problem of slavery, and this is how he was going to solve it, tremendously misguided, and injured the court for years to come. you walk down further and see others. if you ask thousands of llw students and professors who they were, many a couple of them with .

in many other ways, it is of forever-changing place, defined by the human beings serving as justices, all trying to preserve the document over 200 years old in a climate of a changing world. >> you cannot judge the judges unless you know the material they are working with. you cannot say, this is a good decision, and this was a good court, simply because you like the results. it seems to you the person you want to win one. that is not the business judges are in. >> we do not get it right all the time. this is a human institution, and it has the same success of -- susceptibility that any other

institution has. what i think the court does do if aid does not succeed all the time is to try all the time. my sense is probably a substantial number of people in the united states give us credit for trying, even on the days a thing we should have tried harder. >> isn't it wonderful we have the ability to rethink issues over time and lookiig at them and think about them and review ttem and consider whether the answers we have given should be revisited. it should not be done lightly, and it never is, but it is a gift to america. what i do is living up to the oath to do it the right way and to know on behalf of my fellow citizens, and i tried to be

to our constitution. that is the exhilaration, living up to the oath. >> i think the most important thing for the public to understand is we're not a political branch of government. they do not elect us. if they do not like what we are doing, that is too bad. impeachment has never happened. conviction and impeachment has never happened, so they need to understand when we make a decision is based on the lot and not policy preference. i think it is an open process in the sense this is one institution that explains in a public way what is the siie and what it does. >> we have the constitution and and the loss. they mean something. i think the people of the united states understands us the --

objectively, and that is the great responsibility we have. >> we have 300 million people. people in this country do not agree about a lot of things, and despite enormous disagreement, they have decided o resolve their differences under law. >> the supreme court has been respected by the american people. i think it has been one of the institutions of government that is most respected, so it is not 5 that makes the grandeur of the place. -- it is not the size that makes the grandeur of the plays. it is what goes on here that makes it special, and it is. ♪

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court." is part of our dvd set. it is $24.95, plus shipping and handling. for more information on this documentary and the nation's highest court, go to c-span.org /supreme court. resources include conversations with the justices, a photo gallery on the construction of the supreme court building, and an interactive timeline on the court's history. the confirmation hearing for he elena kagan begins june 28. watching all coverage free to watch coverage all week. -- watch coverage all week.

a look now at the fact the oil spill may have on pensacola, fla., with a local reporter. carlwriting for a pensacola newspaper joins us on the phone this morning. when the president trels to region, this is his fourt oil spill toeast, but fir florida, alabama, and mississippi. wh wl he see? >> lots ofiety. many people hin -- we have here, easilycs among t most beautifulnd well. it is pure, white sand. the piure of the oicoming ashore is ve ugly. you have pretty much ach economy here that wilbe broug tan abrupt standstill. host we s some of the

pictures over the weekendas the oilnow in the form ofarge ball on it hits the sand wte sand melt on the you just referred to. guest: yes, we haveeard various things, inclg that sand is fairly easy to clean up. the problem i that once the weather hits, just kes coming. once you are inside the bay have been active in oyster fishery, onheast bay on the northern part, and we have lot of shrimpn the bay, so y coerned if it ge itbay. ho: what will be the long-term economic impact? guest: we had just be in 2004. ny pple were look

guest: the problem is for us we were just recovering from hurricane ivan. this brings it to a halt. it kills everything. tourists do not come to the beach to see oil on it. you cannot swim. it is really bad. it is like putting on the brakes. host: you took aim at 10 salazar. what kind of job do you think he has been doing as secretary and through mms. >> they have done an awful job. their whole job was to prevent this, and i think that is the

federal government's job at this point. i do not know what we can expect the federal government to do. there is no expertise to stop this will from leaking. it is going to have to be vp. it is hard to unddrstand bp's response. so often it seems to be so strange. it seems to be lacking. the oil is appearing close to hear. we would like to hear skimmer's hitting the edge of this before it gets to the beaches, and they keep telling us there are skimmer's out here, but there are not many. i do not know if they make a significant impact anyway. we are expecting an overwhelming response. we want to see the peace -- bp act like t is their own backyard. host: we are seeing a new ad campaign, tony hayward saying, we're going to get this right.

do you believe them? guest: i think the problem is if you go back to the stories from last week, looking at the p.'s plans for this, it was a fantasy. they were projecting things were not going to get to the beaches because their response was going to be so your effective. they have not come anywhere near that. the chief wildlife experts they had has been dead for two years before they wrote those things. the numbers were wrong. the websites were wrong. it was a fantasy. mms was supposed to be in charge of vetting that thing and making sure it was ready. bp realize they messed up, and they look worse and worse. i do not think they are purposely trying to do a bad job. they were not prepared to do the job they needed to do.

host: the president is traveling to the gulf coast to marlowe, his first over nine visits since april 20, -- tomorrow, his first overnight visit since april 20. as a result of these next three days, you think anything will change? guest: know, i do not know. if this were a matter of someone in the white house saying, you have got to do this, and that will solve the problem, yes. at this point, i assume bp is doing everything technologically they can. there have been suggestions they put up a certain amount of money, from $1 billion to $10 billion in escrow and give it to the state and let them control it, and i think if i would tell mr. obama to do a thing, it would be that, to tell bp to hand over the money to these

local governments can make the decisions they need to. other than that, i do not think there is a magic bullet. host: carol is joining us from pensacola, florida. thank you for being with us early on a sunday morning. >> today on "washington journal," the president of the national association of public affairs network, discusses the importance of networks. ambassador negroponte talks about u.s. security. michael tomasky, american editor at large for "the guardian" of london examines the liberal and democratic -- liberal wings of the ddmocratic party's reagan ryan crocker discusses the recent sanctions against iran. that is live at 7:00 a.m.

eassern on c-span. >> thursday, vp's c.e.o. tony headword is as it -- tony a word is scheduled to testify on the hill -- tony hayward is schedulld to testify on the hill. that is live at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span 3 and c-span radio. >> a discussion now on the future of the tea party movement. you will hear remarks from journalists and republican strategist on whether the party can sustain itself passed the 2010 election. this is about two hours.

i think were goi started. ister >> i think we are going to get startedd i am going to try to hold these peopll to time. first, thank you for coming. i am jonah goldbg visiting fellow here ataei nd deighted to be here. today's ent is the first in a series of ev sponsored by the erican citizenship program. the program is dedicated to sttheninthe foundations of american freedom ends governme by renewing our un the topic today is "our the tea parties the future"? i am excited to be here, because this is the first panel i have ever moderated. it is always a bridesmaid and

second, this is a historic event, because my understanding is this is the of this panel they have ever hhd. the average age of -- the young this panel they ever had. the average age is 31, and if you take me out of it, the average age is 14. after all the years, i have learned a few tricks. first, always ask the panelists a completely different question than the one they prepared for. be prepared to be asked about turkey. second, i have to cut them off before they make the most important point, and i have to be sure to pick the questioners most likely to wield to conspiracy theories in the form of a statement. i will try to avoid most of those cliches, and i want to say we have a very impressive panel. they are true experts. i am tempted to say i of convene

i expect the answer will be mine. they are here to talk instead about whether or not the key parties are the future. i have got to say as a pundit, few topix have generated more gnashing of teeth than the tea parties. you get a sense from reading some of the newspapers on this panel that when the fourth seal was open, sarah palin came forwarddon a pale horse with a tea party not far behind her. i shoull say as a matter of full disclosure that on april 15, i was the keynote speaker at a tea party rally in cincinnati, and i did not give the distinct sense

of sulfur in the air when i was -pthere. whether or not a response from the depths of mephistopheles pause bear or read in -- later -- mephistopheles's claire -- layer, these guys are going to answer the question. first, from a seller and ever so usefullchannel, kristin is the director of policy research. she is a contributor to the huffington post, "the daily caller," and politico. she has written for "the national review." for research focuses primarily on the election trends, young voters, political parties, and education policies. she has been published in the

american journal of research for campaign finance refoom. after that, dave is the intrrpid researcher who reports the real america about what the strange creatures called conservatives are about. for three years, his reporting focused on the american conservative movement. he has covered the remaking of the american right for the washington independent. his work has appeared in "usa today," "the american conservative," and "phoenician." finally, he needs the introduction, thomas of "the new york times." keys to hang his hat at "the atlanta..

he is the author of "privileged ." he is the film reviewer for "the -pnational review." that is where i sometimes hang my hat as well. i wwll handed over to christian, who will be going first. >> my primary position is looking at the data. the media portrayal of the tea party has ranged, occasionally sympathetic, but often confused as to what are these organizations, who are these people? before digging into the date, i would say my initial gut reaction when people say, why have the tea parties happened now, why not five or 10 years ago -- my first instinct is to

say it has a lot to do with new media. i believe barriers to entry when it comes to political engagement have dramatically decreased, that even 10 years ago if someone wanted to become an activist, there were more official organized ways f going about it. you would get involved with the local republican organization, and he would be put to task knocking on doors for candidates, whereas now as the average age of a facebook user has one up word, folks who do not have that much time between making dinner and checking up on their kids can now find time to get involved, to get engaged, to send out something on facebook, and because you have reduced that barrier of entry, you have seen a lot more folks able to publicly express their frustrations with what has beee going on in politics, but it is not the tools alone that has

allowed the tea party to emerge the political environment. the tea party in march because of frustration and it cited the about the economy and jobs. as the economy got worse, as unemployment rose, so did spending. you saw the bailouts and the stimulus package, and that the folks of said. then you saw the health care bill, and that is when you saw people saying, enough is enough. you have seen projected deficits blossoming to numbers folks are beginning to see in headlines about, so from that, you havened seen the economy and jobs to emerge as a top issue for voters overall. in february, you had the economy and jobs as a top issue for 45% of americans.

health care was only no. 14 they were simply on the wrong topic, and use of this trend continue until april. the story we like to tell as to why the health care debate was so detrimental to the democrats is it is the equivalent of taking a house that is on fire and saying, that screen needs to be fixed, and you can probably reduce some of the wiring, but until you put that fire out, nobody cares about the rest of it. you really have to dress -- to address the fire, which is the unemployment rate. as you see obama's majority coalition start to fall apart. you saw his approval ratings go from extremely high levels when he was first inaugurated to flat landing here. our survey showed him 45% disapproved. you can see as unemployment went up, obama [pause]

approval went down. most political cientists will tell you if you want to know what is happening in an election, look at economic indicators as the most reliable predictor. you saw the tea party emerge. 15% of voters if we found in our april survey. it had been slightly higher. it has slightly decreased, so what do they want? they want largely the same things the rest of america wants. they want the economy fixed. 37% said that was their top issue. only 11% said health care. you saw us bike around deficit spending. we saw that even higher in february. this is a group of voters very frustrated about the economy,

and they believe spending is out of control, but they are not just looking at economic, conservative policies. we ask them, which of the following is more important -- reducing home region reducing unemployment to 5% or balancing the budget? 63% of them said reducing unemployment. it is not conservative policies as an end unto itself. it is because they boost positive outcome that they get excited about it. what do they believe? we found 64% identify themselves as republican. you have 12% five who said they were democrats. it is not homogenous. it tends to be republican. it tends to tilt to the right. 67% conservative, but that is not all. we asked on the scale of 129,

where do you -- one to nine, were you place yourself on a variety of issues? one person onsidered conservative on foreign policy may be very different from another person. you see the tea party is to the right of the electorate on these groups of issues. we separated moral issues and social issues with moral issues being things such as abortion, same-sex marriage, and social issues representing health-care, domestic policy issues. you see the tea party is further to the right than the electorate, particularly on economic and foreign affairs. you also see the electorate overall is to the right and further to the right on the economic issues and foreign affairs. take a look at one particular example. let's look of the stimulus ann

see what he party folks think about government spending as a way to fix the economy. we asked if they believe the statement -- during a recession, government spending is needed to stimulate the economy. 56% overall did agree, but that dropped significantly with the party, yet when you ask if lowering taxes will benefit the economy and create jobs, 64% of it believe that. when you take this to a bigger lovell, away from specific policies and more to the concept of is the government trying to get too vague, we asked if they believe the government is trying to do too many things that should be left to individuals, 67% agree, and in the tea party, we found 92% agree. i think it is very interesting

as a unifying factor about the tea party. it believes the government is spending too much and this needs to be stopped. -pwhere do they stand? what are the political ramifications? they do not believe the economy is recovering. 56% did not believe the u.s. had gone from recession to recovery. the tea party is less optimistic with 80% believing we have not entered a recovery. 52% of americans think we are on the wrong track, and that skyrockets to 92% for the tea party years. what does that say for obama and the democrats? 45% disapprove,,but when it comes to tea party, 90% disagree -- disapprove. do not let that fool you. it is not just a coalition that is anti-democrat but pro-

republican. we ask the question the show's 43% say they plan to vote for republican candidates in this election, whereas 47% plan to vote for democrats. if you look at the tea party, a 87% said they plan to vote for a republican candidate. this has a lot to do with a high and favorability toward democrats. -- hi un-favorability towards democrats. when you look at republicans, it is not enormously positive either. 50% have a favorable view. the challenge is this. the tea party is going to be an important part of the way we reflect on the 2010 elections, and they tend to favor republicans. the game is not one yet for republicans. they still have a lot of work to

do convincing tea partiers if they are handed back the reins of power, they can be trusted to put in place conservative policies they believe will generate economic outcomes we need. it is going to be about unemployment and whether or not republicans can be credible when they say they want to put in place economically conservative policies, so with that i will hand it over to david. >> i like going second, because i have a better idea. i have numbers, too, but i do not have a giant slides. the answer to the first question, which is a pretty easy question, is the revolution afoot among average americans mobilize by the power of the internet, yes, it is. only recently are we seeing conservatives take advantage of

this. years an enormous historicalix%- surgeon people who can get on line with broadband quickly. a 2003 pugh said the majority of americans access americans by dialogue. by 2009, when the fcc survey this -- by dial up. by 2009, when the fcc survey this, it was 40%, so by 2009, by the time barack obama takes power after his internet-driven presidential campaign, he got people in middle age who are no llnger the urban liberals, who are online everyday with the smaller and nonexistent barriers to entry, and i think that is probably the most important

thing. economics the fine politics, but the fees with which people can become participants in politics is the most important -- the keys -- ease with which people convergys debate in politics is the most important thing to reagan when the key part -- important thing. when the tea party began, anger started in september, 2008, when -pthe passage of tarp. the rally started in february of 2009 when unemployment was stilllat the level the white house could predict it would not go above 8%. the biggest issue of motivating conservatives was government programs that were going to help people who made bad loans get rescued by the credit of us taxpayers. there was economic anchor, but it was mostly conservative anger.

i was at, not the first ever tea parties and the rest of the country, but the fiist in dc. i saw mark hemingway. 67 reporters. it was not clear what this event was going to be. for years, plugged in conservatives have put on the events and invited their friends. we saw this throughout the bush years, conservatives trying to put something together that would shame republicans into behaving better, or in 2009 to convince everyone only ron paul nothing happened. not sure who was there yet -- they started a web site and put this together, and it looked like it was going to be a pivotal event where 50 people showed up. it was plugged in on facebook to

a lot of people in their 50's and 60's who told me they had not been to political rallies before. they always had rallies a couple of people would show up to and talk about the speed at which of or should get out of dick cheney's house, but these were people -- al gore should get out of dick cheney's house, but these were peoole who told me they have not done this before. these were people who were able to get on-line and organize. i do think that is even more important than economics. something like a tea party movement and the economy not been as bad. the polls tell us 40% of americans are conservative, so the subset of that has been hard to add -- to activate, except on

a social issues like immigration, where passions are very high. until to the of nine to get people to organize, but they found the tools. -- until 2009, it was hard to get people to organize, but they found the tools. people now who feel like they can buy and to something spend time and donate online or show up to something, get involved, they can shift the debate. right now it is conservative. if we had this panel two years ago it would have been why republicans are hopeless. three years from now it could be why these are such a problem. taking the long view, it is so

much easier to organize that the tea party is the first example of people not buying into a candidate for an idea are some policy that is going to make them richer, but in a libertarian idea that has been tough to organize around in the past, so how is the future of politics for the rest -- the next couple years?3 conservative. i think there's only so much space and the media for news, and were there no tea parties, there would not be as much coverage of criticism of liberal parties, worries the government is too vague, -- too vague -- too big. there was a worry that they were going to give american handout,

a big stimulus that was going to get us out of the recession. there was a sense conservatism was bad. the tea party did not need to be a majority to change this. one thing you hear often in the tea party is sam adams saying one man with courage makes the majority. that is revealing. if everyone likes to think they are the silent majority, but in reality, this is the latest of many american movements that have taken a subset, gotten very loud,,got an awful lot of media attention, and taken the narrative away from people in power. this affected the republican party. with the election, the parties ram, and they did not do so well. that is the wrong way to look at it. go back to what republicans were talking about a year ago, and

compare it to republicans who won their primary puritans -- their primaries. one was supposed to bay more out of reach for people worried conservatives are to grow. she won by running as a pro-life candidate, because the party activists were so visual, you could not be a serious contender without answering them. they have lost primaries. the candidates that have come up of the -- even if they are faking it for now, the most ideologically rigorous candidates the epublican party has put together, probably ever.

2004 you till have candidates in the northeast and a couple of people and the west. because of this movement, which is a subset, all agree we need to roll the clock back to 1913. we need to take a harder look at calvin coolidge policies, things nobody discussed until these people got organized online. i think it has affected democrats. i think democrats are more reactive than republicans to what is said and the op-ed pages of some urban newspapers, because they are more reactive news shows. this is also on cable, i realize. they play close attention -- they pay close attention to

pundits, to what they feel like the village in d.c. is saying are the loudest people in their districts. if allowed as people in their district were tea party activists, democrats will have ended this congress by getting a lot of what they wanted done, but so much momentum is gone because democrats became convinced through the way they talk to voters fed the country was revolting against them. i am not sure it is true. we had a few special general elections for house seats. republicans won massachusetts because the democratic candidate decided to insult every living person in the state one by one starting with sports fans and english catholics. the other one in why a -- in

hawaii. the democrats have been holding on by running a campaign that is pretty apologetic about how bad the economy is, but basically saying, you do not want the party activists to win because they're going to repeal social security. these are hardly things we're used to them saying. it is not even clear this is going to lead to a huge republican victory. it is clear it has changed with the congress passed and the most powerful democratic majorities in the 1970's, and that is enormous. in makes it clear whatever this this is, with what is being said on the op ed ages, less

power is going to come from them. more often they are going to be reacting to people with facebook accounts. i always glaze over when people went at an ipad about how force for is changing the world. getting this rump of americans who did not represent the coalition that elected this congress, that changes everything. we are going to have a congress that listens much harder to the minority that is passionate, and i am done. i want to hear what stafford says. >> first, i want to youcommend u for keeping your time exactly right so far. there's an enormous amount of pressure on ross. >> i want to start by taking the second time of it.

i want to start by taking us back in time to sometime in 2001, when i was a very lowly researcher looking for a freelance pieces to write. i happen to live in southwest d.c. at that point. i was just south of the washington mall where one of the first anti-war product -- protests was going on, and i decided the thing to do was to wander around the left-wing protest and right of peace making fun of them. i think it was a pretty good piece, because there was a lot to make fun of they have the giant, oversized topix. they were carrying around cliche

and posters from the 1960's. basically, it seemed to me to be eminently lockable movement, and i bring this up, because i think the progress of the anti-war movement from being mocked by right wing freelancers found the washington mall to capturing the sympathies of a majority or even a large majority of americans by 2004 or 2005 was probably the closest recent analog to what the team parties have tried to do or have even done. when they got off the ground, barack obama was riding high. the consensus in washington was

the this was a new progressive moment, and no one was clear about what this was about. they were treated as a joke, and flash forward, and you only have to flash forward a year and a half, and we reached a point where in a sense the tea party message that washington is out of control, deficits are out of control, and taxes are going to go up and up, is not perhaps as potent as opposition to the iraq war was in the darkest days, but it is close, and in that sense the tea parties have moved even more rapidly to aanational consensus. the comparison to the anti-war movement is eliminating in a lot of ways, because there are a lot of things the movements have in common. one is from a consensus. the second is organization,

where the two parties are the first right movement who imitates liberal and left-wing success in harvesting new media to organize. the tea parties include a lot of people, who had never been active or involved in politics in any way, shape, or form, and i remember reading about people who got involved in moveon.org. people in wisconsin who wwre never involved in politics, and they woke up one day and said what george bush is doing is terrible, and i need to get involved. what you see with a similar pattern with many people who have run for office, and at the same time you have an essentially right of center movement filled with people who feel betrayed by the right of center party. just as the anti-war movement

ended up leading to the candidacy of howard dean, who blasted his fellow democrats for having voted for the iraq war and so on -- team may not have been against the patriots back. similarly, the tea parties are motivated -- the patriot act. similarly, the tea parties are motivated with the discuss over the debates in the waning years of bush's presence steve -- presidency. finally, i think there's a parallel in the sense that the tea parties comprised of core and potentially much larger group that does not share the same structural critique of american politics but shares the overall critique. if you look that the anti-war movement, there was a deep structure of critique goong right to the 1940's and the

1950's. i think if you polled people at the first rally, you would have found a lot of people who said everythhng the american government has done since hiroshima and nagasaki was a mistake. similarly, you have the score who do want to start the debates of 1913, who want to talk about calvin coolidge and the 10th amendment, and so forth. in both cases, you have a larger group that has become sympathetic without sharing the structural critique. you can see the laager group as kind of like the old ross perot constituency, people who were conservative-leaning, no one could government, who believe in spending restraint, low taxes, and so on, but are not highly ideological, and they have been moved rightward by tea party activists in the same way many center-left or center-right

americans were moved eventually to an anti-war posture. if we take this analysis seriously, i think it suggests two problems going forward. the first of which is the agenda problem, and the problem theree is whereas the anti-war movement had an explicit constant policy method, which was to end the war in iraq and bring the troops home, and having that kind of clear-cut message is a powerful motivational and organizational tool. the tea party message is more in choate. it is riven by deficit. it is a driven by the stimulus. there is not one set issue that has the same kind of resonance as the iraq war did for the anti-war movement.

you can say cut the deficit is the issue, but that begs the follow-up question about what programs need to be cut, and the tea party might be divided amongst themselves with some people being anti-medicare and social security and some being the kind of conservatives that think medicare is just fine and responded favorably to repuulicans who've attacked obama's health care bill on the grounds that it to cut health care. you have seen that play out off it in the fluctuating fortunes of the tea party. there was aapoll that showed the favorability numbers dropping a great deal since the height of theehealth-care debate. i think what you have seen is when there is a thing if government item on the agenda -- when there is a big government item on the agenda, the tea

party has an easy time attracting support, but when those get taken off the table, you end up with a situation3 have an easier time highlighting aspect of the agenda and the tea party candidates that the american center does not respond to favorably, so what they've was saying about democrats say republicans just want to cut social security, if that is the debate 50 party is having, that is not as thick as the health care debate was for them, and you have a figure like friend paul -- rand paul, who shows how this plays out, were suddenly he struck center stage and the bright lights shine on him, and the week after he won the primary was not a good time for

the primaries. that seed into the second problem, which is the barack obama problem, which is you want to select candidates you are confident will connect your vision. you want true believers. the problem is those candidates3 corps general election campaigns. in a sense, you could say what you really want is a more sophisticated politician, someone who shares your goals but is also aale to reach out, build coalitions, speak to the broader narrative of american politics, and that is where you get barack obama.

barack obama, someone who attacked hillary clinton from the left and went on to win the general election by a comfortable margin, he is an ideal case. baracc obama has not ended the war in iraq and has escalated the war in afghanistan, so i think you can see this playing out with the tea party, where scott brown in massachusetts was he is somebody the tea party backed but who had bipartisan appeal and was a sophisticated politician because of his folksy persona, but then scott brown goes to washington and end of disappointing the tea party in all sorts of ways, so your other alternative is rand paul or sharon angle. can she, who haa been publicly quoted saying both medicare and

social security needs to be phased out over the long terr -- is she goinn to be a potent force in national politics? it is hard to say. this is the problem the anti- war movement's founders upon. they won national elections, but they did not get their ultimate policy goes achieve. i think it remains to be seen whether there is a tea party candidate who will provide the kind of success that has eluded their anti-war parallels in the democrat party. >> b hold the power. questions, i want to make one general observation. i have one question which may have been my fault for not hearing at the very beginning. the first is, david was talking about the comparison between the

left movements and the antt-war movement and the tea party, and i do think it is worth at least pointing out, and i understand media criticism is the lowest form of punditry, but you had during the anti-war movement are remarkable exceptions of fairly radical figures as mainstream. whatever you think of the merits of her position, sheehan is challenging nancy pelosi in that tiny crawlspace to the left, yet you have the overwhelming majority of the media establishment excepting her as an indisputably mainstream, and

norman rockwell kind of figure, yet at the same time, you have tea parties, who are essentially, the flinders -- fringers, the race to portray these guys, for the same people who said dissent was the highest form of patriotism, suddenly, it is the lowest form of racism. it is a remarkable turnaround in the way these guys are portrayed, and it still seems there was this panic running through much of the liberal

intelligentsia and mainstream media to figure out how best to demonize these people, but you never got anything remotely like that when it came to the antiwar crowd, even though ross was general as when he said they were quasiparticles stalinist. they are literally stalinist. one question i have -- "the new york times" poll referred to tea party supporters, because one problem you have is it is not like you have an id card. i asked for one, and they would not give me one. tea party supporters are very amorphous. i know lot of conservatives who would say they are to party supporters common so on the one hand, i could see how the

pulling of this --, so on the one hand, i could see how the pulling of this would--e indicated, but at the same time, the supporters themselves may simply -- these are mainstream people they may be the ideological core of the republican party, but how do you tell who a tea party member is? . wesked t bsic question do you consider youelf a mber of the tea party movement? wted to keep it a symbol. you've seen a lot of research, notthatill have different finitions how one fits in that atory. i suppose youcould do a beer questions king hae u attended the tea arty raly there was an exit poll conduct by politico to 80 party rally n

wall and they d pap exit poll imore rigorouy dined universe, uelking folks who attendedhe rallyin ington, d.c. duri the middle of the day so for the purpose of theesearch i showed the question was do youconsider yourse a member of the t rty moement? >> with that i will pmit you guys a i know you are gifted atthis, workng your swers and the questions from he audience and you're incredib respectful to thconsenof responses from there we going toove and keepthe trains rolling and move to the audience. have one rqust the use state who you a not some sort what is themeaning of li we but just your affiliation and you and if you could please try to akeyour statement in the form of a question would be awesome. way for the micrphone, correct?

yes. >> sing you have to wait for he micropho. but the question germanynd build. there you go. >> i'm politically active with the division of the brherhood of temsters and youlready asked my first question which was the self idenfied ting. guess you gentlemen mosy touched on this. do you think the same tigs that contibuted to the rapidity of the developmenof the t party vement isalso likely to make it difficult to utain e demise likely to be s rapid because of the media and the media used to communicate with each other is the demise likely to be as rapid? in oher words are going into a litil climate where

everything, ll movements had been quickly left right, whatever. people get very enthused. attentiodeficit diorder in the body of politics. thank you. i think so. i was tryto mak the point towardthe end. love to pect things but we are goi to see moremovements. the best examples a year and a lf ago ppl were wkin round withama shirts and a bumper stickers and a year and a half later not everyo i dont think in this city that if you travel into dustin people are less interest to get met a i can see thsituation in a year-and-a-half pople who identified the key party to disappointn some fashion and people are aamedo admit they spent souch tim working to elect these peole but it al

we didn't bring this up in the rspart it's shown t popularity o tea parties decrse in the membership might be dreasing. if theecnomy impes i don't knowwhere the body of th moveme comes from. we couldave a sitation like the iraq war 4% unemployment and a movement based on the opposion was something else but i don't seethis lasting ch longer. will be like thepopulist party joining the democrs and 86. changed things and en we will do a retrospective in five years. i think the only countervling point to that is the posibility that what we see withthe movement from the bush years and the tea party our movments the position driven y a antipathy towas the governing party and governg predent and in that sense they cold last as long as the president is in por so i agreit dave about the underlying dynaics f the movements may lend

themselves to sort flatn the pan phenomena but t the same ime it is if employment goes downo 4-ct nobdy's going to care about the tea party but uemployment isn't going to go dwn to4% and barack oba will stil be present and at this poin barack obama is so identified tea pties spirit inthe firste place. i think wat is more likely o fluctuate as what you saw in the poll t woarties pand the american center like the tea party may have les appeal in the americancter when the 2012 presidential electiorolls arnd but i thinkthat you are stl going see as ong as oba is president during his first term maybe it won't be a pitch it was during the health care debate but at least some kind of right-wing activism will rsist. >> i think onof the other reasons use of such animationn

the tea party paicarly ring the hlth care ebate was that there wa a sense that the present and activism could have some pay of at te end in ts case if you are sding corresndence to a ember of congress and you are gettg yourpposition youould peel off the blue gs. there was the ance that the tea party movement could engage enough americans and creating enough popumovent to stop this train. whereas w in the absenof the health care bill it's mre nebulous. my attendance of the tea pa rally will hopefullycontribute to the outcome x. some sort of like what was ntioned initially that in the absence the lrgeear meage that there is a oehat isheealth care bill in that case it's not harder to ornize but it's just there's less nee to beso lo. >> two uick poin.

e technical. on thelatest poll that shows thtea pary bing play popular some of my colleagu in the review were talking about it and there may be a problem. something of a problem th describes the drop that the generic ballot is favorle to democrats in the pollsha any other d that tell you there is something skewing andhe's a remarkable small nmber from publicans as well. not saying the couple was wrong but may be less dramat than that and the second point getting to the question you know richard hofstadter had that famous essay about thir parties where he argu thirdarties are like es in ican polic they have their imt by stinng andthen buying and the tea partiers righnow all, what are still not a tird-partyand r purely mercenapatisan easons i would hate to see them ecome one. but ey are still already having a huge effect in at

respect. they he pushd the republican party i woul arge in a del bash against what we sw with conservatism and the ret anthey have already had a dramatic effe on th repuican party. some would say pushing to the extreme. gary wght and some would say on their spines. m more of the steel spine column but opinion vary. is it even if they go off nd they die tomorro it is not necearily like some flash in the an facebook fat where everyo's shows up for a snowball fight. they had a lasting impact. another qstion. yes, sir, over here. >> ihave two questions one of which relates to things r the pane g8 cy party shifted the-party movement and broad assault to the center of the reectability.

wonder if the cparison completely fair on theground and not sure the antwar movement as ever abtious because t tea party tried to put oua history book glenn picked as a statemeno correct the record frequently the was a crazy book that i'm sure one of you is awre of that but the academic community excid because they sid just liberals could b facist. the argument the tea party is making as much a historical ere th mvemenwill convince people the war was wrong e firsplace ever managed to ship the narrative to suggest stalin was a good guy in the way that you sgested. the second queion as ou mentioned the n medium of fact t al th it's udertny people who were50 or 60-yrs-old. ani'm curious a quesion for thpanel how do you uggest people would movethenw mea pasthe 50 or 60 demographic to people cser to my age andwho speak to thew media as a second language bt real

haven't been reached by this oup for whatever reaon. >> will try to anwer that quickly one thing ishe rht entered the oba yeath an iul network f media and institutions the left ddn't have and had t buildandstil havet buas successfully as the right. networks that compete with fox, ratings fox does. radio hosts for rush limbaugh ght etered exile i don't kwre of the figur still 20 million but the rush limbaugh listen and glennac program, th think tanks in wasngton, d.c. stuck th bush exiles andthey just i think you broug up little fcism whichas bee incredibly influential. there is a additiona tfor a lot of people that says here i your history that has been denied by e media but the et didn't have that.

i think history with r is in the same as the history with a nedeal. the right is always opposed t thenew deal and opposes th war when a present is declar war and you saw that with barack obama. there is an anti-war movement but it doesn't o anything ymore. [inaudible] please wait unil he speaksut no the right w more consistent about this i the bush years st nobody litened tlew ckwell will these guys were putting out this stuff just ing ther dusty and ady to be picked up and i idn't use the word fred. it just getting easier today to thco each day o connect with people but i think people can le the question better. >> i will let you handle the questionabout thuse, but quicy i hink history never

repeats itself exactl and the analogy is n perfect but you're point goes to the int i wa trying to make which is i a sense e of th potential weaknesses of the tea arty in terms of hing a direct impact on ameican policy as oppod to american politics thahey are in a sese t policy critique is as i said in uwait andmuch more wide-raing in a wa than the left anti-warcritique. you could go ack and forth on this because there is a lof anti-war ativists website howard xin with the same kind of authority that may be tea party in the liberty ad tyanny but i agree there probably is more of a structural critiqued present in somef the tea part tivism but i think that is actually for ms movement that can be a weakness as wel

as a strgth because th anti-war movent always knew what it wanted too when it took power wheas t tea party ght day onwhen it takes power maybe iwants to repeal the obama care but in terms of the deficit, taxes, the constition. if you k thtea party would do you do one day one you get a lot of different wers and there is this sense and which i thinthat he party runs the risk of kind of getting into frankly some of the same territory the left got to not the bush years but in the 70's d 80's where you had in a weird way the left wing academy peopleaking their critiques of the eran society hat pan back sometimes x from the right. he talks but -- while h lks bouthe profession some. but, you know, in the same wy sometimes left-wing academics

would talk about patriarchy or capil i imperialism an it can be tough to move from those nd of broad critues to a concrete policy agenda. >> to answer the portion of your question that pertain specifically to what younger voters may not have benengaged in the tea party mement inthe numbers yu exect since it is a movement thagrew out of the new medi, iwould suggest young voters particularly in 2006nd 2008 wou begino foll from the right you saw in the 2008 election the sort of scarygin of victory for democratic candidates among e youg voters and there is concern once the folksovecome barers to entry for the first time and to vote for a party ce and in thesecond election there's thiinertia that carries you through nd sticks with you in future elections so right now young

e edge of remaining democratic forlong time. luckily for the white democrats managed to screw it up a little bit. thhad th rt of ene behind hope and change faded away and e all e war in ghanistan was escalated and you have young peple graduated fromcollege now and theyan't to the joband they are saying this isn't the hope and change i heard about. so there's an opportity i think for the right to begin to recapturfol to capture optimism. but don't make the mistake of confing thnew media tools with an automatic way to reach young people to read a ot of candidates through especially the 2008 ha thi you build it they wi come entality. if i put the facebook page i will magically have young peoe signing upo bemy fans and it's not the case. the tool is only as useful e messagesconveyi so right

now that he rty movement is the mssage here that i think could haven opportuny to designate with young fols if we could onvin young folks to have skin in the game is the defits will be paid for by our generation ad sowe have something ry seriously a st hereif these policie contue. but what you see now is a little bit more disillusionent stepping froe process rather than the yougvoters changing parties. the portunity is there but it hasn't been eized. >> i'm not goi to get into the defenses of the pofessi som. all i haveo say out that i now out in rback. buithik that she is absolutely rigt about t youth faor and one these things has too witthe sociology of the movements. one of the things we know from

e tea partiers as they have jobs and they pay taxes a a lot of themha cllege-a kids and i dot want to denigrate he sinrityr the seriousness of the large numbers of people in the anti-war movement butat a certain level esthetically tre was something about the anti-war movement that was catchyand i know this is on c-span's'm going toget e-mails from people wh disagree wi me and they wilso in all capi. [laughter] but anti-war movement if there had been attracted wld he been much more personal vemen and much igger as we kno from the imam era but because there is no draft it was in mny ways a very a theological indulgt movement that alwed people t express their cultu positions more than anything else and the tea party movement seems to affect people who hits the

bottom line in their push and you expect given the differences and e level of income an all theres of the people entering the tea party versusollege kids ocampus and so on you would expe those differenc would manifestthemselves in the kind of movements they'vebecome and on this thig about if you build they will co in dg years i'm le 320 but interne i am aof tuzla. i've been o he intnet r a long time ad every four yea ere's been aandidate who s popular a gets a big website and has huge traffic and whoever was the consultant for the campaign becomes th millionaire consulting with peop about how thave a great web sites read the guide that grted john ccain's webste in 200raised so much ney i must've been thewebsite. in 2004 howddean's website n this her incredibly impressive guy because he created the campaign.

in 2008 the new media with obama. here's thetrick, have a popular candidate en people will go to ur web site. everybody has a web si. 's only te popul once people go to yet tey're still list this that somehow it's like the old steve martin routine how to have a million dollars taee steone first get a million dollars. laught, i guarantee yowill have a successl mia campaign if you have a widlpopular candidate first bausethen the re will come. n technogy it's the actor will persona. anyway thegentleman al standin the back might need some exercise. now there's one. estimate why was wondering if you guys ought of as a problem that t teaarty, which started off as being local aairs aren't really focsing on the local part. we'v go gerrymanring,

redistricting, state house races, all these tngs happening whic like thete party stuff would be wel inclined to take care of given how local thmovementhas been paid to you see it as a problem or in your coverage have you noticed people do talk a lot out the local issues? >> i guess i'm the on in bed with thed i give you edit early out in the room of the organizers of the first you wer there when ope wee localized d you have een the last haour of th vh1 behind he music where they've gone off the rails. i don't thin we cover it osely enou because t national media isn't goingto spend its time beingttention to what happe in the cmmittee meetings nd city council elections t actually there has beena strong level tea party more interesting often than with

the natial tea party especily says. you knobob bennett went down, utah senat obbenet win down becausrepublican activists were suplanted by the tea party activis who got involved in the paies and among te things they d were making sure they were elected delegates to that convention and even more locally there are twns i think this first happened in arlington tualbut it's seven in florida and a couple of other places. small stories for first-tim candidates ran fr office, got elected anare in t position to craft buget and things like that so they ctually hav it just hn't hit yet the people becomingoldwater volunteers in 53 it didn't hit people until later and think we have to to see what these w the year politicians do. but 1. i wat to make in answer to the last question was i don't

think the media, hich the liberal mia or the left-wing dia emrace the movement and every aspt the way the conservative media embraced the te pat. i do't thinere's a coaron telling people where to go toteaparty and which the party they to go to king sure th coverthem. they alws have this kind of feing about the people who made them loo bad and the right realizes there are people in he tea party toake them look bad have embarrassed protesters which is is there's that moment when he was a ymphetic but beyond that there was dsent in the naon at the folly of the anti-war movemen has ones promoting tm and not so on e right. e organizati haseen increasing we just need to see what they're doing locally. >> the thing on thoriginal questi there is any truth to the argument people madeafer both the pstate new york race

and it's en erased the they were havinto go to ras where u need o make local argument and ending up runningandidates whowere jst campaigning against the barack obama and nancy pelosi and losing -dug hoffman wasn't even rom the district he s running iand so on. what do you makef tht? >> often peopeconfuse tea party with the group caled th saltine party. the tea p exprss which i think is influential and better than a lot of people give them credit for was the republican packor the tea part movement started and the brand ielf. i think ofn the media sees the candidate. the rpate gross gt involved and in3 it was other groups got inlved injon murtha' district and nationalized but that is what biggroups who want

to impress te dondo the local to party activists in both cas i tink just didn't get all the way up to the line. sotimes you get 4 and it was a victory for the movement even ough isounds pattic when you try to spin it but i think th he pretty natiolization has been more republika orited an blowing it for everyone. relief it takes so mch time an if you don't get paidto do but don'call the ocal wesites to find out wh did i but there really is local activism tt is affected th way towns from their budgets and wh services ey have and it's grular and hard to find. but that is elected design and hasn't bkfired of the way the club for growthdeciing the big issue should be cap and a tree or something has backfed. spck before i ask just one housekeepg thing. as peoplleave -- we hae plty of time -- but as people pick up a copy of the report

which is useul document use of the subscbeo read and seco i bieve it une 17th hopefully somebody wl correct me if the is the next aei e ection largehich gets granularn this and i highly recommend it is a orthwhile thing to do. this gentleman rightere. >> [inaudible] i wanto ask if the is any case in which the tea party uld become a powerful [inaudible] >> i will start bsaying you love the isues that you have seen with the rand paul aky on failing once he wonthe prmary how she rt ofad o reorient frombeinghe leade of a group within a group of an ideologically driven and energized candidacy to en have to run in the general which is a whole different ball game you

have to assemble aajory coalition. you have to get % plus one and i thinthe key par are just a fundamentally, it's based round this idea and a motion whereas a party is based aroun putting peopn seats that havthe car after their name you thoretically will hpe to vote certain ways on the spifics party platform issues. and i think the t party isless vement ibad re onan idological feelingsf iplyed by the rules and now all i am being expected t ailout my neigbors mortgage when he put threeetra bathrooms in his house he couldn't afford or i'm frustrated because i expected to pick up the tab or ac compy where the exeutives are flying round on jets and unions ve unsustainablepackages for their employees. it's things along those line where folks have said i played by the rules ani amfrustrated

byeing responsible to clean up evybody else's ess. i don't think you can create a national pitical party aroun that. it's more justndnergizing emotion that has been drawn ou bthe high uneloyment and sort of frustration with whatasnt been tackled operly. >> i think if therwas a moment when the tea party could have becomea third probably delete the partit's probably passed in the sense republican poticians i think as david said repubcan politicians who had a different political identy just a few years ago made an acvechoice to increase if multirty explicit than the cheaper brand said you uld image a world in which a lot of repubcan canidates spent loof time distancing thselves and tt then produc more and more hoffm

style independentchallenges that the opposite i happenin so f. the institutional epublican party is increasing the tea party and ensuring that the gop will be the party that is stung he be before itdies. >> into should nev ruled o a total catastrophe, and if tere is -- aymaneally if repuicans make a lot of gains to the tea partieand two years later the economy is still all of that's the only situati i think people might say we ted them both in row and they failed us and they'll sart a successful cdateo beat the party th gets20%on the vote realing theamendment and is d that and quoting the borders. a poll tt has lou dobbsws to seeho pular they are around 2 and that ould require a complete collapse of confence i both parties. people don'tlike both parties but they thi may be

republicans learned the lessons if they win and they didn't but i don't see that aslikely because m no thatmuch of a pessimt. >> my name is ken. kristen t e point i want to k in a that waswheter or not as a rest the apparent diminishing influence of the tea party overhe last coupleof months whetr or not you think the fact th tea partiers didn't stop the healthcare bil whether or not you hink that is going to turn into apathy at the voting booth either in 20 or 2012. >> i wouldn't say that it's rned into apathy. there's another question we sk in the survey on a scale of one

mind how likely d you belie y are to vote in the november elections and the tea partiers gave teselves i believe 8hereasver what was clser to eight. slightly higher t the average voter and if you are somebody that's geting out and goin the rallies you obviously cared eoughwhe i believe you will s what t polls and vote and so i believe even though the loss over the health care bill was probably eartening i don't hink at it has markd complete draiing of energy away from the tea party and i believe as we get closer to the nvember election and the stakes reemerge i t he will cntinue toee them play arole. >> how about we go all the way over he this time. we haven't had the lead e. yet. [inaudible] washington, d.c.ar patot and kristi i was wondering what your resech show aut thage breakdown. i know you taled abut 50 and

60 and their crs set >> we did see the tea party tended to be slightly olr and average age come slightly more male than female, kind of middle-income not to read draticallydiferent than the overall electorate on key isues except the age wasslightly older. >> in a od way. [laughter] >> [audible] >> i'm on the boad of t chevy chase republicanomen's club reonsible forpitical educion. what keeping health crealive throgh the tenth amendment issues cmmer clause reigne >> here my own polital bia

will show because the best way -- the only way to keep the health care issue alive in that sensis basically to get t the courts. andi have general bias against cour action so i am biasedtowards saing no but i do think the awer is no generally because you are better off ifoue trying to galvanize a moveme of pple you nt to go to the polls negative and you wt to emphasizdmocratic action and legislative action rath than jucialion and think that republics would be better served saying ou policie to repeal and replace whatever combination you want and run on that in the next election than to say our policy is convincin anthony kennedy to takemore stringent views on the tenth

amendment then he's taken to date because then and our wonderful judicial system that's what the question u raise boils dow tond i think as a rallying crfor a movement trying to mobilize mass cotituency saying vote a new congress into office to overturn this horrible bill is a better rallying cry the am i saying ticket t the courts. >> [inaudible] >> rry, i'msure -- >> i am thinking mo in erms of attorney-general taking us to the court, not the tea party taking it o the court or attorney general's taking it to the urt willgnite a frvor agn, willurther ignite fervor. >> welif anybody els want to jump in mind just skeptical tat -- i'm keptical that -- i think that court decisions hat people on't like can ignite a

backlash. i think pending court decions ere one side is hoping for a particular oucome are les like to ignite in ethusiasm because i guess you ca go and est aroun the virinia courthouse, the iowa court house but it doesn't have the sea and i think gavanizing force as something that is more foced on voting specific people into office who promised to vote a certain way. >> i would adequaty becse henry mcalister of soth carolina as the attorney general responsible i think he was teatening tsue if they ssed -- if hlth care got roh and they passed theull vote and he sort of in the polls and then that wa three months later he lost the nmination and came in third place behind the compreion. so if there is olical momentum behind that it didn benefit the guy at filed

lawsuit. so you are bter f with a repeal and replacement like steve king or michele bachman say. and get me funf in the press for saying it bu vers wanto believe they can pull a ler and make something happen rather than mabey what happens is the candidate will point better judges somd but thatis just -- i isn't the lauit itelf. >> i woul disagree. i'm skeptical about this idea there seemsto be this underte i gather from the one pol th he party is fzzling out and i'm not sure that i buthat hain been to e cincinnatirallied 14,000 people showed up after health care pased and these people were pret committed and invoed and similar rallies all around the country even if things got a half life, the level of intensity and the momentum certnly they will be electis and moreover, i d't

thinthe tenth amendment stuff is what would spark the deviling down othe rsurgence i think ifyoue looking at what is going on in euro with a greased and all that kind of thing it culde something incredibly ovoted and har to gras at first. some defaulng on some bods, that kind ofthing. if there is hugemplosionn the euro that since the world's financial maets into utter chaos, then all of a sudden a lot the tea party cst as fringe might suddenly seem like profits without honor for havin calledwas oming ..

>> i thought the biggest by the mid b-12 shot the people ha got was that the absolutely abysmal jobs report that shows anxiety over the economy will be around for ahile even if the next is a lot tter

there's not enough time to give momentum before 2010 spinach justn that note to, and i agree we don't know enough to say but if there was one come with the fact the gulf asl spilhas displad bara obama's domestic policy agenda as the big story and th is the issue at does not create the sa kind of narrative best the health care bill. is not a good narrative fo barack obama but obvusly for the teapartiers in to the extent that has been t stor, it would not be surprising if they are in statusf the news. >> om georgetown

university. i am old enougto rember when the people who did the first teaparty were praising the mea so i am skeptical that evething has changed. in994 there is a fundamentahangeand to agn in 1980 even as far back as 69. peoplelso said 64. ems it is set off a but e point* is importanto reiterate that if there is an analogy with the anti-wa movement but various others others. >> by and large th have

movements, view, civil-rights is a major one, but can we expect real fundament of profound change? is a limit b also the teapartier movement proses will back the various amendments. coming back to the9th century political landscape. it a thing that augu's going to have those profoun shocks slightly more than 10% that jonah w talking about. our likely to see something as transrmative as were being suggested? on the flip side, to you see

a scenario where this could have impact on t america political scenario if not systematic pushed the policy decentralized come ll's ll's- unless govnment oriented that is their right no. >> i want to hear your take on it too. i think i pretty realistic as far as piano es to say it will last a couple years with a few changes and it might have done unss there is the catarophe. i am sure some can say this

that they might have done the most by affecting the way litics works by the beginningf t 59 ec democrat majority to whatever comesext. but if yostandard everything is fuamental, you will be diointed. could you point* out that ronald ran did n the spending. it wasot aundamental change. heade it impossib for the republican partyo where they will nr meet half way on a tax incrse or on a cap-and-trade bill. that will change way things worbut it is a bigger shockhan expect.

it is changing the policies we have now. it alleems obvious b we might have had a complete a radical curbs in trading syem, we might have had a euroan health re system. but that would be ndamental change if th did noget it. that is evence of a very powerfulovement. >> [inaible] >> it does. coming down 59 throats but getting clobred on every phase 2009 iwas the space r filibuster somebody

else >> fed teapartiers it is a straight position because you have this tremendously succul democratic president ifou looked at the legislation passed but then if you look at what a lot of liberals were hoping fosuenly you can say, actually, allot thought they would we li bowling pins with health care then cap-antrade then carjack, remember? nobody remembers that. obviously they d but there was a broader demoatic agenda that seems much mor poss2onths ago b then they agree with in th normal bounds of amecan

politics, they have already had but this leave the coal are much more fundamental. an end to your question in the absee ofhelacks one isuch re of day grace one but in the absence of the caclysc shock it is intensely resiant to structural changend my own views pernally moref a libertariathan i ever uld have thought of myself being over theast ar and a half with a stronger appreciationor the way our system tends towar centralization even against backlash. my becomin slightly more libertarian doesot

chan anything american politicsere those trends remain intsely powerful. the is ason for peoe who plane r ndamental change my great toward vision and there is a reason negative people who want to see an america without slavery ou extctive to be loyal because thworld shaking events is t only thing that has the push to it is hard t see how the teaparty alone puts us on very different track as opsed moving as of store write. >> what about the centerin the discussion one of the

slides that i presented will meback is most telling is th tesf calvincoolidge would you rather se unemoynt reduced unemployment oredud deficiis tangible potive outces people are looking foby and large. the voes witn paicular movement my be seeking mo fundamental change but bein a movemt to complete the revolutionizes system, is this more abouthose that upset because the policies t into place of put this the path with unployment and those tha we frustrated with status quoif you talk about long-lasting changes, the

most interesting to look in termsof how it wi help the republican party whee do they go from here? i think the teaparty said foreign-pforeign-p olicy conservatives and the three legs of this tool and it has created the economic consvative sentral tat was aided by the teible state of the ecom. >> wh role will lead

teaparty play in this electionf a presidential candidat for 2012? >> pllis a changtheir calendar the republicans will have a cauc cent publican end all of those are a hotbed of activit i think wh they're most eeful about there's a lot of pdges in the mist test republicans have tuesday to appe to theties i that might end up bouncing back on mitt romney. a he had a real prlewith this ithen 200 but t is really 18 months

away. ings can change fundeny. but for now there will be more demand from these candidates on economic ises social issues that seems to be the case. but i don't s pple running the me got what of south carolina for what they think gay marria and what is a flag a governor romney demandthe absd why you will t abolish the better reserve for why we cannot throwback come and go democrats but right now a prettypopular running e obstacle course of there very conservative stements.

on the flip side of ne media, it has been good for the teaparty because you can rerd it but then also ve deo of their republican tellg a nice rob hall supporter we need to resi [laughter] there will be prlemsown e ro. >> one tng that is interesting, that is a testamt to the true grass-roots nature covered there is no one national figureassociated tohe moment and so sarah pan is more popular than mirage may end you can play that game with the list of presidential contende but it is t obvus right now you ass theepublican

primaryampaign wi be somebody w emerges as the mo teaparty for in the candidate running against the establishment oriented candide it is b means clr who that teaparty candidate uld be. i dot have an answer but that is with the more interesting aspects as it relates to presidential politics in backs up you have a lot of candidates to have a stngterest to successfully run the teaparty got it because in the same way in 2008 ty saa vacuum theyried to fill aandidates without an immediate following would say i wilbe the aparty gu lot depends come if you lok

at what mitch daniels is doing rightow, he goes around the coury making very general statement said darth teaparty friendly essentially positioning himselas theuy on economic issues, deficitsbuof the subway he is proceedi you nnot imagine him and pefully it is more than that because a presidential candidate two-man but he says but you have a hard time imagining him trying to check off boxes in town hall meeting. but it remains to be seen at wl the teaptier respond to in a preside candidate? >> there is grand irony one of the thgshey into

trouble for which it truly excell that is producing really bring white guys. and it smso me 2012, the ars are finally agned wherreally boring white guy may do well. you would think that romney would finally think the universe is being fair to him. [laughte also gives the job the guy ose rn it is. is best we can tell it seems that it is meant romney ern but h is the autho of romney care which is sort of li the spanish civil war before world war ii. this enormous metaphor call problem in health ca reform to be the author of something that bark obama insist washe model.

he tries fell lately to exain why a it has nothing too with his own romney care. and in the odd way but it mitch daniels seems to be fiing that space and if there ever be aomen or a bean counter presidency, it ses to me we're headed there in 2012 and that should help que a few g.o.p. candidates. with them so extremist an melodramatic and the end of the worlasreenwood, ron

paul was a shocking quiet guand the ds to if you ha filled a guy who knows how to talk the talk to emerge that of what you would think in the e of obamaould not be astark as ronny or timawlenty but maybe that is what people are hungerg for. >> also miomn is simultaneously the august front runner for the republican nomination but i feel there is way he could possibly win spi regulaclinton hahis problem. and i guess john thu is

meioned but he isoomed rehab this before she navigated mosterfect but then screwed it up. abov40% is not bad for havingaid the cel's in. mae it will survive this ar. >> hisife would kill . i am from the washington tin examiner and. >> my question is for se extent the anti-government been thefear limited cover mint kumya has proven to define eric cantor and characteristics. one wait manifests itself committed jo is there is more conservative tellectualin the building than in the most

european natns but also a manifest in strang ways that tre are, the climate is getting such where government is reaching critical mass of fea and cutting across par lines. i think on the bleeding edge of reacting but sooner or late we wl see a libel response ta broader public response tothe failure of government just as an examplethis is not a strict there are three documeary's ming about educatio reform including thes closer. >> it is the interting developmt. my question is t teaparty

response to the anti-government animists failure to provide bs from a conservative bangko the l.e.t. them to d wth environmental quality and resell left asar as quality. reno it is says she parted movement that what do see us counterpart to deal with the broader fustration d its. i don't think you will see our edison the nature of the american left to have broad reaction against government for failure to assu its proper role. think it is in the same way you ver rarely see tion on themerican ghts demanding more

things. but what you will see is it is the narrative that government would do it proper role of that was knocked in bed with bp but bere the iurance industry, than pharmaceutical companies, so on. at is the left-wing response to the orioles bill. including thecritue over the presidency to date and i think is that critique unemployment rate if ithe stays high i not that

it is like a conservative mood amongiberals but itould have cut either way been a revival where the unions get ctique the way big corporations do. but i am not sure about that i get anti-corporate rhetoric on the left. >> the jobs in the back here has beenery patient. >> i just d a quk question. it seesaid teaparty movement is libertarian type and that is not to true d expect them pickp other movements like right to live?

syndicate ththey are aly picking it up from the family researchouncil has just tried to re the momentum of the two parties and frankly there used to being subjects who dision and character in the med for a long time. flash came back five years ago they gatest threat to america was from those that will christianize everyone t now theyave the energy and the pump-- republican party but i thinkey started off less populbut a public identity and those put it a chance republicans over the last 1 pro-life and anti-gay horror

open twos supporting teapty principles. they are changing that. they change fromreto area talking to those at are extremely libertarian but in most ses, most of a strong replican party are 15 in pretty well if they wereonrvates that felt that for n bng motivated right no these groups are trying. if youead the rhetoric rhetoric, to perkins all praise the teaparty with the implication they knew that there were out there all along and year, you should be talking intake social issues a litt more seriously and send us a

check? >> now theocialssu are out ofhe conversation but at t same time i don't know what it in her the fiorina is hard to my suspicion is s wld not n as a pro-life republican if she was running six years ago d you havesome and pulling the country to the t not universally t there a revival of the end green eyeshade republicawho does t ca about tho issues if my kelso gets nominad you ve more than you do now. chris christie is not social issues guy.

hes anti-teacher union youtube eatest hit but i believe he is pro-life. now you have a pro-life republican governor of new jeey a which is not what you would have expected six years ago. soci issuesot enngled with a north-south culra divide were a lot of people who were pro-choe or o-lifet did not like the religious right to because they werethought of as southernnd i think not having the rublins in power has opened moreoom for a noh east tour western pro-life republican to not be automatically associed or southern evangelicals but don thin we really know the lo term answer the

is just some interesting ends. >> a push from the libertarians on the other side the lertari writer who said they have to have good equalization and my responseas, th is crazy. whatever the mets may be, itould just be politically disastrous. >> but what if it picks up the ght to life? they have to state off messagand pple forget what happens to the refo party. in 1982 it was centrist, charts, ross perot but within eight years it was like the political equivalentequivalent in star wars with the everythingou can imagine

part oit hto do with campaign financeaws the federal vernment decided you need all of thisree money and portunitieto leverage on board and became buchanan's party. sothing similar is happening in the gup's want to hitch their wagons and people wl be suesuln getting her but not all the seven are really going to become the natial right-to-life cagn. the vast majoty o folks showin up to the teapartyrallies have economic issues. it comes down to the unemployme rate and ges ba that as long as the house istill on fire, all t other issues are the uivalent of how will we fixed the window? when should we repaint house

wended his tie came out and filling the economic chlees pker if it phel then need to begin to incorporatell right. >> andresint trucks has new book callethe battle that argues these questions of the enomi idenfication for amerh, how we organize ourselves as a social democracy or a free enrp has been planted for the 1990's. but theres a lot of truth to that. of the two parties, it is not purely we argument but a deep sense of tisot what america is about. it does ha a cral

resonanc fact d forms it a great al. we have time poor one more quti. >> going o of the last question, becoming less of social issueor fiscally responsible that we're getting into areas of puic policy where the gornment would federally fu a portion whether do think that tparty is say viable option for them to pick up >> thats what you w? abortion became aissue because health care was an issuand there was a debate that we we spending more mone andhould spend

some o abortion? the democrathave shied dramatly to a place where theare much less affordable making public funding fan in the 19's and as long as that is the case, you need aemocratic provocation to really set them off did you have one during the health care debate but i don't think they will do that again over there will be another b coming down e pike urging further funding for abortion. there is a place where republicanve an opportity then i caaign the prime -- abortion provision and tere youay see some orlap.

but until then it is less like. >> i ctesist, my old boss. >> there is intesti article in the most rent issue of the >> notntgovernment. there is an interesting ticle the weekl standard and he is not anti-governmentbut pro efficient government so he cuts the blaze but expanding things like education providing this is true of any politician who wantto maeady in america.

of the 435 members the house of representatives, 434t least will never do notes social security or medicare even though they maave opposed it or their parents haverobe sayay or may not be the exception. of saying something nasty about civil rights and immediate a backpedaled. people are in favor of government tworks. they are for profligate spending and but basically rumsfeld is a hockey and favo t war in iraq and afghanistan and whose mission of values around the

rld? it is not the anti-government idea and the teaparty people the people them to say you in favor of social security or medicare, the graveline the old dy kazakhstan said ke sure the carefree keeps their hands off of my social security. is a country that believes in vernnt that works. they want to roll the back as the deficits seem to run away although i think it can be hdled. >> there was a that is right but also the way the politicaclimate is ming, i am not sure w much it tells us because i agree and. has aonderful new bok

called the liberal welfare state and we need to start means testing becausee will never get rid of it. ome ways thathe heart of the paul brian road map was the idea youever get rid of goverent so inste talk aut government rk. but i am notsure at this plant twin teapartiers are such the opposition movement whether or notake sense to suddentart talking about was rollback govnment except for this or this orú? nea

imicions o hezbollah's moting political and militar strength in lebanon. many exper say that lebanon th its deep sec theien struggles is a bellwether for

the balance of powern the ddle et. hezbollah's activities have a direct pact on broader.s. intests in theregion, includin inspirimincy, thatening regnaltability ancomplicating prospects for peace settlement between israel and the palestinians. finally, we will continue policy opons for the united states and others to strenhen the leba government so that it canully control its territory. as we meet here today, hezbollah is stronger than it's ever been. politically and, o course, militarily. and its growingtrength poses a threat to stability in the reon. against the backdrop of rising tensions in the region, it's important this committee and the subcommittee conct a thorough examination ofse issues. duri prime minister hariri's visit to washington last month, president oma reaffirmed the ited states' commitment to

strengthening lebanon's soveignty and indepeence. lebanon is key front line for pro-wen moderates who are battling advocates of e syria/iranesistance model. leban's southern froier is one o the most volate borders in the middle east. th tense area can easily devolve into a conflict sparked by aerceived or real proveivation or by hezbollas avowed retaliationor the 2008 assassinatn of its intelligencechief. from the inction of hezbolla fromhe very beginning in the 1980s to the present, the elimination of the state of israel has bn one of the organization's primary goals. at the same tim iran continu to tnsfer weapons to hezbollah in violation of u.n. security council resution 1701 and hezbollah ctinues and gives

the iranian regime a dgerous proxy that serious threatens u.s. interests, as ll as, of course, israel's existence. st november, israe intercepd a sp carrying hundreds of tons of iranian weapon intended for hezblah. thus, amon t most pressing concern is hezbollah's rusal to disarm a cald for in the 1989 taif accord thatnded the lebanese civil war a more recently in u.n. security council resolutions 1559 and again 01. e sstantial demilitarization, if not the complete disarmament of hezbollah is required to transform lebanon from a perpetually war-torn society and geopolitical pawn into a durable 21st century state. as long as hezbollah is armed,

the group can dominatanon through reat of force. justou years aer its 34-day wawith israel, hezbolh's military capabilitiesoday are mo robust thanever. with the help of iran and syria, its arsenal has becomeore soistited and melethal. during the 2006 nflict, heollahired approximately 4,000 rockets. 4,000 rockets into israel killing 44sraeli citins. furthermore it retains mility superiority to lebanon's armed forc. in april, defense secrery gates said hezbollah had, and i quote, far more rockets and ssiles than most governments in theworld, unquote. we must never forget that heollah and its affiliates have planned or have been linked to numerous attacks again the united states, israel andther westerntargets, including the

bombings in 1983 of the u.s. embassy in brut and the u.s. marine barracks which, together, killed 200 marines and other americans. the are reports thatezbollah was involved in training shia militias in iraq whicharried outtacks againstnited statesforces. hezbollah's political authority lebanon has also risen under cretary-general nasallah's leership. unfortunately, nasrallah has inspired many in the arab world to regard hezbollah as a legitimate riziftance movement whic propagates mitancy. last november, five month after lebanon's parliamentary elections and intense political infighng, prime minister haririgreed to share power with hezbollah and its allies. shortly thereafter, hezbollah

wo a significant pitical victory by acquiring a veto power in the government because it acquired contr of it over a,quote, bloing third, unquote, numbe of cabinet positions. additially, the parliament passed a billhat effectively allows hbollah to keep its weapons. its relative political strength andormible arsenal makes lebanon's political future uncertain. thnature of the role that hezbollah willy i that future and in lenon's security arrangements are the fus of intense public debate in the country. most, i should say, lebanese want a normalized lebanon. freed from the role being --he role of being, i should say, a ient sta a relieved ofhe threat of a formidable pvate militia. that sd,here are significant pockets of sport f hezbollah and pts of laneseocty which sends a strong message of

hostilityo israel. that unyielding hostilityo israel sugsts that irreconcille drences could emerge within lebanon's leadership. partully ifhe resolution of outstanding lebanese or syrian disputes with iael over specific territories improves the prospectsor bilateral pee agreements. the united statesus connu tolay an active role and rengthening the domestic societal and security elements of the lebanese gornment. we look forward to hearing whether our witnesses believe that t united states aid to lebanon, including the administraon's $136 million request r foreignssistance in t fiscal year 20 budget is sficient to bolster the capabilities of the lanese armed forces and the internal security forces. since fisca year 2006, the uned states ha invested over

$690 million in these programs if lebanon is to compete, or i shouay is to completets long transition to a tolerant political syst, the system that was before its civil war, the elected government a serityorces will he to supplant hezah as the prevaing source of security in the country. as we provide direct aid to lebanon, we must ensure tha u.s. arms are secure and do not make their w into hezbollah's arsenal. with the shift of power inside lebanon toured hezbollah it's important and me imptant than ever that wdecide what our re lines are in terms of u.s. military equipment. at the s me, the united states must ful explore what we are up against in lebanon by examining the roles of syria and iran and strgthening hezbollah. we're grateful tod and we're hored to be joine by two distinguished panels toelps

assess these issues and evaluate policy options. ou- onhe firstan we welcome ambassador jeffrey feltman, assistant secreta of state for near eaern affairs. and danie benjin, counterterrorism coordinator at the department of state. our second panel, weelcome three witsses from the prite sector. rst, the ambassador rya crocker who recently tid from the deparent of sta after 39 ars. he doesn lookike i was that long, of public service. serving as ambassador in five countries in the mide east includg lebanon a syria and also iraq. that's where we -- one of the first times i had a chance to meet him he's a dn and executive professorf the george bush school of government and pli rvice at texas a&m university. second, dr. augustus ricrd norton, professor of internationalelations in anthropology at bosn university is re with us as well.

an expert onlebanon'shi community and as well hezbolh. filly, daniell pletka. she's a ve presidt of foreign and defense policy studies at the amerin enterprise instute. and is an alyst on the region'smplex politics and al a former senate foreign relas staffer. am i corrt? that's correct. okay. lcome back. we thank our witnessesnd w look forward to their insights. ani -- at thi time i would like to turn to senatororker if he has any opening comments. >> i'm far more iereste in our witnesses and thank you for being here thank yor your service, too. >> i want to thank senator corker for being wit us. 'll have oths joining us as th hearing proceeds. we'lturn to the oning stat from our witnesse iould encoage you to keep your remarks -- we always say brief and succinct we have a gavel. we try not t use it. but we don't want to gooo

long. youhould know and the range we're talking abouts 5 to 7 minutes, but yr whole statement ll be made par of the record so you d't have to ad all of it, and if it's particularly long, we don't want you to read all of it because of those timonstraints. we'll t to explore se o the issues you may not be able to quesons. your opening by way o so ambassador feman, wld you like togin? >> chairman casey, senator corker, thank for inviting investor benjamin a me to testify today on this imptant topic. hezbollah is an issue that i've been following closely paicularly since i was confirmed u.s. ambassador to lebanon in summer of 20, a sition i held unt late januy 2008. the joint tesmony that we wish to submit for the recd goes into some detail regarding the threats that hezbollah p for israel, for lebanon, for the region, forur interest

and it als discusses a numbe of steps that the united stat is taking to counter these threats. but i would like to use my opening statemento cite a couple of spefic examples of hezbollah'ehavior that i witnessed when i w aassador to beirut. i think that these examples will demonstrateoth the pernicious role of hezbollah inside lebanon, but also the fact that hezbollais neither infallible nor vincible. the first examples one that yo cited, mr. chairm. hezbolh'2006 war with rael. that war broke out in july 2006 whenezbollah assailas crossed th u.n. delineated border bet lan and rael,ling five israe soldiers andidnappg two. this was not the first time hezbollah hadttempted to do something like this. in november of 2005, y know, the previous -- the previous

year, hezbollah had a similar plot tt israel, in fact, foed. butt's worth rembering that just three weeks before this july 2006 war was kicked off, hamas had done something similar in gaza. hama operatives had cssed into israel, captured the soldier whom ty continue to ho. and israel reacted ver strongly. as ambasdor went toebanese politil leaders. inde the vernment, out the government, across the politica spectrumnd i said okt israel reaction to whatamas did. imagine if hezbollah had succeeded back in november a few months earlier in kidnaing those soldiers. imagine what would have happened to lebanon? all the lebanes political leaders who i saw, despite tir litical anings, agrd with me. it would have been aa tac trory for lebanon. nevertheless, a few weeks later,

hezbollah did launch a raid, le than a month after shalib had been captured and dragged lebanon into a bloody conflt in which many civilians lost their live infrastructure destroyed, et cetera. afterwards, hezbollah claimed th 2006 war w a, qu divine ctory. bui doubt that many lebanese would agree. in fact, hezbollah seetary-genel nasrallah later had to issue a begrudging sort of apology on national television. disingenuously state that had he anticipated isel's reaction, he wld n have dered t kidnapping. moreover as a dect rest o th war in2006,ezllah lost it dirt line of attack agnst israel. before the war, hezllah roinelyaunched cket, mortar aacks acr the blue line intosrael or intoheba

farms as a stro of strh and control. today, by rast, south lebanon hosts more than 11,000 unifil troops an thousands of lebanese armed forces. u.n. surity councilesolution 1701 which ended that conflict in 2006 continues to enjoy popular andolitical support in lebanon. so what doe this mean? what it mea is thatezbollah cannot easil renew its patterns of attacks across the blue line into israel. if it do itould do sot considerable polic cost side lebanon. and so for nearly four yea now, not a single civiliann either side of the blue line has been killed through active milita or hostile acts. and without minimizing the real dangers that hezbollahposes, i note that souther lebanon and northe israel have not h such stability and securit in decades. second example i'll cite briefly

is hezbollas inteional crippling of lanese constitutional institution in the 2006-20. as you know as a result the 2005 elections, a new lebanese vernment wasormed with a pro-independence majority a a mandate in suprt of lebanese sovereignty. hezblah,n fact, joined that national unity vernment. yet a ltle more than a year later in november 2006, hezblah draggin i allies with it, citedhe procedural pretext to withdraw from that government. heollah expected the gont to collapse. it didn't. so what did they do next? then they launched a massive siin starting in december 06. again, eecng the cabinet to resign it did not. they then blockedhe lebanese parliantrom et they blocked an eleio of a lebanese president, all expecting people to blink. they didn't. ultimately, in may 2008, to

counter cabinet decisionst saw asthreatening, hezbollah had to do what hasan nasrallah had sworn they wld never do which is turn its arms against the nese people, the ver people they claimed to be defending. hezbollased force tsser a right to vetony govnment decision against its interests while refusing any public accountability or oversight of it's a sad reaty but there are real political costs. e lebanese people have not forgotten the 2006 war, n the events of 2008 in may. if you measure how hezllah and especially its allies ha faired in elections at all levels, you see erosions and litations. erosion particularly in the political strength of hezbollah's primary christian ally and limitatns to the

attractiveness of zbollah's message to lebanese more broadly. the obama administration is firmly committed to supporting the lebanese people and the ngth of lebanon'semocratic institution,ncluding lebanon's legitimate security forces you mentioned, chairman the laf and the f. our diplomatic engagementith syria or any other party wl not comat lebanon's expense. we will continue to support isra's right to defend itself and we'll ctinue to tak measures to inhibit and counter hezbollah's strengthnd capabilities. we wil continue ergetical in pursuing a comprehensive peace in t regn bause accomplishing this is in ourwn vital national intest as we as in the interest of the rio and the world. i want to thank theommitt foits support of this importanrk, including your vote to send ambassador robert ford's nominationo the full senate for confirma. and i thank theommittee again for hding this heing. i look forward tor queson >> thank you very ch mr. benjamin? >> chairman casey, ranking

member ch, members of the subcommittee thk you for the invitation t ap here today to discuss heolh. we sha this committee's d concern about the threats posed by this very dangero terrorist group, its activities and the support and direction it hezbolla remains the mos s. technicall capable terrist group in the world, and i is responsible for some of the adliest tror attacks against americans in histor hezbollah's persistence as a well-armed terrori group thin lebanon, itsobust relationships with iran and a and their ansfer of increasingly sophisticated missiles and rockets to hezbollahhreaten the interest of the unid states, lebanon and our partns inhe region. especially israel. while we recogni that hezbollah is not directly targeting the united state today, we are aware that tt could change. especially if tsions increase with iran over tha country's nuclear program. on may 25th, haan nasrallah, hezbollah's leader gave a speec

anun that they'll targ israel and military inbound vesfs they initiate actio against lebanesets or undertakes aaval blockade of lebanon in a future conflict. hezbollah has ao made a number of claimsecently aut the expanding range of its arsenal when nasrallah stating hezbollah has e capability to hit the airport in tel aviv. zbollah sms to have constituted and imoved. th pvided scu mistoils hezbollah. trsferringeapons to hess bowl aespecially lonr range misses poses a serio threat to lebanon's neighbors, especially iael. such an would have a destabilizing effect on the region and we've wned the syri government aut the potential consequces of these tion we're also taking concrete steps to defend against the threat of hezbollah's mispims as esident

obama and secretary clion have id, our support of el's defense remainseadfast, particularly when it comes to otecting israeli territory fromocket and ballist missil technologythreats. we will connue to cooperate closely with iaeln anti-missile programs such as the aero program and david sling. the administration has committed to providing israel funding f e short range ballistic missile interceptor. ouor will help enre that iael remains the capabity to defendinst and mitigate these threats. iran continues to assist hezbollah in rearming. in violation of u.n. secity council resolution 1701. iran h provided hundrsf millions of ars in support hezbollah a tined thousands ofezbollah fighters at camps in iran. iran ioin n violationf unscr 47hich prohibits it from exporting arms and related material. in 2009, u.n. member state reported to the iran's sanctions

committee three instaes in which iran w found to be transferring arms or oth related material to syria, a hub for iranian support to terrorist groups, including heollah. while hezllah no longer matainsn overmilitia trns in southern lebanon, a result o 1701 it hastrengthened his militia infrastructur north of the lata river a in becka valley since 2006. tang all this into account, i do want tounderscore our ng-term gl in lebanon, which secretary feltman has referred to. when it comes to mitigatinthe reat hezbollah poses. establishing competent and accountable serity forces that are responsible for monitorin and securing all of lebanon's rders and thus undercutng hezbollah's flawed justification defend lebanon.s its aenal t hezbollah's destabilizing actions hav a global reach. the recent conviction of a hezblah cell in ept for

spying, ptting attacks on resorts ows the group's growg ambitions. in iraq, we are aware of hezbollah providing training and othesupport to shia muslim groups tha carry outattas. hezbollah's web also extends to europe and the caucuacaucasus. while this attack was fled and they are in an azerbaijani pron the continued the disregard for the law both insi a outside lebanon continue to urge allf our european partner iluding the eu to take further action against hezbollah. we reject the argumt that there is a difrence between the group's military and political wings. in the western hemisphere, zbollah has tapped into muslim communities to raise funds. in june 2004, the unid states treasury department designated assad amid barakat as a

specially designated global terrorist under executive order 13224. in december 2006, treasury desiated nine individual and twousiness establishments as working in thearakat financial network. in june 2008, the usg froze the finance of venezuelans. we do note, however, tt we have no credible information to indicate hezbollahas an operationapresen in latin erica. addition tour effor with israel and lebanon security forces, ave taken numerous steps to erode zbollah's capabilities. along with the sta department's designation of hezbollah as a foreign terrorist organization whichates t 1997, the department of the sury's office of foreign assets control has ud execute order 13224 to boler the u.s. gornment's capability to target rrorists'ancial networks. wide rge of entities controlled byr affiliated with hezbollah have been designated,

includganks and financial front companies. hezbollahkedngos. hezbollah's nstruction company jihad albinapecific individuals. the united stes has also taken action again iraan entities involvedn funding and suorting hezbollah. in 2007, the u.s. governmen designated under ecutive order 134 iran's cutz rce. in 20the united states designated one of th lge iranian state owned banksor transferring fenunds to hezbolh andalestian rejectionist groups. hezbollah used the bk to transfer funds snims the millions of dollars to suprt the activities of other ort orgizatio such as hamas and gaza. the unid states ctinues t ke the threats posed by hezbollah to it, lebanon and israel as well as the region at large wit the utmost seriousness.

we are miniming the threatnd the influence of hezboah in the region by mouing conserable diplomatic, as well as counterterrorism capacit building and asstanc efforts. let me just say ain how pleased i am that you are holding this hearing, and i very much look forward to your quesons. >> thank both of you. i'll start with ambassador benjamin. the -- some of the military aspects of this, in terms of firepower. coaring where they were where hezblah was in the summer of 2006 with -- in relationship to today. can you give us aense ofoth the nature of the fipower, the rearming tha theve done and, secondly, the reach -- the reach capability and kind of the -- i ink one thing that people in this country who we all lose sit of is what amall area in

20 those rockets hit. such a small geographic area. gives a sense of that geography after the repowe analysis. >> thank you for the quon, senator. heollah itself has said that it has some 40,000 rockets and missiles now,hich believe is significantly re thant had at the time that hostilities began 2006. it has, o course, made these clms that spoke about in m statement regarngittingen gurian rport. beyond that, senator, ild say v to s that wd need t talk about specificechnical capabilities in more classiedetting, but i would also mention what secretary fact that hbollah is not right on the blue line in the way it was before. at least not with an ort militia present. atea in that regard, its threat has been somewhat minished. but nonetheless, ts enormous

arsenal that it speaks of is quite remarkabl an as you nod in your statement, far exceeds the kind of arsenal that most -- the vast majorit of countries in the u. possess. >> i realize a good bit of thi you'd have to speak of or speak about in a cssified settin ll us if y can, what your see is of the -- of the reach as we know it from theublic record. orave they mad statements about the -- you referred to ben gurianairport. what kindf aistance is that? ean in aough sense. >> i know theeography of israel well but i'm not that great ateasuring miles or kilometers in my brai but i wou imagi that i is, jeff, yo probabl knowhis better than i do, 120 miles,

yeah, from the nthern border to the airport. so, obviously, not a tremendous distance. >> you said 120? >> thatasy guess. >> and i realize tse are estites. i just want to ge people a sense of the -- a lite bit of a sense of the geography. second, and i'll get toome other questions in the second round. but as it relates to the question of how 11 can manage this kind of inteal challenge that they have, where are they as it res to the questio of arming or -- not really arming. it's moreraining of their own armed forces where are they in the progssion of that, i either of you can speak to that. >> let me speak briefly on the issue of the inrnal security forces, and then i'llsk

secretary feltman phaps to spea tohe laf. as you know, senator, we'een engagingith the internal security forces through the anti-terrorism assistance programs to improve their capabilities. and when we did a assessment recently on their capabilities, we found that they himproved significantly and that this is a very positive y. having said that, i don't wt to cree any illusions that this is a force tts going t rid the country of hezbollah any time very soon. but nonetss it has played a significant role asou know for exale in the case o the refugee ca and continues to play an increasingly important role in domestic security. >> chairman, the assistance program with the isf and with the f, while administered with different pots of money and by

different peopl onurside, arelinked. because the laas traditionay do a lot of police rk. and by building up theis th capabity of the isf, it allows the -- >> spell out those acronyms. f, internal security fors. it's the police. >>ght. >> nio police. the laf, the lebanese armed forces, which are the traditional army, ar elements. and the laf over the yrs had ken police work gen weaknesses within the isf. so by build up the isf, as ambassador bjamias scribing, the lafas ae to concentrate mo encoreisons such as countertrorism, securing the country, this like that. have, youeferd to some of the figures yourself. since 2006, we've provided to the laf, the lebanese armed forces about$630 milonn

traing, eqpment a so forth. this includes basic equipment such as vehicles, communitions gear, weapons, ammunition. it also includesome heavy weaponry like tanks and artillery to the laf. i woulnote in thisegd the laf ha maintained an exempry end use record. they have 100% compliance with end use monitoring wit the requements on which we put the laf equipme. we have a comprehensive training program to ree and ofessionalize the laf, ao rk with the laf to develop long-tm stratees based on quantifiable milestones. the thing that's -- the thi that's iortant to remember abou the laf is t the national institution in which l lebanese have sort of bestowed their national aspirations. i think we all know from watchingebanon over the yea that there's a weak state structure in general that there ses turned violent such as some

during the civil war with loyalties r political lders or community leaders. what you mig describe as futile-te leaders. but the laf i the o institution at's tran skended those differences. it's essentially a symbol for e lebanese state tt the lebanese people wld all like to have. so there's not only the security tivation behindupport to t bane armed forces. there's more of a national statilding aspect to this a ll. in tms ofeasuring success, i'll give you an oddeasure right now. there's been -- there has been an attack, particularl on the assistance to the isf, by hezbolh, hezbollah's alli, hezbollah assocted media. silly coming out in strg force saying, wha is this? what is theniteates doing with the isf? this is all somethingvery, very nefarious when all it is we're doing is building a credibl nationalolice force. but ezbollah media,

hezbollah polica ganizations are so threatened by what we're doing with the isf, i have to sa but wha we'rdog must be pretty goo inelping contribut to the natial police force. >>hank you. senator riche. >> i'd like your opinions or views on the following. wellnow that the state of israel haseen firm in its determination to defend itself. and as su, we'll act when provoked to take military action ani think algside that and parallel to it, a of us, and ink number of people in this mmittee have seen the intelligence reports aut t build-up of as to hboll and we're not disclosing anything because this has all reported in the media.s been so i think it's a fact tha everyone canccept that tre is substantial build-up of as

with hezllah since the 2006 war. israel in theast has- before theye tak action, usually verbaliz or articulated coern regardi a given situio and lately, we have bn hearing israel verbalize that it has growing concern about the build-up o arms immedialy on s nohern border. what is your opinion or you thouts, ch of you, on the liliho of israel taking acti, given the build-up and given the fact tha the build-up continues. u know, t world listens and watches these things and the when israel takes action wrings it hands about what they've done when we're usulyretty decent warning signs that there was somethingoing to happen. and i'm starting to get a feeling thathere is growing

concern reain some type of critic mass regarding the build-up of these arms. i'd like your thoughts that. >> sator rih, let meake a couple of comments. the first swon the united states stands with israel's right fend itself. it's a principle of o foreign security policy. we are, in fact, working with the iselis t enhanceheir security capabilits against the type ofhreathat hezbollah missiles pose. we appreciat t support o the senate o this committeeorhe assistce, the help israel with its iron dome capability, where isra is planning to deploy 12 ne cnter missile battees under its iron dome. the first pnciple ise support israel's righto defend itself. seco, israel as you know is

gointo make its o decisions based on its own sovereign interest, its own risk calcion. they d't turn to us or looko for agreement approval or anything. they'll make their decion. >> s where do you think they are right w? >> i'll tell you where we e. where we are, i fee more coortable on the ground. we hav been passing the informatioto the syrians,o people i lebanon about the real sks tha continued transfer of sophisticated weaponry to hezbolh put lebanon and the region beyond. and i know at -- inow senator corker was just in damascus himself. i imagine your message was similato ours about this because we are using all channels we can in der to get the message out aboutow dangerous this situation is o these ctied transfers of weapry to hezbollah.

so that's where weare. >> some members of this committehaveone exactly that. we met with the lebanese here within the last few weeks and delivered that message. i have to tell you from a personal standpoint that i was not --hey get it. they understand it. but i wasot comfortedith the response i got as far as wh they thought they could do about it. thus the questioabout what are the israelis going to do abo it >>n t -- it's -- theilma you pos is oneha we have t think about a lot, which is there are fors affecting lebanon that are biggerhan lebanon. at are biggehan the lebanese to manage by themselves. d it see to me that thees thinghat we can do ashe uned states is to try to calm the nghborhood that, frkl lebano gets routinely mugged. and th is one rson why w are committed to getting t a

comprehensive pee, a peace that includes syria. a peace that will address these queson once and for all. the question for us now is how do we manage the situation in the meantime, between that comprehensive ace, thatyr says it wants. that wouolve thesss of these arms transfers once and for all and and i don't h much insights into what th israes inking, but i know they are concerned. they raised their concernsith us >> dan? >> senator sch, i don't have much to add to what secretary feltid. have been hearing the same things youave heard. i amoing to be in israel nt ek and look forward to discussingxactly these issues with the isis. it is clearly a situation of significant tension andf great concern to us. d we haves secrery

feltsaid, been warning everyone in the region. was i damass in march. we have been warning everyone about the dangers of miscalculation and the dangerous associated with the transfer of phisticated technogie and weaponry. and i would be happyo report back to you whe i'm ck. >> thank u. i want to thank both of you for those -- for that analysis. mr. chairman, thank you. >> thank you senator risch. senator sheehan. >> thank you,senator. thank you for holding ts hearing. i think it'simely and appreciate bh of your being ambassador feltman, you talked about the experience over the last several yea that the lebanese people rejecting ollah on a number of ocsions when they were efforts to really grandstandy zblah and lebanon.

so where do y think -- is hezbollahopular now among the lebase people, and are there particular sects in lebanon tt support hezbollah more than others? and if so, where does hezbollah get s popularity? is it from intidation is from groups that truly believe in the message that hezbollah seems to be delivering? >> senator, thanks f the question and giving me t opportunity to offer m insights based on wha i saw when ias ambassad thereor 3 1/2 years. first of all, hezbollah does have genne grassroots popular pport. without qution. we may not like it, but we can't deny it. hezbollah seen able to tap inhe lebanese polital systema divided lebanes polical system based on community loyalty and also provide some social serviceto a neglected part of the

popution. iranian-funded social service we cldsay, but theve been very effective in doing this. but the point i was tryin to make is therere limits. is is not a question where suddenly hezbollah's ideology is going to be welcomed across lebane society, ainst all of leban. so hassan nasrallah seems to be a true believer i the khomeini-style. that seems to be what motivates him. i think a lot of us know a lot of lebanese and you kw that's not sometng -- that's not a way that you would charactize all the lenese. it's an extremelysophticated cosmopolitan population with traditional ties across the region, across the worl dn iraniastyle revolutionary shia-based ideology is notoing t have universal appeal in lebanon. so what you have is you have

strong support forezbollah based in the shia community, particularly based in the neglected parts o the shia population. and then y hav political alliances that are basedn perceived mutu interests. and you hav pitical accommodation that are -- that's based on the reality that hezbollah is werful, has a militia is backed by syria, is backed by -- is backed by iran. but when you look at the election results for municipal eltions, for syndicate elections, for student elections and f - even for parlmentary electnsast year, you do see these limitations. you se esion in t support of the allies that stood with hezbollah. the allieshat thought hezbollah was there. the non-shia allies who thought hezbollah sng to be their ticket to power. you e erosionn this. and it's what i think should

inspire us thato matter how ha theask is i lebanon to ke engaged to maintain our support for lebanon state initionso provide alternativeso the vision that hezbollah has painted because it's not aatural --t's not a natural vision that all lebanese are going to subscribe to. >> thank you. i think that's good analysis. i appreciate that. i was, i'm sure, among many peop here w we very pleased toee the strength of th hariri electio last yr andhe new govnment be rmed ando recognize that the gornme faces rea challges in dealingith hezbollah. e there more or are there way in which the government could

betterundermine hezbollah's guments to the public and encourage them to abandon olence and to rlly move in ways that are more productive t e future of lebanon? ihink tt to thextent that the state can deliver services. the state can create economic growth. in fact lebanon is having something like 8%conomi growth last year and predig 4% to 8% this year to the extent tsets of factor continue, you maintain an alternativeisio the vision that hezbollais painting. hezbollah isn the gornment. they were in the government by invitaon. the lebanere lookingor consensus, a nional unity rnment that can try to transcend some of the things at have been so dangerous to lebanon in the past. i don't see the government a

saying wre going to adopt policies that are confronting heollah. that's not question. the question is can the governme prode the type of services that build a national allegiance to the state that tr send scends all of these boundaries. nasrallah woul pbly be willing to fight t the last but i'm not sure that every lebanese would be wilng to fighor khomni-style rev tlugs the la long to the last lenese. so the statean embo the aspirations of the lebanese for their nation with proper support working to build national institutns such as the police and sh as t army. but again, go back to somethingaid t ranking member risch in that i think our responsibility is first of all to show support for non-sectarian national

institutions like t army. t al to work toalm the region -- theegion who rces have so affected lebanon so myim in a very negativ wa >> tha you. i have other queson but i'm about out oftime. so thank you, mr. chan. >> thankou, senator shaheen. nator corker. >> thank you mr. airman. and thank you both f your stimony and service. secretary feltman, a you mentioned, w in beirut a damascus this last week, d, you know, certainly suprthe righ of israel to defend itself rongly lik most americans do and cerly denounce any kin of terrorist activit tha a orgazationight provide. i will say that, you know, on the ground in lebanon, one would ge a vy differentictures it relates to how people view

hezbollah. among business peoplenebanon which basically gally d't pay bit of attenon to the lebanese government becausef the lack of a ability of a lebanese goverent to do very much that's very effective, they n't really vie hezbollah as a thre. and it's amazing tsee the suort thateople he there on the grod for what they do in the eyes. i'm just repeatingthem, ny own position, but in their eyes to really defend agast israeli aggreson. it's a huge discnect between what you a sayingere and what i think one might pick up on the ground. i wonder i you wanted to expand on that at all. at aolitical level, lebon is deepl divided. d that refed time and timeagain. and so i'm not sured wn the business classes, a class ow well from the 1/2 years i spenthere, makes tir

accommodations wh this reality of divided political class and the rlity of a region that hasn't aays been friendly to lebanon. in fact usuallyasn'been friendly to lebanon. the lebanese -- theebanese are very talented in their entrepreneurial and business abitie they a able to work together. i am not surprised t s accommodation by the biness counity these divisions. >> i think it's mor than accommodation. i thi theyhey are glad that they're ere, doot consider them to be a nuisance, and actuallyonsider h the to be the only rl defensegainst thei perived possibility of israeli aggression. so i thinkt's more than accommodation. >> and i also amot sised th they the need for banon to have adeterrent. look at how many tim ty' ded up inome kind of war over t years. that support that u heard isn't being reflected in electi.t elections, in uni

>> i agree with you on the litical side, but as a defense mechanis i think is being viedery differently. >> there is somhi interesting whh th tim when was in banon, i tri to int out to some of my friends an contacts, which is at one level, hezbollah is cating the condions that then serve to create the threat -- let pea me onemple i know how much the lebanese are bothered, ey fl their national sovereignty is insulted. they're worried about the overflights. these are thing that the u.n. security council has heard from

a number of ubeprese.n. prestasn are a violation. but to make the case to israel you need totop those erflights if t wen't arm smuging. there's direc linkage between the arm transfers t zbollah is engag in and ose isrli overnights. so hezbollah uses the overflights to say, look, you need us, you need us to defend lebanon agast these overflight but they are creatg the very conditions iwhicthose overflights occur. >> it's interesting on the ound again i think rig before munipal elections in the south, there were tho overflights and some of t lebase have a totally different pnt o view as to why those overflights take plac which won't speak about at this moment. let me ask you the relationship between syriand lebanon, obviously is very portant as it reles to hezbollah and as it rates toust relations overall. itooks to me like there were a

cole trips recely. even though his father had been, you know, killed i guess, in the past and theread been suspects in syriabout that, it looks le tt's warming tremendous and i wonder if thatelationship rpiwarminover time mht change the dynamic that exists. >> our posion is that lebon and sia should have a positive lationip, that there shod be good relations,hat when syria and lebanon have had bad relatis, that it's been bad for leb. but it's a reliohip that respect, it need-- that nes e based on the ideaou don't interfere in the sovereignt of the other country. so to the exten that therime minister ohe president is developing -- are developing

that te of relationship with their syrian counterpart, we uld welcome it. there's familyhistory, trade, all sorts of ties betwe syria dlenon. it's natal they should h a good relationship. the trouble that'sappened too many times in the past is that th relationship has been very much dominated by one side interfering in t other. to t extent that they're building a new type of relationship, that'sgreat. >> i'm n sure i'm goi toe re for ambsarcrocker's teimony. i know one of the things he recommends havg an ambassador seararke recommend that hade engage hezboll and of cour maybe it's easy for him to s now that he's retired to be able say that kind of thing, but i wondered what your reaction might b to that.

>> our policy nonengagement. i don't anticipate that polic changing. hezbollah to the eent that zbollah would evoe into a normal par of the political fabric lebanon, and hbollah would,n fact, win significant litical support eveitut its arms, to the extent that ey wou play by the rules, act like a normal political force inlebano i think that weou probay reink our own policy. but for theurrent situation, as long as hezbollah i maintaining militia, i undertg actities inhe region and bond tha basically are teorist activities, wee not engaging with them. >> well,nk you bot for your service. mr. benjamin, i'm sorry we didn't have any questions. but maybe later. >> i know we have a little more time on this pal. maybe fiminutes.

tryi to stick to o one hour. and i won'tominate the remaining ti because i kw that othsay have questions. but i wanted to raise one question. i think i'd be delinquent if ask about this meanto ask earlier. th is fm reuters of may 18th. i'll read the leaof the story says and i'm quoting the obamadmintration is looking fo wo build up, quote, moderate elements unquot within the banese/hezbollah guerilla movement and top white john brennan met with lesesy. leaders on a recent visit.

i haven'seuch analysis that i want to get your sen of what t intent of that statement was an wh, if anything,s being don t effectuate that that's the policy of this administration. >> mr. chairman, mr. brean who spent career in the intelligence comnity may have made an analytic statent about what's going on in lebanese poll tick, but i think this story itself distorts t sen of his remarks. an i would just say th and i would say theolicy s not cnged regarding hezbollah or contacts with hezbollah. we do not distinguish between thpolitical wing and military wing. we do not echo wt secretary feman said a moment ago. i thi i don't think there is any room wi engage want with hezbollah and i would add to what he said be to senator cork's

questi tha i think it would be enormously damaging to our broadeco broader counterterrorism polic if we to ange con hezbollah in a way tt we have not chang wit hamas or any other number of other group that do not play by the rules thatmbrace violence agait innocence as aatter ofcourse. and that pe a threat to k regional allies. i just think that this woulde very, ver damagin to what it is we' tryino achve in >> and i wou hope tt that i iterated and repeated. one final questio boree wrappnd i turn to o colleagues for their final qution for thi pal. th budget question. e $136 mlion. i guess there are a couple questions. number one,ow do you assess that in terms of the impact

how will it be spent, number one. number two, the question the concern about wther or not we're confident that those there ares can't find their way unwittgly or unintentnally, but find the way into somehow helping heollah. what's your sense of that or what can you tel uso assure us that's not t case? >> first as i meioned earlie the ave a perfect record of accountabili for the equnt that we've provided which includes ament on use, physical inntories. they have an exemplaryrecord. in terms of our assistance program more broadly, wre talkg about the fund, we have

a lot of steps in place to make re we're complying with u.s. law as we as u. policy in terms of guarding against the use of funds, material, et ceteenefitin hezbollah or other prescribed organizations. you a a broader qstn which is basically arehe level what is we're askinfor appropria for the task before. and o always haso balance policy priorities with rourc resources.before. anone alys has to ba policy pories with resources.efore. and one alwa has to balanc policy prioritiewith resources.fore. anonalwa has to balance pocy priities with resources.ore. and one always h to balanc policy priorities with resources.. and onalways has to balanc policy priorities with sources.e. and one alwaysas tbalance pocy priorities with sources.. and onalways has to lance policy priories wi sources. but i think we're doing a pret good job. ere was a joint commission he back in fary during t blizrd, deputy pri minister and defense minister moore w leve meetings with list counterptsdod and there was basically an agreement for assuming approprte operatns, a $200 millionr year progm for-to-build up the ecial forces. operations, a $200 mlionroper year program for-to-build ue special forces.operations, a $2 milon proper year program

r-to-build up the specia forces.perations, a $200 million propeyear program for-to-bui up the spec forces.erations, a $200illi propeyear proam for-to-b up the special forces.rations, a $200 million pper year program for-to-build up the special forces.tions, a $200 milln oper year program for-to-build up the special forces.ions, a $200 million oper year program for-to-build up thspial forces. the laf has proven its polital willingnesto go ter teorism in lebanonsove agreed to help build up their special operations forces. which i think is apopriate and will be welcome acrs all lebanon. bute're not the only players inow it'sorth remembering. there's also other support coming inor lebanon's independent stitutio, saudi, uae, jordian, french. so we'reng our assistance i think wisely but are mindful of the fact that others have resources they can bring, as well. thank you very much i think this may be for you, mr. benjamin. i don't know if this is public information or not, t do we ha estimates about the curnt size of hezbollah bothn lebanon and in terms o the number of operatives they're

supporting arod e rld? >> i think we have estimates for the nuer of actual under arms in lebanon a it's in t special thousands. in terms of operatives aund theorld, i don't think w have annuers th we could discuss in ts set. welso wouldaveo addition beeethose who are engagedn fund-raising activities and those who are actual terrorists, those who would be prepareto carry out violent actions. ddditionally wh we're talking about leban, wd have to comepith se discussi, someessment how many people are actually involved in the ganization, involved in their sial svices provision and the like. so i think is a fir lyfair complited picture. but this tms of those who are

under arms in lanon, 000, 4,000 is the standard, am i coect? >> iould gss gher >> you would guess higher >> i think i'm really asking about those who we think are involved in terroristivities directly. >> i don think thateould giveou an estimaten this setting on global activitiesf you were to take intoou iraq, for ple, people training in iran and the like. but we'd be happy toollow-up with y othat. >>hanks very mucto bh of yo we appreciate yourime and your testimony. if we have furer

>> this is the central room providing the direction and developing the plans and operations driving 11,000 men

and women working from the off shore source area. once fluids arive at the surface back to the louisiana shore ines and our efforts to protect those shore lines. this is one of the three incident commands responseable for all operations on the surface from the source to louisiana shore lines. the second post is located in mobile obama and manages mississippi obama and a portion of the florida panhandle and a third command that focuses on florida. over these three posts is the area command structure located in robert louisiana. coming in, you notice this is a

bp billing. what? usually used for? a location in which we train, develop and expand your capabilities there are

typically four command staff running the over all operations >> tell me what happens in this room? >> what you are seeing is the differing sections. what you are seeing here

working to develop the over authorities if you look a little further down, you translate the planning efforts into what does operations need to do they are directing the impact against the success we already have >> it is an incidence command. >> you would be someone one

step under him. jo two steps under. there's the area command. it also includes the epa and department of interior. it is a relevant make up of that incident. >> ultimately, who is paying for all of this? >> the responsibly party is financing this response effort at this point in time. >> everything is happening in this building is financed by bp. >> that is correct. jo we have approximately 1,000

people working 24 hours, 7 days a week. you have a day shift and a night shift. the day shift is larger. the night shift is usually when our planning and detailed objective settings are developed to enable to next days' shift to hit the ground running at 6 a.m. each morning first and foremost, we keep people safe -pand what we asked them to do. we look at them aa the lense at the source.

if it comes past that line of defense >> what have your days been like? >> hard. the soul purpose is to bring everything that they know and your idea to help us to improve. none of us want to be here for the reason that created this

incident and tragedy that inish yitted it. all of us are here with a commitment and passion to do the best job that we can as a unified tomorrow to make a difference all the people here. this shows you where the spill is at. all of this is the stainling and decon areas. everybody in this room is in the fight. they are supporting the operations in the field. we have the world's most reknown experts for oil spill

fighting. everyday is a new oil spill that we take seriously. that's what is unique about this one. everyday, it is a new battle >> the people of louisiana can get back to their way of life this is where we develop the objectives and goals and strategies. we send that out to owl our

field commanders out there so that they can carry out those objectives tactically. >> how? working with the coast guard and bp. how is that working? >> the coast guard ises lead federal agency for the response bill. in that authority, i have 51% 3 i've had this reception with bp. my job is to make sure that they are moving in the right direction to take care thh oil spill and that i work closely. make sure you are clear or understand that we are directing this clean up under our authority. >> how do you feel that's working? >> in our relationship with bp, the coast guard has the legal ressonsibility for this oil

spill. bp under the law has the financial responsibility. we have to join efforts to be able to execute this clean up. , my legal responsibilityyis to make sure that they are preceding in a way that makes sure they proceed adequately i've noticed quite a few coast guard and personnel.

these are all staffed and charged working directly along the proper line. we have a naval operation skimming the oil. part of the air operations include the aerial dispursementssincluding not only improving but skimming as well. we have shore line branches to

super vice the clean up efforts going on there. one of my responsibilities is community in this response. al - i maintain touch with automatic the presidents to make sure we have a uuified field going on. they are fighting this on their soil and their ground. two nights ago, i participated in a town hall meeting. i am off to note, tomorrow night, i have a town hall. it is important to moat the people and tell them what's going on and hear what they have to say. this is not just a battle for oil spill but for somebody's way of life. phe fishermen and the people in louisiana. unless you put that face on the spill, you don't know what you

are fighting for. jo you are looking at the situation status map. we like the newest layers of strat if i or defense. we have the source here as the red star. the red line is where we spotted oil, it doesn't tell you the thickness or whether it is recoverable or skimmable. we have a satellite image. we want to try to eliminate it as close to the shore as possible. at the source, we have the most capable skimming vessels. this is ever vessel available in the gulf. we are reaching across the ocean to get the skimmer that's we need, we are bringing new stuff on line everyday to put

them in the blackest oil, which is close to the source. it's the most efficient way to clean up the oil because it's fresh and recoverable. further way, we are looking at the response. that's been successful for us. since that is a lot of states out there, when we get permission to use those from the regional response team, we use the dispursings out this as well. further in, around the passage and the cuts. moving east and west into louisiana, we have smaller skimmers, stuff you can't get off shore. the stuff that does make it to shore. we have a whole army of people out there on small boats, beach cleaners picking up the stuff

that does get destroyed. a number of techniques and strategies to get rid of the oil. one, we prevent the oil ffom getting to the beach. we use boum to do that. when it is noise calm days, when we get the weather that comes through, it moves the boom all around and it is difficult to keep the oil when we don't want it or whether the weather affects it. in addition to the boom, we have manual recovery. here, you can see -- this is sort of the projection of some of the i am pkts. you can see areas that we've boomed. this is the latest projection of where we've seen oil, not necessarily recoverable oil. a lot of this is sheen. we are trying to pretict where

the oil is going to prevent it from getting on the beaches. source control is in houston. source recovery, burning, dispursing. leading edges recovery and shore line defense and production which is a whole slue of different activities from manual pick up of tar balls and absorbing. we have beach cleaners. it's a big tractor that picks up and washes the sand. we are using that to clean up the beaches. a lot of issues out there in that it is very hot in south louisiana. we are trying not to get anyone hurt as we pick up these tar balls and pick up beaches.

tending and replacing boom, moving boom around. our job here is to support those depoys oit there. we do that by mostly being on the phooe all day long. our job is to find a way to support the people doing the job. it's a difficult battle to fight. most oil spills, you secure the source. everyday, we are fighting a new oil spill. the best people in the orlando are working on this. they are doing amazing things out there. we are doing things never done before. we are burning longer than they have ever incentived boom. we are learning as we go everyday. it's an amazing group of people out there doing this there's n

amazing cast working on this 14-15 hours a day. >> this is the controlled burn unit. we have cameras on board all vess ills.3 we are trying to capture the oil in the boum. two fishing boats. the oil builds up and we send that igniting team over

>> a measure that they utilized to get how many barrels. the minimal amount to the maximum amount. they'll come over approximately 1,000 feet and let us know what the deep, darkest, blackest oil is coming from. this one here, what we are doing here is charting where these are in relationship to the main site. jo the center is where the incident occurred. >> this is our task force right here. anything around here where the oil is coming up, this is where

the caps are on it. all these vess ills here are skimming. whatever they can't get on the skim, we try to get on the burn. they are right at the site, 60 miles off shore. the oil that gets dispursed is hard to burn. we can't get it later. it has to be black crude oil for us to burn. they may be looking at the smoke. it does produce a lot of smoke. that may be a negative to them. as much crude oil as is burning up i think is a positive. once it is burned, it is done. there is little res due on

this. if we disperse it, we spread it out. if we burn it trks gone. that's a gooo thing. as soon as it comes up, we burn it and we are done with it. >> great work. thank you. >> primarily what happens is when the field needs someehing, they send up a request, they basically identify it and pump it and get it back to the field as quick as possible. these gentleman here where you see the resources here. that is our alternative emergency response team. that team is designed to look

at all the different suggestions the people have, the governmeet has and evaluate those as far as whether they contribute to the response or not. >> oik. ok. i'll talk about this here. this room is our environmental unit. we have the world's foremost experts. we have some epresentatives what they node to do is louk at how the oil is dealt with in i'd like to introduce ms. walker a veeeran from the exxon incident. i've worked with her for years. shows amentor and trainer. we wanted to ask you some

questions about your expert he's and experience. >> captain is too depenrouse. jo comparisons are tricky. the setting of alaska versus louisiana is different. the oil is different. the quality is kind of in the same order of magnitude is happening in a much different kind of environment. comparisons are difficult. my rule of thumb is that the only generalization you can say is, it depends. there are a lot of good things on this bill that help minimize some of the effects. >> can you talk about that?

>> i think srnlly the oil and the warm weather anddthe fact that the gulf of mexico is a wide open body of water and all the helpful things. you've tried to put this in a larger picture and let people know that even though an oil spill is always a bad thing, there are situation that's make it better than it could be. what are you doing here? >> we have a small group trying to assess dispersements and evaluate how much dispersements are being applied and factor that in as well as the government agencies that have to decide what's the best long-term plan. all of this concern, what do you say about that? i think it is something

premature to make any judgments about. >> this is the shore line clean up assessment team. this is the folks doing just that. they are looking at he shore line and clean up being done and really evaluating tactics to do hat. giving you more about that. >> this is in the scat room. this is all about assessing shore lines. realizing some oil will come ashore. we node to find it, assess what to do and clean it up. that's what our team does. we have teams right now in helicopters, aircrafts, on the ground and on shore lines.

they track and work out where the oil is. the team do this is a unified team. it's part of bp. we have people from federal and noah and coast guard. we go out together and find the oil and document it expertly and consistently and make decisions about what to do. we have marsh areas, sandy beaches. all different shore lines. for each of those, there are different cleaning techniques to achieve different results. recognize the shore lines we have and how to clean them. we gather that data together and get operations working to those instructions. the final part is that we have our expert folks become out in the field monitoring to make

sure it's done and done welll that's how we do it. you can see exactly how it is. what i should say is all our folks are out in the field rrght now. this is a busy room at the beginning, end of the day and the night. this is thh quietest point. this is a big operation. we have about five, six, seven teams out on boats on the ground deciding where they go. who is going with them. and where they are going to go and document. that's the logistics making sure where they go at the moment. jo when they come back in the field, they are in this desk. they are set up and ready to go. everyday, all of this comes

back. they've been trained in the experts of what they do. they can describe ways that can be reply indicated what it is theyyare looking at. they put it all together and stick it in to a large data base to generate the reports. everyday, we come up with things like this. this is a shore line map where we are showing areas of heavy, medium pollution and no oil. we know exactly where the oil is, how much is there, what does it consist of. from that, we generate what are we going to do with it. we go and look at the fys in the main room. they are out there in the field if that's what we need to do, how are we going to go about it? >> one of the other things i should say is we have people

from noah and polaris who were the architects of had process 20 years ago. you need to be experts. they brought the experts in to work alongside bp plus the environmental folks who are critical in making sure what we are doing is the right thing we do. a, we do it right and b, we don't cause any other damage. the marsh land treatment are the right ones. if there are wild life concerns, we address those. if there are archaeological sites, we keep people away from them. it's the right approach for the right time. those are critical aspects. >> what about you personally, aae you with bp? >> i've only worked with bp about five years.

the last 50 years, crisis management is all i've done. i'm based in the uk. i set policy for bp across the board and how they deal with all risks. i'm one of the small teams that doles with how bp operates. in about 26 countries all over the world. america is just one backyard i work in. i've been pulled in to make sure the shore line response is tough about delivering what it does. >> what is the biggest challenge. if you want to give a humry, it's just logistics. getting folks out in the field. it takes hours to get people to

those locations. now is heat. heat is a challenge. it's hot out there. this is safety challenges just to get to do our job. that's probably one of the co-ones. fur talking about oil on the shores. it is marshes. you have sensitive marsh areas. the best way to clean up a marsh is fot to just going in there and start stripping it out. marshes are sensitive environments. you need to be careful with that. the biggest challenge is getting people to understand you node to do very little. don't mix the oil and the set iment. doing a little bit of effective work is better than doing a lot of ineffective and damaging work and to contrast that on a sandy beach quickly. see the

the idea of going in and getting that quick holds. getting people to understand is not just about skiping it up. there's a lot of expert work and ways to do it and how best to go. >> there is a lot of folks looking at a lot of data. what they are analyzing are health risk to the crews and respondees and any sacheti and health concerns for response wide. in any situation where you have a response. a lot of people looking back on short notice. you have a element of risk. that's true on the land. you take that out. have you a ten-fold risk factor. there's a lot of folks devoted.

looking at how the crews are operating and doing business at the shores in the response area and assessing and making sure everybody is safe and continuing on the mission. the crew health and responder health is pair a mount that we can continue to be effective. this is our cafeteria. we are feeting 750-8000 people in here three times a day. among the services we offer are laundry service. people are staying at hotels and motels all around the area. you can drop your laundry off 24 hours a day. as long as you get it here before 8:00, you can pick it up any time around the clock.

>> we are going to where we have full-time, 24 hour a day medical services available. we can get a glimps in there, sure. if their doors open. it's not. they have folks in this right 3 jo 24 hours a day. air operations comes from over here. they are our pilots. able to deploy all the air resources, both fixed wing and helicopter options. we have as many as 125 being directed by this area.

>> these are the commander offices there. ? a bp incident command? >> a lot of coast guard folks including state and local agencies that have a unified command. >> we have a spiritual side here. eap is employee assistance program. we have a chapel here with regular church services offered

throughout the week. >> i've noticed some trailers. >> if you look outside, you see a lot of mobile command posts, trailers brought in. you see a lot of local police and coast guard. they are being constructed in. as we continue to grow as a unified command, real estate becomes an issue. we want to give our folks room to work to have dedicated as the unified command is beginning to grow, we want to give them room to grow out and have space to work in.

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>> alex gibney, what was your reaction when you heard that jack abramoff had just been released from prison to a halfway houseein baltimore this week? >> well, i knew it was going to happen. and frankly, you know, i thought he had spent enough time in a stir. there were some other people who might well have gone to prison but didn't. jack has paid the price. he's out in a halfway house. i think that's all right.

>> when was the first time that you thought about doing your documentary, brand-new, called "casino jack and the united states of money"? >> well, i heard some of the stories in "the washington post," and i was astounded really by sorttof the audacity of the story and how colorful it was. so i thought it would make a good movie because i'm always interested in stories per se, and jackkis a fascinating character. very colorful, very outrageous. at the same time, the other thing about it that was really interesting to me was it was a story that seemed to me to point out the most fundamental problem in our democracy right now, which is the way that money rules our democracy. it's become so unbalanced that i think it's become the fundamental problem in our society. >> let's run a clip just so the audienne can get some sense of where you're going with this, and this is about a minute, 25 seconds. it's near the beginning of the documentaryy documentaryy