caldwell talks about the immigrant experience in europe. and later, a debate on the legacy of former british prime minister, winston church i will. . .63ñ

>> i began to write about it in 1989. i covered the twcoup panama. i was interested in this. then, the berlin wall came down. the cold war ended. they were totally and interested in sending and journalists to latin america to cover anything, but i kept this interest in latin american culture. i covered immigration in the united states. i love the topic of immigration. midway through the 1990's, when i was thinking of going to tijuana to write a book on tijuana, it occurred to me that immigration in europe was not

really developing along the same lines as the american one was. it was much more disruptive. there were more problems for the society. it was much more traumatic for the people who live there. i started reporting on that. at first, for the atlantic monthly. that was in the late 1990's. when september 11 happened, there was a lot of interest in these communities and how well they were assimilated and what their ideas were and what the europeans were doing about them and i wound up making dozens and dozens of trips. >> you said that we have about 35 million people who were born in other countries to live in the united states. in europe, what is the population? hear, hear it is rendered 7 million -- here is 207 million.

>> it is now the e.u. 25. the 50 states make up the union. they have a population of about 400 million. there are about 50 million people living outside their country of birth. they are not all from outside of europe. a significant portion of them are. a significant proportion of the non european immigrants are now about 20 million moslems. >> your figure on the united states is 2 million muslims, here. >> it really varies greatly, depending on how you reckon in black muslims. whether you count them and the group. there are arguably, millions of those. yes, muslim immigration to the

united states is much smaller. it is an exponentially larger phenomenon in europe. largely because of the countries they are next to. they are right next to north africa in the brothel -- in the way we are right next to latin america. >> there are 5 million foreign- born in france. >> that is about right. >> 4 million in germany. >> germany, there has been revision in statistics over the summer since this book was published. there are about 7.5 million foreign-born foreigners as they are called in germany. germany has a funny way of counting these things. it counts certain people born in germany as foreigners. that is if they do not have german citizenship.

there are 7.5 million foreigners in germany. >> out of 80 million? >> it is a shrinking population. out of about 70 million. there was a radical revision in the number of muslims in germany. it had been thought that there were 3 million, but the interior ministry did another cow earlier this year and can up with a figure of 4.5. >> of the 60 million people in britain, are the 2 million foreign-born? >> i believe the foreign-born number is higher than that. britain is very in precise about counting these things. they have changed their ways in the past few years. >> what kind of immigrant is there that is a muslim in

germany? >> it has evolved over time. the beginning of the immigration to europe had to do with extreme means of reconstruction after world war ii. you had cities entirely destroyed. much of the labor force was killed. there was a lot to build. when that happened, countries with empires, such as britain and the netherlands, france, brought people from their old empires. countries without empires, like germany, signed bilateral agreements with poorer country , starting with europe and in stretching. the usual -- no one was really thinking about what religion

these people were when they drew up these agreements. your typical muslim immigrant to europe in the 19 fifties was a liberal. it was one guy coming to work at a steel mill or a coal mine or to be an engineer on a subway car. they would work in a lace mill in france. but as time went on, let's take the example of germany that you mentioned, as time went on, this system of bringing in guest workers, as it were called, for two year periods, businessmen realize it was not the most efficient way to do it. to get a guest worker, you had to send a recruiter. you had to send a team of the value leaders. you had to send that doctors to turkey. did you would get a guy and he comes to germany and he works out great -- and then you would

get a guy and it comes to germany and he works out great. it is an expensive process to send him back and get a guy that is not as good. some of these people have families. -- had families. the reuniting these people with families -- the world reuniting these people with families. this happens in most mass immigration. today, only a very, very small number of immigrants are for labor purposes. a far larger number are for family reunification. >> back to germany, how many of those 7.5 million are turks? >> turkey -- there were many

countries in the guest worker program. turkey the soon took up the preponderant -- came to be the major country in the guest worker program. in the course of the program, therefore 18 million turks that came to germany. -- there were 80 million turks that came to germany. i -- it there were 18 million turks -- the there were 18 million turks that came to germany. >> how many are algerians and moroccans? >> france is very difficult for statistics. france has had a very radical idea of citizen equality. there is no such thing, in the eyes of the state, there is no

such thing as an algerian frenchman or a muslim frenchman. there is only frenchman. the best demographers in france, the very best of my bursdemograe up with a number that is lower of the number of muslims in france. i think those are fairly evenly distributed about 1 million a piece of the three north african countries, with a smattering of people from elsewhere. these numbers are extremely in precise. >> in great britain, is that the majority of the muslims? >> in northern india, i would

say that the largest group is pakistan is that live primarily in the north and then those that live in the south where the london population are bengali. >> the way that your looks at immigrants and the way united states look at immigrants different. what's the title of this book, "reflections on the revolution in europe: immigration, islam, and the west.," has been a question. in what sense is this a revolution. -- a revolution? >>it has been similar to ours in the past few decades. the percentages are about the

same the role of the dominant culture and immigration, in europe's case, the moslem culture -- the muslim culture, that is about the same. the big difference is that this is our second wave of mass immigration. we have one that started in the middle of the 19th century and lasted until 1925. that revolutionized the united states. the country that we started out with at the beginning of that migration was not the same as the country we wound up with several decades later. several decades later, we had an idea of ourselves as a nation of immigrants. we were much more content with the assumption that the america we know now may be something different in our grandchildren's time. this is when people began to talk about the american

experiment. ok q? they do not think of themselves as an experiment. they think of themselves as firmly anchored cultures that have been the same in their essence if not in their outward manifestations for about a thousand years. they are really uncomfortable with this idea of becoming a continent of immigrants. that, i would say is the rock- bottom difference. >> and near the end of your book, on page 349, i found this sentence. wgo back to the beginning of

that, islam is the madness of religion. why do you say that? >> my goodness, you just have to travel around the middle east and look at the tremendous monuments that the was constructed -- that were constructed in its name. the mosques in turkey, the library's, the literary culture that resulted, the beautiful calligraphy and designs if you visit in spain. it remains a culture. we have to grant the diversity of islam. it is a very diverse -- it has many manifestations around the world. if you hear a group sitt singin,

it is impressive. you have to respect their ability to stick to this even in the midst of the globalization. what i am criticizing is the tendency to say that is long has always been a part of europe. people tend to use all these euphemisms to talk about the way islam and europe have interacted over the centuries. islam, for most of the past 1300 years, has been an enemy of europe. europe absorb things -- absorbent things -- a sort things. islam was a superior culture --

europe absorbed things. most of the people disliked the united states. they listen to michael jackson. they absorb our culture in many ways. i am not saying that it is impossible for europe and islam to get along today. the conditions are different. we have globalization. but you cannot look at this as something inevitable. it is not what the patterns of history tells us is the likely outcome. >> your own background, when did you first get into this business of writing? >> oh boy, i was always interested in writing. i grew up loving books. >> was that? what i grew up in massachusetts

-- >> where was that? >> i grew up in massachusetts. i do not think i ever seriously entertained doing anything else. maybe been a great poet or a novelist would have suited the better as i saw things in my teens, but after a stint in publishing, i found my way into journalism in washington and have been doing that for about 20 years. >> where did you go to college? >> i went to call -- harvard. >> wanted to study? >> i studied english. >> what year did you graduate? >> 1983. bucs where are you posted? >> i am a weekly editor. i write for the "weekly

standard." i write a column in column" financial times." i but article for the "new york times." i write for other people would interesting projects,. >> where would you put yourself on the political spectrum? >> it may sound funny, but i do not pick of myself as an extremely political person. temperamentally, i am quite conservative. i am sure that that influx a lot of the political -- inflects a lot of the political opinion that i hold. i do try to approach every subject that i am dealing with as a journalist, as if i were

just born and without preconceptions. >> what kind of conservatism? >> i don't know. it has changed over time. i tend to think that there is a lot of wisdom and tradition. i have they don't fix it kind of attitude. i would say that as a younger man, i was more of a libertarian conservative. i think azide age, i have become more of a -- i think as i have aids, i have become more of a conservative. -- i think, as i had ageave agei

have become more of a conservative. there are books that are pessimistic about the immigration situation in europe and they take a dim view of islam. i don't think i do. i think that this book, and correct me if you think i am long, i think this book is very respectful of islam -- courtney if you think i think this book is very respectful of islam -- correct me if you think i am lonwrong. i think that the steady this of familial and religious traditions looks like a pretty good alternative to lot of rational people who are newcomers to europe. >> you dedicate your book to sell the. who is she? >> she is my wife. >> we were rigidly gore to take

this interview, but you had to cancel. that was for a funeral. >> that was for my father-in- law, robert novak. needless to say, we will miss him terribly. >> how long did you know him? >> how well did i know him? >>to the extent that you can know anyone, i knew him pretty well. we were pretty close. i loved him. i was proud to have him as a father-in-law. we did not talk too much about politics and things like that. our real kashered interests -- shared interests were things like baseball and history.

i mean, he was a constant churn -- he was constantly churning history books. he always have interesting things to talk about that way. -- always had things interesting to talk about that way. i always found him an immensely reliable guide to go to for journalistic ethics questions if you have a situation like some guy wants to take you to dinner and you do not know exactly what he wants, what should you do. he was a rigorous question -- a resource person on questions like those. -- a rigorous person on questions like those. >> they had a funeral. we did not see the funeral.

was it closed? >> no, it was a public funeral. bucs we did not see him for a long time after he got brain cancer. maybe this is not a pair question, what was the end of his life like? >> he was very sick. it was a very serious cancer. as people will, in that situation, we were very full of hope. even as he declined, but this sort of brain cancer is very serious. courageous though he was, as much as he tried to put a brave and even humorous face on it, it was a pretty steep decline. he was able to write two or

three columns, which meant a lot to him. one of them was about his disease. that was shortly after he was diagnosed. when he was diagnosed, he was diagnosed the same day after he had a massive seizure. he was debilitated by that. he quickly lost the ability to do serious journalistic work that he loved to do. >> just because they seem to be combined, did senator kennedy and bob novak ever talk? >> yes. it was more geraldine and vicki. it's illogical differences like that -- it illogical --

ideological differences did not mean that much to my father-in- law in his life. i cannot say enough about the generosity that the kennedy family showed to my mother-in- law at that time. i think that that's sort of episode tends to be bigger than politics. do you know what i mean? >> 3 under 34, " -- -- 334 -- page 3 of the 34. -- page at 334 -- >> it is interesting. i would not call myself an opponent of the iraq war.

it certainly was something that one over the book. what would not call myself an apartment -- an opponent of the rock were, -- of the iraq war, i would say that i supported it on a different rationale. which makes it -- which is one reason i have been surprised to see this book described as an expression of support for american foreign policy because i think having read the book, and perhaps the people that lead to the executithat conclusion, t

see that in there. i think it affected the way this book was written to ri. i tend not to the eight paulsa , political writer. i am describing a situation. i am not writing a policy brief to europeans. i think the fact that most of my conversations that i had with muslim immigrants and european politicians and academic experts on this sort of thing, since most of those conversations were in the context of the iraq war, during which europeans were reluctant

to take any advice from americans, it might have further dampened my desire to sound like mr. bossy pants. what you get in this book is a description of the situation as it is on the ground. not any sort of a manifesto of what europeans ought to do about it. >> what did 9/11 have -- what impact did 9/11 have? >> it is a very tricky thing to disentangle. at the time it happened, there were certain tendencies that were already ripening in european life. i think that with the fall of the berlin wall, and the removal of the soviet threat,

europeans felt that solidarity with america was much less prison for it on top of all that, all these countries had been shaped, 45 years, by an american presence. they had all sorts of molded into something that was more american than what they were used to. there were yearning for a good deal of independence from the united states. before september 11, there were plenty of issues on which it appeared that europeans were born to create a pretext -- were born to create a pretext -- were going to create a pretext. it was a major human rights issue between europe and the united states. i think that your felt the need for space between the united

states. if it had not been the iraq war, if europe and america had not diverged over the reaction to september 11, there would have diverged over something else. >> back to that page where you said that george bush's act was a blunder in europe. you have a quote that i want to read. who is he? >> he is a commentator on the left ofor "the guardian." he packs a lot of information into a short space. i am using him as a representative of this tendency of europe wanted to pull away

from the united states. >> let me read this. >> >> well, i think that is an extreme example of a writer who expects an awful lot of people. thousands of people were slaughtered and he comes out to say that, come to think of it,

the bombers were right and greet wrong. -- and we were wrong. september 11, it has a great resonance throughout this book. september 11 is an immigration story. one of the things that has always haunted me about it, and there are many things that haunt me about, there was a mission that consisted of 20 people who were operating in western countries. much of that time, in europe. they were not just popping in and out. a debris here for a couple of years -- they were here for a couple of years before the attacks. all it would have taken for the

attack to come apart would be for one of those guys to say, "you know what, this is really a culture with a lot to say for itself." or for someone to have fallen in love. >> or for someone to say that they did not like what the person is doing. that did not happen. no one was changed. i find that quite hunting. it means that, to people landed on the shores in the west, the appeal of the west is certainly there, but it is not glaringly obvious and it does not

transform people. >> what year did you start your research for this book? >> it is up to say. as i say, i started writing about muslim immigration to europe in the late 1990's. but, the interest in this really picked up after september 11. there were certain episodes. in 2002, you had the [unintelligible] in the west bank where there was a lot going on. there was a certain radicalization of muslim youths, particularly, in france, especially. there were a lot of attacks on jews. at one point, there were happened at about a number of five or six a day.

that episode, in the spring of 2002, sort of convinced me that there might be something really, gravely serious. after that, when that did not really abate for quite awhile, i went going over -- i started going over more frequently. it was a matter of course that i would gather all of this material into a book. >> were there times when you went, "oh, now i am beginning to really understand this?" >> i can't think of one. >> did you change your mind in any way from the beginning of your research until you finish the book? >>-- the finished the book --

finished the book? >> i am quite pathetic to immigration. i certainly have been in the united states. i know why immigrants, and i know how difficult it is for immigrants to be there. so, i was not predisposed to see a problem in all immigration. but, that is not the book that i was -- to describe the immigrants and the experiences and their motivations in coming is not the book that i set out to right. i set out to write a book a

transformation of european culture. one thing that surprised me is how deeply europe's institutions and values were being changed. i suppose that a big surprise to me is that a large part of the price that europeans pay for immigration is in the form of rights. when you shift from been a culture -- beat a culture of norms -- a being a cultural norms, you lose a lot. rather than letting people go about their business, you set ground rules on how people interact. like, for instance, the french

law against the veil. the french were very troubled about young schoolgirls wearing the veil. they felt that it would be unduly harsh to muslims if they just said that muslim girls cannot wear the veil. so, the but this whole elaborate process. they got some legislation set up. it would ban the sale, it would ban the yarmulkes -- it would ban the sale, the yarmulkes -- it would ban the veil, the yarmulkes, and the large cross. nicholas r. possarkozy traveledo

egypt to meet with a chsheik. that is what you call it with the vatican says that there is nothing with this going forward -- with the vatican says that there is nothing wrong with this going forward that, i suppose, mike, as an eye opening moment. -- might be an eye opening moment. everyone knew it would take a lot of money. it would involve certain sacrifices of rights. that is something that has become clear to me over time. >> today, if you lived in france, can you wear the veil? >> you can wear it in public.

this law affected only government buildings. it goes back to this citizenship where everyone is supposed to be equal. the french state has always felt a great deal of liberty and has always taken a lot of liberty to say that you all have to do this exactly the same way. it is consistent with the french republic of tradition. -- republic tradition. you are not allowed in a french hospital to say that you prefer a doctor of your own sex. but, there is agitation, now, in france. most of it is pushed forward by nicholas are sarkozy.

a writer pointed out that they are not talking about the burger, it is the total -- the burka. >> in europe, what has happened since the borders came down? >> that is a big part of my story. you know, i should make clear that this book goes at this problem at every conceivable angle. one of the most important ones is the european union. the european union, which was started as a group of six countries in the 1950's has got bigger and bigger. there are no longer any passport controls in europe. when you are in europe kahlah

you can go anywhere you want. >> to the 25 countries? >> well, to the 15. there are still some restrictions on the 12 noon eastern european countries did -- new eastern european countries. sokolov there is freedom of movement within the european -- so, there is freedom of movement within the european union. all of the european countries have kept control over their own national immigration policies. everyone guard's his own door on the outer world -- guards his own door on the outer world. is it a logical situation. what has happened -- it is an illogical situation.

not just border controls, in fact border controls are not the most important thing. you can fly and as a tourist or an asylum seeker and you stay. it is more of which country has the softer touch in terms of excepting stories for political asylum? -- accepting stories for political asylum? that is one reason that both of those countries had a very large asylum population. you had a strong reaction against immigration in the last half decade. in most recent years, it has been spain. spain gave amnesty to thousands of undocumented immigrants about five years ago that was only the

latest -- about five years ago. that was only the latest. what they were doing was basically giving these people european citizenship and inviting them to go to other european countries that had more generous welfare states that spain did. -- dan spain did -- than spain did. >> you've tried this. -- you write this. >> that is what i was talking about a little earlier. i started this book begin that

america as a nation of immigrants is kind of a cliche. now i realize it is a very profound thing to be a nation of immigrants, to think of yourself as a nation of immigrants, is to surrender a certain amount of control over what your country is going to be like as time develops. you know, you and i live in this country and realize that our country is born to be largely shaped, 100 years from now, but people who are not here now and they may have different ideas. our country, for all its greatness, has a great as that drifts. will think of their countries as permanent things.

they think of their country as something that doesn't draift. if it were to persist with massive immigration, they need to get used to -- if they are going to persist with massive immigration, they need more control over their future. when i say that, i do not ever mean to say that immigration is because of all the changes that europe is undergoing, now. it is the cause of many of them. it is a symptom of the others. it tends to go with certain other phenomena, like deregulation of the economy and women's rights and the spread of human rights, all of which are part of the american style of alignment. >> after all the traveling you have done, if you have to pick a country to go with them question

-- to go live in? >> i am happy to live in the united states. >> but if? >> for the things i like, to someone in massachusetts, the netherlands is a very pleasant country. it is very busnice. it may look like a left wing ery. there is a tendency to push every social experiment to its illogical conclusion. there is a certain citizen involvement in politics. a certain practice about the netherlands that i find

attractive. >> -- a certain frankness about the balance that i find attractive. >>-- double the lives that i fid attractive. -- netherlands that i find attractive. >> how significant is that going to be? >> the european population decline is very significant. europeans are very uncomfortable talking about demographics. talk of demographic decline was really rife in the 1930's when racism was rife and eugenics was rife. they are uncomfortable approach in this topic. but it does provide -- is an

indispensable, factual basis for what is going on in your now. -- in europe now. the average woman is going to have 2.1 children in the course of her lifetime to replace the population and to keep the population at the same size. if the average woman does not, the population shrinks. i have looked at the work of some demographers, especially david coleman. when you get down to 1.8, the population is really shrinking. at the end of a century, you are going to have a country about two-thirds the size. when you get down to the level that europeans are at in some countries, which is 1.3 children, then the country

starts imploding. you have -- you will fall down to about a quarter of your population. at that point, if you want to keep your institutions going, if you want to keep your buildings in repair, if you want to keep your parks open, if you want to keep your cities from turning into ghost towns are if you want to keep your economy running, did you need immigration -- or if you want to keep your economy running, then you need immigration. they did not have the need for this population replacement when mass emigration began, but now, i would say that it does face the choice between keeping its population the same and keeping

its institution the same 3 >> what is the birth rate between white europeans verses the muslim at all of that -- the muslims -- the muslim europeans and all that? it varie>> it varies from counto country, they have not yet converged absolutely. there is an awful long period of time where the immigrant population grows relatively faster than the native population. so, one needn't be unhappy about this and this need not be a calamity. you are in a situation where the

percentage of the population that comes from its roots in immigration will grow in europe, even if not another immigrant sets foot in europe. >> you mentioned that europeans are uninterested in paying for their defense. americans are still all over the place. there are still 70,000 troops deployed. >> i did not go into that too much in the book. the cost of keeping troops in europe is not really what i'm talking about. is more about the american defense guarantee that has freed up a lot of european energies and a lot of government resources for other things. i think i wrote that in the context of this desire that i

mentioned for a little more european independence from the united states. before they can have that, they are quick to be -- they are going to need to be more independent. >> what do you think our relationship will be? will immigration increase? >> well, in general, i am very reluctant to predict the future. this is very dependent on policy. it is dependent on mentalities. if you were predicting what would be the nature of ethnic relations in the united states in 1965, at the time of the passage of the civil rights act, certain people would have said it would get worse and certain

people would say that it would get better. 10 years later, the people that would say it would get worse would be right and the people that said it would be better, 20 years later, would be right. this is a complex process. i think that one thing that seems clear is that europe is headed into a more descriptive direction in terms of immigration policy. in the context of race, one of the big problems europe has is the race problem. we have immigration on one hand and we have a place on the other. -- race on the other. there are two separate problems. the result is, you can see

changes in immigration policy without being accused of bigotry. the people that wanted change in european immigration policy were routinely accused of bigotry. i think that that is changing now. i think that you see a growth of an attitude among mainstream politicians that europe ought to be able to set whatever immigration policies it likes, as any sovereign state would. >> what book is this for you? >> in? >> it is numero uno. i really love the process of synthesis involved in writing a

book. i find it much harder than writing articles. when i wrote my book, i did not want it to be a collection of articles masquerading as a book. i think this book has a real art to its argument as an argument would. to have each chapter parking as an article, but to have the whole book pararching in its own way, every single step takes twice as long as you think it is going to do. i have really enjoy the process of writing. >> christopher caldwell, author of "reflections on the revolution in europe: immigration, islam, and the west." thank you for joining us. >> thanks. >> for a dvd copy of this

program, called 1-877-662-7726. for free transcripts, or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at c- spanq&a.org. >> next, a discussion on legacy of winston churchill. then, at 11:00 p.m., another chance to see "q&a" with christopher caldwell.

>> tomorrow, on a "washington journal," joaquin talks about azar is -- neil kinnocg, chuck hawkins, gary get slurred talks about the collapse of lehman brothers -- gary gensler talks about the collapse of lehman brothers. "washington journal," live at 7:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. >> a senate appropriations subcommittee hearing explores the extent to which cell phone use can affect human health as well as the potential side effects and consequences of cell phone use. live, tomorrow, at 2:00 p.m.

eastern on c-span3. >> next month, a unique look at our nation's highest court, its will, traditions and history. >> i don't think it's an understatement to say that this building would not be here if it hadn't been for the persistence of chief justice taft. >> taft had in mind that it needed a building of its own. when he became chief justice, it became almost an obsession 3 >> supreme court week, starting october 4 on c-span. go on line, now, for historic photos c-span.org/supreme court. >> dow, a debate on winston churchill. historians and others argue whether he