. . >> this week, david and jeanne heidler, a husband and wife historian team who have written many books together. the most recent is about henry clay, a speaker of the house, senator, and secretary of state who made many runs for the u.s. presidency in the early 19th century. >> jeanne heidler, can you give a brief synopsis of who henry clay was?

>> he was probably the most important legislator in our country. i think that sums up his career. he is best remembered for running for the presidency and failing five times, but his legislation made a difference for the nation. >> david heidler, how many years was he in the house of representatives? how many years in the senate? >> he was in from madison's administration throughout monroe's. he went into the house in 1811. there was a brief interruption when he negotiated the treaty of ghent with britain after the war of 1812. he returned and was immediately reelected.

he took over the state department in 1825. he went into the adams administration. he does not go back into the house after that. he goes back to the senate. he is remarkable because of his speakership and the role he took in shaping the house. in the senate he was remarkable for taking what in essence was the majority leader's role before there was a name for that. >> when you look at this picture of him and his wife, what do you see? >> i see a sad woman. by that point in her life, she was very sad. she had lost all of her daughters, all six of her daughters at that point, and never really recovered. her oldest son was in an insane

asylum where he would die after her death. one of the things we do try to do with this book is bring lucretia alive. no one has really tried to do that. as far as henry clay's picture, it is what most people assume is their 50th wedding anniversary picture. he too has a sadness about him, sort of the resignation, i think. >> one of the things you notice in these pictures, and you see it a lot in those years, is that not anybody is smiling. why is that? >> one of the things is that flash photography was not invented, and you would have to be pretty still. they did not like a lot of emotion. they would actually use braces to freeze people into position. they did not like a lot of facial expression because it would blur and give you a blurred facial image. lincoln -- a mild smile, very

rarely do you see teeth. >> henry clay was born where and lived where? >> he was born in hanover county, virginia. just south of here. lived there until his early teens, after which he was apprenticed in richmond. after studying law in richmond, virginia, he traveled to kentucky with his family. they had moved there while he was in richmond. >> there is a painting of his home in lexington, kentucky in your book. where did the name ashland come from? >> from the trees that were on the property. >> if you were to describe him

physically -- he looked thin in all of his pictures. >> he was a fair tall man. he resembled in posture and build andrew jackson in that regard. he was not handsome by anyone's estimation, but at the same time, he had an animated way of speaking that was charismatic, drew people to him. many people say that you could never know clay from portraiture or photographs, because to freeze him in them is to drain all of the vitality and charisma out of him. he had a very wide mouth. as he puts it on his passport, the chin he describes as not particularly prominent, long nose, and translucent blue eyes

which no portrait painter ever really attempted to capture. it was like a weinmaner, the translucent blueness of his eyes had sort of a pale transparency to them. his voice was a deep baritone and very commanding. we mentioned in the book that daniel webster had the kind of a voice that could make water tremble and tumble. clay was the same. >> he became a senator when he was 30. >> he was appointed to fill out the unexpired term. he was about four months shy of his 30th birthday. they chose to ignore the law that you had to be 30 years old. there were comments and letters from some of his fellow senators that they thought he was a little below the legal limit,

but no one ever raised the issue. >> later, they used it to attack him as a perjurer for taking the constitutional oath. that was one of the arrows in his political enemies' quiver. >> he was just in the senate for a very short time in the the first time, went from november through march, and then from january through march of 1811. then he became a member of the house and got elected speaker. how did he get elected speaker and how many times? >> he was speaker virtually all of his career. there were brief times when he was not. i think he surrendered that post when he briefly -- >> when he left briefly in 1820 to deal with a financial situation. he became a lawyer again.

>> clay became speaker by virtue of events that were overtaking the country, and the nature of the incumbency in that time, which was that there was not any. the turnover in the house was quite remarkable. they per diemed these people. people were constantly leaving the house. clay came in while tensions with britain were about to boil over. there was a cadre of confederates in the house,(ñó" r hawks, for whom clay became the leader. they engineered the speakership, much to the astonishment of the old heads. they were surprised that the war hawks would give him the speakership. >> who served in the house with

him that we would recognize by name? >> john c. calhoun is probably the most recognizable figure of that time. john randolph of virginia, not as well known today, but probably the most famous person in the house. he was one of the people who was quite disturbed that these youngsters sort of took over the house. >> let's stop there and talk about the two duels he was involved in. humphrey marshall? who was he? and john randolph looks like he was a character. >> very much so. >> explain the duel thing. >> it was usually an issue of honor. reputation would be the modern equivalent.

if you allow yourself to be insulted and did not defend yourself, then you would be pushed around for the rest of your life. clay, one of the things that he said he was against, is that young men need to fight a duel just to show that they will do it. once they have demonstrated that they will do it, people will probably not try to push them around as much. humphrey marshall was a senior person in the kentucky legislature group, and he was a federalist as well. clay was very much a jeffersonian republican. they came at each other much for political reasons, but then it became personal. marshall, again, sort of like randolph, thought of clay as an

upstart. >> there was a big difference in the duels. what was the first one about? >> it was about clothes, oddly enough. there was a homespun resolution that was passed in the kentucky legislature that was supposed to be a commercial restriction against british manufacturers of fabric. clay, who was pretty dapper, began wearing denim suits into the legislature in more than a symbolic show of support. marshall said this was all claptrap, and took to wearing broadcloth of the finest nature as a way to differentiate himself. they were arguing about this when one of them, well, marshall intimated that clay was lying, and clay spun around as

though he had been struck. he was about 10 feet away, and ran toward marshall. he swang and hit somebody nearby. a german delegate stepped in between them and said, "boys, boys. do not fight." that evening, clay apologized, and marshall said it was the apology of a poultron, which is a coward. he gave a challenge the next night and they fought a duel. >> was anybody wounded? >> clay was wounded. >> how badly? >> he took a beating, but it was not serious. >> how many years later was the

duel with john randolph? >> almost 20. >> what was that over? >> randolph, in the united states senate, referred to the so-called corrupt bargain in which clay had thrown his support to adams in the election of 1824, and adams had then appointed clay secretary of state. the jackson people accused both of them of corruption. whatever arrangement they made, there was certainly nothing illegal about what either one of them did. in the senate, in 1826, randolph alluded to the whole incident, but then referred to clay as a "blackleg," which was slang for card cheat, or just a cheater. when clay heard about that, he challenged randolph. this was going too far.

he challenged, and randolph accepted. >> was anybody wounded? >> no one was wounded. in the first fire that was exchanged, no one was hit. they asked for a second round. clay aimed very carefully and hit randolph in the billowing coat he was wearing. randolph then aimed his gun in the air and said, "i do not fire at you, mr. clay." >> is there a book in there about randolph? >> a lot of papers went missing, whether they were destroyed after his death. he was a fascinating person.

not as influential as some of the more famous people. he was very eccentric. some would almost say insane. >> from where? >> who knows. he drank excessively. >> i mean, was he one of the randolphs of virginia? >> oh, yes. he was very proud of that. >> there was something wrong with him, physically. there is a lot of speculation. there was an autopsy on him when he died. well obviously when he died. they would not have done it beforehand. even randolph would have opposed that. it discovered that he was malformed in his genitals. there was no beard. he had a high voice.

it was as though he was arrested in preadolescence. he never got along with henry clay, despite the fact that henry clay was very congenial. randolph was extremely nasty. but he avoided gunplay for almost his entire life. he was challenged to a duel in 1806 by james wilkinson. he said it was beneath him to raise arms. >> you mentioned the corrupt bargain. henry clay ran for presidency five times. go back to the corrupt bargain

and the fact that he was secretary of state for how many years, and why? >> he was secretary of state for four years, for adams. john quincy adams was a one- term president like his father. the corrupt bargain rose out of the fact that in the election of 1824, there were four candidates. none of them received a majority in the electoral college. it went to the house of representatives. clay came in fourth, which according to the 12th amendment, meant that he would not be brought before the house. only the top three would be brought before the house. he was correct in saying that if he had been one of the top three, he could have used his influence to become elected.

but now he became a kingmaker, because he was still a powerful speaker, and he used his influence to get john quincy adams elected. >> we hear about the treaty of ghent all the time. what was it? >> it is from the war of 1812. it is an interesting arrangement, because it establishes status quo antebellum. it meant that everything was as it was before the war. no territory exchanged hands. no resolutions of any of the causes of the war. free trade, sailor's right, american commerce. impressment was not in the treaty. everybody was tired of the war. britain was tired of war in general. they had just finished their quarter-century contest with napoleon bonaparte.

they were prepared to stop fighting wherever they were fighting and regroup, and the americans were able to take advantage of that, creating the idea that in some sense the united states had martial glory and been able to stave off the largest empire in the world. >> how many other people were negotiating? >> james madison was president. he was appointed by madison. with him was john quincy adams, who was minister to russia at the time, a former treasury secretary was also sent, a representative from delaware. those were the four primary negotiators. >> was he the speaker at the time? >> yes, he was. he resigned from the house.

>> did he come back after that? >> he was elected to the house of representatives while he was still under his diplomatic commission. his opponents made something of an issue of that, and so they held another election and he won overwhelmingly again. >> this was all from lexington, kentucky. you mentioned lucretia throughout the book, and that is not often the case. how often did she come to washington? >> at first, she did come frequently. the second time he was in that the senate, she came with him. she was in washington when he received the appointment to go to ghent.

her brother-in-law escorted her and the children back home. it was winter and so they waited until spring. >> you mentioned her six daughters who died. at what age? >> four of them died as children. the two older of the daughters lived to adulthood and married and had children of their own. susan died, likely -- she was in new orleans. that is where her husband lived. she likely died of yellow fever or malaria, some tropical disease. she was 22. >> what about the boys? there were five boys? >> the oldest was theodore. he had an accident when he was a kid and had to be trepanned,

which meant that the brother- in-law, a surgeon, would open the skull and release fluid. he took a blow to the head. it was a pretty grotesque procedure. the family regarded that as the beginning of all the trouble. theodore was erratic and ultimately went crazy. he had to be committed to an asylum. he lived there until 1870. it was very sad, because he was quite lucid at times, and would implore his parents to come and get him as though there had been some mistake made. after a few years, that stopped, and he became virtually catatonic. the other boys were trouble. they troubled henry and lucretia. they had drinking problems.

thomas especially had to be bailed out while clay was secretary of state, out of a philadelphia jail because he could not pay his hotel bill. at ashland, they have the check that clay sent to the hotelier to settle his account while he was secretary of state. the exception to the boys is henry. henry jr. was a model kid, disciplined, eager to please, never give a moment's trouble. he paid for that in a way. clay hovered. he was a loving father, but he liked to be in control. the only time that we found that henry jr. did something against his father's wishes was when he went to mexico and fought in the war. and of course, he was killed.

>> and that was in what year? >> 1847. >> henry clay was 75 years old when he died. but before we do more on henry clay, how about you two? how many years have you been married? >> 29. >> and counting. >> where do you live? >> colorado springs. >> what do you do? >> i teach at the air force academy. i had been there since 1993. i am a professor of history. first permanent civilian in the history department. in 1993, congress mandated that the military academies, particularly west point and the air force academy hire a certain percentage of their permanent faculty as civilians, with no necessary military "é>jexperience, for a variety of

reasons. i was one of the first that came in. now about 25% of the faculty is civilians. >> how many courses do you teach a semester? >> two, typically. >> how big are the classes? >> they are very small. that is one of the things that attracted me. i have not taught a class with over 20 people for years. it usually is between 10 and 15. >> what is the number now of men and women? >> women, the numbers have increased. i believe it is over 20% now. when i started, it was between 10% and 15%. now i think it is around 20%. >> different in henry clay's day. >> yes. >> what is your profession? >> i am a historian too. an academic. i taught for a number of years in maryland, and then followed her to colorado and taught at the colorado state university

system until the late 1990's. we were working on a large project at the time which was a five-volume encyclopedia of the american civil war. with the commute i was having to make, it was decided that i should devote myself full-time to this, and that is what i have done ever since. we managed to get that project out, write some other books, and of course this one. i do not miss being in the classroom. the state schools are a little more demanding in terms of class size. >> when did you leave? >> about 1998, 1999. >> how many books have you two put out? >> 11 or 12. >> in addition to the encyclopedia, what else? >> we have also written about the war of 1812. we got to know about mr. clay a great deal during that project.

we read about andrew jackson. our first book together deals with jackson's invasion of florida in 1818 and the constitutional implications of that invasion, because of course, about a spanish territory. >> there is a speech to talk about in your book that henry clay gave about andrew jackson that you say started the division between the two of them. tell us more about that. >> well, it was as a result of that invasion. he made a speech in january of 1819, decrying jackson's actions as unconstitutional. >> where did he make the speech? >> in the house of representatives. >> you would not see a speaker of the house do that today. >> from the very moment he became speaker, he began using

the process of going into the committee of the whole. that would mean the entire house was in a committee session. he would designate somebody to preside over these committee debates so that he could participate. that was one of his greatest talents was as a public speaker. >> explain the atmosphere on that speech, on that three hour speech. who was in the galley? >> oh, the place was packed. >> why? >> as we say, when we assess his legislative career, seeing henry clay rise from his desk was like seeing a curtain go up on a great theater production. he had all of the props. he had a great voice. he had a natural way of speaking. it was not declamatory, more conversational. he spoke without notes, never a printed text.

he wove allusions and created metaphorical analyses that were captivating people. sometimes they could not gavel the crowds down. in this particular speech, he was in fine form. a lot of people thought it was probably one of the most serious mistakes that he ever made in his career, because he made an enemy out of jackson, and jackson never forgave someone who crossed him. >> what did he say about andrew jackson? >> he said that he had violated the united states constitution, because congress had not authorized this military going into, not just foreign territory, but jackson clearly violated his orders. he was supposed to go down there and chastise seminole. they had been accused of making raids into the united states. he chastised a few, but he spent most of his time

conquering spanish forts and attacking the capital of west florida, pensacola, which he was clearly instructed not to do. he made war on a foreign power. >> can you read that speech today? >> yes, it is in the annals of congress. >> a three hour speech. does it read well? >> yes, his speech is all very literate. we should note that there is some amount of editing that went on. these guys were able to go back and tweaked things to make them obviously a little more polished than they were when they were on the floor. but this was a demanding audience, not just the house of representatives, but the people in the galleries. this is a man who could command the chamber and the gallery.

they were incredibly astute. he watched people like patrick henry speak. he saw what worked and what didn't. he copied. he was a good emulator, and eventually developed a style of his own that was peerless. everyone who ever heard him remembered the first time they heard him. often they would say that the first speech they heard was the best one he made, no matter where it was or when it happened. he could make women cry and men stand on their feet. >> i assume there is no voice track for him. >> no -- would that there were. >> back to the two of you. where did you meet? >> we met in graduate school, auburn university. in our first class together, we did not necessarily hit it off right away. we began seeing each other when we were taking a graduate seminar on the american civil war. i tell people that and they say it is romantic.

>> what do you remember from those early days? >> we were carefree, young. we had the whole future ahead of us. i remember sitting in the library, and she was working there, and i went to the table where she was and sat down across from her. i made some sort of a dorky comment. she perfunctorily agreed with it and got up and left. >> i do not remember that. >> it was six months almost to the day that i asked her out after that. we went to pizza hut. >> still there? >> i guess so. >> you got all of your education at auburn? including your ph.d.? what was your ph.d.? >> history. >> i went to atlanta for my

bachelor's degree and went to auburn for graduate school. >> did you both go to salisbury state to teach? >> yes. >> how many years were you there? >> about nine. >> how do you divide something like a book? how you divide the responsibilities? >> we work solely, exclusively. we are solitary, as all writing is. it is not a kaufman-hart collaboration with somebody walking around the room waxing wise to a stenographer. we do not work on the same chapters at a time, but we hand them off to each other frequently.

>> how do you divide them? >> she wrote from the front, and i wrote from the back. we had to really treat some things at the end. meeting at the right place was a little difficult. >> i was reminded at the closing of this process about a remark by mark twain. he had done alternating chapters with another author. he said it was as the two miners had been tunneling through the mountains from opposite ends, and when they reached the middle, they were about 100 yards apart. he did not think the book worked because of that. we were not that bad, but it

was hard, because one of the things, as you know, in a narrative there are plot holes that developed that have to be straightened out sooner or later, and you have to go back and do it. tolkein writing "the lord of the rings," the story was that when he found a plot hole, he would throw everything away and that is why it took so long for him to write it. we did not have that much trouble. my trouble was killing him. i had a devil of the time with that. the chapter was much longer than it was here. my editor finally said, "you are going to have to let him go." >> why did you choose henry

clay, and when did you start the process? >> about three years ago, maybe a little more than that. we actually wanted to write a book on the election of 1824. we actually did have a proposal out through our agent, and a lot of people said, well, that is kind of narrow. it is a very pivotal election. then, our editor at random house suggested, well, why not clay? he is such a key figure in the that election. i said, i like henry clay. >> and that was that. >> when did you finish it?

>> march of 2009. >> who got to the middle first? >> i did. >> she is the one with the full-time job. >> i fall into the trap of perfection is the enemy of good. i tinker. >> what did you each find along the way that you did not know about henry clay? >> his family life. you never read about his family life. we are political historians, but we did not know anything about his family life. even other biographers did not write a great deal about his family. >> how did you find it? >> through a voluminous correspondence with the library of congress and others.

>> you said there is only one letter left from his wife? >> they had a very warm relationship. the children's letters to her and about her are very illuminating. the family correspondence is something no one had ever bothered to dip into. we finally had to call it quits. there are so many we would like to get back into. most of the family letters are in the library of congress. some are in a kentucky special collection as well. >> can you read them online? >> no, we had to come. >> physically, to kentucky. >> yes. we got to see the handwriting. we found a surviving letter from clay's mother to him.

it was not too long before she died in 1820. her handwriting was very similar to his. that was a clue that she was probably responsible for his beautiful handwriting. >> how many kids did she have? >> oh, goodness. she had a number who died as children. she had four children who survived to adulthood, one of them a daughter. that daughter died very young. she was in her 20's. then she had three other children -- four other children with her second husband. >> and your big find in this process? >> this family stuff was fascinating. it gives an element of clay's personality, features of it that had been missing. there was an idea that clay was an aloof figure.

very strange that that would be the case. we found him to be an extremely warm person, especially with his family. otherwise, the corrupt bargain charges, ultimately the investigation into that revealed him to be the victim of a smear campaign mounted by his enemies, jackson and his people. jackson lied about this. he said that james buchanan had acted as the go-between for clay and his camp. buchanan publicly said that he did not do this. it did not matter. >> would you rather have andrew jackson at your table or henry clay? >> henry clay.

he was a fun man at a party. >> he would stand for the drinks. >> what would you get if you had andrew jackson at your table? >> courtly, withdrawn and possibly sour person. very polite. chivalrous with women. anyone who ever met him -- actually, clay rather liked him until he became so vicious. after that speech, clay actually called on jackson to showed that it was not anything personal. it was like professional wrestling, going out and having a drink after the bout. he was somewhat surprised that jackson was so chilly and aloof. john quincy adams had the same impression. they were looking over a map and jackson exploded and went on in a raving rant about how

despicable a secretary of treasury was. adams was dumbfounded. he thought, this is a man who does not understand the game. >> again, henry clay ran for president five times. you really want to say, why did he not give it up? wasn't there a message there for a while? do you have any sense of why he did not give it up? he had been speaker of the house. he had been in the united states senate for a long time. >> well, he came very close in 1844. there is some evidence that he should have won that election. >> that was the polk election? >> yes.

new york state had a great deal of election fraud in that election. newly arrived immigrants voted as well as a large number of deceased people. if he had taken in new york he would have won the election. it was very close in new york. i think he thought that in 1848, the whigs had a very good chance. he was right, because the person who won the nomination won the election, zachary taylor. in the north, and generally speaking, people like abraham lincoln were whigs. when the party disintegrated, most of the northern whigs made their way into the republican party. >> henry clay was basically a politician until he died.

he ran for president five times. he was in the house four times, the senate four times. the one thing i kept reading was that he would be a friend of somebody, and then over jackson they would lose the friendship. one example i would like you to explain is john crittenden. >> this was a case of simple politics. your question, the question of why he did not just stop running for president, was essentially the one that crittenden finally asked.

he was a kentuckian, a protegee of clay's. probably at that point, clay's closest friend. he took clay's place in that the senate when clay resigned. he was almost a handpicked successor. he was the unofficial campaign manager in 1844. yçt:they were tireless friends. after 1844, clay said he was retired.

he decided to go live in kentucky. but you cannot put a guy like that out to pasture. so in 1848, his ears perked up. but crittenden had become very involved in the zachary taylor run. >> and they are both in the same party. >> taylor was a whig because he hated james polk. polk had tried to ruin his career because he saw him as a rival. he becomes a whig by default. he was a louisiana citizen.

when he came back in, he wanted to be president as a vindication. clay did not quite understand it. between a rock and a hard place on that. he had thrown in with taylor as a kentucky point man, but he kept that secret from clay. >> at the end of their lives, did they try to get back together? >> there are different accounts of this. the idea that they reconciled largely derives from someone who was with them in washington at

the national hotel. he had been summoned to bring clay home, because he was dying, and they knew it. but by the time they got there, it was too late. clay could not be moved. he was bedridden. crittendon went in in june. whether he was summoned or whether it was of his own coalition, we do not know. but thomas said after the meeting that henry said that his friend had done no wrong and the family should forgive him. james, the other son, disagreed. he had never wanted to reconcile. he found a letter that clay had written that was quite bitter. it was after the 1848 truth had come out.

he read it and thought, this serves no purpose, and he burned it. >> how important was the senate in his life? >> it was very important. i think i mentioned somewhere in there that the united states senate at the end of the 1950's appointed a committee to rank senators. they ranked clay as the number one senator in u.s. history. he was the best according to that body. >> that was the john f. kennedy committee. >> he was 57 when he was reelected and stayed until he was almost 65. >> he retired in 1842. he was there about 10 years.

he retired during the tyler administration, partly because he could not get anything done, but also to run for president. >> what were his biggest accomplishments? >> the compromise of 1850. he solved the nullification crisis and prevented jackson from invading south carolina. he went back to the senate at the end of 1849 and was the architect of the compromise of 1850. >> what was more powerful back then, the presidency or the congress? >> congress. >> why has it all changed? >> andrew jackson was the exception to the rule of executive passivity, which was the ideal. after the revolution, the notion of an active presidency was too monarchical.

congress was the voice of the people. henry clay believed that. so did most presidents. the exceptions to that were andrew jackson and james polk. it did not work out very well. the active executive tended to trammell overreach. >> does it still? >> i do not know. i think the founders had a vision for the country that was somewhat radically different than what has evolved, especially in the 21st century. henry clay also opposed the mexican war. he saw that as an enormously corrosive influence on government. it gave government a pile of money. it tended to make the executive much more aggressive.

there was almost always something irreversible. you never went quite back to where you were before. >> have you figured out any other people in history that you would write a book about? >> well, we are starting right now a book on the washington administration, the presidency of george washington. it is a much narrower focus, but perhaps one of the most influential eight years in the history of our presidents. that did not come out exactly from this project. i have said repeatedly, when we were at ashland just over the weekend, that i want to come back to henry clay, to take some other aspect of his life, particularly the election of 1824. >> the election of 1824 deserves

a thorough telling. >> there was a book about henry clay a number of years ago which was like the first book in 50 years. there have not been a lot since then. why not? when you go down the list of everything he did, speaker of the house, elected to the senate four times, ran for president five times, the treaty of ghent, secretary of state, why not? why not more? >> probably because he did not win the presidency. the historical trade has gone in more for the glamour of the presidency, which is another consequence of the growth of presidential prestige. presidents were in many ways glorified clerks in henry clay's time. they dispensed patronage. they gladhanded and toured the country as a symbol of unity. the real power was then in the house and the senate where policy was formed and appropriations were made.

the veto was very rarely used. president jackson was the exception. >> the compromise of 1850 is talked about so much and written about in the book, so i want to get to something else. sickness is another thing that is a thread in your book. it seems like, more than i have read before. who was sick, and what were they sick with? >> henry clay was never healthy, even as a young man. he always had respiratory problems and digestive problems. his wife tended to be healthier, although she went through some bad health problems as well, and of course, their children. again, respiratory. >> what was that? >> in henry clay's case, it was probably just a congenital problem. he always had a very bad cold

or bronchitis. he contracted tuberculosis which ultimately killed him. perhaps because of his respiratory problems he was more susceptible to that. it was a disease that was the number-one killer of adults during this time. >> when he died, he got the full treatment. he stayed in the capital, and the six white horses pulled the car. >> what we wanted to do in the prologue, because henry clay had retreated into the shadows of american memory so much, is we wanted to show in the prologue how important he was. we wanted to show, rather than to just say he was important. we thought the best way to do that was to take his funeral,

which was unprecedented. he lay in state in the capital. he went through a journey through new york to lake erie to lexington. hundreds of thousands, maybe a million people turned out in the course of that journey to pay tribute to him. the sense of loss that they had when he was gone. henry clay was, in the parlance of today, a rock star. he was the star player among a lot of stock players. >> is there anything you did not like about him? >> his inconsistency on the issue of slavery was one of the hardest things for us to come to grips with. he was opposed to slavery and yet he owned slaves. he never, until his death, took that final step to be an example to others.

>> what did you like best about him? >> i think it was his ability to leaven issues with humor. there is a lot of abraham lincoln foreshadowed in henry clay's speeches, in the way he used words. he had the feeling of a great event about to happen. it was what f. scott fitzgerald said of daisy buchanan. there was something about the face. there was a notion that exciting things have happened and exciting things were about to happen. >> david heidler, jeanne heidler, 29 years married, both ph.d., live in colorado springs. they have done at least 10 books.

thank you both for joining us. >> thank you for having us. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> for a dvd copy of this program, call 1-877-662-7726. for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q-and- a.org. "q&a" programs are also available as c-span podcasts. >> coming up next live, your calls and comments on "washington journal." also live, the memorial day service at arlington national cemetery with vice-president

joseph biden at 10:00 this morning. >> the treaty before you is an illusion -- is an evolution that goes back to the 1970's, particularly people. of --the period of start agreements. >> watch the moments that make history right now at the cspan video library. every program since 1987 available free online. this morning, we talk with the director for the strategic defense in iraq about whether the iraqi troops will be ready for the withdrawal of u.s. troops and then the president of the honor flight network discusses bringing world war two veterans to