.

>> the question is that all members that have returned for two or more places in the parts of the united kingdom will make a selection within one week after it appears there's no

question from the return to their place. >> and this is what it looked like november 21st, 1989, the speaker of the house of commons was bernard weatherall. and joining us by telephone today to talk about this 20th anniversary is peter knoll the controller of the bbs parliament tv. what has been the reaction on looking back at this 20 years of being on tv? >> i think that -- that most m.p.'s now regard -- the -- the decision to televise is simply a matter of inevidentibility. very few now look back and think they did something really remarkable but could be overturned. but at the time the -- it was a massive decision. and they had been through so many votes, being turned down

each time until eventually, the decision is taken to go for it. >> now the leadership at the time, what was its position? margaret thatcher was prime minister. >> margaret thatcher was absolutely and determinedly against televising the commons and thought that -- that it would destroy the place. and that it would turn it interest something quite different from that which it had been. the vote -- the vote was taken despite her influence. >> after that, as i recall, there was an 18-month trial period? >> this was a long period after the vote, before -- but nearly two years, before 0 televising actually started. and then when it did start, it was for -- i think 12 months, the trial period and in fact, that is something that -- i'm, in terms of any changes that we, that we ask for that we get now to the way televising or access

to this it done, it comes in by way of a trial period. in every case. to test the water and see whether it can be made to work. since the house of commons wept on television, it has been seen every sunday night on c-span and -- but my question to you is -- e who sees it in great britain? >> there are really two kinds of ordinance. the first one is watched widely and is on pretty much every imaginable tv channel in the u.k. it is on several different channels. it gets a big audience and -- although people criticize it for being too knock about, people also do want to watch it bup the day-to-day business of the -- of the commons and the lords and the scotch parliament and of the committees, that's watched on bbs parliament. there are two audiences for that, the audience at home and

that's very often, it is retired people, watching the daytime. and then the audience in the offices, and that play be people who in the past play have had trouble going to london to westminster. but i should find it useful to tap into it by watching on television or online. >> i should have made that clear. what people see here in the united states is just a very small portion of what you do. >> that's right. primary question is different than the rest. it does give you a flavor of the -- of the competitive nature of parliamentary debate. and the way two sides line up against each other in a kind of face-off. and -- the -- it is different from most of the european parliaments most of which ra are in hemi cycles and a speaker play read a speech. and usually it is a small number of people. the -- the commons is -- is, has very different style to that.

about you're in the -- here in the united states, the house wept on -- went on television before the united states senate. some said at that point in time it was because the house was on television that the senate finally went on television. in your case, the house of lords was already on television. is that correct? >> that's right. the lords had been televised for four or fine years beforehand. and i think the same could be said to apply. i think it just became very difficult for m.p.'s, and the members of parliament and the commons to justify why they could not be seen. >> when the lords didn't have a problem with it. what is interesting, is ever since we had quite a number of changes, to the rules of coverage, making it much easier to watch. than it was at first. in every case the changes to the rules have started like in the lords, and then been adopt bid the com upons. that's still the case for some changes that are under way at the moment. >> how many cameras in the house of commons? >> we have eight cameras in the

common six in the lords. >> how are they mapped? yao they're robotically operated from a central control gallery. and -- what -- what has changed in the 20 years about the way they're operated is that it is now possible to -- to see a much -- see wide shots of the chamber, you see listening shots of people who are taking part in the debate but who are not speaking out that moment. we like to push it further. we like to have the full range of reaction shots, just like a normal inside broadcast but at least it is a long way forward from the original position, which was that you could only see the picture of the person speaking. really head and shoulder shot of them and only that. >> you -- since you covered this all the time, do you have any feel for whether the televising of the house of commons has changed the institution at all or whether it changes any of the debateses? >> i'm full actually slightly doubtful it made a huge

difference. and certainly, m.p.'s who we have interviewed about this 20 years on have tended to deny it has much impact. they simply got used to it though they're on television the whole time. they're just used to the idea of that. some of the trickery that went on right at the start about being on television. and making points of order, justice to get yourself on the television. that's -- that stopped and there was a ridiculous device called doughnutting where people used to cluster around the person speaking, in order to make it look like -- that person was surrounded by their frippeds and supporters and nobody bothers doing that nim. friendlyness, i think everybody got used to it. >> peter knowles who is the controller of the parliament tv joining us from scotland. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> and now we're going to take you back to more of the session, this is the first session of the first day of televising of the british house of commons, november 21st, 1989. you're going to see prime minister margaret thatcher as well as an interview that c-span

cameras did that day with british tv producer, michael cockeral. >> i have always pledged against the televising of the proceedings of this house. i expect i always will. and the speech did nothing to alter my view. despite the -- despite the family -- firmly held opinion which i have on these matters, i received a letter three weeks ago -- i believe that a copy was accept to each of us and possibly even to you, mr. speaker. which made the following preposterous assertion. i quote.

the impression you make on television depends mainly on your image, 55%. and with your voice and body language. and that's accounting for 38%. [laughter] of your impact. only 7% depends on what you were actually saying. i thought i should enlist the sympathy of the opposition with the last proposition. the letter went on -- and you play think that this is an extravagant claim, sfoors myself is concerned, but the letter went on, we could guarantee to improve your appearance. through a personal and

confidential image consult dation. you will learn if you need a new hairstyle. [laughter] and where to get it. and the type of classs to suit your fate. the house will understand. and -- why i consider i was beyond redemption. on all fronts. mr. speaker, east born has been a separate parliamentary constituency since 1895. and then they -- the election was 8,000 and today it is 80,000. i'm glad to be able to report that for 100 out of the 104

years, each one was represented in the conservative interest. >> yeah. the solitary lapse took place in 1906. yah. but four years of liberal representation were more than enough and had the highest turnout, 93.3% of the following gem election. from then on east born has been trow blue and since 1974 dry as well. [laughter]

each subject -- east sussex has long attracted the retired and the semi-retired. hey. my noble friend, he lives with kristen. and the right honorable gentleman, whose decision not to seek re-election to this place which we all demore, that right honorable gentlemen is the squier of kristen. [laughter] and the noble lord, lord callahan has his estate nearby.

it'll be -- it'll be a -- a source of satisfaction to the party opposite particularly to those who sit below the gangway. and that is as it is to me to learn that these three comrades have been able to share in the growing prosperity of the nation. and it is created -- it is created during the premiership of my right honorable friend, the members of finchly. >> yeah. but others -- have said in that prosperity too, in the first years, and 1,657 former sns senates of the castle have bought their houses or flat. >> yeah. and i remember -- therm mr.

speaker, that the right to buy legislation was fiercely opposed by the party opposite. >> yeah. >> and i was -- i was -- i was prudent to have had a hand in extending the opportunities for home ownership in the housing act of 1984. >> yeah. last month phase two of our strict general hospital was opened. all of the medical wards have been transfered from the -- the st. mae's hospital built in the napoleon days to our new hospital. and i am pleased to be able to tell the house that our hospital has informed my right honorable and learned friend the secretary of state for health of its intention to seek approval to become a self-governing hospital

trust. in august of 1980, the house had a third reading to the eastbourne harbour bill, 80 of my right honorable friends stayed up until 10 past 6:00 in the morning to vote for it. >> yeah. >> the house will want to know that construction was on the harbour project is well under way. >> right. >> jobs are being created in the long-term. and the new harbour will keep eastbourne in the vanguard, and now ahead of the vanguard of the increasingly important and increasingly successful british tourist industry. when the harbour is completed, our fishermen will no longer have to drag their craft on to the beach. there will be beths for 1,800

more boats. yeah. and miners from boats and entrepreneurs from new ham northwest and refugees from brent east. [laughter] and growsers from old batchly. and intellectuals and real or imagined from cheshire. [laughter] and the honorable gentlemen, the honorable baron es and the baron net, and the members were at northwest, who is reported -- aspirations to become the queen's first minister, i'm unable to endorse. all of these. all of these. and many more besides. we'll be able to more their boat or seek refuge from the storm in the new eastbourne harbour.

now i must leave. there's absolutely no way in which i would give way to the member of the liberal party. >> no. >> no. >> order. order. now i must leave the virtues of these and turn to the merits of the speech. >> and i welcome the commitment to support the remarkable changes taking place in eastern europe. and speaking in poland last month, the german chancellor said that moscow and warsaw and prague and budapest and vina, he made no mention of lip-sync.

[laughter] and that was as marge a -- as much a part of europe as london and brussels and paris or berlin. dr. coal was echoing deville's famous content of a europe perching from the atlantic to the euro. it is a concept which i share. i am strongly in favor of the free movement of people, goods and capital, within the 12 countries which make up the community. and but i have no confidence in the presumed superior wisdom of the commission in brussels. and that's as compared with the judgment fallible as it is of this elected house of commons. >> yeah. >> recent events in eastern europe have reinforced that view. and if we look forward to the day as i do, when the whole of the european family can share in that freedom and democracy which

we enjoy, then the long-term enlargement of the community is more likely to come about if the nation states of the 12 do not succumb to the ambitions of the supernaturalists. and mr. speaker, i also welcome the commitment in the spreach to defeat terrorism in northern ireland. here here. in great britain and europe. we ought to send a message from this place to friend and foe alike, that our resolve will never weaken, that those who choose the bullets and the bombs will gain no concessions from her imagine city's government. and that there exin -- their campaign of terror is as odious as it is futile. and terrorism flourishes, where those who perpetrate it, believe that one day terror will triumph. that's why we need order to give -- but it never will.

mr. speaker, the speech reaffirms the government's commitment to pursue firm financial qualities, designed to reduce inflation. it is a matter of deep regret to me that inflation is now more than 7%. and high interest rates, and they're not the only weapon to dephoto inflation but they are an essential weapon. >> vulgar. >> vulgar. >> i hope the abatement of inflation until the -- it is secure and makes stable prices will characterize the stewardship of my right honorable friends. mr. speaker, yesterday, the president of romania made a speech in bucharest which lasted for six hours. and which was punctuated by six or seven standing. >> order. >> order. >> it is order. >> customary to give a fair

hearing. >> yeah. >> and yesterday the president of romania made a speech in bucharest which lasted for six hours and which was punk waitsed by 67 standing. i was not asked to move a vote of thanks to him but it has been -- but it has been an honor to have been asked to make this speech. it will be a matter of relief to the house. to know there's no precedent for the person who was with the address being asked to do son 00 -- on a subsubsequent occasion. >> mr. david samba. >> and you're watching live coverage of the british house of commons on c-span, as the house of representatives has gone into recess for the -- for the pending -- pending the call of the chair. we're able to bring you this on the main network, c-span. we know at any point in time the

house play come back into session and we'll leave our live coverage of the british house of cove commons for that. until then we wanted to talk about what our viewers are seeing before some of the main speakers get up to speak and we're very pleased to have with us in our studio michael cockeral who used to be the chief political reporter for panorama and now an author and television producer. what is your reaction? >> i think it is fantastic. television in britain has been going for 50 years and for the first time television is now in the house of commons. it started off as it it were gilbert and sullivan. a guy in a long wig and talking almost in latin. it was -- you couldn't really believe that 600 grown men could be doing this sort of thing. then we have just seen this speech by ian gow, which actually was a very good knock about speech. many jokes would be difficult immediately to understand for an american audience but some of them would have come over like the joke about charles and here was a man who began by saying he

hated the idea of television in the house and he had been circulated by these image builders saying that how you come over on television depends 50% on what you look like and your body language and 78 mrs on what yow say. yet here was a chap that showed that the televising would be a great success. this was dispersed because he came over so well and he slowed that -- television will actually be able to capture the drama of the great events. >> i remember when the senate went on television when john glenn went to the floor and brought out his brush and talked about u ho members will have to wear their red ties. well red ties occur for all members of the house of commons here to look better on television? >> there was always an idea that you looked better on television if you wear a blue shirt. when the german parliament was televised for the first time it had said that in the paper the day pf and every single one of the 500 german members came in

wearing blue shirts but you could see there, they're actually wearing a different colored clothes. and -- i think they weren't all look like american anchormen. >> the gentlemen, we could look now, who is on the floor giving a speech is mr. sumburg what could you tell us about him. >> he's a labor m.p. and he's responding to -- what we had this morning which is -- the queen came and opened parliament this morning and traditional my, immediately after the queen makes the speech, m.p.'s from both sides conservative m.p. in gow and sumburg the labor m.p., make a speech saying how, how, grateful they were. it is the vote of thanks that -- that the loyal traci and it shows you know, the queen has come to her parliament and say the members are pleased to -- to welcome the sovereign to

parliament. >> speaker of the house has already risen and just this first 15 or 20 minutes of the house of commons to call for order. is that unusual for the speaker to call for order? >> it is not unusual. it would have been unusual if -- if he hadn't risen within 15 minutes. remember, this is an event, the house of commons is now absolutely packed to the rafters, and there are 650 m.p. at least and there aren't 650 seats in the house of commons and they're all there and excited as schoolboys. and it is -- what is surprising is that there haven't been more people trying to hog the cameras most have been on their best behavior. there was at the very beginning when the speaker started talking and someone got up and made the first point of order. and that was -- he became the first person, the first m.p. to be on television. >> we hear a loot of the undercurrent, the undercurrent of talking going on. the rubble, i guess is what it play be called. is this something we'll

constantly hear? >> yeah, the house of commons is unique is one of the things you don't do to show approval is to applaud and they never amaude in the house of commons, so the way they approve of things is to say hear hear. and so if you hear 650 people saying hear hear or the others saying shame shame, this is, this is an extraordinary sound to hear. it is odd if you go to dinner with an m.p. and you say something amusing. instead of them laughing which is the normal way the people communicate. hear hear. they have this whole parliamentary way of making sounds. >> our guests is the author of this book "how will margaret thatcher come across? >> she will address the commons. >> she has been concerned about television coming to the house. she always voted against it.

she has said that she's voted against it because she believes it will destroy the intimate atmosphere of what is essentially a debateling chamber and that the lights and cameras will be very intrusive. and other people think that she is against it because -- she thinks the cameras will work to her disadvantage. and that -- she, at the moment, until today, television -- the commons was just on the radio. and she was very fluent on the radio but she was reading from her notes and she was wearing glasses. and now wearing glasses can look for someone who is beyond, as if there is intimations of mortality that the british public don't see her wearing glasses and they don't realize she reads her notes. they think it is all especially and the prime minister's question time when you have to think on their neat, they think it got mixed up as she goes along and that's not quite the case. i think she's very concerned about that. they're also -- different views

as to how she will come across. television is a close and up and intimate medium. if she's seen to come across as a fish wife, sort of shouting at the top of her voice, that play alienate many people. on the other hand, it play have the opposite effect. it play make people think, this is the iron lady she sticks by what she says. i think it'll work both ways for her, that those people who already think she's a wonderful iron lady will say good on you, margaret and those people that can't stand her, will have their own impressions intensified. i think, though, she play learn because of television to adapt her technique. what she used to do when they would do and we haven't heard it yet, when they really do the shouting and barking and say you're really trying to talk over a wall of noise, what she would do was try and talk over it, over the top of it, and some speaker -- that sort of way of speaker -- that sort of way of doing it, i think what she play