right now on "showbiz tonight," fired over sex. espn sportscaster steve phillips gets the boot after an affair with a young coworker. the great debate that erupted today. did the punishment fit the crime? wait a minute. how come he got fire and david letterman didn't? tonight, bad news for oprah. "showbiz tonight" breaks big news today about oprah winfrey and her weight loss advice.

plus, is oprah giving jennifer aniston her own talk show? the truth squad is on the case. defending the balloon boy dad. the claim that we should feel sorry for him. what the heck is that all about? tv's first most provocative entertainment news show starts right now. i'm a.j. hammer broadcasting tonight and every night from new york city. >> i'm brooke anderson coming from hollywood and fired for sex. espn sportscaster steve phillips paid the price big time for cheating on his wife with a young production assistant he worked with. espn told the announcer to take a hike. and that young production assistant who allegedly tried to pull a fatal attraction on

phillips, "showbiz tonight" learned she is also out of a job with espn. let me tell you what i heard a lot of people debating today. how come phillips got fired and david letterman did not? bringing you the explosive developments making for big news today. an affair that made headlines. steve phillips, the smooth talking and very married baseball analyst for espn. >> here doesn't pass the gut check. >> and seedy valiance with much younger assistant brooke hundley who harassed his family. >> this is the modern day fatal attraction. >> glen close talked about it on "the view." >> drouf advice for the lunatic? >> go get help. >> the 46-year-old baseball analyst and his p.a. reaches a fever pitch. they are throwing them both out.

espn sacked steve phillips last night and just today they confirmed to "showbiz tonight" brooke hundley is out too. a sex scandal with a married tv important and a much younger subordinate. haven't we just seen this movie? >> this is yet another in the icky old man sex scandals we have to deal with. >> the "new york post" published reports filed by steve phillips, his wife and oldest son and claim hundley terrorized them after he ended their brief affair this past summer. >> i have a crazy woman who is involved with my husband coming to my house to harm me and my children. >> they frantic call placed by his wife marnie told police hundley showed up at the phillips's connecticut home while marnie was alone with their 7-year-old son. >> did she confront you? >> she has been threatening me via text and phone calls.

>> phillips claims hundley used an alias to contact their 16-year-old son online, asking for dirt on steve and his wife. now "showbiz tonight" can say she made accusations of her own. >> brooke filed a restraining order claiming that steve was the aggressor. >> hundley filed for a restraining order against phillips the day after that creepy alleged visit to the phillips's home. >> she claims in the do you means that we got her hands on that steve gave her drinks and told her to come up to his suite and coerced her into having the relationship with him. >> hundley withdrew the complaint and police didn't pursue charges against hundley. there affair is now a huge story. >> i have had sex with women who work for me on this show. >> this whole mess is drawing

comparisons to david letterman who was forced to admit his own interoffice relationships after someone tried to black mail him. he kept his job. >> there does seem to be an epidemic of very powerful men in television preying on younger women who in subordinate roles. >> tmz's mike walters said phillips and letterman are two different affairs. >> letterman didn't break rules according to his contract. we don't know what espn's contract says about dating. >> phillips and his ex-lover are out of a job and phillips is out of a marriage. his wife filed for divorce. everybody is humiliated. >> this got really out of hand for everybody involved and i think at the end, it costs everybody a huge amount. >> it's the question on everyone's mind and the "showbiz tonight" debate. was it right to fire steve

phillips for having sex with his coworker? jane velez mitchell is the host of issues with jane vel iz mitchell. she is the author of this incredible book. i want, my journey from addiction to a simple honest life. $5 prep.com. steve phillips and the woman he had sex with, brooke hundley both out of work for having a consensual relationship that ended really, really badly to put it mildly. is that reason enough for steve to be fired? >> i don't think he is fired for having sex. i think he is out of there because he exhibited unprofessional conduct and questionable judgment. the woman less than half his age. he is also married with children and he is a defactor boss because even in he is not a direct supervisor, he has power

and authority to wield over subordinates in the office. on top of that, he has a track record of doing this kind of thing when he was the mets general manager and sued for sexual harassment and had an affair with an employee and settled out of court. this could be the tip of the iceberg. there was nasty stuff in that restraining order. we don't know if work e-mails or locations or computers were used. we don't know the half of it. >> for espn, it came down to image. listen to how they explained to us why steve phillips was fired. his ability to be an effective representative for espn has been significantly damaged. what do you think? should he have been fired? >> absolutely. i can't compare him to david letterman. david letterman is of the biggest brands in hollywood of all time. you also have to think about the bottom line. how does steve departing from

espn affect espn? they don't care. he is not even in the same league as david letterman. that would be a major shake-up and affect a lot of people and the network financially. it's no surprise they let him go. they don't need the headache. >> we learned that brook hundley is also no longer working for espn. we don't know if she was fired or quit. should she have been fired as steve was? >> again, i don't think she was fired for having sex, but being an alleged loony tune full of nut who is terrorized steve phillips's wife and children. if she did half the things being reported that she is alleged to have done, she exhibiting way beyond unprofessional conduct. these are potential criminal charges. they want it to go away. >> this broke after david letterman's admission that he

was having sex with several employees. let's break it down a little bit. david letterman hosts the late show and runs worldwide pants, the company that produces the show. steve is a high profile baseball analyst who admits to having an affair with a 22-year-old employee. he is not her boss. he gets the boot as well. you can't really compare the two, but looking at the similarities, how do you explain phillips getting fired and dave not so much? >> phillips is nowhere near the same league as letterman. when you look and you are a network and trying to decide what's best for our network, cbs decided it's best for the network to keep letterman on because of the brand and what he brings to the table. phillips doesn't bring that type of power that letterman does. it's an easy decision. they don't need the headache and the drama. they had to deal with erin andrews and now there is another scandal involved.

cut the ends and start fresh. >> i want to get your take on it, jane. why do you see why he got fire and david letterman did not? >> david letterman doesn't have a history of being sue and settling out of court for sexual harassment. from everything i have read, it needs to be looked at. it's a jock culture and i suspect there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. in the restraining order, this woman claims she told her supervisor something and the supervisor said get used to it. >> there is a lot to look into. another big story breaking tonight. suzanne's stunning apology to patrick swayze. she made a shocking link between his death and his chemotherapy. larry king asked sommers about that. >> what did you say about patrick sidewaysy and where did you say it? >> don't go anywhere. you don't want to miss her answer. >> bad news for oprah.

"showbiz tonight" breaks big news about oprah winfrey and her weight loss advice. i don't think oprah is going to like what we are about to reveal. is oprah really working with jennifer aniston for jen's own talk show? would you watch it? we are on the case. defending the balloon boy dad. the remarkable claim today that we should actually feel sorry for him. what the heck is that all about? does anyone really buy it? >> more stories from the "showbiz tonight" newsroom making news right now. >> you are watching "showbiz tonight" on hln.

watch the bottom of your screen for more nonstop, compelling and provocative news from showbiz tonight.

welcome back to "showbiz tonight." i'm a.j. hammer. >> i'm brooke anderson. suzanne sommers's out of the blue apology to patrick swayze. after he lost his battle with pancreatic cancer, she made a link between chemotherapy and patrick's death, basically blaming the treatment and not the cancer for his death. with me in hollywood is a senior editor with "in touch weekly" and mar vet britto, a publicist and brand strategist. ladies, listen to what suzanne, a breast cancer survivor herself said days after patrick swayze died. they took this beautiful man and put poison in him. why couldn't they have built him up nutritionally and gotten rid of the toxins in his? larry king asked her why she made such a disturbing statement.

>> you said that -- what did you say about patrick swayze and where did you say it? >> at tom ford's private party. i shouldn't have said it. now that you then story, i was so raw from my chemotherapy experience, so raw from watching farrah fawcett die. it's an epidemic. i wrote a letter of apology to his family. >> how did it get out? >> a reporter. he did not identify himself as a reporter. >> was it fair to apologize for something said at a cocktail party and not on the record. >> anything you say is on the record so i don't think it was unfair to apologize, but i think suzanne is passionate about alternative medicine. she personally experienced it and was moved by the loss of patrick and felt what she was saying and sharing would be helpful, not harmful. >> i think it was terrible she

was misled by this reporter and thought she was having a private conversation and in the end, i think best to apologize. she revealed on "larry king live" she wrote a personal letter of apology to patrick swayze's family, but sticks to her guns about her theorys about cancer treatment. kim, i think suzanne may be getting slammed here. some people think that she out there. >> yeah, that could be part of it. she is being slammed because she is not a doctor and talking about a lot of theorys that may have worked for her and that's great if she talked about what helped her, but obviously she is not a medical expert. people are going to criticize her. i don't know whether these are right or wrong, but she is not naive to the industry. she has been in the business for a long time and know fist she goes out and says something at a party or larry king, people are

going to slam her for it. >> people are going to pay attention. she feels strongly about her opinions. she does have a right to speak her mind. thanks, ladies. >> the showbiz on call phone lines are bombarded about the biggest loser trainer jillian michaels slamming oprah winfrey. >> jillian said oprah's weight loss advice is misguide. we got a call from nicky in california. she said maybe they should work together. >> the issue with jillian and oprah, why didn't jillian take the time to go with oprah and teach her the new tricks and oprah can learn new advice on how to drop the weight and keep it off. i think jillian has a big heart and oprah and a beautiful lady skinny or heavy. i think the two together would make an excellent team. >> pretty good idea. >> we heard from jackie who

called in from new york. jackie said jillian may have an ulterior motive here. >> i think jillian just wants to be noted as oprah's trainer. you know when somebody is noted by oprah, they become millionaires overnight. >> appreciate your call. the phone lines are always open. >> give us a ring at 88-sbt buzz. 888-728-2899. leave a voice mail and we will play your calls right here on "showbiz tonight." your calls are now on the website, cnn.com/showbiztonight. bad news for oprah. "showbiz tonight" breaking big news about her weight loss advice. i don't think oprah will like this. is oprah working with jennifer aniston for jen's own talk show? new details in the jon and kate divorce drama. the angry war of words ramped up

today after a court hearing. judge did jon lash out on the court steps? rosie o'donnell's break up news. what's the deal and what is going on with rosie and her long time partner, kelly. rosie gave the story today and we will have it for you. it is time for the "showbiz news ticker." more stories from the newsroom making news right now. >> you are watching "showbiz tonight" at hln. watch the bottom of your screen

for more nonstop and compelling news from "showbiz tonight."

rosie's big break up. she and kelly carpenter are having problems. sirius xm satellite talked about it candidly. >> kelly and i -- not this week, but listen, the thing is kelly and i have a very strong connection. i'm not -- >> stay with her then. try to work it out. >> we are trying, howard. she is very beautiful. absolutely beautiful. she definitely gets you.

>> sometimes she gets me too much and thinks do i want to do this. i understand. it's not a walk in the park. >> rosie said she and kelly came to the conclusion that it may be better to not live together, but they will continue to be parents to their children. chris brown is reminiscing about the good old days with rihanna before he beat her. on his twitter account, he hosted a video montage made set to the tune of r kelly's song the way we used to be. here's a little bit of that. ♪ it included this message. i'm sorry, y'all. just had to post it. >> our facebook page is filling up about the michael jackson

movie, this is it. it was made from footage for what was supposed to be his final concert tour. not everybody thinks it's a good idea. i personally won't watch it because it's much too painful. i will carry him in my heart forever. cara writes it's a good thing for the move to come out. there a ton of people really excited about seeing the movie and michael on stage. i have my ticks and ready to g. i want to hear from you and follow us on twitter for breaking news alers. sign up for our facebook and twitter pages. >> the showbiz lineup at the top of the hour. "showbiz tonight" breaks big news about oprah and her weight loss advice. she is not going to like this. is oprah really teaming up with jen aniston? defending balloon boy dad. claims that we should feel sorry

for the guy. the tyler perry-spike lee smack down or race and comedy. now the "showbiz news ticker" and more stories making news right now. >> you are watching "showbiz tonight." keep watching the bottom of your screen for more nonstop, compelling and provocative news from "showbiz tonight."

the great debate over the balloon boy hoax. the startling new admission that the balloon scam was a bunch of hot air. today a big name comes to the defense of the heene family. shouldn't we feel sorry for balloon boy dad? tonight bad news for oprah. "showbiz tonight" breaks big news about oprah and her weight loss advice. she is not going to like what we are revealing. is oprah giving jennifer aniston her own talk show? jon and kate face off the same day kate answers heated

questions on national tv. more stories from the "showbiz news ticker." tv's first most provocative entertainment news show starts right now. >> welcome back to "showbiz tonight." i'm a.j. hammer broadcasting tonight and every night from new york city. >> i'm brooke anderson from hollywood. tonight, defending the balloon dad? you heard me. a "new york times" columnist set off a raging debate after saying it's time to lay off richard heene and cut him some slack. it made for big news breaking today. we had just learned that heene's wife admitted to cop that is the whole balloon fiasco was in fact a hoax. brand-new, people are saying cut the heene some slack. he is trying to make money. people are fired up over this 1 and let the great debate begin.

>> wait, there is more. we have new details in the jon and kate divorce drama. the he said she said hoopla was back in court with another hearing and more angry words were tossed around. why was kate a no show and why did jon lash out at her in public on the courthouse steps. joining me tonight is jane velez mitchell with issues. you can catch her program and you should here on hln. let's begin with this raging debate today about the balloon dad. in a new column in the "new york times" renowned columnist wrote that everybody needs to lay off heene. rich said this is a guy who was trying to make a buck. he saw an opportunity and specifically he wrote once his appetite was whetted by the appearances on wife swap, it's easy to see why he would turn

his live and his family into an audition for more terms in the big tent of the reality media circus. jane velez mitchell, does he have this right and can we fault him for trying to work the system to his favor? >> he is totally wrong. his article scares me almost as much as the balloon boy stunt. this guy put people's lives at risk. they were deploying choppers and discussing sending a rescuer from the chopper on to the balloon to cut it open to rescue the kid. what if somebody died in the process? not to mention he is forcing his children to lie allegedly according to his wife and the child is so traumatized, every time he is confronted, the poor child throws up. to me this is child abuse. 'we saying because this guy had a reality show that makes it okay? there people doing prison time for stealing a tv set. this is far more potentially

dangerous and destructive than stealing a tv set. this guy should be prosecuted to the max. >> believe it or not, there was a moment when we thought it was true and it was for real and maybe there was a kid in this thing and now we learned that heene's wife did fess up to the cop that is the whole thing from the beginning was a great big balloon hoax. court documents reveal her husband and her instructed the three children to lie to authorities as well as the media regarding this hoax. and lie they did. almost. we remember when the son was supposedly in the balloon told wolf blitzer the whole thing was just for a show. watch how painful it was for heene to squirm out of this one. take a look. >> you want to ask him now. i don't know if you can hear me. he said we did this for the show. you want to ask falcon?

>> falcon, they want to know why you were in the attic for so long and why you said -- say it again. >> it looks like he didn't want to ask the question. he was uncomfortable. a lot of people at that moment when we thought it was for real felt sorry for this guy. do you now a little bit? >> i don't know if sorry is the right word. i think he got in way over his head. i think hollywood create this is climate and the more outrageous you can be, the more you can get a reality show. the buck stops with richard heene and he makes the decisions and he's the father and it falls on him. if there is executives saying do something outrageous and maybe we can get you on a television show, he is playing with the world of entertainment that it's something he got a taste with

with wife swap. i don't think he fully understood the power of what he did. in that regard i feel sorry for him. >> i think i understand this was what rich was saying that he was a product of our culture. that doesn't make it okay. the facebook wall is blowing up over this today. it was blowing up like a balloon. not a single person feeling sorry for him. alissa writes no one should be defending him. he is exploiting his kids to get a reality show. >> thisity loti probably will get a reality show and people will watch it. jane, they are on your side. jennifer has a point. people may not be forgiving, but a lot of people may not admit it, but probably watch a reality show if he did one. >> i hope he doesn't get a reality show. i think he made a mistake of giving it away for free. he did the reality show. it aired on cable channels as we

covered it. he didn't get paid for it and i don't think anybody will be interested in watching him do something else because he won't top that. >> brooke anderson, let me bring you back in. i will not watch it unless it is a homework assignment. >> i feel the same way. this guy makes me want to throw up like his child who was forced to lie when his parents did this. he taught them to lie and to see, it makes me upset because parents should not use their children. >> let's pop the story and move on to an explosive story breaking today. jon and kate expected to court today to account for all that money they both took from a joint account. kate, a no show. what does jon do? he complains abouticate in a press conference on the court steps. he was saying he was a little shocked because i top the get through this together with her

and she keeps avoiding, avoiding, avoiding and that's the kate gosselin way, gis. why? give me a good answer as to why jon feels like he has to discuss his business in public. he hasn't learned to please shut up. >> there is only one explanation and this could be the biggest hoax, bigger than balloon boy. heidi and spencer are coaching jon gosselin on how to handle the media. it's the only explanation. the back and forth is ridiculous at this point. there has to be a type of conspiracy going on because there is no other explanation. >> i need a quick response from you, jane. kate's lawyers are saying she wasn't required to be in court. she did the paperwork. why, jon? >> i think these people are possibly more contemptible than the heenes. the heenes made one bad

decision. they make bad decisions day in and day out, season in and season out. >> jane velez mitchell, appreciate you being here. >> brand-new bad news for oprah winfrey. big news about oprah and her weight loss advice. i can tell you she is not going to like what we are about to reveal. also, is oprah giving jennifer aniston her own talk show? rumor has it aniston could be dishing on television pretty soon, but would you watch? did you see this? the frightening idea behind dressing like america's favorite pitchman. the billy mays look alike halloween contest. is this just inappropriate since he died only a few months ago. you will not guess who is behind this idea. >> more stories from the "showbiz tonight" newsroom making news right now.

>> right now i want to you keep watching the bottom of your screen for more nonstop, compelling and provocative news from "showbiz tonight."

did you see this? you too can be billy mays for halloween. his son said if you want to scream at your neighborhoods like he did, just do t. billy mays iii launched where is billy mays.com. he asked people to send in photos for a contest. critics said it's morbid, but mays iii said it's all in the spirit of positivity. he died suddenly in june. i'm a.j. hammer in new york. >> i'm brooke anderson n hollywood. big news about oprah and her weight loss advice. i can tell you the news is not good. oprah winfrey might want to stop sharing advice on her talk show

after we show you the results of a shocking poll that only we can share with you. the showbiz truth squad has been on the case all day on another new story. the target? jennifer aniston. the case? is oprah giving jennifer aniston her talk show? a senior editor with "in touch weekly" and new york's publicist and brand strategist. this brand-new oprah weight debate began with jillian michaels, one of the trainers from the biggest loser was asked by health magazine what who she would like to train. she said this. if there is someone i think is utterly misguided is oprah winfrey. she had a thyroid problem andate soy. she so misinformed it is shocking to me. soy is terrible for you if you

have thyroid issues. we asked and the showbiz question of the day oprah winfrey, do you trust her weight loss advice? the results came in and a whopping 84% said no. only 16% said they do. kim, are you shocked by the results? >> you know, i am really shocked. the fact is oprah is not a political operative, yet a lot of people trusted her opinion on obama and the election. she is not a book critic, but if she endorses a book, it goes on the bestseller list. if she puts a product on her favorite things list, it goes out of stock. i think you look at oprah and she struggled with her weight and people do trust her. i'm surprised. >> they look at her advice like the gospel. is this bad news? >> i don't think at all. oprah never officially endorsed

any product. if you decide to follow her influence, she speak being what works for her. everyone's dna is different. if you adopt treatment thaus think are best for your body, if it doesn't work for you, fine. she is sharing her experiences and for her to say what oprah should or should not do, her viewers have a will and a choice to choose and that's what they do. >> that's true and i don't think this is going to make a dent in her viewership. her fans are not going to abandon her over this. i have to say that our facebook page is exploding with comments about oprah. samantha d. said maybe oprah should can it for once and listen to what someone else has to say. after all, jillian won her battle with her weight and oprah has been trapped in a losing battle for years. do you agree that oprah should stop giving weight loss advice until she gets her own weight under control?

>> no because people identify with oprah. more people had the same situation that oprah had. jillian should go on the show and this is why people love her show. they identify and relate to her and struggle themselves. >> they can identify with that. i think this is a tricky one. she needs to make sure she approaches it carefully. i top the move to the report about jennifer aniston getting her own talk show on oprah's cable network she is launching. they are working all day on this and late this afternoon, a rep for jen called the report "completely false." no disrespect, but i personally have doubts if jen could pull off hosting a talk show. what do you think? >> i think jen is a movie star and should stick to leveraging her brand against movies. i never saw her host a show and

and heard of her being interested. she should stick to what she does well. >> stick to her strengths. what got it started was this. her appearance on e's chelsea lately. she asked jennifer what she is drinking because she has a great body. jennifer was pretty funny. >> i drink vodka. >> that's what i drink e. that's my drink of choice actually. it's a clean liquor. no sugar. >> that's why i drink it, but it doesn't seem like the same thing is happening. >> first of all, you're crazy. second of all, how many are you drinking? >> so kim, she does seem to have a good sense of humor. is this such a far-fetched idea? >> she is really funny and if she did this, people would definitely tune in. she would have to change her entire personality.

jennifer aniston is known for being a private person. if you have your own talk show, you have to be someone like oprah who is willing to put herself out there with weight issues and tyra banks with a bathing suit with cellulite and takes off her wig. until she is ready to do that, i don't think we will see a talk show from her. >> my thoughts exactly. she would have to be very open about her personal life and she is not used to that. good to see you, ladies. now we want to hear from you. we have been asking to you vote on our question of the day. jennifer aniston, if she hosted a talk show, would you watch? keep voting and e-mail us at "showbiz tonight." >> donald trump's daughter ties the knot over the weekend. i vavanka posted this picture. the reports that it was a jewish

wedding are true, but did donald's good friend regis philbin sing at the wedding. he answered that question this morning. >> i read in the blogosphere that you saying. did you sing? sang? >> where did you read that? people have been coming up all day saying, what are you singing tonight at the trump wedding? i said what? >> i heard you were singing. i read that you sang. >> that blogosphere is crazy. >> unbelievable. no singing from you? >> no singing. >> though it just got less exciting. >> according to people.com, ivanka and her husband plan to honeymoon in africa. >> spike lee and tyler perry two of the most talented filmmakers in the industry. what has got them in a brand new hollywood brawl with each other the tonight tyler perry is striking back after spike lee slad h slammed his work.

this is showbiz tonight on hln. keep on watching the bottom of yosh screen for compelling provocative news from "showbiz tonight."

thank you, charles. welcome back to showbiz tonight. in a brand new ibts view, tinte slams lee. in an interview with 60 minutes tyler made it clear. >> spike lee has said, i quote, i think there is a lot of stuff that is out today that is buffoonery. i see ad for meet the browns and house of payne and i am

scratching my head. we have a black president and we are going back. the image is troubling and harkens become few amos & andy. >> he is talking about you. >> i would love to read that to my fan base. all of these targets are disarming, charming, i can slap her in something, talk, god, love, faith, forgiveness, family any of those things, you know. i think that pisses me off, it really does. >> how so? >> it is so insulting. it is attitudes like that that make hollywood think that people do not exist and there is no material speaking to them speaking to us. >> perry's next project is precious the collaboration with oprah winfrey. said to be spectacular. and will hit theaters in november. >> tonight, paul anka's angst over michael jackson's single. in a brand new interview, anka explained why he nearly sued jackson's estate after not

getting proper credit for a song he wrote with jackson the he was on the view this morning the they played a portion of the song in question called "this is it." listen to this. ♪ this is it here i stand i'm the light of the world i feel grand ♪ >> anka said the song was originally called "i never heard" and he was upset he never heard anyone give him credit for the song. on "the view" he said it was a case of lost studio tapes and he spoke to michael about the song a few years ago. watch this. >> what happened michael obviously copied those original tapes, put them away, all these years later what emerged is, we wouldn't be sitting here. that copy that he had in his drawer of my tape was the one that they used thinking that it was a new song. a few years later i was in a lawyer's office, and one of the attorneys come in and said michael jackson's next door he

wants to meet you the i am still smarting a little. bygones i went next door and he said i hope you are not still mad. i said michael don't worry about it. >> anka said it was an honest mistake and he hashed out everything out with the estate. anka will get 50% of song royalties. >> i'm going to see "this is it" tomorrow night. that is showbiz tonight. i'm a.j. hammer in new york. >> i'm brooke anderson in hollywood. remember, you can catch us on -- take care. on tonight's "joy behar show," the king lives, on the big screen, anyway. michael jackson's new movie hits theaters on wednesday and some family members are hitting the roof today. is atheism really what god had in mind? godless journalist, christopher hitchens and pastor doug wilson take me on a collision course. and a second lawsuit is filed in the sedona, arizona,

sweat lodge tragedy. three people are dead but we still need to know who's to blame. coming up next!

tonight, controversy over the upcoming michael jackson movie, "this is it." the king may be dead, but long live those royalties. then, is atheism the new religion? pastor doug wilson and author christopher hitchens will join me for a spirited debate. he's not really a plumber and he's not really a political strategist. that hasn't stopped him from campaigning for republican candidate. joining me in the studio, joe the plumber. all this and more starts now.

the michael jackson movie, "this is it," opens this week and already there's controversy. jackson's father says body doubles were used to fake michael's appearance and other critics say the film's producers are squeezing one last payday out of jackson. who died in june. joining me to discuss, firpo carr, friend of the jackson family and former jackson family spokesman. roger friedman, showbiz411.com. brian monroe, former editor of ""ebony" magazine," the man who conducted jackson's last major u.s. interview. welcome to everybody. i want to start with the clip. take a look. ♪ i've never been in love before ♪ ♪ ♪ because you're the one ♪ the way you make me foal

♪ the way you make me feel >> okay. firpo, are you going to see this movie? >> no. >> why not? >> i do not believe that it is an accurate depiction of michael jackson. i understand he was under duress when he was doing this whole thing and it was not a pretty picture. in fact, i've been contacted by fans all over the world, over 90 countries, and some of them are boycotting it. >> oh, really? roger, do you think this is a way to celebrate michael's life or actually profit from it? >> both. there's going to be profit from it. the profit is going to go to his kids which is fine. it's going to pay off what it cost to put together the concerts that didn't happen in london. it's also a great way to celebrate michael's life. there's nothing wrong with this film. i notice the fans, some fan group has gotten together. you can find a conspiracy in any subject. they want to say that something's been altered, the music's been altered, michael's body's been altered, whatever. nothing has been altered. these were films taken at the rehearsals. they weren't going to be used originally for a film. they were just being taken.

when michael died they realized they needed some proof he was not in bad shape before he died. >> uh-huh. >> so -- >> all right. >> we'll get to see it tomorrow. >> yes. his sister, la toya, said she won't see it. listen to this. >> you guys going to go and watch the movie as a whole family? >> no. >> no, it won't happen? >> where will you see the movie? >> we're not seeing it. >> at all? >> thank you so much. >> oh, okay. >> okay. you know, firpo, you know the family well. what do you think is behind la toya's refusal to see it? >> still the unresolved issue of how michael died. there are those who think in the family it was not just an accidental homicide. that it was planned and premeditated. this is what many of the family members think. >> who would have planned it? of course, you have some -- excuse me, if i could just finish. you have some family members who feel, oh, no, it was accidental. there are some suspicions around

that we have yet to -- unresolved questions we yet to have some answers to. so my own thoughts are that, yes, we have some problems here. there are some questions that i would like to have answered. in the meantime, we feel like, hey, we'll boycott it. we won't watch. >> joe jackson, the father, he is saying the film uses body doubles and he doesn't like that. producers are reportedly denying that. do you think he's trying to delegitimize the film so he can make money out of it? because he's not making any money. it's going to be making, they say, an estimated $400 million in sales, between the movie and cd. that's a lot of money. >> joe jackson has exploited his son's death right along. tomorrow night he's charging $3,000 a ticket to show the movie in las vegas to michael jackson fans. come meet joe jackson. he altered the trailer for the movie and put it up as an invitation to this thing. now the trailer says "hi, i'm joe jackson. come see my son's movie."

the problem is the family was cut out of the will completely except for the mother and kids. the rest of the family is at war among themselves because they don't know what to do. they don't know how to make money out of this fast enough before the whole thing dies down. they're the great exploiters. >> wait a second. hold on, firpo. brian, reports are the children do want to see the movie. what do you think about that? good idea? >> yeah. i think if the kids want to see the movie they shouldn't be stopped from seeing it. look, when i sat down with michael close to two years ago, he had his son, blanket, with him. that was a genuine father/son relationship. i think that was one of the strengths michael had in his last months and last days. i don't think anyone should stop those kids from seeing the movie if they want to. it will be an image of michael that will be positive. >> how much of the film profits will go to the children? >> depending on which numbers -- >> go ahead. >> as much as 70% to 80%. >> that's right? >> yeah. most of it is going to the kids.

most of it goes to the estate, but that's a lot of money. most of the estate goes to the kids. >> that is a lot of money. >> i mean, i would -- i'm sure there are a lot of people who will be happy to take 30% of that. 30% of $400 million is still a lot of money. >> that's a lot of money. >> absolutely. the fact 70% or 80% may go to the children is really a secondary thing. i mean, yes, they deserve it. it's their father. >> why is it a secondary thing? what do you mean it's a secondary thing? >> here's what i mean by that very specifically. you have individuals who are going to recoup a lot more than they put into it. that's what the family is saying. >> like whom? >> like who? aeg. some of the others. sony. you have these individuals -- michael, quite frankly, from what i understand from where i sit was displeased with on certain levels. you have these individuals getting a lot of money and the family is saying wait a minute, wait a minute, he didn't like you guys.

>> look, this isn't about liking or not liking. this isn't about liking or not liking. he's going to -- >> one at a time. guys, guys, guys. i have a control the -- go ahead. >> there's going to be a lot of money to be made out of this film. out of the music. the 100 or so singles that have yet to be released. it might as well go to those kids and his mother and family. >> agreed. >> it's not a question of might as well, actually, because it was left to them. >> it was left to them. >> that's it. >> you're right. >> so don't you think that the family -- don't you think the family's a little ticked off that they're not getting any of the money? maybe that's why they don't want to see the movie. isn't that possible, firpo? >> it's possible, but knowing the family as i do, that is not how they feel about it. >> why? they've lived off of michael jackson for years. >> if i can just finish. our brother has been exploited. when this whole thing happened. his siblings would say our brother. our brother has been exploited. i'm not saying i am, we know that already, roger. please, let's be reasonable

here. not only that, the parents are saying our son is being exploited. the other relatives are saying our cousin or uncle is being exploited. >> how's he being exploited if all the money is going to his kids? >> he's not around anymore. how is he being exploited? >> how's he being exploited? >> here's what they're saying. he was being exploited when he was practices. when they were pushing him. he was being exploited when they said, reportedly, someone said, listen, michael can't do this. he himself, i heard a tape where he, himself, said i just can't do that many. what was said that was, hey, listen, throw chicken at him and fatten him up. i'll carry him on stage if i have to, reportedly is what one person said. on tape. on tape. >> no one said that. >> are you saying the children should get the 70% and the rest should go to the rest of the jackson family? is that what you're implying? >> not at all. >> who should get the other 30%? >> what i'm saying some of that -- what they're concerned is not so much about the money,

irrespective of what roger friedman said. it's about our brother. he is dead. i think -- that's out of the entire equation. a person has died. >> let me get this straight. they're upset because -- wait a second. he was exploited during the filming of this thing. they don't like that. so they do not want the money to go to the children? i don't get it. >> no, they don't want the money to go to -- >> this guy is going to keep talking and talking. >> the persons who have -- >> let brian talk for a second, please, firpo. thank you. go ahead. >> this is the kind of bickering that created a lot of tension in the family up until this point. i think at the end of the day, let his children, let his fans enjoy michael for the artist that he was in his last film. was it cut? was it edited? i'm sure it was. much of his stuff was. this will be an image of michael jackson in a way many of us remember him. at the end of the day. left the image of michael live on through the movie.

>> some of his fans and others apparently, firpo, and other people are saying the promotors covered up his poor health when it was ruled he was healthy when he died. the autopsy showed that everything was fine except his nose was missing which i still find odd. >> i'll tell you something -- >> there are a lot of extra noses. >> what was up with that? >> you definitely hear something. if ever the same was true, don't believe everything you read -- >> why he had his nose to the grindstone. >> that's disrespectful. have some respect for the dead, please. >> firpo, if these people are saying he was overworked and not healthy when he was making the thing, we can eliminate murder for the reason he's dead, right? >> no. no, no, no. i think she said firpo, hoed ld for a second. you can have some one that is

overworked, and then someone who's murdered after that. they're not mutually exclusive. >> what do you think? natural causes or murder? what do you guys think? one at a time. >> i think there are a lot of people that will have issues on their hand about did they have anything to do with michael's death? from the doctor to the music company and the promotion company. at the end of the day michael was responsible for his actions, but also was a victim of those around him who wanted to take advantage of him. >> thank you. you have the last word, roger. we are running out of time. >> no one wanted michael jackson dead, first of all. there's no conspiracy to kill him, no conspiracy to wear him down so people can grab control of his fortune. this is all nonsense. >> the coroner ruled his death a homicide. dr. conrad murray may be charged with manslaughter. >> dr. murray is is not going to get any money out of michael's estate because he killed him. he killed him probably accidentally, probably from giving him the propofol. that's it. that's it. the companies had nothing to do with it. >> thanks, guys. up next, are you good

without god? come on back.

new subway ads in new york city have renewed the debate in america about religion and god. i thought this would be a perfect time to bring in the stars of "collision" a new documentary on religion and atheism. christopher hitchens, self-proclaimed anti-theist and author of "god is not great." and pastor douglas wilson. i saw the movie and enjoy the

movie very much. it's very, very interesting. i don't want you two to rehash the debates. i want you to make me understand where you're at and people who are watching the show. because, you know -- okay. let's start with you. can you give me in a nutshell, pastor, a case for god? >> okay. >> that god exists. >> one of the things i would want to do is ask about where your starting point is. who has the burden of proof? so does a ford automobile have the burden of proof of demonstrating that there was a henry ford or that there wasn't? who has the burden of proof?

a lot of this debate is actually scrambling for the high ground of who has to do the proving. who has to do the maintaining. who carries the burden of proof? now, for -- >> who do you think carries the burden? >> i believe the one who denies the self-evident fact that god exists and created the world, i think that is the person who has the burden of proof. >> you say it's self-evident? >> yes. >> to those who believe? >> those who believe. those who don't believe, you know, if you watch this movie "collision," it's like watching diving competitions in the olympics. the judge comes up with a completely different score. you know, two points, ten points. so this is the sort of debate where atheists go to it and think christopher carried the day. believers go to the debate and think -- >> there might not be a solution to this, christopher. >> i think there is one. i can't avail myself of the almost beautiful circularity of pastor wilson's argument. i wouldn't want to show any burden of proof. if someone says i don't agree with them, i might be condoned to eternal punishment. snakes talk. dead men walk. what atheists say is not that there is no god, we couldn't possibly prove that. we say there's never been any evidence, there's never been a

convincing philosophical element there is such entity. the natural world is much more wonderful. >> you don't -- pastor, you don't really believe that snakes talk and that noah had all those animals on the boat, do you? >> i believe the bible. i'm a christian. >> it sounds like you're too intelligent to really believe that literally. i understand your faith. that all those animals were on the boat? come on. >> come on, we're -- we're animals and we talk. >> we're primates. >> and we talk. >> yeah. >> by the way, that's -- presbyterianism -- they used to say we were primates. probably without us in mind. we're very likely not the object for divine design. more modest to think we aren't. >> christians aren't going to make any headway by trying to split the difference between faith and unbelief.

if you have unbelief and faith and you split the difference, you just get a muddled form of faith or muddled form of unbelief. i'm not interested in trying to dilute the bible to make it acceptable to people. >> yeah. >> so if i'm a christian, then i do what jesus says, believe what he taught and that sort of thing. that's what a christian should do. >> what about this idea of jesus, christopher? you don't buy it at all i take it? >> i don't think he was the son of god. >> you don't? >> i think his mother was a virgin and i don't think he died or was resurrected or revived or resuscitated. even if he was, he would only have that in virginal birth, miraculous circumstances, mysterious death. it wouldn't prove even if it could be prove wouldn't prove his doctrines were true or moral or ethical. >> does it surprise you to know that einstein probably believed in god? >> i absolutely know the contrary is true. he was a panthiest or deist. he did not believe in a god that

could intervene in human affairs. would answer prayers. would take side in a war, would care what you ate or who he had sex with. >> there's a certain self-absorption in the idea the sky god is watching me, particularly, do my show right now. there's something strange about that. do you believe that? do you think he's watching you specifically right now? >> jesus said god numbers the hairs on our head. >> so does google. >> yes. is there self-absorption in that? >> yeah. >> here's the fundamental issue. of course you can believe in an omniscient god and believe in it in a way that flatters yourself. there are have been all kinds of believers who take the doctrine that god knows all things and has the hairs of your head numbered and do it in a self-flattering way, self-absorbed way. it does happen. it's something that can humble you if you think about it correctly. it helps put everything in

perspective. >> it makes you too humble. it makes you into a servant. >> hang on a second. we're going to come back. i want to hear more about this and more about the ten commandments and whether we really need the ten commandments to be good people. hang on tight. when we come back we'll do more of this.

created -- it's against freedom, it's against science. this is a wicked cult. it's my time to leave it behind. >> that was christopher hitchens making his blistering case on atheism. i'm back with the star debaters. let's talk about the ten commandments, for example. do we really need the ten commandments to be good people? i know not to murder somebody. i didn't need to be raise the catholic, even though i was, to know that.

>> right. part of the problem we come up against is that we have been inculcated in the ten commandments. the tenants of the ten commandments for many centuries then we kicked the ladder away. me climbed up high, kicked the ladder away and see how high we are. >> what did people do before the ten commandments? they didn't murder or else we wouldn't be here. >> look at crime rates. if sin disappeared overnight, if somebody waved a magic wand and sin disappeared, our economy would collapse. we are -- >> what do you say to that? chris? >> that doesn't need me to say anything. i have tougher stuff to say. >> go ahead. >> the story isn't true. the wandering in the desert -- that's the jewish version of the christian mythology, it's worse than talking snakes. what was written long before, don't do to others what you

wouldn't want done to yourself. the first three or four commandments are saying, you must fear someone you love, heavenly dictation. they're not moral at all. truth is either self-evident. don't murder, don't steal, and don't commit perjury. then the others are putting women on the level of beasts and saying they're among the chatles of your neighbor, you shouldn't covet. >> let's go at this from another angle. take the code of homeroby. and confucius. >> an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. >> eye for eye, tooth for tooth was given because it used to be -- before that a life for a life, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. strict justice was imposed to keep these things from escalating out of control. the reason you have these codes enforced by armies and police departments and that sort of thing is because people don't obey them naturally and

spontaneously. >> what do you say to that? >> there's no commandment against genocide, no commandment against slavery, no commandment saying parents should respect -- be nice to their children. why is this? in the next chapter the so-called children of this terrifying god are going to be ordered to commit genocide. they're going to be ordered to enslave them and be ordered to kill their children in the name of god. >> that's not very nice. that's not very christian. >> this is completely relativistic. >> i read somewhere, i saw -- it's a wonderful film, by the way, which i'll keep pushing for you. >> good for you. >> that you were spanked. that's not very nice to spank a child. why do you think that's a christian thing to do? >> i was the kind of child that needed it. >> all kids say that and they didn't -- it's so wrong to spank a child. it's so not christian. >> you can get to like it. >> i know. there's a lot of repercussions. christopher, pastor wilson, thanks. "collision" premieres in new york on wednesday and in l.a. thursday.

the dvd is available exclusively at amazon.com. )d)d)d)d)d)d)d)d)d

mayumi heene, mother of the so-called balloon boy, has apparently confessed she and her husband, richard heene, planned the whole my kid's in the sky and we can't get him down scheme that captured the attention of the entire country almost two weeks ago. joining me are clinical psychologist, jeff gardere. criminal defense attorney david schwartz. former prosecutor, lisa pinto. hi, lisa. she's out there somewhere. okay. now, david, let's start you. it's been 11 days. it seems they have a confession from the mother. why are we still waiting for charges to be filed? >> it seems like we have a confession. the mother did not confess early

on in the case. we don't know exactly what she said. these confessions a lot of times are coerced. there's tremendous peer pressure to make the confession. there's tremendous societal pressure to make some sort of statement. we don't know what she said. >> what's the point of a confession then. >> it's not so easy. it's a gray area here. we don't know what she confessed to. unless we see the entire statement, of course, it's the police that write down the statement, not the person that's making the statement. >> time to take the kids away. >> okay, lisa, go ahead. >> why weren't they filed as soon as mayumi confessed? >> i think the one federal charge is that they lied to the -- he lied to the faa. i think the feds are trying to take their time to make sure they have a recording of the call. the local charges, they need to get the kids' full statements. the issue here, joy, is, let's take the kids away. it's enough already.

he's got them lying to the authorities, hiding them in attics, much less saying he's floating them in balloons. the police have been to this house over domestic violence. he's got a prior for vandalism. not a safe place. >> you know something? today's news said that roman polanski, who's charged with raping a 13-year-old girl several years ago, if he comes back to the united states he's only going to get two years ago. they're going to take the kids away and put him in jail. doesn't seem equal to me. >> i don't think it is equal. we know it's a dysfunctional family, and the kids certainly there should be some consideration given to an investigation by child welfare officials. we can't just say, lisa, just go ahead and take the kids. we don't know what's really going on. what we do know is richard heene, mayumi heene, they are not model parents. they teld thoold those kids to . when you put together everything else, the charges of domestic violence, the past, and

certainly seems that richard has some sort of a very flash kind of anger, some real impulse control issues -- >> i saw him on "wife swap." he has anger issues for sure. so does she, by the way. >> yeah. yeah. absolutely. >> lisa, why do you want to take the kids away so quickly? isn't that jumping the gun a little bit? >> i think these kids are in danger. this family -- the parents will do anything to promote themselves on television. they met in acting school. i feel the kids are ancillary. put the kids with a safe relative while they have a chance to talk about what was really happening. >> lisa, i know you're looking out for the welfare of the kids, but then what might be the psychological damage to the kids if you're putting them with foster parents and then they have to shift back to these parents? maybe they are criminals in what they did. what they did was criminal. they haven't killed anybody. >> let me put a legal spin on this. let me say one thing. in this country, we don't just take kids away.

we don't just grab -- wait a second. we just don't grab kids from their parents and just take them away like lisa pinto. there needs to be a full process. there needs to be a hearing involved here, lisa. >> david, i'm not talking -- >> behind what you're saying -- >> i don't. >> go ahead, lisa. what were you going to say? >> everybody is accusing me of putting them with the gestapo foster parents. i just want a psychologist like dr. gardere to talk to them in an unforced atmosphere where we can really learn what living with those two kooks was like and where they can be with relatives that care about them and love them and nurture them and put their after-school sports before the balloon episode. >> that's her opinion and she's entitled. do you think one of them would face harsher charges if it was discovered one of them came up with the idea of the hoax and the other went along?

>> that's a legal question you guys will jump on. i believe there are real issues with richard heene. i believe he's leading all of this. i believe, it's my opinion, this may have been his idea. i think the rest of the family are really scared of this guy. i think this guy with his flash anger, you know, he's someone who might be a little bipolar, manic if you ask me, i think they fear him. >> to answer your question, though, if you're 1% involve with this hoax, you're as guilty for the entire act. that's what the law says. >> legally, psychologically if she's a battered woman emotionally and following his lead, she shouldn't be doing as much time as he would. >> all right. >> guys -- >> lisa, hang on. i want to switch gears. a second lawsuit has been brought against self-help guru james arthur ray. listen to this. you might know about this story. for running a sweat lodge in sedona, arizona, that turned deadly. in total, 21 people got sick during a two-hour so-called cleansing ceremony where

temperatures reached 120 degrees and 3 people have died. people were not restrained, mind you. he just discouraged them from leaving the sweatbox. so how culpable is he, actually? >> well, first of all, from a civil standpoint, there are going to be civil lawsuits. from a criminal standpoint, like you said, he didn't physically restrain these people. people have to take ownership for their own actions. you know, people have to have common sense. you can't stay in a 120-degree lodge if your body can't take it. obviously some people could take it. some people can't. >> i bet a $9,000 spa vacation for you in arizona where you get locked in a 400-square foot tent and a guy beats down on you. when you try to -- help other people. >> were you there? >> i've read the first-hand reports. >> don't read so many reports. >> he wouldn't let people leave. let me make it up. that's what defense attorneys do. >> that's why we have testimony. >> here's the deal.

he didn't restrain anyone physically. we know that. however, we're talking about people who had emotional issues. these were people who were, perhaps, bored with life. certainly they weren't broke. not at $9,000 nuggets. >> to be tortured and really abused by this guy? >> so they can go to the next level in life, find meaning in their lives and so on. we're talking about people who might be emotionally weak at this point. therefore, when he makes the suggestion as a demigod, sweat it out, you can make it, be tough, be strong, because they are emotionally at risk, they will go with it. it is the perfect storm. >> right. nobody's there to protect these people from their own stupidity? >> there was a nurse who was there and the nurse, even though the nurse deals with the physical, should have been dealing with the psychological, too, and saying wait a minute. these people are not stable and now they're getting delusional from the heat. >> he should be charged with manslaughter from the reckless conduct.

the cause of death of two people. when people wanted to help other people outside of the tent, people who were unable to move, he said, you can't move them, i'll get to that later. if that isn't reckless conduct, i don't know what is. the sheriffs's office has not yet interviewed him which i find alarming. get him with his attorney. find out what his theory was about keeping 60 people in the -- >> get him in and talk to him? there are constitutional rights in this country. he would be the target of that investigation. you can't just get him in and talk to him. >> you can ask his attorney. >> this was a guy who went into hiding. he's supposed to be the leader. the spiritual leader. yet he goes into hiding and puts out a statement and says, i know this doesn't look too good and i should be leading everyone else and i'm not leading by example. this is what i need to do. >> the facts need to be analyzed. >> a demigod -- with clay feet. >> you don't know that. you don't know that. >> here's an interesting point about the thing, when they're in the sweat lodge. they're screaming for water, vomiting and passing out.

sounds like my honeymoon. why didn't they help each other? >> because -- >> why didn't they help each other? >> they tried. >> they weren't exhibiting any common sense. if someone's not helping -- >> they could have walked out. >> joy, there was also a group contagion going on as far as thinking. they drank the kool-aid and they're saying to one another we have to follow each other's group. there's no conscience within the group at that point. they're doing what the voice is telling them to do that lead them. >> some of them were passed out. some of them were actually passed out. >> lisa, we don't disagree. this was dangerous and people didn't learn from jim jones by hooking up this guy, james arthur ray, another pathological individual. >> the guy, james arthur ray, i don't trust anybody with three names. >> i agree with you. >> lee harvey oswald, hello. james earl what's his face? >> james earl ray. maybe part of the same family. >> we have to analyze the facts. >> mary tyler moore.

it just goes on and on. oh, god. thank you very much. coming up, sam wurzelbacher, you may know him better as joe the plumber.

i'm getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000, $270,000, $280,000 a year. your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it? >> if it's a small business, first of all, you get a 50% tax credit. so you get a cut on taxes for your health care -- you actually get a tax cut on that front. >> okay, everyone remembers that moment from the campaign trail

when a new media star was born. he was adopted as an unofficial mascot for the gop. since then he's gone, pardon the expression, rogue. with me now, the man, himself, samuel wurzelbacher, aka, joe the plumber. what should i call you? >> my name is samuel joseph wurzelbacher. i go by my middle name. >> you're not a plumber, are you? >> i really am a plumber. just not licensed in ohio. they had that part correct, mainstream media. i used to teach in the military. i plumbed all over from alaska. >> you plumbed. i love it. these t.e.a. parties going. t-e-a stands for taxed enough already. >> it's gone way beyond that. >> back in april when you guys were t.e.a. partying in wisconsin, right, you were actually protesting george bush's tax laws. not obama's.

did you even know that? >> well, actually, they bring a lot of different speakers on. i'm there to talk about common sense and a good, strong work ethic that is all about being american, democrat or republican. i can't sit there and talk about fond du lac. i was in lansing and then in atlanta with sean hannity. >> i realize you can't speak for every t.e.a. party. that particular t.e.a. party. it struck me because it sounded silly to me because they were mad at obama but it was really about bush. >> that's the point. the t.e.a. party movement isn't against obama. it's against government and how they overstepped their boundaries. >> bush was the one who spent us into oblivion which is why you're in this position. >> it's not just because we're in this profession. there's a lot of reasons why we're in this position. it has to do with the "r" and the "d." they're not truly representing the american people. >> r & d? >> republicans and democrats. >> you're not rich, yourself. according to what i read you made $40,000 in 2006. maybe you're making for money

now since you're a media star. >> no. i believe in capitalism but believe in with a moral compass. there's a lot of things i turned down because it's not something i could sit there and do and look at myself in the mirror or teach my son the right ways of growing up. i'm by far not rich. i'm famous or notorious if you will. but not rich. >> in that clip and other things i've seen, you were arguing people who make over $250,000 a year should not get taxed more than they are already. obama's really saying 36% to 39%. it's a 3% jump. >> it doesn't matter if it's 3% or a half a percent. the bottom line is -- >> why are you worried about people making so much money? what e it what's it to you. you're reverse robin hood. >> it's right and wrong. sooner or later they're going to say $175,000 is too much, $150,000. once you put a number to what rich is, rich is relative. somebody who makes more than i am is rich. >> in new york city, $250,000 is nothing here.

>> exactly. same as in los angeles. i mean, then your small businesses really get the boot to it because, i mean, they're netting $250,000, but you're not talking about all the different taxes that they have to pay, all the different insurances, workman's comp. so much that goes into that. >> the moral compass. did it bother you during the bush administration he gave tax breaks to the rich? >> it bothers me they're working for themselves. i'm not answering your question. it does bother me. i'm a big proponent for the fair tax. fair tax would level the ground. the elitists, politicians, democrats and republicans want nothing to do with it. i mean, the irs, it's a very, what's the word i'm looking for? lot of money gets spent with them. a lot of lobbyists out there -- >> you have to have taxes to keep the roads going, to pay for the police department, the fire department. it's kind of a moral obligation of americans to pay for those services. don't you agree? >> absolutely. some people say taxes are a necessary evil. they're not evil. you have to have taxes.

>> why shouldn't rich, rich people pay those taxes? they make more money. they benefit from the society? >> we need to talk about the fair tax. get that out there. a lot of people like it. it would level the playing ground. create millions of jobs. it would stimulate the economy. >> i've seen you in other interviews where you talk about socialism. you're fearful of socialism. i also read your family was on welfare a couple times. that's socialistic welfare, isn't it? >> i believe in social programs. i'm not a monster. everyone wants to paint me with the gop. to be honest with you, i'm an enemy against the gop, if you will. i'm a registered republican. i registered shortly after reagan. i became 18. >> why do you vote republican if you don't like what they say? >> i was registered as a republican. i vote across party lines. i vote for what's the best interest of america and not necessarily the best interest of my party. the republican party definitely lost their way. >> they have lost their way for sure and many years now. you're not against medicaid, medicare, social security, none of that? >> the fraud, waste and abuse going on in medicare, medicaid

is ridiculous. >> there's always waste in every program. >> sewer, it's the bureaucracy our government has become. they've become too big and unwieldy. we really need to pull things back and get back to the fundamentals of our competition. >> tell that to dick cheney. in an interview you were asked about gay people. this bothered me. i have to tell you. so far i like you but this annoyed me. you said i personally still think it's wrong. homosexuality. people don't understand the dictionary, it's called queer means strange and unusual. it's not like a slur, like you would call a white person a honky or something like that. you said you wouldn't want your children near homosexuals. you are equating pedophiles with homosexuals. it turns out 70% of pedophiles are heterosexuals. >> how do you define that? >> how do you define what? >> you're talking about them being -- hold on. let's back up one second. when i was talking in the interview, i was making a point as my opinion should not necessarily be public policy, just like every politician out

there thinks their opinion needs to be public policy. that was the whole interview. they were asking me questions abstract as far as this goes. when it comes down to homosexuality, how can you sit there and say they're straight? a guy sitting there playing with a 7-year-old boy, how is he straight? >> that's a pedophile if he's abusing a child. >> that's a pedophile if he's abusing a child. not because he's gay or straight. there are pedophiles, this is a fact, pedophiles will go for either girl or boy, whoever's available, because it's power over children. it's not like sex. it's like rape, joe. it's about power. it's not about homosexuality. i don't think it's a choice, do you? >> i don't think it's a choice. >> why would you choose that when people like you vilify them? >> i don't vilify them. if you follow that up on the rest of the interview, i have had friends that are homosexual, two of them have died from aids. i'm not against it but it's not my lifestyle.

i'm allowed to have that opinion and not be chastised for it. i serve my country. >> samuel, you can have your opinion and you're going to get chastised for it just like i have my opinion and i get chastised for it.

joe's with us today. where is joe. is joe here with us today? joe, i thought you were here today. all right. well, you're all joe the plumbers, so all of you stand up and say -- i thank you. >> i'm back with joe the plumber. he's here right now. where were you anyway when he was -- where is joe the plumber? where is he? >> i was in a restaurant eating pancakes. >> in schmuckers? yeah. okay. >> it's a nice little mom and pop stop. great pancakes. >> you also did standup, i

understand. let's look at your -- a little bit of your reteen. >> i did it for charity. >> whatever. >> i really love getting myself foot baths. i pour three of those battles with a pound of safrin in there. deep-tissue massage. i miss it so much. >> okay. that was at the funniest celebrity in washington contest. you're not a celebrity. you're not, you know, a washingtonian. do you think you're funny? >> no. no, actually -- a good friend of mine wrote that for me. the best part of that was i was claiming to be the half brother of karl rove. my name was francis w. rove. my girlfriend missed my golden locks. you know, just playing on the role of joe the plumber and being a rich republican, you know, dim wit if you will. ultimately it was stand up for kids, a charity. >> we'd all make a fool for our children. >> take my 15 minutes of fame and use it for good. >> to you identify with the balloon boy's father at this point? he's getting his 15 minutes of fame.

>> i don't identify it. it's not something i search for. >> you don't search for it? come on, joe. i'm calling you joe but your name is sam. >> it's samuel joseph. >> my name's josephine victoria. you're calling me joy. see how life is? >> for the first 15 years of my life i thought my name was joey go get me that. >> that's a good joke. >> that's the truth. i came on your show because i wanted to talk about t.e.a. parties and let america know it's an american movement, not a gop movement. >> i read those things were set up a lot by these kind of, like, operatives of the republican party. >> absolutely. >> what good is that? that's not coming from the grassroots when it's all organized by all these people with an agenda. >> if you think about it, though, a lot of the stuff on the left is organized. i've been through quite a few rallies where the opposition showed up because union members have been paid to show up to organize and dispute what's being said there. a lot of the gop are going to catch on and try to use the

t.e.a. party movement for their benefit. that's where americans need to stand firm, let them know first of all we're not for the gop, secondly we're for america, third we're not going to take anymore. republicans and democrats. >> is there anything the t.e.a. partyers like about president obama? >> it's not about president obama. >> what he's doing, about what he's doing now. >> that's what it is. it's not about president obama. it's about congress. simple fact republicans and democrats play a lot of he said/she said and do no work. they're on tv more than you are. >> that's impossible. >> it's like "days of our lives" on the hills these days. we need to get back to the fundamentals of the constitution. follow that. >> who do you want to see run in 2012? >> nobody -- >> do you want sarah palin to run? >> i like sarah palin a lot. i met her -- >> do you think she's competent in. >> absolutely competent. >> did you help her write the book?

come on. >> no. >> joe wurzelbacher. did i say it right? >> you did. >> thanks for joining me tonight. >> my pleasure. >> thank you all for watching. good night, everybody.

breaking news tonight. live, colorado. the whole country on pins and needles. a little 6-year-old boy's life hanging in the balance and a beautiful silver space-like balloon soaring through the clouds. police, sheriffs, national guards, volunteers, the faa, even a whole airport and commercial carriers trying to save the life of a 6-year-old boy, whose brothers and parents say is trapped inside that homemade balloon. eyewitness reports something or someone falls thousands of feet to rough terrain near the colorado rocky mountains.

after 60 miles of terror the balloon lands. no boy. was he dead? was he injured? was he lying down a ravine with every bone in his body broken? no. he was hiding in the family attic the whole time, blurting out on national tv it was all, quote, for the show. on not one but two morning shows that same boy so nervous he vomits when asked the question. breaking tonight, a stunning confession blows this case wide open. we learn the mom confesses to police it was a hoax from the get-go. the heenes forcing their little boys to lie on tv and to police, all to make the family famous. more disturbing news about the boys' home environment. video of another attempt of daddy using the boys as fodder

for a reality show. we have the video. in addition to an alleged domestic abuse 911 call to the home, the boys, ages 6, 8, and 10 appear on youtube in a rap song allegedly their dad wrote and taught them, full of filthy language. the title is so vulgar, a smear on women, i will not repeat it on the air. richard heene's ex-wife with us live, taking your calls tonight. looks like bye-bye reality show, hello cell block. >> how long -- is the flying saucer gone as well? >> yes. about 20 minutes i think. >> it's been -- they've both been missing for about 20 minutes? >> yes. >> okay. >> oh, my god. oh, my god, my son. >> did you hear us calling your name at any time? >> mm-hmm. >> you did? >> you did? >> then why didn't you come out?

>> you guys said that we did this for a show. >> i did! >> this is a hoax. >> i'm really sorry i yelled at him. >> it was a publicity stunt. >> absolutely no hoax. >> investigator says mayumi heene came clean on the whole deal. specifically, she said she lied to police. >> i don't know what happened to the tie, but it got loose or something. so it's flying. >> okay. you think he's flying around in the air somewhere? >> yes. >> he's in the air. >> he's in the air? >> yes. he's only 6. ♪ ♪

and breaking news, satsuma, florida. a 5-year-old girl tucked into bed. five hours later she's gone. daddy comes home from the nightshift to find not a trace of little haleigh. the last person to see her alive -- new stepmother misty croslin. croslin flies to new york, taking to the airwaves to declare she's innocent. but even in one brief interview she can't keep her story straight. including a 180 on a failed lie detector, claiming she passed, then admitting on tv she failed. bombshell tonight. according to sources inside the search and investigation, little haleigh is dead. search teams pack up and leave town, convinced haleigh is no longer alive.

tonight, as insiders announce haleigh is dead, croslin goes a-wol, skipping town again. why? >> i pulled into the yard. the front door was wide open. she was standing in it. i asked her what she was doing up. she told me that the back door was wide open and haleigh was gone. >> new developments in the case of missing 5-year-old florida girl, haleigh cummings. a searcher looking for haleigh cummings says he believes haleigh is dead. >> i know i didn't do anything to that little girl. i would never hurt her. they love me. >> the founder of texas equusearch, tim miller, believes haleigh is no longer alive and authorities will be lucky to find her body. miller says his group will no longer search for haleigh as they only search for missing children who could possibly still be found alive. >> ronald cummings, did it ever disturb you that misty croslin's

story actually changed? >> yes, ma'am, it did. >> putnam county authorities continue to work day and night on the case, poring through over 5,000 leads, hoping to find the one tip that could bring haleigh home. >> we would love to have a break in this case, and we really would not care who it implicates. >> misty has been deceptive. that her stories don't make sense. and that the key to this case lies with her. >> in other developments, stepmom/babysitter misty croslin's 911 call has been released. >> some black guy just jumped in my car and stole my whole purse and threw me out the car and he said he had a gun and said he was going to shoot me. >> croslin called cops after being robbed at gunpoint while allegedly trying to buy drugs. >> these highly addictive substances, we've seen people commit crazy crimes against their own family members because the drive of these drugs are so strong. good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. bombshell tonight. a stunning confession blows the case wide open.

we learn mom confesses to police it was all a hoax from the get-go. the balloon hoax. the boy in the balloon. and video surfaces tonight of another attempt of daddy using his own three boys as fodder for a different reality show. tonight we have the video. >> flying saucer. it wasn't supposed to fly. >> okay. >> it's -- we thought we had this thing tethered down. >> okay. >> and my -- i think my 6-year-old boy's -- >> what's wrong? >> he got inside. and it took off. >> he says he was hiding in the attic. and it's because i yelled at him and scared the heck out of him. >> the act was convincing. >> i'm really sorry i yelled at him. >> first there was the tear-filled post-attic news conference, and then to top it off you had the 911 call where

quiet mayumi heene gives quite a performance. >> we are doing experiment. the flying saucer, we made it here. and it's supposed to be tied down, so it's just floating and it's 20 feet up. >> mm-hmm. >> but i don't know what happened to the tie, but it's loose -- it got loose or something so it's flying. >> okay. you think he's flying around in the air somewhere? >> yes. >> then on cnn the story started to crumble. >> you guys said that we did this for a show. >> one of the guys told him it was for some tv show. so that's what he was referring to -- that's what he was referring to when he made that statement.

>> unleash the lawyers. sue moss, new york. peter odom, defense attorney, atlanta. daniel horowitz, famed defense attorney, san francisco. all right, odom, give me your best shot. now the lawyers are saying the husband's saying she has a problem with english? did you hear the rest of that call? not only is her english not fluent but perfect, she even

knows how to inject emotion. this is all a big act. she's crying. she sounds like she's hyperventilating about her little boy that could die any moment. >> ultimately, nancy, if this case ever goes to trial, if they're ever charged with anything, it's going to be a case about mitigation of sentencing -- >> put odom's face up. >> they don't have criminal records. >> why can't you address -- you know, forget it, odom. you had your chance. horowitz, what do you have to say about the lame excuse she can't speak english? >> it's a lame excuse. but it's just one big hoax, nancy. it's the american tradition. it's not -- >> tradition, b.s. okay, sue moss, let's hear it. >> this guy is the joe jackson of colorado. and he's going to be arrested. he's going to be charged with filing a false police report and child endangerment.

hello? >> hi. >> hi, what's going on? >> we are doing experiment of the flying saucer we made here, and it's supposed to be tied down. so it's just floating 20 feet

up. but i don't know what happened to the tie, but it got loose or something. so it's flying. >> okay. you think he's flying around in the air somewhere? >> yes. >> okay. >> so it was an experimental plane? >> yeah. it's a flying saucer. >> it's a flying saucer? >> yeah. >> and that's gone too, right? >> i'm sorry? >> how long -- is the flying saucer gone as well? >> yes. about 20 minutes, i think. >> it's been -- they've both been missing for about 20 minutes? >> yes. >> okay. >> oh, my god. oh, my god, my son. >> and this is the mother who richard heene's colorado lawyer, david lane, says cannot speak english. all right. that is lame.

at least if you're going to come up with a story come up with something i can kind of believe, that i can at least wonder if it's true. we all heard that 911 call. not only is she speaking perfect english, she's also using perfect emotional inflection throughout to display her distress that her son is about to fall thousands of feet through the air to his death. i have right here in my hands the affidavit. let's see the full screen of that, norm. that she signed. mayumi heene signed. where she states, "the hoax was planned approximately two weeks earlier. the flying saucer was specifically made to carry out the hoax." that she and her husband had instructed their children to lie to authorities as well as to the media. there you have it. but let's take a look at video that we have just obtained of another failed attempt by the heenes to use their children to make a reality show, to make some kind of a show for tv. you're seeing it right there.

that is video from tmz.com of the heene boys on a show produced by their father called "box time." and you're going to see the little boy, i believe the youngest one, falcon, jumping in and out of the box. to susan moss. you're the child advocate. what the hay is going on with this bunch? >> oh, this is absolutely awful. i mean, these children are not only being taught how to lie, but they're taught that they need to lie on such a grand scale that it caused one kid to throw up repeatedly on national television. this is just devastating. and there will be penalties for this. >> okay. what is heene saying right there, norm? do we have sound with that? >> would you like me? i don't think so. that's what i'm saying. the boobs fake, i think -- what do you think, fake or real? which is better? i've got a few other things i want to talk about -- >> okay, norm. i don't want to hear the rest. but what i do want to see is the rap video mr. heene apparently, allegedly wrote and produced for his children.

it's been all over youtube. and the title is a slur on women. let's hear the sound, norm. ♪ where are the lyrics? ♪ ♪ we're out in the road ♪ drop our pants ♪ ♪ colorado, dallas, amarillo ♪ south dakota, north dakota, kansas city too ♪ ♪ oklahoma city ♪ wichita, omaha too

>> we're going to show you those lyrics shortly. in another shot in that rap song, peter odom, daniel horowitz, defense attorneys joining us tonight, they actually have one of the children smeared in i assume fake excrement sitting on a commode. and you all know the lyrics by now, i'm sure our producer sent them to you. it's full of filthy language. calling a gay guy a faggot up a tree, using slurs on women, sexual slurs on women. that little boy is 6 years old now, daniel horowitz. i don't know how old he was when he was spewing that kind of filth on youtube. what about it? you've got a child to raise now. a new child. what do you think, horowitz? >> well, nancy, unfortunately, i think it's a sign of our times. this type of conduct is seemingly widespread. and he's not going to lose his children because of it -- >> if that's your best defense, i'm going to give you the commercial break to come up with something else.

>> all right. >> everybody, as we go to break, congratulations to georgia friend of the show homecoming queen miss taylor minton. miss west side 2009. now, coincidentally, it runs in the family. her mother, dana graham minton, was on homecoming court several years ago. congratulations, beautiful taylor.

right now to special guest joining us and taking your calls, richard heene, the balloon boy's father, who apparently orchestrated the entire hoax, ex-wife, patty, is with us. patty, thank you for being with us. i understand that you guys were married, that you brought two children, daughters, into the marriage with you. what was his demeanor during your marriage? why did you guys break up? >> we lived in a house of terror. it was run by terror.

>> what do you mean by that? >> well, like for instance, when he kicked the platform that the balloon was on when it escaped, that's a normal outburst. several times a week. >> so what -- >> he was always yelling and screaming -- >> what effect did that have on your children? >> my kids were terrified. they and i too. we both -- we all were terrified. he abused me a couple times. i had to call the police and file reports.

>> i hate these pajamas. these pajamas always stick to me. >> pajamas are [ bleep ]. ♪ ♪

♪ let me tell you a story about three cool kids ♪ ♪ we do storm chasing with mom and dad, in a tomorrow makes us glad ♪ ♪ we're out in the road ♪ drop our pants, we take a big load ♪ >> texas, colorado, dallas, amarillo, south dakota, north dakota ♪ ♪ ♪ we chase dirt devils, get sand in our pants ♪ ♪ our flies are itching, it's the fire ants ♪ ♪ ♪ my name is ryo, i love big trains ♪

♪ okay. it gets worse after that. and i'm leaving out the part where you have the sex slurs on women. i want to go back to patty, richard heene's ex-wife. you alluded to the fact that you got out of the relationship because your children were in fear. what, if anything, did mr. heene do allegedly that caused your

children to be afraid, your two little girls? >> well, they watched him verbally throw fits and throw things at us. he was like a master of mental warfare. he put us down, hollered at us a lot. he pushed me one time over a couch and then flipped the couch with me and the children on it, threw things at me, and sometimes you know, the things would not hit me but hit them. i filed a police report in lake arrowhead, california. and that was the night he flipped us over the couch and flipped the couch and he left marks on me from throwing things. >> with me is patty. this is heene's ex-wife. giving a little insight to their family life. out to the lines. tamara in texas.

hi, dear. >> caller: hi. >> what's your question? >> caller: first of all, let me tell you, god bless your family. god bless your twins. and they're just adorable. >> and they're almost 2. >> caller: i know it. >> it went by just like that. >> caller: but with this heene family, nancy, shouldn't there be somebody, cpa or some kind of, you know -- these kids are going to need counseling for so, so long. and i cannot believe -- to me the parents need to be throwed under the jail and these kids need to be got out of the environment they're in. and maybe it won't be too late to fix them. >> to dr. janet taylor, psychiatrist and m.d., what about tamara's point? >> well, i mean, clearly they do need some intervention, some psychological evaluations. and my hope is that the kids wouldn't get taken away from the parents but some real strict -- you know, if somebody has to go to jail, they go to jail and you keep this family together and teach them about how to raise their kids from here on. because potentially that could be more destructive if you remove these kids. >> right. out to the lines. ann in iowa. hi, ann. >> caller: hi, nancy.

first of all, prayers for your mom's speedy recovery coming to her from iowa. >> thank you very much. this is a blouse she gave me for my birthday last week. i'll pass that on to her. what's your question, dear? >> caller: i'm a parent and a grandparent, and i don't condone anything that i've watched about this family. my question, though, is do you think that possibly the mom confessed "a" to potentially avoid prosecution but "b" to possibly think it was the only way to get out of an abusive relationship? >> excellent question. sue moss, peter odom, daniel horowitz. there's nothing that says police cannot trick you into a confession. miranda applies when you are in custody. she was not in custody. she was in her own home. so that's not going to apply here. so do you think she did this to avoid prosecution of her, of herself, peter odom? >> it very well could be, nancy. the authorities are no doubt

going to use her confession. they're going to try to get her to cooperate against him. and if he's as abusive as people are talking about, that might just happen. >> okay, guys. i'm hearing in my ear we are going live now to our story on little haleigh cummings. insiders in the investigation and the search now say the little girl is definitely dead. take a listen. >> ronald, do you feel that misty is the key to this investigation? >> no, i don't. i think they're barking up the wrong tree. >> i don't believe you. i think you do suspect your ex-wife, soon to be ex-wife's story -- >> i seen the back door open, and then i go in her room and she's gone. and that's all i know. >> here's the back screen door, the one that was propped open with the cinder block. okay? now, if you see, when it closes, it slams, it makes a loud noise. but if you leave this door, this slowly closes as well. >> this is such a travesty and such a circus that i'm waiting for the acrobats to come in. it's one ridiculous story on top of another. it's all very ludicrous. and what about haleigh?

>> ron marries a woman that is questionable as to losing his child. and his child is missing, maybe being raped and tortured -- >> if this girl keeps doing what she's doing, it's only a question of time before she's charged with something having to do with this kid's disappearance. she just repeatedly -- >> to art harris, investigative journalist at artharris.com, art, people inside the search now saying they're packing up and leaving town. they've left. they say haleigh is dead. why? >> i talked to tim miller a little while ago. he believes that haleigh is dead. not so much for the evidence that he has but for the lack of it. he is the one who set up the polygraph. nothing she has said has helped investigators at all. so many inconsistencies. and nothing solid has led anybody to believe that she is alive. they can't prove she's alive.

they've traced down, tracked down leads, about possible sightings, about one side of the family or the other. >> art, this pronouncement that haleigh is in fact dead is coming from people inside the search and people that have had personal access to misty croslin, the new stepmother. what, if anything, has she revealed that makes them so sure it's over? >> nancy, it's pretty much what she hasn't revealed and what she -- they believe she is hiding. and i've spoken with people in the investigation, and they agree with miller privately. they will not say so publicly. they say they're treating this as if a child is still missing, but they investigate it the same way. >> joining me right now, special guest teresa neves. this is the paternal grandmother who has been front and center since the day haleigh went missing trying to find her, trying to publicize her photo and the tip line, which is 888-277-8477. there is a reward for information. teresa, i know that you disagree with search insiders that say she is dead.

give me your side. >> i absolutely disagree 100%. i believe that god hears prayer. i believe that there have been thousands and thousands of prayers for haleigh. i believe that she's alive. and i do not believe that tim miller is god or has a straight line to god. so until he can produce something else, i don't -- i just refuse to believe that my granddaughter is not alive and with us. >> well, miss neves, if the lord listens to a sinner, i hope he's heard my prayers, because i and so many other people are praying that you are right. we are taking your calls tonight on haleigh cummings. i want to first give you tonight's safety tips. a baby can drown in less than two inches of water. keep your baby safe at bath

time. never leave the child alone. have all your bathing supplies ready at one time. and if you forget something, take the baby with you if you've got to step away. baby bathtubs can help stabilize a wet slippery child so they don't fall. but they should be slip resistant, made of thick plastic and stay firm under the weight of water. stay away from those bath rings and flotation devices and suction seats that don't have restraints. they flip over, and babies can drown, and baby's stuck in the circle. always drain the tub completely when you're through. and know cpr. for more info go to kidshealth.org. xxxxxxxxx

so are you saying that you didn't fail the polygraph like people and law enforcement are kind of claiming that you did? >> no, i did not. >> okay. so bottom line, you don't know where haleigh is? >> bottom line. >> breaking news in the case of missing 5-year-old florida girl haleigh cummings. the head of a search group involved in trying to find haleigh admits he's convinced that haleigh is dead. >> do not lie to me. you've never lied to me before to my knowledge. don't tell me that you didn't

know police want to talk to her again. >> founder of texas equusearch tim miller says his group focuses on children who still have a chance to be alive, and that does not include little haleigh cummings. the family disagrees, maintaining their hope that haleigh is still alive, being held against her will. >> i believe haleigh is alive. i have faith in god to take care of my baby girl and find her. and i don't care who had something to do with it. >> meanwhile, croslin's 911 call released. misty croslin called 911 last week after being robbed while allegedly trying to score drugs. >> oh, my god, my leg and my arm hurt so bad. >> do you need an ambulance? >> yeah, i think so. oh, my god. my purse is ripped. i can't move it. i can't move it. i can't move it. >> you have made an accusation that croslin was on a drug binge. do you have any evidence to support that claim? >> no, i don't. >> then why did you say it? >> it was just a thought. i mean, maybe she was. >> well, my apologies to crystal

sheffield, the ex-wife of ronald cummings, because apparently when the new stepmother, misty croslin, calls 911, her two cohorts with her are saying they're out scoring dope when they get armed robbed. that's a good one. let me go to the lawyers. susan moss, what does she say to cops? come help me, the dope dealer robbed me of my dope and money? >> if you lay down with fleas, you know what they say. this is just absolutely ridiculous. and it really shows what type of person we're dealing with. and the fact that her credibility is absolutely nil. this is just one further step to get her to hopefully, hopefully break because she is the key to tell us where this kid is. >> norm, let's hear that 911 call where she was allegedly scoring dope. >> i need to you stay on the phone with me. okay? >> oh, my god, my leg and my arm hurt so bad. >> do you need an ambulance? >> yeah, i think so.

oh, my god. my purse is ripped. i can't move it. i can't move it. i can't move it. >> okay. stay on the phone with me. okay? >> okay. oh, my god. >> do you know what he was wearing? >> all black. i know where he -- which way he ran. >> what did his gun look like? >> i don't know, he just -- >> you go score some dope right near a crack house, and then you call police crying because mr. dope dealer grabbed your arm during the transaction and you got a bruise. okay. i think that sums it up. let's get back to the issue at hand. to ellie jostad, our chief

editorial producer, what can you tell me about reports of insiders with access to croslin who say this child is dead? >> right, nancy. well, that's tim miller. he's the founder of texas equusearch. he is saying that after being with misty croslin during that polygraph that he set up, after that layered voice analysis, he says that she keeps insisting that haleigh is alive, which makes him think that haleigh is actually dead and they're not going to find her. >> to marlaina schiavo, when she says that on the lie detector, that the child is alive, was that proven to be a lie? >> according to tim and his polygrapher, yes. i mean, they said that it was full of deceit, all of the answers that she was giving. but at the same time, nancy, we have to keep in mind that as much as tim miller doesn't have any evidence that she's still alive, he hasn't really given us much evidence that she is dead. >> absolutely correct. and that is the point made by grandmother teresa neves.

i want to go to ron shindell, former nypd deputy inspector. what, if anything, can police do now? they seem to be at a dead end. >> nancy, they have to keep going out doing standard, good old-fashioned detective work. keep shaking the trees, keep interviewing people, keep following leads even if they don't seem important. you have to get out there. someone knows something. and you have to keep searching at this point and keep the pressure on. >> joining me right now, dr. joshua perper, chief medical examiner broward county, author of "when to call the doctor," renowned in his field. dr. perper, if this child was killed that night, let's say she was not put in a trash dump or anything like that, her body was put out in the elements, which would be the most logical thing to do given the time constraint. could she be identifiable now? would her remains be identifiable? >> considering all the month which pass since her death, most likely now the body show

advanced decomposition changes, which should make identification difficult. although some tissue might be still present for dna identification. but the advanced decomposition is also to make -- is also going to make difficult the determination of the cause of death if the injuries are limited to soft-tissue injuries -- >> you mean like a strangulation or a smothering? >> correct. or even a beating even or even a stabbing if the soft tissue has melted away. >> right. >> only they are injuries of the hard tissue, of the bones, then it would be possible to conclude what really happened to the child. >> back to art harris, investigative journalist at artharris.com, just as this announcement comes out by searchers and those inside the investigation, she leaves town again. why? >> nancy, she is feeling the

heat. she has no place to stay, overstayed her welcome with the two girls who she was on the alleged drug buy with that night. she's taking a bus to nashville to stay with her grandmother. this is haleigh's grandmother who refutes claims the child is dead. we will be back with her. it is national breast cancer awareness month. women's personal health resource fun toed years ago by nurse barbara whose mother fought cancer and found wigs and everything else she needed. women's personal resource helps patients with skin care, scars, turbines, exercise, lounge wear and swimsuits for mastectomy, lumpectomy and surgery patients f. this touches your life, go to

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>> next on "showbiz tonight," fired for sex? developments at the espn sex scandal. bad news for oprah and balloon confessions. the mom spills the beans at the top of the hour. >> lorraine in new jersey. >> caller: one was answered, but i have another one. the one question was i wonder if they have any evidence that they are not wanting to reveal right now and number two, haleigh has turner syndrome. i understand she has to use an

inhaler because she has asthma. she has been gone so long without her inhaler, could she possibly have died from an asthma attack? she is little and can't breathe. or would somebody -- >> let's go to grandma on that. teresa, how often did she have to use that inhaler? could she survive without it? >> yes,ma'am. the inhaler was basically for her to have if she had like the pneumonia symptoms starting. she would have an inhaler. she had two different inhalers. one that she could use before it start and 1 one if it got bad. >> caller: good evening, nancy. you are my idol and i respect everything you do. >> i do not deserve that, but thank you for your compliment.

what is your question, dear? >> caller: when her brother, the girl's brother that came to the home knocking that night, have they learned whether he noticed the backdoor propped open at that time? >> we heard that story he came to the home that night haleigh goes missing and nobody answered the door around a quarter of 10:00. did he notice if the backdoor was open or shut? >> i had not spoken with tommy. >> from my knowledge of his statement he did not go around back. i just got a couple of seconds. in your heart you truly believe haleigh is still alive regardless of what "the insider"s say? >> absolutely. absolutely. >> everyone, let's stop and remember army private first class steven wal berg, just 18. dreamed of enlisting since 7 years old and would carry backpacks. lost his life protecting a colonel in a sniper attack. loved math, physics and mentoring programs.

favorite album is top gun sound track. leaves parents karen and steve, sister leanna and brother jason. american hero. thanks to our guest and especially to you for being with us. see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp eastern. until then, good night, friend. >> i'm a.j. hammer in new york. this is a "showbiz tonight" news break at the top of the hour. steve phillips gets fired for an affair with a young coworker. how come he got fire and david letterman didn't? bad news for oprah winfrey. "showbiz tonight" breaks big news about oprah and her weight loss advice. that is your "showbiz tonight" news break. tv's first most provocative

entertainment news show at the top of the hour.