breaking news tonight. a 5-year-old little girl tucked into bed. five hours later, she's gone, vanished. the backdoor propped wide open. daddy comes home from the night shift to find, not a trace of hill haleigh. the last person to see her alive, the stepmother, misty croslin. she flies to new york, taking to the air to declare she's innocent. but, even in one brief interview, she can't keep her

stories straight. she says the other side of the family took haleigh. then a 180 on the failed lie detector, claiming she passed, then admitting she failed. after her brother tells cops he was at the home that night, no sign of croslin, completely debunking her story. her mother says she's not coming clean. the tv response, they betrayed me. they are the bad guys. look at them, don't look at me. minutes after the debuckle on national tv, her lawyer dumps her. bombshell, tonight. we know when ever the investigation heats up, croslin goes awol. tonight, her wingman, the woman who took her to new york was working under cover to befriend her and get the truth. did it work?

this while haleigh's dad stands by his new bride. sources reveal in a fit of depression, cummings threatens to shoot croslin dead, if she's responsible. in the last hours, croslin and cummings file divorce papers in a florida court. what does it mean to the investigation? croslin claims the holes in the story have nuting to do with the split. have cummings worst fears been confirmed, that his new wife, misty croslin was involved in the disappearance of his own 5-year-old little girl. >> i mean, i don't want a divorce, but it's what he wants, so, whatever. breaking news. the divorce papers between ronald cummings and the last person to see haleigh alive. >> she looked them over. she took them to a notary,

brought them back signed. the two of us agreed to go separate ways and just -- with the family problems and everything else, it's too much on the relationship. >> does ron still believe misty? sources emerge that gun threats, allegations his attorney denies. what happened? >> why does ron continue to say he's supporting misty and he's not concern wd the inconsiste y inconsistencies in the story? he's providing cover. he's probably his own worst enmy at this point. >> tips flooding in from the nation. tips from all over. will she be question ed by florida police? >> she has something to do with it. now, this kind of just proves it. i mean, her stories just don't

add up. >> if this girl keeps doing what she's doing, it's only a question of time before she's charged with something having to do with this kids disappearance. she repeatedly contradicts herself. >> tonight, live to pennsylvania, two mentally handicapped teens with the minds of a third and sixth grader vanish. tonight, the search for two helpless handicap teens. where are charms and donna? pennsylvania police are searching for two mentally disabled teens who vanished friday night. 18-year-old charles and 17-year-old donna headed out for a walk and haven't been seen since. a massive search was launched over the weekend the emergency

workers, firefighters and residents scouring the area for clues. they both have a sixth grade mental capacity. they are desperate to find them. the police will continue looking until the pair is found. good evening, i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. did a female friend go undercover to get the truth about the disappearance of 5-year-old haleigh? >> everybody knows that i loved haleigh and ronald and junior. >> the last person to see haleigh alive is the last person to sign divorce papers. >> i think we both agreed on it. >> who brought it up, first? >> i did. >> the divorce now filed. will it boost the investigation into what happened to 5-year-old haleigh? >> i feel like it's on the other side of the family that has her. that's how i feel. >> do you feel police have

looked at everyone they need to look at? >> i don't think they looked at everyone as close as they have me. >> now, misty croslin's mom was transferred from a tennessee jail. what does she know? >> if this family is willing to betray each other over getting a get out of jail free card, what does it say about her and who she is willing to betray? is she betraying ron or haleigh? >> tips pour in, including possible haleigh sightings on video. >> i believe she is alive. i have faith in god to take care of my baby girl and find her. >> straight out to art harris at artharris.com. i understand this is your story that you break that the wingman, the so-called friend that went to orlando and new york with misty was actually undercover?

explain? >> that's right. according to tim miller, she was working all the time to get close to misty so she could possibly glean information about what misty may know happened to haleigh. this was not known to police, per se, she was not an agent for police. she was working at equusearch in an attempt to find out what she could learn by getting close to misty. >> where did donna go with misty? where did they travel? >> she picked her up and they went to orlando, they wound up at universal, cocoa beach. they were on the road when everyone thought misty was on the road. she was wired money to get her to get her hair and nails done to get close to her. misty was warming up closely to donna. it was working until the road

rage incident outed them both. >> wait a minute. are you telling me the so-called undercover friend was the friend in the road rage incident that was driving? >> that's right. they were on interstate 4 when according to tim miller, someone tried to run them off the road, donna pulls along the car and gave the driver the finger. then misty gives them the finger. >> yeah, i heard the whole thing. i interviewed the woman who called the police. art, you are trying to tell me they were the victim? how come the pharmaceutical sales rep called the police to rat herself out? >> it depends on how threatened donna felt. she didn't feel threatened enough to call the police. according to her, it was the other driver. >> before we go off on the road rage incident, i want to go back to this. did it work?

did donna brock get anything out of croslin? >> unfortunately, it didn't work at all. all that happened, she got to travel around with misty, get to know her a little. all she could gather is misty has a temper no one has seen. there's been no new information that came from this new friendship. >> what do you mean by temper? >> she witnessed a couple conversations misty had, while they were on the road, with ronald. she got hostile at times and witnessed her not being very even tempered. >> take a listen to what one alleged victim had to say. >> it's a caliber, a dodge caliber.

>> to top it all off, while ronald cummings publicly stood by misty croslin, now, we learn

a threat. art harris, what can you tell us? >> that's right. tim miller went back to the house where ron was living with misty. ronald took an assault rifle from his closet. two clips, 32 bullets in each, he threatened to blow her teeth out of the back of her head if he learned she had anything to do with haleigh. that's when he became afraid that if anything happened to misty, the case would go down the tubes and they would never find out what happened to halei haleigh. police believe she's holding more information than she's revealing. he let donna go on the road with misty to see what she could get out of her and away from ronald cummings. >> your client is certainly up in the investigation, hiring someone and paying a woman to go undercover to get the truth

autoof misty croslin. when he says he observed him with a weapon, i thought the cops took all the weapons out of the home the night haleigh went miss i missing. >> i think if he could do a run, he would have. he told the police about this. at the time, the focus was on her polygraph, her voice stress analysis, the hypnosis. he let them know a month or so later, whoa, there's a rifle in that closet and there's another child in the house. at the time, the focus was really on what is misty holding back and what is she not telling anybody? >> why won't she come and sit down with police and talk to them? >> i can't answer for you. i'm sure that maybe her attorney can answer it for you. we have talked to her about talking to the police. >> what does she say? >> she says she talked to them.

i got up because i had to use the bathroom, but didn't make it to the bathroom. i saw the light on and walked into the kitchen and the backdoor was open. >> she said when she woke up, she always had the lights out. she made it around the corner. she noticed the backdoor was open and that's when she ran back to the bedroom and haleigh

wasn't in there. >> i didn't notice it until i saw the backdoor open and she's gone. that's all i know. >> went to haleigh's room. she wasn't in there and that's when she started calling. >> ronald has a theory misty left the home sometime been disproved. >> i'm not sure that i believe it has, nancy. i'm almost 100% sure but i wouldn't tell you that and lie to you. >> she is scared of the dark. she wouldn't go anywhere by herself. >> get up and walk out that door in the middle of the night by herself. >> do you believe she left the home and left the children alone, ronald? >> absolutely not. >> we are taking your calls live. out to ellen in california. hi, ellen. >> caller: i love your show, nancy and thank you for taking

my call. >> thank you for calling in. >> caller: the twins are beautiful. >> they are going to be 3 in a few weeks. >> caller: lucy looks just like you. >> that's a complement to me. thank you. >> caller: lucky lucy. >> thank you, what's your question, dear? >> caller: i think misty's stories don't jive because i think she's learning disabled. >> why do you say that? >> caller: remember the 911 call, they asked for her address. >> yes. >> caller: she gave the street. the 911 operator asked for the numerical. she said what's that. >> all right, to our chief editorial producer who's been following the story from the beginning? is there a sign she's disabled?

if she is, she's thrown off the cops for about nine months. >> no reports about that. we know, all though she's only 17 years old, dropped out of school, has not gone for some time. she may have dropped out as early as the sixth grade. >> art harris, is that true? >> i have spoken to her grandmother who raised her during those crucial years of grammar school. she said she had a hard time with her homework. she had to sit down with her and misty begged her to help her. she says she has learning disabilities and her parents did not make her go to school. this is a young women, a young girl who has not had the best education, nancy. >> out to peggy, washington state. hi, peggy. >> caller: hi nancy, i love your show the best. there's never any of the political stuff on it.

it's interesting things. >> thank you very much. i absolutely do not like politics. i do not believe either side, the republicans or democrats, i think they are all lying. there you have it. what's your question, love. >> caller: back when haleigh was first discovered missing, it was close to a week that two cadaver dogs hit on the dumpster that was like -- >> right. >> caller: what i thought at the time and never heard, when did the dumpster get emptied? these dogs are usually right. >> what about it. elly? >> we heard there was a hit by the dogs on the dumpster. they thoroughly checked out the dumpster and were not able to find signs of dna, blood, anything like that. they also went and checked the dump where the dumpster would be

emptied and didn't find anything, either. >> it was dumped like two days before. >> that's rikt. >> mike brooks, what do you make of the divorce and your experience in handling cases like this. how will it affect the investigation? >> if at all, it could help the investigation. ronald, the withhold relationship has been tumultuous. ronald is not there to protect her, if you will, maybe she'll open up. instead of going to the morning show with cbs, she should have been talking to the sheriff about where haleigh is, period. >> they have been on me for six months. i have been the main focus. they need to move on and look for the right person.

do not lie to me. you have never lied to me before, to my knowledge. don't tell me that you didn't know police wanted to talk to her, again. we all know it. we talked about it on national tv. now, i'm telling you police want to talk to her. why is she in orlando and not speaking to police. >> that, i'm not sure, miss nancy. i said, same as teri, it's probably due to his attorney, his advice. >> let's unleash the lawyers.

renee rock well veteran attorney and doug burns, former federal prosecutor, now defense attorney in the new york jurisdiction. renee, let's talk about statements misty croslin, probably, most likely, made to the new friend who was paid by a private citizen to go undercover to get the truth. she's not a cop. not under cover law enforcement. anything she says to this woman, donna, can come in trial. >> i agree with that. i think, even if it was a police plant, that those statements would come in, also. there's no rules against somebody trying to set up somebody or trying to trick them into telling them the truth. >> you're right. doug burns, you have to be in custody, right, and a target before your mir ran da rights

kick in. >> law enforcement may not be able to get somebody to get something out of her. >> this wasn't law enforcement? >> i know. renee was saying you could do it willy nilly. i'm not sure i agree. >> is there any possibility she left the home that evening and hasn't told you? >> if there is a possibility of it, i don't know anything about it.

what time was haleigh last seen by anybody other than cummings and croslin? >> the last time i seen her was -- >> i didn't ask when you saw her. certainly, you as the bilogical mother know the facts of this case. when was she last seen by someone other than the father and stepmother? >> that, i don't know. >> have you asked her what happened? what does she tell you? >> i ask her, but i don't get

any answers from her about, you know, what she's telling me is not inconsistent. >> bottom line, you don't know where haleigh is? >> bottom line. >> she tells me the same thing every time i ask her about it. >> she's the last one to see our daughter and her stories don't add up. >> you have been in the trailer just like we have been. somebody pounding on the front door as close as her bed was to the front door, you would hear it. it's ten feet away. >> i think the children would be more likely to hear it. >> one way or another, i want my daughter to come home. i just don't know where my 5-year-old daughter has gone. >> listen to me -- >> if i find whoever has my daughter before you do, i'm killing him. you can put it on recording, i

don't care. >> it's okay, sir. we've got them on the way. okay, can you give me any, why kind of description of her pajamas. >> marc klaas is with us. marc, you went through much the same thing when your daughter went missing many years ago. how do you compare all these people's behavior to what you think should be the goal standard. >> first of all, i didn't have somebody like tim miller come in and play dangerously with the lives of my family, insert his amateurs in and betray us on a variety of levels time after time. these are very vulnerable people we are dealing with here. there's a little girl missing. he's supposed to be running a search operation. i run one. he's putting all of us in

jeopardy because we require the trust and cooperation of law enforcement in the family when ever we get called into one of these cases. he's breaking that down. if i were the putnam county sheriff, i would consider arresting tim miller for interfering in an investigation. i'm outraged by the things i have heard. before anybody gets too far off on misty, i quite frankly, don't believe her story either. my daughter was kidnapped in her bedroom while her mother slept ten feet away. the same thing happened to elizabeth smart. entire families slept through kidnappings. it's not impossible. >> what about it, martin. you are the attorney for tim miller. how did he come up with the concept, martin, in response to

marc klaas' questioning, to plant someone under cover against misty croslin. >> as outrageous and mr. klaas' statements. >> if you could focus on the question. >> he's found 102 people to date. you think outside the box. law enforcement was at a dead end. to find a child, you use any legal means necessary. there's not a rule book that says you can only do it one way. he should be applauded for doing what it took to find a missing or dead child. to be criticized is wrong and outrageous. >> ellie, i want to go back to what ronald cummings said. publicly, he stands by misty

croslin, privately, according to miller, he threatened to blow her head off, if she was involved. doesn't sound like he believes her story. >> according to tim miller, he says ronald cummings said he would blow her teeth out through the back of her head, if he finds out she did it. ron does not remember making the statements. if he did, it was similar to the 911 call, it was emotional. he said, if i find whoever did this, i'm going to kill them, i don't care if i go to prison. >> what about it, psychologist karen stark. weigh in. >> somebody can be emotionally upset, but they don't tell people they are going to kill them or blow their teeth in or that stuff is going to happen. so, i really think that this is such a travesty and such a circus that i'm waiting for the acrobats to come in.

it's one ridiculous story on top of the other. it's ludicrous. what about haleigh, isn't she supposed to be the focus? misty is covering up. someone should be really, really paying attention to what happened to her. what can we do to find out about her? and forget about who is killing whom and everybody blaming everybody else. >> to hart harris, he's been there in sut -- what, if any difference will the divorce make? they have filed for divorce in a florida courthouse. >> it's keeping misty on edge. it's hopefully what police are counting on to perhaps get cooperation. i can tell you, she has met with police, with this undercover friend and i'm told they told her, warned her that she could get life in prison, if they are able to make a case against her.

>> to doctor jennifer, pediatrician and author, what would be haleigh's needs. let's assume the child is alive. >> she has turners syndrome. ovaries that don't function. they can get heart problems, thyroid disorder and diabetes. if she's not getting regular medical care, she could get sick and die in a short period of time. >> out to the lines. lena, hi. >> caller: hello. >> what's your question. >> caller: i was wondering, misty's brother said he knocked on one door and didn't get a response. did he go to the other door? wouldn't people naturally check the other door? >> he didn't go to the other

door. he only knocked on the front door, according to him. >> to cheryl in michigan. >> caller: hi, nancy. >> what's your question? >> first of all, i love your question. if they suspect misty, how come they haven't charged her with anything after the fact. >> repeat the question. if the mother and brother know something, why haven't they charged him? >> caller: or threatened to charge them? >> with what? >> caller: knowing information after the fact? >> in our legal system, renee, nobody is under a duty to be a good samaritan and come forward. if you are under oath, on the stand, and you lie, that's perjury. if you are under oath on the stand and refuse to answer, it's contempt. other than that, what else can they do? >> i think it's interesting, the

dynamic you have now. you have mom that's in jail. she's got $100,000 bond. she's about to be brought down to florida. i clearly think they will approach her and say, do you want to get out of jail? you need to tell us something. her husband is gone. her friend is a plant from tim miller's equusearch. i think it's getting close to her cracking. >> doug burns, my question was, is there a way these people, if they know something, can be charged with not giving up information? >> you said it perfectly. you are not required to come forward. if you conceal information, it becomes a felony. the point is, the police ask, did you speak to mr. a, b or c, no i didn't. >> what if you don't say anything at all. >> you are right. >> quick break.

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authorities are desperately searching for two disabled teens that vanished friday night. an 18-year-old and 19-year-old were last seen around 6:30 p.m. friday. nearly 100 searchers including

firefighters, emergency mana management and volunteers spent the weekend searching for the teens. workers went door-to-door and used search dogs looking for clues. police say they will continue to search for the pair who both have a sixth grade mental capacity. >> straight out to bob matthews, from news talk 840, what happened. >> basically, they were getting together on friday night, going over to visit the young man's grandmother. they were gathered outside the grandmother's house. they were missing. they didn't know where they got to. maybe they took a walk or wandered off in the woods. the family started to look for them and started to panic when they couldn't find them.

his father was running into the woods and said he heard his son screaming out. they started to panic but didn't call police or fire officials until the next day. >> now, bob matthews, joining us from wpvo from pennsylvania, what did the father claim to have heard the son calling out? any words? >> he said he heard him calling daddy, daddy, daddy. he heard it again. the third time he heard daddy, dad -- then it stopped abruptly. his father became worried and started searching frantically. >> what can you tell us about their mental problems. back to bob matthews, bob, what more can you tell me?

what is the type of area? where are they missing and number two, why did they wait until the next day to call police? >> let's talk about the area where they went missing. it's a rural development. there are woods and swamps and bushes and clips out when you get into the deeper terrain. other than that, their house is mixed in. it's not like they are in the middle of a forest. what happened, from what i heard, there were conflicting stories as to why they didn't go to the police right away. some said they were nervous. some thought they could find them on their own. when they didn't come home and they couldn't find them, they said they ought to call somebody and called the police. >> bob, that doesn't make sense. what would they be nervous about? >> some people involved in the case, and again, this is here

say. i got this information from a third party, they said they had had some activity in the past with law enforcement. but they didn't go into specifics or details. some people speculate they were afraid to go to authorities because they thought they were going to get in some kind of trouble. >> to mike brooks, formerly with the fbi. what do you make of it? these are two teens with the minds of a sixth and third grader. they are helpless. >> absolutely. in d.c., if we were looking for them, even if they thought they might have run away or what the circumstances would be, it was classified as a critical missing person because of their mental capacity. it doesn't add up to me. it doesn't make sense. it could cost these children their lives for not calling the police when they should have called. >> to marc klaas, your expertise is looking for lost children.

what should be done and what has gone wrong? >> i think mike hit the nail on the head when he said the delay in contacting law enforcement was a critical mistake. they can ask all property managers, real estate agents, farmers, ranchers, anybody with access to unoccupied properties. check to see if they are there. they understand the need to get shelter, i'm sure. it could be one place to start. it could solve the case. >> bob, i heard a report, but i want to confirm it with you. there are a lot of vacation homes in that area, about 3,000 homes is my understanding. is it true, one of the homes appears to have been used by the teens?

they have been in there? >> the latest information we have, there are a lot of homes in the area that have been foreclosured upon. there are vacant homes. state police say based on eyewitness accounts and people who saw the two youngsters, they stayed in one of the homes saturday. when they went to investigate, the youngsters already went. police are saying right now, they think there are somewhere within the development. that's why, with a program like yours and others, they are try ing to gelt the word out in case they managed to slip out or out and about somewhere and as you mentioned a short time ago, the elements up there, the temps are supposed to drop into the low, around freezing, maybe the low 30s, upper 120s by the weekend. it's imperative they find them quickly. if they are in a home, the homes probably don't have the heat on and some don't have electricity on. that could pose a further

danger. >> we are talking about two teens with the mental capacity of a third grader and sixth grader. if they don't find shelter, they are in the completely helplessd missing now for several days. tip line, 570-646-2271. how do people like this make their way in society. there's a third grade mentality and a sixth grade meantity. >> they get a lot of support and they need people around them who are helping them. a nice thing is they found each other so they can support each other. what concerns me is they were yelling out. >> if they had fallen prey to a predator their moral support to each other is not going to account for very much. >> to renee rockwell. can the family be held responsible for not reporting them missing for so long? >> i would think so, nancy. this would be tantamount to not

reporting a third grader and a sixth grader missing. >> everybody, as we go to break, we are taking your calls and i want to wish a very happy birthday to texas friend, sue. she never misses the show. sue, happy birthday.

orally tats. tats.

charlie lockard and donna kiernan, 18 and 19 years old respectively are mentally challenged and comprehend at the sixth grade level. they went for a walk in the indian lake development friday afternoon and didn't return. >> i just want her to come home. that's all i want. or at least call me, please let me know she's okay. i'll come and get her. >> i just want her home so i can hold her. she's my daughter. she's my baby. donna, please come home. please.

>> these two children need your help so desperately. they look like teenagers, but they are mentally handicapped. they have the mind of a third grader and a sixth grader. if thai can't find shelter or if they have fallen prey to a freddor god only knows what has happened to them. the tip line, 570-646-2271. to elaine in texas. hi, elaine. >> caller: hi, nance pep it's so good to be on your show. i love your show. i watch it every day. your kids are so beautiful. >> thank you. >> caller: i just want to know why it took the parents so long to report them missing and also, would they know their phone number or their address or know a way to get home? >> to bob matthews, would they know -- do they know enough to know their address if they're asked? >> well, they both know what everybody keeps talking about, the third and the sixth grader.

they're both pretty sharp. they are functional, and from what i'm told donna marie kiernan really loves school, really pays attention and she's a pretty sharp girl. hopefully, i mean, i don't know for sure, but hopefully they know some people in the area. >> weigh in, doctor. a 4-year-old or 5-year-old knows their phone number and know their address. so i would think they know it whether they have access to a phone, i'm worried about. you can go two days without water and get dehydrated. i also worry about hypothermia for them and maybe getting themselves injured in the woods. so i think it is important to find them quickly. everyone, let's stop and remember marine lance corporal garrett garner, 20, killed iraq. from a long line of vets who served in both world wars, korea, vietnam. loved fishing with his dad, knotts berry farm, pro-wrestling, the dodgers. favorite music, rap.

broth brotheric, fiancee april and his beloved jack russell terrier scratchy. derek gardner, american hero. thanks to our guests and especially you for being with us. our thoughts and prayers with florida friend, legal analyst bill schaeffer, final surgery today. bill, stay strong and we are praying for you. everyone, i'll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp eastern. until then, good night, friend. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com tonight on "the joy behar show." the first pictures of kidnap victim jaycee dugard have surfaced in "people" magazine, she looks great, but what's going on behind that smile? also massachusetts congressman barney frank joins me and we'll talk our way from gay rights to health care reform. and america's one-time favorite tv team and current diet queen, valerie bertinelli discusses her

new book.

jaycee dugard was out of sight for 18 years. she was kidnapped by a real-life monster, but she's finally back and recovering from her ordeal. plus, i'll talk to congressman barney frank about why he thin s s sunday's gay rights march was all about the grass. her new love, actress valerie bertinelli. all this and so much more tonight. i want to start tonight by showing you a picture.

it's the cover of "people" magazine. it shows the first picture of jaycee dugard since she was freed from captivity as a sex slave. this poor girl was kidnapped nearly 20 years ago and allegedly held by this low life creep, phillip garrido and his wife in a disgusting backyard prison. joining me to discuss this unbelievable case is stays, and cooper lawrence, development psychology researcher and radio talk show host. okay. betsy, let me start with you since people magazine got the cover of this. >> right. >> was the girl, jaycee, was she worried about doing this at all? >> i think this is a very long process. she's just at the beginning of this process of reuniting with her family. there's been intense media interest in her, and i think she wanted to kind of control her own story a little bit and show the world that she's okay. >> uh-huh. did "people" magazine pay her to do it? >> "people" like other news

outlets sometimes pays for photographs, but beyond that i can't get into the details. >> well, they might have needed the money, the family. they could use it. before we go to the next thing, some people wonder if jaycee should have done the spread, but the family spokesman, spokesperson defended it on "good morning america." why did she decide to let her face be seen now. >> she wants to maintain her privacy and not really step into the spotlight. she did want to thank everyone and let everyone see how happy she is and how -- how much she's enjoying this and how glad she is to be home. >> cooper, do you think she should have done this? >> no. i question her decision making ability to begin with. i think that she's been victimized enough and the more scrutiny she has to endure, because when you put yourself out in the media people have an opinion about you and i don't think she's in a opinion now that she's ready to hear all that, maybe later on, but this just happened.

>> do you disagree with that? >> i think these are beautiful, sensitive pictures, accurately handled and i think the only opinion anybody can possibly have about her is oh, my god, thank goodness she's okay. >> i know, but don't you think the media attention hurts the child? i mean, she's really healing. i think she might want to be private. her family might want to be private. >> i think it was their way -- we live in this intensely media-saturated world. it is her way of controlling it of saying people are going to find me, people are stalking me. people want to take my picture. here are the pictures i want to show the world. over and out. >> yeah. all right. take a look at the age progression picture of jaycee that the police compiled next to the real photo from "people" magazine. look at that, that is incredible, i think. you watch these type of things on television on law ask order and they show you somebody drawing what he's going to look like. it's unbelievable that they could be that accurate.

>> think she looks better now. i can't believe those years of stress didn't really have an impact on her. she actually looks pretty good. so i know why having the pictures out is a good thing, but psychologically, i don't think she's in a position to put herself out there yet. >> was her family hesitant about it at all? >> yeah, i mean -- she was rescued about two months ago. this is the very first moment that she has been out there. >> yeah. >> and she's barely out there. these are photographs. these are not her, parading in the street and, you know, i think she's taking it very slowly. >> she is. >> but do you think there's a risk, cooper, of this young girl, jaycee actually being angry in her life that she was not rescued by neighbors and the police? i mean, they really were rather ineffective in rescuing this girl all these years. >> the american journalist family therapy published a very interesting study about kids who are abducted and re-introduced to families and they found there's more stress in that

because they don't know how to be with this family. the trauma they suffered initially, they haven't really had a chance to snuff out that trauma and figure out how it affected them and now they're being traumatized all over again, so i think the process is a long one, and i think she really needs some time to figure it all out and to get over the anger that she will be feeling. it's inevitable. >> she's got to be furious. >> of course, she's a human being. she's got to be furious. >> i mean, we don't know what happened to her during those 18 years. it's impossible almost to imagine what was going on now. >> she had two children with this monstrous guy. i mean, we pretty much know that at this point. >> beyond that, she looks remarkably well. we don't know the details. >> we don't know what's going on inside of her psychologically and think about this. she was abducted and she had to spend time with the person who abducted her while she was going through the possibly post-traumatic stress with no

help other than to stay with the person who did this to her. >> so i think there is a lot of anger underneath that needs to come out. >> do you think the parents should go to through therapy also? >> have to. >> family therapy. >> just the guilt alone. the biological dad found out later on, imagine, if i was in her life, could i have protected her? she ed needs that support system. >> she needs to be allowed to express that range in the therapy session, i think. >> absolutely. >> on "the today show," the dugard family spokesperson said the family is doing very well, listen. >> i have seen a family they think if you didn't know the circumstances it would just seem like any other family, just, you know, the love between jaycee and her mother and her sister who was an infant when jaycee was taken have formed a very, very close bond and to see them

all embrace jaycee's daughters and the five of them are just very close and comfortable and happy. >> maybe. they're happy to have her back, i think, but i think it's unrealistic to say that everyone will stay happy because it's going to hit the fan very shortly, i think. >> it's just happening now, plus the research shows that families like this do go through levels of guilt and anger and as they progress and as they develop as a family the important thing is that she knows they're there and they're a foundation, wherever they go from here to point b, you know, it's a good start. >> well, let's talk about the two children that this garrido allegedly fathered while she was in captivity. i understand that they are at normal academic level, these girls. >> apparently they are. >> how do you explain that. she was a child herself and she was raising two babies, infants and they actually are at normal academic level.

is it just genetic? they're just smart kids? what happened there, do you think? do you know? >> we don't know. what our story sxsz what we have been told is that they're really intellectually curious. they want to learn. they are already receiving some tutoring and you have to imagine that jaycee herself was like that during the 18 years. >> wow! she could give herself a lot of credit, that kid, for what she did for those two girls in that situation. it just breaks your heart, doesn't it? >> she clearly protected them because if they are reaching all of the developmental milestones, clearly somebody was there to help them along. so it is to her credit. >> she's a good mother. sad, but -- sad story. thanks very much for being here. >> we'll be right back with congressman barney frank.

health care reform cleared a big hurdle yesterday when the senate finance committee passed the baucus bill. by the way, baucus means no public option. joining us to discuss it is barney frank, representative from massachusetts and the chairman of the house financial services committee. congressman, what happened to the public option? >> well, i've been working mostly on the regulatory reform and i'm glad to say that we just earlier today finished work on the bill that required most of them to go on an exchange and that's a great event. the problem with the public option is the senate finance

committee is a conservative committee than the senate as a whole. the committees are not absolute remri qaas of the whole senate. the public lost in that committee 1310. i believe that if you go to the whole senate, there would be a majority and then you don't have 60 and that's the dynamic they're fighting for and the question is the finance committee is one of the more conservative committees and the democrats are more conservatives and the vote could be different on the floor of the senate. >> at the end of day don't we need olympia snowe's vote and she said she would never vote for a public option. it sounds like you're not going get it. >> you're asking me of an issue that i am not involved in the financial regulation and it's also the senate and not the house. it's one of the institutional flaws here is the senate and house don't interact the way they should. but she has been talking about some version of it and there's a twofold version here, joy. it is conceivable that some

democrats, for example, would vote to break the filibuster who would then vote against the bill. it's actually a two-step process. you don't technically need 60 votes to pass the bill. you need 60 votes to be able to get the vote on the bill so it's theoretically possible to get 60 votes to break the fill buster and then pass the bill with 56 or 57 votes. there may be some democrats willing to do that who would say, look, we don't think we should filibuster this to death. it's the final bill. the other issue is this, the house and nancy pelosi has been very strong on this. we are very much committed to a public option. the main argument that the conservatives make is that people might like it. they're afraid it would be too popular. there were inconsistent arguments and everybody will hate it and then it will become so popular it will swamp everybody else. it's in the high 50s and you get a strong house vote, maybe you'll get it. >> i thought the republicans were afraid of competition, why are they for the public option

in that's capitalism. why are they scared of it. >> because for a lot of american bees, capitalism is a spectator sport. they like to watch other people engage in it, but they like to sit in the stands and eat a hot dog. >> i see. do you think the negativity about health care reform in general is over now? has that been pretty much put down, un-american, et cetera? >> not entirely. there are still people who are very angry that they've lost power. there are people on the right who, frankly, they're upset about the culture. they're upset that gay people aren't being shunned. they're upset that women are enjoying the right to make decisions about themselves. they're upset that movies and books, they don't want to see or read are being seen and read by other people and always making them go. so i think that sort of spills over into this kind of anger, but i do think that some of the wiser conservatives and i think the conservatives made a big mistake morally as well as tactically and they were benefitting from the crazies, and i think they realized that

got in the way of the rational arguments that they wanted to try to make. so i think you will still see some of the negativity, but it won't be as supported by the republican apparatus as it was. >> okay. now, i know you're for gay rights and all of that, but a lot of gay rights supporters were upset with what you said about the gay rights march this sunday. let me play what you said just to remind the viewers. >> barack obama doesn't need any pressure these things. secondly, if you do want to pressure congress i don't know why standing on a weekend when no member of congress is in town is going to do. all that's going to pressure is the grass. >> i work very hard on these issues, we just succeeded and i did a lot of work along with others, and the other openly gay and lesbian people and the leadership of nancy pelosi other and, we're about to have signed by the president the first bisexual and transgendered people against prejudice and we

had a good hearing to prevent discrimination in employment including people who were transgender and i just spoke to the chairman of that committee about getting that hearing -- we had a good hearing and getting that marked up. early income year we'll be moving on to don't ask don't tell. president obama is trying. the problem is not president obama, it's getting to the 67 votes and the only thing i say this to my friends, aren't you mill at that point? i think the most successful militant -- is the rifle association. i disagree with them all of the time, but i have to talk about how effective they are. when was the last time you saw an nra march? there weren't people marching up and down the mall. >> why can't they do both? why can't you lobby and march at the same time? >> most other people have other things to do, they have children, they have jobs and other relationships to worry about. it's human nature. people only do a certain amount of effort. if people do both, it's fine, but i'm afraid that some people will come to washington and

they'll march. that's why i said what i did. marching isn't a negative thing, but to think that having marched they've done something effective, they wouldn't do what is effective and the most effective organization is nra and let me mention aarp. they don't have shoo-iners on shuffle-ins or anything else. they don't make us crazy which is what an american citizen ought to do when he or she is trying to influence the legislature. >> the march is a personal thing. they wanted to show up for support for the whole issue. >> i get that. it's an emotional belief and i'm want opposed to it, but i do believe that human nature being what it is and that's why i spoke out. i didn't say it's a terrible thing. >> right. >> it wasn't in and of itself useful. if people march and in addition to those other thing, then that's fine. >> thanks very much for coming on the show, congressman. >> you're welcome. >> now i want to turn to robert zimmerman, cnn contributor and democratic strategist. let's start with the health care thing. how big a deal was that yesterday? >> it was profoundly

significant, and i have to give individuals like congressman frank who was just with us, enormous credit on health care and gay rights and a whole host of issues, but the baucus committee vote is very critical. we now have achieved more progress for health care than any administration has in 60 years. of course, it's important to remember the baucus bill represents the floor, if you will. that's the bottom line proposal. >> the floor? >> in other words, that presents the more conservative proposal. the house side represents the more liberal proposal, and both houses are going have to come together and make very tough negotiations and very tough compromises. for example, you saw the baucus bill that does reduce the cost of health care spending and does exclude the public option now being attacked by both the right wing and the left wing. >> what does the right wing have against it? >> it's very interesting. first of all, you've got to remember, the right wing said we can't support a public option. so the public option was removed. this compromise of co-op plans were proposed. >> right. >> this could be voluntarily

created by groups, communities or businesses and then, of course, the republican conservatives came back and said okay, we can't support that either and senator grassley who was a leader in the so-called bipartisan movement came home and got heat from the extreme right wing of the state and then backed away from it. >> i see. >> it's very interesting. >> at least we're past the death panel conversations. i think we've moved -- it seems it has moved. >> the dialogue has moved without the republicans, which sun fortunate with the exception of olympia snowe, i think a few others will join, but the important point here on health care is to realize that there will be a bill by the end of this year and you do have -- and it's -- >> just let me change sub jeblts, we're running out of time. >> okay. >> on the gay rights thick on the don't ask, don't tell, the fact that obama or any president can just with the stroke of a pen just put that into effect. >> absolutely. >> and this time the obama administration came out of the closs oat don't ask, don't tell. >> i love that. >> issued an executive orders to

suspend prosecutions of gay and lesbian soldiers. >> it's outrageous, really. come on, move on. >> robert, stay right there. we'll be right back with the latest dish on the fight between obama and fox news.

in the past, president obama has taken some shots at fox news and vice versa, but now it seems the administration is escalating the war of words and adding some backup. >> the reality of it is is that fox news often operates almost as either the research arm or the communications arm of the republican party. take their talking points and put them on the air and put their opposition research and put them on the air and that's fine, but let's stop pretending they're a news network the way cnn is. >> not exactly friendly fire with me now is my pal robert zimmerman, cnn contributor and democratic strategist. before we go into another clip which i want to show you, is

this a war that the obama administration's going to win with fox or not? >> no. >> it's not going to win it. >> i understand their frustration, but the best way to -- the best way to beat their right-wing critic is to govern effectively, in fact what they're doing is elevating them by engaging them this way. glenn beck brought this argument to a whole new level. listen to this. >> when they're done with fox and you decide to speak out on something. the old, first they came for the jews and i wasn't jewish, when they're done with fox and talk radio do you really think they're going leave you alone if you want to ask a tough question? >> he's a weird obsession with the nazi thing, doesn't he? he called obama -- didn't he call him a -- >> he's the perfect example why we need health care legislation. we should decrease his

medication and get him coverage for it. what is so galling about this is that glenn beck is trying to exploit one of the greatest tragedies of civilization just to get a sound bite. >> how does it hurt fox news? do you think he hurts the network? ? you know something? i'll leave it to the network to figure that one out. the more important, does he condition tribute and part of intelligent, creative part to the discussion? he doesn't. >> i don't think he wants to. i think he want to be on tv and make a splash and anything to make money. >> anything to create a base. if you look at the past election results he's a perfect example of why the democrats did so well because the country is rejecting that extreme, ignorant behavior. >> barack obama got more votes than any democrat for president since 1964. look at the democratic victories in congress and look at the fact that rush limbaugh, glenn beck, the philosophical leaders of the republican party have become an embarrassment to the republicans and the country. >> they don't really disassociate themselves in the

mainstream in the republican party. >> they should say glenn beck needs medication the way you did. >> it's remarkable. lindsay graham spoke out about it and became national news. he took on glenn beck. the reality is and you saw this in the presidential campaign. rush limbaugh was the touchdown. there was a limbaugh primary and it was the biggest one. while he didn't want john mccain, john mccain became the nominee and when john mccain went out of his way to court rush limbaugh for support, mccain's support dropped dramatically. >> that's interesting, but who do you think should speak out against them? >> i stand up for my party. when moveon.org took on general petraeus with inappropriate ads you saw them stand up to denounce it. the republican party has refused to stand up to glenn beck or rush limbaugh. ? or glenn buck. >> thank you, robert. valerie bertinelli joins me next.

dad, don't you think we should be able to spend our money on a car if we want to? >> not if it doesn't make good sense. your mother was absolutely right for getting it. there's only one sensible solution. >> i know, keep taking the bus. >> actually i was thinking of buying you a new car. dad, who wants to ride a bus to school every day, i mean -- dad! oh! >> from there to here, it's been a long, long road and my next guest has certainly navigated it well. i'm happy to have the author of finding it with, val valerie

bertinelli. >> you could haven't been cuter. >> that's all i had. >> i was watching this clip before and i saw mackenzie was in it as well. she was very young. was that whole thing going with her father before the show? >> this is the first season. i don't think it happened a little bit after when she was 19 or 17. she's 15 here. >> she's 15. >> that was a shocking story to hear that that happened and i've never heard the phrase cob sensual incest before. >> i know. >> there was katherine harrison who wrote a book called "the kiss" who said she slept with her father as an adult and that was semi-fictionalized. this was really strange to hear. >> i've known mackenzie for obviously a very, very long time, and i know she's been tortured for a very, very long time, you don't continually year after year treat yourself as badly as she did for no reason. there was something going on and obviously we know now why.

>> it's shocking that some people don't believe her. i don't get what in the world could she gain from this from saying something so hor of course. plus, like i said, i've seen her struggle with sobriety for so long. there's some stuff going on. i think we need to be giving her grace and just, you know, let her be. the thing is she's doing very good things for incest survivors to. >> her half-sister chynna and bij you. >> she's too young. they believe her, though, don't they? >> i don't know. i only talk to mack. i haven't seen chynna in a lot of years, but -- i -- i don't -- i don't know why they don't support her. i don't. >> but, no. chynna says she believes her. >> i guess you call her a stepmother. she says she doesn't believe her because it's impossible to be married to john phillips all that time and to believe he would have done something like that. >> mackenzie for -- michelle was

high a lot of those years, too. so -- you can turn a blind eye to a lot of things. >> we're talking about a lot of drug addicts. >> a lot. >> anyway, let's move on to you. >> speak of drug addicts. you didn't take diet pills. no, but food is my drug. >> you're italian. we were talking about this on "the view." in the bathroom. >> you were quiet. >> i realized oh, my god, joy is in there and i couldn't pe. i have to get it out here. why ssht she peaing? >> i had to pee. >> did you hear me? >> i did not hear you, but you have to get over this because you have to remember the queen of england pees. >> that's true. >> and poos. >> or we hope she's not con ti pated. >> i don't know. that could be a descriptive term. you lost 40 pounds on jenny

craig. >> i lost 30 pounds on jenny craig. >> patty says hello, by the way. >> and hello to patty. i don't remember who that is. >> the ceo. >> i gained 15 pounds back and i'm trying to lose it again, but i have to be paid to lose weight. if they would pay me again, i would lose that 15 pounds. >> you hear that? you hear that? folks over at jenny? >> we would make some fun commercials, would we not together? >> yes, we would. you looked really great in the bikini shot. do we have a picture? we showed it on "the view" today you were gorgeous. you were skinny minnie. >> i worked my butt off. oh, lordy. >> do you still get in a bikini? i was in a bikini all summer and i was having a ball because i was in the privacy of my backyard and i had a ball. no paparazzi around. they weren't taken out of my behind, and they were taken of

the front of me. >> you were tight and you were taut. >> i worked really hard. i set a goal and i accomplished my goal. that is a good feeling for someone who, like me, falls behind on some of the goals that i set for myself. so this was a really -- this was a feel good experience for me. i gave myself a big pat on the back. >> think when you set the goal people have an easier time dieting than keeping it off. >> the maintenance is this whole other animal that's really challenging. for the first time, this is the longest time i've ever been in maintenance because i've always gain itted it back. it's a whole new animal for me. it's an interesting journey. i don't ever have to gain the 40 pounds back and then have to lose it again, but this is where you get into the nitty-gritty of why i gabed so much weight in the first place. what do you think is the reason? were you an emotional eater? >> oh, all of the time. i still am. i have to really catch myself

and watch myself to make sure i don't fall into that bad habit again. i see some people kaesht keep it off. oprah winfrey up and down, kirstie alley, but these girls really are in trouble. and they're on of it ff. >> it's really not. it's not. that's kirstie. we're all the same when it comes to this. it's a challenge for all of us and it's really not just about will power. it's about finding out why your life was so chaotic that it manifested itself in being overweight and that's what i'm trying to find. and it's different every day. the stresses are different. the emotions are different. >> do you eat from depression? some people eat because they're happy, some people eat because they're sad, some people just eat. >> all of it. i'm italian. the memory i have was watching my grandma cook in the basement of my uncle dino's house.

and they cooked three meals a day. hello? you're italian? >> everyone had a basement kitchen. yeah. >> i know, but the thing is when you come from a background like ours the food is good so you just keep eating it. >> i wasn't happy when i was young, young, young. you ate, but you ate three meals and you went out and played and you were outside all day and when it got dark you went back for dinner and dinner was done, the kitchen was closed and you went to bed and the day started -- it wasn't all of this nibbling and noshing and eating in front of the television and being unconcious when you eat. >> you work out you lose weight, right? >> you move your body. >> when you get over 35 it's harder because your metabolism slows down. that's just a fact. >> it is so you have to work harder. >> let's look at this, jessica simps simpson's weight issues. >> she has a weight issue? >> man, i still can't believe tony did a jessica simpson. even after she blew up bigger than flozell adams. >> hey!

>> how brutal can the media be about press and these people making fun of jessica. the poor girl, i mean, she put on maybe -- she doesn't even look heavy to me. >> maybe five pounds? >> i don't get it. she's a very beautiful young woman, and by the way, i guess all that thing about tony romo not being good when he was with her, well, you still suck. can i say that? he's not having a very good season so far, so you can't blame it on jessica anymore. >> the girls are sticking together. sorry, i'm a saints fan. we're having a great time so far. 4-0. >> the new orleans saints are playing the giants this weekend and i'm a little scared because we're both 4-0 and 5-0 in new york? >> i don't know if they're playing in new york or new orleans. i know i'm not going to be at the game. the giants aren't from new york, aren't they? >> i'm terrible. >> so -- i'm feeling so terrible right now. tony romo, you must be a nice guy, i guess you are --

>> don't worry about him. he's not watching the show anyway. he doesn't care. i wouldn't care if i were him. i want to talk more about the book because you have other stuff about your marriage and how weird it was, i love that stuff. >> that was a long time ago. >> i know, but it is so current in my mind because i have the book. >> okay. >> i'll be back with valerie bertinelli in just a minute.

okay. i'm back with valerie bertinelli. let's talk about your new book "finding it." >> okay. >> what did you find, first of all? >> i'm still finding it. >> what's it? >> exactly. the whole weird thing about mant

maintenance and finding what caused me to put the weight on, what i'm going to find to help me keep it off, just finding it in my weird, bizarre life which isn't probably so weird because a lot of people have the same stories going on. >> it's highly relay latable, are you kidding me? you talked about your marriage with eddie van halen who is a rock star and a cute guy and everything. >> how long was that marriage? >> i think we were married for 20 years, but we were separated for some of it, so i don't know, i've known him for almost 30 years. uh-huh. i can't believe it was that long. >> august of 1980, we met. >> time goes by so fast. it was just yesterday monica lewinsky was just a little girl under the desk. i just want to know -- are you disgusting or what? >> clean the dress. >> golly. they should be cleaned if they get dirty. >> because she's looney tunes. >> disgusting.

>> there was a discussion about extra marital affairs in this book which usually is the reason people break up. that's it. this other baloney -- i have to find myself, i need my space. that's a bunch of baloney. someone is waiting in the wings. what happened there? >> i think by the time you start having affairs something is obviously quite broken in the marriage. obviously something was quite broken in our marriage early on, but we kept up the good fight and we didn't quite make it. >> who was cheating on who? >> you know? do you have to know who? what? when? >> we have a little thing going. ed thinks i did first, and i'm thinking he did first, but we don't know about the timing. >> it was also the same conversation about why we eat. people stray in a relationship for an emotional reason. >> because you're not being fulfilled in whatever relationship you're in. >> either that or you're a horny dog. >> either that or you're in your 20s. >> like governor spitzer and the

other dogs being like we're talking about it. >> edwards. >> they're out there hounding it up, but with women -- >> we know how to hound it up once in a while, too, unfortunately. >> but we have usually a reason, it's not just -- >> so we're given a get out of jail free card? no, no, no, no. >> do you think women cheat in the same way men cheat? >> i think cheating is cheating and it's wrong and you shrpt do it. i can speak from experience from having been cheated on and having cheated. i think the feeling, it feels worse for me to have cheatedo because that feeling of the pain that i inflicted on somebody, i don't ever want to do again. the good thing is that now i'm in a relationship that i know i don't want to hurt that man ever like that. >> you've learned. >> yes. i've learned my lesson. mo nog me -- and which i seriously doubt, because he's -- okay. i'm not going to go there. he's really good in bed. >> better than halen was? you don't have to answer that.

>> oh, my god, my parents are watching this! oh, i'm sorry, pops! i love you. hi, mom. >> you should hear this. >> i'm still a virgin, right? >> you're like a virgin, let's put it that way. i had a child 18 years ago. >> but what was i saying? >> i don't know. >> let's go get a drink. the thing about monoing on when you were younger is monogamy is monotonous is the truth. >> it depends on who you're being monogamous with. >> it is difficult to stay monogamous when you're younger, i think. >> absolutely. >> you're still finding it, whatever that it may be. >> so that's the real reason. >> that's why i think getting married at 27 was really stupid and i don't suggest anybody do that. i think more mature love that i'm going through right now -- i'm with my buddy. i really, i enjoy his company. he's my best friend. i -- i don't want to hurt him. >> first of all, you named your son wolfgang william --

>> van halen. >> you left out the bertinelli, fortunately for him. i mean, this could take aier. you named him after mozart, didn't you? >> yeah. >> were you lying in bed post-or gas mick saying wolfgang, that's really the name. >> i loved the amadeus and i loved the way she said wolffe, wolffe. and i thought that sounds really cute and coming up with the name van halen wasn't easy. i didn't want if he was going to be a boy be called jan. >> how about robert van halen. >> no. >> tom van halen? >> no. >> frank? how about -- >> salvatore. >> salvatore! yeah! mazerit on van halen. >> i think wolfgang determined he had to be in the business. >> he's very lucky he got his dad's gift and not mine.

>> you have a gift. >> a vomit mouth? >> what instrument does he like? he started on the drums when he was 9 and then he picked up the guitar when he was 12 or 11 and then his dad asked him to start playing the bass and he started playing the bass. he's talented. he's got a beautiful singing voice -- on oh, there's my boy. >> he's a cutie pie. very cute. a big boy. and he is now teaching himself the piano. and he kicks ass in rock band. >> really? >> does he sing, too? ? yes, he does. yeah. >> what was the whole thing today about him being a virgin? you think he's a virgin. >> really, seriously? you want to talk about that? >> i just got a text in my son, we're watching "the view" now. are you still speaking to me? >> you were teasing about it. i was. i was. >> he's 18 years old. he's a virgin, right? >> whatever. >> he might be, he might, but that's none of your business. >> none of my business. as long as he's not -- i don't want to talk about it.

>> never mind. this happened today also and you didn't want to talk about it, but is it in here in the book? >> i talk about the sex talk and the sex talk that ed had with wolffe. >> you were listening to. >> well, yeah because it was on the road and we were listening in the dressing room and i could hear ed talking and if you've ever met my husband or ex-husband, he has a scrabbly voice, and it sounds like he's in the mafia, and he has this gram belly voice saying be careful with what you do with your heart and protect it, but once you fall in love, don't protect it so much that you don't let anybody in and protect her heart upon and there will be all these whores and bitche is, that will want to date you because you're in a rock band. >> i've seen some whores in my lifetime. >> i bet you have. >> oh, yeah. >> you're happy with the way he spoke to your son. >> i am.

i may joke around, but he's a really good dad. >> are you friends with eddie now? >> i don't know -- we're friendly. i don't know that i would ever call him my friend or buddy the way tom is my way tom is my buddy. i like him again. i fell out of like with him a long time. i like him again. i like his new wife. >> he got married again too? >> yeah. i was at the wedding. >> oh, that's so nice. >> yeah. so was tom. tom was with me. >> once you have a child, you're never really separated 100% from your husband. >> no, you must treat each other with kindness and love your children more than you hate your e, x. >> i'm not letting you go yet. this woman isn't going anywhere. more with valerie bertinelli when we return.

valerie bertinelli and her boyfriend are sitting across from me. >> roped him in. >> we've been discussing valley lease new book "finding it" and a lot more. welcome to the show, tom. we dragged you in here from the green room. you two are an item for how long? >> five years. >> five years next week. >> you've been dating five years are there wedding plans -- >> what did you call him the other day? >> spousal equivalent. >> you're my spousal equivalent. >> you're not going to get married? i don't want to do the seating chart. everyone gets mad at you. no one wants to be at table 17. >> how about you? do you want to get married, tom? >> i don't know.

she hasn't asked me yet. >> if she asked you would you marry -- >> will you marry me? >> where did you two meet? >> at moi brother's house in scottsdale, arizona. my brother patrick and his wife, stacey. we were going to a wine event and i keep my wine in the freez freezer, especially in scottsdale where it's hot as all get out. >> in the freezer? >> you get it out before it gets too cold. i bruise my wine all the time. i take it out before it gets frozen. he was in front of the freezer and i saw a guy in the tux that looked like that. >> it was a black tie event. we had a good time. >> i said, hello, i'm valerie, and you are? like, uh, tom. >> what did you think of a big straw like her coming on to you, tom? >> you know, it was difficult. i had to get used to it. >> did you -- >> i just supplied her with champagne. >> at the event -- every time my

champagne glass would go down to here, i'd have another one in my hand. >> he met you and fell in love with you before you lost the weight? >> yeah. >> that's a keeper. that's a keeper. >> i was big, too. i was 220. >> he lost the weight on the program. >> the man doesn't have the same -- >> he could -- >> criticize the women. >> remember how big your belly wasn't? not as big anymore. >> that's good. >> it's really something. we had a couple of e-mails from you. questions for you from e-mail. >> what are they saying? >> you can read that without glasses? >> yeah. >> how old are you? >> older than you. check with "people" magazine, they print. every month. >> if they didn't print your birthday, wouldn't you be off d offended? >> no. they do, like, glolassie, 12.

>> which lassie? >> this woman, janice, i am on -- she write, i am on a low-calory program and worried about how i get back to real food. how did you handle that in. >> i'm still on jenmy craig. she has to turn her head around. if it's a super low -- i don't know how much weight she has to lose. maybe she's on a too low of a program. on jenny as you incorporate food and get to your maintenance level, you can -- >> you're off of the food that they package for you at that point? >> i still eat it. >> not 100%? >> some days i'll eat it 100%. i want a nice, clean day and know what's going into my body. i'll do jenny and -- >> i just love you. you are adorable. >> you are my kind of gal. >> tom, too, i think you're a wonderful little couple. i love it. thanks to valerie and tom and all my guests for joining me

tonight. thank you for watching. good night, everybody. >> i love your show.

breaking news tonight. satsuma, florida, a 5-year-old little girl tucked into bed. five hours later, she's gone. vanished. the back door propped wide open. daddy comes home from the nightshift to find not a trace of little haleigh. the last person to see the 5-year-old alive that night? new stepmother misty croslin. just hours after croslin handcuffed by cops on alleged road rage, she flies to new york, taking to the air to declare she's innocent. but even in one brief interview she can't keep her story straight, first claiming she knows nothing about haleigh's

whereabouts, then blurts out the other side of the family took haleigh. then a 180 on the failed lie detector, claiming she passed. then admitting she failed. after her brother tells cops he was at the home that night, no sign of croslin, completely debunking her story. her mother says croslin's not coming clean. croslin's tv response? they betrayed me. they're the bad guys. look at them. don't look at me. minutes after croslin's debacle on national tv, her lawyer dumps her. bombshell tonight -- we know whenever the investigation heats up, croslin goes a-wol. tonight it's revealed her wingman, the woman who took her to orlando and new york, was working undercover to befriend croslin and get the truth. did it work? this while haleigh's dad

publicly stands by his new bride, sources review in a fit of depression over haleigh, cummings threatens to shoot croslin dead if she's responsible. in the last hours, croslin and cummings file divorce papers in a florida court. what does it mean to the investigation? croslin claims the holes in her story have nothing to do with the split, but have cummings' worst fears been confirmed? that his new wife, misty croslin, implicated in the disappearance of his own 5-year-old girl? >> just divorce. i mean, i don't want a divorce, but that's what he wants, so it's whatever. >> breaking news. the divorce papers between ronald cummings and the last person to see haleigh alive, misty croslin, have been filed. >> we gave her the papers. she's no longer represented by anybody. she looked them over, took them to a notary, brought them back

signed. >> the two of us have agreed to go separate ways and just -- with the family problems and everything else, it's just -- it's too much on the relationship. >> does ron still believe misty? reports emerge ronald cummings investigated over alleged gun threat. allegations his attorney denies. what happened? >> why does ron continue through his lawyers to say that he's supporting misty and that he's not concerned about the inconsistencies in her story when we thought he was divorcing her? he's providing cover, he's probably his own worst enemy at this point. >> tips flooding in from across the nation. possibly haleigh sightings caught on tape. this as misty croslin's mom transferred out of a tennessee jail. will she be questioned by florida police? >> i thought all along she had something to do with it and now this kind of just proves it. i mean, she was the last one to see our daughter and her stories just don't add up.

>> if this girl keeps doing what she's doing, it's only a question of time before she's charged with something having to do with this kid's disappearance. she just repeatedly, repeatedly contradicts herself. tonight, live to pennsylvania, two mentally handicapped teens with the minds of a third and sixth grader, vanish. tonight, the search for two helpless handicapped teens. where are charles and donna? pennsylvania police are searching for two mentally disabled teens who vanished in the poconos prid night. 18-year-old charles locker and 19-year-old donna kiranen left around 6:30 p.m. headed out for a walk and haven't been seen since. a massive search was launched over the weekend with emergency management workers, firefighters, residents and

search dogs all out scouring the area for clues. authorities say the teens both have a sixth grade mental capacity. they are desperate to find them. state police plan to continue looking until the pair are found. >> good evening, i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. did a female friend go undercover to get the truth about the disappearance of 5-year-old haleigh? >> everybody knows that i love haleigh and ronald and junior. just a family like haleigh wanted. >> the last person to see haleigh alive is the last person to finally sign divorce papers. >> i think we both agreed on it. >> who brought it up first? >> i did. >> the divorce between ronald cummings and misty croslin now filed. will it boost the investigation into what happened to 5-year-old haleigh? >> i feel like it's on the other side of the family. that has her. that's just how i feel. >> do you feel that police have

looked at everyone they need to look at? >> i don't think they looked at everyone as close as they have me. >> now that misty croslin's mom has been transferred out of a tennessee jail will she be questioned by florida police? >> if this family is willing to betray each other over something like getting a get out of jail free card, what does that say about her and who's she willing to betray? is she betraying ron? is she betraying haleigh? >> as over 4,000 tips continue to pour in, including possible haleigh sightings caught on video. >> i believe haleigh is alive. i have faith in god to take care of my baby girl and find her. >> straight out to art harris at harr harris.com. i understand this is your story you break that the wing man, the so-called friend that went to orlando and flew to new york with misty croslin was undercover? >> that's right.

donna brock, volunteer for texas equisearch, according to tim miller was working all the time to get close to misty so she could possibly glean information about what misty may know happened to haleigh. this was not known to police, per se, she was not a, quote, agent of police but she was working for texas equisearch in an attempt to find out what she could learn by getting close to misty. >> art, where all did donna brock go with misty croslin? where did they travel? >> nancy, she picked her up in satsuma and they went to orlando, they wound up at universal, coca beach. they were on the road when everyone thought misty was on the run. tim miller was wiring money for her to take misty to get her hair, nails done to get close to her. misty was warming up closely to donna. this was something that was working until the road rage incident outed them both.

>> wait a minute. are you telling me that the so-called undercover friend was the friend in the road rage incident that was driving? >> that's correct, nancy. they were driving down highway -- interstate 4 when according to tim miller someone tried to run them off the road. donna balk pulls alongside the car and gave this driver the finger then misty gives them the finger and that is when -- >> i've heard the whole thing. i interviewed the woman who called the cops. art -- put him up again. art, you're trying to tell me it was the victims? how come it was the other lady, pharmaceutical sales rep, that called police? to rat herself out? that doesn't make sense. >> nancy, it depends how threatened to donna brock the driver feel? she didn't feel threatened enough to call the police. according to her it was the other driver -- >> hold on. before we go off on the road rage incident, i want to get back to this. to marlaina schiavo, our producer on the story, did it

work? did donna brock get anything out of croslin? >> unfortunately, nancy, it didn't work at all. all that happened at this point was she got to travel around with misty and get to know her a little better and all she could gather was that misty has a sort of temper that no one has seen but other than that there's been no new information that came from this new friendship. >> what do you mean by temper? >> well, apparently, you know, she had witnessed a couple conversations that misty had while they were on the road with ronald, and apparently she got really, really hostile with ronald at times and she witnessed her just not being very even tempered. >> take a listen to what one alle alleged victim of misty croslin's had to say.

>> to top it all off, while ronald cummings has publicly stood beside his new bride, misty croslin, now we learn of threats? art harris, what can you tell

us? >> that's right, nancy. tim miller went back to the house where ron was living with misty and tells me that ronald took an assault rifle from his closet, had two clips, 32 bullets in each and he threatened to blow misty's teeth to the back of her head and then kill hils and take others out with him if, in fact, he learned she had anything to do with haleigh. he became afraid if anything happened to misty the case would go down the tubes and they would never find out what happened to haleigh since police believe she's holding more information than she's revealing. that's when she came up with this undercover mama idea to let donna brock go on the road with misty to see what he could get from her. >> to mark knee jame, attorney for tim miller of texas equisearch, your client is certainly up in the investigation, hiring someone and paying a woman to go undercover to get the truth out of misty croslin, and when he

says ae observed ronald cummings with a weapon, i thought the cops took all of the weapons out of the home the night haleigh went missing? >> yeah, i think if tim had an opportunity to do a do-over on this he would have. what ended up happening is he did tell the police about this, but at the time the focus was on her polygraph, her voice stress which failed. he let them know. a couple months later everyone said, there's a rifle in that closet and there's another child in the house. at the time the focus was really on what is misty holding back and what is she not telling everybody? >> why won't she come and sit down with police and talk to them? >> i can't answer for you. i'm sure that maybe her attorney can answer it for you. >> we have talked to her about talking to the police. >> what does she say? >> she says she's talked to them.

i got up because i had to use the bathroom but i didn't make it to the bathroom. i seen the kitchen light on. i walked in the kitchen and the back door was wide open. >> she told me when she woke up she keeps the lights out. she noticed the kitchen light was on. she said she made it around the corner -- you had to, like, go around the corner, she noticed

the back door was open. that's when she ran back to the bedroom and haleigh wasn't in there. >> i didn't notice about haleigh then until i seen the back door open and i go in the room and she she's gone. >> she went to haleigh's room. she wasn't in there. that's when she started calling. >> ronald, has the theory misty left the house sometime during the night been disproved? >> i'm not sure i believe that it has, nancy. i'm almost 100% sure but i wouldn't tell you that and lie to you. >> there's no way she could have waupdered off. >> no, she is scared of the dark. she would no go anywhere by herself. >> but i know the little girl, she would not just get up and walk out that door in the middle of night by herself. >> do you believe she left the home and left the children alone, ronald? >> absolutely not. >> we are taking your calls live. out to ellen in california. hi, ellen. >> caller: i love your show, nancy. thank you for taking my call. >> thank you.

yes, ma'am, thank you for calling in. >> caller: the twins are beautiful. >> thank you. they're going to be 2 in just a few weeks. >> caller: lucy looks just like you. >> well, that's a compliment to me and i want to thank you for that. it's a dream come true. >> caller: lucky lucy. >> thank you. what's your question, dear? >> caller: i think misty's stories don't jive because i think she's learning disabled. >> why do you say that? >> caller: remember the 911 call when they asked for her address? >> yes. >> caller: she gave the street. the 911 operator asked for the numerical and she said, what's that? >> okay. to ellie jostad, our chief editorial producer on the story from the very beginning. is there any sign she is

disabled? if she is disabled she's somehow managed to throw off the cops now for about nine months. >> no reports like that, nancy. however, we do know misty croslin, know she's an 17 years old, has dropped out of school, has not gone to school for some time. some reports suggesting she dropped out as early as after the sixth bragrade. >> what about it, art harris? >> i've spoken to her grandmother in nashville, tennessee, who raised her during the crucial years of grammar school, sixth grade. she said she had a hard time with her homework. misty begged her to help her. the grand mother had a hard time, too. she says she does have learning disabilities and her parents did not make her go to school. this is a young woman, young girl who has not had the best education, nancy. >> out to peggy, washington state, hi, peggy. >> caller: hi, nancy. i just want to say i love your show the best because there's

never any of this political stuff on it. it's just interesting things. >> peggy, thank you very much. i absolutely do not like politics. i don't believe either side. the republican, the democrats, i think they're all lying. >> caller: me, too. >> there you have it. what's your question, love? >> caller: i was wanting to ask you, back when haleigh was first discovered missing and it was, like, close to a week, i think, that two cadaver dogs hit on the dumpster that was, like -- >> right. >> caller: okay. what i want to -- i've never heard, when did the dumpster get emptied? i mean -- >> right, right. >> caller: usually are -- >> i remember that. what about it, ellie? >> well, nancy, we did hear reports the dumpster, there was a hit by the cadaver dogs on the dumpster. they apparently thoroughly checked out the dumpster. they weren't able to find anything there. any signs of dna, blood, anything like that. i believe they also went and checked the dump where that dumpster would be emptied and

didn't find anything there either. >> i believe the dumpster had been emptied two days before? >> right. that sounds right. >> to mike brooks, mike, what do you make of the divorce and in your experience handling so many cases like that, how, if at all, will it effect the investigation? >> if at all, nancy, i think it could help the investigation because, you know, ronald, the whole relationship right from the very beginning has been tumultuous from the time the police report was taken. maybe now that, you know, ronald's not there to protect her, if you will, maybe she'll open up. instead of going up to the morning show and cbs and should have been with putnam county sheriffs talking to them about where haleigh is, period. >> they've been on me for six months. they haven't left me alone for six months. i've been the one. the main focus. they just need to move on and look for the right person.

do not lie to me. you've never lied to me before to my knowledge. don't tell me that you didn't know police want to talk to her again. we all know it. we've talked about it on this show, on national tv. now, i'm telling you police want to talk to her. now, why is she back in orlando and not speaking to police? >> that i'm not sure, miss nancy. i already told you, same as what terry said. it's probably due to her attorney. his advice. >> let's unleash the lawyers.

joining us tonight, renee rockwell, veteran defense attorney out of the atlanta jurisdiction and doug burns, former federal prosecutor, now defense attorney in the new york jurisdiction. renee, let's talk about statements that misty croslin probably, most likely, made to the new friend who was paid by a private citizen to go undercover to get the truth about haleigh cummings. she's not a cop. she's not an undercover law enforcement. so anything she says to this woman, donna brock, can come in at trial. >> nancy, i agree with that and i also think even if it was a police plant, that those statements would come in also. there's no rules against somebody trying to set up somebody or trying to trick them into telling them the truth. >> you're right. doug burns -- >> off base. >> doug burns, you have to be in custody, all right? you have to be a target before your miranda rights kick in. >> i agree with everything said

except, though, if she's represented by a lawyer, law enforcement may not be able to put somebody in to get statements out of her. >> that's irrelevant here because this wasn't law enforcement. >> i know. i'm saying -- but renee was saying you can do it willy-nilly. i'm not so sure i agree. >> is there any possibility that she left the home that evening and hasn't told you? >> if there is a possibility of it, i don't know anything about it. dddddddddddddd

what time was haleigh last seen by anybody other than cummings and croslin? >> the last time i seen her was -- >> i didn't ask when you saw her. certainly you as the biological mother know the facts of this case, so when was she last seen by someone other than the father and the stepmother? >> that i don't know. >> have you asked her what happened? what does he tell you? >> i ask her, but that -- i don't get any answers from her

about, you know -- i don't see -- what she's telling me is not inconsistent. >> bottom line, you don't know where haleigh is in. >> bottom line. >> she pretty much tells me the same thing each time i ask her about it. >> she was the last one to see our daughter, and her stories just don't add up. >> i would have woke up if i heard any noise. i mean, i didn't hear anything at all. >> you've been in the trailer just like we have been and somebody pounding on the front door as close as her bed was to the front door, you would hear it. it's tip feet away. >> well, i think the children would have been more likely to hear it. >> i want to get to the bottom of what happened. one way or another i want my daughter to come home. >> i just got home from work, my 5-year-old daughter is gone. i need somebody to be here now. i'm telling you. >> listen to me, listen to me, we've got two officers -- >> if i find whoever has my daughter before you all do, i'm killing them. i'm telling you, you can put it on recording, i don't care.

>> it's okay, sir, we have them on the way. what kind of description of her pajamas was she wearing? >> i don't [ bleep ] know. i was at work. >> joining me right now, president and founder of klaaskids foundation, marc klaas is with us. marc, you went through much the same thing when your daughter, polly, went missing many years ago. how do you compare all of these peoples' behavior to what you think should be the gold standard? >> well, first of all, i didn't have somebody like tim miller come in and play dangerously with the lives of my family, insert his amateurs in and betray us on a variety of levels time after time. these are very vulnerable people that we're dealing with right here. there's a little girl that's missing. he's supposed to be running a search operation. i run a search operation, but you know what? he's putting us in jeopardy. he's putting me, he's putting every other organization that

runs a legitimate search operation in jeopardy because we require the trust and cooperation of law enforcement and the family whenever we get called into one of these cases and he's just breaking that down. if i were the putnam county sheriff, i would consider arresting tim miller for interfering in an investigation. i'm absolutely outraged by the things that i've heard tonight. now, before anybody gets too far off on misty here, and i, quite frankly, don't foldly believe her story either. let's remember, my daughter polly was kidnapped in her bedroom while her mother slept soundly only ten feet away. exactly the same thing happened to elizabeth smart and to daniel van dam. entire families slept through these kidnappings. as preposterous as her story may be, it's not utterly impossible. >> what about it, mark nejame? our the attorney for tim miller of texas equisearch. how did he come up with the

concept, mark nejame, in response to marc klaas' questioning, to plant someone undercover against misty croslin? >> what's outrageous is mr. klaas' statement. tim miller is here to help find missing people. >> if you can just focus on the question. >> and he's found his 102nd person today. you think outside the box. law enforcement was at a dead end. every effort being made to find this child who was either dead or missing was utilized, and to find a child, you use any legal means necessary. there's not a rule book that says you can only do it one way. he should be applauded to do whatever it took to help find a missing or dd child. to be criticized for that is wrong and outrageous. >> i want to go to our producer on the story. ellie, i want to go back also to what ronald cummings allegedly said. publicly he stands beside his new bride, misty croslin.

privately, according to sources, that would be miller, he threatened to blow her head off if she was involved? that doesn't sound like he believes her story. >> right. right. he did say that. he said, according to tim miller, he would blow misty croslin's teeth out there the back of her head if he found out she did it. ron cummings' lawyer said ron does not remember making the statement. if he did it was an emotional statement he said when he was upset, similar to on the 911 call where he said, if i find whoever did this, i am going to kill them. >> what about it, karen stark? psychologist from new york. >> i tell you, nancy, somebody may be very emotionally upset but don't necessarily start telling people they're going to kill them ar blow their teeth in or any of that stuff is going to happen. i really think this is such a travesty and such a circus that i'm waiting for the acrobats to come in. it's one ridiculous story on top

of another. it's all very ludicrous. what about haleigh? isn't she supposed to be the focus? not the fact that misty is covering up and not telling anybody anything. someone should be really, really paying attentiono can we do to find out about her, and forget about all of who's killing whom and everybody blaming everybody else. >> to art harris at www.artharris.com. he's been there in satsuma for weeks on end investigating this story. what, if any, difference will the divorce make in? the last hours they have failed for divorce in a florida courthouse. >> nancy, it is keeping misty on edge, and that is hopefully what police are counting on to, perhaps, get, you know, some cooperation in the future. i can tell you she has met with police, with this undercover friend, and i'm told they told her, warned her that she could get life in prison if they're able to make a case against her.

>> to dr. jennifer shu, pediatrician and author of "baby and child help." what would be haleigh's needs? let's assume the child is still alive. >> so haleigh had a condition called turner syndrome which gives you small stature and it also -- ovaries that don't function. what can also happen is heart problem, thyroid disorder and diabetes. those types of things could be life threatening to the point where if she wasn't getting the regular medical care she needed she could get very sick and die in a short period of time. >> out to the lines. lina in arkansas, hi. >> caller: hello. >> hi, dear, what's your question. >> caller: i was wondering when misty's brother went there that night -- if he said he knocked on one door and couldn't get a resporngs did he not go to the other door? wouldn't people naturally check the other door? >> good question. marlaina schiavo? >> not go to the second door,

nancy, he only knocked on the front door according to him. >> to sheryl in michigan. hi, sheryl. >> caller: hi, nancy. >> hi, dear, what's your question? >> caller: first off, i love your show. i have a question. if they suspect that misty told her mother and brother anything and they have them in custody, how come they haven't charged them with anything after the fact? >> hold on. repeat the question, sheryl? if the mother and brother know something, why haven't they charged them? >> caller: or threatened to charge them after the fact? >> charge them with what? >> caller: knowing any information. after the fact. >> to renee rockwell and doug burns. in our jurisprudence and our legal system, renee, nobody is under a duty to be a good compa samaritan and come forward. if you're under oath on the stand and lie, that's perjury. if you're under oath on the stand and refuse to answer, that's contempt. but other than that, what else can they do? >> nancy, i think it's

interesting the dynamic you have now. you have mom that's in jail and she's got $100,000 bond. she's about to be brought down to florida. i clearly think that they will approach her and say, okay, do you want to get out of jail? you need to tell us something. look at it. her husband's gone. her friend's a plant from tim miller equisearch. her mother's in jail and her brother flipped on her. >> doug burns, is there any way these people, if they know something, can be charged with not giving it up? >> the distinction is that as you said it perfectly, you're not required as a good samaritan to come forward. if you conceal information, then it become s a felony. the police asks, did you speak to mr. a, b, c -- >> what if you don't say anything at all? >> if you don't say anything at all you're absolutely right. everyone, quick break. to tonight's safety tips.

over 1 million people are victims of stalking every year. nearly always by somebody they know. if someone repeatedly calls you, follows you, sends you unwanted e-mails, letters, threatens you, randomly shows up where you are, leaves unwanted gifts, you're being stalked. if you are in immediate danger, of course, call 911. otherwise, please document all of these incidents. save the voicemails, letters and any correspondents like e-mails and file police reports. tell everyone you know so the stalker cannot get access to personal info like your location, your plans. stalkers are unpredictable. if someone follows you, don't go home. go to a busy area and get help. for information go to safehorizon.org.

authorities are desperately searching for two mentally disabled teens who disappeared friday night. the teens, charles lockard and donna kiernan were seen friday headed out for a walk. 100 searchers including firefighters, emergency management workers and

volunteers spent the weekend serge serging the area for the teens. workers went door to door and used search dogs hoping to find any clue to lead them to the teens. police will continue to search for the pair who have a sixth grade mental capacity. >> straight out to bob matthews, news director wvpo news talk 840960 a.m. bob, what happened? >> basically, these two youngsters were getting together on friday night. they were going over to visit the young man's grandmother. the family was gathered outside the grandmother's house and charles lockard sister went inside for a couple minutes and when they came back outside both lockard and his girlfriend, donna marie kiernan were missing. they thought, maybe they took a walk or wandered into the woods. the family started to look for them around the property then started to panic when they couldn't find them. then lockard's father was running into the woods and said he heard his son screaming out,

screaming out and all the sudden the screams stopped and he started to panic. however, they didn't call police or fire officials until the next day as they continued to look around the property to try to locate the two youngsters. >> bob matthews, joining us from wpvo from strasbourg, pennsylvania. what did the father claim to have heard the son calling out? any words? >> he said he heard him calling daddy, daddy, daddy, and then all of the sudden he said he heard it again and then the third time he said he heard daddy, dad -- and it stops abruptly. that's when his father became worried and started searching frantically. >> to matt zarrell, producer on the story. what can you tell me about their mental disabilities? >> the boy, charles, he's got the mental capacity of a third grader and donna has the mental capacity of a sixth grader, nancy. >> back to bob matthews. bob, what more can you tell me? what is the type of area? where are they missing? number two, why did they wait until the next day to call

police? >> let's talk about the area where they went missing. it's a rural development and there are, you know, woods and swamps and bushes and cliffs out when you get into the deeper terra terrain. other than that there are houses mixed in amongst the trees. it wasn't like they were out in the middle of the forest. basically what happened, i guess from what i heard, there are conflicting stories back and forth as to why they didn't go to the police right away. some said they were nervous. some said they, you know, thought they would find them on their own. didn't want to alarm authorities. when the youngsters didn't come home and they couldn't find them, that's when they panicked and said we better call somebody and called state police and the penn township volunteer fire company. >> bob, that doesn't make sense. what would they be nervous about? >> some people involved in the case, and, again, this is just hearsay. i got this information from a third party. said that they had had some

activity in the past with law enforcement, but they didn't really go into specifics or details. some people speculate they may have been afraid to go to authorities because they may have thought they were going to get into some kind of trouble. >> to mike brooks, former fed with the fbi. what do you make of it? i mean, these are two teens with the minds of a sixth and a third grader. they are helpless. >> absolutely. d.c., if we were looking for them, even if they thought they might have run away, nancy, or whatever the circumstances could be, it would be classified as a critical missing person because of their mental capacity. you know, this whole delay in calling 911, it just doesn't add up to me. doesn't make sense. you know, it could cost these children their lives for not calling the police when they should have called. >> to marc klaas, founder of klaaskids foundation. your ex-per zepertise is lookin lost children.

what should be done? >> mike hit the nail on the head when he said the delay in contacting law enforcement may have been a critical mistake. one of the things they can do right now is ask all property managers, all real estate agents, farmers, ranchers, anybody that has access to unoccupied properties or outbuildings to please go and check those properties to see if the kids might be there. although they do not have -- although their mental capacity is challenged, they certainly understand the need to get shelter i'm sure. i think that would be one place to start and that might end up solving the case. >> back to bob matthews, wpvo. bob, i had heard a report, but i want to confirm this with you, there are a lot of vacation homes in that area. there's about 3,000 homes is my area. is it true one of the homes appears to have been used by the two teens? they've been in there? >> yeah, nancy. the latest information we have from state police, there are a lot of homes in that area that

unfortunately had been foreclosed upon. there are vacant homes in the indian mt. lakes development. police say based on eyewitness accounts and people who saw these two youngsters that they had stayed in one of the homes saturday. when they went to investigate the youngsters were already gone. the teens had left the home. police are saying right now they think they are still somewhere within the development, but that's why, you know, with a program like yours and others, are still trying to get the word out in case, you know, they manage to slip their way out of indian mt. lakes and are out and about somewhere. as you mentioned a short time ago, the elements up there, the temps are supposed to drop into the low -- down around freezing. maybe into the low 307s, upper 20s by the weekend. it's imperative they find the youngsters quickly. these homes probably don't have the heat turned on and the electricity turned on. >> everyone, we are talking about two teens with the mental capacity of a third grader and a

sixth grader. if they don't find shelter, they are in the elements. they are completely helpless and missing now for several is 570. how do people like this make their way in society? a 3rd great mentality and 6th grade mentality? they get support and need to have people around them helping them and the nice thing is they found each other so they can support each other. what concerns me is the fact that -- >> they have fallen prey to a predator, they are moral support to each other and it won't account for much. can the family be held responsibility for not reporting them missing for so long? >> this can amount to not reporting a 3rd grader and a sixth grader missing.

>> i want to wish a happy birthday to texas friend, sue. she never misses a show. sue, happy birthday.

charlie lockard and donny kiernan, 18 and 19 years old respectively are mentally challenge and comprehend at the 6th great level. they went for a walk in the indian lakes development friday afternoon and didn't return. >> just want her to come home. that's all i want. or at least call me, please. let me know it's okay. i will come and get her. >> i just want her home. she is my daughter. she is my baby. donna, please come home. please.

>> these two children need your help so desperately. they look like teenagers, but they are mentally handicap and have the mind of a 3rd grader and 6th grader. if they can't find shelter or have fallen prey to a predator, god only knows what happened to them. the tip line, 570-646-2271. hi, elaine. >> caller: hi, nancy. i love your show and watch it every day. >> thank you. >> caller: your children are so beautiful. i want to know why it took the parents so long to report them missing and also would they know their phone number or address or know a way to get home? >> to bob matthews, would they know enough to know their address if they are asked? >> everybody keeps talking about a mental capacity of a 3rd and

6th grader. they are sharp and functional and donna kiernan loves school and she is a sharp girl so hopefully, i don't know for sure, but hopefully they know. >> weigh in, doctor. >> a 4-year-old or 5-year-old knows their phone number or address. i would expect they would know it. whether they have access to a phone, i worry about that. you can go two days without water and get dehydrated. i worry about hypothermia and getting injured in the woods. it's important to find them quickly. >> let's stop and remember marine lance corporal derek gardener, 20. san juan capistrano, california. killed iraq. from a long line of vet who is served in both world wars, korea and vietnam and loved fishing with his dad and knot's berry farm, pro wrestling and the dodgers. favorite music, rap. leaves behind ken and vicki and fiance, april.

his beloved jack russell terrier. thanks to our guests, but especially to you. our thoughts and prayers with florida friend, legal analyst and veteran lawyer, bill schaffer. spinal surgery today. bill, stay strong and we are praying for you. everyone, i will see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern. until then, good night, friend. i'm aj hammer in new york. here's what's coming up tonight at the top of the hour. the jaycee did you guard miracle. look at the woman kidnapped as a child and allegedly sexually abused for 18 years. tonight, why a big star is attacking jon and kate's handling of their eight kids and even using the word abuse. that is your news break, tv's

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