information is very difficult and important this field. but the last administration and lots of members of congress and the civil liberties community concluded that, in fact, the intelligence capabilities were legally trained on that u.s. citizens. so the question, the oversight mechanisms. how to prevent that from happening again and whether or not you plan to undertake an initiative to look at the possibility of greater public transparency, given the necessity of national security secrecy in this field in order to help build the public confidence that you referred to. >> that is an easy question. i will turn it over to -- no. [laughter]

first, you made some statements that i don't agree 100% with. i will put it back to my words if i could. it illegal. compared with the constitutional article 1, 2, 3. i'm not a lawyer. i just admitted i learned to read. i'm not a lawyer. what are the roles of the three branches of government? . .

it is hard for me to jump backward. all three agree with hundreds turned it this is the right way. i think that is the most important step that we have. i think we are doing that. we are working to make sure it they know what we are doing and why we are doing it. then go forward with the court and say what we are trying to do. i think the american people should -- would be very pleased to note the way we are doing it. some may say, why is it taking so long? these are tough issues. we have a lot of lawyers in the

nation. all good people, i am sure. [laughter] we divided the room in half and but have on one side and have on the other, we could debate this issue until we go to sleep. the issue that i think we really face is the one that you were driving that -- that is where our country want to be. we want to protect the constitution. it is not something that we are going to throw out our civil liberties and privacy. we were built on that. that is how our country was built. we need to do our part. my responsibility is to make sure that what we do comports with law. every action we take we have legal read use of it all the way up and down. when you get back, there are a

lot of the law refuse to go into this. -- legal reasons to go into this. i think we are doing this right. it does not mean we will not make a mistake burd. we spend an awful lot of time to make sure we protect it and some liberties. i sleep good that night because of that. >> stock restarted the series -- at&t has helped us to underwrite it and support it. we started this series in september 2009 with the deputy secretary who is supposed to announce the cyber command. >> she did. >> we got the results sometime later. it is a tremendous speech. thanks you for taking of these questions. they were all difficult than

good. it thecodont join me in a round of applause. -- if you could all join me in a round of applause. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> in a few moments, jan brewer on your meeting today with president obama on immigration. in about five minutes, that alan's briefing on the oil spill.

then the legal aspects of the oil spill from an attorney involved in the exxon valdez oil spill. >> tomorrow, more about oil drilling technology with bob tippe. sara murphy will take calls on long-term unemployment. it begins live on c-span every day starting at 7:00 a.m. eastern. >> pulitzer prize winners on friday. general non-fiction winner on the final decade of the cold war.

it led to economic collapse in the great depression. ."iday on "book tv this weekend, noted feminist author and legal scholar martha: nussbaum has written or contributed to more than 20 books on liberal education, ethics, sexism and justice. jan brewer met with president obama at the white house to talk about your state's new law on immigration. afterward, she spoke with reporters for about five minutes. >> we just completed our

meeting. it is very cordial. it is taking place in arizona and discussing our borders and illegal immigration into the state and america. with that, i will take a couple of questions before we have to be. i and sorry? we agreed to try to work together. we know we will not agree on a certain issue. of the issues will be worked out. we are going to begin a more direct dialogue in a couple of weeks. people are coming out to arizona to brief it. where one to see how it will be distributed. it ensures that the majority of those resources will be coming to arizona.

we also determined the fact that we needed to be more court made it in our efforts and information so that we went the better able to correspond with one another. >> [inaudible] >> that is not determined. i was not privy to any explanation at that. i feel i have a responsibility to the people of arizona to take that specific information. i am encouraged that there will be much better dialogue between the federal government in the state of arizona. i hope that is not wishful thinking. i hope it is positive thinking. >> [inaudible] >> he indicated he was leaving that up to the department of

justice and did not want to discuss that in any kind of detail today. that was rushed over a little bit. >> do you the key understand what is in the law? >> tazewell learned man and a lawyer. what is this town like? >> very cordial. -- what was his tone like? >> very cordial. i explained to him what my conditions were when i follow that bill to the legislature. we are making sure that there was no racial profiling. i made it very clear. >> what did he tell you that he was afraid of? >> you is going to leave that up to his department. >> what you hope one month from

today to see in arizona with regard to the federal government? >> a legacy a construction the gun on the fence on the border. -- i would like to see the construction of the fence on the border to begin. i'll speak to my staff to give is the kind information that they have available. we are looking forward to that. today i am further ahead than i was yesterday. i have facts we get shared the people of arizona and america. we talked about a pathway may be too better immigration reform that he feels very strongly about. i indicated that we have been promised that information

previously. whenever secured the borders. i believe the people of america want the border security. >> date you commit to getting republican support? >> no. >> would you support immigration reform? >> i feel very confident about what we have done in the past. it was the right thing to do. i believe we air fare to the people of america. we need to secure our borders.+ >> did you discuss national guard? will they be deployed to arizona? >> we talked about that. we assume in two weeks we will know exactly how many will be deployed.

the numbers are not fixed . he thought the majority of the resources would be coming to arizona. i want the borders secure.

>> sara murphy will take your calls about long-term unemployment. we will be joined with susan carvin and violence against women. it is live on c-span every day starting at 7:00 a.m. eastern. >> a couple of live events to tell you about on our companion network c-span2. an arizona state university forum on education. here on c-span, attorney general eric holder is speaks at the 30th annual convention of the

american arab anti- discrimination committee. >> the new british prime minister and party leader david cameron to field questions from members of parliament in this first prime minister's questions at the head of the coalition of government. that sunday night at 9:00 on c- span. >> c-span, are content is available on television, radio, and online. you can also connect with us on twitter, facebook, and you too. -- youtube. >> a preeti now on the gulf of mexico oil spill with incident commander that allen. he spoke with reporters for about 30 minutes. >> he may begin your conference. good morning.

we just cut the riser pipe off of the package. they had to use the sheer cutters, which are the ones they did to use the other pipes yesterday. the other saw we are attempting to use was not successful, so we replaced it with the shares which do not have as clean a cut, but we do have a cut now. the next couple be to put the containment cap over what is left of the more riser pipe and start seeing if we can move gas and oil up the pipe to start syphoning off gas and start production later today. we will give you updates throughout the day. is significant step forward at this point. the challenge now is to seek that containment cap over it.

it is different between what we were trying to do with the smooth cut and what is happening now. we are going to put a very solid steel with a cap that will produce the amount of oil that could potentially leak around the connection. this isn't a regular cut. it will be more challenging to get the seal around. will have a containment device there to capture more oil than we would otherwise. we will have to see how effective it is. we will have the option to use undersea dispersal to deal with any oil that will not be captured. it will be kind of a test and adapt phase as we move ahead, but a significant step forward this morning. i am pleased to report that. a couple of updates on what i have been up to the last 24 hours and then i will answer questions. i spent time with the epa administrator. she has been in the area. we have gone in different directions to cover as much area as possible. she is from the local area. she has existing relationships with the community parishes. we have been working together. she has been closely following the disbursement issue. the epa has done a lot of water

testing and air quality testing associated with it. so far, they have found no impact on wildlife related to toxicity, but there will continue to do that. we will work closely with epa on this. we are committed to using as little disbursement as possible on the surface and to concentrate its subsea, where it is most effective, and to minimize the effect on the surface. we are approaching the 1 million gallon mark on that. we will continue to work with the closely as we move forward. we announced yesterday that we had approved the goals from the state of louisiana to add more segments on to the army corps of engineers.

there were approved by the army corps of engineers as illegitimate means to deal with the oil spill to keep oil from getting in -- as a legitimate means to deal with the oil spill to keep oil from getting in to the marshes of louisiana. i spoke with governor jindal and will continue to work with them moving forward. as you know, the upper edge of the perimeter of the spill -- as i have said before, this is a collection of spills, not one monolithic spill. it is approaching mississippi, alabama, and florida, with some reported on the islands. we have moved a large number of coast guard assets into the area. they have capability to do surveillance and also command and control. we hhve 250 coastguard skimmers with equipment on board the

boats. we have patrol boats working to support the vessel of opportunity vessels we have enrolled to help us scout for oil passages off shore and conduct skimming operations. will continue to focus on the mississippi/alabama at issue. we continue to move boom into alabama. we are looking to deal with the entrance to mobile bay. with that, i would be glad to take your questions. you always go first, so go ahead. >> talking about top hat, you obviously try capping before and it has not worked. how hard is it to put a containment cap over this pipe to stop the oil coming out, with the currents? >> prior to the cut, they extended the containment cap at the end of the riser cut.

that is suspended right over the area. it is not even moving it in. it is moving it down and seeking it. it is an inverted funnel that is wider than the pipe is going to cover. there is a rubber seal around it. i do not want to make two simple analogy, but it is not unlike the rubber seal inside a garden hose. you get that seal to fit as good as it can, understanding it is an regular cut. there will be doing that in the next couple of hours. >> what is the latest on the underwater crews and the dispersal of what is going on under water? how many skimmers are on the coastline? >> we have skimmer's all over. there are some in alabama, mississippi, louisiana. tony russ will give you the exact number when your done today.

go back to the first question. i am sorry. we had extensive discussion in our briefing yesterday that no administrator -- she is meeting with research vessels and talking to them. we have had reports from research vessels from universities that have found what they believe to be plumes' under the water. we are in the process of taking samples and try to figure out what they are. they are denser than the water but we are not sure whether it is oil or not. the use of the subsea dispersants could have that oil gather below surface. we are checking the oil as it goes up the water column after dispersants have been applied. dispersants' generally make the oil separate. it would gather in a plume undersea. we do not know if there is a causality between the dispersants and the plumage been reported. there are zero ships at

different water depths taking samples try to understand what concentration is at what debt. will put together a data map and a model of what is going on out there. we have some progress out there. we just have not finished the work. >> bp is running ads and promising they are making this right. given that all they have done has failed, how much confidence do you have that we will get it right? >> their assertion and their duty to stand by it -- i have not seen the advertisements yet. i am not sure. we need to separate a couple of things out. our applications of technology to cap this well or contain the flow -- using technologies that normally work in oil spill response orwell containment but have never been tried at 5,000 feet. we are doing things where there is no human access that are legitimate ways to respond to these problems. a lot of times they're going to

be adaptations and evolution. that is what is courage to happen here. they have the duty. they are the responsible party. we have a duty to oversee them and we are doing that very aggressively. >> [inaudible] >> based on what they know, they are going to be drilling through. they anticipate it will be harder to drill through rock and other sediments. we are getting a daily update on that. they are slightly ahead of schedule right now. we stopped -- it is mid august for the first well. regarding the deep driller 2 that was taken off station, one that was being deployed and we thought there was an opportunity to cap the well, when the one option was to put a blowout preventer over the one that is on there. they deployed one. they went out and started a relief well. when they started the top kill option, they thought they might be able to stop the well with mud, to put a plug in. there were going to put another emitter on top of it. they stopped drilling operations for that time to deploy if that was needed. it was not. they went back and resume drilling. they are still on schedule to complete their portion of the drilling.

>> someone believes from previous attempts from plugging the well -- >> i do not know if we know exactly why the diamond saw failed. the conjecture is that it encountered the drill pipe inside the riser pipe. anybody who has tried to saw a

limb of a tree -- if you are not holding onto a you have pressure back against you. you are pushing it away. it is wobbling around. the pipe was not stationary enough to put pressure against it for the saw to be effective. they tried it for several hours and said it was not going to be successful and went to the second option. >> the containment efforts that were [inaudible] was there seawater being [inaudible] with the fitting cap you have to put on the well -- >> i call it looser fitting but it is still fairly tight. there is a problem with oil interacting with seawater. at that temperature and pressure, the natural gas that is coming up interacts to form hydrates. that caused the first

containment device to get buoyant and float away. as they built these new containment caps, and they have several on the seafloor, they're going to put ports in the top where they can put methanol in to deal with the hydrate problem. there will also put in hoses to inject methanol to deal with dehydrate problem. >> some people say the fema people think there is a threat of lightning strikes. what does that tell you? >> we have to stop when we have enough lightning. the weather does not always allow us to operate in small boats safely. we have made floating hotels closer to the marshy area. we are always going to have to deal with weather. that is a huge factor in in-situ burning or mechanical skimming. sometimes the sea state will not allow it.

we are in hurricane season. until the relief well is done and the well is capped, we are going to be at some risk of exposure to heavier whether, even not a hurricane, that could force us to stop certain operations. we are working with british petroleum on a series of alternatives that might make the operation more survivable in heavier weather, including bringing in larger platforms for the production of the oil that is brought up to the containment devices that could stay on station in longer and heavier weather. we need to face the possibility that a certain storm condition would force us to stop the containment recovery operation and get those resources off for safety purposes. at that point we are going to have oil being discharged. they are looking at systems where they can mitigate that, although vessels are not on station.

we have to manage day-to-day. there is no guarantee, moving forward. >> british petroleum said last week that it was reviewing 11 alternatives to correct this. has that been completed? [inaudible] what is the epa sanctioned to use? what is the result of the discussion between bp and the government, and what will they allowed? [inaudible] >> the correction is allowed by the schedule and underuse by epa. we have had bp provide information to epa on alternatives to the dispersant. they're looking at the supply logistics if we were to move to another dispersant, if there was enough out there to be able to be used for what we need to do out there.

this is not a closed issue. it is a very tough issue. this material is available to us now. it is effective. the thing we are most concerned about is the total amount of dispersants that have been deployee to date and the impact of subsea dispersants at that debt in the water column, which we do not have a lot of information about. right now, a legitimate alternative has not surfaced. the epa continues to talk to us about it, but that is where we are at right now. let me take one more. >> once the pipe was sheared off, there might be an increase in flow of oil. have you seen those numbers? >> we will put information out later today. as i was walking in i got the word that the pipe was cut. we have video down there. i will try to give you video on that. the board from the geological survey was and estimates -- was an estimate that it was suppressing some of the flow. it could be up to 20% more.

will have to get some empirical evidence now we have the pipe cut off. at our request, british petroleum has done a couple of things which i think demonstrate good faith. the first is the number of video feeds being made available. they are offering to technical briefs a day on the operations going on, not only subsea but with the clean-up operations. we are ready for questions. >> the first question comes from baltimore. >> i am with reuters. i have two questions. first of all, on the terminology, admiral allen, you called this a top hat. it is not the same top hat bp

was going to use in may, a smaller version of that copper daily. this is a smaller contingent cap that has a seal on it. second of all, but this ongoing operation and the lowering of the cap and the jagged part of the pipe, will you give us an update later today when and if that takes place? >> we will. we will absolutely do that. it is a little confusing because the very first containment system they developed which was unsuccessful was followed by the development of about five others that vary in their capacity related to how wide they are, what kind of seals they have on them, and what manifolds are set up. they could kill the show clients that are on the lower marine riser package. they could kill the choke lines that are on the lower marine

riser package. the sale allows it to go over a riser pipe. that pipe is not exactly vertical now. it is 10 degrees and gold over. the rubber seal will fit on that even though it is not going to be a perpendicular fit. they have a couple others stored on the sea floor so they have other options. given the cut they have right now, this is the best containment cap to be used. it is not like the one that was used earlier. >> thank you. >> the next question comes from susan baker. >> i am with dow jones. the diamond-year cut did not work. -- the diamond shear cut did not work.

will this make this bill worse in the short term? >> it will not. there are two issues. no matter what type of cut we would have made, there was a potential in the minds of our technical flow rate team that we could increase the number of hydrocarbons coming out about 20%. that was an estimate based on the idea that the tank was holding back some oil that could be released. that is one issue. the other issue is once any containment cap is on this is not a perfect seal. there is a chance some oil could escape. in a perfect world we want an absolute steal where you put to pipes together with flanges and built it. -- you put two pipes together with flanges and bolt it. there is a chance the oil going up the pipe will be more than they can tolerate at a time and it will spell out from under the seals. we will treat that with subsea dispersants. the amount of oil that will get through is something will have to determine as they get the best they can. next question.

>> your line is open. >> i think that might be me. i am from ast. you mentioned subsea dispersants. i have been reading on the epa website that they have not been tested and we have no idea what sort of effect they're going to have on the environment. dispersants, i believe, cause the oil to sink, yet we are denying -- or bp is denying they are under water. if somebody could address that. >> let me clarify first of all -- when we talk about subsea dispersants, we are talking about the same dispersants being used on the surface being used at 5,000 feet for the first time.

we do not know what the effects are of using them on the oil coming up the water column and the effect of dispersants at that depth. it is the same dispersants we use on the surface. dispersants' do not cause the will to sink. because the oil to break into smaller pieces that biodegrade more quickly. -- they cause the oil to break into smaller pieces that biodegrade more quickly. we do not understand what the fate is of the oil as it approaches the surface. that is what the current water testing is going to be able to tell us. next question. >> admiral allen, i would like to know if you have any comments on the situation as far as the conversation you had last night, thoughts on the severity of the crisis. >> i am not familiar with the -- i will get my press officer to get back to you.

i am not familiar with the report you refer to. >> our next question comes from brad johnson. >> thank you for taking this question. my question is -- you said a while ago and you have kind of rephrased as talking about your responsibility to oversee this, but the president has said that it is in bp's interest to misinform the government about things that could affect its bottom line.

what specific steps have you taken to prevent bp from misinforming you, the incident commander? >> the word trust comes out a lot. when we have a frank and honest discussion about this. there are a lot of ways to define trust. when i have a discussion with anybody, including tony hayward, my expectation is they will do what i asked. if they comply with my request and continue to do that and are responsive, i do not know how you characterize that. if it is trust or partnership, whenever it is, there is a need to move forward addressing problems for the american people. the request we made to british petroleum for live video feeds, for technical briefings, for hydrocarbon management plans, for dispersal plans -- every time i have asked the have been

given to me. there are issues from time to time with logistical coordination with cleanup. attended the issues of how coordinate and how we work together out there and create a unity of effort. i do not know how to state it more clearly than the fact that when i deal frankly and openly with mr. hayward and make a request i get an action. last question. >> this comes from jessica resnick. >> i am with "bloomberg news" and had a few questions. the oil that could push out from the rubber seals that you described earlier -- i am curious how much oil you think will be leaking out. i understand it is preliminary. what are the scientists seeing. we knew for example that cutting into the riser pipe

could cause a 20% increase in flow. what kind of percentage increase do you see from this? what the sea not been trapped in this cap? >> the content cap is going to capture the oil being brought up to the well bore from the reservoir below. the pressure in the reservoir is around 9000 psi. the pressure readings taken just before the top kill operation began last week indicated that the pressure at the blowout preventer was around 3500 psi. that is the pressure of the zero oil coming up to the well bore, counterbalanced by the hydrostatic pressure of the water at 5,000 feet. there is pressure for the oil to rise up to the top. the natural gas flares off. will the pressure of the oil going up into a much smaller pipe -- the price we are looking at are smaller than the

well bore themselves. if they fill up and more pressure is created there, will enough pressure forced the oil around the sides and back down out of the seal? the answer is i do not think we know until we know how the containment cap is seated and how well the rubber seals have done their job and have some video that tells us how much oil, if any, is coming out. there could be close to none. there could be some. we will not know until we see how the sale fits with the more jagged cut out there than what we anticipated. will have to wait and see the video. we will talk frankly and openly about it when we know. thank you. >> i said, this president is going to be impeached. woodward said, we can never use

the word "impeachment" of around the newsroom at lest anyone think we have an agenda. the are of the moment thethe awe of the moment. c what other players have said about it. >> we have three new c-span books for you. each has the need contemporary perspective and something new about lincoln, the nation's highest court and the lives of america's president. to order, go to c-span.org /books. also a great idea for faubus did. >> more about the illegal aspects of the oil spill.

he was an attorney for fishermen affected by the exxon valdez oil spill in 1989. this is about 40 minutes. screen is a gentleman by the name of brian o'neal. he is someone who has spent 21 years of his professional life as an attorney representing 32,000 alaskan fisherman and natives in their quest for damages and repneumonia ration from the exxon valdez oil spill what lessons can we learn from that experience to apply to what's happening in the gulf today? >> well,he first thing you learn is that if you're going to extract and transport oil, there's going to be catastrophic spills, and that's because people are in crge o the extraction and transportation of oil. the second thing is where the oil goes, nobody knows.

in the case of the valdez, everybody thought the oil would go southeast, and it goes northwest. and it went a tremendous distance, a distance of about the legth of theewest coast of the united states. so where the oil goes, you don't know. what it does, you don't know. its impact on different kinds of beaches, its impact on marsh lands and different creatures are all unknown. for example, in alaska. in alaska oil impacted fishing seasons for about three years, but five or six or seven years after the spll it became a narnte oil had decimated, forever, a herring in prince william's sound. so the impact of oil on creatures and ecosystem sincere a big unknown. its pact on businesses. on fisherman businesses and

hotel businesses is an unknown. you don't know howong the oil is going to last or what its impact is going to be on your business. in order to figure that out, you need to wait a number of because the impacts of an oil spill are odd. and it also has odd impacts on communities. if a community is a resource-based community, fishing is a good example, and there is a man-made disaster, like, bp or like exxon. people take it very hard, and they tend not to get over the dister unt they get their full measure of justice. so you see, in coastal commuents in alaska that were subject to the spill, the creased rates of alcoholism, depression. divorce, bankruptcy. tax problems.

and even 21 yearsfter the spill today, if you were to go into a coffee shop or a bar in an outstate town in south central alaska, it's as if the spill happened yesterday. so the intacts are widespread. you can't tell what they are going to be now. and you can't even tell where the oil is going to go now. host: as we get started here, we want to remind miami we have statistics from television in anchorage to remind us of the size and zope estimated 10.8 million gallons spilled covering 11,000 square piles, and an estimate of the number of animals killed by tt spill include 250,000 to half a milln sea birds, 1,000 otters, 300 harbor seals, 250 balanced eaglls, billions of samen and herri eggs and 22

orca whales. let's move to the traject roy of the legal history, because it helped stet stage about what might proceed here and how what happens here might effect it. the spill was in 1989 i prince williams' sound and by 1981 -- 1991 they had settled claims. five years later, civil case baker versus exxon an alaska jury awarded $5 billion to 3 the,000 fishermen. december, two a u.s. appeals court reduced those damages to $4 billion, exxon appeals and the court raises it to $4. 5. damages cut to $2.5 billion and june of 2008 the united states squort got involved ruleing the civil damages would be limitte $507 million. let's start with that final

figure of the supreme court ruling. what did that mean for t 32,000 defendants and the plaintiffs in the case. how much did they get in the end? >> the total amount that t plaintiffs got was about $1.3 billion. that included $500 million worth of interest. because it took them 21 years to wa this war against the exxon corporation. and it was aong and costly war. we spent over $200 million in time and $30 million in cash. over 2 is years and i think exxon probably spent north of $100 million litigateing the matter. the conclusions i come away with are if you litige with a big oil company, they can spend enough money to make you bleed through the years. and the second conclusion is justice is a long ways away. we've lost upwards of 20% of

our clients. they are dead. and many others lives are in dis array, and this money would have helped to put th back in play. and the money would have provided them with a sense of justice. host: we can understand where exxon would have that had money to defend itself. whe did you get the money to prosecute the case? >> the lawyers takeover years -- the lawyers, over t years, contributed with the hopes that in the end we would win. so for 21 years we were living on our credit cards. host: a would you do it again? guest: it's disruptive to you life. it's disruptive to your professional life. it's very narrowing to work on one matter for 21 years. but you're going to law school place, and this was my one chance to make the world a

better place. so my answer to your question is, yes. host: with the arrival of the attorn general on the scene this week, anticipating of course, bp's parts that there will be all sos of damages uth, perhaps even criminal ones, what are you observing to -- observing bp to do to position themselves for crimin charges? >> i don't think they are doing no such positi themselves. they make contributery statements and qualified statements. by qualified statements i mean you say, well, we'll pay all legitimate claims. think think you just say we'll knows it's legitimate claims. i think bp is not in as much trouble as people think it is for a couple of reasons. the firsis even though attorney general and the state attorney generals are saying we're gng to prosecute or

taket the prosecution of bp and sue it for natural resources. we saw it in alaska and it took two years for exxon to come to a cheap and me to negotiateuated government. the government doesn't have the ability to fight it and i don't think the government does. and there's a stra t.j. i can element to -- i'm not sure anyone would want to do anything to disrupt bp no matter what bp did. and the third thing is unless a business man actually steals money from people, there's always been a reluctantens in the court system and by precuters to put a white businessman in auit in jail. so the criminal stuff, i don't know wheee is going to go. the civil stuff, that is

fisherman around hotel owners and stes suing bp for damage sincere in all likelihood going to be another 20-year nucar war, and i thi people ought to get used to that thought and hunker down. >> whenal all the dust settled how much money went into the mockets of a individual fisherman in the case of 21 years waiting. an estimate? >> if you owned your own boit and permit about $60,000 $65,000. if you were a deck hand on a boat, $10,000, $8,000. host: and do you have a reaction to that abard? -- to that award. to tha award? guest: i was shocked when the supreme court took the punitive damage away in 2008. and so were my clients, and the amount of money my clients got

was not enough to make them whole annot enough to give em think sense again that jits was done. host: well, folks, you have heard brian o'neal and heard the top line of his 21-year legal saga being involved, on bhaffs of many of tens of thousands of the exxon valdez spill, we would like to hear your questions or comments as it relate totts gulf of mexico oil spill. very anxious to hear your questions or comments on lessons learned and iyou'd like more detail about what happened in the exxon valdez legal prosecution. let's begin with a telephone call from texas. this is rick on the democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning to you.

host: yes, sir, your questions or comments? caller: one comment is i grew up in southeast, louisiana. for then you have what they call bumushes which isn't really moss buta they call kane. and there's actually no actual bottom. and that will never be clean. there'so way -- that was one of the biggest places, bass, and everything grow. and i'm going to give you an example of the oil companies. i grew up in an area of venezuela called the wagon wheel held up by texaco started in 1955, the year i was born. and that area has en destroyed. there are pits every where. where they lost tngs and they tried to sue them i'm guessing

in the color to -- and you can go out there today and can't even catch the fish because they have sores and you can't eat them because they aually taste like oil, so if anybody thinks big oil is going to do anything about this, they are totally out of their mind. ank you. host: your reaction to the long-term effects of oil spills. guest: well, i agree with what he said and he captud an awful lot of the truth. on all of these on the mississippi dealta. i've heard 25% to 50% of all the wetlands in the united states are going to be devastating. it's going to have impact on things we have no idea relies on the mississippi delta. and you can't clean oil up there. once it gets in there. it kills what's there, and the

world's the less for it. host: lakewood, california, danny,ndependent line. caller: thank god for c-span. i love c-span. now i was wondering what environmental laws can actually be enforced right now mple? and like in instances of in-- like in imminent domain, can the government jus come in and take over bp's operation and profit and take full control just to get thing done? thank you. guest: there are two questions. the first is what environmental ds come into play? bp can be prosecuted under the refuse act passed in 1989 which prohibits putting things in the water. the clean watt err act passed in 1972 and the migratory bird treaty act. but again, i don't think those are going to have much impact

on b.p. at all. because i think the government will settle them out cheaply. the state governments may have similar laws but i don't think the state got to thes have the resources to fight with bp. the second part of the question was can the government take over bp right now and essentially attempt to stop the continuing spewing of oil from the botom of the snoge i don't think they can take over bp. ethink they can federalize the response to the spill completely if they want to and go in and try stop it themselves, but the problem is the government doesn't know how to stop an i'll spill, andp doesn't know h to stop an oil spill either, which is kind of interesting, because we made deal with bp and ewith made a deal with champion that you can come in and take t people's oil.

that oil doesn't belong to bp. it's in the gund. the deal is you can come in and takehe people's oil and make so much money that the wealth is incredible. but in the return, you provide it to us and in a safe manner and a manner in which if you hurt people, you pay them for their hurt. they didn't go it in a saf manner, and i >> next telephone call is from irving kentucky. good morning, gary. you're on the air. caller: yes. thanks for having me on, and i've always been a big c-span fan. i would like to ask mr. o'neal the whole thing about the drilling, like, this far down, it seems to me the whole thing is, like, premeditated to a sense that they had no plan

when all this -- when the oil started to flow, to clean this mess. it started with the compensation and two, mr. o'neal, what's the military ing about this or are they doing anything at automatic? -- at all? host: can you help the caller? guest: yes. i have a couple of observations. first is the caller makes a very good point. an engineer how can figure out how to go down a mile der the ocean and extract oil. but that's a huge tech in a logical challenge. but they figured out how to extract which is the second part of the cllenge, they

never really addressed, because too things a mile down into the water requires technology thatpparently we don't have. you wouldhink if they were going to do that, they would have wait ad couple more years until they were able to tpwhilled enoughedunden as i into the built mechasms so that we would be safe. partf the reason is our fault. and that is the demand for oil so he that commanies are willing to go out and take chances with our safety in order to feed our appetite for oil. but the it's their fault, because they shouldn't be doing it unless they know how to shut itff. so that's the first part of the caller's comment. the military is involved in so far as the coast gard is volved. and i've always been of the view, and i'm especially of the vy now that the coast guard is too cozy with the industry. you e press conferences and

you think about what you've seen in the last couple of weeks is they are like brothers in arms together in this ting thing. the regulatory arm of the government, the m.m.f., the coast guard, those who were supposed to ensure our safety were asleep at the wheel. but they are always aeep at e wheel. end of comment. host: ally, without necessarily a comment, in the financial times this morning there was among its my stories among aspects of the oil spill there was this one written, just wanted to share it with the you had a yeps, oil major is now forced to tack al public rellings disaster and here's what it says. on tupes evening, the executive was having dinner in a new orleans restaurant with thad allen when they were interrupted by james carval.

the legendary democrat and never having been introduced, mr. hayward and carval spent the next 20 minutes symptoms sometimes heatedly agreing to disagree about the nature of the operation to contain the disaster threatening to ruin the latter's native louisiana and two the two then agreed to meet again in the same reaurant this time next year, it was terse but poll light to mr. carval and gave my skept criticism to what he was promising. goich i started off talking tenant uncertainties of oil ills. there is a certainty to an oil spill, though in that once the oil is spilled, you really can't clean it up. exxon spent $2 billion. in its cleanup activities and cleaned up anywhere between 8%

and 12% of the oil itpilled which i find an astounding procedure. but they had the advantage of rock beaches and the advantages of a relatively contained area in prince william sound, although the oil eventually escaped and goes all the way to the aska peninsula. here the mess is bigger. it's more oil. it's the gulf of mexico, which is a huge body of water. and you don't have the luxury of stone-covered beaches. sortf shell-covered beaches. it's going to be in swamps. it's going to be in all kinds of marsh lands and wetlands and on sandy beaches and you can't pick it up with skimmers. effectively you can't boom it all off. the only real interesting proposal i've seen th with regards of save these wetlands is the state of louisiana to build these sand -- out out of

promise. but history teaches us once the oil is spilled, you're not picking it up. host: remember canneine you're on for brian o'neal. caller: hello? hi. i read something the other day, jay pepper asked o'bama at some press conference that there was some 17 countries that offered to help with the cleanup and o'bama only accepted mexics help and norwa -- other countries had started to help with backings, why would we not accept any help to start cleaning this up? or is it even possible to start vacuuming up some oil before it keeps spreading any further? guest: well, a couple of

comments. first of all, you can't just go out there and vacuum up the oil. some of it is under water. some of it is in a high-energy environment. and it covers such a huge area, that it's sort of like throwing a dart at the side of a football stadium. so that's the first problem. but you do need to try. and if i was in charge, i would accept all the help i could get. but again, i find the prospect bheak. once -- bleak. once it's spilled, it's spilled. ht: you thought there was too cozy a relationship between the oil companies and it's been read about military corruption. slain explain the law. do americans have any recourse against agencies enjoined with

protecting them where there might be corruption or mismanagement? >> the answer to the question is no. as a general proposition, the agencies are charged by law and their answerible to the president, and they are not in any legal sense, answerable to us. host: good morning. rocket -- given exxon vals was essentially not held accountible f anything, and bp's mess will be more of the same, and the magnitude of these environmental crimes, wouldn't history suggest an armed overthrow of some of these corporations and let their aountability with government will --

guest: think of obsvation on the commencht. and that is in the valdes case where the supreme court comes in at the end anddbasically bails out exxon, it causes ordinary folk, fishermen, me, native alambingens, to lose their faith in the -- alaskans to lose their faith in the justice system of america. so the tracks from the goodwill that our governmental institutions have, it takes away from their legitimacy when the courtystem comes in and bails out a big player. an exxon or a bp. and that is not healthy for america. host: what was the pvailing argument with the majority of

baker versus exxon? guest: the prevailing argument was that the award was just too big. host: on what ground? guest: that it was just too big. host:hat constant constitute it is grounds for tha guest: well it said in big oil spills the ratio is going to be one-to-one for compensatories against punitive, but that i go nors 250 years of anglo sacksen injuries prunes. you know there's a court you find in the bible and english common law and they come to america. they are part of the law at the time of the revolution. and they have been with us in all other aspects of the common law since the signing of the republic. it is the first time anyone's

ever -- and the justification, if you'll read the opinion, the justification essentially is we think it's too big. and we're making it up as we go. host: let me tell you a little bit more about brian o'neal, in addition to his long legal career, he served from 1969 to 1979 in the u.s. army obtaining the rank of captain and then served as the stapt to the general council to the department of the army. he's joingtous talk about about his work of 21 years and representing plaintiff -- as the gulf gusher continues. next is lions, illinois. this is a call from al on our democrats' line. caller: thank you. it's a beautiful day. .

guest: it was split along political lines the same way that g ore v bush was split along political lines. host: next call, robert, a republic line. caller: good morning. how is everybody this morning? i had two issues, but i want to comment on the previous comment. with respect to the two -- the

three truitt centrists, i uld be interested to know who he considers the three centrist but the court is not split between centrists and rightists. it is spt between rightists and progrsives, and want centrist -- one centers to seems toogo one way or the other. with respect to the oil ibill kampai -- the oil skill, on the issue that is central as compensation for the losses, creating the losses, is not the federal government bearing a certain amount of cpability as well, since they had in place a plan to print the oil and they had no boots available -- burn the oil and they had no boons

available. it is not best for the environment, b it is better than the dispersants. with respect to the government takeover of the indtry, how can they do that under the constitution? can you talk about of the rising to federal government as opposed to the state government -- authorizing the federal government as opposed to the state government to do anything? we don't need more government jobs. we need less gernment jobs and more in the private sector. we taxpayers are furnishing al this money for nothing to the banking industry's who are not doing their job, just as the fed or government is not doing their job at the borders -- just as the federal government is not doing their job at the borders. host: we are moving beyond the oil spill. burning the oil? guest: you cannot burn that much oil.

booms -- there are not enough in the world for a spill this size. with regard to the split on the supreme court, it is very interesting. the caller made an interesting point. however, in this case, roberts and scalia and the conservatives were the ones who changed the law. they were the judicial activists who came in and changed to water to a year's worth of anglo-saxon law to bail out an oil, -- changed 250 years worth of anglo-saxon law to bailout and oil company. federalizing thepill does not mean federalizing bp. it means pushing bpside and going in and tryingo fix the problems. the issue there, though, is that the government has no expertise at all with regard to stoing this rupture on the skin of the

planet, and it appears bp doesn't either. host: would you hope to be involved in any ligation against bp? guest: i don't know whether i'm going to be involved yet. it would depend on who asks me and what the scope of the deployment is. having spent 21 years representing fishermen and natives, i might find it to harbor to getack into that business. with regard to -- might find it to heartbreaking to get back into that business. with regard to a state or federal agency, i might be interested. host: would do it expanded why you might find it too hard braking? -- would you expand on why you might find it too hard braking? guest: the fishing business is not like a guy sitting on the end of the dock.

the entire family often works in the business,nd friends work in the business. when you undertake a representation, you are assuming responsibility for fixing their problems. a lot of lawyers say you are not, but you are. for 21 years, we work on it, and my friends and i worked on this thing, and we tried the case for half a year, we go to the appeals court time after time after time, only to have it snatched away by the political supreme court. you go back t the clients and say, "i'm sorry, i did not fix your pblem, i did not bring you the justice that i ought i could bring you." that is one aspect of it. now, the other aspect -- host: bill ahead, please.

guest: it is hard to work on one thing r 21 years. host: just for your own professional concentration and development. guest: yes, it is. how would you like to cover one story for 21 years? it would drive you nuts. host: with the cyclical nature of washington, we do come back to things regularly. it is interesting. our next caller for brian o'neill, who is with us for 21 minutes. caller: there is no reason why folks in our government who were criminally negligent, who knew what they were doing, should not be in prison. in fact, they should be awaiting trial. i might also add that members of congress were being lobbied by big oil to make sure that there

was not a relief well built at the same time. in canada, when they build one of these wells, they have to build a relief well at the same time. the congress people knew very well what is happening, and if ere is any monetary ties, they should be held civilly responsible. what finally might solve this is the horrible prospect of this oil drifting to south and central america andhem is suing us because we owned the leases, we are the landlords. if they could sue us,hat might put an end to this. these folks should be in priso right now and not just fixing attention to go to prison -- not just fixing henchmen to go to prison. guest: i agree with the sentiment of everything the caller said. i don't see anybody going to jail, because it is just the nature of things that they want.

they should, but they won't. the oil is going to impact other countries. it is going to hit cuba, hit mexico, the east coast of florida, and there will be lawsuits. how the loss of mico and cuba will be resolved under international -- the lawsuits of mexico and cuba will be resolved under international law is going to have some impact on bp, but our enough to weahere dependence on oil is impacted in any way. exxon and bp have a special relationship with all the governments of the world because they provide oil and oil runs the world. host: the caller mentioned canada. "the globe and mail," which calls itself canada's nacional

newspaper, as a story on offshore drilling. drilling will continue off newfoundland at record that spirit as the bp disaster grows, canada's -- at record depths. as the disaster grows, canada's oil drilling faces scrutiny. independent line. good morning, caller. are you there? caller: yes, i am. it has taken this fine gentleman 21 years to figure out roof of what we all knew -- proof of what we all knew would be the sult of the major oil spill. the damage caused by it will never be redressed. we will live with it forever. two, there will be no justice served by this fascist

government of ours. our only salvation right now is to stop the spill. this still could be stopped and it could be stopped by our military. it is a nine-inch diameter hole in it solid rocket that hole could be included -- nine-inch- diameter hole in solid bed rock. that hole to be imploded and plucked. they areaiting to bring in another rig 15,000 feeds into bedrock so that they can cap the well at the bottom of the dead rock. the military is our only hope. if this country ever needed a military coup right now, and now is the time for its. the people would back them up. they need to take back his

fascist government and turned this country back to the people. host: any comments for that caller? guest: yes, i do have a comment, and it is that it did not take me 21 years to learn that the court system would not provide justice. i thought it would when i started, i thought it would when went to law school, when i graduated from law school, when i started this in 1989. i thoug in the end that the court system would give alaskans the full measure of justice, and it did not. with regard tohe military and its ability, i just don't know. ho: final call is from san diego. republican line. caller: mr. o'neill, thank you for your service. well, the caller basically took my question.

can the military plug the hole? i heard a couple of days into this that the military had the possibility of imploding it and capping it, and that bp would not have the opportunity to rein drill, and they would lose billions of dollars. you can see from the appearance of the ceo that it just goes to prove -- the ignorance of the ceo that it just goes to prove that this was just about money. they did not allow any outside, independent contractors in, because they wanted to save the well. do you think this will back up to be be? -- do younk this will bankpt bp? i heard they went back over $1 a share yesterday. how is that? guest: two good questions. i don't think it will bankrupt bp.

bp, in an average year, their net profits would be $5 billion or $6 billion a year. the other thing you have tt remember is how oil companies report their profits is different. they make an awful lot of money countries and in the united states they get oil depletion allowances. i don't think it is going to bankrupt them. i don't think the federal government, unfortunately, would allow it to back up to them, because they provide oil, and oil bonds our universe -- oil runs out universe. the second question -- i have forgotten the second questn. host: it was related to how their stock at gone up yesterday. guest: in 1994, when we started the exxon vaadez trial, the

exxon stock was down. on september 16 of 1994, when we got a $5 billion verdict against exxon, the stock went up, and the stock has gone up since then, because $5 billion, despite what the supreme court says, was nothing to exxon. the stock is not arett consistently since then. i should have bought -- the stock has gone up etty consistently since then. i should of bought stock that day othe trial. i cannot bring myself to do it. host: did you change your consumption habits? guest: yes. i used to be a guy with a lot of cylinders, and i don't anymore. i think the only long-term resolution of this problem is tucked cut down on -- is to cut down on our energy consumption. wean all do that. host: brian o'neill has been

joining us from minneapolis this morning. sharia talking about his role as the lead attorney -- we have been talking about h role as lead attorney in the case of

.

>> over the last decade, certainly those of us who were working organized crime cases were aware that things were that groups were becoming much more international. cases were becoming more difficult to work. we had to pull it together. about 2 1/2 years ago the department decided to take a hard look at organized crime. we wanted to see the boundaries of the problem and what constitutes organized crime these days a week did attack it aggressively. we took a hard look and consulted with the law enforcement agencies and

executives in washington. we tried to generate a threat assessment on organized crime as it exists today. what we found was pretty alarming. we found that organized crime groups emanating from any country in the world had grown in size and power over the last 10 to 15 years. the organization of these groups -- we still think in terms of extortion and loansharking -- had just exploded. they are involved in any time -- kind of crime you could a imagine. that is one of the things that has recently been underscored by a national intelligence estimate prepared by the intelligence committee -- community. that

piracy that helps flooding with inferior products. organized crime is likely to threaten industries that rely on interest -- intellectual property such as fashion, pharmaceuticals, entertainment, and publishing. the director of national intelligence recognizes this kind of crime we are talking about today as more of a criminal problem. it is a national security problem. we began to see this a couple of years ago. we also took a look at the world of cyber crime. found that cyber crime is becoming increasingly organized and is a tool of organized criminals who

could operate fraud networks. they could do this worldwide with the click of a mouse. we also found that organized penetrated markets all over the states. they are attempting to dominate manipulate these markets. organized crime groups -- their activities include public corruption and violence around the world. and they are virtually immune to any law enforcement actions. what we figured at that point was to our survey of organized crime and what was being done about it, the federal government's response was definitely lacking. there were some responses, but they were scattered. there was no concerted effort to try to beat this problem. we did several things. we pulled together something called the attorney general's

organized crime council to try to pull together all of the heads of law enforcement bodies. that includes ice, the fbi, the atf, the internal revenue service, the postal inspection service, the state department, and the inspector general's office. we pulled these folks together and ask them to consider the threats that we had uncovered and try to come up with a strategic response that would focus law enforcement efforts on these problems. we issued the strategy that resulted from that in 2008. it emphasized several different areas that law enforcement had to improve its performance in if we were to address these areas affectively. one of them -- without going to all of them -- one of the important ones was to try to bring together the intelllgence

that existed concerning organized crime activities into one centralized location so that the federal government and law enforcement could cross- indexed that information and come up with a more effective response. in following up on that recommendation, which created the international organized crime intelligence and operations center. it was started last year. the cross -- it costs indexed law enforcement and government information all in one place to try to identify these groups, target their ball marble points, and enhance the investigations that are trying to attack these groups' activities. we have also been reaching out for bodies to try to coordinate the information that the folks here have to strike to home in

our view of the organized crime groups. another area that we emphasize was to do a much better job of cooperating with people we may not have done such a good job of cooperating with in the past given the breadth of the cases we are looking at here. we are working more closely with state and local law enforcement. we will mention some of those cases later today. we have been working closely with our foreign partners. many of those will not be here to be prosecuted in the united states. we also are trying to work more closely with private industry to try to identify places where they see vulnerabilities and the information that they have been able to collect by monitoring their businesses. we also emphasized -- once we

have this information and had built these partnerships, use the traditional organized crime's investigative methods that have developed over decades by the fbi and other agencies for attacking and dismantling organized crime groups, whether you start with sophisticated investigative main such as wire type -- wartime -- wiretaps, building large rico cases against the leadership of these organized crime groups. waleed emphasized all these areas, we still it is important to have our end-game ability to put these guys behind bars, hit them with rico charges, and do our best to dismantle the leadership of these organizations. as we have been implementing the strategy, for the last couple of years we have found that we need a lot of extra specialized

knowledge. there is a lot that our prosecutors and agents -- as highly trained as they art -- they do not have the skills to investigate these types of crimes. whether it is complicated international financial translations -- chance actions are held cyber crime operates -- financial transactions or some help cyber crime operates. al intellectual property theft rings work, how they distribute their products, how they get it, how they get it out to the customers, and how they get that money back to the people who put all of this together. as we move toward this area of organized crime, we discovered we had a big overlap with a priority of the department of justice which is, how do we

attack the growing problem of intellectual property theft. andrea and i started working together to figure out how we could pick teams together, how we could combine our teams with financial expertise, and how we could address an area that has not been well covered up until now. i will turn it over to andrea to talk about what we are doing about intellectual property. >> thank you, bruce. i also want to thank rich and tethered for putting on this program. i want to complement them on this logo. the eagle in the center is very aggressive, although i have to say that i am nervous that it will fly right out of the screen. if anybody sees that happening, let me know. we have heard a lot already about some of these challenges and growth of organized groups

engaging in intellectual property crimes. we know why we are starting to focus on this area. organized criminal groups are increasingly turning to the intellectual property as a means to finance other illicit activities for profit. it has an impact on our global security. very often, organized crime groups that are engaged in intellectual property crimes are also engaged in very dangerous offenses. human smuggling, drugs, and so on. they threaten communities, law enforcement, and each other. we talked a little about this this morning, what is the allure? what are they turning to intellectual property? you have heard everybody say that it is low risk cyber war. what does that mean? there is very low manufacturing

or injury costs. it is not like they are going to try to get their manufacturing facilities up to code. they are not providing health insurance are paying taxes. it is not like they have to create new methods of distributing their counterfeit goods. they can use their existing distribution chains. in fact, in some cases -- i think this may have been highlighted in the rand study -- they used slave labor to do the manufacturing of the counterfeit goods as a means of paying off their debt. combined human smuggling with the benefits of using them to commit these other offenses. low penalties compared to other crimes, right? the sentences for weapons and drugs or much higher than

intellectual property offenses. the trademark statute -- offenses that pose a serious risk art cause of death can be punishable from 20 years to life. there are significant penalties available for serious consequences from the health and safety perspective. it is extremely profitable. i cannot speak to the accuracy of the studies, but i will repeat them. i think the numbers are impressive. if you look at what it cost to make and what the profit is, for example, drug offenses involving cocaine are around 100%. if you look at the profit margin for distributing heroin, that is around 400%. if you look at the profit margin for committing intellectual

property offenses, that is somewhere over 900%. you have lower sentences, extremely high profits, easy to slip into your distribution change, and there is a large consumer demand. largely intellectual property around the world is viewed as -- we know this is not true -- we this is viewed as a victimless crime. there have been some traditional cases involving traditional organized crime groups. i think bruce referenced one. there is operation smoking dragon. that was then investigation that dismantled international enterprises and collectively resulted in 10 indictments, up 59 arrest in locations around

the united states and canada. they had shipping containers, false labels, and so on. this was in 2005. $4.50 million in counterfeit currency. counterfeit cigarettes which or a big counterfeit goods debt issues by organized crime groups. other drugs such as ecstasy, cocaine and other things. significantly, they also were involved and had a $1 million weapons deal dealing in pistols, machine guns, grenade launchers, tank missiles -- the same groups involved in one or often involved in others.

what the target said to an undercover officer during the course of the investigation which -- if fight scripted out what i would want them to say, this is what i would have written -- what the target groups said it was, "i have spent time for drugs before. i do not want to do that again. counter to drugs are less risky. ." -- less risky." there are a couple of other groups that have done it. one organization based in new york's chinatown -- bruce is better at talking about that -- what i can say is that involved large-scale distribution of pirated dvd set and cds. they were also notoriously involved in using violence and

were charged with assault, extortion, money laundering. as a result of that case, they forfeited millions of dollars which was a great success. there are examples in italy. we know what the problem has been and what the organized groups are. what are we seeing as the chance? bruce address that very well. -- bruce addressed that very well. the globalization of the economy has created more wide- spread opportunity. there are much more sophisticated criminals. these crimes can be quite complex, particularly when you deal with some of the on-line nuances of these offenses. there is new technology out

there. there are improve messages -- methods of manufacturing, packaging, and shipping. in addition to the growth of organized crime, they have emerged in cyberspace. if you think about it, that distant 24 hours a day, seven days a week to communicate, to engage in their financing, and be involved and other activities. you can buy a pretty nice computer today and doom. you are part of it. organized crime groups are less centralized. they are less ordered -- less worry about hierarchy. their connections to violence or corruption are not always apparent. they do not need it to achieve their activities. we have identified a lot of problems. what are we doing about it?

i can tell you that the department of justice is incredibly committed to the criminal enforcement of intellectual property rights. there has been unprecedented levels of attention by high- level government officials in the administration. the department of justice reconstituted back in february the department of justice intellectual property task force. it brings high-level attention to this issue. it is focused on enhancing our operational capabilities. it is tried to create public awareness. we have also in the department reemphasized that's we have -- that we have prioritized intellectual property crimes that are related to organized criminal networks and terrorism. in addition to that, we expect

to work very closely, and have been working very closely with -- administration's administration on developing a joint government wide strategy to address intellectual property crime. in that strategy, will be looking at organized crime and the type of things we can do about it. mike robinson mentioned earlier the intellectual property act. that was passed in october 2008. one of the elements of that statute is the mandate from congress that we need to look at the links between organized crime and intellectual property. we know it is there. we have heard the anecdotes. we do not understand the scope of the problem. how prevalent is it? we are taking steps to educate

ourselves about those issues. one of the things we are doing is, as bruce mentioned earlier, the attorney general created the international organized crime strategy. as part of that strategy, we have created ic2. we are getting all the agencies that have data relevant to organized crime and intellectual property to contribute that data to the database that constitutes part of the ioc2. that way we will have a better understanding of these cases that pop up. ioc2 is also working on investigations and multi-sure additional prosecutions -- multi-jurisdictional prosecutions. once we get the data, we will find out about the connection

with intellectual property crime. we are also working -- there are many folks in the industry that i talk to regularly and am available to talk more, but think it is absolutely true that industry has a very significant role and they are often at the front line of what is happening. they have very valuable knowledge and expertise to share with us that can help us in this effort. we understand that and we have worked with industry. we will continue to do so on these types of things. training -- this is nothing that bruce has mentioned -- the people that investigate organized crime offenses and the people that investigate intellectual property offenses do not always communicate. what we have started to do is to

bring those groups together and provide training to each of them on each of the topics so that everyone can noon -- no -- know that you can talk to somebody who noticed. you will have a resource on the other side. you can work together. we have also prioritized a lot of manufacturing -- we have also prioritize -- a lot of that manufacturing happens overseas. the united states is not immune to intellectual property offenses. most of the manufacturing occurs overseas. what we try to do is work together with our foreign law- enforcement to strengthen those relationships. one of the ways we do that is to our programs.

it is hard to keep the acronym's straight. it is our intellectual property enforcement program. we have one stations in bangkok, thailand, and the other in sofia, bulgaria. they are the cornerstone of our international efforts. theyyare critical to the type of words we do. they develop relationships overtime with law enforcement. you need to do that. you need to have relationships. you need to develop trust. you need to work together on these types of activities. they have done callused capacity building training said. they have assisted in extraditions. they assisted with they -- with the extradition of a filipina --

a filipino suspect. they bring together law enforcement from 13 economies in asia to kind of meet each other, talk about what is going on in their countries, see if there are opportunities for cross- border cooperation. there are no metrics you can apply to that to see how hard -- to see how far they have come. we have met with and trained probably over 10,000 foreign judges, investigators, and prosecutors over the past few years. we have also had very targeted training approaches in certain countries that we have been working cooperatively with on some of these issues including

mexico, africa, and india. we will participate in public awareness campaigns. it is true that we will absolutely not prosecute our way out of this problem. i think education and any effective enforcement effort has to be done side by side with public awareness campaigns like the ones the usa is doing. we have defendants as part of their plea agreements talk to kids in high schools about the consequences of these problems and the consequences of engaging in these offenses. that has been fairly successful. we are looking for opportunities to engage in public awareness to the dlj task force. those are some of the things we are working on. i think it is a growing problem.

i hope that these efforts will have been growing effectiveness as well. thank you very much. i appreciate the opportunity to be here. [applause] >> if you got me back on track. thank you andrea and burris. our next presenter will be dr. jeremy wilson from michigan state university. he will be talking about counterfeit databases and counterfeit pharmaceuticals and organized crime. dr. wilson is an associate director for research and associate prof. in the school of criminal justice at michigan state university. he founded the michigan state university anti-counterfeiting and police said the consortium. he was a behavioral scientist at

the rand corporation where he led the development of several successful initiatives including the center on quality policing and the police recruitment and retention clearing house. he still serves as director. he has collaborated with many police agencies and governments throughout the united states and the world. he is a published author. the list of his books are pretty impressive. they focused primarily on policing, but crime, and others. -- policing and violent crime. jeremy received his ph.d. in public administration from ohio state university. let me introduce to you dr. jeremy wilson. [applause] >> good morning.

i appreciate the opportunity to share an academic perspective on counterfeiting. it is unfortunate for you that right before lunch you have to listen to a professor drawn on and on. i think you'll find this very interesting and a unique perspective. i am going to thwart bryans effort to keep powerpoint presentations out of discussion. the research i want to talk about today as part of our entire eight counterfeiting protection program. we will throw another acronym into the public policy discussion on product counterfeiting. for those of you that do not know, this program was launched at michigan state university to be a university -- international hub.

we bring together the disciplines to about the michigan state university campus to address counterfeiting problems by partnering with industry, government associations, and other stakeholders. we develop these lessons and get them back out through outreach, a graduate educations, online programs, executive education and the like. i want to start at a basic level and talk about product counterfeiting and its impact. we have heard a lot about that this morning. i will bring some of those facts together and get through this sort of quickly. there are probably some folks in the audience who may be new to the area. it may be good to redress that information. i would like to talk a little bit about criminal justice and cosmological theory and -- criminal logical theory.

see thethat, you'll connection between the established tenants said previous research and how that links to the new databases we started developing on product counterfeiting. i want to practice this discussion by saying that we are not yet providing any form of analysis or lessons or any kind of findings. this is in some respects a kind of a teaser. i want to share with you what we have under way, how it came together, and illustrate some of the cases that are comprising the database. what our objective is is to get beyond the individual cases of product counterfeiting and start to look at hundreds of cases at a time to get a sense of to what extent the features of a

particular counterfeiting is a debt are different are similar to other incidents is. are there differences between industries? we can do that to comparative analysis of large numbers of cases as opposed to smaller numbers. with that said, i will kick things off. what is product counterfeiting? that include intellectual property entrenchment. to forge copy or imitate it. specific element of deceit or fraud through this process. what can be counterfeited? we talked a little bit about today and other things. basically, any kind of manufactured or consumable counterfeited from electronics, jewelry,

pesticides, apparel, children's toys, christmas lights, food and beverages, you name it, it they can be made it can be contradicted. looking at what others have done area, there seems to be a general -- general sense that the counterfeiting problem is large and growing. some of these numbers have been used already today. we see estimates of 5% to 7% of world trade. we see seizures between 2004 and 2009. the pharmaceutical security have documented over 1400 persons involved in counterfeiting diversion. that is up 60% from 2008. does anybody recognize this picture? what does that? all say where it is. it is here in the city.

i come here a lot and i see this all the time. it is near where i have meetings. i thought it would be fun to take a picture to illustrate how pervasive and crave the counterfeiting industry is. here we see it on the city streets in the district. i probably should not say. it is in the city. the problem is large and growing. fda investigations into counterfeit drugs suggest that it is up from about 5 per year in the 1990's to about 20 in 2000. a startling statistic is about 40% of surveyed kind -- companies in the u.s. reported encountering a counterfeit products. it is one thing to think that's these inferior products -- to think that these inferior of the supply chain. it is another thing to think

that these products are designed to fail and entered the supply chain. that is a concern. there are these various estimates that are floating around about counterfeiting and its extent. generally, there are mythological -- methodological limitations. the numbers don't around our kind of recycled from one report to another. often derived unreliable process. these also do not capture what criminologists called the dark figure of crime. these are the crimes that are going on that we do not know about yet. so, who is affected by counterfeiting? we talked a little bit about this in the previous presentations today, but i will lay out the broader categories year.

consumers, health and safety concerns, pharmaceuticals -- the fda says that many deaths have these are some examples. fake drugs or responsible for several malaria related deaths each year. you have the complicated problem of people getting more and more ill because their sickness is not treated, the resistance to the drug is raising because they may be getting low dosages of it, but they are also at risk because there could be counterfeit additives that are part of the drug. that could cause additional problems. industry loses revenue, obviously. it is estimated that about $250 billion annually. the auto parts industry has lost

about $3 billion in sales. the seizures from 2004 through 2009 total over $1 billion. there are tangible costs that industry faces in terms of reduced innovation and the cost to their brand and reputation. the government is a victim here, too. any sort of counterfeit goods that is traded is lost revenue in terms of taxes. there is also the cost of enforcement of intellectual property crimes. customs and border protection has spent almost $42 million just to destroy counterfeit evidence in 2007 through 2009. this does not account for administrative costs, investigation, and the like. the economy suffers as well in terms of employment. it is estimated that 780,000

jobs are lost annually due to counterfeiting. there is less economic growth because companies become afraid to innovate. they have to invest heavily in the development of new products. the cost analysis changes if they start to think that if they develop it that someone could take the idea and take advantage of all the profits that come from that. a lot of the statistics are domestic. it is far greater when we start thinking about the global situation. wheat finished a report recently looking at the counterfeit pharmaceuticals -- pharmaceutical market in africa. 70% of the drugs are counterfeit there. looking at what others have done, what have they concluded about the role of organized crime and terrorist groups?

here we provide a quick summary of a number of studies, government reports, and the like. international organized crime syndicates have profited from counterfeiting. terrorists have profited from capture trading. -- profit did from product counterfeiting. more work needs to be done to better understand the linkages among these players and the facts of the crime. is to draw on established tenants of crime- prevention theory. at the heart of all of our work is the problem-solving model. how many cops do we have in here today? how many have heard of the problem-solving model? we have one. that counts. this has been one of the

developments in cosmological theory of the last couple of decades. it has taken crime-prevention by storm. basically, some researchers were working with police departments try to figure out ways to reduce crime. they found that cops driving around on it retain control, responding to calls quickly, was not having much of an impact on the overall level of crime. they started looking at these incidents more closely. they said that these could be grouped in certain ways by time of day, day of the week, vacation, but enter -- and they realize that if they studied have these incidents cluster, they could be categorized as a problem and then they could develop specific strategies to address the underlying problems that give rise to all of these calls for service. sounds simple, right? in the time it takes to develop

-- the basic idea here is that date that should guide the analysis of a specifically defined problem and the response should be evidence based and tailored to that problem. the key to this process is the sara model. this includes scanning for information, gathering as many facts as you can, defining what the problem is -- for example, attacking a counterfeit product operation is very different from saying that we are going to specifically target adulterated madison in africa -- madison in africa. you want to get as specific it's possible. understand the problem. evaluate it. if it works great, move on to

something else. if it does not address or if it was not fixed, the back and start over again. develop a new intervention. the second component is called the crime of trying goal. the crime triangle identifies all of the basic elements that need to come together to formulate a crime. for example, the basic elements include a willing offender, some sort of target or a big dumb -- tim. each of these elements or influence by controllers. offenders are influenced not only by their own decision making, but the emphasis of their peers and other groups. for example, someone may be in a gang or organized crime group.

they have parents, social institutions, schools, churches -- people who influence the the offender. it could be an internet service provider. if we are talking about a company, it could be a plant manager or supervisor. law enforcement organizations, individual citizens who are walking around in the community who could witness something. the idea is, we need to understand all of these different elements of the crime to develop -- developed a specific response. in so doing, we can fuel that problem-solving model. there are additional theories that have been established in the literature about ways of reducing crime. we talked about some of those this morning. increasing the effort to commit crime -- these offenders are

saying that it is easy to do, there's less risk, it is high profit. increase the risk of committing the crime, reduce the rewards that come from committing the crime, or remove the excuses people have for engaging in that crime, poor and cents being a victim. there are other sorts of theories that can be drawn on to help us make taylor-made solutions. these have been established time and again in criminal justice literature from traditional straight -- street crimes to more complicated crimes. people may have heard about the project where we developed a working group of -- working group to try to tackle violence in boston. it became a problem of

homicides. they attacked that more specific problem. that reduced youth homicide. we need to specifically define problems, the profits must be dated driven, the solutions must be focused and assessments on going. we can't apply all of these tenants to product counterfeiting. our approach to developing the database is to use those established tenants to build a data set that we can use to conduct analysis. we started compiling information on u.s. related cases back to 2000 drawing on the open-source literature. we do not claim that this is the only database out there. we learned today about other databases that are collected. these are usually done by organizations based on their own

collections and for their own use. what makes this unique, it is based on open-source information and allows us to have a set of data we can analyze for the public good. as an example of linking this together, one of the cases in our database involves a sophisticated pharmaceutical counterfeiting reigned. we have information on the drugs that were still lying, that they were diverted, that they were diluted, that they were relabeled, and distributed. we are capturing information on the different elements of the crime try and go. we have information on 19 individuals that were involved in this process, what stage they were from, and additional information. we know of the places that were involved, label manufacturers, hospitals, a wholesale drug distributors, health programs -- we have information on the

victims. there were hundreds of elderly patients who were medicaid users. we have information that the incident likely contributed to some -- to the death of some cancer and aids patients. we see various local state -- this provides a snapshot of how the day that we are collecting can fill in the pieces of the crime triangle. through this data collection, we are able to identify the factors that contribute to the problem such as the victim, offenders, places -- and we can identify the problem controller. this allows us to articulate the crime process from start to finish and identify intervention points where we can inform the detection, investigation, prevention, and it response to

the crime along the way. the database will also be helpful for longer-term research opportunities such as doing risk assessments to see health risk is changing over time in terms of products, regions, industries, and held back and be used to -- used for strategies. it can also be used in a format for creating a new national strategy on anti-counterfeiting. this can be used as a gauge on the effect in this of such policies. our process is systematic. we began by identifying residents. we then search open-source locations. did we code that information. we have begun by listing organizations.

we scanned their web sites for reports, case studies, press releases, and so on to identify cases. we then conduct searches of on- line databases. we then went into a more sophisticated search process and we developed two met at-search engines. imagine a search engine that combines bugle, yahoo, all of the major search engines into one. we developed two interfaces' that combine searches for all of these with a single search. we have information from our initial list, we plug in that information into dis meta -- these meta-searches. we are capturing anything we can

find from government documents, court documents, watch group reports, and what have you. we have implemented several quality checks. we have given the same cases to multiple searchers to see what they are getting back to make sure they are consistent. these files then go to a graduate assistant who looks at them again to see if anything was messed or if another search needed to be done. the data base manager completes the search file. i want to give you a sense of the thoroughness of the process. what we have now is that we are finding we are able to gather a lot of rich detail on these cases. what we have done is start with the pharmaceutical cases. we are getting a lot of information on the numbers and attributes of offenders, qualification of harm, links to other illicit groups, and so on. we are about to enter into the third phase of this process.

we will develop a formal cutting instrument. think of a survey instrument where you want to capture as much information as possible from the hundreds of pages we are gathering on these cases. that gets translated into a database which we can spit out into a data set and do analysis on those. here is an illustration of how our process is working. we started and reviewed over 3100 sources to identify cases. out of this, we found spite hundred 68 incidents -- we found 168 incidents. by searching information of those cases, we found another 253 cases that we will cross check. we will likely find more as the process continues. because this is labor intensive, we wanted to start

with something discreet. we started with the pharmaceutical cases. there were 77 of those. we found an additional 35 as we move forward. there will likely be more. here is an example of a handful of our cases. for some of them we have 350 pages of information that we compiled from all sorts of sources. again, what i would like to do now is talk about what some of the cases are in the database. we talked a little bit previously about the extent that organized crime and terrorist groups are involved in private -- product counterfeiting. what i did for this presentation is to pull out some of those cases to illustrate that, yes, we have those in our database. however, what we will not be

able to tell until our data-sets is compiled is to what extent these cases are representative of all of the cases that are out there. maybe this is a smaller proportion of all of the cases. maybe it is a larger proportion. we are sort of illustrating some of the cases that are in there. i think in our previous presentation we talked about the case with the u.s. based cell in new york, new jersey, and connecticut. we have detail on multiple offenders. we got additional information based on an operation in 2003 that involved an asian crime ring in chinatown. 51 people were charged with racketeering, attempted murder, alien smuggling, and trafficking

counterfeit goods. about $4 million in luxury goods were seized. court records show that this group was involved in tracking counted goods as well -- trafficking counter the goods. we got information on russian organized crime. police seized about 60,000 pirated cds and cds dubbed in russian. investigators believed the were pirated goods distributed by a large organized crime network. we found cases that linked terrorist groups to product under kidding. operation bellbottoms, which was a collaboration of various federal agents and all enforcement in los angeles. a dozen people were arrested for drug trafficking and counter the goods. that was largely related to clothing.

the general sentiment was that the shop owner appeared to be a link to hezbollah. that person was arrested a year earlier tried to smuggle money out of the u.s. into lebanon in a child's toy. we are going to be able to find out the additional offenses that these offenders were involved in and the tactics of their operation. identify are ways of promoting that kind of information in the future. 19 individuals in detroit were charged with operating a racketeering enterprise that included by agra, cigarette papers, and others. court records indicate that these profits went back to hezbollah. a pakistani national residing in washington, d.c., was sentenced to 110 months in prison for

terrorist financing. we see the connection to product counterfeiting where funds were transferred to al qaeda and its affiliate organizations and operatives. let me conclude with this. it is a bit of a teaser. some of the information we are capturing, -- what we are seeing in this infancy stage is that the data we are able to gather is very rich in detail. this approach holds a lot of promise as far as forming policy and practice in terms of placing it in a problem-solving framework. by articulating the process of the crime, those work -- those who were involved, and other features, we can identify points of intervention. we can come up with the

substance of intervention, what does it look like, when and where it is placed, where does it apply to the supply chain. is the goal to make the crime harder? is it to make the harm to victims less? with that, i will close this out. [applause] we have a couple of minutes. does anybody have a question for dr. wilson? >> [unintelligible] >> we have not put any waste in place. our process now is to basically gather all of the animation that

we have. it is part of the logs we are keeping. we are tracking where there's data sources or so that we can get a sense of orgies media accounts or investigative accounts -- a sense of or these media accounts or investigative accounts? all the information that we have collected, we have included the original source for that and links to the back so we can do assessments. >right now, we have gotten the initial list of products. we are looking at doing the search and the coding for the pharmaceutical cases. we expect to have the pharmaceutical cases done probably by the end of the summer in terms of the searches and then we will go into the

analysis. i hope that by next spring we will have some results to share on the pharmaceutical cases. the ultimate goal is to create a all industries, all geographies and database that would cover all the incidents going on all over the world. it is baby steps along the way as we build support for the database and try to expand it. >> thank you, jeremy. we appreciate it. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> in a moment, a debate among the democratic candidates for

south carolina. a couple of live events to tell you about today. on our companion c-span 2, a forum on education from arizona state. that is at 9:00 a.m.. attorney general eric holder speaks at the 30th annual convention of the american arab anti-discrimination committee. pulitzer prize winners today on "book tv." david hoffman on the final decade of the cold war. we looked at the first type can, the life and times of cornelius vanderbilt. cornelius vanderbilt. today, all in