announced they were being hit by sniper attacks originating in china. -- cyber attacks originating in china. . . for independents, 202-628-0205.

you can reach us by e-mail, journal@c-span.org. or you can use twitter through twitter.com/c-spanwj. just a reminder for callers, if you called in the last 30 days, give others a chance to call in this morning. all of the newspapers and many of the on-line web sites are leading with the recovery of the earthquake in haiti. "u.s. steps up relief effort." the cover story here in "usa today" is "a frustration -- aid frustration. there is a logjam occurring in haiti. one of the cargo planes carrying an inflatable, surgical hospital was blocked from landing on saturday, causing

delays." also this morning in "the washington post" it says "than the eye and he the." they have a chart in terms of numbers. major deployment is the headline. "u.s. armed forces are sending thousands of troops and supplies to haiti. 7500 personnel expected to arrive today. 130,000 food rations airlifted. 250,000 liters of water delivered on saturday." we will read more on this story. we want to get to our question for you. based on an opinion piece from "the washington post" what has changed in 50 years.

50 years ago, just across the river from the nation's capital, children of african descent, including many whose ancestors worked the land for george washington, were being bused far from their neighborhoods to maintain segregated school systems. interracial marriage was prohibited. in arlington and fairfax counties, lunch counters generally expected black customers to order carry out only. in parts of the district and its suburbs, housing discrimination created what activist called "a white news" around the inner city. the washington redskins had not a single black player." texas, our first caller. democratic line. go ahead. caller: basically, i think that it has gotten worse.

the government has stepped in to tell us how we are supposed to think. but it has not worked that way. it has caused too much attention. every time something happens to a black, it is major news. something happens to a white, it is ok because they deserve it. they sanctioned slavery or something like that. they keep it in the news daily. host: your take is that race relations have gone worse? caller: yes, look at haiti. we should help those people? i agree that we have to help, but they have to take some initiatives for themselves. there have been so many gangs coming out of that country.

violence. it seems to be growing worse and worse. that is why i think it is getting worse, sir. host: riverside california -- riverside, california. welcome. caller: i wanted to reinforce what the last man said to a slight degree. as long as people are going to walk around and make excuses about the situation, nothing will change. if you look at history the world over, no one expects you if you do not put up a fight. people are manhandling others, putting up signs that they shall overcome? that is not the answer. i am 50 years old. if someone comes up against you, that is your business.

i did not agree with his passive approach. i have no respect for him as a minister. they still stereotyped us. based ocala's the n word. -- they still call us the n word. host: thank you for your comments. republican line, oregon. caller: good morning. i think that the republicans respect martin luther king more than any democrat. they prove it every day. the day that obama was elected, has any democratic for democratic black person treated obama the way they treated bush? never. did they say that he was

responsible for everything that has happened since the minute he was elected? a bunch of idiots in florida that could not use a ballot? of that was bush's -- of course not, that was bush's fall. typical racism. democrats are bigots. obama is no better or worse than any other american that list today or any other time. -- lives today or any other time. to tell us that we cannot criticize a president because he is black -- host: are you hearing that? is that your take on it? caller: yes. another thing. president bush had, since hurricane katrina, rebuild fema and you never hear anyone say

anythingçó like president bush s responsible and obama is doing a great job. host: president obama, yesterday, was visiting a church in washington. he addressed race and the struggle for hope. "president obama told a church congregation that the promises inherent in his election as the nation's first african-american president and had yet to be realized, as he acknowledged the role partisan politics in washington. offering a stark assessment of his first year in office, mr. obama simultaneously issued an annual report card, a critique of liberals who complain he has not done enough, a broadside at conservatives who say he has taken on too much, and embrace

of the rev. dr. martin luther king jr. is legacy and an acknowledgement that the united states remains some distance from the post-racial world that many had envisioned immediately after his inauguration." we are asking what has changed in civil-rights and race relations over 50 years. joanne, kansas city. good morning. caller: hello, i listen to you every day, seven days a week. i am a 70-year-old woman. i was a young woman during the march of martin luther king and civil rights. things are more blatant than they were back then. we still get beaten by the police in our neighborhood. our children are taken off to prison for drugs and stuff that the average white kid does not.

host: you say that racism is more blatant than it was 50 years ago? caller: very much so. when you can get on television, like rush limbaugh, the fox news people, and sank niggey nigger d stuff like that. host: do you hear them use those words? caller: yes, i do. rush limbaugh, if he would stop taking ought to come -- ox ycontin, maybe he would learn how to talk to people. host: detroit, bill. independent line. your thoughts? caller: i am proud of this government and proud of this country. i think the soldiers that are

dying -- host host: glad to have your opinion this morning, but please give us 30 days before you call in again. one month is the rule. martin luther king jr. day, what has changed in 50 years? "in 1963, blacks and whites came together in a great congregation on the mall of the city. confirming that history was on a new course. the nation was not wired for pre informed than. each sentence that rev. martin luther king jr. uttered on the steps of the lincoln memorial was new to most americans. "i have a dream, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners," and the exultant conclusion, "free at

last." that from the open "the washington post" this morning -- that from "the washington post" this morning. one person who was instrumental in turning this into a day of service, during his single term in the u.s. senate he partnered with john lewis in georgia to pass in 1994 the martin luther king jr. holiday and service act. both men who were friends of king, were fed up and disappointed with what the holiday had become. rather than a day of unity and service, it was little more than a broadcast of the "i have a dream" speech and sales at shopping malls."

joseph, good morning. caller: people, do not forget that martin luther king jr. was a republican. just like john kennedy would never be part of the current democratic party. host: let me ask you that, you think that martin luther king jr. would support the current administration? ocaller: it depends on if you would want to take race into consideration. if he did not support obama the black people would call him an uncle tom. if you have a disagreement with obama the first thing that democrats do is say that you are racist. but i do not want to get away from this. host: sorry to interrupt. caller: know, that was a good question. but martin luther king jr. was a republican. he wanted you to look at his integrity, not the color of your skin.

the federal government has now forced white people to quiet down if they disagree. i am waiting for the laws that say that black people have to like white people. that last lady that just called in and said those things about rush limbaugh and glenn beck, neither of whom are people i listen to, she is lying nigger. host: toledo, ohio. democratic line. caller: until ronald reagan came into office, we did not have a crack cocaine.

they took over the media. there used to be a saying, the media would not show the police using the water hoses on people. they say that the media and inflamed racial things -- that the media inflamed racial things in the south. of course, today the media is silent on anything racial. baseball. they take all of those african- americans out of baseball. every time they have an investigation -- host: larry, are you talking about the current day? they have kicked all of the

african americans out of baseball? caller: sure. in the 1980's, that is when the african americans stopped being in baseball and nobody said anything. host: you think that was a concerted effort on the part of baseball? caller: flood? host: you think that was a concerted effort on the part of baseball? caller: yes. host: this is the start of the legislative week for the u.s. senate. they will be back on wednesday. health care legislation is still being worked on between the house and the senate. "the washington times" said this morning that "they're ready this far over health care issues. supporters of abortion rights

hope to remove restrictions on abortion access from the house and senate bills. "we think it is possible to come up with language that the pro- choice caucus would find acceptable." declining to elaborate, "it is really sensitive and we need to figure it out." the u.s. catholic bishops council urged support of the house plan and against the senate plan." that is the report from "the washington times." in "the christian sciencemonitos "a $1 trillion political football. the first big bill facing congress as it returns." florida, don.

what has changed in 50 years and race relations, with civil rights? caller: we have a black president and we should not forget. 45% of white people voted for president obama. there is some racism out there. i hear people talking about the good old days. those big old days were bad days for many people of color. -- those good old days for bad old days for many people of color. in response to that one caller

that use the n word? my sentiment is that he sees it and i see it. i remember i was going to the store. it woman followed me all the way through the store. -- a woman followed me all of the way through the store. my wife and i are business owners. this is what is going on. i remember the louisiana 6. white people did not think it was racism. let's call it what it is. sometimes blacks will call things racism that are not racism. but -- host: thank you for sharing your

views this morning. president obama was at northeastern university, stumping for the democratic candidate in a special race there. the massachusetts senate race comes down to tuesday. part of the peace in "the washington post" is "obama urged voters to send martha oakley to the senate. a surprisingly close race that has taken on national implications legislatively and politically. an upset victory on tuesday by senator scott brown, who was an afterthought a month ago in this democratic dominated state, would give senate republicans 41 boats, enough to potentially scuttle the sweeping health care legislation that is the president's top domestic agenda

priority. republicans also think that claiming kennedy's old seat, under his family's control since 1953, would be a political jolt that could herald big gains in november's midterm elections." here is what the president had to say. "i want a party that will put the people ahead of the special interests. this is what i know, martha has done so. she has a track record of doing so. i know there are things on which she and i disagree. i respect her for that. she does not just call herself independent. she has the character of being independent. [applause] so, i hear that her opponent is calling himself an independent. well, you have got to look under

the hood. what you learned makes you wonder. -- you learn makes you wonder. he voted with republicans as a legislator 96% of the time. seems hard to claim that he is significantly independent from the republican agenda. host: back to our calls this morning -- what has changed in 50 years on this martin luther king day? gary, tennessee. republican caller. caller: how are you doing? i would like to wish everyone a happy martin luther king day. as a native american, i know what racism is. but you would never get something passed like red man day. living in tennessee, last year

we had two white children that were raped repeatedly, tortured with hot bars and murdered. none of this has been on the national news. not a word of it. but here in the south when some white kids were accused of raping a black woman at a party, because they played at a big college it was every day, all day on the news, and they found out that she lied. racism has not changed. we are still waiting for flu vaccine on the reservation. host: tommy, democratic line. oklahoma. caller: i do not feel that a lot has changed. i guess it has changed to some degree, but we have had tremendous setbacks in the area of unemployment.

if you look at the employment situation right now, black unemployment is the highest in this nation. all over. at one point i heard that in new york it was running at 50%. what i would like to see is -- we have had tremendous setbacks in the area of affirmative action. it was designed to level the playing field. the last administration put the final blow to affirmative action as far as diminishing its effect. when you let someone defined discrimination that is not being discriminated against, that is when you have problems. host: your view on it is that the higher unemployment rate, the number-one reason, is a

diminishment of affirmative action? caller: doing away with quotas, if it is wrong, so be it. but it is supposed to be wrong across the board. you cannot have quotas of 0 or 1. those of the numbers in which they hire black americans in these jobs. i would like someone to take that to the supreme court. quotas are illegal at this point. that was done by the last administration. if you will not have them to level the playing field, you need to do away with the quota of zero and one. host: thank you for weighing in.

north carolina, suzanne. hello. caller: my main point is that the more things change, the more things stay the same. people see what they want to see. racism today is more alive today that was yesterday. the only difference is that it was more subtle. i have white friends that tell me all of time about discussions that they have in their homes, comments that they make about minorities in this country. i cannot believe what i hear sometimes. i do not have much hope for the people alive today. my hope is in future generations. more interracial dating and marriage. host: do you have children? caller: i do not. one of the reasons i do not is because the way the world is. crazy the way that it is. i cannot see myself bring

children into this world. i would like to make a point about the man that made a comment about haitians. i am of haitian descent. my parents came here very young. i am a lawyer. we were never in gangs, we never sold drugs. never got into any kind of trouble whatsoever. all of the way through graduate school we were contributing members of society. what you see on television when they talk about haiti, they show the beautiful areas. you never see the people that are asking for help. many of us are very successful and hard working. we are not abnormal. there are many of us out there. host: have you heard from your family and friends in haiti?

caller: yes, and everyone is fine, thank goodness. host: thank you for your call. next call, jackson -- is this mississippi? go ahead on the independent line -- hold on just a moment, that caller mentioned being from haiti, i wanted to show the front page of "the new york times." "food aid getting in hello well short of the need, that is the piece this morning in "the new york times." -- "food aid beginning in," but short of the need, that is the piece this morning in "the new york times." let's hear from pensacola, florida. go ahead. calling on the independent line. hello. caller: good morning.

thank you for taking my call. the comment that i want to make -- has anything changed? shortly before dr. king was assassinated, he was in a campaign to end poverty in this country but throughout the world as well. he also stood up against the current wars the the country was involved in. the war in vietnam. considering that iraq and afghanistan have become such quagmire is, it seems that there has been some progress, but some things may have gotten worse. i think that what we need to do to honor dr. king would be to stand in opposition of these wars. and also to help to end poverty

throughout the world. host: thank you for that. the architect of the marbling tooth -- martin luther king jr. memorial joins us on the phone. ed jackson, thank you for calling this morning. caller: good morning. how are you? host: doing very well. give us some details on where the memorial is being built. caller: it is on the mall, there is a 4 acre site that links the lincoln memorial and jefferson memorial. the tidal basin is linked to the southeast, with independent avenues to the north and south are the fdr memorial and an open field park. host: what do you hope that

visitors will come away with when it is completed? of caller: last night i had -- completed? caller: last night i had an opportunity to share my objectives with a group of interested citizens in mclean, virginia. we hoped that this memorial was not a monument. that it would be a living memorial. the goal of making a living memorial, we would have the opportunity to capture the vision of dr. king on a 500 foot-long granite wall. we would have the opportunity to carve on that wall some of the statements that he wanted to pass on to cheat -- to future generations. to inspire them and take on his general -- his vision.

there are four things that we tried to identify. democracy, pope, justice, and humanity -- democracy, hope, justice, and humanity. host: we have been looking at the virtual tour that can be found on your web site. tell us about the style of hope and where it was designed. -- stone of hope and where it was designed. caller: it is being designed in china. the sculptor is from there. we looked at countries all around the world. we did investigations into the identification of a sculptor. as it is currently developed, 80% from china. there are 159 pieces.

in the month of february we are planning to ship those items to the united states. we are on our way back to china next month to initiate that objective. the stone is a pinkish gray stone, attending to add some color to the pigment of the face of dr. king, since he was an african-american, as opposed to using the solid gray or solid white stone often used in sculpting in this country. host: what more has to be done in terms of fund-raising? caller: december, 15th, we issued a notice to proceed to the contractor. on the 28 to december construction began. this is a 20 month effort.

we have already started to give the trailers on to the site. in february and march the stone will be in the process of being moved from china to the united states by ship. our estimation is that it will take three ships to get over here. also, in the month of february we will be involved in the infrastructure -- for anyone in the washington area, we will be driving concrete piles into the ground, 50 feet below the surface, to support the structural slab. many viewers may not be aware that the location of the fdr and lincoln memorial, at one time in the history of washington that was actually in the potomac

river. we are building on a landfill. to support our project, we have to go down to the bedrock and construct a structural slab and from there on we can finish landscaping. host: when do you think you will have the grand opening of the memorial? caller: the dedication is planned for 2011. the sculptor will be here between september and october of this year to finish off the monument, the stone of hope. host: ed jackson, of the head architect of the martin luther king jr. memorial. we want to thank you for joining us this morning. caller: thank you. host: back your comments and questions this morning. 10 minutes more of phone calls about how things have changed

on race relations and civil rights in the last 50 years. charles, new orleans. go ahead. caller: number one, we have had a president. host: make sure that you mute your television and keep going. charles, i am putting on hold for a second and getting another call. ed, democratic line. caller: thank you. i do not think that things have changed as much in the past 50 years. at the universal -- university of heidelberg in germany, i attended and learn german. i was treated with respect. you think that things have

changed here, but not so much when you look at the situation in this country. if we had done away with the apartheid attitudes, we had -- we would be further along. compare what we have today to the day when martin luther king was here. thank you for the call. host: back to charles. caller: we have more black coaches in sports. we have a black president. we have more black, female

entertainers. mayors, governors. all of this is important, leading up to equality. it will never be 100%. we still have to fight. when you put a mark late -- martin luther king jr. memorial in washington? that is outstanding. thank you. host: a comment from joe on twitter -- sometimes we care too much about words and attitudes rather than economic and cultural opportunities. jeanie, independent line. go ahead. caller: our children, until they went to public school, they did not know the difference in

people. they thought that some people had a goods on hand and some did not. -- they thought that some people had a good suntan and some did not. labeling each other, for whatever reason we do that, every time that i call i say that there is a role for everyone on this planet. i wish that we would stop the greed and competition. thank you very much. host: what has changed in 50 years, that is the opinion piece this morning in "the washington post." "the country has undergone a conversion experience, similar to that that happened with abraham lincoln. he said to a group of black leaders in 1862, "un we are

different races. it is better for us both to be separated. -- separated." yet, less than three years later, he invoked an almost biblical vision of the civil war as divine punishment for the sin of slavery. he had changed in important ways." minneapolis, go ahead. caller: a lot has changed. just as you read in the beginning. what happened 50 years ago as compared to today. i want to honor those that brought the change about. dr. martin luther king jr. and the everyday people that risk their lives to march in the south. other bases are different. like men and women are different. but we have of pressed other

races, and we cannot do that. legislating that has been somewhat successful, but you cannot change the hearts and minds of people through government. it must be through an expansion of the mind to people that are not the same as you. host: thank you. the holiday became a national day of service by legislation in 1994. "many mark the holiday as a time to help others." that is this morning in "usa today." the number of registered service projects are down from last year. there are more than 10,000 this year by an honor of the holiday. stephen goldsmith, from the chairman of the corporation -- stephen goldsmith, the chairman of the national corp. for community service, said "last year's efforts may have been

bolstered by the fact that president obama inc. a day of service into his inaugural festivities." mike, republican line. caller: i think that some things have changed with the black race. but there are other things that are worse. people getting caught up in entitlement. we just need a good education and good jobs, that would help the black race a lot. that caller from earlier, angry with glenn beck -- i listened to him as i like to hear different opinions. lou dobbs, he was taken off of cnn? education is the key.

host: looking at the massachusetts election race tomorrow, from the public policy polling institute, they released these numbers -- scott brown is leading, 51-46. within the margin of error. over the last week he has continued his dominance with independent voters and increase his ability to win over obama voters. at the same time, democratic leaning voters have started to take more interest in the election, a trend that if it continues it could put her over the finish line." the couple of comparative polls in that race -- a couple of comparative polls in the race, "channel 7, rasmussen polls, all showing senator brown with a

slight edge over martha copley." independent caller, what has changed in the last 50 years, roger? caller: i have seen much more tolerance for different races in the area. i am in a small town in virginia. i see different races tolerated more. i think it is a big improvement. i think we have a ways to go, but i really treasure martin luther king jr.. he was a great man. he led the way in a lot of things that helped all round as a nation. i would like to see more improvements as we go along. host: here is a story about how we get the news, from

thedailybeast.com. "new york *" is ready to charge online readers -- "the new york times" is ready to charge online readers. they will begin charging for access to their web site according to people familiar with an internal deliberations. there were many choices over the years, some of which allowed sampling of articles. "the new york times" seems to have settled on a metered system. the new plan could be added in a number of weeks." one more call, democratic line, baltimore. go ahead.

caller: many things have changed, some things have not. that is evident. the previous caller that referred to a another caller as the n word, he can hide behind the television and call someone that word, but if he said that the someone's face, just wait and see what happens. host: next we have steve bartlett, here to talk about wall street bonuses and a proposed fee on the banks. we will be right back. ♪

>> tuesday, your chance to talk to the authors of "game change." they are talking about the impact of the book, live tuesday morning on c-span's "washington journal." middle school students in high school students, just a few days left to enter the studentscam contest. -- studentcam contest. there are $50,000 in total prize money. do not delay, enter today. nature to of load your project by midnight, wednesday. did you know that one of the

top three news applications for your ipod or iphone is c-span radio? you can get quick access to three streaming audio channels. there's also a tab of links to all of our broadcasts. it is all free and available from the app store. >> "washington journal" continues. host: steve bartlett is the financial services roundtable president and ceo. here to talk about the president's proposal from last week, a fee on the top earning banks. what is your view on this? guest: one of the most bizarre suggestions i have ever seen. a tax that is a way to pay the tarp and a punishment from congress. here is the fact, banks have

repaid two-thirds of their portion of the tarp. they lost sales and it will be repaid. the law provides for those losses to be recouped. beginning in four years while we get out of economic recovery. this fee is a tax in search of a purpose. host: your view is that by repaying the tarp, it makes the feed unnecessary? guest: and that is one of the changes in purposes of the feet, of which is to fill trecoup the. should there be any losses, it would be paid. and we should accept that. that is the way it should be. host: "the new york times" talks about how high these fees could

be. "banks with $50 million in assets or more." correct? of guest: iguest: it seems to st 50 specific companies, and those 50 companies would pay this punitive tax service. about $120 billion. not all of them are banks. some of them are financial service for insurance companies. it extracts the money from them. host: there is also a report this morning from "the wall street journal" that "there is a constitutional challenge to the new proposed tax. wall street's main lobbying arm

has hired a litigator to study a possible legal battle against the obama administration according to the theory that it would be unconstitutional, executives of writing that a bank tax might be unconstitutional -- executives riding that a bank tax might be unconstitutional. some of these officials did not want to be identified." is this what you are talking about? guest: it does not take a constitutional lawyer to tell you that, the way that it is proposed. it is unconstitutional in the legal to tax specific entities by name as a general revenue collector. you cannot single out joe, sam,

frank, sally, and martha for tax collection. host: we will get to the calls in a moment. for democrats, 202-737-0002. for republicans, 202-737-0001. for independents, 202-628-0205. guest: you should also note that those 50 companies are somewhere in the financial service industry, very large, some of which are a part of tarp. some of them are not. some of them are related to the crisis that occurred. others had no relation at all. it is an amalgamation based on size. host: are they all members of the financial services corp.? guest: they are not. it was specified by description. it was and probably conceived

thing that came from political anger, it seems, as opposed to an orderly repayment of the trp. -- tarp. the taxpayers have already received profit on that, as they should. it got the economy started again, stabilizing it. if this fee is enacted, and i do not think that it will be, it would shut that off. host: the house came back last week with a possible 50% tax on bonuses, possibly 75% tax on bonuses. what is your take on this? guest: it is the punitive, mob mentality of going out to punish people. as an industry we accept responsibility for our part of it.

i made mistakes. i have apologized for that. companies have made mistakes and are trying to move forward. bonuses are a different deal. that is a part of compensation. whether it is a restaurant manager or a new car dealer, or a home builder of hanging subcontracts. they pay them, restaurants pay managers, compensation to help earnings. bonuses in the service industry are a part of compensation in should be paid based on long- term earnings. in 2009, they good this many companies were able to restore earnings. there was a good deal of hard work and intensity. as that happened, compensation increased, as it should. jpmorgan chase announced a 19%

increase in overall compensation in the face of restoring earnings back to normal. that said, if earnings go up, compensation should go up. host: is your group in favor of those bonuses being more in the form of stocks? guest: there has been a sea change that has not been well reported in the last 12 months, financial service companies and other companies in the private sector have restructured their compensation for long-term performance and stock. bankers that receive tarp money are actually required to offer only restricted stock in bonus. tied to long-term performance, not the short term. host: new jersey, independent line. you are on the air.

go ahead. caller: good morning. 94 taking my call. -- thank you for taking my call. the money that they have on reserve, in terms of globalization where they want to have their cake and eat it as well, they do not pay fair with the outsourcing of jobs. ceo's in their offices, while people are making $14,000 per year working under them, they got all the bonuses at those financial firms. it is horrendous that they got those bonuses, they did nothing to earn income, they did everything to deregulate the market and steal the money from everyone else. because of ubs and the accounts

that were exposed, hiding money in the system, that was terrific. host: lots on the table, let's get a response. thank you for the call. guest: first of all, as an industry we take responsibility for what happened. a lot of mistakes were made. i made several, as did others. there have been a lot of short- term decisions made. we have changed that rather dramatically. in terms of long-term compensation for bonuses, there was risk management. underlying it all was the mortgage crisis, which -- with good intentions, frankly, of set ou set out to provide a home loan for everyone in america.

we got home ownership, providing mortgages to people that could not afford to repay, which became a source of the problem. ceo's of my companies have said that 2009 was one of the toughest years of their lives. some of them have simply gone. but they are working to rebuild this economy and that is what it is badly all about. host: what firms do you represent? guest: state farm, bankamerica, jpmorgan chase, all of the way to bancorp south by and mississippi. companies that are -- bancorp south in mississippi. companies that are national and ones that are more local. host: this complaint from viewers and voters about pay,

what you find? guest: pay and compensation has changed radically in the last year, but you would not know it because it is not being reported on. but it has changed a lot to reflect long-term performance. host: the next call comes from california. caller: the man that you have on there is a liar. host: if you have something to say or ask, that is fine. but to call someone a liar is out of bounds. san antonio, good morning. caller: how is everyone? host: fine, thank you. caller: it seems that you have not the courage to tell congress a thing or two. congress is in the death

creating business. they have got to slow down on spending so much money. they are not required to do anything to repay the money that they ago. -- owe. that gentleman from new jersey, he is giving your business a wake-up call. it is not your problem, what government has done. congress is a joke. they want to blame you. this whole thing of pointing a finger at someone, there are two pointing back to you. this is not the job of congress, to do this. keep in mind, the rich folks are the only people that hire.

poor folks do not hire anyone. . .

that is what will come out. host: houston, texas. independence line. caller: could you explain what the financial services roundtable is? and also, how much money you make a year? what was your first job out of college? guest: financial services roundtable is a trade association, led the american hospital association, national association of realtors. virtually everyone in america is part of a trade association whether they know it or not. it is part of the constitution. that is the way the system works.

powertrain association is 100 companies, the larger companies operating in that country. we operate about 60% of all the financing done in america. you cannot finance the economy this size without the larger companies. our trade association is 100 of those of larger companies. if you live in it, work in it, one of my companies will finance it. my first job before college was working on a daily farm and picking cotton in texas, by the way. my first job of college, -- out of college, i was a real-estate agent.

i make about $1.5 million a year as bessie ito -- the ceo. i have to say, it is a good job, a chance to be in politics. host: and you were the mayor of dallas? guest: yes, go cowboys. caller: i called to say that you said that you made some mistakes. the problem is, when they got the bonuses, they kept them. remember they said that they would give them back? that is the problem. now when they say they deserve the bonuses, is not right.

guest: what you just said did happen a couple of times, but it is more the perception and reality. there are such things called clawbacks. many people involved lost their job, and should have, and many of those businesses went out of business. if you made that many mistakes, then you ought to. we are a group that does not believe in too big to fail. bonuses should be based on long- term performance. if you lost money, you should not receive a bonus. if you received it under false pretenses, then there should be a clawback. host: going back to the fall of the 2008, your view, your

organization's view is that some of those institutions should have been allowed to fail? guest: yes, but treasury did that based on the knowledge that they had. it would have been a greater systemic failure. lehman brothers simply went bankrupt, and that did lead to a lot of the meltdown. somewhere in there is a balance, but the company's that failed, they should have been allowed to fail. countrywide, wachovia, washington mutual, lehman brothers, they all failed, and then went away. there is able for the government to make sure the failure of one

company does not trigger the systemic failure of thousands of others. that is really what this is about. when a company fails, make sure it does not bring down the whole system. host: next phone call from new jersey. pat on the republican line. nashville, tennessee. go ahead. caller: i would like to make a statement about fannie mae and freddie mac. if i am not mistaken, these two mortgage institutions were created in the 1970's for the purpose of enabling low income, primarily african-americans to

purchase homes. from then until 2000 the program worked fine. they got people into low income homes. they gave them part of the american dream, and it worked fine. it is mine understanding that it was not until the lending institutions found that it was to their financial benefit to give mortgages to anyone without looking at their ability to repay. there are a lot of people who want to put all the blame on the people who borrowed the money, but they did not go in with guns and force those mortgage lenders to give them loans that they and

the lender knew they could not pay. there were many interests -- instances when it was to the benefit of the mortgage lender to change the financial information on those loans after they had been signed by the people trying to get the loan. the purpose of that was the mortgage lender or a loan officer was getting paid piecemeal for each loan they made. so oftentimes people would unknowingly signed a piece of paper, give correct information, and because it was to the benefit of the person making alone, to get it out the door, they changed those people's financial information. do not put this on the people

who are trying to get a piece of the dream. i know people who work in a real estate, lawyers. they say reading those loan applications -- people are supposed to understand. guest: you have it about right. there is lots of blame going around. fannie and freddie did a lot of good things. as they got larger and moved into direct lending, then they were the source of some of that problem. but the responsibility of making those loans were on the lenders, and some -- not most -- made loans that were not well-underwritten. once that started happening to a large degree and sold to wall street, that is where the problem started.

as far as blame, you have to put that on the lenders and on the borrower's, knowing they could not repay the money. a lot of it, also, is on the regulatory system. they did not step in to regulate this for safety and soundness. i have to say, even trade associations, like mine, did not catch this. there is blame enough to go around, but a big source, as you said, was making mortgages without their ability to pay. it is fixed, but all the horses are already running around in

the pasture. host: president obama proposed this responsibility fee. what responsibility do financial institutions have to be prepared for future instances of failure? guest: we agree with the concept, the law that provides for that. this is what we believe we should be doing. we ought to repay t.a.r.p. this additional punitive fee is simply that. it is being offered for a lot of different reasons, but recouping t.a.r.p. cannot be one of them. financial-services should create a fund and be there for funding,

for problems like this, as the fdic does. host: what is your proposal for a transaction fees? guest: i think it would be a disaster. jack kemp described it similarly a few years ago. in a transaction tax is a small bite out of people's mutual funds, retirement, savings, and eventually, the patient dies. host: next phone call. caller: i had a question about

banking bonuses. are they treated as income or capital gains? guest: in,, just like competition. -- income, just like compensation. most of the cost of an investment banker is personnel. you want to have bonuses that are tied to long-term performance. unfortunately, in the past, too many of those bonuses were tied to short-term performance. that is what the industry is correcting. it did not take any regulation, it took some board of directors who got serious about this to get it back to long-term

performance. bonuses are taxable. host: is it your view that more will change in that way rather than regulation? guest: yes, and that is the way it should be. the federal reserve has proposed a set of regulations which we support as well, and that say that compensation structures, including bonuses, have to take account risk, so you do not create structure of compensation that adds to the risk. we support that. the compensation torture, in terms of paying a fee for making a mortgage, is no longer allow, should not have been allowed. host: tennessee. judy on the republican line.

caller: i think a lot of people forget janet reno. they were forced to make these loans. when president bush signed t.a.r.p., he said it was good for the taxpayer, the american people will get their money back. that is true. we are getting paid interest on that money, unlike the stimulus package. that stimulated nothing. obama's said he was going to be ready to rule from day one, and that is what he is doing. he is ramming health care down our throats. he went to massachusetts and the whipped them into line. guest: always good to hear

someone from tennessee. about 37% of the people who fought in the texas revolution were from tennessee. in the 1970's, 1980's, 99 days, there was pressure to -- 99 days, there was pressure to loan to the low income level-type of people. the problem is, that resulted in people not being able to pay it back. it is true that t.a.r.p. was designed to get the economy financed, to get the banks recapitalized so they could finance the economy. that is what happened. t.a.r.p. has been successful, in that sense. host: next phone call. keller, texas.

caller: where are they hiring these people? apparently, not here. one thing that you have failed to mention, mr. mark leff, -- bartlett, is that bonuses have risen 200% while the average worker's wage has gone down considerably. how much do you contribute to lobbyists? i know that without money, nothing can be done. it is only the big guys that can afford this. i know you are just bankers, but manufacturing has been in a problem. for instance, mitt romney, he

went in and bought up these companies and shipped away these jobs, . nobody mentions this. there was one senator who was missing from a vote -- host: which one is that? caller: it turns out he was in new york meeting with bankers. some of these people just cannot get it. guest: good to hear from texas. on hiring and unemployment, they have not come back. that is a mixed phase. we are not fully in recovery yet, but we stopped the slide

and we can start to see the signs of recovery. it took us awhile to get into this mess, and it will take us awhile to get out. as far as bonuses, they did get out of line. about the thing about that is if a board of directors pay their people too much, they will go broke. if you pay them too little, you will lose your best talent, and then you will also go broke. whether it is a restaurant, new car dealership, that is a constant judgment that business has to make. the government cannot make that answer for you. let me defend john corn and -- jon cornyn.

he is my senator, too. i do not know if he ever missed a vote that was close or significant, but i will take your word and looked it up. as far as lobbyists, that is in the constitution, the right to redress and petition your government. that is what lobbyists are. they are paid to represent the views of people in congress. host: under president obama, is there less or more of that? guest: may be about the same. it is not his fault. the government is bigger, more intrusive, has a lot of change going on. people have issues they want to be heard.

host: back to bonuses, there was an opinion piece in the "wall street journal" talking about the structure of bonuses in pay. he writes -- guest: well, that is a lot to

chew on. i do not know about the community part of that. what i know is companies, on to open doors, as well and big corporations, exist to provide goods and services to their communities. in order to do that, they generate a profit, or else they cannot provide those services. managers are measured by the legitimate profit they make. in 2008, when financial services was in the tank, they did not generate profits, so their compensation was cut. in 2009, one never able to buy the goods and services -- when they were able to provide goods and services, compensation increased accordingly.

however, what went wrong, the earnings, bonuses started to get focused on a short-term decisions. that is what is being changed pretty dramatically by every border directors in america. you have to look to the long- term performance of the company, not just the earnings from this quarter. host: what is the biggest thing york companies are doing to be watchful of risk? guest: every board of directors have created a risk committee or risk officer where they look at the compensation structure and see if it adds to risk. in terms of compensation, there is more issuance of stock, and there are now clawbacks.

that is currently in the contracts that these companies are giving out. the third thing you do is a three-year trailing average. this is not very well understood or talk about. instead of taking just this quarter's earnings, you do an average or -- over the last three years and you base your bonus on that three-year trailing average. the coca-cola board of directors believe they may not get paid in 2009 because from that three- year trailing average, they felt like they may fall below their benchmark. that is what companies are doing. host: his organization opposed to those sorts of things? guest: we are in favor of them. host: been codified into law?

guest: our issue is if the government's screws it up. the generally, if the government begins to regulate something, even if it is close to right, then the other 10% that is wrong still misses it up. host: next phone call from new london, connecticut. caller: good morning. i want to make a comment. i belong to the building trade. we saw this coming about five years ago, the bubble, the subprime lending tactics. tactics -- that is exactly what

they were. they do these advanced tactics to steal people's mortgages. i was handing out flyers to the people who need help can they were giving me the finger, telling me to go home. we knew that this was coming five years ago. guest: i will confess, i saw it coming early in 2007. i testified in congress. once our industry started to see it -- shame on us for not seeing

it earlier. once we started to see it, we started to get it corrected. but by that time, trillions were already cooked in the books. to this day, i regret i did not see it sooner. it was not just me, either. not just financial-services companies. this was a classic bubble where everyone thought it could go on forever. one of the things we are asking for it is systemic regulation, where you regulate the entire system. if a particular bank would originate in mortgage -- a mortgage, and if there was not

the ability to pay, there would be a regulator that would say, and they do not have the ability to be paid. the problem is, mortgages did not go away, they just got sold to securities firms who then to jurors -- securitized them into pensions. to this day and there is no connection. -- to this day, there is no connection. you hear a lot about consumer protection, but the biggest thing is systemic risk. host: you served in the house? guest: i was in my fifth term when i left to be mayor of dallas. host: do you miss it? guest: a of course. i was there with a purpose and a

cause. -- guest: of course. i was there to help people benefit. i hope that is still the case with members of congress. i enjoyed every minute of it. host: steve bartlett, thank you for your time. we will be back to talk to colonel j.m. venhaus about the recruitment effort. first, an update from c-span radio. >> president obama spends much of the day celebrating martin luther king jr. day. the president close the conversation with a group of african-american seniors and their grandchildren on the legacy of the civil rights movement. this evening, the first family attempt -- plans to attend a concert. an update on haiti.

u.s. military forces there are a backup option for maintaining peace and security, surge began serving as a standby behind asian and u.n. personnel. he added the situation is being monitored closely. meanwhile, lawmakers are introducing a bipartisan bill that would give greater tax breaks to americans looking to donate money to relief efforts in haiti jim cliburn is working with eric cantor to introduce the legislation later today or tomorrow morning when congress returns to session. more relief coming from the european union which has pledged nearly $6 million to help haiti. >> tonight, larry and cohen on

the federal government's role on expanding high-speed internet. >> live in this february, "book tv" welcomes paul johnson, author of over 40 books. his latest is on winston churchill joined us for a three-hour conversation from london. noon eastern. host: colonel j.m. venhaus is the jennings house army fellow. he was in charge of targeting and assessment in afghanistan. he is here to talk about how young men become extremists. what is the number one factor in a young man becoming a muslim

extremist? guest: the most important thing we need to understand about how these young men are attracted to an extremist movement is it starts early. there are some myths, that is economic, has religious factors, but you have to look back at their bases of what they desire as they come of age, as they start to define themselves. the search for identity. who am i, as a person? the search for that vector-less energy makes it possible for the base of what a young man feels, to make al qaeda appealing, because he does not have other

choices. host: we are not talking about women being recruited are we? guest: not as much. there are a very limited number of young women involved in al qaeda. if the primary reason of that is not necessarily because they have different motivations but they have significantly different opportunities. all lot of these young men find themselves isolated in a society that they do not understand, that does not understand them. with travel limitations on women, it is hard to get away from their communities can be isolated. it is harder for them to feel like they are a fish out of water. -- communities and be isolated.

host: colonel j.m. venhaus is with us until 9:15 the stern. democrats, 202-737-0002. republicans, 202-737-0001. independents, 202-628-0205. we will get to your phone calls momentarily. since 2001, how has al qaeda's recruitment effort to change? guest: the most important when they have changed is the way have redefined itself as an international brand. al qaeda is much less of an organization today -- structurally -- and much more a brand identity. it is almost like a product brand, a brand that people want to belong to. some people say that al qaeda's

greatest strength is its myth. it does not recruit so much that it creates a brand where people look to it and say, that is what i am looking for. i was confused, i did not know who i was or how i fit into the world, and this seems to be a great explanation. it is a sense of belonging. al qaeda is a great group because they provided that, the benefits of membership into something that gives you prestige. al qaeda has gone from being active on the street-type of recruiting to creating a brand, creating something that people can aspire to. host: in terms of personalities, the flight 253 subset --

suspect, abdulmutallab, he was close to a nobody. is that typical? guest: absolutely. he is a young man searching for something. he does not understand how he fits into the world but he wants to isolation is a huge factor. -- but he wants to. isolation is a huge factor. host: but there are plenty of

young people who feel isolated. what is the step in between? guest: opportunity. if i am a young man looking for a group to belong to and there are 10 groups, i could choose any one of them. if i am a young man who is isolated, looking for a group to belong to, and all that is presented to me, or the most appealing thing is al qaeda, then that looks like the best choice. some people say that if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. well, if everything around you looks like a nail, then you are going to act like a hammer. it is not unlike youth gang violence that we see here. it is not that these young

people are fundamentally different from other young people. it is that they did not have the opportunity to find some other outlet for belonging. host: next phone call. caller: thank you for taking my call. i wanted to address one aspect of compensation that has been missing. when you think about how to 80% of the world's resources goes to america, you can understand how people in those areas become disenfranchised. they are not able to benefit from the resources. when there is a small minority of the world's population that

creates -- controls the large majority of the resources, that is a problem. i do not want to focus specifically on al qaeda, but thiere is different -- disenfranchisement around the world when they cannot even use the resources from their own land. that is what makes people mobilize against those invading forces. i think that is in large part of the problem. a small minority of the world's population controls the large resources of the world. host: thank you. guest: i think you hit on one of the myths myths associated with recruitment. what we have done is study about

2000 young men who had come to extremism. we look at the cases of these 2000 who made the decision to jump into a and extremist organization and try to trace back word to the point where they made the decision to join. they learned about exploitation of resources and they learned that tens of disenfranchisement that we talked about throughout the process. that was not what drew them in. you have to go further back in their development to figure out why they joined because you have to know what motivated them to look for something. once they walk into a mosque and a hear about jihad, they get a lot of information about the world that they did not have. a lot of it is skewed. but that is after they made the

decision to cross the threshold. that is not the motivator that got them to the front door. so the exploitation of the world's resources is an argument used by them in the indoctrination process, but it is not so much a part of the recruitment process. host: s.i.. -- staten island. caller: thank you for your service. i keep on hearing the term al qaeda. are they the only extremist group we have to be concerned with? is it also not the fact that this is a conception of the policies that we have? for instance, iraq.

is it not possible that some of them -- even if i do not agree with their actions -- [inaudible] guest: other than al qaeda, yes. there are lots of associated movements. all data has become more of a blanket term, not necessarily for any specific organization, but for that brand that i talked about. the violent extremism rooted in ideology that goes by several names in different places. in many of those other places, any of the other associated movement, the adult -- ideology can be the same because the appeal is the same.

the escalation of status, sense of belonging to a group that they find in these kinds of groups. in some cases, as we saw with porticoed, -- for food, people who have never been associated -- fort hood, people heawho have never been associated with a group. in terms of our policies, do they turn them against us? in some cases, yes. some people in the world are against that, and because of that, i want to speak an angrily

about that. what a change in policies change the fundamental nature of the argument? not entirely. there would still be people willing to speak angrily against the policy. host: a skeptical view from one of our viwerewers -- as she underestimating al qaeda? guest: she is alluding to the fact that there is a change in the way al qaeda operates. when al qaeda was a network -- a part of the movie had been -- mujihadeen network, it is a different al qaeda that directly threatens the united states. it has made statements since

that time in afghanistan when it was referred to as freedom fighters on behalf of the afghan people, made statements about its global operations. it has gone from localized movement with a political cost to a globalized movement with a completely different political cause. host: colonel j.m. venhaus. maryland. republican line. caller: i think when there are a lot of young men with nothing to do, they will find something to do to get them in trouble. don't you think employment is a problem? guest: what i found in the men that i studied it is the vast

majority of them came from middle-class and upper-middle- class upbringing. unemployment was in frequently cited. when i first went in, i thought the same thing. the truth is, more often than not, they are employed. i read an interview with one of the saudis who crossed over into iraq who said i was about to get promoted in work, but it did not fulfil the, so i look for something else. i think the basic motivation is more about what he was looking for them it was about having a job or not. there was talk about al qaeda promising money to fighters. when someone makes a decision to leave their jobs, their home, a

relatively peaceful environment, toward the conflict zone, almost never is it because of the pay. suicide bombers cannot get paid well. it never has. when you talk to the young men who joined the cause, they are not looking for money for themselves, their families, or anything like that. it is, i had no meaning. can you get meaning and fulfillment from a good job? of course you can. having any meaningful job is more important than just having a job. when you look at the countries across the middle east, where the foreign fighters are drawn from, we see unemployment rate that vary from 2.2%, all the way

up to 40%. those statistical correlation between unemployment and the number of foreign fighters that that country generates. statistically, the data doesn't support that. however, having for unemployment conditions in a country that to the argument. host: you mentioned those 2000 individual that you studied. is this part of your work with the u.s. institute of peace? guest: yes, this is work that i started in the centcom region. that was followed up by a collaborative effort by the u.s. army war college. one year of fellowship where i can take my field experience reviewing the information about born fighters -- foreign

fighters, with a year of intensive study looking into more cases, more information, and as we see every day, more and more opportunities to study that. host: is this the largest study to date of radicalization? guest: i have benefited from a lot of people who have done great research and similar studies in radicalization. i do not know if this one is bigger or if i have just compiled a bunch of them together. for me, the benefit is, before i had to do academic research, i have to do military research that gave me access to information that is not money available to academics. i was able to look at

classified reports as well as on classified data that came out from academic research. my sample size has benefited as a result but i cannot say that mine is the biggest or the best. host: you have also done research on the issue of child soldiers. how big of a problem is it, what countries specifically have this problem? guest: one of my distinguished colleagues at the institute of peace the some great work about children in conflict zones and how that prevents them from reaching adulthood. the complex around in -- conflict surrounding a young man is fundamental to his outlook in the world. we approached the research from two angles. you look at young men in conflict zones, what it does to

them, and i am looking at these young men of sign of conflict known to seek them. child soldiers it is a significant problem. they mostly stayed in their home countries and become a problem for their home country. host: cold water, michigan. pete on the republican line. caller: i have a couple of questions. i wonder what the colonel had to say about people who say the u.s. government was involved in 9/11? guest: i do not believe that. simply stated. the 9/11 commission published an

excellent report on that. people say a lot of things that i do not believe. host: have some of those views been expressed by these individuals that you have studied? guest: yes, there has been some amazingly skewed views which complicates the facts. we would go around to these afghan villages and show them a video to show them, this is why we have come. it amazes me sometimes to see people look at the video and say, that cannot be real. why not? because you cannot build a building that tall. they understood airplanes, explosions, they even understood

a little bit about america, into a degree, they understood what hollywood was. that must be hollywood because you cannot build a building that tall. that is a comic example of a common phenomenon that exists. they have been made to believe, that information that is simply not true. but they have been so encased in an isolated environment, completely immersed in a belief system, that it deserves reenforcing. if everyone around you believes something, you have to start to agree or you will not be part of the group. what you want is to be part of a group. as a teenager, you want to identify yourself, be a man,

like these guys. these guys think the margins did it, so you will probably start to begin that. if you do not start to believe that, you will have to leave the group. the detroit number talked about loneliness, not having any friends. once they are in a group, it is easy for them to keep feeding from that negative, and in some cases, false information, and come to believe it is the truth. host: madisonville, ky. go ahead. caller: one thing that no one has mentioned -- and i know people do not want to attack a whole religion -- but there have not been any norwegians lutherans doing this. what is the impact of

radicalized islam and the preaching of the radical mullahs? we have had a few timothy mcveigh-type of nutcases. all of this is coming from islam. i want to hear what you have to say about that. guest: that feed into one of the myths that this is caused by religion. we looked at these guys, and overwhelmingly, 80% of them came from limited religious education, and they grow up in a house that was observant but not dominated by islam. there are some people who did not know much about their religion, where it is practiced, but not overwhelming. if they were lutherans, name mty

be the christmas and easter-type of people we see. so they get these nuggets of radicalism put into it. these guys would have benefited from more religious education burleigh, as opposed to less, because that would have created less intellectual wiggle room. the other thing about religion, as it relates to my study is, religion is a fuel that can identify just about anything. look at the relief effort in haiti. on the usaid website, you will see that muslim charities, christian charity, jewish charities -- just about any charity in the world -- is working side-by-side for good.

all of those religions can support a belief that you ought to help your fellow man. each of them can also point to a time in history where it supported violence. the fringe element, the radical, skewed element of a religion came to the four and a sanctified violence on behalf of the religion. so religion is not the cause some much that religion is the accelerant. it pushes people in one direction or another. it is long were the cause, then there would note -- would not be any muslim charities. i see a lot of people on both sides of the argument using a dozen quotes out of 1000 pages of a religious text to say that that is what it is about. anyone who does that can make it

say what ever they want. but to label a religion, this is a religion of peace, that is a religion of hate, and so that religion should be banned, the other should be promoted -- that is misguided. the 2000 terrorists and i studied, they would not have been any different if they had a core religious upbringing in the launching a radicalized person to answer that skewed version in their head. host: north carolina. larry on the democrat line. caller: thank you. we have people on both sides. look at what pat robertson said about 80 the other day, that they were cursed. we have extremists on both

sides. -- haiti the other day, that they were cursed. the question i want to ask the gunman, someone had called in before -- and gentlemen, someone had called in before to say that 9/11 was an inside job. even the guy that they arrested in the philippines said that they were going to use airplanes. i wanted to ask, do you think that they said this will happen and we will let it happen so that we can go to war? . .

said speaking in an eloquent, often colloquial english, he and other imams offer a televangelist persuasive message of faith, purpose, and a way forward for both the young and uncommitted and worshipers

hoping to take the next at 2 g hiatt, officials say. specifically his role, but more broadly these imams. guest: their radical views out there. that one is probably one of the more effective ones because of his command of english and some other things that allow him to tap into young people who are frustrated. and i think the more we learn about them, the more we find that major hasan, a 39-year-old college graduate, dr. at fort hood, was very much like this 23-year-old nigeria going to school in london and that most -- both were isolated, and slid it, and confused. they did not understand how they were supposed to fit in the world so they look for something. ok, what we present as a

competing narrative? how do we present something to them that is an alternative if they are both looking for something. they did not know what they're looking for when they set out to find it and i found is radical and he said, let me tell you, i have the answer. i have the answer as to why you feel lonely, why you don't understand your place, what you could do to give your life meaning. and they said, ok, that's one version. where is the other version? they did not hear anything. they said, well, that is the only solution i have been prevented or that is the only solution that i can be comfortable with in terms of my culture and my upbringing. culturally attuned, culturally sensitive alternatives to the al qaeda message will go along way. to changing the way these guys approach al qaeda. host: specifically on major hasan, there is a headline.

should the army have done a better job seeing some of the signs? guest: i have been in the army since 1982. there has not been anything we have done where we did not look back and say let us see how we could have done it better. that is how we have become the army that we are today. that is how we will be the army we are going to be in 2050, is looking at everything we do and say, we could have done that better. as we look back and say secretary -- the commission figures out exactly what happens, as a learning organization, and the army is going to say, we can do better. we can do everything better. in this case, we are going to find things that we should have, could have done better and in the future we are going to do better because that is the kind of organization america's army is. it's a learning organization that looks at every event as an opportunity to get better. host: michigan, gerald on our independent line.

caller: i would like to s may be three questions. how, a al qaeda, they are not soldiers, they are guerrillas and they should be treated as such but they are not, they are being treated in civilian law. is it constitutional to use national guard as regular soldiers instead of using a regular soldier? why aren't the soldiers in correa rotated -- korea rotated with people on duty in afghanistan and other parts? guest: in terms of seeking a definition for al qaeda fighters, whether they are al qaeda soldiers or guerrillas or criminals, or whatever title you want to put on them and whatever resultant procedures

and policies in place -- criminals being handled in law enforcement channels and prosecuted in civilian courts or enemy combatants, their arguments on both sides. there are good arguments on both sides of that debate that don't matter to the young man who decides to join. he does not look at it and go, i want to be an al qaeda soldier or guerrilla or commit an international crime. in many cases, they look at it as an opportunity to do something they are looking for -- long-term organization they want to belong to, and how they are defined by us is not a significant impact on how they are recruited. how we treat them -- competing policies and thoughts. some great work and studies have been done into the way the british government treated the ira in the later stages of their

conflict in northern ireland when they went from being treated as lawful, that needs and later treated as common criminals and what lack of status that gave them as an organization, just a crime syndicate as opposed to a freedom fighting movement. so there is some legitimacy they were able to draw from being considered soldiers in a glorious fight and some negative the sides of being a criminal elements. on the other hand, there are ways that they can consider themselves to be outside of military activities that give them other benefits. there are compelling arguments to be made on both sides. as far as the national guard, i have been privileged in my career to serve overseas on multiple occasions and have never found myself to not to be with other members of the total

army -- the army reserve, the national guard, the active duty army, marine reserves, airmen, sailors, soldiers, coast guard men -- from citizen soldiers in the guard and reserve to full- time active duty. what i found this, they are all out -- including the ones who are spending a brief period of time in their careers overseas in korea and then finding they go from korea to a conus station and then deploy from the united states to iraq and afghanistan. that has happened as well. they go from an isolated court in korea where they don't have their families -- family with them, back to their family in a post in america and find out there in it is going to iraq and spend another year without their families. so i think the policies and army in terms of rotation and getting

everybody in the fight, there is more than enough to go around, being spread around pretty heavily. host: you are here in washington now. where do you hope or know your next assignment will be? guest: i am still waiting on the army to tell me how i can best serve the needs of the army. if that is in afghanistan, taking the research i have done and putting it into practice, if it is in the pentagon, taking the research i have done and knowledge i have gained and putting it into policies that allows the people in the ground to do better -- the great thing about being in the army, they will let you know, but they will not rush to tell you. i will know what my next assignment is going to be probably in april and be headed that way in june or july. bono's? it could be any one of the number of things. but i will get a job that lets me make it easier on the good

guys and hard on the bad guys where i'm. host: memphis. greedy, on the republican line -- grady on the republican line. caller: i wanted to ask him -- even in the urban cities of america, you have a gang problem. it is because of that absentee of the male, the father figure, in the home. how does this affect what i have been hearing this morning? is that something you can look at? i found out that leviticus 25 is on the liberty bell, and i never thought about it. host: we will get a response. thanks for the question.

guest:grady, the absence of a male role model is one of the things that makes the problem of youth gangs in america similar to al qaeda recruitment in the middle east. there is a great article in "the washington post" about a taliban suicide bomber who was thrown out by his father and came back to the village where he had grown up loaded with explosives and blew up some of his schoolmates and friends that were outside playing volleyball. that, to me, kind of encapsulates some of the whole phenomenon. a little the rejection by your father, some isolation and insulation, you fall in with a bad crowd that says, you need to do something about this horrible thing that happened to you. and on the other side, the competing theory. all of the young men who lived in that village could have gone either way.

and some of them had the opportunity to join a dues volleyball league that was well supported. the reason why it there were some deaths when that bomb went off was because the whole town had turned out to watch young men play volleyball in this new volleyball league that was there to give young men and outlet, a sense of belonging, a team to belong to. and one guy who had gone off and joined another team came back and he was the catalyst to destroy what had been bilked on the positive side. so you have the absence of a father figure, it figures prominently in some of the lives of these young men, even if it is just distance from their father. host: foreign policy magazine writing about the five men from northern virginia, how al qaeda do $6. it says, these men fit the profile -- no profile at all.

not it age, race, culture or education -- anyone can join or be adopted by the al qaeda network. the only prerequisite, willingness to accept the radical ideology. if there is a lesson to be learned by the recent arrests is that profiling will not work. we need something better. what would that something better be? guest: something better would be an emotional and psychological profile as opposed to physical and democratic profile. the come from economic pact -- all the economic spectrum, education spectrum, age and location. they share in common the sense of isolation, disenfranchisement and lack of belonging that those five young men exhibited that was not unlike what farouk exhibited before he decided to go bomb in detroit, some of the hard core central al qaeda, or 9/11

bombers, or others experienced. to physically profile them or demographically profile that is very difficult because they are all over the map. go further back in their development and cognitively, psychologically, emotionally they are very, very similar. host: pennsylvania, wilkes- barre. caller: i had a question of -- maybe they feel threatened in the foreign countries when the military moves in, and if the foreign troops would come into your home with their family and yourself feel threatened at this point and try to protect what you have, and would you expect yourself and your kids to may be stand up for what you have there? guest: i believe that the way our military bases overseas, the way that the government approaches its citizens has a lot to do with those citizens

attitudes toward the government or toward the military. so, absolutely, i believe that its soldiers come into your home and kick in the door and not all the chairs and speak angrily to everyone in the house and start ripping and roaring and tearing things up, you are going to like them much less when they leave as opposed to when they showed up. but if they come to your home and they sit with you and talk with you and i understand you and they get to know you for who you are, then when they come back the next time, they will be warmly received. and they may be warmly received with information about the people there looking for in the first place, the people that are doing bad things in the communities. absolutely. our approach to the population has to be one of dignity and respect. we treat everyone with dignity and respect. i think that is a hallmark you

are seeing throughout the theater now, is that you are seeing people treated with deputy and respect and you are seeing people respond similarly with dignity and respect. it is going to take time. but you see it happening in afghanistan and you see it happening in iraq and just about everywhere else. host: you are doing your fellowship of research at the institute of peace. can people read your work online? guest: american samoa yes, some of its posted online. we have a public event tuesday. there are a lot of great resources. a lot of wonderful things been at the institute of peace is the access that i have to some truly outstanding professionals and academics and researchers in the field who have studied conflict and conflict resolution for decades, in some cases, and the benefit from their knowledge. >> it is usip.org.

we will be back in a moment to look of the conflict that erupted last week between google and china. we will hear from robert knake from the council of foreign relations and take your calls. but first, a news update. >> an update on the situation in haiti. some 2000 marines are expected to arrive off the coast of port- au-prince today, joining of the 1000 troops already on the ground. also today, former president bill clinton, the u.n. special envoy for haiti, is expected to visit the country and read what -- meet with the present. the group doctors without borders says there is little sign of significant aid distribution and they at the airport were supplies are arriving is being poorly managed and food and medicine are scarce. meanwhile, on capitol hill, congress returns to session tomorrow. one of items on the senate schedule is a vote on nomination of federal reserve board chairman ben bernanke to a second term.

his current term expires january 31. a vote has not been held that because several senators, including independent bernie sanders and republican jim bunn and jim demint put a hold on the vote. harry reid is working with democrats to bring it to the floor. former minnesota republican senator norman coleman says it is too soon to jump back into politics after his loss to former saturday night live comedian al franken. he announced he would not run for governor, adding that a campaign would come too late to run properly and to early after his senate loss. those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> tuesday, your chance to talk to the authors of the best selling "dame of change." they take your questions of the 2008 presidential campaign and impact of the book on washington politics and policies, live, tuesday morning, on "washington journal." >> middle and high school

students, just a few days left to enter the of entercam contest. sen year 58 minute video. get it to c-span or your chance to win a grand prize of $5,000, $50,000 of total prize money and all the winning videos will be shown on c-span. be sure to up load your project by midnight wednesday. >> do you know one of the top three news apps for iphone or itouch is c-span -- c-span radio, c-span, and c-span2 and tabs with links to all of our podcasts, and it is all free and available from the app store. >> "washington journal" continues. robert knake is an international affairs fellow at the council of foreign relations, here to help

explain the dispute between google and china. texas back to the last week. what happened? guest: google made the unusual step of letting the world know they have been had, probably by the chinese or groups or agents affiliated with the chinese government's, and that target had been not only information on chinese dissidents who use google's products like gmail, but also their intellectual property and intellectual property -- property of up to 33 groups. host: 4 google, what would be the end result? what they take their business out of china? guest: that is what they are threatening to do. google has for three years, since 2006, have been in china and allow the chinese to restrict access to will search terms that they find objectionable. tiananmen square, june 4, tibet,

the dalai lama and google says they will no longer do that beginning immediately. host: almost everybody uses google here in the u.s. and around the world. it has different sites for different countries around the world. are other countries able to say to them that we want this input and what kind of content? users in the particular country like the uk or france. guest: there are other countries that will restrict their relevance search terms. like in germany, searching for nazi propaganda or buying paraphernalia like swastikas. it is a pattern to have some restrictions. but i think few countries have made the kind of investments china has made in restricting the assistant access to the

internet and restricting freedom of information. host: even though the access is restricted, one of a number of pictures of chinese not protesting but certainly showing sympathy for google. how is google viewed by most of the chinese? guest: china has bought about a third of the search market in china. there is a local chinese search company baidu that gets the majority of chinese traffic but google tends to attract wealthier, better educated, more influential middle class chinese in the major urban areas. google leaving the country will be a major loss for them because they rely on it to get more information through who will then they can through baidu or other companies that tend to be more in line with the chinese companies -- , as part of the interest. host: we will open up on lines

and you can tweet us with comments. we will get to your calls momentarily. what is the next step, the next logical thing that is supposed to happen here? guest: google and the chinese government is currently trying to figure out what the net steps are. trying to open up the google web site and no longer restricting such terms, that is contrary to chinese law. right now there is a discussion privately between google and the chinese government as to whether or not they will be able to maintain that site and maintain a presence in china at all. that is the next play for google in china. host: in terms of the u.s. government response, this article that says the u.s. plans

to issue an official protest to china over the attack on google. in article, their right that the planned actions: spot -- going spot -- coincides with a speech of the clinton is expected to deliver thursday. she is expected to allude to the issue -- how important is this speech and the administration's actions going to be? guest: i think there are two questions here. but google-china incident illustrates both of them. chinese internet censorship and the united states position regarding that. the other is chinese espionage, particularly economic espionage. the state department's first response, the demarche will ask what explanation of the hacking, can you help us understand how it happened and why it happened

and can you help us understand who carried out that. what secretary clinton will also do next week is make an announcement about how the state department is going to sponsor internet freedom initiatives, how we can, through aiding and abetting human rights organizations and net freedom organizations, chinese dissidents and other dissidents in iran, north korea, and elsewhere, gain access to the internet. host: i wanted to give folks some background on googled. it was founded in 1998 by larry paige and sergei brin and chairman of the board is eric schmidt, also invited to president obama. it has annual revenues of some $5.94 billion. how much of that income comes from china operation? >> very little, about 1%. they have about 300 million, i

believe, market share in china. that is not that significant. what is significant is china is now the largest internet market in the world. 360 million internet users and that number will double over the next decade, if not, sooner. by leaving this market, right now it is not part of china's revenue, it is a big part of the internet revenue they can expect in the future. they are also putting at risk the potential billions they can make in china in the phone market, with their new and wood platform. host: let us hear from viewers, listeners. detroit, charlie, democrats line for robert knake. caller: good morning, c-span, and good morning, a guest. global is basically a search engine -- google. they make their revenue with advertising.

searching in china is different from surging in india, searching and the united states, or in europe. it is what the searchers want to know. in china, they are not interested in your founding fathers, columbus discovering america. they want to know what they want to search in relation to their culture. you, young man sitting there, trying to bring old war phenomenon of divide and rule -- cold war phenomenon. so on and so forth. please, grow up. it is 21st century.

host: we will get a response. guest: i think the first thing to understand, technically google was operating its own site in china -- who will.cn -- google.cn. the reason why they decided to do that in 2006 because google.com website was often being blocked or censured, so they went into china and they worked with the chinese government to establish google.cn and they have been tailoring their content to the chinese market. i think they have become fairly successful in doing that, particularly within a coveted demographic eat that has got money to spend -- eleite that has money to spend and can respond to their advertising. host: democrats line. caller: i have been listening

since the early this morning with the martin luther king day and i have been tried to get in touch with you guys. basically just wanted to ask -- i do online school. i basically wanted to ask, how do you know that google is the only search engine that they have access to -- how do we know that they have not happened to something else -- hacked into something else and now that we got information early they know better than to answer -- mention anything. twitter, myspace, so many search engines that some young kids, older kids, elderly people -- i know i pay my bills and everything on line. how do i know that is going to be safe? guest: i think we mentioned at china's largest search engine is baidu -- yes, i think the caller is

asking really is did the best denies attempt target any other companies and our other on-line sites like twitter, facebook safe to use, and is who will say to use. i think the answer to that is we know in this hacking attempt, yes, there were at least 20, possibly 30 other companies that were targeted. the reason why we know this is when google found out they were being hacked, they hacked back and they want got to a server in taiwan that had the information from google, lockheed martin, american think tank and law firm and other companies. this incident, yes, it is widespread. more broadly, there is a consistent and evolving problem on the net on infiltration. it is not that easy to secure

these systems. host: reading a report that exposed shawm -- some problems with internet explorer in this attack. guest: what the attackers did is they used a previously unknown of vulnerability, zero day vulnerable would be to carry out an attack. so there was an error and a coating of internet explorer that nobody else knew about, but microsoft didn't even know about, and they used the bat like a doorway. host: i want to ask our producer to bring up of the google site in china. here in the united states we're able to see it -- i believe he tightened following gong -- falun gong. we can compare side-by-side. what we see and the one in china.

but the chinese cannot see google.com in china. >guest: that is correct. china has built what some people call the great fire wall of china. they have taken their portion of the internet and secured at the borders of a conflict of the content going in and out and limit it and within their borders the allowed things like google.cn, which they can directly control, or instead of -- instead of ebay, they have a local auction sites. that way there are able to, not only stop content from getting in but also to control the content that is produced domestically. host: copes bill, pennsylvania. marie on our independent line -- coatesville, pennsylvania. caller: good morning, america.

i think we ought to be careful talking about spying and sentenced in china -- censorship in china. we have that in our own government. with aid of verizon and at&t, spying upon americans do to the patriot act, weirdly named, i think it is the most unpatriotic act ever passed. also the silencing of the press and our country on the war -- in our country on the war in iraq, millions of us out in the streets and our press was afraid to cover it. any criticism of our government at that time was totally silenced. also we should be careful of google's reputation. what took them so long?

they have been going along. it because they got caught pirated books? host: marie, thank you for the call. she asks, what took them so long? guest: i think what took them so long as they had done a three- year experiment in china to decide whether they can make that market compatible with their company values. i think this was essentially the last straw for them when they realized the chinese government was not only censoring but breaking into companies like googled that had been cooperating with them, to steal information so they can further repressed dissent within their country. . sergei brin, one of the founders, he is from a family that fled the soviet union because they were persecuted for their religion so i think he has been, in many ways, the moral compass of google, and he

pressed very hard to say this experiment is not working. i think pat google can be defended going and originally. i think the three years they have been there, although they had restricted some searching, a lot more information has been made available through google than any of the website or poor poll in china. so there is a degree to which if google is completely forced out of the country there will be a loss for the chinese people. host: didn't yahoo accompli is a good, jerry yang in particular, come under heat cooperating with china in terms of business practices? guest: they did it. in fact, yahoo turnover search members -- search information that led to the arrest of a dissident. yahoo has since sold its stake to another company within china. they maintained some investment

but yahoo is no longer directly in china in that auction market because of that incident. and yahoo has stepped up and in one of few companies to support google in this protest against the chinese. host: let us give viewers and listener - comparisons of the two top search engines in china, baidu and google by revenue. you can see some of the other research as far well below that. robert is on our republican mind. well compared caller: good morning, everyone, and thank you for c-span. i live in silicon valley and i have been in china for six years working back and forth and also have been in the software outsourcing business.

one thing that is kind of ironic is of the investment money that started out about the -- alibaba actually came out of the investment companies here in silicon valley. there is a very large contingency of chinese software engineers who work at google, who worked at jocko. there is such an integration between china and silicon valley, it is almost like the same hands, if you will. robert, have you looked into this? have you really seen the reality of our american investment companies that have been arrested in china, who actually have duplicated, the google model? because that is what they are doing. guest: i think if i understand the question correctly, it is,

have i looked at the degree to which silicon valley and american investors have invested in china. yes, i think on the whole, china is a huge market. it is an expanding market and a very important market for our technology companies. in no way would i guess that -- which show a for bird pullout from other american companies. microsoft already did stood up and said, absolutely not, they are in china for the long haul and they will stay there and they don't see the benefit for them as a country or the chinese dissidents if they pull out. host: address the political issue. what sort of pressures does the administration feel -- what do they have to do in response? what would the administration do or what would congress what the administration do in terms of the finding -- defining u.s. business practices.

guest: there is a bill in the house right now that would essentially ban american companies from doing business and any country that restricted the freedom of the internet. so that, if you are a company that wanted to do business in china, you would not be the to acquiesce the demands that you filter search results i don't see that bill going -- search results. i don't see the boat going far. on certain issues, president obama has already raised that quietly and suddenly with the chinese during his visit -- subtly. i think secretary clinton will also raise the issue. i think we will see some support, not a secretary clinton policy speech for developing an anti censorship network that would allow chinese dissidents and the chinese public to get outside the great fire wall of china and able to access the rest of the internet uncensored.

i also think this creates pressure on the issue of sideburn espionage -- cyber the espionage. most of what we understand is the administration has quietly protested the chinese over certain hacking of government systems that they find beyond the pale. i'd think now the issue of target s because of intellectual property by the chinese is going to become a major issue. domestically over the last year, the president and his administration has not want to tackle cyber security. it took a year to appoint the czar -- any move could harm the economic competitiveness of companies like googled. i now it seems a little ironic. i did not the issue of cybe

security is going to become part of the obama administration's platform. host: travers city, michigan. caller: i appreciate the numerous fora become available on this call in show. a little bit on the disappointing side when i heard about google's willingness to acquiesce to the censorship as a condition of doing business in china. i believe it was something -- really quite a noble experiment, however, in retrospect and it and little more distance from it personally. really my question would be, for the gas, and perhaps for other callers -- for the guest, and perhaps other callers, it seems at this point of gold has now given a taste -- google has

given a taste of the freedom of flow of information, as being something that, if it goes away, that they will miss it and appreciate to what extent it could have been a free, uncensored opportunity for learning as the net really is. my question would be then, don't you suppose really as a matter of -- let us just call the world's six, -- 6, it would be a fine thing if it were to be the case if google were to hold the line, that would be a freedom loving and patriotic thing to do. but i don't want to introduce the concept of national patriotism here. host: will get a reply.

thanks. guest: i think google is acting in their self-interest in many ways by taking the stand. it is unlikely china will cave but i think it is very important for google and other internet companies to see the spread of the internet. there are about 1.5 billion, 1.6 billion internet users today. google can continue to grow at the pace it is grown but only if it increases, a larger population of the planet. . google need -- i think it needs to see an open and free internet. host: coral springs, florida, crystal on the democratic line. caller: i remember a few years ago when google first entered china -- tenements where, do not

be able to see the classic image. -- tiananmen square. it looks like the seventh most popular result of that phrase. i was wondering what the likelihood of the chinese using google finding the image prior to the restrictions. guest: i think that if you were a fairly technical savvy user, though not an expert, and you had the means, you could circumvent the great fire wall of china. you could do that through a virtual private network where he essentially you would encrypt your traffic out to a server somewhere outside china and the united states or europe and then from there you could conduct search engines.

the capability to do that certainly existed. i think most users in china just when not motivated to do that. it certainly was possible. the percentage of chinese internet users who avail themselves of those services, i don't know. host: robert knake, from the council of foreign relations, talking about google and china. about 15 minutes left. savannah on the independent line. caller: i would like to know what is the chinese people's reactions to the spirit and the long term future, what is it going to do to their access to information? guest: i think the chinese people's reaction has been fairly muted because news of this story has also been censored within china. certain populations have become aware of it, so we have seen some beautiful demonstrations of

users within china's love for google and the information they got from them. they laid flowers the front of the headquarters. since then, the chinese universities have banned that activity for the students and said they would risk expulsion. we have seen a lot of evidence that our people with in china, that in the community of users, who really do love the service. i think there is very little chance of the chinese government is going to acquiesce and say, ok, you can be in china without any censorship. but i think over the long haul, this issue will start to undermine and threatened the chinese communist party control over the country. i think since tiananmen square, there has been a deal with the chinese elite and the communist party, we will not ask for democracy, we will not demand

freedom like we did in 1989 and, as long as our economy continues to improve and as long as our daily life and our standing in the world grows. i think in this, there is a potential that some chinese eat are going to say, wait a second, you really are starting to impact our national competitiveness. we don't have freedom of information. if i can't google the same way as an american, that hurts me. host: what sort of a role did the summer olympics in 2008 have been sort of expanding the awareness of surges, information available? guest: in 2008, the chinese government did open a lot of portals but also put restrictions on their own people, so they were able to create something of a facade where foreigners traveled in, they had access to foreign sites

but a lot of the chinese population didn't. the chinese have incredible control over their portions of the internet. when there were riots in one region, the chinese cut internet access for six months to that entire region. we should not underestimate the degree of control they have over their internal web. host: "the new york times" reports that china restored text messaging in xiajian -- they continue to ease that six-month- old black out by restoring some text messages on sunday. next up, san diego, on our republican line. caller: i'm not buying this. google has been wretched but their dealings with china. they have been hand in glove and establishing the great fire wall of china. the reason google is reacting to

this intrusion is because their future revenue growth stream is going to be based on a cloud computing and that requires secure, in quick bit databases because it is going to being. they are willing to walk away from the billions they threw into the chinese investment because more billions are at stake in google. i cannot buying any of the spin. host: he used the term cloud computing. in your response can you explain what that is about? guest: it is the idea of instead of storing data on your desktop or server at your work, that instead you would start it up in the cloud on servers owned and controlled by a company like google or microsoft. it has a tremendous cost benefit and it also can really increase collaboration. and google has really been trying to sell these products

through their global enterprise. matt when no is heavily targeted. -- is this an been since google is raising the censorship issue? they're leaving china essentially as a red herring to distract from the fact that their systems were insecure and compromised. i don't believe that argument. the main reason for that is, one, google did not have to acknowledge to the world that they were hacked and had data loss. most companies don't disclose that, either publicly or to the government. in this case, googled did both. they informed the u.s. government and the fbi in september and this last week they went public globally with it. so, if they wanted to protect the reputation and security, the best way to do that would have been to have said nothing. host: michigan, back on our democrats line.

caller: morning, i just want to say go google, because i remember one might research -- microsoft went into china and i heard they were going to go along with not putting certain things on the search engine. i just couldn't believe american companies, especially microsoft -- they do so many good things. and to think that they were actually going to go along with this. and i feel the same way, i guess, about google originally doing this, but what they're doing now, i say go. i just hope they don't get hurt by it. i will stand by them any way i can because it is just wrong, wrong, wrong, for people not to be able to know things. host: runnymede, new jersey, adam on our independent line. caller: could you explain the green >> with a great fire wall?

i heard of it and i cannot figure out what it is. is your current speaker in member of the -- group or attended any of their meetings? host: great fire wall question. guest: the great fire what and the green escort there are two different -- brett favre what is essential -- the great fire wall, they took their portion of the internet, and at that point it leaves their country place controls on the routers so they can screen all traffic inbound and outbound through the country and eliminate speech that they find offensive, block websites and they find offensive, screen for pornography. grenn dam was a program they want it put on every new pcs sold in china, including those made by american companies like dell, h-p and abel and it

essentially would have been a center should technology on the desktop. it would have given to chinese control on basically any new desktop shoal -- sold. host: the user would not able to override? guest: user would not able to override. but it turned out a software had a lot of all abilities and it probably would have reduced china's cyber security overall rather than increased. host: robert, good morning, one hour republican line. caller: i would like to make a comment about the chinese. i am 81 years old and i am a korean that ran and i fought over there against the chinese. i can remember so plainly, they would send these korean citizens out, blowing their bugles after we had fired through them, here comes the chinese.

we didn't win korea because of the chinese, and we lost in vietnam -- the chinese. my brother was in vietnam. the chinese ran out of there. host: robert, thank you for the call. albuquerque, new mexico, john on the independent's line. caller: thank you to the korean veteran. guys like that -- we would not be freed. what does this have to do with them being able to ship goods in here? i know the state department got involved with the nike situation. shoe sellers were selling shoes made in the nike factories but they did not get their licenses through beaverton, oregon, and the golf manufacturers -- they would come out with an expensive set of clubs and they would produce the same, like coming

from the same factory with a generic name and sell cheaply on ebay or on other sites that come out of china on the internet. free trade of to be for everybody, not just these big corporations. guest: i think the caller is right, there is something related to these issues. this is, at heart, separate from the center should issue, the intellectual property -- censorship issue, intellectual property, where the chinese company, individual, or government perpetrating attacks against the american companies and taking designs everything from fighter jets to pharmaceuticals off of the company's servers, bringing it back to china and producing goods in china without having to pay the development costs themselves or without having to license the development.

so, i think it is a very much related issues. and i think on the whole the security of the supply chain it is something that will increase increasingly be important where we are importing goods from china that make contains by where, malware, that may contain digital cameras, fund drives, and other electronics that maybe compromise before even plug them into your computer and gotten them on the web. host: missouri, stephanie. go ahead. caller: my name is stephan. my question is, what is with all the covering of what they are doing? what are they trying to hide over there? guest: i am not a china expert, but my understanding is that the chinese government fears that

too much information, too much information on democracy, too much external influence, could destabilize the country and heard their power base. -- hurts their power base. a lot of totalitarian regimes have been afraid of the internet since it came on line. and i think in countries like north korea, they made the decision to completely restrict the access to the internet. very few people in north korea have any internet access at all and those that do, they can only go to a couple of websites in the country. china had taken a more open approach where they say, we see value in the internet and giving our citizens internet access, but on a limited basis simply because they want to maintain their power and maintain their economic growth without having any -- kind of popular revolts or democratic distractions. host: cnet news wrote a piece

friday or thursday about google's peers mulling their options. what are other considerations -- like microsoft, even now hope to a limited extent, what our other businesses considering now in the wake of this conflict? guest: i think a lot of people raised the issue of microsoft where it came out clearly saying it does not support google's actions and will stay in the market. the bing search engine that is not caught on venerable and china, i think google open-door for bing and it will make a heavy surge to be the number two behind baidu. i think issue for most american companies is not so much about what they sell and the chinese market or whether or not their

security is good enough to prevent their intellectual property from being stolen, and i think when the man looked at the mainland china operations they will be increasingly concerned about whether their intellectual property is slipping out into their competitors' hands. host: lexington, ky. are democrats line. make sure you mute. television. caller: good morning. i think you all had a guest on, a businessman who had moved his business to china, and inspectors were to come into the business and the workers were told they only work five days a week, 40 hours a day, when in reality they worked seven days a week, 24 hours a day, you know? and he