you can also follow the hearings on c-span radio and c-span.org. then watched replays of the day's testimony on c-span2. >> this week on "when they," the director and producer of a new documentary on charter schools. it is called "the lottery." . .

to reduce that to propaganda are calling it advocacy is a little bit unfair. >> what is it? >> the film is called "the lottery," and it is about four families from harlem and the brought to our -- in the bronx who are entering their children into a lottery for a school. thousands and families are going through this process every year. their chances are about one in seven. we're excited to make a film solely about that, their experience. "we found is that there is an

enormous political controversy surrounding the process and the particular school they were trying to get their children in. >> what to watch a little bit of it. [police siren sounding] >> hands on top. 100%. let's hear what you have. >> my name -- i am a president. my mom is the president. >> he was telling us about now owns. >> parents in certain neighborhoods do not really care about education -- and i have never believed that to be true and all of my experience,

and that is not the case. >> pat yourself on the back for all our work if you're doing. >> the problem is that parents do not have the choices that upper-middle-class parents have. they cannot buy an apartment in the ps 6 zone. those are not options. it's not that they do not have those options that they do not want alternatives. the problem is the system that protect academic failure and limits the choice is that parents have. >> if you're not from new york, talking about harlem in west chester, and that woman. fill in the blanks. >> what the public education is

-- what the public assist -- what the public education system is offering a very dramatic and different which occasions -- location. the demographics and the zip code determines your destiny. that is exhibited in many ways, but especially in terms of educational outcome. if you're from a more affluent suburb, we have access to a much better public education system and that is due in harlem. and that is what i was interested in. i think it is morally wrong and raises an issue today, and not just about race, but class. the risks of this are tremendous. kids in harlem do not have the

choice of going to college because they cannot graduate from high school. >> eva mosckowisk, who is it? >> she founded the school. she runs one of them, a harlem success academy. she is a former city council member. she is quite politically active and when she lost her run for borough president, she decided to go ahead and open schools, and do what she thought she knew, which is that all kids can succeed. >> and she is a democrat. >> shias. >> another clip showing us one of your families that you found.

>> mom.

♪ >> she's got to take care of me. >> when did she lose her hearing?

uridine very young, when she was 2 years old. >> was the her home? >> she is a single mother and she lives down the street from me and so i see are a lot. they are in challenging circumstances. she is single, a death mother, she adores her daughter and understands that education is the key to our daughter success, like all the families had sought. she does her best to provide her daughter a better school than that was being offered in her district. >> what did she do for a living? >> she does not work right now. >> and that little kid, i've seen the whole documentary, she does a lot of signing. >> she was very helpful.

it is not been a year. >> how much shooting did you have to do with each family? >> we saw last year from february to may. the idea was to get to know the families and their lives in their circumstances and their dreams. in the months leading up to the lottery, but the lottery being the climactic event that brings all these disparate people together. and it very, the amount of time that we spent with them. in a new york apartment, you know that hey are small, and we had a 6 foot 5 inch cameraman and the equipment. >> you live in harlem? >> no, a live-in 88 street, so part of manhattan. >> if you have never been to harlem, word is a start and finish? >> that is a good question. it depends on who you ask.

they're different neighborhoods -- sugar hill sometimes considered part of harlem. >> and later on becomes a controversy about where she lives. let's see eva some more talking to some of the parents. >> i wanted to make sure to tell you personally about our school design. we do not have any magic formula here. it is basically establishing a strong schools culture -- a strong school culture of high expectations. we have a longer school day and school year, and we're relentless. what happens if you -- if your child does not show up on time? what you think that we do? we're totally focused on you getting your kids to school. i do wake up calls.

we will wake you up. if you're late consistently, we will do wake-up calls. we will work three times as hard and we do and we're very successful. on our practice exams, 100% of our children as the exams. there's no school and are on that has 58% of the children passing the test. what this suggests is that children are capable of enormous amounts. and the problem with education is not the children, it is the government. our goal or our children is called graduation. >> we want to improve the educational output for the children in harlem. and we are hearing that it is not the kids, and the young people are dealing with so many issues in you cannot expect them to be able to compete with other

children who are growing up in better circumstances. we thought that while indeed it was very hard for our children, that we could create schools being created all over america where children learn despite the fact that they are growing up in these troubled neighborhoods and families. >> when did you learn that eva was controversial? >> we really just tumbled on to this controversy. going into the pocket, i was wanting to avoid controversy and politics, because i did not want to -- i did not have a particular side that i did. but we found a that was impossible. what i learned over the process was not really about science. a lot of people are looking to divide and to create sites.

but in fact, it really should be about what is best for the kids. i thought it was important to show the controversy, because it answers the question that i had going in, why are there not schools like this of so many parents want them? unfortunately the answer that you get to that a lot is that some parents don't care or poverty or culture. and i think that it is interesting about that clip, because even the parents at harlem were surprised at this results that the school was getting. what this proves is that this is not true. it is not society and it is not apparent lack of interest that is causing enormous achievement gaps between the west chester and the harlem. i am from greenwich, connecticut

-- it -- did you got a high school out there? >> i went to greenwich high school, the one public school in town. >> greenwich high school has a reputation. how big is it? >> it is quite thick. it's got several thousand kids. it has been growing since i was there. it is known for being a good public high school. i take belle little bit of tissue from that. i think there's a lot room for improvement there, which why -- which is why it scared -- which is why i get scared when i hear that kids in harlem are doing not as well as moscow. and there's an achievement gap when you disaggregate it based on income level or task force,

our students are falling behind. i think we're 22nd out of 29 countries. this affects everyone. with the you are from greenwich or from harlem, this is a serious problem. >> safe to say that greenwich is one of the most -- one of the richest towns in america. and the people that live there do very well. >> yes, they do very well. they're very lucky. >> do they spend a lot of money on education? >> the taxpayers? >> you hear all the time that they spend money all the time in washington. >> i think the money is really important in some respects. it can be a red herring because if you break it down for people, it does not seem to lead to higher or lower outcomes.

i think teachers should be paid more, particularly the best one. there's always room for more spending, but it is more about effective spending than needing more money. >> who gets the most upset about eva? >> i don't know if i can answer that question. we found all lot of people that were obsessed by her. i think she has a long -- a longstanding problem with the president of united federation of teachers. it sounds like the u.s. it was upset about the hearings that eva was holding with regard to school performance. and all of the contracts related to teachers and custodians and principles. and so my understanding is that the union actually ran someone against eva when she ran for president and ended up losing. >> and she is now head the

united federation of teachers. here's a clip of someone who is not on your side. ♪ >> i think the union is a force in europe -- in new york city as it should be. i don't think it is going anyway. the idea that you can get rid of it is a mistake. i am in a union, and my husband ran the largest union in new york city. i believe that by collective bargaining through the union, if you get the best deal for everybody. >> the teachers union contract is 600 pages in length. it is the government structure for school and lays out all the things that teachers cannot do. it prescribes almost every

aspect of the school day. we think teachers need three prep period today to be a excellently prepared. that would be a violation of the country. we also think that we need to be able to work collaborative fully with teachers to improve their practice in -- so i go into classrooms to watch a teacher teach, unannounced. we have an open-door policy. that is pro abducted -- prohibited in the teachers' contract. it's hard to run a school where everything is being determined. what you need to do to meet the needs of teachers -- of children is constantly refined the school schedule. if there is a problem today, we can fix it by the end of the day. >> what did she do in new york

city? >> she is a public advocate >> with the unions talk to you? >> no, unfortunately not. going into it, i was very interested in the whole picture. and in no way from a partisan perspective. unfortunately they declined, and we tried very hard from day one up until we -- i was so determined that i would include them in this picture and i thought it was important but they did not. >> why did they not talk with mark >> the reason that they gave was that they did not have time. i would imagine that over the course of the year, that probably justified that it was not worthwhile. this is my first film, so it to be fair, not many people wanted to do me many favors. it was very challenging to me

one of the most challenging parts is access. we give them many opportunities and said anybody is welcome to speak and it decided not to. >> as you sit watching a documentary, the traditional lineup of democrats and unions do not work. help me on that one. she is a democrat. >> yes. >> and she does not like a lot of things that union to like the 600-page country. what else is bad about the contract? >> there are a lot of things in the country. it is very restrictive. it's interesting that i met a lot of teachers that felt very frustrated. they felt like their hands were really tied and that they could not do a good job, given the rules and regulation.

there was not a culture of success in their schools that they believed it was possible. eva is getting thousands of applications from teachers -- and you have any idea how many charter counter -- charter schools are in the country for to market i think that there are 5000. they're trying to grow that number. >> -- how many charter schools are supported by taxpayer money? >> i think it depends by state. in new york, is 75%. they get seventy-five cents on the dollar and a half the fun race for the final twenty-five cents. >> are they consider public schools? >> yes, they are public schools. they are entirely open for enrollment by law. that is where the lottery comes. the lottery is totally random. >> i noticed on the united

federation of teacher website that they do have charter schools that are unionized. >> there are few in this did it -- and the city. >> why don't they have to be unionized? >> that is part of the charter law, is that they are not required to be unionized. in the traditional public school system, as soon as you are given a job there, you're signed up for the union you begin paying dues. charter's do not have that. by and large they choose not to. >> what year did you get out of greenwich high school? >> 2001. to do what year did you get out of duke? >> 2005. >> is this your first documentary? >> i worked as an editor for five years. i was working freelance, so lots of different prospects, but my

last few are all documented. i'd studied biopsychology, so i was not enough own department. >> what got you interested in film? >> i have always been interested in it. i was trying to find a job -- i was working the sciences, and so i learned how to edit for franz's foam, just for fun, and instead of going back to school, had decided that i did want to work for a while and i have been doing it since. >> the kids in the school, the little boys had ties on. do they all wear ties and charter schools? >> it's hard to make generalizations about charter schools because they can all do whatever they want. many of them refuse to have uniforms, which the schools in

the foam will do. but they are not required. >> the little kids had ties on but the mayor of newark does not have one. >> that break my heart. a child's destiny should not be determined on the pull of a draw. >> the lottery is prescribed by law. if demand outpaces supply, if you have to do lottery. you do not have to do a public lottery. we do a public lottery to show that there are thousands and thousands of parents who are interested in a phenomenal education for their child. >> right now eric is and the lottery for two schools besides harvard success academy. it gets into the others, i would be happy but i want him in harlem.

>> it's like waiting for the lotto. >> it is difficult because some of the best schools in the area, you want them to embrace. >> how many applied and how many slots? >> 3400 applicants and about 4 neared 75 spots. -- will hundred 75 spot. >> here is a democrat from new work -- what changes somebody who was a democrat from being totally for public schools and

then also for charter schools? >> mayor booker has been a champion of education reform for a long time. he and eva were all democrats. and the chancellor in new york have been working tirelessly for many years, much longer than most people have even known that this was a problem. and i think what is at the heart of it is probably what attracted me to this issue, wis -- this sense of injustice and then it does not have to be that way. they can be traditional public schools or charter schools or private schools. it does not really matter. but when they are working, you can really feel it. the kids are happy, the teachers are happy -- they are learning and they are moving toward college. i think many people like mayor

booker believe that it is possible for things to get better. >> what is driving you in this? being a documentarian or being interested in issues? documentaries are often issues- driven. >> i was really interested in the store. i wanted to get to know the families and their kids and to tell their side of the story. you hear the terrible statistics all the time, the outcomes which are incarceration or dying young, being on welfare -- serious risks. but that is not the heart of it. the heart is that these are real kids. and you see these kids in the komen they are like any other, they are adorable. someone asked me -- so actually accused me of choosing the most adorable kids.

any kid hold promise. for me it was a story about being interesting. i've certainly become free attached into trying to help improve the circumstances. >> we saw three new parents there. how did you find them? >> i met them at information's lessons that the school holds. it is essentially all open house and parents come there. many of them come -- it's interesting, because one of the myths have encountered is that these are parents that care more. but i've met a lot of parents there by accident. they do and unmet -- an aggressive marketing, because

they believe that all kids deserve the best chance. you meet a lot of parents fetters simply there by accident. >> here is eva again. >> the unions are playing to win. they did not want to be the face of opposition to charter, and because it would be so obvious that they are protecting the interests of their members -- what they will often do is higher an outside group like acorn, a community-based organization, and they will boston hired gun, protesters, who will protest charter schools in general at a particular school. they make a number of arguments about charter school. as a charter schools only succeed because the house small class sizes, even though we have

classes of 29 children, or the was a charter schools do not educate special education kids. that will say that a charter school goes into a building, at that class size would triple, even though the schools are incredibly under unrolled. it is a national chronicle. if you're a charter school operator in in the state, you will find that the opposition comes from unions and from democratic local officials. >> what is the reason the unions do not want charter schools? >> there is a turf war going on. the public education system has existed the way that it does now since just after world war i. and that is a lot of time. and the union has had a monopoly over for that amount of time. if you become a teacher and a

public school system in new york city, you're automatically enrolled in the union, and that is a good position to have. they are of business, and their job is to protect teachers and charter schools are not required to unionize, and so that is a threat. >> where did the acorn group come from, and what is the status of acorn in this country today? >> acorn is been dissolved. it is probably a structured itself as a different organization. which varies by state. but at the time, they were a community-based organization, that the u.s. team -- uft paid to protest against charter schools in general. we encountered that political controversy, and we just drove by that protest and became

serious about what was going on, and it turned out that they were protesting schools that are parents wanted to get their children to. >> what they talk to you for your margin know, they said that they were not allowed. they only identified a couple pairs from the schools who did talk. >> be used taper film? >> tape. >> when did you take that demonstration? >> that is a good question. i think that was in the spring. >> of 2009. >> we film from february to nag, so it was before the lottery. >> i am not a bad charter schools, but the way that they are accusing charter schools in this neighborhood, i am against that. in my opinion, it is another tool for justification.

>> we would like to be involved in our roles. >> we have our union president, who would not be inside. >> the people united will never be defeated! the people united will never be defeated! >> this is not just about the school. this is about every school in this community. i'm so glad that we're joined by acorn. [applause] young man, come over here for a minute. [applause] this is for you. what is your name?

let me hearryou say -- >> the people united will never be defeated. i was save my city. >> we have our marching orders. >> explain that phrase. how are they being defeated with charter schools credit margin that is like an acorn chant. you will hear them saying that for public housing disputes and i don't know how specific it was to that. but you do get the sense that the community is an emotional and aggressive feeling between

the harlem success academy parents who need additional space and paris from the community as well as parents that the union is busing and to come argue against this. i think that there's a sense that these charter schools are coming from outside, that they are taking over the community, and that is as gentrification like the gentleman said earlier. i think those are intentionally propagated by the union. >> you mentioned $500,000 was spent by be uft to bring in people from acorn. how much did this film cost you? >> my phone calls me less than that. the funding was from all over. i had some very generous donors early on which enabled me to

begin filming. >> for their donors that knew what you -- what your point of view was? >> there were not really interested. they wanted me to make them. they were just very generous and entrusted me with that. but the town the week that early on, i use that to raise money. i applied for grants that support everything from poverty the public education to entertainment and so on. >> you would show them their film? >> i would show them short pieces so that they got a sense of production quality. >> if you are not headed in that direction of supporting the ideas of choice, would they have funded you? >> i think it depends on the founder. they had no say over the final product. as far as they were concerned, it could have ended up by the

way. they did not see an early rough cut even. >> did anyone monitor your phone? >> in no way. she was very generous, open in ourrschool doors and not knowing what the final product would be. >> public space, and i alluded to it, charter schools are located sometimes inside another school? >> yes. in new york that happens very often. one thing that the chancellor has done in the traditional school system is breakdown large schools to be many small schools in the same building. this is sort of like that. you can have a public charter school on one floor and a traditional public school on another. >> here is the clip. >> in front of us this evening is the location of harlem

success academy ii into the m194 facility. >> we started our first call august 2006. we believed deeply in what children can accomplish. we obviously need a space for our schools, and that is why we're here. thank you very much. >> i am the future president of 194. if you mean well, then you would not come into our community and try to divide the neighbors. the ps 194 is here and we will not -- i repeat -- we will not give up this fight. build your own building.

>> let me say to her, as i have said to you before, folks in harlem will not let you disrespect them. [applause] >> she is our obama. she wants to help our kids. we are not trying to keep your kids from coming here. let's work together as a community. >> how much attention was in the room? >> very high. they would occasionally have to calm people down. >> that was a school that was at

risk of being closed for poor performance. they had something like 30% of kids at grade level. it's hard to imagine -- for the past many years, another few hundred kids are going to go to the school and basically know that 70% of them are not going to be at grade level. and so the chancellor was planning on closing the school, and that's what you got such anger. >> i have a problem with 21 school coming up in harlem. i am so tired of people disrespecting made and my children and my school. this space is for the children

for the schools. mr. white, go back into your boss's that no one is going to run through here but the storm and normandie. that is not happening. >> also says academy, you're not welcome here. we will fight. i will fight until my dying day. i refuse to her 194. [unintelligible] >> did it happen? >> did they get into the space? no, they did not. >> to determine that were to mark >> what ended up happening was that they filed a law school -- a lawsuit about the school vote -- closing and one. the space to not become

available. >> can someone go to a charter school in harlem above 110th street -- and if you are from 33rd come -- could you go to the charter school? >> you could enter the lottery but what this particular school applied for in its charter was for students in this district as well as failing schools and siblings. the traffic keep families together, they try to serve the community. but all of this is dictated by law. >> did you change your mind about anything that you thought you believe before you got into this documentary? >> going into it, my commitment to all sides was very strong. and it is difficult to be so frustrated and closed out from one of those two sides.

i think my allegiance to the kids may become stronger and i don't think the union always has the kids best interest as art. >> there is one of the kids with his mother. we go inside and we go straight on the line. >> was cooperating? >> id means do what i say. gregory. >> my name is gregory. >> go over there and said. >> aiken branch it back to where it begins, 1983, right after it turned 16 years old.

my friends like to go when the stores and take stock. that would flash their money and show their new clothes and everything, and it just attracted me. we went from stealing to selling drugs. i was thinking that would become the kingpin guy, a guy with all the money that i would just fall out, but it never showed up. he never surface. it took me so long to realize that the decisions and choices

that i made coming up were the wrong thing. they were the wrong thing. and i do not regret it and the reason i do not regret it is that i have something and someone to give something to, before warn them, don't be like i was. >> where is he? in prison you had to go out there with him in the family and all? why would they let you win? >> we had to go through the office at albany, but we just had to go through the proper pathways and they helped us. . >> what impact did that particular session have on you? >> that was a very difficult

day. it was a long interview, about 2.5 hours. i have never been to a maximum security prison before. i knew his whole family and so it was very emotional -- an emotional day. >> is he married to the mother? >> yes. >> and how many children to the have? >> 1. they're going into kindergarten or first grade. >> the chart in scope -- the charter school gross revenues? >> this school is news so it has its first class of fifth graders this year. and it began in kindergarten and grows every year after that. it will go up to the eighth grade. >> i read this statistic, 1.1 million students with 50,000 in charter schools? >> that sounds about right.

while there are 200 charter schools. it may not be that high. >> this is the confrontation of the city council -- we will watch this, and did you ever see eva lose your cool? >> shias quite calm. she has been doing this for some time. >> she used the hold hearings questioning the union. >> she chaired the committee in which he testifies and the phone. >> a lot of people say that she runs to run for mayor. >> that is what i hear. >> of return to my colleague of the bronx. >> thank you, mr. chair. do you in your testimony -- you said that we both live in harlem. for the record, do you live in

harlem? >> i grew upon column and i live in harlem. >> you live in harlem currently. >> i do. >> could you share with us history? >> i have three young children so i would prefer not to. are you questioning that i am telling the truth? >> yes. i am. i am going to go into the next question. >> let me just say -- >> i would be happy to make you aware of where i live. >> one second, please. one second. i know for a fact that he lives in harlem, but clearly i represent part of harlem and i live in washington heights. >> i am not questioning you. >> i understand. go ahead. >> for statement about the school's deserving to be shut down. i think you represent to me the one thing that i have a great deal of concern about charter

schools -- you come in here and you say that they deserve to be closed down, and then we -- those of us that remain in this body -- have to navigate the consequent that comes out of the arrogance that comes when you make a statement like that. >> i appreciate that, and if i come off as arrogant, then i apologize, but i like an opportunity to explain what i think you are mistaken. i don't think it is very get to actually think -- it is my own personal experience with the district's five schools. i went to them as a child. i had to figure out what to do as a mother. it is my experience of the pain of wanting your kids to get up a nominal education and being told is that zone school or nothing. that is what you are assigned to

and you better like it or you are done. and i think that is the experience of the parent -- you bring these kids into this world, it is your obligation to do right by them. >> her background. how much education does she have were smart >> i believe she got her ph.d. in history at vanderbilt where she taught. >> she taught college for a while. and i ask this because you left it hanging, does she really live in harlem for some margin zero, absolutely. >> and she was raised in harlem. >> yes. >> almost everyone can see that there predominately african- american there. >> she grew up in harlem and she went to district 5 schools. her parents, when she came home every night, would tutor her.

and she noticed her classmates falling further and further behind. and that sort of inequity fuels for now. >> how much does money have to do with all of this? i saw a story in the "new york daily news" which says, she makes no secret -- >> are they aware that much money that she is making? >> is no secret. they call them charter operators and they are making pretty good salaries. i think those organizations feel

that it is a worthwhile use of money to have an effective leader. >> how much of the city council people get their money from the union to run for office? >> i think there is resentment about the sow or which is confusing because at the same time everyone wants teachers to get paid more. that is the philosophy that a lot of the charter schools respect. if we want great talent, we need to reward it. the teachers' union is the largest lobbyist. they spend the most dollars on lobbying than anyone else in new york city. you have to imagine that a fair number of city council members are tied financially to union donations. >> how long is this documented? >> a 80 minute. >> is available on the web?

do you have to wait for it to theaters? >> it is in theaters right now. we are in washington, d.c. this week and then we're opening in denver and palm springs, new york, and l.a. it will be available on tv -- on dvd starting in august. >> how many people work on this with you? >> i don't know the total number of people. we had a small group. we had about seven people shooting the film. now we're wearing of hats. >> did you ever edit yourself i don't always recommend that but it does someone reflect my doing. >> we want to go to another clip. here is the but rigid eva talking about educating kids no matter the circumstances that come from.

>> we have families in very challenging circumstances and we do our best to support them. but the main thing to do is educate the children, no matter what the circumstances. you still have to learn to read and write. we provide that in schools. we need to -- need to make focuses easy as possible for the child. can children be distracted and do they have trauma and their lives? absolutely, but we cannot change the hand that the child was killed or that we have been dealt as a school to get that child. and we get emotionally attached to that child and it is our job to educate that kid, no matter what. >> but not. button up.

we will put that on. come here. >> barack obama has those shiny shoes. >> does it? did you see him have those on? >> are you going to work? >> i am. barack obama. >> why you think that? you look a little bit like him and that's it. -- in that suit. >> that part of the is a side note, but what is the connection between this young fellow and barack obama? >> i think it's obama's presence in the film and in harlem his understated until that moment. it is very important.

for these kids, to see his picture in the classroom and have the calendar in their apartments. gregg jr. would dress up like him sometimes in go to school and work around the apartment. >> and what is barack obama's position on charter schools? >> he is pro-school choice. his race to the top fund is a really historic stance on the need for more options for parents, and that includes charter schools. he is very positive in that regard. >> we will not show the very end because they give away what happens in the lottery itself. what is the procedure? we've got the official. what is the procedure about finding out whether you are chosen? jayden is a random, computerized

process. but they ask that the parents go in order to show their support. they say to the parents in information sessions, we think it is important for you to be fair to prove to people that you want something better, because your voice is important. how would that no i did that this was happening. >> it is already happened. here is a minute of the video near the and, not to be interpreted as who the winner is and not. >> you have to check to see it to find out. ♪ >> he then call your name out.

>> is that your friend? is that your friend? ♪ >> for those of you waiting, there is one more school to come so keep hope alive! >> what happens if you do not when? >> it depends on the family. most of the families do not have the money to send their kids to private schools or move to a higher performing districts.

many of them are really forced to send their kids to the district's schools. one of the families applied to it 20 charter schools. they are placing their bets, which they did not have to do. >> what is the hardest part of doing a documentary like this? >> the whole thing. i think that there is a serious responsibility that i have not had before, to tell someone else's story. and i did not show any that families the film until it was completely finished, and they were the ones that i cared about. and we showed some very difficult moments in their lives and relationships. cheated anyone get mad?