asset to the free world. speakers include pat buchanan, and andrew roberts. this is about one hour 50 minutes. . .

>> first the rules of this debate. the intelligence debate, you will have voted as you came into the hall. after the six speakers have spoken, you will get a chance to vote again. and to test the power of debate. you will do this in your seats. you don't need to worry. it will come round to you and you will be making your vote while the speakers are doing a summing up. and while the count takes place, each speaker will also do their final summing up and right at the end, we declare the results. and we're going to pose the motion, churchill was more of a liability than asset to the real world, it propose that motion, from pat buchanan, from a career in european lism -- journalism he became advisor to three u.s.

presidents and was himself twice accounted for the republican nomination. in his years, he wrote foreign policy speeches and attended summitts. he's published 10 books, including appropriate for tonight's debate, churchill, hitler and the unnecessary war. pat buchanan. >> thank you. to borrow, from the grathe great caesar, we're thought here to praise mr. churchill but to bury him. let me concede the greatness of the man. in the final hour of the british nation, 1940, winston churchill was an inspir race to men everywhere. he was the lion who gave the british nation its roar of defiance in the teeth of nazi

germany. for that he will be honored forever. if we judged him on that year alone, there would be no debate here. there would be union nimity. but churchill's career did not last a single year. it lasted for half a century. over that century, i submit, no other career of the western statesman was more clam tis for his country and civilization than that of winston spencer churchill. more than any other british leader in 1914 and 1939, churchill lusted for war and pushed his country to turn two european wars into world wars. so germany might be destroyed. both times churchill succeeded. and history records that those

wars, that together took the lives of perhaps 100 million europeans, were the mortal blows that advanced the death of the west. it was winston churchill who led the west in its advance to barbarism. as first lord on the first days, he instituted a starvation blockade that violated all of the rules of warfare, including those advocated by lord salisbury that brought death to 100 times as many german civilians as those killed by the army. churchill's purpose, was, he said hymns, quote, the start of the whole population, men and women and children, old and young and wounded and found and into submission. four months after germany laid down its arms in 1919, the starvation blockade remained in

force. and churchill rose in parliament to exalt, we're enforcing the blockade with rigor. and germany is near starvation. that led to hitler. in the n-1920, a secretary for war, churchill enraged by iraqi existence -- resistance to british rule proclaimed, i'm strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes. he spread terror. years later, saddam hussein and chemical ali were hanged in baghdad for doing what churchill urged and what britain did. the day he became prime minister in 1940, as the army was breaking through, churchill directed his bombers not against ramal's panzers but against rynland cities.

that was what your own historian ball johnson called a critical stage in the moral de-- te tense of humanity in our time. coveantry and the blitz were war crimes but they were also raids for terror bombing begun by churchill. the climax came in 1945, with thunder clouds. the fire bombing of dresden, and the florence of the el be, a defenseless city of a te feeted nation, packed with refugees, fleeing the serial rapist of the red army. estimates of the dresden dead rargee range from 35,000 to 250,000. but he was a great strategist we're told. the greatest debackible of world were was costing 40 million british -- and winston

churchill, the greatest british debackible was norway when the invading marines arrived 24 hours after german troops had landed and occupied the more wiegen ports. and architect of the disaster, first lord of the admirality, winston churchill. within historian suggested that the norway operation was blown by churchill himself, blabbing his plans to press at attach shays that was picked up by german intelligence. that historian, a mr. andrew roberts. one of churchill's statesmen. and britain demanded, and agreed to strap hundreds of ships and severe a 20-year alliance with japan that had been faithful. and churchill urged cap pit

lation to americans. and japan began dismantling the greatest navy in the world. and british historian called for cap pit lation to america's demands at churchill's insistence, one of the major catastrophes of english history. fine years later, chancellor said, don't worry war is not a possibility, which any government need to take into account. when churchill was prime minister, singapore fell and the empire was finished in asia and hit her marched into the rynland in 1936, churchill hailed the french for taking the matter to the league of nations but the ideal solution he would note, is hitler to march back out of the rynland. unfortunately hitler did not read that excellent column.

in 1939, mr. churchill pushed his country to go to war for poland. britain did. and was bowl land saved? instead of losing dan zag, the polls -- poles lost 6 million dead and 50 years of freedom. a churchill's four years of piecement of stalin made nevel chamberlain at municipal nick look like davey crockett at the alamo. at moscow, and tehran and malt that. churchill told stalin he could keep the fruits of his devil's pack with hitler, including the bal tick republics. and they went to moscows demands and in violation of the solemn pledges he gave in the atlantic charter. when he came back in 1945, churchill told parliament, i know of no government that stands to its obligations more

solidly than the russian soviet government. churchal then gave his ben addition to the mexico most bar bar i think act mr. history, the expulsion of 13 million german old men and women and children from their ancestral homes in eastern and central europe. 2 million. two million died. and all of the great capitals of central and eastern europe, warsaw and prague and vina were occupy by -- occupied by stalin's red army. britain was broken, the empire collapsing and the americans were going home but this was there consolation, and haley was back on his thrown. and when churchill entered the inner cabinet, britain was the first nation on earth and ruler of the greatest empire since roam. when he left in 1945, britain was an island dependency of the united states.

he was a great man at the cost to his country's greatness. thank you. >> andrew roberts, historian and writer who spent 20 years researching churchal and the second world war. his first book was a by greaf of lord halifax, churchill's foreign secretary. and among other books, "secrets of leadership" "masses and commanders" and" the storm of war." and andrew roberts. [applause] >> winston churchill was not just an asset to the free world, he was its champion. he was the champion on five

major occasions. it was he who mobilized the grand fleet at the outbreak of the great wars, the guns of august and the salvos of the guns of august were being heard. he made sure the royal navy was ready and was unable and would not lose the war in an afternoon. and in the 1930's he warned at great personal political cost to himself, about the threat that nazi germany posed to western civilization. in play 1940, only prime minister for a few days, he opposed any deal, any peace deal, with adolph hitler and instead, he used, using his supreme sublime or tear, his pote tick ortory, he articulated the british's people's will to fight fascism. he did it in such way as to not

underestimate the sacrifices that was going to imply. his fourth great service to the free world was to formulate the grand strategy that drew down germany into the mediterranean and into north africa and then, to follow the strategy of attacking sicily and italy and only when we were ready, only when the -- the situation was right in the air and at sea to cross the channel in june 1944, in operation overlord. hen his fifth and last great contribution to the free world was in the iron curtain speech of march 1946, in missouri, to warn the world of the peril that it faced from soviet communism and from joseph stalin. a peril that was being seen in eastern europe already at the time and was going to spread into the wider world. and he didn't live to see that victory. but he set us on the path and he

set the moral parameters necessary for the victory that we have seen in our life-time. it is rarely given, ladies and gentlemen, for even one man to be able to show such service, to render such service to the free world. and -- even one time in history, let alone five times. he wasn't just an asset to the free world. he was its exemplar. he was its pal tan. and indeed, we on the opposition will seek to show you tonight, how had it not been for winston churchill, there might not even have been a free world. and did he make mistakes? yes. he did. he was the house of commons between 1900 and 1964, nearly two-thirds of the century. the man was flesh and blood. he made mistakes, of course he did. as you heard a few of them and you'll hear dozens more, i'm sure from the proposition this

evening. but ladies and gentlemen, they are mere pimples on the mountains of his achievements. and you'll hear these mistakes of his lovingly charted out, not all of them accurately by the way when winston churchill was writing about -- about poison gas in iraq, if you actually had read the entire context, what it is clear he's talking about is the -- is tear gas, because he talks about making the -- the eyes of the people -- use the same thing -- we use against mobsters. it is different than zikonb which pat buchanan was attempting to equate it with. you'll hear these arguments and you'll hear that hitler did not pose a threat to britain and the empire. and ladies and gentlemen, this is utterly false. adolph hitler hated our liberal

democracy quite as much as he hated bowl sheriff vicks. had he won against russia he would have come against us. he ripped every treaty he ever signed but the hiss storne in churchill, ladies and gentlemen, the historian in churchill noted and saw, how you cannot allow a aggressive jarmenistic power to dominate europe. we didn't in our we didn't allow spain to do or napoleon to do it or the kaiser to do it. and winston churchill was sure as hell motte about to allow a phone flex genocidal maniac like adolph hitler to do it. we meet in the hall tonight. it was the largest air-raid shelter in the u.k. during the second world war.

it was the place from which general did you gall launched his movement during the early part of the war in 1940. and it was the place on the 15th of march, 1945, churchill told the british people, victory lies before us. certain and perhaps near. and ladies and gentlemen, please, don't sully the -- the fine history of this splendid hall for voting for such a grat dueuously absurd motion. i beg it oppose. >> to second the motion, the motion that churchill was more a liability than an asset to the free world, just reminding you of the -- of the wording of that motion, is nigel knight. he's a political scientists and economist and fellow of

churchill cam bridge and member of the political factory board of cam bridge university. and after that he taught at oxford and was active in political life as an advisorer and policy writer. here's the author of churchill, the greatest britain unmasked and of governing britain since 1945. flyingal knight. nigel knight. >> i won't sully the hall but in respect of churchill, ostensibly the greatest britain. the great visionary, the man that could see the things that the rest of us couldn't. well, churchill in the 1920's, 24 to 29 was the second, he reintroduced the gold standard in 1925. this was a policy that john maynard canes, the greatest economist of his generation

warned against. churchill went ahead with the policy in 1925. and canes wrote a seminal piece, the economic consequences of mr. churchill. this which cane's had the vision, he warned, consequences of that polls. he warned there would be a depression. canes was correct. and the resultant recession in the british economy, through the 1920's weakened this economy severely. and it meant that come the 1929 wall street crash the xi was much more severely affected than would have been the case without that policy. policy which of course had to be reversehood 1931. and it came off the gold standard forever. also, as as an act in the 120s, he he restrained defense

expenditure at the very time with adolph hitler and the nazi party were rising in germany. and muss leaney was in power in italy. and the prospective japanese military threat was already recognized by the admirality, from 1924. and yet, as late as the summer of 1941, churchill was still admitting that britain and the united states had no direct threat from japan. through the years, in the 130's and it must be remembered that churchill is warning us of the growing threat of -- of nazi germany and exhorting us to rearmour quickly. and verse the economy had been immensely weakened given that britain was a major power, a major economy at that time. of course the economic quebses were not just felt in this

country but globally. with churchill's policy and turning to the gold standard but the most important aspect of rearmament in the 1930's, what would enable us in 1940 in the battle of britain to do the only thing which this country could do on its own, to defend these islands from invasion. and to insure that britain became the unsinkal aircraft carrier from which the second flight was launched, that was accomplished with -- with two fighters, and the hurricane and the spitfire and the ministry requirement for those fighters was ahead down in 1934. in ramsey mcdonald's government. the two aircraft first flew in stanley baldwin's last government. they together, with radar, together with a whole sector and group of control system, were introduced into service, during

nevel chamberlain's government. come 1940, when churchill was prime minister, and had responsibility for this system, wonderful system, and churchill then foisted those fighter resources and sending them to france, to proper collapsing french state. and few doubting, quite hero of mine. in a seminal letter, told churchill this would lead to the defeat of this country. stop churchill. during the battle of britain, churchill then exhorted and threw britain's forces into attacks. a strategy that would be catastrophic. churchill himself eventually said, correctly, doubting was the architect of victory but if

churchill had had had his way, my goodness me. the next time britain had a victory was wo years later. and montgomery leading the eighth army another al amain. and churchill had wanted montgomery to throw britain's forces into a premature, ill prepared attack. montgomery said no. and montgomery insured that all of the resources necessary were harnessed before the, the famous battle of el amain, which we know went to heck. they hen with his meticulous planning, monty, insured victory. once again, a victory which was accomplished by a great commander, monty lacdo youry. but standing up to churchill and

showing the correct strategy was introduced. and churchill had a preworld war i, royal navy view of armored warship, battle ships. he didn't appreciate that the capital ship of the navy by 1940 had already become the aircraft carrier and up until too late did he realize the threats of the u boats. despite the fact that air power dispatched the italian fleet, and british air power, churchill sends, british battle ship, the prince of wales to the far eeth because they're inventionalible and they were promptly sunk and filmed for posterity. also in the far east, hong kong fell of course. singapore, and churchill had already sent a significant

proportion of british armed forces tout singapore. most of whom went into cabtivity without firing a shot. churchill explained, he didn't know that singapore was so poorly defended. the brilliant historian, a.j.b. taylor pointed out he did know and had done nothing. churchill's entire military strategy, in world war, ii was based on the paradigm of world war i. it became known as a disperseist strategy. pen ricks of military attacks around the periphery of hill her's feef dom, norway and greece and creet and sicily and italy. and an obsession with an attempt to launch an attack on the japanese from the northern tip

of sumatra but he comes back and again and again and completely opposed by the british military. now you cannot win a war by dispersionism, it is not possible. to win a war, you have to cannot sen trait forces. world war ii wasn't won by addition persianism. it was won by the consen stration of forces in the east in the soviet union and the concentration of forces -- by the western powers on the southwestern side. dispersionism, certainly cost lives. it lost battles. but it didn't. and couldn't. and couldn't win wars. and the fame your -- failure to concentrate resulted in -- in procrastin nation over the second front, and churchill had

it postponed from 142 to 143 and max hastings points out in his book, churchill would have had it postponed if the americans had not insisted we have a second front in 1944. so the delay created by this massive dispersionistic campaign, cost time and lives. in the last year of the war, 10 million lives were lost, in the europe theater. a terrible consequence for the world. as well as europe. delay, cost those lives. that's how churchill did it. thank you so much. [applause] >> next up to oppose the motion

is anthony beaver, historian whose books have different aspect of world war ii and beyond. most notably "creet the battle and resistance" and stalingrad and more recently "d-day and the battle for nor mandy" anthony beaver. [applause] >> i never expected to hear pat buickenen backing up putin's series that the british were responsible for world war ii. let's please concentrate on the key issues of the debate, whether or not churchal was an asset to the free world and when was that? the free world was most at risk during the second world war. so, you know, the gold standard or all of this stuff, let's concentrate on the really

important period. now, of course churchill made mistakes, in war who doesn't in but as hastings argues in his book, is that churchill made most of his when he was trying to galvanize the defensive mentality of britain's military establishment. he did adopt a peripheral strategy, so it had been the traditional strategy because we were off shore, we were an island, we did not have the sort of frses when could engage on straightforward terms with them on the ground. not at least until the americans came into the war. and we have heard once again, that if churchill had not delayed the invasion of france, first discussed in 1942 , then, the allies could have launched d-day in 1943 and the western allies could reach european well be t