>> the problem is as i try to get my remarks i don't think the thinking is a very advanced on this either in iraq for the united states and i don't think certainly from what we were hearing from iraqi and american military officials that the iraqi is have any sense of where they want to go onhis issue. i was told by one senior military official we want to involve in iraq and in a security system in the gulf and the new security architecture i don't believe that that has been very far advanced without regard to iraq in the sense of what we want to do with all of the other countries and how was this going to be named? was agreed to be essentially an antiiranian type of security

structure or something more general? so i think that is really on the ground floor with both respect to the rest of the countries in the gulf. i also think that we need to develop this a lot more and as i said in my remarks and we are going to need to be thinking about this well before the end of 2011 and i just don't think at this point we've done that thinking the essentially. >> the question in the corner and then jeff and if others want to ask questions but we know. steve? >> i got back a few months ago

from years over in iraq. i will see first and foremost i wasn't at the strategic level so i wasn't dealing with the two-story and four stars. i have two quick comments and a follow-up question first comment is specifically regarding the iranian influence from my own personal perspective i wouldn't underestimate the influence in baghdad where they may not be particularly involved at all in the political influence going on. it's underestimated the level they have on the day-to-day activity for the iranians in the south. hamas, hezbollah, the people we talked about in a negative tone they started providing medical support and food and stability and those things can be

underestimated. whether it is bad or good i'm not suggesting that i'm suggesting the level of reason and influence is underestimated. the second comment is i haven't heard much talk about either today or just in general the importance of demographics and how that has changed since 2003. i've suggestd one of the biggest reasons that some of the areas have calmed down and violence is decreased is not the animosity but simply the presence of sunnis and around other portia's or kurds and christians around other arabs and in baghdad if you look at e maps from to the peasantry to 2007 you can see the massive movement out of these mixed areas into almost pure sunni and shia areas and that is going

across the board and i would suggest my experience in diyala that also would go iraq. they are still mixed and ongoing fighting. if they consultedin diyala they can solve it elsewhere but i haven't en that. and now the question for you is tied to this. you talked about the ongoing date if you will between both of the sunni and shia parties and the ongoing polical aspect of that as well as secular versus religious even within the shia you have this fault being put out. how do you see the fault lines the next five to ten years, that is my main question for you. >> i was hoping toomment more on the point abo the

demographics. we do talk a little bit in the report about refugees internally displaced and the shifting demographic profile of iraq. i found it hard to get i rockies to talk about the internally displaced. there was a lot of vague nobody knew the numbers, and nobody knew whether the government funded programs to help them. there was a little bit of an oh well. in the north of there was the view not unlike and see retorts the iraqi refugees, these are the customs, we let them -- we are poor and receptive and we are not going to stick them in the camp and isolate them but this has been a chronic issue for me that irqi is having little trouble talking about the shift and the change in their society based on people who fled

because they all get -- it's a complicated story. they talk about people that fled during the saddam hussein period and after 2003 and after 2006. so it all depends what you're reference point is on where the tragedy occurred. but we heard pretty consistently particularly in baghdad the numbers of refugees still outside of iraq is quite exaggerated and they think the numbers are lower but i take the point about demographics it's terribly important. i don't think i have anything profound to say about the sunni shia. i am worried that the political parties are starting to get in bed in who is their constituency and the constituencies define geographically and it is defined so that the next towns, kirker, diyala province, baghdad itself

are one story and then there are parts of the smaller towns of iraq that is a different story. maybe that is the way it always was historically deep in the marshes or anbar province or in kurdistan you had these distinct societal cultural enclaves but he stillad baghdad was still the place it came together and people used to talk of kirk as a cosmopolitan city r a multicultural city. and it's less now. so why think while politics still feels fluid while people can switch their affiliations and join different parties and different times, they're seems to be a pattern emerging that the parties are see themselves as has saying to the cting natural constituencies both geographic and ethnically based. did you want to come in on that question? jeff?

>> i would like to build on [inaudible] without thinking through them future securities agreement we might have with iran, and what iraq might look like in the years ahead. if you imagine what iraq would be able to do with the 6 billion barrels of oil a day, imagining those xperienced his of the oil-rich countries tend to buy a lot weapons. as a question for the united states and the iraqis is what is the sort of optimal size of the iraqi military establishment? we want them to be strong enough to resist but to get beyond the

tipping poit the neighborhood will start to remember and in that context did you pick up anything at all from the security types in iraq concerning the occupation which is the iranian military? >> this is an interesting question because when i was serving in the pentagon back in 2003 the adible sighs of the iranian military was a chief preoccupation. >> iraqis. >> did i say it again? [laughter] the iraqi military was a preoccupation for this exact reason which is how big is too big and what do we need for the mission. so the original idea was to send out a coordinator who would

build a fairly small iraqi military so as not to threaten their neighbors and to the inrnal security mission. the mission changed because there was huge internal security concernsnd now we are off to about 600,000 or so internal iraqi security forces with equient and so on to match. so in answer to your question i would have to say there is no answer to your question specifically at the moment. i didn't detect any concern about t size of the military. there has been some grumbling about what is going to heaven when the united states pulls out and will the iraqi military assume a political role which it has shown reluctance to do that to this point. but i don't think that was the foremost on people's mind. we didn't have the opportunity to go to other countries in the

gulf so i can't say we have any inside information on how other people look up the iraqi military buildup. but my impression from looking at the outside is people re fairly comfortable with what is happening up to now. there isn't a lot of ability to project power. there is a pretty significant ability to control the internal security situation but that could change. so i would just say this is very much a work in progress and a lot of the decisions that will be made on where the iraqi military goes from here will be made by the next government and as i said and i think we agree we are not goingto be in a position to determine that for quite some time. and one other thig as i think iraq's relations with the neighborhood or going to be important it is still very much on theout with a lot of its

neighbors worried about it and nervous about it and not willing to build the kind of political relations would give them a certain comfort level with what iraq is doing in terms of its military. once that happens i think we will then have a better idea how iraq fits into the neighborhood and u.s. military plans especially with regard to security architecture and the region. sprick about iran's nuclear program i neglected to -- we didn't hear a lot to thoughts. if they get the bomb it's not been to be pointed at us is one observation. that we will have a friendly enough relationship with iran we would not be threatened if there were a nuclear weapons state but the second is passivity you will take care of it, won't you? so this is the downside of the

u.s. oing their security which is there is an expectation that the big ways have to handle this and we are not -- we have no independent policy toward iran's nuclear program. we kind of were counting on you to do. this gets to the theme i heard you are spending too much time trying to understand your enemy. why are you tryi so hard to have a relationship with iran? don't you understand you need to be tough? i did hear that but just in one or two passing conversations so i don't think iraq has been an independent policy toward the nuclear program but i think they put that pretty low on their lis on the national security concerns. steve?

>> thank you for the presentations and i want to follow up on something i will mention and that was the question of national identity and it also relates to the previous questioner about demographic decisions and movement in the country. obviously a diverse country about security relates to the military and the apparatus as the capability. there may be a short answer to this but is it your view that the military and police are represented of iraqi society that will serve as a blocking force moving forward? >> again, i think that is a work in progress. i think the iraqi security forces have made great strides in terms of integrating ethnic and religious groups.

i think they've also made great strides with the insistence of the united states in encouraging a kind of civil mind set in which the iraqi military forces understand they are at the service of the political forces and nt a political force in and of themselves and i think that may be even a more important consideration than simply putting togeth representatives of all of the various ethnic and political groups in proportion to their population. so i think basically what we are dealing with here in terms of iraqi security forces is a strong force that is upholding civil and political rule and i don't see them turning away from

that role especially considering the fact that they are very much dependent still and we'll be for a long time on the u.s. logistics train equipment, training and other forms of assets including intelligence which they still depend upon a lot in order to conduct the various operations they are conducting. so i think that they are on the right track in this snse. >> in terms of the recruitment, my impression is they are quite purposeful and sensible making sure the units are represented and getting the right mix of folks, and i am sure in the countryside in the smaller towns there can be incidents if an iraqi checkpoint is manned by people who are not trusted for cultural or religious reasons

etc.. but i found it ironic how the system is right now that these ubiquitous security checkpoints where the iraqi army is in a fury in charge but it's still a western security firm who is hired the perfidy inns and i ron ne stupak the passport to an times every 100 yards, so even with a checkpoint of the iraqi in charge are not necessarily the safe face-to-face contact as necessarily with an raqi. that i assume will change quickly. there is another issue about the integration of is that wrong, charlie? are you shaking your head? >> the checkpoints are in the. the reason the if other countries is to give the foreigners' confidence not related to the iraqis. >> so it isn't iraqi interaction >> when you get doll's elsewhere

in baghdad you don't find [inaudible] checkpoints. sprick does more need to be done to integrate the kurdish security forces? the kurds want maximum autonomy and baghdad to pay more fothe training and equiing etc.. that is intriguing to me and a little bit and give as i thought. they are now concerned because they are coherent and competent force they were not given priority for training. but now they feel they are being left behind and they want to be -- at least that is the impressn got. i don't know how ephemeral that is but we certainly heard in the krg they would like them to be eligible for the other american programs.

>> [inaudible] the iraqi government pays and the other security enterprises without any control and for the same reza baghdad resist doing that is to obtain the control for covering the cost and i think that tension like other aspects of baghdad over the department policy for example will remain during the future of the relationship between the center and that particular region. >> any last questions? why don't we take one or two more than we can wrap up.

here and in this gentleman. >> [inaudible] i was going to gback to the issue [inaudible] and my question to you is what role do you think that syria can play in iraq, and one more question about security related particularly to training what role is on a nato to play, their mission as a global security provider. >> welcome a first i think this police training mission is nominally a nato program part of

it. so nato is involved in training at last part of the iraqi security forces. jordan and syria, you know, i've assumed the refugee presence in those two countries at least partly shakes their policies towards iraq but obviously there's a lot of the history that shape the policies. i am struck at how much jordan's relations with iraq have practically falling off of the screen compared to jordan being the hub for goodsnd services going into iraq compared to the early 90's with today jordan is almost not a player in iraq's daily life. part of that was a link sympathetic to saddam hussein at one point. as we think that jordan is a minor player and jordan is a little bit in a defensive position vis-a-vis the refugees. there's still quite restrictive

of which five iraqis can come in or even transit jordan. c rea is the last gap of the competition of solidarity, so i think you've got a very complicated political dynamic in play. the syris are housing some of the former baptists and they are fairly consistently misreading the iraqi politics. and it they've been generous to the refugees. i think syria has the most flexible policy towards the iraqi refugees. but i don't think that syria and iraq athe highest government level are on a particularly productive path towards trusting each other or having a more cordial relationship any time soon. it seems to me to be pretty brutal. >> most of the refugees that are in jordan come from a higher socio-economic and the ones that were coming from the most

marginal wiest will be settled or are in the process of being resettled meaning that most of the iraqi seen a jordan will stay. i d't think they will return. syria is a different situation terms of the open policy you have a large number of refugees settled in syria because of the tiny to the baptists most of them are not registered so they are off of th screen which makes it difficult to calculate how many there are. i would assume most of them won't return to get those that returned come to the question those who stayed have somekind of natural reconciliation with their neighbors and will come with the load still fresh so what kind of interaction that wellcome is one of the larger questions as well. >> one more question and then speak [inaudible] >> thank you. my name is former andersen. i would like to make a comment and then ask a question, please. my comment is on the optimal sides of the iraqi security

forces, and i think to a great extent the iraqi army and the police are a jobs program and they keep people street of informed and educational functions much like the u.s. army did in a world war ii, may be borrowed for one, certainly korea. i think in that regard the army is a good thing. i think it is important to realize that it's not the sides of the army that makes it expeditionar as the logistics. it's again intelligence but particularly the logistics and that is where iraq is, they can't move food or medical care. the have no expeditionary medical care defined in the army. so i think that in terms of a threat to the neighbors unless iraq is going to -- if iraq wants to invade somebody it has

to revert to the strategy of plunder. >> they did it twice in the post medieval period. [laughter] >> right. but nevertheless, i think there was logistics' that is o the military. the second, i would like ask a question. it seems to me as an anthropologist and the basis for spontaneous democracy has been middle class criminally trade class, and i'm wondering about when i was in raq a result of middle class and i'm wondering about the return of the middle class did a limit of middle class and also the other pillar of a free society free press and a journalism has been under attack even in kurdistan, and i

wonder now if you could comment on the middle class and also on the free press [inaudible] and then from the outside. thank you. >> i think in terms of those who have fled i would write them off the likelihood based on the experience of people returning i would assume to be slim. it's more the fault of the middle cla and that is emerging. there were quite a few who dug their heels in and state. the work we've done with professors are among those i would see from people who said we want to saye don't want to leave and we see that this is the final chance for iraq either at work now or we will never get it right so there are soe people who say particularly among the educated it would't be considered among iraqi staff tribal or family connections they're educated and have to influence and the civil society. in terms of the media, very similar to the women use all in 2003 a leap in terms of the media have access, some of the

laws coming in our back fighting and that is one of the fear is where we saw at vance met in civil society early on there is athreat. one of the projects we recently worked on was incitement guid to say what are the words that are providing in iraq in terms of violence and it was to others amazing to see that there is the media has become more controlled and also very much tied to the political parties the idea of a free press is again shrinking. iraqis are pushing for the desire and it's one of the things we get asked for support on but in terms of the practice it was stronger in 2004 and in 2005 than it is now. >> we were in an iraqi's, and he had a big screen tv and school through all of the iraqi tv stations for us. it looked to me like there were dozens petites one candian individual but funded the station and then that political

pedigree come in a different political affiliations they have and who they were now and what they favored so it is kind of a wild frontier at one level but in terms of what the iraqis are watching i assume there's a lot of research that needs to be done on this kind of explosion of quantity, quality and how iraqis relate to tis new media is interested like the media situation where people gravitate to the media outlet and tell you it reinforces you're own world view or do you listen to a wide array of opinion? >> dewitt put in jeopardy a lot of the satellite channels. >> i just wanted to get one thing to that. we were up talking to some kurdish journalists sinking of the publications have become

widespread. there were already beginning to cut back on the number of issues they would publish each week and so on, so there is a little bit of this what's happening to newspapers in this country is already beginning to expose this company of media and iraq, and finally i truly agree on your comment on the ze of the iraqi forces. really is true the capabilities are limited by the intelligence logistics and so one and also the politics of the country so i don't see an iraqi army the size of what we are building now agree to be any threat to any of the neighbors in the foreseeable future. >> i think we've come to the end. i want to thank charles for traveling with me and the participation. and that was wonderful, to edit a wonderful dimension to today's discussion. thank you for coming. [applause]

>> primary voters go to the polls tomorrow. we will give a preview of some of those races with josh kraushaar. after that the impact fiscal stimulus has had on the u.s. economy. later, author jeffrey miron on his book. each morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern, and later, the senate hearing on the nuclear arms treaty signed by president obama and the russian president. clinton, gates, and mullen will testify on the strategic arms

reduction treaty. live coverage begins at 10:00 a.m. eastern. the state department said efforts to impose new sanctions on iran will continue despite a deal between that country, brazil, and turkey over its nuclear program. the spokesman says many vetoes have to be worked out. this briefing is 35 minutes. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> good afternoon. today secretary clinton led a memorial service honoring the port-au-prince earthquake victims. the ceremony recognizes the importance of the stuff that died in the earthquake and

enologist the extraordinary work of embassy personnel and the aftermath. two americans and six locally employed staff died in the massive earthquake that killed more than 230,000 people. two american employees died. in addition to the eight embassy employees, a u.s. air force major was killed as well as his wife and children. many family members of our local haitian staff also died. the state department's secretary offered awards for the

family. secretary clinton met to discuss various issues including iran and the agreement. they noted the smooth operation of reach of the summer of last july over flights to afghanistan. the secretary's remarked on the success of resetting the relationship between the united states and russia and the positive review of our relations. the minister came to washington from observing the recent launch of atlantis doesn't kick canaveral. -- down at cape canaveral. turning to the doctor who met with the civil society partners

in improving governance and democracy. he also launched a new program for sustainable agriculture called the from project and visited a u.s. aid projects. he arrived over the weekend and visited the camp of this for its people -- of displaced people in darfur and held a series of meetings with the national partners. maria is enriched to indonesia, where she will engage with

organizations on a range of human security issues from political, economic, and water security to environment, human rights, and anti-traffic issues. george mitchell departs for the next round of proximity talks. he leaves the united states tonight to of meetings with palestinian officials on wednesday and israeli officials on thursday also, -- on thursday. also, the assistant secretary met with officials including al maliki and the foreign ministers. the assistant secretary for economic energy and business affairs is in brazil today and tomorrow. he will give the keynote address of the society of the council of america because 2010 sao paulo

conference on tuesday. he will also meet with key business leaders. our ambassador for global aid is in tanzania. he is meeting with representatives of the government's presenting the guidelines for prevention of hiv and meeting with representatives of donor organizations to discuss the hiv aids epidemic. we also took note of the crash of flight in afghanistan today. there were 38 passengers plus five crew members on board, and we confirmed there was one u.s. citizen on board. we're working with the family at this time. the united states welcomes the government of the maldives reaffirmation it looked the 36 of detainees from guantanamo

bay. the united states is grateful to all countries for their efforts to close the facility. since 2009, the united states has transferred 59 detainees to 24 different destinations. 3553 in transfers to third countries. -- 35 have been in transfers to third countries. they have now called on the iaea to convey the results of this arrangement to the iaea. the united states continues to have concerns about the arrangement, but the joint declaration does not address the core concerns of the international community. iran remains in defiance of five security council resolutions,

including its own willingness to suspend enrichment operations. today iran reaffirmed that it plans to continue to enrich uranium to 20% despite the fact that if previously justified the increase in richmond for the research reactor. public statements suggest the deal is unrelated to its ongoing enrichment activities. they are linked. >> to begin with, the agreement that is said to have been reached describes the 1,200 kilograms of uranium that would- be transferred to turkey. the figure referred to 80% of their stock as of last october.

why is this even are remotely acceptable -- given that it does not address the additional said it has produced over the last six months traded >> let's take this step by step. we do have ongoing questions. what is crucial is what iran presents in terms of a formal response in coming days to the iaea. we have been calling for iran for several months since october 1 to give a formal response and outline what it is prepared to do and how it plans to cooperate with the iaea. you're right that it was not envisioned as an end to itself. it was envisioned as a means to

an end to build confidence with the international community and iran, but in the words of the joint declaration, it leaves a lot of information in terms of how it will work, the material to be transferred out of iran. whether it is going to be stepped up to actually address core concerns the community has -- there is a phrase for it says it is willing to have discussions with the p 5 plus wa1, but it would need to addres the concerns on its program. in our view of the only reason to have the first and foremost

would be to address our core concerns with regards to iran's nuclear program. while we salute the efforts of brazil and turkey, there are many of standing questions iran has to answer in terms of its true intentions. >> it does not effectively postpone your reference for sanctions? it presumably postpones it for it least a week. they have a week to submit their proposals. it is hard to imagine you're getting anyone to approve sanctions. >> our efforts include a reference on identifying prospective sanctions. set effort will continue. >> it was supposed to continue, wasn't it?

it was something separate from that to get you into it. >> it was meant ua means to an end to get iran to fundamentally address the concerns of the international community has, and the fact that iran continues to enrich uranium but has failed to sustain -- x -- to end the program is far for concern. the fact that we might see the removal of some enriched material from iran is useful, but in the broader context, the real issue is whether iran is prepared to come forward and address the international community's legitimate concerns about iran's nuclear program, so we will wait to see what the

nature of iran's formal response is before we pass adjusted -- judgment. >> it sounds like even if you take out some of the uranium out of iran, you're saying they will go ahead, that you would continue to go ahead with the resolution. >> as the first line in the joint declaration highlights, the core issue is is iran in compliance with international obligations under u.n. security resolutions. iran has failed to pass that test of to this point. iran says it is willing to cooperate with the iaea, yet we have been calling for the for several months. we will see what the response is.

iran has said it was willing to engage seriously with the p5 +1, but is it willing to address the concerns we have about its nuclear program. there are still some questions, and they will be guarded not -- guided by iran's actions and not just words. >> if it is not going to postpone any further movement on sanctions, why would it expanded field? >> the burden is still on iran. is it willing to come forward and address the international community's concerns. if it is, that can have an impact on the broader process. there are reasons to believe what is in the declaration is just another version of what

iran has said in recent months, yet failed to address. >> why don't you give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are going to take the enriched uranium out and give it to turkey. is that enough to postpone sanctions? >> no. >> [inaudible] how much were you informed of the efforts? >> we had questions prior to their arrival in tehran. i am not aware of specific contacts. >> some american diplomats are saying secretary clinton and national security advisor jones have been feverishly -- >> i can tell you the secretary

had conversations over the weekend with the foreign minister updating our efforts in new york, and she had a conversation with the foreign minister of mexico about the state visit. those were the calls she had with her counterparts over the weekend. >> did she commit the united states to signing off on the deal if they run -- if iran would get the uranium out immediately and put it under monitoring? >> as the secretary said, there are clear concerns the international community has. if iran is finely willing to address those concerns, we look forward to that commitment. she said she was skeptical that iran would come forward with a meaningful proposal, and we're

still evaluating what is in the joint declaration. >> [inaudible] >> no, but we welcome the fact that turkey and brazil continued to try to engage iran and see if iran is willing to come forward and address international concerns. it remains to be seen whether the joint declaration passes the test, and as i have outlined, we have many questions about whether this represents something new or whether this represents a warmed over version of something iran has put forward before. >> are you willing to sit down with iranians and discuss the agreement? >> we have been willing to sit down with a run for months to follow up on the meeting we had

in geneva on october 1. it has been iran that has failed to engage in a serious way. >> it sounds like you are willing to talk to the brazilians, because maybe those countries have more confidence and more trust in those countries than they do infan th5 +1. do you imagine turkey and brazil becoming a part of this process? >> let me outline what iran has failed to do. iran has failed to respond specifically to the iaea, regarding the tehran research proposal put on the table on october 1. iran has failed to agree to a follow-up meeting with the ps 5 plus one from october 1, because as indicated in public

statements, they're willing to talk about any subject but the one the international community is most concerned with, so if iran says it is willing to engage, they have to be a book to take those on its nuclear program. that is a fundamental demand of the international community. >> was there any incentive to either brazil or turkey that they were making themselves essentially puppets on this issue? >> no, we have in multiple conversations with turkey and brazil, going back a number of weeks. we have reiterated what the core issues are in the process, and turkey and brazil have a firm understanding of what we're looking for. >> are you giving washington in

the sense that they thought they could make any headway, that they would try to do so and that the u.s. would try to encourage them to go beyond the scope? >> we have said many times, we seek a diplomatic solution to the challenge, but the burden is on iran. iran has to come forward and a trust international concern. iran has to come forward and indicate it is prepared to cooperate constructively with the iaea. iran has to come forward and indicate it is willing for euan security council resolutions to expand its in richmond program while we work with iran on how it can pursue its fundamental rights for nuclear energy. it is iran that has defied the

rules it is iran that has to affirmatively show its program is for peaceful civilian purposes. these are iran's failures, and others are prepared to respond, but the burden is on iran. >> are you ready to take yes for an answer? >> we are willing to take yes for an answer if this begins to address the international community's concerns. we have questions and remains skeptical this is what iran is willing to do. >> if you see the fine print, and you think it is everything but there are some elements, are you willing to negotiate over this deal?

>> we are willing to engage any time provided iran is prepared to address international concerns about its nuclear program. it is iran that has failed to do that for many months. >> the israelis seem concerned about this deal. has anyone been on the phone with the israelis? >> we are on with the israelis every day. the secretary has not had any conversations. >> they are drafting a solution? >> that is one reason we continue to work this on two tracks. on the one hand, we continue to pursue diplomacy. on the other hand, we continue to pursue efforts to put further pressure on iran. we do not see these as either or propositions. >> you reserve the right to withdraw from whatever it is

fair to agreeing to. >> the devil is in the details. iran has indicated it is willing to send in rich uranium outside of the country. on the other hand, the real question is how will the iaea be able to take control of this material and supervise the transfer of fuel for the trr. this is a role we properly and fission, yet there are some caveat say this remains -- we properly in vision, yet there is a caveat that still remains. >> the white house statement. what is the position of the international community, or how many countries are supporting

the u.s.? >> i think there's strong unanimity in the international community, that iran is not in compliance with international obligations. iran is in defiance of a number of resolutions. i will let different countries' define their own position, but we think there has been significant progress on efforts to make sure iran understands they will continue to be consequences for its failure to live up to its obligations. >> are you aware of specific efforts by brazil, that brazil is going to continue with its efforts on diplomacy? >> we will disconcerting -- consulting broadly in coming days to determine however one views this document.

it would not surprise me if we will have conversations with brazil and turkey as well. >> you have not talked with them since they reached the deal? >> no. >> do you think the delay is on the new resolution of the security council? >> that is a question i cannot answer at this point. it is not going to deter us to continue to work in the security council on a draft resolution. >> just one more on the role of turkey and brazil. these countries seem to be able to -- you might argue they are stalling with turkey and brazil as they have been other countries, but some countries are arguing that iran was able to feel more comfortable to

negotiate with these countries. does that say something about the role of the p 5 plus one? they might be able to coax more out of iran than the u.s. has been able to? >> i think they have countries that are on the security council that there going to be presented with a draft resolution at some point in the near future. they have assumed the responsibility to see if the situation can be resolved. we respect the efforts of turkey and brazil over the weekend. this is what we will be working through in the coming days. what does this represent? there are those that might characterize this as a breakthrough. we have remained skeptical. >> you say you respect their efforts. do you support their efforts? >> the real issue is what is iran prepared to do in any diplomatic effort -- and any

diplomatic effort that if iran to change course we support. the question is whether they have offered anything new today, and we remain skeptical. >> [inaudible] >> the details count, so what is iran prepared to do. if iran is prepared to address international concerns, if iran is prepared to suspend its enrichment program, because remember, it was iran that said it was enriching a 20% in order to provide fuel for the tehran research reactor. if iran is prepared to except the fundamental real offered as part of the they trr, then what other justification does it have

to enriching to 20%? it has no justification, and just the other day the foreign minister reiterated to the ambassadors in new york set regardless, they were going to continue to enrich to 20%. that is in defiance of the u.s. security council resolution -- the un security council resolution. >> do you have a measure to get you in the negotiations? if you never said this is not going to -- you were the one that proposed the deal. >> along with france and russia. >> so you never said that this was not going to be enough, and you did not poopoo your own plan. you thought it was a great plan, and you were hoping iran would go with it. now it is virtually the same

plan, but you are totally poopooing this plan which is totally the same plan that they did not take you up on. >> it depends on the details. first thing iran has to do is respond formally to the id a -- iaea. what role the international community will play in this transfer. this could be progress, but it would depend on iran's formal answer and what iran is actually prepared to do. .

-- deput national incident commander of the u.s. coast guard. this hearing is chaired by joe lieberman. >> nor do we seek to determine which elements of the well failed or who was responsible. those are critically important questions, but other congressional committees, executive branch agencies, and private groups have already begun to explore those questions. our focus today is on preparedness and response. the preparedness and response of our government and the private businesses in of all to this accident -- and prite businesses involved with this

accident and the oil spill after it occurred. with the companies a government agencies prepared for a deep blow up like this one? how have they performed in response? those are the big questions that we hope to begin to answer this afternoon. we owe it to the american people to learn from this catastrophe, not only so that we can do everything we can to prevent anything like it from happening again, but also having in mind our focus on preparedness and response so that we can guarane that if it does happen again, the oil companies and the government will not be left to scurry about trying to figure out how to stop the oil gushing into the gulf like firefighters trying to extinguish fires already burning and consuming a neighborhood. instead, hopefully they will learn lessons from this spill and will be much better prepared to respond quickly.

under the home and security act -- homeland security act and homeland security directive no. 5, the department is charged th coordinating the federal response to major disasters. the secretary it is further charged with coordinating activities of the private-sector and non-governmental players in response to the disaster, and must ensure the disaster information is gathered and disseminated to the public and private sector officials. the united states coast guard is specifically responsible for managing a marine oil spill cleanup. a host of other agencies of our government -- the minerals management service within the department of the interior, the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration, and the environmental protection agency -- also have critical responsibilities in this crisis.

and of course, the private sector companies have enormous obligations under law. in fact, much of the actual cleanup is being conducted by contractors that bp has hired to respond to the spill. and as provided by law, the private companies responsible for the spill will pay for cleanup regardless of who is carrying out the response. we know that the oil companies spill-- companies' response plans must be filed and approved by the minerals mining service or wells and by the u.s. coast guard for drilling vessels or rigs before any drilling can begin. this afternoon, we're going to ask whether bp as adequate incident management and response plans and placed it at a time --

in place ahead of time to guide their response efforts. did mms require such adequate incident management in response plans? did the plan specifically, the consequences of a blowout, oil and gushing 5000 feet under water? we want to know what plans are in place to guide the coast guard and other agencies in their response. what capability to the department of homeland security, defense, and other agencies make available in the early days of the oil spill? did they act quickly enough? what response capabilities will be made available as the disaster continues? we will also ask whether the gornment was forced to over- rely on the oil companies' expertise and information here. did the government have knowledge of the disaster independent of what bp was telling it?

i would say myself that i have spent, since this accident and spill, some time studyingwhat the law requires of the oil killing companies and our government, and which -- the oil-drilling companies and our government, and what should be on the response plans filed by the u.s. coast guard and the metals mining service for t deep horizon -- and the minerals mining service for the decries and wells. i emerge with an unsettling tentative conclusion and questions i hope can be answered today by our witnesses. there is one set of witnesses that are not here, and must say that is from mms. i regret that mms leadership has chosen not to appear before our committee today, because really, they need to be asked the same

questions i am going to ask homeland security, coast guard, and bp. mms, as i mentioned, must approve or reject the response plans for the wells, coacwhich s where the accident occurs, where before thisould be drilled. i do want to say this afternoon that if appropriate and constructive, our committee will ask the secretary and/or leadership of mms to appear before us at a later date. here come in brief, is some of what i have concluded tentatively, and the questions that most need to be answereby our witnesses. bp was required to submit an oil response plan to mms. under law, this can be regional

or a specific to a particular well or rig. almost 10 years ago, december 2000, bp filed only a regional response plan, and mms accepted it without asking for more. bp satisfied the legal requirements. but the question is, was it adequate? i am sure that mms has asked for more. that plan was most recently revised on june 30 of last year. my first question is, should the government have been satisfied with only at regional response plan instead of one for each well, and one that was filed almost a decade ago? second, more important, did the government, through the minerals and mining service, require an oil spill response plan adequate to the widest range of possible dangers, including the failure

of a blowout preventer? it sure appears that date did not. the response plan, which bp file and was approved by the minerals mining service, as required, it included an appendix which identifies worst case still some areas and proposed methods for responding -- worst-case-spill scenarios and proposed methods for responding. in its plan, bp foresaw such a worst-case scenario for a deep water blowout resulting in more than 250,000 barrels of crude oil every day. people will been following this crisis know that that is much more than what is actually being discharged in this horrific

spill occurring and the gulf today. the estimates range from the low of 5000 barrels daily to the height of 100,000 barrels daily. but here is the problem -- in the response plan approved by the mineral and mining service, bp said it could use booms and skimming vessels and disbursements to count or collect more than 490,000 barrels a day. but that was mostly from the surface, where booms and skimming vessels and dispersants are mostly effective. as far as i can tell, and know and want ask, those meths don't deal with th enormous accumulation of oil are occurring now under water in the gulf. rertedly as large as it can --

as 10 miles long and wide in more than 100 feet quick pit was that the foreseeable consequence of the blow out? if it was, why didn't the metal and mining service required that the oil comny had a better plan for responding to the consequence? finally, and perhaps most important -- in the approve the bp response plans, there appears to be, in the end, total reliance on the block printer -- blowout preventer as the last line of defense, as if a blow out to prevent it could not fail. but blowout preventers hav failed in the past, no where near the consequences of this one, but they have failed. no plans were filed or

requested on what to do to control a spill if the blowout preventer in deep water failed, as it did in thcurrent case. so i want to ask why not. what can be done to prevent another failure of it blowout preventer in deep water, or to control the spill more quickly and effectively if it does? until those questions are answered satisfactorily, i don't see how oour government can allw any more deep water drills to be permitted or drill. i say thatith regret, because i know how important offore american oil is to our nation's energy independence. but the u.s. government has a responsibility for protecting public safety that is more important. that responsibility, i fear, was not fulfilled in this case prior

to the accident occurring. the result is the human environmental and ecomic catastrophe that we are now witnessing in the gulf. senator collins. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. chairman, as we began this oversight hearing into what is certainly an environmental catastrophe and what is likely to be an economic disaster, let us also remember what a personal tragedy this incident i for the families of the 11 workers who lost their lives after the explosionocked and sank the deep water horizon oil drilling platform nearly four weeks ago. we know when this catastrophe began, but none of us knows what will end.

-- none of us knows when it will end a b. oil continues to gush from the well had nearly a mile below the surface of the gulf of mexico. despite recent successful efforts to siphon off a portion of the oil spring from the broken pipe, the waters of the gulf are slowly becoming a sea of crude oil. expanding plume is menacing the fragile ecosystem of the gulf, potentially damaging a vast array of sea life, at the environment, and features of american-- futures o americans who live and work among the gulf coast. every day some 5000 barrels of oil are flowing into the gulf. but recent expert estimates place that number as high as

70,000 barrels. hundreds of that federal officials and coast guard personnel and scientists and engineers and officials from british petroleum search for solutions to fix this urgent problem. how do we turn off this fossett of oil that is stuck open nearly -- this faucet of oil that is stuck open nearly a mile under water? we have learned about the challenge and response efforts, but there are still far too many unanswered questions. we will ask what the government and industry could have done differently to avoid this catastrophe. we will ask how continuing damage to the gulf of mexico can be mitigated, and how this bill can eventually be stopped.

as the coast guard, not noted, the technological ingenuity -- as the coast guard commandant noted, the technological ingenuity needed has parallels to the best commission for apollo 13. -- has parallels to the rescue mission for apollo 13. but this te, in a deep ocean environment that is dark, cold and unforgiving. there are some 90 rigs drilling in the gulf right now providing 1.7 million barrels of oil today, or nearly 1/3 of total u.s. production. according to the federal mineral management service, only 0.7% of the drilling platforms are searching for a while in what is deeper than 1000 feet. yet more than 50% of all leases

are in this deep waters. clearly, oil companies believe there is much promise in deep water drilling. therefore, there could be a rapid expansion in this area in coming years. in light of the deep water or ice and disaster -- in light of the deep water horizon disaster, we should examine whether we need deepwater drilling operations in these challenging condions. until we figure out what went wrong, i believe the administraon is correct in calling a pause to the approval of further drilling in deep waters. mms has the responsibility for reviewing and approving oil response plans for drilling and conducted on offshore rigs like the deepwater horizon.

we need to explore what level preparedness mms requires for companies seeking to drill in this hazardous environment. for the coast, to effectively perform its role in marine -- for theoast guard to effectively perform its role in marine environmental protection, it muswork close with mms and the private sector to be prepared for a worst-case scenario. to that end, i was surprised to learn that the current lease has no requirement for mms to share oil spill response plans with the coast guard. how can that be? it seems to me that mandating concurrent coast guard approval of these plans is the common sense change that we should make immediately. today we will also hear more about the depament of homeland security's coordination

of the response to the spill. the federal government and the private sector have committed substantial resources to respond to the spill. those efforts will certainly continue. but concerns have been raised regarding the adequacy and timeliness of resources committed to this effort in the initial days of the blowout. furthermore, with the administration's proposed $75 million cut in the coast guard budget, it is a question in my mind whether the coast guard can continue to maintain sufficient capabilities to respond to this and future disasters along with performing its myriad other missions. surely, this catastrophe should prompt the administration to

reconsider the ill-conceived and budget cuts. it is always the coast guard, whether it is hurricane katrina, the crisis in haiti, or the oil spill in the gulf cst regn, that is always first to respond. and the last thing we should be doing is reducing the number coast guard personnel, uniformed personnel, by more than 1000 individuals, as the administration's budget proposes. finally, the priva sector must accept responsibility for this failure in modern engineering, at the liability -- and we need to take a close look at the liability caps to see if they are still adequate. this oil spill, when it finall does conclude, will be recorded as an epic catastrophehose impacts are likely to be felt

for a long time to come. >> thank you very much, senator collins. we will go right to secretary boller totten. -- secretary napolitano. to say the obvious, you have one of the toughest jobs in america but i appreciate what you do every day and your willingness to come before us. the oversight of original jurisdiction over your department for this testimony this afternoon. thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman, senator collins, members of the committee. i look forward to the opportunity to testify about the response to the bp oil spill in the gulf of mexico. some of your questions are probably better directed to the department of interior or british petroleum itself, but i will not be -- i will be

testifying about what happened, the original response, and the real admiral neffenger is here to answer any questions of a technical nature that i myself are not able to answer, although i must say that i have learned, as we all have, a lot about oil spills over the last fr weeks. i want to begin by thanking the men and women of the coast guard, who have been at this event from its beginning. they have worked quickly, tirelessly, in response to what, as senator collins rightly noted, is one of the most devastating environmental disasters that this nation has ever faced. and i want to express my condolences to the families of the workers whose lives lost in the explosion. it is a constantly evolving situation.

the federal government has brought all resources to bear to limit this bill -- limit the spill's economic and public health and tax and make sure that the communities and resources of the gulf coast are restored by british petroleum. dhs is the coordinating ency . this may be the first time that the homeland security directive no. 5 has been laid on a national framework, allowing us to court and it across many agencies and to the concentration and involvement necessary for this spill. we are working 24/7 in close coordination with state and local partners to make sure that the access and personnel and equipment anthe impact speaks of their extensive efforts. first, i would like to give you a quick update on the current

status, and then i would like to give you some detail on the original response, because it is of some impoant interest by many of you. .

deployed within 24 hours or 5 miles of oil, which ever would be sooner. oil and water have been national response team and for

seventeen staging areas are currently set up to protect we have approved the use of up to 70,500 national guard members, more than 1450 are currently deployed. all shipping channels and ports a need arises. the flow of oil. yesterday ppl tenzin another test to contain some of the oil inserting a small pipe into it, carrying oil directly up to the surface to a collection vessel. as of this morning, bp reports the pipe is recovering some oil and gas. there is no confirmation yet on the rate oflow.

to achieve the highest even if this is successful, it mitigate this bispill's impact. we're moving toward a strategist to stop the flow of oil. bp states equipnt for a technique called the top kill, which will pumpeavies' liquids into the well and stop the flow of oil. this is expected to start at the

end of the week. as i said earlier, the response to this incident began deepwater horizon occurred late aircraft beginning a large salce search and rescue. we were already beginning to this tragedy. on the morning of thursday, april 22, and the oil rigank.

700,000 gallons of diesel fuel on board. this prompted the immediate of activation of the national response team. this included leadership from across a bridge across the federal government to the epa and department of defense, commerce and interior. i lead the nrt for coordinating the federal response. that same day president obama had a principals' meeting about the incident. at this time, there were no apparent oil leaks, but 100,000 pontially affected communities along the gulf coast. -- sunken rig was found on the

ocean floor. the nrt orred to plan ahead in case this situation 24, bp found the first two weeks and alerted the federal e first three locations were

commander.

above the surface, we continue to conduct controlled burns, skim oil, and ply chemical dispersants to reduce the amount of oil and break up the slick offshore. we are deploying boom to affect cleanup or in other ways can we are ensuring that this -- communities, and businesses that result of this bill. can be filed on line.

been filed by affected looking ahead, the strong response that we have environment,conomy in the gulf questions. i kept referring to mms by the it is the mineral management rvice. but the records show. -- let the record show.

it is really quite enormous. the government is involved in the government is involved in. i want to go back again to some of the questions i raised in my opening statement, and this really goes to preparedness uniquely for our problem with a deepwater well. i will ask you, madam secretary, and this may be technical stuff, but here is the question, and let me speak to someone who has as we watch the company, the to figure out how to close this prepared to deal with this kind of problem. in fact, as the company said quite honestly, they had capped

concluded or anyone in the >> let me divide it, if i might, mr. chairman, into before the before the blood while it is clear that there was an

i have read some of the same have been extensive plans prepared under the national there are area contingency from state localities and parishes. those plants not only exists, but are exercised on a regular indeed, i think there was an area response plan for an oil-

commander for that exercise. >> we now have to enormous problems, but i d not believe we were ready to deal with and

the company was not either. what you do when the people -- when the oil under the water, which is now accumulating in this massive plume -- does the coast guard -- i know u do a lot of drilling. do you do anything to deal with -- trained to deal with the consequences of a deep water well explosion? >> we do not drill this specific scenario, mr. chairman. what the secretary was referring to was a spill of national significance. we do drill for massive oil releases. in this case, we did drill in 2002 for massive oil relief. it was not like the specific scenarios. >> wasn't as deep as this? >> no. it was not.

>> my understanding is that, increasingly, in the gulf and other where -- other places, we're using deepwater drilling increasingly? >> i do not know the exact number of deepwater wells. it is about 1% of all of the wells. i would have to refer to someone else for the exact amount. there is increasing activity in the deeper parts of the und continental shelf. >> you have the responsibility for improving oil spill response plans from what i would call the rig. the merals management service from the interior has to approve those plans, no matter the depth of the well. i wanted to ask you two things. one of them is going back to something from my opening statement. does it make sense that bp was

enabled to file just original response plan? that presumably would cons -- cover both deepwater and more shallow water wells, as opposed to a specific responselan, particularly the deepwater wells? >> we require specific response plans for each vessel that we think might have the potential to discharge. >> that is very important. you have a different approach than mms does on that? >> yes, sir. we do. >> my time is winding down. i think the secretary said it correctly and i agree witht from what i have looked at. there was total reliance put on this blowout preventer. in the end, it is a piece of equipment. they fail. there was evidence that the blow

out printer had failed in the past, not in large numbers, and never with the result of this kind. because the coast guard has a responsibility for marine oil spills, what do you think should be done to try to have all level of preparedness that allows the possibility, which may be rare -- we have seen the consequences are enormous. >> senator, this spill raises a lot of questions like that that we have to take a good, hard look at. this is clearly beyond what we anticipated being something that could happen. we never anticipated an ongoing release of this magnitude over this period of time. is is a very real question that has to be addressed. we have to go -- this is a very real question that has to be addressed. we have to go back and look to

review our various contingency plans. >> madame secretary i know you are working -- madame secretary, i know you are working with secretary salazar on this short- term investigation that the president has asked you to do. i'm sure you were doing it already. i hope you will look closely at this special requirement for protection. it seems to me that we have now all learned it applied to deepwater drilling, including a broad -- including the blowout preventers, which were not applied by mms before. the mr. chairman, whatever incidents that occurs, we learn lessons -- >> mr. chairman, with every incident that occurs, we learn lessons. the president has been very clr that further thewater drilling permits will not be issued until this -- deepwater the drilling permits will not be issued until this has been investigated and things have

been changed -- deepwater drilling permits will not be issued until this has been investigated and things have changed. what happened here? what should we -- what powers should we have that we did not have? what powers did we not exercise? was there over reliance on the b.o.p.? i think that we may perhaps -- there may be a few lawyers that it involved in some of that as litigation happens. the president was absolutely right last friday to say, this is not about who is responsible for paying. our work is to make sure that this well is capped, to make sure that it is cleaned up, to make sure that oil is prevented from making landfall, and when

it does, that it is cleaned up, that all claims are paid and paid promptly. that is the definition of this response right now. >> thank you. senator collins. >> thank you, mr. chairman. there was responsibility for approval of the oil response plan between mms and the coast guard. in my statement, i raised the question of why would you not have the coast guard -- the coast guard have some sharing of information with the mms, such that the coast guard would be responsible for some sort of concurrent approval of the plan? it does not make a lot of sense at first blush to have one agency responsible for approving the plan above the water for the

veel, and one -- a different agency in a different apartment -- different department responsiblef the plant applies to the wellhead. has there been any thought to at least broadening the coast guard's responsibility in this area, madam secretary? >> senator collins, there will be a lot of different things that we looked at as to who has what a 40 and what authority needs to be adjusted in light of this -- who has what authority and what authority needs to be adjusted in light of this. that is one of the questions we're looking into. >> i concur with the secretary. moving forward, we need to look at whether or not there needs to be a definitive statement with regard to that. we do have memorandums of understanding with the mms which would allow us to review those plans, but there is no requirement to do so. >> this catastrophe is the first

to be classified as a spill of national significance, sin that term was coined in the wake of the exxon valdez disaster in 1989. during the intervening 20-plus years, some have expressed the concern that because our nation has not been forced to respond to a major oil spill in such a long time that we have lost the expertise and institutional knowledge that is necessary for quick and effective response. indeed, in 2004, when the coast guard did an exercise in this area, the after action report had some troubling conclusions. i want to read from that. the after action report concluded, "oil spill response

personnel did not appear to have even a basic knowledge of the equipmt required to support salve or spill clean-up operation. there was a shortage of personnel would experience to fill key positions. ny mid-levels bill management staff had never worked on a large spill, and some had never been involved in an exercise." i know there have been two subsequent exerces since then, including the one hosted by the state of maine this sprin for which the after action report has not yet been written. what is your assessment of the expertise that we have today in government and in the industry to deal with a major oil spill? >> senator, i think you are referring to the 2004 drilling

in los angeles and long beach harbor. i was a unified commander for that exercise. those were my recommendations that you just read that came out of that. but you tend to agree with them. >> i did at the time. -- >> you tend to agree with them. >> i did at that time. we have done a lot to improve our ability. if you look at the subsequent exercises in the intervening periodic annual and try annual exercises that we do, -- triannual exercises that we do, we have learned a lot. we havnot had a major oil spill, but that does not keep us from preparing effectively for it. >> do we have that expertise now? >> clearly, if you are actually cleaning up oil, there is an expertise at you develop that cannot be developed in any other way. i think we have the capability

now. we have a lot of people who look at this over an extended time period. you the capability in the private industry with respect to the organizations who are required to maintain expertise. we still have a number of ongoing minor spills that provide opportunities for training people in responding. we have the capability. in the case of this oil spill, i have been very impressed. i've spent quite a bit of the last couple of weeks down in the gulf, around the area and at the command center, and watching the operations. i have been very impressed with what i have seen. >> madam secretary, you mentioned the federal resources that have been brought to bear on this catastrophe a the fact that the cows are -- the coast guard was on seen immediately. there have been some questions about whether resources -- the

coast guard was on-scene immediately. there have been some questions about whether resources were dispersed immediately. search and rescue was not focused on containing the oil spill. what is your assessment of the resources, the adequacy, and the timeliness, of the resources that british petroleum and its partners brought to the task in those initial days? ask thought you're going to a different question. >> i thought about asking you whether you were satisfied with the federal response, but i have a feeling i know what the answer to that would-b, so i decided -- would be, so i decided to ask

you about the private sector response. >> i want to give you the, "of the federal response. recognizing that tha-- i wanted to give you the ticktock of the federal response. you can go on t 24th -- we began to see signs of leaking oil. on the 28, you had signs of the third week from the -- third leak from the riser. this was an evolve in a spill. -- an evolving spill. i would like to reserve judgment on the adequacy of the private- sector response. i will say that british petroleum leadership -- the american head ofritish petroleum and the international head were in washington very quickly.

there were immediately assuming responsibility -- they were immediately assuming responsibility, which they should and have done. they have been in the command centers and in the staging areas. they have been working, in terms of cleanup, and hiring local fisherman to help deploy a boom and the rest. whether the exact hours around the explosion and sinking of the vessel they should have had more or different equipment there or more different kinds of expertise there, it would be premature for me to say. >> thank you. >> thank you very much, senator collins. senator mccain in senator landrieu -- and senator landrieu. >> thank you for being here. what is your best-case scenario

and worse-case scenario about this crisis right now? >> obviously, we would like to see the insertion pipe continue to work and lift the oil off of the surface. we would like to see when and if the top killed methodology works and if the oil >> we, on the otherand, have from the beginning, not planned our response based upon numbers or based on 25,000 barrels. our response is geared to what is necessary to fight the oil on

d.c., to prevent it from hitting land and if it hits, to clean it up immediately. >> worse case scenario? >> that is we will be at this for quite a while. >> where do you think we are in either scenario? >> the insertion is in right w and if it begins to lift oil, it looks promising, and they are able to dohe film, that would happen by the end of the week. in terms of the drilling of the relief well, we are some weeks away, well into the summer. there is a bp witness after me. you might ask him. >> where is your vel of optimism? >> i am taking it day by day and

i think that is what we need to do. i think we need to say that we are in the middle of this crisis. we are not at the beginning. we have been added one month. -- at it one month. our job is to keep moving and to keep assembling, deploying, preparing, cleaning, and keeping track of what we are spending because ultimately, the taxpayer should not have to bear this cost. >> if youave dispatcd 17,000 natural guard to help all and cleanup? >> there have been up to 17,000 that have been authorized. i believe there are about 1000 that are actually working right now. >> what do you expect? >> it depends. it depends on whether we continue to see oil reaching the

shore. it depends, we have to start rotating people in and out, in terms of the wing flights over the boom and monitoring it and replacing it. it does not last forever out there. it is broken. we have to replace people with staffing, the four operating centers, and the like. over the course of this summer, we will see a number of the card deployed in those types of capacities. >> if you will indulge me, we think we have another crisis on the border and i sent you a letter on april 6 -- excuse me, back in march. he set me a letter back on april 9. and response to our request that the guard be sent to the arizona-mexico border. i quote and your response that

the guard has the capabilities to assist in the law enforcement missions. the use of e guard to support law enforcement options are -- efforts are one of the options being considered. i will keep you informed as to our force multiplication along the southwest border continues. do you have anything to keep me informed about? >> i do. we have been working the southwest border issue constantly. if i might, senator, we will give your staff for have not already a more extensive bruising -- briefing. i will use as my start date the date of the murder of the rancher near douglas. we hav increased flight hours

to 50% over the tucson sector since the day of that murder. we have 24/7 coverage of their and we continu to increase the fixed and wrote her wing aircraft we are flying on the tucson sector. we have moved, and i will give you exact numbers come up mobile surveillance -- >> i did not mean to interrupt. i know all those things are going on. i want to know as to whether you will send the guard to the border or not. >> as you know, let me give you one other thing we have added to numbers. that will be starting at the end of this month. we are beginning the process of interior repatriation of anybody we pick up. with respect to the guard, those

requests involve the department of defense, homeland security, the white house. that request and that analysis remains in that interagency process do we have any ideas as to when that decision might be made? >> i would like it to be made as soon as possible but i cannot give you a certain date. >> meanwhile, people's homes are being violated and their families cannot take kids to the bus stop. you are familiar with the issue because you asked the guard to go to the border back in 2006. i do not know what it takes for us to get a decision on it. it least the people in my state have the right to know whether,

since this is a longstanding request, it was requested back in 2009, i think they have their right to knowhether they will be sent or not. i would hope that you would expedite that pcess and at least telli us wther they are going to be sent or not. finally, if i might ask, have you had a chance to review the new law that this passed by the state of arizona? >> i have not reviewed it in detail. i certainly know of it. >> you are not prepared to make a judgment on it? >> that is not a law, let me just say this, as you well know, that is not the type of law i would have signed. >> for what reason? >> because i believe that it is

a bad law enforcement law. i believe that mandates that requires local law enforcement or puts them into a position they did not want to be placed in. when i was dealing with laws of that ilk, most of state law enforcement agencies in arizona at that time were opposed to such legislation. >> i would be pleased and right thing to hear what specific aspect of the law would impede or harm law enforcement since the majority of law enforcement in arizona strongly supports this legislation and unfounately,oth the president of the unid states and others have betrayed a as somebody cannot go out to the ice cream -- without being harassed and that is one of the most every just statements i have ever heard. the attorney general condemned the lot and then said he has

never even read it. this is an important issue not just in arizona but arod this country. i would hope that we would at least have a decision about if the guard will be sent to the border and of like to have the specifics, if you have time. i know it is not in your area of expertise but i know is a former governor, you have a significant interest as to what particular aspects of that law that you would find objectionable thank you. >> thank you for being here. i appreciate that you are here and look forward to your questions. >> thank you. my job is made somewhat easier because of the work that you and the ranking member had done and i mean that sincerely. thank you for calling this hearing.

i encourage deep collins of hearings by a variety of committees because the people i represent would like answers. they are extremely concerned. everybody along the gulf coast, particularly those along the coastal communities. i would like to begin by saying that the questions that you asked in your opening statement, i hope we get answers to them. i thought that they were excellent and right on pot. secondly, madam secretary, i want to thank you for your multiple visits to louisiana over the last several months before this incident happened, working on the last incident that happened as well as your time focused on this one and the many senior level officials that have been on the ground from the coast guard to the interior department to noaa to the epa. have not just sent the mid managers or newly appointed

directors but your cabinet officials have been there and continue and iet a good feedback from the public officials because of that. i want to on their behalf express our thanks. i would say that the people and louisiana are very interested in a couple of important questions, some of which you hit. when will this uncontrolled flow be stopped? is everything being done to possibly be done? when will claims be paid? will they be transparent? will they be adequate? what are the long-term impact to our fisheries? how can this industry be made safer for the future? i not going to ask you to respond to all four of those but in writing, i would like some rponse. i would likeo take a minute of my questions to put some things into perspective for this situation. i think it is important.

i did this of the oversight hearing on energy and at the oversight hearing for the epw and i would like to do today. there are over 42,000 wells that have been drilled in state and federal waters in the gulf of mexico alone. the first deep well was drilled 31 years ago. the first deep well, 31 years ago, in 1979. from that time and can predict until 2008, there have been 2239 deepwater wells drilled averaging approximately 133 wells per year. in 1990, only 4% of the oil coming from the gulf of mexico was responsible in the ep water. today, 60% of the oil coming

from the gulf of mexico comes from deep water and alter the water. the record will show that from 1947 until 2009, only 1000 -- 175,000 barrels had been spilled out of 16 billion produced. that is about 1000 of 1% of production. until this happened, the record was good. the problem is, this blowo is putting more oil in the water in one and a half days that has been put in the water in the last decade. that is startling to those of us who are fairly familiar with the industry. we are extremely concerned and want it to be safer. i support the president's 30 date look. i certainly support tighter controls over deep water wells and would say to the committee that we pioneered this technology. it is important that we get this

right because it has a major impact on how these are drilled around the world. if ours are safe, most other countries will be safe. we have an obligation not just to ourselves but to the people of the planet. let me ask a couple of things. i am extremely interested in how much money to our government has spent on research and development either through homeland security, epa, noaa, or interior door? do you have a record for your own agency? do you know if any money and if so, the dollar amount or what percentage is spent on response to a catastrophe like this? if you do not have that number, could you give it to me in writing and perhaps comment generally on if you think homeland security is doing what it needs to do to be better prepared for an incident like this? >> as i said earlier, you learn

from every incident. you begin with a plant then you exercise the plan but as any incident coordinator will tell you, you have to work the problem at that point. that is whate have been doing. i will tell you that we are accumulating the costs that we are expending in our response. that includes the coast guard. it would not be an insignificant sum. we have asked that the nrt other federal agencies keep track of the costs of the money they are spending. sincwe are in the middle of response, i think you would be premature to give you an estimate. >> i just want to restate on this, i note that we did not have the full estimate of the costs. i am assuming that bp is going

to step up as they have said and cover all of these costs for individuals, businesses, the government at every level and i know that they have been forthcoming with some of the request, $25 million up to $1 million to some of the counties which has been impressive. we may need more than that. it is the research and development dollars in these major agencies and i am wondering, considering this industry, for bonuses and severance, have contributed $165 billion to the federal treasury since 1955. what percentage of our budget and their budget, i will be asking them, go to safety, equipment, new technology and clean up? we may need to invest more money to make sure this never happens

again. we are going to try to collect that data. my time has expired. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. thank you for leading the effort on this. if i may, let me start with the secretary. i am assuming that you have already done quite a bit of work with the governors to understand the scope and the nature of theirequest and could you give us an outline on what you think these next few weeks might look like? >> we have representatives of the governor's and all of the various command centers. we have a daily call with the governors. we are wking with them now on

what the claims process should be for states and localities. we are cognizant of long-term costs that may occur, such as fisheries that have been closed already. we are working our way through that. this comes under another statute altogether. the difference is huge because under the stafford act, the taxpayers of the west pay for the response. under this one, the responsible party is going to pick. we are in the process of making sure there is a good and easy procedure for those claims to be made. >> let me ask the rear admiral neffenger, if i may, fema for

example might burn to resources very rapidly on a major disaster. is that true with your agency and how you are dealing with this? >> as it -- as the secretary mentioned, we are spending money every day to manage this response. as she also mentioned, with the act for 1990 provides is the ability to reach into the oil spill liability emergency trust fund to fund some of those initial response actions. there is an initial $50 milli available. we can take a onetime transfer of another $100 million into that fund, which we have done and have been granted. that provides $150 million to the federal government for its response action. if that is primarily paying for coast guard activities at this point. >> either in this committee or other committees, we talk about

the coast guard and was shot down on the gulf coast and many times. in many ways, you are under and you have older ships that you're trying to update and replace. has the fact you have been hampered from a budgetary sense, can you see this and how are you able to respond to this? our budget situation has not hamper a response initially to this. for any agency, long-term sustained response is something that becomes a challenge. that would be the case no matter how many people you have. sustainability is one of the critical concerns we are looking at. how do you do this if it were to gon for an expanded -- extended period of time?

at some point, we have to look at the impact and the risk position we take throughout the rest of the country as we pull those resources from other parts of the country. >> i know that your office and fema and many other federal and state and local agencies try to anticipate various disasters and run through exercises to try to understand what would happen, will have you beenoing this in years past with a major oil event like this? >> every three yrs, summer in e country, we do what we call a spill of nationals signicance. that is full-scale deployment exercise where we stimulate a massive oil discharge of some sort the most recent one s on the northeast off the coast of poland, maine. we did a spill of national significance simulating a tanker oil spill.

the one that senator collins referred to was one i have participated in off the southern coast of california. we do exercises for massive oil discharges periodically throughout the country. every zone where there is a done contingency plan, there is a cycle of exercises that e required to be conducted on an annual, biennial, a try annual basis. if we exercise quite a bit but those full-scale exercises are every three years and not necessarily in every zone. >> it soundsike those exercises have paid off and how you responded to this. >> i think they have. the response that we were able to mount to this spill is a significant improvement over what you might have seen 20 years ago prior to the exxon spill. there is a robust exercise

oversight program that we have and they manage this program to about this country and watch the results. there is a lessons learned process for feeding what we have learned from those exercises, and we fight to -- we try to feed that into the way we would respond. my guess is more or less depending upon how well we can feed that in. we think that we have a pretty robust exercise program. it is one that connects federal, state, and local officials and the private sector to the extent that they can participate syou at least talk the same language anspend ti together. >> thank you. thank you very much for your answer i would like to note that in our subcommittee, the state, local,

private sector prepared this subcommittee, were having a hearing on may 25, to go into more detail about what each group has been doing. >> thank you. i would like to ask you if you would stick with us and we will do a second short round of no more than five minutes each. as i hear the questions back and forth, it seems that post-exxon valdez, the government and the oil industry worked together to get very good at dealing with a major spill at the surfa but i still remain to be convinced that we did enough to prevent this deep water accident in the well from occurring and that we areeady to deal with the unbelievable consequences of it under water. in that regard, we have been reading in the last few days that there are scientists who

lieve and are reporting giant deep sea plumes of oil in the gulf as a result of this accident, one of which measured 10 miles long, 3 miles wide and 300 feet thick in spots. what are we capable of doing to try to break that up? if we do not, what is going to happen to it? the consequences for the environment are potentially very severe. >> indeed, mr. chairman. first of all, we have to be careful right now about what is being assumed about the undersea plume. the head of noaa put out a statement this afternoon saying

that some of those early reports that had been made wereot based on observation and have not been verified and confirmed. >> that is important for us to hear. >> we obvioly need to continue to watch the undersea plant to the extent one develops in addition to the top of t sea spill. that process is being looked at with a consortium of government scientists that continue to look at what is going on underneath the surface of the ocean, what is happening there, and i think the noaa director responded very strongly that some of these early statements have not been verified and seemed inaccurate. secondly, the epa has approved

the undersea use of dispersants. as i mentioned, this is very novel. it is being done in a very controlled wait because every time we do something like that, you have to explore the environmental trade-offs that is being made. epa has a very rigorous protocol for how that will be done and continuous monitoring will happen. and those undera dispersants are being injected and have been injected over the last few days. >> i appreciate hearing that. it sounds like we are experimenting because this is something unprecedented and on anticipated by the regulatory process. admiral, but me ask you in so far as the coast guard has

supervision over marine oil spills, is there not a danger that these enormous plumes will be taken by the current and moved far away from the actual source of the spill and that could have very wide ranging and that instrumental effects? i think you are referring to the op current. we have been watching that very carefully. noaa is helping us to model the location. it currently shows to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 to 50 miles from the southern edge of this bill. as a result of that, we are preparing for potential impact on the southern florida coast. the other piece of that is it is likely that the kind of oil that will be picked up will be heavily weathered oil. if you are likely to see things like tar balls forming on the beaches which are a bit easier to manage.

this is not saying this is a good thing. i think it will be a more manageable peace than what we are currently looking at out in the gulf. >> let me quickly ask you, have you encountered any underwater sea plumes of oil of the dimensions being discussed? >> no, sir. this is the first time i have seen the light tt poses these types of complex ideas. >> secretary? i was just going to mention that in respect to the loop current, the numbers are being monitored very closely. and we are treating it as if it were its own coastline. in other words, if we were to see that the oil rally was beginning to move toward the loop current, we would begin doing some things by way of

dispersant and plumbing as if the loop current itself or a piece of the coast. >>hank you. senator collins. >> tha you. admiral, to follow up on the chairman's line of questioning, one of the concerns that i have is that nobody seems to really know what to do when you have this big of a spill under water. when we followed the events in the press of the various ways that are being used to try to contain the spill, and plug the well, the impression that you get is that there is no plan. . .

the first trip i made to the gulf was to a houston to find a solution. i would say that in the end this series of technological improvements we're seeing play out. we need to determine what was actually going on down there because there is no human cess to the site. everything we're seeing is through the lens of a remotely operated vehicle. that makes it challenging just to initially assessed what you actually have going on. i think the complexity it that you have a blowout preventer of

that failed as it was designed. we do not know why that happened. will take some time to determine that. it may remain that be the solution that we could get that to the surface. we have a complicated 5000-ft riser across the seat for work -- along which there are a number of leaks. that complicated the determination andow best to approach it. and then a hard determination of the pressures that may be inside there. it will take time to accumulate the knowledge necessary to know that next afford. if this had happened on the surface, you would see a much more rapid ability to come to closure on it. it's the death of below the service that makes it so challenging. the relief well has been held out of -- as the ultimate solution, whether it is the

approach is that you have right now. is the relief ll a sure thing? it is going to take a long time to bring it about. has this been done before? >> that is the question you want to address to the bp witnesses. >> i will, but i uld like to know the admirals' opinion on that. >> i am not a pulliam -- petroleum engineer or geologist, but in talking to those that are, they have done relief wells before and i concur with the secretary that that is a good line of questioning for bp. the top kill, the technology they are using to plump the fluid into it, is attested fluid -- method. they have used that many time. when you're just done with the well, you put this in.

i understand that that is a regular method for doing so. particularly for the blowup route as far as the relief well, i note that it is a challenge and the secretary alluded to the challenge to have a small well for at a distance of 18,000 feet. >> madam secretary, i just wantedo comment -- this includes $200 million for civilian and criminal trials of the detaineeat guantanamo bay in the united states. since the coast guard keeps coming to the rescue over and over again, and since it is very difficulto find anyone who agrees with the plan tory guantanamo bay detainees in major cities, does it not make sense for the administration to submit a revised budget to

support the coast guard using thosfunds? >> i would be happy to transmit that message to the white house. >> sounds like the beginning of a meeting of minds. i hope. senator landrieu. >> madam secretary, could i comment -- could you mment on a letter that i understand you received about a question we ask about the in addition to fulfill their obligations. a copy of that letter is in public record. would you comment on your understanding about what they wrote, which is pretty clear? we are prepared, they say, to pay $75 million on these claims and will not seek reimbursement from the u.s. government or from the trust fund. we reserve our right to recover from other parties that may be

responsible. you have received this letter. what is your understanding of their response? >> my understanding is that they are going to pay all of the legitimate claims. i think they mean non-fraudulent claims. and without respect to any cap, whether or not it applies, but they seek the right to recover contribution of the likewise from other entities such as transocean. >> let me ask you about claims. there are thousands of individuals and businesses that are concerned. some have already been directly affected. some are thinking they may be fected, d because there is somewhat uncertain about the situation, we do not know how long it will go on. it is important, i think, to try to be as clear as we can about how people might actually received assisnce. a readingof the oil pollution

regulations act indicates that the trust fund may not reimburse clients for the costs they incur in repairing and filing their claims -- preparing and filing their claims. i know you are trying -- your office the reports to you is trying to make this process as simple as possible, and i have been told by bp that they are trying to make it as simple as possible, but im wondering if you can comment on the availability of technical assistance under the existing claims regime -- it is clear that people cannot and reimburse for an accountant that they might have hired to get the documentation in order, they cannot be reimbursed for x, y, and z. we're trying to keep people from being out of pocket on anything. are you familiar have on how these claims are actually being

paid? can you give any comment and get support from additional resources to help people? >> the continual and involving nature of this event and some of the questions that are being posted day are of all the answers as well. but there is a claims process, there are 800 numbers, there are roll over numbers if you cannot get through on that. bp has opened the way to file a claim on the internet. the issues u will raise -- how does someone get reimbursed for -- let's say you own a small business and you have had to hire someone to come in and get your records together about what lost properties you have had, because you're not able to sail during the season. those of the kinds of issues that we will now begin looking through. we have had some great people on

the ground there working through these issues in the unified command center. yoare right -- they do report to me. they're the same people that help us with cleaning up the remaining katrina claims that were there when i came into office. so those of the kinds of things that we are working our way through. they are the kinds of things that i suggest that if your constituents are asking you, if you would fall or those questions to us so that we know -- the question has arisen out there, what is the answer? if there is not an answer that we can shoot it to you, it means that we're not work our way through it. >> i will submit it because we found this to be very helpful in providing some grant assistance to nonprofits and others on the ground assisting fishermen and small businesses, because the documentation is important. you have to verify your claims

are legitimate. but if you do thato some of these businesses, it costs them money to prepare these documents and we want to make sure that we do not put businesses in the gulf coast at any mre of the disadvantaged that they already are. they also need help applying for aid from other government programs like sba loans, and this is money that has been appropriated. so i thank you for your comments. my time has expired. i will for those request to you. >> thank you, senator landrieu. senator pryor has indicated he has no more questions. so secretary napolitano and rattled neffenger, thank you for your comments today. secretary, what you're doing with secretary salazar to come out with a reform package, the best way i can think about it, to make sure that we'd better prepare -- we'd better -- we

better prepare for a deepwater exploration of this type, and for now thank you very much for what you are doing every day. we won all calledo the stand our second panel, lamar mckay, chairman and president of bp america. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> mr. mckay, good afternoon. i appreciate you being here.

you've heard but the questions and answers and that testimony f secretary napolitano and admiral neffenger. >> members of the committee, my name is lamar mckay and i am president and chairman of bp america. we have experienced a tragic set of events. nearly one month ago, 11 people were lost in the deep water rise and rick -- horizon rig and 17 others were injured three my deepest sympathies go out to the families and their friends who suffered such a terrible loss. those in the gulf coast communities are being severely impacted by this. and their livelihoods are being terribly impacted every day. i have seen the response first and. i have talked with the men and

women on the front lines. there is a deep and steadfast resolve to do everything we humanly can to stop this. to stop the leak, to contain the spill, to fight it off shore, to fight it at the shoreline, to clean it up, and to deal with the economic impact that it has caused and will cause. as a responsible party we will carry out our responsibilities to mitigate the economic impacts of the incident. our efforts are part of the unified commandhat was established within hours of the incident. it provides a structure for our work with the department of interior, the department of homeland security, other federal agencies as well as state and local governments. we have pledged our commitment

to work with president obama and members of his cabinet and the governors, congressional members, state agencies, and local communities of mississippi, alabama, louisiana, texas, and florida. we appreciate the leadership, direction, and resources that they are all providing. i want to underscore that the global resources of bp are committed to this effort and have been from the outset. nothing is being scared. everyone understands the enormity of what lies ahead and is working to deliver an effective response. at the wellhead, on the water, and on the shore head. before i describe our our round- the-ock response to these events, i want to reiterate estimates to find out what happens. the are really two the lines of inquiry here. first is what caused the explosion and fire on board the transocean are rising region

horizon rig. and why did the blowout preventer, the key fail-safe mechanism, fail? we're cooperating with the joint inquiry as well as investigations by congress. in addition, bpas commissioned an internal investigation whose results we plan to share so that we all learn from these terrible events. in the meantime, we cannot draw any conclusions before all the facts are known. we will continue fu speed ahead with our investigation, keeping all lines of inquiry open until we find out what happened and why. at the same time, we are fully engaged in our response to the devastating event. now our sub sea efforts to stop th flow of efforts are advancing on several fronts. our immediate focus is on the

riser injections insertion to that we talked about just prior. this involves placing a tapered riser to into the existing damaged riser, which is a primary source of the late, until the water tight closure is a cheap -- gas and oil then flows on moderate i own pressure up the roster to to the enterprise drill ship on the surface. we have successfully tested and inserted the tube into the leaking riser, capturing some oil and gas, and although this test was temporarily halted when the tube was dislodged, we of sense successfully reasserted the tube. we're now in the early stages of stabilizing the system aboard the enterprise. that is 5,000 feet above of the water surface. are additional effort is known as a top kill, a proven industry technique to capping wells that had been used worldwide,

although never at 5,000 feet of water. it uses a tube to inject an mixture of fibrous material directly into the blowout preventer to block the flow. this procedure is ongoing and the attempt could take one to two weeks. we also developed a modified containments on strategy. as you know, initial efforts to place a large containments some of them may -- over t main the leak song was suspended because of methane crystals. a second smaller containment do, being called a top hat, is actually on the sea bottom. it is designed to mitigate the flow of large volumes of hydrate. the technology has never been used at this depth. we're working to address the remaining technological and

operational challenges, should we need it. we also tested injecting disbursement directly at the leak, on the seafloor, under this anbar model protectants the agency and cause court approval. it first acts by separating oil into small droplets that can break down more easily through natural processes before it reaches the surface. some are testing in areas of photographs showed encouraging results. the unified command supported by the epa and other agencies has approved additional sub-sea applications subject to ongoing protocol. we also began the drilling of two relief wells on sunday may 2, and as of my 16, this well had reached approximately 9,000 feet below sea level. a second drill ship has arrived on site and yesterday began drilling a second relief well. the entire relief well operation could take approximately three months.

finally, we have succeeded in stopping the flow from one of the three existing lead points on the damaged well. all this may not affect the overall flow rate, it should reduce the complexity of the situation to be dealt with on the seabed. on the open water, we have a fleet of more than 750 response ssels that had been mobilized. in addition to using approved by a degradable disbursement at the weak point, we're attacking this bill with epa and coast guard approved disbursements on the surface. to protect the shoreline, we are implementing but the u.s. -- what the u.s. coast guard has caused the most massive shoreline protection effort ever mounted. awesomely 1.7 million of boons were not deployed with that additional be available. 17 staging areas are in place

and many volunteers have come for to offer their services. to ensure the rapid implementation of state contingencylans, we provided $25 billion to louisiana, mississippi, alabama, and florida. we recognize that beyond the environmental impact, there a also economic impact in many of the people who rely on the gulf for their livelihood. bp will pay all necessary cleanup costs and is committed to paying all legitimate claims for other loss and damage is caused by this bill. -- this spill. we are expediting payments to individuals and small-business owners whose livelihood have been directly impacted by this bill. the men and women who are temporarily unable to work. we paid out over $13 million to claimts, mostly in the form of lost income interim payments. we continued to replace this income for as long as the

situation warrants. we're responding to claims as quickly and efficiently as possible. starting this week, we will have been placed on online claims filing system, and our call center is open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. we have 12 walk-in claims offices opened in louisiana, mississippi, alabama, and florida, and we will open at least five more this week. their staff by nearl700 people with almost 350 experienced claimed adjustors working in the impacted communities. we will continue adding people, offices, and resources for as long as required. we're striving to be responsive and fair. we're taking guidance from the establish regulations and oth information provided by the u.s. coast guard, which handles and resolve these types of claims. tragic as this accident was, we must not lose sight of why bp

and other energy companies are operating inhe offshore, including the gulf of mexico. the goalrovides one in 3 barrels of oil produced in the united states. it is a resource our economy requires. bp and the entire energy industry are under no illusions about the challenges that we face. we know that we will be judged by our response to this cris. we intend to do everything in our power to bring this well under control, to mitigate the environmental impact, and to address economic claims in a responsible manner. no resource available to this company will be spirit. i can assure you that we and the entire industry will learn from this terrible event and emerge from its stronger, smarter, and safer. thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. i stand ready to awer your questions. >> thanks, mr. mckay.

i appreciate your statement. i know that the company has been doing everything that it has been asked to do and sometimes more since the accident occurred. i want to come back to the line question that worries me as we try to learn what happened. the fact is that in recent years bp andther energy companies have been increasingly drilling for oil in deep water. andas bp representatives had indicated, including yourself, i think, in this crisis, deep water presents a different sets of challenges from other offshore oil drilling. as i look at this process, it seems to me that the mineral manages -- minerals management service did not ask us enough of you and other companies doing

deep water drilling. the companies did not do enough themselves, including bp, to prepare for an accident just like the one that has occurred. very briefly by way of background, i noticed there was the study referred to me the other day, financed at least in part by bp -- you may be familiar with it. it said that blowouts' will always happen no matter how far techlogy and training in dance. another pre report which i have not confirmed but i believe is correct says that blowout preventers have failed in as many as 14 her accidents since 2005, although obviously none has consequential -- no as consequential as this.

so the metal management services required an oil spill response plan. but if i looked at it, if mostly tends to be all plan related to effects on the surface. although in one part of it, you were required to address the effect of anon "-- uncontrolled blowout resulting in oil flowing for 30 days from deepwater, i do not think at this depth. there is nothing in the plan that ic that addresses -- i see that addresses how you stop the leak under the water. so my question is, as you look back at this now, as your company has been jolted, and even though it is a massive

company, its economic strength has been threatened by this accident -- why wasn't more done as more of deepwater drilling was done to deal with the consequences of an accident if it ocurred at that depth? >> this as you know is a unique and unprecedented event. the spill response plans that are required by regulation are extensive. i could talk about that in detail. in the sub-sea, as you rightly point out, there ae no major regulations requiring sub-sea intervention plans. as we look at this accident in hindsight, we will have to look at what kind of sub-seat intervention capability is

planned or could be available. i would like to say that as the sub-seat resources are tremendous, we have to read deep water rigs working simultaneously in an unprecedented situation. >> i do not all of you on the research situation. i know that you've done everything it possibly could. but to me, the tragedy of this is that when that. >> was first lowered over the leak -- that a dome was first lowered over the leaked at such temperatures and high pressure, it struck me that if you had than ask by government or chose yourself to test that system before an actual blow out, you would have known that gas hydrates would form and that would be ineffective. we have been watching and you must feel as much distress as

the rest of us at how this scurrying around to try to find way to close elite at -- the leak at that depth. i feel that the government -- i did the government should have demanded, the mineral management services should have required it before giving a permit that there be a plan to deal with this kind of explosion, or you should it your own economic focus should have done it yourself. >> could i comment on that? >> please. >> the work that is going on is mulple parallel, simultaneous to try to get this under control. he mentioned the hydrates, we knew that hydrates could be a problem for that is something that we could try andet going and try to get it to work. this fluid is very specific in

you do not know until you try it. one of the complicating factors in this situation, we've got a blowout preventer that should have worked. we've got manual intervention at the man it -- if the blowup prevented it did not work. and now we have riser package on top of that that did not release. in many blowout situations, you mentioned 14 around the world, there have been more. you can get on top of the blowout preventer. this event has lakes along the riser. it is very unique. understanding sub-sea intervention capability and what are the plans, the plan as a model -- where the resources, how'd you get them -- agree that that needs to be looked at. >> i appreciated and i agree that that is the case. we also agree that too much reliance was put on a blowout

preventer. i am not an expert and i know more than i did before come but as i see a blowout preventer, it is a piece of equipment that somimes fails, particularly operating in unusual environments like 5,000 feet under the water surface. as you look back, did you in the government put too much faith in the blowout preventer as the lastine of defense? >> it is one of several lines of defense. is considered a fail-safe mechanism when youet into an emergency situations. there are other lines of defense that have to fail before you get there like the cement casing, and then well control procedures, and the blowout preventer is considered to be the methodology when you get in trouble to shut the well and release the rig a let it get away. i cannot commentntil we know what has happened.

double final question andhen i will yield to senator columns. on the relief wells being dug, it's quite remarkable that there are two of them -- two ways to get to where the problem is way under the surface under the water. which one gets there first -- two quick questions. the same question i asked the coast guard -- do you have a high degree of confidence that if everything else fails before then, that this is the one that that that will work? >> we do have a high level of confidence that the relief we will be -- will work. relief wells are used to control blowouts and permanently seal weld. yes, we have a high degree of confidence. >> i appreciate hearing that.

if as you said quite openly and directly that it could take three months, if all else fails this well could be spelling water into the gulf -- do you account from the day of the accident or drilling started? >> roughly three months to drill each well. >> this could take us to the end of july or august. >> we are doing everything that we can. and trying to stop a head of that >> understood. >> mr. mckay, i know that bp is trying it can think of to stop as well from gushing. it feels like you are making it up as you go along,hat no one really knows what will plug this well, what will stop the oil

from gushing, particularly since this has been so complex because you areealing with a leak in the riser pipe. it is not one source of leaking. what i am trying to better understand is the response plan. i do not doubt at all that you were throwing everything possible at this problem and you have extremely talented people working night and day and that you are fully cooperating with the government', but i am concerned that it seemed that no one had really planned for this particular scenario. is that accurate? is that perception correct? >> let me first say that this is an industry effort, not just bp. have over 90 companies working just in the houston office to get the intervention that we are talking about done.

there was not a response plan for saying -- per se for riser blow out on the relief bed. the plan for relief wells was not cemented but was available to be worked up very quickly. the other options that we're pursuing, the first and foremost was to get the blowout preventer closed. we had to do that in a situation where it has never been done before and we run into some issues with a blowout prevention that did not allow that to happen. while we're dog that, we were pursuing containment and collection systems, one that did not work very well, relief wells, and the surface responses that we plan. as well as a way to kill the well from the top of the blowout for vendor. one thing the admiral mentioned earlier that i want to highlight, it has taken awhile to see inside that blowout preventer and understand the

pressures. yocan raise and pressure probes to understand what is happening. then we can delineate and reduce risks for the next set of interventions. unfortunately we are frustrating -- we're frustrated as anyone that it is taken this time toward we want a risk analysis at around everything that is important and we're being diligent about that. it is transparent as well so everyone sees exactly what we' doing. i would say that we're not scrambling around three know, i cannot say that we have a plan to head all of these intervention at this but those were triggered from day one to get going on all of these options as quickly as we possibly can. >> bp did file a regional response plan for the gulf of mexico. in that plan, the worst case scenario that you present for offshore drilling is one of high

as capacity well experiences an uncontrolled flow out vome of 250,000 barrels per day. that is way more than this terrible blow out. what is different? is it that debt of the water -- the depth of the water? was this plan for shallow water? >> the response plan you mentioned contemplates worst- case scenarios. the planning itself envisions what resources are available in the gulf coast, how woulthey be organized, how would they be deployed, details about who would be called win, and how the resources uld be blocked in. whether it was a higher rate volume or other, we're enacting the plan with the coast guard and homeland security and other agencies, noaa, as you have

heard. that plan has formed the basis for what we're doing. that plan has been robust and i think is the largest effort ever mounted, and i think it has had an impact on what happened with this bill. >> but did that plan seek -- speak to how you contain the oil once it has billed as opposed to how you stop it? >> no, i am sorry, that particular plan is under current regulations more surface spill response plan for you are correct. >> that is my point. it seems like we're now in the scenario that was not envisioned. >> i think what i would say is that we are learning a lot from this and i think we will have to revisit what these plans mean in terms of intervention and the ability to contain or deal with something like this. >> i am told that two countries -- norway is in brazil --

require a backup mechanism to communicate with blowout preventers known as a cook -- and acoustics which rigid -- an acoustic switch, which is not required in the u.s.. should it be? >> we do not things up, because we had three triggering systems for the blowout preventer and then a manual intervention. this acoustic devices essentially another triggering device. it would have to be looked at through the investigation to see a fact that at some positive redundancy into the system. i do not know but i do not believe that it would have made a difference. >> do you think that u.s. regulations should be reformed to require this as a backup? even if it would not have helped in this situation? >> i think the regulation should

be looked at. anything that would make this a lower probability in safer should be looked into. >> there has been reports that the battery on a blowout preventer was dead. have yo confirmed that to be the case? >> a blowout preventer on the rig in the riser and all of the equipment are the property of transocean. i am not familiar with the condition of the batteries. obviously the investigation -- multiple investigations will look into that. >> you do not know whether or not -- to learn know, i do not. >> are there other special requirements that mms should impose on companies that are drilling in deep water that are different from the requirements for shallow water drilling? >> there are extensive regulions around deep water, very extensive. >> are there additional ones that you think we should take a

look at? >> we are learning what this and we're going to share everything we learned with industry and the government. i do think that some of the topics that we should look at have already been talked about. testing blowout preventers in enhanced ways, maybe extra redundancy and various systems, those of the questions that are being asked and the investigation will help us understand what happened. and i am confident we will figure out what happened. that is a very important thing and i am confident of that. >> thank you. >> thank you, senator collins. >> first like to suit senator landrieu's questions for the record. >> without objection, we will for them to the witnesses. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i had some questions of mr. mckay.

if you cover this in your opening statement i may have missed it. does bp havoc estimate of the cost of the company? >> no. >> the law says that bp is the responsible party and you have confirmed that to date. i appreciate that. you have mentioned that you will pay for the cleanup and all legitimate claims. that sounds good and all of that but a year from now, will we be sitting here in this committee or through constituent services like senator landrieu has, will be sitting here and learning of industries that are not covered by this and may be in direct losses, things like that? >> our intention is to cover all legitimate claims associated with this incident. we've been very clear that the bp resources are behind this. we are clear to accept our

duties as a responsible party. we intend to fully, fully lived up to that. we intend to stick with it. we're being what i think it's fair, responsive, an expeditious about how we're addressing claims. we continued -- we intend to continue that. our intention is exactly as stated. >> let me ask you about what might be the definition of a legitimate claim but also might be subject to argument, and tt would be a seafood restaurant. it gets its food from the gulf and if this is disruptive to them, what they qualify for a legitimate claim? -- will take guidance from agencies, and the coast guard has acted for years in determining the legitimacy of clams and we will look to that for guidance. >> i understand that the way

these drilling platforms worked out in the gulf coast is that bp's name is the big name but there are lots of co-contractors and other companies involved. will bp will be looking to those companies as well or individuals looking to those companies separately? tell us how that works? >> a me say very clearly. were concentrating on two things, to get the leak stopped and cleaned up, and then secondly, we as the responsible party will do with the economic impact. we will put blame a liability -- that is not our concern right now. >> let me ask you about the environmental damage that this bill will cause. like senator lieberman said a few moments ago, there are addition reports about the woes o well under water. to me, that is counter intuitive because i thought oil was

lighter than water and it goes up to the surface. can you tell us about that? >> i am not familiar with the details of the claim. i understand that noaa put out a press release questioning what that means. this oil does dispersed naturally as it is rising in the water column. not all that makes it to the surface. those particles are very small and they disbursed to the currents and through the water columns and gradually dissipates. i think what we're interested again, if someone has data on a plume to the terms of its extent, we would want to get that data. but we should be conscious -- cautious about defining what kind of plumes route there. >> you have mentioned sor. can you determine sonar to determine where the oil is in the water? >> to a certain extent. we have used it at the sub-a

leak. you can tune it to difrent sizes of particles. yes, it is helpful. right at the leak point, it has been helpful. >> and the disbursing agent that you're talking about, there have been some reports that these might be more toxic than the oil. >> the dispersals that had been used, they are preapproved, those are biodegradable, they are less toxic than the oil spill, and to let everyone know, one of the things about sub-sea is the efficiency of the disbursement for volume of oil content is quite a bit lower than at the surface. >> i do have a concern and others do as well about the existence -- the impact this will have on sea creatures like coral and sponges that act as

filters for the assertion and that these may not survive in the oil-type environment. do you any estimate on what we're looking at here? >> note, we do not but we are in the process to understand that and that is noaa as the lead trusty in the study that we're participating in to do a natural resources assessment. that includes baseline as well as potential damage. but it's easy to think about oil that washes up on the shore and beaches. is that the way old as on the sea floor? does it claim to the s floor for some are -- does it cling to the sea floor? >> some well and some will make it to the shore. this is a very light oil, so even in the current, it goes to

an emulsion. what we have seen where we have seen anything at all our emotions. >> there are ways to colle those in the water. >> in the water, i cannot say. >> is it safe to say that the environmental consequences of this bill may go on for years? >> we do not know the length of the consequences but we do know that we wilbe working with the federal agencies to understand, monitor, andeal with those consequences. >> i hate that as this next question but we have to. what with the attacks of a hurricane bay? -- what would be a fax of a hurricane be? the lawyers we are aware that hurricane season is upon us and we're doing everything that we can to get the stock before then. should the hurricane occur, it would be difficult to project

but we will be dealing with it in the best way that we can with moving resources out of the way and dealing with any of the impacts of this all going ashore. >> mr. chairman, i have one last question this round. it it follows with that last question and it would be -- today, what percentage of the oil has been recaptured? you have a chart that shows different ways to get rid of the oil or recapture the oil? what percentage of did have we been successful in getting rid of today? >> i do not have a number but i think it is a relatively small percentage. >> thank you, senator pryor. mr. mckay, thanks. i appreciate your testimony and all you're trying to do. i must say that in terms of lessons learned here, i end up where i began which is that oil

companies have been doing a lot more deep water drilling. you're doing it to respond to a demandand in some sense we are all benefits. our economy and people are all benefiting from this production of oil from offshore in american territory. we went ahead and did debt -- that without proper preparation for how to respond if there was an accident that deep under the water, a this has been -- to call it a wake-up call is horrendous understatement. i wish that you had done more to prepare for this but i must say as a member of the u.s. senate i hope that the federal government responsible for continuing to issue permits for deep water drilling without

demanding that the companies to receive those purpose be prepared to deal with the efcts of an accident, an explosion, to be better prepared to stop the leak under water then obviously you are now because you haveever had to do this before. and also to deal with the environmental consequences and to be prepared notonly to stop the leak but to deal with the accumulation of water if those steps in a way that is not clear -- accumulation of oil what those steps that is not clear to me that we are able to do. hose of the big lessons learned. they are painful lessons learned including your company. to restate what i said before, i hoped and prayed that everything you are trying to do to stop this oil from foreign

oil into the gulf works. oil into the gulf works.