need to talk about is whether in securing the border is ever going to be reached before the congress in the sense of the congress or whether that goal post is going to keep moving. i also believe that we need to communicate better with the american people. >> i totally agree with that. >> six or seven years ago, the number of illegal apprehensions in the tucson sector of the border was over 600,000. . .

>> if it is unfair to ask whether the border is secure, we are never going to get it secure. i do not think it is. i think border security has deteriorated. along with your best efforts, there is more to be done. there is a war going on. you cannot ignore the fact that the border is more dangerous because of the war in mexico, which requires more action, not less. >> senator graham, if i might

-- let me respond to the way i heard the question. what i would say is that we need to continue with all of our efforts to secure the border. the numbers are better than they have ever been, but that does not mean we stop and that there is not more progress to be done. but i would also suggest, sir, i would also say that the passage of law at the state level illustrates the need for congress to move ahead. >> i agree with you. as chairman, here is my view. i think the border is less secure because the circumstances in mexico make it less secure. you have done good things. more things need to be done. for anybody who wants relief, you deserve it. but the last thing that can happen to get that is to bring up a bill where there is no hope of it passing. in this environment, there is no hope of it passing. let us get this environment passing -- this environment

secure, protect america, and be fair to the 12 million people but also be firm that we are not going to have 20 million more in the future. that is the winning combination. >> i thank my colleagues for allowing senator graham time, given his remarkable involvement in the issue. i think he was entitled to it. i think my colleagues for understanding. it has come to me, secretary, and i want to talk about fema and cyber. i want to thank you for your visit to rhode island after our flooding. i do not remember whether i called you on a tuesday or wednesday, but you were there by friday. it was a quick response. you came up in person. it was important for rhode island to see that attention. this was a significant lead for us. there were places where it exceeded the army corps of

engineers' 500 year flood lines. i want to commend the effort of fema in deploying rapidly, in deploying widely, in deploying effectively. the presence has been first rate and the people who come in from across the country to help have been very good to work with. there is inevitable disappointment about the fact that the program that fema can deliver has statutory and regulatory restrictions. you get what you get and not more. but the speed and efficiency with which you came in to deliver what fema can deliver was commendable. i wanted to say that. there are two areas where we are still having problems. if you could pass on to one of your staff people to help us work through it, i would appreciate that. one is that some of our disaster victims -- we have 2000 not back in their homes. it has been quite a while. this is a long time to still be out.

some are having problems finding temporary housing and have reported being moved from hotel to hotel and having difficulty finding monthly rentals, particularly monthly furnished rentals with all the furniture since there's is under water. anything that can help us work through that problem would be helpful. the other problem that has emerged is cases in which fema inspectors have disagreed with the local determination by municipal building officials whether a building is in habitable or not. it puts the occupant of the building in an impossible position to be told different things by fema inspectors and local inspectors. a resolution of that quickly between those two -- some mechanism for resolving it is very important. otherwise -- these people are frustrated to begin with. they are flooded out by flooding they had never foreseen or experienced in their lives. all the inconvenience and delay, and now it is not habitable.

or it is inevitable. your benefits aren't going. we say you can move in but another inspector says you can't. if you could result that i would appreciate it. >> will get in touch with fema after this hearing to see what can be done. >> i appreciate that. on cyber, i guess i would like to ask two questions. one is we have got maybe three dozen cyber pieces of legislation pending in congress right now. in the professional community that looks at cyber as a national security issue, there is intense interest and activity. it is an area in which you and i both believe an enormous amount needs to be done in order to prepare america better. partly because what we do to protect .gov and .mil is

classified and what the private sector experiences in .com and .org is not something they want to talk about, because it reveals vulnerabilities that competitors can take advantage of and so forth, my contention is that the american people are way behind in this discussion. my first question is how you think -- should we try to formalize some way for getting the american people more involved in this discussion of very significant questions we have to answer about the use of the internet, about protecting companies, about their rights to defend themselves, about protecting our government, about cyber piracy. i contend that cyber piracy is the biggest transfer -- the biggest theft of value -- in the history of humankind. we are on the losing end of it. i think a lot needs to be done.

how do we get the american people more engaged? >> i think your question lays out some of the -- the private sector needs to be more engaged. we need greater connectivity on the civilian side. one of the things, senator, that we have been looking at is plain old good cyber hygiene by any individual who is getting on the net. we actually have a competition underway right now. i think it closes next week. it is for simple slogans, simple messages that can be used to engage anyone who is on the net. they are part of the system. once you are on the system, you get the advantages of the system but you also get the disadvantages. it is, as you say, something that much work needs to be done on. >> i look forward to working with you. i have heard that 80% of the

cyber attacks that america sustains succeed -- systems that succeed could be blocked if people took very basic, very common, standard preventive measures. in effect, we are not applying to our computers and laptops anywhere near the same degree of care that we require americans to do on the highway with their vehicles. we need to find a way to bridge that gap. the second question has to do with emergency response in the event of a significant cyber attack. if a bank, for instance, crashes because of solvency concerns, the fdic can come in on friday. by saturday, is under new management. everyone feels comfortable. the institution continues. it is saved because there was a brief and effective government intervention that carried it from one private owner to another. if that same bank is hit by a

sniper attack, the confidence in ait is suspect. if an electric utility is hit in a way that compromises its ability to deliver services and its own information systems cannot withstand the attack, how ready are we as a nation to step in behind that bank or that utility and sustain them through the sustained cyber attack, help defend their network, help build a flow of deposit records where all those things are maintained, and when the situation is under control step out again so it remains in private hands? >> i think we have cert teams and other mechanisms. they are not set up in the same way, in the same kind of takeover type of facility or

capability as you would in a bank in receivership, for example. i think these are all ideas that now need to be discussed within the congress and that we need to -- really need to be exploring a lot of these ideas. some of them are expressed in the multiple pieces of legislation that are being proposed. but i think you are right to say that this needs to be a very high priority both at the individual level but also at the private and institutional level as well. >> i look forward to working with you and i appreciate and salute your leadership of the department of homeland security. i believe senator corn andyn is next -- senator cornyn is next. >> i know you share my concern with the escalating drug violence in mexico. i appreciate your -- out,

calling me and giving me insight -- i appreciate your reaching out, calling me and giving in sight of your meetings. i was impressed by the high- level delegation that speaks to the seriousness with which he challenges the mexican government is having from the cartel's threatens not just their safety but ours as well. i think most americans would be shocked to learn there have been about 23,000 people killed in mexico since 2006. there is a war going on, as you know. i worry that the mexican government may not be poised to win that war. i support the marita initiative, which i know you support and are responsible for implementing in large part. i worry that what we are doing is not turning this direction of

the escalating violence around. there is more that we need to do. i went to el paso on friday and had a good briefing from the federal authorities there, which was very informative. but one of the things that i learned there is that there is -- there are substantial spillover effects into the united states, particularly into el paso. for example, sylvester reyes, who represents that district, has cited 150 victims of violence in ciudad juarez who crossed over into the united states to be hospitalized, at a cost of about $3 million. 32% of the associated fees -- only 32% have been fatal -- have been paid. some of the hospitals worry that the cartels have not finished

the job and will come over to the united states and complete it in juraez. -- in juarez. it is with an eye to this i want to ask you about predators -- aerial vehicles and other assets we can deploy to help provide intelligence and other assets that could be used not only by the united states to secure our border but by the mexican government to defeat the cartels. customs and border protection has five unmanned vehicles currently in operation -- three predators on the southern border and two on the northern border. i am upset that there are none in texas. we have a 1,200 mile border with mexico, and as i understand none of those predators are available or are being used by the border patrol or customs and

border protection in texas. specifically, what i was told is that the federal aviation administration has failed to issue a certificate of authorization for the flight of these unmanned aerial vehicles in commercial aerospace. i wonder if you could tell us what the holdup is and what the plan is to fix that, because it seems to me that getting those predators, those drums, available to fly and provide that intelligence is very important, and the faa appears to be blocking it. >> this is an issue pending in the faa. the plain fact of the matter is that the texas air space is more crowded than the other air space that needs to be protected along the border, and had more predetermined certification is already in place. the faa has to go in and carve out, as i understand it, space

for the predator. but that is underway and we have urged them and said that we would very much like to be able to deploy the predator there. >> well, i know we have been talking about this -- not you and me but all of us, for some time. it seems like the delay keeps extending on and on. i would ask for your help to try to expedite this. i intend to ask the faa to come to my office and explain what their posture is and what the delay -- why the delay. i am very concerned that some of the assets that could be deployed to help not only quell the violence in mexico but also keep our borders secure are not being deployed because of unnecessary foot dragging. i mentioned some of the spillover effect of the violence in mexico. i also was advised in some of my meetings in el paso that there are as many as 20,000, perhaps

more, is placed mexican citizens that are living with relatives and others in el paso, on the u.s. side. senator graham mentioned that in juarez, where 700 people have been killed so far this year right across the river from el paso, that the mayor of juarez lives in el paso, in the united states, because it -- because he fears for his safety. i mention the spillover of hospitals, but obviously in schools children are being registered in the united states, in el paso. the people moving into homes and rental property in order to protect themselves -- this is a very serious problem, as i know you recognize, and we have to find a way to do more to help mexico. one last thing -- and to help ourselves.

one last thing. what kind of cooperation does your department get from the department of defense? i am thinking not just about troops. i am talking about assets. i mentioned unmanned aerial vehicles. other radar assets the united states military has developed in the course of our conflict in afghanistan and iraq, which could be state of the art technology that could be a big help -- could you explain to me what the conversation has been, what kind of cooperation? or is there no coordination or collaboration between dhs and the department of defense? >> two points, senator. one is i think your observation bears repeating. that is by helping mexico we help ourselves. particularly, our assistance to -- our assistance through marida and other means and helps us.

these cartels impact us. that is why we view them as a homeland security issue. secondly, we have good cooperation with dod. secretary gates was with us. we had a high-level contact meeting in mexico city. there are ongoing operational things that are being done, and exchanges of things like technology. we have very good cooperation there. >> i again commend you and the administration for treating this so seriously. i would just like to respectfully suggest to our chairman and our current chair that it might be good to have all members of the senate, on a bipartisan basis, briefed in a classified setting on what is going on in mexico, what our united states involvement is. frankly, i think this represents a huge threat not only to mexico but also to american citizens,

and not just along the border. finally, let me say that in fiscal year 2009 there were 556,000 apprehensions of people coming across the southern border. i believe my number is correct, which is down considerably from its height. but i do not think it is anywhere near the point where we can say our border is secure. would you agree with that? if you do, what additional resources do you need in order to secure our border? >> i think we always are working to make the actual physical security of the border more complete, but i would say that not only has significant progress been made in all of the sectors of the border, but you can show that it is better than it was two years ago, three years ago, five years ago, and the like. i think we need to continue to make sure that we sustain the

border patrol presence, that we continue to look at the technology dollars we have appropriated and make sure they are being deployed in the right way with the most effective kinds of technologies, and that there will be different technologies in different areas of the border because of the different terrain involved, among other things, and that we look at infrastructure in the right way to deploy infrastructure terri. interior enforcement is part of the puzzle. it is what we do at the border. interior enforcement and how that is done is the package we are implementing. >> i look forward to working with you to make sure you get the resources you need to get the job done, and i appreciate your commitment to that objective. mr. chairman, i would like to ask unanimous consent that three letters be made part of the record.

one is from sylvester reyez to the president of the united states, dated march 18. the others are from the university medical center of el paso. all pertain to the spillover effects of the ongoing cartel- related violence near el paso. >> without objection, they will be made a part of the record. >> thank you very much. senator specter. madam secretary, thank you for being here. i noticed a lot of focus on the southwest border. i have to tell you i came in from a hearing on a national tourism with ken burns. it was an alarming change of pace. my first question is if thank you for the work you did with the orphans in haiti and the

adoptions, in granting humanitarian parole and working with us. there are many happy kids and have the minnesota families that had pending adoptions that were nearly complete when the tragedy happened there. if it was not for your good work and secretary clinton's, i do not think the kids would be there with those families. you will never meet those kids, but you change their lives forever, so thank you for that. i want to specifically ask about the follow-up on some of the christmas day bombing work. we talked about that the last time you were here. we talked about the airport screening procedures. i wondered about the security lapse with that document being shown. that would be the disclosure of the tea s.a. screening procedures when the -- of the tsa screening procedures when

the confidential document was placed on line. also, what is happening with the airport screening and the installation of some of the new screening? >> let me get back to you on the tsa issues. there is an action taken, but i do not have that at my fingers. airport screening -- quite a bit has been done. we have accelerated the deployment of ait machines. we have increased explosive trace detection, k-9 officers, and other security officers in our domestic airports. we have also embarked on a global initiative to raise world aviation security standards, because what was clear on christmas or became clear on christmas is that once you get into an airplane in any airport in the world you potentially have access to the entire system. working with iteo, which is the

u.n.'s aviation branch, we have worked with other countries. we just had a meeting with nigeria. we will have a meeting in the middle east in the next coming weeks. all are geared toward an international global consensus on what everybody needs to do to increase aviation security. >> very good. i wanted to give another thank you for the work of the muck. as you know, the red river flooding and the near miss last time and this time -- i think the planning and all the work we had done with the muck, some of the work that was done in the interim, smaller things worked out. we have a bigger thing with flood diversion and we need for the long term -- that we need

for the long term. i wanted to ask you about levy certifications. fema is working with communities across minnesota to reassure them about their flood protection levies. they get into their community by boat, because they are surrounded by a ring indydyke. there were given until april 30 to be compliant with the mop requirements. although they intend to comply, there have been issues with finding the funds necessary to pay for the technical advisers and engineers necessary to complete the certification in some towns. in most instances, the army corps of engineers constructed these levees but does not have the resources to complete the work necessary for fema and certification -- for fema certification. i know this is not unique. do you know how the department

has been handling these situations? they are doing their best to comply. we do not want them to be punished if they are surrounded by water. >> my understanding is that there are several pieces of legislation moving through, looking at the national flood insurance program overall, which is really the connection with the whole of the issue and let the certification -- the whole levy issue and levy certification. this is enormously complicated, enormously expensive, and enormously important. there are lots of issues we will need to work through with the congress and with people like you to get this right, because there are many communities across the country that are now looking at that april 30 deadline and going, "what do we do next?" there is legislation moving through. we are providing assistance with that legislation. >> back to travel.

we finally passed the travel promotion act. you and i talked about this. i am not sure if i got you that movie yet, but if not i will get it to you tomorrow. it is a movie for greetings to be potentially used in the airports for international visits. it is a beautiful film. we showed a year ago. it is the wonders of our country. we are trying to process foreign visas more quickly with resources we will have from that $10 fee on foreign visitors. i want you to work with us on this. that is not the number-one thing on everyone's mind, but i remind my colleagues that everyone% we lost in international tourism since 9/11, that we lost 21% of the market, is a lot of jobs in this country. as we look for ways to further this economy, we are excited about the travel promotion act.

>> as the former governor of a state that relied heavily on tourism dollars, i appreciate the importance of that. >> the last thing is to follow up listening to senator gramm's question to senator cornyn. since you have come in, you have worked very hard on these border issues, specifically the drug enforcement issues. you have had a laser focus on that we had not seen before. i wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about the difference between what was going on under some of your predecessors with the border and with some of the law enforcement issues in mexico, and what you have been doing now. >> thank you. let me just say that one of the key things that is going on now is the cooperation with mexico. one of the things that does not get counted is the amount of law enforcement resources mexico itself is deploying to the border. for example, we are going to

begin helping them train their first ever border patrol. it is not just going to be our border patrol on this side. they will have border patrol on their side. it is those kind of things -- we want to 21st century border zone protecting south and north. it needs to marry up with an immigration system that works. as we know, that immigration system itself needs to be reformed by the congress. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. madam secretary, thank you again for your service. i know in your reza made that you live for a while -- i know in your resume that you lived for a while in pennsylvania, new york, and new mexico. how much credit can pennsylvania take for you? >> some pennsylvania's want to take a lot and some would rather not. i learned how to read in pennsylvania. i lived there for several years

, nursery school, kindergarten, and first grade. >> well, we are proud of you. >> thank you very much. >> the issue as to what has happened in arizona has caused a great deal of concern in many corners. i know that president obama has been anxious to move ahead on immigration reform. we came very close in 2006, when both houses passed bills. the senate passed a comprehensive bill. the house focused only on border protection. we could not get a conference convened. nothing happened. now, arizona has legislated in a way which has drawn a lot of questions -- a lot of criticism.

the impact of what the law contains could be very, very serious in terms of what happens with the relations between the hispanic community and the people who are so heavily pressing on enforcement measures which may be unconstitutional. on their face, they appear to have that significant risk of racial profiling. you of course have intimate knowledge, having been governor to terms -- governor two terms. how serious as a matter of race relations in arizona, and the temper of the community, is it

that the federal government move ahead to legislate -- to impose appropriate standards, contrasting with what the arizona law has? >> senator, in my view, one of the motivations behind the arizona law was frustrations with the perception that congress was not moving on this issue at all and that the state would have to move in the absence of congressional movement. i know the president is very interested in reaching out for a bipartisan consensus to see if we can move an immigration bill through. senator gramm expressed doubts as to whether there were 60 votes in the senate for that, but i think the message sent from arizona was that movement needs to a car -- that this --

was that movement needs to occur. >> to what extent is there a concern with civil unrest that may occur with the enforcement of this log? -- this law? >> i think there are a lot of issues if this law goes into effect. again, the effective date is not until 90 days after the session and. but if it goes into effect, i think there are a lot of questions about what the real impact on the street will be. they are unanswerable right now. >> my state has a considerable latino/hispanic population. i hear a lot of concern, a lot of anger. when you start getting really tough with high handed tactics which are authorized by this law

-- the racial profiling -- it puts added stress on congress. we have been flatly derelict in not acting up till now. those who search for 60 votes might find it easier to locate them in the face of that kind of a problem, so i am interested in what you think about it. you know the temper down there a lot better than those of us who have only been inside the beltway. >> senator, i really appreciate it. i think there is a lot of cause for concern in a lot of ways on this bill and what impact would be if it was to actually go into effect. i think it signals once again a frustration with the failure of the congress to move. i will work with any member of the congress and have been working with several members of

the congress on actual language about what a bipartisan bill could and should contain. >> what can the federal government do, madam secretary, to deal with the potential for racial profiling and other and constitutional aspects of the arizona law, short of superseding it? >> i think the department of justice is actually looking at the law, as to whether it is susceptible to challenge later on, as applied under several different legal theories. i frankly do not know the status of their thinking right now. >> shifting to the issue of our overall relations with mexico, we passed nafta over a lot of concerns and objections.

the thought was expressed at the time that to stimulate economic development and prosperity, raising the standard of living in mexico, would be beneficial to the united states -- would limit immigration, limit illegal immigration. it could have an impact on the drug wars, which are ferocious. how helpful has nafta been, madam secretary? you have been very close to it. aside from being better than it might have been, has it had any significant effect on improving the situation in mexico? we were looking for that cultural benefit in the united states. >> senator, i believe nafta has had beneficial impact, but i

also believe that the mexican economy still has not created the number of jobs it needs to create overall, so that we still must be aware not just of illegal immigration but jobs that are created by the drug cartels themselves, including the production of drugs, not just trafficking in drugs. again, it is very important for us, i believe, to work closely with mexico. they are the number one or two trading partner of 22 states in the united states. to the extent that their economy and our economies have trade and other relationships on going, that needs to be an important part of our dialogue. >> there is no doubt that nafta has benefited mexico. has nafta benefited the united states?

>> senator, i believe it has, in the sense that it has added to the trade and commerce in mexico. that relates to jobs within the united states itself. >> the think economically it is a good philosophy for the united states? >> i would say, senator, that i have checked numbers. in part, but it is hard to say how the recession has affected everything. i can say it would be a lot worse without nafta. >> no doubt, it would be a lot worse without it. the question looms. there are still a lot of undercurrents of dissatisfaction with nafta from the start. the question arises to what extent it has benefited the united states economically. the collateral question -- has

it really help mexico on the other items which we had hoped for -- the drug war, the border migration, and so on? >> some of these questions might better be addressed with some of my colleagues on the economic side. let me tell you on the securities side. -- the security side, and the need to be able to work closely with mexican law enforcement -- that relationship is as strong as i have ever seen it. >> thank you very much, madame secretary. we appreciate your being here and staying so long. u.s. seen many senators come and go. >> thank you, senator. host: [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010]

>> tonight, almost 3000 journalists, politicians, and celebrities will gather at the hilton for the white house correspondents association annual dinner. our coverage of the event includes remarks by president obama and tonight show host jay leno. that is live, starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern, on c-span. >> what i think is vital now is that americans agree to talk to the taliban leadership. >> in 2000, ahmed rashid wrote about the rise of osama bin london. the 10th anniversary edition of his book looks at what is next. >> no, a senate hearing on the

commodity futures trading commission and the securities and exchange commission. witnesses include mary schapiro. the committee is chaired by illinois senator durvin. -- durbin. this is about 50 minutes. >> the budget request would allow us to better pursue our mission of facilitating capital formation and regulating markets. when i joined the commission, we were emerging from an economic crisis. markets were trying to regain a firm footing. confidence in government generally and the sec specifically was badly shaken. thanks to the song support this -- the strong support this subcommittee has provided, we have made significant changes to

virtually every aspect of our operation. we brought in new leadership, streamlined procedures, and reformed operations. we employ new technologies and initiated a significant investor focus rulemaking agenda. we undertook a top to bottom review leading to a restructuring. things limiting internal communication were torn down. a layer of management was eliminated, freeing professionals for front-line duty. we created specialized units that will build a focus to market abuse and structured products. these efforts are paying dividends. thanks to the support of this committee, among the highlights of my first year, we sought twice as many temporary restraining orders and asset freezes in 2009 as 2008. we issued over twice as many orders of investigation. we won $500 million more in disgorgement orders. penalty orders more than

doubled. we filed an% more assets overall, including twice as many involving -- we filed a 10% more assets overall, including twice as many involving ponzi schemes. our staffing -- we are staffing with people who bring us new and different perspectives and expertise. we have made real progress, but restoring investor confidence and building trust and financial institutions and markets will require a sustained regulatory commitment. financial year 2011 will be a critical year in continuing our birds to invigorate the commission and its programs -- in continuing our efforts to invigorate the commission and its programmings. the number of advisers has increased 20% and assets under management have grown by $20 trillion. we monitor more than 35,000

regulated entities. it was only this year that the sec staff members return to the level last seen in 2005. in the intervening years, tight budgets forced us to cut investments in technology by more than half. this subcommittee's support has allowed us to reverse those harmful trends, and we thank you deeply. the president's 2011 budget will allow us to continue on this impact. more staff will mean a deeper pool of expertise, as we hire specialists with experience in today's markets. more staff will also mean more investigations and smaller gaps between the number of examiners and the firms they examine, and greater capacity to respond. the budget will also provide a needed $12 million increase in information technology. our top i.t. priority is completion of a new system for reviewing complaints, tips, and

leads provided by whistleblowers and other sources. we're creating a searchable database for existing tips and complaints. we will add risk analytics to help as quickly and efficiently identify high-value tips and search for trends and patterns in the data. we are enhancing collection analysis and distribution of disclosure documents filed with the commission. this will allow us to monitor trends, search for risk, and track systemic changes. we plan to improve the case management tools available to our examination and enforcement program. while we will never match the technology available to the institutions we regulate and the law firm's we face, the ability to search and use the mountains of data we collect will make our team more competitive. new technology will be accompanied by comprehensive training, allowing staff to navigate the evolving financial and burman's the monitor. in the year ahead, we will

continue our pursuit of rulemaking that looks after the interests of investors and response to changes in the american financial marketplace. goals include a review already under way of the evolving equity market structure, helping shareholders exercise their rights, and giving investors better information to make decisions involving investments in municipal and other securities. i am pleased with the progress we have made, but recognize the work remains to continue to restore investor confidence. the funding level of the budget request is critical for us if we are to continue to improve our it performance in a complex financial world. thank you. i would be happy to answer any questions. >> thank you, chairman. i have just finished michael lewis's book, "the big short." it is an eye opener of what was going on at the time this bubble was created. one of the areas i have heard

about many times that he made reference to was the work of credit rating agencies, the fact that some of the credit ratings that were given were misleading to say the least. since the beginning of the credit crunch in early 2007, these agencies have come under fire for inflated ratings of mortgage-backed securities that did not reflect the financial stability of our worst. last june, as questions about what you were doing to restore confidence in credit rating agencies, what improvements were needed. in your budget justification submitted in february, you indicate on page 4 that the fiscal year 2011 budget will enable you to carry out a more robust oversight function for credit rating agencies and conduct examinations. half of the registered nationally reagan -- half of the national league registered --

half of the nationally registered agencies will be investigated next year. next year. the credit reform act gave the agency and the ability to regulate internal processes of nationally registered statistical organizations, such as record-keeping and policies against conflict of interest. you contend, "the sec never received any dedicated funding to carry out these new responsibilities, and has been forced to divert positions from other programs in order to staff this vital function." i am puzzled by that statement. in fiscal year 2009, congress provided the sec within $970 million budget authority, up $57 million more than the president requested. in fiscal year 2010, the current year, congress provided $1.10 billion, $85 billion above the

-- $85 million above the president's request. if you see this obligation as a high priority, why were you not able to devote some of the increased funds we provided for this function in the fiscal year 2009 and 2010? >> i do not have the statement in front of me, but let me assure you we are committed to aggressive oversight of credit rating agencies. we've created a new examination branch for those agencies, and our goal is to examine all the agencies on a regular basis. we are committed to solving the problems we have seen with respect to credit rating agencies. >> is this a typo where it says you will start the work next year? >> we have already begun the work. >> this was in the budget justification materials given to the oversight committee. >> i can assure you this work has begun. we have a new head of our office of compliance inspections.

credit rating agencies are the focus of that office. >> we have justification materials. i would like to share them with you. when you have said was not consistent with what was given to the committee. let me ask about another issue. in the wake of the ponzi s cheme by bernie madoff, the sec has undertaken various things, including "advocating for a whistleblower program." as part of the financial reform legislation, you have requested expanded authority to reward whistle-blowers to bring forward substantial evidence about federal securities violations. current law permits you to award a bounty to a person who provide such information, leading to the recovery of the civil penalty from an inside trader, or a person who tripped and permission from an inside trader, or from a person who directly controlled an inside

trader. on march 29, the sec inspector general issued a report on how the program is working at your agency. he noted that while the sec has had a bounty program in place for more than 20 years forwarding whistle-blowers' for insider trading tips there have been very few payments over the program. likewise, you have not received a large number of applications from individual seeking a bounty over this period. he also found the program is not widely recognized inside or outside your agency. the inspector general indicated that although the sec has expanded authority to award whistle-blowers who bring forward evidence about federal securities law violations, the current program is not fundamentally well designed to be successful. he called for a long list of improvements to make the application more user-friendly, establish internal policies to assist staff in assessing contributions made by

whistleblowers, and making award determinations, to routinely provide status reports, track the applications for a timely review. the idea that the sec has begun to take steps to rock -- to work on this was a lower program, including consultations with the irs and other agencies -- after the embarrassment of bernie madoff, this report is troubling to me. it indicates that the level of energy which we expected in response to madoff and the embarrassment he brought to your agency and our government would create a whistle blower program to try to save some of the investors and savers who could be exploited by people like him. >> i would like to address that. when i arrived, i asked that we build a more effective was lower program simply because

the insider-trading program has not been effective. that is in part because insider- trading is generally discovered as a result of surveillance done by the exchanges or surveillance that is done by the sec itself. we needed a program that was more effective and covered more than insider-trading, which is a small proportion of the cases we bring every year. the staff crafted the whistle- blower legislation that we believe will be more effective, addresses the issues that are raised in the inspector general's report, and will allow us to leverage the information whistle-blowers' bring to the sec on a broad range of potential violations. >> you are asking for expanded authority to reward whistle- blowers. why would you ask for expanded authority? >> i am not discounting what they do. i believe we can make tremendous use of tips and complaints from whistle-blowers. in the narrow context of insider-trading, which is the only place the program can be

applied, it is not effective. when the authority to craft a program that will allow us to make -- allow us to give whistle-blowers' more meaningful recovery on their claims and will cover more than insider- trading, which frequently is not a whistle-blower coming to us. that tends to be detected from a normal trading activity in a stock prior to the announcement of a merger or an acquisition that is detected by exchange surveillance systems, referred to the sec, and prosecuted by us. the program was flawed in many ways, which is why we asked to expand the program, make it more robust, and have the authority to do that. >> is this report on the right track of what you need to do within your agency? >> of the inspector general's report is on the right track. many of the recommendations are the result of talking extensively with our staff about how to make this program better.

>> senator collins. >> there have been three issues in the press lately about the sec that i want to ask you about today to get your answers on the record and perhaps put an end to some of the speculation about one of these issues. that is the first one that i am going to begin with. there has been speculation reported in the financial press that the sec's case against goldmansachs was somehow motivated by the timing of the financial reform bill that the senate will shortly consider. for the record, was the timing of the sec fifth enforcement action against goldman in any way connected to the senate's

actions on financial reform? >> absolutely not. i put out a statement to make that clear. we do not tie our enforcement actions to a legislative calendar. we bring our cases when we have the law and the fact that support our cases. that is what happened here, as has happened in more than a dozen other crisis cases we have brought in the last year. >> i share your view on that issue but i think it is important for me to ask you for the record. >> i appreciate the opportunity. >> the second question i want to ask you have to do with the disciplining of the sec employees who are involved in the case. i am appalled at those findings by the inspector general because it was not just one or two people. according to the ig's report, 33

staffers at the agency were found to have looked at porn on their computers at work over the past five years, and 17 of them were highly paid employees that were earning between $99,000.220 $2 thousand a year. -- earning between $99 thousand and $22 -- and $202 thousand a year. i am curious about criticisms of the sec's failure to uncover the madoff ponzi scheme. has the sec taken disciplinary actions against employees as a result of the ig's findings in the case? >> i am happy to respond to both

of those. in the first instance, it was the agency's own filters that detected the activity that was reported by us to the inspector general. there were 33 persons cited in the report over a five-year period. a number of those were outside consultants. that said, i share your discussed with his conduct. it is unacceptable at the securities and exchange commission or anywhere else. we will deal swiftly and severely within the remit of the federal employment rules and laws with anyone who abuses this or our resources. last week, i put out a message to all employees, making it clear that anyone who abuses our resources in this manner will be subject to termination. we will deal with this very swiftly and severely. all employees are on notice with respect to that. many of these actions were a

number of years ago. disciplinary actions have already been taken out one level or another. we a significantly ramped up the potential penalties. -- we have significantly ripped up the potential penalties. with respect to madoff, as a result of the investigation of the agency's failure to detect the fraud, there was a recommendation that we consider whether discipline was appropriate with respect to employees. in the enforcement division, of the 20 employees who were involved in madoff examinations, 15 have already left the agency. with respect to the others that are left, we have put into place a disciplinary process with the rules that apply to all federal workers in all situations like this. the process is fair and collaborative, but appropriate. we're going through that right now. that is under way and i cannot

comment on any specific actions, but can assure you that a disciplinary process is underway. . .

>> between 4.5 and six months after those reports were issued, the office has completed corrective actions on 35 of the 69 recommendations. we are awaiting concurrence on 19 of those. the rest are substantially under way. i think we're making significant progress. with respect to the employees, as i mentioned, a number of them have already left. we're looking at whether personnel actions should be taken. there is an established process we are legally required to follow, as he would in any employment issue involving a federal worker. that process is well under way.

we would be happy, upon its completion, to report back to the committee. >> i have several constituents from mississippi who called and came up to washington to visit with me and other members of congress and the senate to tell us about their experiences in the the really serious financial dislocations that have been caused by this scheme. it is really heartbreaking to realize that these people were really innocent victims of somebody's greed and corruption, and i want to be sure that whatever can be put in place in the future to prevent this from happening is acted on and done quickly. can you assure the committee that that is the step and the intent of the sec in this case?

>> senator, absolutely. as soon as i arrived last january, i put into motion a number of things that we hope will reduce the chances of a tragedy like this ever happening again. which changed leadership across the agency. we restructure our enforcement division. we are bringing in new people that have new skills that are better able to understand some of the information that bernard madoff managed to fool the staff with. we are doing much better training. our employees have gone through training. we have put in place new rules that will allow us to leverage the work of accounting firms when an investment adviser custodies assets with nfl it, which is what happened in the situation, will there now required to have a surprise audit.

that will allow us to have access to that information immediately, so that we can look for suspicious activity. as i mentioned in my statement, we have put in place a system to better track tips, complaints and referrals, so that the confirmation the staff had about madoff would have a far less chance of slipping through the class -- the cracks. we are working day and night to minimize the chances of a horrific event like this ever happening again. i share your deep concern about it. >> i appreciate your response, and the obvious interest you have in helping to change things so that it will be less likely, we hope not likely at all, for something like this to happen in the future. i wish there was some way that we could provide restitution, or through a request from the administration, congress could provide you with some authority

is to help do something to compensate these victims for this terrible scheme. >> bernie madoff victims are entitled to recovery. it will not come anything close to replenishing the funds that many of them have lost, or thought they had earned. i believe that this point, the civic trusty has paid out somewhere around $680 million. the trustee has gathered about $1.5 billion. it is a long and difficult process, but it is well under way. >> thank you, very much. >> welcome. congratulations on the earnestness with which you have taken over this assignment. it is desperately needed,

because not only the people lose a lot of money, they lost faith -- faith in government. at the same time, it is a subject of interest of mine over some years. i still sit on the board of the columbia business school, my all modern. in 2001, -- my all modernma mat. in 2001, i was able to share. -- chair. well-liked claim some clairvoyance, the fact of the matter is i saw a situation developing that i found a very discouraging. we have seen that in the last

year, when looking back at the testimony given to people who served earlier, that direct criticism that there was responses to questions were people did not know, or were not aware with whistle-blowers presenting fairly significant evidence. is that still a source of information? do we still get that kind of information? what happens when you get something? >> senator, we get hundreds of thousands of tips and complaints each year. when of the problems i discovered last year was that they came in from many different sources -- investors, other regulators, other regulated entities, and they came in all over the sec to. there was no mechanism to

centralize this and connect the dots that might provide useful information about a trend or groin product -- problem record growing problem. we spend the money that this committee gave the agency last year in technology dollars to begin to build a repository for all the tips, complaints and referrals that come into the agency. the next phase is to ask -- is at risk analytics. we have aided -- we created an office that is charged for the responsibility for knowing the data that is in there, understanding what chris highest level of risk for the investment public, following those leads, tree-in them, and make sure that we asked them -- act on them as fast as we can. there are hundreds of

thousands, and i cannot tell you not miss another one. >> would be considered a fairly reliable source of inquiry -- this would be considered a fairly reliable source of inquiry. the sec will look to these things there was -- a pathetic response to what action was not taken in one case. i see your budget request clearly identifies enforcement as the sec's top priority. obviously, it is brought about by the years of neglect that preceded this. how'd you stimulate your people to go after these things when the culture before was so

neglectful? are you able to keep track of what is going on? >> it is a great question, and i do not mean to sound policy and nash, but the culture of the agency was submerged a little that. there is tremendous enthusiasm again for our enforcement role. we took the handcuffs off of our enforcement division. we told the staff ticket issued subpoenas without waiting for the five commissioners to sit in a meeting and vote on it. it took months of of the investigative process. we enabled our staff to negotiate penalties with public companies instead of getting permission in advance, again, speed the process, and powering them to do their job. we created five specialized

units and we're having tremendous success recruiting people that will focus on specific areas and get beat and knowledgeable about structured products, has said back management -- asset management. we have the specialized units that i believe will be far more efficient in bringing cases. betook a layer of management out of the enforcement division and put hundreds of talented people back on the front lines of doing investigations. we have done the most significant restructuring of the enforcement program in 30 years. i think we are already seeing it pay dividends in the level of the complexity of the cases we are bringing. if you look at the major cases, they are quite extraordinary. for example, in 2009, over 2008, we shut down twice as many ponzi schemes far earlier than the madoff scheme would have been shut down.

>> i just ask the chairman, if i might, take a moment for musing and say that as you look at executive compensation, which i know is one of the things that you see, and i ran a pretty good sized company before coming here. i was very conscious of the things that we did to stimulate attitudes within the working population of the company. when we put any money into the outside world to try to help as we have effectively, to me, a termination bonus ought not to be a market based on the spot -- stock price, but based on what good the individual did for the company, instead of paying a

bonus immediately, trail it out over a five-year period. that is when the big bonus ought to come. i do not know what right you have as the sec to make that recommendation on that basis or to even think about it, but i wish the public consciousness could understand. >> while i do not think we can dictate the terms of compensation arrangements, we did approve new rules that are in effect for this current proxy system -- season that require the board of directors to explain to shareholders how the compensate risk-taking within the corporation. how they might -- this might incentivize short -- how they might incentivized short-term risk taking. i think it is disclosure based, as much of our rules are. i think it is forcing boards to think about what they want to

say about the compensation programs and how they want to explain the linkage between compensation and risk, which we have seen to be a strong link and one that had very profound deleterious affects at the end of the day. there is much fire. >> chairwoman schapiro, he'll announce the appointment of a new chief compliance officer to serve as an internal watchdog. in your own words, you said this had to be a world-class compliance program. there was an article that followed the decision, once they found out where this compliance officer would be standing on the pecking order, or the administrative stairsteps of your agency and there was a concern that this person was in

a post buried within the office of ethics council, and did not have an independent status, and did not report to you or other high-ranking official the question was raised about whether or not this was a world- class attempt to deal with a serious problem that might involve a conflict of the end this tragic conflict of interest within your own agency. >> that article was what off the mark -- was off the market. there was not a system when i arrived for monitoring employee stock transactions. i immediately brought in a contractor to help us develop a system that requires every employee to enter all of their stock holdings and securities accounts into a centralized system. it enables employees to pre- clear any trade, and ultimately, we will receive from

brokerage firms, to put it copies of the employees' statements. we're working to bolster the existing rules that apply across the government, so that no employee will be committed to trade in the stock of any company under investigation by the sec, whether or not they had any knowledge of it at all. that will require clique -- pre clearance and certification. we are negotiating those rules right now. the person we hired is responsible for that system. we have an entire office of ethics within the sec. i meet with them regularly. i met with the new compliance officer this morning, but her responsibility with respect to that system, it is not a chief compliance officer in a sense of one in a brokerage firm, which i think that article was try to equate. >> can this person report directly to you? >> i met with yesterday. she knows my door is open any

time. because she is responsible for managing the system within the context of the many other ethical views that go on within the agency, it made sense to put her in the office of the general counsel. i would have no problem changing the reporting line, as i think she would get more attention there. if she knows he can come to me any time, as any employee does on any issue that is of concern to them. >> but the asking about the report released from the inspector general's office above the stanford case and the fact that this case -- alan stanford was indicted in a $7 billion fraud case, accused of fleecing more than 21,000 people primarily to the sale of c. d.'s. the fort worth office was aware that robert allen stanford was

likely operating a ponzi scheme, but the report states that no meaningful effort was made to investigate. the offices began looking at the companies in 1998. the report also said that sec supervisors were more interested in quicker turnaround cases at the time, not the kind of operations needed. >> to make it worseto make it we #later went to work for stanford before he was told to stop. like the case of madoff, this report offers another reminder of potential write-downs in a regulatory oversight. i recognize that the circumstances of this case preceded your arrival, yet cases like this can fester and bubble up to service -- surface years

later. what controls the sec have in place now to ensure that the mess like the madoff and stanford cases do not reoccur? what else should be done? >> let me speak specifically to stanford. i've talked quite a bit about the changes we put in place. with respect to the conduct that was discussed by the inspector general in the stanford case, there were many missed opportunities, without a doubt before the agency took stanford up seriously and honestly. -- earnestly. i was not there, so i do not truly understand what happened. i will tell you that we have new leadership across the board in this agency, in the inspection program and the enforcement program. we have created escalation committees, so that if the

examiner believes there found a real problem and they are not getting the response they want, they take it to an escalation committee. that will go all the way up into the senior ranks of the organization. we have new management reporting metrics that have been put in place in the enforcement division and a regular review of open matters in both the examination's group and the enforcement group, said that we can't ensure things that are sitting are not sitting for a long time. we could miss something by doing that, but it has to be a conscious decision based on the evidence that is in front of people, and not on neglect. between the leadership changes, the structural changes within enforcement, the straw to change that i anticipate to announce regis vince -- the structural changes that i anticipate to announce, and the new reporting

mechanism within the division, i am hopeful we will never have a repeat of that incident. >> but me say, before turning it over to senator collins, the questions i have asked you today have been pointed. they involve issues that are controversial. it is part of our responsibility, with the oversight of your agency, to ask those questions. there's some in the senate that want us to be taken out of the process. they do not want these questions to be asked. i think that is wrong. we have a responsibility to make sure you do your job and do it well, for to provide you with the resources to achieve your goals. the notion that it is unnecessary for an agency as important as yours is just plain wrong. i hope we can continue a positive, constructive relationship. you can count on this, as long as the appropriations committee is involved, each year you will face questions the to the heart

of your activity and be held accountable, as we are held accountable. >> i appreciate that. i always endeavored to be completely transparent. this is an institution that must always learn from its mistakes and that is my commitment to you. >> i still have confidence in your leadership, but we have a responsibility on our side of the table as well. senator collins. >> mr. chairman, let me first wholeheartedly agree with the statement that you just made. i'm going to bring up one of those kinds of questions right now. in 2004, at the direction of congress, the sec established the office of global security risk management. this was created and probably the chairman was involved, because i know this is an issue that this matter to him for a long time, it was created to protect investors from the risk

associated with investing in companies doing business in nations that are designated as state sponsors of terrorism by the department of state. the office within the sec has failed to vigorously carried out its mandate, and that is, its most important man did, it is to ensure that all companies that are sold and american exchanges that operate in those countries are disclosing their activities to investors. i know the chairman and i have supported legislation that has allowed state pension funds to divest their holdings in such cases. why has the sec not been more aggressive in following through by issuing regulations to ensure

that corporations do disclose the information about their activity in such countries to their investors? >> senator, the office was created in 2004. in that. between then and now, that office has reviewed about 800 corporate filings that disclosed doing business on some level with iran, syria, or cuba. the disclosure requirements are based on materiality. that is something we can change. there is not a separate line item disclosure for any level of business with one of those countries. we look at materiality, both quantitatively and qualitatively -- the amount of business it has done one of those countries' relative to the size of that company. is it humanitarian, or could it

have a military application? is it continuous or isolated? we do this materiality analysis, and if the staff determines that the contact with one of these countries is material, then disclosure is required. we are looking at whether this should beat line-item disclosure without regard to the materiality of the conduct between the public company and one of these four nations that are currently on the list. >> let me follow up on that because i am told that in november of 2007, the sec issued a constant release seeking comment on whether to develop a better mechanism to allow investors to have better disclosures in this area, hand and that the comment period

ended in january of 2008 and that the sec has not taken any action since that time. >> that is the history as i understand it, and have under -- i have asked the staff to go back to that. again, we're looking at whether line-item disclosure, as opposed to our normal disclosure. >> why has there been no action for two years? more than two years? >> i think there has been a general view that our disclosure system is about disclosure that helps people make investment decisions, the right decisions about purchasing or selling a financial asset, and it is a and the men in this amount of business that is being done -- de minimus amount of business that is being done.

we're revisiting that issue now. >> what i would say, and i thank you, that is a good point, but you ought to complete the work on it, so that investors do have access to that information because there are many investors who will not want to do business with a company, or will not want to buy shares in a company that is doing business with one of these countries. >> if i could add one thing, it becomes the law with respect to divestiture, are very recent filing reviews show that two mutual-fund have actually relied on the safe harbor to divest themselves of stock of companies doing business sudan. i think that is very good news. >> i do, too.

yesterday, at the hearings on goldman sachs, i ask what i thought was a straightforward question to several of the bankers. i asked them whether they considered themselves to have a duty to act in the best interest of their clients, the kind of fiduciary obligation that investment advisers have. to say that they danced around and evaded that would be an understatement. the fact is that the law currently does not impose that kind of a fiduciary obligation on a broker dealers. in your judgment, should the law imposed fiduciary obligation on broker-dealers? >> it should, and we have been advocating for the regulatory reform bill to require, that both investment and buyers -- we

discussed this, at a minimum, the retail public is entitled to know that the financial services professional -- professional setting across the table from them put the customer's interest ahead of the rhone in all circumstances there are some context that can be disclosed to the duty that since the -- to do that exists on -- disclosed. the duty that exists on one side, clinton does not exist on the other. we need to make this a fiduciary duty. i'm hopeful that the senate bill, which does not have that permission right now, will emerge with that provision in place. we're required to do a study. we're happy to study the issue. i will say that the sec contacted to do a study of this

issue, so there is a lot of work out there. we will work which will look at it again. we will hope that it will trigger the ability to read the rules. my personal bias, i will tell you, that is necessary. >> in writing this new rule, should we distinguish between individual retail investors, for whom having that obligation is perhaps even more important because they are less sophisticated, arguably, the most institutional investors, or should it apply across the board? >> i think in the first instance, we have got to take care of retail investors. this is a disgraceful situation in many ways. i would also note that in the senate agriculture bill, there is a fiduciary duty day of to municipalities paid that seems

to be a good idea. i think we could step this up over time to be broader, but i would start with retail. >> thank you. if you would provide the subcommittee with a copy of the study, that would be helpful to us. mr. chairman, i apologize for exceeding my time. i am going to submit a question of an allied capital, that case, which was also criticized, and some other questions as well. thank you for the additional time. >> center collins, thank you so much. i applaud your last line of questioning and i believe you touched on something that is essential. we might be able to find some bipartisan ground to share. i'm glad to hear that the chairman believes it is a wise undertaking. maybe we could build on that. the record of the subcommittee is going to be open for how many

days? until next wednesday. we may submit written questions and other members may join us. thank you for being with us. keep up your good work. >> thank you. the subcommittee stands adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> this week on america and the courts, the fourth circuit court of appeals judge talks about diversity, his recent appointment, and his experience as the first african-american to serve. america in the courts, tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. tonight, almost 3000 journalists, politicians and celebrities will gather for the white house correspondents

association annual dinner. the coverage of the black-tie event includes remarks by president obama and jay leno. that is live, starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. >> mr. condon, we know that as d.c. dinners these days, almost everyone gets invited. could it expects to a time when not everyone got a chance to go? >> certainly. it is a dinner that -- despite people thinking that the hollywood influence is new, it actually started with a big hollywood influence. not everybody went. it was just white house correspondent. in the early days, in the 1940's, the entertainment was provided by the networks in conjunction with the serious. you have frank sinatra, jimmy

durante, bob hope, barbara streisand -- it has always been an important dinner. it has just become what some people call the washington prom. everybody wants the tickets. host: what is different than the entertainment provided now? guest: go into a single comedian did not really start until the reagan presidency. 1983 with mark russell. the years right before that, you had the chicago symphony orchestra, count basie and his orchestra. my favorite -- there was always

an effort to try to find entertainment that the incumbent president would approve of. the had a tough time when it richard nixon was elected from 1969, they sounded out the white house and ended up with disney lance -- disneyland's golden horseshoe revue. host: if i recall, at one time president kennedy said he was not going to go to this event. why was that? guest: that was an important moment one person deserves full credit for that and that is helen thomas. a lot of people have become legend just because they have

been around a long time. helen actually did things. in 1961, members were full members of the association and pay their dues but were not allowed to go to the dinner. it was a stag affair. helen thomas went to peter sallinger and protested it. she insisted that the president be taken to the president. pierre salinger did any president, to his credit, said, they will not have the their next year. nothing was more important to the association then having the president of the united states there, the policy ended. women were then allowed as full participants in the dinner.

helen, in 1975, ended at the first ever woman president of the association. host: have cameras always been a part of this event? gast, no, they had not been allowed in -- guest: no, they had not been allowed in. i push to allow them in. the opposition really came from the broadcast networks who did not want to have to work and complained quite a bit early. i remember walking into the ballroom and showing them, we can put the camera right here in the back. it will not interfere with anybody.

it has become very popular since then. host: as far as the event itself, we think of the dinner as one night. as those who are here in washington, it turned into a several day affair. how did that happen? guest: just in recent years. you started with a vanity fair having a dinner after words and then john mclaughlin started doing a brunch. it basically was because organizations realize that everybody was in town that week. it just sort of happened and developed. you are right. it is something that -- you have events almost every night before hand. host: with what is going on in louisiana, what is the pressure on the president to try to

balance the dressing a serious concern while keeping to the light hearted nature of the event? guest: there is a long tradition of presidents -- if the event is particularly dramatic, it will bypass the humor and completely skip it. president clinton, after the oklahoma city bombing, comes to mind. presidents have to do what is right. i do not think that this is quite the events as, say, an assassination, or the oklahoma city bombing. i would expect the president to say something, make mention of it, as does all to be aware of the suffering and the damage. but i would be surprised if he dropped the humor.

>> a c-span video library lincoln fact. there are nearly 6000 references to lincoln. for a contemporary perspective, there is c-span2 book, "abraham lincoln." >> now, a house hearing on marine animals being held in captivity this comes about two months after a killer whale attacked its trainer. this is two hours and 40 minutes.

>> today's here in will explore the conservation value of all the marine animals in captivity. as everyone here knows, this topic is not without controversy and can become very emotional for some. that controversy and the motion is highlighted and made worse when there are incidents like the february 24 death of the sea world trainer. this tragic incident highlights the potential hazards of working with marine mammals in captivity. i would like to take a moment to express my deepest sympathies to the family, the friends, and co- workers, some of whom are joining us today. the incident also under-scores

the fact that despite what many people think, dolphins and seals are wild, and potentially dangerous animals. this must be considered when developing the standards to evaluate and guide the implementation of the education and conservation programs and public display facilities. the 1994 amendments to the marine mammal protection act designated primary authority for the care of captive animals under the animal welfare act. however, the national marine fishery service maintains responsibility for issuing permits for the take or import of some marine mammals for public display. to obtain a permit, a public display facility must be registered under the animal welfare act, regularly open to

the public, and must offer an education or conservation program, based upon profession recognized standards of the public display community. in the 16 years that a lapsed since these changes to the laws, nffs has not spelled out the criteria for issuing such permits and for modifying, suspending, or revoking a import permit. in addition, the agency apparently has no progress for ongoing evaluation of education and conservation programs and public display facilities. to ensure that they are meeting the standards to the industry has established. today, we will hear testimony from a variety of experts regarding this -- the lead role

making, and explore from a number of prospective the standard for education and conservation programs of public display facilities and the process for evaluating whether the standards are being met. over 16 million people a year see and experience marine mammals and aquariums, zoos, and other venues. for some, it is the primary source of intermission about these creatures, their life history, and the many threats that they face. in light of that, it is imperative that we ensure the conservation and education programs meet the highest professional standards. so, i look forward to hearing from today's witnesses. i now would like to recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee, the gentleman from south carolina, mr. brown.

>> thank you, madame chair. the focus of today's hearing is conservation and education programs for marine mammals. in order to receive a permit, facilities are required to of conservation and education programs said it here to industry standards. the standards were published in 1994 and guides facilities and how to implement conservation and education programs for the visiting public. what some people might not know is that the standards are fluid and have evolved over the years to meet new conservation needs and education requirements. while i understand there are people that did not support the display of marine mammals or any animals in zoos or aquariums, the activities funded by these facilities such as education programs are all important programs to the conservation of marine mammals and other

endangered animals. the rescue and rehabilitation program run by these facilities are crucial to the survival of stranded animals at participating institutions. minute institutions run programs in their own funds. they play in and valuable role for the general public, as it might be the only place for many americans to view marine mammals and learn about conservation needs. the conservation and education programs can help generate the general public put to good will toward marine mammals. madame chair, there are two aquariums in my congressional district. both of these aquariums have boasted a and -- have hosted an educated millions of guests, and of likely inspire the next generation of veterinarians and marine biologist. we also have a sea turtle

hospital where guests can see injured sea turtles being rehabilitated back to health. other aquariums and aquatic theme parks across the nation have inspired the same level of inspiration in future generations, as well as become a strong partner in international conservation community is, all the while private region providing a strong source of employment for the american tourism industry. i like to submit a number of letters for a record, including one from the u.s. chamber of commerce. thank you, madame chair, and i look forward to hearing from witnesses today. i yield back. >> ok.

at this time i would like to recognize the man which the gentleman from michigan, dale kildee. >> thank you, madame chair. michigan, somewhat like bomb -- -- like guam, is a peninsula, almost like an island. we have, in saginaw, a children's zoo which is accredited by the association of zoos and aquariums. we try to keep the highest standards. it is confident that we continue to look at the more we know about how we should have these facilities available to the people. it is better for us. i appreciate very much the hearing we're having today. i ask unanimous consent that my

entire remarks be based in the record. >> hearing and no objections, so ordered. i would also like to recognize the statements of the ranking member, or the letters he is submitting to the committee, hearing no objections, so approved. and i would like to recognize mr. whitman, the gentleman from virginia. you have listed and all -- you have a state and now? thank you. i want to thank all of you for being here and the ranking member as well. now, i like to recognize one of our colleagues, mr. allen grayson to testify as a member of the first panel. you are recognized.

please proceed. >> thank you, madame chair and members of the committee. i want to extend my sincere thanks for allowing me to testify before this esteemed committee of my peers. i am proud to represent for the's eighth congressional district. central florida is home to world-renowned zoos and amusement parks. see world is a crowning jewel among them. i am pleased that julie scardina is here today to share information about the wonderful conservation and education programs offered. the economic impact of sea world is tremendous. see world orlando alone attracts nearly 6 million visitors each year, including my five children. the company is headquartered in orlando, and in addition, they own and operate five other parks in florida.

combined, the park's employ nearly 10,000 people in florida. see world also plays an important role in marine science education. they have partnered with orange county schools. it has provided opportunities for students to protest it in the educational field trips to see world. it also brings structures and resources directly to questions. according to administrators, they enhance student performance on science standardize test. sea world offer students an important opportunity to connect in meaningful ways. let me offer just one example. for the past 10 years, see world has partnered with an elementary school in my district. at that school, 83% of the children are on a reduced

payment lunch program. it is important for the students to get an opportunity to see marine mammals. at an over night field trip, which includes -- which included educational sessions, offered the students a chance to connect with these animals in meaningful, memorable ways. i would be remiss if i did not also mentioned the sea world rescue and rehabilitation efforts. they are the leader in this. when they received a call, a team of animal care experts immediately deployed. they are available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. this is a system that is provided at no cost to the government. their goal is to return them to the wild, however, in a case where the help of an animal

makes that impossible, see world becomes a permanent home. these animals become ambassadors for the species. i want to thank sea world and julie scardina for all that sea world parks and entertainment world does. finally, i would like to commend madeleine bordallo and the subcommittee and all of its members for drawing attention to this important issue. thank you very much. >> i thank the gentleman from the eighth district of florida for testifying this morning, mr. allen grayson. thank you. we appreciate it. i would like to recognize mr. whitman from the virginia. i understand you have an opening statement. >> it is very brief. i want to thank you, madam

chairman. i think it is clear from what we see and hear is that our zoos are very effective in helping people gain a better understanding and appreciation of marine mammals, which is especially important these days with the challenges they face around the world. we are happy to have with us julie scardina who will highlight sea world education efforts. they do have a significant presence around the united states. in my district, they employ over 3000 people. the elements they bring to the table, as far as education programs and i live in the efforts that go into helping the marine mammal species is admirable. we know that they provide a lot of opportunities for schoolchildren to make sure they have learning experiences they would not otherwise have, and make sure that those children that do not otherwise live in areas where they may have this exposure can actually learn

more, understand, and actually experience those areas where they can understand more about what is very important in this whole issue surrounding marine mammals. madam chairman, i really appreciate you taking the time to highlight the importance of the issues surrounding the marine mammals of a number of different levels, and making sure that we put into perspective the efforts to educate our youth and other members of our population as to the importance that marine mammals play in our ecosystem and the things we need to do to make sure we're looking out for their best interests, and to make sure that we broaden people's understanding of the role the have in the ecosystem. >> thank you, mr. whitman, for your opening statement. i would like to introduce the

first panel, as they would come up -- if they would come up to the table as i announced them. mr. eric schwab the. secondly, dr. lori marino a senior lecturer at emory university. the third witness, dr. peter cochrane, -- cochran -- peter corkeron. dr. paul boyle, senior vice president for conservation and education, association of zoos and aquariums. i would like to thank all of our witnesses on the second panel for being hit today. as we began, i would note that the red time in light will indicate when five minutes have passed and your time has

concluded. we would very much appreciate your cooperation in complying with these limits. be assured that your full written statement will be submitted for the hearing record. now, mr. schwab, welcome back to the subcommittee. please begin your testimony. >> madam chairman, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify before it today and marine mammals in captivity. under the marine mammal protection act, noaa has jurisdiction. our mission is to make sure that marine mammals can continue to act a significant function in elements of the ecosystem. we conduct population assessments and use that information to regulate the take

of marine mammals. our activities are widespread and primarily pertain to restoring these mammals and their population in the wild. for example, we oversee the health and response program, developed teams, research and mitigate the impact of vessel traffic and ocean nellie's, connecticut and monitor oil and gas activities and alternative energy exploration, and work under international treaties and agreements to protect marine mammal species outside of u.s. waters. we also enforce a moratorium on the take of marine mammals. what a majority of permits we issue is for scientific issue -- scientific research, which might also issue permits for the import for public display purposes. since 1999, i will note that all

of these public display permits have been for the importation of marine mammals. there has not been a request for take of a wild marine mammals for public display purposes in more than 20 years. our responsibility with respect to public display is to ensure that species in the wild are not adversely effected by removal, that takes are conducted humanely, and that those who apply for permits meet three statutory criteria set forth in the act. these include, offering a program for education or conservation purposes that is based on professionally recognized standards of the public display community. they are registered, or hold a licence under the animal welfare act, and maintain facilities that are open to the public on a regularly scheduled basis, with access that is not limited other than by charging an admission fee. . .

before we grant a permit may for take or permit a marine mammal for display, it must be based on the publicly -- professional- recognized standards. regarding the adequacy of the professionally-recognized standards, the act stipulates that education and conservation programs offered by public display facilities be based on a professionally-recognized standards of the public display community. the standards are set by the industry. congress did not admit -- did not intend for us to regulate

the content of education and conversation -- conservation programs, but deemed that standards approximating those were acceptable. following the 1994 amendments, we asked the association and the alliance a marine mammal parks and aquariums to prepare a list of their standards for education and conservation purposes, which we published in the federal register as an example of standards that would meet the criteria. with regard to the need for governing regulations, our general permitting regulations are applicable to public display permits. as part of the scoping process currently underway, we are focused on clarifying and consolidating existing permitting procedures related to take or import of marine mammals from the wild. while we have not propose specific regulations for education or conservation programs for public display facilities, we will consider the views of the public throughout

the process and during subsequent rulemaking. in terms of in valuing these projects -- programof evaluatine programs, is whether it is going to maintain sustainable population levels. applicants to take marine mammals from the wild must demonstrate that they meet the three aforementioned criteria. we do not routinely reevaluate the education and conservation programs after permit issuance. upon receipt of a new application, we review the education and conservation program of the facility, regardless of when we last issued a permit for that facility. madam chairwoman, i appreciate the opportunity to be here and i look forward to the opportunity to answer your questions. >> i thank you very much for your interpretation of noaa's

rules in captive marine mammal management. dr. marino, you're now recognized. please proceed. >> thank you. good morning. my name is lori marino. i am a lecturer at emory university. i'm also a faculty member of the center for ethics there. i want to thank you for inviting me to share my professional experience and knowledge on this issue. i have studied dolphin and whale brain, intelligence, and behavior, for close to 20 years. i have published over 40 reviews and scientific papers on this topic. i have conducted several in- depth analyses of the claims made by the dolphin-assisted therapy industry and the captivity community in general. i have also been an agitator for the past 15 years -- an

educator for the past 15 years. they must provide education and the professionally-recognized standards. to me even minimum standards for education, two simple criteria -- to meet even minimum standards for education, two simple criteria must be met. the education must be accurate. thus, there must be evidence that people are truly being educated when they visit these facilities. let's address the question of whether either of these criteria are being met. based on my testimony, seaworld and others -- this is all reference in my written testimony. let's look at whether the information provided on the animals is accurate. we will focus on the claims made about dolphin and we'll brains and intelligence -- whale

brains and intelligence. captivity community wants to have it both ways. they want you to think dolphins are intelligent enough to be worth paying money to see. on the other hand, they downplay that same intelligence, so as to allay any ethical concerns about keeping them in captivity. but activity community publishes material that is often false or misleading -- the activity community publishes material that is often false or misleading. there is one example about the dolphins brain. the size of the brain relative to the size of the body is a key indicator of the level of intelligence across species. dolphin brains, like human brains, are oversized in proportion to their body. except dolphin brains are second only to modern human brains in relative size. their brains are 3, four, five

times larger than expected for their body size. 1 website states that dolphins have proportionately-sized brains. this is patently false information. like us humans, dolphins have large, complex brains, and they have keen intelligence. another example -- the alliance claims that the evidence for complex intelligence in dolphins is untested. this ignores decades of scientific peer reviewed research, showing that many dolphins and whales possess the ability to comprehend the human language and have highly- developed cultures. despite what this community want you to believe, dolphins and whales possessed rare capacities

in the animal kingdom. these are just a few examples of deceptive messages by the captivity community. there are many more. clearly, the basic requirement that information be accurate is not being met. now on to the question of whether the education claims of the community are being met based on valid outcome measurements. you may hear arguments by the theme park community that attempt to convince you that the usual standards of academic rigor and evaluation by one's peers are old-fashioned and no longer apply, and that there is a new way of assessing learning. do not believe it for one second. these are simply veiled attempts to defend research that does not even meet minimal, professional standards, and that is not even appear-reviewed. -- peer- reviewed. research is based on good logic.

that does not change. you and i know simple math. 2 plus 2 will always equal 4. they claim that asking visitors what they believe and how they feel would be learning. that would be like giving a test or simon's -- or assignments, and then asking the students at the end of the semester whether they learned anything. if i did that, i would be out of a job. the basic fact is that the only way to assess learn is by measuring knowledge. because up to the community does not seem to want to do this. in summary -- the captivity community does not seem to want to do this. in summary, it would have been easy enough at any time in the history of these facilities to design proper research on their educational value, but that research has yet to be done.

in my opinion, this is a matter with very serious implications for public education. thank you. >> thank you very much, dr. marino, for your views on the need for improved oversight a public display facilities. i would now recognize dr. corkeron. please begin. >> thank you, members of the committee. -- members of the subcommittee. i appreciate been invited to speak on this topic. i am going to concentrate on education, rather than conservation. that is what we have been asked to focus on. before discussing what we were asked to address, i would like to sketch out some of my views on how we perceive animals and how that affects the way we go about managing our assets. where does that take us today? this categorization i am working with is very simple. it was put forward by an

ecologist from new zealand quite some time ago. put simply, the way we perceive animals can be divided into four classes. there are those that we fear and dislike and we want to cull. we have lovelies that we like, revere, and want to conserve. we have commodities that tend to be domesticated. we have whiled animals that we hunt -- wild animals that we hunt. we also have irrelevancies the people do not think about at all. there are some misconceptions about marine mammal wildlife. that attitudes in norway were totally antithetical to the normal attitudes i had encountered. the very simple classifications were very useful in this case.

people's perceptions can change. dolphins were basically seen as irrelevancies. we do not have to go back to far to see when they were commodities, hunted for food and leather. killer whales were viewed as nasties from the 1950's to the 1970's. at the same time, we got a lot better at capturing, transporting, and maintaining these animals in captivity, as we grew in knowledge and experience of them. if we look at the situation now, u.s. citizens tend to view dolphins and killer whales as lovely. they saw them on the u.s. television shows "flipper." with this heightened awareness, people grew to understand that

dolphins were intelligent bring mammals. the public view of killer whales changed around the time they appeared in captivity. this is historical context. more recently, we're beginning to understand the true cognitive capacity and complex social lives of bottle nose dolphins and killer whales. in bottle nose dolphins, we have done research on both captive and free-ranging animals. in killer whales, it is mostly free-ranging animals. there are parts of the country where seals are seen as lovelies and others were they are perceived as nasties. with that background, with regard to the adequacy of current, professionally- recognized standards, we're hearing more about this from people who know much more than i do.

my understanding is that the accreditation of those standards -- they seem pretty reasonable to me. if you look at some of the work by those members, for instance, the monterey bay aquarium programs, it has achieved very high standards of education and conservation. it is aiming for high standards. i am less comfortable passing comment on the need for regulation. this may be a policy issue. to give an example, it seems that some oversight of the oversight may inform arguments against keeping them in captivity. there instances where the educational information provided by some facilities is not as good as it should be.

it may be appropriate that there is some oversight of the oversight, given the trust that people place in the members of the a.z.a. with regard to evaluating education and conservation, we have heard something about that from doctors marino. i am sure we will hear more from dr. boyle. the educational volume of captive marine mammals is amenable to scientific tests. we have the tools to do this in social science. we need to make a better effort actually doing that. to return to a change in attitudes -- all the people now seem marine mammals as lovelies dollars although -- although people now see marine mammals as lovelies, there seems to be a disconnect between people loving dolphins and making societal

choice is to ensure a healthy marine environment. maybe all of us are falling down in achieving better public education. how do we instill and enhance a seat at it in u.s. citizens -- a sea ethic in u.s. citizens? >> thank you very much, dr. corkeron. i understand you are a visiting fellow at cornell. i thank you for your testimony. our next is dr. boyle. please proceed. >> chairman or dbordallo, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for allowing me to testify. only to record 21 facilities, including seaworld, meet the mandatory -- only 221 facilities, including seaworld, meet the mandatory standards. the opportunity to see and get close to wild animals is one of

the few authentic experiences that can help stem the tide of americans' growing disconnect from nature. our education programs reach 175 million visitors annually, including 50 million children. since 2000, aza members formally trained at 400,000 educators and provided millions of dollars each year in educational support to teachers and schools. i have letters from our members detailing their education and conservation work, and i ask that they become part of the record for this hearing. the enormous value of an formal education has been conclusively proven by 50 years of research by the national science foundation. recently, the national academy of sciences reported and i quote, "informal environments are of fundamental importance for supporting science learning

and improving students' attitudes toward science. new research proves that the visitors to dolphin shows experienced an increase in conservation-related knowledge, attitudes, and behavioral and tensions, and retained the knowledge gained during the experience -- and intentions, and retain the knowledge gained during the experience." "education policymakers shouldn't take note. much of what people know about science -- should take note. much of what people know about science is learned informally." the marine mammal protection act allows permits for public display only to those who offer programs for education or conversation -- conservation purposes that is based on professionally-recognized standards. the national marine fisheries service formally recognizes and publishes both aza's standards and those of the alliance of marine mammals parks and aquariums, and the

professionally-accepted standards which public display facilities must follow. conservation and education is mandated by aza's accreditation standards. they should continue to be recognized standards. they fulfill both the spirit and the requirement of the law. recently, the animal rights journal published an attack by dr. marino on research led by the world's leading scholar in free choice learning. the paper does not meet even the minimum criteria for sculley ethics or for credible scientific research -- for scholarly ethics or for credible scientific research. the real ethics do not agree with dr. marino. live animals promote sympathetic conversation. it helps increase the value. it does so more than any other

formal or informal learning experience. in 2009, when council reported abundant evidence that -- one council reported abundant evidence that it contributed to people's interest and knowledge of science. many such reports show the effectiveness of our education programs and evaluations. that is why we stress that attempting to entrench current evaluation methods and legislation would restrict, rather than support, the advancement of a more precise evaluation tools. finally, i offer the following recommendations. aza standards produce effective marine mammal conservation and education programs, which fulfil the requirements of the marine mammal protection act. no changes in law or additional regulation is necessary. aza and its members welcome the opportunity to work with the congress and the agencies on

making these programs even more successful than i arthey are. we invite you to experience these programs for yourself. see what happens to people when they get close to marine mammals -- the inspiration, the involvement, and the enduring commitment to conservation generated by these actions is unquestionable and undeniably important to the future of marine mammals and our planet. on behalf of the association of zoos and aquariums, i thank you for the opportunity to be here today. >> i thank you very much for presenting your perspective on marine mammal captive display and providing more information on the professional-recognized standards of the industry. i would also like to introduce two members of the subcommittee that have just come in -- the honorable don christensen -- the honorable don christensen --

donna christiansen and also mr. cassidy from the state of louisiana. i have a few questions to begin with for mr. schwaab. for the purpose of my questions, please assume that i am speaking about marine mammals under the jurisdiction of your agency, namely whales, seals, sea lions, and dolphins. with that in mind, we are pleased that the nmfs will propose a rule to implement the nmpa provisions on public display. do you know how many facilities in the united states hold marine mammals in captivity for the purpose of public display? >> i have data on the numbers of

animals held in facilities. currently, that is approximately 1100. i do not have the actual number of facilities. my staff might, or i would be happy to get back to you on that. >> dr. boyle? >> i can only speak about aza- accredited institutions, but there are 98 of those. >> i would like to have the total number. if you could provide that for the committee -- >> my staff just informed me that it is roughly 100, which coincides. >> 100, all right. in your testimony, you state that once a public display facility meet the criteria under the law that requires them, among other things, to offer a program for education or conservation that is based on

professionally-recognized standards of the public display community, that nmfs has no additional oversight over the holding, breeding, and care of the animal, which has been delegated to the usda. are you then saying that you have no further responsibility for determining whether the facility is continuing to offer a program for education or conservation, based on professionally-recognized standards? >> madam chair, our focus has been on the initial test that i described. at that point, the primary care and oversight ships, under the animal welfare act. i am not suggesting that we have no further responsibility, with respect to the continued meeting of that educational test, but that has not been a focus of our

programmatic activity. >> for the record, that is no, correct? i would like a yes or no. >> no, i am not saying that we have no further responsibility with respect to ensuring that the requirements are met over time. >> who is monitoring this? >> as i said, it is not something that we have provided -- focused on from a programmatic perspective. when animals are moved and we deal with circumstances around that, where they are transferred from one facility to another, then that test is applied again. >> i am listening to your answer. i think the answer is no. i mean, it is definitely not a

yes. it's got to be a no. >> i guess i am not clear -- if the question is, do we have an active program that aggressively monitors the continuing of that education responsibility on a regular basis, the answer in no. if you're asking whether we have the ability to do that, and do we occasionally meet those requests or responsibilities, the answer is yes. >> all right. that is a very interesting answer. do you agree that under the nmpa, any facility holding a marine mammal for the purpose of public display is required to provide an education or conservation program that is based on the professionally- recognized standards of the display community? >> yes. >> if so, who is monitoring these facilities to ascertain if this is the case?

>> the accrediting organizations. >> how can you explain the interpretation of the law? i don't -- >> i am not sure i understand the question, madam chairwoman. >> who is monitoring this? >> the content of the education program, we believe is under the auspices of the accrediting organizations. the fact that an education program exists or not, we understand to be our responsibility. >> in other words, no one is monitoring? but if a facility that attain -- >> if of a soda that attained a marine mammal -- if a facility

that obtained a marine mammal then ceased to provide that educational of conversation -- conservation program, that would be when we would have the opportunity and the need to reengage. >> i think we have some problems here. under the law, they are required to maintain the report. the only nationwide registry. according to your registry, how many marine mammals are held in captivity in the u.s., for the purposes of public display? how many facilities in total are holding these animals? i think you answered that earlier. >> 1100 animals, correctly. approximately 100 facilities. -- currently. approximately 100 facilities. >> i believe you have a registry of all of the animals held at the aza facilities.

do you? >> yes. >> all right. i will go on to the ranking member for his questions. >> thank you, madam chair. thank you for the information you gave us. dr. boyle, i would like to ask you a few questions. i will then go to the other members. dr. marino criticize the methodology of the study. she concludes there is no compelling evidence to support the notion that zoos and aquariumsare educative -- are successfully educating -- the zoos and aquariums' programs are effective. do you agree? >> i do not agree at all. i can give you some reasons for that. her article criticizes the methods presented in the review article.

review articles do not, by definition, present detailed methods. they are a summary for the general use of practitioners. they ignore the original publication which did provide a detailed methods and a failed to seek out the data that could have been obtained through the national science foundation, that funded the research, and all of the data which is available in the public record. interestingly enough, they're article criticizing this paper did not even cite the original publication. furthermore, the work is a descriptive study. their criticism and critique of it pretended that it was an experimental design, and therefore the entire analysis is based on a flawed assumption. further, her critique followed a 1959 definition of science, which has been thoroughly debunked and discredited in the

1970's, as bad science. later, there was a paper published call "fashionable nonsense -- postmodern intellectual abuse of science." it was about how his work was used to misuse scientific and mathematical concepts. finally, marino published in a supposedly peer-reviewed journal, but the editors failed to ensure that the content reflected the original research and failed to confirm that their criticism was based on valid science. >> i will give dr. marino an opportunity at a later moment. how often are the industry standards updated? are there other standards that the facilities are required to

meet? are they federal? >> they are written to the performance standards. are written in a manner that allows states to meet regional -- they are written in a manner that allows states to meet regional standards. they are updated annually. we look over them each year. each year's standards are dated with that year. a group of 16 professionals operates as an autonomous body within the aza and looks at all of our accreditation standards, reviewing them along with all of the others. the standards require that an institution must ensure that education is a central tenet of the institutions mentionission. it requires that the develop a written plan. it must meet local and regional standards.

they must have regular evaluations of their education programs to test their accuracy and out comes. the standards require that each institution, no matter how small, must have full-time paid staff dedicated to education. the institutions must have sufficient funding in order to support the education required by our standards. in addition, the standards require that the institution and here to our policy on the presentation of animals -- adhere to our policy on the presentation of animals, our policy on contact with the public, and our policy with program animals, those shown directly to the public. each time an institution passes accreditation and matches the current standards across the industry, including a review of

the education staff, the presence of the docent program with adequate training, the presence and condition of conscience, the existence of quality outreach programs, and the content of those programs as well, how education messages are conveyed to casual visitors, the quality of education publications, brochures, and other printed material produced, all level of contact with local schools and institutions of -- a level of contact with local schools and institutions of higher education, and more. i will stop there. >> i thank you you very much for this. i would like to ask -- i thank you very much for this. i would like to ask a general question. do you feel we have sufficient regulations in place today? do we need for the regulations in place -- further regulations in place because of the problems that happened ia while back at

seaworld? >> i feel like there are adequate standards in place. once an institution -- you noticed the number of institutions that have marine mammals and those that are accredited is almost a perfect match. our accreditation standards require conservation education. in answer to the question, we are monitoring it. each institution must go through accreditation every five years. every five years, it is a clean slate, starting from ground zero. we review every part of the operation to see if they're meeting the standards. it is not our re-accreditation. it is all over again. we're monitoring it on a daily basis. our conservation and education committee, populated by 20 of the leading professionals in the area, our field conservation

committee is also involved. we have several committees involved in insuring that the content is accurate and presented well -- in ensuring that the content is accurate and presented well to visitors. >> do you have an estimate of the number of jobs that are impacted by zoos and aquariums? >> i do. nationally, our member institutions employ 126,000 people across the country and they generate approximately $8.4 billion of economic activity in their regions. >> thank you very much. does anybody else have an opinion? do we need to change the regulations or are those in place sufficient to have oversight of the animal parks?

>> ok. you're over. >> mr. brown, i would just note that from the narrower perspective of focus on conservation and education standards, standards associated with these programs in these facilities, we are comfortable with the current focus on the industry standards as the basis for those programs. >> ok, thank you very much. >> i thank you. i would now recognize the gentleman from michigan. >> i thank you, madam chair. dr. marino, are there any reasons for captivity of marine mammals? under what conditions and for what purposes? >> thank you for your question.

i think that there is a purpose to temporary captivity when an animal has been stranded and is being rehabilitated and prepared for release, or at least put into a sanctuary situation. that is, in my view, the only purpose that captivity could serve. i have not been given a chance to respond to dr. boyle. with permission, i would like to do so. >> you have my permission. >> it is understandable that the authors of that paper would be defensive. their paper was not published in oa peer-reviewed journal. it is the journal of human animal studies.

i want to say something about his comment that we were attributing causal conclusions to him, when he was doing simply a descriptive study. let me read you what the president and ceo of aza asserted. "for the first time, we have reliable data validating the positive impact zoos and aquariums have in changing visitors feelings and attitudes about conservation." positive impact is a phrase about causation, not a descriptor. it denotes that zoos and aquariums are causing a change in attitude, knowledge, or behavior. we simply took them at their word and reviewed the article on that basis.

one thing further -- it is difficult to understand how dr. boyle could criticize us for abusing whatever information we could get to analyze the study, since it was not available for peer evaluation. we did contact the first author. he sent us more detailed information on some of the items in the text. >> thank you,. dr. boyle, how often are the facilities were reviewed for accreditation -- are the facilities reviewed for accreditation? >> every five years. 221 accredited institutions. >> including the one in michigan -- in saginaw?

>> yes. with your permission, i want to comment on something that was just said. >> since i gave her my time, i will give you my time. [laughter] >> it seems that she has very selective memory. much of her work on animal cognition has benefited from animals in captivity. her response to you about the reasons for captivity are quite confusing, to say the least. the opinion that she offered here, i would say it is indicative of the article that was just produced. that article was not science. it has been debunked. it is based on old and outmoded techniques. it is not science. it is political science in the worst sense of the term. >> we're trying to find the

facts here. i left my office today with 100 other things to do. we want to find the facts. the word didn't is meaningful -- "debunked" is meaningful, but it is also charged with subjectivity. could you send us a paper on how you arrived at the conclusion? >> he and his colleagues have written a rebuttal to the article, which i have summarized in my comments. i can make that available to you this afternoon. >> and he would call that debunking? >> yes. in addition, a paper in the 1970's and the one the cited in 1998, which focuses on the scientific absurdities -- the

work has been shown to have no meaning in today's science. >> it is just interesting. we are very busy people. you have all done well in your own professions. we have "debunked" and what was the other word that you used? [laughter] >> the science upon which the paper is based is of the same level of credibility is as if i worked -- walked in here and told you the world is flat. >> that is pretty condemnatory. thank you for your scientific input. thank you very much. >> i thank you the gentleman from michigan. we now recognize -- >> madam chairman, i do not have any questions.

i was not here in time for the testimony. i will just listen to the show. i think it is quite entertaining. >> by thank you. -- i thank you. i would now like to recognize my colleague from louisiana. >> i gather that from what you said, unless it is rehabilitation of an injured marine mammal, you would close the parks. perhaps if an animal is accustomed to captivity and could not survive in the world, you keep it open, but would not otherwise allow people to come in. can you explain your position? >> i am not in the industry. i am not in a position to make those decisions. my personal opinion is that an animal that obviously needs to be in captivity should stay in captivity.

it seems to me that does not characterize the vast majority of animals in theme park doing shows. >> so, just so i am clear of what you advocate, would you advocate increased regulation by the federal government regarding this? would you advocate -- what would a young dolphin be called, a baby dolphin? >> calf. >> should attack be released to the wild -- a calf be released to the wild? >> we are here to talk about the educational qualities of public display facilities. and nobody believes this, but actually have young children -- >> nobody believes this, but i actually have young children. there are two things i would say about assessing learning.

there are several stages. my 8-year-old goes and sees the dolphins. later, when she has a science course, it has more meaning to her. it is a building process. is it fair to say, you are going to take an exit poll as you walked out, before and after assessment, and make an assessment as to the validity of the experiments? -- experience? >> the aza is making the claim that they have conclusive evidence for public education. i am not making that claim. i enceinte it is not necessarily education -- i am saying it is not necessarily education. certainly, kids have a good time when they go to zoos and aquariums. people have a good time when they go to casinos. >> my children know much more about dolphins than they do about malaysia.

they went to malaysia and they came out and read about it, it would inform -- >> that is your impression and i have every respect for that. >> that being said, i think pathologically -- pedagogical ly, i could find support for that. the learning experience is not valid -- you are not saying that. you're saying there attempted to document the validity is not valid -- their attempt to document of allothe validity ist valid. >> i would have to have evidence for the conclusion. i have to see something -- >> that is not what i asked you. i asked, if there is no

evidence, would you see a justification for the park stores to remain open -- park's doors to remain open? but if they are planning is an educational -- >> if they are claiming it is an educational experience, no. >> we know there is a bell shaped curve -- bell-shaped curve. when you measure across the mean, something can be lost. >> this is too serious the situation to leave to this impression and belief. >> the seriousness is only defined by the consequences. what would be the consequences if they could not establish on a pre-imposed test that there had been a meaningful educational process? >> the public could be misled. there could be negative impact

that we would never know about. we should want to know. >> you could not do a controlled trial. >> you would there -- there are several things we have outlined that you could do to make sure that type of survey would be a legitimate, scientific survey. >> i think it is very important that kids have a learning experience. intuition tells me what studies cannot show. there will be two standard deviations. for most, it is a building block for greater understanding, as is life. madam chairwoman, just so i am clear. the purpose of this study is merely to establish if there is

an educational experience in an aquarium, not necessarily to establish that there should be increased regulations thereof, is that correct? yes, ma'am. i apologize. the purpose is to establish whether there is an educational volume of zoos and aquariums, or at least aquariums, but not necessarily to establish increased regulation. but it is the education, correct. >> thank you. -- >> it is the education, correct. >> thank you. i would now recognize my colleague from the virgin islands. >> returning to the question of value and education, under the standards, you can modify, suspend, revoke permits when it is required. without monitoring of the

programs, how can you assess whether a permit should be modified, suspended, or revoked? how do you know if somebody is meeting the requirements of the law? >> thank you. perhaps i could clarify by suggesting that we separate the fact that there exists a program from the substance of the program. we believe our test is focused on the existence of the program. we have a legitimate and continuing role with respect to the insurance of the existence of a program. it is the substance of a program that we believe, by virtue of the progression of this issue, has been delegated to the industry, as embodied by the two accrediting organizations we have discussed. >> do you believed it should be

left there? should your organization have a greater role? >> we are comfortable with the substance being addressed in this fashion. >> dr. boyle, i had a chance to go through your testimony, because i did not hear all of the oral testimony. how do you reconcile the interest and knowledge in the students after interaction at zoos and aquariums with the assertion nithat the aquarium's disseminate incorrect information? to what extent do you certified the accuracy of information -- certify the accuracy of information? how you define conservation education? >> it is teaching, which takes many forms, in an informal

environment to connect people to nature. we're teaching people about animals in their habitats and our relationship to them. >> the assertion has been made that some of the information, for example, the size of the dolphins brain -- dolpin'hin's brain has been disseminated incorrectly. >> i would not say that 100% of everything said is entirely accurate. we will look at that suggestion. she is an expert in brain function and anatomy. we will benefit from that opinion. the overwhelming majority of the content delivered by zoos and aquariums is accurate. the accuracy is voted upon by the hundreds of thousands of teachers to take the children to these institutions for these interactions.

those teachers know they need to meet local and regional accreditation standards and outcomes. >> thank you for that answer. dr. marino, and everyone on the panel, in my home district of the virgin islands, we have a small aquarium. it has worked to restore injured animals the health and to the wild. it also finds a way to ensure that visitors have educationally meaningful interaction with wild life, whether fish, sea turtles, sea lions, et cetera. they report an increased respect for wildlife following a visit. do you agree that this is a work -- that this is a worthwhile

outcome? should not respect -- increasing respect for nature and wildlife be the goal? do you feel that they need bad? -- they meet that? do you feel they have a duty to educate beyond just increasing awareness and sensitivity? >> i think that is a laudable goal. i would like they're to be evidence of that. right now, there is none -- i would like there to be evidence of that. right now, there is none. i would like to think there is an authentic change in attitude. if you can show me how a study is done, i can evaluate it scientifically. >> thank you, madam chair. i have no further questions.

>> thank you. i have another question before we start the second panel. dr. boyle testified that many animals, especially aquatics species, cannot be studied in their natural habitat. what we learned from marine mammals in public facilities has built our knowledge about their perceptual worlds, their social needs the mother, distills -- their social needs, their cognitive skills. what do you think about that? >> thank you, madam chair. i would like to pull out that i became a u.s. citizen under -- point out that i became a u.s. citizen under two years ago. despite the accent, i am a u.s. citizen. , we like the accent -- >> we like the accent. >> that would have been a fair thing to say 30 years ago, but

it is not true now. there is a lot of research that goes on in free-ranging marine mammals. the majority of published research on marine mammals, over the past decade or so, has come from free-ranging animals. to take my own case, i have published in the order of 80 papers, and at least 70 of them were based on data collected specifically from a marine -- from free-ranging marine mammals, addressing the issues you are talking about. >> thank you very much. the gentle lady from the virgin islands wishes to be recognized. but i just have one question. -- >> i just have one question. you spend a lot of time in your written testimony on stress. are there ways to reduce the stress of captivity so that

these animals can be displayed in an effective way, without producing undue stress on the animals, either in zoos or aquariums? >> that is a superb question. i am not in a position that answer that. i am not a veterinarian. i have evaluated the work that has been done on the effects of captivity on dolphins. there is substantial evidence that the under gostress. -- undergo stress. to find a solution would take a careful, long, for analysis -- thorough analysis. >> i thank you the witnesses for answering our questions. we find it very interesting. i want to thank you all for coming today. we would now like to recognize the second panel. where is the second panel?

first we have miss julie scardina, curator of seaworld park's and entertainment. -- parks and entertainment. dr. naomi rose. louie psihoyos, executive director of the oceanic preservation society. and dr. rae stone. i would like to welcome our second panel of witnesses. thank you for appearing before the subcommittee. the red timing light -- i do not want to have to repeat myself. each of you have five minutes. when the light goes on, your time has concluded. we will use your full written statements in the record.

before we bega with the testimony, -- begin with the testimony, i would like to recognize the ranking member. >> i do not have written statement i believe -- written statement. i believe that aquariums are vital for education. i believe they are very educational. i listened with interest to the testimony about whether it was educational or not. one of the things that we have to recognize, as human beings, is the awareness that can be created in young people and how you do that. this is something we cannot take lightly. .

>> there are those, and i read some of the testimony, who would have no captivity. they would let them run rallies and wild and only a few of us would be privileged to see. the mass we have nowadays would be unable to be exposed. my goal as a person is to make sure i give an opportunity to young people to see and maybe question if this is right or wrong, and also get some interest in the species themselves. i used to take kids to see the captive animals. they did come away with a feeling it was wrong, but mostly they came away with a sense of curiosity. to me, curiosity is one of the greatest things a young man can acquire. as we go through these hearings, i hope people understand that, that they do not get polarized.

i can tell you a story about turning a wild animal is one time and he did not go. that is very embarrassing when they do not leave and they stay with you. that means you apparently did too good of a job. that whale probably would not have survived if we had turned him loose. >> thank you very much for your statement. i would like to recognize that second panel, ms. scardina, thank you very much and not offer you and your colleagues i sincere condolences for your loss. >> thank you ranking member and also members of the committee. on behalf of the thousands of educators, trainers, and

scientist at sea world and the nation's other credited zoological facilities, i really honored to speak with you all today. i started working at sea world war than 30 years ago because i love and care for animals. i was inspired to make animals the centerpiece of my life through experiences i had as a child. i am from chicago and i have vivid memories of learning about animals at the lincoln park zoo. that institution touches young people every day, just as i was inspired over 40 years ago. i share this because i believe in the power of experience in generating understanding, molding values, and motivating behavior, particularly in young people. my job is to share animals with people in ways that inspire and educate them. i cannot put it more simply than that. my travels around the world have allowed me to experience animals, people, and conservation, but those travels have put something into

perspective for me. there is a great need to motivate people to act on behalf of wildlife. forming relationships with animals and then sharing those relationships in ways they conveyed the animals beauty, their power and intelligence, has been very gratifying to me. i see the amazement and the fascination of our guests' faces and creating that sense of wonder is one of sea world's greatest strengths. it would take me days to share every text and every satellite broadcast. the essence of education at sea world is something far more memorable than words on a page or images on a dvd. it is about an experience that moves people and motivates change. i can tell you all why manatees

are critically endangered. you might care or you might not. or you could visit sea world and see with your own eyes the terrible injuries they suffered in boat collisions. i can tell you that some dolphins are in danger of extinction. see world is more than just inspiration and education. it is direct action. we assist hundreds of animals in need every year. yesterday, we released several endangered sea turtles back to the wild. today we will release a manatee and her calf. in just the first four months of this year, we have rescued more than 1000 animals. not long ago we received a letter, and it was no different than the millions of other letters we have received throughout our history. judge for yourself whether this child had an educational experience at sea world. "the trainers that several have

inspired my son to become a veterinarian and wildlife photographer. his defining moment came to him during a shamu show. at that very moment, his life was truly changed forever." i have a packet of letters from other children as well. while we are committed to sharing animals with our guest, i would like to point out we are better at it today them were 46 years ago. if it is better today, it will be better still 46 years from now. see world as a leader among the nation's marine parks, but we are not perfect. i can promise you that we will always continue striving to improve. we give this committee, the agencies charged with oversight of zoos and aquariums, and the alliance as partners in that process. i will close with something that has deeply saddened all of us at sea world. as you mentioned, we experienced

a profound loss on february 24. my colleague, don brancheau drowned after being pulled into the water by a whale. i have spent my life my lifedawn love so much, and there are very few people who can speak from experience about swimming with killer whales. few people have seen it sea world guest the way we have come from in the water with our animals. dawn herself was passionate about education. she could trace her love of animals to a childhood experience at sea world. she knew every day that children are educated at sea world and the most meaningful sense of that word. tomorrow's conservationists are being formed today in zoos and aquariums across the country. i also know that this committee is a powerful voice for our

oceans, and that you support countless conservation efforts worldwide, and we applaud you for that. the people of sea world and the nation's zoos and aquariums share your passion and commitment to conserve the world we love. thank you. >> thank you very much, ms. scardina, for your testimony. now we will go on to dr. rose. thank you for being here, and please proceed. >> thank you for inviting me to testify today. i will try to focus my testimony on two things. one is on something that dr. reno touchstone, inaccurate information that is in some materials available to the public. what we have been hearing, we

have a lot of self evaluation and self regulation going on here, and i do think that is a point of concern. i think the reason this is important, a lot of people have said this is important and do not take this lightly, millions of people are being exposed to the education at these facilities. many among those millions get their education solely from these facilities. they may see a special on tv or read an article in a magazine, but primarily what they know about marine mammals, they are getting from a visit to a theme park. i think that makes itq?a essentl that we have good oversight of what those programs say to these people. i think at the moment there is no independent oversight of these programs. as mr. schwaab testified, it has not been the focus, but in fact there are no regulations at all.

that is a serious concern. i do not believe it was the intent of congress at the time of the 1994 amendments to simply remove that oversight. it is not because we do not trust the commercial display facilities, but the fact is that they have a conflict of interest in terms of self regulation, because they are for profit. i am talking about the for- profit facilities. % interest of the american people to have that kind of independent oversight. i do want to touch on a couple of inaccuracies. i am a killer whale biologist, and some of the things told to people about these animals are of particular concern to me. what i find most distressing is there is a great deal of scientific information missing from sea world educational material.

it is simply omitted from what people are told, and i believe it is not in the best interest of sea world's shall bottom line to tell people this information. i will focus on a couple of sins of commission, rather than omission. it states the typical life span of a killer whale is 25 to 35 years. there is an observation that scientists believe killer whales in the pacific northwest might live at least 35 years, and later the information changes again. a female life expectancy is 50 years and a males is 30 years. it is vague about assigning maximums are averages to these numbers. in some cases the data are incorrect and the confusion of offering so many different numbers is misleading.

until well longevity, -- on killer whale longevity, is being the average life expectancy. see world strongly implies there is still considerable scientific debate about these estimates, when in place -- when in fact, the only place it continues is in the public display community. these estimates are firmly established in the marine mammal science community. 22 killer whales have died in the past 24 years at sea world facilities. the last death was in 2008 of a very young animal. this information is not available anywhere on their website. the regulations i believe are necessary, these concrete, constructive recommendations that i would like to offer the subcommittee include periodic

reporting on educationaz; progrs with sufficient information for the agency to determine its program continues to meet the professional recognized standards. i am not talking about content. i am just saying independent oversight of whether they are meeting those professionally recognized standards. they need to promulgate regulations that include periodic reporting. also, -- with eyewitness evaluation. these are things that are allowable under the current law. you do not have to change a lot to insert these into the regulations, and it would allow the agency to actually meets the

requirements to potentially revoke and sees animals if those requirements are not being met any longer. the law allows for that, requires that, but without these regulations, it is not possible to determine that. i have another -- number of suggestions appended to my testimony to help the agency do its job. thank you very much. >> thank you very much for your thoughtful input. i am sorry. thank you, dr. rose, for your very interesting testimony that you just gave. i am sure the committee will have questions. now we have mr. psihoyos. please begin with your testimony. >> thank you for allowing me to

talk on this issue. i would like to start out by saying we are all on the same team here. we like to all think of ourselves as educators. i wholly appreciate and take no issue with the value of an informal education for our children. i have been a photographer for national geographic over the course of 18 years. i recently made a film that won an academy award for best feature documentary. the film is about the largest slaughter of dolphins on the planet. although the hon has been going on on a small scale for hundreds of years, is estimated there are thousands of dolphins really killed every year in japan. the hunt is billed by the need for dolphins and captive dolphins industry. i visited the often it shows and aquariums around the world and in the u.s.. and did not start out with an opinion on dolphin shows, but i take issue with the circus talk shows that happen at these parks

and the way the captive industry likes to portray the shows as educational. never once in awhile have i ever seen a dolphin do a double flip, spit water, or moon won't. professional or amateur dolphins would never feed or ride on the back of a dolphin. these are highly social animals that live in pots of up to 2000 in number. orcas are large dolphins. they have more convolutions of gray matter, allowing -- they have an extra sense, sonar. there have recently been found to have a higher amount of spindle le'ron -- since the time of aristotle, dolphins are the only wild animal known to save a human being. there are some of the most sociable creatures on the

planet. these relationships cannot be supplanted by a trainer. they do not need a trainer in the wild. it is irresponsible for those in the captivity industry to portray them as pets and then compare them to what predatory animals when they need an explanation for extremists and apparent behavior. that cannot have it both ways. in history of mankind, there has never been an organ known to kill a human in a while, ever. one killer whale has killed three people in its own lifetime. the captive dolphins industry it would like to believed it was unusual behavior. the parks continue to speak out of both sides of their mouths. we teach orchard and that feed or harassing animals in the wild is unacceptable and is against

the law. when they paid $79 for a family member to go into the aquaria area, it is now called an education. it should be no coincidence that florida has the highest population of captive dolphins in the world and the most often shows. if our goal is to educate the public and promote conservation, we must think seriously about what constitutes education. we do not find it necessary to furnish parks with deserts' and tantra in order to explain geography. kids have a natural -- with deserts' and tundra in order to is explain geography. when dolphins and people are getting hurt and killed in the process. the educational benefit of watching a dolphin in captivity would be like learning about humanity only by watching a prisoner in confinement.

to me, actions speak louder than words. i want entered into the record evidence that members of the alliance who are currently involved in setting educational standards for this industry were involved in the captive trafficking in japan. i want to raise the question that given the fact that the work, do you think these are the same people that should be making these kinds of decisions about education for us? thank you. >> thank you very much, mr. psihoyos, for sharing your experience. we are very pleased that you are here with us this morning. dr. stone, you are the final witness on our second panel. would you please proceed. >> thank you for the opportunity to speak your today. i am re stone, co-founder of dolphin quest.

i receive my doctorate of veterinary medicine and pioneered the application of diagnostic ultrasound on marine animals. this is my 25th year of caring for dolphins. the alliance is an international association of 55 marine life parks, a career and, zoos, research facilities, and professional organizations, with over 40 million annual visitors. we represent the greatest single body of experience and knowledge about marine mammal education. a newly reach more than 2 million children for school programs, summer camps, and other on-site activities, another 800,000 individuals through our research programs, and 150 million people depend on educational and permission we provide for our website, publications, and satellite tv. more than 4 million people have participated in our interactive programs. we focus on the harm from feeding are interacting with

dolphins in a while. we sponsored public service announcements to raise awareness for the cause along with funding and distributing educational folders. i would like to point out that in 2009, to doctoral dissertations on education about often on public display it met their it universities rivers and research scientific methodology standards. passing the committee's scholarly scrutiny. using quantitative methodologies, it was found both short-term and long-term gains in knowledge, attitudes, and behavioral intention and increased reporting of conservation related behavior. the l. sweeney at the university of california found multiple learning outcomes. the construction of meaningful collections -- connections and increased attitudes and attention to engage in

stewardship. a 2005 study by the california department of education found that students an outdoor science programs improve their science testing scored by 27%. factor out other variables, studies in california and nationwide show that schools using outdoor classrooms and other forms of experiential education producing sit -- significant student gains. while dr. marino can question the methodology of individual studies, the national research council and the national science foundation remain the gold standard. as dr. boyle pointed out, the reports from 2008 and 2009 comprehensively establish the validity of multiple outcomes for informal learning settings including zoos and aquariums. for more details b.g.e. there are more details about these studies in my written testimony.

in formal education plays an even stronger role in a weak economy. our secretary of education just last week expressed concern about the possible loss of hundreds of thousands of teaching positions and further cuts to education funding. he acknowledged the importance of private funding and support for financially strapped education system. leading educators develop our professional standards almost two decades ago. to be accredited, apart or query must pass a rigorous inspection every five years. the public must be offered multiple learning opportunities. the public programs are complemented by formal education programs, teacher training, special these programs and community agrees. written testimony includes many examples of alliance educational programming. members have long supported field studies designed to be designed to benefit marine mammals in a while. many scientific studies

benefiting wild animals are only possible in controlled settings. for example, as recently as 2004 there were no normal blood parameters available for newborn dolphin. because we have established a relationship of trust with our mother dolphins, we were able to safely handle their newborn babies. the mothers literally brought the babies to us. we were able to collect metrics and blood samples on normal baby dobbins under one month of age. this research has been submitted for publication, but already the data is being used by veterinarians worldwide for treating stranded baby dolphins. while we can all appreciate traveling to interact with all dolphins, the vast majority of our visitors will never get to scuba dive or travel to such exotic locations. most american families now live in urban settings. children are increasingly withdrawn into an electronic world. we are losing touch with nature

in the animal world. zoos and aquariums are vital links to nature and what life. our planet faces increasingly complex internal challenges. i enjoy watching a major movie with my children, and we learned from some of them, but i do not want to be -- i do not want that to be the only way they are a whole generation of children learn about our ocean wildlife. my boys are both avid environmentalist, and they will tell you they got their passion for conservation through connecting with like dolphins and whales, not from nature may be. involving people of all ages and walks of life with the wonder of live animals in unique experiences creates a connection to nature and a passion to learn more. it is a perfect recipe for meaningful education. that happens hundreds of thousands of times a day at

facilities of the alliance. >> thank you very much for your testimony. now we are ready for questions for the second panel. i would like to begin with dr. naomi rose. in your written testimony, you state that some educational materials are implicitly anti- conservation. i paint the ocean as a scary place and captivity as relatively safe. how can the educational materials of a captive display community better celebrate the natural world in a way that encourages children to champion it? >> thank you very much for that question. i am going to draw the distinction that may get me into trouble down the line. there are two kinds of facilities when it comes to this sort of -- the point you made

about how they portrayed the natural world. one is commercial and one is noncommercial. the commercial facilities have a vested interest. they are basically in competition with nature. i have heard again and again that people cannot go scuba diving are well watching are dolphin watching. the fact is that a lot of people cannot afford to go to sea world, either. where you are going to go and have your vacation and see animals, natural wildlife, they are basically competing with nature. there are certain things they are simply not going to tell people. even though they are supposed to be educational facilities. along with some of the misinformation that we have presented to you about what is misleading in their materials, they do not have a vested interest in telling you how wonderful nature is, because that is their competitor. there are more marine mammal scientist who would agree with

that statement than anything about welfare or other issues that are of great concern to me. they recognize the splendor and the magnificence of nature, and what you see in a commercial theme park setting with these animals is not that. it is artificial. it may be in some ways equally spectacular. when you see the animals leap high in the air at a sea world show, it is spectacular, but it is not natural. when you get entertained by a show that has not won scrap of natural history information in it, that is what you came to see. that is what you paid your $79 to see. when you are in that the import and you are paying a great deal of money, you want to be entertained. -- when you are in that theme park. people are not being told what really happens with these animals in the wild, how they

really live. it is because there is a vested interest in not telling people about that. the fact that they portray nature as a scary place, predators are scary. we have all sorts of things we have to deal with every day. i could step out my front door and get hit by bus. you have to be careful and look both ways before you cross the street. that is what these animals have to do out in the wild. it is challenging an engrossing. that is natural and normal. that is nature, and they should be celebrating that instead of telling young kids -- you have just escaped a predator, and so you get to note -- you get to go to the next asian after the game. i feel very strongly -- go to the next station after the game.

i do not think that is a conservation message. >> have you found the marine mammal inventory report to be sufficiently accurate, accessible, and current to meet the requirements of the law, and what regulatory changes might improve the utility and accuracy of the marine mammal recovery -- or inventory report. >> the marine mammal inventory report is required under the statute. it is the only, as far as i am aware, and i have a great deal of experience with international public display as well -- we are the only country that requires a sort of inventory. it allows us to track certain data, particularly survivorship, mortality rates, etc. as mr. schwaab said, we know we have 1100 or 1200's marine mammals in captivity in the

united states. we do not know that for any other country. we see it as an extremely valuable data base. just as all we have heard today is about self evaluation and self regulation, it is self reporting. the public display community provides that information to the agency, and if they do not provided in a timely way, the database starts to degrade. so i believe it is very important, because it is a statutory requirement that regulations be promulgated that specifically state house soon after a change in status to report must be made. it should be 30 days and no more. if it is transferred, if it is born or dies, the status change must be reported within 30 days. every six months to one year, maybe that can change. the regulations can be adjusted, but periodically they have to do

a review of their entire inventory. inaccuracies are constantly entering the record. at the world, cpac -- at the moment, sea world has a false killer whale in its the year. -- in its theater. i could not find that animalistic in the marine mammal inventory report. a periodic inventory could catch those inaccuracies. the fact that there is an animal alive in orlando, it is easy to check. that should be corrected at that time in the database. >> thank you very much. i find this very interesting. i want to go on to the gentle lady from the virgin islands. >> just a couple of questions. dr. rose, i had asked

administrator schwaab a question about going back and having some input into the educational content. is your position -- he talks about their responsibility to ascertain that there was an educational program and not the content. do understand your position to be that they need to also have responsibility for reviewing and certifying the content? >> when mr. schwaab said that, i wanted to say something at a time. unfortunately, the law currently does not allow the agency to regulate content. there are professionally recognize standards of the display community. i do not agree with that, but that is what the law says that i have to live with that. however, once they establish which professionals recognize dander's there going to me, it is absolutely within the purview of the agency to determine if they are doing that. not content, but whether those

standards the industry is going to choose are being met. outside, independent evaluation of that is essential. what we have been hearing today from all the other industry representatives is self evaluation, and that is not sufficient in my opinion. >> the position that the matter of -- a matter of interaction needs to have some review as well, the ways in which humans and animals interact. >> the captive dolphins industry likes to say it presents the public with an authentic experience. there's nothing of any about a dolphin show. the only thing a concrete pool has in common with the ocean is that they both have water in them. you do not see anything about the actual behavior of the

animal. i respect julie scardina's opinion that we need an authentic experience, but there is nothing of think about the behavior of these animals in captivity. on one hand you have really good laws saying do not jump on the backs of these animals and do not feed them. if you have the exact opposite experience with education. you can do exactly that, but you have to pay for it. you are talking about several hundred dollars to go to a sea world show. my experience was that it denigrates that animal and it did a great human beings. when you come away thinking that that is what these animals are, circus acts. the dolphin is the only animal in the show that has to do tricks for its food. you do not do that to giraffes are elephants. i think we need to reevaluate what qualifies as education.

i think the alliance does a really great conservation work. they do great research. i have an issue personally with the circus shows being masqueraded as entertainment. -- as entertaieducation. >> just one last question. ms. scardina, there was a lot of discussion back-and-forth on the study which dr. marino had criticized. looks at adult visitors. can you just tell us, and i know this was referred to by dr. rose, but could you talk about see world's efforts to educate children? >> absolutely i can. >> can you define for me how you define meaningful public education?

and then what you do with children? >> sutherlin from an educational standpoint, we have thousands of publications and things that have come out, many of which i have brought here. most of them are geared towards children, trying to make sure they are getting a well-rounded an informational experience from that standpoint. we also have content online through our website. to talk about peer reviewed and also other information that comes out come the people who actually work at sea world, 66 pages which list research and papers that have been given. back to what types of education and how we define it is basically making sure we are putting out the highest standards available information that not only our scientists and educators find out and research, but also outside researchers

through aza and the alliance, as well as people in the scientific community. basically, the greatest and most in-depth experience that there is on conservation and education in the world, if you were to put it altogether. for children specifically, not only is information in written form and in visual form, but i think the most powerful form is when they come to the parks and they are inspired by what they see. this is not an unimportant matter. children sit in a classroom and they learned of lot, and yet it is not until they go and experience those things and they get to touch and see and feel -- is what people want to go to museums. it is why people stand outside of the supreme court and want to

go inside. they want to feel it. they are inspired by what they see. with all due respect to mr. psihoyos, talking about authenticity, what you see there is the capabilities of these animals. what we have the olympics? because people get to the greatest height of what they can do, and we love watching that. our animals have been trained to do some of these things that they are capable of. we cannot train them to fly, because they cannot fly. but we can train them to do all these magnificent things that people are inspired by. if you doubt that, if you doubt that we actually inspire people and educate people, please, i worldeyx, and come experience wt we have to offer. if you have never been there, certainly i think it would be worth your while to come and be shown around. i will take you personally. there is so much that people get

inspired and enthused and excited by, especially the children. if i have a minute left, i would like to respond to some of the things that dr. rose said. >> go ahead. >> thank you. dr. rose talks about nature being a place where there are only natural dangers. if that were the case, we really would not have too much of a need for additional education. but that has not been the case for many, many years. natural dangers have been what what life has lived with throughout prehistoric history. animals are adapted towards being able to live through the types of dangers that they come up against. but yet humans into the mix, and

all the changes that humans have made over the last couple of hundred years, and that is why we have so many endangered and threatened animals right now. humans have caused illegal wildlife trade, which is stripping their animals from our forests and oceans. humans have overfished the oceans. humans have caused habitat loss and habitat degradation. there is pollution in the oceans that is greater than it has been at any time throughout history. to say that we should not inspire people to care enough to change their behavior, to make sure that we take care of the ocean, just does not make a whole lot of sense to me. one last point, she talks about us in our efforts as we show of these animals and inspire people within our parks that at the same time are making money, and certainly that money is put back into conservation in many

ways. $8 million to conservation and many at the other programs we have besides our rescue and rehab programs. i would like to point out that hsus makes money when they try to convince people that we are the bad guys and that there is nothing going on outside in the world. then they want people to give money to them. so just remember that it is not dr. rose coming from a purely unbiased standpoints and that we are the bad guys here. thank you. >> thank you very much. i am going to allow our response from dr. rose, but before that, i would like to call my colleague for any questions she may have. >> thank you all for being here. i have to confess that i took my children to see world, and

enjoyed many aspects of it. i have also taken my children to zeus. i think that in the right setting, it can add to the experience. -- i have taken my children to zoos. i am concerned about what the right experience really is. i have listened closely to the testimony, and i am very conflicted about all this. i cannot understand how there could be three deaths and still consider that educational for children who will now know the history and possibly see something. it is not acceptable. i also do not understand how animals can be rented out. i read that sometimes they are rented out, and that does not seem educational. it seems a party like. rent a dolphin. i do not know of that is true or not, but it is quite disturbing, because it does not fit into the educational context. i would ask each one of you to answer for me, is there some kind of common ground here, some

way that we can show these animals, these glorious animals, in a setting that does not have an entertaining -- that does that have them entertaining for their food. that is not natural behavior, and it really does not educate children when you show that they but i think there is a lot for them to actually see. i think because we are so remove from the natural environment, many children will not have families that will take them, will not show them anything, but they could have an opportunity to recognize something very glorious and real. where is the middle ground here, or is there any? we will just go left to right. >> these are some very excellent questions that you bring up. to start at the beginning, and i might miss some of the parts of your question as we go. when you spoke about the depthd,

certainly we are all still in mourning for my colleague, dawn. we have been working with animals for 46 years. what probably makes this such a high-profile situation right now is its rarity. we have a very safe record of working with killer whales for over 44 years. >> i could understand if there was one, but it is hard to understand how you can still hang on to an educational component when there are three. >> i would love to talk about that. the first two deaths that actually occurred when people jumped or fell into the water with the whale. so you have a situation where the whale is certainly not implicated in any type of behavior which initially caused

that. one of the persons was a homeless person. he came in and trespassed at night. >> i do not mean to interrupt, but i only have five minutes. the point is, regardless of what the story is there, at some point the reason for the oil be there ceases to exist, it seems to me. this is not any longer educational. i am not knocking anybody here. as i indicated, i think overall there are some very good things, but i just have concerns about that. >> as far as they are renting out of animals, i am not exactly sure what you are referring to. through accredited facilities we do long animals, and that is part of our ongoing, successful breeding programs that allows us to not have collected in the

animals over the last 20 years. that loaning program is a very well-managed, worldwide program. >> do you know where they go and do you follow up on what happens to these mammals after they leave you? are you certain that their facilities are appropriate, and are you doing spot checks, and what is your responsibility? >> that is part of the of permitting process for any of facility that they go to to have to meet the same standards as it would be here in the united states. >> any physically check -- and you physically check? >> i have not personally been to all those different facilities, but we have people or representatives to follow up. >> i think your point is very well made that perhaps there are some things that just are not appropriate. it is not that we should just throw the baby out with the

bathwater and say no public display, but there are some forms that may not be educational or may even be counter educational. we may go further and say that perhaps there are some species that do not belong in captivity. i am a killer whale biologist, and i have always felt that the public display of killer whales is highly problematic. they are very large, social, and long live animals and they are being held in circumstances that is very different than what is in nature. as i testified on their life spans, they are affected by that. that may be a fact that perhaps this species is not appropriate for public display. mr. sequoyah testified there has been no documented case of a cure will ever killing a person in nature, but for people have died in captivity, and one of those persons was a trainer in the canary islands. the animal that killed them was

a former sea world animal that was on loan. i appreciate the testimony that a check. they did send a representative over there. there were sea world employees at that facility for some time after those four animals were sent there, but somebody died. within three years of those animals being sent there, which is pretty rapid, compared to 11 years between tilicum's previous incident and this one. i am wondering what went on in the canary islands there resulted in one injury and one death. i am going to make a proposition or suggest something that i might regret later, but perhaps we should say that there are some species that do not belong in public display facilities. there is almost nothing natural

about their exhibit. you can put a giraffe in a safari park were basically they are out in nature. you can put branches and dirt and foliage in a reptile cage. you can put in a saltwater aquarium a lot of things like allergy that give the fish the impression they are in nature. you cannot do that for cetaceans. there is nothing about a sea world inclosure except there is water in it. perhaps we can raise this discussion and this debate to a a more surgical suggestion. i am not saying shut them all down or send all the orcas out into the wild. i am saying phase them out. there have also been dolphins or colliding and dying and getting hurt as well. the welfare of the animals

themselves are being jeopardized, not just the trainers. i think all dolphin circus shows should be phased out. there is no educational benefit. is that education. i am not a scientist. i am more of a naturalist. i see these animals out in a while. that is where the most authentic experience is. you are saying that inner-city kids cannot have that experience. i have been to sea roar, and i can barely afford it. -- i have been to see worlsea wd i can barely afford it. in nature, but often dictates the terms of the encounter. at sea world, all the doff and aquariums, -- all the doff and aquariums, they have to interact with people because they need to be fed. these animals are subjugated.

i think when you take an animal out of the wild and train it to do stupid tricks, it says more about our intelligence than it does theirs. someone else will have to decide how to deal with animals in captivity. i just personally would love to have him in the ball to the point where redo not have to see them doing tricks for our -- to have them evolves to the point where we do not have to see them doing tricks for our amusement. we need to go back and evaluate how many of these animals have been killed doing dolphin shows. there is no educational value. >> i am dr. stone was dolphin quest. i appreciate the discussion and

a lively debate here. i think mr. psihoyos said it best. we have a lot in common as well. we need to reach out and look for ways to educate the public on lots of different levels. my boys and i are all scuba divers. we have been to the great barrier reef. we have seen whales and dolphins in the wild many times, and my voice will tell you that to get in an interactive program with a dolphin is a powerful and moving connection with the animal and with the nature that that animal depends upon. the need is so great that extreme environmental degradation we are facing imports us all to look for ways to reach out to children. some will be true nature shows, nature films, some will be through books, classroom learning, and some will be true interactive, hands-on experiences with dolphins and whales and being able to seek a

living, breathing animals in an aquatics environment. to speak to the quality of the internment that we provide our animals, i have been working with marine mammals for 25 years, and i have seen a tremendous evolution in our care of the animals and the quality of the internment provided -- of the environment provided. many of our facilities including mine in hawaii are natural coastal environments. our animals enjoy a enriching social relationships. mr. psihoyos spoke about dolphin pot being from 20 to 2000 -- dolphin pods being from 20 to 2000. we work very hard to provide social relationships and opportunities for our animals that are enriching and

beneficial to the animals. i can also tell you that while there are some on the panel that have very specific feelings about animals in captivity, and others that feel very strongly about the benefits, looking to the third party assessment of our educational programs is really quite profound. i have papers from the national research council, the report on learning science, the national science teachers association, the national science foundation, a 2008 paper on formal education projects, and incomprehensibly establish the validity of the conservation message as well. >> i believe each one of you has an important perspective here. i appreciate you being here

today. i hope we do find common ground. >> i have some final questions. the first one is for mr. psihoyos. at the end of your testimony, you raised concerns that some marine mammals used in captive display in the united states at one time came from japan. can you expand on that concern as it relates to the question of developing education programs? >> the dolphin drives are perhaps the most brutal animal hunt in the world. tens of thousands are killed every year in japan this way. the captive dolphins industry has previously purchased a lot of dolphins. dr. j. sweeney has invited a lot

of these dolphins into american facilities. to me, the ethics of doing that are very much in question. at the same code for your taking the survivors, witnessing the rest survivors accountpod get slaughtered, these are the surviving members. they are now put into captivity. if you know this is going on, this activity, the captive dolphins industry is actually paying for this brutal slaughter. that motivates these dolphin hunters to go out. they are cheering when they get a pod of dolphins in. they are cheering because they have 30 dolphin trainers from around the world waiting to pay up to $200,000 for a trained

dolphin. right now we are all the same page here about trying to stop the drive hunts, but that is only because the marine mammal protection act made it illegal for them to bring these animals into the country. but now to have the same people from the alliance advising this committee on the educational benefits of having a dolphin in captivity when they have been involved in sponsoring the largest slaughter of dolphins in the world, i just want to call into question the ethics of that. >> may i respond, please? >> no ahead. i do have another question for all of you. >> mr. psihoyos's accusations are very misleading. first of all, we received a handful of these animals over 20 years ago when the drive fishery was occurring. as a cultural thing.

it continues today. even in the movie that mr. psihoyos may, at the end they state that this occurs because of the culture of the japanese, first and foremost. they tried to buy the whole group of dolphins from the fishermen, and they would not be bought, because they think they are pests, and they destroyed them because their competition for their resources. the movie already discredits the fact that he is saying that the captive industry to date supports it. he knows it is illegal to bring them into the united states. the handful of animals that we rescued over 20 years ago were obtained at the same exact moment when they were being killed and slaughtered. we are able to get a few out at that point. . .

>> the same question. i have heard several times, responses and the media. they have had a few interactions that have been fatal. that has been a one statistic. there have been a pure than at 200 killer whales in captivity. less than two dozen have injured or killed their trainers. that is the statistic to use. that is a 10% accident rate.

if a can opener had that kind of accident rate, it would be pulled from the shelves. it is not that we drive as many times before an accident occurs that gives us the statistics. it is how many cars have been involved in the accident. look at the toyota situation. that was a serious problem because a type of car was causing accidents. there is an actual type of the species held in captivity that is causing accidents. percentage wise, a very high number. i think the risks absolutely do not outweigh the benefits. >> excuse me, i think i missed a turn. if i may respond to the dr.'s comments about the drive fisheries. i did not have a chance to

respond to that statement. >> the go ahead. >> because a statement was made in reference to my colleague and because it was in reference to aquarium parts and this country, i think it is important to address the accuracy of the information. . i would call upon the film industry to use accuracy in their information documentary's and in the information that is presented. the maker of that film knew very well as the dolphins had not come into this country for a long time, but the maps and the film had eras pointing to canada, the u.s., and -- air rose -- arrows pointing to

canada, the u.s. and europe. i think that was unfair and should be recalled. >> thank you. we will go back to the doctor now. a want to ask that same question again. >> first of all, i am not a doctor. full disclosure. >> well, it is always better to promote then put down. do you deal with the benefits are outweighed by the risks? what i do not think there is any benefit at all to watching a circus show. i would ask dr. stem, hub dolphins -- dr. stone fact, have dolphins from that area ever gone to your facility?

never? are you sure? third >> i will tell you that dr. sweeney is one of the most passionate conservationist you will ever meet. he has donated time and resources to wild dolphin study for over 25 years. i think that to disrespect him is uncalled for in this setting. >> no disrespect. >> i will assign the follow up to questions henceforth. continue. >> doctorate sweeney is also known as one of the biggest -- dr. sweeney is also known as

one of the biggest previous dolphin traffickers that ever existed. he was the subject of another documentary. we have copies of "the cove" here. it is worth 1000 speeches. please see it. >> did our witness. you were given an answer to the question? >> he is adverse to having the dolphins on a display or in interactive settings. thought i think the benefits outweigh the risks. i also ride horses. my love of horses and this board far outweighs the risks of -- of

that sport far outweighs the risks of interaction. trainers and make a choice. they are informed and passionate and dedicated to the education and conservation of the species. >> thank you very much to all of you. i have probably the $64,000 question. what is going to happen to tilly? many people are wondering. >> that is a good question. we are committed to caring for that animal for the rest of his life. he did not do anything wrong. we are caring for him in the positive that he knows with the people that he knows.

-- indeed -- in the pod that he knows with the people he knows. he is receiving excellent care. >> is he still performing? >> not at the moment. >> how do the other people feel about this? >> i am a killer whale biologist. i have spent plenty of hours and the water watching these animals. the fact that he is currently not being touched because they are keeping trainers back a safe distance, they are using a hose

to provide tactile stimulation. he is interacting with other wells, but he must know that something is different, and therefore wrong, because he is no longer being touched. that is something that these animals, by virtue of being held captive, have come to rely on. their trainers are there social partners. for them to back off and not interact in the way they were previously, must be very confusing to him into the very least, and potentially very depressing for him. i am not trying to be anthropomorphic. your dog can feel depression. i am not trying to be unrealistic here. i think that for a seat world to -- for sea world to refuse to

consider the option of providing him with a more stimulating environment in a natural habitat -- and ears are not talking about -- and i am not talking about releasing him, but keeping him safe on the coastal location somewhere, that would make his handlers saver. at the moment, they have to keep a safe distance back. he has become scary. i appreciate the efforts sea world is making to come up with substitutes like the fire hose, but again, i think it could be detrimental. >> has anybody ever seen a

killer whale tank from the air and sea and the proportion of the tank versus the size of the whale? it is pretty small. it is about the size of this room. we have a choice to leave. the animals do not. when you see the size of the animal to the tank, it is almost an embarrassment. when i first went there, i thought there must be some inclosure the animal could escape to where it got to run free. then i realized, that is not so. this speaks so much to humanity and our lack of compassion that these animals are so limited. we make them serve us for entertainment purposes. i believe that the question of subjugating these animals for

entertainment is a valuable one. we need to see these animals out in the wild as much as possible. you would pay four dollars to rent a nature film. i did some of the most popular stories in "national geographic 's" history, and they were on the dinosaurs. no one can go see a dinosaur. our interest does not waned because we cannot ride on their back. i have done stories on the supreme court. no one loses interest because they cannot jump on a justice's back. >> doctorate down.