what is the most provocative entertainment news on television? it is "showbiz tonight." it's nengs. stay tuned. tomorrow morning, watch "morning express" with me, robin meade. right now on "showbiz tonight" portrait of a mad scientist? brand new dramatic revelations about the dad behind the balloon boy's saga. >> he's motivated to prove himself in many different ways. >> exexplosive new details about his reality show past. plus, major hollywood stars speak out about their bizarre connections to the balloon man. the jon and kate gosselin

drama. what about the kids? >> are we almost there? >> we're here. >> in a brand new interview kate reveals how tough their split had been on the couple's eight kids. plus, kate's biting statements to critics who say she's exploiting her kids. and controversial former bu pi queen, carrie prejean in a new battle with pageant officials. tv's most provocative entertainment news show starts right now. hello. i'm a.j. hammer broadcasting tonight and every night from new york city. >> and i'm brooke anderson coming to you from hollywood. when we thought the alleged balloon hoax had run out of hot air, there's explosive new revelations tonight. >> brooke, we're getting a wild

portrait of the self-proclaimed mad scientist, richard heeney, the man at the center of the hot air fiasco is probably getting more than he bargained for. today, the run-away balloon drama is officially a federal case. the faa said today, it is investigating heene for allegedly cooking up the whole wild ride that had everybody thinking his little boys with drifting through the sky in a flying saucer. all of this as his former cohorts are speaking out and revealing details about his past, painting him as a man hell-bent on gaining fame at any cost. but wait, there's more. some hollywood stars are revealing their own bizarre connections to heene. these dramatic new developments made for big news breaking today. it could be the most mentioned name on t slchlt today. >> richard heeney science detective. >> the family could be facing some serious charges.

>> the family, they allege fooled the entire country in thinking their 6-year-old son, falcons with was trapped in this balloon. not only are they facing possible charges but now, we'll tell you the feds are investigating. it looks like someone should have filed a flight plan. >> richard heeney and the family could be in some serious trouble. >> has the heeney's problems pile up, we're learning more about the bloom scheme's mastermind, budding scienceties, richard heeney. >> if hemp a good mad scientist he could have invented something to get a 6-year-old boy to keep a secret. >> we did this for a show. >> "showbiz tonight" can tell you it looks like this science junky chased fame, aliens, and at u one point, william shatner who knows a little something about aliens. >> each new detail we find out makes him seem even more bizarre

and even more fame-hungry. >> his lawyer, tells "larry king live" he expects the state to charge his client next week. >> these are, in the world of felony charges, fairly low-level felonies. >> we can tell you that all signs show that heeney, who was featured along with his family on abc reality tv show, "wife swat" was apparently dead set on getting a heat show of his own, where his own weird inventions and unconventional scientific theories about aliens -- >> i was in contact with aliens -- >> would be center stage. he composed a theme song which was posted on tmz. but former associates say heeney's reality show obsession went beyond writing music. robert thomas who worked with heeney claims heeney was scheming to promote his reality show by launching a mysterious balloon. he told his story on "the today

show."

so, those are the new joining me tonight in hollywood, carlos diaz. and he was mad, wacky and eccentric. the sad thing is, he does kind of have talent. i've done a lot of research on this guy. he had ideas about hurricanes and gravity being affected in the eye of the hurricane. so, he does have a mind. but in the end, this is a man who desperately wanted to be famous and it is a sad mirror on society that people are more thirsty for fame than they are for the talent in which it takes to get to that fame level. >> i was surprised by the amount of new evidence about his seeking fame that we got today. he's trying to contact william shatner. he actually did succeed in reaching out to him. he reached out to jimmy kimmel and now the newly uncovered clips from his crazy wife-swap experiences and now, the

astounding fed investigation in the whole balloon hoax. do you think the new sense we're getting with these new revelations, is that feeding the age they are people are really feeling towards this guy? or what are your radio listeners telling you? do they understand what motivated him to do what he's accused of doing? >> no. my listeners and bloggers, et cetera, they are all saying -- how disgusting, for somebody to use their child. how disgusting to have so much desire and greed for success and fame in that 15 minutes, you know -- this is beyond the boy that cried wolf. how many emergency agencies, three helicopters from the national guard. how much money did this cost for a publicity stunt? for a hoax? they taught their child that lying is good? go hide in the bokts in the attic, sweetie, we might get a reality show. there are people talking about taking their children. they're people talking about him paying it back and people saying

he should serve hard jail time. i certainly hope he won't be a celebrity. not only deny listeners view him as a criminal but i think most of america does. i do. >> i do, too. and i think a lot of people see it that way with this new interesting picture that people are painting of him. i always say -- if you want an accurate look into someone's personality, go right to the source. you have to check out heeney's self-described mad scientist ways on "wife swat." look at this. >> these are mo to haves that i've been working on that use no gas or electricity. there's got to be a way to dissipate the tornado. well, this is the tornado. >> we are creating hover craft. >> we'd like to get this into the storm to actually float around and take individual kbro. >> carlos, what do you see? that's not so surprising what's going on with this guy, is it? >> he's kind of cookie. that's basically -- that's my scientific term for it. the bottom line is, if you listen to this guy over and over again, i see this every day in

hollywood. people have a unique character trait or they have a unique way about them and somewhere along the lines, someone said, you ought to be on tv. they think, i got to be on tv and i'll do it at all costs, including, allegedly, putting my kids in harm's way and making my kids not look so bright on ""wife swap."" i see it all the time and it's a pathetic look into society and it's hollywood's way of saying, this is how you'll be famous. >> back to how angry people are feeli feeling. so, five days since the hot air fiasco and people are still seething over this. do you this the only satisfaction will be if he gets thrown in the slammer? >> yes. how many people waited an extra minute for emergency response? how many parents have had children abducted whose faces are on milk cartons? >> this the ridiculous.

what happens next time? will a child really be in harm's way? >> the whole boy who cried wolf thing. i thank you both. but wait -- there's more. we've got to talk about the kids. what about them? were they exploited big-time in this whole deal? i'm not just talking about the heeney kids. harsh reality for kids. we want to know -- is it time to get kids out of reality shows? >> rihanna hadn't said a word publicly about the night chris brown beat her but today she's getting people talking with this, a photo topless wrapped in barbed wire. what's up with this photo? is it the light move. is hollywood's oldest bachelor lonely? george clooney reveals all. and beauty queen, carrie prejean is locked in a battle with pageant officials. they want the money for her boob job back. i'll tell you why.

our news ticker, more stories from the "showbiz tonight" newsroom making news right now.

a huge announcement from oprah winfrey. sarah palin will be on her show. oprah and palin will meet up for the first time for an exclusive interview on not have 16th. after oprah endorsed barack obama she said she wouldn't have palin on the show until the campaign was over. this will be palin's first interview to talk about her upcoming book "going rogue." welcome back. i'm a.j. hammer. and i'm brooke anderson. talk about a cheap thrill at the movies? get your mind out of the gutter. it's not what you're thinking. hollywood is getting recession-savvy with a movie that only took $15,000 to turn into a viral sensation. how did "paranormal activity" scare up big numbers at the box

office? we have that report. >> reporter: when it comes to horror, suspense, hollywood has a history of getting more bang for its buck. low-budget films acquired by studios that become blockbuster hits. while the big-screen breakouts rarely happen, "paranormal activity" is breaking rules in hollywood and getting noticed. >> you don't need to spend a ton of money to turn a profit. >> reporter: that could be hollywood's new motto, says daniel myrik, where studios are counting pennies. he directed the 1999 surprise blockbuster "the blair witch project." shot on a $30,000 budget it eventually grossed $140 million. within the last decade no other microbudget film has come close

to "blair witch's" success. it's already rolls in more than $30 million in two weeks. >> studios realize you don't need to spend a ton of money on marking and talent and production values to generate profit. i'd like to think the economy will force the studios to reevaluate. >> they say paramount used a creative strategy to shift from the classic market of print and broadcast to social media website like twiter. >> the grassroots of a viral campaign e-mailed and tweeted people asking them to demand that "pair lranormal activity" shown in their town were but they caution saying this is the new norm in hollywood. >> it remains to be seen if we'll see this big rush of people trying to snap up these 10,000 -- $20,000 movies.

the ones that are really good are far and few between. >> reporter: besides, he says, marketing a movie on a meager budget is one formula hollywood is still trying to figure out. another point johnson makes, and this isn't to take away from the films success, halloween is around the corn sorry filling seat force a scary movie may not be the most difficult thing. >> brooke, so the phone lines have been scaring up a lot of people about the whole balloon boy saga. our operators are stuck to their stations answering calls. >> those operators better not float away. people are really upset that the whole thing may have been a approximately to get a reality show. listen to this call from cindy calling from michigan -- >> caller: i think if they get a reality show all the proceeds should go to charity and they shouldn't profit from any of this because they're exploiting their son and their chance for their own gain.

they shouldn't gain anything from this. >> thank you, cindy. we also heard from rebecca who called from new york, and like a lot of people, she said her heart really was with the family at first. >> caller: it's pretty stupid. because i was praying, praying, praying and crying, praying for this little boy, who was in the balloon. so i think that the parents should really pay the price for doing that. >> thanks a lot. remember the showbiz on-call phone lines are opened all the time. >> give us a ring. all right. if this whole thing was a approximately to get a reality show, what is that say about the dad? some people that he worked with in the past are now speaking out. >> regular people out here say, wow? really bad judgment. especially when he decided to try to drive in the hurricane gustav. that was the final straw for me. >> brand new revelations in the

balloon dad's former colleagues. and the great debate, is it ever okay to put kids on reality tv shows? and when tory spelling is the other woman, dean mcdermitt left his wife for tory and today, his ex-wife is talking about why dean forced her to meet with tory and what went down. really juicy. and a brand new controversy for rihanna. look at this picture we found in is getting people fired up. is this the right way for reeian that to promote herself after everything she's been through? here comes our news ticker. more stories from the newsroom making news right now.

divorce is never easy but imagine going through it in public after your husband leafs you for tory spelling? that's what mary joe faced four years ago when dean mcdermitt dumped her for tory. today mary joe spoke out about it and she has now new book called "divorce sucks." and on "good morning america" she talked about the day she learned about this in a hotel room. >> i was feeding my daughter and he came back from his golf game and he seemed a bit tense. i wasn't sure why. my intuition said something was a bit off. i said, what's up?

you've within acting weird. have you met somebody? and he shade, yeah. i said, is it tory spelling, because they had just done this movie together. and he said, "yes." and i asked him if he slept with her and he said yes. he said she's my soulmate. >> she looks lovely. at the time, mary joe and dean were living in los angeles. mary joe wanted to move back to canada after their split but there's a snag. she wasn't allowed to take the kids out of the country without dean's permission which he wouldn't give her until she met with tory. here's how that went. >> it was interesting. i was really determined because i didn't want a huge drawn-out legal battle so i said i would meet her. and it was a three-hour meeting. she came to my house. apparently, in her book, she had a knife in her purse. i didn't see. i couldn't see the kbrout line of the knife but apparently she thought i might attack her or something like that. >> mary joe has advice for

women. number one, don't marry an actor. >> well, everybody's a comedian on the "showbiz tonight" facebook page. we asked what you thought about marge simpson posing for playboy. here's what you had to say - say -- praf praf want to hear from you on facebook and follow us on twitter for breaking news entertainment news alert. and now, the showbiz lineup. here's what's coming up. brand new explosive details about the balloon boy's dad's possible approximately to get a reality show. is it ever okay to put kids on reality tv? also, this racy new rihanna picture. this is how she's promoting her new music.

after everything she's been through, we have to ask -- is it the right move? and is hollywood's hottest confirmed bachelor lonely? george clooney opens up about being unlucky in love. this is "showbiz tonight" on hln. more stories making news right now.

now, on "showbiz tonight." the alleged reality show balloon boy hoax. >> regular people out here say, wow. really bad judgment! especially when he decided to try to drive in the hurricane gustav. that was the final straw for me. >> brand new revelations from the balloon dad's co-workers about his push to get a reality show. also new today, kate gosselin says her eight kids are struggling. the fired-up "showbiz tonight" debate. kids on reality tv. is it bad for them? rihanna's racy photo shocker. rihanna nearly naked, wrapped in

barbed wire. is this empowering or a terrible idea? and the carrie prejean boob battle. tonight why the former miss california is in a nasty fight over her breast implants. and the news ticker, tv's most first provocative entertainment news show continues right now. welcome ba to "showbiz tonight." it's 30 minutes past the hour. i'm a.j. hammer broadcasting tonight and every night from new york city. and i'm brooke anderson coming to you from hollywood. tonight, harsh reality for kids. the brand new drama surrounding the man behind the run-away balloon explodes as we learn more and more about the lengths richard heene went to in order to get his own family reality show. brand new questions come to the surface about the safety of his

kids. is it ever a good idea for kids to be in the spotlight for the sake of a reality show? the ladies of "the view" had something to say about it today. >> before these reality shows are put on, the networks should think of -- although it's not their responsibility, what is this doing to the children? >> and in a brand new interview, kate gosselin reveals for the very first time, how tough her split from her soon-to-be ex-husband, john, has been on the couple's eight kids. a.j. what do you think? they're dealing with their parents' divorce in front of the entire world. >> i've said all along, this whole thing cannot be easy on these kids. we have our three experts on our panel. let's begin with the heene family balloon drama. on "larry king live" a friend of richard heene who worked closely with him said, she wanted out

once she saw richard putting his kids in harm's way. you've got to watch this. >> he loves those kids. he absolutely loves his kids. in the same vein, the rest of us as parents, or regular people out here go -- wow! really bad judgment! especially when he decided to try to drive in the hurricane gustav. that was the final straw for me. >> is that when you parted ways with him? >> oh, yeah. definitely. when i heard he was taking the family down there, no way! way too over the top. too dangerous. >> if this is true, does this really show that heene would stop at nothing, including putting his kids at risk for a shot at fame? >> that's the crazy thing. i was doing research for the story and looking at video and i had to pause the video. i was like, that his kid in the back seat? he's chasing storms with his kids! these are little kids with him! it's one thing to use your kids in awe cute way to gain success on reality tv.

but when you're chasing storms and you're talking about big-time hurricanes children should have no part in that. >> dr. michelle, can you help us understand what parent would possibly be willing to put their kid right in the middle of such a dangerous situation just to get a moment in the spotlight? >> well, it's a parent with extremely impaired judgment, that's for sure. its not just poor judgment. it's abusive. it's illegal to bring your children and put them, knowingly and willingly, in harm's way. that's what he's doing by storm-chasing. and it's also illegal to have your children help you in the commission of a crime, was what he did -- which is what he did with the hoax, if it's through that's why some people are saying it wouldn't be a surprise to see child protective services brought in. and now because of the alleged balloon hoax the heene kids may face more trauma. they said that the authorities have enough reason to take the

kids away from their parents. take a look. >> i think it's likely. at this point they need to go in will there and take a look at the judgment and safety and risk issues that these parents place their kids place their children at. they should put some services in place to help dad deal with his anger which apparently we see and a lot of the impulse control and a lot of the bad judgment going on in these decision makings. >> bad judgment, as the doctor said. these parents could lose their kids because they wanted to get on a reality show. let me bring in brooke anderson. as somebody that's been covering this and as a new mom yourself, can you make any sense of why a parent would endanger their kid like this for fame? >> i can't. the fact that they may have coaxed their children into this elaborate hoax and forced their children to lie on television, so much so that one was getting sick, its selfish and poor parenting and it's borderline abuse.

if this is indicative of how they treat their children on a daily basis i agree, they should be in more capable, caring hands. >> i spoke with another new mom about this. the view's elizabeth hasselbeck went one-on-one about this. she's not only a mom but she competed in "survivor." so she she has perspective. i asked her she thinks it's okay for kids to be in reality shows. >> i can't imagine having cameras follow me as a child and trying to develop, learn and grow and figure out my place in a family. your role in the family and in your home environment should be safe and one that should be, in my opinion, is off limits. otherwise your role is defined based on your surroundings. so if someone is watching you at all times, how are you not supposed to be affected? >> her words mirror what our viewers are thinking. here's the results of our poll?

89%% said no which. 11% said yes. clearly, heenes think the risk was worth the reward of reality tv fame. >> look away from the storm chaser fiasco. if you look at ""wife swap"" when he was on there, his kids were dropping the f-bomb on national tv and the look on his face was like -- way to go. and an inappropriate joke about the new wife in the "wife swap" couldn't sleep with the kids and that was a funny, weird joke by the kids. it's not just what he's doing by putting the kids in harm's way, he's basically pimping them out to make fools of themselves. >> and he doesn't even know who wolf blitzer. we have breaking news today going on with kate gosselin. kate's speaking out in a new interview with "vanity fair".com, fairing back at critics saw say she's exploiting her kids. she says the ones that claim

we're exploiting our children are the ones that are actually exploiting our children. she and jon are the ones who signed off on ""jon & kate plus 8" and she's the one off of making money off of putting her kids on tv. >> it's the old, you are, defense. i'm not making any more money about talking about jon and kate on tv. kate, we'll talk about something else tomorrow and the next day. i haven't made a single dime off of talking about your kids. >> and something very interest, the kate revealing that the kids not doing so well since they split up. she says oh -- why the kids are acting out. they don't see it but it's all interconnected. i imagine they say the same thing when i'm away. dr. michelle, that's no surprise, is it? >> they don't need grace, they

need therapy. i mean, they don't need grace, kate. they need therapy. you need to help them by getting them professionals and getting off television. jon did the right thing by pulling the plug, even for whatever reason it was still the right thing and she they should be off the air. >> carlos diaz and dr. michelle, thanks for being here. what do you think? our show distonight 'question of the day -- kids on heat tv. is it bad for them? let us know. could this brand new photo out today be bad for rihanna? look at this. it's rihanna nearly naked wrapped up in barbed wire. i think it's shocking, with everything she's been through, is posing for a picture like this a good idea? and also tonight, the battle over carrie prejean's breasts. carry, the controversial former miss california, usa. tonight she's being sued over

her implants. and george clooney always seems to have a beautiful woman on his arm. tonight george opens up about his love life. could he really be lonely? this is "showbiz tonight" on hln. and more stories making news right now.

welcome back to "showbiz tonight." i'm a.j. hammer. and i'm brooke anderson. brooke, do you see this? i love it when a hear an engine purr. check this out. a cat stuck in a suv engine in new york city. the driver drove around for two miles with a cat right in the engine. don't worry, the cat is fine. i was thinking he was trying to get into cat and driver magazine, get it? >> got it. tonight, rihanna's provocative pose. it's the pop superstar just months after her brutal beating in an snl stance. she's topless in a brand new

photo to promote her song "russian roulette." is it empowering or shock something. and the extraordinary new lawsuit against carrie prejean. the woman at the center is being sued for her breast implants. and george clooney unlucky in love is the man who some called the sexiest guy on the planet lonely? poor george. with me from new york is suzanne. she's the senior editor of "star" magazine. and leslie marshall, the host of "the leslie marshall show." suzanne and leslie, let's crank this up with this shocking rihanna photo. it's been 18 months since the brutal attack by chris brown. she's not said word one about the incident. today she is promoting a new song topless and in barbed wire. after you picked your jaw up off

the ground, what did you think? >> i have to say i think it's very empowering. i think it has its own sex appeal. very madonnaesque. she obviously don't want to be a spokeswoman for abuse. i think she's showing she's moving past the whole incident with chris brown and she, you know, rihanna is always a little bit shocking. she's got her own gun tattoos. and she's always out there trying to shock people. i think this is part of that as well. >> it just looks really painful to me, even though i know she wasn't really posing with barbed wire and i know it's probably making a lot of parents cringe. parents who thought that rihanna was sending the wrong message by not speaking out after she was beaten up. i have to imagine those same parents are going to be outraged by this picture. leslie, is rihanna going to face major backlash or sit just art? >> well, it might be art and i agree with you, i was like, ouch! this is a woman that is

extremely talented. and a lot of young girls look up to her. and she doesn't need to do this to sell her album. and we got to stop, ladies, girls, teaching our young girls that we can have a brain. we don't need to show our breasts in barbed wire or have -- shows whatever she's showing. it's not necessary. she's so talented. i think a lot of parents will be outraged because she didn't speak out about the domestic violence, the abuse. she's not speaking out now. russian roulette is a very good name for this album. wearing barbed wire is like putting a bullet and spinning the barrel. >> you make some great points. she's not targeting third graders here. but at the same time it's superedgy. i want to get to this next showbiz shocker. making news today, former miss california usa, carrie prejean, she caused an uproar with hr anti-gay answer at the miss usa pageant and then she

got the boot. carry sued over losing her crown and now miss california officials are suing over the money for carry's breast implants, among other things. suzanne, is this just wrong? or should she pay up since she didn't fulfill her duties. >> it's obvious that someone's trying to get back at her by exposing this information. she has a right to be a little bit upset about it but you know what, if you don't want people to find out about your boob job, maybe she should have paid for it on her own. >> she did agree to repay the loan, according to miss california officials. carry says that she's suing because miss california officials revealed, quote, private facts about her implants. now i have to read what the miss california organization's countersuit says, quote -- her reps told us that the miss

california organizers are out to destroy her reputation. they say it's all because of her anti-gay marriage beliefs. leslie, quickly, whose story are you buy zmg. >> she's suing them and now they're suing her. why are the officials paying for breast implants? she should have them takenen out and delivered on like some hershey kisses. >> the silver fox reveals sometimes kborch cloon any feels like a failure in the love department. he says, i've had some great relationships and some not so great relationship. i've been in some relationships where i felt terribly alone. just because you're with someone doesn't mean your incredibly happy or complete. george, famously tight-lipped about his love life.

is it shocking to hear him be so painfully honest? >> it is. he's in a very happy relationship right now. long-term relationship. it's almost as if he's fishing to get something out of his girlfriend. so i'm not sure what his motivation is. if he has a movie coming out, something he's promoting but it looks like he's having for a little bit of attention. >> he does have a little bit to promote. suzanne, leslie, marshall, thanks. i was hanging out on the set of "the view" yesterday with elizabeth hasselbeck, first day back since she gave birth. >> she really does her hands full. her third child, a baby boy named isaiah timothy. >> and while i was there, elizabeth took time out to congratulation you on the birth of your beautiful daughter and she wanted to give you some mommy advice. watch this. >> okay. well, brooke, i would just repeat to yourself as often as possible. i'm a good mom. you're a great mom and you won't

believe it all the time because you're at work or doing other things or driving or doing something that has nothing to do with your kids. my strategy to avoid guilt or at least, deny it, phrase 50 times day. >> that is great advice. she seems to have adjusted to the balance. she seems to have adjusted beautifully. i hope i can do the same. >> and she was very, very happy for you. >> i know this alleged balloon family hoax is a serious deal. but it is also just so strange. >> the stories popped. time to hand out the coveted silver saucer. >> tonight we are picking out the most shocking, and weirdest moments of the whole balloon thing. i am calling them balloon whoppers. now the "showbiz" news ticker. making news right now.

well, if the balloon boy saga was a hoax, if it was it would have involved a whole lot of acting. did you see this? the awards for the best and weirdest moments from what may well be the year's weirdest story. >> reporter: it swallowed a canary, adrift in a balloon resembling an unidentified flying chef's hat. ♪ got a weather balloon looks like jify pop ♪ >> now that the story popped,

the silver saucer award for the most awkward moment, goes to the parpts. they seemed speechless when he said -- >> we did this for a show. >> no. >> so this pda, we award the silver saucer to the dad. >> i am just so gad he is here, you know? >> i am really sorry i yelled at him. >> mom had a supporting role with comforting rubbing. we award the silver saucer to the most heartfelt tears to the mother. >> during the 911 call. >> it's a flying saucer? >> yes. >> the silver saucer for worst acting goes to mom and dad during their reality show wife swop. >> no, i am talking from my heart. >> you are not my wife. you are a man's nightmare. >> the award for not acting but

acting out goes to young falcon. before the family's interview, wolf introduced himself. >> will you say hi? >> hi. >> who the [ bleep ] is woman f? >> falcon made faces, took his dad's phone and slapped his brother but the kids get the award forygiene when sneezing. the best balloon cameo goes"sa." >> but the saucer award for most genuine moment. goes to the brothers when he threw up on national tv. dad looks like he almost lost it. at least with a silver saucer award, you can eat it after receiving it. >> i feel like i am going vomit.

>> who the hell is wolf. >> i think the whole balloon boy thing is the most bizarre story we have heard or seen in a long time, one of the most serious is the charges against the parents could be filed neck week. i don't know why we are not calling him attic boy. he was not in the balloon. i am calling him attic boy from now on. >> remember you can catch "showbiz tonight" on the 11s. tonight on the joy behar show, most divorced women have heard a variation of the same theme. we have grown apart. you are not the person i married. it is not you, it's me. yeah. and most of the time i want to say okay, it's you. but no matter how it's said it

ends up in the same place, divorce court. joining me are women who lived through personal hells in a very public way.

tonight, a special show about the ugly and unpleasant side of love. i'm not talking about mark sanford's e-mail. i'm talking about divorce. it's all the rage these days from christi brinkley to mel gibson to the gosselins. celebrity breakups make the news and make divorce attorneys rich. this private hell isn't always played out on the public stage. 2.5 million americans have divorced in the past year and half of marriages in the u.s. end in splitsville. i tell you, divorce must be fabulous because everybody is doing it. join me and my panel of sadder but wiser ex-wives as we share stories of love and betrayal and

everything in between. whether you're a man, a woman, single or divorced or just planning ahead, you don't want to miss this special presentation. my guests tonight have something in common and no, it's not just that they're fabulous which they are. they've all had private divorces play out in the public eye. here we me now is marla maples, actress and radio host, and ex-wife of the donald. dina matos, ex-wife of former new jersey governor, jim

mcgreevey, who announced to the world that he was a guy american. she's also the author of "silent partner." and mary jo eustace, author of "divorce sucks" and whose ex-husband left her for tori spelling. you were married to dean for 13 years, right? >> i was. >> after a three-week movie shoot with tori spelling he announced he was leaving you for his soul mate. >> he actually broke up with me in a palm springs hotel room when i was in an ugly bikini holding my daughter in my arms. that's bad. it's sad. i know it. he just came in from a golf game. i sort of suspected something wasn't right. i said is something up? >> did you have a bad game? >> did you not get a par or whatever happens out there? he said i didn't want to tell you on vacation. i thought that's weird. i said have you met somebody? he said yes. i said is it tori spelling? he said yes. i said did you sleep with her? he said yes. she's my soul mate. i am leaving you.

she loves me unconditionally. i said what conditions? you've known her three weeks. i thought it was a joke. i thought i was being punked. it was true. it was true. >> dina, your ex-husband told the world he was a gay american while you were standing beside him. >> i engaged in adult consensual affair with another man, which violates my bonds of matrimony. it was wrong. it was foolish. it was inexcusable. and for this i ask the forgiveness and the grace of my wife. >> what were you thinking at that moment? >> i really wasn't. i was in shock because i had only learned three days before that he had been involved in a relationship and so i was really in shock. i was there in the moment.

all of the cameras flashing and all of the reporters but i compare it to an out of body experience. i was there physically but mentally, you know, i was just trying to maintain my composure and not fall apart in front of the cameras. >> i am thinking of the show "the good wife." they took those moments and put them in a fictional show. >> they've done a tremendous job with that show. i think really a great job with that role. i think it's very empowering for women to see that show because they realize that there is life after divorce. when you're going through it, you don't think there is. you think this is the end of your life as you know it. and in some ways it is. you feel powerless. and i think watching that and seeing how she certainly struggled -- >> she's rising from the ashes. she's solving the cases every week.

she'll have to lose a few. marla, you were married to the donald for six years. you had a very public wedding. i was at your wedding. i tell you quick story about that wedding. i took a picture of you and him or whoever and i got up to dance andmy bag at the table and when i came back from dancing, the film was taken out of my camera. it was like big brother was at your wedding. >> i wonder if someone was making money off wedding pictures and i didn't know about it. >> that could be. what was the worst moment for you? your divorce was public. it was splashed all over the

papers. >> i think it was mine was in the beginning of the relationship was maybe the toughest part. >> the beginning? >> yeah. in the beginning. you know, any time that you fall in love, you open your heart to many possibilities. you hope for the best. you hope that it's eternal. we all walk in dreamy eyed. we learn so much in our teens and 20s for what's real and what's not. the difficult times specifically were watching it played out in the media and not being able to control it and thinking i had to. the point is you really have to let it take its course and i always say that the truth or who you are inside is always going to be revealed to the people that it counts for. not being able to -- being out of control is a hard thing to have happen to you. >> did you come out looking better than him or vice versa? what do you think? >> i definitely think he's made a lot more money. he's done well with that tv show. i have the best part of the whole deal because i have sole custody of our daughter and that's a joy. >> he didn't fight you on custody of tiffany? >> no. i walked away. >> it's great you called her tiffany. >> that was his first big deal to build trump tower. will you let me name our daughter tiffany? you put it that way.

it is a good name. >> so how did you girls -- don't mind if i call you girls do you? >> that's a compliment. >> i like girls. sit like post-feminist. how did you bounce back from the news that your ex gave you thos days, anybody? >> you are in shock that this is happening. you were so blind-sided. and yours sounds as well. you're shocked. you're in complete survival mode. when the public aspect kicks in, what was weird the first week my divorce was announced i saw a picture of my ex-husband with his new wife's legged wrap ed around his head. >> how long ago was that? >> four years. >> ruined my lunch with my mother. they rewrote my whole life. they got my age wrong. they said i was 62 and old.

old and bitter. i'm only 47. >> look how good you look. >> that's a deal breaker. that would really piss me off. >> the age? >> yes. >> yeah. i sounded like i was in a wheelchair this crazy wife. in truth, that was far -- >> you're a gorgeous young woman. >> youngish. the way it happened is they rewrite your life. it's like you don't exist. it's very, very odd. >> before we go to you guys, i want you to take a look at one couple living out their dream marriage. >> i was verbally abused. i was beaten down. she separated me from my family. she used to hold the kids over my head and say, you know, don't spend time with your mom. spend time with your kids. >> he took $230,000 of the $231,000 that we have liquid. i have a stack of bills in my purse i can't drop in the mail. >> it's really hideous. that's a reality show, they say. i mean, is it real or are they

doing it for the camera? your opinion on that one? >> i've never seen so much press around someone that i didn't know who they were. >> they got more press that you got. >> the public must be really connected to this in some way. >> i don't know what way. he's on everything. isn't he? is he a star now? if he's a star -- >> he's trying to be a star. he and balloon boy's father. >> what's he going to translate this career into? >> marriage counseling? >> it's unfortunate for the children to have their parents out there certainly, you know, they have their own agendas but they have eight children that they have to realize that at

some point, you know, with youtube and the internet, this will all be out there for the children to read about. >> it's always tragic for the children. always bad. people are so crazy at that time. okay. we'll take break. coming up lance armstrong's ex kristen opens up about her divorce. we have a lot to talk about.

>> i want to thank all of you for your support throughout this ordeal. for me it's a very bittersweet moment because it really is the death of a marriage.

>> that was beautiful christie brinkley talking about her fourth ex-husband, peter cook. one more couple whose private hell was made into public fodder. i'm joined by kristen armstrong, ex-wife of lance armstrong. welcome, kristen. >> thanks for having me. >> i'm with christie on this. i want to take sides. maybe because i know them both. this guy had an affair with a teenager and spent thousands of dollars downloading porn. on top of being unfaithful, he's

a lousy shopper. what's your take on that -- do you think she has a right to be mad? >> me? >> yeah. >> just curious what you think of christie. >> i don't really know anything about their story. that did not sound good to me. >> he was going out with a girl who was about 30 years younger or something and downloading all of that porn. i think that she's -- >> that's not good. >> let's go to you instead of that. your divorce was out there because your husband, your ex-husband, lance, was dating cheryl crowe. how hard was that for you see them together in public like that?

>> that really wasn't the reason that our marriage -- they started dating after our divorce process started. it's funny because sheryl is lovely. for as much as that was painful for me at the time, you know, i really wanted to dislike her. i really did. she is lovely. she's beautiful. she's smart. she's funny. she was great with the kids. for as much as i wanted to dislike her and i tried, i couldn't. >> that's interesting. you know, in mary jo eustace's book, "divorce sucks," she says you should make friends with the new wife or the girlfriend because it's better for the kids but besides the kids, you did that with sheryl then. how did it all work out for you? >> well, i just think that when you have two people that have your children in common, i think when you can see that someone else really loves your kids, too, it does this makeover on your heart and you look at this person with fresh eyes. i think it's important. it's important for your kids. i think it's important for your relationship with your ex and ultimately a source of liberation for yourself. >> i like sheryl crowe, too, but she didn't run off with my husband so what do i know. you and lance have three kids together. you're very close friends with him.

how did you get to that point? >> it's been a long time and a lot of work. we were married for five years. we've been divorced for almost six now. and i think that when you are a couple that even if your marriage doesn't make it, if you're a couple that has children as a priority, you are really able to transcend beyond yourself and beyond your differences and look at ways to work through that and figure out how you can best go on loving the children that you have together and that is -- that's a beautiful thing. i think my primary concern when things started falling apart was i was so upset about not being able to show our kids what unconditional love looks like. and through working through all of our stuff together and coming out on the other side as friends and parents, i can look back now and honestly say that our kids definitely know what unconditional love looks like. >> that's very good. you sound like you really came out a winner in this. thank you very much for joining us. >> thanks. >> okay. i want to turn back to our panel now. it's interesting what she said.

you say it in your book. >> i think the way i phrase it in my book is that the new mother, the stepmother, has to defer to the mother. i think trying to one up the mother and engage the children is just toxic. you have to respect it. you have to respect that relationship. i think that if you do that, then the children are healthy. regardless if you get along with this new woman and if you're great friends or not, there's a certain respect and boundary. i think that's super, super important. i think that's the key to making it work. >> have you girls ever been the other woman also? >> i was. it was the worst situation to be in ever. i grew up in a strong baptist environment and it was never a situation i ever thought i would be in. you come into new york city from georgia and you believe everything you're told and next thing you know you turn around and you're caught up in this horrible scandal that you never intended. >> did you feel guilty? >> i felt broken. i felt completely broken. i'm a big believer that the judge comes back. we have to be careful about our

judgments in life. that was one of the things as a child growing up i felt was so gross is these men married hitting on younger girls and i ended up in a situation like that. >> did you ever feel like you were betraying the sisterhood in any way? >> what was explained to me is different than it was played out in the press. they were working on the divorce arrangements. he was talking to my parents on the phone telling them how much he loved me. it was very different for me than it was or how it played out in the press. when you're in love you want to believe the best. you don't want to see the ugly stuff. so often your heart is broken because the media suddenly you may walk in with good intentions but it's a horrible situation. >> it's also the sisterhood that's interesting what you said. i write about that in my book. what are you doing to an intact family? >> it's like that hall and oats song, leave him alone, he's a family man. >> there's some sacredness involved in a family. walking into that situation of full knowledge, my situation we

just adopted a little girl who was 7 weeks old. i write about that in the book. supporting other women. respecting the primary family. all of those things are really essential. >> you said something, dina, i was reading that you never felt that your husband loved you. you never felt loved by him in the marriage. >> i did feel loved. as marla said, when you fall in love with someone, you want to believe this is forever and this person is being honest with you. but my husband after his announcement i found some papers which i think were an outline for a book he was writing that said he married me for political gain. he married me because he wanted to become governor and perhaps president. >> do you believe that? >> i do. >> that's hurtful. >> that's very painful. >> we all do have each other and the sisterhood is so important and what was the most painful

for me was not being able to bridge that with the ex-wife. i really wanted to have that communication and be a woman to woman and talk about. >> interesting stuff. a bit later we'll talk to dina about the other man.

my next guest left a promising career as an actress on "law and order" to follow her husband to ohio. joining me now is an actress and author of "happens every day: an all too true story," isable gillies. tell us what happened to you. >> i was married. my ex-husband is a professor. he was at harvard when i met him.

we got married. we had one baby. we decided that -- i'm an actress. i was on "law and order" and i had a successful career thus far but i wasn't meryl streep so the life of a professor and the world you can create on campus and you can go to an interesting town and have a happy life with children in a very much less expensive house than living in new york so we thought that would be a smart idea. i thought it would be a great idea. >> what happened when you got there? >> we got there -- >> it's interesting you would think that would be more interesting life than showbiz. most people don't see it that way. >> i wanted a family. he's a very, very good professor. i thought it was a better thing to bank on his career than mine as an actress which is shaky and

doesn't have any stability in some cases, and i wanted to be a mother. >> what happened when you got there? >> i got there. i started living there and i started teaching acting at the college. we had a wonderful house and a very ideal life. and then he left me for a colleague of his who is a friend of mine. but i actually -- he left me quite suddenly. i ended up going back to new york and living with my parents and our children. our little boys. >> i could never come back to live with my parents. they're dead. i know that would be really creepy to live with them now. but it's very 1960s what you did. the i did that also. i went to rhode island with my professor husband when i was in the middle of -- i had a job.

i didn't have a career. it's very 1960s, 1950s thing to do. >> did you have children? >> i didn't have them at the time. i followed him any way. what was i thinking? if you have children, you have an excuse. >> except you know truthfully though, i don't think there's anything to regret ever in life. i mean, i had a wonderful time teaching. i never would have done that. i never would have lived in that part of the country. i'm from new york. i knew nothing about the midwest. i had beautiful children that grew up in a -- >> sure. >> and then i came back and pulled my socks up and said, okay, let's start again. and actually i was getting divorced on "law and order" when i was in ohio and i came back and saved that marriage. >> and the end of the story is you got your job back on "law and order" right? >> i got that job back. when i got to new york and living with my very wise mother and father, one day i was filling out applications for a school that was enormously too expensive to send my children to -- >> we're running out of time in this segment. what does your husband teach, your ex? >> poetry.

>> watch those poets. isable, stay there more on our presentation presentation in just a moment. sorry i had to cut you off, dear. ddddddddddddd

we're talking about divorce with some women that have firsthand experience. back with my lovely panel, marla maples, dina matos, and mary jo eustace. you all wanted to do that. tell me about the most violent >> tell me the most -- what did you do? tell me.

>> it didn't involve arson. he had a prize boflex. he wanted to buy boflex. >> what is that? >> you work out. he has to be in superb shape for his career. >> that's a tip-off. >> i said go for a run. he wanted a boflex. it was $3,000. i said you can get it if you work out every day. it sat in the garage and he hung workout gear on it. when i left, i put the boflex out on the sidewalk and someone drove by and just took it. i did also burn a suit of his. a polyester suit that he used to wear. >> it was sweet to him. you didn't say go take a hike. go for a hike. less hostile. i love it. let me talk to you a bit, dina. your case is different.

your husband left you for a man. >> right. >> now, is that worse than leaving him for a woman, do you think? >> i think so. >> for me it would be easier. my ego wouldn't be involved. >> i think it's very different when your husband leaves you for another woman, at some point you know there was love in the marriage and you had something. when your husband is not the person that you think he is, you know, he's an impostor -- >> it's weird. >> you start questioning every aspect of your life together. what was real? was that kiss real? was that vacation and time we had on vacation real? did he ever love me? why did he marry me?

later i found out why. >> for political gain you said. you didn't know he was gay until he announced it on television? >> right. he's never told me i'm gay. i read the words i am a gay american about an hour before we left for his press conference. >> there were no signs in the marriage that he was gay? nothing? >> no. no. >> some gay guys -- >> there were some issues. the only time we had the conflict was about him not spending enough time with me and my daughter. >> where was he? off with a guy? >> part of the time he was. his excuse was i'm either running for governor or i'm governor now. i'm busy. the president of the united states takes a vacation, you can't? >> i have to know more about this. a lot of girls i know, women i know, sort of going with gay guys and don't know it. everyone else knows it but they don't know it. i'm curious -- i'll be blunt. what about the sex? was there any sign in the bedroom? >> no. >> he was always into you? >> i talk to women who call me and contact me all the time and it's the same -- they're shocked. some of them have had, you know, some signs. there were some signs and i write about it in my book like the way he proposed and some

other things that looking back -- >> like what did he do? >> he never asked me to marry him. he just put a ring in front of me and said so what do you think? >> he's not romantic. that wouldn't mean he's gay. >> there's a lot of things that have happened. the fact he didn't want me to ever have a relationship or even talk to his ex-wife and acted really weird around here, stopped having mail come to the house once we were married, so i thought perhaps there's a problem. i thought that he was having an affair, if anything, with his ex-wife. >> with his ex-wife? >> that's rare, isn't it? >> yeah. hello. don't look at me. yeah. wouldn't it -- your situation is two-fold. you have the betrayal where you think he didn't love you and if you found out he had a love for you and found out he was gay,

would that be easier? if a man left me for another man but he loved me -- >> betrayal is betrayal. >> it feels bad. >> there's another level. there's another level because you question everything. >> makes you feel like you're crazy. >> yeah. >> isable, come back to me, isable. she's still there. aren't you glad your husband was just a poet? >> it does bring up the issue that everybody is so complex. if you have children, eventually you have to sort of take every complexity and everything that was done wrong and done right and sort of move forward especially for your children because they love their father, you know, just as much as they did when you were married. >> that's a big mistake.

my own experience. get the kids involved in the divorce and use them as a punching bag. it's the worst thing you can do. that's a terrible thing. i'm sure that none of you did that. did your husbands try to do that? yours did. >> uh-huh. >> dina, you have been carrying the cross. and then after the divorce you had to support your child and you have a foundation, i understand, that -- >> i'm the executive director of a foundation that raises money for support and research for a rare genetic disorder. >> what's it called? >> it's called k.a.r.e.s. foundation. >> that's good work you're doing. >> very rewarding.

>> at the end of the foundation what do you say to women out there in the middle of a divorce? there's a book called crazy time -- i read everything when i got divorced. i never felt so bad about anything. it was just a horrible, horrible feeling. yet, i have risen from the ashes as we all have. >> clearly, yeah. >> can you see divorce as a growth experience in some way? >> absolutely. >> especially in "divorce sucks." it kicks your ass. you feel dehumanized. with lawyers and fighting and feeling unloved and unloveable. and the media thrown into it. at that point if you don't become an advocate for yourself, there's nobody. you have to take care of yourself to take care of your kids. it can be life affirming. it can be a wonderful second opportunity in your life. i think it can be a very positive. the thing on the other side if you work at it -- you have to work at it. >> when you're in the center of it, it's hard. when you talk to women in the middle of it you just have to know that they have to let this pass through them and accept the pain and grieving period and it will be a period of time but on the other side you say, okay, now that this has come i'm ready to see what's coming next in my life. >> do i have time for e-mails? just hand them to me. we had e-mails that people sent in.

one girl just said something like my husband was so annoying i wish he had gone out with tori spelling. >> can i have her number? can i give her a call? >> people are writing a lot of e-mails to us about this. just slide them over here. look at bob. he's so cute. this one says -- this is a very profound thing someone wrote. go figure. a marriage based on sex will never last but most men cheat because they're unsatisfied sexually irony of that. my husband left me as i gave birth to my fourth child. can't you wait for the placenta to come out? >> i husband was sleeping with someone while waiting to give birth to my daughter. >> i was 20 years old married for two years. i needed back surgery. in the hospital recovering from

my surgery my husband brought me divorce papers to sign. he didn't want to be married to a cripple for the rest of his life. who is this newt gingrich? this is good. my favorite barbie is the divorce barbie. does that exist? >> yes. >> the most accessories. comes with ken's house, his boat, his car and a wardrobe. and then this other person says my divorce was a god creation. i discovered life after that. it was like dying and going to heaven. you girls out there who are in the middle of this, take heart because it gets better. >> you lose part of yourself in a marriage particularly if you support one who is a ceo or in politics because -- i certainly did that. you give all of yourself to him and to his career and you lose a lot of yourself and i think once you emerge from this, you get it back and you become the person that you were before. >> don't concentrate on stupid things. this is my advice. concentrate on what you have to do next rather than all of the distractions. going after his money unless he has donald trump money, i wouldn't bother it. >> i chose the child instead. >> you didn't get a lot of money. i know that whole story.

thank you, ladies. next, the lawyers weigh in. you know what that will be. expensive. don't go away. >> i was here fighting for custody. i think a mother's greatest fear is someone trying to take their children, trying to take custody of their children and that's what i was up against.

>> okay. that was david hasselhoff giving us insight into his messy divorce. once the big d becomes reality, how do you move forward? joining me to discuss and answer that question, debbie nigro, m. gary neuman and divorce lawyer fabulous raoul felder. okay. so he had a very public divorce, hasselhoff did. plus, we have seen that hideous drunken cheeseburger video. does it get any worse than a public divorce?

i'm not sure that a public divorce is worse than a private divorce. >> it's a hell to whoever has it. he was a mess before he ever got divorced. probably an improvement after he got divorced. >> he was a mess before, he'll be a mess after. >> the real mess is for kids. public divorces for children are terrible. just square the problem of divorce for kids. >> i was thinking about it. i was thinking i was nobody when i got divorced. it was a lonely thing. i would have liked to have an audience. >> divorce is a lonely sport for everybody. when we have kids, it goes on forever. >> it happens at school and the playground and then when they go to school and distribute a parents' list for play dates and father lives here and mother lives there and kids have to explain it. >> that doesn't always work when there's two different places the kids have live. gary, what's worse? being the person who gets dumped or the dumper? >> being the person that -- the dumped. the dumped is always such a

sense of failure and personal failure but when you get dumped, it really goes to the core. and then of course the problem is that like we say, people are at their worst when they go through a divorce and their children need them the most during that period. so it's a trickle down effect to the kids. they are all over the place. they're just dealing with their own feelings and now they have to be so attentive to what their children are feeling. it's a recipe for disaster. >> that's very true what he said. it happened to me. you're in the zone when you're in that crazy time of the divorce. you have to give to the children. it's like you have nothing to give. that's really a tough, tough time. >> i remember friday nights being a divorced mother. i was the dumper. >> you were the dumper? >> it didn't feel any better. ten years before i could come to terms with the decision i made that ruined so many people's lives. beautiful ex-in-laws. ex-husband was a lovely guy. >> your ex-husband was a lovy guy? >> yeah. >> why did you dump him? >> i was crazy back then.

women make decisions based on emotions and at the time they think life is not going where you're supposed to. >> did you have someone on the side? >> not at the time. >> you just said i need my space? that's unusual to hear that. >> i think sometimes people get married and while they're going through it they realize that maybe this is not where i should be going and people are coming to the wedding and too many presents so you just go forward. whatever the reason is, it doesn't feel a lot better and sitting there being a mother alone with your own emotions on a friday night when you rather be some place else knowing you have to be a great mother for a kid was a tough switch of personalities. i need mothers and fathers trying to keep a straight face when lives are in disarray. >> gary, do you think it's better when the guy just dies? >> sure.

nobody is at fault. >> let me hear from the shrink and then the lawyer. go ahead, gary. >> sometimes we say it would be better if a certain parent died if a parent cheated or has done something that has taken them out of sainthood to the child. sometimes we really think if that person would have just passed away they would have died a saint and that would be better for the self-esteem of the entire family. you don't wish it on anybody. >> what is worst? being a widow or divorcee? >> there's a great deal of rejection and failure. you can't compare tragedy. being a widow is terrible and painful. it does not involve the personal rejection that comes through the divorce. even if you're the dumper. you feel like such a failure under those circumstances. that's painful.

>> we prepared a stress table. having a fight with your boss, getting a traffic ticket. number one was death of a loved one. >> of a spouse. >> right. number two was divorce. and when i say that to people they said to me on occasion, you know, if the person died, that's it. i had no role in it. there's no failure in death. there's a failure in divorce. >> you have done some high profile cases. you were involved with the rudy giuliani case. he went on television and announced he was leaving her. >> that was distorted somewhat. >> we saw it on tv. >> i don't want to replay that. >> do i believe what i saw on tv or his lawyer? >> believe his lawyer in this case. this was a reaction to an announcement she made. that's unimportant. the point is when you have these

public divorces, it's terrible because there's no aspect of your life -- everybody has an opinion in a divorce. at least two people are living in the bronx somewhere and nobody bothers them. you get divorced. >> how about the case did you with mike tyson? did he bite you? >> he didn't bite me. i represented a lady who had a baby by him after that. he only bites in the ring. >> he made up the other day with holyfield on the "oprah" show. that was a beautiful moment. >> the thing in that case >> it's like some people have the image in the public. we have to take a break. we'll be back with my guests in a sec. don't go away.

okay. we're back with my panel. let me ask you something about the kids. you know? should kids go -- who are in the middle of a divorce -- gary, this is for you, too, gary newman our shrink at large here. the kids should go to some kind of counseling, i think, during the period when everybody's crazy. we talked about how you're distracted and can't pay attention. so don't you think it should be mandatory that the family should go through some kind of family therapy? >> the kids didn't choose it. they're forced to deal with the ramifications of it. they're splitting two households, going back and forth. >> they're experiencing the depression and loss and abandonment -- >> it goes on forever. >> -- the same as the parents are.

>> very much so. yeah. >> it's true. on another level, in a bad divorce case where you're fighting about custody, too many people monkey with the kids. fathers monkey, mothers monkey, people from the court monkey with them. the judges monkey with them. there's no way to win if there are kids in a divorce. >> yes. i think it should be mandatory. gary, i really think the balloon boy should start right now because that kid is going to have issues. that's not even a divorce. if you watch those people on "wife swap," they're rage-aholics. those kids are going to be in a lot of trouble if somebody doesn't intervene. >> a lot of states mandate parents to go to courses. my program is mandated in many states. children ages 6 to 17 go to groups with children their same age and talk about their issues as an automatic referral.

they have some role play for how they can speak up to their parents. >> okay. >> what i've seen happen recently, horrible, the mean gene escalates. as people don't get what they want from somebody on the other side. keeping one parent from seeing their kids. >> what makes people really nuts -- >> nuts is an operative word. they do crazy things when they get divorced. people do crazy things. >> i was watching -- >> they're polarized. >> yes. i saw this play and the play is about -- i have the power and it's making you nuts. you have the power and it's making me crazy. i think that's what happens in a divorce. one person has the power and they use the children to control the power in the relationship. >> especially if the person has been left and their ego is really hurt and have no self-esteem. >> sometimes it's not mean spirited. you know, when people are married they really do try to work together or put up with somebody else's issues with the children.

whether it's religion, school, whatever. when you get divorced, it begins to polarize and each person says, hey, the kids are at my house, now i think the kids should stay up, eat candy, do whatever they want to do. you can't tell me. before maybe i was feeding them your food. >> spite work. >> i'm sorry? >> a lot of it is spite work. >> and the feeling now i have control of my kids and i didn't all those years. it comes across to the children mean spirited. >> it's also weapons. it's a war so you fight with whatever weapons you have. >> one more quick thing. which costs more, a divorce case or murder? or what if it's one in the same? >> i had several cases -- divorce is much more expensive. >> divorce is more expensive. thanks very much. thanks to all of my fantastic guests for joining me tonight and thank you all for watching. good night, everybody.

breaking news. tonight, live, florida. a beautiful little second grader looks like an angel, walks the ten-minute walk home from school with her sister, her twin brother, all their little friends. she gets separated momentarily, broad daylight. 7-year-old somer thompson never seen again. 4:00, only an hour later, mom rushes home, flags down police. no good. now we learn of a kidnap attempt on a little 5-year-old girl also in broad daylight just one week before.

are they connected? it's only been 24 hours. she could still be alive. but where? >> a massive search right now is under way for this little girl. she is from north florida. she is 7-year-old somer thompson. and officials are asking everyone to be on the lookout. the second grader vanished walking home from school. >> somer's family is tormented. they have no idea where their little girl is. >> mom is not doing very well. you know, as each hour goes by, she gets less and less hopeful. >> the clay county sheriff is asking for information about a blue sedan seen in that neighborhood about ten days ago. they say that two men and a woman in a car tried to lure a girl near somer's elementary school. >> told me everything that happened and that they were trying to get her to get in the car and they said that mommy said get in the car, let's go

and i'll take you home and she said no. >> 7-year-old somer thompson has been missing now for more than 24 hours. last seen walking home from school. >> when you think about this and you think this can't be happening to me, this can't be happening to my family. but it is. and it's very hard. and tonight, a beautiful young virginia tech ceo d keeps tickets to a metallica concert for six months taped up on the fridge. she goes to the concert with all her friends, but just before the band takes the stage she goes missing. from a packed john paul jones arena holding 16,000 people. and nobody knows what happened? found in the arena parking lot, 20-year-old morgan's purse and cell phone, battery removed. >> if morgan is out there and hears us, please come home. and if someone has morgan, please let her come home safely.

>> virginia state police are asking for the public to help locate this missing virginia tech student. she is morgan harrington. she has not been heard from since she and her friends went to a metallica concert saturday night in charlottesville, virginia, john paul jones arena, uva. >> at the time morgan was at the concert she was wearing a black t-shirt that had the words "panera" written across it. she was also wearing black knee-high boots, black tights, and a black miniskirt. during the concert she became separated from her friends and has not been heard from since. >> morgan's a great kid. and this is very atypical behavior. >> she most likely will not have any identification with her and most likely will not have any cell phone with her. >> cops may have found her purse along with her cell phone. the family's pastor says what's really odd, the phone's battery

has been removed. >> we're pretty distraught with her absence. because we miss our little baby. also tonight, to texas. day five. a 3-year-old little boy in extreme danger. stolen from his own home after the boy's young mother found murdered on her bedroom floor. why? you know what? i don't care why. i just want to know tonight, where is 3-year-old mitchell romero and why did cops take down the amber alert? >> her husband who very well may have murdered her in cold blood still on the run, apparently has their 3-year-old child with them. police very eager to speak with him. >> just after 6:00 denver city police arrived to 212 east 10th street to find 29-year-old veronica romero dead inside. >> police say romero is considered a person of interest

in veronica's murder and is wanted for questioning. authorities in mexico are also on the lookout as reports surface romero may be trying to take mitchell across the border. >> last time he was seen was last week sometime. they don't know if he was with that child. they live together in the same house. how do we know that? because earlier this year he pled guilty to beating her up in that home. this is a scum bag who's capable of doing anything to people who makes him mad. nancy, lord only knows what he's going to do with this child when this child starts crying and asking where his mommy is. that's why we need to find this guy as soon as possible. good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. live, florida. a beautiful little second grader, looks like an angel, walks the ten-minute walk home from school with her brother, her sister, all her little friends. she gets separated just momentarily, broad daylight. 7-year-old somer thompson never seen again. it's been barely 24 hours.

she could still be alive. >> police dogs search the area around little somer thompson's home. deputies went door to door, then lined up to scour nearby woods as a helicopter searched from above. it's now been more than 24 hours since this second grader was last seen after school. >> it's the hardest thing, even telling them there's danger out there. and she's just very sweet and loving. >> we had an attempted abduction here in the city of orange park about ten days ago. >> i'm just thankful that my daughter got home safe. this car stopped her, lured her to the car, wanted her to get in the car, and my daughter said no. >> there was a blue four-door sedan, possibly a nissan, that was involved in this incident. if anyone knows anyone that drives a car like that that matches that description, that would just be one area that we'd like to look into. >> 7-year-old somer thompson

last seen where she went to school at grove park elementary. >> she's a 7-year-old girl. it is dark outside. it's very cold out here. it is a very concerning situation for us. >> it's just been a roller coaster. we keep holding out hope, hoping that we hear something. >> straight out to tiffany griffith with wokv radio. joining us from orange park, florida. there at the command post. tiffany, thank you for being with us. what is the latest? this is so hard to take in. she's with a group of children. it's broad daylight. they get out of school around 2:45 p.m. this couldn't have been much later than 3:00 p.m. what happened? >> and what we're also hearing, nancy, is that it's very normal for a lot of the kids in this neighborhood to make that simple quick walk home.

and this is what we're hearing. 2:45 she made the walk from orange park elementary school, she was with her little brother, she was with a few of her friends, and then at some point there was a little fight and she ran ahead of them. but at some point between when the other kids got to the home at about 3:05, they couldn't find her, she disappeared, nobody knew where she was. by 4:00 the mother calls home to make sure all of the kids arrived home safely. they said somer's not here. by the time the mother got home, she flagged down a deputy, and at that point several officers started to increasingly arrive here in this orange park neighborhood and there's just been a massive police presence in this area ever since. >> okay, tiffany, let me get something straight. they get out of school at about 2:45, correct? >> correct. correct. >> her twin brother and her sister, they're home at about 3:05, right? >> they make it home. correct. >> in 20 minutes this 7-year-old girl is gone? >> no sight of her, no sign of her anywhere.

and officers say that they have questioned everyone in this neighborhood including the 57 sex offenders that live in this area. in fact, they're spreading that search area out to another five miles so they can question an additional 37 sex offenders to see if maybe they had anything to do with her disappearance. but officers are saying that still they're no closer to finding her at this point. >> we are showing you a zoomed-out map with all 87 known registered sex offenders around the area there at orange park, florida. and don't think this is unusual. put your own zip code into the computer. marc klaas, tell them how it's done. and i promise you, all those little red dots will pop up just like there in orange park. marc? >> in fact, nancy, about 630,000 orange dots will pop up throughout the country. go onto klaaskids.org, check megan's law, pick your state, and it will take you right to your state's sex offender registry. or you can go to usdoj.gov and they've got a national registry

right there. it's absolutely mind boggling how many of these individuals there are. it doesn't matter where you live in america. they are in your neighborhood. marc, marc. look at your monitor. look at this girl. she's 7. she's in the second grade. a second-grade little girl, completely defenseless. she's only unaccounted for for less than 20 minutes. she's not alone. they're doing everything right. >> yep. >> and she's gone. to ellie jostad, our chief editorial producer. ellie, what can you tell me about an alleged kidnap attempt just one week before, not far away? that little victim was about 5 years old. >> right, nancy. this was one block away from where somer went missing. it was ten days ago. apparently, this little girl, a

little 5-year-old girl, riding her bike after school is approached by a woman driving some type of blue sedan. it might have been a nissan. the woman says "your mother told me to give you a ride. get in the car." the little girl doesn't want to do it. there are also two men in the car. luckily, a good samaritan happened by while this was happening, saw the little girl trying to take off on her bike, the little girl is crying. the woman pulled over and said "do you know these people?" the girl said, "no." at that point the car sped away, once they realized this other woman had intervened. and it was a near miss for this other little girl. >> and that was a hispanic female with two men in the back seat? >> also -- yeah. two men in the car. not sure if they're in the back seat. two men in the car, also described as hispanic. >> norm, do we have lisa rukab with us yet? joining us shortly will be the neighbor of this little girl's family. but right now there is actually a vigil going down for this little girl. the family, the neighborhood,

the community, all together tonight praying for a break in this case. back to tiffany griffith, wokv. i understand that in a couple of hours when it gets good and dark they're going to go out with an infrared helicopter? >> that's correct. and they said that this is going to be a 24-hour search. they're going to take those helicopters from overhead, search from overhead, heat seeking. they're also going to take their officers who are on the ground and keep searching through some very wooded areas within the area of this girl's home. >> we believe foul play is suspected due to the fact that the child's age, the size of the child, the cold weather last night, the fact that this is totally out of character for her, and we still haven't found her. that certainly is foul play.

27 hours since little somer thompson was last seen. hundreds of police officers have joined clay county in the search. jso, fdle, and the fbi are here. they've gone door to door. they've combed nearby woods on foot, searched on horseback, and scoured the area from above. somer's grandmother, debbie bowling, has been by somer's mother's side all day. >> as each hour goes by, she gets less and less hopeful. you know, you think about this, and you think this can't be happening to me, this can't be happening to my family.

but it is. and it's very hard. >> at somer's home, family and friends stop by, bringing food and leaving with flyers to pass out. everyone hopeful, desperate for some good news. >> we are hoping and praying that she is alive and that she is in our area and that we find her very soon. >> just so worried about her. this is not like her. she's a very, very loving little child and very friendly. if anybody knows anything, please contact us. call the police. call the sheriff. let us know something. >> oh, somer is such a sweet child. i mean, she has never met a stranger. that's the hardest thing, you know, to tell them there's danger out there.

and she's just very sweet and loving. >> this little girl just looks like an angel to me. she's a second-grader. she's only 7 years old. how many of us walked home from school with all of our little friends and our neighbors every single day? we had almost a two-mile walk. a mile and a half. every day to and from. this child was only unaccounted for for about 15 minutes. she was with her twin brother and her 10-year-old other sibling, the sister. they got home at 3:05. somer has not been found yet. we are taking your calls live. to sharon, alabama. hi, dear. >> caller: hi, nancy. with the type of job you have right now, covering these sad stories, how are you going to handle it when your children get of school age?

>> school age? are you kidding? at the play school they're at right now the teachers know it's me out in the parking lot staring in. i don't care if it rains. it's me out there with a towel over my head looking in. they just go -- because these stories. how can you forget a face like this child's? i don't know what i'm going to do when they finally go to school. i'm going to burn that bridge when i get there. what's your question, love? >> caller: i wanted to know if the mile walk from the school to her home -- what was it like, the volume of traffic? >> ooh. good question. to tiffany griffith, covering the story. she's with wokv radio, and she's joining us from the command post. you know, that's a good question. is there a lot of traffic between the school and her home? what kind of terrain is it? and does she pass, for instance, a strip center or a grocery

store or a target? is it rural? what is it? >> well, the area is mainly consisting of residential traffic. there's mainly homes in this area with a wide wooded area, a few retention ponds, a few other ponds. most of the main traffic, the main thoroughfare traffic that you'd see on the major roadways are a few blocks away. so fortunately, the only cars that would come through here are the people who actually live here or have their children go to school through here. >> bonnie in florida. hi, bonnie. >> caller: hi, nancy. how are you doing? i love your twins. i got nicknames for them. lulu and juju. >> i like those nicknames. i have nicknames. little baby man-man and little baby gr-gr. >> caller: oh, that's beautiful. >> what's the question, love? >> caller: first of all, if the little girl was 7, why would she let her walk home alone anyway? i have a son that's 10 and i don't let him walk home by

himself. does the mom work? >> the mom is at work. and she called home -- i remember my mom calling home every day around 3:30. she was working. my dad was working. sometimes he worked the night trick. and you know, mothers have to work. very quickly, tiffany griffith, isn't it pretty common there that all the kids walk home from this public school, they all walk home together? >> it is very common. and even going back to what you said earlier about this community, i mean, this community is pulling together. so losing this child feels like losing one of their own. 7-year-old somer thompson last seen where she went to school at grove park elementary.

7-year-old somer thompson last seen where she went to school at grove park elementary. she was walking home with a group of other kids, may have had some kind of argument with her brother or some of those other kids, ran ahead of the group, and that was when she was last seen, around 2:45. her mom then notified a passing deputy that she was missing at around 5:00. >> we're just so worried about her. this is not like her. if anybody knows anything, please -- >> to marc klaas, founder of klaaskids foundation. marc, she's only been gone barely 24 hours. statistically, she could still

be alive, right? >> well, sure. i mean, jaycee, elizabeth, and shawn hornbeck all proved there's always hope even after many years. >> wait a minute. everybody, you are seeing live feed of the vigil that's happening right now. marc, but are you suggesting that those are the exceptions? i thought it was within 72 hours it's likely the child is dead. but it's only been about 24 hours, right? >> of children that are taken by a preferential predator, 74% of them will be dead within the first three hours. that's why it's incumbent upon parents to be able to do a quick cursory search and if their children are still missing they should notify law enforcement. nancy, the way i see it right here, there are two probable and possible scenarios. the first is a preferential predator. the second one would be tied back to the nissan that was seen last week with the roaming gang.

if it's something like that, the possibility is very strong that there might be a human trafficking element in it. >> what is a preferential predator? >> a preferential predator is a pedophile. that's what it is. somebody who wants to have sex with little boys and/or little girls. in this case it would be little girls. >> please help us. the tip line, 877-277-6911. look at her. ddddddddd

we have a young lady who is 20 years old, she's a white female. her name is morgan dana harrington. she has long blond hair and blue eyes. >> police say that she met up with friends at jmu on saturday before coming here to the john paul jones arena for a metallica concert. now, police say she became separated from her friends around 8:40 p.m. saturday night. >> cops may have found her purse along with her cell phone. the family's pastor says what's really odd, the phone's battery has been removed. >> this is just not behavior

that she would have. you know, she to our knowledge did not have a boyfriend. and you know, there may be circumstances we're not aware of, but you know, i think morgan was pretty transparent with us. you know, and this is just not something morgan would do. >> she is as beautiful inside as she is outside. she has family and friends that love her and miss her. if there's any information that anyone could offer that would help us find her, we would appreciate you contacting the police. >> i actually did not see her that day. she was at our house. and i was working. and her mom and morgan picked out outfits that she would wear to the concert that evening. so morgan left roanoke about 12:00 noon and i did speak to morgan prior to her leaving.

the last time i spoke with morgan was at 2:00 on saturday, when she called me after she arrived safely in harrisonburg and was in harrisonburg, where she hooked up with her friends, and they drove with one of the friends to the concert in charlottesville. >> we are taking your calls live. out to tim martin with newstalk 960 wfir, joining us from roanoke. tim, look, this is what i find hard to believe. this girl had the tickets to the metallica concert taped, posted up on the refrigerator, for six months. why would she get up and leave her seat just before they take the stage? >> i think that's a question the police are asking, nancy. this whole thing started as an innocent trip to see a concert. the question now, did something terrible happen to 20-year-old morgan harrington, a junior at virginia tech? police say she was attending the metallica concert at the john paul jones arena. friends say she went outside before metallica even took the stage. they say they're not sure why

she went outside but she never returned. police found her purse, cell phone, with the battery out of it. then 16 hours later, the next day, around noon on sunday, her father calls the friends, they say we haven't seen her. he then calls police, and this whole thing just goes wide open, nancy. >> okay. stacy newman, our producer on the story, what more can you tell me? >> well, nancy, what i can tell you is state police as well as university of virginia police are converging there. john paul jones arena. as we speak, nancy, just trying to find leads. they also are asking concertgoers who had cameras there, who had cell phones and may have taken video, if they have any pictures of 20-year-old morgan harrington. >> stacey newman joining us on the story. so the cops are just now converging? why? >> they're not just now converging, nancy. they actually have been there

since about i think sunday -- >> okay. >> -- but what did happen is because of bad weather over the weekend they couldn't put choppers up until monday. >> okay. good point, stacey. tim martin, what about surveillance video in that arena? i mean, 16,000 people? surely somebody saw what happened. >> you know, absolutely right. and that's what police are looking into. and they're really asking the people that were at this concert to check their videos, check their camera phones, because somebody may have a picture of this girl on their phone. they may have key evidence, you know, in their purse or something and not even know it. that's something police want to see. they say they're following up on leads today, or yesterday. they canvassed the area, they had choppers up, dogs out. they're just trying to pore through this information right now, and obviously it's not coming fast enough for a very worried family. >> this girl is beautiful on the inside as well as the outside. she looks like a fairy princess. a 20-year-old virginia tech student majoring in education, the world in front of her. you're seeing photos of morgan harrington from facebook.

and joining me right now, taking your calls live, her mother, gil harrington. miss harrington, thank you for being with us. >> thank you so much for letting us come on and put morgan's information out there. i appreciate your time so much. >> you know, i have a little girl. she's about to turn 2. and i cannot imagine, miss harrington, pouring my heart and soul into her and her brother and then somebody making off with her or her just vanishing like this. you were with her in the hours right before she went to the concert. what was her frame of mind? what was she talking about? >> i mean, she was excited about the concert. she brought home three outfits that she tried on for me, and we chose one, and she said, mama, it is a rock concert, so this probably is not what you would choose, but is this one okay? and you know, it was cute, and she was covered, and i said yeah, that one will do fine.

so you know, we're pretty close. and i was excited for her. you know, you have to give your kids wings. >> i mean, she's 20 years old. she should be able to go to a concert with all of her friends. and i've got to tell you something, miss harrington, you did something right. because there are not a whole lot of 20-year-olds who would ask their mom what they thought of the outfit she was wearing to a concert. if they thought their parents wouldn't approve, they just wouldn't let them see it or they'd sneak out and change behind your back. tell me about your little girl. >> you know, morgan has a really -- a pretty close relationship with us. especially with her dad, if you can imagine. dan with long blond hair. they look the same. the temperament is both the same. both of them are pretty mellow. she's involved in many different things.

her friends have the same core group of girls. she doesn't really date much. in fact, very little. the same group of girls that she's been friends, hanging out with since high school, do things together. >> was that who she was with at the concert? >> with some of her girlfriends, yeah, that she has been -- >> miss harrington, what are they telling you about why she left right before metallica took the stage? >> you know, i don't really know that piece. and i don't know that they know that piece. i mean, it's one of the questions that we need to ask her. >> okay. we're taking your calls live. to jamie in arizona. hi, jamie. >> caller: hi. how are you, nancy? >> i'm good, dear. what's your question? >> caller: my question is the battery missing in the cell phone. i find pretty odd. i was wondering, could it be possible that there was some type of a struggle where the

phone might have fell and the battery fell out and when they threw the phone back in the bag to act like, you know, it wasn't missing they didn't even realize that the battery had strayed from the phone? >> good question. to vito colucci, private investigator, author of "inside the private eyes of a p. eye." veto, i find that extremely intriguing and possibly probative. in other words, it might prove something, that the battery was removed from the phone. now, it's very important, when they found the cell phone, was it put back together or was it possible that it cracked open when it fell and the battery flew out? now, on a blackberry that's easy to do, but on cell phones it's not as easy for the battery to go flying out. >> that's true, nancy. most cell phones it is very difficult. you know, if you watch "csi" and all these law shows nowadays, they're starting to show that if you take the battery out it stops that whole ping process that's going on. so maybe the individual, rather than an altercation of a fight and a struggle, maybe somebody

took that out purposely. i called an official for -- a high-ranking official at verizon just to verify that and they told me that's indeed what happens nowadays. >> to the lawyers, pam hayes, randy kessler. pam hayes, you're a veteran defense attorney, former prosecutor. if somebody intentionally took the battery out of that cell phone, they have much more malice aforethought. much more planning went into this. >> yeah, absolutely right. what happens is they were just trying to cut down on the fact that maybe that they could follow the different poles of the cell phone because what happens is there are poles that pick up exact locations of where the persons are, if they make any phone calls, et cetera, et cetera. so i envision it as they were just trying to kill the trail early on and, you know, that's what happened. >> you are seeing photos right now of morgan harrington, age 20. 5'6", 120 pounds, blond hair,

blue eyes. last seen at metallica concert. take a look. tip line, 434-352-3435. we're taking your calls live. her mom is with us right now. as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to one of our superstars, jillian. she loves britney spears, and she loves crusading for a charity founded in honor of her late mother, the kfo foundation, giving help to those suffering from m.s. happy birthday to our little crusader, jillian.

we miss our little baby. she is our precious daughter. we hope that this attention can help bring her back to our home. >> morgan harrington, somehow separated from her friends at an arena in charlottesville, virginia, hasn't been seen since saturday night. she's a junior at virginia tech, very close to her family, calls home every day. and mom and dad say it is so out

of character for her to just disappear with no contact. >> a group of friends she went with are friends from middle school. you know, from what i understand she went to the restroom and they then got a call from morgan that she was outside the arena. >> it is suspicious to me that she ended up outside the arena, and it makes me wonder if she saw someone she knew and walked out. >> people do come up missing. however, it's very unusual that we have not heard anything, either from her friends or from her family, regarding her whereabouts. >> if anyone has seen morgan, either in a store or by the road after the concert, anyone that looks like the description of morgan, please notify the police. it would be very helpful to all of us. >> i want to go back out to tim martin, news talk 960 wfir.

tim, i'm just having a hard time understanding why she left and why her friends aren't telling police or the mom why she left, who she left with, anything else like that. certainly they wouldn't let her just walk off and not find out where she was going. >> well, and -- absolutely. i mean, this is a girl who loved metallica, as you said, had concert tickets on the refrigerator for six months before the concert. and you know, it's intriguing. a lot of people don't understand, you know, why the parents weren't notified that night. you know, the friends drove back to jmu. the father had to call morgan's friend just to find out she was missing. and that was 16 hours after it happened. and that could be 16 critical hours that police could have been searching. >> tim martin, you're absolutely correct. to morgan's mom, gil harrington, joining us live tonight, taking your calls. gil, it was 16 hours later. why didn't the friends bother to call and let you know? >> you know, morgan has this group of good friends, and she doesn't have any biologic sisters, but these girls are kind of her chosen sisters and they do cover her back. and they all would do anything for each other -- >> well, wait a minute, miss harrington.

that just doesn't make sense to me. if they're covering her back, why weren't they concerned she was missing? unless they think she was somewhere else. >> i think the disconnect is that children think that they are invincible. and i think that was the disconnect. they're good kids. they've been in and out of my home since they were young. they're holding a vigil for her on thursday. there was no wrongdoing on anybody's part. it -- i don't really know how the crowds work at something as big as metallica, never having been to a concert like that, but i think people do get lost and i think kids think -- >> did they all just go on home without her? >> i think they waited for a long time and were not able to hear from her or get her by phone. >> okay. out to randy kessler.

randy, if someone has made off with her, the fact that her cell phone battery was intentionally removed from her cell phone is very probative. >> you've handled your share of prosecuting domestic violence cases where you're in an argument, the powerful person who wants to be in control yanks the phone out of the wall and says you can't call the police, now what are you going to do? it might be a similar action. if they were going to throw them off the lead they would have taken the phone and put it in someone else's car. so i think it shows there was some sort of struggle. also why did she leave? maybe there was a guy she liked, maybe she was poisoned, maybe there was this date rape drug, she felt sick and excused herself. and maybe her friends thought she was having a good time with someone she liked. there are a lot of questions. >> to lauren howard, psychotherapist joining us out of new york. lauren, in some misguided way, do you believe the girlfriends thought they were covering for her? >> absolutely. i find it highly suspect that she's with a group of her girlfriends, she excuses herself right before the concert say, to

go to the bathroom or whatever reason she used to leave, and she goes alone? that to begin with is unusual. usually, a friend would go with you. and for them to have left that concert that evening and not notified either her parents or the police to me implies that they knew that she was meeting someone. that's the implication. >> or thought she was. that's a good point, lauren howard. and very quickly, stacey newman, the video surveillance in that concert hall that holds 16,000 people, do we know how often they roll over? have they already taped over that night? >> we don't know, nancy. but i would imagine it is because they have so many events there, so many concerts, basketball games, disney on ice, you name it. video evidence is probably gone. everyone, we're switching gears, still taking your calls live. a 3-year-old little boy missing. take a listen. >> veronica romero was laid to rest in the tiny texas town of denver city. this is a city of only about 4,000 people. i talked to one longtime city worker today. they said it's been at least a decade since there's been a murder in this city.

her husband, who very well may have murdered her in cold blood, still on the run, apparently has their 3-year-old child with him. police very eager to speak with him. >> straight out to michael board, woai news radio. what's the latest with this missing boy? >> the latest is they have actually canceled the amber alert here in texas now. the police department in denver city, texas, is focusing on the investigation now into where mario romero is. they believe according to prior reports that he may have slipped across the border, may be in mexico hiding out there with his 3-year-old child. it's a very dangerous situation we have right now. they are very worried about this 3-year-old child and what may happen to him. the father has a history of rage, uncontrolled rage. what is going to happen? is he going to snap again, and what could he do to this 3-year-old child? >> with me right now is a very special guest, the sister of the murdered mom found dead on her bedroom floor, maria esquivel. miss esquivel, thank you for being with us. >> thank you so much for having

us with you. >> first of all, tip line, 806-592-3516. what happened when you went to the home and realized she was dead and the baby is gone? >> the first thing that i thought was he killed her. we walked in there, my daughter, crawled in through the window to open the door was because we knew something was wrong. tuesday evening, real late. and wednesday morning, that afternoon, we just had to, had to go look for her. my daughter crawled in through the window and unlocked the door and we just kind of stood there and looked around and we went into her bedroom and the first thing i seen was my sister laying there on the floor. i just went hysterical. it's something that i never thought would happen. not to her.

not to my sister. >> when did you realize that the baby was gone? >> caller: we realized that he was gone because his sister came about tuesday night -- tuesday night or wednesday night, asking to see -- if i had seen my sister.

with me right now, dr. titus duncan. atlanta medical center. dr. duncan, thanks for being with us. can you tell how long the mother had been dead? what i'm getting at is, how much of a head start did the perpetrator get with the little boy? >> several ways you can tell how long the body's been deceased. first thing you look for is the temperature. the temperature and the color of the body. after that the rig more to us that sets in. and the first thing like i said is the temperature of the body.

the body decreases in temperature by one degree per hour. and so, you can kind of get an idea as to how long that person has been dead within several hours if you find the person fairly early, until they get to the point where they reach the temperature of the surroundings. >> doctor, would there be insects if the body were indoors? >> absolutely. there would be insects inside. >> what insect? >> you get the larva. basically, the little small insect that comes from the material itself? you mean a maggot. >> right. you have to break it down from our lawyers, doctor. we're just j.d.s not m.d.s like you. >> you heard what dr. duncan said. how long do they believe this beautiful lady had been dead, her son missing? and why do they believe the husband has headed to mexico? >> they believe she was murdered either tuesday night or wednesday morning. and it is very possible that she

was murdered by her husband while their three children were in their home. that's a distinct possibility. they believe that his in mexico because he has family there. both his parents and a brother in mexico. >> lauren howard, we only have a couple of second. say these children are extremely young. would they remember the murder if they were in the home in. >> they would not remember it concretely. they would remember it in a sort of dream state but their abstract reasoning is not developed. it would not have the force of a trauma -- of a real memory blocked or otherwise. >> 806-592-3516. this child, gone! let's stop and remember army staff sergeant kyle rorly. a soldier soldier. had a smile that lit up a room and lost his life after a surprise visit home for his anniversary and watched his brother graduate from med school. loved sports, riding a motorcycle and playing with iraqi children. leaves behind his parents, four

siblings and widow and high school sweetheart, and a 10 year old girl named after him. kyle weihrly, american hero. see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp eastern. until then, good night, friend. i'm brooke anderson and this is "showbiz tonight." the portrait of a mad scientist? brand new revelations about the dad behind the "balloon boy" saga. exclusive new details about his reality show passed. and a brand new interview. kate gosselin reveals how hard the split has been on her eight kids. that's your "showbiz tonight" news break.

we start at 11:00. we'll be right back.