now on "showbiz tonight" this week, the explosive mackenzie phillips incest debate. >> the sound bite, ten-year affair. that is the wrong way to characterize. >> the provocative debate, should mackenzie have kept quiet. tonight, have jon and kate become a laughing stock? they try to get serious with new careers after their split. how come everyone is making fun of them. >> you don't want the kids. >> of course i love kids. have you seen my girlfriend?

>> tonight is anyone taking jon and kate seriously? if you find anyone who does, can you have them give usa call? tonight the great "showbiz tonight" debate, are jon and kate now a lafrg stock. plus the startling pregnancy trend. why are so many big stars over 40 having babies? it's a must see showbiz special report. the weekend edition of tv's most provocative news show starts right now. hello, i'm a.j. hammer broadcasting tonight and every night from new york city. this is "showbiz tonight" this weekend. tonight the mackenzie phillips outrage. there's a startling backlash to mackenzie phillips shocking claims she had a sexual relationship with her famous father for ten years. now some members of her family are saying flat-out they don't

believe her. they don't believe it ever happened. "showbiz tonight" has been on top of every breaking development in this disturbing story. >> i need to be free. if in doing so, i have offended anybody, i am truly sorry for that. >> mackenzie phillips went on the "today" show to address the uproar that followed her shocking claim she shared on oprah, she and her father, john phillips of the mamas and papas had a sexual relationship for ten years. >> your father is supposed to test you, not -- >> showbiz will tell you mackenzie graphic details of incestuous sex and drug use provoked an explosive reaction including her famous stepmother and sister. >> it sounds like now there is definitely strive within the family. >> mackenzie's father john phillips was a founding member of the mamas and papas,

responsible for "california dreamin." john phillips died in 2001. the claims are from her new book that just came out, a memoir," high on arrival." . she claims her father first had sex with her after a drug induced blackout when she was a teen starring on "one day at a time." >> i woke up from a blackout to find migration having sex with my father. >> mackenzie said that led to a sexual relationship with her father. she disputed headlines that said ten-year affair. >> people said for ten years i had this relationship. at 18 i was molested. then maybe three years later i started waking up with my pants down around my ankles. then maybe two years after that it became consensual. so to call it a ten-year affair or relationship is not correct.

>> now, "showbiz tonight" can tell you, the phillips family is bitterly divided over mackenzie's claims. we learned today her stepmother, michelle phillips also in the mamas and papas is saying flat out mackenzie is lying. >> we spoke to michelle phillips who said she does not believe mackenzie. >> michelle phillips pulls no punches. she brings up the long history of drug abuse saying," you should take with a grain of salt anything that's said by a person with a needle stuck in her arm for years. it's disgusting. >> it has to hurt her. not only is she coming out telling her her truth but her stepmother comes out and publicly barbs her. >> on the other side, her sister, china, a phillips, one-third of the singing group wilson phillips. >> chynna, which "us" magazine spoke to is standing by her

sister. >> in her shocking interview with the magazine, she revealed she's known the shocking secret for more than a decade. she told us," i knew it was true. i mean, who in their right mind would make such a claim if it wasn't true. >> she said she wasn't very comfortable with mackenzie doing the book and wished she had come to her first and knew it was happening. she does support her. she's behind her. she loves her. >> this morning on the "today" show, mackenzie said the reaction from her family is all too typical. >> if you open a textbook on incest and you can see a picture of the phillips family. we're behaving in the typical way. the instinct is to say it's not true. the instinct is to deny. the instinct is to brush it under the table. the instinct is to protect the abuser. >> mackenzie still has hope the revelation won't tear her family apart. >> i know god willing as a

family we will be stronger when this all dies down. >> wow, there's more. in her interview onned "today" show, mackenzie revealed another bombshell. leslie marshall host of the leslie marshall show, also pat, an investigative journalist. just when we thought we'd heard everything on oprah, this morning on the "today" show, mackenzie didn't slam her father, she actually partially blamed herself for the consensual sexual relationship with him. you've got to watch what she said here. >> this was a warped event over time. what it started out as was molestation. i feel i had no accountability for the initial event. i believe i have some accountability for what went down afterwards. >> i'm not sure to make of that. mackenzie taking responsibility for what happened. pat, do you believe she bears any responsibility if this did actually happen. >> if she's listening i want her to go to a therapist's office

right now. she's not responsible if what she's alleging is true. her father may not have put a gun to her head. as i said, there is no consensual incest. she was under the spell of a man mired in drug and alcohol abuse, swimming in a domestic cesspool. she is not responsible for what happened. i completely disagree with her, if what she's saying is true. >> seems to me. there is growing evidence that the interest in mackenzie story is really exploding here. take a loot a this. this afternoon her new book called "high on arrival" hit number three on amazon's best seller list. to put that in perspective, it's not far behind number one, the dan brown book," the lost symbol." he's the guy that wrote "the da vinci code." the perfect example of how the mackenzie story is striking a

cord with so many people. why do you think that is? >> i think there's a lot of people in this country unfortunately that suffer from this secret. they feel i'm not alone. they feel they can relate to her. they can read through her nightmare and maybe not have to revisit and relive their own. statistically one in four people in america was molested as a child. whether that was an incestual relationship or not, we have very high numbers of people that have been affected by incest in this country, by molestation and these people feel somebody is finally speaking for me. mackenzie has become their -- captions by vitac -- voice. >> not to diminish that at all leslie. that is the sol reason the book climbed to number three. pat, tell me what you think here. she makes claims of her father teaching her to do drug, all the drugs they did together, the incest claims. do you think there's a bit of

the train wreck factor that is driving this thing? >> of course. of course mackenzie knew this when she wrote the book. this is a domestic land mine. it's shocking. we can't look away. i hate to use the term but there's a certain sleaze factor. if it can be cathartic for her, i'm all for it. too bad if her family doesn't like it. i think we can learn more from her than jon gosselin's trampb of the month and the fact he left eight young children in the dust. we want to hear that. >> i don't often give an amen but i'll give you one for that. >> thank you. >> not just buying her book, in her interview on the "today" show, mackenzie revealed she's been getting overwhelming support elsewhere since she told her story elsewhere. >> since the publication of the book yesterday, the outpouring of support from other incest survivors has been phenomenal.

this is a subject so incredibly tabu, as well it should be. there needs to be a dialogue about it. the covers need to be pulled. you can't keep sweeping this under the carpet. this is affecting families all over the world. >> that would be a good side affect of this. that said, leslie, do you think more people will be disturbed by mackenzie making claims than those helped by them? >> i know from the tweets and facebook e-mail messages and my talk show, a lot of people are very uncomfortable with her putting it out on oprah, not a psychiatrist couch. a lot of people saying tmi. when they say how many people coming out saying this is helping me, a lot of people feeling mixed now. >> thanks for joining us on "showbiz tonight" this weekend. as we move on, have jon and kate gosselin become a total laughing stock? they are both trying to start new careers. with this talk of clothing lines, tv talk shows, is anyone taking them seriously? i have the great jon and kate

debate. britney's ex-husband, kevin federline, remember him? he's packed on a few pounds. now his dramatic attempt to drop the pounds. i'll tell you how k-fed is trying to lose wait. let me ask you this. why are so many big stars over 40 having babies? what's going on. a must see special showbiz report. this is "showbiz tonight" weekend on hln. it is time for the showbiz news ticker. making news right now. you something about can tel

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whatever it takes to become a mom after 40. nicole kidman, hale berry, you've got to get ready for their inspiring stories of becoming a mom and loving it after 40. who says you can't have a kid if you're over 40? >> the last 25 years the number of women having babies over the age of 40 has doubled. this is huge, gigantic change in everything and hollywood is no exception. >> that's why "showbiz tonight" and "more" magazine unveiled women over 40 having twins and loving it. >> marcia cross was 44 when she announced her happy news on ellen in 2006. >> were you thinking of names? >> ellen is my sister's name and it's a favorite of mine. >> in 2007 she had twin girls

and nailed them not ellen but eden and savannah. it wasn't an easy road. >> they did in-vitro. it took them a long time to do. she was terrifically happy when it happened. >> hale berry gave a similar path. she gave birth at 41. she said it was a dream came true. "showbiz tonight" was with hale after the news and she told me what motherhood meant to her. >> just experiencing what motherhood is all about, unconditional love in my life, to raising a human being that i hope will be someone who will add something wonderful to this world in which we live in. that's the biggest challenge i can think of in life right now. >> berry didn't hide the fact it was hard to get pregnant after 40 but it was totally worth it. if there's a mom with a message out there, it's selma hayak,

it's okay to wait to have a kid. >> she was 41. >> that's why she makes the list of fabulous women who have had kids after 40. hayek has her own philosophy saying," motherhood is not for everyone. it is for me, but there's no reason women should feel rushed to have a child. holly didn't feel rushed to have her twins. she was 47. she's one of seven children herself. holly may be hollywood royalty. the beauty of holly, she's bound and determined to keep her kids out of the spotlight and she has. nicole kidman's star spotlight is unavoidable. she's right at the top of more magazine list of women who had kids over 40. when she was 40 years old, kidman and her country superstar keith irvin welcomed their baby

together. >> she had two adopted children with tom cruise. this was her first child by logically. what's so lovely, she said she felt her heart stretching. >> does nicole planning on having more? she tells me she isn't rulings it out. >> if i have more kids, that's beautiful. i would love to be able to get lost in that. >> well, they are certainly not the only fabulous women who have had kids after 40. look at this, gene, a davis did at 53. helen hunt, jennifer beals and mariska hargitay had them when they were 45. beverly deangelo had a kid when she was 57, if you can believe it. be sure to pick up a copy of "more" magazine on news stands now. on call operators over 40, they look fabulous. maybe something in the "showbiz tonight" office water. so jon gosselin hasn't been shy into jumping into the big old dating pool. we're still getting tons of

calls about jon and kate. "showbiz tonight" on call from melissa in oregon. she says she knows why jon is dating around. >> i think kate is a wonderful mother. i think jon already knew how she was before he married her. so what he got was what he got. they had eight children together. i think he's going through a midlife crisis. >> i appreciate your call. maybe not a midlife crisis, jon is in his early 30s. we heard from vanessa, she squarely blames kate for the breakup. >> i think we should really look at jon. kate is a good mother but she was a horrible wife. she was very abusive to him and she embarrassed him throughout the entire show. >> i appreciate your call. you can call the showbiz online phone lines.

leave us a voice mail and we'll play some of your calls here on "showbiz tonight." and your calls to showbiz on call are on line on our home page, cnn.com/"showbiz tonight." have jon and kate alabama total laughingstocks? has anyone taken them seriously? i have the great jon and kate debate. christina aguilera's shocking claims about her childhood. how her father made her life hell. reporters confronted on live tv. >> we're on live with ms. >> would you mind. >> please don't touch the microphone. >> tell us what your thought is. >> my thought is that you are rude. >> you know how annoying it is when people talk when you're in a movie theater trying to watch a film, right? how about a reporter talking during a political event? people seem to get really annoyed. annoyed. it's all on live tv.

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now, on "showbiz tonight" this week, jon and kate from love to laughingstocks? they are trying to get serious with their careers so why is everyone making fun of them? are these two just total laughingstocks. k-fed gets k-fit, the dramatic new way britney spears' ex revealed he's trying to lose weight and get his sexy back. christina aguilera's explosive claims about how she and her mom were abused by her dad. the showbiz news ticker. the most provocative news show continues right now.

back to "showbiz tonight" this weekend. it's 30 minutes past the hour. i'm a.j. hammer broadcasting tonight and every night from new york city. tonight are jon and kate becoming national laughingstocks? what is the deal. more jokes have been rolling in about jon and kate. they are no longer the beloved reality show stars, they are now the butt of jokes around the country in a big way. wait until you see the brand-new riffs, spoofs, nothing off limits, from jon's filandering ways, to kate's hair choices, comedians are having a field day with these two. is this the way they want people to see them. joy reveals to showbiz what she really thinks of kate gosselin after hanging out with her on the view?

are all those valid? i sat down with joy as she gets ready to launch her new show on hln. she does not hold back on the real story on kate gosselin. ken baker, executive editor for "e." lisa, a journalist. it is the jon and kate bonanza, the back and forth drama of jon and kate gosselin as they went from this messy divorce went from being a serious matter on their show jo "jon & kate plus eight." he got a speeding ticket in pennsylvania. apparently he was going nowhere fast. did you see gosselin on good morning america last week? he said that he was abused when he was married to kate. he said she yelled at him, constantly belittled him and made him do things he didn't

want to do. okay, jon. that's called marriage. wake up. wake up. >> it seems to me jon and kate had all this coming, if you ask me. ken, are you surprised they became such a laughingstock or are you kind of like me, it was inevitable. >> i think it was inevitable. you know what, a.j., sometimes when we're tired of crying, you have to laugh. this has been a very sad tragic story for a very long time. even in its most sad or tragic moments, people knew two things are funny, bad hair and beer guts. when you put them on reality stars, you're going to laugh. i think that's eventually what happened. seriously, though, there's the tragedy. the one thing that is not funny about this is that there are eight kids caught in the cross fire of a faze, public, bitter divorce. i think that people are now starting to say, you know what, we've got to make fun of this. it's past the statute of

limitations of tragedy, we have to play it for humor. it's ready for comedy. >> i didn't know what the statute was, but i appreciate that. >> the rules are here. >> i appreciate you taking care of that for us. what struck me about the whole thing. it's not jon and kate, save from all the spoofs and joke, kate reportedly shot a show for her own talk show, a pilot for it, something she may be doing with paula dean. jon is busy dating his soul mate as he put it 2.2-year-old kelly glassman. these are two things that got jimmy kimmel thinking of the perfect spoof. what a new jon and kate show would be like. >> sixteen desperate single womb, one available guy. kate gosselin presents, who wants to be the underaged shut having sex with my husband above the garage while he's supposed to be watching a litter of kids. >> lisa, what do you think about

all the drama about both of them that's been in the news lately and how jon is with this woman who is ten years younger than them? do jon and kate deserve to be a laughingstock? >> i'll tell you something. i think, yes, they do. what does it mean when you are made the butt of jokes by guys like jimmy kimmel and jay leno, it means you've arrived. you're stars. you've been ushered into the pop culture as major stars. you're in the game now. you're brands. you've arrived. i think it actually only helps anything else that they want to do. his clothing line. her doing a talk show where she's sitting along renee siler, lee woodruff, a journalist, paula dean, obviously a huge star. she is now a huge star. i think these late night talk show hosts, they can't help but ignore these people everybody is talking about. a.j., you and i and most of your

guests, haven't we been having fun for months now before jay and the rest of them. >> that's true. if that's your definition of having arrived, i think it happened sometime ago, when you think of comedian, "showbiz tonight" kathy griffin, she's been making a living off taking stabs at jon and kate for months now. she's been doing it a while. take a look at the spoof she did for jimmy kimmel live. >> i told you monsters to cram a polly pocket in those pie holes. mommy is doing a satellite feed with regis. >> mom, we're thirsty. >> wah, here, drink the tears of fame. >> here is what she thinks of jon. >> he's a tool. people think she's a nightmare, call in and say she's horrible. it's kate plus nine. she's another winner with the tummy tuck, you know. my mother

didn't have a tummy tuck. she has a box of wine and a muumuu. >> when comedians make these kinds of jokes, could it ruin jon and kate's chances to be taken seriously? they are trying to have careers outside the reality show. >> kids, shut up. no, you can't have a drink. really what it is, jon gosselin, last i checked, is not running for senator of pennsylvania. he's running to get another reality show, okay? last i checked, he wants to do a reality show as a divorced dad trying to move on with his life. he knows what he is. he knows what his brand is. it's not barack obama. his brand is like joe six-pack. i think it's going to be totally fine. >> joy behar stopped by "showbiz tonight" this afternoon and told me what she thinks about jon and

kate being hafg stocks. i must point out joy behar, watch it every weekday on hln. joy did not hold back when i asked her what she thought about the gosselins becoming a laughingstock. >> i don't think they care. they have all these kids to support. they will do whatever they have to do to make money. i can't fault her for that. she needs to make money now to support those children. >> kate is trying to get a talk show, jon dabbling with a fashion line, maybe getting a reality show. are you with joy, gosselins don't care what people think of them. as long as they are talking about them and making money for themselves and the kids. >> i think that's absolutely the case. that's what pop culture is for a lot of people. you realize we've been saying this kind of for a while. there's really no such thing as bad publicity. unless you really murder somebody or do something so heinous, there really isn't such thing as bad publicity anymore. >> for people like jon and kate.

thank you, guys, i appreciate it. what is with jon gosselin's apparent sex appeal. i'm telling you this reality tv star has got some kind of strange mojo that seems to be driving women wild. what is it about this guy, his looks, personality, fame? we are breaking down jon's strange sex appeal in a brand-new investigation. from one sexy star dad to one who is trying to get his sexy back, it's britney's ex-husband kevin federline. he's packed on a few pounds. k-fed is trying to get k-fit in a dramatic new way. wait until you see what he's doing to drop the weight. this brand-new stuff i've been reading about christina aguilera's childhood is so painful. opening up about claims her father abused her and her mother. christina and her own emotional words on what she went through. this is "showbiz tonight" weekend. news ticker from the newsroom making news right now.

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if you're seeing changes in a loved one that you think could be alzheimer's disease. you'll get screening tools to talk to your doctor about memory, behavior, or everyday problems you're seeing and help you move closer to a diagnosis. you'll also learn about an alzheimer's prescription treatment option. be the one who makes the most of your time together, go to youcanbetheone.com. welcome back to "showbiz tonight" this week. i'm a.j. hammer in new york. tonight is jon gosselin sexy? is the 32-year-old playboy father of eight a sexy man? believe it or not there's a brand-new story out there that says a lot of people out there do think jon gosselin is a catch, a stud muffin, a ten out of ten. let's take a look at this bad boy in action.

all right. stop that right now. >> also kevin fitterline. we learned britney spears's ex-husband who put on pounds is doing what any upstanding celebrity would do after a weight gain, he's joining a reality show. good move or drape wrea train w. we must begin with the burning question raised today, why do women everywhere find jon gosselin sexy? what is his secret that drives women mad? has he a girlfriend ten years younger. lots of women have been coming out of the woodwork alleging they have been with him, too. please, explain it to me, is jon gosselin sexy? >> we know it's not his six-pack. women find him sexy.

he's a smooth talker. he he goes in and tells them he's actually going to be with them for ever and they believe it. >> this is what women have said. he's smooth when he want to be. a fast mover. told "showbiz tonight" she lost her head with jon and told me just how she got swept away the first time they met? >> i just thought it was a little bit fast how he invited me to dinner and invited me to this party and we held hands and kissed in the car. >> that was on the first night. >> yes. >> you kissed on the first night. >> unfortunately yes. >> fast mover, indeed. megan, from what we're hearing about jon gosselin, do you get how women everywhere can be totally and utterly attracted to this dude? >> some of the women are still in love with the original jon gosselin that america fell in love with. the guy who was a good father,

loved his eight kids. that image is peeling away. it still carries. the women that dated him are not so much in love with jon gosselin but the attention dating jon gosselin brings them. >> a lot of people talking about, "showbiz tonight" page was in full debate mode. you know what i mean if you checked it out. women were firing off left and right. no one could agree on one simple question, is jon gosselin sexy. let me read what some are writing. sherry h says. heck yes he has pretty asian eyes. he likes kids and dogs. he has money and was off limits for a while. susan agrees, he is way fine and because he was treated so wrongly by that b pleas me want to just love on him and show him how it can really be. then the other side with the haters checking in. lisa l writing," he doesn't appeal to me, short, dork.

i don't think he is good looking and who wants to date a guy with eight kids. have any of those swayed you, how you feel? >> absolutely not. jon is still the guy who manages to have these eight kids, run around, have his life, have his bachelor ways on the side, have these girls. i'm just astounded women find him sexy. >> you didn't come in gushing about it. let's move to the other big divorce dad news. kevin federline wants to lose weight. the much heavier kevin federline has been the butt of jokes because of a big weight gain. we learned kevin is going to join "celebrity fit club" so he can get back down to his dancing body. what do you think? is this a good idea for k-fed or a train wreck waiting to happen? >> it's a train wreck. i don't doubt it for a moment he

purposefully packed on pound. this is the same guy that tried to be a rapper, actor. he's been riding britney spears coattails as long as he could. the only way it would be interesting is if britney spears showed up. you know they have thought of that. >> the former girlfriend indicate jackson, the mother of two of his kids, she's going to join the show as well. is it too cynical that perhaps kevin put on this weight to get on this show? >> he hasn't been working out. i think he put this weight on. all he does is go to clubs, get paid to show up, parties non-stop. he's drinking, eating and loving it. being on the show is going to be the best thing that could happen to his career. >> good luck, k-fed, there's a lot of pressure to stay thin. maybe this show will add to the pressure. thank you, guys. making news, christina

aguilera is opening up about being abused by her father. this is really so-so heart wrenching. there's a new tv documentary out. she claims her army sergeant dad not only hit her but abused her mom and sister as well. here is what she told e. i witnessed a lot of unpleasant things, pushing and shoving, fighting and quarreling. growing up i did not feel safe. feeling powerless is the worst feeling in the world. i turned to singing as an outlet. the pain at home is where my singing came from. aguilera's home describes a shocking and who are irveg incident where she found four-year-old christina with a bloody nose. i skood scooped her up and she told me, daddy wanted to make a nap and i made too much noise. he's asked for forgiveness but she doesn't want him in her

life. >> we're on live with ms nbc. tell us what your thought is. >> my thought is you're rude. >> you know how annoying it is when people are gab, gab, talking during a political event. everybody wants him to be quiet. people get really annoyed. it's all on live tv. you have got to see these outbursts for yourself. this is "showbiz tonight" this weekend on hln. time for the show piz news ticker. making news right now. ♪ well i was shopping for a new car, ♪

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tonight, a family torn apart. mackenzie phillips back on oprah again with more head-spinning clals about incestuous sex, drug addiction and rape. this time she has ammo. she's bringing her sister, who's now backing up mackenzie's claims of incest with her dad. but other members of mackenzie's clan are lining up against her, charging, you lie. "issues" has exclusive information from the family of john phillips. and a double does of evil. blood-soaked walls, beaten dogs, and day care? a horrific dogfighting ring, busted up out of all places a child care center in illinois.

what? ten children taken out during a police raid. cops say these poor dogs were tortured and fighting to the death right next to a children's swing set. who were the sickos who thought dogfighting and day care were a good mix. also, reliving a long nightmare. jaycee dugard says she will take the stand against phillip garrido. she wants to testify against the monster who's accused of holding her captive for 18 long years. this could force her to reveal every gut-wrenching and sordid sexual detail in front of the whole world. all while this poor woman is trying to rebuild her life. tonight's big issue, does the criminal justice system victimize rape survivors twice. plus, a celebrity superstar busted for allegedly skipping out on his hotel bill. randy quaid and his wife were arrested in texas, accused of owing a hotel $10,000. that's a lot of trips to the mini bar. and check out these mug shots. quaid claims the bill is paid, and says the hotel's doing this

all for publicity. who do you believe? "issues" starts now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com shocking and re volting actions ignite a family feud. the whole world knows this by now. mckenzie phillips says she had sex with her own father, rock legend, john phillips. she claims daddy pulled her into a frightening world of drugs and forbidding sex. she reveals what she calls her dark et secrets to, who else, oprah. >> i woke up that night from a blackout to find myself having sex with my own father. your father is supposed to protect you. your father is supposed to protect you. not [ bleep ] you. >> mackenzie's horrifying allegations are dividing her showbiz family. especially since john is dead. and he cannot defend himself. stepmom, michelle phillips says, you lie. take with a grain of salt

anything said by somebody who had a needle in their arm for 35 years. mackenzie was back on oprah today, but this time sister china came along who backed her up. >> i'm proud of my sister. you know, am i exceedingly joyful that my family secret that i told maybe my therapist, my husband, and my very best friend in the world know now sm a platform for everybody to know? it's very upsetting. >> so you've known for a while. >> i've known for a long time. >> mackenzie's other sister, actress beju phillips is also speaking out. she lived alone with her dad since she was 3 years old. and you will not believe what she has to say. are these horrific claims true? will we ever know? mackenzie says she has a handful of people who know it happened. but is she trustworthy? just last year, mackenzie got busted for heroin and cocaine. we know addicts lie. is she sober now?

straight out to my fabulous panel, criminal defense attorney mike eiglarsh. cnn legal analyst, lisa bloom. psychiatrist dr. dale archer. curtis sliwa, founder of guardian angels. also talking only to us tonight, the widow of john phillips. thank you so much for joining us on the phone. i understand that you did not want to be on camera. but you still felt that you had to speak out to clear john's name. what was your reaction when you first heard these claims? do you believe them or not? >> under no circumstances do i believe this. i always knew john. and i always knew mackenzie. considering the source, mackenzie phillips admitted that she's a liar. >> why do you think, if you believe that she lied, and let's face it, none of us knows what

happens behind closed doors. nobody really is going to know, because he's dead. and how can we verify what she's saying? but if you believe that she is lying, why would she lie about something like this? >> she's been through a couple of years of hard times, a tough life. and she just is putting out the book right after that. like you said, on the jim morrow show, that it might be the anger. i can add drugs and money into it. and -- drugs and money? >> yes. because she is making money at it. listen to this. if you take a couple of pages out of the book that she refers to john and allegations she has against john, that book would have never been sold. >> well, yeah, of course. the reason it's a best seller is she's saying she had sex with her famous father, and he shot her up, and he incested her. these are horrifying claims.

>> and john cannot defend himself. that's why i'm on the phone with you. i want to defend him, speak for him. i know john was -- >> how long were you married to him? >> i was married to john for six years, and he was sober for like five and a half years out of it. and he was -- he loved his family. he would do anything possible. >> was he a drug addict and alcoholic? >> when i was married to him, no. >> but previous to that? in other words, he sobered up? what years were you married to him? >> i was married to him from 1995 up until 2001 when he passed. and he was -- >> so he finally got sober? he finally got sober, which is wonderful news. did he ever say to you, i have problems with mackenzie? boy, she's trouble? or something really awful happened? >> john was a very honest person, not like mackenzie says, he was a liar.

he was never a liar. even wrote a book about himself a long time ago blaming himself for everything, that half of it wasn't even him. if he did something like that, don't you think an honest person would put that in his book? he never did that. i'm 100% sure. >> thank you for coming on our show exclusively and talking about your belief that john phillips did not commit the incest that his daughter, mackenzie, is accusing him of. >> yes. the last thing she can chew on, and she's chewing on it. my problem is that the headaches she's caused in the family. i'm very upset that -- biju is upset, i love biju. and i think it's not right to have family divided. >> yeah. and boy, thank you. this has divided the family.

mackenzie's sister, ak trest biju phillips said mackenzie told her about the abuse, then said, you know what, it never really happened. bijou said the man who raised me would never be capable of doing such things. it is heartbreaking to to think that my family would leave me alone with him. that raises a very good question. lisa bloom, if this actually happened, should mackenzie have made a motion to keep bijou away from john? but bijou said she was raised by a guy like mr. mom and was a loving and supportive father. >> absolutely. the problem mackenzie phillips has is that she is a life-long drug addict, a serious addict. i'm talking about heroin and cocaine being shot into her arms on a daily basis for many years. it doesn't mean her story is untrue. it probably is true. i represented a woman very much like mackenzie phillips who had

had a consensual adult relationship with her father. it's absolutely devastating. it does happen. but the way that mackenzie phillips has gone about this is all wrong, because she's done it by trying to sell a book. that means everybody is suspicious of her motives. she could have come out, for example, i would have advised her, come out and be the national spokesperson for the incest and rape survivor network. tell your story. people are more likely to believe you. also, frankly, before your father died, this is very suspicious in a lot of people's minds and rightly so. >> dr. dale archer, you know, it's so troubling because there's no way for us to verify, and she waited until after her father died, even though he got sober before he died. and there's -- this is destroying the family. michelle phillips says that all of the nieces and nephews in the phillips family are not going to school now. they're staying home and they're sobbing because she has essentially shamed the entire

phillips family. is that something that she should have taken into consideration or not? >> no. i mean, look, she shamed the phillips family, maybe so. she has been living with and dealing with it over her entire life. there is never an easy way or good way to come forward with this. i say bravo. any way you can get this message out. this is an epidemic in america. there are women that this happens to -- >> incest is an epidemic? i didn't know that. >> absolutely. it is huge. and it's impossible -- >> adult incest? >> only if you are in the field and you treat people as a psychiatrist or a psychologist, do you hear these stories time after time after time, again. and the women are -- >> but are the people that you're hearing them from addicts? heroin addicts? >> they're all -- who has just gotten sober less than a year ago? >> how about the stories about adult incest. >> all i will say is that it is so hard to come forward, and this is always what happens, no one believes you.

all the time a girl will come forward and tell the story, and the mom will support the dad. >> wouldn't it be a better idea to go into family therapy and tell your family, this is what happened to me. because apparently she's told people this in the past. but then according to michelle and bijou, she took it back and said it didn't happened. >> you know, jane, i think that you're right. there is a good way to do it. but any way to get this out is very important. and it's not easy to do. >> got to take a break. >> and if it took a book for her to do this, i say that's fine. if this sheds a light on this problem, then that is a good thing. >> more on mackenzie phillips in just a bit. give me a holler, 1-877-586-7297. do you believe her? dogfighting and day care? under the same roof? we can't even show it to you it's so bad. we'll update you on the condition of some unbelievably tortured dogs. but first, more on mackenzie

phillips' alleged incestuous affair with her father. here she is in 1996 talking about her father as a role model. pretty creepy stuff. >> we have to remember that we are our children's role models. you know? my role model was my father whok had hair down his back and was wearing a dress. you know? and said whatever turns you on. new elations. clinically proven to improve joint comfort... in as little as six days. drinking it every day keeps it working. elations has clinically proven levels... of glucosamine and chondroitin, in a powerful form that's more absorbable... than joint supplement pills. tastes great. goodbye, horse pills. start your joints on the road to comfort... in one pack, six days. that's elations. the new standard in joint health. proclaims "gq" magazine. did you see that? the interior "positively oozes class," raves "car magazine."

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i went to my father and i said, look, we need to talk about how you raped me. and my dad said, raped you? don't you mean when we made love? and in that moment i thought, wow, i'm really on my own here. >> mackenzie phillips on oprah, shocking claims from the former tfb actress. she says she carried on an ensent wous relationship with her dad for ten years. she writes about it in her new book, a best seller "high on arrival." phone lines lighting up on this one. taun, your question or thought?

>> caller: hi, jane. i'm just calling to say i don't really think any of this is true. i think she's just trying to make money for your book. >> you raise an interesting point. and i want to talk about why people do things, curtis sliwa. i know children of addicts of alcoholics are often extremely mad at their addict parent. so there could be various levels of motivation. it could be she wants a book. she has a tv show. but she also could have a lot of deep-seeded anger. i want to quote quickly from my book about growing up in an alcoholic household. children of alcoholics experience trauma when they grow up with a person who isn't really present the way a sober person is. often these children have been traumatized by the excessive drama in the household. rageful, weepy or detached children of alcoholics and addicts have a tendency to develop bitterness over their stilted relationship with the alcoholic or addict parent.

>> man, i'd be crazy mad against this guy. this guy was a freaky deeky guy. he just talked about the story of ryan o'neal at the wake. the final viewing of farrah fawcett. beautiful blond comes up and kisses him, hello, ryan, and he tries to put the squeeze on her and said, what are you doing after the wake? you and me got the urge to merge. she said, ryan, it's me, your daughter, tatum. he admitted this. >> there's a big difference between that story and this story. >> these guys believe in this come live and let live, laws yea fair. and what she father said was, oh, you've got to accept the fact that this is the kind of a lifestyle you live. are you crazy? >> jane, i've got to get in here. jane -- >> hold on. let's see the panel. let's see the panel. mark eiglarsh. >> thank you, jane. first of all, you've got dale archer saying bravo. sliwa con visting him already.

let me explain something, the only thing we know for sure is none of us will ever know for sure whether this happened. that's number one. and number two, as i tell my jurors, when i'm raising questions about someone's credibility, there's a difference between believability and accuracy. so even if when you see this oprah interview, she looks believable, it may be entirely different whether she's accurate, whether this really did happen or whether it was imagined in order to sell books or when she was in a drug-induced state. >> i think drugs is at the heart of all of this. mackenzie talks about growing up in a crazy drug-filled world. she says she was 10 when she was rolling joints for her dad. 13 when she was -- he was helping her shoot up at the age of 13. she tells oprah her dad brought her to a party where she had sex with rocker mick jagger, who hasn't responded to this. i'm waiting to hear from him. when she was only 18. listen to this one. >> so my dad walks out.

mick turns around, locks the door and looked at me and he says, i've been waiting for this since you were 10 years old. and my dad, you know, comes back and -- that's my daughter in there! let her out! we just -- we ignored him. >> lisa bloom, mick jagger hasn't responded. but boy, he's probably fuming across the pond as it were. >> well, at least she was 18. so he wasn't proposing anything that was illegal. although it's disgusting if he knew her since she was a little girl. this is america, people are entitled to respond to allegations that smear their reputation for all of history. this man has passed away in 2001. like i said, i tend to believe her. but i'm really offended at the way that she has gone about this, waiting many years after her father was gone to disclose it. the so-called witnesses who support her side are only people who she told. they didn't see anything. they didn't hear anything. there doesn't seem to be any evidence. and she's a wealthy woman. she comes from a wealthy family.

>> wait, wait, wait. >> by way of selling a book. >> wait a second. i don't know how wealthy she is. maybe there's a jealousy factor here because the mama and papa's fortune has not descended on her, mike eiglarsh. >> that is very possible. lisa pointed out by coming out with a book, now you've got bias, motive, interest, all those things that should not be present if she had just come out with no interest at all. what i say to all the people out there, don't jump to conclusions, because you just don't know. and if it really did happen, dale, she does in fact deserve our compassion and sympathy. but we don't know. >> we have to wrap it up right there. we could talk about this forever. >> doesn't anybody listen to chynna? >> it's over. you know, seriously, my dad was an alcoholic. in my new recovery memoir i write about that. i talk about how my own father's alcoholism encouraged me to

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reliving a nightmare. jaycee dugard says she will take the stand against phillip garrido. she wants to testify against the monster who is accused of holding her captive for 18 long years. tonight, big issue, does the criminal justice system victimize rape survivors twice. plus, a celebrity superstar busted for allegedly skipping out on his hotel bill. randy quaid and his wife were arrested in texas accused of owing a hotel 10,000 bucks. that's a lot of trips to the mini bar. tonight, jaycee dugard's

family talks their own version of revenge on phillip garrido. get this, jaycee's stepdad says he can't wait to write garrido taunting letters while he's locked up. i will be telling him how her family is doing, that we are at disney world or out having dinner laughing and having a wonderful time. probyn witnessed garrido snatching jaycee off the street in 1991. here he is just days later. >> watched the car go up the hill. and i saw my daughter making the curve up there, all of a sudden the car darted across the road, cut her off. i saw the door open. i jumped on my bike, i heard her scream. i realized i couldn't catch him in time. so i came back down and called 911. >> everybody wondered, was he telling the truth at the time. this ruined that man's life. that's the alleged monster right there, convicting this guy could

mean more pain and trauma for jaycee. can she handle the face-to-face with garrido in court. her attorney says absolutely. here he is on the cbs "early show." >> very clearly understands that some very bad and terrible things were done to her. and the people that commit those crimes need to be held accountable. >> these pictures give you just an idea of what life was like for jaycee for 18 long years. this filth is just the tip of the iceberg. imagine her on the witness stand, having to answer questions about what ga riddo did to her, about giving birth to her children when she was herself a child. how is she going to get through that? and that brings me to tonight's big issue, are rape victims raped a second time by having to relive their nightmares on the stand, giving graphic testimony about their humiliating violations. isn't it like being victimized all over again. back to my fantastic panel. curtis sliwa, can we even

imagine what it's going to be like if jaycee dugard has to take the stand and go face-to-face with that creep? >> well, jane, i've been cross-examined many times. but it pales in comparison to what this woman is going to have to go through. and i would think the defense attorney for the two monsters, garrido and his wife, when given the opportunity to cross-examine her, will say, we refuse to ask any questions. we're not going to ask any questions. we rest with this witness. and let her just retire. i realize the prosecution may have to extract from her some details that are going to prove very harmful to her psyche, to have to relive it. but if the defense team would be stand up, they wouldn't ask her -- they wouldn't even go there. they wouldn't even go there. just rest with that witness. >> i disagree that it is harmful, jane. i'll tell you why. i represented rape victims and child sexual abuse survivors for many years. most people think what you're saying, it's psychologically

damaging to testify. it's horrible. it damages you a second time. wrong. what my clients tell me they're all scared before hand, but what they told me afterwards was it was empowering to testify. they already lived through the worst part. to get on the witness stand, to look that bad guy in the eye and to tell the truth about what happened, and ideally to get a conviction against that person, is very empowering. and they want to go out of their courtroom with their head held high. they started out with the little voice because they were so scared. we have to dispel the notion it's a terrible thing to testify in a trial. it is not. >> jane, the bottom line is, we are still -- we still have a court system in this country. and of course, jaycee has to come to court and testify against her accuser. just because this is the worst of the worst, and this really is the worst, it doesn't take away the fact that we still have to have a trial, and he has to be proven guilty in court. and the key witness in the case

is clearly jaycee. she has to testify. >> this is happening to so many young women. what kind of agony do these rape victims have to endure when they testify against their attackers. remember elizabeth smart? she may be called to do exactly that soon at a mental competency hearing for one of her alleged kidnappers. a husband and wife accused of kidnapping smart in 2003 when she was just 14 years old so they could keep her as a plural wife, just another one of these horrific stories that ended in a miraculous rescue. but this young girl, now older obviously, is going to have to testify. i don't understand, dale archer, why can't they do this on videotape? why do they have to be in the courtroom and face the person who tortured them? >> actually i completely agree with lisa on this. this is very therapeutic. this is one more step to getting back to a normal life. and let's face it, jaycee dugard is a survivor. she is going to do fine with this. i have been so impressed with the fact that for 18 years she was able to come through this

with her life, and with her two children's lives intact, when this guy possibly could have been involved in murders or other abductions along the way. so i think jaycee's going to be fine. and i think that lisa is correct. this is a big -- >> what the hell are you talking about? what do you mean fine? how the hell can you talk -- you ever have to testify in court? you asking the questions. we have to preserve the sanctity of the court. >> i agree with curtis. i agree with curtis. you can't use the word fine when it comes to this horrific situation. but you can't say that maybe we hope it's a catharsis for her. we've got to move on to another horrific story. turning now to a gruesome secret under covered at a chicago day care. are you sitting town? mutilated, starving animals, bloody walls and floors, filthy syringes, all part of a horrific dogfighting ring. and get this, it was just steps from a child's swing set.

ten children were removed from the home during the raid. because it was a day care center. one of the three suspects is married to the day care center operator. after these men were arrested, police discovered something even sicker. suspect martez anderson's cell phone had a video of a dog being burned to death. this is outrageous. police rescued nine mangled dogs from the home. four of them puppies covered in scars. >> this is a difficult one to completely sum up given the carnage, given what you see on these poor dogs. then add to it it was going on within feet of a day care center. there was a swing set, less than ten feet from the swing set was a log the dogs were chained to. it is very unsettling to put it lightly. >> that little white puppy, the sheriff was holding, had his eye ripped out. look at that. the helpless creature was tossed into the fight in the form of bait. there were at least two

complaints about dogs at this home in 2006 and 2007. child welfare officers made up announced visits. but because the dogs were locked in a garage, nothing was done. that is unacceptable. straight to my expert panel joining me. jane, this is outrageous. isn't this where animal cruelty goes hand in hand to cruelty to children? >> absolutely, jane. these dogs could have gotten out of that garage. they could have attacked these kids. they could have killed these kids. and besides the dogs, i wouldn't want kids left in a home with those sadistic individuals. somebody who finds pleasure in setting a dog on fire and watching her burn would have no problem torturing a kid. these people should be put away for many, many years. not only for what they did to these innocent dogs, but for endangering these kids. >> this case has so many sick details, but the suspect's cell phone video of a dog being burned alive, it's about add

bass as it gets. martez had a whole lot to say about why the dogs were on death's door. listen to this. >> it was a few dogs, like i said, for the exception of the little puppy, he got smashed in the door. that was sheerl an accident. the door fell on the puppy. that's how the dog's eye got come out. >> lisa bloom, is that the most pathetic excuse you've ever heard? >> absolutely, jane. i'm the owner of a pit bull and a rescue dog. i think what people fail to understand is these animals experience pain and fear and suffering just as we do. we all have to stand up against dogfighting. i'm just celebrating 32 years as a vegetarian. i know you are, too, jane. and also, speak out on behalf of all the animals who are in cages, who are in terrible conditions as farm animals. it is horrendous across the board. we've become so disconnected from other living, breathing animals who experience the same

fear and pain and suffering as we do of the it's just got to stop. >> absolutely, jane. and the other thing that people can do is in their own communities, they should watch out for signs of dogfighting. everyone can be the eyes and the ears for these dogs. you have to watch for dogs who are chained outside, or unsocialized dogs. equipment such as treadmills or ropes or tires hanging from trees. and watch for dogs who have a lot of scars on their face. or people coming and going at odd hours into homes. but curtis -- report these people. >> curtis sliwa, children services went there and said, oh, the dogs are in the garage. that's okay. that's outrageous to me. >> we're going to hear children services, they're overwhelmed. they have too many cases. open up your eyes. go out, check the entire area. do your job. you know something, jane? did you see the smirk on martez's face when he said, oh, the door hit the puppy. you like ultimate fighting, martez?

how about you and the pit bull, one-on-one. and let the pit bull do you in, right there in your jugular. and we're not going to tap you out. >> we've got to leave it right there. horrific for animals, horrific for children. thank you, awesome panel. michael jackson's former friend reveals some of the pop star's dark secrets. did michael really call hitler a genius? is that possible? actor randy quaid arrested h for allegedly skippinging out -- you will not believe this.he you might as well be. you see, their moisturizer sits on top of skin, almost as if you're wearing it. only new dove deep moisture has nutriummoisture, a breakthrough formula with natural moisturizers... that can nourish deep down. it's the most effective natural nourishment ever. new dove deep moisture with nutriummoisture. superior natural nourishment for your skin. are working from the road using a mifi-- a mobile hotspot that provides

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we're going to debate it. but first, "top of the block" tonight. explosive and head-spinning revelations about the king of pop. did michael jackson think hitler was a genius? according to jackson friend, jackson not only felt that way, he was 100% convinced. he also said jackson considered dating best friend elizabeth taylor. sound crazy? well, what about this? jackson allegedly said madonna was in love with him and jealous of his success. secrets just out of the blue? the rabbi has a book coming out and in it, more than 300 hours of reported conversations with his former friend, michael jackson. oy vai. that's tonight's "top of the block." turning now from freaky fantasies to possible fraud. this one takes the cake, people. actor randy quaid and his wife

evi arrested for allegedly skipping out on a $10,000 bill they racked up at swanky a ranch in santa barbara. that is one swanky ranch, people. these photos from the resort's website. on monday, the santa barbara sheriff's department issued a warrant for the couple's arrest. yesterday at a traffic stop, caught on camera by, who else, tmz, cops in a west texas town busted the couple. it was not without incident. tmz reports evi was screaming and had to be wrestled to the ground of the the pair tossed in the slammer. look at that mug shot. what's with the beard? what's with that expression? they posted bail hours later, only after a deputy drove them to get cash, $20,000 each. it gets weirder. tmz says randy quaid scrawled a letter especially for the tmz website that said, "texas is a great place to be april rested. i would like to thank the sheriff and deputies for

everything. it was a fabulous arrest. "he seems to think this is all a big joke. quaid also sent tmz a copy of a cashier's check made out to the ranch. you can see it right there, $5,546 and change. that's what the quaids said they owed. wait a minute, a cashier's check for a hotel bill? does that even make any sense? it could be explained by a sworn statement obtained by tmz from a cop who says the quaids checked into the luxury resort using bogus credit cards. furthermore, police say the bill came to a whopping $10,500. meantime, randy claims it's all just a pr stunt on the part of the inn. "issues" called him for comment but we haven't heard back. i want to know what you think about this cuckoo for cocoa puffs celebrity scan tal. straight out to my fantastic panel, lisa bloom, cnn legal am

list. david schwartz, criminal defense attorney. and former new york prosecutor. dr. dale archer, clinical psychiatrist. and in just a moment, we're going to be joined by mike walters, manager with tmz. but first, david schwartz. does randy quaid seem to be thumbing his nose at the law, and if so, isn't he making matters worse for himself? >> well, no, i don't know if he's making matters worse for himself. obviously every criminal defendant shouldn't be speaking about the substance of the case. but jane, we have to remember that he has defenses. he's got the cashier's check. and this has got to be settled in court. >> and he's got a beard. why has he got a beard? that size? >> i can't answer that question. i don't know why he has a beard. >> maybe it's a mistaken identity. he looks like a cross between santa claus and the keep on trucking guy. >> oh, man. the bottom line is -- >> look at this expression.

oh, that's better. but the other expression -- she's out of her mind. >> he has his jacket over his arm. it's crazy. >> we don't know that. come on. let's give them the benefit of the doubt, like every other criminal defendant. they've got defenses. the inn has their side of the story. yes, it's a bizarre situation, but it's got to play out. >> a great mug shot, though. >> all right. joining us now, mike walters, manager for tmz. mike, i'm hearing things on a delay. so if i don't make any sense, you know why. i'm hearing crazy voices in my ear. you guys got ahold of a deputy's sworn statement that contains real shockers. tell us about the total hotel bill, what tmz calls a "sinister plot to fleece some ritzy hotels." >> well, this is what it explains in the documents. basically they went to the biltmore hotel and used their credit card for the night. when the manager said, we can't get authorization on this card,

you have to go or give us something else, they left there, knowing that the card didn't work, and went to the san racidro ranch and tried to use that card. because it's randy quaid, his wife, they're celebrities,inten knew it didn't work. they went over there. over eight days racked up $10,000 in bills. they would make up an excuse. there is a fedex package coming with the credit card. finally they went up to tell them they had to get out and they bolted. they investigated $17,000 in the bel air hotel in l.a. they had been doing this all along. they were charged with three felonies. >> you are saying there is a pattern allegedly. >> i'm only telling you what the sworn statement says allegedly. that is what it says. you know how they found out the two hotels?

the collection agency, the santa barbara went to alliance collections they say we have the same couple down there doing the same thing. >> hold it right there. we have more. look at that beard. okay. you were right. these healthy choice fresh mixer thingys, they taste fresh... say it again! say it like, "mmmm, these healthy choice fresh mixers taste freshh!!" they taste fresh... wait. what are you doing? got it. you're secretly taping me? u know, it wasn't a secret to us, we knew. yes, but it was a secret to me. of course, otherwise i would be sitting like this and completely block his shot. so that's why i was like... didn't you notice this was weird? no. made fresh from your desk, cook it fresh, strain it fresh, mix it fresh. healthy choice fresh mixers, look for it in the soup or pasta aisle. one pack. 6 days. that's elations. new elations. clinically proven to improve joint comfort... in as little as six days. drinking it every day keeps it working. elations has clinically proven levels...

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breaking news tonight. satsuma, florida. a 5-year-old little girl tucked into bed. five hours later she's gone. vanished. the back door propped wide open. daddy comes home from the night shift to find not a trace of little haleigh. bombshell tonight. a letter emerges in the search for haleigh outlining details of a party the night haleigh goes missing. a party fueled by drugs. at the party, misty croslin. with her. little haleigh.

reports that night little haleigh accidentally ingests the heavy-duty painkiller oxycontin and dies. we have the letter. this as new stepmom misty croslin skips town after a bitter fight with haleigh's father ronald cummings. croslin's brother behind bars on a gun charge, leading to another break. in a late-night jailhouse interrogation we learned the brother finally confesses he goes to haleigh's house the night she goes missing, pounds on the door repeatedly. nobody home. phone records confirming ronald cummings tries desperately to reach croslin that night. no answer. where was girlfriend turned stepmother misty croslin during those crucial hours when haleigh goes missing? investigators focusing on a heavily wooded area, draining a local pond in connection with haleigh. as girlfriend turned stepmom misty croslin flunks another

polygraph, tonight where is haleigh? >> okay, sir, let me talk to your wife. let me get some information from her. okay. can i talk to her? >> the the [ bleep ] can you let my daughter -- >> was haleigh cummings the victim of a drug overdose? according to a letter allegedly from one of stepmom/babysitter misty croslin's friends. >> and tonight live to connecticut and the sudden disappearance of a gorgeous young ivy league doctoral student just before she's set to walk down the aisle. the 24-year-old beauty last spotted on grainy surveillance video walking into a yale research building. a false fire alarm mysteriously goes off in the building. people rush out. annie le never seen again. at nearly the exact hour le set to walk down the aisle, wedding dress on a hanger in the closet, flowers ordered, the girl's body

found stuffed in a two-foot wall cable space there in yale's research building. in the early morning hours police storm a super 8 motel to arrest 24-year-old lab tech raymond clark on murder one. tonight, clark's alleged history of stalking, threatening, harassing women resurfaces. his former girlfriend breaking her silence, revealing clark a control freak during their relationship. lashing out, dictating what she says, where she goes. even what she wears. we have the video. in the last hours, investigators back at the crime scene, zeroing in on a basement washroom where mouse cages are cleaned. was this senseless murder over laboratory mice cages? and another twist. was suspect raymond clark fueled by steroids?

>> a former girlfriend claims the man accused of killing a yale university grad student was extremely controlling. >> in a shocking interview with "good morning america" ray clark's ex-girlfriend was so scared of the yale lab tech, telling abc news clark would get very angry, often frighten me. he'd get this little look in his eye, and sometimes it was just better to do what he said. >> he would frighten me. it escalated a lot after -- i mean, with the controlling issue it escalated from there. >> jessica del rocco tells abc's "good morning america" clark told her what clothes she could wear and who she could have as friends. del rocco says clark sometimes got so angry she was frightened. >> in a matter of weeks jessica says clark went from the perfect boyfriend to becoming manipulative, controlling. >> it was anger, yelling. as the relationship progressed,

like if things didn't go his way, then he'd make them go his way. >> good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. bombshell tonight. was 5-year-old haleigh taken to a late-night party fueled by drugs where she ingested the heavy-duty painkiller oxycontin? >> i know i didn't do anything to that little girl. i would never hurt her. i mean, they love me. i mean, they look at me like their mom. >> did haleigh cummings die from an overdose of oxycontin? a letter obtained allegedly from a friend of misty croslin claims that haleigh got her hands on the powerful narcotic while at a party with misty and her friends the night of the disappearance. >> now that you have been told, whether you accept it or not, that your wife has flunked a poly, have you asked her what happened? >> i asked her, but that -- i don't get any answers from her.

>> the letter states that cops were given a sworn affidavit from a friend of misty's, who claims everyone at the party "freaked out" when the toddler overdosed, then put haleigh in a black bag and threw her into a pond nearby. >> look at her body language. there are so many tells that she's not telling the truth. she's saying no when it's supposed to be in the affirmative. a lot of shoulder shrugging. the tears that don't look very genuine. it's very disturbing to watch. >> police are denying any friend has come forward making these allegations and are said to be completely ignoring the letter. all of misty's friends have reportedly been cleared, and there are still no suspects in the case. >> as we go to air, we have just heard from local police who say in fact they are not ignoring this theory, that they have been vetting this theory along with several other theories about what has happened to little haleigh and that many points behind this letter are in fact

credible and they are in fact investigating it. we are taking your calls live. first out to marlaina schiavo, our producer on the story. marlaina, what do you know about this letter? but most important, its contents. was there a party the night haleigh went missing? >> that's what this letter is saying, nancy. this letter came from a girl behind bars who is friends with misty, who's a party friend of misty's, who's saying that misty was with her that night -- or this letter's claiming misty, this girl and some other people were together that night and that haleigh was with them partying -- they were all partying and misty got -- excuse me, haleigh got her hands on oxycontin and ingested it and died and that's when this other friend at the party panicked, put haleigh allegedly in a bag, and threw her in a pond. and that's what this letter is saying. >> now, if the letter is true, i am expected to believe that everybody at this so-called

party has managed to keep their yaps shut for this long? that is the hard part for me. what about it, art harris at artharris.com? what can you tell me? you've been investigating this theory for weeks. >> well, nancy, investigators told me exclusively that this letter was legitimate. got a copy of it right here. and in fact, they are taking it seriously. they did confirm that they talked to this friend of misty's in jail, confronted her with this sworn affidavit of a witness, and that she is denying it, but she wrote her boyfriend in this letter saying don't you remember, we were together that night, as if she wants to make sure she has an alibi. >> to t.j. hart, program and news director wsky 97.3 fm, t.j., what do you make of this theory? did such a party take place? has that much been confirmed? and this letter is from who to whom?

>> i'm not going to mention names. it's from -- >> i don't care about the names. >> but the recipient was indeed her boyfriend. that has been verified. this boyfriend read this to several people over the phone. we had it scan-faxed to us. and that's how we got it. it is legitimate as far as where the letter came from and who it was sent to. now, the party, that has not been confirmed. however, you remember they talked about a pond. well, in that letter they also talked about the black bag being dropped in a pond at the mondex. well, that's exactly where a pond was drained over the weekend. the l pond at the mondex. so there is something to this letter. >> out to the lines, we are taking your calls live. kimberly in washington. hi, kimberly. >> caller: hi, nancy. so nice to finally talk with you. you're my hero, and i watch you every night. >> kimberly, thank you. and thank you for calling in. what is your question, dear? >> caller: you know, i keep on thinking about little junior. he was allegedly there that night.

i know early on in the investigation they said possibly he said there was a man there. i was wondering if police are still questioning him. >> let's go to a special guest joining us tonight, the grandmother of haleigh and of junior. teresa neves is with us. she has staunchly supported misty croslin throughout. miss neves, thank you for being with us. what about junior? have police continued to question him? has he been questioned at all by police? >> he has been questioned, miss nancy. he gave them information the night -- or the morning that this happened. and they're not questioning him now. you know? >> yes. i understand. miss neves, at one point i recall that junior, the little brother, had stated that there were other people in the home that evening. what do you recall about his

statement? >> junior's initial statement to the law enforcement was that he saw a man in black, i believe, was what they said. >> yes. >> and then it changed, you know. but he didn't change it. other people changed it. >> yes. miss neves, what do you make of this letter? do you put any stock in it? >> nancy, i'm like you. i do not think that that many people, with a $70,000 reward, are going to sit at home and not say anything. i do not believe for one second that my granddaughter would take something like that because of the taste of it. just simply for that fact. ( clicking ) ( laughs, click ) when you hear a click, ( clicking ) you know it's closed and secure. that's why hefty food bags click closed.

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in a powerful form that's more absorbable... than joint supplement pills. tastes great. goodbye, horse pills. start your joints on the road to comfort... in one pack, six days. that's elations. the new standard in joint health. you okay? i'm worried about mom. you see how she's been. she keeps repeating and forgetting things. i mean, sometimes she gets irritated easily. she's fine. dad, she's having trouble doing everyday things. dad doesn't seem to think anything's wrong. something's not right. i've never seen her like this before. i spoke to her doctor. she seems to think mom's just getting older. i wasn't sure what to say. i know she's getting worse and i want to do something about it. announcer: go to youcanbetheone.com if you're seeing changes in a loved one that you think could be alzheimer's disease. you'll get screening tools to talk to your doctor about memory, behavior, or everyday problems

you're seeing and help you move closer to a diagnosis. you'll also learn about an alzheimer's prescription treatment option. be the one who makes the most of your time together, go to youcanbetheone.com. was haleigh cummings a victim of an overdose? according to a letter allegedly from one of stepmom/babysitter misty croslin's friends, haleigh died of an overdose of oxycontin and then her body was thrown into a pond. >> i'll do anything to get her back. people think i had something to

do with it. if i knew where she was, we wouldn't be sitting here today. we would have her. >> the letter says police were given a sworn affidavit by a friend of misty's that states misty, haleigh, and a group of friends were partying at one of the friends' homes the night of haleigh's disappearance when haleigh overdosed, the friends panicked, shoved haleigh's body in a black bag and tossed her in a nearby pond. >> crystal, what do you make of the recent developments, the development especially of misty croslin flunking a polygraph? >> well, i've thought all along that she has something to do with it. and now this kind of just proves it. she was the last one to see our daughter and her stories just don't add up. >> police say they are completely ignoring the letter and are denying any existence of this sworn affidavit from misty's friend. reports are all of the friends have been cleared. >> she is still the most important witness in this case. she's the last person to see the children.

>> okay. sir. let me talk to your wife. let me get some information from her. can i talk to her? >> how could you let my daughter [ bleep ]. >> somebody stole my child out of my bed. i came home from work and she was not there. >> i put her to bed about 8:00. and i woke up and she was gone. the back door was wide open. >> do you believe that misty was indeed home and that she's been telling the truth? >> yeah, i believe she's telling the truth. >> what we need is for misty to come down here and tell us the truth. >> i didn't hear anything at all. i mean, i was really exhausted that day, you know. really exhausted. and when i laid down, i guess i was just out. >> i was told, you know, that she went to bed at 10:00. being that exhausted, i think that maybe you could sleep through somebody beating on the door. >> the officer is going to come out there and do what they can.

we can't have him screaming and yelling at the officers, okay? >> straight back out to marlaina schiavo. you have been in the home. what do you think? how far away is that front door from where misty croslin says she was sleeping? could you really not have heard somebody banging on the door if she goes to bed at 10:00 and the brother gets there between 9:30, bangs on the door till 10:00 and then waits for her to get home, no sign of life inside? >> i find it really hard to believe that no one could hear that. the bedroom is in the front of the house. eight, maybe ten feet away from that room. and nancy, remember, this is a trailer. it's not a big place. it's not soundproof. and if he's banging away like the cops say he was, there's no way she couldn't have heard that. >> we are taking your calls live. let's unleash the lawyers. joining me tonight out of new york, family law attorney susan moss.

also with us tonight out of atlanta, defense attorney renee rockwell. and also in new york defense attorney, former federal prosecutor doug burns. sue moss, what about it? >> did he really go to the trailer door, or was this just some folklore? i mean, if he was at the trailer door, there's no way she was in that trailer. there's no way she could have slept through this. there's no way the kids could have slept through him banging on the doors. somebody is lying, and that's the key to this case. >> to renee rockwell, i want to get back to this letter. this letter that has been written by a woman who is now incarcerated. what do you make of it? whenever i find out a letter -- hey, art, was this letter written from the jailhouse, art harris? >> sure was. it was written from the jailhouse, nancy, and she asks him to "send me some money." >> okay. didn't ask you that. but thanks for the nugget.

renee rockwell, i'm always suspicious since i've gotten so many letters from the jailhouse all over the country. when i was prosecuting, i always wonder if there's an angle. what do they want? what do they want? what's the motive? that's a problem. >> nancy, you can't always talk about and trust a snitch from the jail. but this is not anything that someone from the jail is trying to go to the police with and make a deal with and get a free pass out of jail. this is a letter that has arisen and has emerged and was not necessarily for the eyes of the police. so you've got -- >> that's a good point. >> -- to give a little more trust to a letter like that. >> to doug burns, former prosecutor turned defense attorney. doug, listen. i've used jailhouse rats on the stand before. >> yep. >> if i believe them and if i could corroborate what they had to say. and renee makes a good point. this is not a letter this woman sends trying to get a deal, trying to get a sweetheart deal. this is to her boyfriend asking for some money. this has nothing to do with any ulterior motive. >> exactly right. but the most important point you just made is you can use this as a great source as long as you

can corroborate it. the police can go through every little detail and hopefully there will be kernels of information in there that lead to additional roads, and that's where it can be really good. and as you said at the beginning, and you're right, you can use these witnesses but you've got to corroborate them. >> well, sometimes you've got to go to hell to get the witness to put the devil in jail, unfortunately. to caryn stark, psychologist joining us in our new york studios, caryn, weigh in. >> well, i'll tell you, nancy, it sounds so suspicious. and if you take a look at the grandmother who's supporting misty, that also doesn't make a lot of sense compared to her own mother, who doesn't seem to be supporting her. so there's so much confusion, and it's very hard to piece this apart -- >> but i find it important that teresa neves, who's her paternal grandmother, supports misty croslin. where her own blood mother doesn't. to me that speaks volumes in misty croslin's favor. >> well, i don't know about that. because usually parents stand by their children. i mean, take a look at casey anthony.

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i want to get to the bottom of what happened. i don't know if hypnosis is going to do it. they've already tried to hypnotize -- >> are you of the mind that you should try anything? >> absolutely. if that's what we need to, do then that's what we can do. >> i'm trying to do everything to find her, you know, answer any questions i have to. because i know i didn't do anything to that little girl. >> here's the back screen door. the one that was propped open

with the cinder block. okay? now, if you see, when it closed, it slams. it makes a loud noise. but if you leave this door, this slowly closes as well. >> i just want everybody to know that i didn't do anything with that little girl. i love her like she's my own. >> straight out to the lines. katie in north carolina. hi, katie. >> caller: hi. i was curious because when tommy came by the door had to be locked but when misty woke up it was open. so was the lock broken? i mean, how did the door get unlocked? >> good question. marlaina schiavo, what can you tell us? you've actually tested out the door. >> well, the door tommy was knocking on was the front door. the door that was propped open was the side door. so the lock was not -- the lock wasn't broken. it just -- the door was just propped open. >> out to the lines. tracy, ohio. hi, tracy. >> caller: hi, nancy. i just love you. >> thank you, tracy in ohio. i've got to tell you, i could use that love tonight. i've been up since 4:30 this

morning with the twins. they're wearing mommy ragged, but i tell you, when i take a look at this story and i think about ronald cummings, teresa neves never seeing their daughter and granddaughter for all these months, maybe never again, they can wake me up every morning at 4:30 for the rest of my life. i'm just so grateful. what is your question, dear? >> caller: my question, nancy, is i wanted to know if there was a party that misty was at with haleigh, would there -- would the other people involved in that party be involved in this too? would they be charged? >> good question. sue moss, renee rockwell, doug burns, again, i've got to reiterate. it's very difficult for me to believe that a bunch at a drug party can keep their pie holes shut this many months, although maybe they think they could be implicated or, renee rockwell, i could see a scenario where there had been a party, maybe haleigh was in the car, maybe she came in to one of the rooms, maybe everyone didn't see her. there are a lot of scenarios where this could in fact be legitimate.

>> legitimate? well, i can say this, nancy. if there was a party and there were illegal drugs or even if they were prescribed but they were left out for a 5-year-old to come in contact with and eat and then die of an overdose, i can absolutely see the whole bunch of them being charged with at least a negligent homicide. >> out to the lines. mary jo in florida. hi, mary jo. >> caller: hey, friend. i'm a big fan of the show. thanks for what you do. >> and thank you for calling in, dear. what's your question? >> caller: i have a two-part question. i was wondering what misty was wearing when ronald got home. was she in pajamas or was she in jeans and -- >> good question. >> caller: and then how much time in between when she allegedly woke up and ronald got home? >> teresa neves, this is haleigh's paternal grandmother. what was she wearing when ronald

got home? >> she was wearing a little pajama top and boxer shorts. >> miss neves, just hearing you upset, we're all throwing around legal theories and this letter and whether it's true or not. what is your message tonight? >> i believe haleigh is alive. i have faith in god to take care of my baby girl and find her. and i don't care who had something to do with it. those are the people who need to be put away and bring my baby girl home. >> miss neves, why are you so sure haleigh is still with us? >> because i stand on god's promise that if you pray and believe that he will give you what you pray for. >> miss neves, tell me how

ronald is holding up. i mean, he comes on our show frequently, and he's always so strong. how is he holding up? >> he's not as strong at home as he is on tv. but he has to be strong for junior. you know? so he does the best that he can. he keeps his crying to his self at night and just tries to make junior happy until haleigh comes home. >> how is junior? does he even realize at this juncture that haleigh is gone? >> junior thinks that haleigh is lost and she's finding her way home. he actually drew her a map so she could find her way home. but he doesn't realize the longevity, i think, of it. >> you know, i focus so much on where is haleigh, what happened

that night. you know, junior has been lost in the mix. i cannot imagine, god forbid, the thought that i would ever have to explain to one of the twins where the other one was, why they were not at home. what do you tell him? >> the angels are watching haleigh and she'll be home soon. >> miss neves, when you hear about, for instance, this letter -- >> yes, ma'am. >> -- how does that affect you? whether you believe it or don't believe it. when you hear there might be a break in the case. >> miss nancy, we would love to have a break in this case, and we really would not care who it implicates as long as it brings haleigh back to us.

you know, this letter is a little farfetched, i think, because haleigh doesn't like medicine and oxycontin, i've had to take it. i think it's a very nasty taste. and i can't imagine haleigh taking it. so -- but you know, anything that would bring haleigh home, that's what we want. >> with me is teresa neves. this is haleigh's paternal grandmother. miss neves, you stand very strongly behind misty croslin's story. what do you make of police saying that she has the answers? >> i have to leave the investigative part of this to law enforcement because, you know, if i go with every whim and every accusation, then i'm going to be flipping back and forth in my life and, you know, what we stand -- you know, we just stand for haleigh here. we just want haleigh to come home. and i want them to find whoever

this is, and i don't care who it is. but we want haleigh to come home. >> we are taking your calls live. with me is teresa neves, haleigh's grandmother. out to lynn in alabama. hi, lynn. >> caller: hi, nancy. i love your show. >> thank you, dear. >> caller: thank you for everything you do. >> what is your question? >> caller: if misty cummings' brother went to the house that night when no one was home, are his fingerprints, have they checked the brick for fingerprints or on the door to the trailer? >> art harris, what do we know? >> no fingerprints on the door. but they found a fist, a bloody fist print when ronald was so upset he punched the door as hard as he could, nancy. >> everyone, i want to give you the tip line again.

it is 888-277-tips. 888-277-8477. there is a $70,000 reward in connection with the haleigh cummings disappearance. $70,000 for information about haleigh cummings. and i want to remind miss neves as we go to break that while we are all throwing around legal theories and arguing the evidence please know that not a day passes that you and your family are not in prayers and thoughts and especially little haleigh. everyone, as we go to break, tonight's safety tips. it's about choking. it can be a life-threatening emergency, especially if it's a child. every second counts. look for signs of choking. when someone turns blue, of course, grabbing at their throat, unable to breathe, cry, make noise. and try the heimlich maneuver immediately. if the throatway still isn't clear, call 911, of course. if unconscious, begin cpr. parents and caregivers should be

trained in cpr and the heimlich. also, beware of toys or tiny items that can be swallowed. don't let young children eat foods that are choking risks. toddlers can swallow things without chewing them. serve food in small manageable bites. if your child has a cough or trouble breathing or swallowing after a choking episode, take them to the doctor. and remember, the way you treat a child choking is different from how you treat an adult. you'll learn that in child cpr. for more information go to normore's kids health at kidshealth.org. want to know how fast it took my stiff joints to feel better?

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police looking into whether clark's attitude may have led to a deadly confrontation. >> annie le was strangled to death in the lab where she worked. clark, who also worked there, is charged with doing it and then trying to hide her body behind a wall in the lab's basement. >> apparently, he was very concerned about how people kept their mice, their cages. there have been some reports that he got very upset when people wouldn't wear plastic booties into the lab or when people wouldn't keep their cages clean. >> as i got to know him, i quickly discovered, i just jogged it as a mental memory that he was controlling, and i was going to stay away from him. >> i thought he was a control freak. >> co-workers tell police he was a control freak. he was also territorial when it came to the lab and the mice he took care of. >> jessica del rocco telling abc news clark would get very angry, "often frighten me." >> he would get very angry you know, often.

>> very angry. frighten you? >> yeah, he would frighten me. >> you are seeing raymond clark's former girlfriend, jessica del rocco, on abc's "good morning america." out to jean casarez, legal correspondent "in session." these are pretty stunning developments. also, we learned police back at the scene today. >> that's right. new haven police, they went back to the lab building. the building is open for research and investigation. they, though, went down to the basement. they went to a washroom, nancy. and it had lab technicians right in it. asked them to get out. cordoned it off as a crime scene, saying they were looking for what could be potentially important evidence. >> i want to go to rupa mikkilineni, our producer on the

story. rupa, the girlfriend, the former girlfriend that speaks out saying that clark, when she was with him, was manipulative, controlling, but how did the relationship start off? >> the relationship started out, according to jessica del rocco, very sweet. he was very charming, kind, sweet, took her out to dinner. but then it progressed over a period of three months where he became more and more controlling, nancy, and would tell her what to do, would tell her what to wear, how to act, when to speak, when not to speak. >> you know, to you, dr. caryn stark, psychologist, telling her what friends to have, what to wear. he said, you talk too softly, you breathe too loudly. >> well, it's typical of somebody who's a control person, nancy, that he feels out of control inside, so he needs to control everything around him, including the person he's with. and somebody who's like that with a woman doesn't feel good about himself as a man. so he keeps trying to refine her and get her to be the way he thinks she should be. >> so how does that fit into this case, mike brooks?

>> nancy, i think what they might be trying to show is a pattern of prior behavior. you know, if this is -- is this the way he was there? is this the way his controlling -- his controllingness was in the lab with all these ph.d. candidates, with the people that came across him? i think that's exactly what they're trying to do, is to show a pattern of behavior leading up to this alleged murder. >> but you know what, to thomas kaplan, the editor in chief of the "yale daily news," it's our understanding that behind bars raymond clark has clammed up. we're not going to learn a lot from him. he's not talking. not to anybody. >> that's true. he hasn't spoken, even before his arrest, when police initially talked to him, he failed a polygraph according to reports and clammed up at that point. and from what we've been told he has not spoken to the authorities since then. so that's why the motive here is such a mystery. >> back to jean casarez with "in session," jean, now the possibility of steroid use is rearing its ugly head. >> this is interesting. the "national enquirer" actually is reporting --

>> wait a minute, take a look at those guns this guy's sporting in court. >> i saw them. >> complete with the tattoo around them to really show them off. >> i saw them. and what the "national enquirer" is reporting is that raymond clark was taking steroids possibly. and you remember the chris benoit case, the wrestler that murdered his wife, baby, and himself. he had ten times the amount of testosterone. it was said at that point it was steroid overdose. you can have a situation where you have anger management issues and impulsiveness. >> out to the lines, kathy in wisconsin. hi, kathy. i just love your show. we already have your book. i have a question. even though the murder occurred in the basement with animal smells and chemical smells, i find it strange that no one smelled a dead body in four or five days. >> i find that odd, too, dr. joshua perper. what do you make of that? the decomposition. how quickly would it take place? >> usually, the body starts to decompose immediately, but it

becomes evident by smell within a day or a couple of day. and i understand here there were three days. the only explanation would be that the area in which the body was pushed in was somewhat closed, in other words, was not open to the remainder of the room and, again, the other smells in the room also masked the -- whatever odor could have come out of that particular location. >> everyone, we are taking your calls live. but quickly, to tonight's amber alert. the search for a missing 12-year-old texas girl believed to be in extreme danger. karla yrigoyen-rivas, last seen tuesday laredo, texas, kidnapped by suspect 28-year-old jose giovanni cruz. the 12-year-old victim five feet, 100 pounds, black hair, brown eyes, wearing a white blouse and blue jeans, black sandals. suspect, 5'6", 200 pounds, bald,

brown eyes, skull and medusa tattoos to the right arm and leg. please, help us find this girl. take a look. if you have info, call 956-795-2800 and a happy birthday to georgia friend of the show, virginia gunn. she loves watching with her four wiener dogs. rascal, pixie, and isabella. news junkie, loves eating fried chicken for breakfast and dinner. happy birthday for beautiful v.g.

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