it seemed like two or three minutes after we got the message that the door to the emergency room came open, and a patient was role theled in.. that was governor connally. they had to get the governor out of the way, and brought him in first. . . and he was actually unconscious from the abnormal breathing that results from that large wound. we knew he was hurt badly. we figured we could treat him if that was all that was wrong and we knew it wasn't the president. it didn't occur to either delaney or i who it was. we were only interested in who it wasn't.

and it was not the president. so we heaved this great sigh of relief and said, you know, maybe it's a secret service man, so we'll take care of him. we rolled him into trauma room we rolled him into trauma room two which is really the biggest trauma room. >> did that cause you to divide your team up in any sense? in terms of expertise. >> not really. parkland then and now is the contingency. i mean, there's a -- you start -- you have a team, but you have tremendous backup. so you can always get more help -- i guess nothing is always, but you can handle an immense amount of work when you need to. but delaney and i went into the room with him, and we knew the rest of the support is on the way. the way you treat a wound like that is you plug the hole. basically when you breathe, air goes in here. when you have a hole this big, air goes in there. so you plug that hole, and you plug that hole and then the air starts going in the right way and the governor started waking up. the -- so about that time,

another patient was rolled in to trauma room one. and delaney and i kind of looked at each other and i'm not sure we decided but basically we decided delaney would stay with the governor and i'd go about -- go see about the patient in the other room. that's how i ended up being in the president's room. >> and in that room, do you recall at that time who was there exactly when -- >> mrs. kennedy was kind of standing by the door. my recollection is there were two men in the room, and i assume they were the driver secret service people. they very rapidly stepped aside when we came in. and -- >> did anybody -- did mrs. kennedy speak to you or any of the other people? >> i don't recall any spoken interchange. >> getting out of your way? >> yeah. they clearly saw we were coming

in to take care of things, and mrs. kennedy as i recall stood by the door for a long time. and the two gentlemen -- i never saw them again, that i rec niltzed. >> from this point, probably you're going to need as much as you can to give us sort of specific descriptions that a medical professional would recognize. what you saw, how you approached the problem, who was doing what. >> ok. the -- the people that were there were -- that i remember and i'm sure there were others, were myself. a nurse, diane bowen, i think, and two interns. marty white who's now -- well, head of the organ bank here in dallas. a lot of people still around.

and an oral surgery resident whose name i don't remember right now. oral surgery intern. so that was the team. your job in a patient who's severely injured kind of goes in the steps of do what takes -- keeps each patient alive, then you go back and evaluate the injuries in more detail and make your long-term plan. first, you need a way to breathe second you have to be breathing and third your heart has to be pumping and fourth, head has got to be working, your nervous system has to work. your job is to see what's going of within the airways and breathing and see what's going won the circulation. then you look at neurological function. the -- usually one person kind of takes charge and one team gets some i.v.'s going to get circuit -- to support circulation and the nurse gets them undress and keeps things

going. that's what we did. marty white and the other intern started doing a cutdown on the president's right ankle, i think. cutdown is where you start an i.v. by making an incision and putting a big tube in the vein to get a lot of blood and fluid. diane and looked at the president overall, saw he was breathing very eradically. calledding aenal respiration. >> the impression was that he was not dead at this point, he was dead at this point? do you do this anyway? >> yeah. we looked at him, and he still had had some breathing and heart beat. he had a terrible-looking wound, but you kind of defer later to evaluating in detail. the principal is you have somebody who is got a -- what looks like a terrible injury and his did. first thing you do is do the things i talked about. get the airway going, get them

breathing, then you see -- then you have time to evaluate the extent of the injury. i told folks before that the thoughts that i remember going through my head takes longer to describe them than it took to happen were first the president's had it, he's not going to make it. and that was right. the second is we've got to do something. that was the political and the medical thoughts. we can't let the president die. third thought was, gorbachev, what if we get him alive and he's a vegetable? and the rational thought was treat this patient like anybody else, get his airway under control, get him breathing, get his circulation going, then you can decide about all that other situation. so that's what we did. >> well, you obviously must have really felt such a responsibility.

were you thinking in terms of history or, gosh, this is -- >> well -- >> this is on my shoulders? >> this was brief thoughts. it took that long to happen, where the nonmedical thoughts, if you will. i mean, i guess my major thoughts were, you know, i didn't think about the historical impact, what that that's going to do. our job is to take care of the president. we got kind of a reputation of medicine and everything else on our back for a second then. and then that's where the rational thoughts took over and said, ok, we know how to do this. whether this is the president or whoever, we know how to take care of this guy. so it became pretty much unemotional and not automatic, but dispassionate at that point. >> professional aspect kicked in as i think it did with law enforcement agents and recorders and everything. >> right.

so there's that short personal emotional, what am i going to do feeling and then the personal aspect kicked in and you know what to do, you're trained to do. >> ok. go ahead from that point -- >> so the procedure then is to first see if the president's -- if the president has an airway and he really didn't. we see this wound up here and the side of his head. >> that was readily apparent? >> oh, yes. >> he was laying on his back. >> he was laying on his back. >> he came in and -- >> that was obvious. >> this is the part you want to kind of illustrate that in terms of where on his head and if it's -- what did you see? >> that's fine. it's kind of out of order medically, but probably in order forensically. what i remember -- and i was telling dr. montgomery earlier, with the president laying on his back, i could see the whole wound in his head. and that's important because that really doesn't fit perfectly what we wrote down

later. so that meant it had on the -- it had to be in the -- well, it was about right here as i recall and about as big as i'm showing with my hand. a big chunk of bone and scalp missing. the fact you could see it from the front and this involved the parietal bone which is this big skull bone and this big skull bone. so we saw that hole. we saw -- he had a little hole right -- >> was that about -- another sort of controversial thing is was this above his carotid line or below it? >> by the time i looked, diane the nurse had started to take his clothes off, which is her job. so we don't know, so it was certainly at the collar line. about right there, to the right of the trachea. and just certainly where his collar should have been. >> she was the one that removed the tie? >> yeah.

i mean -- >> i think it was cut off, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> would that be -- >> that's normal. i was doing other stuff. i was looking at his head and stuff. but what you normally do is take scissors right there or right there. so that both gets the collar and the tie beside the knot and then you take the shirt off. and then you can see if patient's chest, the breathing and all that. so that's -- diane was doing that while i was actually trying to evaluate what we were going to do. i think i just messed up your microphone. >> get it in ok? >> anyway so the next thing since he really wasn't breathing very well, the next thing to do was to try to get him breathing better. and this involved putting in the endotracheal tube which goes through the mouth, down into the wind pipe and you can breathe through. so we got that done, and at that time we could see that there was

some blood beside the larynx which is down deep in the throat. >> oh, ok. along on -- along about here? >> on the inside. >> oh, ok. >> you take a lighted instrument and you look down and see the windpipe inside -- at the bottom of the throat and then you put a tube in it. i looked down in and i could see that there was some bruising and some abnormal swelling over to the right side of the windpipe. and we were able to slip the tube into his trachea and should have been able to breathe better at this point. >> that head wound which you're well aware of and such controversy and various interpretations and so forth, did you have any thought at that point, the direction -- the shot that came from the front, the rear? >> no.

i mean, two answers to that. it -- that's not what you think about at a time like that, although you can't separate thoughts that much. the other is that that wound certainly -- this wound certainly looked like an exit wound. i mean just because things were just really blown away. >> ok. exit towards the back you're saying? >> no, just out. >> just out? >> you've got wounds that go in and go out, this is an out. i think that was the way it looked like. but there was nothing about it that would say whether the entrance had come from the front or from the back. >> i see. >> this looked like where a bullet went out. >> i see. now, this was really in a sense routine, this team worked with these kind of emergencies every day, right? >> correct. and so that aspect of it was not

that unusual for you? >> correct. and also the order of things. you try to keep the patient alive, you try to treat their wounds and then in the patients where you're not successful then we would work with the medical examiner to try to figure out -- help them figure out the forensics. they were really the forensic experts, we provided the clinical information. >> and about as much as we can, clarify the two wounds. did you ever determine exactly in your own mind where the shoulder and neck wound had -- something has come out about gerald ford who is on the warren commission flatly altering a description there that's kind of brought -- stirred the issue up? >> sure. sure. well, the -- the simple answer is that the only wounds i say, the only wounds that we saw were

this wound here and this big hole here. we never saw the wounds in the president's back. the medical process is we got his airway going, then we hooked him up to the ventilator and we're trying to help him breathe. then, you've got to answer, how is his breathing going and to answer that you've got to ask are there any major holes in his chest wall like the governor had in his chest holes which would impair his breathing. so you don't which impairs breathing, so you don't always roll the patient over to look at that, particularly in the situation that we're in, you don't roll the patient over. you put your hands behind the -- from the belt and move up and ensure that the body cavity is

intact. we didn't see any big holes and didn't see what turned out to be small wounds, one over in the shoulder and one in the back of the lower back of the head. so we didn't see the wounds in the back. that's a long answer to a show question. -- to a short question. and the reason we didn't, that was -- at least at that point that was not part of the appropriate medical exam that would require washing the blood off and somebody you're struggling to keep alive, you don't do that. >> is there anything else that you need to fill in here, to declare dead or who called that shot? >> there's some medical stuff which we could fill in briefly. after we got the tube in, tried to breathe for him, he still wasn't breathing very well. his heart rate was slowing down

and his heart actually stopped. when his heart stopped, by that time dr. perry, dr. jones, dr. jenkins, the assistant chief of anesthesia, dr. baxter, a number of people were there, they started c.p.r. because of the concerns other issues, we put chest tubes in both chests, so if you do have a collapsed lung, you can expand it and you can breathe. concern about whether or not the trackal tube was where it should -- trakal tube was where it was supposed to be. and there was an incision in the neck to get a shorter tube in place. that is important -- when it comes to explaining what was

done and what happened in that 20 minutes. the trachia wound went through this wound in the neck and that caused confusion later. that's where it had to be. then the -- we gave him steroids because we had remembered from some stuff in the press that he probably had abnormal adriennal glands. >> you talked about the secret service -- you didn't have his medical record there on hand, as you would have today. >> correct. so at this point we had gotten him breathing and trying to make the circulation better, it wasn't getting better, it was getting worse. we were doing all we could to

get things stable. kent clark, the chief of newero surgery evaluated the head wound in much more detail than i did and kent clark, the chief of neuro surgery is the one who pronounced him dead. >> the priest had come in? >> actually dr. clark said -- he basically said it's time to start resuscitation. for whatever reason the decision not to pronounce the president dead until after the priest had come in and given him his last rites. so we stopped treatment, but dr. clark pronounced him dead after the last rites. >> so from that point what

happened? >> well, from that point my job was -- the medical part, the patient care part of my job was over. had two things to do. one is we had to -- as we do for all patients, write a brief report in the emergency room records of the treem and what we saw and what -- treatments and what we saw and what we did. the other job was to find those three patients who i had been working on before the president came in and take care of them. we did sit down -- i remember one thing. i walked out of the trauma room one, the big emergency room, which 20 minutes before had been a big city county emergency room full of people being treated, etc. all of the patients were gone when i walked out. they had been moved elsewhere. the people in the room were by and large men with coats off,

shirts and ties on and guns on their hip, and a couple were talking on the phone to washington. and that's when i guess really the whole thing kind of hit me. up until then for that brief moment it had been professional work. i walked over there and realized that not only had my world changed, but the whole world changed and it changed that quick. i smoked at that time. it was the cute thing to do. i started up a cigarette. i lighted a cigarette. imagine lighting a cigarette in an emergency room now? it was common then. i lighted a cigarette, and i was trembling so i couldn't hold the

match for the cigarette. got that under control, and sat down to write my recollection. each physician writes their own report independently. there's no proscription exchanging information. you could ask the guy next to you, where was that wound. i do not remember if i did that or not. >> in terms of any conversation that you might have had about the affect on others being a part of that process distribution you all talk about it later, if not then? >> you mean, just how verybody was dealing with it? >> how it affected you personally? >> we -- i'm sure we talked about it some, but we didn't talk about it as a group. and there was none of the debriefing that would happen

now. we just went back to work. we wrote our reports. as you know, by the time that we finished writing our reports, they had taken the president's body away, so our reports did not get to bethesda in time for the autopsy. >> what do you know about that, the conflict of removing the body, state law, autopsy should have been done here. at the time did that seem significant to you that it was removed? >> no, i -- i was a little surprised in a professional sense. as i said, what usually would have happened if a patient came in and died of a gun shot wound, we would have done whatever we had to do medley to keep him alive -- medically to keep him

alive. we probably would have spent more time trying to figure out the forensics ourselves if it wasn't the present, it didn't seem appropriate since it was the president. it wouldn't have mattered. because when earl rose did his autopsy, if he had questions about the treatment, he would call us. as a matter of fact, he called us just to teach us. he would call our house and said here is this patient, tell me what you did, and let me show you how to recognize entrance wounds an exit wounds. so we assume -- and exit wounds. so we assumed that earl rose would do the autopsy when the president was taken away, we realized, gee, the body's gone, earl's not going to do the autopsy, and these guys are not going to have any medical records to go by. but that was kind of the medical

surprise, if you will. didn't think about why they would have done that. >> it wasn't related to competency as -- >> no. earl rose was and i think is still recognized as one of the outstanding forensic pathologists in the country. new president johnson was not willing to leave dallas on air force one without president kennedy's body. >> so you think it was probably his decision as opposed to mrs. kennedy? >> what i heard is that president johnson wouldn't leave without president kennedy's body and i don't know any facts, but it makes sense.

i mean, he was a shrewd politician, and you can imagine the impact of people. he -- if he left the president. >> i recall the interview you had with henry wade, who was the district attorney at the time, and kind of dismissed that as -- he said the only fine was $100 if you removed the body from the state of texas. it wasn't that big a deal in that point of view. >> the law is if there is a murder here, the autopsy examination has to be done here. gosh, it was the president, there's no laws about shot presidents. if i had been a secret service man, i think i would have done the same thing. i would have gotten the president's body out of here, i would have gotten johnson out of

here. the first thought was to get johnson to safety. >> when the autopsy was performed, the information that came back to -- to you or to dallas, how did that come about? what was your reaction then? do you remember? >> well, the first -- we had -- we -- you know, friday night had been busy, we had taken care of those three patients. [both talking] >> saturday morning was our -- our mortality conference. every saturday morning and looked at all of the cases that we had done during the week and anything that had gone wrong, we analyzed what had gone wrong, which is a typical medical approach to things. so we were in our saturday morning conference when the phone rang and it was the

pathologist in bethesda trying to get a hold of dr. malcolm perry to get some medical information. and that was the first time, i think, that the pathologist in bethesda knew what happened here. . all they knew was that there was a hole here and here. because they didn't have medical records, they couldn't figure out how three holes connected. so they called malcolm, and that's when they told him that there was, you know, that these other two wounds were there and that's when it kind of begins to make sense that it went in here, came out here, nicked his trachia, maybe hit his spinal cord, and the other one came through here and blew that big hole. that was the first time that we

can put things -- could put things together in a way that made sense. >> what you heard from him and after those discussions, did it make sense to you? >> yes. because before, you see, this hole and this hole didn't know whether there were holes back here or not and they speculated on how these two could connect. it was hard to make sense of that. >> what about the bullet that went into president kennedy and into governor connolly, is that feasible to you? >> yes, it is. there's been a lot of analysis on that on both sides, and i can't go into it in detail. but certainly the concept that a bullet -- this first bullet went through here and really hit very

hill of the muscle and then went into governor connolly's back, and the first time that it discharged a lot of his energy was coming out through his chest here, and then i guess it hit his right or left wrist. i forgot. it must have been his right wrist and hurt the bone. but if you looked at what terrible destructivewound like this thing was and splattered into his thigh. that sounds like a lot of traveling for a bullet, but it is certainly plausible. bullets do strange things. and that was unlike some of the movie suggesting about -- that's pretty much a straight line. >> you were in that first room working with dr. delaney. did you realize -- [inaudible]

>> you left that room and went to the intersection body and didn't realize that it was the governor? >> no. >> when did you realize that it was kennedy? >> as soon as we walked in the door. that's who we were looking for. you see who you're looking for, we were looking for the president. connolly wasn't him and it -- it didn't really matter who that was, did it, in terms of treating him? we were going to treat him the same as anyone. when i walked in the room and saw it was the president, it was obvious it was him because that's what we were looking for, and, of course, he was very recognizable. >> talk a little bit about [inaudible] >> the -- well, what i know in retrospect, at least what i believe is that president

kennedy had had some severe arthritis, etc., and that been put on steroids for pain relief or for relief of inflammation. and when you put people on big doses on steroids long enough, the adriennal glands -- adenal glands quit -- adrenal glands quit responding. but the way that we had some hint that something was going on -- we were aware of the noise in the press -- some of that noise in the press. somewhere in congress within a few months before the president's assassination, there had been a discussion where somebody had said that the president had addison's disease, and bobby kennedy said that addison's disease is caused by

t.b. my brothers never had t.b., therefore, my brother's doesn't have addison's disease. the logic is there, but the lodge telecommunication a country boy, -- logic to a country boy, that's a little evasive. it is common knowledge -- >> i can recall those rumors. >> those rumor that's he had adrenal deficiency was around. we remembered that, so we gave him steroids early in his treatment. normally you would not do that to somebody in shock. but if their adrenal glands are not working, you do. >> but addison and tb. is not connected. >> medicine is a funny business. there's physical logical

diagnoses -- physilogical diagnoses. and dr. addison described adrenal deficiency from those who had t.b. so addison disease is adenal deficiency from t.b. >> i heard that had you not given him that injection [inaudible] he would have had problems. >> what probably would have happened if he really had adrenal insufficiency, and we think that he did, he never would have responded to the shot, he never would have come out of shock it would have been

more difficult to get the circulation going. what the adrenals do when you get stress, they kick up cortizone and other things which help your body respond. it would have made it difficult for him to come out of shock. but had he lived, he would have still needed steroids long term. but there would have been no injury -- any organ injury, but it would have been important to get him to survive. >> you're a little modest. it was you who remembered that. >> yes. that's what a team is about. everybody pitches in and -- and actually he would have got it anyway because admiral berkeley came in late in the resuscitation carrying vials of

hydrocortizone to make sure that the president had gotten it. admiral berkeley was the president's personal physician. >> he was traveling with him? >> traveling with him. but he was two or three cars back, so they got separated in the traffic, etc., in all of the melee. >> i think he was escorted to the trade center. >> yes. >> and then people had to scramble to get to the hospital. >> it was late in the resuscitation when he said give the president hydrocortizone. by then it was too late. we had already given it. >> he was pleased to know that you had given it? >> yes. >> one of the other conspiracy theories is how his vitals were removed, his heart, lung, a question about a switch of a body bag. do you know anything about that at all? >> i really don't.

>> you were not in the room? >> wasn't in the room. i wasn't aware of when he left. i was just aware that he had left. there's one thing that dr. montgomery and i were talking about, which is in our records -- >> which is kind of the next step for you to add anything we hadn't touched on certainly. >> if you looked at what we wrote, we said that the scalp wound was occipatal, the occipital bone is in the back. these notes were written after the president was gone. and it didn't occur to us that this was a big forensic record we were writing. we thought this was a medical record. if the occipital bone is way back here, and the president is

laying on that, you can't see it. >> can you turn your head? >> yes. this is where the occipital bone reach its peak. so it would have been back there. and literally speaking, you know, it would have been difficult to explain as an exit wound if he were shot in the back, and, number two, you couldn't see it with the patient lying on his back on a gurney. so the recollection where you could see the wound from the front's accurate, and i think it is, then what we show was temporal. part of that is that the medical record is more than a medical record. it becomes a forensic record. so i wish we had been more precise in our

riding. it tomorrow on "washington journal," we talk about the health care debate and the midterm elections of 2010. also, author robert baer discusses his latest book and the developments in iran. the world war ii memorial in washington honors all those who served on the front lines and on the home front. a group of veterans talked about their experiences during the war in the 65th anniversary of the d-day invasion. this is about one hour, 20 minutes. >> welcome to the eisenhower presidential library museum and our camera -- commemoration of the 65th anniversary of the d- day invasion. we intend it the commemorative program to be a tribute to all veterans and veterans of the second world war in particular.

, but to veterans o we could think of no better way to pay tribute to them than to simply listen to them and honor their personal stories of honor, sacrifice, and bravery. i want to preface their remarks with the words of another veteran of the second world war, general john s. d. eisenhower, who wrote the following in honor of this occasion. please convey my greetings and best wishes to all those gathered at the eisenhower library to observe the 60th anniversary of d-day, the allied invasion of normandy. in conducting this ceremony, you are paying honor to those thousands of young men who risk and often lost their lives in the cause of freedom. many years have passed since that historic event, a time span longer than the period between

the inauguration of thomas jefferson and the assassination of abraham lincoln. is heartwarming that you today are remembering. much has been written about d- day, and i can add little to what you already know about the preparations and the ultimate success of the european campaign. i would like to offer a couple of remarks on how the event affected my father, general eisenhower, based on his own words. to begin with, there was no question that throughout the remaining years of his life, my father always considered june 6, 1944 to be the most momentous experience in a long career. the stakes were high. nobody even dared contemplate the consequences at the invasion failed. all possible preparations had been made, but the risks were still there, especially with the weather. the prospects were uncertain. it was up to general eisenhower alone to evaluate conflicting reports and to decide, though, or no go. he decided to go, and the rest

is history. despite this personal first recognize that this undertaking was not his alone. every person in the allied force played a vital role. in june of 1945, a month after the successful end of the war, ike was honored in london. the opening lines of his acceptance speech, he paid them to be. humility must be the portion of any man who receives a claim earned in blood and sacrifices of his friends. at the same time, he said, i come from the very heart of america. while admitting the differences between abilene and london, he pointed out their basic similarities.

to preserve his freedom of worship, is equality before law, his liberty to speak and act as he sees fit, subject only to permission that the trespassed not upon the rights of others, a londoner will fight. so will a citizen of abilene. finally, i would like to emphasize how deeply my father grieving over every life lost. he expressed that feeling best in an eloquent statement he made in 1963 with walter cronkite. sitting on the cemetery overlooking omaha beach, he said walter, this d.a. has a special meeting for me. on d-day, my own son graduated from west point, and on the very same day, these young men were cut off in their prime. they have families that grieve for them, but they never knew a great experience of going through life. i devoutly hope will never again ha to see such scenes as these. every time i come back to these beaches, or any day when i think about that date 20 years ago, i

say once more, we must find some way to work for peace and to gain an eternal peace for this world. those words were spoken in relatively tranquil times, despite the tensions of the cold war. since that day, america has suffered the agony of vietnam, to iraqi wars, and the continuing war in afghanistan. but the fervor it wishes expressed by ike and the old soldier who had seen war first hand, are immutable. thank you, sincerely, john eisenhower. our moderator today is a historian and director of the museum division at fort riley, which includes the first infantry division museum, the u.s. cavalry museum, and custer house. bill holds a master's degree in american history from kansas state university and has taught at public schools and several colleges. he has written many publications on both local and

military history. [applause] >> afternoon. in the distant past, before words were written down, bands of hunters and warriors would gather in the evenings to recall the da's work, adventure, or battle. after a successful hunt or bloody battle, they would sit around a fire, recounting their exploits. in telling their stories, they might present the horns of the prized corey or produce the shield of a fallen foe. these oral traditions were passed from one generation to the next, and eventually to these stories and relics became sacred to the tribal memory. today, we sit at that fire. it is our privilege today to

have a panel of distinguished veterans of what has been called by some the greatest generation. they are here to recount some of their deeds from an epic time in our history. so i would like to introduce this panel to you. on your extreme left,@@@@@@@ @ he was called to active duty in february 1940. he served in world war ii with the 2nd battalion 5 under 17th parachute tree -- parachute team and took them to belgium. general sites had a 35-year military career that saw service in korea where he commanded the

82nd airborne during the vietnam war and retired in 1975. to his immediate left, first sergeant retired curley, who was a buffalo soldier, one of the last living buffalo soldiers of the ninth u.s. cavalry, who served in the united states army 28 years and has been involved in lives in nearby junction city and is involved in the local community and many facets. in the local community of junction city in many facets. he enlisted at fort riley in 1940 and was assigned to the ninth cavalry, which was then a segregated horse cavalry unit. in 1943 he was reassigned to the 371st industry regiment in

arizona. he participated in the italian campaigns during what are busy during world war ii. next is colonel retired george boyd, who is a tuskegee airmen. colonel boyd it flew with distinction during world war ii in the 332 air corps. he served in the korean and vietnam wars and as squadron commander in the united states air force before retiring in 1971. after his retirement, he served as commander of the kansas wing of the department of civil air patrol.

to mr. boyd's left is sergeant wendell gugler. he joined the army after high school and was assigned to the 85th mountain infantry in colorado. in december 1944, he was transferred to virginia where his unit shipped out for naples, italy. during the 10th divisions campaign in italy, he saw much action and received various awards to include the compaq in victory -- combat infantry badge into battle scars. to his left is staff sgt walter d. ellers, a congressional honor

recipient. he was born in junction city, kan., and enlisted in the army in october 1940, along with his older brother, rowland. they trained for the war in the pacific when pearl harbor was attacked, but in 1942 the brothers and shipped out to fight in north africa and sicily. they fought in three major campaigns with the first battalion 18th infantry. just before june 6, 1944, the two brothers were placed in separate companies. walter was assigned as a squad leader in company l. both brothers stormed the beaches on d-day. it was not until a month later that walter learned that his brother had been killed on omaha beach.

for conspicuous gallantry and entropy at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty, on june 19, 1944, sergeant sellers and received the congressional medal of honor. these are our panel members today. we have one panel member who is unable to attend. that is a first lieutenant virginia visher. her bio is in your program, and we wish her well today in her absence. to begin the panel, i would like to start with general sykes and go down the line and ask the gentlemen if you remember what you were doing 65 years ago today.

>> 65 years ago today, i remember it very well. i was commanding a parachute battalion in northern italy, and we were engaged in fierce combat with the germans. i will forever remember that night. >> i was at fort riley, kansas. i enlisted in the army in 1940, and i remained at fort riley until june 1943, and was shipped out to arizona. >> i was a very frightened to high school student in new jersey, wondering what was going to happen next. >> i was training encamped hale

colorado. we had spent a year there, and we were about to be transferred to camp swift, texas for some flat land training. >> i understand the question was 65 years ago? 65 years ago i was on normandy beach and had to fight my way off of it. i had joined the first way because they were pinned down on the beach, so i became a first waver. i was originally to be a second waver, and i cannot forget that day. my brother paid the supreme sacrifice for all of us.

>> in going back to the start of their military careers, would you like to address what motivated you to join the army or the military? was it patriotism, the draft, or something else? >> i had just been commissioned to second lieut. out of kansas state. every man a wildcat. [applause] i was immediately called to active duty, and i do not think it was patriotism. they called me and said they wanted me, and i reported to a little place in texas. i thought it was only for six months, but well into my six

months, i received word that it was for the duration. >> i was just out of high school, and going to the post office. i saw signs that said negro soldiers to enlist. just out of high school, you could not find a job. he would make about 50 cents a day, so for five of us got together and went down to recruit. we tell them we wanted to reenlist. at that time, you had to get your mother's permission to reenlist. we had just turned 18 years old, so we went down and they sent us to fort leavenworth to reenlist. we got to fort leavenworth, kan., and they had a quota, and the quota was filled.

they said the next best thing you can do is to go to fort riley, kan., and they will accept you. so we went to fort riley, kansas. they welcomed us with open arms, so we were glad. you got three meals a day and free clothes. he made $21 a month, so nothing could be better. they put me in the horse cavalry. they had more horses and mules up for raleigh than they did people. i remain at fort riley until 1943. though war started december 2, 1941, and they were downsizing a horse cavalry, so they sent to the infantry. we shipped out and went to italy, and i remained in italy until the war ended in 1945.

>> my career started, and i am not sure whether as patriotism or what it was, but i enlisted in the enlisted reserve corps. what that did was get me out of the infantry. it also meant that i would be in the united states army air corps when i did enter service, and that is exactly what happened. >> in the spring of 1943, i was about to graduate from high school here in abilene. it was the height of the war, and i knew that i was going to be in some service. i attempted to enlist in the navy pilot training course and go to kansas city and take an exam, both physical and mental. i passed the exam with flying colors, except for the fact that

i could not hear very high pitches, so they would not accept me. so i came home, and about that time a friend of mine was attending harvard. he came home and was telling me about all of the skiiers that were in listing from new england and the other northern states. that sounded pretty good, so i contacted the national ski patrol association in new york citynd obtained an application and file the application with three letters of recommendation. i was approved, and it was notified that i would be sent to camp hale, and that is the way i got there. >> i have to think about this.

i enlisted at fort riley, and when i went down to enlist, my brother and i went down because he did not want to be drafted, and i did not feel like i wanted to go in the service by myself. i wanted to go with him, so i tagalong. when i got down to fort riley, i was not old enough to be listed automatically. i had to go home and get my parents signature. my mother looked me in the eye and said son, i will not sign unless you promise to be a christian soldier. looking back at her, i knew i had to say something, so i told her i would do my best. i saw those tears in her eyes, and i remembered that. throughout my life in the military service, i tried to do my best as a christian soldier. i did not want to dishonor her,

and above all, i did not want to dishonor brought. that is how i got into the military service. -- i did not want to dishonored god. my brother and i enlisted for the mechanized infantry regiment of the seventh infantry division in fort ord, california. it did not turn out that way. we got into the infantry, and we were in the 17th division, and then the third infantry division came along and they were all regular army men. we had enlisted to beat the draft, and we became regular army. they sent us up to the third infantry division and we ended up in washington. we were on top of mount rainier putting on a pair of skis, and i look down the mountain and i was

wondering how i was going to get down that amount. that was the first tilhill i had been on, and it was 8,000 feet up. up. they ordered us to return to camp immediately, so it took off my skis, and here i am. i am still here. >> as you all entered military service, what were your initial reactions to the leadership that you came in contact with, clothing, equipment, just the general process into a military career? did you want to make those assessment? >> i was impressed with the leadership. most of the leaders i encountered were west point

graduates, and i don't think they felt real highly of this outstanding cadet from k state. but after a while, it became necessary to rely a certain amount on these lieutenants, but i was impressed with the leadership. i had a lot of examples that put me in good stead later on. . commander and was able to pass on leadership traits that would help them. >> i think the leadership was outstanding. like the general would say, all of the officers were west point graduates. they were there to teach and learn, and the equipment, i

think they were better than the m-16 that they have today. the learning was outstanding. the in co's were all outstanding. they taught the officers, and the leadership was outstanding. >> when i went into the service, i did not even understand the concept of leadership per se, but i was soon indoctrinated. i started out with a started telling me to take all my clothes off, throw my civilian clothes and a pile, and it's

that time we call the batikfati. then they taught me how to fold my socks and underwear and so forth. this was probably leadership, but it was good training, because i still hold my socks and told my underwear. -- fold my socks and fold my underwear. is , i found an outstanding group of people, mostly volunteers. the only ones who were not volunteers at that time were a country that had been sent from hawaii -- 8 cadre that had been sent from a white. there were no noncommissioned officers in the group, but they

were very good. the equipment we were issued was fantastic. it was very well done. we all had mountain jackets and later on we had ski parkas. we had ski pants and we had doubled down sleeping bags. during the winter, when we had maneuvers out in the snow, those bags were wonderful, because we could just lay them out on the snow and crawl in and spend the night in 40 degrees below zero. . .

you're not saluting me. you're saluting the rank and respect for the service and the men who are over you during training. so i did and i smiled a lot when i first got in. and i smiled at the sergeant end and he smiled back and then he chewed me out and made me run around the field with my full field back on. and i was learning respect. and i tell you they were tough. those old soldiers were tough. there were some of them very old, too. [laughter] o. >> well, we have got you into the service and got you

equipped. now, would you want to tell us some of the off-duty recreation you were able to pursue? >> [inaudible] [laughter] >> in in junction city, they had a uso. on weekends, the ninth cavalry band would come down and they would have a dance. i eat learned to dance from the u.s. so -- i learned to dance from the u.s uso. i met my wife. we are married 66 years this year.

they would come to school and bring people up to fort riley. every weekend, there would have family day. they would have cold cuts and have the families out to fort riley. at that time, you had to get permission to get married. if they disapproved of the family, you could not get married. so the activities for most of the people who were single at that time, the activities were all focused on a uso and the folks at fort riley.

>> my experience in extracurricular activity pretty much is consistent with what he said, and i will pass, like the general said. [laughter] but i would like to share that the people in the uso and people at home and in the neighborhoods around the bases really supported service people. i remember, we were going through you talk and i was on a troop train with all black american soldiers. we stopped, and the ladies that were giving out donuts and things, all white americans at the station, they gave us the doughnuts and coffee and featured -- treated us like all the rest of the soldiers. believe me, that was really a breath of fresh air for us. so i need and still tell you that people back home in world

war two whort in the war as much of us as those in the uniforms. i am one of the youngest people on this panel. i was very young in 1944, 18 years old. most of these women have some age on me. they went through prior experience. but with five years' difference in age, these guys were old man in the service. if you were two days older, you have right on them, and that but you be the boss. they tell you that. as far as entertainment was concerned, we still each other's money and that sort of thing, it's and gambling. but support came from people

back home. >> while i was at camp hale, the weekends were spent in denver if you could get there. that was a long drive, but there was no tunnel there at that time. a lot of us would make the trek down to denver and have a great time with friends. one of the outstanding things i remember was the brown palace hotel, the premier hotel in town, and it has an interior lobby their eight stories. one of my members put ropes down and repel all the way down into it. [laughter]

>> i am still learning. i just learned i have to speak to this microphone. i apologize. this is a new experience, talking to people like this, and i can remember what the old sergeant's used to do. they spoke loud and you heard them. if you did again, you were running around the field. i got big brained. but i am getting there. there were so the things that happened i would like to tell you about that it would take a year or two. >> during your military service,

at what point lived -- what was your reaction when you first learned that you were going overseas, and would you share with us some of your experience is getting ready, where you shipped to, how did you learn where you were going, that sort of thing? >> as i indicated before, i was the commander of the parachute battalion, and the first training we had was learning how to jump out of the airplane. many people say, why would you want to drop out of a perfectly safe airplane? but after a jump, you made five attempts and went to a tactical unit. and you were basically an infantry soldier. despite the fact used the airplane as a means of

transportation, you are going to fight on the ground, so you had to learn to be an infantryman. there was a great deal of training in that respect, and after about six or seven months of intensive training, we won on maneuvers to tennessee, and received orders. that was with a great deal of anticipation. we did not know we were going until we actually got aboard ship. after about 14 days, we arrived in naples and immediately became infantry combat. >> in 1943,

>> in 1943 we shipped to arizona and we trained and trained and trained until 1944 and we was sheeped out to camp patrick henry, virginia to catch a ship. we didn't know where we was going until we got half out of the meditteranean. out of the atlantic into the meditteranean. and we was told we would be landing in italy. and we unloaded in verde, italy. we went up through cosina, through rome. after we passed through rome we got into combat. and we stayed all the way up until the swiss border. and at that time, you know that army was segregated. i was in the 92nd infantry division. and we lost a lot of people. and it was hard to get replacements because they put

all the negroes in service battalions. and we remained in italy until the end of the war in 1945. >> when i found out i was going overseas was when they handed me the orders and said "you're going to guam on a 12-month tour." and the reason you're going is because you don't have any overseas time. and that's when i found out i was going and it was just another adventure to me at that time because we were not in combat. two years later we were. so that's how i found out about my first tour overseas. >> after being trained in camp swift, texas we boarded trains and went back to newport news, virginia where we boarded the

liner, the former liner america which had been converted to a troop ship. it was not -- certainly not like an ocean liner had been. because we were packed in. but we sailed from there and went to naples, italy. and then my unit was placed on l.c.i. boats and went up the coast to borno, italy. and then we were notified -- we were told -- we already knew that our assignment was to spearhead through the mountains. and that's where we located to start that. ourselves, starting that. >> when i get to the third infantry division, that was in

1941. we went up to the third infantry division foss headquarters in fort lewis, washington, and we had jungle training. some training getting you on and off the boats, in camp pendleton, california. they took us in khaki uniforms and put us on a train, sent us all across the u.s., and we landed in virginia, where we boarded a ship to newport news and headed out. we were given translation books, and we thought we were going to france.

we said we were going to this country, big coastline and everything, quite a ways out. they said it was french morocco. that is how we learned there was another country that spoke french besides france. that was where we landed, and it was an experience to be on the first landing. that was 1942. >> today, we experience a lot of inflation coming to us in various ways, technology changing, and i want to ask, did any of you no newspaper or

magazine writers that may have accompanied your unit's, and what sort of news to to get from back home? did you get any clippings or articles that told you what was going on after you deployed? >> in my case, i received lots of letters from lots of relatives. that kept me up to date with what was happening in leavenworth, kan., and other places. and they told me lots of news about what was going on in the war. i think the principal source of information, in addition to the letters from home, was the stars and stripes. the people who published it did

a magnificent job, not only in publishing the paper but in delivering it. i think just about every day, we could depend upon having a copy of the paper and get a good idea of what was going on back in the states, as well as what was going on in the war. >> i was just thinking, trying to remember, ernie pyle was a reporter for the "stars and stripes," and at that time we had freed male. we would get letters maybe once a month, something like that. but other than that, it kept us well informed.

>> i was a reporter for "stars and stripes," and it is good to hear that the news was good. i have one of the first article i wrote from them, about anderson air force base and the people who were disposing of ammunition which we would wish we had three years later when the korean war started. during my tour of service, publications were pretty good about keeping us informed. we did it publications from home. my mother used to send me news place bert clippings -- newspaper clippings. we were well kept informed. the only time we were not is when we had temporary duty on some assignment, and you did not

get your mail until you got home. i>> the letters were wonderful, and we had quite a few of them. stars and stripes was a wonderful publication. >> i like "stars and stripes," also. i will tell you about the male leads to get from home. we would like to tell you our story, but by the time you got it, it was censored and scratched out. she played music for us and told us we should quit, but we did

not pay any attention to that. motion, we could not tell you where we were. it was a one-sided story, and it was interested. >> would you be able to describe a typical day in reserve if you are not committed to the front lines? what did you do when you were not fighting? >> well, the first thing you try to do is get a good, hot, shower i think. a clean change of uniform. then there was the task of getting your weapons back in shape, cleaning their weapons,

greeting new replacements. that was always something because you're unit was depleted. it was a matter of training them and getting them back in the line. >> after we returned out of the line, we would be dirty and nasty, glad to get a hot shower and a hot meal. at the time, that would serve c- rations, and then a k-rations in a cracker jack box, and you knew you were going back into combat. we spend our time cleaning our weapons, you would go to shower, take your clothes off, line up,

go into a tent, fold your clothes, and you would go through and take a shower and pick out a bunch of clothes. if they fit, all right. so you take them off and come out the other end after the shower and you try to find a pair of pants and shirt fit you view -- shirt to fit you. we did not have money, because we did not make anything. but if you had money, you would get in a crap game and try to win money from your friend, and he would get angry, quit playing, and take the money away. [laughter]

>> i would like to discuss some of the hardships of being in the service. i want to tell you something i need to share with you. some of the good things that happened after that terrible conflict of world war two. in 1944, my troop was told by our tactical officer we had to defend the gulf of mexico. i went to my first sergeant boomed, and said, you will not let us walk on that beach, and now you want to defend it. what is that about? >> he said, that is part of the united states, and your oath is to defend the united states.

>> i thought, ok, that guidance was acceptable to me. he was the supreme person in our lives at the time. this is 19 -- this is 2000. that of 1944. in the year 2000, i was appointed to be commanding officer of the kansas win of the civil air patrol, so we would go through mississippi, think we were going to stay on the base, we get a notice that we do not have availability because an exercise was going on, and that suggested we ought to stay in a whole hotel downtown. i had the feeling in mississippi i would be discriminated against. well, my wife and i went to a new hotel on the beach.

surprise, it is an interstate gambling casino. six minutes later, we are on the sixth floor and a luxury suite. and i say, look, come here, look out the window. we could not walk on that beach in 1944. here we are now, we can do anything we want to end go anywhere we want, like anyone else. i said, something good came out of this, and this happens every day somewhere in this country because of the people that spent time doing things to change our country. i'm here to tell you that i appreciate bats and salute those of you who voted and those who will vote, and i'm not telling

you how or who. vote. protect that system. it works, and i am living proof of that. >> leaving combat, at times as the other gentleman told you one of the best things you did was take a shower and then to finally get your mail. but in addition to that, after about being on the frontlines for about a month and a half several of us were awarded a three-day pass to florence, italy. beautiful city. certainly enjoyed it so much be able to leave the frontlines and

most of the best of all to have a bed to sleep in! but then it was back to the frontlines again after that. >> my experience in beds in military service, when we go in overseas i read a letter that my brother had written home from the war in 1943. he says, "i've been over here over a year. "and he says," this is the first night i have been in bed." that's because he got wounded. he was medivaced from sicily down to africa. and i thought you're lucky. i never got a bed. only time i got a bed was when i got wounded. i was wounded four more times.

not on purpose, though, but i did get a bed. [laughter] >> what were your reactions to va and v-j day, and how long did you stay in the service afterwards? >> it was a great day, particularly for soldiers in combat. knob by the italian at the time was on a ship, headed back to the state to fight the war and the pacific. so, v-j day was a great day of

jubilation. >> a great day in the military service was when harry truman signed 99 airborne on the 26th day of july, 1948. i think that was a great day. >> i was in washington d.c. on v e day, and it was a wonderful feeling. probably because we did not have to go in combat. but it was a relief.

we did not know what the future held, but it pretty much did not matter on d-day. >> my unit was on lake garda in the italian alps. we had ended up there, and it was quite a celebration for all of us. the j.j. -- v-j day, in the meantime, we were shifted back to the united states and they told us we would be the second wave on japan.

outthrust -- it so happens that the day i came back to abilene, president truman announced that the war was over with japan. >> i had a lot of happy days. after the war was won in japan, we took orders from president truman saying anybody who had ordered should request a discharge. i took it to my commander and he said, you could not do this one. [laughter]

so i took it to the battalion commander, and he agreed. i said we had plans for you, and he said, i know you do. i said i would exercise my rights, and i did. i dealt with veterans for most of the rest of my life, and i had 29 years with the veterans and ministration, eight years before it started working for veterans, and i filed claims for benefits and had a whole lot of veterans were living in rental cars. i would say to them, what are you doing? you are paying $250 a month, and you only have a pack of rent receipts. i said, you can go here and pay

much less with a home, texas, and insurance and you are paying for rent, and you will have equity. i talked to a lot of veterans about buying homes in the 1940's and mid-9050's. [applause] >> gentleman, we have covered a lot of ground this afternoon, and i would like to give you an opportunity if there are things we have not talked about or questions that maybe i missed that you would like to address or even share some personal thoughts we have passed by, the floor is open to you. >> the first thing i would like to say is how impressed i was

with the topic of the american people. when i came in the army, it was less than 120 south bend, including deer force. -- less than 120,000 men. you heard about rooms substitute for rifles, so on and so forth. the head an army of only about 100,000. one year later, the american people work supporting the armed forces of several million, turning out tanks and airplanes by the thousands. that has always impressed me, having seen our army and what shape it was at the time congress passed a regulation.

incidently, they passed the draft with only one vote, and the fall of 1940, which indicates how radisson america was to become involved in world war two. shortly after that, the entire nation was enthusiastically supported the war. the strongest, most capable military force in the world. [applause] >> i will pass on the question. >> i would like to share with you a personal in ventures in terms of what happened after integration was declared to be

guava land in the armed forces by president truman. this is a personal experience. as i was in the 100th fighter squadron, the second wing to which we were assigned was deactivated. um officers and enlisted persons in their units were given an opportunity to do two things. one, they could serve without prejudice and go home to do whatever they wanted to do. or they could stay in or sign up and go for worldwide duty. statistics show we want 15% of the enlisted persons, 50% of officers, everyone else joined

the integrated united states that now become the department of defense. one of my jobs was to ask each listed person if they wanted to go home. general davis at that time asked every officer the same question , and the statistics showed the same thing. 15% decided to go home of officers and chairman, and the rest of the personnel went worldwide vote duties. that was a traumatic time, because the culture had changed. our culture had changed. where we had been a unit of people of color, and that was the only reason we were in those

units, we now have an opportunity to become part of a fighting unit based on training and what was it necessary to win the war. my first assignment was with the 318 fighter and interception squadron, where i was the only black of surf line in the squadron at the time, and it is one of the highlights of my personal life, because begun to be friends, we got to know each other, and we were fighting for common cause, the united states of america. [applause] one of every three in the 10th mountain division was killed or wounded, and i lost a lot of

good friends. but those of us who survived were all very thankful that we did what we could for our country, to bring freedom to the entire world proof -- world. >> i would like to talk all little about why we are here. my society has a convention. once a year we go to a city, and they send us out to schools, every school day camp, and we talked to the students, and that is what i've been doing for 20 years. i talked to schools all over the united states, virginia, tennessee, new york, chicago,

wisconsin, olympia, places like that. i talked to the schools, and the thing i wanted to know most about is what a great nation their living and, and that the stars and stripes is the most respected flight in the world. the reason we have so many immigrants here, so many people of different nationalities, they see that flag and they see freedom, and they come here to get their freedom. that is why we have some may people coming here all the time, because we have a very loose system of immigration, and they come here for education and other reasons, but also for freedom. in every sense, it is a revolutionary war, the biggest

war since the civil war. the next biggest war since world war two. then we have vietnam, korea, and europe. then we have iraq and afghanistan. we have all of these places where we have caused freedom. there is >> we have caused more freedom around the world than any other nation has caused. the united states has freed more people as a result of being a great and wonderful nation and a place where everybody wants to come and live. and thank you all for supporting us in this system. [applause] >> i would like to make a

comment that extends our veterans celebration if you will a little bit further. i visited our troops in kuwait, qatar and iraq. i talked to 6 or 7,000 united states service personnel all branches of the service. so i'm here to tell you what i found. i found people with my more ale, people who knew what they -- with high morale, who understood what they were doing, who understood their mission, who wished they were home, and people who liked the leadership they were receiving for the most part. those that i talked to. and since i had been in the same position that they are now, our conversation was credible. they seemed to know what is required of them. we are in good hands with those

young soldiers, men and women, out there in the field. i can say that because i've been there. i've talked to them. and you need to know that. so support those veterans because they will be where you are tomorrow. thank you. [applause] >> at this time, i would like to open it to the floor if there are some questions our audience liked asked rewould -- would like to ask. >> i would like to hear the story about turning the medal? >> would you like to share your experience at normandy? >> if i could do it shortly. first, and did not allowed to

win a medal, and i was only doing my job. what happened was we had a german patrol, and we fired on them, and they came in. i had to take a patrol and follow them. i got half a mile or so and stumbled across a bag going down this road between hedgerows. it was so dark you could not see in front of you. we stumbled briefly over it, picked it up, brought it back. and i go to the commander and ask if i'm satisfied, because we had no maps of any kind.

we got back, and two days later we go to this place where they showed the maps as the second and third lines of defense for the moves the germans will make. so when we open it up, we found that out, and we took the -- we read the maps and went home and packed the next couple of days. on the ninth and 10th of june, i was leading a squad across the field and the platoon next to us was leading across the other field in their platoon. there was a machine gun. so i rushed my men up to the hedge row in front of us so we would not get caught in the field and i started going down the hedgerow to find out where the machine gun was firing from. i heard some noise.

i'm standing there, pointing my rifle and four enemies who had their rifles pointed at me. i had to make up my mind, are you with them, whatever. enter my mind like that and i had to shoot them. another machine gun was firing from another corner, same place as the other one. so i went there, came out, and knocked out the machine gun. after meeting the first enemy, i had them fix their bayonets, and that is one of the best things i did. i went on carry my bayonet and led my squad.

i could smell them before i could see them. [laughter] i learned to smell them in africa, and carry that on for years afterward. we went up to another one, this is the third one, and i went up on the bank to see what was protected their. there were two more troops there, with 12 men on them -- 12 mortars which is more troops on them, 12 men, and they looked at me and were scared stiff because i was, also. i did not tell them that. i asked them to halt and they

started running because they were afraid of these bayonets, because my squad came out there. so we had to shoot them all. the next day, i got the job of leading the squad again. the commander had said my squad out there. and the next guy got killed out there. we started from three sides, and commander told us to withdraw. i knew if we did, they would shoot us in the back. i was on a mountain firing in a circle, maggie -- might be a our man came, firing from the right. my man got shot, but i did not know it at the time because i was busy putting a german

machine-gun nest down in the corner of the field i was in. i got hit in the back, fell down, and i shot him. he actually fell out. so i got up, saw my automatic rifle, and went up to get it. he had been wounded in the right leg and right arm was shattered so i got his arm around my neck and carried him back to the hedgerow, turned him over to be magic, and went back for his rifle and brought that back. i told my commander i was wounded in the back.

he looked and said, oh, my god, you should be dead. i said no, sir. the bullet went into my side, went through it. it went and looked like i had been shot clear through. he said, you ought to be dead. you have been caught clear through. it did not happen, but i had my wounds pressed and went on. so that is why i got a metal honor. [applause] -- that is why i got the medal of honor. [applause] it was not that i was trying to win any honors. it was all just doing my job,

and i never thought about it. i never knew anything about the metal honor until i got wounded a third time, hospitalized in paris, and i was sent back to the front line. the guy and the train was reading "stars and stripes," and he said i am reading how your brother got the medal of honor. i did not tell him he was reading about me, because i had not got it yet. a colonel call me by my name, and he said sgt, what are you doing here. i said i was reporting back to base. he said, you are supposed to be back in the states, getting the medal of honor from the president. i said yes, sir, i read it in

"the stars and stripes. so i went back. john lee, a graduate of junction city high-school, i was talking to him and he said he went to the high school. so anyway, that is how i got a medal of honor. [applause] >> another question? >> well, i want to thank our panel for sharing their insights and perspectives on world war two.

to them and all veterans, past and present, we of deep gratitude and thanks. thank yo >> a look now at research into lost stolen jewish assets. from the national archives this program a lasts about a hour [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2009] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

>> good morning, everybody. we have a nice crowd this morning. it's really wonderful to see some of these faces for the record program. i work here at the national archives with the customer services division. the familiar record program is designed to teach you about the historical records that we have here and how to do the research for the to have -- from our public affairs staff come today. we don't just have lectures. we also have jeanology workshops. and i've left programs outside of this room for you if you'd like to find out the schedule. we have an annual geneology fair

that took place in april. and we have a book group. so we meet several times during the year where we discuss a book. so we hope that you can make that other programming as well. today miriam is going to talk about world war ii lost jewish assets. and nice introduction. she has an interesting background. she came to us in a fun way. miriam, public affairs specialist from the office of public affairs, mirrian started as a researcher at the national archives in march 1996 when she was asked to explore the issue of lost jewish assets during world war ii. this initial two-day assignment turned into four years working for a law firm that did the swiss bank and german companies on behalf of hol hires. after the case was is the willed she was hired by the national

archives -- for the interagency working group to implement the nazi war crimes disclosure act in. 2004 she joined the national archives office of public affairs. articles on her and her research have appeared in the "new york times," u.s.a. today, the "washington post" and u.s. news and world report. she has been interviewed on good morning america and worked as a consultant to the "new york times" and abc news. she graduated with honors in political science from the university of michigan. so our program is usually one hour long. and we will take a question and answer at one point. and so we hope that you enjoy it. i do have one logistic question for you. and if you don't mind i have handed out evaluations. if you could please fill those out before you go. this is very important to our -- tied into our budget. and i have one question. did.

>> she's also chiefs. >> that's true. the biography. she's featured -- every time a guest comes to the national archives we have an introductory film called "democracy starts here." and she's featured in that. so yeah, you need to add that to your biography. >> good point. >> thank you so much. miriam. >> thank you for the nice welcome. thanks to all of you for coming today. it's really a honor and a pleasure not only to speak here but to work here. earlier over the weekend i was speaking with my mother. and i told her i would be making a presentation here. and she said, "oh, what are you talking about?" i said, "mom, there's only one topic i've talked about for the past 12 years. and that's what i will be -- actually almost 13 years. and that's what i'll be talking about today, the issue of lost jewish accounts in swiss banks during ward war ii." i will address and hopefully answer three questions. one, why and how did the story unfold? what was the timeline of events?

the order of research discovery, congressional hearings, lawsuits, official government reports and the eventual settlement. why did this issue emerge 50 years after the holocaust? two, how did the u.s. national archives at college park become the center of this investigation? and three, what was the result? what happened? . how did the story unfolds? the national jewish congress was big before the war, and slowly became less important. the head of the congress was a man named edgar roffman, the billionaire owner of seagram's.

billionaire owner of seagram's. he has in the movie industry, a huge business man and donor to the party, and a canadian. his father died and he discovered he wanted to reconnect with his jewish roots, and he became involved with the congress. it sounds like an enormous organization. by the 90's, it was not too big. a man named rabbi israel singer was the main go-to man, and there was a publicist. jewish organizations, any small organizations are always looking for an issue. israel singer was doing summer reading. i am going to use the chart to show how quickly this unfolded. sorry for the squeaking.

somewhere in 1995, rabbi singer read a book. i do not have a copy of it. i have read it. i told him about the swiss accounts. this does not have a high amazon ranking. it was not considered a great mystery. but opposed the idea of what happens to money that you have deposited in swiss banks during world war two if you were later killed? what happens to that money? also, u.s. intelligence officials were in this. so the rabbi started thinking about this, doing a little research, and they thought that this might be an interesting issue to look into. the question, in the 90's, why wasn't this developed earlier?

the cold war had ended. obviously, they became our ally. when it was over, those alliances were no longer as important. in 1993, the movie schindler's list came out. people were talking about the holocaust. the average age of a holocaust are caught -- survivor was around 90. many began talking about their stories for the first time. i believe there is one more

reason, the national archives at college park guy, for the first time a large collection of national archives records on world war ii were consolidated in one place. not only were the records and solid tests but the artists were also when one building. they began looking into this. they have talks. a billionaire businessman wanted to raise this issue with the swiss. this was when i going to turn him away. it is said, sure, come to switzerland, we will discuss this with you. december 1995. they go to switzerland. they meet with the swiss bankers. there is an event that apparently two things happen that were greatly offensive. one, is an older gentleman.

he was not even offered a chair. that is what he said when he came back. the second was, forget the niceties, they offered him one thing, they offered him $32 million to make the issue go away. he said he was not warmly welcomed, not given the chair, offered $32 million, and he said that was offensive. they said the swiss had done some research and out of all world war ii era accounts, there were 775 dormant accounts, not touched since the war. they said they may be jewish, though maybe not, but we'll give you the benefit of the doubt. these accounts are worth $32 million. that is what he was offered. he was offended. he decided to do something about it. he was offended, and he decided to do something about it. as i mentioned, he is a canadian

citizen. there's not much he could do in terms of putting pressure on the banks, especially the banks with offices in new york. he went to visit someone in january 1995. he went to visit then senator alfonse d'amato. many of your republican him reject many of you are familiar with him. he was a big donor to the democratic party, visiting with a republican senator. at that point he was chair of the senate banking committee. he had jurisdiction over banking affairs. d'amato was a difficult situation. his big issue at that point had been the whitewater investigation. it was not amounting to what he thought he had. the upcoming election was going

to be a big one. he turned to his legislative director and said, do you think this is something we might be interested in? new york has the largest holocaust survivor population of any state in the u.s.. he is a new york politician, and at one point, as the issue developed, he took out a full- page ad in a jewish newspaper in new york that said " d'amato, good for their jews." as many of you may know, there are congressional staffers who do not this aside the issues for members, but are very influential. he turned to greg rickman and

asked if he was interested. greg happens to be jewish and happens to be the son-in-law of a holocaust survivor. he happened to have been with his father locked at the camps over the summer of 1995. so he was interested. alfonse d'amato said if you are interested, the hearings are yours to run. february 1996, greg rickman sent a letter out to all the different government agencies, and it was signed by a d'amato saying they were looking into the accounts. if you have any documents that relate to this, please send them to us. the letter was written february

23, 1996. a month later, an assistant archivist who just happen to have done his ph.d. on lost jewish looted or during the holocaust wrote back. "we regret that we cannot undertake extensive research necessary to identify the exact documents that interest you. we will be pleased to assist your representatives in using our finding aids and to make permanent records available in our college park research room." so march 1996 was when that letter came back. the world jewish congress had a consultant who lived in maryland. there were not going to go to the national archives to undertake this research.

they said that they could send some intern's to do the research, and it might take to make days to a week. they said they could not do the research for the model, but to send some intern's. -- could not do the research for d'amoato. they ignore their consultant and were going to come to the archives and go through documents for two days. i happen to be in between jobs. someone called and asked me if i was interested in doing today is of archival research. i had never been to the national archives and knew very little about the issue. there is not supposed to be anything, because they were numbered accounts. why would there be anything in u.s. files? why would we have records of

what the swiss banks did in world war ii? >> he said it is to make days, it is at the archives, and i know you need some work. what have you do this? march 21 i met with greg rickman. he handed me the letter from dr. kurtz, with some ideas of where to begin. he gave me the instructions, safe haven. i had heard there was a project called safe haven, a u.s. effort to attract money from germany to switzerland. that might be a good place to start. ward's 21st 1996 was when i met with greg. march 22 was my first day at the archives, and it was the weekend. my second day at the archives was march 20 fi5. i started with a card of 13

boxes from the jag war crimes branch. this was just a suggested place to start. on my second ever research, and i understand this is not a normal research experience, i found a 1945 u.s. intelligence reports from switzerland, reported on a swiss bank. i have a copy of that right here. it noted that the main depositors were jews, and it listed accounts of 182 depositors from nine countries. it said safe haven report, which i was told to export. it is from 1945. basically said that these were all accounts that had been opened before 1942 and had not been touched, and they did not know why. they said that there might be three reasons, one, there were people trying to profit from the black market who deposited funds illegally. to, they are trying to move funds out of their home

countries, or three, to ensure that the funds would be safe from confiscation by local authorities. they also said that the aforementioned funds and other property are beneficially owned, principally by jewish persons who are nationals of and residents of the not see occupied companies. -- the nazi-occupied countries. i called greg from the archives and said i found something that looks important. he said come here immediately. make a copy of the document and come to the hill. so i did. many of you may have heard congressional research service. is the research arm of the library congress. they are experts on a number of

different fields. greg faxed this list of accounts. there are accounts from romania) -- there are cows for maniac and germany. there were names that jumped out as a jewish names. they faxed us and asked the congressional research service, can you please take these amounts and put them in the current figures and adjust for interest and inflation? congressional research service did that. they said this is a rush order from the senate. the congressional research service did that and got back to gregg this one listing from one bank, totaling over $29 million in 1990's figures. $29 million in 1996 figures. that is what broke this open.

it showed that there was evidence of jewish accounts in swiss banks during world war two and that it was here at college park. historical proof of unclaimed assets in switzerland could be found in u.s. archival records. this sparked and ignited the issue, but there was a very unusual fire accelerant. how many of you have done research at the archives? this is how quickly this developed. the first hearing was held cable 23rd, 1996. that is how fast the whole thing developed in the april 23. whoever has done research here knows that when a document is copied from the national archives that was once classified, you have a local slug at the top.

this is a declass slug. someone at the archives will sign it and then the date. the nnd date is the year and date it was classified -- declassified. not a newly declassified documents, however, the day, 3/25/96. if someone is looking at the document, what is the date that is easily readable? the first congressional hearing

, it censured the model held this up and said declassified last month at the national archives. no matter what any of the staffers tried to tell him, that make for great publicity, and that is what made the news. asta model holding up documents and waving them, saying they were newly declassified. -- alfonse d'amato holding up the documents. someone who did not know would say that makes sense, 1996, newly declassified. that was the accelerant on this. there were numerous other hearings. how did the archives become the center of this investigation? following the first congressional hearing on this issue, research teams representing the swiss banks showed up at the archives, and the press followed. to ensure equal access to all,

greg bradsher had been tasked to be the point person on the issue. the concern was that someone would say you helped miriam, but why are you not helping the law firms? to make everything equal, to give everyone equal access, greg did a finding aid. this was an early draft. it said -- in windsor military records, set four records that relate to this issue. -- it went through military records. i will go back to that. this is the original, which was under 10 pages long. greg became interested in the

issue. he always had new discoveries. one day he said it turns out there was a government agency that is no longer around, call the office of foreign funds control. it no longer exists, but we have about 500 big federal records center boxes of those materials. they have not been processed, but if you would like to go through them. this was approximately 15 million pages of material. by this point it was summer of 1996, and there were in terms. i was still working with the world jewish congress. we had about 12 in terms. we sat around the table in one of the rooms and went through pages and pages of these boxes. again, i am not a trained historian and certainly not an attorney. these were college interns who made these discoveries.

greg rickman suddenly was a at the archives every day. one day he wanted to introduce us to another researcher representing one of the largest swiss banks. reg and i were in short sleeve shirts and shorts. they introduced us to a man who arrived by limousine every morning. he was tall, incredibly handsome, immaculately dressed in a suit and cufflinks. he had a law degree, a business degree, spoke three languages, and had a background in international finance. that was who we were up against. that is when we realize that this investigation had grown a lot larger. we explore the records of the office of strategic services, a precursor to the cia, the treasury department the state

department, and the office of foreign funds control. what sort of documents did refine? we learned a new york connection. it turns out that the three big swiss banks had a subsidiary in new york during world war two. some of the depositor funds had been transferred to the new york branch. they said these were numbered accounts, we will not give you any information about them. the u.s. began to investigate. as we tackle box after box, we found those investigations. it was fascinating to read more about safe haven and to see the method of swiss neutrality unravel. we learn that switzerland supplied the not seazi regime. in the words of a 1945 memo, as late as april 1945, the swiss were in cahoots with the germans.

i talked about the summer research effort. in the summer of 1996, the german magazine noted the importance of our research discoveries. "the avalanche of slime from the archives is threatening to bring the entire swiss banking center, to date no. 1 in the world, into lasting disrepute." encouraged by this, we proceeded with our work. [laughter] in september 1996, was called and asked to meet with an attorney. i found myself sitting at a table with many attorneys. they were considering suing the swiss banks on behalf of holocaust survivors. they said they wanted to do the work pro bono. the managing partner of the firm asked if i thought there was evidence to support this case. again, i had essentially lived at the archives for the previous six months, studying only this.

one attorney looked at me and said it is one thing to accuse someone of tax evasion. it is another thing to accuse an institution of complicity with the nazis. you really think there is evidence to support this? i shared what i had learned from my research at the national archives. about an hour later, i wrapped up. they met separately and offered me the job on the spot. and my first day, i was given an office and a desk and told to write out what i had detailed to them. the lawsuit was filed shortly thereafter. with congressional hearings and big lawsuits, this became a huge issue, not only in the press. u.s.-swiss relations were sorely tested. this was a democratic alliance for years. they had been allies, to strong democracies. as tensions increased, president bill clinton and the undersecretary of commerce had asked eisenstaedt to testify.

it was unclear when the report would be issued. eisenstaedt later wrote a book about this effort called "imperfect justice." this became kind of a logo of the research effort, the gold bars in a swastika. i would describe what he wrote about the research effort at college park. you'd think it would be very somber and serious. he describes something quite different. "by the summer of 1996, a dozen young in terms were working and uncovered a treasure trove of materials that were used over the next several years to keep the swiss on the defensive. the research at the national archives had eight marx brothers quality. the little-known archives facility in maryland was suddenly besieged by researchers from all parties.

soon there was a battle, not only in the halls of congress and in the courts, but among competing researchers, each according boxes of important documents and spying over one another's shoulders. the swiss researchers called rickman devil boy. in 1997 there were almost 50 researchers working for the swiss bankers association, and for the state department. all trying to l. barr -- elbow their way into a small area to examine the documents. i mention that the law was accelerant in an unusual factor involved in this case. the eisenstaedt report that was commissioned by bill clinton was another. for a number of reasons, the report was held up. the press was anxious. clinton asked eisenstaedt to do it in 1996, but in january 1997

the report had not come out. in march 1997, no report. there was so much suspense. the press was anxious whether or not the u.s. would slam a longtime democratic ally. was this pre-election political posturing? was the worst of the accusations true? did the gold purchased by the swiss banks from the nazis -- report was delayed and delayed again. meantime, our research continue. the attorneys realized it would not be settled in a court of law but in a court of public opinion. i was encouraged to speak to the press, which may or may not have been a mistake. the report was not out. people were not talking. the bankers were on the defensive, and we kept finding

newly declassified documents at the national archives. most of these had been declassified at least 20 years before, if they had ever been classified. it was a very easy story for the press. there was an absence of news. i was more than happy to fill it. i have since learned some lessons. at the time, i was not necessarily as diplomatic. news reports like this came dowout. the eisenstaedt report was supposed to come out earlier. the swiss it -- the swiss equivalent of "newsweek" sent a reporter out to cover the story.

we ended up with this, me standing in front the archives looking very tough. you can understand why the swiss i am not a historian. it has a " for me -- has a quote from the saying you had 50 years to do this. much to my surprise, i ended up on the cover of "usa today." i look about 12. "i had no idea what i was doing when i started and i had no idea what i would find." again, i was terrified.

me at the national archives up with the photographer of on top trying to do it an artistic photo shoot. at one point, good morning america call the law firm and asked if i would speak with them. i said it was way above might pay grade. i checked with the department head. there were more than happy to have me work on this one. we set up the interview, and they came. they were there for about two hours, during which time the attorneys spoke about the cases and about the legal precedent and the historical implications. i said two things. after the interview, before it

aired, the attorney took me aside. he was very soft-spoken. he said there are two things you said today that i would ask you never to repeat again. i will show you what aired, and you will see that is those two things that i was asked never to repeat. >> c-span does not have permission to air this portion of the video. we resume the program at its conclusion. >> was concerned him was that my " was a bit sensationalist, and i had commented on victim goal, whether or not that was part of the ball that went to switzerland. at that point, it had not been proven conclusively, although i thought it was. i am not an attorney or u.s.

government official. the eisenstaedt report finally came out in may 1997, accusing switzerland of being nazi germany's banker. this is the audience participation part. hindsight is wonderful, and i distributed some secret bank books. what i call your number, please speak loudly and read the highlighted part of the document. did the u.s. know at the time that germany might try to launder looted gold through the neutral countries? this is a state department document. hazmat but number one? if you could read that, please. -- who has a bank but number one? >> this is a memorandum dated january 18, 1945. on february 22, 1944, a gold

declaration was issued by the united states, united kingdom, and the soviet union, declaring that those nations would not purchase gold from any country which had directly or indirectly obtained such gold from axis forces. meanwhile the question of gold policy had been raised with all the european neutrals. the statement was made that germany had long since it exhausted all its pre were gold and resources and any accumulation from current production and that by necessity, in the gold offered by germany must be presumed to be diluted. the neutrals, therefore, were requested to indicate that they would purchase no gold directly or indirectly from any access source. that is dated january 18, 1945.

>> thank you for reading at. u.s. news and had warned at the neutrals, which is why they were monitoring the so closely. they knew that nazi germany had exhausted its reserves, but was continuing to fund the war. did the swiss banks know that the goal was stolen? bank book #2 references the chief general manager of the swiss bank corp., one of the largest swiss banks. >> this is from august 1937. i had a very pleasant visit. he took me down to the receivers teller window to show me what was going on. there was a line of about 60 people waiting with cash, jewelry, old pictures, securities, and other valuables. it would appear this is going on

all along, and a swiss bank has reached the poinwhere they do not know how to continue to handle french customers, owing to the physical shortage of space for state custody. whereas before itwwas the big fellows who ran across the frontier, today is the small people who export their capital. >> there were lines at the banks, and they said these are the little people with their possessions. these were french jews fleeing are trying to deposit their money for safekeeping. swiss officials rebutted such accusations and stressed their wartime neutrality. we found evidence to the contrary. this was really provide military assistance to the nazi regime, and did the u.s. no? manga book #3 is a memo from the war department. it is in three parts. >> dated january 15, 1945. this was produced and exported

to germany large quantities of ammunition, aircraft parts, radio equipment, and other military supplies, as well as machine tools, locomotives, and industrial equipment. they also furnished electric power and the railroads carry heavy traffic for the germans between germany and italy. these activities were of substantial assistance to the germans in waging war. signed robert patterson, undersecretary of war. mr. patterson expressed a willingness to turn the bombers lose and make life unpleasant for the swiss generally. >> so yes, the u.s. new and officials at the highest level were not happy about it, not only economic assistance by the swiss to nazi germany but also military assistance. it is a bit cliche to say this here in the national archives,

but what is past is prologue. 50 years later we found investigations and the press reports. we found that had all been forgotten during the cold war. what was the end result? there were many more congressional hearings, more lawsuits were filed. there were endless news reports and boycotts of swiss banks in the u.s.. in august 1998, lawsuits against the three largest banks settle for 1.2 $5 billion. -- $1.25 billion. i would like to say it all went to the survivors, but unfortunaty it did not. the class action people who had signed on to the class-action lawsuits did receive a payout, but it was not large. however, it it did provide historical prove and changed our

image of a neutral switzerland. it led to a wave of additional holocaust related litigation, including lawsuits against french, german austrian banks, lawsuits involving looted art from the holocaust and lawsuits against insurance companies that profited from the holocaust. this is a pretty heavy topic, so we will have a few minutes for questions, but just to lighten it up, i will close with a game. i will introduce a topic, and someone will read a passage. this is the audience participation part. all you have to do is tell me, is this quote from 1946, or from 1996. the verse " is from a congressional hearing on the issue of swiss wartime activity. who has bank of number four?

>> the germans maneuver themselves into a position where they could utilize their assets in switzerland to support the war effort, and could conceal economic research for another war. these moves are made possible by the willingness of swiss government and banking officials in violation of their agreement with the allied powers to make a secret deal with the nazis. >> this is an official senate investigation into this issue. 1945, or 1996? >> i say 1945. >> i think 1996. lift the the tab. >> chairman, subcommittee on war mobilization, hearings before subcommittee on military affairs, united make virginia and state senate, november, 1945. >> all of this had been investigated.

someone was kind enough to offer to read a passage in german. all of the intermission had been translated 50 years ago. to meet that dazzling person who represented the swiss banks who spoke a number of different languages, this had all been done for us. we just had to uncover it. we found this committee -- the kilgore committee had discovered that swiss banks had purchased looted gold from germany. that was known 50 years before this investigation. the swiss were not happy with these investigations, and i have a quote from the swiss press slamming an aggressive senator. >> honorable center getting to be known in switzerland. he is not our friend. he made serious accusations against our country in press.

the new tack is but one episode against a country of four million inhabitants. on the whole, the matter is not a suitable importance. >> so the senator is attacking us, and is not a big deal. 1945, are 1996? >> it is november 22, 1945. >> same thing. do you think there was less anger this time around, with this investigation? this document was faxed to senator d'amato pose the office from the number two diplomat at the swiss embassy in washington. this was in 1998, immediately after of the model lost his

reelection campaign. >> i should like to congratulate you against your miserably failed reelection to the united states sen. i am proud of the new yorkers who sent you where you belong. the campaign of lies against my country has not save your political career from oblivion as planned. i savor the irony that iraq was finally broken by your allies -- at your back was finally broken by your allies. give my regards to greg rickman who provided you with this pseudo historical dirt to throw at us. better people than you will work hard to repair it and succeed. >> he was a former deputy chief of mission in washington. he wrote that letter -- he was

not so diplomatic. he wrote the letter after he received his new posting to bulgaria, and was not happy with that. thank you all for the audience participation. this was a very short introduction to a big and complicated issue. i am happy to take any questions. >> i do not have a sense of how much of the material was classified, dealing with this issue, but it seems to me that that the classification of the 1970's should have brought about a renewed focus and interest, because it was more generally available. it would have been known only to a few persons before the declassification took place. >> that is a very good question. most of our documents really were. why was this not a big deal then? for those of you who have done

research at the archives, they are not always finding aids. there are boxes that no one has gone through. the volume of material, we have 10 billion pages of material. if you remember what i held up at the beginning, he continued to expand that document. the most recent copy is this. basically, it ends up that there were not people to go through all this. people did not know where to start. we had a team of 12, and this is all we did. all these documents were there. in the video, they have me in the stacks saying the documents for right here waiting for someone to find them, which is what makes research so fascinating here, because you never know what you might find. it may be new, are not quite old and has been available, but no

one has seen it. >> that you ever run across -- what did kilgore trout this? >> this was all investigated. they warned the swiss to repaiy diluted goal and have a go to restitution organizations. this was all dropped because suddenly they were fighting a new war. suddenly the germans were our allies and it was forgotten as we move forward. >> have you considered writing a book? >> it is a good question. other people have, but in the

meantime, have worked on some other things, and everyone involved -- several others have written books. when i started, i was not sure how much to go into this. when i started doing this research, it was a clear-cut issue of good versus evil. i had never worked on anything that was this black and white. but having worked with attorneys, some of the attorneys involved were not the best people, and some stole from the holocaust survivors there represent. one has since been disbarred. someone with one of the organizations embezzled some funds and deposited them in a swiss bank account. when the model is of being the last one standing -- when d'amato in the being in the last

one standing and one of the good guys. i was very nice even now i approached this -- i was very naive when i approached this. everything is here, and is much purer and much less tainted. there are no attorneys' fees or accountants' fees, and the information is there. to revisit all this with a critical eye at think would be very challenging. >> i want to confirm that i heard correctly what you said. did you say that 33 tons of dental gold were extracted in one camp alone? >> that is what we found. this was in u.s. records. the whole dental gold question, i had heard about that. that was probably among the

most sensationalist things i heard, but then we found evidence. apparently there was concern that the camp commandant would still the dental gold. it had to be certified. they did monthly reports on how much dental gold was taken from how many victims, and we found those reports, which was absolutely chilling. >> is it fair for me to keep separate the issues of assets, cash and other assets deposited by european jews trying to secure tir wealth before and during the war in switzerland and the issue of gold deposited by the germans or sold by the germans to the swiss? are those two separate tracks, and if they are, which of the two came to light more in the later years and which were more well known to the u.s.

government back in the 1940's? >> the question is monetary vs. non monetary gold. the nazis not only to victim gold, they took over currency and gold reserves. the nature of archival research is that it comes out in pieces. when you are dealing with organizations that have an interest in getting press coverage, and senator d'amato has an interest in press coverage, and lawsuits that are never going to be heard in a court, it was almost haphazard what came forward. the monetary gold, the bars of gold that were then sent to switzerland, that was known about. what came out in the investigation was the extent of

the non monetary, the victim gold. we have time for one more question, and then i will be available afterwards. >> i am curious whether you found evidence of collusion of u.s. firms in your research. my late father-in-law had a translation for itt, and he was devastated when he realized that collusion between that concern. >> the swiss case was settled in 1998, and there were lawsuits against the german companies that had u.s. subsidiaries, including ford and volkswagen. that form a whole new wave of litigation. many of the company said that their subsidiaries in germany were completely nationalized by the nazis, but many of them or

not. it is all at the archives, because all this was investigated. we found records, and there have been additional books and reports showing that not only did the u.s. companies know that this was going on, but they profited from that. he had forced an slave laborers who had to work 12 hour shifts. they did not need to provide them with food or insurance or so security or pensions are anything like that. they had a disposable work force, literally three slave labor, and many companies may have been founded on this wartime slave labor rather than some economic miracle that occurred afterwards. one last question. >> is there any reason

concerning when it something is declassified? is there a date or timeline? >> some of these documents may never have been classified in the first place. that is just when they were processed, and some news that code. there archivists' here who might be better able to explain. we have different divisions that goes through and help decide what remains classified and for how long. are there issues of national intelligence, names and operations? it was something for british intelligence, the british government had to approve it and in the u.s. government has to approve it. the whole declassification process can be held up on a number of different levels. clinton basically said, because the eisenstaedt report that came

not criticizing the swiss, a later report criticized other allies and neutrals, and then they said way, what about the u.s.? what was the u.s. role? that is when the nazi war crimes disclosure act was passed and signed by clinton. it basically said that any information that remains classified that relates to this needs to be processed and declassified and made available. so there was the interagency working group to implement the workrooms disclosure act. as they became declassified and sent to the archives, there were historians their review the information and make reports available. that is what i worked with for my first four years at the archives. there is an executive order under clan that said that after a certain point, certain records would become declassified. shifted the burden, meaning that

you have to give reason why it remains classified, otherwise it is declassified. >> is there some kind protocol that could have been ignored or plan that way. >> i will be here for additional questions. i appreciate your interest and your participation. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2009] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> up next, a discussion with a doctor who served on the team that tried to save president kennedy's life after he was shot. later, a review of the 2008-2009 supreme court term.

then a news conference on health care legislation with a group of black anti-abortion activists. we now go to dallas for a discussion with the doctor who served on the team that tried to save president kennedy's life after he was shot. this oral history took place in the summer of 1997 on the sixth floor museum in dallas. that is about 45 minutes. call when you heard or you thought you might have heard about him coming to dallas on a political trip? >> i knew he was coming, but there was a lot of, as i'm sure you are, negative statements in the paper about kennedy and some real hateful stuff in the paper. we were aware of that. i thought that at the time -- i didn't think that was going to help anybody. so i didn't have any real

thoughts about his coming. >> did that cause at the hospital -- i guess particularly since this was a place where someone who had -- what happened was brought, was there any advanced preparation in any way, just a contingency plan if something happened while the president was in the city? >> no. as a matter of fact, one of the big differences then and now is not just -- not only the hospitals preparation, but the secret service preparation for presidential visits. at that time, there hadn't been a president assassinated in probably 50 years. i don't know the exact time, and it never really -- it never seriously occurred to anybody that the president would actually be harmed. at least to anybody that i knew. the -- >> go ahead. >> as you're well aware if a president visits any city, the secret service precedes him. they select the hospital where he'll go. they select the physician.

a whole situation is set up. his medical records are made available. he's followed by a paramedic van etc. in 1963, there was -- as far as i know and i'm pretty sure i know this, no preplanning. the reason they came to parkland is because they were headed that way and that's where all the injured patients went. we didn't -- there was no selection of hospital or letting us know his blood type or anything else. so -- >> so the secret service -- while they had been around tow town -- >> yes. i'm confident they -- >> with the pra raid crowd and the luncheon arrangements and all this, as far as you know, they never came -- never came to the hospitals? >> no hospital arrangements. certainly there was no information provided about the president's health status or anything like that. >> well, zeroing in on the day of november 22, 1963, kind --

can you kind of reconstruct your day for us and did you get to the hospital overnight or get up that morning en >> right. i don't remember the early morning, but the -- i was on actually assigned to surgery c which is an elective surgery service. it was our day to admit patients. so we came in -- i'm confident we came in early moe thanning, made rounds. it was also our clinic day. we didn't operate that day. we had our basic office, so we -- early in the morning, probably 8:30 or 9:00 went over to the clinic and started seeing both patients who were operated on and both patients who are being evaluated for new operations. about 11:30, we were getting pretty close to through with our clinic. we got a call from the emergency room that there were three patients down there to be evaluated for admission.

this was not president kennedy, this would be for three patients who had come to park land for care. the -- and somebody needed to go down -- one of our service needed to go down and start seeing the patients and evaluating them. we also had scheduled a special x-ray where a patient had blood clots in his lungs, and somebody had to go down and participate in doing that x-ray study. the x-ray study sounds like a lot more fun than working up three patients. so jerry gustafsson who was a year ahead of me in the program and i flipped and he won the coin flip. he had the privilege of going to do the x-ray study and i weptsd down to the emergency room to start evaluating the patients that we were going to end up admitting. so that's how i got down to the emergency room. >> there's why you were there an hour later. >> yeah. just about 12:30, yeah.