conspiring? of course not. for some reason, i can't tell you why, they chose on that component to charge that price. you can find the same exam at -- example for basketball shoes.

we have the same thing here. we have one example that was pulled out of this and say this is the same price, there must be something wrong. we have to come back to who is using it. less than 1% of our text message are at this price. businesses are not going to spend enormous resources in a competitive environment like today, in an area where there is such a small amount of usage. we focus on many other things. >> are the percentage of customers who use those volume, it is more than 1%.

>> for verizon, yes it is, it is more than 1%. more than 26% of our customers do not used text message at all. they don't need a bundle price for text bundled into their cost. of the remaining 74% who do taxtext, dew incidental taxing and paid on a pay per cost basis. >> i would like to call now on senator orrin hatch. >> this is an interesting

subject to for me. i am sorry i am late. if the accusation is true, why do we see higher prices in one small sector of the text in business? customers who pay for each specific text message called ppu, make up less than 2% of the text in volume. is there really that much money to be made in the sub section of the market as compared to the market as a whole? >> it is important to note that this is one example. it is similar to other individual services. the data and voice plants, for example.

it may result in more minutes that the consumer or user needs. they may buy a 200 text a month plan and once they pass that limit, they are back to paying 20¢. for us, we are not a living to any collusion. we are saying that people are not sitting in a room and come up with a plan from the consumer's perspective saying harm consists -- exist in the marketplace. consumers are being charged a maximum amount they are willing to pay, rather than always crossed the carrier can provide. -- rather than the lowest cost the carrier can provide. >> what percentage of your

testing comes from profit? >> i don't have the exact numbers for that. i can tell you that because 99% of our text message are on the rate plan, i cannot break this down by a particular unit. our networks are not instructed paper used verses bundle. i don't have that statistic for you. >> the only statistics i have for you is the one that i recall, it is not precise. i believe is minuscule. in a similar percentage rate,

similar customers that use the plan. it is a small percentage that use the revenue. i don't have the profit margin broken out. >> are your statements consistent on the profit margin, are they consistent with your analysis? >> my analysis indicates that if a text message is 20¢, the cost of carrying that is one-third, the profit margin is 19.7 cents. >> how can you argue, at&t is not exerting market power on the ppu market ? >> when you say that you're

suggesting one company can dictate marketing power, what you can see is at&t competes with all of the wireless carriers across a broad spectrum of products and services. we have different prices, different offerings to differentiate ourselves. the paper used text messaging is an area where we have not focused to differentiate ourselves, but we are charging a competitive price. some have different marketing efforts. we have focused our intent -- our efforts on another area. >> if you are steering

customers towards a bundling plans, can one do this in a truly competitive market? it has already been asked? >> we believe we can do this. we believe, as mr. watts stated earlier, that customers and bundled plans are far more satisfied, have far more protect -- predictable -- it reduces our costs, and we have much more satisfied customers. the question of whether we can offer our customers a bundle with lower prices, and give them the opportunity to pay as they go, this seems to me this is consistent with a competitive market.

this is a very broad market, there are billions of text message. this is a market where output had skyrocketed. those are not the markets -- markers of a competitive -- non competitive market. >> what is wrong with verizon steering their customers to a bundle plan? i understand this is a very popular plan, and offer better value. >> from a consumer perspective,

it is important not to confuse growth with competition. what is wrong is that americans overall pay more than consumers in other developed nations. i would suggest that one of the reasons it is doubtful that pricing individual text message is any way to get customers to switch. once that our lord into the contract, there are very high switching costs. and the fact that their handsets are limited to the particular carriers. it is hard for consumers to come up with their fees when they are shepherded into one of those long-term contracts. >> handsets and information they transmit and receive are becoming increasingly complex.

more than ever, proper integration is interpol -- is very important. are not exclusive to the agreements in the best justification for consumers power? >> i don't think so. now you see a 7% of americans have a cell phone plan. -- 87% of americans have a cellphone plan. and set the exclusivity is one aspect. --handset exclusivity is one

aspect. it offers a window into what a different world would be in the marketplace. if you look at the market in the u.s., it -- and set a exclusivity -- you look at other markets like computers and the internet, it expects to list -- it does not exclusively work on time warner, for example. there are plenty of other places where the devout -- device is divorced from the carrier, and that is good for the consumer because it offers more choice. >> senator hatch, i apologize. may i have a moment to respond to those comments? i have to say, he could not be more wrong. there are so many reasons why handset prices are what they are in the united states. while we hear examples of other countries where you have phones,

what is left out of that debate is the effect of the prices of the phones, the effect on the innovation. prices of funds in the u.s. are cheaper than anywhere in the world. carriers have a tendency to subsidize those prices, because they have exclusive arrangements with the vendors, or they have the ability to encourage or drive down the cost of funds that they buy. we have one of the more popular phones in the arena today. that is great for the american public. recently it was announced that apple would charge $99 for an iphone. that could not happen if the price was not subsidized by at&t. we would not be inclined to subsidize the price, if we didn't have the ability to read coop the cost of the subsidy.

other companies have arrangements where they do the same thing. that's usually benefits the american public, who pay less for phones. on the innovation front, nobody had an idea about touch screen technology, and all the things it did, until it came out and was successful. now competition, competition, competition. every phone manufacturer is spending enormous amounts of money to create the iphone killer. if you put in the phrase iphone killer on the internet, you will find thousands of stories about it. that is the essence of competition in this country. >> i have a question for you, but i will submit it in writing. >> senator?

>> thank you for holding this hearing, mr. chairman. my focus in this area has been on the second part of the hearing that the chairman has set up, the competition for the cell phone industry in general. my impression has been that this industry started out with little regulation, understandably. we have gotten to a point that the 270 wire -- million wireless, have only have a wireless phone. americans are using wireless internet light never before.

we are sending text messages at a very high rate. in the past year, we have also seen this unprecedented consolidation in the wireless sector. while this was occurring we saw some dramatic increases in the prices of individual packages. we also have other concerns. we had the cell phone consumer empowerment act. i am sure we will be reintroducing something like that. i have appreciated some of the changes that have been made, especially with early termination fees. there have been some dramatic fees -- changes in that.

having spent the weekend driving around my state on major roads, in rural parts of our country in minnesota, these are major interstate highways where the cell phone coverage -- it is very frustrating for people in my state, when they think they have less -- that they are getting cellphone coverage that covers the area. p -- generally people don't have good information. i would like you to comment about the girl lack of -- rural lack of telephone service.

>> thank you for the question. i really think cricket is an example of what can happen if we are allowed to compete. talking about disclosure, the unpredictability of the customers. since we do not have an early ttermination fee and we do not subsidize our hand set, we have to be very careful with our customers. we have to earn our customers. congress and the fcc in sure that some of the industry issues are there to promote competition today and into the future.

i discussed some of that in my opening statement on the constraints for spectrum as well as roaming that exist today. you will see more competition. >> do you think if you fix some of these roaming problems you would be able to provide better coverage for consumers? >> absolutely. >> we tend to take street sell funds out with us, which is a problem. --cell phones out with us. >> there is some good news, and you alluded to that earlier. we have seen services --

consumer satisfaction has increased. at the same time, prices are going up. i think it is important to look at that, and also look at the barriers of entry that stops the smaller competitors from providing services to the smaller places that do not have services. on the day to a question which is extremely important, because they that will drive wireless communications for the next 10 years, we seek special services getting charged discriminatory -- discriminatory rates, it stops consumers from being able to choose a smaller provider,

because they don't have the phones that consumers want. what do you think about this argument asking them to expedite their consideration of the handset and exclusivity? what do you see in this argument about this innovation and response to the innovation that says at&t has been able to develop because of the exclusivity contract -- arrangement? on innovation, i think it is important to note it is the innovator, the device manufacturer that is the

innovator. we have seen devices where services have been crippled as they have been developed in the marketplace. there is evidence, phone manufacturers coming out and saying we wanted to offer -- for consumers but are told we should not rule that out. this week we will see the iphone 3gs and the options with tethering and higher speed services available in europe, but not here in the united states. i believe that handset exclusivity is just one way to finance research and development. especially when you have a marketplace and consumers are clamoring for different types of phones. >> verizon has announced it will

announce six -- over two of your phones? >> we offer to the rural carriers that we would for our lg and samsung we would be willing to reduce the exclusive period to six months. those are our most popular telephones. >> what do you think is the average life span of one of these phones? >> i am not sure. many of these telephones have been on the market for quite a period of time. i think that the notion that getting rid of hand set exclusives come as government intervention -- a contractual arrangement -- i don't believe

it has any effect on the issues that mr. kelsey is began about. it will not put the handset into the hands of another carrier. they have to work with the device manufacturer to make sure it works on their network. there is mutual development that goes on. mr. kelsey doesn't know what he is talking about when he talks about that. it is a cooperative venture when it talking about innovation. if they went to a different carrier, they wouldn't get it. as to what is happening in europe, my view is that europe has a paucity of handsets compared to the united states. in the u.k., they have about 150 handsets available. we have over 350.

that is related to the innovation that is going on here. in the view that there may be a different way to find innovation is in accurate. we have the evidence before us. we have years of innovation that has come about where there are contracts between providers and device manufacturers, it rewards innovation by providing a period of exclusivity. >> you are reducing debt exclusivity period to a shorter period of time. one of the things we saw with early termination fees, bradley at -- gradually has the marketplace if out. -- has the marketplace changed.

my concern is that for some constituents, this is becoming their only telephone. they are becoming very price sensitive. they get locked into these contracts. we have to look at the early termination fees. they try to buy the best phone for their service area. they figured out that what they read, didn't really cover the service area. i am here talking about services, maybe they have some services, but then you go one block out of town and they do not have service. >> thank you for giving me an opportunity to address that particular issue. my company, at&t, i believe is committed to the world markets. we have demonstrated that commitment in a number of ways, with our dollars and cents.

in the last few years, we have had a number of transactions when we have tried to gain additional spectrum -- spectrum networks. centennial wireless we have a pent-up -- pending contract, and we have tried to break another up -- a number of assets from verizon. one of the most common attribute in each of these transactions i just described is the geographic area they serve would generally be described as rural. we have taken that step going out and committed to spend billions of dollars to get into those markets. we can bring advanced features to those areas we can focus on. we have a significant commitment where we can point to the dollars and cents spend -- spent. our capital budget as a whole

will be between 17 and $18 billion and two thousand nine. that is an enormous number. there is another factor. the work that is done on our network is done by the largest unionized, full-time work force in america today. we are not only investing in borough america, we are creating and maintaining good, solid, high-paying positions, a unionized work force. we are the only wireless company that has any unionized work force at all. putting that together, the concern you expressed, i believe we are addressing this head on. >> we still have some challenges, but i appreciate that. i look forward to working with

you. thank you. >> a single text message is limited to 160 characters. this doesn't cost very much at all for your in from -- intermission, with the doubling of text message prices on a per message bases during 2006 and 2008 is justified by increases in your cost. >> mr. chairman, we are a multi product firm. every firm like this has to recover all of its costs of various products. there is no reason in a competitive market to believe that at any time as i understand it prices will come to cost. we don't base our text message prices on our costs. we are mindful of our cost.

with respect to the professors analysis that doesn't cost very much for our network to do it to carry a text message, there are important points. looking at the long run incremental costs, or some sort of cross that looks at what is the next cost we're putting on the network ignores the fact that you have to have the network in the first place. we had to make huge investments in the spectrum, in computers and switching in order to carry even the first text message. the o's text message have to carry all of those costs. i believe, that the question of cost is not relevant to this issue. we are not sitting here in a regulated industry where the question is, what is the cost for this product? that is not the way prices are set.

i believe that respect to the issue is interesting but not relevant to what our prices are. >> i want to point out that implicit in your question was an acceptance of some of the testimony that you heard today. the increase in the quality or volume does not increase and a cost to the carrier. with all due respect to the professor, the network he describes that can increase simultaneously the capacity to handle trillions of minutes of voice tracking, can simultaneously handle billions, and suggests that network exists would be to describe this, could be magical in its proportions.

there are enormous costs incurred in building these networks. most importantly, you have heard that all of the text message will be heard on two hundred 80 cell sites in the world, that would be great if the world live around these. but they don't. they live -- 300 cell sites were built, because the capacity had to be created. to create that capacity, have we had to incur costs. >> one of the purposes of this hearing today is hopefully to come up with more varus competition in the industry. you can understand how we want to do that.

we are here to try to protect consumers. when you have a sufficient level of competition, it results in better deals for consumers. i am sure you can understand our promise. a consumer is charged to send and receive a text message. once it is sent to a consumer's phone, they are charged whatever the plans charge is regardless. you have the technology to allow them to decline a message, should they be allowed to decline a message and thereby save the cost? >> i don't know.

i very much hate to say that, but i don't know the answer to that question. i will try to find out and get back to you. >> i wish i did. we have the ability to receive no text message. they can lock their hand set out of receiving tax natchez's -- text message and charlie. -- text message. >> i believe the text messaging standard does not have a message what could be -- which could be sent by the consumer to be declined. you could always have a billing system, it would complicate measures enormously.

>> was a major motive for these price increases to try and and then raising the cost of text message and have an effect of encouraging on pushing consumers to the bucket plan because the individual text message was going up and up. i want to understand how your marketing plan works. the more it costs on individual text message, it is more likely that a customer will go to a bucket plan. right? >> we believe so. am i believe that is the case.

customers have done this with their pocketbook to get the best value. >> the way that phone companies restrict competition is by locking in customers with a two- year contract. sometimes it is hard to come up with 2 minute $50. -- to come up with $250. if an at&t customer cancels its plan only one month before the two-year contract is up, they still have much more than a prorated amount to terminate. you understand that? >> i do.

it is not accurate. it would have been true a year ago, but not today. if you get to the point you just describe today, you would pay basically one1 one/24th of the contract price. it was at one time. >> from my intermission, if they want to terminate, it did not cause that. >> i will confirm that. i will get back to you either way. >> anybody else have a comment that you want to make? >> i would just add from the

consumer perspective, it is a huge barrier to switching carriers, because it starts out at such a high level. just because it goes down $5 a month, after they have been with a carrier for 18 or 20 months and have paid back the subsidy on the phone, there is no reason that a consumer that wants to switch providers should not be able to bring their telephone with them. >> i just wanted to say that the gentleman talked about how much investment the company has made. cricket has spent over $1 billion on the spectrum and advanced services, and we are people -- putting people to work today building networks. we are able to offer affordable prices on our plan, despite the kind of investments we are putting into the network.

it is very important that we have a spectrum and roaming policies, and we continue to be successful today and in the future. >> i would like to take a eight. a time to respond. looking at the costs, the voice minutes also have to pay for the up front costs. i believe the analysis is in fact, accurate. costs are relevant to the issue. i agree with them. my testimony is focusing clearly on the cost. i have no position on the

pricing. i would like to make the point about rural areas. these areas always have a problem because the amount of revenue per square inch in rural minnesota is much less than it is in manhattan. you do want to include quality of service in both areas. it is not something competition will fix. thank you. >> in conclusion, i would only reiterate my belief that the wireless market in america is a

great success story. we need to look at this and make a lesson out of it. under the current set of rules, there has been a great amount of investment. many billions of dollars of investment. many, many, jobs have been created and will still be created out of the wireless industry in this country. innovation has been startling, and prices overall have gone down. we have a situation that with all due respect, we ought to be very careful not to run amok with it. >> thank you and all of the other panelists for being here today. today's hearing demonstrates the importance of encouraging of varus competition in the industry, as well as focusing on text messaging pricing.

we will continue to follow these issues closely. the fcc should be taking action to unsure -- in sure that barriers be removed and enact regulatory reforms. we should be encouraging competition. thank you all for being here today. this hearing is concluded.

congress returns next week from their july 4th recess with lots of business before leaving again before their august recess. the house returns at 2:00 p.m. on tuesday. agriculture spending is on their agenda. it includes $100 billion for mandatory programs such as food stamps and rural development. also, a bill to expand small business innovation. the houses live on c-span. and the senate is back on monday at 2:00 p.m. eastern to resume work on legislative branch spending for 2010 with votes on amendments scheduled for 5:30 p.m.. they will move on to homeland security spending for two -- 2010. minnesota senator elect al franken is scheduled to meet

with harry reid on friday. live coverage of the senate as always on c-span two. -- cspan2. >> coming up next, the governors from western states discuss renewable energy. that is followed by a hearing on the violence against women act. associated press reporter on her recent interview with president obama. tonight we begin our look at what else policy, from richard nixon to george bush, they will discuss the relationship with chief executives beginning at 8:00 p.m. eastern. and their experiences trying to sell their policy agenda to the public, saturday morning at 10 eastern.

here's a look ahead to upcoming guests on washington journal. tomorrow, and silverstein, on his piece on lobbying efforts and washington times editor richard miniter, -- he will talk about iraq and health care. and henry waxman on the clean air act, a steroid abuse, and the current debate on health care. washington journal begins each day at 7 eastern here on c-span. >> these places remind me of modern cathedrals. walter kirn would like to see changes in the system. >> i think these wonderfully

concentrated islands of power and wealth can be opened up to the larger society's and not kept separate, which they still are. the vendor education of an overachiever. you can download the c-span podcast. >> the western governors association held their annual meeting last march -- month in utah. renewable energy was among the topics. this last one hour, 45 minutes. >> good morning.

as you heard yesterday,john huntsman will not be here for part of the day. he has a peculiar situation in a good way. we will be hearing from very important people. it is remarkable that the obama administration has been such a show of force, representing their interests in what we are doing in the western transmission corridor. we will be getting to them later. first, i would like to discuss the work of governors to expand energy. western governors have led an effort to develop policies for transmission planning and clean energy development. in june of 2006, we published reports outlining while vast resources exist throughout the

west, much of it is in remote areas without transmission lines. a cost effective transmission act remains the greatest impediment to rapid development of facilities, renewable rich resources in our area. in april of 2008, western governors partnered with the u.s. department of energy and interior, agriculture to create the western renewable energy zone project. alberta and british columbia have been partners to our work. this project will ultimately identify those areas with the potential to develop large-scale cost competitive renewable energy across the west, and the high voltage transmission that would assure this electricity be delivered to this capacity. we can respect each state's jurisdiction over transmission

facility. we can pave the way for interstate collaboration on the permitting of multistate transmission lines and allocate and reallocate transmission. we are releasing the phase one report. this marks a milestone in our effort to build a transmission grid. we will continue to work on three more phases of the project. we do appreciate the department of energy's partnership in this effort. we are partnering with others to move power from renewable energy zones. we are working to improve the education of wild life on transmissions associated with the systems. western governors sent letters to congress on policy. i will mention some of the important parts.

there are an unprecedented number of new transmission projects in the west. federal legislation should not inadvertently delay these needed projects. . .

congress should direct federal land management agencies, including the department of interior and agriculture, to use their result in evaluating and designating the corridors. federal agency actions are granting it and spending rates on return of transmission projects should follows plans. western governors' believe that the major hole wilhurdle has ben securing permits from federal agencies. the efficient processing of permits need to be the party of federal agencies. if we are serious about wanting to expand reusable energy, the

western governors are ready to pick up the ball and do our share. we have a lot to do on our side. reno that. there is some potential circumstances were governors -- we know that. there are some potential circumstances where governors need to meet national requirements. where the state has failed to make a decision within a reasonable said. -- western governors' believe the current system for cost allocation in the west is possible and will continue to be adequate for the future.

the exception would be the cost allocation for the kind of right sizing. western governors support reason future energy scenarios. if the year regulatory commission is given -- if the regulatory commission is given approval -- we are going to turn this over to my neighbor, the good governor of the state of wyoming, a person i have been stealing good ideas from for several years and making the my own, to add more to his body of information.

>> thank you, governor. those are the lkindest words you have ever offered. [laughter] usually i have to read them in the paper. [laughter] made this be a new beginning. [laughter] -- may this be a new beginning. [laughter] i look forward to you dropping a number of litigation. [laughter] i want to express my appreciation. it is pretty remarkable to have these secretaries and the ferc chairman here. i want to second governor sweaters comment. the states have our own work to do. each of us, either by election or appointment have public service commission's that focus singularly it on the operations

in our state. so this is not something that we had generally, as states, generally been supportive of. i think there is a shift here. by right sizing, what we're talking about -- we have proposal once headed west, a couple headed south, and if you that moved around and pick up some of the power that originates in montana and moves through. all of those lines are simply not permissible in the number of available and viable corridors. we need a process by which we build lines that are right size. we do not need a budget of 345 k b lines. we need a limited number of

lines that would be billed. that -- that would be built. we have cursed the wind as long as i have been alive. now we have found it to be a much more amenable to attribute to the state. [laughter] but the problem is that all of the permitting issues are correct. we need some joint work between the federal agencies and the state agencies. but the second part is the cost allocation. to billable line of the right size, you have to project how much would be -- to build a line of the rights has come a have to predict how much would be needed. you end up with a line that is not adequately planned in the long run in.

the comparison would be the interstate highway system. when it was built, particularly in these areas, at the time, it looked way too big. we did not need all those four lanes. now we are saying that they may not be big enough. we are arguing for the use of the stimulus money to, be essentially, facilitate building lines that are the right size, either through learning it to the utility's to build the right size lines, as soon as those lines are in use, they have to start paying you back. they denied it for free. they have to pay for it. -- they do not get it for free. they have to pay for it.

we are seeking some kind of a dialogue that will help us not only figure out which are the right corridors in an environmental and in a technical sense, but what is their right utilization of that corridor. it makes no on sense to take a quarter across the net states and have it on a 345 k b line could it consumes the most precious resource, the limited number of quarters you have. we would like to include the capacity to make sure they are the right size. if we do not figure out how to do this, my state, wyoming, will look like a plate on which you through a bunch of spaghetti and then completely the sort -- in a completely disorganized cents. -- in a completely disorganized centsense. there is a bias on the part of

the utilities for getting permits on federal land. they simply end up charging through -- it was described as a drunken fisherman? sailor. they are avoiding the federal land and you end up with pressure on the private land. i think the preference should be for what is the right route, as opposed to having a distorted by an inability to use the federal land. given the intermixed patterns of land, we will have lines that will pass both. right now, you have created a circumstance where we are incredibly inefficient and we're putting too great a burden on private land. in the western states, we love all of our federal friends and we're delighted you're here. [laughter] does that work for you, brian? [laughter] >> that is not what we usually

say, dave. [laughter] i am pleased to announce that, at the end of this session, we will be signing an ammo you -- signing andanan mou. in the west, there's probably something that -- nothing is more important than hunting and fishing and that kind of thing. they choose to live in the west. we honor the lands that we have here in the landscape. protecting our wildlife by identifying what led quarters is one -- identifying wildlife quarters is one of the essential things. i want to thank mr. wellinghoff for taking the lead. in montana, our person been very

active. much of this has -- our parks have been very active. much of this has been accumulated and has been made available in a digital way so that other agencies, state and federal can use that information. these wildlife corridors cannot affect political life. many of the old living in idaho and montana and elsewhere, if you ask them, they would not know which state they were a citizen of. i think it is important that the governor's wildlife council will be assisted by federal support. this mou will finalize the formal relationship we have as western governors' with our western partners.

on behalf of the western governors', we look forward to signing this mou at the end of the meeting. we're going to move on. we are going to have an opportunity to hear from our secretary. the western governors' requested that each of you commit your agencies to work with us to develop strategies for dealing the re-examination of energy quarters on federal land. i am going to turn this over to my good friend, governor, dusk kumagowski.

ted has some concerns about salmon downstream and we have some endangered species upstream, the white sturgeon and cutthroat. there have been accommodations made between as. i think we will be able to manage those endangered species. >> there it is. i got it. we are very pleased to have with us today the 50th secretary of the interior, ken salazar. he is a true son of the west, a fifth generation colorado anan. he is in a select class of

people who truly understand and appreciate the unique resources and vastly different landscapes of the west and their importance to our lifestyles and economy. he has firsthand experience when it comes to tackling the many natural resources that we face, water quality and drove, wildlife, preserving the irreplaceable. our national parks and wilderness areas. -- the irreplaceable beauty of our national parks and wilderness areas. mr. secretary, the western governors have invited you here today because we've understand the critical importance of states and the federal government cooperating.

we are excited to hear your remarks and look forward to a productive, working relationship with you and your staff at the department of interior. thank you. >> thank you, governor appeare. in my short tenure at the department of interior, i have come to you talk more than any other state. the people of utah love me so much fun on a different fronts. i appreciate all of you for inviting the obama team to come and have a conversation with you with respect to our energy future for our country. it is the signature issue for president obama. it is a signature issue for all of his team here and for the governors of this country. let me say, at the outset, we have taken much of our guidance from the work that the western

governors' association has done. that has guided us as we put together our team and map out our strategy for moving forward. secondly, let me say there is no better team that has ever been assembled at the presidential level to address the issues that you care about. when you think about steven chu and his background and the secretary of energy, the sciences, understanding climate change, the challenges that we face in transmission, secretary vilsack and his understanding of agriculture, the wide-open spaces of why well, -- the wide- open spaces of iowa, wind energy, and heading a power transmission group, and when you think about jon wellinghoff being involved with us with

renewable energy issues, that to say to all of you that we are here and we have been working very much on this agenda. this is an agenda that barack obama it is committed to getting done. we also understand it getting it done is what it is working with all of you. first, the department of interior has a very vast set of holdings and interests in the west and around our country is used to be known as the department of the west. is really the department of all of america. -- it is really the department of all of america. we also oversee 1.7 billion acres on the continental shelf. we're in the process of putting

together our plans in terms of wind, as well as the conventional functions of fossil fuels. there are 552 indian tribes for which we have the trust of the federal government. the western states really understand the challenges in terms of water supply. in the department of interior, which supplied 39% -- that is wrong. we supply 30 million people. you obviously know the public lands potential in the state of nevada.

we have a huge set of responsibilities and we need to work closely with you. there are two questions on my mind as we were going into this discussion. what is the real note -- what is the renewable energy potential in the west? you can get it out. steven chu and his department has been working for thion thisa long time. that really is a place where we have the greatest opportunity to harness the power of the sun. when you look at the high plains in states like wyoming and montana, we know that that is where the greatest potential is for us to harness the power of the wind. if you look at those maps at the renewable energy lab, you can see where the geothermal potential is. much of it is here in the west. how do we unleash this untapped

potential for renewable energy which is so much a part of their future? on that front, what i want to say is a following. we're working very hard at the department of interior, with our colleagues in the federal government as well as with the states, to move forward in a way that planning for what we are going to do. instead of waiting for applications to come in the door, as we have in the past and take what comes in, we are joining with you, the western governors to come up with a map. how we take into consideration that planning process, it does not do any good to generate renewable energy if you do not get it from the place it is generated to the visit will be consumed. their transmission issues than

many of you have raised and is front and center in our agenda. we also need to set the facilities and places that make the most sense. hence, the memorandum to be signed later today. we need to know where those wild life quarters are. we are taking those ecological and environmental values into account. i do not think anyone of us here would want transmission lines running right through the middle of our esteemed national parks. there are other kinds of values that we need to protect. we need to be thoughtful as we move forward. sometimes, when the federal government comes to the west and says we want to be thoughtful, it means that it is a way of telling you, no, we're not what to do it. [laughter]

times have changed. this is a new beginning. you will see from us a very proactive agenda relative to doing environmental assessments so we can map out the best places for the sighting for renewable energy facilities across the west. we also with that -- we also will establish renewable energy offices. we will be able to fast-track renewable energy applications. that is a vast importance. many times, these applications get stuck in the district office and they do not move forward. we have a nominee who will be working to make sure that does not happen. fast track in renewable energy

applications it is going to be a very big part of our agenda. the interest is there on the part of the governors and the interest is there on behalf of the private sector and others who have proposed two hundred projects for solar power plants and wind energy projects across the western states. we do not believe that those applications should be simply placed on a shelf. they need to be processed. we're led to move forward quickly as we can. thank you very much, governor, for that introduction. i look forward to this. [applause] >> thank you, mr. secretary. we're going to move right through and then we will have an opportunity for discussion at the completion of all the presentations. i now have the pleasure of turning it over to my good friend, governor ritter of colorado. we both went to colorado state

university. he spent a lot of time in the library, so we did not know each other there. [laughter] but, for those of you in the press, i'm going to say something you may not like. >> that is a shock. [laughter] >> the other day, i read about the governor ritter that, in colorado, they are increasing their green energy at the fastest rate in the country. that would be the 50% i do believe. congratulations, gov. ritter. it is a great honor to introduce dr. chu. we have the national renewable energy laboratory. [unintelligible]

as a secretary of energy, we have a person who was the head of the lawrence berkeley laboratory. i modify -- it was fascinating to see the secretary of energy of the united states of america as scientists questions. they had a difficult time answering them. it was something they were able to drill down into the science and work at the renewable energy laboratory dr. chu is a person who is the right person for the time. his job -- in his job, he has to battled the difficult questions. we have to break our dependence on foreign oil, increase energy efficiency, improve the transmission grid, and shift to low-carb and commission sources

-- low-carb and emission sources -- low carbon emission sources. to have a nobel laureate is one thing. to have personal that understands the country it has a vision for would wa-- for where we need to go is yet another. we look forward to your comments. thank you for all the things you have done to relieve forge a partnership with those of us in the west. dr. steven chu. [applause] >> thank you, governor ritter. that was harry kind. -- that was very kind. i have to say, when i look around, i see some real

leadership to take the country forward. many of the things that you were doing -- you are very supportive of the renewable portfolio centers. i took a tally of which states are supporting renewable proposals. it turns out that 34 states, including all seven of the western climate initiative states have proposal standards. 34 states means over 60 votes. [laughter] so i urge you as leaders of your state to urge your senators of how important the energy and climate bill is going to be. that is one of the things. renewable energy is going to be necessarily a high-technology

industry. that is another thing that is very important in the united states. we have an opportunity in the united states to begin to recapture a lot of the high-end manufacturing and high of technology. once the american research and innovation and in its billing, it is unstoppable, in my opinion turned we have seen this happen time and time again. now we have an opportunity to get this going again and become leaders in the technology. that will go a long way, not only to mitigating the climate issue, but actually give us new economic prosperity. secretary sellers are already noted that there are three cabinet members. this is a real show of force.

-- secretary salazar already noted that there are three cabinet members. this is a real show of force. we are from the government. we're helped it -- we're here to help you. i am pleased. in the department of energy, we're a month to be announcing that $80 million through the recovery act will be given to help plan and modernize the next generation of high-voltage transmission. that is something. there are $60 million for interconnections and $20 million will be going to national laboratories.

we're also going to be announcing $90 million, $50 million for state and public utilities in the recovery act and to their modernization of the grid and $40 million for energy assurance. one of the things that i do want to mention -- secretary salazar spoke of wind, solar, and geothermal, incredible resources. i want to remind you that hydro, roughly 5% or 6% of the renewable energy in the united states, actually deserves another look. if one just replaces existing turbines with more efficient turbines, we would be more friendly to fish. you can improve the generation of electricity. if you look at the dams that are used for flood control, but we're not extracting hundred park, you have another

resourced. the department of energy will be releasing a report that will show that there are many gigawatts of hydro energy that would have minimal environmental impact, but can have profound improvements in renewable energy. each gigawatt is a new coal plant or a new nuclear reactor. we're talking many tens of these. when you look at the finances, this is the absolute cheapest way of upping renewable energy, especially where there are existing dams. we have been working since about february/march. the group of five of us have tried to figure out where the renewable energy is, how you work with the state, and with

the environmental sensitivity, i think it is important to have for us a backstop -- to have ferc as a backstop. ultimately, we look to the governors to help us in trying to figure out where the best siting is. you do not want little lines going -- just to give you an example, the highest voltage line serves 765. most of them are lower than that. china is now putting in million volts ac transmission lines and 800 turbo dc transmission lines. this is embarrassing, quite frankly. the power capacity goes more than the square of the voltage.

it is something for the united states has lost lead and we have got to get this one back as well. the other thing i do want to say is that we have, between the bond build -- we have $65 million in loan guarantees. i want the governors -- i am trying to urge the people in wapa and bpa to get this money out. it is part of the stimulus package. i want them to get the money out as quickly as possible. it can be broader than just helping with transmission lines. you can use some of the money to build a bigger tower so that you hcan add capacity. i think he can use some of the money to put in for loans so you can put in more efficient turbines. you can use the money for a lot

of things. i need you, the governors, to tell me if you're unhappy with bpa and wapa and i will try to nudge them for more quickly. that is something i think is very important. finally, if there's anything that we can do it the department of energy to help us is what your turn to do it in the state to really bring this forward, to really capture all of the renewable potential in the west, please let me know. the department of energy is a big sprawling organization. sometimes the head of bureaucracies to not know what is going down below -- going on down below. i am a physicist.

i discovered shortly after it came to the department of energy that -- you know, newton has these laws of motion. once the body is put in motion, it will continue in motion. newton was wrong. you get something going at the department of energy and the next day its stocks, unless you push constantly. [laughter] so i'm looking to the governors and all the people in the west to tell me where things have stopped short and go back and push. thank you. [applause] >> thank you very much, mr. secretary. i am now going to turn to gov. heinemann to welcome one of our former colleagues, the former governor of iowa and know they secretary of agriculture. >> i noticed you did not say that i was your good friend. [laughter]

i am wondering what is going on. we still need to get a few issues and a little water flowing down from montana and wyoming into our state. is it a privilege and honor to introduce the new secretary of agriculture. bryan said a few things they're worth noting. he is a friend and neighbor to our state. in fact, we watch him fairly closely. sometimes we think we have to governors in our state. when he was the governor of iowa for eight years, he was a leader in renewable energy, ethanol, when, by a technology, as well as a finished -- education and economic issues. on a personal level, i would like to share with all of you that, even though he has been on the job if humans, i have had the opportunity -- job a few months, i have had the opportunity to call on him.

not only did he take the call, i he dealt with this in a very swift manner. he is a real hero in western nebraska. again, we are honored to have him here. mr. secretary, thank you what yo-- thank you for what you have done for our state and the nation. [applause] >> is a pleasure to be your -- it is a pleasure to be here. we always look with a degree of jealousy the work of the western governors' association. i have grown to appreciate even more the work of this association. you have worked in a bipartisan way to address issues, to the western part of the united states.

you generally have provided leadership on significant issues, energy issues. i think you're the first group of governors to focus on this issue. my hat is off to all of you for the work they'vyou have done wea team that works well together. i think you will see from our remarks in response of today that we are genuinely interested in finding solutions, many of which have to be addressed in this country. when the president started his administration, he issued his first executive order. he laid out the values that he wanted his administration to reflect. i raise this because i think this discussion supports those values. he suggested that he wanted his government to be participatory. he wanted it to be collaborative and transparent. as we deal with these issues of energy, quarters, transmission

lines, all of which are extraordinarily important to each of your states, you need to know that this is an administration that does want to work with you, that understands you have information and data that we need in order to make the most effective and best decisions, and we want to do it in a as open way to make sure that your voices have been heard. we have been discussing this since the administration started. the west what corridor study that has identified 6,000 miles of energy transmission corridor s in an effort to work on america's energy future.

we appreciate and recognize the importance these corridors will play in renewable energy and energy generally to the people of your states and in this country. usda recognizes that locating transmission quarters poses major challenges for governors. it also poses major challenge for us. there's always the issue of geography. it is difficult to have east- west transmission lines because of the mountains. there are always environmental, recreational, and visual issues. we have grassland reserve easements, which means block existing orders. [unintelligible]

transmission corridor management also creates implementation challenges, of vegetation management, the proper use of herbicides are issues. but there are also issues relating to the fact that transmission and for search for we have today is aging. in some locations, it may be impossible to take those transmission lines out of use while upgrading the transmission corridors. all of that suggests that there are serious child as a head. -- serious challenges ahead. we have been meeting for months to discuss in which ways our departments within the federal government can create simplicity, i can complete -- can create a system in which decisions can be made quickly,

and you have a single line, if you will, a single point of contact. i will be looking forward to working with ken salazar in the interior department. we see that department as being a lead agency in discussions of public land, which would include usda. we look forward to working to a identified a single lead agency, a single point of contact, a single administrative record, all designed to make this as streamlined as possible, but doing it in a way that is participatory, collaborative, and transparent. while i am looking for to the conversation this afternoon, about biofuels, we stand ready at usda to utilize the resources that we have. we like to defer -- we like to refer to our department as " everyway, at every day, usda."

we have business programs, grant programs, and a date title -- energy title reform bill, all of which we hope to be able to help you identify the resources that your respective states need to make this a reality. i want to end by simply sharing steven chu's optimism about the future. we are fortunate enough to be in a country that has always been an innovative and creative leader. the new energy economy, the new 21st century energy economy that president obama it envisions is one that embraces innovation and creativity. we have it in each of their states. we have it all across the country. while these challenges of

transmission are difficult, i am convinced that we are at the dawn of a bright new day. and with the leadership of the governors in this part of the country, i think the western part of the country will help lead that effort. thank you for your invitation. [applause] >> thank you very much, mr. secretary. we are now going to turn to my neighbor and friend, butch otter, who is going to introduce the ferc chairman. before we do that, i want to point out to folks that we have three premiers year to date. while we're talking about transmission lines, montana and alberta are building the first merchant line built in the western united states in three decades called the montana- alberta timeline goes from creek falls, montana to alberta. it will facilitate power pumping into the canadian grit or the american great, given any particular hour of the date --

into the canadian grid or the american grid, giving any particular hour of the day. whiff of that, but, we will turn it over to you. >> thank you -- with that, bu tch, we will turn it over to you. >> thank you. idaho is particularly pleased, pleasantly so, with some of the actions of the department of interior. we are very grateful. if that is the attitude, you can count on idaho working with you at all times.

i am sure it is. otherwise would not be here. -- otherwise, you would not be here. i know how difficult don wellinghoff's or can be. in my years in the and states congress, i was on the commerce committee. i wish now that i had been nicer to ferc. as the top changes, many times, the bottom does not. i am sure that some of those attitudes will change. it is a tough job. we appreciate the charge that you're going to do, especially on renewable energy for the electrical grid. luckily, chairman, that is one of his specialties. while he has been with ferc since 2006, and he has more than 30 years of experience.

he was instrumental in creating ferc's renewable energy sector. he has a strong background in many of the development and transmission planning, exciting issues that we face here in the west. please join me in welcoming john wellinghoff. [applause] >> thank you. it is a pleasure to be here. i want to first start off by commending the western governors' association on the western renewable energy zone. as you know, two of my colleagues were on the steering

committee. we followed you very closely. we appreciate your phase one report that you came up with. it is something that is very much needed. you need to know that you are very much ahead of that eastern inter-connect in identifying renewable energy zones. on that point, you definitely should be commended. when i first came to ferc in august of 2006, i set out in number of priorities that i wanted to focus on impaired those included focusing on improving the efficiency -- focus on. those included focusing on improving the efficiency of the structure. that also worked on ensuring that we can improve the amount of supply the goes into those

markets, especially renewable energy, to extent that we could apply when the end of geothermal. that could bring prices down and ensure that consumers have reasonable and affordable energy. we want to make sure that the markets work in a full and robust way. when president obama designated miata as chairman in march of 2009 -- designated me as chairman in march of 2009, with respect to transmission, there three areas where we would like to further activity in concert with the states. we engaged in planning where anyone who is an owner-operator of the interstate transmission system must engage in regional

planning with respect to their own specific transmission operation. but we have not extended that as you have. you have been very ford thinking in that regard. you should be commended -- you have been very forward thinking in that regard. you should be commended. we need to look at planning for it entered-connect -- for inter- connect standpoints. the secondary to the second area is siding. -- the second area is a sitin s. since 2000, we have found over two thousand miles of gas pipelines in this country.

you can cite energy transmission in this country. it can be done we have tdone. i think we have a track record here. we need to do it with respect to renewable energy. there's no question in that regard. the third area is cost allocation. i think it relates to this issue of right sizing and how we can right size the lines to ensure that we do not stray and substantial amounts of renewable energy in states like wyoming and montana wha. in that regard, ferc has taken some steps that are innovative, one related to transmission

proposal to be developed in montana. that was the chinook wind. we look at the anchor tenant concept. you could have a win developer commit to take capacity on the wind. by doing that, it helped finance and trade ferc is committed to working on those types of proposals and work on them in a way that will ultimately ensure that we get these lines build. i want to go over four quick slides. this is the ideal view of wind, above the clouds, working seamlessly, producing energy. you do not know of anything else. it is just operating. in the next slide, i think it brings us to a more realistic picture to developing wind and solar energy. we will also have to have transmission. it will have to be interconnected not only on the

developer side of supply, but also on the low side. -- on the load side. we need distributed integration that can connect with resources and allow us to integrate more of these resources into the grid. in the next slide shoe, you will notice that there are only nine in the western united states. there are 40 in the eastern interconnect. these units are very important pieces of equipment from the standpoint of looking at what are the frequencies of large interstate transmission lines and how those frequencies are varying second by second to ensure that you have stability

online. ferc is concerned about the stability in that we are charged with the reliability of the interstate agreed. we need to know what is happening -- the interstate grid. we need to know what is happening second by second. we need to know how it needs to be built to accommodate more of these renewable resources. my last slide is a slide of your western renewable energy zones. from that, if we do start developing wind and moving into lake centers and developing solar and moving into lake centers as well, how will it be effective on this system. if they look at the stress on the system, we may be able to determine that it might make sense to upgrade the system to make a larger system, to improve reliability, and, at the same time, will help us with his right sizing issue. we have commenced a state. we have been talking with the

department of energy about this. we will commence a study on the issue of western interconnects to determine what is the stress level and make sure that those are built of the right sizes to maintain adequate amounts of flow capacity so we can make these resources deliverable. they have to be deliverable to the loads or else we are blowing in the wind, as they say. thank you [applause] . [laughter] >> i first want to introduce nancies sutly. she was the deputy mayor of los angeles. she was the adviser gray davis. she has a great resonate. -- she has a great resume. for those of you who are not familiar with the canadian

system, the premier is the " lead of the governor. they are elected in the same way as the speaker of the house. the leader of the party that is the majority of, gary has been serving for some time. >> thank you very much, governor. it was wonderful to listen to the presentations today. thank you very much. certainly, we have worked with the western governors on a renewable energy portfolio. some of the premiers have adopted similar energy strategies. we use them as a basket to approach our reliability issues in our country with in the renewable energy portfolio, we have defined solar, wind, geothermal, and hydroelectric. when president obama met with prime minister herbert, they agreed to discuss a free markets agreement between canada and the

united states on all of the issues of reliability and energy efficiency, energy and ability, climate change, and all of these factors. i was encouraged by secretary to's comments on hydroelectric power other than -- by secretary chu's comments on hydroelectric power other than the domestic portfolio couo. i know the president and the prime minister discussed this. i miss just wondering, secretary chu, how successful do you think we will -- i was just wondering, secretary chu, how successful do think we will be with this? >> i am very for developing more

hydro. it is something that, if you look at the economics of it, there are huge up-front cost s. it would be very good for a very long time. it would have to be developed in the way that satisfies a lot of environmental concerns. but i am a big fan. i should also say that, when we design new hydro or upgrade existing hydro, 5% of that hydro can be used as a station down below so you can incorporate wind and use it to buffer the irregularities of wind supply. so the so-called pump harder, if done right, could have minimal -- so the so-called pump hydro,

if done right, could have minimal impact. >> secretary sellers are. >> i have one comment. -- secretary salazar. >> i have one comment. we have existing hydro facilities across the country. you have water running through small dams to pipelines and other things. that energy, to date, iis not being captured. one of the things that i think there's great potential in terms of hydro is existing facilities were all you have to do is put the turbines in place and start generating the hydro. >> we will turn to gov. buddy order. >> i have question for secretary vilsack. i was impressed and excited by your statement relative to biofuels.

as you know, we have massive wildfires in the western united states. two years ago, my fire bill alone was $23 million to go out and fight the fires. the resulting destruction of the watershed and the fields that were already down, many of those fuels are potential to be mined and harvested by biofuel operation. on two fronts, number one, improving the water shed itself and being able to protect the watershed and be able to use those resources for energy production. i would like to expand a little bit on your ideas relative to that. .

we are expected about the budget that the president has proposed as relates to services. we took the maintenance budget

to use fires. that means we will be taking money away from the budget, we will be able to use the maintenance budget the way it was intended. we think this is a tremendous opportunity for the western part of the united states, and will fit nicely into the strategy of using the force for multiple purposes, but utilizing the beginning of an echo system that ultimately resulted in the abilities to do with water issues. we are all very concerned about climate change.

>> we will not turn to the governor of wyoming. -- we will turn to the governor of wyoming. >> i think we need to understand to try to have a room more robust grid. i get nervous when people start saying that we will have won three noble line come in over here something else. anybody who has looked at the system needs to understand that it has to be an integrated system, and we need not run from that fact. the other is, i do appreciate that this is the most positive

response we have gotten on the fundamental issue. but how to translate this from conversation? i like everything you say. then when we go home, we have a power line if we can get through. private developers have a great deal of money, they will wait to see if we will do anything. my state is probably like most states. there are two or three places we can logically do this. we don't seem to translate -- i know you have only been in office a little while. politics is not what you did yesterday or what you can do for me tomorrow. it is what can you do right now. there are a lot of people coming in who say, we would like to move private capital, but we are not sure where the federal

government is going with regard to will we be able to get a permit on federal land? we really need something in the stimulus package that is out there that will help us do a project on the ground. how do you translate this from our conversation with the governor's, and i know you have a conversation with private developers. how do we translate this from conversation to getting a project built? i would rather is in wyoming. i could live with one in montana. we have got to transit the conversation into being on the ground -- translate the conversation. this is true in state democracy.

i am curious about what we can do to move this thing forward? >> let me first respond. regarding the department of energy and the ability to make loans, i did meet with some of these people at the epa. first i met with -- just an incredible opportunity.

i have to say -- it was unclear that progress could be made. i am pretty unhappy in the end of these developments. i am doing my best to try to get them to move faster. the best thing to do -- and i am unaware of issues in oregon, things that would deter private investment. you need to tell me how i can figure out finances and what to do. if i go three or four or five levels down, they don't like to report things like that.

>> two things, first, we aren't here because we know this is a priority, a part -- we are here because we know this is a priority. we are trying to integrate the efforts of the agencies within the department of interior. you think about how each of these agencies with respect to renewable energy and climate change and reclamation and water

supplies and wildlife service, and 10,000 earth sciences, the bureau of land management'. you have the bureau of indian affairs across the west. it is important that we get our act together. the second point that i want to make is that it is important to look at the planning and it is important that we lead the way on this. we will have to be able to cite these facilities. one of the things will be creating what will be energy zones. we will look at spaces that are appropriate for these things.

through that process, it doesn't mean you will be developing renewable energy projects everywhere. some places, we are moving towards that. once we have a program in place, that is how you implement it on the ground. renewable energy office, we will set one up in wyoming. we will be held at the state level. >> one of the things that helps move the process forward is that there is a clear indication and direction, and in our case, the president has indicated his desire to see renewable energy usage double in three years, which is a fairly tight time

line. he has given clear direction to us, and the degree of accountability in this administration. they want quantifiable data on what we have done. we have been working together in a very concerted effort to try to figure out how to streamline current processes that we have to go through as this relates to transmission sightings, and so there is no turf issue that crops up later down the road. we have to understand who the lead agencies are. we all have responsibilities. we will be looking to the department of interior as our lead agency and work in cooperation with them. they will set the time lines and we will meet the time lines. the president is also interested in learning how we can do the

job of governing better. the air not willing to concede the fact that it has to be the way it always is. finally, within our department, i think we have shown to some degree our response to the president's challenge. in my case, when the biofuels working group was established by the present -- president, he gave me 30 days in which to institute these energy titles. we met the 30 day deadline. we got the rules out. they are ready for you to look at. i think you are seeing a different attitude, a different approach between departments of government. there is no jurisdictional discussions here. in fact -- i think that will streamline the process and make our lives a little easier. >> need -- we will now turn to colorado's governor. >> to put a final point on what

the governor said, in part because i think financial markets will be setting financing and deciding a transmission in that relationship needs to go down a bit. i believe things are ready to pick back up in terms of wind farm bill out construction. it is not just wind, we talked about hydro. but the transition is among the most significant impediments to the build up. this is the right discussion. anything we could do we should be doing. we passed two different lost, one that allowed investments

that will accelerate their loss recovery. we have done things. if there are other things we have done, you should tell us. transmission is a mixed bag in what we as states can do to help. the other thing i would say is this conversation should be with the national governors' association. some states are having greater problems with citing the federal role. we as western governors can be helpful. the final thing is as it relates to the time bill, there is a danger for power infrastructure

that the federal government can be very helpful for us in finding ways to do the kind of things that can protect power infrastructure in the case of any kind of vague -- any kind of a fire. i appreciate the things you have done recently, moving some dollars towards energy i also would urge the department to look at places where our infrastructure and ask a question about what we as states can do to work together to reduce any problems. >> thank you. we will go back to the governor

of oregon. >> i don't want to be the one to close down the effort towards the greater investment towards transmission. my question is to build it is one thing, but to build a smartly and efficiently, where is the technology about building a more efficient transmission? i read that up to 30% of power transmitters through the line is lost that looking into that as part of the process of whether the transmission lines developed will be more efficient. >> the numbers are not that high. i am questioning that. one is transmitting electricity over a longer distance.

and as to go to renewable energy, these are very -- very well -- it puts a much bigger strain on the transmission lines to support energy from somewhere else or stops -- if the wind stops blowing. in addition to transmission lines, we also need an automated system that can begin to include the energy to points of generation. otherwise, we will have a closed distribution system. to that and, --end, two years ago and energy act that said the department of energy were given the responsibility of developing smart trade technology.

a lot of these communication standards so that you can begin to adjust the phases of electricity so it can be poured over here or over there. when i took over, i found that it had gone nowhere. we have now had meetings of stakeholders and to manufacture equipment. these are power companies. we develop the standards. it ultimately has the authority, it is better if the companies come together. we are on track for that. that is a very high priority, and we have secretaries pushing very hard on it. we have to do this all

concurrently. it will take a couple of decades, just as it will take decades to realize this, and it what -- has to be done concurrently. there are a lot of things that we are trying to push now. >> we will turn to the premier of saskatchewan. >> we will be meeting later this week. on behalf of the western leaders, i just want to say this. thank you for the invitation and we are so happy to be a part of this august group. lest there be any doubt about the potential impact and the

benefits of these kinds of exchanges, witness the fact that a year ago, you and i both talked about the joint carbon capture project. not too long ago we signed it to go further. the governor was a bit of a rock star and saskatchewan. they all loved him. they all said to me, why can't you be more like the governor of montana? you said your mother was disappointed in you when you came back from your trip to saskatchewan. i do want to say this. we are as provinces moving towards a greater renewable portfolio. we are hopeful working towards an involvement with western

governors on the issue of transmission, and how it can be moved with greater efficiency across the borders. it is really that general comment, that our three provinces are working together on a new grid that will span our provinces, and also expand the notion looking at a major chunk going north and south along the alberta line, across the western canadian grid. we have been working with our federal government for that investment. we need to keep this continental view of this particular issue going forward. i just want to thank the secretaries for this presentation. i encourage us all to take a continental europe transmission issues. >> we have had a very good conversation, most of it about

renewable i would like to talk about 50 percent of our electricity. i know about half a dozen years ago, the administration had proposed something, which would be a facility with carbon capture facilities. many states are hopeful that they would get that facility, even though wyoming -- more than any other state, and montana has more coal than any other state. both women and montana have one congressman. we assumed it would go someplace else. but we are ok with that. we need to build these facilities. secretary, i would like to applaud you. i read the of the day that the future project is going forward in illinois and.

someone has to lead the entire world. the entire world is using coal. someone has to take the lead to develop these sensitive technologies, and find the answers. i understand the recovery dollars include more than $2 billion. $1 billion will be dedicated to the future project, and there will be many other sources of intellectual steady around carbon capture. we thank you. i would like to hear your ideas. >> we have a considerable amount of funds both in the economic recovery act and in the budget for carbon capture. it is carved out for different things. we are working to try to impact

the alliance. right now, it is not clear. there is great merit in trying to figure of this technology. the lessons learned that in capturing carbon and others, there are a number of other projects of this commercial scale are vast. it is not clear technically which is the better way. you also can burn coal in an oxygen environment to create co2. the are supporting that. in addition to that, we very much need to develop post

combustion capture methods. any existing coal plants around the world and in the u.s., before we -- eight of 10 years to develop it, but in that time the world will want more. one shoe invest -- once you invest -- here is an opportunity for the u.s. to lead in the development of carbon calcified capture. the department of energy has invested a lot in that. let me also say this is bigger than the united states. every time i speak with my counterparts in canada, australia, across the world, we

are looking so that we can actually collaborate and share of the technical knowledge. we are talking about -- these are multibillion-dollar adventures -- of ventures. in the end, if china build state plan, most of the money will be invested locally. we can share information, because the idea -- we are trying to work very hard. not only the u.s. is trying to develop this, but other countries. there is a lot of coal in the world. the u.s. has the biggest coal reserves in the world.

it is followed by china and india, russia, and austria has considerable reserves. no matter what happens, let's figure out how to use it cleanly. >> thank you. now we will turn back to the governor of idaho. >> i would like to hear your explanation on base load needs on a nuclear energy. >> i think nuclear has to be a part of the mix. right now it is roughly 20% of the mix. even to keep it at 20% and going forward, it would require a concerted effort. there are three issues, first

safety and the nuclear waste and integration. the current reactors are far more sophisticated. i know see that as an issue. waste information, that is an issue. that is solvable in my opinion. finally, the department of energy will be investing in addition to helping the nuclear industry getting started again, we are trying to help. we have loan guarantee money that will help more reactors get going.

we are helping to get the -- tractor, which is on order from the world and in the states. this is a big first step. we also want to research and more advanced design. >> we have been talking grenoble's, and i think that is very important for us to talk about that. we have now talked about base load. as we talk about this grid, we are talking about the eventual nuclear facilities. i hope we keep that all in the mix, so that when we do advance the corridors that we are talking about, that we also advance these corridors with the idea in mind that those would be potential sites as well. >> can i ask just one other

issue? the fact we have not built one for well, we may have a hard time finding folks that know how to do it. the energy company is looking to building a facility, and they had a hard time finding -- you may think about the fact that we need to encourage people to get a college background to understand the capacity to construct these. we have a shortage of this and we need to address this as part of the overall problem. >> not only is it workers at that level, but a number of universities with energy with

-- with engineering has a term -- decreased dramatically. universities have to start building up. the nuclear engineers are trained a generation ago are about to retire. there are a few. >> there has not been enthusiasm for it. we can gear up those kinds of academic opportunities, if there is a future there. if there is an opportunity. >> this is one of the things the united states led the world and. we don't have the lead anymore frankly.

>> we have natural gas research in the west -- and gas resources in and out west. it is a cleaner burning fuel in many respects. could you comment about your sense of the role it plays in the portfolio? >> will take awhile for coal -- natural gas, there is a see change as i am sure you are

aware of. the emphasis is that natural gas resources in north america have recently doubled. that is very significant. power generators are highly volatile. many people are rethinking the global need for the next decade.

>> i have one quick comment. we are looking at a comprehensive energy program, if you look at natural gas, we have already we have permitted the land for leasing what is offshore. we have authorized 22 million a. of on shore developments as well

as 1.7 million in offshore. we said that only to punctuate what has been made in the last part of a conversation. when you look at our energy future, it includes many things. this brings us back to the rally, the transition of our energy portfolio. >> as i look around the table, some governors have been governor's letter than others, some have been here longer than most of us. in the baseball world, when you have somebody who is entering the twilight of their careers, they are still useful to go to the mound and for a couple of good pitches at the end of the game. we will turn to our closer. >> in my heart, i hope this

changes. in my mind, you have revert to type and you have. in understand the jealousy you have. i have a couple of things and i will make it quick. [indudaudible] whether or not have reached their position when you support the senator on this bill, and accept the liability from co2 injections? i believe for secretary salazar,

would you concur with the rest of the state's that it belongs to the surface is only? >> a couple of easy questions, no. >> we do sing that in terms of the public land mass, we have huge information for us to do carbon capture. we think there is a role there.

we have taken a firm position in respect to the senator, but we are not at that point. we do think there is a role for public lands. >> the administration has not taken into position, but the center is doing-the senator is doing -- one really has to say okay, someone has to step in today and try this out. in the last three or four or five years, i started talking a

lot with each yacht -- geologist, hydrologist who have the real knowledge on what happens in the current process. the strong feeling was that it can be done simply. this can be done right. >> the work we have done suggest it is probably relatively safe. i think after you get this bill, people will have a quantified. >> the department of energy's experimental -- some of them up

to 1 million t a year, we are aggressive about testing and getting oil companies to help us when they're doing enhanced oil recovery to monitor what has happened. in the end, they need to take on this by the option. -- by the the issue. >> let's have a round of applause for members of the obama administration. >> your watching c-span. coming up next, a hearing on the violence against women act. fell by an associated press reporter in an interview with president obama.

tonight we begin our look at what house policy advisers, from richard nixon to george bush, beginning at 8 eastern. tomorrow, trying to sell the policy agenda to the public. that is tomorrow morning at 10 eastern. we'll wrap up with lessons learned working with executives. on each unit this weekend, our guest is walter kerr, the under education of an over achiever. he tells the story of his years at princeton university in the 1980's. at 8 eastern on c-span. now senate judiciary hearing on the violence against women act in -- of 1994.

it was real voice in 2000 and in 2005. supporters like to see it extended in 2011. this two-hour hearing was chaired by patrick leahy. good morning. the reauthorization is a single achievement for the right to women -- of women in america. joe biden was instrumental in

the passing of this act. this landmark law, it is interesting is passed with very strong bipartisan support, and i would compliment senator -- and then senator biden and senator orrin hatch, who were chairman and ranking member respectively, who worked so hard to get this passed. i look forward to working with members of that committee and experts in the field on this. the women and families who are threatened with violence, you have an extraordinary power. with the acting director of the

office of violence against women in the justice department. people think of vermont like many small, rural states, very low crime rate and everything else. but they have domestic violence like every state. sometimes in more rural areas it is more hidden because it is something people don't want to talk about. the witnesses will be sharing their personal stories with this committee. one has gone on to become a successful actor, one has become

a fashion advocate for victims in california. i saw the devastating effects early in my career as a prosecutor. i know of violence and abuse comes from homes from people in all walks of life everyday. it transcends the age or class or economic status. domestic violence is a crime. we should never forget that. domestic violence is a crime. when i was a prosecutor, people did not prosecute it. we change that. now everyone knows that you have to. we have made some remarkable progress in recognizing sexual assault, stalking, dating violence as crimes.

more victims have come forward to report these crimes. laws have been passed to help us and to fight these crimes. women and men and children and families who are traumatized by this, one in four women and one in seven men are victims. when before million individuals are stock each year -- 1.4 million individuals are stockead each day. numbers like this is why i in

advocate increase funding for these programs. this will give resources to law enforcement agencies and prosecutors, a victim advocacy groups that have improve safety. also $50 million for a transitional housing assistance to provide safe havens. i would like to get on to the witnesses so i will put my posted on the record. the bill will make corrections and improvements to the law. it will continue to serve as a powerful tool to combat violence perpetrated against women.

i will yield to another former distinguished prosecutor, senator sessions of alabama. >> thank you. i want to delay any longer remarks. i look forward to hearing your testimony. the witnesses have spent a considerable sum of money and has a very important mission. every dollar of it needs to be wisely and most effectively spent. programs as they age sometimes become less vibrant and effective than when an issue was started. i would agree with the chairman, it has made tremendous progress.

when i started in 1981, i said then that local police departments, even small police departments were becoming far more attuned to the dangers that occur from ignoring domestic violence. the training programs have increased dramatically and are far more sophisticated today than when this program originally passed. that is all to the good. let's talk about what good things have happened, and what challenges that we face, and how to make sure that these programs are the most productive of programs to reduce violence in america. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> i can remember in 1990, when then senator biden for started working on this violence against women act. i know what a lonely job was to

get it started. it is incredible, and a great example to meet if what you can do if you put your mind to it. he picked up people as he went along. i want to thank the chairman for picking this up and moving along with it and carrying it even further. a lot of things have happened since the act was passed, which was promising. domestic violence has decreased by 50%. the number of women killed by an abusive husband or boyfriend are down by 22%. more than half of all rape victims report the crime. we still have a long wait to go and that is why we are here today. we cannot afford to turn our backs on women and families and who need our protection. we need to improve assistance for this program.

i want to thank you for what you are doing. this is the most incredibly important thing that i see every day in the job i do. i would like to thank you all. >> i think you know that this was their passion. sheila took this on and an amazing way. she was an amazing advocate for this. part of the work that came out of minnesota, i was the county prosecutor, the head of that office for eight years. the domestic abuse center was a model for the country, a one

stop shop, a day care center. instead of having to go through a bureaucratic maze, it was -- you could do it all right there. thank you very much. >> our first witness is the acting director of the department of violence against women paren. she is responsible for launching the offices of sexual assault services program and this is a logistically services program. this is one of the original staff when it was opened. she has had an advisor role on him and trafficking issues,

another matter of enormous seriousness. she served as deputy of the state justice consumer services. the your being here. >> thank you. thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. i am the acting director of the department of justice's office on violence against women. i am here to discuss the report will progress made in the violence against women act, made almost 16 years ago, and the challenges ahead. i want to protect the chair -- think the chairman and a staffer working so closely on this bill. this bill contains a number of

much needed amendments to improve our program. the everyday, funding makes a difference in how communities across america assist and protect victims. the 19 grand programs provide funding to states, local governments, tribal governments and nonprofit organizations to assist communities, encouraging them to create innovative programs. we are grateful to congress for real authorizing this in 2005 and expanding our ability to expand all systems including victims of assault. this year for the first time, obw will make awards under the sexual crimes program. there was a report released which conforms -- confirms that

stocking is pervasive, women are at high risk of being stalked. as the nation's understanding of domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking has been increased, so has our awareness that this affects all age groups. this often tragically bins -- begins during adolescence. congress direction -- directed obw to look at how violence affects travel women. advisory committees provide information and consultations to learn of the department can increase our effectiveness to these crimes. we are proud of our accomplishments. there is so much to do. looking for, the office was

focused on a number of areas where needed. over the years, we have learned that law enforcement officers and prosecutors and judges sometimes have -- we cannot rely solely on the criminal justice system. to be effective, local responses must be informed by the voices and experiences. i have made a tremendous difference in the lives of many, we recognize that we have left many women behind, particularly women of color. in the months and years to come we will engage in efforts to place accountability to keeps a freshman and girls. i am inspired by the extraordinary commitment of the women and men who devoted their lives to ending violence.

our lives have most unchanged -- have most of been unchanged by the stories. i read the story of christian, she was an art student with her entire life ahead of her. she was dating a man who became abusive. she broke up with him, and he series a beat her. he threatened her and stopped her. she obtained a protection order against him, but he did not comply, came to our workplace. he shot her in the head and returned to shoot her twice more. he went back to his apartment and committed suicide. the man who murdered kristen had a three page arrest record, was

convicted of multiple offenses, was the subject of multifold -- a multiple offenses. the victim's father investigated his own daughter's death and professors of articles which allowed him to win a pulitzer prize. every day, stories about homicides, rapes, domestic violence and stalking remain in our headlines. this is unacceptable. we have much more to do. thank you, mr. chairman for your commitments to this issue and get your time this month. i will be happy to answer your questions. >> thank you.

i remember reading those stories and, and wondering how difficult that must be for a parent to write something like that. i have three children of my own. i can only imagine how the tears you apart. we have a serious economic crisis in this country. has that affected or increase or decrease or affected the need for the services that we have with you? >> unemployment is one of many factors that in combination can lead to an escalation in violence. from research that has been

done, there are other things that happen in combination with unemployment, abusers threat to kill a woman or children or to harm them. threats to commit suicide, forced sex, and the presence of a gun. these are additional factors that we need to look for. we know that shelters help women avoid that kind of abuse during situations where the partner, there has been, may be unemployed. it is also helpful when judges know that they should issue a protection order when guns should be removed from the home.

>> we are also sometime around the middle of july, we will have made awards through our transitional housing program. we received 567 applications for transitional housing relief. we will be able to support only 20% of those, so there is a tremendous need. we received 91 applications from tribal governments and will only be able to find one third of this. >> * change, and i mentioned earlier -- times change. we had to make up these programs

as we went along and fortunately a lot of dedicated people contributed everything from housing, and on occasion my wife and i would provide them -- i would provide that. we have done a lot more than we did decades ago, but their needs currently victims for domestic violence, stalking -- are there things we should be doing? are there things we can be doing at the federal government? the state governments have their own program. >> we do need to enhance our response to sexual assault services. we will be looking very specifically at the need for enhanced sexual assaults and rural america. we are very concerned about custody issues in domestic violence cases and we will be

looking closely at what women are losing custody of their children to the courts or through the states to the child protection system. we are also going to be looking closely at the problem of children exposed to violence. we know that when children are safer -- we know that children are safer when their mother is safer. the other thing i alluded to that is of great concern is that we begin to focus on homicide prevention more so than we ever have before, and that we use research to inform our practice, and we used practice to inform research. >> i don't mean this as an either or thing, but thank you for mentioning rural areas. they are sometimes neglected.

you also mentioned the tribal issues. there has been concerned about the lack of communication between the u.s. attorney's office and indian tribes. the u.s. treasury decides not to bring charges. is there anything we can do about that, because with some of these we do not have a situation -- i talked to a number of western senators who are concerned about this. is there some way we can get more timely information to tribal officials when they declined prosecution? >> our office is responsible for providing direct funding to trouble governments and coalitions. our mission is to make sure that we are providing victim services to alaska native villages and two different tribes in indian country.

-- and to different tribes in indian country. our mission is not related to the prosecution of those crimes with the u.s. attorneys. >> would you suggest there is some way of getting better communication? >> i was going to say there is always room for better communication and better coordination within the department and across federal agencies. >> i may make a few suggestions to the attorney general to make sure that is done. senators sessions. >> thank you. he began a discussion about what our new challenges are. -- you began a discussion about our new challenges are and how we can get information out to local law enforcement. i remember fred thompson used to say the most valuable thing the department of justice can do is

to do the good research that helps individual police departments make the right decisions. you mentioned some of the studies you have on going. are you satisfied that the office and department of justice programs are identifying in a practical way the kind of protocols and procedures that would be most effective for law enforcement agencies for a mid size city. that they are getting the kind of guidance that helps them to establish the very best protocol for success. >> thank you for asking that. yes got the answer is yes, with the help of some national law enforcement organizations. -- yes, the answer is yes. we have been able to develop

clear protocol and practices. we are also going to be updating what we called manuel promising programs. we will be looking at law- enforcement. the thing for us to remember is since this was passed, we have a whole new generation of police officers who need to be educated. and we don't need to go back and reinvent the wheel. we had done some significant work in that area. what we need to do is continue to educate. >> when you tell the story about kristen, and that is such a powerful story, my question is could that stocker have been identified earlier -- could then stalker have been identified earlier? do we have any identifying characteristics that say this is

an abusive person? but this was an abusive person who could become homicidal and dangerous? does the average prosecutor and police department know what these are, and are they making the right identifications of the most dangerous people? >> thank you for raising that. i think we do have this indicators. we have that knowledge. i mentioned some of what those indicators were in the case of kristen. a lot of those indicators were present. she did everything right. in her case, she sought a protection order, but the problem was that she got a protection order in boston, and he had been arrested in other jurisdictions and across state lines in new york. so we need databases that speak

to one another. it would be great if every judge were able to pull that up well on the bench. i think that our judicial institutes that we support, the leadership institute for chiefs of police and the prosecutors resource center are ways of getting that information out. we have the information and we need to get it in the hands of local practitioners. >> i think that is true, but just because you do a study and issued a report does not mean that a proceed prosecutor or judge has had the opportunity to study it. i don't know how we -- i assume there are some disputes about what the best protocols are on various circumstances. i would assume there are areas in which there is uniformity of

the agreement that under these circumstances, this represents a real danger and strong action should be taken. would you agree? >> i entirely agree. >> have you thought about how to make sure that information is more widely spread? do we have an affect another program to get that information out? >> we do. we need to continually reach out to prosecutor kornelius and national associations. -- we need to reach out to prosecutor coordinator i we have been quite successful in doing that, but we can always do better. we continue to try to enhance those databases of judges in the law enforcement officers -- and

law enforcement officers. we have created dedicated units like in minneapolis and other parts of the country. >> virtually every community has a more specialized units, protective houses for women and children who had been abused i am pleased by that -- who have been abused. i am pleased by that. we will have a few of these cases like kristen. it is my view that a lot of individuals unfortunately are very dangerous. the number of people who would actually kills somebody consistently or sexually assault somebody is not that large in this country. if they are properly identified, some of them need to be detained for the offenses they commit.

perhaps that will prevent offensive in the future. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much. i always have thought that one of the beauties of [unintelligible] is how it tried to encourage community-based responses. we actually got our hospital involved so that we had victim witness advocates accessible to people. they were part of the community response. we actually started a post- review process where something could have gone bad kind of like after surgery when a hospital looks at their errors. we did it not publicly but we got the partners together to figure out what went wrong. sometimes it was something like a police department not

answering a phone call. we were able to do a better job because we did those reviews. can you talk about that coordinated community response and how it has contributed to the value? >> let me say i did visit your office and saw what an extraordinary job you all were doing several years ago. thank you for that. as i alluded to in my comments, i think coordinated community response will only be strengthened when we turn to the communities, particularly the diverse communities who we are charged with responded to. we have not done a good enough job of listening to the voices of survivors. you alluded to something which is an extraordinary tool, which is the safety audits that were developed. it is a tool that can be used to

pull a response together by looking at cases and figuring out where women fall through the cracks, and who could have done a better job. that has been one of the most useful tools we have had. the other issue is for prosecutors and law enforcement officers to work with advocates in balance and listen to add the carrots and survivors. i cannot underscore it a enough. >> one of the things that is frustrating was the enforcement of protection orders across jurisdictions. i know that you have been looking into that. could you talk about what you think we could do better with that? >> as i said earlier, if we could begin to develop databases that are more reliable.

i think that would make an enormous difference. >> another thing on my list of things is the rape kit. i believe this prohibits jurisdictions from charging victims of sexual assaults for the cost of processing their rape kits. there are many jurisdictions where the victim has to pay for it because victims are expected to pay it themselves and had states reimburse them after the fact. should we be taking more steps up front to ensure no one has to pay for the rape kit? >> absolutely. >> i would have been upset if you answered any other way. >> i am not making this up. it happens all the time. in our state there were proposals to do this.

i think people would be surprised if they knew. last year it was discovered that los angeles has the largest backlog of untested rape kits in the country. almost 13,000 untested chips. even if they are the worst offender it is really a national problem. the national institute of justice estimated there were 400,000 untested kits nation- wide. is this something we should be looking at as well? >> yes, we need to look at ways our office can coordinate more effectively with other parts of the department to make sure this backlog gets addressed across the country. >> thank you very much. i appreciate your work. >> thank you very much. did you have a follow-up question? >> what do you think about the

requirement in 2005 congress created a funding incentive to make states test rapists for hiv within 48 hours after a rest? is that being effectively done? -- 48 hours after rest -- after arrest? >> we definitely believe women who have been exposed to hiv have the right to request that the offender be tested, but as we know it is not always so that the offender is apprehended within 48 hours. what we are focused on is being able to provide the victim with the alternative to receive counseling. our focus is on her. what we have learned is that

about 84% of the state and local governments who receive funding through the grant program you are referring to are unable to meet that requirement. what we want to do is to -- >> why is that? >> it could be any number of reasons, but not the least of which is that the offender is not always available. >> that is obvious. but for those who are arrested, i don't know why that would not be a standard protocol. >> it is about giving the offender -- giving the victim an alternative. yes, we need to test a >> what information do you have about that every department should test a rapist for hiv? >> i don't. >> we have a law that says it. you are changing the subject on

me. i don't understand what the hesitation is. >> i am saying that where that offender is not available, we need to give the victim -- we need to put our focus on the victim and provide an alternative for her. >> thank you. >> thank you. the you have any follow-up? >> no. >> thank you for being here and thank you for the emphasis you put on desk. >> thank you very much. thank you for all of your work. i appreciate it so much. >> we are in this one together. we will call up the others.

>> thank you all for being here. we are going to start with gabriel union. is an accomplished actress and made appearances in television and more than 20 films. when she is not acting she is an ambassador for the susan g. common foundation -- susan g.

komen foundation for breast cancer. my wife and i have been on the fast walk. she is an advocate for victims of sexual assault and a graduate of ucla where she received a bachelor's in sociology. >> i want us to say the words sexual assault together. it is a crazy that we cannot even say the words. a brief back story. at 19-years old i got a summer job and while i was at work in maine came into the store, runs the store -- a man came into the store and the man raped me. he very calmly put his gun down and said do you mind handing me the gun? at that point i fell on my back

and i tried to kill him. i missed and we began to fight. he beat me beyond recognition. luckily enough, and i hate to say this, but i had the privilege of being raped in a wealthy community. the police arrived within minutes. it is a police department that was adequately funded. they immediately took my statement and they were well- trained. we immediately went to the rape crisis center where they took my rape kit. i was able to start the path from rape victim to rape survivor. i cannot say enough about the difference it made that i was raped in a wealthy community. it had an adequately funded rape crisis center. i immediately began to get the treatment i needed. within days my rape kit was

tested and analyzed, and a few days later my rapist was apprehended. within a few months he took a plea and i had my justice. it is rare. it does not happen. i cannot say enough about the need for adequately-funded rape crisis centers throughout the u.s. i work closely with law- enforcement. what they always say is we don't have the time or the resources to get a rape victim between the victims and survivors. rape victims make terrible witnesses. rape survivors are amazing and affective to help us get rapists of the street. if you want to bottom line is, having adequately funded rape crisis centers helps get brigance off the streets. rapists and don't go away at the end of the day to rape land.

they lived next door to us. they are raping our sisters and daughters. we have to help law enforcement get them off the streets. we have to be advocates for the victims to help them lead productive lives. it starts with adequate funding. to tell a brief story, i was in africa and was sitting at the bar. there was an image of paris hilton and her little dog. it got the bar riled up and they started telling these jokes. this man said silly americans, you care more about your pets than your people. they will put tons of money into -- when in doubt if you are in america cannot beat your wife and not your dog. i just want to say we have to make human being is a priority. we have to make our women a priority in keeping them safe. it starts with adequately funding these programs.

it has become a sad reality that when i go to third world countries to speak to women and give them the hang in their speech, i find that i have to give the same speech to women in america. in third world countries we don't have an expectation of criminal justice. there is no chance for a therapy and a hand holding. i am finding i have to give the same speech to women in america. we are supposed to be better than that and we are not. we have to do better. thank you. >> thank you. karen has been the director of the vermont network against domestic violence since 2007. i have worked with her a lot during that time before she came to vermont.

she had worked at various victim services in ohio for 15 years. she received her bachelor's degree from bowling green state university, her master's degree from ohio university and currently lives in vermont, where the head of my vermont office lives. dumont network -- the vermont network of domestic violence -- i would like to thank the president and members of the board who worked tirelessly on behalf of everybody here. please come up when you go back give my thanks -- please, when you go back give my thanks. go ahead. >> distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss the success of the violence against women act and the importance of

reauthorize in it. this is a state-wide coalition of domestic violence programs and our programs are located throughout the state and provide life-saving services to victims. these are a critical part of our work in vermont and across the country. i am here to discuss the success of our programs and the need to strengthen its with its upcoming reauthorization. the crime of domestic violence is life-threatening. one in four women will experienced domestic violence in her lifetime. one in six women will have experienced an attempted or completed rape. the most heinous crime is murder. even in one of our nation's safest states, there were seven domestic violence-related

homicides and three suicides in just one week in 2007. the cycle of intergenerational violence is perpetuated as children witness violence. approximately 15 million kids are exposed to it every year. in addition to the cost domestic violence has on the lives of individual families, these crimes cost taxpayers. but in addition to saving, they actually save taxpayers $14 billion in social costs in the first six years. it was not only the right thing to do, it is also fiscally-sound legislation. it has improved the national response of domestic violence. states have passed more than 660 lost to combat domestic violence -- more than 660 laws

to combat domestic violence. a number of individuals killed by a partner has decreased by 24% for women and 40% for man. the written testimony details the impact of the grants, including enforcing protection orders. each of these create system in which adults confined peaceful lives. i have had a firsthand view of the impact and i would like to highlight three programs. we have helped to educate an entire generation of law enforcement officers about violence against women. they help state and local governments to strengthen law enforcement and develop victim services in cases involving violent crimes against women. i can attest to the results of a study performed which said they have ensured victims are safer and be treated more

uniformly by first response workers. they allow jurisdictions to implement programs that address the specific barriers faced by victims in a rural areas. art statewide program has created innovative specialized domestic violence unit within the department of children and families. this insures that children get the support they need. for the first time in 2008, the sexual assault services program was funded and will begin to meet the needs of victims of sexual assault. this will allow states and territories to provide much- needed direct services to victims and various organizations. rape crisis centers will be able to provide expanded medical and

psychological support to victims. the continuation of expansion of these funds is critical to the creation of services in relationships that will result in safer communities. more victims are coming forward each year, but this demand for services without increases in funding means many desperate victims are turned away. you noted in one day that nearly 9000 requests went unmet across the country due to lack of resources. services for sexual assault victims are even more scarce with only 1315 rice -- rape crisis centers nationwide. people are actually on the waiting list to receive therapy. the job is not done. although we have done much to create systems that helps survivors, so much more is needed. we must work for all victims of

domestic violence, whether they live in rural or urban areas, whether they are children or elderly victims, every victim deserves the chance to lead a peaceful life. congress has an opportunity to make a difference i reauthorize in the violence against women act with key improvements. thank you, members of the committee for all you had done and all you will do to help victims of domestic violence. >> thank you very much. anne is our next witness. he wanted to say something aboutms. burke. having been married to a registered nurse, i am sorry for the reason we are here. >> thank you. i want to welcome ms. burke here. i don't think there was a person

in this state that is not aware of the tragedy that befell her family and the way in which her life changed when lynsey was murdered by an ex-boyfriend. we have also been very inspired by the way that anne has taken what for many would-be a disabling calamity and turned it for as much good as one could possibly imagine could be achieved. and she has obtained passage through the legislature of the act, which requires programs in high school to support awareness of teen dating violence and support in the schools for those programs. she started the memorial fund to provide support for those efforts, and she has co-founded a group called made to stop

dating abuse, which is a parent support network for parents across the country to support healthy teen dating relationships and cope with tragedy is that still take place. she is somebody rhode island is proud of. we have shared with her as much of the public can such a deeply private tragedy. we have seen what wonderful success she is drawing from that tragedy. i welcome her here today. >> thank you. please go ahead. >> ranking member sessions and distinguished members of the committee, they keep for the opportunity to testify on the importance of creating awareness on dating abuse. i appreciate the opportunity to share my daughter's story and the legacy that has come from her loss.

my husband is here today and we are members of made. this is a group we co-founded. we advocate that while the middle and high schools teach a dating finds curriculum. today i like to tell you the story about my daughter. she could be described as the girl next door. she grew up in a small street in the suburbs. she had plenty of friends, it took piano lessons and played soccer, she graduated in a degree in elementary secondary education. her friends would describe her as having a sweet and compassionate nature. my daughter met her kelly -- met her killer at a wedding. we noticed a change in her personality but we did not know the cause. as the police would describe, it was a classic case of abuse in every form.

let's not overlook the strong correlation between stocking and intimate partner violence -- between stalking and intimate partner violence. 76% of women murdered by a partner had been stalked by that partner. after she left the boyfriend for the third time and was living with my son, she got calls constantly from him. more than 20 hours a week worth of calls. she was fearful and anxious. earlier, he had threatened to kill her. she had support, but after leaving him for life ended almost four years ago when she was only 23-years old. the autopsy showed she was brutally tortured and murdered by her ex-boyfriend. as the attorney general said after the sentencing, i am

hopeful that her death will provide lessons for teenagers that will prevent others from being victimized. after her murder i spent many painful months researching this topic. given the alarming statistics, i began to wonder why don't we require educators to teach children about the importance of helping relationships? i asked myself if she was properly educated about this major health issue, would she still be alive today? i believe she would. i never learned about it while pursuing my degrees in nursing or graduate degree. as a result of being a health teacher in a middle school, i never addressed it with my students. i have learned that my lack of education is more the norm in our country rather than the exception. as a teacher, i realized we had school policies for a sexual harassment and teach our students about these issues.

i strongly believe this same needed to be done for dating violence. i believe if my daughter was taught about dating violence and if we knew all the facts as well and reinforced this information, she would still be with us. having known her as an assertive young lady who did not hesitate to change friends when some of them started drinking alcohol, who did not hesitate to seek help from her guidance counselor and from the principle when she thought something unfair was occurring, would she have been more care of that -- more careful if she had some frame of reference in her mind from prior learning? knowing my daughter, i believe she would have been. now we will never know for sure. how many other women have to lose their lives at the hands of an abusive partner? the dating violence statistics are alarming. teen dating violence is a major

health problem that leads to other problems, substance abuse, depression, suicide. research found a strong connection between violence among young people and poo r reproductive health problems. a steady found that one in three high-school girls who has been abused by a boyfriend has become pregnant. we can also reduce unintended teen pregnancies. the psychological effects are also devastating, devastation i know all too well. dating violence destroys 80 kills people. how can we ignore this major problem any longer? in 2006, my family founded the memorial fund to address dating violence. through our work shops we have trained many help teachers. -- we have trained many health

teachers. we have trained over 1000 teachers so far. one reason they come up rhode island legislators took a stand by passing the act. rhineland mandates annual dating violence education for students through our health education program. there is a school district policy to address episodes of dating violence at school. episodes of dating violence at schools in rhode island will nylander be ignored. teen-agers and parents will get the education that they rightfully deserve. an interesting thing happens when you educate all three groups at the same time, everyone begins to talk openly about this topic, of removing the stigma that exists. this helps victims to come

forward to seek help, it helps parents to reinforce this information at home and watch for signs of unhealthy relationships. abusers may also think twice about their own behavior. since passage of this act cannot we have gotten support from the national association of the attorney general and the national federation of women legislators. as a result of their efforts, several states have passed laws with bills pending in other states. however, some have been watered down due to lack of funding for implementation. funding and leadership is needed for comprehensive dating violence education. the last bill created the step program supporting teenagers through protection act that would support training in schools, but it never received

funding. this is exactly what states and school districts need to implement these laws. if this is more critical in light of a survey released that says american teenagers are experiencing high levels of abuse in their dating relationships. it also found parents are out of touch with the be someone they're teenagers. the large majority of this abuse are not informing their parents, and most even stay in abusive relationships. this highlights the need to start funding. to do anything less is selling our children short. >> thank you very much. our next witness is a current national share of force 100. she formerly served as mayor of the city san one in california. she has endured tragedy's several times in her life.

the murder of her son, the murder of her brother. the experiences have made her an advocate for victims rights nationwide. i know this is not an easy thing but i appreciate you being here. >> thank you so much. thank you for the opportunity to allow me to address you today. you are right, it is not easy but it is worth it. the violence against women act has been very important addition to help strengthen our nation's ability to assist women, the victims of terrible sexual assaults in the violence. but that fact alone does not -- but that act alone is not enough.

our criminal justice system lacks due process and common sense. we certainly acknowledge resources alone are not sufficient to bring true justice. there are huge issues in our justice system that will continue to affect hundreds of thousands of families just like mine. the sad truth is my family members -- many others would be alive today if our justice system worked like it was intended to, like it should. but instead in our home, our only son, brother and sister in law are all dead, all murdered. >> take your time. >> to adequately judge its

importance for our nation's decisionmakers, this makes me so mad because i am a tough old abroad. when i went to be tough i am not. i know my husband is watching and that really ticks me off. >> you are being as effective of the witness i have seen in 35 years. don't let it bother you a bit. >> 5 bless you. to adequately judge what is going on -- god bless ypu. it is important to personally identified with a tragedy and crime, and the truth and reality of what victims are forced to endure. it really stinks. you have taken on the big responsibility of the most important job in our nation, the city of our citizens -- the safety of our citizens.

we must have predictable sentencing and keep dangerous criminals behind bars. it is critical to have rapid access to dna to save lives and precious time for law enforcement. it is also important to have victims present and hurt at all proceedings. they know too much to keep them out of the courtroom. i realize it is more than important and impossible in a few moments to bring to you the real world of being a victim of crime. it is not a great thing, and we have to stop it. for a quarter of a century my family has been through living hell. it was furnished firsthand by the killers, criminals who should have remained in prison. then more hell was distributed by the justice system.

if our justice system had worked properly, my murdered family would be alive today. in 1982, our only son just disappeared from the face of the earth. we frantically looked for him for 11 months. two parolees had stolen his car and decided if they were but missing they would never get caught. the killers statement to the undercover agent was we took him for an airplane ride, strangled him and threw him into the pacific ocean where the sharks would eat him. senators, what if the killers had been given three life senses and was released in only four years. the other killer was out on work for low after killing somebody else.

both of these criminals had been given another chance. but we never have another chance to see our son. while we are still going through the eight years of our son's trial, where we were excluded from the courtroom, my only sibling and his wife were also murdered. it took another 19 years to get this killers convicted. from the very beginning i was certain who had killed my brother and his wife. naturally, their attempts on my life so they would not be brought to justice. however, let me tell you, i am the proud daughter -- of a

wonderful man who was captain and chief of detectives on the california police department. at a young age he taught my brother and i have to have courage and always do the right thing. i have a hell of a good shot, by the way. not too many victims have self- defense training and are able to survive for a quarter of a century of murderers wanting to take them out because they are trying to bring justice. i respectfully ask you to please place yourself in the position that many of us have been forced to endure, and only then will you understand the best steps to take to provide for better safety of our citizens. i think you for allowing me to sit up here and slobber all over myself. i guess because i flew most of

the night and i am tired, but i wanted to be here because i never want others to endure what i have gone through. thank you, senators. >> miss campbell, i am glad you took that flight. i am sorry for what you in court before that. you have four former prosecutor is -- four former prosecutors, things you describe it should never happen to any victim. crimes should not have happened in the first place. the delays after that never should have happened. we are trying in every way possible to get the resources, training, the steps so that -- the law in rhode island. i think the murder cases i

prosecuted, 75% of them had steps been taken earlier, they would have been avoided. there is nothing more tragic than being at a murder scene at 3:00 in the morning with blue lights flashing, people crying, and have the if only. thank you for what you said. he put a human face on what so many of us have seen -- you put a human face on what so many of us have seen . havesally wells is the assistant to the attorney in phoenix who helps oversee an office of 350 attorneys. she supervised the operation of the prosecuting division within the office and has been an attorney for 23 years.

she had her bachelor's degree from the university of virginia and her law degree from arizona state university. please go ahead. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you very much for allowing me the opportunity to present the views of the attorney's office concerning the continued importance of the violence against women act. more specifically, about the value of mandatory minimum sentencing for sexual assaults as well as prompt hiv testing in cases of sexual assault and sexual abuse. the attorney's office is located in the phoenix, arizona. it employs more than 350 lawyers, prosecutors to prosecute more than 40,000 felonies a year. as a 23-year veteran of the office and chief assistant, i

have prosecuted domestic violence cases, sexual abuse cases, and currently overseeing the specialized bureau the focus is on prosecuting those crimes. sexual violence causes lasting trauma to victims beyond physical injury. in many cases, these crimes go unreported due to the fear and trauma associated with the sexual violence. fear of retaliation from the offender and fear of public scrutiny. in our experience, it is not uncommon for a sexual offender who is caught to admit to other sexual assaults that were never reported. in a 2004 study at arizona state got it was estimated only 16% of all sexual assaults ever came to the attention of law enforcement. with respect to the fear of public scrutiny, the value of education cannot be underestimated. the dissemination of accurate

information about sexual offenders and their victims is essential to change public attitudes about these crimes so that victims don't suffered humiliation. one messages that should be clear in any statutory scheme and should be part at any educational effort is that sexual violence is one of the most serious of crimes. the punishment associated with the sexual violence should be commensurate with the damage it inflects. a mandatory minimum sentence of incarceration does send that message. with respect to the fear of retaliation, a victims' suffering deep physical and emotional trauma of sexual assaults need to know they are safe from the person who hurt them. they need a time to heal.

for at least some time, the victims need to know that the offender cannot return to inflict more pain or punish them for reporting the crime to authorities. a mandatory minimum sentence of incarceration sense that message. arizona's statute scheme does send that message. sexual assault is a class two felony, the second-highest felony. a person convicted of sexual assault is not eligible for probation. a person committed -- convicted of sexual assault is exposed to a sentence of seven years in prison. if mitigating factors exist, the sentence may be reduced to a minimum of 5.2 years in prison, and if aggravating factors are found, the sentence may be increased to 14 years in prison. in every case, a victim may

expect the offender to be in prison for at least five years. in that five-year window of safety not only encourages reporting and participating in court proceedings, it also gives the victim time to heal without fear of retaliation. in 2005, arizona move away from classifying sexual assault of a spell as a lesser crime than sexual assault. -- sexual assault of a speouse as a lesser crime. some of our legislators were concerned that the higher penalties associated with sexual assaults might discourage reporting. in looking at the past cases, the crime of sexual assault of a spouse was often accompanied by

more serious offenses, which is -- like kidnapping or aggravated assault. the belief that a lower penalty in would encourage reporting for sexual assault of a spouse, or that a higher penalty would discourage reporting is not supported by the evidence. another important component in dealing with crimes of sexual abuse is biological testing. along with the need to know that they are safe from any diseases defenders may have transmitted to them, they need the assurance they are safe from those diseases. there are several arguments for early biological testing of suspects. although i am not a medical expert, prosecutors generally except that if a victim reports

significant exposure during a sexual assault within 72 hours of the assault, doctors can prescribe a 28-day regimen that will help the victim to prevent the contradiction of hiv. the sooner this regiment is begun, the more affected it is. -- the more effective it is. this medication may cause serious side effects. victims who do not know whether the attacker had hiv are forced be tuned -- forced to choose between the risk of hiv infection or the risks associated with the treatment. those side effects could include liver enlargement or bone marrow suppression. information from prompt offender testimony -- offender testing will alleviate

that. this would allow the victim to feel safe and begin to heal. in addition to biological testing, to ensure the safety of the victim another kind of testing plays a vital role in the investigation and prosecution of these crimes. dna testing of the suspects in shores the suspects are identified as early as possible -- it ensures suspects are identified as early as possible. sexual offenses are often repetitive crimes. the ability to link these crimes to specific individuals early and to specific geographic areas helps law enforcement put an end to serial offenses sooner. sexual offenders are often linked to other types of crimes like burglary, trespassing or

other types of felonies. dna evidence is important to create an accurate criminal history for suspects. it also eliminates suspects so that law enforcement resources are not wasted. .

go into more about what he said in your statement that you were in a community that could afford to do the right things. how importuned is that, not just the things that helped catch the perpetrator, but i think you were referring to the counseling that goes along with it. do you want to elaborate on that? >> the main difference in wealth community is that the system kicks in immediate the. the rape crisis center is well staffed. whether it with me or someone

who speaks spanish or mandarin, there would have been someone there who could have translated. that is different if you're in an ethnic enclave community. there may not be a translator. it is the same sort of thing for crimes that happen on native american reservations. they do not have the same access to translators, therapists, counselors, and free hiv and st testing is not available. as much as i would love to test the suspects, i am more concerned about the victims. i would rather prioritize that money to offer free testing for hiv and as to these four victims immediately. that is what happened to me. i was raped in a very wealthy community. it is those kinds of differences that took me from rape victim to rape survivor and i was able to be an active participant in the

criminal justice system that allowed me to help apprehend a suspect in a timely fashion. without the funding for the rape crisis center, all communities create a parallel universe of justice, where only a few people who are raped in wealthier communities will get the justice and the treatment. it is great to have somebody behind bars, but if you cannot get on your path of recovery and reclaiming your dignity and integrity and getting mental health issues in check, you have been left as a shell of a person. it is incredibly important to have those rape crisis centers well staffed and properly trained. >> let me follow that. there is a town of 1500 people.

i live on a dirt road. my nearest neighbors half a mile away. not unusual in parts of vermont or california. rook california can make rural vermont look like an urban area. what about those areas? something happens in a very small town in vermont california. what is available? i assume not what miss union had available to her. >> that is an adequate description of rural areas around the country. the reality of being a victim of domestic violence or such assault in a rural area is that help is sometimes miles away. there are barriers to finding transportation. our rural communities are small. one of the things we love about living in those communities it is -- is it is very tightly knit. people are often related to each

other. this can create a situation where victims feel they cannot come forward because of their relationships they have with the people living around them. i have talked to many victims who of the living in rural communities in vermont and ohio where the law enforcement person in their town was actually the brother of their perpetrator. there were real problems for victims living in rural areas. it is because of the nature of the towns and outlying areas where they live. the other factor is in domestic violence, victims are often isolated by their perpetrators in many ways. they're isolated socially from families and friends. they're isolated economically from jobs and access to family assets. in rural areas, there are isolated geographically. they may live in very rural circumstances. i had the experience of visiting victims of domestic violence and

have driven through creeks to get to the place i was meeting them. rural conditions are incredibly difficult for victims and the challenges are huge. >> thank you. my time is up. ms. burke, i agree with senator white house. -- whitehouse. >> thank you. i appreciate that. >> it would of been easy for you and your husband to say, we have a tragedy, we're shutting out the rest of the world. instead, you are helping people. ms. campbell, you were married in 1951. i was married in 1962. it does not seem that long ago anymore.

i want to applaud the bravery of both you and your husband. these are all things where it would be so easy to just run away and not refer to it anymore. instead, you have been very helpful to this committee. that is extremely important. >> i appreciate your kindness. it means a lot. very special. you always have been. >> thank you very much. thank you for being here. i want to turn over the questioning to senator sessions. i will turn the gavel over to the senator. >> miss wells, miss campbell described individuals, murderers, who had previous records that she rightly

believes should of been in jail and not able commit these kinds of crimes again. let's pursue that. you are a professional. you have been at this a long time. i have come to believe that mathematics are a factor in all of this. there are just not that many people that are sexually -- that sexually assault women. a certain number of those people are repeat offenders and are dangerous. from a public safety. of view, is it important we identify those persons early, and if they be incarcerated in order to protect the people of this country from this kind of violence? >> you said it as well as i could say it. yes. that is critical. there are a lot of studies already that are helping us to

attend by those persons. as soon as i can identify them, we should incarcerate them for as long as possible. hopper >> you have personally try these cases. your and expert in it. do you think there are other departments, district attorney options, none prosecutors, may be young police officers to deal with one of these cases and are not aware sufficiently to identify a person who might be a highly dangerous offender that needs to be given longer sentences appropriate under the law? do you think we are missing people and that is causing additional crimes that could have been avoided? >> i do. i agree with one of my colleagues who said there's a new generation of police officers and prosecutors coming who have not had the education that i have.

it is important to keep the continuity of that education and to keep doing the studies that help us identify those offenders. i believe that dna testing is one of the tools we have to identify people early. >> tell me about the dna. how come in a sexual assault case, important is it that dna be determined and maintained for potential future use? how does that work to solve crimes? >> anyone who watches television knows, dna is a very useful tool in identifying possible -- suspect. it can be preserved for a long time. there is on a recently passed legislation that requires dna evidence to be held for a least 35 years. that legislation was introduced by victim groups because as we

heard today, many sexual assault are not reported or they are reported much later than they occurred. the offenders may not be identified for many years. the ability to find out who the culprit was, who the offender was, and to find out maybe that they are in prison somewhere else because they have been doing this over the course of their often their career, if you want to call it that, is very important to victims. >> miss union, the person that assaulted you sexually assaulting the person later that same day. is that correct? >> a couple days later. >> a couple days later. if you did not identify that person, the dna obtained would have shown investigators it was the same rate as. is that correct? if they had a previous arrest and that at that on record, you would know exactly who that person was. >> that is correct.

>> it is important to have databases so that law enforcement agencies in different jurisdictions can identify a single offender. >> what is your opinion, ms. wells, on what other departments are doing with regard to maintaining dna and run the country? do you have any idea how well other departments are maintaining dna in the sexual assault cases? >> i do think more and more places are passing legislation to make sure dna is collected early. it is collected from a broader range of suspects, not just suspects who commit sexual crimes. a number of crimes seem to be precursors or associated with sexual crimes like burglary, petty theft, other kinds of felonies like that. many states are kickstand -- expanding dna tests to those offenders as well. if we can identify them early

and stop even one assault, it is res -- it is worth it. >> i could not agree more. thank you for your testimony and your work. i wish we had more time to talk about it. i think you're touching on an important societal problem we face and i am glad that you are showing that leadership. thank you for speaking up and being effective on these issues. there was a movement of victim'' rights and it has really changed the law enforcement mechanism. that is one reason murders are down substantially from what they were in the 1980's when you lost your family members. i do warn, however, that i sense of movement that is beginning to go soft on the lessons we learned. it simply is this. certain people are dangerous.

they attacked one person and that is indicative that they might attack another one. we do have to maintain tough sentences. i wish it were not so. we have to force certain dangerous offenders. thank you, madam chairman. it is a pleasure to work with the. >> thank you very much. >> i enjoy your delegation -- your great work with the delegation to canada. it was a fabulous group and you did a great job. >> thank you. you did pretty well speaking with the fiddler. there was a lot of negotiations in canada. senator whitehouse? >> thank you. ms. burke, you have done such good work in this area. as we look to rhode island as a potential national model here, what further feedback would you give us on what elements of the programs have been best received, have been most

effective? what are the lessons learned from what you have done that you think congress should focus on? >> i think the lesson learned has been the need for funding. the implementation of working in rhode island was mostly because our organization, from even before we had the law passed, stepped up to the plate and said that we would be willing to provide free training for school staff so that there was no funding attached to the bill when it was passed in rhode island. the drawback in other states, what we are finding is that many states have good intentions, but they are very concerned, especially in these hard economic times, about the cost of training school personnel. i have gotten calls even this week from the state of ohio,

from new mexico, asking how we implemented the laws, what are the specifics, and what were the costs. for it to be successfully implemented, we have to have funding. i also believe very strongly as an indicator that we need to pass lindsay's la maintaining the components of the law. it would be a severe drop kick -- severe drawback to educate the students but not have this dedicated. we would not want to leave our parents out of that equation. we need to educate all free at the same time. i do not think it takes a great deal of funding, not as much as perhaps most people would imagine. when your staff is educated and you help teachers or whatever teachers are designated in other states to be the primary

teachers of the students, when you have that training done, it only has to be done sporadically for new hires. that can be incorporated at the college level in their college education programs for student teachers. >> you want enough funding for the program to be persistent through the year. >> correct. initially, you probably need a substantial amount of funding. after that, that number should drop down so it can be maintained. i have seen firsthand the success of two of my own former student. they have come back to me at different times, one who went on to a private high school and one who went on to our public high school. after learning about it in middle school, they found themselves in those types of

situations due to the nature of an abusive relationship. they were not aware at the beginning in one case of the students themselves recognizing the warning signs. she was able to get itself out. in the other case, it was the friend who had the occasional piece who recognized the sign. they worked with their friend to get them out. i know the education works. there is no doubt in my mind. all students have a right to that education. we can save lives. i was talking to kathleen pierce. it will be difficult to measure how many lives we are saving. many people will not come forward and tell us, long after they graduate. when we teach this education, we are teaching them life skills. it is no different than anything else we teach in health class. we teach them about heart disease prevention.

the chances of them becoming involved in an abusive relationship in high school is far greater than them developing heart disease in high school. >> thank you for what of them. in 1999, my juvenile justice taskforce did a program in high school and distributed something to the schools and police departments. i will take the lesson of persistence from you today. >> i was trying to find that tape to see if we could duplicate it and handed out to all our schools again. >> one very quick question in my last seconds for miss wells. >> you can take your time. >> thank you, chairman. when it comes to testing suspected perpetrators of sexual assault and obtaining dna samples, what level of suspicion do you recommend be

reached before the testing can take place? you require full probable cause, or more of a clearly articulated standard? at what point would it be appropriate to require dna testing in the spectrum of suspicion from, we have no idea, round up the usual suspects, too, we have a victim who has identified who the perpetrator was and we know who it is? there's a wide band. at what point should this kick in? >> in our state, and i agree with this, the standard is probable cause. that is the same standard that police use when they make an arrest. we also have a statute that allows dna testing for certain crimes, not every crime. that is upon arrest or charging by prosecutor. >> no probable cause. >> there is at least probable

cause if the offender did commit the offense. >> that is adequate? >> i believe that is a fair balance. >> thank you, chairman. >> thank you. it was a wonderful panel of witnesses. >> thank you. i want to also give my thanks for your courage, miss union, and the way you told that story. ms. burke, the great work you're doing. ms. campbell, i know your husband was proud of you. you just showed him. i would not worry about that at all. thank you for your work. i want to follow up on a few things. senator sessions was asking about dna, which is incredibly important. one of the things that i found recently in a last 10 years, we call it the "csi" affect. a jury is expected dna. you will have a sexual assault that has no dna or you have a domestic abuse case that may not

have dna. we actually lost the case or two, smaller cases, because the jurors said, why wasn't there dna? they agreed with the defense lawyer. that is when we got the right to rebuttals. our state was the last one where the prosecutors have the last word. we got that change. do you want to comment on that, changes? one of the issues kahane -- one of the issues was allowing us to go forward when the witness would not testify. what you have seen in the development of laws or evidentiary techniques to help those cases where you do not have dna? >> you are correct. juries expect forensic evidence in cases of sexual assault. that is the cry martha "csi" a fact -- batches have a time when

the "csi" affect holds true. they think there is a new threshold now. in the old days, we could present a witness who would identify the defendant, there was no dna, and we were able to obtain convictions for sexual assault. now, and in our state, jurors can ask questions, we get pages of questions. was dna done? why wasn't it done? sometimes, because dna is a complex chemical analysis, the questions get a very detailed. some jurors asked a very complex medical questions during the trial of the sexual assault case. it is very important not to lose sight of the fact that if you do not have dna, you still have to fall back on all the things we learned when we prosecuted sexual assault before.

interview as many people as possible. it is very useful to tape record interviews. it is very useful to get other kinds of evidence that corroborates what the victim has to say, even if you do get dna. you should not stop there. continue to get all of that evidence because you do not now. maybe the dna will not be admissible later on. it is still critical to investigate these crimes as thoroughly as possible. >> thank you. one of the things you talked about was kids at the scene and kids living in the home. i remember the statistic, a kid growing up in a violent home, there were 76 times more likely to commit crimes themselves. we had a picture in our office about woman with a band-aid on her nose holding a baby and said, beat your wife and your

son will go to jail. has there been more interaction with child protection, bringing them in so kids get help when they live in the home, and kids can be witnesses, too, and what has been happening with that? if we look of the authorization, we should be looking at this aspect as well. >> they do for the opportunity to talk about children living in violent homes. i agree with you. kids are at particular risk. kids are 300 times more likely to be abused themselves. it is incredibly distressing. kids growing up in violent homes are more likely to commit crimes and they are likely to have been abused. a child is witnessing domestic violence and they are suffering from abuse. there have been great strides made. i have -- i can talk about vermont.

i am proud of vermont and the work they have done. they have created the opportunity for us to create a unique and innovative relationship with our children's protective services division of our state government. we were able to provide training for child abuse investigators in that unit. they are experts at working with victims of domestic violence and their kids. victims of domestic violence were almost held accountable for the abuses their children were suffering at the hands of their abusers. in vermont, this program allows investigators to go in and do an investigation. instead of blaming the victim for the abuse, they work with the victim to provide them with the support they need to be able to make choices about living in the home. >> very good. miss union, you did such a good job of talking about how you had

been raped in an area that have the resources. i very much resonated with that. i have seen that in smaller counties that do not have the research. they may not have the expertise sometimes in cases. or, you have a rape crisis center that does not have the resources. the issue of the rape kit was brought up earlier. i wonder, for anyone who has knowledge, we have been hearing there have been efforts to make victim's pay for them, or they are paying for them, and they have to be paid back by the state. any comments on that? >> we have been having this discussion for the last few years. i live in california. there's a backlog. i worked closely with ucla rape crisis centers. when your dna is collected, it is put in a brown bag. it goes on the counter. i see the line of brown bags, of

children, women, men. you become this brown bag. >> this is dna that could connect people to a crime and identify perpetrators. >> yes. you know after working in this business, everyone who deals with rape and domestic violence, you realize there is a priority at this place on certain brown bags. they call them "sexy victim's." the victim is generally a white woman, preferably young, formally educated, ideally attractive, even better, cases that can get media attention and are slam dunks. if you are not a sexy victim, which includes african- americans, latinos come anybody who is not a young, white, educated, attractive woman is not deemed a sexy victim. those cases are the ones that make up the bulk of the backlog cases.

it is so transparent. when you sit there and you see the role of these brown bags, it breaks your heart. when i talk to rape victims in the united states, i have to give them the same spiel because the likelihood of justice that you think you're going to get because you watch "csi," i watched -- i gave them my dna, my rapist will be apprehended, i will get justice, i can get on the path of recovery, and it does not work like that for the majority of people. when you prioritize certain people, we create a parallel universe of justice. that has to stop. >> to end here, i noticed that -- thank you for that. . as we look at this and the tools we need in the criminal justice system, sometimes, lots and funding to set back in a time before we had the extent of that

technology we have and the state laws we have now. that is why we have such an opportunity to look at what we should be doing differently. i will point out on a positive note, you said that taxpayers were being saved 14 $20 billion in cost in the first six years alone. do you want to comment on that and where you see those savings? >> i want to say that in 1984, when i was a young person in cleveland, ohio, i live next door to a family where the husband was pilot. we had to tell the officers there is a burglar outside our house to get them to respond. they would not come to the house of which called the police. that family was left -- there were no support. there was no prosecution. the family was poor.

they used social service system. there lot was fairly hopeless. today, that same family would be embraced with a social services net that would, especially with the new economic justice work we're doing in our movement, would not only help them maintain safety, but help them move forward in their economic goals. for me, it is money well spent. >> thank you. part of the successes we have had with some of challenges, the successes are a tribute to all of you and the way this movement has developed on the grass roots level with victim saying, i will not take it anymore, being willing to come forward and speak. i want to thank you for that. we're looking forward to working on this. it is a bipartisan effort, strong support from both sides of the aisle. i just want to thank you and wish you well.

your courage is unbelievable and it is going to make a difference. thank you very much. this hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2009] >> congress returns with lots of business to attend to before leaving for their august recess. the house returns to p.m. on tuesday. agriculture spending -- a bill that includes money for programs such as food stamps, farm subsidies, and rural development. also, a bill to expand small business innovation. the house is live on c-span. the senate is back on monday at 2:00 p.m. eastern to resume work on legislative branch spending for 2010 with the votes on amendments scheduled to begin at 5:30.

they will move on to homeland security spending for 2010. the senate health committee will continue marking up their version of the health care bill and al franken is scheduled to meet with harry reid on monday. live coverage of the senate is always on c-span2. >> these places remind me of modern cathedrals. >> walter kirn would like to see changes to the higher education system. >> i think princeton philosophy lectors should be on the web -- lectures should be on the web. these wonderfully concentrated on islands of talent and wealth and area edition should be opened up to the larger society, not cultish lee kept separate, which they still are. i do not understand why. >> walter kirn on "q&a," sunday

night at 8:00 p.m. on c-span. you can also listen on satellite radio or download the c-span podcast. >> we begin our look at white house policy advisers from richard nixon to george w. bush. they will discuss their relationship with ge executives beginning at 8:00 p.m. eastern. tomorrow, their experience is trying to sell policy agendas to congress and the public. that is saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. they will wrap up with lessons learned from serving under chief executive sunday at 4:25 p.m. eastern here on c-span. here's a look ahead to some of the upcoming guests on "washington journal." tomorrow, the washington editor for "harper's magazine" on his lobbying efforts against the employees free choice act. richard miniter joins us to talk about iraq, the administration, and health care. monday, henry waxman on the

clean air act comes to reduce in major league baseball, and the current debate on health care. "washington journal" begins each day at 7:00 a.m. eastern here on c-span. associated press reporter jennifer loven joined us this morning to talk about her recent interview with president obama. this is about 25 minutes. back -- we want to welcome back jennifer loven from the associated press. you talk with the president on the detainees. what did you learn? guest: i was surprised at his answer. the question was -- he had made this proposal to go to congress to " try to create a new legal framework for holding some terrorist suspects indefinitely, which would be a huge change in the sort of legal jurisprudence system and our country. so the question was, that the president, as a former teacher of constitutional law himself, felt comfortable with the idea of creating this new framework

and having that as his legacy? i was surprised that he said yes, he is uncomfortable with it, and he says it gives him great pause. as he goes forward with congress to try to figure out a way to do this, he may in fact in the end become uncomfortable with it and abandon the idea altogether, which raises all sorts of questions about what you would do with these people, that presumably small set of people in that group who can neither be prosecuted for a whole host of reasons, or police because they are too dangerous. host: you brought up the issue of the deadline they have imposed. have they boxed themselves in because they want to do it in a year? guest: of course. aid is an incredibly complicated task they're going to undertake. maybe robert gibbs does not say this as much in the briefings, but you have to set a deadline

to get something done. they're going to say that they are determined to meet that deadline up to the very last minute if they have to extend it. it is an incredibly complicated task to figure out which detainees fall into categories, what to do with them, where to prosecute them, how to hold them and they are convicted -- if they are convicted, and the questions are endless. with all the other proposals letter taking up congress' time, it is not something the congress is digging into yet. host: when congress comes back next week, you will be leaving with the president to travel to russia, gonnhana. guest: he will have his first moscow summit with russian leaders. the main agenda item is the attempt to get a new arms reduction treaty with moscow.

the current one expires in december, so there is a deadline to get that done. the president hopes to give a speech in moscow, yet another set piece. he is hoping it will kind of lay out his priorities, his agenda in terms of restarting the relations with russia, the u.s. relations with russia. then he goes on, as you know, to italy for the group of a summit. that has been a traditional -- for the group of eight summit. he will meet with the pope while he is there, meet with italian leaders as well, then he makes his first trip as president to africa, and he chose ghana to do that. he will give a speech there as well host: you c.

host: this interview conducted yesterday from the diplomatic reception room at the white house. >> prime minister putin still has a lot of sway in russia, and i think that it is important that even as we move forward with president medvedev, that bruton -- that putin understands that the old cold war u.s.- russia relations is outdated. i think medvedev understands that, i think putin has 1 foot in the old ways of doing business and 1 foot in the new. to the extent that we can provide him and the russian people a clear sense that the u.s. is not seeking an antagonistic relationship but once corp. on nuclear non- proliferation, -- wants

cooperation on nuclear non- proliferation, fighting terrorism -- guest: you think the meeting with the prime minister can pull them out of this old way of thinking? >> i think that they're hearing the same things and seeing the same things so they can move in concert and cooperate on critical issues. host: jennifer loven, do you have any sense on how the russian president and use president obama? guest: i think he sees both encouraging and discouraging things for russia, which is typical of how russia postures in the world these days. president medvedev has talked encouragingly about president obama's upcoming trip, how he wants to make progress, how he is looking and seeing encouraging signs about the arms reduction treaty that we talked about. at the same time, russia is still clearly prime minister,

former president, putin, as you heard president obama talk about them is still the dominant force in russian politics these days. so there is a lot of posturing about russian power. there are concerns in the region that there will be another georgia, a neighboring country of russia. there is a one hand, on the other hand host: we have some pictures this morning courtesy of the u.s. military. vice-president biden is in baghdad today. he had a meeting with general o de haren el -- with general odierno. can you give us the background on yet another surprise visit to iraq that began with president bush, when he traveled to iraq on thanksgiving several years

ago. guest: is a big week there, the withdrawal of u.s. troops from all the iraqi cities, a big milestone in the war. it keeps the u.s. on pace to meet the schedule of withdrawing troops laid out by obama himself and the agreement with the iraqis. so, in the context of this, president obama has tapped the vice-president to be his point man on iraq. so it is a very timely time for all biden to go there. it is not often a leader of his level spend a couple of days in iraq. so it is very interesting. one thing that the president raised yesterday was the notion of keeping to this schedule, and he and other officials talked very candidly about the fact that violence will increase now that the troops are not in the cities any more patrolling.

what i asked him was whether he thinks that there is a level of violence or he has a concern that they could reach a point where he has to rethink his schedule, where there is a graduated phase, but all trips are essentially gone by 2011. he said he is confident but not certain that it would be kept. host: our guest can be seen in most newspapers as one. whizzes on the phone from texas. -- liz is on the phone from texas with jennifer loven. caller: good morning. i am interested in the issue of bringing gtmo prisoners to the united states. the consumer -- we cannot buy anything if we do not have any money. now, for your guest i want to ask you -- is it simply a political issue that is

preventing us from bringing these prisoners to the united states? you know, we build prisons quicker than we build schools. i do not know why we could not build a prison that holds them, say, in leavenworthkansas. i do not understand -- i do get the military tribunal for national security issues. a u.s. court -- we are able to do this. i just do not understand why. guest: that is a very good point. you nailed it. it is a political discussion, of course. this is washington, and when you are talking about complicated issues, national security issues, there is a little bit of posturing on both sides. but it is true. there are terrorist in prisons now in the united states. and ones that we consider pretty dangerous that were convicted in u.s. courts and are being held

safely in u.s. prisons. president obama has made the point himself. we can do it safely. some of the outcry of, how can we possibly bring these people here is a little bit of a canard. host: the person who typically get the first question of these briefings, this tweet asks, how would you describe the when mr. gibbs conduct the daily briefing? >> he wants to get me in trouble. i think every press secretary has his or her unique style as to how they deal with bedroom. it is an incredibly difficult job. i certainly could not do it. it is the hot seat in every sense of the word. robert gibbs likes to use a lot of humor and sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. it can be tense. it can be combative.

sometimes, the person up there at the podium handles that well and sometimes they don't. sometimes they score points and sometimes they do not. i said, mr. gibbs has an edge and he is not afraid to use it. use host: our next call is from sandy it -- " caller: you made a statement about mr. putin having 1 foot in the old ways of russia. and, you had made is how do we make him change politically on what they want to do as a country. we seem to be trying to get involved in a lot of politics. the issue i guess, and the bottom line, i guess is -- it becomes a political issue with the united states and the congress trying to make the

world more safe and everything else. i think we have kind of proven that we have made a lot of mistakes in these last, i guess -- i will be honest with you, in the last 10 to 15 years. and the issue about gtmo and everything else, the terrorists and everything else, again, you are right. to me is a political issue with congress and everything else, -- to me, it is a political issue with congress and everything else. so let's go ahead and consider russia a quagmire. do you think president obama is trying to mate not the world, but -- is trying to make not the world, but the united states, more honest with the people in europe, russia, and also in the middle east? guest: that is a very interesting question, and i do think that is exactly what president obama hopes to do.

whether he can, of course, as a whole other story. but he would like to. we have heard him use that "press the reset button" phrase with russia. but he really wants to do that with several different parts of the world, whether it is the europe or the muslim world. with russia, i think his comments about putin yesterday were pretty provocative. but underneath that, i think what he meant -- and you have to understand a little bit of russian history. russians feel like they have lost their global stature, and prudent is someone they see who helped them gain summit -- and who can -- and vladimir putin is someone they see who help them gain some of it back. so i think underlying what mr. obama said yesterday is how do you move russia, and

particularly britaputin, beyondt thinking? host: in dealing with highly charged questions about the racial issue, the cord was moving away from affirmative action. >> i have always believed that affirmative-action was less of an issue, or should be less of an issue, then it has been made out to be in news reports. it has not been as potent a force for racial progress as advocates would claim, and it has not been as bad on, you

know, white students seeking admission or seeking a job as its critics have said. i think every kid from the time they are born, we should make sure they are getting a good education, good nutrition, is succeeding from k through 12. when everybody has a level playing field, everybody is competing, and we have dealt with some of the legacies of discrimination that have resulted in substandard schools or extreme poverty in some communities, then affirmative- action ends up being an afterthought. guest: i think that was an incredibly nuanced answer about affirmative-action and race, which of course we heard the

president talk about that in vain before when he was a candidate. again, he still believes that affirmative action could be helpful in certain circumstances in hiring and emissions -- and admissions type decisions. but he talked about the need for going beyond affirmative action in an interesting way, and i think he was sort of striking a balance, taking both sides of the issue and talking about recent cases. host: this comment from a viewer in maryland -- "everything is beautiful when a candidate is running for the highest office in the land on a platform that the other guy got wrong. but once he has an office committee to complexity hits you in the face and you realize that there are people who want to destroy america and they may not fit neatly into the crest -- into the criminal-justice framework with which you are so comfortable than. welcome to the big leagues. guest: he has made decisions

that have earned him considerable criticism among his supporters in the democratic party for doing that. host: our next caller is from a viewer in grosse pointe, michigan, independent line. caller: good morning. i am getting a little bit of laryngitis year. after listening all morning and through the weeks, and i listened to the callers calling, and i am fascinated at what people expect of one man. he has been in office less than six months, he inherited an awful economy, and i do not think that anybody can think that the global crisis that we face that just occurred -- and nothing that anybody can fix the global economy crisis that we face that just occurred in the past six months. as we have always been told, as

a black man, you cannot be as good as anybody, you have to be twice as good. he is just a man. he is not the one who is here to just save us from everything, and it seems that people expected to be able to solve every crisis that we face. in six months he is supposed to have a game plan to fix both wars, fix the economy, go around the world and make friends again with all the people that we have upset. host: thank you for the call. guest: i think that is a really good point. but americans are impatient, and we want whenever will problems are facing us to be fixed pretty quickly. -- and we want whatever problems are facing us to be fixed pretty quickly. president obama and candidate obama set very high expectations for himself, and he has taken on these giant problems, added giant proposals and initiatives to his own to do

list. some of what we're doing, whether it is us in the media or the public, is trying to hold him to the expectations he has set for himself. host: i want to get your reactions to a announcement written up in "the washington times" yesterday. while he is in russia and italy, the white house, with the secretary of health and human services, kathleen sebelius, will have an all-day summit next week. can you explain? guest: i think we have all forgotten that this flu is out there, but it is still a threat. officials were talking about the fact that we could get a second wave of the flu season as we approach fall and winter, and so the white house is, i suppose admirably, trying to get ready to this -- trying to get ready for this, and make sure they are prepared. other countries are dealing with cases and deaths from this

fluk. i do not know if it involves as much of a mock exercise as it does to make sure they have all their communications set up with state officials. one of the most important things they can do in a situation like that. host: and from -- a photograph in "the washington post," easter sunday, as they went to church across from the white house. they have not decided on an official church, but they will go to a church on camp david. guest: i am sure it is a difficult decision for him and his family. they had a church home when they lived in chicago, and one of the things that white house officials have talked about both publicly and privately is that it is very difficult for this president to go to a church.

it could possibly -- not possibly, probably -- inconvenience the people who are there, it could crowd the church, and it could make it difficult for everyone there to worship as they want to, and also for him. this is a decision they have not been able to come to a conclusion on yet. host: john is on the phone from ventura, california. a lot of california collars up early this morning. caller: thank you. it is nice to be up and listening to c-span. when you are on your way to russia and the president is thinking that we have -- that russia has the economic problems and military problems that we have. so does europe, so do we. you go back to world war ii, we all had the same. a full war, the zero consumer spending. all three seem to be interested in consumer spending to get them

to finance everything. in the war, they had consumer spending to finance nothing. maybe now they need to compromise, maybe half consumer spending, have government spending on the very things that obama says we need, and they would be pretty much the same things that the russians need. reporters like yourself and the whole media never bring up the previous subject, we had no appointment -- a dozen across your mind as you are with him that you should be thinking of the world war ii example and thinking in general terms? host: john, pickup paul krugman's piece in "the new york times," because he talks about the 1937 example and that it was the jobs program that got us out of the recession.

guest: i will think about it now. i am not an expert in world war ii era economic policies, but it looks like something to look into it and bone up on. host: on the issue of sanctions toward -- >> i think the sanctions regime after the nuclear tests and missile launches by north korea have been robust, in part because russia and china had be willing to go -- had been willing to go further than they had been in the past. in my conversation with president medvedev, he has acknowledged that iran's development of a nuclear weapon would be a destabilizing force in the international community, and that he is interested in working with us in trying to find a way that iran can step away on this issue. so far at least we have seen

good cooperation on these issues. >guest: he did not get military force, though. wasn't russia the obstacle? >> no, what i think we sought is the most robust sanctions regime we have ever seen, with respect to north korea, in international diplomacy, people tend to want to go in stages. what we are seeing right now is that implementation of the sanctions procedure was set up, is going very well. guest: but you think there is room for more later? >> the is potentially room for more later. but keep in mind, what we are also trying to do is keep the door open for north korea to start acting in a responsible way, to recognize that a denuclearized korean peninsula is the only way that they are going to achieve the kind of

commercial ties and development opportunities that can be good for their people, and we want them to know that that is still available. host: russia's involvement in all of this. china and its input in north korea. what did you learn? guest: russia and china have always had obstacles to getting strong sanctions, either against iran or north korea for their nuclear program. with the president is referring to is the fact that he got russia and china on board for a fairly aggressive regime against north korea after its nuclear tests and some other missile launches that they have done in the recent months. .

pastry chef and said any kind of pie that you might want, the pastry chef can make the best pies you ever had and said it is a challenge to the waistlines of the first family. i asked basketball questions, asked him to choose between kobe bryant and michael jordan. he didn't miss a beat before he picked michael jordan. i asked him about pet peeves with aides and he had to think about that but he said it was the powder they put on his face all the time when he is walking around if h

thanks terry much for being with us. guest: thanks so much. >> alaska gov. sarah palin announced today that she will not seek a second term in office and will resign in a few weeks. she tends -- she intends to transfer power. politico writing that the stunning decision could allow her to run for president more easily but also brings up questions about the situation at home. governor palin made the announcement about three hours ago. >> we are doing so well, my administration. our accomplishments speak for themselves. we've worked tirelessly for alaskans. we aggressively and responsibly develop our resources because they were created to be used to better our world, to help people, and we protect the environment and alaskans, the resourcefulness, for most of our

policies. here are some of the things we have done -- we created a petroleum integrity office to oversee state development. we held the line for alaskans on point thomson, and for the first time in decades, you are seeing drilling for oil and gas. we have the gas line project, and massive bipartisan victory. the vote was 58 to one. also succeeding as intended. protecting alaskans as our clean, natural gas will flow to energize alaska and america. it is very different from what had happened before. this time, it is through a very competitive price. this is the largest private sector energy project ever. this is energy independence. and aces, another bipartisan effort. it is working as intended, and industry is publicly acknowledging its success. our new oil and glass -- gas clear and equitable formula so alaskans will never be taken

advantage of. aces incentivizes new exploration and development and jobs that were previously not going to happen, now with an monopolized more slope oil basin. the usher in a bipartisan ethics reform. we also slowed the rate of government growth. we worked with the legislature to save billions of dollars for our future, and i made no lobbyist friends with my hundreds of millions of dollars in budget vetoes, but living beyond our means today is irresponsible for tomorrow. we took the government out of the dairy business and put it back into the private sector's hands where it should be. we provided unprecedented support for education initiatives. with the right leadership, we finally filled long vacant positions. we built a cabin for climate change, and we took heat from outside special interests for

our biologically sound wildlife management for abundance practices, predator control. we broke new ground on the state's new prison. and we made common sense, a conservative choices to eliminate personal luxuries. things like the jet and the chef and the junkets and the entourage, and the lieutenant governor and i said no to our pay raises. this success i am proud to take credit for. hiring the right people. our goal was to achieve a gas line project and more fair valuation and ethics reform in four years. we did it in two, and it is because of the people. good people, good public servants surrounding the governor's office. they are alaska success.

we are doing well, and i wish you would hear more from the media and how we tackle special insist daily. those interests that would stymie our state. even those debt-ridden stimulus dollars that would force the heavy hand of federal government into our committees with an all- knowing attitude. i have taken the slings and arrows with that unpopular move because to be towed back -- it was the right thing to do. i know being right is better than being popular, and it was not a popular stand to take. some of those dollars would harm alaska. they harm american. i resisted those dollars because of the obscene national debt that we are forcing our children to pay because of today's big government spending. it is the moral, and it does not even make economic sense. another accomplishment -- our law department predicted state's rights. two huge u.s. supreme court reversals came down against that liberal ninth circuit, deciding

in our states favor just over the last two weeks. we are protectors of our constitution. you do not hear much about the good stuff in the press any more, though, do you? some say things changed for me on august 29 last year, the day that john mccain tapped me to be his running mate, and it was an honor to stand beside a true american hero. i say other states, and let me speak to that for a minute. political operatives descended on alaska last august digging for dirt. the ethics law that i champion became their weapon of choice over the past nine months. i have been accused of also says frivolous ethics violations -- all sorts of service at this violations like holding a fish in a photograph and answering reporters' questions. every one of these complaints have been dismissed. we have one, but it has not been

cheap. the state has wasted thousands of hours of your time and shelled out some 2 million of your dollars to respond to the opposition research, and that is money that is not going to fund teachers or troopers or safer roads. this political absurdities, the politics of personal destruction -- we are looking at more than $500,000 in legal bills just in order to set the record straight. what about the people who offer of these silly accusations? it does not cost them a dime, so they are not going to stop draining public resources, spending other people's money in this game. it is pretty insane. my staff and i spend most of our day dealing with this stuff instead of progress in our state. i know that i promised no more politics as usual, but this is not what anyone had in mind for alaska. if i have learned one thing, it is that life is about choices,

and one issues as how to react to circumstances. you can choose to react to things that teardown or that build up, and i choose to work hard on a path for fruitful this and productivity. i choose not to tear down and waste precious time, but to build up this state and our country and her industrious and generous and patriotic and free people. life is too short to compromise time and resources. though it may be tempting and more comfortable to keep your head down and plot along and appease those who are demanding says sit down and shut up, but that is a worthless, easy path. that is a clear is way out. i think a problem in our country today is apathy. it would be apathetic to just hunker down and go with the flow. we know that only dead fish go with the flow. no productive -- productive, full of people choose where to put their efforts, choosing to

wisely utilize precious time to build up, and there is such a need to build up and fight for our state and country, and i choose to fight for it, and i will work very hard for others who still believe in free enterprise and smaller government and strong national security for our country and support for our troops and energy independence. for those who will protect freedom and equality and life. i will work hard for and campaign for those who are proud to be american and who are inspired by our ideals and they will not divide them. i will support others who seek to serve in or out of office, and i do not care what party they are in one of party at all. inside alaska or outside alaska. but i will not do it from the governor's desk. i've never believed that i nor anyone else needs a title to do this, to make a difference, to help people. so i choose for my state and for my family more freedom to progress, all the way around so

that the last to make progress. i will not seek reelection as governor. and as i thought about this announcement that i would not run for reelection in what that means for alaska, i thought about how much fun some governors have as lame ducks. they travel around the estate, travel to other states, maybe take their overseas international trade missions -- so many politicians do that, and i thought that is what is wrong. many just except that lame-duck status. they hit the road, drawing a paycheck, kind of milk it. i will not put alaskans through that. i promised efficiencies and effectiveness. that is not how i'm wired. i'm not of wired to operate under the same old politics as usual. i promised that four years ago. i am determined to take the right path for alaska, even though it is unconventional and not so comfortable. with this announcement that i'm not seeking reelection, i have

determined it is best to transfer the authority of governor to the lieutenant governor. >> alaska gov. sarah palin saying that she plans to hand over the reins of the state government to the lieutenant governor, who will be sworn in at the governor's thick neck in fairbanks on july 25. you can see the governor palin's remarks again just before 8:00 p.m. eastern time here on c- span. >> and we get more from this morning's "washington journal." for the magazine. let me begin with the headline. you say that this falls short of a serious energy policy.

host: can you elaborate? guest: barack obama has said to this day that we cannot drill our way out of our energy problems. that is true. there are other things besides drilling for oil that we need to do. but drilling for oil is one thing we definitely need to do. it is a necessary but not sufficient solution to our problems. we have a remarkable amount of oil but we can get at. when barack obama it is artificially sustaining the of the industry's -- the automotive industries that do not pay as well as the oil and gas industry and are not as central to our economic life in some ways, he is doing everything he can to make it difficult to drill for more will.

most of the safety and environmental concerns that people have about oil drilling do not have much merit, i think. if you take the global warming argument out of it for a moment, it is idiotic not to drill for more oil in the united states. host guest: that is right. india and china alone and are going to outstrip us in terms of greenhouse gases very quickly. i think china already has. china is building a cold-fired -- coal-fired plant every 10 days. they have no interest in agreeing to capping or limiting their production of fossil fuels

and greenhouse gases. anything that we do on this front is remarkably negligible. it will have the unintended consequence of outsourcing carbon-dependent jobs to countries where it is cheaper to use them. at the same time, the obama administration and others will say that cap and tree does not do much on its own. it does a lot of bad, but not much good on its own. they will say that we need to lead the world by example. that is undermined by the fact that for 30 years, we have made it very difficult to drill for oil and natural gas in the united states. no one has followed that example. if you tell someone in brazil, saudi arabia, or the united kingdom not to drill for oil because they should follow our noble example, they would laugh in your face. the production of greenhouse gases will continue whether we

pass this or not. we're just cobbling ourselves. i would put the emphasis on nuclear, carbon sequestration, agricultural policies. but cap and trade strikes me as a profoundly wrong way to pursue this stuff. host: congressman waxman will be with us for an hour on monday. we will ask him about that. this book came out two years ago. in the book, you say this. guest: if people want to read

more about the book, they can go to c-span.org and look up one of the speeches i gave on the book. the basic argument of the book that i make is essentially that fascism was always a phenomenon of the left. the national socialists, mussolini was a socialist. i argue that american progressivism that was a progressive revolution was part of the same moment and intellectual life. american progressivism borrowed great number of ideas from the same occurrence that led to italian fascism and vice versa. the argument in the book is for people who know nothing about it. it is not that i think american liberals arnaz these -- levels are mab -- liberals -- i am not

saying that think american liberals are nazis that want to put people into camps. case in point is the barack obama campaign. he ran as a spiritualized figure. there was all of the messiah talk. there was this deification of the masses. his volunteers were told not to talk about issues. instead, they were told to testify about how they came to obama in the way that one would talk about coming to jesus. michele obama talked about fixing people's souls. this is very much keeping with italian fascism and others on the left. the idea that we can find

spiritual sustenance in politics was central to the obama campaign. there is this idea that we must rally behind the charismatic leader, putting aside all of our differences. still to this day, barack obama talked about putting aside etiology while he hasn' an incredibly ecological movement. i made all of these predictions about where liberalism was going in terms of economics. we see big government and big business getting in bed together. we saw wal-mart getting in bed with big government. all of that was written about a year before i knew who barack obama really was. host: he is also a contributor to the fox news channel. we have a telephone call from here in washington, d.c., on the democrats' line. caller: most of the crude oil we

get in the united states is not fit for consumption in the united states. that is why we sell the majority of it overseas. it would be too costly for us to purify to use it here. conservatives are the ones that believe that people ought to be kept at certain levels and if they break the law, they should be in jail. they are more of the mind where individuals should be held to a certain standard. liberals are more likely to work with people for results instead of, with a stern. of view about how something should proceed. guest: those are interesting points. on the oil part, i do not think

he can speak as if all of the oil iunder the control of the united states is all unsuitable for american production. i do not think that is true of the oil in the gulf of mexico. it is true of the oil-field in the upper west that has an enormous amount of oil in it, but it is mostly in shale. it is very expensive to get out and is not cost-effective yet. on fascism, that is an odd argument. i do like the idea that conservatives believe that people who break the law should go to jail whereas liberals do not. i am not sure how that fits into the fascist paradigm. i am perfectly plaid to take the rap as a conservative that we think that people that break the

lock should go to jail. host: would you put barack obama into the same category as barack obama? in terms of his ability to excite the public and communicate a message? guest: it certainly seems that we so far. there are very few politicians that you can think of like that. ronald reagan was one, bobby kennedy was another. i think barack obama fits the mold that he is true to his word that he wants to be a transformational president. i do think he has a healthy ego about his own role in society. there is a practical aspect to this period as inspirational as he is rigid there is a practical aspect to this.

as inspirational as he is, those things are less important trade is not a big thing that a president can get a rally going. he has to be able to implement policies that are successful. as a candidate, he is very similar to ronald reagan in that respect. they are different illogically. as a president, remains to be seen. it is beginning to look like he has written off more than he can chew. if the policies fail, if the economy keeps getting worse, if we have crazy inflation, i do not think it matters how inspirational he was. the policies themselves will swamp that. host: do you tweet? guest: i do not. i never thought that the world was suffering for a lack of outlets for me to express my opinions. host: she is asking if you

recall george w. bush a fascist. guest: of recall many aspects of george bush -- in the book, i say that he flirted with fascism. i do not think that george bush implemented a police state in the united states. people who think that would have to explain why barack obama has not continued that since he has adopted almost wholesale all the policies enacted by bush. host: we have a telephone call from oregon. caller: i am concerned about the aspect of drilling again. i come from down below loss angeles before. -- i come from down below los

angeles before. i have dealt with the pollution there. it is mostly from automobiles. i am concerned about how we do not fade away from the situation that is killing us, in a sense. if you look around the world, we're going down the forests everywhere. we are dissolving the filtered situation of the planet. we are pleading on top of that. i get frustrated when people want to delve back into drilling. look at the skillpills that have contaminated areas. do we have to compete that much with the rest of the planet? do we need to set an example before we destroy the whole ecosystem to where none of us

are doing any good? guest: i think he very well expresses the mindset that oil is sort of the poison running through mother earth. 1. i made in the piece is that hatred of oil pre-dates any notion of global-warming. the idea that oil is the lifeblood of capitalism and therefore bad, comes before we were even talking about the fear of a coming ice age. i understand those concerns. there are legitimate environmental problems. deforestation is one of them. the state of the oceans is abysmal. it is important to tease out some of these things. the danger of oil spills has been greatly reduced.

i concentrated on offshore drilling. the safety and environmental record of the oil platforms is astounding in terms of what man can accomplish these days. it is much safer than 40 years ago with the santa monica oil spill that launched the environmental movement in this country the oil tankers to need work. one reason why drilling on our own soil makes sense is because you have to rely on fewer oil tankers from around the world. i think you have to disaggregate some of these things. the caller was trying to make this an indictment of oil. you have to make it more practical issue. we're never going to convince the rest of the world to stop

drilling for oil because we have stopped. what will get people to stop drilling is one we find a better fuel than oil. right now, we do not have won. oil is a great fuel for the things that it is good for. i hope that someday soon, we come up with the battery technology, the hydrogen fuel cells, and the other things that will help to make will obsolete. we are not close to that yet. host: you point out that you cannot travel to the oil rigs in the gulf of mexico without a hard hat and safety goggles. guest: i went out there at the middle of last month. i had to do some sea survival training. i had to get in a helicopter simulators and crashed into a swimming pool. i had to learn how to make a flotation device out of my jumpsuit.

i have been to anwar as well. what impressed me was how deadly seriously these people take environmental safety. people are talking about good jobs. nancy pelosi said the bill was about jobs, jobs, jobs. i think that was a good indication that it was not a bout jobs. these green jobs are mostly part-time, short-term jobs weatherizing grandmother's attic. on the other hand, these are excellent jobs for people who are not college educated. as the classic blue collar job. we're not killinghe