welcome back to "prime news" on hln. just in, another victim of the accused ohio serial killer identified. her name, nancy cobb. last seen in april but wasn't reported missing until monday when cops started pulling bodies out of a sex offender's home. so far only 4 of the 11 victims have been identified. and there's something going on here. we want to know why are their own family members afraid to go to police? apparently some relatives are reluctant to give police dna and the coroner's office is reassuring them, if they're frig frightened, they can go to their

pastors. it won't go into a database or shared with police. but some family members are speaking up, like those who knew telacia fortson, a mother of three. her aunt was on the nancy grace show. >> when did you learn that your niece is one of sowell's many, many victims? >> today, about -- i guess about 1:00, 1:30. it was very hard, but we got to keep going and we got to constantly pray for other families and, you know, stay strong for the children. she has three small children. >> so sad. joining me now to talk about this, dwayne fortson, the mother of telacia fortson -- excuse me, brother. identified as one of the victims. dwayne, first off, our condolences. must be such a difficult time. i know a memorial is going on right now. >> yes.

>> when was the last -- she was last seen when, dwayne? >> well, we last seen her in june, but we found out last night one of her friends seen her in july. that's the last we heard from her. >> as this was playing out, dwayne, was this something you had feared or were you totally caught off guard when your sister was mentioned and possibly connected with this guy? >> totally caught off guard. my sister had a brain. she was very smart young lady. we never thought this. >> tell us about your sister. a mom, right, three kids? >> yes. >> how was her life going? from what i'm reading and researching, sounds like she was trying to get her life back together. >> she was getting her life back together. she went through rehab, had her -- she was making money for her children and she had just spent a lot of money on her children, spent time with them. like i tell you, she just got caught, i guess, in one of her weak moments. what can we say? everybody has a weak moment, i guess. he caught her in hers.

that's what happened. >> that seems to be what's going on here, dwayne. >> because she was a very strong, very loving individual. she very much was. >> did she live near the area of anthony sowell's home, dwayne? >> well, her baby's father did. >> okay. >> so that's what might have brought her to that area? >> i guess so, because she's 30 something years old. i live with my wife and everything, so she has her own life. so i hear from her every now and then. that's why i never, you know, figured her as being missing, you know, because i very seldom see her anyway, you know. >> let's bring in mike brooks. mike, as we walk through this and the investigation, i'm sure continuing. that's got to be painstaking at this point, mike, because they've got to be continuing to rip apart anthony sowell's home to find out what other evidence. hopefully not but possibly other bodies. >> they had the fire department in there tearing through walls.

they're the best at doing that. tearing through the walls looking for any kind of evidence because they found all these bodies and a skull. but there's still a dozen people missing from that community. and there's a mistrust of what they say the -- the people don't trust the establishment. they don't trust the police. but it's vital that people -- if you have someone in your family that's missing, they need to give a dna sample. i mean i'm sure the reason they don't want to do that is because of their distrust because some of their people, they may be wanted. but, still, if you have nothing to hide, give your dna. it's going to help these families who are missing these people have closure in their life, because there's people out there missing and they don't know where they are. and they could be involved in this case. >> let's go back again to dwayne fortson. his sister identified as one of the victims. dwayne, as we look into this case and find out that this guy committed a brutal crime in 1 9d

89, 15 years, but from what we're gathering, not long after he's let out of prison, he's right back to his criminal ways and worse. how is your family processing that? >> well, that's the cleveland system for you. these criminals, they get -- they go do their crime and the system let them right back out. and like i said, this situation, he wasn't monitored. for the health department to say they've been in the house, for the police to say they went and checked on him because he was a sexual predator, i just can't see it adding up, because i haven't seen nothing in life yet that smell like death. and if you can't decipher death from a roll of sausage, you got another thing coming. and they covering up something for the city of cleveland, the police, judicial system, somebody is covering up something. i don't feel it's right for all these young ladies to lose their life and nobody did nothing, not even investigate it. >> well, dwayne, you pick up on a good point. a lot of people talked about. a lot of people said that smell

was there for three or four years. thanks for taking time. our condolences to you and your family. stay strong. thanks again. >> thank you very much. coming up, missouri woman is accused of cutting in line at walmart. now she's facing up to 15 years. how's that? we'll lay that out.

a woman faces 15 years in prison for cutting in line at a walmart. it sounds harsh, but that's how the case against heather ellis is playing out. prosecutors say she jumped the line at walmart and then that led to an argument. police were called in. they said ellis assaulted them, but she denies that and refused

to sign a plea agreement. >> we tried to resolve this thing early on, and there was no indication of any desire to do so. >> ellis was charged with trespassing, disturbing the peace and two felony counts of assaulting an officer. the case has gotten national attenti attention. joining us professor at syracuse university planning a rally for ellis later this month. boyce, what was your reaction when you first became aware of the story that she's it'sing charges for an incident that stemmed -- not technically cutting in line but stemmed from cutting in line at walmart. what was your first reaction? >> i didn't believe it. i said that's impossible, there's got to be more to it, tell me more about this young lady. my assistant's children, justin and journey, were the ones that brought this to our attention. that's why we call it journey for justice for the kids because they're the heroes in all of this. so i did my research.

once i sort of dug into it, i thought about my own background. my father has been in law enforcement for 30 years. so i have a lot of respect for good police officers. but once i dug deeper, i said, you know, something's wrong here. there seems to be an abuse of authority. if you look at heather ellis's record, there is absolutely nothing in her past that indicates she's capable of this kind of behavior. she was a college student on her way to a medical school. she's the daughter of a pastor. she doesn't have a criminal record at all. so the idea she's facing these sorts of charges over an incident of this magnitude is astonishing. >> we have a statement from the prosecutor in dunklin county. it says, we tried to resolve this thing early on and there is no indication of any desire to do so. you know the family. let me ask you, just being devil's advocate, why won't she sign something and make it go away? >> one of the problems with the justice system, which is why i consider heather's case to be the search for a broader sense

of justice rather than the end of anything -- is that we have lots and lots of people, thousands of people who go to prison every year for crimes they did not comment, primarily because they sign these plea bargains that are offered and the plea bargains are backed by an implicit threat that says if you don't sign this plea bargain, you're going to get a long time in prison. i stand by heather's decision not to sign the plea bargain. the truth is when you sign it, you're waiving your right to the jury trial. you can't sue the police department for false arrest or whatever the case may be. so heather did exactly what any good, conscientious person should do. she said, i didn't do this. i'm not going to sign it. i stand behind her. the idea that the prosecutor feels we could have made it go away if you're willing to admit to something that you didn't feel you did, that's a travesty of justice and should concern us. >> we have a statement from walmart we need to get out of this. walmart says this -- we also did that as well. boyce, somehow the ku klux klan

has become involved now. what is that about? >> well, effectively, the kkk has threatened the family and told them that if you raise too much of a stink, then we're going to respond in a scary way. and what's even more frightening about this -- which says a little bit about kennett, missouri, is that the threats were actually delivered by a police officer in uniform. i don't have any information to my knowledge that says that this officer then went to investigate where the threat came from or went to prosecute the threat as a hate crime, which is actually what it is. so the truth is that this is a very complex case. you know, the people that we've asked to come down for the rally, we've let them know, look, this is not a safe place, especially for people of color. so it's my greatest hope that we can get in there and get out safely while at the same time standing up for justice. but the thing is, this is not a black issue. this is a civil liberties issue that all americans should be concerned about. >> boyce watkins, thank you very much for your time in talking about this. and it looks like no plea deal.

looks like had they might be headed to trial. we'll keep people posted. for more of what matters check out the november issue of "essence" magazine or logon to cnn.com/what matters. coming up, rihanna speaking out about her violent relationship with chris brown, telling abc's "good morning america" why she took him back, then why she decided to leave.

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a safe, clean place to live. all the meals. mental health services. the camaraderie, it is that internal glue. tell him one of his brothers in arms came out looking for him and let him know, yeah, we will be back. they are the best, and they deserve the best. what i do, i love. i love it. well, an emotional rihanna recounting the night she was brutally beaten by ex-boyfriend chris brown. it's rihanna's first interviews since her attack. confiding in abc's "good morning america" that chris brown had no soul in his eyes. she talked about the relationship. a violent obsession, yet she went back to him. >> the more in love we became, the more dangerous we became for each other. equally as dangerous, because it was a bit of an obsession.

>> and rihanna says taking him back was a big mistake. now she wants to send a message to young girls to get out of these abusive relationships. but guess who's appearing on tv right before rihanna's primetime interview tonight. chris brown. so he's going to upstage her? she's opening up for the first time about this terrible ordeal, and he's going to horn in on her message? i think it's just a bad move on that front. we'll see what the experts have to say. let's bring in stacy kaiser, our psychotherapist and also with us jim moret, chief correspondent "inside edition." first get back to what re hanna is talking about falling in love turning into an obsession. how common is that among young people? >> it's very common, but they aren't really falling in love. what she's describing that the rest of us would call would be that intense passion where it makes for great, happy times and also really volatile violent times. >> and young people more susceptible to that, i would

think, just not mature enough to handle those feelings, right? >> i think that's part of it. you get older. you get wiser. you get more jaded and less accepting of that sort of stuff. >> let's listen to more of rihanna talking about what led to this infamous incident, a text message from another girl. let's listen to rihanna again. >> i caught him in a lie. and he wouldn't -- he wouldn't tell the truth. i wouldn't drop it. i wouldn't drop it. i kept saying i couldn't take that he was lying to me. he couldn't take that i wouldn't drop it. >> stays yishg as you listen to that, i mean, for young people, jealousy, a text from somebody else. i mean, how does that turn into this brutal beating? >> yeah, that isn't really what caused it. that's what she thinks caused it. that's really the excuse. what we're looking at is people who have abuse in their history. when they do and they haven't gotten the right kind of

psychological help for it, haven't healed those emotional wounds, the trigger gets set and they go. i think that's what happened. they got explosive. that's why also she talks about sort of seeing that look in his eyes. it's because he really compartmentalized and compartmentalized and went back to that raging childhood experience. >> let's bring in jim moret. rihanna admits they had a volatile relationship. do we know anything about past incidents? blow-ups they had in the past? >> we do from the court documents, that there were i believe two incidents that were not nearly as violent as this, but there were incidents in the past and also, mike, i don't want you to think that this was just a text from somebody and she got jealous. i think that what the allegation was, and what we got from the court records, was i believe it was a text from somebody that he was allegedly seeing, she caught him in a lie. she wouldn't drop it as she said, and then, you know, it simply escalated. it wasn't just a text from a friend. >> from a random friend. well-put. good perspective there.

so stacy, when we talk about this and parents are watching and maybe their child's involved in a relationship, is it more difficult for a young person to realize this is bad, i've got to get out? >> well, you know, i read an interesting statistic the other day. i read that it takes the average woman 11 assaults before she gets out. so what that says to me is young or old, people are staying too long when they're getting beaten up and once it starts, if someone can do it one time, they can do it again. people need to get out immediately. >> 11? why, stacy? >> you know, first of all, there's the whole cycle of violence where after they beat you up, they apologize, they send you flowers, they tell you how amazing you are. that's a big piece. the other piece is women tend to blame themselves. so just like rihanna's saying well, i wouldn't stop relenting. there's lots of people that are persistent and don't get hit. >> we will take calls on this one. c

tonight, what the hell is going on in our country? every time you look up at the tv, there's another mass shooting. wreaking havoc across our nation. why does this keep happening? first, a bloody massacre cripples the heart of texas, killing 13 people as an army psychiatrist allegedly goes berserk. now the very next day, a gunman in florida walks into a high rise building and opens fire on innocent people. the alleged shooter, a former employee who got fired from his job two years ago. why does anyone resort to killing innocent people? what's happening to our see site? have we become a blood-drenched culture that's defined by violence? does violence feed on itself?

are we addicted to violence? the list's a mile long. 12 students gunned down at columbine high school. 32 people killed on the campus of virginia tech. 13 more shot to death at an immigration center in new york. three women mowed down at a fitness center in pittsburgh. the list goes on and on. but why? and what's being done to stop it? you know, if we're not part of the solution, we are part of the problem. so tonight, "issues" goes inside our blood-drenched culture hunting for answers. "issues" starts now. good evening. did you have the same reaction i did? did you look up at the tv, see the second mass shooting in as many days and say to yourself what's happening in america? tonight, here on "issues," we're going to ask the controversial question is america addicted to violence. we are talking about twin horrors. yesterday, in texas, today in florida. first, a muslim military psychiatrist upset about being

deployed to afghanistan allegedly goes on a murderous rampage at ft. hood. he's accused of killing at least 13 people before he is shot and arrested. less than a day later, shots ring out inside an orlando office building. we watch, america watches, as the pandemonium and panic erupt. >> breaking news into the cnn newsroom. want to get you to the pictures right now in orlando, florida. we are getting reports of as many as eight people shot. >> shots reportedly fired at this downtown high rise office building. we're also hearing reports that there are multiple victims now, at least eight, and that the shooter is not in custody. >> multiple fire units out there working on them. we're told by authorities that basically many of those are serious trauma patients. we cannot confirm any deaths at this time. sergeant jones of the orlando police department says she will not do that. we are told that one of them did

have a heart situation. >> they heard from an employee who was actually inside the center as all of this was going on, and this person said that basically we have everyone in one office and we have barricaded ourselves, 20 of us, inside this office with a chest of drawers. this person said we're scared, we're safe right now, but we're scared. literally going floor by floor to clear it. the shooter still at large. >> we are proud to say that our s.w.a.t. team has apprehended the suspect. he was located at his mother's residence. >> way to go in that arrest. one person confirmed dead. police caught alleged shooter jason rodriguez hiding in his mom's house. listen as a reporter asks him why he went back to the office where he had been fired more than two years earlier. >> why did you do it? why did you do it? >> they left me to rot. >> they left you to rot?

you're mad at your employers? >> they left me to rot. >> who left you to rot? >> in both of these cases, the alleged shooters appear to be very bitter men, harboring deep resentments, men who may have been seeking revenge against perceived slights but what allegedly convinced them that a bullet-riddled massacre was the answer to their little problems? could the orlando shooter have been influenced by the shooter from the day before? and what are we going to do about it? let's face it, if we're not part of the solution, then we are part of the problem. so i want to hear from you at home. what is your theory about this trend toward violent gun ramp e rampag rampages? call me. 1-877-jvm-says. 1-877-586-7297. straight out to my fantastic expert panel. don clark, former fbi special agent in charge. wendy murphy, criminal prosecutor and author of "and justice for some." marva hinton, reporter for wbo

radio in orlando and joining me on the phone, ken jacobson, the suspects former boss in a manner of speaking at the orlando architectural and engineering firm, reynolds, smith and hill where the victims were gunned down. ken, first of all, my condolences over this horrific incident. i know this has to be tough for you and the surviving co-workers. what did rodriguez do at your firm, why was he fired in 2007, and what's your reaction to this comment he made, they left me to rot? sir? speak up, sir. >> mr. rodriguez was hired in 2006 as the entry level engineer. we're an engineering firm and we do transportation engineering, and his performance was below the necessary standards and he was counselled by his

supervisors for approximately 11 months, and when his performance did not improve, then we terminated our employment with him in june of 2007, two and a half years ago. >> now, did he seem violent, weird, cuckoo for cocoa puffs to you? >> well, i didn't know him, but in reviewing his file, there's no references in there whatsoever to any type of misconduct or violent nature or anything. it was strictly a performance issue. >> wow. we are learning a lot about this guy and i don't even know if you're aware of all the stuff. he has a violent past. we have just learned. here's what we know so far about the suspect, jason rodriguez. he's 40 years old. he has two kids. he got a divorce in 2006. a year later, he lost his job at that engineering firm, to which he allegedly returned today apparently harboring a deep resentment over having been let go and opening fire on innocent

victims. earlier this year, he filed for bankruptcy. the filing lists his job, get this, a subway restaurant sandwich artist, making $900 a month. let's listen again to what rodriguez said as he was being hauled into the precinct. >> why did you do it? why did you do it? >> they left me to rot. >> they left you to rot? you're mad at your employers? >> no, they left me to rot. >> who left you to rot? >> get this. we're also learning tonight the suspect as i said had a violent past. the orlando sentinel now reporting in the very same month that he was fired, june 2007, rodriguez was picked up by the orange county sheriff's office after they got a report that he was missing and a danger to self and others. he was brought to a hospital, where his mental state was evaluated. at the hospital, he allegedly attacked a nurse's aide, pushing her in the chest to escape. that nurse's reaction to today's

news, wendy murphy, she told reporters oh, my god, that's him. she says after he was fired, he took it a little harder than most people do. >> you think? you know, look, the thing that bothers me the most about this is that this appears to be a new iteration of the twinkie defense. the economy got tough and i didn't get my entitlement so i had to blow up everybody in my old office. i don't have sympathy for this guy and jane, i know you don't like the gun angle, you don't like guns and there may be some mental health test, i don't care. when you want to walk free in my society around other free, you know, human beings and law-abiding human beings, you can't respond to anger by doing anything harmful to anybody, much less shooting a bunch of them. so what i don't like is that there's an attitude of entitlement in this guy and that it is reflective of an apparent epidemic that's growing in this country and i blame our legal

system, because it takes too long to get to justice and we give out meager punishments. why wouldn't anybody feel like they had a right to kill in this country, our legal system deserves the blame. >> tonight here on "issues" we are asking some big questions, because we want to be part of the solution. one question is does violence feed off itself. is there a chain reaction of violence? listen to this. >> you know, it's still a lot of details that we're sorting through right now. it's such a tragedy to occur, especially after the shooting that occurred in texas on yesterday, still a lot of details we need to sort through, but we are proud to say that our s.w.at. team has apprehended the suspect. he was located at his mother's residence and he is in custody. >> i'm hearing him. just one day after 13 people gunned down at ft. hood, this shooter allegedly opens fire at his old office building. you know, my question to don clark is why did this chucklehead, this chock full of

nuts, choose today? two and a half years after he was fired from this company. my question is, could the massacre at ft. hood yesterday have given this alleged gunman the sick idea of oh, i'm boiling with resentment, i'm boiling with anger, i'm having a giant pity party, i feel sorry for myself, whoops, i know what i could do. >> you know, jane, i think you've hit it right on the head. i think these things do feed off of each other, in particular for those weak-minded people who don't know what the heck to do and then something like the thing happens over in ft. hood, texas and it's oh, my god, let me go out and do this. but you know what, jane, i'm going to go back to my generation, you know. guns have just been around and i know some of my friends are going to beat me up about this, but i've been in law enforcement and the military and i'm just tired of these guns. you know, you got guns on the street and everything is solved with them in television and everything and then you get these kids involved with these guns and what do they do? they do drive-bys so they don't even see what they have done and the damage that they've done.

those are the controls. >> i agree with you 100%. from a psychological perspective, i'm not talking gun control. i'm talking psychology. >> neither am i. >> it takes an entire complicated situation and it boils it down to one action. it takes a revenge fantasy in your head and it makes it real. stay right where you are. one person dead, seven more injured. we're going to have more on this orlando shooting in a moment. we are taking your calls on this. we have a reporter who can answer your questions. 1-877-jvm-says. 1-877-586-7297. plus, from one shooting to another. is our nation addicted to violence? we will go inside the mind of the murder suspect in the ft. hood massacre. but first, teror in orlando. a lone gunman shoots up a crowded office just as employees prepare to head out for the weekend. >> one shooting is too many. you got a guy going into a business on a friday where

people are trying to make an honest living and does something like this. it happens. we just got it and you know, it's just one of those things that we got to do everything we can and we need your help because we need to get that guy in kuft gi.

they were working and one of my co-workers came in and said that the building was being surrendered and there was policemen with heavy machine guns and they were surrounding the building and all of a sudden, a lot of cars kept coming up. we saw people being carried out of the building that were injured and bloodied. it was a little scary. >> we're talking about our nation's sick culture of violence, twin mass shootings in

two days. what's the cause of this explosion of violence? my big issue tonight, gunmen, gunman, gun plus man, is that a deadly equation? listen to this. >> police right now looking for that alleged gunman. >> the alleged gunman -- >> just happened to encounter the gunman -- >> since yesterday, we have been able to dig up a lot of information about the accused gunman. >> gunman. it's a term ripped from the headlines. take a look at these mass shootings, all men, all of them taking their rage out on innocent victims, in many cases mass murdering with guns. you know, i once spoke to an expert in bullying who calls the gun the great equalizer. kids who were bullied in the schoolyard sometimes return with a gun to more than level the playing field. and adult men who feel powerless and humiliated can turn to a gun

to give them a feeling of power over others they resent. okay. i want to go right now to alex kataukus, an addiction specialist. she's also a sex specialist. let's face it, a gun is a phallic symbol, alex. what do you make about the fact that it's males primarily committing these kinds of basically revenge fantasies come to life with a squeeze of a trigger? >> well, jane, i think there are a lot of factors. first of all, one of the things we know is that the area of the brain that's responsible for aggression is larger in general in men, so men's natural tendency is towards being aggressive. also, men in our culture are taught to repress their feelings, not talk about it, shoulder their responsibility and handle it on their own, whereas women are taught to feel their feelings, you know, talk to other people, engage with their family and their community. so i think in the case of this guy in orlando, for example, it seems like or feels like he just imploded both on himself and on

other people. >> eric in florida, your question or thought? >> caller: hey, jane, i think you guys have a great point about the whole male problem or whatever with the gun, you know, phallic problems with the gun but i think maybe that it's just too easy to get firearms in the u.s. and when the media plays the stuff over and over and over and over, these guys that have no life at all just sit at home and watch this and think well, god, maybe i can just go out and do this, too. >> well, i want to go to marva, radio reporter, wdbo, atlanta. you're covering this one and covering many other examples of violence. we're talking about this plague of violence and it's hit orlando pretty hard. a lot of the cases we cover are down in florida. what do you make of when you are there first-hand covering this as a human being dealing with a situation this horrific in terms of your reaction to the causes? >> well, i mean, it's just shock, jane. i'm sure that's what a lot of

people feel, even though we see this so much. when it happens in your community, you don't want to believe it, especially after what happened yesterday in ft. hood. and what we have heard about this suspect, you know, usually people say oh, we never expected this type of thing. but we heard from some people and his mother said he was a creepy guy, you know. they didn't think he'd do this but there was something a little off about him. >> i want to talk about addiction to violence. and let me go back to alex. you know, to me, this is my take on all this. we're addicted to violence in america. we're inundated, conditioned to use violence as a solution, and violence is a huge problem because it's progressive. addiction is progressive. it's only going to get worse. have we hit bottom on violence, do we need an intervention of violence intervention in america as a society? >> well, i don't know that we have hit bottom on it by any means, and we probably do need an intervention in society but i think that it really starts with

the children. it starts with how we're raising our children, how we're treating one another in community. we're a very disenfranchised, very isolated group of people and we don't have one another to turn to and i think that's where the intervention starts. it starts very early on and i do think this issue of guns and how they're the not controlled or regulated in any way, shape or form, are creating -- not creating the problem but they're aggravating the problem and allowing it to run rampant in the way that it is. >> we're going to continue this subject, addiction to violence in america. thank you, fantastic panel. 13 innocent people mowed down on a u.s. army base. what fuels all this violence? we're going to walk through the suspect's final hours before the shooting. some amazing information coming out. plus, an office building riddled with bullets just as employees were headed out for the weekend. the second massive shooting in just two days. what's wrong with our blood-drenched culture?

they said the shooter's coming, the shooter's coming. people were falling out of the elevators to get out. >> she's running towards me telling me to get back in, there's gunfire and you could smell the gunfire. >> it was a little unnerving. we started, you know, you think the worst and you're calling your family and the family's calling you and the phones are going crazy. just started hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. >> terrifying moments inside an orlando office building. a gunman opens fire on the eighth floor. one person dead, five others in stable condition. suspect jason rodriguez arrested thankfully. police acted quickly before this

nightmare could claim still more victims. >> this was a model response by the orlando police department and their supporting law enforcement agencies and the orlando fire department. the gunman has been apprehended so the community is safe. that's the important thing to know now. >> oex. phone lines lighting up. larry, tennessee, your question or thought, sir? >> caller: yes. it really bothers me every time we have this incident, we go to blame the gun. it's the gun, it's the gun. our failure is to recognize, identify potential threats, disarm them, give them the appropriate treatment if they need it, put them in a penitentiary where they belong, if necessary, take care of that. i've owned guns my whole life. i'm retired military. i've been around them, i hunt, i brought daughters up, they know how to use them. why is it we want to go back oh, the gun and macho men. i'm sensitive, i'm educated. >> i'll say a couple things.

one, i think you make some good points. i personally am very much against hunting. i think it's unfair. i mean, you know, they've got their four legs, you've got the gun. but aside from that, i don't think guns are the only part of the problem. i think it's a minuscule aspect of the problem but it is a factor we have to consider. as far as i can see, the big issue, wendy murphy, to me, is this addiction to violence. i'll tell you why. both of these guys, in the case of this rodriguez and in the case of the ft. hood army psychiatrist, harbor deep resentments and one thing they say about addicts is they cannot afford resentment. resentment will fester and lead to a slip. an alcoholic will slip by drinking. an addict to violence will slip by having a rampage like this. so it really dovetails with addictive behavior. >> i totally agree with you. i think you coined an important phrase tonight, calling it the bitter man problem. and you know, the word gun woman

doesn't even sound right to me so i think you are on to something there. but you know, here's where i think addiction matters most in terms of why it causes the behavior. you can be addicted to violence in terms of wanting to watch it on television or in movies. doing it is a different level. and here's where i think it comes from, jane. porn. porn and violence are basically one and the same today. not 30 years ago, when porn was just sex. today's porn, mainstream porn, which men watch mostly and women are victimized in mostly, but it breeds violence because what they're doing is getting sexually excited from brutal acts of vicious violence. i mean, i'm talking about knives and objects used in body parts that are supposed to be for pleasure. so -- >> and for love. and for love. >> you're absolutely right. >> i will add something else to that. >> porn is such an addiction. >> yes. it's all about violence, all about hate instead of love and it's all about domination and

these are men who feel humiliated and they're trying to feel powerful. we're going to continue to cover it when we come right back. a double dose of terror.

we're getting reports from one of our own affiliates there, kxav in ft. hood, texas there there has just been a shooting. quite a serious shooting, as a matter of fact. seven people dead, 12 people wounded. >> breaking news out of killeen, texas. ft. hood, there are several reports of multiple deaths and multiple injuries in a shooting spree, a mass shooting at ft. hood, according to a base spokesman. >> we do have breaking news coming to us out of texas in the united states. a shooting at a u.s. army base there. now, we are being told there are multiple deaths and injuries. >> what must the rest of the

world think about america's addiction to violence? yesterday afternoon, the first of two deadly shooting rampages in two consecutive days. the number of dead at ft. hood, 13, including 21-year-old michael pearson, who joined the army just over a year ago. his devastated brother could barely contain himself. >> he's on his way home. there's no way out of, what, 43 people got injured, there's no way, he's already done with the readiness. wasn't in that building. he wasn't -- i told my mom that there's no way he could have been there and there's no way somebody got on base and shot people unless it was one of our own, and then not a half hour after i said that, it was on the news that it was one of our own soldiers. >> that poor guy. so many others like him. one of our own indeed.

according to authorities, the man in the cross-hairs of military investigators is 39-year-old army psychiatrist major nadal malik hasan. hasan, who is not dead but in a coma right now, is also accused of wounding 30 other people. tonight, a picture of the alleged troubled trigger man has begun to emerge. the owner of a 7-11 in ft. hood tells cnn the man seen on surveillance video dressed in traditional arab garb is major hasan. he said hasan came in most mornings to buy coffee and hash browns, including yesterday. now, hasan was also reportedly giving away all his furniture and handing out copies of the koran to neighbors in the hours before the rampage. one neighbor told the associated press that he offered her $60 to clean his apartment after he was quote, deployed on friday. he was about to be deployed to a war zone. according to his mother, afghanistan. his cousin reportedly said deployment was the suspect's quote, worst nightmare. we should not be in the war in the first place, is how a former

co-worker said hasan felt about the fact that the u.s. had troops in the region. according to "the new york post." we will dissect the significance of all these details as we try to square them with tonight's big issue. america's deadly addiction to violence. i want to know what you think. give me a call. 1-877-586-7297. back to my expert panel and joining me, don clark, former special agent in charge of the houston fbi. dr. daniel amon, former army psychiatrist, u.s. army major retired and author of "change your brain, change your life." mike brown, retired lieutenant colonel with the u.s. army and currently director of army war fighter integration at bae systems, a global defense company. and we also have drew peculik, retired air force colonel, who was on lockdown for seven hours yesterday at ft. hood. first, shawn callebs, cnn reporter on the ground.

what is the very latest in the investigation into this suspect? >> i think there has been some significant activity over this afternoon. first, i think authorities are trying to put together a better picture of exactly what major hasan was doing in the hours leading up to the shooting. we now know more about the weapons that were used in this shooting. one was called an fn 5.7 hand gun, it's extremely lethal. it fires bullets referred to as cop killers. it is the favorite of the cartels, a weapon they like to use. also a .357 revolver. don't know if it had a quick load but if you think about the number of people who were killed and injured, certainly he came prepared to do a lot of damage. also, if you back up to about 2:37 in the morning, long before the shooting, a neighbor who shares a common wall with hasan, his apartment complex, heard a great deal of noise, thumping and banging. turned out that is when he was giving the furniture to his neighbor, who he said look, i'm done, i'm deploying, i'm not coming back, so immediately the wheels start turning here, look, is this somebody who planned this long ago, did he have some kind of death wish, did he know he was going out.

then he asked a neighbor to turn on his wireless system so hasan could use his computer, first at 2:37 in the morning, then again at 5:00 in the morning. and he left a message for that neighbor named willie bell, saying thank you for being such a good friend. he also used bell's laptop on occasion. well, authorities quizzed bell for four hours today. they also took bell's computer and bell has told cnn that the authorities wanted to know more than about the wireless system. what about, we simply don't know. then the pictures that we've seen where hasan is walking into a 7-11 to get some coffee, to get some hash browns as well, and then the shooting here. we did talk to a number of first responders here today, jane, who said by the time they reached hasan, he was already unconscious. so that jives with what authorities told us at a newser several hours ago that he is unconscious. we don't know if he's in a sedated medical state or a full-on coma. >> where do we draw the line between a fair discussion of

this suspect and one in which he is being profiled? larry king confronted a former j.a.g. officer who raised the issue of hasan's ethnicity? >> by raising his last name, are you doing speculating of your own? >> i am speculating. that's true. we have limited information right now but we're all speculating. what i'm saying is my speculation seems to fit a lot more in with the reality of this case. >> no. no, it doesn't. >> than anyone else's. >> no, it doesn't. >> why do you say that? >> i just don't think you can say that. i think that's a terrible innuendo. >> that's controversial but based on aggressive reporting in the wake of this shooting, we know more about hasan, he's a devout muslim. new york post says he's of pals assistancian descent. he attended virginia tech. he got a poor review at walter reed army hospital. according to the training director, he had quote, difficulties related to interacting with patients that

required counseling and extra supervision. his cousin said he's wanted out of the military since the 9/11 attacks and he was taunted after 9/11. recently his car was keyed and a religious bumper sticker was torn off by a fellow soldier. he also had applied to a matrimonial seminar but had problems finding a love match according to "the new york post" so let me go to dr. daniel amon, former army psychiatrist. he's conflicted about being deployed, fearing he might have to wage war against his fellow muslims. he's lonely, he can't get a girlfriend, apparently. what do you make of it? >> what we often see in these kinds of events is they're stacked stresses. it's not one thing that causes someone to snap. it's a series of events and plus, you know, a lot of psychiatrists in the military develop what i call compassion fatigue. they're listening to horrific events day after day, over and over again, so he has a pretty

good idea or he's very fearful of what awaits him as he's going to be deployed. take that with the loneliness, with feeling picked on, with being scared that he's going to have to shoot people that he thinks are, you know, not his enemy but his brother, and you have the prescription for disaster and what i do at our clinic, we do brain imaging work, we have seen because we have scanned hundreds of violent criminals, including a number of mass murderers, and there's something off in their brains. you take all of those factors and put them together and it's a perfect storm. >> let me say this. major hasan's second in line supervisor was choosing her words very carefully when commenting on this horrific massacre. let's listen to her. >> this is a tragedy. i mean, there's no two ways about it. you would like to think that things like this don't happen in your backyard, so to speak. however, people sometimes have things going on with them that you don't know about and that they don't share with you and

they make bad choices. if he did this, this is a bad choice. >> lieutenant colonel mike brown, this guy was a psychiatrist who counseled soldiers returning from iraq and afghanistan who were suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. he was mortified about being deployed because he reportedly had concern about waging war against fellow muslims. he apparently had been trying to get out of the army since the 9/11 attacks. my question to you, certainly this is not a justification, we're trying to understand the sickness, if somebody has a religious objection to going to war, should they just be allowed out? >> well, jane, first i want to make sure that they know the soldiers and families of ft. hood, they're in our thoughts and prayers. i'm a soldier and i got to tell you, i think it's something even more basic. he was deficient in his values. i'm very troubled by this incident. i went through and looked at the army values, core values, there's seven of them, which

talk about loyalty and duty and honor and selfless service. and when you look at those values, that's something that as army -- >> but my question is he wanted out and if somebody says i don't want to go there because it's a religiously, this is against my religion, i'm a muslim, i don't want to fight with muslims, should we just let them out? i mean, would that have been a smarter solution given what happened? >> i think his supervisor should have been listening and i'd be surprised if nobody knew that, but then again, i go back to the values of responsibility and honor and he took money, funds, to go through medical school and so he had a responsibility to pay that back. >> you make a very good point. that's why we asked the question. everyone, stay right where you are. we're all over these two mass shootings and we're focusing on the bigger issue. what's causing all this violence? we're also taking your calls. we got thomas stand by, south

carolina. 1-877-jvm-says. 1-877-586-7297.

we want to take every step necessary to ensure that these kinds of instances don't repeat themselves and obviously, it risks sounding ridiculous to say it but take it seriously so it never happens again. >> violence, horrible violence at ft. hood followed by horrible violence in orlando. two mass shootings in two days, leaving us to ask the question tonight here on "issues," is america addicted to violence. we're going to get to all of our

amazing guests and also, thomas in south carolina, your question or thought? >> caller: hello? >> hey, thomas, how you doing? >> caller: i'm doing great this evening. >> what's your question, sir? >> caller: my question is, the military had already been told by this major that he wanted out or he was -- made the statement he was a muslim first and they did no investigation on this man. they did not -- his evals came back low. once again, no one did anything about it. this man was a terrorist right in our own backyard. he showed exactly who he was. >> well, sean callebs, i think our caller raises an excellent point. if he was fomenting about not wanting to go to iraq and he was muslim and he was wearing that outfit that signifies how serious he is about his religious beliefs and fomenting

about this, shouldn't he have been investigated by the u.s. military? >> i hate to differ with the caller but i'm pretty sure that the military investigated this. this is somebody who had gone on at some length about the fact he did not want to be deployed overseas. i think one of your panelists earlier hit the nail on the head. the government spent a great deal of money putting this guy through med school. he has a commitment. he has a requirement just like someone that goes through the military academies, they have a five-year minimum commitment once they graduate. he had to put in his time, he had to pay the government back. if he didn't want to go overseas, he has to show good cause. he can't wait until the last minute as he's supposed to come to the processing center, say i don't want to go now, it's not going to work that way. i guarantee there was a lot of investigation going on. secondly here today, the army secretary as well as other army officials were saying they were not ruling out the fact that this was a terrorist attack. so in that part, i think the caller could be very close to right. that's something they are certainly investigating. the problem is they just aren't

able to talk to the suspect at this hour. >> we have with us tonight, we're very delighted to have with us drew peck, retired air force lieutenant kerncolonel, w was there at ft. hood yesterday, spent seven hours on lockdown. you have been listening to this very patiently. what do you make of this? you think he should have been allowed to leave? you think the military has handled this properly? >> that's hard to say. but i think -- i think he should deserve to serve his time because of what he did. i think he should have -- he needed to pay his time back for all the money he took for going to school. and all the education that he got. he needed to serve his time in the military. >> this has got to be completely just shocking and to a certain degree, demoralizing to the brave men and women who were there thinking they were in a safe place, in a safe city, and the irony, drew, that many of these people had just come back from iraq or afghanistan or were

headed to iraq and afghanistan. they thought they were in a safe place and then boom, they're sort of ambushed by this crazed person who turns out to be one of their own. is this, in your opinion, drew, terrorism? >> to me, it's terrorism. i mean, you know, if somebody from the outside looked to see what happened, whether he's in the military or not, he did a terrorist act. i don't care what religion he's in. what he did was pure terrorism. >> alex, you're the addiction specialist. you're also a sex specialist. what struck me is that he was trying to date and having a hard time. because they say we never dream about politics so while politics may have been his alleged superficial reason for whatever act he allegedly committed, the deeper reason might have had something more to do with loneliness, feeling less than, feeling apart from. >> yes. i mean, this man was highly compartmentalized and perhaps even had some sort of psychotic

break. so he was lonely, again, he was isolated. he was in a bind because he had this obligation to pay back his loans and also, he didn't want to go to this country and kill other muslims. this is the, you know, what we're assuming and so there wasn't a place for him again and especially what's shocking is he was a psychiatrist. that he didn't have the resources to go to somebody and talk about the bind he was in, to talk about the struggles that he had, instead, all of that rage was turned, you know, inside and he exploded and it's really tragic that we don't have more measures for people like this to get the mental health care that they need, to have an outlet to talk about the struggles that they're having, and you know, all of us suffer in the end because of it. >> alex, i have to say that normally i'd agree with that but he's a psychiatrist, as you said. dr. amon, you're a former army psychiatrist. how is it possible? it's like they always say what is it, the cobbler's kids have no shoes.

i forget that old saying. he's a psychiatrist. shouldn't he had the wherewithal to realize i'm in trouble here? >> yeah. of course. >> one would think that, but the question you have to ask yourself is where does he go to get help, because if he goes to other get help? if he goes to other psychiatrists, they are his colleagues. his boss is the person that is rating him. now, that's not an excuse. what he did, i would agree, it's a terrorist act from a der ranged mind that was filled, exploded, if you will, with remarkable stress. but, you know, i was thinking today, it's like, okay, i was an army psychiatrist. where would i go for help and, you know, it's a really hard question for him. he had already gotten bad evaluations and so, if he goes and says i have really horrible thoughts in my head, in his mind, he felt he had no options.

>> wow. it's just really upsetting and as i think about it, i think that we are talking about what we need to talk about to be part of the solution. so we're not just part of the pornography of violence. everyone stay where you are. more on the addiction to violence, next.

officer dunn lee is a trained first responder. it just happened, very fortunately to be very close the the incident scene. her and her partner responded very quickly. just happened to encounter the gunman and she, in an exchange of gunfire, she was wounded, but wounded the shooter four times. again, a really pretty amazing and aggressive performance by this police officer. officer kimberly is 34,

married to a staff sergeant. she has a 3-year-old daughter, a facebook page, a real american hero has been set up in her honor. it has 1400 members. sean, this is the comforting story to come out of this nightmare, is it not? >> yeah. she's tough, there's no question about that. i think everybody is impressed with her. she's a civilian on the base. she has the love and support from everybody on the base. she went and confronted him. shot him four times. she was wounded herself. her family is rushing to be by her side from north carolina. we don't know if they are here yet. without question, she is the real hero in all of this. without her, who knows what could have happened. it's not to minimize what everybody else did, taking care

of the wounded as well as the other first responders. without this civilian police officer, you shudder to think what could have happened. >> we are talking agent america's addiction to violence. it's my theory, as a recovery alcoholic, i know there's certain commonalities to addictive behavior. one is, it's a cycle. you binge, then you feel remorse, then do it again. doctor, do you see a cycle of addictive behavior when it comes to america's relationship with violence? we cover the stories, binge on the details. the remorse, the funerals, the upset. then we forget ant it, the next one comes along and it's worse than the one before. isn't that addictive behavior? >> no question. you have to look at football. what drives me crazy, ultimate fighting. why is that legal?

it's horrible. it's like dog fighting. it's crazy and feeds upon itself. there's a wonderful book called "thrilled to death" written by a friend of mine. it's about how we need more and more and more excitement or stimulation in order to pay attention at all. i think we have to stop that. it starts by being very careful with what you allow your children to watch and the games you allow them to play. i have a 9-year-old patient, his dad was letting him play grand theft auto. i was like oh, my goodness. what is the matter with us that we are not more thoughtful in developing healthy people and healthy brains? >> well, if we are addicted to violence, as i believe we are, we have to realize all addiction is progressive and it only gets worse. let us hope that somehow in the

midst of this horror, we use it as an opportunity to look at this and come up with a solution. you're watching "issues" on hln.

breaking news tonight in the search for a 2-year-old florida girl, caylee. six months of searching cull min nate when her remains are in the area 15 miles from the anthony home confirmed to be little caylee. a utility meter reader stumbles on the skull. the killer duct taping and placing a heart shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little caylee like she's trash.

bombshell tonight. as we go to air, just when we think we have heard it all in the tot mom investigation, another horrific heart wrenching detail surfaces. tonight, we learn, found at the crime scene, along with little caylee's remains, syringes loaded with chloroform, the superpowerful knock out drug. the same found in tot mom's trunk. with it, a gatorade bottle loaded with chloroform. suggesting tot mom cooked up homemade chloroform, carried it in the gatorade bottle, then injecting it into her 2-year-old girl's body, bound with duct tape. don't forget, computer forensics reveal multiple google searches on how to make chloroform. at the same time, freaky

jailhouse photos of tot mom emerge including close up's of a tattoo covering part of her shoulder reading bella vita. she got it just after caylee goes missing. george and cindy go the the bahamas after raking in $20,000 licensing fees for their private photos of little caylee. >>. >> i think i whispered to myself. >> there was an overpowering smell, i admit that. >> i forgive whoever has her. i just want her to come home. i just want my baby back. >> they found an unusually large

concentration of chloroform greater than is seen in humans. >> maybe my daughter ran over something. >> she's not a murderer. >> there's no evidence casey did harm to her child. >> i know in my gut, there's feelings. there's certain things you can feel about your child. you can feel that connection. i still have that feeling, that presence. i know she's alive. my entire life has been taken from me. >> you don't realize what you have done to us and you don't care. >> i'm frustrated and angry. you don't understand. everybody wants me to have answers. i don't have answers. i'm not in control. i don't know what the hell is going on. she's the most important thing in this entire world to me. >> breaking news tonight, live new mexico, emts police, race to a private home after a 911 call

reports a gunshot to the head of a young father of three. shot in his own home. alleged shooter? daddy's 10-year-old little boy, angry over being grounded.

good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. stunning twist tonight in the 2-year-old caylee anthony tot mom investigation. new evidence found at the scene with little caylee's remains. did tot mom cook up homemade chloroform, carrying it in a gatorade bottle, then injecting it into her 2-year-old little girl's body bound with duct tape. >> all we had to do is google

how to make chloroform and we found more than a million websites with instructions. on the first one, page one had a warning about the dangers, calling it extremely dangerous and unpredictable and warning never to allow children to come near chloroform. fbi lab tests show high levels of chloroform in the trunk of casey's car. there's a mysterious stain along with hair. >> if you think of anything that would help, don't be afraid. >> i won't hesitate to let you know. >> being forthcoming are different things. >> as far as anything else at the moment, there's nothing i can give to you now. there really isn't honestly anything i can think of at this moment. >> if you would have told the truth and not lied. >> how come she didn't get the car?

doesn't make sense. >> i trust casey. >> i know my daughter is not leveling with me. >> all i want is caylee home. i want to be there when she comes home. >> straight out to mark williams, anchor reporter on the case from the very, very beginning, joining us from florida. this is a bombshell. in case anybody had any doubts on how little caylee died, now police reveal they found, just a few feet from little caylee's remains, her skeletal remains, syringes loaded with chloroform and a gatorade bottle with chloroform in it as well. tell me about it. what do you know? >>. >> caller: it's part of 21 pages released today dealing with the anthony affair and the bombshell -- >> hold on one second. everybody you are seeing the shot that is we have just gotten

in. these are official homicide investigative shots and you can see at the bottom where they put a ruler up at the bottom of the shot so a jury will be able to tell how big each item is. you are just seeing the lid to the gatorade bottle and one of the syringes loaded with chloroform just revealed. go ahead. >> caller: the fbi lab techs detected traces of chloroform inside the drink bottle as well as the plastic syringe. inside the gatorade drink contained a plastic bag labeled disposable syringe kit. there was a plastic inside the bag, further tests show it had traces of chloroform, testosterone and water. as you documented, in march of

2008 somebody got on their computer and search it. >> i'm sick. i'm just sick. what's so stunning about it. we are showing the photos we just obtained over police investigation. what's stunning about it is many people came up with a scenario, to make themselves feel better about it that she was just trying to knock the little girl out so she could go out and party and put the girl in the trunk. as if that's not bad enough martin williams, but now we find it in syringes. that brings up the specter. it conjures up the theory that she injected chloroform directly into her 2-year-old's body. >> caller: this is the smoking gun that the prosecution needed. they have it. it's been signed, sealed and delivered to them. also, insects, known as the

microscopic flies were found in the trunk of the car. there were paper towels to clean up the stain and all those coffin flies. again, giving experts a smoking gun. the report also says near the skeletal remains insects built a colony showing that bugs seeped into the bones of little caylee anthony. they were placed there in late june or early july of 2008 which blows out another theory saying caylee or casey never put the bones there, somebody else did. >> tell me more about the insects. what did we learn in the documents today. >> this is the first time we got a full look at the report done by the doctor, noted expert out

of indiana. as mark explained, there are two main reports here. one explaning there were coffin flies in the trunk. >> it's a unique term. explain. >> coffin flies come upon something when there is decomposition. that's what they veer toward. they found them on towels in casey anthony's car trunk and found the coffin flies within the remains. they say it shows the coffin flies veered there in june or july. what that shows is that the time of death was shortly after caylee anthony went missing. >> the stap that was in the trunk of my daughters car. we had the windows rolled down, the sunroof open. it gets into your house just like that.

>> we're talking about a 3-year-old little girl. we need to find her. i don't know what your involvement is sweetheart. >> because i don't know where she's at. are you kidding me. >> i know exactly how hard it is that she's giving up her life to protect her child.

my daughter may have mistruths or half truths out there, but she's not a murderer. >> i, as a mom, i know in my gut, there's feelings. there's certain things, you can feel that connection and i still have that feeling. >> what she told me and what i found out was two different things. i don't know casey's reasons for telling me except what she told me. she told me she's protecting caylee and the family. until this day, i still believe she's protecting caylee and the family. >> i wonder how she was protecting caylee when days after she goes missing, she went to the tattoo parlor getting the good life, the beautiful life tattooed on her shoulder. rosy, do we have a shot of that?

written in italian. that will take some explaning. that will take explaning to a jury. there you see it on the left, the good life. right now, i'm not so worried about her tattoos, but the bombshell evidence that just emerged today. the state's theory abtd the use of chloroform to murder caylee has been sub stan chated. syringes found a few feet away from little caylee's remains loaded with chloroform. you are seeing the police photos, a gatorade bottle loaded with chloroform. joining me now is jake deutsche. he's a doctor in new york joining us tonight. doctor, thank you so much for being with us. if the body were left there, abandoned there back in se july,

how could chloroform still be in the syringes all those months lat later? doesn't it evaporate or it was so much the fluid was still there. >> it would normally evaporate. in a closed syringe, it would still be there. it sounds like a substantial amount. it's not something that's there from decomposition. it was intentionally left there. >> dr. deutsche, you brought up a crucial point in my mind for both sides, prosecution and defense. they are going to argue the traces in the trunk were the result of some other type of decomposition, another chemical reaction, cleaning solution. that's what they are going to argue at trial. there's no such argument for the

chloroform found inside form ery sterile syringes and a gatorade bottle. >> drawn up with the intention of injecting it. it was synthesized and drawn up with the purpose of administering it. in administering it for legal purposes. it's not routinely found in syringes and we don't use it routinely in the medical area. it reeks -- >> hold on doctor. you said not commonly used in the medical community. isn't it true in the '70s, it was banned for consumer use? >> right. because of the side effects and how dangerous it is. >> what side effects. >> the toxicity that's found associated with it. using it as an anesthetic is unreliable. >> doctor deutsche, while i still have you, how did ethanol

end up there? >> it's a bigamistry to me. testosterone is a hormone in the body. it's by people abusing steroids for body building or gender reassignment. maybe they should be looking for somebody using steroids. >> wow. >> is there blood on the syringe? are they testing it for dna? there would be evidence there if it's used to inject. >> with me mike brooks x weigh in. >> you listen to doctor deutsche, he's right. there could be blood in that. there could also be fingerprint evidence because it's inside a sealed plastic bag. what we have here is game, set and match.

>> can someone let me -- come on. >> casey, hold on sweetheart. settle down. >> nobody is letting me speak. >> i still believe my daughter. i already answered that question. i'm not answering it again. >> do you have interest in helping us? >> casey has lied to me in the

past. when she lied she's told me the truth. we have always gotten to the bottom of the truth. >> stunning evidence, both horrific and heart wrenching emerges today. over 2,000 pages of files. we learned, not far from little caylee's 2-year-old body, her remains, syringes loaded with the powerful sedative, no longer used for consumer use, chloroform. beside it, a gatorade bottle and a disney bag also loaded with chloroform. out to bounty hunter, joining us from sacramento, california, leonard padilla. leonard, thank you for being with us. are you surprised. this is a completely different mode of death than what we imagined. >> it's a sad day for me. i wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt, she didn't intend

to kill her, she merely wanted to put her to sleep. it went, you know, it went awry. however, as you said earlier, i don't see how anybody can duck all of these things that are now gathered. i have to tell you this, the doctor and mike brooks are telling you something that the fbi, no doubt, has more evidence off that syringe, off that bottle and they are just putting it out when it's necessary. but, at this stage of the game, you know, it's just -- i've had a tough day all day today. i wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. tracie, who defended her, spent ten days with her has been in sad shape all day. i asked, is there something maybe you didn't tell nick savage or something you didn't tell the cops when they were

talking to you? there seems to be something missing there. it's been a very, very tough day in the office because of the revelations that came out today.

a source close to the investigation says there is evidence of traces of chloroform in the car of caylee anthony's mother. police confiscated her computer after her july arrest and found visits to websites with information about chloroform. >> there's something wrong. i smelled my daughters car and it smelled like a dead body.

>> it was an overpowering smell, i'll admit that. >> there was no odor in the car when it was towed. no odor. >> we have forensic evidence. preliminary evidence indicates there's decomposition from a human body. >> maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard. >> maybe my daughter ran over something. >> we learned from over 2,000 pages of file that is a syringe loaded with chloroform and a gatorade bottom, also full of chloroform found feet away from little caylee's skeleton still bound with duct tape. out to a professor at columbia university. thanks for being with us. two questions, number one, if chloroform had been in the syringe for many, many months,

we were talk k to dr. deutsche about this earlier. how quickly would it have evaporated? how much would have to be loaded for it to still be in there six to eight months later. >> i agree. if the syringe is closed, i don't think any of it would evaporate. it would be as if you had it in a closed container. >> okay. and, what do you think of the fact that testosterone was also found in the syringe. is that a by product of some sort of chloroform? >> no, certainly not. the doctor before had it right. he certainly knows more about it than i do. testosterone is a complex molecule. it's not going to arise from chloroform. it can be made in the home with simple chemicals. testosterone is something you have to get from a medical establishment. >> how is chloroform made in the

home processor? >> in a number of ways. it involved simple chemicals. some of the ooez ye ways are using rubbing alcohol and bleach or ethanol and bleach. mix them together and pretty much, one of the things that come out of the reaction is chloroform. >> to pat brown, criminal profiler and author of killing for sport. okay, pat. before now, so many people had wanted to take the softest scenario possible and p that would be that tot mom tried to gas or chloroform her little girl when she wanted to go out to party, bind her and put her in the car trunk, thinking she won't remember anything. that syringe changes everything. >> absolutely. this is a little map there, a, b, c. home, car, death spot with

syringe. she has grandiose thinking. she made up a master plan, leaving evidence on the computer and in the car and leaving the syringe with the body at the sight instead of tossing it out the window. it's a good thing she wasn't bright otherwise we wouldn't have been able to catch her. >> i'm wondering if fingerprints emerge on the syringe. >> there's a good possibility. it was inside a plastic bag inside this sport drink bottle. where does she get the syringe? that could have come from someone using human growth, hgh, human growth hormone. let's look at the witnesses on the list to see if they were involved in that activity. >> that's a good point. let's unleash the lawyers. out of atlanta, former

prosecutor turn ed defense attorney, craig mcheathen. stacy, this really excludes the theory of an accidental overdose, which would have been an aggravated asult, which is death penalty. she has to be, according to the state, injecting it directly into her little girl. >> you are right, nancy. i can't disagree. it shows premeditated murder. it was prepared with the chloroform. there's no two ways about it. but, a door has opened for the defense here, that i see. first, with the testosterone. if i were defending casey, i would send my investigative team out and look at the males involved and see if the syringe came from someone that was

perhaps a body builder and this was a used syringe that they were reusing and the next thing is casey's ex-boyfriend. there was one computer -- >> put her up on the screen. you certainly know how to make lemonade out of lemons. >> that's my job. >> if you can find a silver lining to this bombshell, what about it? >> we have to examine whether or not we can link the evidence to her. we don't know if there are fingerprints or if she has an alibi. we don't know if we can connect her to the evidence. we can argue circumstantial evidence. >> back to jane, legal correspondent in session. jean, what can you tell me about the anthony's taking a luxury cruise the week the judge refused to throw out the murder charge. >> they took a cruise.

they have the right to take a cruise. what's interesting though is something you wear a bathing suit. they did. what was shown were tattoos on cindy, it's one of caylee marie with a heart that's on her stomach and george has a tattoo, both in remembrance of caylee with sun beams coming down. i would like to know when they got the tattoos. i think they are trying to show someone in mourning can get a tattoo to minimize the effect of casey anthony's tattoo. >> jean, i agree with you. if anybody needs a rest, it's these two, after what they have been to. there is the tattoo she's referring to. this is a freaky shot. the state prosecutors requested the shot to show her tattoo. she got it days after she, herself, says her daughter goes missing, she's at a tattoo

parlor. back to the anthonys, no problem getting away from it all. they need a break. what about the $20,000 reports say came from the networks underwriting the trip. >> that's what people are alleging. there may have been some money for photos and video they used for a recent "48 hours" shoot, then they went on the cruise. they are allegations. if they got the money, they can do anything with it. if that's the case, they didn't use it for casey's defense. >> a quick break. i want to remind you, november lung cancer awareness month. it's the number one cancer killer in the world. it kills more women a year than breast cancer. you don't have to smoke to get lung cancer. this saturday, november 7, 8:00 a.m., the run-walk in georgia. for info on this and other

happenings go to lungcanceralliance.com. joangaeta.org. together, we can win the fight against lung cancer. as we go to break, happy birthday to georgia friend barney walker. loves greeting the congregation every sunday. married to sue for 57 years. happy birthday barney. nicole parton. happy birthday dear nicole.

to our producer on the story, break it down for me. what exactly happened? >> august 27, the 10-year-old, now 11-year-old was at home. younger sister, 6 years old. he called 911. he called saying he needed help, doctors, needed the police to come. he admitted he shot his father in the back of the head. >> what do we know about possible motivation? >> the operator asked the little boy. he said he was angry, i lost my head. later, he said he was upset his father punished him and grounded him. >> punished him for what? do we know? >> we don't know.

>> author of "my therapist is making me nuts." dr. hillman what do you make of it. a child this age cannot, under any circumstances in mexico be treated as an adult. what do you make of this? you heard his voice on the 911 call. >> i don't think he fully understood what was going on. there's so many resources here. child and family protection services were called to the house nine times. only one substantiated with the wife. we don't know how it affected the little boy. the other questions i have are how come the three siblings are not living with their mother. most of the time, unless a mother is proved incompetent, the child lives with her. the child protection said guns were security stowed away.

how does a 10-year-old have access to a secured case? i don't think he fully understood the extent of what the damage was going to be. the other concern, the 6-year-old, his sister who was witness to this, how will it impact her, watching the blood spatter. now, she and her other siblings are living with relatives, not the bilogical mom. these are question that is are going to surface. >> you are so right, again. doctor, take a listen. i want you and pat brown to hear the 911 call, again.

okay, to the lawyers, greg and say si. stacy, as a former prosecutor, i don't think the boy understood what he did. >> i'm on the page with you, nancy. i defended many, many juvenile

delinquents charged. i set them down to talk about what happened. they don't have the life experience, the sophistication, the mental capacity and intelligence to understand the acts. their bodies are capable of pulling triggers, but the mind doesn't follow. it's a sad situation. it doesn't fit. >> hold on. hold on. before you go crazy on that, to you, in this jurisdiction, this child cannot get treated as an adult. all right. the max he would ever do is till age 21. what do you know rupa? >> he's 10 years old, just turned 11. he's not charged as an adult. my understanding fwr the police is the maximum he can get is incarceration until he's 21. >> to greg, what's your defense? >> i agree with that. let me add, i would have him

examined by forensic psychiatrist and use that as a basis for my defense. the child didn't appreciate what he did. >> good point. weigh in brooks. >> did his father take him hunting before? he took the gun and put it back in the closet. did he get it from there? did he have access to the guns? these are questions i have and they need to be answered. >> when you hear him on the 911 call, he is getting them there to save his father. he doesn't get he killed his father. everyone, very quickly, cnn heroes. >> hi. i'm mary j. blige. i have the honor of performing at the first cnn heroes, a tribute recognizing every day people who changed the world. i'm dedicating myself to help

women dedicate their full potential in life. now, more than ever, the world needs heroes. i'm thrilled to help cnn introduce one of this away and here? i can't because i know you wouldn't turn your back and leave me. >> nationwide we are neglected. homeless, unacceptable. we're a branch of service. >> army? army. >> so was i. >> so no man left behind. >> my name is roy foster and my mission is to help and empower homeless veterans. if you're going to work for sobriety, you've got to provide. we provide a safe, clean place to live. the calm raud dree, we are outlooking for them and let them know that we'll be back.

they are the best. they deserve the best. what i do, i love.

a. let's take a look at the stories and, more importantly, the people who touched our lives. >> this is shannon lee. >> the parents of shannon learned that not only had she been found but that she was alive. >> this is a miracle. look at this baby. look at the baby. she's absolutely gorgeous. when i think about what could

have happened to this child -- >> ms. carmichael was the first one recovered from the backyard. and she was a ligature strangulation. there was something around her neck. >> your daughter was one of the victims allegedly of anthony sowell. ms. carmichael, would you tell me about your little girl? would you please tell me about her? what was she like growing up? >> she's always been a beautiful person to me, of course. very laugh, very active, very fun loving. outgoing and friendly.

>> social networking sites are allegedly painting a dark portrait of the 15-year-old teen girl accused of murdering elizabeth the teen's suspects profile page lists her hobbies, including cutting and killing people. >> maybe her attorney, her family before they were raised -- i. >> i've got t i've got the twitter and the youtube and, let me tell you, it's sick, weird, and twisted. let's stop and remember army corporal from indiana killed in iraq a paratrooper on ak second tour. he loved sports, baseball, football, e-mailing family back home. leaves behind mom and stepfather and widow and high school sweetheart, molly and 6-year-old little girl madeleine.

cody punnam, american hero. thank you to our guests and a special good night to the new york control room. good night dean, norm, rosy, aka evil. everyone, i'll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp eastern. until then, good night, friend. tonight on the joe behar show, and then funny lady fran dresher shares her unique views on politics and the joys of going organic. and levi johnson and carrie

prejean sex tape and a lot more coming up.

kathy griffin and the new holiday outlook. will she be naughty or nice? what do you think? and jon and kate. these two are like thanksgiving dinner. there's always more room. and ian mckellen. all of this and more starts now.

these a comedian and a self-proclaimed and she has a new album called "sucking it for the holidays." hello, how are you? >> the two red heads, aren't we cute? >> and i love the way you say self-proclaimed hoar. it sounds juicy. >> it's accurate, isn't it? >> it's awesome. >> so where did you get the title "suck it"? >> i tell people to suck it. because i think this is going to be the best quansa ever. this is an opportunity to get away from the kids, put down the

bible, and enjoy some inappropriate material that, by the way, has very little to do with the holidays. it's a way to get a grammy nomination and everyone loves christmas. >> it has a parental advisory on the cover here. >> it should. >> it should, because it's really quite dirty? is that what you are trying to say? >> yes. this is not for the kids. this is for mommy and dd dee time. >> and, also, you're in a skimpy santa outfit again. it seems like you're constantly without your clothes lately. >> yes, i have a banging bikini bob a bod owe alike to show it off as much as possible. >> do you think you look better than valerie bertinelli? >> yes, i think i do. and better than paris hilton. >> how about kristie alley? >> i don't look better than

kristie alley because no matter what she does, i find her fascinating. >> the girl is riff vveting. and she has a new reality show. i love to watch that stuff. >> she absolutely is riveting. and i like when she went on oprah and had the crazy voice. and it take as lot to freak out oprah. so you really have to be nuts and allegedly -- i say that with love. i enjoy how she described a reality show of having a videographer in her house, which is really not how a reality show is done. that's what you want to do with your -- a little bit nutty and you want to follow somebody around with the camcorder. i hope she does have a show and i will watch every moment of it if she does. >> where you're doing something else besides talking about everybody and, you know, running around, your show is great. is there another concept in your rep pra toir? >> other than the soft core --

because i don't think i should go hard core. i thits important that, like you, i comment on things around me, celebrity culture you did more of the political stuff and doi more of the pop culture stuff. but people want to hear you and i say stuff that they want to but shouldn't. >> how much trouble have you gotten into lately? >> well, let's see. i'm sure kristie alley is probably not happy with me after that last segment. oprah is never happy with me, nor is gail. >> how about barbara walters? >> barbara walters can not be happy with me. in fact, my last special which just premiered this week has a story that you were present for when barbara tried in vain to ditch me backstage at "the view." >> the truth of the matter is,

barbara is barbara walter, the living legend and icon. one of the reasons is she never went to the bathroom. all of those years -- seriously. that is her claim to fame. because other people would have to go to the bathroom and they couldn't get the call as fast as she could to watch the dot and every other person that they interviewed. what do you think about that? >> i don't doubt that for a second. because as asecond, she had to work harder and jump higher. although, one of the times i was on "the view" i recall her saying that the women's view was gone. barbara did digress. she went to the bathroom when i was there and she regrets it. >> you followed her in. >> i followed her and knocked on the metal door of the stall. >> and you always seem to put her into your act. i saw another one, which i won't go into -- and the other little tail out of school, something that you heard in the green room

and went on the air with it. >> she never likes my jokes or doesn't get them and therefore i have to make more jokes to her face. >> which is it you don't think she likes them? >> there is nothing that barbara walters doesn't get. she's probably had it with me at this point. i can't resist. she is my brokeback mountain. i can't quit her. >> i can't quit her either. >> you don't have to. >> i know. so the christmas album, why is there no x-rated christmas album really. >> well, no. by the way, this cd is called sucking it for the holidays. really to grab your attention. the cd is much worse than that and i am out to offend a lot of groups. let me just read you some of the titles. one of them is -- it starts with as far as i know, it's a made-up

holiday if it's only 7 years old. and then there is a section about president suze zorman. >> why. >> because you need a nice lesbian running this country. none of the wall street stuff would have happened if there was the segment from the show, and i do try to offend people and make sure that no one gets out unscathed. >> i suggest you try this. it's really fun. people are such. [ bleep ] in hollywood that i went to every person at the party and i

practiced it and said congratulations and every single person besides tina fey said thank you. and she said, for what? and they are such [ bleep ] that you can say, congratulations that they will say, thank you, and walk away. >> that was a true story. i went to a guy named ron myers who is a big movie bigwig and someone went up to know the person and said, by the way, congratulations. i thought it was interesting that the person didn't say what for and it's a common hollywood greeting, you say congratulations but no one says what are you referring to. they just say, thank you. >> you should mover to new york where people say, who are you again? >> what are you talking about? congratulations for what? screw you. you're in my way. >> what who are the biggest jerks in hollywood? >> by the way, did you know that

there's a new show coming on called steven segall? >> he's a police officer now and there's a reality show about it. >> kathy, stay with me. when we come back, a surprise that you don't want to miss.

i decided to stick around

because i liked it so much the first time. >> i'm not the only one to wish you a happy birthday. i have someone on the line for you. >> who is it? >> surprise, surprise. say hello. >> hi, kathy. >> guess who it is? your boyfriend. >> levi? >> yeah. >> levi, i miss you. >> i miss you, too, happy belated birthday. >> i i'm seven years older than you but i think we can make it good. >> people are twittering me asking this question, why don't they get married already these two. >> i think my baby bump is showing and if i even see levi look at another woman, i don't even know what we're going to do when we go ahunting. >> are you usually attracted to older women. >> a little bit but this one really caught my eye. >> what is it about kathy that caught your eye?

>> she's got a really good heart to her. she doesn't mess around. she likes to beat me up a little bit. >> is it because the new album has santa claus between her legs? is that what she's doing? >> there is a naughty portion, levi, i don't want to surprise you. >> levi, say happy birthday because i know you have a busy schedule. >> all right. happy birthday, kathy. hope to see you soon. >> thank you, levi. see you soon. >> a lot more is coming down the pike. believe me z thanks for calling in. okay. so, kathy -- >> was that not one of my most

i've already seen the goods, honey but, yes, of course i would. what's your estimation of the goods? >> i would say that he needs a tomorrow cover it up. it's something to behold. a lot of gay men everywhere are going to be thrilled. >> exactly my point. do you think he realizes that "playgirl is" is not read by women. >> i don't think he cares. he's getting a paycheck and he likes playing along and likes anything that i think is a middle finger to sarah palin and i'm with him on that zun okay. other big news. >> yes. >> oprah could be leaving her new show.

when suze orman introduced to you gail king, let's listen. >> she says, hey, hi, gail, what's going on girlfriend? how you doing girlfriend? gail king and kathy griffin, gail king. so i, you know, thought of all i've talked about, oprah and gail over the years, flashing before me in a tunnel of death and just looked at gail and said, hi, it's so uncomfortable to meet you. >> kathy, how do you handle it when you meet somebody after you've been trashing them mercy fulless? >> usually i'm so excited to see a famous person or meet them, i'm happy to be in the room with them and also i like to be able to observe celebrities. one time whitney houston waved

her finger at me because i was -- you never know what reaction you're going to get and sometimes they like it and sometimes they don't. they will let you know it. >> you're sort of a skrits fren nick on it because you're a trash she and kiss beep. [ bleep ] >> i like to make fun of them when they leave the room because i would prefer to talk about people behind their backs. >> who doesn't? that's the best. i was raised right and i wait until you leave the room. >> i totally agree with that. >> thank you. >> i don't care what people say about me behind my back either. do you? >> just wait until i go to the bathroom. or in barbara walters's case -- >> did you hear that oprah might be moving her show out of chicago? >> wouldn't you, if you had all of that money, and she's oprah

and a lot of things she can't do. i don't know. maybe she wants to do it out of her basement or something. she's made basically an oprah biosphere and soon she won't have to get out of her pjs to rule the world. >> speaking of ted who haggard, either way he's on his knees. you know what i'm saying? >> the gays don't even want to know. >> i know. >> the gays that i know are like, oh, you can keep him. we're going to throw that back with the bath water this time. >> exactly. but he's started a world church out of his basement. but who will be the next oprah, do you think? look, i think that open praz foot steps are made by a lady named tyra banks. i think she's coming down the lane and she's hungry and has the eye of the tyinging ger and

she's got the wings of the tiger. there's nothing that tyrs can't do. >> i don't know that oprah has the maternal thing going on. >> well, she raises models, from romania, poland, all kinds of third-world eastern countries and -- >> it's sort of like angelina joely. >> but more important and more giving. >> but why does the next president have to be african-american? maybe it's rachel ray. >> it could be rachel ray and she can cook and have an em tire. that's key. what about star joins? she could do it. yes. i. >> once again, why does it have to be an african-american woman? >> there you go.

>> i have a problem. i'm not beloved. >> threw go. >> my mother has told me to be likeable. she says, i'm funny and smart but not likeable. that's why we have this big house, mommy. >> comedians don't have to be light. well, here's a twitter question that i like. she says kathy is a beautiful woman. is she going to stop with the plastic surgery? was that from levi? >> no. your mother. it's through somebody in england. >> first of all, i call it having dental work. so, yes, i have been to the dentist a few times for -- >> quickly, what have you done? >> i've done pretty much whatever you can lift and although my bobs are the same and i've done a lot of refreshers. although i haven't done anything

lately. >> okay. you were always funny and thank you for being with me again. >> all right. >> her new album is sucking it for the holidays. that's in stores now and so is her book. okay. enough with the plugging. i'll be back with more in a bit.

>> a little bit of a clutz, huh? >> no, he had two left feet. some freak thing, his mother was an x-ray technician. >> we all remember her from the very funny sitcome, "the nanny." she's the creator of a skin caroline called the fran bran. fran dresher is here. hi, how are you? everything good? >> everything is fabulous. thank you. >> tell us about this -- >> that's my new skin caroline.

exclusive for hln. it's a beautiful extension of my survival of someone that had cancer and i'm nine years well, thank god. it came to my attention that many of the skin care products that we use have carcinogens and since the skin is the largest organ in the body, i take an estrogen patch. so i know what goes on the skin goes into the body. i thought it was available skin care product that they can trust, that the ingredients are not going to be -- >> everything is organic? >> there's organic ingredients, natural ingredients, botanicals in it. there's beautiful smells in the products because of the ingredients in t. which is important. it's eco-friendly, all in this old school glass jars, which is

so wonderful. it's like the cold cream jars that are moms used ait's made in the usa and it's animal friendly. >> which is another thing that you're involved in? >> yes. >> you had uterine cancer, didn't you? >> yes, i did. >> and so, you know, the cancer movement we educate and empower women to know what the whispers are and the tests that are available so they can become better partners with their physicians. we want to transform patients into medical consumers and it's a 21st century and that's where we are head sog that if everyone were diagnosed in stage 1, 95% of the people would survive and the main reason why we lose loved ones to cancer is due to late-stage diagnosis.

and that's changeable and reversible today. right now and -- >> >> i'm very involved in the current administration and also appointed -- how did they act and behave in this case? did they help you? >> i actually got a -- was very strum mental in getting a bill passed that president bush signed into law and it was women's health issues during the last administration and now has carried over into this administration under hoil clinton at the state department. so, you know, poor health is the great equalizer. >> i know. >>. >> thanks, fran, for coming by. we'll try these later. >> yeah. >> i appreciate it. >> same to you. >> when we come back, jon and kate. oh, them again.

the never ending saga of jon and kate and kate sobs in a one-our special. >> this woman has suffered enough with that haircut. i mean -- >> and the rest of america. >> when prince charming left snow white, of course she misses him. she needs a personal assistant. she has eight children.

first of all, people don't know this -- i don't know if you've had children. but your libido is left at birth and -- >> where are you getsing your information. >> i have children. >> maybe her brain is in the placenta. >> any way, i feel bad for her. >> she says that she's still in love with jon. >> do you still love jon? >> a part of me always will. it's hard to be married to someone for ten years and to say, no, i don't love them anymore. it doesn't work really well. i love the memories that we have together. i love the good times. >> ah, the good times. i'm sure she meant the good

times like this. >> white sandals? >> no, i'm saying flip-flops. just let them wear what they want to wear. >> so we lose good shoes and they have nothing to wear? >> this is what i'm saying. stand with me or stand against me. >> i'll talk in here. >> that is riveting tv. that is good stuff. i have five hours to spare. i want to see what happened with those shoes. >> i want to see what happened. he never keeps his balls. >> sorry. >> no, i'm sorry. >> now, don, you're the expert on pop culture. she hasn't slammed john since they split. >> i think it's a combination of those two things. she's mourning the loss of her marriage. it's like a death when you split up with somebody after being with them for so long. and then there's the cynical side of me, of course, she's being pr sauf vee and she's

trying to make sure that she has a career after the marriage has dissolved. >> it's hard to pauses like that. it took that long. it's like david mammoth pauses. oh, my god, they had another baby during that last pause. >> michael jackson got rabbi who is not the ticket here. >> i love him and kosher sex. >> the best way to apologize to your ex-wife and family and children is not in front of a bunch of strangers and perhaps at home and in private. >> this is true. >> you look directly into the camera and say, very true. >> i can't believe kate was the one that -- she has the cutest

baby. >> >> you know what? she's going to be ovulating because she's going to be so cute. >> women are going to have 18 children, some of them. stay tuned for that. any way, let's switch gears. jay leno said that if the nb c-suites told him to, he would return to the tonight show. >> there are 12-year-olds on that network. >> should conan be worried? >> he should be worried because he's been following leno for years. they make a change and move jay in front of them. the same situation he's always been in and we're still talking about jay leno. if they ask me to host the awards, i will do it. >> jay leno is on the tonight show in daylight savings. i would be so pissed they should never have let him stay.

>> jay should be pisse did, too. >> really? >>. >> do you really think he pushed them into this? >> which you and i should be a little annoyed at. >> thanks a lot. >> joe and i are almost the same zaj and letterman numbers have gone up since the sex scandal. how do you like that? there's a 13% increase in the ratings. >> he didn't commit the ultimate sin of ratings. he didn't switch time slots. his viewers stood by him. >> why does anybody care about

letterman's affair? i understand if it's a nurse and doctor and she passes the wrong scalpel and somebody dies. but this is a comedian who is beloved by all. >> what do you mean he's beloved by all? that's kind of a blank statement. >> i love him. >> you love him and conan. you p don't seem to love leno. >> apparently you had some sort of bitter -- >> you love letterman more than i've been in a married relationship forever. >> you're not even married. >> i agree. i'm in relationship like that. >> good for you. >> i have the feeling that i'm

in a relationship just like sitting here right now. >> any way, i think that letterman's numbers went up because people went there for the sex scandal and stayed. >> because people tuned in after the sex scandal and found out that he stole money. he's been funny the whole time. there was no reason to check. they were all lulled to sleep by jay leno saying, do you know what happened today? this is funny. >> and jay leno cannot stand on this show. i will not have it. >> first of all, your guests are allowed to have an opinion. >> i'm going to fire right back.

>> it looks like my mother. >> go right ahead. >> you know, people our age, excuse me, i'm in my 40s and you're over 100 years old. do not combine our ages, okay? what do you think, carolyn or fay zsh who do you think is going to retire first? letterman or leno or conan? what if conan was the firgs one to retire. >> it seems that conan is going to go off the air and do his own thing. >> here's the thing. leno works on the road every weekend and is on the road constantly. he spent not only lives on his comedian money. >> what does doe with his television money? he stores it in the cars. doi noent. >> he's thinking of buying oprah. >> this is so much fun.

>> it's funny. >> stories you won't read in a parenting magazine. it must be funny if it's got afterbirth in it.

>> why do i need to pay? >> do it because you want to.

>> that looks like a retirement movie. joining me is sir ian mckellen. what do i call you? >> ian, please. otherwise, i'll call you ms. behar. >> just joy. >> joy? >> yeah. because ben kingsley, he insists on sir ben kingsley. >> no i would prefer to not be separated out from everybody else. >> yeah, and let's talk about the trouble that we're having passing a gay marriage laws in this country because i know that you are a very articulate spokesperson on the topic.

and i'm well-established in the uk, someone called the civil partnership for gay people. which has all of the rights of marriage and without the name. everyone seems caught up on the name. i don't -- >> you don't care about the word? >> no. gays should be able to get married. we have this civil partnership, which you don't get married, but it's a legal contract, it has all of the rights that you can adopt and your partner can visit you in the hospital and it muddies the field. >> they inherit the money? >> they inherit the money. >> uh-huh. >> and it's only allowed for people who will living with some of the same gender. it's not -- straight couples

cannot have a departure. so it's a it's a absolutely straight but everybody calls it marriage. even the times call it is marriage. >> i could see if you're a heterosexual couple, you have the right to get married. so get married. >> i was attracted to a boy and became a priest. thas what happened to my men. >> first of all, i was attracted to girls and rapidly realized that images -- i like looking at them and it wasn't the women that i was looking at. it was michael anglo. >> and movies as well, i was always looking at them and i began to say, that's a bit odd and north of england, just after the last world war, you thought

you were the only person who had ever felt like this before. >> people didn't talk about it? >> people didn't not only talk about it but put in prison they were put in prison for making love. >> it's not all been like that throughout ancient history. the greeks were -- >> conducted by the christian church and the middle ages were between men. >> is that so? >> yeah. so these altitudes are sort of victorian. >> that's true. but they were naturally running the country. they were not actually running the government. >> so they can do what they want? the elite always seem to do what

they want. i read that you were 49 when you publicly came out. >> well, coming out can be a long journey, particularly for people like me of my generation. i've got an american friend that when he was 14 his mother sat him down and said, i've got something to tell you. she said, what's that, mom? and she said, you're gay. that's a lovely way to discover it. your mother tells you? >> it is. it's wonderful. and what do the kids say? no, i'm not. >> i had to tell my stepmother when i was 49 and she dreaded it and she said, of kourks i've known it all my lifetime.

and on the continent and california that the film industry has a bit of a problem. the young gay people. young gay performers. and i think we just wait until the first successful young actor of either gender who says, honestly, comes out and says that they are gay, becomes overnight the most famous actor in the world and had a fantastic career. at the moment when they say, oh, it's difficult for actors to come out, it's difficult for politicians and priests and it's difficult for everybody because society make it is difficult. >> right. >> get over it really is my zeelg yes. but an actor in the united states, the women like to have the fantasy, or so they tell us any way, that the man, kissing a woman in the scene, that he love it is. so if you know that the guy is gay, you might think he's making a subs institution. >> does that work for you when you question whether he's gay or straight? >> i don't. i don't even like movies like that. >> no, but i think that audiences are a little bit more

sophisticated than that. we know that they are actors. we pretend to be. and get more fan mail from women than i do from men. >> you do? >> yeah. and it's often very people don't work out their sex law laws. they don't need freefts or government to tell them what to do. >> do not listen to the priests on what to do on that topic. >> because the priests don't know anything about it, do they? >> the priests are a repressed group. they can't mary. i don't fault them as much as i do the hierarchy thus not protecting children in the next. i'm -- we're always trying to be clear on that.

i was reading in research that i saw of you that you thought younger guys come on to older guys. is that true? >> i'm very flattered and delighted and delighted when young guys come on to me and want to be with me and talk to me and do all sorts of things with me. each one to his own. i never really fancied older people. there are lads and lasses who do. so, you know -- >> you're special because you're, you know, not only -- you're handsome but you're, you know, talented and smart. you're a good catch. you're a very, you know, a -- what's the word i'm looking for in. >> charismatic. >> charismatic. that's it. thank you. and modest. i love -- i have one twitter question at this point. i have to take a break. when we come back, i want to ask you this. we'll be right back with sir ian.

i don't think i believe all of this. my mother sat me sideways on the potty when i was a toddler so now -- >> oh, grow up, man. >> that was sir ian mckellen in the new amc miniseries "the prisoner." you said part of "the prisoner" is about the nature of government today. you said that. >> yeah. it's a thriller, basically, but it's a thriller with so many twists i couldn't even go into it. it's really a commentary on the way the individual is treated by

government, and, indeed, by corporation, big business. surveillance and all that. >> surveillance and the -- >> it's about a lot of other things as well. very, very stylish. set in a village where people are extremely happy but can't get out. >> can't get out. you play number two. he can get out. number two. he's the boss. >> you don't know the plot. >> i remember the first series. >> yeah. >> it's not that similar? >> it's not that similar, no. it's a bit changed. i can't even comment on that, i'm sorry. not allowed to. >> oh. >> i would give away the plot which would give no point in watching. i'm the guy who seems to be in charge. jim is the guy who arrives and doesn't -- >> he played jesus in that mel gibson movie. >> vim seems to be doing fine. >> really, is that true? >> what happened to jeff

huchbter. remember him? jesus, he was very big. >> he didn't rise again, did he? you recently performed with a full frontal nude scene. those theaters can get very cold, certainly. >> it didn't make much difference. >> in the original shakespearean c concept, was he a nudist in. >>'s a little bit dauddy. the nature of the universe and so on and sees a naked beggar in the storm and sees he's related to him. he knows he's the king but he likes him. he takes his clothes off. >> you think they did that in the old -- >> probably not. >> -- vick? >> oh, the old vick. that's not that old. now, on the whole, kings did take their clothes off but i wasn't allowed to do it on the

dvd in case children saw it at home, because, of course, their parents don't have genitalia. >> no. >> do you think -- >> he told me it's the best play he had ever seen in his entire life. >> let me get to a twitter question before you leave. what were you thinking taking monica lewinsky to the os scars? >> i let her at the os scars. >> she wasn't such an innocent. >> no, i'm not saying she was. she had a very, very bad time. when she was stuck in water gate, waiting for the trial, she couldn't leave, she was in prison. poor child treated badly. i felt sorry for her. >> we hope she can move on now, although i had so many jokes about h her, it's pathetic. >> she's as adorable as you are.

>> i'll be nice. catch him in "the prisoner" on amc, sunday november 15th. good night sh everybody.

breaking news tonight in the search for a 2-year-old florida girl, caylee. six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in the heavily wooded area 15 houses away from the anthony home confirmed to be little caylee. a utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton including a skull covered in light-colored hair. the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth then triple bagging little caylee like she's trash. bombshell tonight.

as we go to air, just when we think we have heard it all in the tot mom investigation, another horrific heart wrenching detail surfaces. tonight, we learn, found at the crime scene, along with little caylee's remains, syringes loaded with chloroform, the superpowerful knockout drug. the same found in tot mom's trunk. with the deadly syringes, a gatorade bottle also loaded with chloroform. the bombshell, suggesting tot mom cooked up homemade chloroform, carried it in the gatorade bottle then injecting it directly into her 2-year-old girl's body, bound with duct tape. don't forget, computer forensics reveal multiple google searches on tot mom's computer on how to make chloroform. at the same time, freaky jailhouse photos of tot mom

emerge including close-ups of a tattoo covering part of her back shoulder, reading "bella vita." italian for the "beautiful life." the kicker? she got it just after caylee goes missing. grandparents george and cindy take off to a luxury cruise to the bahamas after reportedly raking in $20,000 licensing fees for their private photos of little caylee. >> they got all of their information from me, yet at the same time they're twisting stuff. they've already said they're going to pin this on me if they don't find caylee. >> i believe there's something. i smell, i'm like, oh my god. i think i whispered out to myself -- there was an overpowering smell, i admit that. >> i forgive whoever has her. i just want her to come home. i just want my baby back. >> the fbi said it found, quote, an unusually large concentration

of chloroform, far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition in the carpet sample from casey's trunk where investigators found a mysterious stain. >> maybe my daughter ran over something. >> she's not a murderer. there's no evidence casey ever did harm to her child. >> i know in my gut, there's feelings. there's certain things you can feel about your child. you can feel that connection. i still have that feeling, that presence. i know that she's alive. my entire life has been taken from me. >> every single one -- you don't realize what you've done to us and you don't care. >> i'm frustrated and angry. you don't understand. everybody wants me to have answers. i don't have answers. i'm not in control over any of this because i don't know what the hell is going on. mommy loves her very much. she's the most important thing in this entire world to me. and breaking news tonight, live, new mexico, emts, police, race to a private home, albuquerque suburbs after a 911

call reports a gunshot to the head of a young father of three. shot in his own home. alleged shooter? daddy's 10-year-old little boy, angry over being grounded.

good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. stunning twist tonight in the 2-year-old caylee anthony tot mom investigation. new evidence reportedly found at the scene with little caylee's remains. did tot mom cook up homemade chloroform, carrying it in a gatorade bottle then injecting it directly into her 2-year-old little girl's body, bound with duct tape? >> all we had to do is google

how do you make chloroform and we found more than a million websites with instructions. on the first one we found, page one had an explicit warning about chloroform's dangers calling the chemical extremely dangerous and unpredictable and warning never to allow children to come near chloroform. fbi lab tests show high levels of chloroform in the trunk of casey's car. where investigators say caylee's body had been. there was a mysterious stain in the trunk along with caylee's hairs and dirt. >> if you think of anything that would help, don't be afraid. >> i won't hesitate to let you guys know. >> being forth coming and being truthful are two separate things. >> did you all think she was being forthcoming? >> as far as anything else at the moment, there's nothing i can give to you now. there really isn't honestly anything i can think of at this exact moment. >> if you would have told the truth and not lied about everything. >> how come she never had a chance to get the car? doesn't make sense. >> mom -- >> i trust casey.

>> i know my daughter is not leveling with me. i know what she's done in the past. >> all i want is caylee home. i want to be there when she comes home. >> straight out to mark williams, anchor reporter on the case from the very, very beginning, joining us from florida. this is a bombshell. in case anybody had any doubts on how little caylee died, now police reveal they found, just a few feet from little caylee's remains, her skeletal remains, bound with duct tape, syringes loaded with chloroform and a gatorade bottle with chloroform in it as well. tell me about it, mark williams. what do you know? >> it's all, part, nancy, of 21 pages released today dealing with the anthony affair and of course, the bombshell. fbi lab techs determine -- >> hold on one second.

everybody, you are seeing the shots we are just getting in. these are official homicide investigative shots and you can see at the bottom where they put a ruler up at the bottom of each shot so a jury will be able to tell how big each item is. you are just seeing the lid to the gatorade bottle and one of the syringes loaded with chloroform. just revealed. go ahead, mark williams. >> those fbi lab techs detected traces of chloroform inside that sports drink bottle as well as that plastic sir ring which we documented. inside the cool blue gatorade drink contained a plastic bag labeled disposable syringe kit. there was a plastic inside the bag, further tests show the syringe contained chloroform, testostero testosterone, ethanol, and water. as you documented, in march of

2008 somebody got on the anthony computer at home and used the search word chloroform and neck breaking. >> i'm sick. i'm just sick. what's so stunning about this, mark williams, we are showing you the photos we have just obtained over 2,000 pages of police investigation. what's so stunning about it is that many people came up with a scenario, i guess in order to make themselves feel better about it, that she was just trying to knock the little girl out so she could go out and party and would put the girl in the trunk. as if that's not bad enough mark williams, but now that we find chloroform in syringes. in syringes. that brings up the specter. it conjures up the theory that she injected chloroform directly into her 2-year-old girl's body, mark williams. >> nancy, this is the smoking gun that the prosecution needed. they have it. it's been signed, sealed and delivered to them. also, insects, known as the

moirk skopic in size, known as coffin flies, thrive in decomposition. they were found in the trunk of the car. there were paper towels in the trunk of the car to clean up the stain that was there and coffin flies and giving prosecution, experts a smoking gun. the report also says near the skeletal remains insects built a colony showing that bugs seeped into the bones of little caylee anthony. they were placed there in late june or early july of 2008 which blows out another theory saying caylee or casey never put the bones there, that somebody else had put the body there. >> to ellie jo stad, our chief editorial producer on the story, tell us more about the insects, ellie. what did he learn in the documents today? >> this is the first time we got a full look at the report done by dr. neil haskel, noted expert out of indiana.

as mark explained, there are two main reports here. one explaining there were coffin flies in the trunk. >> okay. coffin flies is a unique term. jean casarez, explain. >> coffin flies come upon something when there is decomposition. that's what they veer toward. they found the coffin flies on towels, in casey anthony's car trunk and they found the coffin flies within the remains. they say that shows the coffin flies veered there in joune or july. what that shows to the prosecution is the time of death was shortly after caylee anthony went missing. >> the stain that was in the trunk of my daughter's car -- when i opened up the trunk, we had the windows rolled down, the sunroof open. instantaneo instantaneously, that gets in your house just like that.

every night hln's nancy grace brings you the real drama straight from the courtroom. >> every lawyer has a different version of what they would think justice is. >> tnt mondays, "raising the bar" is all new.

>> to me justice is a jury rendering a verdict that speaks the truth. >> do you trust him? that's what this case comes down to. >> steven bochco's "raising the bar" mondays at 10:00 on tnt. pick up nancy's new book "the eleventh victim" available now wherever books are sold. we have a 3-year-old that's been missing for a minute. >> a 3-year-old? have you reported that? >> i'm trying to do that now, ma'am. >> there's salutely nothing to find out, not even what i told the detectives. >> well, everything you're telling them -- >> if i knew where caylee was do you think any of this would be happening? no. >> we're talking about a 3-year-old little girl. we need to find her. i don't know what your involvement is sweetheart. you're not telling me where she's at. >> because i don't know where she's at. are you kidding me. >> i love her and support her and i know exactly how hard it is that she's giving up her life to protect her child.

my daughter may have mistruths or half truths out there, but she's not a murderer. >> there's no evidence casey has ever done any harm to her child. >> i, as a mom, i know in my gut, there's feelings as a parent, you know certain things about your child. you can feel that connection. and i still have that feeling. >> what she told me and what i found out was two different things. i don't know casey's reasons for telling me except what she told me. she told me she's protecting caylee and she's protecting the family. until this day, i still believe she's protecting caylee and the family. >> i wonder how she was protecting caylee when days after caylee goes missing, according to her, she's slung up at the tattoo parlor getting "the good life," "the beautiful life" tattooed on her back rosie, do we have a shot of that? written in italian. now, that will take some

explaining. let's move that lower banner, please. that will take some explaining to a jury. there you see it on the left, "the good life." you know what? right now, i'm not so worried about her tattoos, i'm more concerned with the bombshell evidence that has just emerged today. the state's theory about the use of chloroform to murder little caylee has now been substantiated. we learn syringes found just a few feet away from little caylee's remains loaded with chloroform, along with this. you are seeing the police investigative photos, a gatorade bottle also loaded with chloroform. joining me right now, special guest, dr. jake deutsche. he's a doctor in new york doctor, thank you so much for being with us. if the body were left there,

abandoned there back in i, say, july, how could chloroform still be in the syringes all those months later? doesn't it evaporate or was there so much chloroform the fluid was still there? >> chloroform would normally evaporate. if you're talking about a closed syringe inside other containers, absolutely it would still be there. it sounds like a substantial amount. that definitely is not something that was there from decomposition. this was something intentionally left there and used for the wrong purposes. >> dr. deutsche, you brought up a crucial point in my mind for both sides, prosecution and defense. the defense is going to argue that traces of chloroform found in tot mom's car trunk were the result of -- >> decomposition. >> right. some other type of decomposition. some other chemical reaction, cleaning solution. that's what they're going to argue at trial. there is no such argument for the chloroform found inside,

formerly, sterile syringes and inside a gatorade bottle. >> that are clearly drawn up with the intention of injecting it. this was something that was synthesized, potentially, and drawn up with the purpose of administering it and administering it for illegal purposes. chloroform is not routinely found in syringes and we don't use it routineny in the medical community. it reeks -- >> hold up, doctor. you said not commonly used in the medical community. isn't it true back in the '70s chloroform was banned for consumer use? >> right. because of the side effects and how dangerous it is. >> what side effects? >> the toxicity that's found associated with it. and the volatile state of it. using it as an anesthetic is unreliable. it was replaced for modern, more reliable medication. >> dr. deutsche, while i still have you, how did testosterone

or ethanol end up in there? >> this is a big mystery to me. testosterone is a hormone that's naturally found in the body but also used by people abusing steroids for body building purposes or people having gender reassignment. maybe they should be looking for somebody using steroids. or has that type of -- >> wow. >> is there blood on the syringe? are they testing it for dna? there would be evidence there if it was used to inject. >> with me right now, mike brooks, former fed with the fbi. weigh in, mike. >> you listen to dr. deutsche and he's absolutely right. there could be some blood in that, but, you know, there could also be fingerprint evidence because it was inside a sealed plastic bag. i think we have here, nancy, is game, set and match.

can someone let me -- come on! >> casey, hold on sweetheart. settle down, babe. >> nobody is letting me speak. >> i still believe my daughter. >> i believe in my daughter. >> i already answered this question. >> you believe she was fabricated. >> i already answered the question. >> do you have any interest in helping us? >> i had interest in helping law enforcement from the beginning. unfortunately, my hands were tied and i was put in a position where someone's trying to -- that's not going to happen. >> casey's lied to me in the

past. when she's lied, she's told me the truth. we have always gotten to the bottom of the truth. >> stunning evidence, both horrific and heart wrenching just emerges today. in over 2,000 pages of homicide investigative files. we learned that not far from little caylee's 2-year-old body, her remains, syringes loaded with the powerful sedative, no longer used for consumer use, chloroform. beside it, a gatorade bottle and a disney bag also loaded with chloroform. out to bounty hunter, joining us from sacramento, california, leonard padilla. leonard, thank you for being with us. are you surprised? this is a completely different mode of death than what we imagined. >> it's a sad day for me. i kept wanting to give her the benefit of the dad that she didn't intend to kill her, that

she merely wanted to put her to sleep and that it went, you know, it went awry. however, as you said earlier, i don't see how anybody can dux all of these things that are now gathered. i have to tell you this, the doctor and mike brooks are telling you something that the fbi, no doubt, has more evidence off that syringe, off that bottle and they're just putting it out when it's necessary, but at this stage of the game, you know, it's just -- i've had a tough day all day today because i just wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. tracie who befriended her, spent those ten days with her, has been really, really in sad shape all day. i even asked tracie, is there something you didn't tell nick savage or something you didn't tell the cops when you were out

here talking with you? you know? there seems to be something missing there. i'm telling you, it's been a very, very tough day in the office because of the revelations that came out today.

a source close to the investigation says there is evidence of traces of chloroform in the car of caylee anthony's mother. police confiscated her computer after her july arrest and found visits to websites with information about chloroform. >> there's something wrong. i found my daughter's car today and it smelled like there was a

dead body in the car. >> it was an overpowering smell, i'll admit that. >> there was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. no odor. >> we have forensic evidence returned to us regarding the vehicle. preliminary evidence indicates there's decomposition from a human body. >> maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard. >> maybe my daughter ran over something. >> air samples don't mean anything. >> tonight we learn from over 2,000 pages of homicide investigative files that a syringe loaded with chloroform and a gatorade bottle, also full of chloroform, found just feet away from little caylee's skeleton, still bound with duct tape. out to trysten lambert, professor at columbia university. professor, thank you for being with us. two quick questions. number one, if chloroform had been in the syringe for many, many months. we were talking to dr. deutsche about this earlier.

how quickly would it have evaporated? how much chloroform would have to be loaded in that syringe for it to still be in there? six, eight months later? >> i agree. if the syringe is closed, i don't think any appreciable amount of it would evaporate. it would be as if you had it in a closed container. >> okay. and what do you think of the fact that testosterone was also found in that syringe? is that a by-product of some sort of chloroform? >> no, certainly not. the doctor before had it absolutely right. he certainly knows more about it than i do. testosterone is a complex molecule. there's no way it's going to arise from anything as simple as chloroform. chloroform can be made in the home with simple chemicals. testosterone is something you have to get from a medical establishment. >> how is chloroform made in the home, professor lambert?

>> it can be made in a number of ways all of which involve very simple chemicals. some of the easiest ways, as your recipes on the internet say, are using things like rubbing alcohol and bleach or ethanol and bleach. you just mix those together and pretty much one of the things that comes out of that reaction is chloroform. >> to pat brown, criminal profiler and author of "killing for sport." okay, pat. before now, so many people had wanted to take the softest scenario possible and that would be that tot mom had tried to gas or chloroform her little girl when she wanted to go out and party, bind her and put her in the car trunk thinking she won't remember anything. this syringe changes everything. >> absolutely. this is a little map there. "a," "b," "c."

home, car, death spot with syringe. she has grandiose thinking. instead of a simple kill, she made up this master plan, leaving evidence on the computer and in the car and leaving the syringe with the body at the site instead of tossing it out the window or something. it's a good thing she wasn't bright otherwise we wouldn't have been able to catch her. and hopefully convict her. >> i'm wondering, mike brooks, if fingerprints are going to emerge on that syringe. >> there's a very good possibility, nancy. you had a syringe inside a plaster bag inside of this sports drink bottle. where does she get the syringe? when you have the test rost roan, that could have come from someone uses hgh, human growth hormone possibly for body growth. let's look at the witnesses on the list that were friends of her to see if they were involved in that activity. >> let's unleash the lawyers. stacey schneider, defense attorney in the new york

jurisdiction. out of atlanta, former prosecutor turned defense attorney, craig mckeithen. all right, stacey, this really excludes the theory of an accidental overdose. which would have been an aggravated assault, anyway, resulting in death which is felony murder which is death penalty qualified. but here there's no way. if you have a syringe full of chloroform, she had to be, according to the state, injecting it directly into her little girl. >> you're right, nancy. i can't disagree. it shows premeditated murder. that syringe was prepared with the chloroform and there's no two ways about it, but a door has opened for the defense here that i see. first, with the testosterone. i would send -- if i were defending casey, i would send my investigative team out and look at the males involved in this case and see if this syringe came from someone, as mike brooks said, who was, perhaps, a

body builder and this was a used syringe they were reusing to commit this act. the next thing i would focus in on is casey's ex-boyfriend. there was one computer -- >> put schneider up on the screen. >> nancy -- >> put her up. you certainly know how to make lemonade out of lemons. >> that's my job. >> if you can find a silver lining to this bombshell for the defense. what about it, mckeithen? >> we have to examine whether or not we can link the evidence to her. we don't know if there are fingerprints that link her to it, we don't know if she has an alibi. we don't know if we can connect her directly or indirectly to this evidence. we can argue circumstantial evidence. that is not enough, alone, to conclude. >> back to jean casarez, legal correspondent for "in session." jean, what can you tell me about the anthony's taking a luxury cruise the week the judge

refused to throw out tot mom's murder charge? >> they took a cruise. they have the right to take a cruise. what's interesting though is something you wear a bathing suit. they did. what was shown were tattoos on cindy, it's one of caylee marie with a heart that's on her stomach and george has a tattoo, both in remembrance of caylee of a girl with sun beams beaming down. i think there's a significance here. i would like to know when they got the tattoos. i think symbolically they're trying to show someone in mourning can get a tattoo to minimize the effect of casey anthony's tattoo that says "bella vita." >> jean casarez, i agree with you. if anybody needs a rest, it's these two, after what they have been to. there is the tattoo she's referring to. this is a freaky shot. the state prosecutors requested the shot to show tot mom's tattoo she got days after she, herself, says her daughter goes missing. she was at a tattoo parlor.

back to the anthonys, no problem getting away from it all. they need a break. what about the $20,000 reports say came from one of the networks underwriting the trip? >> that's what people are alleging. they're alleging there may have been money for photos and video that they used for a recent "48 hours" shoot and then they went on the cruise. those are all allegations. if they got the money, they can do anything with it. if that's the case, they didn't use it for casey's defense. everyone, quick break. i want to remind you, november lung cancer awareness month. the number-one cancer killer in the world. claims more lives than breast, colon, prostate, melanoma, kidney cancer combined. it kills more women a year than breast cancer. you don't have to smoke to get lung cancer. this saturday, november 7th, 8:00 a.m., the run/walk in

alpharetta, georgia. for info on this and other happenings go to lungcanceralliance.com. lungcancerfoundation.org. and the joan gaeta foundation at joangaeta.org. together, we can win the fight against lung cancer. as we go to break, happy birthday to georgia friend, barney walker. loves greeting the congregation every sunday. married to sue for 57 years. happy birthday barney. happy birthday to tennessee friend, investigative reporter, nicole parton. happy birthday, dear nicole.

to rupa mcl mainny, our producer on the story, break it down for me. what exactly happened? >> august 27th, the 10-year-old, now 11-year-old, was at his home. younger sister, 6 years old. he called 911. he called saying he needed help, doctors, needed the police to come. he said his father was asleep. when asked what did he do, he admitted he shot his father in the back of the head. >> what do we know about possible motivation, rupa? >> the operator asked the little boy. he said he was angry, i lost my head. i got angry. later when police interviewed him, we understand he said his upset his father punished him and grounded him. >> punished him for what?

do we know? >> we don't know. >> to mike hillman, author of "my therapist is making me nuts." dr. hillman, what do you make of it? a child this age cannot, under any circumstances in mexico be treated as an adult. he will not be facing life or life without parole. what do you make of this? you heard his voice on the 911 call. >> i don't think he fully understood what was going on. you know, there are so many resources here. child and family protection services were called to the house nine times. only one substantiated with the abuse to the bif. we don't know yet to who extent those abuse charges and how this may have affected the little boy. the other questions i have are how come the three siblings are not living with their mother? most of the time, unless a mother is proved incompetent, the child would reside with her, not the father. the last thing i have, the child

protection said guns were se curlily stowed away. how does a 10-year-old have access to that? in terms of shooting, i don't think he understood the extent of what the damage was going to be to. the other concern, the 6-year-old, his sister who was witness to this, how will it impact her, long term, watching the blood spatter? now, she and her other siblings are living with relatives, not the biological mom. these are question that is are going to surface as the investigation continues. >> dr. hillman, you're so eight, again. doctor, take a listen. i want you and pat brown to hear the 911 call, again.

>> okay. to the lawyers. stacey, as a former prosecutor, i don't think the boy understood what he did. >> i'm on the page with you, nancy. i defended many, many juvenile

delinquents charged with violent felonies and set them down in my office to have a talk about what happened and they don't have the life experience, the sophistication, the mental capacity, the intelligence to understand the acts. their bodies are capable of pulling triggers, but the mind doesn't follow. it's a very sad situation that he's charged with first-degree murder for premeditation. it just doesn't fit. >> well, hold on. hold on. before you go crazy on that, to you, rupa mthen back to mckeithen, in this jurisdiction this child cannot get treated as an adult. all right? the max he would ever do is till age 21. what do you know rupa? >> he's 10 years old, just turned 11. he's not charged as an adult. he is being charged as a juvenile, first-degree murder. high understanding from the police is the maximum he can get is incarceration until he's 21. >> to greg mckeithen, what's

your defense? >> i agree with that, nancy. let me add, i would have him examined by forensic psychiatrist and use that as a basis for my defense. to allege that the child did not appreciate what he did and doesn't understand the difference between right and wrong. >> good point. weigh in, brooks. >> did his father take him hunting before? did he know the effects of the shot gun? he had the withdrawal to put the gun back in his father's gun closet. did he get it there or did he have access to the guns? these are questions i have and they need to be answered. >> when you hear him on the 911 call, he is getting them there to save his father. he doesn't get he killed his father. everyone, very quickly, cnn heroes. >> hi. i'm mary j. blige. i had the honor of performing at the first cnn heroes, an all-star tribute recognizing everyday people who changed the

world. i'm dedicating myself to help women dedicate their full potential in life. now, more than ever, the world needs heroes. i am thrilled to help cnn introduce one of this year's top ten honorees.year's top 10 honorees. >> how can i turn my back and leave you right here. >> you can't. >> i can't because i know you wouldn't turn your back and leave me. >> the veterans are neglected and homeless. unacceptable. >> what branch of service? >> army. >> so was i. no man left behind. >> eye roy fofter and my mission is to help and empower homeless veterans. you have to change. the house provides services for veterans only. all the meals and mental health services. the camaraderie is the internal glue. tell him one of his brothers

looked for him and let him know we will be back. they are the best and deserve the best. what i do, i love. i love it.

>> what a week in america's courtrooms. locka at the people who touched our lives. >> we are the proud papas of a little girl. this is shannon lee dietrich. >> relatives learned not only was she found, but she's alive. . >> this is a miracle. look at this baby. look at the baby. she is absolutely gorgeous.

when i think of what could have happened to this child -- >> miss carmichael was the first one recovered from the back yard. she was a ligature strangulation. >> your daughter was one of the victims allegedly of anthony sowell. would you me about your little girl. what was she like growing up? >> she is always been a beautiful person to me of course. very lively and very active. very fun loving. outgoing. and friendly. >> stunning developments in the

case of elizabeth alton. they are painting a dark portrait of the teen girl accused of murdering elizabeth. the teen girl suspects allegedly lists her hobbies, including cutting and killing people. >> twitter has been erased. they may have erased them. before they were erased. >> i've got it. i got the twitter and the you tube and let me tell you, it's sick, weird, and twisted. >> let's stop and remember cody putnam, 22, lafayette, indiana, killed iraq. a paratrooper on a second tower who loves sports, basketball, football, e-mailing family back home. leaves behind mom and stepdad, larry. brother harry, sisterative any and widow and high school

sweetheart, molly. 6-year-old little girl, madeline. cody putnam, american hero. thanks to you for being with us. a good night from the new york control room. good night genealogy, norm, bret, rosie. see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp eastern. until then, good night, friend. i'm a.j. hammer. here's what's coming up at the top of the hour. in an interview, rihanna gives details of what happened the night chris brown beat her. sandra bullock's husband with a shocking warning to his porn star ex-wife. leave sandra alone.

that's your "showbiz tonight" news break. tv's most provocative entertainment news show starts at the top of the hour.