host: the intercollegiate studies institute put out this report, "the shaping of the american mind." you can take the test and also reach it through our website, c- span.org. richard brake is the chairman. thank you for your time. guest: thank you and stay dry. host: for tomorrow's program, we already have guests booked ribble talk with two members of congress. they are represented dan mathieu and we will talk about jobs and economic relief, health care and a variety of issues from either side of the aisle. also, tom schatz will be here with the citizens against waste. we are on every day at 7:00. enjoy the rest of the day, we will see you here tomorrow.

[captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] . . >> this is the scene today as the area is dealing with blizzard conditions. the national guard has been mobilized to help strandedñr

motorists. the u.s. house agreeing to postpone business, all legislative work until february 22ñ)r due to the weather. the senate hopes to gavel in tomorrow for speeches, we'll have coverage of that if they do come in on c-span2. our schedule, next we bring you a hearing on crib recalls. and then a discussion on the senate jobs bill. then a look at the quadrenall homeland security report. >> tune in to c-span2's book tv for a three-day president's day weekend. authors including henry paulson talking with warren buffett on the economic collapse. on "afterwords," talking about how the atomic bomb changed the presidency and the ror%÷ of the u.s. in theñi world. it reairs sunday night. all daymond, books on american

presidents. craig shirley on ronald reagan. for the complete schedule go to booktv.org. the consumer product safety commission recalled a half million drop-side cribs, following the deaths of three infants trapped between the mattress and the panel. they looked at the need for additional mandatory safety rules. they talked to several people including the parent of a child who died in a crib accident. >> our hearing is titled assessing the need for better oversight on crib safety. members will be recognized for opening statements, i'll begin. today we are hear -- today we

are here to answer a painful and difficult question. are we doing enough to protect infants and toddler in their crib. most experts say the best place forñi a baby to sleep is in a crib. babies sleeping on their back on a firm mattress in a crib is less likely to die from sids. as we will hear from witnesses, a baby crib is the only product designed expressly so that parents can leave their child unattended for a long time and the child be safe. it's reasonable for the parents to assume it meets safety regulations. the consumer product safety commission, the government agency tasked with keeping consumer products safe for americans, has recalled

millions of cribs in recent years after investigating reports of broken wood hardware and poor wood quality. what's most shking -- shocking is these cribs were all certified as meeting the voluntary safety standards. it raises questions about the current safety regulations and leads some parents to doubt whether any crib is safe. cpsc announced the recall of two million drop-side cribs, the largest recall in history and they announced another voluntary recall involving 635,000 drop-side and fixed rail cribs manufactured by durell asia. cpsc is prepared to meet the obligation of reviewing the safetism our hearing will

detail the recent crib recalls and consider how cpsc plans to prevent cribs with significant defects from entering the market. we willal-9 examine industries ensuring their products are safe and if crib standards are designed to keep consumers safe. a drop-side crib allows the parent to raise and lower the front of the crib for easy access to their baby as opposed to fixed rail crib which has four sides that do not move up or down. according to a juvenileñi products manufacturer association,ñr retailers sold approximately 500,000 full-size cribs in 2008, of which 15% to 20% have drop sides. since 2005, the cpsc announced 30 recalls of cribs for a variety of safety problems, many involving dropxd sides. cpsc experts found that paraness -- mattress support

brackets and hardware can break, deform or get lost.xd this allows consumers to unintentionally install the drop side upside down. manyñi things can cause the dro side to detach causing a gap between the rail side and the mattress. as this shows, in some cases the body of an infant or toddler can become trapped in the space and the child can suffocate. since 2007, the cpsc has issued millions of recalls. the cpsc has issued four recalls ofñrñr dropside cribs manufactured by simplicity after receive regular ports of dozens of incidents involving several deaths. in october of 2008, the cpsc recalled nearly one million delta brand drop side cribs.

the cpsc issued recalls in 2009 for stork craft drop side cribs for problems with the crib's plastic hardware. the cpsc linked fourñr deaths with the faulty cribs. in november, 2009, a recall involved two million crib the largest crib recall in u.s. history. the fact that most recalls involved cribs built in compliance with curn safety standards shows that our measures for enforcing crib safety is not working. a national trade association representing more than 250 companies certified that simplicity, delta and stork craft cribs involved in each recall melt all u.s. standards and voluntary standards. the jpma gave them their seal of approval. neither the mandatory nor voluntary standards were or are strict enough. jpma will be testifying at

today's hearing and i look forward to learning more about what the crib industry must do to improve its safety record. the cpsc acknowledged the mandatory and voluntary standards don't include adequate rimpletes for drop side crib hardware, the strength and quality of woodñi used to make theñr cribs and th utility and clarity of cribñr assembly instructions. i look forward to hearing about whatñi we can do to enforce stronger safety standards. first, what can congress, the cpsc, and crib manufacturers learn from thesei] massive recalls? and second how does the cpsc plan to address the ongoing safety problems with dropside cribs under its rule making authority. the cpsc has the legal authority to tackle this problem and restore american

consumers' confidence in the cribs. because of work of some members of the subcommittee, particularly congresswoman schakowsky, the act requires the cpsc to study and develop safety standards for durable nursery products, including full-size cribs. the act requires the cpscxd requires them to accept the current manufacturing guidelines and make them mandatory or suggest stronger ones. we'll hear from mrs. shiraglioni, who lost her son when he was trapped in a crib and suffocated. we'll hear from a representative of a safety

group started by a parent who lost their child. finally we'll hear from the chairperson of the consumer product safety commission. i want to thank all our witnesses for participating in today's hearing. in particular, i want to thank the shiraglionos for their time and traveling from new york to share their story with us. . we received documents from cpsc and jpma. they have been cooperative with che the subcommittee document requests and produced tens of thousands of pages of documents over the holidays. i appreciate their cooperation. in addition, the subcommittee requested documents from stork craft, a canadian manufacturer whose cribs were part of the

largest recall of cribs in u.s. history. they have pledged their support. i urge stork craft to cooperate fully and complete its production of documents promptly. they will not be testifying here today but we look forward to reviewing their submissions and reserve the right to hold another hearing to bring them here and explain their role in the recall process. with that, i yield back the balance of my time. i'd like to turn to a ranking member of the subcommittee, mr. walden of oregon. we've worked well on this one and i think we may have future hearings. greg, thanks for your efforts on this issue. >> i appreciate your holding this hearing and the work that both sides have done on this issue. i want to mention that i'm also scheduled to be in a telecommunication subcommittee markup session that's going on right now, we're actually voting on a couple of bills, i

may have to step out and go down to that committee and then i'll return. i want to extend a warm welcome to the family here, we feel awful about the loss you suffered. it's unthinkable. it's the last thing any parent wants to go through. you have our deepest condolences and sympathy. thank you for traveling here. thank you for telling us your story. we look forward to your testimony. i admire your courage and willingness to speak up and make a difference in public policy. the u.s. consumer products safety commission is charged, as you've heard from my colleague, with protecting the public from unreasonable risk of serious injury or death. thousands of products, infant cribs are one of the products under cpsc's jurisdiction and a major focus of that agency. the commission has acted in the past several months to recall millions of drop side cribs. today we have an opportunity to examine the recall process and

product integrity questions raised by the latest recall and understand the roles of the -- roles the consumer, company and others play in keeping children safe. our goals here today are first to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the curn system and second to discuss possible solutions to improve safety and oversight while allowing access to a wide range of products with think assurance of the public's safety. we'll also consider the astm international standards, specifically for crib manufacturers, released in december of last year. astm is an entity that develops technical product standards that guide the cpsc's evaluation of products. we'll bant an evaluation of whether the new standards will eliminate or significantly reduce the risk of injury. i welcome cpsc chairman tenen balm and look forward to her

statement. i'm curious to hear if they will adopt the new standard and if not, why not. i'm also interested in the matrix used to determine when consumer complaints lead to a full blown investigation and a recall. congress has not been inactive in increasing the effectiveness of product recall. the consumer protection improvement act of 2008 addresses several issues that bring us here today. ms. tenenbaum will be able to talk about the new authority of the commission they have under cpsia, including knew rule making procedures that allow the agency to revise its mandatory product standards more easily, new product registration programs and increases in the saget's budget. with the implementation of the early warning system, the cpsc

staff and previous commission leadership were already increasing their surveillance of cribs, bassinets and play yards. this helped trigger the recall of millions since that time. i hope the chairwoman will talk about this system and how it can be expanded, strengthened, and improved in the new system. since medical experts agree that the safest place for an infant to sleep is in a crib, what can we do to ensure the safety and make sure parents are not discouraged from buying a crib at all. we must work together to improve communications and quickly yet thoroughly respond to products that may pose a threat. communications and quickly and thoroughly respond to products that may pose a threat. i do hope as we move forward that cpsc will be able to maintain a strong level of collegiality amongst the five commissioners in a both republicans and democrats will work together to ensure that the

cpsc effectively and wisely uses its new and additional resources and authority to improve crib and product safety. thank you, mr. chairman. i look forward to the witnesses and again at some point i'll have to step up for this other marker. >> thank you. there is another hearing going on the first floor and members will be bouncing in and out. it is a mark of a market which means we'll have a voting committee. we may have to leave. i will stay and keep the hearing moving on. next, mr. braley for an opening statement. >> thank you. i can't imagine a more important reason to hold a meeting and we are today. as going up in the late 50's my parents had a drop-side cribs. as a parent whose kids are born in late 1980's i purchased and assembled at my friends all spent time in a drop-side crib crib. and to the cirigliano i want to extend our sympathy and appreciation for your courage and using this tragedy to teach

others about this danger. i can't thank you enough for coming down and spending your time to help educate us on this important issue. i'm very, very concerned about the recall, not just that these recent cribs but the millions of cribs that have been recalled in the last several months. and i believe we need to act immediately to ensure that all cribs sold in the united states be the highest safety standards possible. you've heard the number 635,000 cribs made in china and vietnam by jarrell is your recalled. this ride on the hills of the largest recalled two months ago. and this has been something that hits home for me personally because the most recent recall has been linked to the october october 2008 -- at a six -month-old infant in my state of iowa who was strangled after getting trapped in a jarrell asian crib when the drop side hardware broke. in addition to that tragedy, the cpsc received 31 reports of incidents involving the cribs including six reports of

children being trapped between the mattress and the drop-side and also receive 36 reports of broken flat durrell asia curve. having assembled the cribs 30 years after i was than one that the quality of materials being used in the script is much less than it used to be in terms of the wood product. and that's why we need to have a strong response to deal with this clear pattern of problems. in their statement to rail durrell asia meets all safety standards. if that is true this is one where clear indication that we need to act as quickly as possible to strengthen and enforce and. these deaths are inexcusable. they involve the most vulnerable members of our population and we have no excuse for not fixing this problem immediately. i'm glad to hear the cpsc has

taken initial steps to address the safety concerns for chris as mandated by the consumer products safety improvement act, which we passed here in 2008 in which this committee addressed in hearing. but i'm concerned about the length of time this is taking. i look forward to hearing from chairwoman tenenbaum above the additional status the commission is taking to improve and update crib safety standards. unfortunately, these crib recalls also illustrate the dangers of free and unrestricted trade with companies that don't have the same safety standards for manufacturing that we do in the united states. to ensure the safety of american families, we need to ensure that the countries we import products from rna level playing field with those that are manufactured here in this country, regarding product safety regulations. that's why as chairman of the populist caucus i'm working to make sure that future trade agreements include strong product safety standards and that products imported into the united states needs or exceed

u.s. health and safety standards. and i believe that the enactment of those provisions contained in the trade act would go a long way toward ensuring the safety of imported products including cribs. i want to thank you chairman said twofold in this important hearing. i look forward to the testimony of all of our witnesses and i hope this hearing will be an important step forward toward the prompt of the plantation and strong enforcement of the highest crib safety standards possible. i yield back. >> thank you mr. braley. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. chairman, we're here today because of a tragedy. it's a tragedy that we cannot reverse. maybe we can prevent future tragedies. i am profoundly regretful that for so long standards of the relates to crib safety have been voluntary not mandatory, despite more than 7 million cribs being recalled in the last five years.

one of the first speeches that we have a new commissioner at the safety commission, inez tenenbaum quickly noted that a great deal of product safety occurs by relying on consensus standards couplet with regulatory authority to intervene quickly. and she preface this by saying that they should need voluntary consensus standards. this makes sense for a new commissioner who has witnessed the aftermath of some of the mandates that were issued from the congress to h.r. 4040, the safety improvement act because we as a congress have yet to go back and fix some of the unintended consequences that we visited upon parents and consumers without act. however, that being said, the consumer product safety improvement act has beleaguered the consumer product safety commission. yes, we've improved their funding. yes we have improved their staffing, but i will play as one of the few members of congress was sent to the consumer safety commission and watched the good

men and women out there do their work, i will value that it is startling what the amount of work in the amount of safety which they are asked to assure the small staff in the rather primitive working conditions that they face on a daily basis. they don't have the manpower to implement the law. they don't have the finances and they are trying to make the deadlines imposed in the issues facing enforcement stay after sad to say and enforcement while trying to come up with solutions and the only real solution is congress going back and fine-tuning some aspects of that legislation and fixing the mistakes were made in that legislation was drafted. section 104 the consumer products safety act requires the consumer product safety commission to study and develop safety standards for durable nursery products, such as infant seat and for walkers and cribs. the consumer product safety commission could have either made mandatory existing voluntary safety standards are provided a stricter federal

safety standard in the consumer product safety commission will work to initiate rulemaking by august 2009 into more rules every six months until alterable nursery projects have a mandatory safety standard. but today toward the consumer product safety commission has only proposed safety standards for infant bath for infant bath seats and infant walkers, but not cribs, the source of 30 recalls. the crib issue is an issue a failure of those trusted by the american public to act during the last administration or the role regarding crib safety was being advanced. but the new administration came in and this rule has never been finalized. here we are here later. we see the same problems as we've seen before and really, mr. chairman, we have no one to blame but ourselves for not regulating not one single product, especially cribs. i yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you, mr. burgess. mr. green for opening

statements. >> thank you, mr. chairman. there have been 30 recalls since 2005, the largest such recall happened just two months ago with more than 2 million cribs recalled in november 2009. again on tuesday there was a recalls more than than 600,000 cribs. his major recalls demonstrate we need to do in setting safety standards for cribs in a testing enforcement of the standards. as a grandfather of four under age five i want to thank all of our witnesses today, but particularly the ciriglianos family for the loss of their child. it leaves a hole in your heart for your whole life. i also want to thank our consumer product safety commission shared tenenbaum for being here today. i look forward to hearing what actions it will take as reviewing the consumer product safety act of 2008. smt provides technical standards manufactures can follow amended

their standards or remove standards for what i've been one of the most dangerous types of cribs, a substance trip, make you any side crib noncompliance with the standards. there is a serious problem that these types of cribs do not address either by afpm or the cpsc has led to so many recalls because of the safety hazard they pose to children and incense. a child died due to malfunctioning septic skirt made by simplicity. the cpsc recalled cribs made by that manufactured that the dangers posed by drop site creator is not redressed. without knowing it, the family of the seven year old for the job site. on upside down and because of that they hinge on the rail broke and not allowed a gap between the mattress and the rail and the gap is for the child suffocated to death with their head against the mattress. this is not a unique problem

concepts is cribs but is not one specifically addressed until december 2009 with astm remove standards for this type of credit. seventy-nine now has the authority provided either safety improvement act to move forward and strengthen any regulations regarding crib safety and hope it's not just having standards but enforcing testing to ensure the unsafe cribs never make it into consumer homes in the first place. i'm also concerned about the secondary market for cribs whether it be through garage sales or resales. similarly, the car seats. you can buy them on the side of the road in houston that maybe 20 years old but it doesn't meet the safety standards. again, i want to thank the chairman fooled in this hearing and i look forward from testimony to eyewitnesses on what congress can >> thank you, mr. green. mrs. christensen, opening statement, please. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to thank you, chairman stupak and ranking member walden for holding this important hearing. becoming a parent marks the most important event in some

someone's lifer. as parents and consumers we trust that the products we buy are safe. we need to have that reassurance. however, we're here because some of those products are not safe, in particular, faulty crib that was resulted in injuries and deaths. i would like to add my word of welcome to the sirigliano family and extend my sympathy to them and for turning -- thank them for turning their tragedy into a campaign to prevent this tragedy for other families. we need to improve safety standards for every child and to ensure that they are meeting the highest of safety measures and providing safety to children in the manner they are supposed to be designed to do. i'd like tools extend a thank you to all the other witnesses for being here today and look forward to their testimonies.

>> thank you. ms. schakowsky, opening statement. i know you're probably at the other hearing, i mentioned your leading role in the act we just passed. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'm happy we're holding this hearing. this a life or death issue, the safety of cribs. attending hearings where we hear testimony from families of children who have died in preventable accidents is one of the hardest things i do as a member of congress but, of course, nothing compared to what it means to the families like the siriglianos, who must they are incredible courage to come here and tell us their stories so they can prevent these accidents from happening to other children. the consumer products safety improvement act has taken a lot of heat over the last year. it's true under previous

leadership, the implementation of the law was problematic and produced widespread confusion. but we can't lose sight of why the legislation was passed to protect children. children like danny kaiser, for whom the bill is namedñr and bobby, whose parents are brave enough to share their son's story today. for years we've heard stories of the horrible injuries and deaths of children in cribs and it's been menti].gó many time house literally millions of cribs have been recalled in the last few years no need to go through that again. i authored the provision in the cpsa that requires the consumer product safety commission to develop strict safety requirements. i'm concerned that there's still no rule for cribs and i

am eager to hear from the chairman, who i welcome today, about how we're moving forward on such a rule. i also want to welcome other witnesses including nancy coles a lead with whom i have worked for years on children's product çóñiñi mr. chairman, and yield back the balance of my time.ñi >> thank you. that concludes all the opening statements.ñi i'd like to call our first panel of witnesses now, robert and susan, if you'd come forward, there's a chair there. they are from new york and unfortunately and tragically they lost their son bobbie. it's the folcy -- their son bobby. it's the policy of this commission to take testimony

under oath. you may be represented by a lawyer. do you wish to be represented by a lawyer? >> no. >> raise your right hand, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? >> yes. >> i would ask for an opening statement. your testimony will be part of the record if you want to submit a longerñi statement, yo may. it's my udírstanding, susan, you're testifying. >> yes. >> would you pull that microphone forward and pressñi buttonçó the light shouldçó go . >> good? >> good. pull it up a little more. >>ñi we are robertñi and susan, also known as daddy and momny. -- mommy. we have only heard three of our four children call us that because bobby never got a chance. bobby was six months old when

his head was caught between the side rail and mattress in his crib. with his face pressed against the mattress, he suffocated. bobby was taken from his crib, put into an ambulance, arrived at the hospital and never came home. we miss bobby every day. what is most important is what bobby misses. bobby has an older sister who never had the chance to teach him how to get in and out of trouble. bobby has a younger brother and sister he has never met. he has two grandfathers he never played catch with, two grandmothers whose cookies who was never able to taste. he never had a chance to wear his first halloween costume, never got to sit on santa's lap and never blew out ap, birthda candle. our smiles have dulled and our family will never be complete again. other than mommy and daddy's arms, he was in one of the safest place, his crib.

the reality is his crib was not safe and our lives will never be the same. we refuse to allow other families to suffer the pain we have. the same. we refuse to allow any other family suffer the pain we have. while we are happy to hear about the millions of the crib recalls we are convinced the only answer is a complete ban on drop site cribs. we do not believe parents realize the severity of placing their children to sleep in a topside crib. the one place he would leave your child alone has become a threat. if they cannot purchase a jobsites spread they will have no option but to purchase a stationary crude. we do not believe a repair kit is the answer. if a credit has the ability to kill a child it should not be manufactured. the recall downplayed the number of children that have been suffocated in a drop site crib. our son, bobby, wasn't included in the cpsc reports. the reason for this is the location his dropside detached

as not the other infants. our problem is the investigator's report stated the bottom left real was not secure while bobby's realty touch lower right side. the point is the bottom left, bottom right, bobby was succeeded and died when the drop site real detached and he was trapped between the mattress and the side rail infants before and after him. the number of infants reported should not be determined whether the rail detaches but by the end result. we have in the last five months worked with legislation and sob suffolk county having a bill passed banning their cribs. we've worked with county legislation banning the sale of the drop site cribs and are awaiting the bill signing. we are currently working with rockland county legislation to have the ban passed also, which by the way it passed tuesday night. we appreciate cumbersome fighting us to be here today to share our story.

we hope you think of bobby oil to determine how to keep our baby's safe. we are all they have, their lives depend on it. thank you. >> mr. cirigliano, would you like to see anything at this time? okay. i take that is a no. thank you again for being here. >> thank you for inviting. >> we are going to have members ask questions, all right? let me ask this, in your statement he said our son bobby was not included in the cpsc report. the reason is the location of the dropside de tache was in the same as other infants. could you explain? >> we saw an interview on television regarding the manufacturing of all the crib's recalled. the chair person at that time was asked why bobby's death wasn't included in the recall and her response was because of the location of where his

dropside rail detach. specter's no doubt that the detaching was the cause of the suffocation, it was the location of it for the rules or the regulations? is that your understanding? >> yes. >> actually the recall crib, the manufacturer highlighted the piece that malfunctioned on my son's crib and that was one of the two pieces for the recall and we still would like an explanation for it actually. we never got one. the manufacturer put a picture on their web site of the same exact piece that malfunctioned on my son's chris also. >> did you report your son's def at ase cpsc product safety council?

>> they can to the medical examiner's office and inspected the crib. >> do you have any personal knowledge -- i don't mean to push on this. i'm trying to figure out because my understanding is reading the requirement to report so we really don't know how many deaths have been caused or the number of injuries. is there a requirement you know a report in cpsc entry to your son? >> i don't understand. i'm sorry. or we required to report it? i don't know -- >> your son went to the hospital where he died. then who has the responsibility to report sui effective information of the information >> the last thing you're thinking about this report and get to the cpsc -- >> i agree. >> but after a couple of weeks we've realized they came down and inspected the creek. at that point we didn't know

what happened. >> you say they can go on and expected the credit. the local officials? >> i'm not sure but there was a report, and actually there was some parts of the report that didn't make sense. the bottom right part -- the bottom right drop side was the malfunctioning side. they reported the bottom left, so that was wrong also. and also they said that they asked the medical examiner if they could come and interview us and they said the medical examiner said no, don't bother the family, that turned out not to be true. so i don't know there's a lot of stuff -- >> that is what we are trying to

figure -- >> we but like some answers -- >> i'm curious, too, because when you're in a situation like that the last thing that goes through your mind is to contact anybody coming you know what i mean? and i understand your question and it's a great question. from what i have on our cpsc report, they received their information from one of the newspaper articles. >> sure. >> that is a wonderful question. as a parent when you're in that position, the last thing you're thinking about -- >> or should the burden be on you. so where should the reporting -- >> -- local police department, you know, somebody has to contact. >> what we are looking for is a way to make sure the consumer product safety commission and public authorities have the most complete information on this product or any product. listening to opening statements, mr. braley mentioned one in his area. mr. green mentioned one. we have you and at least four deaths reported in 2009.

i get there were many more in 2009, but nobody knows because how do you get the information? who is required, what timely manner and then there's the escape clause if you will that you have to have reasonable belief whoever is doing the reporting that the credit is the one that was tucked away the cause of death and it's a way to say it really was in the product, it was something else. and in many of these cases it looks like a lot of times they say the parents did this wrong or the parents to have -- so that's why. and i don't need to push on you. i would expect you to know who reported to i'm just trying to -- connect we understand the chain of how it's supposed to get to its supposed to be. >> that concludes my questions. mr. walden? >> i think you've covered most of it, mr. chairman, very well. i guess the question i would have is do you think that the new system for reporting, the early warning system and all can be effected, is effective? i realize it wasn't in place in

your situation tragedy, but if looks like perhaps out of your situation and that of others they said okay, we have to fix how we collect these data and evaluate them and spread that out so somebody catches these problems quicker. are you familiar with the new early warning system? do you think it would have made a mick difference in your situation? >> there has been a lot of recalls from the early warning system. and, you know, basically the problem was one agency wouldn't know with the other agency reported and they couldn't get the data together. and put the similarities to get there. and i think that's a big step at the cpsc being taken. i think it's working. i think the big thing is to make

it mandatory -- a free sample crib needs to be tested. it shouldn't be voluntary and we all know that. the other big problem is these countries importing these cribs into the united states and, you know -- they are making them a lot flimsier, you can tell. the plastic spurring pages have been a big issue. it's a free quarter inch piece of plastic that's supposed to hold the side real up and back in the day to use to make them out of metal. they are trying to make -- they are making a cheaper product, and that needs to be tested. every single credit needs to be tested. >> the new standards coming out or came out against the recommendations in december of last year. have you had a chance to review

those? astm standards? >> i haven't seen them. >> i realize you probably had other things going on in your life, too, than this but i can understand this is such an important issue but i would be curious to get your feedback on the astm standards, because i think the address some of these issues at least. thank you, >> i want to follow up onñi the point you just made my recollection of the crib in my family for years was as you described, the quality of the wood itself, you could have run a tank into it and it wouldn't have collapsed. i've assembled a lotçó of consumer products and apply a lot of torque to make sure they are properly tighten and yet i remember the one i aseemabled even though it was on wheels and añiñi hardwood floor, there a flimsyness to it in the way it stood there that i don't

remember in the one my parents owned. as a parent, can you share with us where bobby was in the number of children you had? was this the first child you had this crib for? the second? the third? tell us a little bit about that? >> we had the crib for my daughter, and at the time she was -- my son started using it, i guess, three years later. we never took the crib apart. just, i remember putting it together, i, you know, you try to tighten everything down as tight as you can. when you go and buy a crib, they have all these safety labels on it, maybe you have a false sense of security and at that point, we never realized that there were all these problems with these cribs.

it wasn't out there. if it was, we would have never bought one. >> i think that's a very important piece here. and congress' voice is going to be huge in this. getting the word out to everybody that has these cribs, they could be in the garage, up in the attic, and they go to bring it back out for a newborn in the family, they need to throw those out, they're no good. i think the voice of congress is going to be huge in this. out. they are no good. and i think the blease of congress is going to be huge in this. >> mr. cirigliano, i want to talk to you about the safety certification on the cribs in the marketplace because a lot of parents, a lot of young parents are constantly trying to educate themselves about product safety. they want to buy products that are going to take care of their children. we've seen information in preparation for this hearing

that invented secret unit is one of the few devices and infant use is where you expect that child to be safe, absent constant attention of the parent. that is the underlying premise for having the crib so you can go to sleep yourself tonight with a confidence that child is going to wake up healthy and alive in the morning. so, one of the things we know is most manufacturers who sell cribs in this country use this certification, meeting voluntary safety standards through the juvenile products manufacturing association that the certified with fi seal on the product that it's been tested by independent labs and meets all current and mandatory voluntary safety requirements and if you look appear on the screen i believe this is the seal that is used. is that your understanding? >> yes. >> was described that you bought for your daughter originally and was used by bobby, did that bear the seal?

>> it looks familiar. i'm not sure exactly but i know it had to seals and that is one of the things we were looking for when we went to purchase tikrit. >> when you look for that and see it on there as parents what does that say to you? >> it's safe, it's been tested. >> it gives you a sense of security. >> what is surprising to learn the cribs involved in the latest cpsc recalls were certified by meeting all applicable safety standards? >> it wouldn't surprise me, no. >> in your opinion as parents who have purchased this product, what value does the certification seal have to parents? >> now or when we purchased the eckert? >> now. >> it has no value right now. >> why is that? >> we've been doing a lot of research and it sounds like you're looking at millions and millions of cribs that have been

recalled and the reasons for the recall just little pieces of plastic and springs, how long is a spring reliable. >> are you talking about a spring and plastic piece the durham exactly for you use in a big pan. it's basically the size of what it is and how long does it in the last? i would think a majority of families do not go out and buy a new credit every time a child is born. most families by one critic and use it through the length of all of their children. >> i couldn't agree more and mr. chairman, i hope we will use this as a way to identify and improve the safety certification process to protect the rights of consumers and safety of infants and i yield back. >> thank you, mr. braley. mr. burgess for questions.

>> thank you mr. chairman and thank you both for being here. i think you've already answered this with mr. braley but this was a kid he had purchased new yourselfs? so this wasn't a hand me down, this is one that you had? >> yes. >> did this could end up on a recall list? >> yes. >> how did you receive the notice of the recall? >> bye watching television. >> so it was after the fact? >> right. >> now, i think mr. cirigliano, you referenced this the way the data is managed and collected is obviously critical and the cpsc is trying to build a registry. so clearly the would be something the would be helpful, and yet i get the impression from listening to your testimony that with love drop site design that even the registry is insufficient. it's the design itself of the

drop side; is that correct? >> that's my belief, yes. >> and yet, the drop side is presumably developed at some point because someone thought it would be worthwhile to save wear and tear on mom's bac as the baby gets bigger and bigger to be able to change and a tanned and move in and out. so, there may be a trade-off that the same time it ought not to be safety and the thing that we tradeoff, and i agree with mr. braley consumers need to be informed about the potential danger of the drop side if that indeed is what they are going to purchase. there are advantages but there are disadvantages as well. do you think if the cpsc have a registry when your crib was recalled do you think that would have been helpful to you all? i'm worried we don't get the word out. you got the crowd knew so if there were a warranty card you return door website you registered that is one of the things we struggled with when we

get 4040, to begin prove that act on the consumer product safety we did a year or two ago. but i will tell you i'm not do that with the warranty cards an ira member cribs from when my kids were little, my wife's that got a clip from the attic from texas and that was the crib a couple of years and then it went on to its next life in another -- her sister's home for awhile and i don't know where that is today but it's still probably in circulation out there. i don't know how if that critics were on a recall list i don't know how the folks would ever know. where that becomes important in the resale industry, the good will, the christian community action stores in my district that do great work for providing low-cost products to young families who don't have the wherewithal to buy new products, how do you get that information to them and that is one of the things we struggled with when we get 4040, and i guess listening to you today it would be if a

resale shop has a drop side credit it would be circumspect whether they go ahead with the every sale to another family because at least the more recent product manufacturer has left you feeling that there is going to be danger involved in that product. am i overstating that? >> i agree. there's definitely going to be danger. that's why we feel like the ban is important and we've been doing a lot of media and word-of-mouth. i am small but i have a large mouth when it comes to this and i make sure every person i talked to -- and sometimes i feel like being a little hurtful to the pregnant mom i'm walking up to by explaining my story to her, but i think that is the only way to get it out there. >> let me just ask you, and you heard my opening statement about whether or not the safety standards we believe corps volunteer reform mandatory. do you have a feeling about

that? should the standards be voluntary? >> i think they should be mandatory. >> and the last question, again you already answered it, what would you fix about the drop side crib, you would fix it by not having it, probably fix it with an ax. >> we say we would break them, burn them and throw them away. [laughter] >> i can't even tell you the crib my kids were in, it was probably manufactured in the 1930's and like mr. braley's experience, i mean, i tried hard to destroy it sitting in the back of the u-haul over several moves. [laughter] and that thing was, i mean you just couldn't destroy it. i feel we have to be careful how we proceed. mr. chairman, we got into a lot of difficulty with unintended consequences and we did the 44 a bill. i've got motorcycle dealers in my district who are banned from selling them in case the cade eats the battery he can get

poisoning. that's ridiculous and we haven't gone back and fix that so i do want to be careful of the same time. here is a problem. i have got a list of recalls going back to the 70's. to million in 2009, 1 million into thousands of men, 104,000, 6,097, 1,006,086, 70,078, clearly there's a problem we need to solve. i will yield back the balance of my time. >> thanks, mr. burgess. most people don't eat batteries so i don't think it's really necessarily be law but the way that we apply it, and that is the reason for testimony the cirigliano's and suggestions i agree the application of law we passed is in the best by any administration. and it's part of rubber job to make sure they are done. mr. green for questions please. >> thank you mr. chairman. and hitting both from congressman braley and, chris mann burgess, when our now it

will be 5-years-old when she was my daughter was expecting, i went to the attic and got the crew for our children which was the 1970's and my wife explained to me very quickly they were too far apart and instead of putting it on the curve i took a sledgehammer to meet so nobody else could use it and that is will bothers me i guess because i was trying to use them from generation to generation. that doesn't work. our grandchildren actually stay in a pack and play. the seven month old and used in the past week, the parents actually put the rail upside down. did you have problems with instructions -- having put together lots of stuff, it sometimes is real difficult and don't torque it too much because you might have to take it off and put it back together again. did you have problems with the instructions? >> ipod primero having problems with the instructions, but the

one thing i felt odd was our instructions were on the mattress board. that's the board that is put under the mattress. so you are actually putting the instructions in place and then i just remember -- it was just the odd's thing and to this day i can't believe that was. it wasn't a piece of paper, it was on the magers board -- >> at least they would make it on the upside so you could read -- >> it was pretty bizarre. that's another problem. >> -- the need to make sure that one, they are easily readable but also common sense-why is that you have it and again for the loss of your child, like to say, we have had three in the houston area over the last few years. >> we know. >> it is a tragedy. i yield back my time, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. greene.

ms. schakowsky for questions, please. >> i will pass on questions. but i just really, really want to thank you for informing us with what is probably the most compelling testimony of all, and that is your personal experiences, and your advice. i think right now there is some voluntary standards about not having any drop side cribs. we want to make sure they are eliminated from the marketplace. so no one else has your experience. and i admire you for giving up to pregnant women. that may be the most important piece of advice they get during their pregnancy. and, you know, being pushy >> ms. sutton for questions, please. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you very much for your testimony, for soming forward today. we're so sorry for your loss

and -- mr. chairman, i want to thank you for holding this hearing because you know, it's clear with millions of cribs being recalled because of problems with drop sides it's time for the cpsc to take action to protect the infants and address millions of parents' concerns. we have a responsibility to act to ensure that patients can lay their infant down without fear in their crib. i'm deeply concerned, also, that when we hear about problems, oftentimes products that are recalled were manufactured in other countries and it's unconscionable when companies and importers pay more attention to costs than to our safety. product safety has to always be the primary focus. parents, as i said, should not have to worry about laying their infant child in a crib

and being exposed to grave danger. while we're happy that recalls advise parents, but it's after the danger, you know, is present and identified. the products need to be safe when they're manufactured and put on a store shelf. mr. chairman, one of the reasons why i appreciate this hearing and your testimony also is that it sort of draws attention to this problem where we have products coming in that consumers assume are living up to our safety standards andçó they may not even know that it's impossible to subject foreign manufacturers to u.s. law. nd i'm going to be introduci6g manufacturers legal accountability act to protect american consumers and /ñt products a

consumed in this country are safe for consumption. thank you for your testimony, we are very sorry for your loss but thank you for being here. . for your loss. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> thank you both for being here. thanks for your testimony in helping us understand the issue more. we are going to continue this hearing. you are welcome to stay if you would like we are discussing now. thanks again and thanks for working with us. >> thank you. the next panel of witnesses on the second panel, we have michael schweiker, executive dirk of the manufacturing

association come forward. it is the policy of the subcommittee did all testimony under oath. please be advised you have the right under the rules of the house be advised by the council during your testimony. do you wish to be represented by counsel? >> nope. mr. plater, miss cowles? both indicated not the master to raise your hand and take the oath. do you swear or affirm the testimony to be the truth, the truth and a matter pending before the subcommittee? >> i do. >> let the record reflect both the witness answered in the affirmative. they are now under oath. we would ask for an opening statement of five minutes if you have a longer statement supporting documents we would be happy to make it part of the record. pull the microphone up and pushed the button. thank you. >> good morning. >> ranking member walden, let me thank the committee -- >> i don't think the mic is on. try again.

>> that's much better. what we see through the house subcommittee on oversight investigations for holding this important hearing on a curb safety and giving the opportunity to principate. i have a much lengthier statement which i believe i've already submitted so i will read very briefly for a shorter statement for this purpose. kids in danger is a nonprofit organization based in chicago the decade to protecting children by and provincial friends product safety. as congresswoman schakowsky mentioned we were founded in 1990 after the parents -- by the parents of danny, killed in a portable crib at his child care location even though the home had been inspected days before the crash had been recalled five years earlier and had already killed four children, and yet there was no publicity, no one knew that it was recalled in that home. and our mission is to prevent this from happening to other children to promote the development of safe children's products, advocate for children and educate the public of these important issues. and i think it has been said the

crowd dispersed and foremost a safety device. critics are the only true friends product that is made to leave a child unattended so as some as said you can get a few hours of sleep yourself. the concerns of this issue are not new. crib durham of the, strenuous testing, hardware failure, assembly problems raised and almost every one of the voluntary standards incidents i've attended since i joined that body in 2001. yet there has been until very recently little or no change to the standard for years. the mandatory standard has been stuck even further back in time to read any changes were made to the voluntary standards even the final safety message to the commissioner of banning corner posts does not appear in the current federal standard. the failure of the voluntary systems adequately protect children is what let congresswoman jan schakowsky to chris introduce the legislation that's not in the cp is like a calling for the mandatory standards and third-party testing back in 2001. had we done it then we may have

a different outcome to the story here triet citizen the problem wasn't known. rather it is cpsc lacked the authority and in the factors lacked the will to strengthen the standards. now with a statutory requirement and the vehicle we will be seeing a strong standard. as has been mentioned since september, to the essence of an over 7 million chris sefton recalled by the cpsc. most were tested to a voluntary standard and certified by the juvenile product manufacturers association. many were recalled for hardware failure, a drop site failures, but some were recalled for clear violations of the mandatory standard. they were painted with lead paint or simply did not meet the required to mention. if the manufacturers are making claims that don't meet the standards that can be confirmed with a tape measure and lead tests what then how can we expect they can be safe in terms of designed to keep babies safe and attended? this current situation leads parents in a horrible position. we often get calls from parents

asking for advice what to do, especially as they hear of these recalls. we can be of limited help. we can't say to look for the jpma label since all the recalled cribs were certified to that standard. we can say to stay away from the drop side christa there's also incident with magers support, hardware failure and crib slats. the only thing always want is for parents to get the idea that other places are safer for their babies and eckert. babies are safe in a secret and that is why this is urgent that we solve this problem now. let me briefly talk about consumer use of cribs. parents will it is a crib for more than one child. they will pass them on to their sister or their friends and sell them second hand. it doesn't mean it's a 20 year old could they are passing on. it could be a two or 3-year-old crib. we can assume someone spends, you know, up two at thousand dollars on a product they are not going to use it for two

years and then throw it out. it is not consumer miss us when eckert is assembled, taken apart and reassembled more than once. in addition to military families, i was an air force brat myself to move frequently, other families living and many parents of the a price of their doctors start with the crib in their bedroom and then move to the child's bedroom later on. in these tough economic times, and in the midst of a growing green mind set, manufacturers should expect that this is what will happen to their products. they will be used for more than one child or even more than just two children in a row. if tikrit can't handle being reassembled, it shouldn't be sold. if the crib falls apart, losing screws or the little safety plugs or has a drop side that once did, parents are going to try to fix it. they are not engineers and they do not clearly understand the risk of that action. we need to give parents a crib that lasts, hardware that doesn't fall out and clear instructions on how to use that product. we are glad that the cpsc is finally moving to a strong

mandatory standard in our written statement we have a lot of suggestions for that. but i would like to begin talking this assembly. far from seeing them as simply as a consumer use product problem i would assert that products decided such a way that parts can be assembled in more than one we including ways that lead to death is a design problem and not consumer misuse problem. as i said, have specific things, but i would also like to just mention the public consumer incident database that the cpsc is working on because i think that will also be very important for the safety. that we parents can get the information themselves if they are about to buy a creek or have a problem with their credit they can find other people have the same problem so i applaud the cpsc for moving ahead on that. second, i have something i would suggest for this committee and that is the big problems of recall effectiveness. the crabs are in and out there when they are recalls of the 7 million kurds recalled more than half of them are probably still in use. we need to improve the recall effectiveness. one way you can help to that is

to require the cpsc to report to you annually on their recall effectiveness for each of the recalls preach manufacturers required to file a monthly correct action report that says how many consumers have contacted them, how many products that replace or fixed. if that information was public, right now it is a very difficult process to get, i think that alone would make manufacturers work harder to get those products out of use. again, thank you so much today. i appreciate it and i would be happy to answer any questions. >> mr. dwyer, your opening statement please, sir. >> good morning, chairman stupak. ranking member walden, i appreciate the opportunity to testify about krin safety. the timing of the hearing is fortuitous. my former colleague and i spent two days at the cpsc is a lot of the voluntary standard for the full-size krebs which the cpsc is open to promulgate later this year as a new federal standard. we've long advocated the adoption of the more expansive at 1169 as a mandatory federal

standard. at the behest of chairman tannenbaum, the juvenile products manufacturers astm and consumer out a cigarette worked with the cpsc technical staff to update the cpsc crib regulations. this will making comes on the heels of similar rule making for infant walkers, bath seats and upcoming rules on toddler beds and bassinets and cradles. the rules are all occurring pursuant to section 104 of the cpsc passed by congress in 2008 with extensive input from the full committee. jpma will continue to work collaboratively with all the stakeholders towards our common goal of promoting the safest and most effective juvenile product safety standards in the world. our members produce products that help prevent injuries to our children while tragic accidents often occurred or may occur these products save many lives. as an example, try and become a child restraint seats save an untold number of children's lives in motor vehicle accidents. some will become eckert sell pledge your children are released safely to sleep. jpma offers a program to

benefactor's willing to have their products tested, to the astm standards like the third party cpsc lubber three c's predators the vacation program was created in 1976 when manufacturers approached the association of setting it on to receive the standard for high chairs. that has evolved but it's still in effect today. since then, jpma has covered 19 additional products with two more pending. astm some of the largest poultry standards organizations in the world over 22,000 members world wide. astm standards are developed on a consensus basis by all interested parties. any reputable stakeholder can join the standards to limit committee and vote on all aspects of the standard. every standard development committee member with a vote can influence this process. for years, astm asra to one of the consumer advocacy to the karadzic to see keeping bbc and kids in danger on the development of a variety of juvenile products standards. including the full-size eckert standard. the first federal full-size eckert standard was promulgated

in 1973 as we heard earlier and astm developed the first standard in 1988. the 13 standard fully incorporated the federal standard and at numerous performance testing requirements including corner post height restrictions and additional warning labels and instructional requirement. since then it has been modified all times to address the emerging hazards including last december's modifications which eliminated the traditional jobsites and established credit to the colcord testing procedures. at 1169 has been extremely effective. during the 2007 hearing on the cpsia, the test but to 89% reduction in fatalities due to a solution and effectiveness of the voluntary standard. the federal standard has been updated once since its inception 37 years ago. the cpsc relied on the astm standard as the best role for promoting currency in the marketplace. jpma your vacation program provides consumers the best regional the crab meat with mandatory and voluntary standards. here's how the program works.

the manufacturer must apply to participate in the program and agreed to have all of its models and product category tested to the applicable astm standard. we do not test products ourselves nor maintain our own standards. jpma relies on exports at independent third-party cpsc let to verify compliance that the applicable astm standard. jpma has never used or promoted his own safety standards to recall products including full-sized curbs bearing the jpma certification logo must meet all parts of the applicable astm standard. achieving compliance is the beginning of the manufacturers obligation on the program. many factors must submit to ongoing testing. this testing ochers quarterly ferc least 25% of models so that all models are tested at least once per year. in addition, an independent third-party cpsc accredited laboratory pulls the products at random from retail shelves and tests the products for compliance. jpma as part of our role in promoting safe because safety for the vulnerable segment of the population. according to the first candle

one of the nation's leading non-profit organizations, dedicated to safe pregnancy and survival of babies through the first years of life, there are about 4700 incidents each year involving infants sleeping in fireman's, at least 80% of parents and caregivers putting their children in an unsafe place outside the crib. a properly assembled a full functional astm crib remains the safest place. unfortunately tragic accidents can occur. with improperly assembled second use or heirloom cribs. we believe that your information and education can reduce these fatalities involving missing hardware or improper or reassembled cribs. that is why society because the 19 designated safe sleep is the theme for the safety month for a piece which takes place in the ninth month of teacher. jpma is working with cpsc, retail partners and interested consumer advocacy groups to promote safe crib assembly and safe sleep practices. jpma welcomes all efforts in this regard. again, thank you for the opportunity to appear today.

>> thank you. questions for the members. is cowles, let me ask you come in your statement, and explainable but more on page two and going to the top of page three, you talk about the corner post in effect but if you mentioned the corner post of the cribs. and then you go on to say, the top of page three of the same time demand for standard has been instructed in time as well all the changes have been made to the voluntary standard even the final safety measure of banning corner posts on krebs was integrated into the astm fall/winter standard doesn't appear in the federal standard. so it was mandatory and now it is voluntary? >> it was never mandatory. it's always been in the voluntary standard. they first started -- as mr. dwyer mentioned the standard was passed in 1988 but the start of working on it in 1984 after unfortunately another child named danny died when he struggled on the corner post of his bed. r)@ @ @ @ @ %

pr1eñrw%uldn'tñi takeñi itñi b tçóñiçó cpcs would probablyçóçó itçó butñrçó yx:u could try toñ it. 4+ itçó doesn'tçóñiñr violate theñc mmqpáory standard? >> right.ñiñrñr >>ñiñ;let meñiñr ask you theñrñ productsñiçóñiçó mandato@yçó a >m tho children you2anl rememberñrñr theñr certification as youñr seffed testified and there is something thatçóñiçóçó certifiei product,ñiñi meetsñiñiñiñ)hp&lñ standards as well as >> that is correct. >> the jpma encourages members to use the seal of approval -- i think we had it on the board there at one time -- and they are advertising to show consumers that they are speed --

jpma certified. this ad i think is on tabby 11. if you want to look on the book in front of you. in this ad, jpma ran several magazines for new parents. this says and i quote, quote could be confident the juvenile products are designed and built with safety in mind." what is the safety in mind mean in the and? >> parents can be assured the products that we certify meet the applicable voluntary and mandatory standards for those products. >> okay. >> in a way it would be safe to say your certifying of the curve as being safe and? >> we are verifying that the manufacturers who meet at astm along with all of their stakeholders to discuss incident data, that is used to drive the activity of the committee. and if there are issues related

to a product concern that they address those and incorporate those into the standard and that the manufacturers meet the standards. >> so what you are really saying is we've met all the standards. this product meets the standards whether voluntary or mandatory; right? what they're fleeing safety just that the standards are met? is that what we are seeing? >> we believe by meeting of the standards of the products are safe and that manufacturers take into account certainly the safety of the ultimate customers, they are babies when they built these products. >> the ad goes on and again i want to quote it says body may jpma certified product in any of the below category center was the product has gone through an extra set of rigorous testing. or the past several years and we've heard testimony today the cribs involved in some of the largest recall simplicity, delta, storch craft, they all earn the jpma seal of safety certification. so my question, mr. dwyer, has

jpma changed the certification for the program in light of the recalls we've seen and infected and tuesday we had one of 635 cribs. have you changed the certification that would be found in this ad? >> to make sure everybody's clear the certification is a verification that they meet the standard. >> correct. >> as the standard changes the certification changes in much it is a verification of the standard. i'm not sure i understand -- >> i guess the recalls started in 2008 and 2001, sport craft had two big recalls. of the standards changed? >> the astm standards? >> yes. >> the standard changed with a recent change in december that would ban the drop side and also had an integrity test in the requirements to the current standard as well. in december of 2009. -- when you certify now, when you run this ad, that means that the slat has been changed, and what is no more drop side,

right? >> it terrifies the groups meet the standards however the certification program does allow for 180 days suffrage propose that we will suffer defeat does certify six months after it's been implemented. >> when is the six months of? >> it will be in june, i don't the the exact date but i know manufacturers at this point to move products out of the marketplace, they are no longer manufacturing the jobsites products. >> but just so we are clear we have until june so there still could be drop side crib's right now for sale with ravee jpma sprick certification because they have until june, 180 days? >> that is correct. >> i guess my time is up. mr. walden, questions? >> that would be on less the cpsc recalls that. >> that is correct. >> that would be the only check then, if there is an identified problem and the cpsc get stat income issue a recall and take

those out of the marketplace, but the parents may still have those credits, legacy chris if you will. >> that is correct. >> as your quote in the press saying the problem existed for ten years and nothing has been done we are glad to see it is not a crisis and people are acting. t want to talk about '? >> sure. >> nothing has been done in ten years? >> i sat on the astm committee since 2001 and there's another members on the committee before that. in those meetings the same issues we are talking about today, the same issues we talked about the last two days where we actually finally made real progress such as putting in a test in canada during all that time, it subjects the credit to much more vigorous shaking and testing much more similar -- to a child might do. and we have asked repeatedly since 2001 to add that test to the astm standard and was never added. >> so on the astm standards --

in your committee i am not sure how that operates. how many members are on that committee? >> mike might know better than i do. i would say around 50. >> i would say actively purchase of hitting its least 50. stomachs of 50 members, 15 that we participate? >> 50. 5-0, correct. >> during the period you then on and this has been floating around, have seven recommendations come forward that he voted against because they are not strong enough? >> yes. as one of the sometimes three sometimes for consumers in the room out of the 50. our votes on fortunately did not go far. >> couple of follow up on that? i mean, and again i don't -- i'm not representing astm. they are not here a table laid to participate in the problem as nancy does and anybody that purpose of its and the problem has the opportunity to to cast a negative vote on any ballot and if that ballot -- if the argument is found persuasive for the astm process that can be

upheld and modifications can be made to the ballot before the final rule was issued. >> i want to be very clear everybody that for the states in the process has an equal vote on that process rate >> okay. and then mr. dwyer, i wanted to -- in light of recent events comegys -- companies like stockcraft lose membership status in your organization? >> they would not, the certification programs are separate and apart from the membership of the organization. -- of the same for delta and other brands that are jpma certified? >> correct. >> so they can still be a member -- >> correct. >> okay. even though they have these -- in your testimony, jpma list server 20 categories in this to petition program and including the krebs and infant carriers. which product should cpsc list as the top priority for the safety issues and issues a standards as soon as possible? >> in my opinion which products?

i would say cribs and that is why we spend today is and why the chairman reached out to the manufacturers and the consumer groups and asked as i testified to please help us accelerate rulemaking on the full-sized cribs. >> and ms. cowles, are you satisfied with the recommendations that came o in december >> i think banning drop side >> i think banning drop side cribs is an impo however, the real problem with the drop side, with as the family testified is hardware, using plastic hardware and the hardware pieces are still in other parts of the crib so we do believe we still need the stronger test to test hardware for turtle to come and that affect is being talked about in the meetings we've been too. so we are satisfied the new mandatory standard will have sufficient strength once we get to the plate. >> did you will vote on this new standard that cannot in december? >> not yet. process -- >> i'm sorry. did you both support that?

>> i abstained from voting on the astm committees. we support and administrative role but i do support the activities. >> okay. >> the manufacturing problems i th you know, i think that's -- the manufacturing problems i think is probably the issue we're all kind of looking at here. what should be done here? >> in terms of the manufacturing of the product itself? well, i would submit but i will briefly say, many of these are design issues. but manufacturing -- and i think one of the reasons the older cribs that people are talking about is having seem to have held up well made under the same lax regulation but were made under here -- so i think that manufacturing plays a role and i'm hoping that both jpma, cpsc and their oversight role, you know, work to make sure that if you choose to make a product overseas that you're selling to american consumers you need to make sure that it's

as safe as if you made it here. >> manufacturers of the products are incredibly irresponsible. ultimately they our customers, they are babies. i'm the father of three children. i used a drop site could handed down by a friend of a friend, disassembled three times, putting together three times, took care to follow the instructions every time and manufacturers of this, ultimately the children's lives are the most precious commodity, and i believe manufacturers have always had that -- >> if i can interrupt for a second. family behind you made the comment about the instructions being on the bottom of the mattress or the bottom of the slat and sort of glue on there. is that done so it continues on if somebody takes apart? >> correct. sprick i don't know if anybody keeps the instructions for something together. >> correct. it's part of the standard because, just that comes to the instructions don't get lost if the credits handed down or if it

is disassembled in between each child, which a product should be made to be able to be disassembled multiple times as nancy indicated. and the instructions are on their savitt don't get lost. -- >> so that is what they are glued on. exceeded my time. >> mr. braley? >> i want to follow the last comment to me. benefactors of the products are an incredibly irresponsible. you stand by that statement? >> idp respect is did you indicate a manufacturers association has grown to include more than 250 member companies in the united states, canada and mexico, and that these companies manufacture and it or in port infant products. >> correct. >> do you have members that our manufacturers in china and vietnam? >> no, we do not. actually, our main factors in the country or manufacture in those countries. >> right. but might we days since you have the word in port i assume some

of your members are importing products that are being manufactured, and that is true demand factor is that you are referring to when you set manufacturers are incredibly responsible. >> manufacturers that are members of the association must a place of business in north america but his, some of them to manufacture their products overseas or in part mark overseas, yes. >> is it customary that the inspections that you rely upon are done at the plant manufacturing? >> the inspections for the certification program? they are done both domestically and overseas. >> okay. you are aware that it's much more difficult to ensure the integrity of those inspection process these when they are being done in a country like china, which has very strict controls on access? >> our members and take great care to visit with their factories overseas every year and make sure quality-control practices are taking place at the highest levels. >> have you ever tried to serve

a chinese manufacturer of a defective product that's marketed in the guidance petites debate -- the united states? for legal process? >> i have not. >> tuna what is involved in the process? you know international treaties have to be complied with and that service has to be performed domestically through the chinese government that erect some roadblocks that can prolong the actual accountability of foreign manufacturers who are selling defective products in this country for years and years if you are ever successful? >> i'm not familiar with that process. >> are you aware certain states like my home state of iowa have domestic laws that provide immunity to the sellers of products like some of your members if the manufacturer is accountable and can be served, and that may put you into this and less limbo of trying to get service in a country that doesn't want its manufacturers to be served. and that's exactly what

representative sutton is talking about in the bill she's about to introduce. are you familiar with that problem with your work with these many people selling products that affect infants' lives and safety in this country? >> no sir but our program is built with safety and mine and we have testing,m&ç= they mirror what this committee has put together. i'm not familiar with challenges with serving chinese manufacturers with warrants for defective products but we're here to talk about our certification program, the astm standards. >> well, in your certification program, have you ever incountered instructions on assembly are written in that country of origin in some form of english that would not make sense to anybody in this room

and yet is being used by the manufacture and the subis i went seller of that product as a guide for assembly in that product? do you know that's taking place? >> well, there are guidelines for the standard that dictate how the instructions should be put together and i am not aware that there are issues withçó communication on the instructions. it is an issue that the group is working on and looking atñi adding some additional warnings and looking at instructions, eliminating moving products would help with any disassembly issues.

>> well, the product and the certification product, it has to be assembled to the manufacturer's instruction. >> well, that is my point. the point is the manufacturer and it is located in china, located in vietnam, and they sometimes have a very different understanding of the english language than american consumers putting that product together. i am not just talking about from a professional standpoint, i am talking about a parent who products and is mystified by what the intention is in the assembly process because it's obviously being written by somebody that doesn't live in this country. >> are you specifically talking about the durell products? >> yes. >> and they are not jpma certified. criminal charges were charged against those parents by endangering their child because they were made with duct tape. >> what happens in these cases

is everybody engages in finger-pointing. and one of the first people on the line are the parents dealing with the tragic loss of their child who are frequently blamed and subject to criminal prosecutions which are many times later dropped, and i think that it's important that if there are manufacturers profiting from the sell of these products they take a good look in the mirror and do everything they can to address the problem, not always blame the parents and that's why the work we're doing here today is so important and i yield back. >> thank you, mr. braley. on the case where the parents, charges, they were dropped. so just so the record is clear. mr. burgess, when he comes back -- i'll reserve his spot. i guess we're to ms. schakowsky. questions. alk a little bit more about the role of parents parents -- a. n-november lasher we talked about this but the

cpsc store craft recalled 2 million cribs would drop side hardware. as part of the recall, store craft created an instructional video and posted it on youtube. and so whoever's working on mack, let's get it up there to show consumers how to identify problems with their cribs and how to install the repair kits the company supplied so if you play that. >> before each usage for assembly, inspector check for damage hardware, loose joints, missing parts or sharp edges. do not use the crib if any parts are missing or broken >> so let me ask you, ms. cowles, is it responsible are realistic to expect parents will follow this recommendation in the real world? >> no, i don't do get a parent does that every time they put a baby in a crib anymore than you

open your head and check everything before you get in your car to drive. it's certainly something we might expect them to do occasionally, but no, i think parents assume the crib is going to stay put together. >> mr. dwyer, do you think a mother or father would wake up at 2:00 in the morning and put the baby back and that is going to go around and do a crib inspection every time before putting the baby back to sleep? >> having been a very tired father one time, no, ma'am. >> so mr. dwyer, keep put together for thomas questions page about topside cribs. it's on tabbed time of the document finder. and here's which are associations that she says. jpi may remind caregivers that when you assemble a crib to the manufacturer's instructions and use it structurally crib provides the safest sleeping

environment for abb. what do you mean by by use it properly? >> that is assemble according to the manufacturer's instructions. >> and inspected every time, right? >> would recommend that parents be aware that inspection may be needed and we also have safely guidelines for when not to put in the crib. that's part of the whole process, such as heavy blankets or pillows or that type of thing. >> store craft ceo jim moorish entered a statement after the november recall in which parents properly used the drop side cribs and infants entrapment. here's how the news account quoted mr. moore. in the majority of instances, the cribs were being used with open hearts, parts and pieces minicar parts were damaged or was modified or home made cards, unquote. so ms. cowles, what do you think about the store craft response?

>> i think it is particularly damaging to the recall process, that would manufacturers comment and as mr. dwyer has done here and blame the individual parents whose child either with diaper was hurt, it basically says to every other parents using that crib, i'm sure you don't need to worry about your crib because you're a smart parent who's using it correctly. and so i think that kind of language, especially after the cpsc has been negotiating with them the press release and come to an agreement of what's going to be said about it than the company comes out later that day or the next day with those damaging comments. i think again both discourages parents from participating with the recall because they think there's must be okay because they honestly put it together right and downplays the problem. i mean all that list of things, if that crib was a fallen apart, parents wouldn't have to do any of those things. so, if the crib i think were here to talk about. and not tell individual parents may decide to fix the problem

whether crib doesn't fact break. >> and mr. dwyer, what were you saying, kind of i felt sort of self righteously, about how these parents were on the dorel asia cribs charged with criminal negligence or whatever it was. >> i just want to clarify for mr. braley does calm were not by the association and i was made aware they were extenuating circumstances that that crib they were showed that tape holding the pieces of the crib together and that one side was broken from the crib and had been pushed against the wall. i was aware that criminal charges have been brought for child endangerment and also drug charges. i was not aware they have been dropped, but i specifically addressing i do not want those dreams recalled because they were not certified by the association. >> did you want to comment,

ms. cowles? >> i know that's not why were here today but i've been working with many parents whose children have been killed, more time than you can imagine that is always threatened or brought before the medical examiner can ascertain that the product itself was defective. i got parents charged with that, with child abuse, with all kinds of things. and so, the initial charge made by police have notification of what is actually responsible for that child's death, especially in a case like this were the charges are dropped. >> thank you. >> ms. sutton, questions please. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to follow-up on two things. first of all, representative braley's line of questioning on foreign manufacturers. i just want to invite all of our colleagues to seriously consider getting on this bill. it's a bipartisan bill to make sure that we can process and submit people who are selling products in this country to the

jurisdiction of our courts and enforcement of our laws. that's what i think the american people expect. and those are the consumers. yes, your customers are intense. with parents. and they're counting on us to deliver a degree of safety. but i also want to follow-up with ms. schakowsky's land of question because i think this idea of parental error versus product defect is an important one. and along the same lines, in september 2007, cpsc recalled more than a million simplicity drop side crips. one involving the company. and the cpsc noted some involved the drop side upside down, unintentionally. in this situation the drop side would function upside down. it would function my way and it

would weaken the hardware and in some cases detach from the crib. besides to drop side cribs have the same problem, had similar problems. so stork craft asserts this problem is not the companies fall. in the stork craft provided to the committee located at tab eight in the document finder, the company states, and i quote, this absolutely unreasonable to expect that to two reasonably foresee that a consumer would in stall the drop side rail upside down. mr. dwyer, do you agree with that to's statement. is it on for siebel that a consumer might improperly installed upside down with the drop side will still function that way? >> i'm not intimately familiar enough with the project. obviously, if the product is manufactured in such a way that it could be installed upside down as was the case with this product, that that would be the case. >> i don't understand your answer.

>> your question is, is a foreseeable for that product or rail to be installed upside down? apparently, that is the case. it is foreseeable if it can be installed upside down. >> okay, few agree with the stork craft's statement that it is unreasonable to expect that to be foreseen? >> i would say based upon the information, limited information about the specific product as i read it everyday here would say i disagree with that statement. >> thank you. and ms. cowles, i understand i understand you are part of a task group to examine the improper drop side installation? they produced an e-mail to the committee, which is located at tab one of the document finder. and it relates to this issue. this is an e-mail chain between you, jonathan midgett cpsc looking at improper assembly hydroxide. dr. midgett who was an

engineering psychologist comments as follows, the best way to prevent disassembly is to the consumer's ability to put parts in the bond place. the least effective strategy is to modify the instructions or create a list of warnings. to his coworkers at cpsc, dr. midgett dothan and e-mail to industry has been, freakish and its insistence on instructions of crips are at fault. this only makes sense if you know or don't want to change any of the shape of your crib hardware and would rather blame the consumer end quote. ms. cowles is this consistent with your experience in negotiating crib safety standards. >> i think is very consistent with mike's parents on the committee and and never mention them i wonder testimony the committee will not look at incidents that happen in cribs older than five years old even though we heard from the family that could've easily been a crib

that was in one place and not reassembled because they consider at all. they're very quick to blame when they can account things to let the consumer dead rather than to their crib. and again, as i said today, if it is made so you can put together in a way that causes death, that the design problem, not a consumer problem. >> thank you, ms. cowles and i appreciate mr. chairman boucher holding this hearing. the females illustrate relying on safety standards and i yield back. >> thinks. if i may just one question or two. and mr. burgess will be here in a minute. let me just ask this, mr. dwyer i ask about the certified products and we talked about recalls. do you ever take a similar ads in the same magazine advertisers on the recall like on the cribs? >> i'm sorry, i didn't understand the question. >> is your association -- you put out these ads advertising these projects that their

certified and with their recalled to ever take i'm not saying the southern recalled those consumers would no? >> no, we don't need specific products. >> wouldn't that be a good idea? >> i believe that several of the agency. we can communicate. we issued statements on provided statements based on when the stork craft products are recalled to help parents and concerned consumers understand the implications we link to recall governor website.éé6ñ'8o the deproicts are recalled. this is -- products are recalled. this involves multiple communication. >> these are probable conducts with your seal on it. if your seal products are being recalled, i'd think you would want people to know that to target these audiences. >> we do communicate but we don't take out ads in

magazines. >> do you have a question? ok. i'd like to thank this panel for their testimony. thank you, witnesses, and thanks for being here. as mr. walden reminds, we are going to have votes here pretty quick. let's see if we can't finish up this hearing. forward please, the honorable ms. tenenbaum of the consumer product safety counsel, leger record reflect that before you have your opening statement if the policy of this committee that you have the right under the wealth of the house to be at highest to be represented by counsel. please raise your right hand. >> do you swear it to make the whole truth and nothing but the truth. >> let the record reflect this

tenenbaum is under oath and please present your opening statement please. >> good morning, chairman stupak, ranking member walden and members of the subcommittee on oversight and investigation. the overall safety of cribs -- >> is your micron please? maker micron please. >> the overall safety of cribs is a critical concern of the cpsc a personal priority of mine giving on case gets off the market and out of the home is always been a key part of the cpsc mission. i strongly believe we must do more and have strong federal safety standards that prevent cribs with design flaws or safety defects from ever making it into the stream of commerce and trade commerce. since the inception of the agency in 1973 the cpsc has been deeply involved in issues of ribbon and conflicting environment safety. in november 1973, the commission promoted the first mandatory safety standards governing drop

side cribs. the cpsc is also worked diligently with other organizations such as the astm international code standards. these mandatory and voluntary standards come by the substantial outreach efforts have undoubtedly presented numerous infant child and just grease. one question that has arisen in some media reports is the issue of why the cpsc's current standards have not been revised since 1982. the main answer is that the commission has limited authority to do so under section nine of the product safety act. under that section which was revised by the cpsc, the commission was generally required to rely on voluntary standards that would likely result of inadequate reduction of risk an injury and where they would be substantial compliance with the standard. this reliance on military standards worked well in many areas but it also? substantial gaps have voluntary standard developing organizations were either

unwilling or unable to confront. this provision was modified by the cpsi to give additional authority for worldcom even when a voluntary standard is in existence. in addition, the cpsc also included section 104 anna danny keeps our child product safety notification act which gave new standards for 12 groups of durable infants and other products. i strongly support these additional authorities and have directed the cpsc stockton a crib safety a key priority. starting with immediate recall of cribs that have been shown to present the substantial risk of danger and injury to children. one example of the commission's outburst or would potentially hazardous cribs from the marketplace has been the two recent recalls the stork craft drop side trades. in january 2009, said to agree to voluntary recall of a million impact of cribs for rocket defect.

the cpsc was investigating instances of the drop side issue with the crib. these involved however large population of cribs with different styles of drop side hardware in a different mode of drop side failure. after my arrival at the commission i requested weekly commission briefings from the office of compliance on pending consumer product investigations. the subject of the september 24th, 2009 briefing was nursery products and included the commission's investigation into drop side cribs. during that briefing i learned about the developing compliance case regarding site to drop side cribs as well as the tragic june 2009 death in louisiana that involved a sad to drop side crib. following this briefing i directed the staff to get immediate priority to the recall is said to cribs in this drop side hazard. in november 2003, november 23rd, 2009, set to announce the largest crib action

in cpsc history. as above 2.1 sub to cribs. we also recently recalled transfix cribs because you are very well that recall. now, since these recalls and since my tenure as we needed the sleep sees initiative which a fixed point i want to talk about. and my statement this morning i'll just talk about the highlights but then you can ask the questions later. i think the cpsc has very talented that has worked diligently for years on this issue of safe crib. i also think that we could have for a variety of reasons including funding inadequate statutory authority and competing priorities move quicker to have a mandatory and stronger voluntary standards. and i want you to know and make very clear to the subcommittee that those days are over at the cpsc. this morning i'm pleased to

announce the details of the safe sleep initiative. first of all, you've heard from other speakers that the first part of this initiative is to expedite the rulemaking and have mandatory standards under section 104, for cribs. and i might add that when i came to the commission, the schedule for this rule for cribs was scheduled for 2012. when i learned about it, i pulled it in front of other roles and said we have to have the standard now. second, we are going to expand the commissions successful early warning system by having an early warning team for bassinets, cribs another safe environment for children. jury, will also increase the monitoring of recall effectiveness and corrective actions on crib recall cases. want to know how effective are these recalls. fifth, we're going to continue with our additional media outreach. for example, when we recall stork craft, we estimated

200 million people saw the television clips of those recalls. in sixth, we're going to have an internal management review of how we do because not only for cribs, but for other products. when i came to the commission i realized the commission need a new strategic land. it also needed consultants on the outside to come in and look at the operations and the management of that agency. so it went to the procurement process i'm pleased to announce just recently we have secured booze allen hamilton to do a top to bottom review of the cpsc and help us in this area. and mr. chairman and ricky member walden, i thank you for having this meeting. it's very important veggie show everyone involved in cribs safety how important is to you when i look forward to answering your questions. >> well, thank you. let me thank you on behalf of the whole committee and our staff or your work and cooperation in this area and also for being here all morning.

he sat through other panels that we appreciate that and we think that helps and what we're trying to achieve here. you said your sleep safe sleep initiative was starting today -- >> we party started. >> you said in your testimony when stork craft was announced a retail there were millions of people thought after. >> we went on the show and announced the recall and reason all of our social media, twitter, we estimate over 200 million had access to those television tapes. >> when we do recall here, especially like with stork craft, 2 million recalled here n-november, that's a voluntary recall. >> and is a voluntary recall. >> and you have to convince the manufacturer to do it. you don't have authority to say that they, we're recalling these cribs, correct? >> we could if we wanted to go

into administrative action which would probably result in litigation and take more time. the compliance officials and lawyers at the cpsc is that jimmy fekete a voluntary recall we could get the remedy to the consumer quicker and takes less time. but you have to negotiate. >> if you look at top seven here. i want to talk a little bit about that because you have to negotiate with the company that does not believe their product is defect is. right? >> of correct. in fact, that to maintain to this day the product does not affect it. >> still maintains that even though we recall 2 million cribs in 2009. if i understand this correctly, starting on may 6, 2009, stassen's e-mail to stork craft advising them to stop sale of drop side cribs, is that right? >> that's correct. >> is a number of entries in here about all what the stuff was doing, conversations,

discussions and that wasn't really completed until about october 9, set to submit a press release and then you have negotiations of the press release begins. >> that's correct. >> that takes you six months to convince them to a do a recall, correct? >> it depends on the circumstances. >> than this one it took six months. why do we begin negotiations of a press release? that's october 9. and it's my understanding and again i have all the entries that went through trying to negotiate a press release on the recall, which ends in children possibly died because of the effects in these cribs. and that takes us to press release issuance of october, excuse me, november 24. so that's another six weeks.

>> that is correct. we negotiate every word of that press release. were required to under the company. we speak under the cpsc was amended which gives us more flexibility but we negotiate press releases. >> six weeks here. beware i say to me being a little skeptical, but this is sort of like christmas season. that's when people are buying things. teething part of the negotiation to drag out the press release for six week is to get into the christmas season to sell more cribs better defect even been recall. >> bypassed myself i take so long 20 minute decision for recall why take six weeks. that is the standard procedure. and they produced a document for me with everything that has to be done. particularly if you're going to do a recall repair you have to manufacture the repair, test it and then inside the company to stork craft co., those decisions if you're talking about someone they have to run it all the way up to the ceo or whomever is at

the level to make a decision. but it is the truth. it takes an inordinate amount of time and all during this time the consumers don't know that their crib needs repair kit. >> even after you do recall, now this is well over six months that when we started this process in six weeks to get a press release out. on top of that there's another six months i can sell the product to the american people, right? >> once the recall is announced, we stop sales. in fact, the retailers have a way to win their computers put the number, serial number of the product. >> for mr. dwyer that we had another 680 days after that. >> now the recall will stop sale. >> okay, i had it wrong. why does it take so long? you at a number of recalls. why does it take so long? why does it it takes expense? >> it shouldn't take six month

and a slanderous exhibit initiative we are going to have a safe sleep team where everyone works together, the compliance officers, attorneys, epidemiologists, engineers that we can all work together to move the case forward quicker. i think six months is too long and you can also the company is not cooperating and keeps insisting they shouldn't have a recall, we can issue a unilateral press release, which we have threatened to do. i've also told our staff can reduce every enforcement power you need to move cases forward. don't let a company push back on you if you have the science and engineering complete and you know this is a product that needs to be recalled. said another leadership -- also is behind them in these recalls. we have also instituted since i came to the commission were once a week all five commissioners meet and we have weekly compliance briefings.

and monthly compliance briefings. so we know the status of cases and can give the staff are thoughts on how urgent we think these recalls are. >> well, hopefully next in the press release doesn't take six weeks. six hours should be enough. mr. walden for questions please. >> thank you, mr. chairman. chairman, i thought energy say you have the authority@@@@@@@@@ was the company not cooperates in that process? >> the company at that point was -- they were cooperating once we told them we were going to do the ref call, but when it said six weeks, it's not really -- i mean, it's -- >> is it six weeks? >> there were other things going on in that period of time? >> what other things were going? >> ok, i can give you the recall notification process. . recalled.

psc us to do this or the company? >> the commission has to do this. it's a two-page longer three-page long document of everything that has to occur before you can recall a case. and you've got to make sure the 800 number and website are operational. you have to test the kids. the company has to manufacture the care. >> these are required by your rules? >> these are required to have a successful recall. >> these are drop cpsc rules wee talking about? and you can control the procedures? >> consumer product safety commission, yes. we control it but we also have to make sure the recall is done appropriately. >> i fully concur with that but with that but i'm just turn to get this issue by took six weeks to get a press release out. >> this was a staff member's

note -- smacks we don't think those are accurate maybe? >> no, i'm not saying that, mr. walden. a man reflected reflected it was going on six weeks. but we do have to negotiate every word. they might go to their supervisor or to the ceo and come back to us and say we really dispute this death. so that was a good example, the death in the dorel asia case. so when you get and whether or not you're going to mention the death, the lawyers on both sides have to get into it. you should do an investigation. we can take six weeks. it would want to nowhere going to list safeword deaths, then you have to say inside to there were four deaths. >> you think that's an unfair process? >> we have to make sure that it's correct. what i would like to see on the front-end as for us now that we are going forward and we have

our team is going to be working together, i think we can shorten the part leading up to the recall. >> you think the early warning system has been toothless? do you think those were? >> the early warning system was formed after the simplicity recall in that puts together a team of people, voyeurs, compliant to look at the data that is submitted to us. >> i'm surprised he didn't everybody in your agency to talk. >> earlier you mentioned to you, you vastly were one of the transport if they had a duty to report and they did not. and that is one of the issues. we do not get report sometimes until years after an incident has occurred. so one of the issues that we were going to say in terms of improving the process, which

would take probably statutory authority is to require state to report events to last. medical examiner's reports. we purchase. we work with other -- we worked voluntarily with hospitals. we have a nice system. we have a number of ways we go through press releases. but i mean, newspapers. we do everything to find out about instances. but there's no duty to report from the state corners are medical examiners. >> thank you, that's helpful information to look as we go through. i just got 45 seconds left here and we've got those. let me ask you this. is it the industry trade group's duty to come up with these new standards or if there is a gap in safety, and is at cpsc's duty to put an mandatory standards? you have that authority, your predecessors have that authority. you can step in and put a

standard and that says, we're not going to have drop site cribs or were not going to have this type of manufacturing process, right? >> i think the astm should always have state-of-the-art robust standards for all the products. but they also see when you see patterns of this kind that go on for years then it's time for the cpsc before it gets displayed to the mandatory standard. that is why when i came to the commission we started looking at the cribs. we change the schedules of this year will have the mandatory standard. we asked the astm, i called and personally got them on the phone, you need to work with us to have the best voluntary standard possible. they voluntarily said yes without to work with you. they came and spent yesterday and the day before and worked all day long. and they've come to the agreement that we need to increase the wood quality. now it's a 50-pound standard. they agree to an 86 pounds standard.

we need to attest the hardware, giving the canadian wracking not say. i understand that's 9000 times the hardware is put under status to be tested. the outlaw wooden skewers and they also talked about other issues that would make a voluntary standard with us. >> thank you for your work and for your response to the questions. >> ms. schakowsky for questions, please. >> so let me get it clear. we are going to have a mandatory standard for cribs that will prohibit drop side? >> yes ma'am, we will. it will be 2010. we hope by early summer to have the nt are published in the federal register. richard 75 days of comments and then we will have the standard by the end of the year. we're also pushing to astm to adopt voluntary standards with

this you the good thing about having a mandatory standard as you put in the cpsi and will be retroactive. it will cover cribs entering public cribs like hotels and childcare facilities for the job site will be banned in public places. are we still worry about cribs and homes they continue to other topsides. >> and in the meantime, however going to keep these cribs -- are all of them with drop side recalls? >> well, we recalled 6 million of them and all of these are voluntary recalls where we have repair kits and we have two key continuing to educate people in the homeland cribs that there is a repair kit that they need to purchase. and so, it still will be in the home and we also want to reach out to the minority committees to the neighborhood safety

networks, the minority outreach program. also we're looking at how we can communicate to every state agency that licenses childcare facilities so we can send out e-mails to say don't use this brand crib. children have been injured or killed with these drop side. it's up to us to continue with our public information campaign. >> but there still will be until -- selector the 75 day comment, when are we going to see a ban on drop side curves? >> supposedly the astm has been found. and that's the direct your -- >> manufacturer. but not all of them have been recalled? >> i don't think every crib has been recalled. but it has banned prospectively. i'll have to get that you are not. >> put under cpsc, what does

that take us to? through the 75 day comment period. >> i would hope to have a mandatory role done and i hope we can do it soon. and the work that has been done the last two days by the astm should allow us to have information plus the agency put out in 2008. so we are going to try as fast as possible to have this done. >> okay, i want to get the letters right. the -- >> doreljpma. >> they voted against having a standard. and try to understand the relationship of the industry. and for a long time i've been concerned about the issue for example of these press releases. and i understand of course getting the accuracy. but it doesn't take that long to

figure out if someone -- of the child has died or four children have died. and the fact that the industry doesn't want that in a press release, who cares. why do we have to negotiate that? why should it take so long? if this is a thread of life, do we have to do more? how does our new outcome of the improvement act, change the world about these press releases? >> well, i'll give you an example. this just weak we recalled dorel asia in the today show another morning shows a very helpful to us and they say we will announce this so people can get the word on this. and we had it that in the press release that child had died. the people representing dorel asia were talking to tom castello until right before he went on the air saying do not mention that death.

and so, that is how we have to deal with this. and he mentioned it because we asked them to. >> well, under the new act, he said there's been some improvements and not. what has been improved? >> well, under six pikachu shortened the period of time. but still the negotiations about whether or not i doubt that the cost of the hardware or some salt of the consumer and that goes back and forth and we have to be really hard about pushing forward that were going to list the stats. >> i think we really have to do something about that. don't you think the impact of a statement, where death has occurred is much more powerful than -- >> yes. if you're in as your child can tragically died by being entrapped. they will go in the room and look at that crib immediately we

hope. or even when a child is injured and we can show parents, this is not something that you can fix yourself. please get the repair kit. and if it's the crib is in such bad shape, please do not use it. >> i've got to cut you off good mr. burgess has two minutes left. >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank you commissioner for being here today. i know we have a request in your office to have a meeting and i hope are able to have that soon. mr. chairman, who also say having taken a trip to the testing facility at cpsc, i would encourage a field hearing of the testing facility sometime. i think it's important for us to see how they do a good job with really sometimes are pretty rudimentary tools. and if we behave ourselves maybe they'll let us custom of the toys that we promise that you break them. now, you have said -- i'm a

little confused by youth in the manufacturer drop side cribs. >> astm hassan will put them in a mandatory standards. >> who needs to ban the import? >> what the astm is a voluntary standard in their same in the standard, which they voted on in december 2000 that it will no longer meet standards of its drop side. we will have a role this year and i don't want to whine but i want to tell you we have had 48 federal register notices since the passage of the cpsc. there's so many roles under that we push board that fat by it take so want to finish these roles. it anyway, i'm sorry. >> some of the things we've gone through before with the lead up was the problem we have with stuff that is made overseas in china been brought to this

country that doesn't make our standards. if it's defined by the drop side that is the problem, that it doesn't matter where it's made in my opinion if it's made overseas, that we should not allow its import. now what do we have to do with the world trade organization and all of our treaties and borders that, what do we do to keep those kids from coming into being sold in retail outlets? >> if we banned the drop side, we could stop at the port. and we will and the rule. >> which is going to happen? >> in 2010. >> and turn it was originally scheduled in 2012 and we have expedited that moved about 22010. >> the notes i have new u.s. consumer product commission safety general counsel required actions pursuant to the consumer product safety act of 2008 and this is dated september 2008, that we would do this by august 2009. i guess that's what a little bit? >> i guess it did.

the durable nursery equipment items there were 12 of them. baby bath and baby walkers. >> kdgwár@ @ r,'r we can expect you to issue a mandatory ban on drop-side cribs sometime in 2010? >> >> yes, sir. and that will be applied for cribs in public places, such as child care facilities and hotel rooms, but it won't apply to bans in homes. so the consumer would still have it. under section 104. >> if they had existing ones. but will they go to a retail outlet and purchase one? >> no. >> would a retailer be able to import one for sale? >> no. not after we say they don't meet the standards. >> we will be able to stop those at the border? >> yes, sir.

bill in 2008 was the funding and personnel level at cpsc. where are we with that now? >> well, where the level of having 530 ftes, full-time equivalents and we now employed as of today 479. do we have 45 recruitments in the process of being hired. and it's our goal to be at the top of the 530 this year. >> now, we were given nancy noris and mr. moore at the funding levels providing cpsc in past years were not satisfactory those were increased. what actions are you taking now that we're going to be the tough budget year.

it's going to be real tough. and yet, this is one of the more important functions. but still very level on the totem pole things get funded. what actions are you taking to make sure your funding does not slip? >> well, when we go and meet personally with a one b. and i go myself to talk to them how important it will be to be able to implement the cbs eye and other statutes i asked him to hold her agency heartless. and so, i said $10 million to the cpsc is a tremendous amount, $10 million to make an agency would not have the same effect. and we keep demonstrating to them how we're using it. also at pusan allen hamilton which does strategic plan for us, they will be looking at what additional resources we need or how we've are seeing resources to accomplish our goal, which is keeping consumer safe.

>> i would just say don't forget your friends on this committee at the appropriators are treating me squarely. thank you, mr. chairman. >> i conclude solver question. i ask unanimous consent mr. waxman and the attachment be made part of the record. and that concludes all question. i want to thank governor says for their testimony. the world can be provided that no members have up up to ten days to submit additional questions for the record. another question that they either to report deaths and injuries and after you do a recall we've seen going in the stores there's no notifications are there's going to be other questions will follow probably with you, madam chairperson. so i ask unanimous consent that the contents of a document be entered in the record provided that committee staff made reback any concerns about privacy or proprietary bonds for certain sensitive issues. that document, documents be entered in the

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> you are watching c-span created by the nation's cable companies offered as a public service. here's what's ahead. next, a discussion on the proposed jobs bill in the senate. then a look at the quad drenial homeland security report. and later, a conversation on civic literacy. >> yes, that is the white house, barely visible through the wind and snow of a washington blizzard. the federal government remaining closed. the house and senate closed for business. meetings are scheduled at the white house, however. african-american leaders meeting

with the president today talking about jobs and also news coming from the administration today as president obama announcing new sanctions on iran. the obama administration imposing sanctions. the associated press writes that announcement comes as the administration is pressing to impose fresh international sanctions on iran over its failure to prove its nuclear program is peaceful. taking a look at the $787 economic stimulus program, $333 billion has been committed. $179 billion has been paid out. check out our website includings links to government and watchdog groups that are tracking the money at c-span.org/stimulus. >> this film, "hillary the movie" was the focus of a recent supreme court decision on campaign finance. documentary producer, david

bossie on sunday night on c-span. >> democratic senators are supposed to talk tomorrow in a caucus about jobs legislation. we talked about it this morning with ian swanson from the the hill. a sense of what is evolving? guest: what is çevolving is a sense of democrats çand republicans to agree on a jobs bill. it reflects the new political reality in washington where democrats can't get through the house. they have to get some republicans on board. they are trying, but there are some things in the bill that republicans are not crazy about. and the political realities if you want to let a jobs bill go through that could be seen as a good political thing.

to give a boost to the members of congress. host: one writes that the job bill is postponed. one reason is the weather, but the bill itself is in draft form.çóç guest: that's right, harry reid was hoping to get a vote this week, and a part still to get that vote. saying yesterday that we were watching for the bill to come out. and threatening that we will stay here this weekend if we need to do get this vote out. as afternoon turned into evening, he said it doesn't look like we can do it. there were 15 senators missing and having a tough time to get into town. senator reid has asked them to ó

host: our guest, ian swanson, and we have our lines open for republicans and democrats and -eeáq'd-n%s.ç the headline saying, jobs bill cuts payroll tax on new hires, touch on that concept. guest: the key provision would give a tax credit to çóhire new workers over the next year. i believe the dates go from february, assuming the bill passes in february, to january 1, 2011. and that's right, businesses would get a tax credit for o not replace existing workers. and there are a couple of republicans and senators that have been working with this.

the idea emerges from a proposal that came from senators hatch. some >> there are some republicans that have raised about hiring a tax credit in the past. it was used by the carter administration and said it deposit work then, why are we doing it now? host: does that tell you anything about the broader bill, get back about your earlier comments about the two sides getting together. guest: you are going to need republican votes on this. i think the republican conference is a bit divided on some of the specific policies in the bill. there are a lot of tax policies. there is a tax extender's package that is germly popular with the business community and popular with members of both parties. the hiring tax credit is

something that not all republicans agree on. we reported that not all the democrats are sold on the jobs bill as it's emerging either. i quoted from senator brown from ohio and he said he was worried there were too many tax cuts in the bill, that it was focused too much on tax cuts for business. this thing isn't across the finish line. both parties need to get it through. both the republican and democrat leaders could have difficulties going forward. host: maybe the snow isn't a bad thing. gives them more time? guest: gives them more time to decide it. get call from rhode island, independent. caller: good morning, i wonder how we in america will create jobs when we no longer have a manufacturing base. you know that bill clinton destroyed the country with the republican congress at the time.

those manufacturing jobs çare never çcoming back. host: comment on the manufacturing base. guest: yeah, there is some truth to it, the manufacturing jobs have been crushed by this recession. i believe that the u.s. remains the largest manufacturer in the world. china hasn't surpassed yet. may do so in the next couple of decades. manufacturing has shown some signs of life in the last month or two. there are a lot of surveys that show more production by u.s. manufacturers. in terms of the jobs bill going through congress, obviously if manufacturing companies are thinking about hiring new workers but not sure given all the uncertainty in economy, a tax credit could spur them on

but it's argued it's not the best use of taxpayer money. host: we hear about the number of jobs that could be created and saved? guest: i don't think i have seen that, and i think that both parties would be careful about that. there are numbers attached to the stimulus saved and created. but we learned it's tough to tabulate how many jobs you save. and the economy has lost a couple million jobs i believe since the stimulus was approved or sent into law in february. it may have prevented many more jobs from being lost. but that's an argument that is sort of difficult for the democrats now. host: we will keep digging deeper in this jobs bill. our caller, democratic line.

caller: yes, my question is about the outsourcing of jobs to other countries. i know we have lost more jobs, every time i call my credit card company i get someone in india. and i wonder if the jobs bill will do anything to keep and bring those jobs back and give incentives to companies not to outsource to other countries. guest: the interesting thing, there are some things in the jobs bill that could help. and going back to the hiring tax credit that could convince companies to hire more workers. in the white house when obama talked, one thing that came out was the agreement to move forward on trade. there have been three trade agreements pending in congress that were initiated by the bush administration that have not moved at all. the republicans have demanded

they move, and argue this would help create jobs in the united states. a lot of democrats don't think that's the case and would lead to outsourcing. we have seen signs of renewed emphasis from w3president obamad on exports.çokq they have iñbeen ca+eful talki about qçt(the ymtrade çt(w3ag they areñrçñrt(ñrw3 controversç they have been careful about talking about trade companies. the party is pretty much split on the strayed agreements. going back to your question, you will see this outsourcing debate intensify if this trade debate picks up and the republicans want to move on these trade agreements. the democrats are dieded. obama is showing signs that maybe he wants to think about it. host: our guest was a part of

the u.s. trade publication. he writes a column on economics at the "hill." tampa, florida, pat. republican, good morning. caller: tampa loves obama. and he owe kay our high-speed transport and we are thrilled to death. host: what is the job situation? caller: 10%. and we are looking optimistic at the high-speed rail. it's going to provide jobs, health care, you know. i think one feeds into the other. it's giving an optimistic attitude here in tampa. we're all excited about it. when he got here and spoke to the university of tampa, we were

elated. he was put on the line. there were some questions from our students that socked him to him. i'm a republican and not a democrat. but we love obama here in tampa. thank you so much. host: high-speed rail, tampa, one of several stops the president has made recently. guest: a swing state. seen that on president obama. host: more about the jobs bill. cost of this jobs bill. any price tag on it yet? from the congressional budget on the cost, it looks $85 billion in the first year and another 19 in the second year. host: çare there offsets being talked about? guest: there are, they are

rather complicated that would involve the highway transportation fund and fuel to pay off the tax credits. host: clarksville, tennessee, anthony. caller: good morning, i have a question, isn't ççthis money reallocated from the tarp. i don't see the issue, ççxdifç reallocated from ,iátthe money is there. and to reallocate from the lower end, i don't see the issue. host: is that the case? guest: not exactly, the president has announced some initiatives to use tarp money to spur along loaning of small businesses but that job bill

paid from a different revenue source. i don't believe that the tarp bill is used for this jobs sector.g#ççó host: any particular economy will benefit from this bill? guest: there is talk about didn't segments of the economy. host: one headline, the senate job bill is a joint effort. they point out that democrats include, republicans backed idea of backing of businesses. florida is on the line, caller, what part of the state are you in? caller: this is ohio, this is south of cleveland. your football hall of fame, bull dogs. host: how is the job situation there?

caller: it's bad here. host: how bad? caller: our manufacturing base is almost nothing, the biggest industry we have is hospital industry. and plus we bring in a lot of trash from out of state. that's another big issue we are having in this county. we don't want other people's trash but it seems like money talks. anyway, that's not the issue. what makes this gentleman think that the republicans is going to do anything other than what they have been doing on this jobs bill. they was for the bank bailout. they were for cap and trade. they were for pay as you go. they back all of them until they found out the president was for it. and on the stimulus thing,

everyone of these, you can go to the senate and congress on the republican side, they all are in support of this, disapproved it. but when they got the money in their home districts, they praised it. saying it's a boondoggle and then there is a check in their hand. they are just hypocrites and boehner is the leader. guest: mitch o'connell suggested that republicans were looking at this seriously and may come onboard. anyone watching washington recently have complete justification that the parties can come together. all the major bills have been

on partisan lines. however there is a danger for residence -- republicans to be seen as obstructionists. president obama is taking the tactic of trying to reach out to republicans and trying to bring them onboard. some republicans would say he's not sincere in that. but that's how qçqthis t(çpolç game ççw3çwill çóokplay out.ç if okthe americans believe that president ñrobama çis making  nd the nt ñrobama çis making  çokççzvç they could be hurt by that. zvç even if they still gain seats. even if they don't gain many seats. at the same time, there is a risk of republicans being seen as rolling over and giving momentum to the administration. that's politics. that's what a lot of people

don't like about washington, but it's the reality of our system. host: we have a call from green bush, michigan. republican line. caller: don't take this personally, but speaking of reality, here's the reality, the previous caller touched on it earlier concerning nafta. people mention nafta like old news. $1.50 to 3 .50. i don't hear senators being asked how we are going to compete against that for manufacturing. let me state this. over the weekend, i had the pleasure of talking to mr. paul johnson, a great historian and at least he talks straight and i asked him how are we going to compete on this? and he said it's new technology

in the colleges and what we're going to learn in the future. so what's to stop like detroit right now, we're going to develop the best batteries in the world, we're going to develop the best drive trains, transmissions to make everything work right for the new age of cars. once we get this perfected, the big corporations, all they're going to do is move this stuff to mexico and china. we need to ask ourselves directly how are we going to compete at an average of $3 when they think they are swimmings in money now and we couldn't even pay one bill at $3 an hour. it doesn't make sense. guest: it's not going to make sense if you are building, for example, a broom or something. you can't compete with people who are making less money when you are making low-cost

products. the potential is there for a u.s. manufacturer to make high value products. as many troubles as the auto sector is having, ford has had a fantastic last year. the problems with toyota give u.s. auto makers to increase market share in the united states and outside the united states. i think the argument you see from the obama administration also is that they see an opportunity for manufactured products that get to this new green economy. they think that the u.s. manufacturers are going to have a leg up there because of technologies that can go into those products. look, i don't think anyone would argue that the competition from emerging countries like china and india isn't fierce. not only do they have competitive labor markets, but they also have huge surpluses. their countries -- their

governments ask invest a lot of money in state products and they're doing that, too. so it's going to be a challenging world environment for u.s. manufacturers, but i think the argument from the republicans and democrats is that there is still a good shot for u.s. manufacturers as long as they focus on the right industries. host: 20 minutes left with our guest. here is a message on twitter. one viewer writes -- that's one viewer's opinion. new york, frank, independent, you are on. good morning. caller: they aren't doing anything to resolve the problems with jobs, hospital care. let me give you a for instance. right after katrina or during katrina when we were having all the problems with the levees

there, i remember governor schwarzenegger said, listen, i have a problem of levees in california. i haven't heard any resolution. these are the things that should have been shovel-ready jobs and things that should have been taken care of before the hospital or health care bill. another thing is, we have to become unfortunately isolationists because we can't pick and choose the industries -- you know, you say the high-tech industry because they will ship them overseas. the american public has to start buying our own products. we are the biggest market. this world financial crisis that we're having, we are ending up the best other than china and that's because they manipulate their money. it's crazy. no common sense. and this gentleman by the name

of obama is captaining a ship calling the ti tanic and fight -- titanic and fighting the passengers all the time. guest: one thing the caller mentioned is china pegging its currency. what that has done has made chinese exports much less expensive not only to the united states but to europe and all over the world. and makes it harder for u.s. manufacturers to export to china large emerging market. their products are more expensive. there has been a continual clammer in congress from members of both parties as well as from the business community for the administration to do something about this. there were years of clammering for the bush administration to do it as well. it's something that's difficult for a republican or democratic administration because they need to cooperate with china on so many different foreign policy things, plus there is this nasty

issue of the u.s. debt, much of which is owned by the chinese, which is exacerbating the situation. i have done reporting in the last month about how economic relations between the u.s. and china are just expected to worsen this year and we have seen no sign -- any evidence of that would not be true from google's problems in china and u.s. arms to tie juan. debate will -- taiwan will continue this year. host: on the jobs front. here is a picture of minority leader boehner, including president obama. you see three of the house members, speaker, john boehner and steny hoyer on the democratic side. but seeing those house members there reminds me to ask, what has the house been doing on the jobs front?

what have they done in recent months and where they might be headed? guest: they passed a $154 billion jobs bill right before christmas. and now the house is looking at doing actually a smaller jobs bill that would match up more with the senate so you could have a much easier conference with the senate and get something done. there are some behind the scenes work on that. nothing has been released yet. there have been bicameral discussions about a jobs bill. looks like the house is moving towards where the senate is doing. we don't know where the senate bill is going to be yet. stay tuned. host: melvin on the line, democrat. caller: i have been a c-span watcher since 1990. and one thing that you need to do is provide the audience how

congress works because they have an understanding that everyone comes to the table with no agenda and meets in their own caucuses and sit down and try to make the legislation that way. another thing i want to say to the gentleman when he mentioned that no money from the tarp will be used for jobs, that is partially right, but the reason we loaned money to the small banks because we have small businesses indicating they can't get money to hire people because of the tightening of the loans. money is going to the small banks will be used for hiring people. that money will go from the tarp so people can get the loans to create more jobs. so he was wrong when he said none of that money will be used towards a jobs program. guest: the money from the jobs bill -- the jobs bill that is

moving through congress right now, i don't believe that any of that bill is going to be paid for by tarp funds. the caller is right that tarp funds are going to be used in this new initiative. the president announced a couple of weeks ago to spur lending by community banks. the caller is also right that lending is a problem, even though the banking industry, especially the big banks are doing a lot better right now than they were a year ago. credit still isn't moving through the economy the people would like to see it and the administration and congress would like to see it and this new effort is supposed to help people get loans for small businesses, supposed to help people get loans for homes. so, caller makes a good point. and ?;i]ççça writing çthat

businesses grew >> the index that small business optimism released tuesday by the national federation of independent business rosexd 1.3 points to 89.3 in january. what does that mean to you? guest: it's a dep sign. the question is, when is hiring going to begin. last friday, the latest unemployment report. the good news it went from 10% to 9.7%. the bad news is the economy continued to lose jobs and it's not gaining jobs and people are continuing to give up and not trying to get a job, which means you have millions of people who are out of work and given up looking for jobs. hopefully the statistics show it's going to turn around and there will be a hiring boost. but everyone is waiting when we

see that turna h aaround. host: obama's plan would affect home states. guest: nobody likes to cut spending that is going to help their own constituents. that is the story in washington today. and has been the story for some time. it's why it's hard to cut spending. the caller said a few minutes ago that journalists in washington should talk more

about the agendas that people have -- that politicians have when they come here and that's one of the ajeopardy ast every lawmaker has, looking out for your constituents. and they don't like to see money cut that's going to affect their home states. host: what's the effect of this bipartisan fiscal commission. i bring that up, because "usa today" talks about three strikes , what might the future bring with the commission? guest: what i was just speaking about, they can't agree themselves to spending cuts that would get the deficit under control. the new idea is to create this outside commission with former politicians on it who would offer recommendations as to how to cut the budget, particularly the flifmente programs that are a long-term, immediate-term problem. the idea behind the commission is sort of that the political

system is broken and not going to make the tough decisions itself. so you have to get outside a group to make the recommendations. the problem is that congress is still going to have to vote on it and the president is still going to have to sign it and who knows if that will be possible. host: georgia, republican line. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i would like to ask the guest if he could elaborate a little bit. it's my understanding that we have yet to spend nearly half of the stimulus money, $789 billion. i believe the estimate is $865 billion and now talking about an additional $85 billion for a job plan. if we have the remaining funds from the original stimulus, a lot of the remaining funds, why are we coming back to the american people and chinese in particular to borrow more money

to go about setting up a jobs plan? i'll take your comments off the air. guest: most of the money from the original $787 billion stimulus has been allocated and a fair share is out the door. i'm sorry, i don't know if every penny has been spent. i'm not up to date on the latest figure on that's correct but i believe most of the money was to be spent in 2010 or 2009 and the very first part of 2010. the argument for why they're doing this is they see unemployment high and think they need to do more. there is a valid argument to be made that given the deficit situation that there shouldn't be more money spent and that's part of the debate we are seeing. host: robert is on the line from missouri. independent line. caller: i don't know where to begin. the caller that was on before

about nafta, the thing is, you know, we are doing these free trade agreements. you can't compete with labor that cheap. my concern is that the corporate sector in these companies with their lobbyists got it passed to begin with, republicans and democrats. we are exploiting these people that live under a dictatorship, you know. it's not right. we are doing that in all these countries. and i think nafta is like one of the biggest acts of treason against this country, that i can't believe what's going on, you know. i mean, you got all these democrat liberals, bleeding hearts, but ain't doing nothing for these people in these other countries, but we're paying the price for it here.

guest: it's interesting we had three callers mention nafta that was signed into law by president clinton and passed by a republican congress in 1994. the callers' arguments show why it's so difficult for a trade agreement to move through congress. it is one of the most divisive issues in washington and it seems again like it's going to come up for a new debate this year. the democrats are divided on it. the republicans want to move trade agreements with colombia, south korea and panama. there will be an argument over whether those agreements are exactly like nafta or whether there are improvements to improve environmental and labor rules that would make those agreements more fair for american workers. there's plentyly of people who think it will help.

plenty of other people that think that there needs to be many more changes. host: borrowing more money isn't going to create any jobs. you can give me a 50 grand tax credit and i wouldn't add a new hire. hank paulson has been out there lately, the former treasury secretary.ñi guest: i think the big question with the bailout program is whether the auto makers will be able to pay over $100 billion that they owe. seems like it's complicated because of the stock transactions that took place when the u.s. government essentially took over general motors. but most analysts seem to think

that with the banks, the u.s. is not only going to get paid back but ahead because of dividends. host: do you think that will change the mood out in the public about so-called bailouts, government intervention? does it increase confidence, do you think? guest: it could. one thing -- i think the dilemma is that while the bailout of the banks on some levels has worked and that you're not seeing the big banks spiral downward as you were in the fall of 2008. as we spoke aboutñr earlier, we haven't seen credit -- we -- it hasn't become easier for small businesses to get credit. that's what people on main street want. they were sold on the idea that was going to happen through the tarp and i think that's why the and iris out there, that the economy is still deplorable and workers are losing jobs and can't get help and read about

the big bonuses. you can look at that that the tarp worked on one level but doesn't mean that it was meant to trickle down to main street or at least that would be the argument. until that happens, people are going to stay angry about the tarp. last thing, too, is the budget. while the money being paid back means that the deficit wouldn't expand because of the tarp, in peoples' minds they see the big deficit and all this money going out to banks, bonuses, people still out of work. that creates political hard feelings and hard feelings just on main street. host: caller from west palm beach, florida. republican. good morning. caller: my concern is as an example with city bank. i called on my credit card and i'm speaking to the philippines or speaking to india. it's absolutely outrageous that

we have been giving these banks billions of dollars and they are now sending these jobs overseas. there's no reason why college students getting out of school could not have these jobs at stibank or bank of america. we are here in palm beach, florida. the unemployment is really 15%. it's not being broadcasted throughout the united states, but it's absolutely horrible down here. i was wondering, could you comment how these banks were allowed and it must have taken years to set this up -- why were these jobs outsourced to india and to the philippines? guest: the reason that the banks set up call centers in foreign countries was the value of labor, the labor is cheaper in those countries and that's why

they're doing it and doing it to drive down their costs. i would assume that most of those setups took place before the tarp money was put out. businesses are free to make those kinds of decision s. the reason that the tarp or the argument for why the tarp needed to be set up and aid to be given to ctibank and others, you would see the system collapse and the situation would get much worse than it is now on main street. but it doesn't -- you can't argue that it wasn't a mistake and companies that are doing that shouldn't get the help. that's why there is anger about it today. host: independent line, chicago. good morning, charles. caller: good morning. how are you doing? i'm going to take a little time, i have three points to make and

it's going to come into the jobs effort that i do have for mr. swanson. thank you for being here, mr. swanson. you have to be talking about a lot of support. what confuses me as an american is that how you are dividing the topics. look at the phone lines, independents, republicans and democrats. we aren't volunteered to help obama become president obama. i worked with democrats, republicans and independents to get him into office. that in itself and the reason i say that, petty policies and brings into the jobs and i'm still coming to that as an unemployed american. but, but because of what our stimulus package what our president has done to help many americans seeing the problems that our country