new insight right now on rapist phillip garrido straight from the woman who police say bore his children in a secret back guard. jaycee dugard talking to cops how garrido interacted with their two girls. you've got to stick around for that. coming up, what a shocker, that night haleigh cummings vanished, stepmom misty wasn't even home. that is what her own brother told cops. investigators are draining a pond nearby. love hearing from you. the number 1-877-tell-hln. you can e-mail us.

cnn.com/primenews or hlntv, start your message with the word prime. it's your chance to be heard. welcome once again. i'm mike galanos. three huge developments in the kidnapping case of jaycee dugard. jaycee dugard is telling cops phillip garrido never laid a hand on the two girls. then big development number two, the search of garrido's home in california reaches a fevered pitch. two different sniffer dogs detected the scent of possible human remains. the mysterious black box garrido gave to his friend for safe keeping. we get into that for you. joining me henry lee, reporter

for the "san francisco chronicle." always stazy kaiser, psyc psychotherapist. henry, that is one of our fears, what garrido might have done to what we believe are his own daughters. what do we know? >> reporter: jaycee dugard is telling investigators according to sources that mr. garrido did not sexually assault her two daughters. jaycee was only 11. her daughters are 15 and 11. so that was the key question everyone was interested in. the answer thank goodness it looks like he didn't do anything to the daughters. >> this is jaycee telling law enforcement this, that is our source? >> that's correct. >> stacy, a couple of things. how difficult must it br for jaycee to talk to anyone except those closest to her? >> it has to be incredibly

difficult. this is a girl, a woman now, hiding and protecting secret nor most of her life. to reveal them has to be really traumatizing. >> we hope this is the case, stacy. a loot of people wonder what she has gone through mentally. could she be saying this to help her daughters avoid the embarrassment or stigma that would come with this or do you believe or are hoping it is the case. >> i hope it is true. i fear it is not likely. i have worked with a lot of adults who are molested as kids. they learn to hide and keep secrets and protect. it makes sense she would want to protect her children from that information getting out so they could lead normal lives. >> henry, what do we know, this question we get daily, how is jaycee doing? how are the girls doing? >> they are trying to readjust

to their new lives behind the scenes. we are not privy to reunions. the aunt told us a couple of years ago jaycee remembers her family and is trying to do the best under some very horrific circumstances. keep in mind for 18 years her name was alyssa, not jaycee dugard. she spent 11 years with garrido and his wife. >> do we know where they are? >> none of that is made public. >> stacy, take us through as a professional what could be going on as jaycee and the girls are trying to adjust to this new life? >> there are several issues. there is the reliving of the traumatic experience she has been through. she is probably replaying what took place all of those years in her mind. then there is a rebuilding of a

new life. this is somebody who had a whole other identity. now she is having to reconnect with her relatives, reacclimate with a new environment and deal with the issues in and around this case. >> how does that play out? we heard jaycee enjoys being with her mom. she is away from phillip and nancy garrido but could be brought to tears remembering and reliving what happened to her. >> we would imagine her emotions would be erratic. she would have a hard time sleeping. she would start to feel close to somebody and then feel hesitant because it is not safe. that it is a roller coaster for her. >> any guesstimate of what kind of timetable we are looking at before jaycee and the girls could even somewhat go out in public again? >> well, i'm hoping that they are getting counseling.

if they are that timetable could be shorter. it could take a few weeks or months. people are going to begin to recognize them. they have to deal with the issues of the press that the rest of us don't have to deal with. when we come back, the latest on the search in and around phillip garrido's home. an adjacent property a bone was found over a week ago. likely human. more bones found last week. what do we know about that? we'll take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln. palpapa

welcome back to prime news on hln. continuing to keep you updated with what is going on with jaycee dugard and her two girls. jaycee is telling law enforcement that phillip garrido did not molest the two girls she had with phillip garrido allegedly. we have our experts standing by. 1-877-tell-hln. henry lee is with us from the "san francisco chronicle." what is the latest on the search of garrido's property, the adjacent property? any more bones found, anything of interest found? >> there are a number of cadaver dogs expert in finding human remains and historic dogs that detektd bones up to 450 a.d. that search continues. >> let's bring in mike brooks.

henry mentioned an anomaly. what is going on with this search? what is an anomaly and what devices do you use? >> mike, using the ka nene dog. two separate dogs in this particular area. the fbi is assisting and use ground-penetrating radar. they will put out -- section it out into squares, grid sections. then go over it carefully and see -- it can go deep into the soil. if that happens they will see anomalies which is something buried under the ground other than dirt. it could be bones or anything ellsburied in the back yard. >> let's get a call. your comment or question? >> hi, how are you. thanks for showing so much emotion with that story. it is great to see you are

human. is anybody going to do dna testing on jaycee's two daughters they are not other kidnapped children. >> that they are what? >> not kidnapped children. >> i think we are pretty certain they are her daughters. but i'll ask henry lee. has there been testing to confirm that? jaycee has been through a lot here. >> we have not been told that, mike. you can bet dna tests will be made to confirm this angle. we have statutory rape and other charges at risk. they will dot every "i" and cross every "t." >> well put. another topic, henry. this black box, what is this? >> mr. garrido has claimed he

can speak in the voice of angels and contact god. when you have religious extremists, you have to take a look at that perhaps with a grain of salt. they might honestly believe they have a connectivity to a higher power. any time you have people of this nature doing things like this, you say people put on earphones garrido gave me and i can't hear anything. >> the black box says there are jacks. he says he could communicate with you through a black box? >> people have said i put it on and heard the ocean. i heard nothing of the sort. >> it could be religious extremism but it sounds like mental illness. sounds like he is delusional, schizophrenic. we might see more of that come out. >> why do you think he gives it

to a friend? is this his coming out party? hey, this is what i'm about? i can make sound happen or i can speak through sound in this black box? obviously, it sounds ridiculous. what do you make of that? >> he is the case of the emperor's new clothes. he had people indulging him and following him around. i think he feels it is real and he wanted someone to have his special possession. >> henry, what are people saying about this? what is the friend saying who received this black box object? >> they clearly think he might be off his rocker. listen to his songs he produced he is talking about loving little girls. you take a look at him and think something is wrong here. >> just awful. thanks for the update. coming up -- the night

haleigh cummings disappeared, misty's own brother telling the cops misty was not at home.

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with very cool styling and so affordable. at 40% off, just $299. from jennifer. welcome back to prime news on hln. an insane killer escaped at the spokane county fair in washington. why would anyone take the criminally insane on a field. >> translator: the fair on family day? fortunately this guy was recaptured without anyone getting hurt. he was on the run for four days. how is he going on a field trip on family day? unbelievable. where is the common sense? i want to hear from you, 1-877-tell-hln. unreal. we want to hear from you on this one as well. this just coming in, shocking revelations the night that haleigh cummings vanished, misty's brother tells the cops misty wasn't home. cops say misty had been

inconsistent. we know that since day one. could this be why? hours ago, investigators drained a pond nearby as well. a lot to get you updated in. we welcome back hln law enforcement analyst mike brooks and t.j. hart 97.3 fm in gainesville, florida. t.j., let's hit on what tommy croslin is say something. >> he said i was called by ronald. ronald was at work. he had not been able to reach misty by telephone. he called tommy to go down and check. they live a few yards from each other. he goes to the trailer where haleigh, junior and misty is supposed to be. he sees no lights on, no television. no sound of a radio.

nothing. dead quiet. knocked on the door, banged on the door, no answer. reluctantly he left. we have no word from law enforcement whether or not he called ron to tell him that news or not. but that is what we are getting from a conversation with croslin. >> what is he saying, were the kids there and she wasn't? >> he could not see anyone, could not hear anyone, not a light on in the house which is odd because they usually have a tv or movie playing in the home at that time. absolutely dead silent. he stopped short of saying not home. family members had been told this prior to this weekend with the draining of the pond. they all knew this. law enforcement thought it was

odd since the favorite sport in putnam county has been how many croslins can throw each other under the bus? misty had been in court with hank croslin jr. on an order of protection. mom and dad fled. they are living in tennessee on a moment's notice to live with misty's grandmother. cousin joe, the first croslin to be thrown under the bus. >> cousin joe. remember that name from a blast from the past. >> misty has been questioned. we don't know what the questions were at this point. major gary bowlen and the captain tell me it was nothing of value once again. they were very upset with that. >> let's bring in mike brooks. do we know this for sure that she wasn't there? it makes sense. she has been inconsistent with

her story. you would figure that if she wasn't there. >> she failed two law enforcement polygraphs, one private polygraph with tim miller's equisearch group who was asked to help. he was calling ronald, referring to her as my dumb "b" word girlfriend. what is going on here? there is one way to find out whether tommy is telling the truth. go back and law enforcement already knows this, check ronald's phone records to see if he did contact tommy. and then check ronald's phone to see if he tried to contact misty when she did not answer. that will be in the cell phone records that law enforcement has probably already checked out. >> they have checked ron's cell phone records for sure. >> any results? >> they are not telling us about that phone call in particular.

they said that he made that call and tommy received that call. i'm going with what law enforcement is reporting. >> tanya in new jersey, your comment or question here? >> how are you doing? is misty going to be charged with anything? if she wasn't there, endanging child welfare because she wasn't there? >> that is a good point. what happens next. mike, i go to you on this one. it is too early for charges but we are clearly seeing this fits with her inconsistencies here. >> what you need to file charges is something called probable cause. do they have enough? i don't think they have reasonable suspicion. there are so many inconsistencies. if tommy's lawyer said go ahead and do it, a polygraph. uuuuuuuuu

welcome back. we are excited about the latest edition to our primetime lineup. joy behar debuting tuesday september 29, 9:00 p.m. eastern on hln. what is going on in georgia? my home is dangerously close to being under water. day after day, it is not quitting this is what people are up against. it is a mess. joining me now to talk about

this i reporter jeff cofer. he is a homeowner trapped in this flood. also with us captain tommy rutledge from gwenette county. jeff, what is the deal here your subdivision is flooded out and trapped? >> yeah. we are on high ground but the main load to johnson ferry is completely flooded. the bridge is out and a couple of spaces in between here and the main road you can't get pass unless you are in a special vehicle. >> you are stuck there? >> yes. >> how are folks handling it? >> right now people are okay. we have enough food and we don't plan on needing to go out the next day or two. i passed some neighbors who walked four miles to and from the kroger.

i talked to other folks this afternoon when i tried to get out again. it is a big backup. people aren't sure what to do. >> they took the four-mile hike not knowing how long they would be stuck there to have some food to last through the night? >> evidently. >> wow. what is this we are looking at? >> this is a tributary. it goes into the chat hoochie to the right there. the entire area was flooded. i couldn't get out to it. i'm sure the people in the river front condos are being flooded out at this point. jeff, hang tight. want to get captain rutledge in with gwenette fire services. tell us about the rescues? >> we have been responding since

about 2:00 this morning numerous reports of people trapped in their homes or vehicles by rising water. it has been a very busy day for firefighters and dangerous for our personnel. two rescue boats capsized during rescue operations. a firefighter sustained a minor injury. everyone is okay in those situations. at this moment we continue to respond to reports of people in distress. they are not coming in as frequently, but we anticipate a busy night with the rain moving in. there are so many people trapped in their homes, needing assistance that firefighters and police officers were able to rescue all over our county. we did have one fatality. >> this was a lady trapped in her car and she was on the phone with 911. pick up the story. >> that is correct. the young lady did call 911.

she was trapped in her vehicle. she was giving information to 911 dispatchers and had called a family member on her cell phone. the vehicle was swept into a swollen creek. the current was moving very rapidly. unfortunately, before the swift water rescue team were able to reach her, she was found deceased in her vehicle. our thoughts and prayers are with the family. so far one fatality and very few injuries. >> i agree with you, thoughts and prayers with the family. we have one fatality in gwinnett county. we are getting the numbers in. tommy, one thing we can't stress enough, if you see a flooded roadway, turn around. don't try to cross. >> if you are in your vehicle,

please slow down, if you see standing water or moving water in the roadway, do not try to go through that. back up. seek a higher ground. do not go through that. if you do get into trouble try to get out of the vehicle if the vehicle is not moving, the roof is a safe point. if the water is rising in the vehicle opening the window is option we are encouraging for people to get out. if you don't have to be out in the weather, don't be. stay home. >> captain, thank you for your time. we wish you the best. hopefully folks are listening and it is a good night to stay home. jeff, thanks for your insight. incredible footage from your neighborhood. this story, just make you shake your head. an insane killer escapes at the spokane county fair in washington. this guy is a confessed killer.

slit a woman's throat yet he is out on a field trip at the county fair on family day? and, yeah, he escaped. call in, 1-877-tell-hln. (announcer) what do people notice about you? people notice my devotion to family. people notice my love for animals./ my smile. my passion for teaching. my cool car. people notice i'm a good friend and a good listener. people notice that i'm a good boss. people notice my love of nature. people notice i can fix anything.

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welcome back. whose bright idea was this? to take the criminally insane on a field trip to the county fair on family day. i guess they need their cotton candy and corn dogs like everyone else. that is how killer phillip hall escaped in spokane washington. he slit a woman's throat and doused her with gloen because he heard voices in his head. that is who you want to rub elbows with at the county fair? i'm almost speechless. that is what he did in '87. he escaped once in '91.

he escapes again from the county fair. we take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln. common sense is gone. joining me to talk about it, deputy roger knight. he is our hero. he has a history with the guy. stacy kaiser, psycho therapist with defense attorney anita kaye. roger, where did you track this guy down? >> the second time escaped was this thursday. he was given a ride by a friend of his. his friend had been at a court meeting in early september and paul told him he would be released in 120 days. thursday evening when mr. paul walked away from the fair

grounds he walked to his friend's house and said he had been released. the friend believing him, they took off and drove down to goldendale area. who was watching this guy? >> personnel from the eastern state hospital who brought him out to the fairgrounds. >> i don't mean to be critical, but doesn't sound like they were watching him too closely. doesn't sound like he was cuffed. it seems he was free to come and go as he pleased. >> he wasn't in the custody of law enforcement. >> you know the guy well. did you catch him in the first escape in '91? >> yes. he had been given a furlough that allowed him and a friend to walk around the grounds. during that period of time he left the grounds. they found him on saturday morning in a farmer's field and

there was two reserve officers and myself and several farmers who drove uses into this rural area. we didn't have a picture at the time of him but we contacted him. he identified himself as phillip hall. he was completely cooperative. we took him into custody. we chatted quite a bit. roger, you have to be infuriated. does this guy have any business being out at the county fair on family day? >> i certainly don't think so. >> anita kaye, phillip paul is a dangerous man this is a facebook comment. an insane man at the county fair. why don't we put sharks in our swimming pools. what is going on? >> washington has a policy with regard to mental institutions that people can get these, for

lack of a better word, field trips. the staff looks to determine if the person is violent and from what i've read they said paul has not been violent in several years. the problem with the policy is that's fine. in a mental institution he is medicated and not violent. look what he did in 1987. he is insane, he is strint, the crime he committed was horrific. he shouldn't be out ever. they put him in regular clothes. you can't identify him as being from a mental institution. 31 patients with 11 staff members. that is not enough. that is not enough to guard them. the policy is going to be re-evaluated from what i've read. this is not somebody who should ever be out. think of the victim's family finding out he is on a field trip to the county fair. >> think of the potential

victims. melody is with us in ohio. >> caller: hi, mike. how are you? earlier i was watching the news and they said this patient was noncompliant with his medication. when does it become an option they are made to take their medicine? thank you. >> anita, do you know anything about his noncompliance? >> i read that before he was noncompliant. at least where i practice i know that in a local county jail they can't force an inmate to take their medication. which is why in a mental institution or mental hospital they can force them to take their medication. that is part of being in that type of institution. this individual isn't complying with his own medication. the staff may not say violent but if you are not complying with your medication you are not a rule follower.

>> stacy kaiser, for a guy who is criminally insane, he devised quite the plot. he has a sleeping bag, getting a ride from his friend, concocted this story. what do you make of his mental state? >> criminally insane doesn't mean they are not smart. we see a lot of that on the stories on your show. these people are great planners. he is already a predator. we know that. we know he is a manipulator. he may have preplanned his escape. he is now not medicated so it is hard to know what he will be capable of. >> we shudder to think. we take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln. as we think about this. do you think the fair officials knew what was going on, 31 people from -- a dangerous guy was going be there? no. did the hospital tell authorities right away? no.

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welcome back to prime news on hln. continuing our coverage of this story. the outrage is built in. phillip hall, convicted 1987, slitting a woman's throat, dousing her with gasoline yet he gets to go on a field trip to the county fair recently on family day. ends up escaping. deputy roger knight was able to apprehend this guy and was able to apprehend him in 1991 as well. we are taking your calls. patty in ohio. your thoughts. >> caller: hey, mike. >> hey, patty. >> caller: i cannot believe someone would let a killer out on the streets especially when

it is family day at a fair. he should be locked up. >> it is that simple. deputy roger knight. you know his case. has he been going out on field trips all along or is this the first you are catching wind of this? >> eastern state is not under requirement to notify. he was out on numerous field trips. we believe he fathered a child. he has been released into the care of his parents. he has been out on numerous occasi occasions. >> how is that happening, roger? >> that is a question you have to ask eastern state hospital. we don't control that. >> no. this is my knee jerk reaction. did the mental facility, did authorities let you know, let law enforcement know right away? >> absolutely not. we were notified at 1:14 in the

afternoon. in our interview with his escort we were told he walked away at 11:45. >> an it should have been a half a minute, and you're calling, saying the guy got out of my sights. >> he should have never been out anyway. it's outrageous. i mean, this is somebody who is in a mental institution. >> that wasn't a beep from anita. we just lost her signal there. hope to get her back. let's get in a call. rene is with us in montana. rene, go ahead. >> caller: my question is that people that took him on the field trip, is that, if he killed again, is the person who took him to the field trip going to pay for it? >> well, whoever's responsible for this bright idea to let him out, i'm not sure about culpability here. there's plenty of blame to go

around. thankfully we've got good people like deputy roger knight, johnny on the spot to get this guy apprehended. but it took a while. roger, how long were you on the case? you got -- it took you, what, three days to track him? >> we literally started, when he escaped, we got pictures from eastern state hospital that were delivered to the fair grounds. we worked on this all day friday, all day saturday. into the late hours. we had a plan saturday night before we left that we were going to go to goldendale. we had coordinated with the different agencies down there and had our helicopter arrive -- it arrived down there. we got up early and drove down to the goldendale area. we met with the local law enforcement at goldendale high school and began our search once we were happy with the location. >> roger, great work, again. we applaud your efforts. hopefully we're sounding an alarm here this won't happen again. coming up, a terrorist plot foiled.

new insight right now on rapist phillip garrido. this is coming straight from jaycee dugard, who allegedly was kidnapped by garrido and forced to bear his two children. jaycee is now talking about how phillip garrido treated their two little girls. also this, what a shocker. that night little haleigh cummings vanished. could it be musty wasn't even home? now investigators are draining a pond nearby as well. as always, we love hearing from you. here's the number, 1-877-tell-hln. e-mail me, cnn.com/primenews. send us a text at hlntv, just

start your mem with the word prime. it's your chance to be heard. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com this is hour number two of "prime news." we have three huge developments right now in the kidnapping case of jaycee dugard. number one, jaycee is reportedly telling cops that rapist phillip garrido never laid a hand on her two daughters, allegedly fathered by garrido. many of us feared for those girls after learning about jaycee's horrific 18-year ordeal. the search of garrido's home in california, it really reaches a fever pitch. investigators started excavating now the two different sniffer dogs detected the scent of possible remains. number three, some mysterious black box garrido gave his friend for safekeeping just days before his arrested. as always, we take your calls, 1-877-tell-hln is the number. you guys have great questions on this topic. joining me to talk about, we

welcome back henry lee, reporter "san francisco chronicle." and stacy kazer, psychotherapist. one of our fears this monster garrido could have done to these two little girls, jaycee's daughters. but we're hearing that as far as any kind of sexual assault or advances, that's not the case here, right? >> right. now, jaycee has told investigators that mr. garrido did not touch their two daughters. now, whether or not that is true will be borne out perhaps later on. keep in mind perhaps there's some element of protection that jaycee wants to protect her two children from any scrutiny of any untoward behavior. but at this point that's what jaycee is telling the police investigators. >> let's bring in stacy to pick up on henry's point, stacy. we all hope that's the case. we hope these young girls have been spared that. stacy, what do you make of what we're hearing about what jaycee is telling law enforcement. >> i think the likelihood she would be protecting her daughters from further trauma of

telling the story that they had been touched by him. i also think there's a really good possibility she may not know. he was a very sneaky man. and maybe it's something she isn't aware of. >> when we talk, and let me ask you a couple, first, real quick. when will she speak in full to investigators? i would think it's too soon. but help us out here, stacy. >> she's got good family support, so she may be willing to speak mostly in full. but this is something she's still got to be processing. she spent most of her life with that man under those unusual and traumatic conditions. it's probably going to take her some time to warm up. >> with that said, will it be difficult for her to condemn him in any kind of testimony she gives? >> yeah, i think there's a very good chance it will be difficult for her to condemn him. he took care of her in an odd way. i mean, she had shelter, she had food, she raised kids there. and so from her perspective, it's hard to know if she would buy into some of this sort of

nurturing qualities, even though the rest of us think he's a monster. >> exactly. you look at it, but what is that that kicks in, stacy, the survival mode that for some reason you develop an affinity for your captor? >> absolutely. when people have been through traumatic experiences, they develop an affinity for their captor, and develop amazing denial skills. she may not be letting herself absorb how bad it was. >> let's talk about this recovery, how is jaycee and the girls doing. henry, how is that going? where are they? they're obviously still secluded, is that right? >> that's right. we don't know exactly how she is doing. we have heard from the aunt they're doing relatively well. jaycee knows her family, recognizes her family. and there is a big dichotomy here. initially when she was grabbed from south lake tahoe at the age of 11, they used a stun gun on her, forced her down to the ground of the car, and then kept her in a backyard for three

years, let alone 18 years. you take that, fast forward 18 years, there might be an affinity. big dichotomy where you go from a kidnap victim to perhaps allegedly unfortunately the wife, or the mother of the two children. >> it is unthinkable, the hell that young jaycee went through. and for 18 years. stacy, with that said, from what you're hearing, from what her aunt is saying, i mean, it's better than we could have hoped at least so far, right? >> i hope that that's all correct. there is something to be said for the fact that she's now in safe, loving and nurturing hands and that nobody's forcing her to get out of seclusion. >> what about that? is there a timetable when she will -- she or the girls, the younger daughters, will be able to come out, will feel comfortable, strong enough to come out in public? >> i think it's going to be important for them to come out when they feel ready, not because we want to hear their story. that could take weeks, that could take months, that could even take a year. >> it sure seems like it.

henry, what's the latest on the search at phillip garrido's home, the adjacent property? we know bones have been found there. what's the latest? >> right, there have been a lot of hits by both the ground search. numerous hits from dogs that are able to detect decades-old, hundreds of years old remains. they're taking a look. we don't know if they're human bones or animal bones and whether or not they might be just walnut groves on the so-called anomalies in the property. >> we'll pick up the kfrlgs there. more on the search. and also this black box that phillip garrido gave to a friend, just 48 hours before he was arrested. it's quite a sight to see it. his mind-set with it. it's insane, let's just put it that way. we'll take your calls.creech g] [dejectedly] oh. [screeching] [barks] (man) if you think about it,

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welcome back to "prime news" on hln. continuing our conversation. new developments, three big developments concerning the jaycee dugard case. jaycee herself telling law enforcement that phillip garrido did not lay a hand on her two young daughters, fathered allegedly by phillip garrido. we know that. before the break we were talking about development number two. the search continuing at the property. so we know this. everybody on the same page. there was a small bone fragment found a couple weeks ago, and it was ruled likely human. testing continues on that. and then more bones found last week. let's bring in mike brooks, hln law enforcement analyst. mike, what's going on now as far as the testing, but also what's going on at that site? i know we talked about ground

penetrating radar. what is that going to find? >> the two dogs have hit on two -- two separate dogs hit onú two areas. they will grid this area off. it almost looks like a lawn mower, they will run this back and forth over this dprided area and handle it almost like an archaeological dig. they'll dig down one laer and sift it. you have to actually use sifters to make sure they don't miss anything. even some of these bone fragments. if they see the anomaly, they can look at it and see bone, they can see anything else that could be just underneath the layers, they'll take it like an archaeological dig, go layer by layer, block by block, grid by grid, sift the area and then move on to something else. it's a big yard. so this could take some time. they said they were going to be there for a number of days. >> henry, give us the latest on that, as far as getting any answers whether or not these bones are human, animal, and what time frame we're talking about, when they might have been placed there. >> they're going to take a look and see if they're simply animal

bones. a pet or two has been buried in the yard by garridos or the neighbors. whether the an nomlys, the things that are making the graph move could very well be old trees or very well could be rightly or wrongly a body. they're going to take a look and see and date it. they're going to look at how old it is before they make any determination. for now, mike, very critical, the police told us today no evidence of any kind was found inside the garrido property itself. >> e-mail coming to us from jonah in washington. here it is. is there a way jaycee can sue phillip garrido for his assets, house, et cetera, because of what he did to her all the years he stole from her, et cetera? not sure what phillip garrido has. but whatever he has, any property he owns, you better believe it should go to jaycee. let's bring in stacy kaiser, our psychotherapist. i know you're not an attorney, but if you had clients that have looked to get back something and assets could be at least a part of it? >> absolutely, i have had

clients can do it. anybody with sue anything for anyone. but i don't think they should recommend it, because to go through a trial like that would be very traumatizing. she would have to relive the entire experience. she would be questioned by his attorneys. it could be a really traumatic experience. >> that's a good point. hopefully you wouldn't even need to sue. the authorities would just give her the property, let whatever money you could get from selling that property for the education of the two young girls. that's just me. that may not even be possible. henry, we talked about the search. we've talked about jaycee saying that phillip garrido never laid a hand on the girls. now we've got this black box that phillip garrido gave to a friend. and it's a communication device, right, henry? >> right. but for all intents and purposes it looks like the only person who could seemingly communicate or hear things is mr. phillip garrido himself. he said, put these headphones on, tell me what you hear, i can hear god. every other person said they could not hear god at all.

it looks like either this person's delusional or this is evidence of some kind of mental illness, perhaps schizophrenia, in which you do hear voices. >> you see the audio jacks there. i guess you put on the headphones and garrido is going to communicate with you somehow. stacy, diagnose here? >> there's no doubt he's delusional. he may be suffering from schizophrenia. i think what's interesting is this is a man who's filled with bravado. he thinks what he says is fabulous. i'm sure that he thinks that if someone else were to have that box, that they could really hear something. >> yeah. it all makes sense, doesn't it, stacy, that he's a manipulator, devious, believes what he says, as crazy as it might be, right? >> that is the craziest thing about the crazy people, they even believe themselves. i think he was one of those. >> got to leave it there. we appreciate it. new shocking insights into the night that little haleigh cummings vanished. stepmom, misty, her own brother is telling cops misty wasn't even home.

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with very cool styling and so affordable. at 40% off, just $299. from jennifer. welcome back to "prime news" on hln. an insane killer escaped at the spokane county fair in washington. help me understand this, why would anyone take the criminally insane on a field trip to the fair on family day. fortunately this guy was recaptured without anyone getting hurt. but he was on the run for four days. how is he going on a field trip on family day? unbelievable. where's the common sense? i want to hear from you, 1-877-tell-hln is the number. unreal. we want to hear from you as well on this one. this just coming in. shocking revelations that night that little haleigh cummings vanished. you're not going to believe what stepmom misty's brother told the cops. saying misty wasn't even home. never answered the door. cops in florida saying misty had

been inconsistent. we know that since day one. could this be why? just hours ago, investigators drained a pond nearby as well. so a lot to get you updated on. joining us, we welcome back mike brooks. also with us, t.j. hart, program and news director wsky radio 97.3 fm in gainesville, florida. t.j., let's hit on what tommy croslin is saying, misty's brother. is he flat out saying misty wasn't there that night? >> he stopped just short within a breath of saying that. he was said i was called by ron, ron was at work. he had not been able to reach misty by telephone. he called tommy to go down and check. they only live just a few yards from each other. he goes down to the trailer where haleigh, junior and misty were supposed to be. he sees no lights on. he sees no television. which is kind of odd for 1:00 at night. this is in the 10:00 hour. no sound of a radio, nothing.

dead quiet. knocked on the door, banged on the door. no answer. reluctantly he left. we have no word yet from law enforcement whether or not he called ron to tell him that news, or not. but that's what we're getting from conversations held with croslin on stealing a gun charge at about $50,000 bond at the putnam county sheriff's office at the jail. >> okay. what is he saying, what do we know? were the kids there and she wasn't? did she take everybody out of there? what can we deduce from there? >> he could not see anyone, not hear anyone, not a light on in the house. which is odd, because they usually have a tv or movie playing in the home. absolutely silent, dead silent. he stopped short of saying not home. but the odd thing was that family members had been told this prior to this weekend of the draining of the pond. they all knew this. and it was -- the law enforcement found this kind of

odd since the favorite sport in putnam county, how many croslins can throw each other under the bus, none of the croslins talked about this. misty had been in court with junior on the order of protection just a week and a half ago. he had been questioned by law enforcement up in massachusetts. mom and dad are now living up in tennessee on a moment's notice. they're living with misty's grandmother. by the way, the first croslin to be thrown under the bus. >> cousin joe, remember that name from a blast from the past. any comment from misty, misty's attorney? >> misty's been questioned. we've gotten confirmation on that. we don't know what the questions were at this point. but major gary boland and the captain both tell me it was nothing of value once again. they were very upset with that. >> let's bring in mike brooks. mike, you know, do we know this for sure, know that she wasn't there? bau it makes sense, she's been

inconsistent with her story. certainly you would figure that if she wasn't there. >> she's been inconsistent with her stories. she's failed two law enforcement polygraphs. one private polygraph by tim miller's ek quu search group. you know, all along, you know, he was calling ronald when he came back and the initial police report was very angry with her, referring to her as my dumb b-word girlfriend. and so all along, what's going on here. but there's one way to find out whether tommy is telling the truth or not. go back and law enforcement probably already knows that, check ronald's phone records to see if he did contact tommy. and then also, check ronald's phone to see if he tried to contact misty when she did not answer. all of that will be in the cell phone records. law enforcement probably has already checked that out, mike. >> yeah, they have. they have checked ron's cell phone records for sure, definitely. >> any results, though, t.j.? >> they're not telling us about that phone call in particular. but they said that he made that

call. and that tommy received that call. so i'm going to go with reporting only what law enforcement has said today. >> tonya's with us in new jersey. tonya, your comment or question here? >> caller: how are you doing? is misty going to be charged with anything, like she wasn't there, will she be charged with like child welfare, if she wasn't there? >> that's a good point. what happens next. mike, i'll go to you on this one. it's too early for charges. but we're clearly seeing, i guess, it just all fits her inconsistencies here. if she wasn't there. >> right. you know, what you need to file charges, something called probable cause. do they have enough probable cause yet? i don't even think they have reasonable suspicion yet, mike. there's been so many inconsistencies. if tommy's lawyer said, we'll go ahead and do it, a polygraph. >> much more on this coming up. x

welcome back. we're excited about the latest addition to our lineup here on hln. get ready to welcome joy behar. check out her new show, "the joy behar show." debuts tuesday, september 29th, right here on hln. this story. we really want to hear from you on this one. how can anyone be so heartless to harass a guy who had just had a heart attack. relatives call him a family guy, proud man, hard worker. always tried to pay his bills on time. you can understand how upset he would be when a massive heart attack took him off the job. got a little behind in some payments.

specifically fell behind in the mortgage. debt collectors hounded him. dozens of calls daily. the poor guy was hurting in every sense of the word. his wife says all that harassment is what killed him. take a listen here. this is just a sample of this steady diet of abuse his wife says stanley had to put up with. >> you vice president made your payment on your mortgage. quit playing these games. >> the last conversation you had, you told someone that you were on a life flight because you had a heart attack. you need to get in contact with our office and bring your account current immediately. your daughter never came in to make the payment. >> every time mr. mccloud, you set up an arrangement, you never keep that arrangement. never once have you set up an arrangement that you kept. if you can't go ahead and deal with this matter, either have your wife or someone else who can do it for you. but yet again, you failed to do anything that you say that you were going to do.

which makes me question your judgment. >> wednesday, august 24th, 8:00 a.m. >> you have until is clock noon today. you need to make other living arpgments. we will forward your account to our attorney if we do not have a resolve on this account today. >> who trains these people? lucifer? check your soum at the door. now his widow is suing the debt collectors. if you had harassment, call in, 1-877-tell-hln. let's bring in billy howard, diane mccloud's attorney. also with us, stacy kaiser, psychotherapist. anita kay is with us as well, defense attorney, former prosecutor. let's start on a human level. as you talk to stanley's wife, what did stanley go through as call after call kept coming in to harass this poor man? >> well, it sounded like tony soprano was calling him.

it was devastating to him. it would be different if he was healthy. but he was somebody that was being terrorized in his own home, when he was on disability because of his heart. and they knew it. and they tried to use that against him. >> let me read the statement. this is from the collection company. green tree's policy, a brief statement, is not to comment on pending litigation. let's bring in stacy kaiser. stacy, so stanley has a massive heart attack, takes him off the job. now he's being harassed like this. it's hurting him in every sense of the word, his pride. what goes on? what kind of hurt builds up as these stressful calls continue to come in? >> first of all, you have the whole factor of the male ego going on, where he's lost his job, he's not supporting his family and he's not well. then you add to it this harassment that he's not able to put a stop to. a person is not only a lot of stress and pressure, but

somebody who probably feels helpless and hopeless. >> all right. let's talk about the lawsuit here. billy, it sounds like from what we're hearing, you've got a good case. what's your first argument in court? how are you going to win this thing? >> well, i think it's very clear that there has been harassment to mr. mcleod and his family. the liability of the violations of the law are easily proven. the point that needs to be made to a jury is, companies cannot get away with this. and companies need to be punished when they do things like this. and juries in our country, for the most part, are very smart, and we're confident that they're going to be able to see exactly what happened to mr. mcleod, and be able to render a fair verdict that will include compensation for the damage that they caused. >> yeah. it sounds like -- i want to read

some points from the fair debt collection practices act. it just fits to a t what we heard on those few phone calls. number one, a debt collector may not engage in any conduct the natural consequence of which is to harass, oppress, or abuse any person in connection with the collection of a debt. we definitely heard harassment there. violations that are very clear. the use of obscene or profane language, or language the natural consequence of which is to abuse the hearer or reader. stanley mcleod was abused by those phone calls. causing a telephone to ring or engaging any person in telephone conversation repeatedly or continuously with intent to ann annoy, abuse or harass any person at the called number. billy, it sounds like game, set and match to me on the harassment front. but on the wrongful death part of this, how are you going to prove that? >> well, juries know, just like we do, that stress causes a lot

of problems in your life. now, again, if this happened to the quarterback of the buccaneers, then the damage would not be the same. this happened to somebody who has horrible heart problems, then a doctor comes in, gives medical testimony, explains to a jury exactly what happened and what the effects are. and the jury comes back with a verdict. >> let's get an objective attorney in on this, anita kay. anita, do you agree with what i'm saying here? sounds like they've got him on harassment. wrongful death, is that going to be the tougher one? >> definitely, that is going to be the harder burden to prove. the harassment, willful harassment, repeated phone calls, the tone of the calls and what was said, there's no doubt. this is what bill collectors do, they harass because they want to bully you into paying it. the wrongful death is going to be harder. we haven't seen cases like this. whenever you have a case of first impression that you haven't seen before, it's always

difficult. i think the case can be made. mr. mcleod already had a previous heart condition. like the other attorney said, the quarterback of a football team, he's in better health, so he may not have the consequences. you take the plaintiff, you take this person the way you find them. >> let's be clear, they knew, they made reference to his heart attack. they knew he needed to be life flighted, and the calls come after that. can we get a call in, adrian, real quick? sandy, go ahead. >> reporter: yes, mike. i totally agree. they're very rude. and they don't listen to what you say. and they call, like you said, 10, 12 times a day. and they don't take no for an answer. and they just keep badgering you. and just like you had up on your screen, well, if you would pay your bills on time, we wouldn't have to call. >> there's one thing to call, one thing to harass a poor guy

like stanley mcleod. have you been harassed like this? the number, 1-877-tell-hln. we want to hear from you.

welcome back to "prime news" on hln. we're talking about just a terrible tragedy. gentleman by the name of stanley mcleod, hard working man, there he is, family man, paid his bills on time. he had a massive heart attack and gets behind on his mortgage. the debt collectors harass this man. 10, 12 phone calls per day. his wife is now suing saying they contributed to his death. the stress of these phone calls. we're taking your calls on this. pam's with us in georgia. hey, pam, go ahead, your thoughts here. >> caller: hey, mike, how are you? >> hey, pam, well. >> caller: you hit the nail on the head when you said these people have no souls. they have no souls. i have been in this situation

before. they call you at 7:00 in the morning. you hang up. they call right back again. they even use restricted numbers. they're underpaid people who have nothing better to do than harass people. >> it's tough out there. >> caller: they're the most rudest people. they start threatening you with lawyers. >> pam, thanks for the call. i want to listen to one other call that stanley mcleod and his wife, diane, received. this is from that debt collection company. keep in mind, stanley mcleod had a massive heart attack and had to be life flighted, needed a helicopter to help save his life. listen to this call. >> you need to make the payments on your mortgage and quit playing these games. have that helicopter pick you up and bring it to the office. how could someone say that to a man who had a massive heart atta attack. use the helicopter to come and make a payment. billy howard, that is just appalling to hear, infuriating.

how can you use that in a court of law to win your case? >> i'm going to do just what you just did. and i'm going to play that to a jury. unfortunately, in today's times, it's like the imperfect storm. you have people who want to pay their bills, but just can't because of medical reasons, or other things out of their control. and then you have these debt collection companies that are paid solely upon how much they collect. and they're bonused about how much money they bring in. that's why we're having such a problem in today's society. and people need to know their rights, and stick up for them. people are tired of being bullied. >> there was a facebook comment from robin. in this day and age these companies need to change their strategies. hopefully stories like this will get them to think, and be a little more human. anita, to billy howard's point. what are our rights? yes, we want to pay. we get a little behind, we want

to pay. nobody deserves to be harassed like stanley mcleod was. >> independent debt collections, if it's not a bank trying to collect a debt from your own account, but these independent debt collectors, you can write to them and say, you have to stop calling me. and they have to stop. they also have to only call between 8:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m. a lot of people that i've heard from, they're calling at 10:00 at night, or calling at 7:00 a.m., just like the caller said. you can logon to websites and each state is different. but they're similar. similar protections. logon, go online and find out what your rights are in your state. because the thing is, that's what they prey upon. they prey on the fact that you're going to be scared and you're going to be intimidated because they're on the phone and they can say whatever they want. it's a lot harder to say it face to face. they think they can bully you. know your rights and say, hey, you can't do this. >> great point there. real good source from my colleague here at hln, clark howard.

clark howard.com has information for you there to go along with anita's points, to know your rights, how you can fight back and not be harassed like the mcleods. billy howard, thanks again. we appreciate it. wish you the best in this case. fight the good fight for him. stacy, anita, thank you as well. an insane killer, a man who in 1987 slit a poor woman's throat and doused her with gasoline. well, guess what, you could have rubbed elbows with this guy at the county fair. oh, yeah, he was out on a field trip. imagine that. walking around having cotton candy and corn dogs with that guy. @% would you like to go for a ride on that bike ?

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welcome back to "prime news" on hln. the story of the flooding in georgia, it's turning tragic. that's an elementary school that's under water in the state 6 georgia. this rain has been unrelenting.

as we have mentioned, it has turned tragic. officials confirmed to cnn at least five people are dead. at least four people missing from one county. that's one picture. look at this house here. the house you can see, it is on fire. you see what looks like a car in the middle -- we had a shot of it. that was a fire truck submerged by water. that's what's going on here. this here is powder springs, west of atlanta. there's the fire truck submerged. as again, it is getting dire here. guys, we have more footage here? this stuff coming in to us here. a car submerged in water. i'll tell you from my own personal account, i live up northwest of atlanta, and my backyard was like a river. it was just unbelievable. obviously for these people, it's a lot worse. for some, it has turned tragic. we'll continue to follow this story for you. just getting word in that state of emergency has been declared now in 15 georgia counties, and the rain from last that we heard was not due to let up until the

earliest on thursday. folks really need to be careful and stay home if at all possible. a lot of schools are closed now. all right. you've got to wonder whose bright idea was this. to take the criminally insane on a field trip to the county fair. on family day. that's how killer phillip paul escaped in spokane, washington. this is a guy who says he slit a woman's throat, doused her with gasoline. that's back in '87. this is because he heard voices in his head that told him to do it. what's he doing on family day at the fair? the guy's already escaped back once in '91. this time he was on the run for days until he was recaptured. common sense gone in this story. i want to bring in my colleague, jane velez-mitchell, host of "issues" coming to you at the top of the hour. and mike brooks, law enforcement analyst. jane, how could a decision like this be made? it was 31 patients, only 11 staffers watching him. >> not only that, but he was packed for a trip. he had a guitar with him.

so he was obviously not just going to the fair. i don't think he was performing at the fair. so when you see that he's packed for a long trip, that's got to tell you something. this isinsane. even though he's the one who is insane. this is actually insane behavior on the part of our system. it has happen the before. let's just recap and review. when you're found not guilty by reason of insanity, it doesn't mean you didn't do it it means you did it but you're so crazy, you don't know what you did is wrong. you're more dangerous than the average criminal. >> he had sleeping bag, guitar. had called his friend to basically set up, you know, i need a ride. he had it all laid out. just because you're criminally insane, doesn't mean you're stupid. they can come up with quite the plans here. obviously, this guy did. >> mike, he had all his personal

belongings with him. the sa staff, they're getting on the bus to go to the fair. you got your guitar, your backpack. come on, that's ridiculous. the people at the hospital are the ones responsible. sometimes i think that people looking after these people are crazier than the people are. >> well put. jane, you with us? all right, jane's back with us. >> i was hearing voices. >> well timed, jane. the poor folks at the fair had no idea this guy was coming. then when they goes missing, it takes the mental hospital, the folks at the hospital, an hour and a half to call the cops. so they give the guy 90-minute head start. it's unconscionable on so many levels. >> you remember the case of john hinckley, accused of trying to n kill reagan. >> uh-oh, jane, we got to run. we'll be watching. need to weigh packages

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we begin with breaking news tonight. a hideous crime, nothing short of diabolical. police find a mom and her five children, count them, five, all with their throats slit in their florida home. he is said to have fled the country after he allegedly massacred his entire family. here is a precious children in a photo from the website highfive.com. they ranged in age from the baby, just 11 months old, to 9 years of age. police say they have never,

never, ever seen such brutality at a crime scene. >> i can tell you that in no uncertain terms, this is the most horrific and violent event this community has ever experienced. every homicide is tragic. however, this is the worst of the worst. >> just hours ago, a reporter from the associated press saw damas pictured here in facebook, there he is, with a drink in his hand, captured by haitian authorities. get this, he is still being called a, quote, person of interest, and not a suspect. seriously, people? this is a guy who fled the country to haiti and has a long history of domestic violence against his family. this past january, he was arrested on charges of battering his wife, forcing her to drop their youngest child. he pleaded no contest. in a sick twist, we have just learned that three, count them,

three, days before the family was found bludgeoned to death, a child welfare caseworker visited the home and found nothing amiss. meantime, according to a blog called islandcrisis.net, damas reportedly posted a chilling comment on his facebook page. quote, this is so weird -- "good people do not go to heaven, only sinners do. thank god i am going to heaven." what? end quote. we called police about this undated post. they had no comment. this is a fast breaking story. and tonight's big issue, the war on families. is it just me, people, or are these massacres that wipe out entire families becoming more and more frequent? straight out to my amazing expert panel. janney weintraub, criminal defense attorney. brenda wade, criminal psychologist. boy, do we need you.

tom bres ken, president of cmt protective and investigative group. and ryan mill, staff writer for the "naples daily news." ryan, you've been on top of this story. what is the very latest on this horrific, mind-bogglingly, grotesque case? >> as you said, they do have mr. damas in custody down in haiti. we've been told by the county sheriff's office they intend to have someone ready to go down there to interview him as soon as tomorrow morning. >> you know, my question is, why, why, why, ryan, are they still calling him a person of interest? i don't like that term anyway. but why are they calling this guy a person of interest? he has a long history of domestic abuse. >> well, you know, i'm not going to speculate as to what their -- what the collier county sheriff's office is doing inside. but my guess is they're going to be taking this as slowly and carefully as possible, make sure they do everything by the book, so they get things done

correctly. >> yeah, i don't get it. i really don't. janie weintraub, help me out. >> with pleasure. if the police had done their jobs, we might not be in this position, jane. here's the bottom line. in florida, we are thankful to have a statue that you would want, that people who are arrested for domestic violence are to be held without a bond, without a bond, until they are brought before a judge, wherein the state attorney is ordered to produce to the judge a prior background report with every domestic violence incident reported that is known to the state attorney's office. what does that mean? it means the state attorney dropped the ball. means the judge dropped the ball. and we have our good old caseworker from the department of children and family services. >> was there three days before. three days before, a child welfare official visited the home, tom russcan. found nothing amiss.

the visit was unannounced. dinner was in the oven. the kids appeared in good health. >> i don't think the problem was with the mother. i think the problem was the mother and the father. and obviously something broke down in the court system. we have three or four cases since 2005 basically saying to the courts, hey, look, they have a problem. or she somehow has a problem in not kicking him out, in not keeping him out, in not keeping him away from her five children. >> wait a second, let's talk about the history of domestic violence. okay. and then we can analyze this. police say there's been a handful of domestic disturbance calls involving this couple to police since way back in 2000. >> in january of this year, he was arrested for a simple battery or misdemeanor battery against the female that we found deceased in the apartment. he pled no contest to it in june. >> did he get any jail time? >> i do not believe so, other

than the initial arrest. >> let's take a closer look at this record. 2005, the mom brought a domestic violence case against the man. she got injunctions. they were dismissed two weeks later. then, he filed a case against her. that motion dismissed two weeks later. november 2006, he filed another injunction. this time, it was denied. this past january, state of florida charged the now husband -- because he used to be the boyfriend -- with misdemeanor battery. he pleaded no contest. got 12 months probation. 200 hours of community service. a $600 fine. he was ordered to attend a batterer's intervention program. get that batterer's intervention program didn't work, brenda wade. >> you know, it's very tough when you're looking at long-term battering. jane, it doesn't matter what walk of life you come from. domestic violence touches all of us. it's happened to the very wealthy, the very poor, whether you're black, white, hispanic,

asian, it doesn't matter. the statistics are in. i spent years working in the field of domestic violence. and i can tell you, it's no respecter of persons. the thing that troubles me is that this is a classic case. we've seen this so many times. the wife tries to protect herself. she gets an injunction. she may get a restraining order. and then she gets frightened. now, let me tell you the facts about what allows a person to leave a batter. >> let me jump in right here. brenda, i got to jump in here. i got to do a big reality check. these domestic violence issues started in 2000. her oldest child was 9 years old. which means she had at least four children, possibly five children, after the domestic violence began. to me, that in itself is a crime, brenda. >> jane, i will tell you -- >> hold on -- >> -- as many cases as i have

responded to, as a cop, as a detective, you find a lot of times that the person does not want to leave. once the cops come and say, listen, we have to arrest the spouse for domestic abuse, at that point in time, they'll jump on the cops. >> well, let me take issue because it's not that she doesn't -- >> -- let brenda talk. brenda, go head. >> yeah. it's not that she doesn't want to leave. the issue is -- we actually have done studies on what it is that allows a woman to leave. she has to have some place to go. >> guess what, brenda? i love your analysis, but this woman sent a letter to the judge this year, begging the judge to give her husband a second chance. >> that is classic, jane. >> -- she filed a motion to dismiss an injunction against the same person who was then her boyfriend for beating her. what did she say to the judge? i would like to give him a second chance. >> that's typical. >> -- dismiss the case. >> he didn't have to do that, jane. and the state attorney's office

could have compelled her testimony and they don't need the victim's consent or appro l approval. it's the one crime the state attorney's office needs to go forward on, regardless of what the victims want to do in this case. because we will see repetedly these murder cases happen. >> brenda -- >> jane, i'll go one step further. when the cops show up, they're man dated by law in most stated in this country to make an arrest. if they notice any domestic violence or any kind of signs that domestic violence complaint is substantiated. >> hello, i'm going to hit myself on the head with this thing. brenda wade. there is a disconnect ahere. there's a domestic violence issue that began a decade ago. and there were five children conceived during this entire saga, this drama -- >> jane, the longer -- >> yes. >> -- the longer a person live floss domestic violence, the more her self-esteem, her sense that she can live a life without being beaten, without being abused. because part of this, you know,

is not physical. part of the abuse is mental and emotional. where constantly she's being told she's worthless. she's being brainwashed every day. we have a syndrome. >> you don't think she could just at least -- >> -- battered wife syndrome. >> -- not get pregnant? >> jane, i wish i could say that a woman who's in this situation is thinking with a brain that's not impacted. it's not the case. if we could have gotten her into a shelter, given her a safe place for her and her kids. if the police had followed through, the courts had followed through. but it looks as if everybody dropped the ball here. >> well, the police did -- >> -- we know that battered women have a hard time leaving. >> they have to be given an option -- >> hold on. tom. >> if the police were called, they made an arrest. >> they were checking in on her on a weekly basis. they said that the father -- the family, they were doing well over the summer. >> yeah, i'm shurl they checked on her. just like garrido, they checked on him. where were they to give this

woman options? to take her to a shield shelter like dr. wade was talking about? forget walking in and seeing nobody's dead. okay, the kids are fine? i'd like to seat report from this child welfare worker. >> i'm starting to think these anger management classes and batterer intervention classes could not work. >> sometimes they do. it's not always the case that they fail, jane. but this is such a difficult complicated issue. you have to remember, somebody in a chronic battering situation is number one, depressed, has no self-esteem, and usually if they stay it's because she has no options to get out. >> i understand. i want to make it very clear. i don't want to blame this mom. she is a victim. i just wish that somebody could have saved five innocent beautiful children. >> exactly. >> and that's why it's so nauseating, so upsetting. five beautiful, innocent

children are dead. and there was a decade of abuse to stop it. and it didn't get stopped. all right. more on this unthinkable massacre in a moment. we're also taking your calls. 1-877-jvm-says. what do you think? 1-877-586-5977. what was he doing this in the first place? first an entire family, five kids, brutally murdered inside their florida home, their throats slit. the youngest victim, 11 months old. >> i can tell you that in no uncertain terms, this is the most horrific. @p@p@p@p@p@p@ú@ú@p hi, may i help you? yes, i hear progressive has lots of discounts on car insurance. can i get in on that? are you a safe driver? yes. discount! do you own a home? yes. discount! are you going to buy online? yes! discount! isn't getting discounts great? yes!

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she was just here the past tuesday night for curriculum night with her children. she went in to all three of the boy's classrooms. >> i think i'm still in shock. what a horrible tragedy. and to think that lives are gone at such an early age. a real tragedy. i anticipate many questions from children. i anticipate worry, sadness.

>> such horror. i am asking the question i have become so sick of asking. what on earth do we tell the young schoolchildren, class mates, of these victims, in the wake of violence like this? five kids and their mom slaughtered, perhaps by their own father. we could see the mother was trying to be a good mother. you heard the teacher right there saying she would do everything she could as a mom. but when you forgive somebody who beats you and beats your children, you are entering a danger zone you may not ever escape. phone lines lighting up. tana in west virginia. your question or thought, ma'am? >> caller: yes, hi, jane. >> hi. >> caller: what i'd like to know is how did this man get out of the country so fast and why is he not back in the u.s. under custody at this time? >> tom ruskin, you want to take it? there he is with a drink in his hand at a beach. >> basically, the way he got out of the country is he bought a

ticket like anyone else. he probably wasn't wanted at that point in time. i don't even know if they had found the bodies by the time he had left the country. the answer to your question is in 1904, the u.s. signed a treaty with haiti. he's being held under that treaty as a person, as jane doesn't like to say, of interest, and probably will be brought back by extradition very shortly. >> ryan, you want to jump in a little bit? >> yeah, he -- he left for miami. it's about a two-hour drive from naples to miami. he left for miami and departed around 7:00 in the morning on friday. the bodies weren't discovered until sometime saturday i think evening. or -- it was in the evening. >> tonight's big issue. one of many. is there a war on families being waged by the men who are supposed to be protecting and defending their wives and children? let's recap and review. 32-year-old christopher coleman charged with first degree murder in the strangulation death of his wife and two sons. his alleged motive, cops say he was having an affair, made up threats related to his job, then they say he carried out the

monstrous murdered. then there's 22-year-old guy hines. this is a recent case we've been covering here on "issues." prosecutor says he massacred his father, uncle, aunt and four cousins. police say he beat them to death. brenda wade, what is going on with this level of family violence in america? are we just covering it more? or is there something in the water out there that is making people more murderously rageful against their own families? >> one of the things we do see is that during times of economic distress, people who are living on the edge go over the edge. this man had already been a violent person, a violent husband and father, for many years. and he went over the edge. in some of the other cases that we've been covering, i think we see somebody who already had a problem and then they crack. my concern is that when we know somebody has a problem, we need to act. we need to act definitively to protect the women, the innocent

children that are in the path or the other family members. >> brenda, i agree with you entirely. and the fact is, there were so many red flags here. red flags everywhere. in this relationship. >> plenty of opportunity. yes. >> that ended in the brutal slaying of this young mom and her five children. we discussed already the history of domestic violence. but then the mother -- brother said she wanted to divorce her husband. he said they'd always argued. you never knew what he was going to do next, was quote. the kids used to say, quote, uncle, uncle, daddy hit mommy, end quote. >> right, right. >> i mean, a frebiend of the mos warned her, hey this abuse could end in death. jayne weintraub. i understand, we have something we're going to throw up in a second. which shows how women are intimidated and dominated and they're controlled by abusive men in their lives. but nevertheless, why have these

kids, one after the other, when you're being abused like this? >> because she was a victim. because she couldn't see out of her own hole. like dr. wald was saying. you know, the problem here, i think it's compounded by the police coming in and leaving or child welfare worker coming in and saying, oh, everything's okay, okay, and not recognizing to reach out, to give her alternatives and take her to women's shelter, put her in your car and say, hey, what about the teachers, what about the principal? this little boy was telling people, telling his uncle, daddy is hitting mommy. he's telling other people too. what's up with our communities? >> well, you know, tom ruskin, we only have ten seconds. i think we do interventions for addicts. we need to do intervention, family intervention, when a situation becomes abusive. >> you're absolutely right. that's where the system is failing. it's not failing when the police are making an arrest. it's failing thereafter. they have it right on the nose. >> we have to leave it right there.

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in tonight's "spotlight," a convicted killer escapes during a trip to the fair. you heard that right. a killer treated to a field trip. phillip paul was captured yesterday four days after he sauntered away from a county fair in washington state. if that sounds crazy to you, it gets crazier. it wasn't the first time law enforcement let this criminally cuckoo insane man escape at a fair. what kind of judicial system are we running here, people? no doubt, the authorities have some explaining to do. >> i think the questions that are being raised are absolutely appropriate and the governor and i this morning when we spoke,

some of the most serious questions i have about this are the policies and the procedures that led to the outing, the choice of the outing. >> you think? oh, boy. police say when they found paul, he was carrying a backpack, guitar case and rust yy cycle. all joking aside, he killed a woman. he was found not guilty by reason of insanity and sent to a mental hospital. in '91, he escaped during an another outing. he assault add deputy and knocked him unconscious. why weren't his field trip privileges revoked back then? criminal defense attorney jaynie weintraub, not guilty by reason of insanity doesn't mean you didn't do it, it means you're so cuckoo for cocoa puffs whacked out, you don't know your crime is wrong, right? >> that's correct, jane. you don't know right from wrong at the time you commit the act. in this particular case, there's

nothing wrong with the verdict. what's wrong here is with the institution. he was deemed to be dangerous. that's why after a not guilty by reason of insanity he was housed in a mental institution and committed because he is dangerous. why did the institution permit him to go on this crazy field trip? >> and packed a guitar with him. did they really think he was performing at the fair perhaps? i mean, he left with a guitar. why would you take a guitar if you were coming right back to the institution? let me continue on with this madness. when paul left for the fair, he had a backpack that was not searched and that wasn't the only problem. >> mr. paul was noncompliant in taking his medications. my question is, if somebody was noncompliant in taking their medications, what made anybody believe that he would be compliant on a field trip to the spokane county fair on family day? this is a situation that, in my opinion, should not have

happened. >> how can he even say that with a straight face? >> this is a guy who cut a woman's throat and doused her with gasoline because he heard voices. >> field trip? i don't even understand where this cop can say with a straight face that he shouldn't even be given the privilege of a field trip. he is deemed dangerous until further proceedings in a court. i haven't seen any further proceedings in a court. therefore, he should not have been at all out of that mental institution. >> the only field trip he should be getting is from one cell to another, as far as i'm concerned. >> well, he certainly isn't getting help and he certainly isn't getting better. that's for sure. and once again, the system failed. >> yeah, it's been going on. remember john hinckley who attempted to assassinate president reagan and he was found not guilty by reason of insanity, he was obsessed with jodie foster? he ended up getting field trip, over and over again. he would sneak back jody foster material. it's beyond comprehension. thank you, thank you, jayne.

disgusting allegations from a former aide of john edwards claiming edwards had promised to marry his mystery. shocking

insight into the john edwards love triangle. his former aide told "the new york times" edwards fathered a child with a mistress, all the while his wife was battling cancer. but it gets worse, a lot worse. edwards allegedly promised to marry his lover as soon as his wife died. plus, disturbing questions from the jaycee dugard case. now, investigators are trying to figure out whether these girls who could be his daughters were raped and molested by this monster. tonight, a bombshell in an

already very messy political scandal. is john edwards ready to publicly admit he's the father of his mistress' baby? well, some are claiming so. "the new york times" got their hands on a book proposal from a former staffer of john edwards, andrew young. young claims edwards has known all along that he fathered real hunter's child. admitting it publicly would be a major about-face. here is edwards last year on abc's "nightline." >> i know that it's not possible that this child could be mine because of the timing of events. so i know it's not possible. happy to take a paternity test. and would love to see it happen. >> young says edwards convinced him to sign an affidavit claiming he, the aide, was the father of hunter's child. young has since renounced that statement. now, here's the former senator in 2007, accepting the father of the year award. soon after, young says edwards was looking for a doctor to

falsify a dna report. if that is true, it would seem he would go to any lengths to disown an innocent little girl. then there were the preposterous things he allegedly promised his mistress while his wife battled cancer. those in a moment. i want to welcome back my fantastic panel. and joining us, of course, mark iglarsh. mark, this scandal just gets worst and worst and worst. is it possible that politicians that have risen to this leave still don't realize that in this day and age, with all the media out there and the bloggers and the internet and having a cast of thousands involved in your conspiracy, including aides and wealthy patrons you ain't gonna be able to keep a secret like this for very long? >> obviously, he didn't get it, or he would have been truthful with the american people from day one. i think that we're tired of it already. i think we speak for everybody

to say, first of all, i say this. and the second thing that i say is very clearly we are tired of people lying to us about events like this. just be honest, be open, and that will be okay. what he did in this case was morally reprehensible. you missed the sign, did you, jane? >> i want to see the sign. >> baby, right here. >> let me see. put it in the center because i can't really see it. thank you. i agree. because there's some -- you know what my book is about? tell the truth. be honest. >> yes, that was the zbloint po. >> when i got sober, you know what it takes to stay sober, rigorous honesty. okay? >> true. truth. >> and that's absolutely connected to this story. this guy, if -- what this aide is saying, brenda wade, this guy is a pathological liar. >> this is the tough thing. if somebody cheats and he

betrays, he can't be trusted. so how can we expect him to tell the truth? he doesn't know what the truth is. the elaborate scheming, buying a false dna test to cover up your trail? >> but that's not our business -- >> he's implicating so many people. so by definition, let's start with the most basic truth of all. mr. edwards is lacking integrity and character. and i believe it was einstein who said a life without integrity is a life with no beauty. this is ugly, ugly, ugly. >> wait a second, i think i just heard jayne weintraub defending john edwards. >> this is not our business. >> what? >> jane, what he has done is personal and political suicide. that's not our business. our business now is determining whether a crime was committed. and there are two legal issues. >> okay, i don't want to go into those right now. i want to go into what you just said because you just threw down the gauntlet. i think we have a sound bite right here -- perhaps wrong. john edwards made his wife's

cancer part of his political campaign. here's what he said publicly about his wife's elizabeth's tragic illness. >> i intend to do the same thing i've always done with elizabeth. we've been married 30 years. known each other longer than that. and we will -- we will be in this every step of the way together. >> okay. that's campaign. that's public. now, in a book proposal, his former aide is claiming he told his lover, rielle hunter, something very different. the aide claims edwards promised her once his wife died, presumably of cancer, he would marry her in a rooftop ceremony in new york city with a performance by the dave matthews band. again this is according to andrew young. if that's true, that is really beyond callous. >> i'm surprised that jayne really believes that. you're putting yourself out there. and when you go on national television, you say there's no way that that could be your o offspring, then you have now

clearly stepped over the line. >> hasn't he paid a personal price for that already and political suicide? the question now is whether it's obstruction of justice. this is not a judge -- a moral issue for us to judge him. he's got to live with that. and so do his wife and kids. >> let me get to the campaign issue. because you're talking about the legalities of all this. edwards says his affair with hunter ended in 2006. that year, his pac, political action committee, paid her more than 100 grand for a few videos she produced. so prosecutors are taking a close look at this. also claims in "the times" that wealthy patrons provided hunter with large financial benefits. including a bmw and lodging. >> yeah, if they can show willful deceit -- and they're going to try to do it -- then he may find himself stripped of his liberty. it's going to be difficult, but

they'll try. >> it's a stretch to say they were trying to pay her for her silence. and that would be obstruction of justice according to, you know, the investigation that's going on right now. >> why else do you give somebody a bmw and pay for their lodging? >> maybe because he was having an affair with her. >> that's what i said, because -- >> -- there's another side to this, jane -- >> -- not to distract him -- >> the whole thing that troubles me. go ahead, brenda. >> the part of it that troubles me. when we say it's not for us to judge, absolutely, i agree. it is not our job to judge. but it is our job to say if someone is an elected leader, a public figure, don't we have in some way, the right to expect them to serve as an example? this is a man who has children of his own. he has a wife who is ill. and how much immoral in the sense of what's right, what's fair, what's honest, what's loyal, what's trustworthy, do we have a right to expect from an

elected official? >> that's why he got out of the race. >> what i'm saying is at the end of the day, he is still a public figure. the fact that he resigned doesn't make him less of an example. he'd still been lying and saying the child couldn't be his and we're about to hear any day, i imagine that, in fact, the child is his. >> well, let's talk about that. elizabeth edwards has said -- >> -- he was thrown out -- >> -- has said she doesn't know whether her husband fathered the child. larry king asked her last month. if john was willing to take a paternity test. >> my expectation is at some point something happens. i hope for the sake of this child that it happens in a quiet way. >> friends of the couple claim it's elizabeth who doesn't want her husband to come cheap about paternity. first of all, i'd love to hear her side of the story. secondly, i have total and complete compassion for her. but isn't the truth, brenda wade, always the best option?

no matter how awkward? >> the truth is always the best option. the fact that mrs. edwards who is battling cancer, where it's important that a person not have high level, of adrenal cortical hormones going through their blood that only make the disease worth. truth could in fact help the healing. truth always does. >> but, mark, i want to get back to this. go ahead. >> in the criminal -- let me just say, i agree with what brenda's saying. i want to carry that through to the criminal justice system. i always instruct my clients to be truthful with intelligent and be truthful with themselves because the ones who get screwed in the criminal justice arena primarily are those who later have lies come back and bite them in the "you know what." >> here's the thing about lies. because i have studied so many lies as part of all the criminal investigations that i have done. and lies have to be protected by other lies. you can't just -- >> that's right. >> -- tell a lie because that lie is not truthful. so you have to cover it up with

other lies. those lies, in turn, have to be covered up with other lies. >> oh, there's a little nursery rhyme about that, isn't there, jane? it says oh what a tangled web we do weave when at first we choose to deceive. >> exactly. what happens is these toxic secrets grow more and more or nate, more unmanageable, more unwieldly, and then they explode right in our face. and that's exactly what has happened to john edwards. if he had just told the truth right at the start, we wouldn't be talking about it right now, janyne weintraub. >> he didn't have to say anything. unlike mark, i tell my clients, do not talk to anybody. do not make a comment. >> he had to comment. "the national enquirerer" caught him inally valter. >> when you're placed in a position where cameras are pointed at you and you're being asked question, you've got to then answer. i say you tell the truth. @x@p

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what kind of hell did jaycee dugard's two daughters live through? we are getting a first glimpse into their relationship with their alleged captor, phillip

garrido. but first, "top of the block" tonight. a jaw-dropper in the haley cummings case. new allegation from misty cummings brother. was misty not even at the house the night little haylee disappeared? he told cops that haleigh's dad asked him to check on misty at 10:00 that night. he says he knocked on the door and called her cell phone. she never answered. whoa. that's big. now, remember, mifsty says she went to sleep at 10:00 that night and haleigh was sleeping nearby. "issues" will keep you posted on that. is the king of pop's mom one step closer to get a stay in her son's estate? a judge ruled katharine can oversee the executors.

that's a major win for the woman who is already set to inherit 40% of michael's assets. if katherine gets to decide how to manage michael's future earnings, she could stand to make a lot more money. that's only if she makes smart financial decisions. we'll have to wait and see. that is tonight's "top of the block." a really shocking glimpse inside jaycee sdue guard's 18 years of hell. jaycee answered the question, did phillip garrido allegedly rape his own children? did he abuse the two daughters he apparently fathered with her? "the san francisco chronicle" reports jaycee told investigators no, that never happened. "the chronicle" also report jaycee insists garrido has not raped or molested her, jaycee, in years. is this true? or could jaycee be suffering from stockholms syndrome? is she trying to protect her alleged captor? police continue their intense search of the property. what or who could be under the

ground in that yard? cadaver dogs picked up a human scent and ground penetrating radar confirmed something, something is down there. now, another dog brought in just today. this one trained to find older human remains. has honed in on the very same exact spot. >> one of the dogs did alert in the same general area as last week's alert. which is also the same general area of the anomaly from the gpr scanning. that's going to be the area that we focus on this afternoon when we begin digging. >> here's brand-new video of today's search. cops ripped up concrete slaps and are feverishly digging underneath them. they found more bones. but investigators do not think those particular bones they just found are human. will they find the remains of two little girls? who went missing in the area? and what could jaycee possibly want from this filthy decrepit

prison she was kept in for almost two decades? well, we have an answer. brand-new reports from the associated press indicate jaycee is begging, begging, please, give me my pets back. plus, more evidence of garrido's erratic behavior. does this wacky black box hold clues to garrido's madness? so many new twists. straight out to the panel. mike eiglarsh. jayne weintraub. psychologist brenda wade. brenda, what are the chances that garrido never touched the two children he fathered with jaycee as jaycee is reportedly claiming? >> you know, jane, they're about 50/50. there's some possibility because they're his biological children maybe some impulse was triggered. on the other hand, this guy is a predator. he is a pedophile.

there is a high likelihood at the same time he did molest those little girls. we don't know. but i would say it's 50/50 at best. >> i have read studies or reports of cases where predators will prey on other people's children, but they won't engage in incest with their own children. >> exactly. >> okay. >> exactly. that can happen. but there are also cases where the predator can't resist touching any child. because if that child is there and they have access, they cross the line. >> i wouldn't believe a word that flows from this pedophilia's mouth. he's a doctor of evil. he repulses me. and it's very likely that this king of manipulation isolated these girls and made sure that they did not tell anyone of what he did to them. that's also the m.o., modus operandi for these types of people. and i wouldn't in any way listen to what they're saying. i would conduct an independent

investigation and find out. >> we're getting new insight into this guy's twisted mind. get this garrido claimed this black box, which you're about to see, could speak his thoughts. garrido made fwrenlds wear headphones, headphones, then moved his lips while his voice somehow came out of the box. he wrote a 20-page manifesto about the box. jayne weintraub? >> and this is why the defense lawyers are going to ask, as unpopular as it is, jane, to explore an insanity defense or in mitigation of whatever is going on here some psychiatric evaluations. this guy is crazy. three years ago he made this announcement about this box, saying that it could understand telepathically what he was trying to communicate without talking. and remember that he had -- >> i've got to leave it right there. we'll be back in a second. remember, drugs, lsd, acid. at the heart of the garrido case. he took drugs. this is national recovery month. as you know, i've always struggled with addiction. in my new book "iwant," i reveal

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they're doing well. you know, they're being protected. they're being deprogrammed and trying to find out what's going on and what happened the last 18 years. there has to be a trial here. so they're asking them a lot of questions. >> jaycee's stepdad speaking out. he's furious, sickened that police failed to notice what he was doing all those years. carl probyn hasn't seen jaycee since her rescue but he's describing her as a prisoner of war. brenda wade, good analysis in. >> i think it's a great analysis, jane, because even though she found a way to cope and to survive there is no way that the way that her mind works at this stage in the game is

what we would call normal because she has been imprisoned all of those years and we have no idea the horrors she's been subjected to -- >> do you think that jaycee is saying i wasn't touched for many years because she wasn't touched for many years, or could it be part of this programming of her brain that if you're ever caught you say this? >> well, jane, i think it could be either. and again, i'm in this position where i have to say it would be consistent if the guy's a pedophile. there's a certain time at which she's no longer what he's after because she wasn't a little girl anymore. she was becoming a woman. so we have that possibility. on the other hand, he clearly seems to be someone who thrives on control, manipulation, and domination of another human being. >> we are getting a peek into jaycee's world. the a.p. reporting she is pleading to get her pets back. animals, of course, have healing power.

they have unconditional love that can be therapeutic. they're used in hospitals with war veterans. and they apparently helped jaycee dugard and her children live through years of alleged abuse and isolation. animal control removed five cats, two dogs, and three cockatiels from these deplorable, disgusting tents in the yard. they also saved a pigeon and a mouse that jaycee reportedly kept. i find this fascinating, mark eiglarsh, that she was able to nurture not only her two children but all these animals. and this could have been what saved her sanity, and that's why she's demanding these companion animals back. >> absolutely. it's the least that you can do to bring her some love, some purity, from her own children and from those animals she found unconditional love, something that she didn't have thatfrom that monster. >> you were trying to make a point. >> i was trying to make a point, jane. jane, what i wanted to make a point was, to follow off what brenda said, assuming it's true that he didn't have any sexual

interest in her for the last couple of years, well, that would have meant what, so when she was 25, 26 he was no longer interested in her? she had become a woman way before then. so this guy's infatuation with her continued on after her prepubescent state. >> yeah. jayne, i'm going to give you the last word. 20 seconds. >> i just hope that she's able to heal, come forward, and go through a trial if we have to or not. >> absolutely. >> but she should heal and be well. >> i hope she doesn't have to testify. i hope they manage to nail him and his cohort without retraumatizing her and the children. you know, we are very, very, very excited about the latest addition to our primetime line-up on hln. watch "the joy behar show." it debuts tuesday, september 29th, at 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on hln. cannot wait. thank you to my fantastic panel. always great insights from

you' all of you. remember, click on cnn.com/jane and preorder your new copy of my book. pnip]p]uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu