breaking news tonight. a $1 million mansion, a tv deal, personal stylists, a fleet of luxury cars, beautiful people, eight beautiful children. they had it all. tonight, allegations of daddy siphoning the very last drop of the family's money to support all his girlfriends and his lavish lifestyle. siphoning to the tune of $250,000. allegations of illegal wiretappi wiretapping, phone taps, bank account, computer surveillance by daddy, a known computer

specialist. charges of drug use, x-rated sleepovers with a female bartender daddy allegedly hired to babysit in the home with the children asleep upstairs. and that's the tip of the iceberg. bombshell tonight -- just hours ago gosselin in court claiming wife kate secretly stashing $1 million. and after gosselin rides that gravy train for years, putting his children on tv, now claiming he no longer wants them "exposed." is that because the show's now "kate plus 8," not "jon & kate plus eight"? both tell the judge the other's a deadbeat, welching on child support. the judge brings down the hammer. didn't we all know it would end in court someday? is daddy headed to the big house? >> what happened today?

>> i don't know. i've never been in court before. >> are you going to provide the accounting that the arbitrator says, kate? >> there's kate's side. she says jon took $230,000 out of a joint account. >> you've left your children and their mother unable to pay for the roof over their head. it's not acceptable. >> jon claims he only took $22,000 out. >> she's making claims that she can't back up. if she said i took $230,000, where's the bank statement to prove it? it's he said/she said -- >> no. no. no. it is not a he said/she said. >> he can't tell us his last withdrawal? >> is the money going to go back to the accounts, jon? did you guys talk about that at all? >> you can't have it both ways. you can't make all this money putting your kids on tv and now when she's making the money say uh-uh, uh-uh -- >> it's not about the money. it's about getting my kids off tv -- >> why was it okay when you did it? >> because i wasn't -- i feel

now empowered -- >> broke? >> no. i'm not broke. i'm not broke at all. >> and tonight mommy at a local l.a. bus stop waiting for the bus. her 3-year-old little boy asleep beside her. the bus pulls up, mommy gets on, drives away, leaving baby alone at the bus stop. she never comes back. sex predators, stalkers, dope addicts. who knows who'd show up on the next bus? but mommy didn't care. she just kept on riding. los angeles police are investigating the case of a 3-year-old boy abandoned at a bus stop in the middle of the night whose mother is now missing. 3-year-old xavier nelson was left by an unidentified woman at a south los angeles bus stop after midnight on friday. >> lapd released this video to the media in hopes someone would

recognize this toddler. and someone did. mother called her from the southland saying she saw her grandson on tv. >> my heart dropped. i was about to cry. not just because i saw him. because of the story that they were telling. >> a witness observed the child sitting next to a woman when the bus arrived. the woman then got onto the bus and left the child behind. the witness yelled to the woman to tell her she forgot the boy, but the woman just waved him off. >> angela says the last time she saw her daughter, victoria nelson, and grandson xavier was a week ago. >> the grandmother says 17-year-old victoria may be in danger and could have been forced to abandon her child. >> victoria would never, ever put her child in harm's way like that. she would never do that. unless there was a reason and the reason was somebody has caused harm on her. >> good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. $250,000 gone. allegations of illegal wiretapping, hacking into bank

accounts, cell phones, claims of x-rated sleepovers with the eight children asleep upstairs? "jon & kate plus eight." it had to end in court. >> all eyes on a montgomery county, pennsylvania courtroom where these charges kate gosselin has brought forward -- >> he took $230,000 of the $231,000 that we have liquid. and i have a stack of bills in my purse i can't drop in the mail. >> she claims we don't have money? she has 11 other bank accounts. she made $1 million off her book. for her to call me a criminal by stealing money, that she thinks i stole, i mean, it's just -- it's gotten so ridiculous. >> there are very good aspects of being a control freak. i persevere. i will not lay down and die. >> i took less than 10%. less than 10% since march till now. less than 10%. where is the $2 million? $2 million. >> what's important is the children, and not these two self-absorbed husband and wife who argue constantly in front of their children.

>> exactly. that's why they're coming off -- >> that's why the show is -- >> why don't you stop arguing and work on your marriage? >> exactly. >> wouldn't that be a better idea? >> the abysmal behavior on the part of both of these parents and particularly jon is revictimizing these children on a regular basis. the whole world's watching this thing absolutely aghast. >> please, people, stop interfering in our lives. we know what's best. >> do you feel he's abandoning his kids by moving to new york city? >> i don't understand why he's not living down the street. if he's got to get a divorce, if you two can't work it out, why do you want to move away to new york and be that far away from your children? >> why do you feel like you need to be in new york and -- >> i'm in new york because i have business in new york, i have contacts in new york. i'm proceeding to do other career things. i mean, if i had to buy a hotel room, no one's footing the bill for that. it's expensive enough. i have to move further with my career to afford my kids as well. >> do you think joint custody will work for jon and kate? >> i hope it does because even if we disapprove of the way he's behaved, those children love him

and they need their father. >> both parties in court just hours ago, and it ain't pretty. straight to maxine paige, senior news editor, radaronline. what happened? >> they met at judge arthur tilson's quarters, and they met privately. jon was ordered to pay back $180,000 that he'd taken from their joint savings account, and kate was ordered to account for $55,000 that she took that she says was for household bills and expenses. >> so let me get this straight. unleash the lawyers. susan moss, raymond giudice, richard herman. he is ordered to pay back nearly $200,000, and she is ordered to account for money. what about it, sue moss? >> return the cash or face a backlash. look, when you start off a case by stealing money, everyone thinks you're a stealer. this was the worst possible move for jon, not only pr world but also in terms of his divorce custody because no one's going

to trust him. no one's going to trust his word. and no one's going to trust his actions. >> back to maxine page, senior news editor, radaronline.com. maxine, so he's ordered to pay back the 180 grand. did he try to explain to the judge why he took the money? >> he said that it amounted to his paycheck, that he hasn't withdrawn any money and it's basically what's owed for the work that he's done with tlc. >> jane velez-mitchell, host of hln's "issues," author of "i want," jane, what can you tell me? >> well, the big question, nancy, is does he still have the 180 grand? we know he lives a very lifestyle. he has two fancy cars, a bmw and a mercedes. he also has a bachelor pad that's kind of expensive. he also has flown across the pond. he's been in the south of france, popping champagne. he has girlfriends. he has a very lavish "lifestyles of the rich & famous" kind of lifestyle. so if he's blown the money, how will he get it back? because if he doesn't return it,

he will be held in contempt of court. >> what about it, clark goldband? >> he's struck back in his own court filing, saying kate is hiding at least $1 million worth of the family's money and he wants to know where it is. jon gosselin also saying kate hasn't paid over $7,500 per month in child support for some months and he wants to know where she's been spending her money. >> okay. let me get this straight. back to you, maxine page. so both of them have to pay $7,500 a month child support? the mom and the dad both have to pay child support, correct? >> correct. they pay it into a joint account. and then they draw the household expenses from that account. >> we are taking your calls live. but first i want to introduce a special guest joining us tonight. she's joining us from cnbc. it's suze orman. financial expert, best-selling author. i can't say enough about her. you can see her every saturday

night, cnbc. suze, what should they have done? other than allegedly bringing home the bartender and sleeping with her upstairs while the children are somewhere else and buying the girlfriend a porsche suv. things like that. just the obvious. you can skip over that. but what should they have done so this would not end in court? and suze orman, i don't understand. to me it's a simple matter. you bring in the checks and you say see, i've been paying my child support. why are we having to argue about this? >> here's the thing. when it comes to money, when you're in a state of hate, nancy, people do absurd things. they do not do logical things. they never will. so the truth of the matter is for the people watching this right now on some level i actually don't care what jon -- what they all do. i care what the people in america are going to do with their own money. and they need to look at this as an example. you need to set up separate accounts. you need to have a joint account. but you can never put yourself

in a position where somebody can take money from your account. and if you set up an account as joint tenants with right of survivorship, one person can rob the other account totally clean. it doesn't matter. so don't do that to people. >> suze, what about all the confusion? i've got a checking, a savings, and a college fund for the twins. boom. why do they have 12 accounts between them? >> well, first of all, they have eight children, correct? >> right. >> now, the real thing is how do we know that the money that those kids earned -- because those kids earned money, nancy. where is that money? that money should actually be celt up in such a way, truthfully, one for each kid, that neither jon nor kate could take it out without both signatures. >> i've learned my lessons. i know i made mistakes. i'm apologizing for them now on national television. because i am a public figure. i realize that now. that i do have to apologize to

the public as well as to kate and to my kids. when i get home, i will apologize to her.

every night hln's nancy grace brings you real drama straight from the courtroom. >> every lawyer has a different version of what they would think justice is. >> tnt mondays. "raising the bar" is all new. >> to me justice is a jury, rendering a verdict that speaks the truth. >> do you trust him? because that's what this case comes down to. >> stephen bochco's "raising the bar." mondays at 10:00 on tnt. and pick up nancy's new book, "the eleventh victim," available now wherever books are sold. how was it seeing kate in the court? >> you're clenching your jaw, jon. >> it's because it's cold out. >> why is this always about you? why are we talking about you? she asked you about your children. >> i don't know. i just -- i just thought, you know, you needed -- >> well, it's a good place to start. >> i did not take $230,000. i took $22,000. i have nothing to hide. >> the tabloid and the whole

media mess always makes it worse than it is. >> for years, jon, you had your children on tv on a reality show, but suddenly when it's no longer "jon & kate plus eight," it's "kate plus eight," you suddenly have a problem with it and you want it to all come to an end, and i don't believe that. >> regardless of the timing, i'm their father, and i will do what's best for my children. >> i know that personally for myself and the kids this has been a good experience. it continues to be a good experience. >> the timing is irrelevant -- >> oh, you've got your lawyer here? you're afraid to answer questions? whatever. >> remember, the kids are just playing in front of the cameras. >> now she's thinking that the american public's going to believe her over me? i had to defend myself in that. >> if you two can't work it out, why do you want to move away to new york and be that far away from your children? >> why do you feel like you need to be in new york and -- >> i'm in new york because i have business in new york, i have contacts in new york, i'm proceeding to do other career things. i mean first, had to buy a hotel room, no one's flipping the bill for that. >> we have a corporate account,

what she's talking about, and we have a housing account. both have checking and savings. the corporate account is where my tlc paycheck goes to, and every week i withdraw from that account. just like anyone else would. i have the proof right here that i only took $22,000. which is my paycheck. in arbitration she was supposed to account for $470,000 that she hasn't accounted for. so she disobeyed a court order. she claims we don't have money? she has 11 other bank accounts. she made a million dollars off her book. let me also say that i pay $7,500 per month for the kids, utilities, two mortgages, and everything else that needs to be paid. and she's not even talking about that account. >> what he failed to mention is that she's paying the same amount of child support that he is and not only that, suze orman, financial guru on cnbc, best-selling author, did you see him just then?

tell mary hart, who was so not believing it, did you see her going mm-hmm, uh-huh, he just said i only took 25,000 when a judge -- >> from his corporate account. from his corporate account. >> and the judge ordered him today to pay back 180,000. >> so here's the point. you look at this man. obviously, we could all think whatever we want to think about him. but there was a point, nancy, when kate looked at him and said i love you, i love you, i trust you, let's have babies together. and that's true with everybody throughout the united states. you look at somebody, you say i love you and you trust them. i'm telling you, everybody watching us right now, don't think this can't happen to you. not to the magnitude of what you see happening with jon and kate. but you have got to know where your money is. you have to have separate accounts. you have to really have an understanding so that this can never happen to you. because jon can be anybody that you know, believe it or not. >> okay. we're taking your calls live.

but first take a look at what kate had to say on nbc "today." >> the last thing i wanted was to do this show and end up not being able to pay my bills. so i put money aside, willingly brought it forward and split it with him when we had our meeting. so he took the $50,000 and did whatever with it. i paid bills with my $50,000. and once the court arbitrator stepped in, i felt like the money -- i had to put it back. i didn't feel like it would be safe, to be honest. and -- >> straight to the lines. to brenda in utah. hi, brenda. >> caller: hi. thank you for taking my call. >> thank you for calling in, dear. what's your question? >> caller: well, i don't like either one of them, but i do think people are being a lot nicer to her than they are to him. i think they're both despicable. but do the children have guardian ad litem to protect them? >> excellent question. let's go back to the lawyers, sue moss, raymond giudice,

richard herman. what about it, herman? i have heard nothing about a guardian ad litem being appointed for the children simply for their interests. >> i haven't heard, either. and they have to have one because they're generating fees based on the program. so there has to be some sort of guardian ad litem. but these two train wrecks, nancy, i believe they stage this, they survive on publicity. he's going to put the money back. they're in the news today. they're going to generate money. this is the only way they could generate money. they have no skills. they have no talent. this is it. >> giudice? >> well, i agree with richard. and i also agree with miss orman. there should have been trust accounts set up for these children's education, future, not just random checking accounts where there's not some -- >> put the lawyers up. put the lawyers up. i notice that both of you defense lawyers, neither one of you are tackling the potential criminal charges -- >> he walked out of court on his own. he's going to pay that back. if he doesn't, he may have criminal contempt. can't steal your own money. >> i was saying before i was rudely interrupted.

of hacking into cell phone accounts, computer accounts, checking accounts -- >> allegations. >> -- text messaging. to mike brooks. wouldn't that qualify as a felony? >> it depends on the law in the particular state, nancy. it may. it may not. they are husband and wife. it's not like it's boyfriend-girlfriend stalking each other. >> jon and kate need to go into therapy and learn to quit arguing and set a good example for the children. >> how do you feel? do you feel like your kids need therapy? are you seeing any problems? >> well, i'm not a professional. but the hardest thing i ever did was tell them that we're getting a divorce.

do you want it to stop or do you want it to continue? do you want everything to be drudged up and embarrassing for your kids and embarrassing for you? please, kate, just let's get off of television and go mediate. what's the big deal? what's there to hide? >> my true nature is to freak out about everything. everything's a big drama. everything -- >> and he's saying that directly into a tv camera. to dr. joseph del tito, professor of psychiatry, doctor, what do you make of it? >> well, these people wouldn't be on the menu if the audience didn't have an appetite for them. and i think the more interesting thing is -- >> so you're blaming the audience? i didn't ask you for a commentary on america. i asked you about -- >> okay. what do i think about them? i think these are lowlife people without -- >> professionally. >> professionally, it's unclear to say that they're people who have formal personality disorders. but people get caught up in the celebrity. money often corrupts. this whole situation has become

corrupted by people who have let it happen, although with tremendous societal forces behind them. and it's unfortunate for the children. in fact, it's criminal for the children. and i consider it child abuse. >> now, why do you consider this child abuse? >> because what's going to happen to these kids? they go to school. they have cousins. they have friends. how are they going to be treated? who's going to tell them about daddy's girlfriend? who's going to make fun of them because of something that their mother does? this is going to follow them throughout their whole life. or at least, let's say, the next 10 or 20 years in all likelihood. this isn't good. >> my kids are coming off tv. i'm not the bad guy here. i'm the one trying to protect my children. that's called being a parent. i'm protecting my children. i need to pull them off of television so we can work this out. ddddddddddddd

they love the camera crew. they love all those guys. they make nicknames for them. you know, the p.a.s, the production assistants there. they play with the kids. we all get along and play together. and it's like a family environment. that's how we work together. it's comfortable for the kids to film. that way there's no animosity. i mean, that's the way it is. >> you put your children on television for years but now suddenly you stick a sign on the house that says you can't film

here anymore? is it because it used to be "jon & kate plus eight" but now it's "kate plus eight" and you're not making any more money? >> absolutely not. i will always make money, and i'm not doing it for the money. i'm doing it to restore family values. i'm -- >> say what? >> i'm doing it to restore family values. i want to -- >> i never thought i'd hear gosselin say he's restoring family values. now, that's a whole other nut to crack. but it's not just a poster anymore. both sides in court just hours ago duking it out in front of a judge, and gosselin files a cease and desist order to tlc to stop filming. i want to go to dr. laura jana, pediatrician, author of "heading home with your newborn: from birth to reality." we see the children acting out more and more. what effect is this having on them? >> you know, nancy -- excuse my lack of voice here. but i certainly have something to say. you know, i think suze said it best. these poor children are living in a state of hate now. and that's never a good

environment for children to be raised in. when we're talking about signs that may -- you know, we may see with the children, acting out is certainly one of them. some physical signs, headaches, stomach aches, problems with eating and sleeping. all those things can be the result of the stress that comes with living in that hateful environment. >> out to the lines. crystal in massachusetts. hi, crystal. >> caller: hi, nancy. i'm so honored to be finally getting through to speak to you. >> well, crystal, i'm honored that you called in. thank you. what's your question, dear? >> caller: actually, i have a comment and a question. my comment is basically it's amazing to me that they have this type of money to be even arguing about from showing their kids on tv. and i do think it's going to be horrible for them as they get older. but my question is in court is it actually -- did it have to be proven to the judge where these children's money is? i would think that would be important to the judge. >> i agree. out to child advocate susan moss. explain. >> absolutely. that's probably not coming up in

the first instance because they've got some emergencies to deal with, aka the missing money and getting the missing money back. but as this case progresses, what the judge is going to do, or in this case the arbitrator, is going to look to see what happened to the children's money. is it being segregated? is it being wrongfully included with the parents' money? and if that is in fact the case, then you're really going to see some criminal prosecution. >> to jane velez-mitchell, hln host of "issues." jane, he said to my face that he had business in new york. you know, apartments in new york, a tiny apartment that's this big is about the same amount that you would pay in other cities for a four-bedroom, three-bath with a back yard, with a while picket fence around it. so he has a new york apartment, a nice -- a nice crash pad. all right? it's a pretty good crib there. so what business? what business does he have? what job does he have?

he's not on the show anymore. >> he doesn't have a job, and they've stopped taping. and of course you saw that sign, that infamous sign, where it's like you're not going to tape here, tlc. and i think that's the whole essence of this struggle, is that he doesn't want to be cut out from the show. so -- >> cut out from the money. >> he's using his kids as a bargaining tool to either get a payoff or get back on the show. that's my theory. >> to senior news editor radaronline.com, maxine page, i do know he is making a multitude of personal appearances for money. in fact, this past weekend he was at millions of milkshakes. it's a milkshake stand in west hollywood. i believe they've named a milkshake after him. now, maxine, take my word for it. he did not show up for free. >> oh, there's no way he was there for free. he's been turning up all over the place. he's been in vegas. it's a media blitz. i think it's one of the main reasons that kate's lawyer has filed for alimony and child support because they want to

know where this money's going. >> now, it's my understanding also, clark goldband, he's also on the story, that he wants alimony from her. you know, that's pretty uncommon that the man gets alimony from the mother. >> that's exactly right, nancy. and in fact, we're talking about money that jon says he's owed and hasn't been paid over some months. jon gosselin also saying that in fact all the money is not being accounted for. and nancy, he is really honing in on small details against kate in his latest court filing where he strikes back, in fact even saying kate owes 60,000 from this, took 5,000 from this. so really going after her tit for tat. >> to samantha, south carolina. hi, samantha. >> caller: hi, nancy. >> what's your question, dear? >> caller: i was wondering -- my question is on kate, how she went on the "today show" and complained that she couldn't pay for her bills. how could she not make enough money to pay her bills, even with the $230,000 missing?

>> suze orman, could it be true? >> it could be true. but i just don't think so. i think she was being incredibly dramatic there. she only has $1,000 left and she couldn't even pay the bills that were in her purse. oh, give me a break. she has many accounts. she has said so. don't tell me that she didn't have money somewhere to be able to pay those bills. but it sure made great tv, didn't it? >> sarah in virginia. hi, sarah. >> caller: hi, nancy. >> hi, dear. what's your question? >> caller: yes. i've watched this show, jon and kate, all the time. and everybody's down on jon. has everybody forgot about how she mistreated jon all through that show? >> you know what, sarah? i've had a lot of people bring that up. but my concern, sarah, is not who was the good guy or the bad guy in the marriage. all right? my concern is is there criminal

wrongdoing and will all this jiggering of the money somehow affect the children? and my guess is it will. you know, i'll give it to you, sarah in virginia. she was not always nice to him. there. does that change anything? you're seeing video of "jon & kate plus eight" on tlc. i want to talk about, very quickly, mike brooks, former fed with the fbi, headline, hln law enforcement analyst. i want to talk about how he could have -- and he is an i.t., information technologist, was for the state of pennsylvania. so he's no idiot. how can someone thak into a computer -- they're separated. they're divorcing. it's not like they're man and wife living together even more. and i don't know if even then you can lawfully hack into somebody else's e-mail, cell phone, checking account. but how do you do that? he gets an e-mail notification every time she gets an e-mail,

sends an e-mail. he knows about all of her texts. at least that's what one of his girlfriends claims he told her. >> exactly. that's a claim. but nancy, he had her sign on let's say her cell phone number which also would include the text messaging. he can go in, take a look at the calls, how long they lasted, look at the text messaging, on where the text came, how long that lasted. and back and forth. and then do a little bit of searching. it doesn't take much. on the number, he can find out who she's talking to. now, it's going to be difficult to see exactly what was said unless you get a subpoena and go to that particular carrier. but you know, when it comes to the bank accounts, he's an i.t. you can go in and just over and over again look for different passwords. a lot of people are good at figuring that out, and if he is an i.t. specialist -- >> just let me stop you, mike. >> sure. >> what the claim is that he could read all of her e-mails and her text messages. now, how is that possible? >> he can go in and manipulate

the account to say okay and -- basically clone it. basically clone the account so he gets notified and blind copied and she'd never know it. >> out to lee in virginia. hi, lee. >> caller: thank you for taking my call. long-time fan. >> thank you for calling in, dear. >> caller: i am calling in because i'm curious. i know this is a reality-type show, but do the children fall under the jackie cooingn law to protect their assets from their parents? >> excellent question. what do we know about that, raymond giudice? how can they be protected financially in court? >> nancy, earlier it was talked about a guardian ad litem and i threw out the idea of trust accounts for these children. the difference in the jackie cooingn case is when he was a child actor his contracts paid him and the parents wasted and squandered the money. i don't know if the children under the contracts are direct recipients of any money. >> what about it, herman? >> i think he's right on, nancy. right on the point. right there. >> you're supposed to be a defense attorney.

what do you have to say in defense of jon and kate? >> what i'm saying is aren't your hard-working fans nauseated how much money these people make? it's unbelievable. >> if you listen to your heart and do what's right. she needs to break away from tlc, be her own person, speak from her heart, be the kind person that i know she can be, and let's work this thing out.

police have identified a 3-year-old boy abandoned at a los angeles bus stop and are now working to locate the child's mother, who's missing. little xavier nelson was left at a bus stop around 12:40 a.m. friday night. a witness told cops a woman was sitting next to the boy but when a bus arrived the woman hopped on board, leaving behind the 3-year-old. the witness told cops he yelled to the woman to tell her she forgot the child but the woman just waved him off. now police are desperate to find this woman, who they identify as the child's parent or caregiver. the boy's grandmother says the

child's mother, 17-year-old victoria nelson, may be in danger and may have been forced to abandon her son. the grandmother says she hasn't seen her daughter, victoria, in over a week. >> a 3-year-old baby boy left at the bus stop. mommy gets on the bus, takes off, and literally never comes back. to misty reed, anchor, reporter at kern a.m. 1180, misty, what happened? >> i'll give a timeline of what exactly transpired that we know of based on police reports. victoria nelson is 17 years old. on i believe it was the 5th she actually told her mother, identified as angela thomas, that at noon she was going to take xavier, 3 years old, to the mall. angela thomas, victoria's mother, never heard or saw from them again. she reported them missing the next day, the 6th. well, the boy turns up at that

bus stop in south l.a. just after midnight friday morning. a citizen -- what we're told is a transient actually tried to tell victoria she was forgetting victoria as she got on a bus, but she waved him off. so he sat with sleeping xavier for about an hour before he finally called police. >> so a transient, a homeless person basically tried to tell the mother, hey, hey, hey, you're leaving your kid, you're leaving the baby, and she shooed him away and got on the bus and took off? >> that's what police say the witness told police she'd said. and he stayed there for about an hour before he finally turned him over, which is really lucky for that little boy that that man was so nice and kind to do that because that could have been anybody. >> that could have been anybody. a child sex predator, a parolee. it could have been anyone. a dope dealer, a drug addict. god was with xavier that day. to stacy newman, our producer on the story. what can you tell me about her

myspace? >> well, her myspace, basically just the typical teenager type myspace page. but one interesting quote she had on there said, "i'm so damn young, but i do it like a pro." very grown for a 17-year-old girl. >> and what else can you tell me, stacey, about the little boy? who's got the little boy now? is he back with the grandmother? >> he is not back with the grandmother tonight. he's actually with cps tonight. grandmother i believe is probably trying to work out some custody to get this child. >> okay. but didn't the mother and the little boy live with the grandmother already? if there was not something wrong in that home, don't you think, stacey newman, the child would be back in the home? >> i do. and actually, i think police are trying to just sort out what is going on in that home because also we've learned this is not the first time that victoria has taken off with her child. >> let's unleash the lawyers. susan moss, ray giudice, richard

herman. susan moss, anybody could have picked that child up. and here she is on her myspace whining that she's so young to have a child. you know what? it's too late for the whining. >> absolutely. this child learned the hard way that the wheels on the bus go round and round. but he's not alone because there's a sibling. there's a little baby, 11-month-old child, and that child also will be taken away from her custody. you know, maybe family reunification will work, and maybe the grandmother will get custody. but only after we check and make sure that these people aren't a danger to both these kids. >> i just don't understand, dr. d deltito, how you could leave your child sitting there and just looking back at it just get on the bus and leave. >> well, there are some people who lack empathy, lamb sympathy. and remember, we don't really know what happened. maybe she was in trouble. maybe should not was after her -- >> whoa, whoa, whoa. put deltito up. no witness says that someone forced the mother on the bus --

>> no, i'm just saying we should keep an open mind. chances are this is not a caring mother who's worried about the kid. but it could have been at the moment someone was after both of them, she thought the kid was safer just not with her by her side. there's just too much you don't know. >> wait a minute. wait a minute. >> yes. >> she had the grandmother at home, where the child lived, where the other child was. so you're actually telling me with a straight face that she could have thought it was better to leave the child with a homeless man at a public bus station in south l.a. than at home with the grandmother? >> i leave open the 1% possibility that maybe she saw someone in the bus station, someone was following her, she thought she was in danger -- >> please put deltito up. >> -- they may hurt the child. i'm not saying i believe that's the most likely scenario, but there may be a scenario like that boiling around here. in all likelihood she was someone who abandoned her child,

plain and simple, because of her own, who knows, hedonistic interests. but we don't know. and i think we should keep an open mind. >> i know what the witnesses said. and the witnesses said, ray giudice, richard herman, susan moss, that she sat undisturbed at a bus stop with the child, who finally fell asleep. a bus came up, she got on, they tried to show her you're leaving your child, she shooed them away and left the boy and never came back. a 3-year-old child. what's she look at, herman? >> we don't know that this was the mother, nancy. we don't know who this woman was that got on that bus that was with that child. we don't know if victoria nelson's alive as we do the show right now. let's step back for a moment. let's let the investigation take place. >> would you like to try to take a stab at the actual question, ray? >> nancy, every greyhound bus station, trailways, has videotape. there will be videotape showing how long she was there, who if anyone she talked to, her

demeanor. coupled with that facebook quote, i see casey anthony syndrome here. thank goodness the child is healthy and well taken care of. >> to misti reed reid with kern 1180, they're saying bus station. i thought it was a bus stop. >> yeah. it's a bus stop. on the corner of florence avenue and broadway specifically in south l.a. >> that's right on the street. that child could have stepped right out in to the street. >> that's correct. but as the report says, he was asleep on the bench when she did leave him. >> to maria in new mexico. hi, maria. >> hi, nancy. wow, i can't believe i'm talking to you. i want to say i greatly appreciate everything that you do for the kids. i appreciate it so much. i really do. >> i can't take any credit. you know i'm a crime victim.

>> you tell people like it is. you give them the truth, even though it hurts. and i think that's great. my question is, who actually found the baby like did someone get the baby -- did the police see the baby from the bus stop? >> tell us again how the baby was save? >> by a homeless man sitting at the bus stop. he watched as the mom took off. she looked him in the eye, waved. he waited there for a full hour hoping she would come back. when she didn't, he took the little boy to lapd.

really feeling it down deep in my spirit that maybe something bad has happened to her. and that's maybe that's the reason that person said stay here on the bench. >> straight out to doris, hi, doris. >> caller: hi, nancy, how are you? >> i'm good, dear, what's your question. >> caller: why was the baby not automatically turned over to the grandmother. because the child was traumatized when he woke up in the arms of a stranger. but then to be placed with child services. and i know there are federal

laws, nancy, that says children should be placed with biological relatives before they're placed with strangers. >> why do you suppose you've dealt with these types of cases, mike brooks, that the child didn't go back to the home of the grandmother. >> law enforcement is trying to sort all of this out before they make sure they're not putting this child and a little sibling back in the home where both will be in danger again. >> there's another sibling in the home, right? >> there's an 11-month-old who up until today was living with the grandmother. she was taken as well from cps this morning. they haven't released details on why. they keep a very tight lip on reasons why they do what they do, but as of right now, none of victoria's children are with any of the biological relatives. >> everyone, tip line. 877-5273247. let's stop and remember army

private first class justin davis, just 19. gaithersburg maryland, awarded the bronze star, purple heart, defense medal, army service ribbon. lost his life hours after calling home to wish someone birthday. heroes, god. martin luther king jr. and bruce lee. dreamed of college and becoming an actor. remember, for a million dollar smile. he's an only child and leaves behind parents paula and dennis. justin davis, american hero. thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. good night from georgia, friends of the show, galen, john, amy, jennifer. aren't they beautiful. and a special good night to boca raton friend alana. superstar, swim coach to so many, including seniors like 95-year-old ann. to top it all off, alana and her bulldog, harley, never miss a show. thank you to connecticut, fran

rose for these beautiful little hats and mittens for the twins. they love them. it's not even cold yet. we'll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp eastern. until then, good night, friend. when republicans attack, you need wonder woman on your side. well, thank goodness lynda carter will be in the studio tonight. actress and author alicia silverstone will teach us how to lose weight and eat right, all while we save the planet. busy, busy, busy. some right wing theories die a slow, hard death.

on tonight's show, i welcome the mother of all birthers and i expect a very tough delivery. all coming up, next. eeeee

tonight, a russian-born orange county dentist who spends most of her time trying to prove that barack obama wasn't born in the united states. but is this dentist spending too much time with the nitrous oxide? plus, does the president need to pick a fight and win it? should the white house tell bill o'reilly and glen beck to go -- themselves. how positive thinking can have negative effects. and the conversation with the beautiful and talented actress, alicia silverstone. all this and more, tonight.

the far right would like nothing better than to bring down our president. they attack policies and opinions and look for more creative ways to undermine him. one of the questionable claims was that barack obama wasn't born in the united states. >> i want to know why are you people ignoring his birth certificate? he is not an american citizen. he is a citizen of -- >> with me now is the woman leading the birther woman, orlie tats. i want to start with -- before we get to the birther movement, the news broke this afternoon that was you were fined $20,000 by a judge in georgia who called

you delusional? are you delusional? >> no, a delusional and corrupt judge. >> but he was appointed by george bush. >> listen, people make mistakes, what can i say? >> you're not a fan of george bush either. >> i wanted to explain that i'm bringing this issue because the constitutional issue. and as a matter of fact barack obama is not eligible for presidents and not only because they never provided the hospital birth certificate. >> and that's what i wanted to show because they showed on each and every show. this is a hospital birth certificate. there's a lot of information there. that's one from hawaii. that's the one obama posted on the internet. >> i have a copy too. >> you can see a huge difference. >> everyone in hawaii get this is now. >> but the point is that he was asked to provide information. what's the name of the hospital,

the doctor. >> this is what they gave him? >> actually, in his book -- i made sure i read this book. he made sure i had a birth certificate. this is something they got a year ago or two years ago. he provides it. he cherishes it and he gives all of the documents. >> so much verification that he was born here. >> the hawaiian health department released this statement. let me read this statement. i have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the hawaii state of department of health verifying barack hussein obama was born in hawaii and is a natural born citizen. >> let me clarify that. foreign-born children of hawaiian residents to get birth certificate. rule 338-17. moreover, state of hawaii allows one get a birth certificate based on the statement of one relative only. if his mother writes a statement, and they could even

mail the statements back in '61 saying -- >> where is the proof that that happen? >> that's the whole point. the fact that his behavior shows a guilty mind. we had over 100 lawsuits. >> i don't see that. i don't agree with that. two separate hawaiian newspapers. the honolulu star advertiser and the bulletin purchased the birth announcements in 1961. was his mother planning? several years from now, he's going to be president so i'll pretend he was born here. she's not that planner. she couldn't plan ahead. it's not logical. >> that's a good point. that's why i want to explain it. because in hawaii, what they did was in '61, they had hawaiian news agency. they would bring all of the birth certificate that came from the hospitals and the ones he has based on the statement of a relative. there was never even hospital birth certificate found where

just he was born here. they send all of them. they don't say this is legitimate. >> so many people disagree with you. hawaii's governor, a republican who backs john mccain has confirmed that obama was born in the states. a nonpartisan group. >> she never did. >> yes, she did. >> you don't know when because it never happened. joy, it never happened. >> i'll find out. >> a nonpartisan group called factcheck.org. nonpartisan, they have no interest. >> they are partisan. >> why do you say that? >> you say partisan, i say nonpartisan? why are you right and i'm wrong? >> why? they're owned by anberg foundation. they own ed anberg challenge an obama got $50,000. >> i need to see proof of that. >> sure, absolutely. let me ask you something -- a more general idea about this

whole thing. what are you trying to get out of this. why do you want to discredit this president? what is your motivation? >> i don't want to discredit this president. >> it sure sounds like it. >> but first of all, let me show this -- can you do a close-up? >> it doesn't matter. they can't read it anyway. >> it's a court order. it's saying that we are going to trial january 26 in california, central district of california. judge david o'carter, january 26, 8:30 in the morning, jury trial. and this judge stated -- this is a legitimate issue and it's important for the whole country and important for the military. >> the country is in a lot of trouble. we're in a a lot of trouble. what do you want him to happen? let's say you ear right. you're not right, let's say you are. i can't accept you're right but you're wrong. i have too much proof. >> i can't understand that. >> we're at a check mate. what's the point of this. this would be harmful for the country.

for this to happen. john mccain to get in there. a lot of people said he wasn't born there. the father and mother and whole family in the united states military. he was born in panama, the united states citizen. people say you would be the united states citizen. >> according to the law, we're going to trial in california january 26. and i'm representing 46 members. >> if, indeed, the court finds he was not legitimate, like in many european countries, we'll have a special election. maybe lit be another democrat in the white house, maybe it will be hillary. i don't know. >> what religion do you think he is? >> i don't know. but it doesn't matter. >> does this have anything to do with israel at all? >> not at all. as a matter of fact, if you read some of my articles, i criticized for example bobby jindal. he was hailed as the next

president of the united states. jindal who's a staunch republican cannot be the next president. because that's the most important point. he has to be a natural born citizen. it's one who's not only born in the country, but whose parents, both of them, are citizens of the country. >> that's not true. that's not a fact. you have to know. >> how do you know? >> people come here illegally, say they come over the mexican border and she's pregnant. then they're illegal, they have a baby. that baby is an american citizen. >> citizen but not natural born. >> they can be president if they're born here. >> that's the whole point. people need to understand the difference. i can show this -- >> not the picture. they can't see it anyway. that's the law of nations. that's a legal treatise that was used when the constitution was written. natural born citizen is born in the country to two parents who are citizens. >> the first president of the united states, george washington, he was a natural born citizen. >> that is a good point, joy.

you're right. they have a provision of citizen at the time -- >> you seem to project a little anxiety. you have angtdty. is it because you're in the soviet union for so long. >> i have anxiety for the person who's committing massive fraud who wants to become president. >> how come you never went after george bush without proof that they had weapons of mass destruction. that would have been a legitimate cause for you. this is crazy. no one agrees with you. >> the governor of hawaii -- >> the governor of hawaii doesn't agree with you. >> when does she say, it never happen? >> what? >> it never happened. >> it was in "usa today" article. you can look it up. google it. google it. >> look at this. here's more information. not only he was not legitimate for presidency, but we have found that he has used national

data bases 39 different social security numbers. one of them -- >> i don't know how you have time for this. you're a busy dentist. you need to like -- this is such a waste of your time. >> you know, legitimacy of the president of the united states -- >> should have done it eight years ago, baby. >> commander in chief. >> thank you for coming on. your husband is a big fan of mine. good. when we come back, the obama administration measuring progress in inches, not miles. whatever that means.

president obama got 53% of the vote last november and his party controls both chambers of congress. when it comes to getting stuff done, he's getting bullied on the playground. the glen becks of the world to his right and impatient liberals to the left. so is he paralyze in the middle? helping me solve this mystery is leslie sanchez, republican strategist and author of "you've come a long way, maybe." lynda carter, democrat, actress, singer, and all-around beautiful girl. before we get to obama, welcome, ladies. what did you think of orlie, the birther lady. >> just kind of stunned that she's still doing it. >> ridiculous. >> she's a -- >> it's an important issue to a small constituency, but a lot of people are resolved it's just not going to go anywhere.

>> she kept insisting that i find the date and the proof of the hawaiian governor who said he was born there. i want to read this. september 30, '08, the hawaiian governor said barack obama was born in my state and went to school there, as the united states senator, i never met him. she said he was born there and went to school there. is that enough? it's not enough for this woman. >> her 15 minutes of fame. >> was she born here? oh. >> she was born -- yeah, in russia. >> oh, okay. >> i don't think that's so much the issue. i think -- i don't know where you're going. but there are a lot of people who did have questions about that. looked at the validity of that. but there's been enough solid sources that have proven that's really not an issue and not a politically winning issue. going nowhere. >> it's going nowhere. it's a waste of our time. >> it's a larger picture of the obamas and who's pulling the

strings, what's the truth? >> makes a lot of the right wing look paranoid, though? >> a lot of people in the right wing are paranoid because of a lot of things that are happening. those things go together. it's not a bad thing. people are concerned about this country. they want to make sure it's good leadership. they're not happy with the direction of the country. that's the bigger issue. >> not happy under bush. >> not happy. >> ronald reagan, not happy then. everybody is happy, the republicans under ronald reagan. >> we did love ronald reagan. >> donald reagan, i called them. >> speaking of economics. quick lip. i want to touch on the health care bill. today it touched the senate finance committee, the bachus

bill. one republican voted for it, olympia snowe. it doesn't have the public option. >> in my opinion, the only way -- i don't know anything about it more than anyone else does who's been following it. it's a huge problem. it's overwhelming. but i'm against it. is what i want to know. >> i'm against it. >> the bigger issue is cost. there's a strong sentiment that the neediest people need to be protected and have access to care. small businesses, low income that may be disadvantaged. we have to ensure that the families don't go to bankruptcy because of one health care disaster. many of us feel that way. the costs ensued. there's a new survey that came out today that talked about tthere would be 4,000 per family without the public option. if you pull that away, a lot of people know politics, the devil in the details and we don't want

to be snookerred in to some effort that costs family more. >> just a general note about health care. why do they have to make profit on health care? i don't understand that. a lot of countries don't. they make money on health care? it's immoral. >> the capital society, it insent vises people to do the research and development. if they're not paid, they're not going to do it for altruistic reasons. >> i don't know if that's true. a lot of other countries have come up with ideas. >> a lot of our pharmaceuticals go around the world on pennies on the dollar. there are benefits. they don't pay the research. the americans pay that research. >> how many times have we -- how many times have we tried to put forward a health care plan and the republican party has been the one to defeat it. >> they're obstructionists in my opinion. >> oh, no. excuse me. it was the same thing for social

security. it was the same thing for medicare. >> socialism. medicare is socialism. the fire department and if police department and people who pave the roads. they don't have a problem with that. i don't get it. let's change the subject. glen beck had the usual measured reaction after the white house called out fox news. watch. >> we have the missiles pointed right at fox. let's make sure everybody understands this is the enemy, america. everything that's going wrong in the country happening right here. >> what is up with glen we cbec? >> that's not funny. >> you're not in his camp. what exactly is he up to? >> he raises a lot of important issues? >> are you serious? >> he does. even if you listen to the radio show years ago, he investigated what the government was doing. >> he calls himself an entertainer. >> he calls himself a rodeo clown.

>> entertainer. >> rodeo clowns are funny. i have to take that away from him. sorry. very amusing. >> do you think there's a person -- >> good person? >> good for the country. the fear, the loathing, the racism. the absolute inane accusations making yom kippur a republican holiday. >> being a racist was over the edge. that was ridiculous. >> there's a lot of things. >> how do you defend -- how do you justify paying him big salaries and -- i don't get it. i really don't -- >> well, she doesn't dish. >> i don't pay him -- i wrote him a check last week. i did not. i did not, kidding. sorry, glenn. but what i'm saying is he does speak to a large percent of the electorate that's concerned about the direction of the country. >> really? >> listen, ladieladies, look --

going to keep you here. we'll be right back.

back with lynda carter and leslie sanchez. we just showed "wonder woman." you're curvy, you're not built like a boy. today's actresses are built like a boy. they come on my other show, request it the view," they're so thin, they look as though they were raised like veal in a corral. they just didn't grow. >> yeah. they are -- i think it's -- basically unhealthy. and i went through my really

unhealthy period when i was as thin as i was for "wonder woman." i exercised all the time and didn't eat. so when you start that kind of behavior, you're like -- >> you blow up. >> like diet pills. once you stop any of that stuff, you blow up. drugs are like that. saying before, i think republican women are thinner than democrats? do you think so? i' know they're blonder. >> i have the wrong hair color. >> you're a spy for them. no one realizes you're a republican. >> get information. >> i think she's a democrat. >> she's not. i've seen her many times with wolf blitzer. she's no democrat. designer karl lagerfeld likes girls skinny. no one wants to see round women. he said in reaction to a magazine announcing they would use realistic women rather than skinny models. these are fat mummies sitting

with their bags of crisps in front of the television saying that thin models are ugly. is this guy? what does he make of a statement like that? >> was he a large person? >> he's fat. a self-hating fat person. he was fat and now he's skinny and he hates fat. and he despises the fat in himself. that's my psychological evaluation of this. how does he know what women want, leslie? >> women want to see skinny women. no you don't. >> a time, certain couture designers, they do beautiful dresses. in modern day, women want clothes that are comfortable, feminine. body image is so important because we have an impact on the daughters. the mother going through the same experience, it has an effect on tweens and teenagers.

it's critical now. >> i want to see designers do things that protect us. and the skinny girl look and the -- >> the fat woman with armor. >> you know, just the gatherers and the things -- the three quarters -- the things that help us out. >> some designers -- >> much better at that stuff. they need to help us out a little bit and not be so against us that we have to be toothpicks. >> this other one, christian laputan, i call him, he's known for his five-inch heels, this guy, right? he says the barbie doll has fat ankles. they're going berserk over there, i think. this obsession with being thin is going to kill all of us. >> most of the girls on runways or in the magazines, they do what basically is -- and us too, for that matter, a two-hour makeover every time you're in the camera. you're a makeover, someone you're paying thousands of dollars to to do you every day -- >> without a makeover, i could

not be here sitting with you. thanks, ladies. when we come back, save the wishing for your birthday candles. the reality is next.

my next guest believes that positive thinking is another form of stupidity. the author of nearly 20 books, her latest is, "bright-sided, how the relentless notion of positive thinking has undermined america." welcome barbara aerenright. why is positive thinking so stupid? >> well, i wouldn't say stupid. that's a little mean. >> bad idea. >> i think, it's so much a -- it's almost mandatory in this country. if your boss is giving you

little motivational books and making you go to motivational speakers and everything at work, you don't have a choice, though. i first encountered it when i was treated for breast cancer eight years ago. as i reached out for support on the web and different ways, all i got back was not support but people saying, you've got to be positive, you have to embrace this disease. >> you have to fight this disease. >> they didn't say that. >> they didn't say that? >> well, they used that language too. you have to come out so much more spiritual and evolved. >> what's the logic? >> you could say any hardship could form character. i'm not looking for character-forming experiences in my life. i was horrified with that. that went along with it at the time was the idea that very much with us, you can overcome cancer, not just breast cancer but other kinds if you have a positive attitude.

>> remember the study done years ago, i forget the guy's name now. he kept watching funny movies and they said that cured him. >> a lot of people will look back and say, yes, i got through my cancer because i had a positive attitude. we don't know that. >> i had a terrible attitude. >> i was angry the whole time. and i'm still angry about why do we have this -- the epidemic of this disease? and why are the treatments so barbar barbaric? >> but you're over it? >> knock on wood, yeah. >> what about the book, "the secret". >> of course. >> it's a huge best seller. basically the author is saying, if you want something, you can mentally attract things to you. by wanting them, just wanting them. >> wouldn't it be wonderful? >> so if you want a particular guy, it will come to you. >> you have breast cancer, you think positively, you will recover from it. we get that all the time.

and the secret was a pretty extreme version. >> people love it. >> yeah. it's the law of attraction. things will come to you just by thinking. if you just concentrate right now on getting $100 in your mullet, it will come. it's more or less like that. i'm being a little crass. >> how is it different from magical thinking or religion? >> if you pray for something, you'll get it. >> there there's the idea of an intermediary, a deity who will give it to you. but this assumes that your mind is so powerful, if you harness the powers of your mind, you'll get anything you want for yourself. now, that sounds wonderful. but the flip side is anything bad that happens to you happens because you had bad thoughts. >> well, that's the good news and the bad news then. >> you get, for example, the author of "the secret" commenting about the tsunami of 2006 and saying probably the victims of the tsunami attracted to themselves by putting out a

vibration on a kind of tsunami wavelength. >> somebody today on the show i do "the view," she was saying that people can determine what their deaths are going to be like. can you imagine that? like if you -- you will decide how your death is going to come. i really think that's ridiculous. >> is that called suicide? >> there you go. but regarding the visual creative aspect of this. i can tell you from my own point of view, it doesn't work for me sometimes. i'm a standup comic. one time i was about to go on stage and the woman who wrote a book about the power of positive thinking and creative visualization. she said to me, because i'm always anxious, just visualize that it will be funny. that the audience is just going to love you. i said to her, are you trying to kill my career? because that would be the worst thing that i could do, you know? to go out there with all of the positive. i go out there -- funny is negative. negative is funny.

so that did not work. but sometimes creative visualization could work. i said to myself, okay, i want another talk show. i got one. >> that's wonderful. i once had my wallet stolen and i kept trying to visualize it back there and -- >> concentrate and concentrate. didn't come back. >> didn't come back. >> see that. >> what about this guy, joel osteen, very, very popular, very wealthy. his philosophy is basically feel good, anyone can be rich sermons. listen to this -- >> this year will be a year of your unprecedented favor, that we will see promotions, bonuses, that you will open up doors that no man can shut. >> okay, what happened to -- he's positive -- isn't it very calvinist to think you can attract money to yourself. this is something that i don't think jesus was in to this type of wrap. >> worse than that -- or better than that, i should say, osteen can actually attract good

parking spaces and he the attract the best restaurant. >> he wants a good parking space. >> he can attract anything like that. no, it's all very materialistic. and to me, has nothing to do with what i thought christianity was about at all. >> at all. >> and what about the preachers who used to say, you were going to go to hell if you're a sinner and you're a bad person. if you -- if you beat your wife, few fyou drink? what happened to those -- is it not profitable to preach that? >> not anymore. that's the old calvinism in 1960. the current cult of positive thinking arose for good reason. in response to that kind of thing. with people saying, no, wait a minute. i'm not a wretch, i'm not doomed to torment for the rest of eternity. not going to spend my life looking for sin. >> don't bring me down, man. >> it was a good response to that. >> so, just as a general note, why is positive thinking bad for

the -- for the country. >> it's delusional is the thing. we don't need positive thinking, negative thinking, we need realism. one of the reasons, not the only reason, one of them for the financial crash of '08 was that nobody was allow in their finance companies and the banks to say excuse me, i think our sub prime exposure is too high. or, excuse me, you know, this is crazy. we've got a whole economy based on a housing bubble. >> reality. >> people were fired for saying those things. >> i see. >> so the book is called "bright-sided." you don't see things coming. it's denial. >> okay. i want to bring in lisa nichols who's a life coach and best-selling author of "no matter what -- nine steps to living the life you love." you've been listening to barbara. you disagree with some of her philosophy. why? >> i do. you know, actually, barbara, i respect your opinion and

positive thinking has its place. i agree with you when you say positive thinking isn't enough. you have to go in to action. you know, most people talk about just think about it, think about it. well, the beginning is the thought. and then following the thought is an action. joy, you talked about -- you talked about wanting a talk show. you thought about it, wanted it, did something about it which is why we're on your show right now. so i believe that thinking plus action is critical. >> it's a difference between what you're saying. a goal -- a goal is a perfectly legitimate thing to have. you have a goal. you implement the steps that will take you to the goal. i think that's different from what you're saying. >> i can be very determined even when i have no or very little hope of winning. i can still feel enormous determination. >> yes. yes. it's different from the delusional idea. lisa, what do you say to that? there's a secret, for instance, you believe in "the secret," i

take it. >> i believe that in the first thing i need to do is set my intentions on something. what do i want to create. >> okay. >> barbara, i can respect the fact that you can have a goal and be hopeless about it. i believe that when that mom, that single mother is thinking about providing for her children, she's not thinking they're going to go hungry. she wants to know she's going to have everything she needs for them. then she has to go to work to make sure she has everything she needs for them. i believe that your life begins with the way you choose to think, however -- >> if she can't get a job, that same woman, she can't be in this kind of delusion that there's something wrong with her. i think that's the point. >> i would worry about that. >> you know, i don't say there's something wrong with you. i say there's a need to not only have the thought but to have the action. but the action comes when your thought is positive. you have to start with something. what are you rooted in? >> i think in a way we agree on some of it. some of it we don't. thank you, ladies.

up next, fat baby, skinny models, and a piece of my mind just for you. you're welcome. stick around.

this week, german designer carl lagerfeld defended using anorexic women as models, and an insurance company denied coverage to a 4-month-old baby boy. they said he's too fat. here's the baby. i don't know what they're talking about. he's adorable and not fat. he's big boned. the baby weighed 8.25 pounds at birth. he's 4 months old and he's 17 pounds. she must have half and half in those boobs. he's healthy. the insurance says he can't have health insurance because he has a pre-existing condition. he's 4 months old. when did he develop a pre-existing condition? was he eating twinkies inute row. and the women who stagger down the runways.

lagerfeld said fashion is not reality. it's dreams and illusions. he's got the illusion that he's not a wax figure at madam tussau tussaudses. i'm dreaming i fit in my jeans without spanx. are we thinking this mother should nurse lagerfeld's models? never take advice from insurance add jus tors or weird designers. i'd kill for a canole? does anyone have --

my next guest became a big screen sensation in movies like "clueless" and "batman & robin." alicia silverstone put down a script, popped out a pen and popped out a book. "feeling great, losing weight, and saving the planet" is in stores now. welcome to the show. you're doing a lot in the diet. saving the planet and losing weight. that's a tall order. >> isn't that exciting that it works that way? >> and what makes this diet so kind? >> well, it's kind to yourself because you're going first. and it's kind to the planet as well. so it's putting yourself first and realizing you're not good at anything or as good as you can be when you're not feeling your best. so being mindful of what you eat and getting more energy and not having to take as many prescription drugs and see your

doctor less. >> what if you like prescription drugs. >> if you like them, you can continue taking them. if it's for fun, recreational drugs are a whole different thing. >> okay. she's not so clueless. what do you eat exactly? >> i eat all kinds of eggs in this book. it's my recipe. waffle, cheese, panini -- >> no cheese or sausage. >> it tastes just as yummy. >> i really believe that? >> you would really, really like it. you're going to eat some stuff i'm going to test you on. chorizo tacos. >> not chorizo -- >> no, soy chorizo -- >> chocolate peanut buttercups. >> real peanut butter, real chocolate. >> traditional english breakfast. these pictures are amazing, no? >> wonderful book. no fish in there at all? >> i don't eat fish. in the book -- >> you don't eat meat, dairy, or

fish. >> i don't. what i'm trying to do with this book. this book is not for vegans and vegetarians. it's for anyone who wants to feel their best and maybe lose weight and be their most vital. and how you would do that is take baby steps. so i have a part of the book called "the flirting diet." so if you're kind of casually dating the whole concept of being more vegetarian, maybe being an aspiring vegetarian so you don't have to commit to it and make yourself crazy if you fall off the wagon. no judgment. >> now, you have a few good things in there. i like some of the food. i'm a meat eater. >> i do -- >> i do dairy. is wine a fruit or a vegetable? >> wine is definitely good. >> it's a fruit, right? >> yes, it's a fruit. >> so you have pizza and coffee fudge brownies which look -- you have something called raw balls. >> they were inspired by your friend juliana's raw balls.

you can eat them straight out of the freezer. >> i love that you picked up on that. i love that you picked up on that. i think that's very funny. and i love the raw balls. >> what are they, exactly? >> they are made of -- >> walnuts? dates and -- >> yep. >> maple syrup. it's really a dessert. not for juliana but still -- >> you're 21, you became a vegan. >> love pork chops. that's a big jump, from pork chops to soy. >> the really cool thing is it's not like the -- all of the things that are in this book that i've been talking about is my leak and pesto, that's not less yummy than the pork chop. i didn't know there's all this possibility. i'm not deprived in any way. it's not like when i stopped eating pork chops, i stopped eating food. all of the sophisticated stuff i

know about. now i'm eating delicious things. >> what were you raised? >> i had pork chops a lot. >> you are not supposed to be eating pork chops. lots of bacon and -- you know. >> and you've given that up now. >> kosher vegan. >> i eat tempe bacon now, which is really, really delicious. >> i read an article about you in the paper yesterday that you leave notes for your neighbors saying turn off your spigots -- >> they're leaking. >> turn your lights out. do you leave that all the time? are you popular in this neighborhood? >> i never say my name on the note. >> you don't say your name on the note. now they know who it is. >> but the other thing i do do is i knocked on the neighbor's door and i said, hi, i'm sorry to bother you. but your lights have been on for

like 24 hours a day for like months and it's driving you crazy. she said it's really killing you, huh? she said, i'll take care of it. i drove by and it was all fixed mae. >> she might be talking about you behind your back. >> she might think i'm really annoying. >> you say you can lose weight in this diet. did you have a weight issue? i don't remember seeing you in any shape as beautiful as the way you are now. >> i've been like this for long time. i feel like i've looked like this since i made the chance in my life -- >> i've been thinking of developing a food allergy to lose weight. everyone who is allergic to gluten and yeast, i can't eat that. they're all skinny. >> milk was designed to make a baby calf into a 400 pound cow. if you want to develop a food allergy, develop a food allergy to dairy. >> what about the french? the french live for dairy and they're thin. >> i don't know.

>> but they smoke. >> have to do rrch on the french. >> will you stick around? i want to taste this food. more with the beautiful and talented alicia silverstone when we come back.

i'm back with alicia silver stone. we're talking about her new book "the kind diet." alicia cooked this up during the commercial break and we're about to indulge. >> this is at candle 7, a great restaurant in new york. you have satan pakata. >> satan pakata? >> satan made this for you. >> this isn't veal. ha is it, is it rubber? >> have it with all the stuff. >> it has some kind of spinach? >> i'm going to make you -- >> like this? a mashed potato? >> yeah, and some sauce. >> potatoes are okay on this

diet. >> yeah, it's fine. okay. >> it's cold because they -- >> it's cold, unfortunately, but have this one. >> what's this made of? >> wheat, but it's pure protein with no cholesterol. >> what do you mean pure protein? >> it's pure protein. >> from what, though? >> the process in which it's made. >> what's this? i notice you're not eating it. >> i'm trying to get you -- i'll eat you. >> this is a veggie? >> just get it in there. >> that's good. >> right. >> what's that? >> satan chemichurry. >> again, with satan. this is a lemon caper sauce. it's delicious. >> potatoes are okay on this diet, right? >> yeah. >> it's not a diet, it's a lifestyle. >> the true definition of diet is a day's journey. i want to return that word back to its original definition which means a way of thinking rather

than being limited and so people can be free of all this calorie counting and mind screwing, be free. >> when you go on the road or something, alicia, you can't bring this food with you. what do you do when you -- an airplane, for instances what do you eat on an airplane? >> i bring my food on the airplane and order a vegetarian meal. on virgin the meals are amazing but not on all the other airlines. >> that's a good plug for them. what is this? is this supposed to be cake in. >> get in there. it's peanut butter and chocolate mouse. get the cookie part on the bottom. >> there's cookie on the bottom. >> yeah. >> it's a cookie. >> cookie with peanut butter and chocolate. okay. hang on. did you get it? >> yeah, i got a piece of cookie. why is it there -- >> this is good. this is a sweet. i like peanut butter. very nice. this is like a real thing. >> let me have some of that one. >> this not some made up protein. >> it's not made up protein. it's pure protein.

>> i mean, people talk about to few as being a protein. i would accept it if you say this is tofu but it's not. >> it's not. >> what's tempe in. >> tempe is pure protein. >> where does it come from. >> from soybeans. it's been fermented. it turns into a meaty, nutty texture. >> i'm going to give this to the true. maybe they would like to try this. i always give them -- >> i wish it was hot for you. >> like when the king would have the other people test it to see if there's poison in it. >> would somebody like to have one right now? i bet you guys would love it. come here. >> there are a bunch of hungry dogs over there. >> i want to see the reaction from one of you. >> frank will try it out. >> this is satan chimmich rurks ry. >> satan chimmichurye yeah. >> mm. >> he likes it. >> can you indulge? >> this was good. thank you, alicia. very much. >> thank you.

>> thanks to aleash sh and all my guests tonight. thank you for watching. good night, everybody. i'm going to have more of this dessert.

breaking news tonight. a $1 million mansion, a tv deal, personal stylists, a fleet of luxury cars, beautiful people, eight beautiful children. they had it all. tonight, allegations of daddy siphoning the very last drop of the family's money to support all his girlfriends and his lavish lifestyle. siphoning to the tune of $250,000. allegations of illegal wiretapping, phone taps, bank account, computer surveillance by daddy, a known computer specialist.

charges of drug use, x-rated sleep overs with a female bartender dadty allegedly hired to baby sit in the home with the children asleep upstairs. and that's the tip of the iceberg. bombshell tonight -- just hours ago gosselin in court claiming wife, kate, secretly stashing $1 million. and after gosselin rides that gravy train for years, putting his children on tv, now claiming he no longer wants them, quote, exposed. is that because the show's now "kate plus 8," not "jon & kate plus 8?" both tell the judge the other's a deadbeat, welching on child support. the judge brings down the hammer. didn't we all know it would end in court someday? is daddy headed to the big house? >> what happened today? can you tell us?

>> i don't know. i've never been in court before. >> are you going to provide the accounting that the arbitrator says, kate? >> there's kate's side. she says jon took $230,000 out of a joint account. >> you've left your children and their mother unable to pay for the roof over their head. it's not acceptable. >> jon claims he only took $22,000 out. >> she's making claims that she can't back up. if she said i took $230,000, where's the bank statement to prove it? it's he said/she said -- >> no. no. no. it is not a he said/she said. he can't tell us his last withdrawal? >> is the money going to go back to the accounts, jon? did you guys talk about that at all? >> you can't have it both ways. you can't make all this money putting your kids on tv and now when she's making the money say uh-uh, uh-uh -- >> it's not about the money. it's about getting my kids off tv -- >> why was it okay when you did it? >> because i wasn't -- i feel now empowered -- >> broke? >> no. i'm not broke.

i'm not broke at all. and tonight, mommy at a local l.a. bus stop waiting for the bus. her 3-year-old little boy asleep beside her. the bus pulls up, mommy gets on, drives away, leaving baby alone at the bus stop. she never comes back. sex predators, stalkers, dope addicts. who knows who'd show up on the next bus? but mommy didn't care. she just kept on riding. los angeles police are investigating the case of a 3-year-old boy abandoned at a bus stop in the middle of the night whose mother is now missing. 3-year-old xavier nelson was left by an unidentified woman at a south los angeles bus stop after midnight on friday. >> lapd released this video to the media in hopes someone would recognize this toddler.

and someone did. angela thomas says her mother called her from the southland saying she saw her grandson on tv. >> my heart dropped. i was about to cry. not just because i saw him. because of the story that they were telling. >> a witness observed the child sitting next to a woman when the bus arrived. the woman then got onto the bus and left the child behind. the witness yelled to the woman to tell her she forgot the boy, but the woman just waved him off. >> angela says the last time she saw her daughter, victoria nelson, and grandson, xavier, was a week ago. >> the grandmother says 17-year-old victoria may be in danger and could have been forced to abandon her child. >> victoria would never, ever put her child in harm's way like that. she would never do that. unless there was a reason and the reason was somebody has caused harm on her. good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. $250,000 gone. allegations of illegal wiretapping, hacking into bank accounts, cell phones, claims of

x-rated sleepovers with the eight children asleep upstairs? "jon & kate plus 8," it had to end in court. >> all eyes on a montgomery county, pennsylvania, courtroom, where these charges kate gosselin has brought forward -- >> he took $230,000 of the $231,000 that we have liquid. and i have a stack of bills in my purse i can't drop in the mail. >> she claims we don't have money? she has 11 other bank accounts. she made $1 million off her book. for her to call me a criminal by stealing money, that she thinks i stole, i mean, it's just -- it's gotten so ridiculous. >> there are very good aspects of being a control freak. i persevere. i will not lay down and die. >> i took less than 10%. less than 10% since march till now. less than 10%. where is the $2 million? $2 million. >> what's important is the children, and not these two self-absorbed husband and wife who argue constantly in front of their children. >> exactly. that's why they're coming off -- >> that's why the show is --

>> why don't you stop arguing and work on your marriage? >> exactly. >> wouldn't that be a better idea? >> the abysmal behavior on the part of both of these parents and particularly jon is re-victimizing these children on a regular basis. the whole world's watching this thing absolutely aghast. >> please, people, stop interfering in our lives. we know what's best. >> do you feel he's abandoning his kids by moving to new york city? >> i don't understand why he's not living down the street. if he's got to get a divorce, if you two can't work it out, why do you want to move away to new york and be that far away from your children? >> why do you feel like you need to be in new york and -- >> i'm in new york because i have business in new york, i have contacts in new york. i'm proceeding to do other career things. i mean, if i had to buy a hotel room, no one's footing the bill for that. i mean, it's expensive enough. i have to move further with my career to afford my kids as well. >> do you think joint custody will work for jon and kate? >> i hope it does because even if we disapprove of the way he's behaved, those children love him and they need their father.

both parties in court just hours ago, and it ain't pretty. straight to maxine paige, senior news editor, radaronline. maxine, what happened? >> they met at judge arthur tilson's quarters, and they met privately. jon was ordered to pay back $180,000 that he'd taken from their joint savings account, and kate was ordered to account for $55,000 that she took that she says was for household bills and expenses. >> so let me get this straight. unleash the lawyers. susan moss, raymond giudice, richard herman. he is ordered to pay back nearly $200,000, and she is ordered to account for money. what about it, sue moss? >> return the cash or face a backlash. look, when you start off a case by stealing money, everyone thinks you're a stealer. this was the worst possible move for jon, not only pr world but also in terms of his divorce custody because no one's going to trust him. no one's going to trust his word. and no one's going to trust his

actions. >> back to maxine page, senior news editor, radaronline.com. maxine, so he's ordered to pay back the 180 grand. did he try to explain to the judge why he took the money? >> he said that it amounted to his paycheck, that he hasn't withdrawn any money and it's basically what he's owed for the work he's done with tlc. >> jane velez-mitchell, host of hln's "issues," author of "i want." jane, what can you tell me? >> well, the big question, nancy, is does he still have the 180 grand? we know he lives a very lavish lifestyle. he has two fancy cars, a bmw and a mercedes. he also has a bachelor pad that's kind of expensive. he also has flown across the pond. he's been in the south of france, popping champagne. he has girlfriends. he has a very lavish "lifestyles of the rich & famous" kind of lifestyle. so if he's blown the money, how will he get it back? because if he doesn't return it, he will be held in contempt of court. >> what about it, clark

goldband? >> he's struck back in his own court filing, saying kate is hiding at least $1 million worth of the family's money and he wants to know where it is. jon gosselin also saying kate hasn't paid over $7,500 per month in child support for some months and he wants to know where she's been spending her money. >> okay. let me get this straight. back to you, maxine page. so both of them have to pay $7,500 a month child support? the mom and the dad both have to pay child support, correct? >> correct. they pay it into a joint account. and then they draw the household expenses from that account. >> we are taking your calls live. but first i want to introduce a special guest joining us tonight. she's joining us from cnbc. it's suze orman. financial expert, best-selling author. i can't say enough about her. you can see her every saturday night, cnbc. suze, what should they have done?

other than allegedly bringing home the bartender and sleeping with her upstairs while the children are somewhere else and buying the girlfriend a porsche suv? things like that. just the obvious. you can skip over that. but what should they have done so this would not end in court? and suze orman, i don't understand. to me it's a simple matter. you bring in the checks and you say see, i've been paying my child support. why are we having to argue about this? >> here's the thing. when it comes to money, when you're in a state of hate, nancy, people do absurd things. they do not do logical things. they never will. so the truth of the matter is for the people watching this right now on some level i actually don't care what jon -- what they all do. i care what the people in america are going to do with their own money. and they need to look at this as an example. you need to set up separate accounts. you need to have a joint account. but you can never put yourself in a position where somebody can take money from your account. and if you set up an account as

joint tenants with right of survivorship, one person can rob the other account totally clean. it doesn't matter. so don't do that to people. >> suze, what about all the confusion? i've got a checking, a savings, and a college fund for the twins. boom. why do they have 12 accounts between them? >> well, first of all, they have eight children, correct? >> right. >> now, the real thing is how do we know that the money that those kids earned -- because those kids earned money, nancy. where is that money? that money should actually be set up in such a way, truthfully, one for each kid that neither jon nor kate can take it out without both signatures. >> i've learned my lessons. i know i made mistakes. i'm apologizing for them now on national television. because i am a public figure. i realize that now. that i do have to apologize to the public as well as to kate and to my kids.

when i get home, i will apologize to her.

how was it seeing kate in the court? >> you're clenching your jaw, jon. >> it's because it's cold out. >> why is this always about you? why are we talking about you? she asked you about your children. >> i don't know. i just -- i just thought, you know, you needed -- >> well, it's a good place to start. >> i did not take $230,000. i took $22,000. i have nothing to hide. >> the tabloid and the whole media mess always makes it worse than it is.

>> for years, jon, you had your children on tv on a reality show, but suddenly when it's no longer "jon & kate plus 8," it's "kate plus 8," you suddenly have a problem with it and you want it all to come to an end, and i don't believe that. >> regardless of the timing, i'm their father, and i will do what's best for my children. >> i know that personally for myself and the kids this has been a good experience. it continues to be a good experience. >> the timing is irrelevant -- >> oh, you've got your lawyer here? you're afraid to answer questions? whatever. >> remember, the kids are just playing in front of the cameras. >> now she's thinking that the american public's going to believe her over me? i had to defend myself in that. >> if you two can't work it out, why do you want to move away to new york and be that far away from your children? >> why do you feel like you need to be in new york and -- >> i'm in new york because i have business in new york, i have contacts in new york, i'm proceeding to do other career things. i mean, if i had to buy a hotel room, no one's flipping the bill for that. we have a corporate account, which she's talking about, and

we have a housing account. both have checking and savings. the corporate account is where my tlc paycheck goes to, and every week i withdraw from that account. just like anyone else would. i have the proof right here that i only took $22,000. which is my paycheck. in arbitration she was supposed to account for $470,000 that she hasn't accounted for. so she disobeyed a court order. she claims we don't have money? she has 11 other bank accounts. she made $1 million off her book. let me also say that i pay $7,500 per month for the kids, utilities, two mortgages, and everything else that needs to be paid. and she's not even talking about that account. >> eheeh. what he failed to mention is she's paying the same at of child support that he is and not only that, suze orman, financial guru of cnbc, best-selling

author. did you see him just then? tell mary hart, who was so not believing it, did you see her going mm-hmm, uh-huh, he just said i only took $25,000, when a judge ordered -- >> from his corporate account. from his corporate account. >> and his judge ordered him today to pay back $180,000. >> so here's the point. you look at this man. obviously, we could all think whatever we want to think about him. but there was a point, nancy, when kate looked at him and said i love you, i love you, i trust you, let's have babies together. and that's true with everybody throughout the united states. you look at somebody, you say i love you and you trust them. i'm telling you, everybody watching us right now, don't think this can't happen to you. not to the magnitude of what you see happening with jon and kate, but you have got to know where your money is. you have to have separate accounts. you have to really have an understanding so that this can never happen to you. because jon can be anybody that you know, believe it or not. >> okay. we're taking your calls live. but first take a look at what kate had to say on nbc "today."

>> the last thing i wanted was to do this show and end up not being able to pay my bills. so i put money aside, willingly brought it forward and split it with him when we had our meeting. so he took the $50,000 and did whatever with it. i paid bills with my $50,000. and once the court arbitrator stepped in, i felt like the money -- i had to put it back. i didn't feel like it would be safe, to be honest. and -- >> straight to the lines. to brenda in utah. hi, brenda. >> caller: hi. thank you for taking my call. >> thank you for calling in, dear. what's your question? >> caller: well, i don't like either one of them, but i do think people are being a lot nicer to her than they are to him. i think they're both despicable. but do the children have guardian ad litem to protect them? >> excellent question. let's go back to the lawyers, sue moss, raymond giudice, richard herman. what about it, herman? i have heard nothing about a guardian ad litem being appointed for the children

simply for their interests. >> i haven't heard, either. and they have to have one because they're generating fees based on the program. so there has to be some sort of guardian ad litem. but these two train wrecks, nancy, i believe they stage this, they survive on publicity. he's going to put the money back. they're in the news today. they're going to generate money. this is the only way they could generate money. they have no skills. they have no talent. this is it. >> giudice? >> well, i agree with richard. and i also agree with miss orman. there should have been trust accounts set up for these children's education, future, not just random checking accounts where stlst there's not some -- >> put the lawyers up. put the lawyers up. i notice that both of you defense lawyers, neither one of you are tackling the potential criminal charges -- >> he walked out of court on his own. he's going to pay that back. if he doesn't, he may have criminal contempt. can't steal your own money. >> as i was saying before i was so rudely interrupted -- >> i'm not rude. >> -- hacking into cell phone

accounts, computer accounts, checking accounts -- >> allegations. >> -- text messaging. to mike brooks. wouldn't that qualify as a felony? >> it depends on the law in the particular state, nancy. it may. it may not. they are husband and wife. it's not like it's boyfriend/girlfriend stalking each other. >> jon and kate need to go into therapy and learn to quit arguing and set a good example for the children. >> how do you feel? do you feel like your kids need therapy? are you seeing any problems? >> well, i'm not a professional, but the hardest thing i ever did was tell them we were get a divorce.

do you want it to stop or do you want it to continue? do you want everything to be

drudged u and embarrassing for your kids and embarrassing for you? please, kate, just let's get off of television and go mediate. what's the big deal? what's there to hide? >> my true nature is to freak out about everything. everything's a big drama. everything -- >> and he's saying that directly into a tv camera. to dr. joseph del tito, professor of psychiatry, doctor, what do you make of it? >> well, these people wouldn't be on the menu if the audience didn't have an appetite for them. and i think the more interesting thing is -- >> so you're blaming the audience? you're blaming the audience? i didn't ask you for a commentary on america. i asked you about -- >> okay. what do i think about them? i think these are lowlife people without -- >> professionally. professionally. >> professionally, it's unclear to say that they're people who have formal personality disorders, but people get caught up in the celebrity. money often corrupts. this whole situation has become corrupted by people who have let it happen, although with

tremendous societal forces behind them and it's unfortunate for the children. in fact, it's criminal for the children. and i consider it child abuse. >> now, why do you consider this child abuse? >> because what's going to happen to these kids? they go to school. they have cousins. they have friends. how are they going to be treated? who's going to tell them about daddy's girlfriend? who's going to make fun of them because of something that their mother does? this is going to follow them throughout their whole life. or at least, let's say, the next 10 or 20 years in all likelihood. this isn't good. >> my kids are coming off tv. i'm not the bad guy here. i'm the one trying to protect my children. that's called being a parent. i'm protecting my children. i need to pull them off of television so we can work this out. ddddddddddddd

they love the camera crew. they love all those guys. they make nicknames for them. you know, the p.a.s, the production assistants there. they play with the kids. we all get along and play together. and it's like a family environment. that's how we work together. it's comfortable for the kids to film. that way there's no animosity. i mean, that's the way it is. >> you put your children on television for years but now suddenly you stick a sign on the house that says you can't film here anymore? is it because it used to be "jon

& kate plus 8," but now it's "kate plus 8" and you're not making any more money? >> absolutely not. i will always make money, and i'm not doing it for the money. i'm doing it to restore family values. i'm -- >> say what? >> i'm doing it to restore family values. i want to -- >> i never thought i'd hear gosselin say he's restoring family values. now, that's a whole other nut to crack. but it's not just a poster anymore. both sides in court just hours ago duking it out in front of a judge, and gosselin files a cease and desist order to tlc to stop filming. i want to go to dr. laura jana, pediatrician, author of "heading home with your newborn: from birth to reality." we see the children acting out more and more. what effect is this having on them? >> you know, nancy -- excuse my lack of voice here. but i certainly have something to say. you know, i think suze said it best. these poor children are living in a state of hate now. and that's never a good environment for children to be raised in. when we're talking about signs that may -- you know, we may see

with the children, acting out is certainly one of them. some physical signs, headaches, stomach aches, problems with eating and sleeping. all those things can be the result of the stress that comes with living in that hateful environment. >> out to the lines. crystal in massachusetts. hi, crystal. >> caller: hi, nancy. i'm so honored to be finally getting through to speak to you. >> well, crystal, i'm honored that you called in. thank you. what's your question, dear? >> caller: actually, i have a comment and a question. >> okay. >> caller: my comment is basically it's amazing to me that they have this type of money to even be arguing about from showing their kids on tv. and i do think it's going to be horrible for them as they get older. but my question is, in court is it actually -- did it have to be proven to the judge where these children's money is? i would think that would be important to the judge. >> i agree. out to child advocate susan moss. explain. >> absolutely. that's probably not coming up in the first instance because they've got some emergencies to deal with, aka the missing money

and getting the missing money back. but as this case progresses, what the judge is going to do, or in this case the arbitrator, is going to look to see what happened to the children's money? is it being segregated? is it being wrongfully included with the parents' money? and if that is in fact the case, then you're really going to see some criminal prosecution. >> to jane velez-mitchell, hln host of "issues." jane, he said to my face that he had business in new york. you know, apartments in new york, a tiny apartment that's this big is about the same amount that you would pay in other cities for a four-bedroom, three-bath with a back yard, with a white picket fence around it. okay? so he has a new york apartment, a nice -- a nice crash pad. all right? it's a pretty good crib there. so what business? what business does he have? what job does he have? he's not on the show anymore. >> he doesn't have a job, and they've stopped taping.

and of course you saw that sign, that infamous sign, where it's like you're not going to tape here, tlc. and i think that's the whole essence of this struggle, is that he doesn't want to be cut out from the show. so -- >> he is cut out from the money. >> -- he's using his kids as a bargaining tool to either get a payoff or get back on the show. that's my theory. >> to senior news editor radaronline.com, maxine page, i do know he is making a multitude of personal appearances for money. in fact, this past weekend he was at millions of milkshakes. it's a milkshake stand in west hollywood. i believe they've named a milkshake after him. now, maxine, take my word for it. he did not show up for free. >> oh, there's no way he was there for free. he's been turning up all over the place. he's been in vegas. the media blitz he did recently. i think it's one of the main reasons that kate's lawyer has filed for alimony and child support because they want to know where this money's going. >> now, it's my understanding also, clark goldband, he's also

on the story, that he wants alimony from her. you know, that's pretty uncommon that the man gets alimony from the mother. >> that's exactly right, nancy. and in fact, we're talking about money that jon says he's owed and hasn't been paid over some months. jon gosselin also saying that in fact all the money is not being accounted for. and nancy, he is really honing in on small details against kate in his latest court filing where he strikes back, in fact even saying kate owes $60,000 from this, took $5,000 from this. so really going after her tit for tat. >> to samantha, south carolina. hi, samantha. >> caller: hi, nancy. >> what's your question, dear? >> caller: i was wondering -- my question is on kate, how she went on the "today show" and complained that she couldn't pay for her bills. how could she not make enough money to pay her bills, even with the $230,000 missing? >> suze orman, could it be true? >> it could be true.

but i just don't think so. i think she was being incredibly dramatic there. she only has $1,000 left and she couldn't even pay the bills that were in her purse. oh, give me a break. she has many accounts. she has said so. don't tell me that she didn't have money somewhere to be able to pay those bills. but it sure made great tv, didn't it? >> sarah in virginia. hi, sarah. >> caller: hi, nancy. >> hi, dear. what's your question? >> caller: yes. i've watched this show, jon and kate, all the time. and everybody's down on jon. has everybody forgot about how she mistreated jon all through that show? >> you know what, sarah? i've had a lot of people bring that up. but my concern, sarah, is not who was the good guy or the bad guy in the marriage. all right? my concern is is there criminal wrongdoing, and will all this

jiggering of the money somehow affect the children? and my guess is it will. you know, i'll give it to you, sarah in virginia. she was not always nice to him. all right? there, does that change anything? you're seeing video of "jon & kate plus 8" on tlc. i want to talk about, very quickly, mike brooks, former fed with the fbi, headline, hln law enforcement analyst. i want to talk about how he could have -- and he is an i.t., information technologist, was for the state of pennsylvania. so he's no idiot. how can someone hack into a computer -- they're separated. all right? they're divorcing. it's not like they're man and wife living together anymore. and i don't know if even then you can lawfully hack into somebody else's e-mail, cell phone, checking account. but how do you do that? he gets an e-mail notification every time she gets an e-mail, sends an e-mail. he knows about all of her texts. at least that's what one of his

girlfriends claims he told her. >> exactly. that's a claim. but nancy, if he had her sign on, let's say for her cell phone number, which also would include the text messaging, he can go in, take a look at the calls, how long they lasted, look at the text messaging on where the text came, how long that lasted and back and forth. and then do a little bit of searching. it doesn't take much. on the number, he can find out who she's talking to. now, it's going to be difficult to see exactly what was said unless you get a subpoena and go to that particular carrier. but when it comes to the bank accounts, you know, he's an i.t. -- you can go in and just over and over again look for different passwords. a lot of people are good at figuring that out, and if he is an i.t. specialist -- >> just let me stop you, mike. >> sure. >> what the claim is that he could read all of her e-mails and her text messages. now, how is that possible? >> he can go in and manipulate the account to say okay and -- basically clone it.

basically clone the account so he gets notified and blind copied and she'd never know it. >> out to lee in virginia. hi, lee. >> caller: hi. thank you for taking my call. longtime fan. >> thank you for calling in, dear. >> caller: i am calling in because i'm curious. i know this is a reality-type show, but do the children fall under the jackie coogan law to protect their assets from their parents? >> excellent question. what do we know about that, raymond giudice? how can they be protected financially in court? >> nancy, earlier it was talked about a guardian ad litem and i threw out the idea of trust accounts for these children. the difference in the jackie coogan case is when he was a child actor his contracts paid him and the parents wasted and squandered the money. i don't know if the children under the contracts are direct recipients of any money. >> what about it, herman? >> ray is right on, nancy. right on the point, right there. >> you're supposed to be a defense attorney. what do you have to say in defense of jon and kate? >> what i'm saying is aren't your hard-working fans nauseated

how much money these people make? it's unbelievable. >> if you listen to your heart and do what's right. she needs to break away from tlc, be her own person, speak from her heart, be the kind person that i know she can be, and let's work this thing out.

police have identified a 3-year-old boy abandoned at a los angeles bus stop and are now working to locate the child's mother, who's missing. little xavier nelson was left at a bus stop around 12:40 a.m. friday night. a witness told cops a woman was sitting next to the boy but when a bus arrived the woman hopped on board, leaving behind the 3-year-old. the witness told cops he yelled to the woman to tell her she forgot the child but the woman just waved him off. now police are desperate to find this woman, who they identify as the child's parent or caregiver. the boy's grandmother says the child's mother, 17-year-old victoria nelson, may be in danger and may have been forced to abandon her son. the grandmother says she hasn't

seen her daughter, victoria, in over a week. >> a 3-year-old baby boy left at the bus stop. mommy gets on the bus, takes off, and literally never comes back. to misti reed, anchor, reporter at k.e.r.n. a.m. 1 80. miti, what happened? >> i'll give a timeline of what exactly transpired that we know of based on police reports. victoria nelson is 17 years old. on i believe it was the 5th she actually told her mother, identified as angela thomas, that at noon she was going to take xavier, 3 years old, to the mall. angela thomas, victoria's mother, never heard or saw from them again. she reported them missing the next day, the 6th. well, the boy turns up at that bus stop in south l.a. just after midnight friday morning. a citizen -- what we're told is a transient actually tried to tell victoria she was forgetting

her child as she got on to a bus, but she waved him off. so he sat with sleeping xavier for about an hour before he finally called police. >> so a transient, a homeless person, basically, tried to tell the mother, hey, hey, hey, you're leaving your kid, you're leaving the baby and she shooed him away and got on the bus and took off? >> that's what police say the witness told police she'd said. and he stayed there for about an hour before he finally turned him over, which is really lucky for that little boy that that man was so nice and kind to do that because that could have been anybody. >> that could have been anybody. a child sex predator, a parolee. it could have been anyone. a dope dealer, a drug addict. god was with xavier that day. to stacy newman, our producer on the story. what can you tell me about her myspace? >> well, her myspace, basically just the typical teenager type myspace page. but one interesting quote she had on there said, "i'm so damn

young, but i do it like a pro." very grown for a 17-year-old girl. >> and what else can you tell me, stacey, about the little boy? who's got the little boy now? is he back with the grandmother? >> he is not back with the grandmother tonight. he's actually with cps tonight. grandmother i believe is probably trying to work out some custody to get this child. >> okay. but didn't the mother and the little boy live with the grandmother already? if there was not something wrong in that home, don't you think, stacey newman, the child would be back in the home? >> i do. and actually, i think police are trying to just sort out what is going on in that home because also we've learned this is not the first time that victoria has taken off with her child. >> let's unleash the lawyers. susan moss, ray giudice, richard herman. susan moss, anybody could have picked that child up. and here she is on her myspace whining that she's so young to have a child. you know what? it's too late for the whining. >> absolutely.

this child learned the hard way that the wheels on the bus go round and round. but he's not alone because there's a sibling. there's a little baby, 11-month-old child, and that child also will be taken away from her custody. you know, maybe family reunification will work, and maybe the grandmother will get custody. but only after we check and make sure that these people aren't a danger to both these kids. >> i just don't understand, dr. deltito, how you could leave your child sitting there and just looking back at it just get on the bus and leave. >> well, there are some people who lack empathy, lack sympathy. and remember, we don't really know what happened. maybe she was in trouble. maybe someone was after her -- >> whoa, whoa, whoa. put deltito up. no witness says that someone forced the mother on the bus -- >> no, i'm just saying we should keep an open mind. chances are this is not a caring mother who's worried about the kid. but it could have been at the

moment someone was after both of them, she thought the kid was safer just not with her by her side. there's just too much you don't know. >> dr. deltito, wait a minute. wait a minute. >> yes. >> she had the grandmother at home, where the child lived, where the other child was. so you're actually telling me with a straight face that she could have thought it was better to leave the child with a homeless man at a public bus station in south l.a. than at home with the grandmother? >> i leave open the 1% possibility that maybe she saw someone in the bus station, someone was following her, she thought she was in danger -- >> please put deltito up. >> -- they may hurt the child. i'm not saying i believe that's the most likely scenario, but there may be a scenario like that boiling around here. in all likelihood she was someone who abandoned her child, plain and simple, because of her own, who knows, hedonistic interests, but we don't know. and i think we should keep an

open mind. >> i know what the witnesses said. and the witnesses said, ray giudice, richard herman, susan moss, that she sat undisturbed at a bus stop with the child, who finally fell asleep. a bus came up, she got on, they tried to show her you're leaving your child, she shooed them away and left the boy and never came back. a 3-year-old child. what's she look at, herman? >> we don't know that this was the mother, nancy. we don't know who this woman was that got on that bus that was with that child. we don't know if victoria nelson's alive as we do the show right now. let's step back for a moment. let's let the investigation take parse. >> would you like to try to take a stab at the actual question, ray? >> nancy, every greyhound bus station, trailways, has videotape. there will be videotape showing anyone she talked to, her demeanor. coupled with that facebook quote, i see casey anthony syndrome here. thank goodness the child is healthy and well taken care of.

>> to misti reed with k.e.r.n. a.m. 1180. they are saying station. i thought it was a bus stop. >> yeah. it's a bus stop. on the corner of florence avenue and broadway specifically in south l.a. >> that's right on the street. that child could have stepped right out in to the street. >> that's correct. but as the report says, he was asleep on the bench when she did leave him. >> to maria in new mexico. hi, maria. >> hi, nancy. wow, i can't believe i'm talking to you. i want to say i greatly appreciate everything that you do for the kids. i appreciate it so much. i really do. >> i can't take any credit. you know i'm a crime victim. >> caller: you tell people like it is.

my question is, who actually found the baby like did someone get the baby -- did the police see the baby from the bus stop? >> tell us again how the baby was save? >> by a homeless man sitting at the bus stop. he watched as the mom took off. she looked him in the eye, waved. he waited there for a full hour hoping she would come back. when she didn't, he took the little boy to lapd.

coming up next, jon and kate face off over a big money battle. a new letterman intern poll as you. is barbie too fat? the brand new outrage over the doll and weight at the top of the hour. hi, doris. >> high nancy, how are you? >> i'm good. what's your question? >> caller: i'm asking, i'd like to know why the baby wasn't automatically turned over to the grandmother because the child was already traumatized when he woke up in the armless of a stranger and then to be placed with child services. i know there are federal laws that say children should be

placed with biological relatives before strangers. >> to mike brookes with the fbi, why do you suppose that you've dealt with these types of cases, that the child didn't go straight back to the home of the grandmother? >> i think stacey was right. law enforcement is trying to sort this all out before they make sure they are not putting the child and the little siblings back in the home where they will both be in danger. >> but misty reid, there's another siblings there? >> there's an 11-month-old, who up until today, was living with the grandmother. she was taken as well, from cps this morning and they haven't released details on why. they keep a tight lip on reasons for why they do what they do. as of right now, none of victoria's children are with any of the biological relatives. the tipline -- let's stop and remember army private first class justin

davis, just 19. from gay thersberg, maryland. the bronze heart metal army service ribbon. lost his life hours after calling home to wish someone happy woik. loved kung fu movies. his hero, god, martin luther king jr. and bruce lee. dreams of going to college and becoming an actor. he's an only child and leaves behind his parents, paula and dennis. justin davis, american hero. thanks to our requests and especially you, and good night from georgia friends of the show, amy, jennifer. aren't they beautiful? and special good night to elana and including seniors like 95-year-old anne. and they never miss a show. and thank you to connecticut friend, rose, for these beautiful little hats and mitt

ten -- mitt tens for the twins. we'll see you tomorrow. until then, good night, friend. here's what's coming up on "showbiz tonight." today, jon and kate battle it out in court over money. 140u8d kate pay jon spousal support. and tonight, does a big-time university really making changes to its intern program because letterman slept with his former intern? that's your showbiz news break

at the top of the hour here on hln.