you are increasing attention to monitoring trends in immigration because of who is taking the new jobs. charity and in deed, and with the difficulties with that in recent years, the inadequate data that we have on it may well be that many of my career employees to come into the u.k. are no longer working here. it is very hard to judge. we have been genuinely surprised by how you could the response to employment and unemployment has been herded in

the united states, employment and unemployment has responded much more i do not think it is easy to find explanations which are compelling. i think it is something we want to look at very carefully. this will lead to increases in employment during >> next, a a discussion on u.s. relations in iraq. then q&a with greg parker. >> the c-span network provides politics, public affairs, nonfiction books and it is all available to you on television, radio, online and on social media networking sites. find our content any time through c-span video libraries. we take c-span on the road with our local content video. it is washington, your way.

the c-span network, now available in more than 100 million homes, provided by cable. >> now, the changing relationship between the u.s. and iraq. the water from the decker terry secretary of state. the center for strategic and international studies post this event. this is 55 minutes. what's good morning, ladies and gentleman. i and the double winner this morning. president asked me to stand here and i am happy to do so for three different reasons. the first is i am a member of the board of csis so i'm honored to be able to participate in

these activities. the second as i was in on the take off as it were on this iraq situation so i want to see how the flight is ing and how the landing is going to be. the third of all, i am pleased to be here as i can stand alongside and in front of you and acknowledge we have appearing before us to offer most experienced, able and gifted public servants. who would miss an opportunity to be with our two deputy secretaries of state jacks-- jack subdied and jim steinberg. in it he announced that as he had said during his campaign, that he was going to wind up the military mission in iraq and he is as good as his word on 31 august, we are going to change our mission from one led by soldiers and servicemembers to one that by diplomats. we have got a new team in iraq

with ambassador jim jefferies who is no stranger to iraq, returning after serving in turkey and we have got general lloyd austin who will be commander of our remaining military forces. this morning we are going to hear first of all from deputy secretary steinberg who will discuss the strategy and policy that directs our new efforts in iraq and following that from secretary jack lou who will discuss how we are actually going to implement this on the ground. i particularly want to note with gratitude secretary lew's presence here. as you are awe he is going back to the future assuming the advice and consent of the u.s. senate to be the director of omb. iss citizen very much appreciate thfact you are willing to suit up again. it is not a pleasant task and i think we are much the better for having you in this position so jim if i could ask you to step up and then followed by jack.

>> thanks rich for the kind words and it is very good to be here with you and steve. i don't think it will escape anybody's attention that it took two of us to fill riches formidable shoes so you know what a great public servant he is ben and i have done it that it from his advice and counsel both in previous administrations and this administration and in the times we have those been out of government. i am really pleased to be with him today and enormous contribution he has made for our national security. it is a good opportunity to have the chance to talk to and following the president's remarks in which he talked about at the dav because this is an important moment in our evolving relationship with iraq and our engagement in iraq and it is also a good time to reflect on both where we have come from and where we are going and his rs that i will talk broadly about the overall strategy and jack, who's been in iraq, just came back a few days ago will give

you a report from on the ground. as we think about this new stage with august 31 coming up in the end of the combat mission i think it is useful to reflect on the goals the president set out when he took office 18 months ago and how far we have come in terms of implementing and achieving those goals. it was on thurbert 27th at camp lejeune in 2009 the president laid out his strategy for iraq and i'm going to take the liberty of quoting him at a little bit at link. it never hurts to kohl the resident. in that speech he said our strategy is grounded in a clear and achievable goal shared by the iraqi people and the american people. ..

for 30 major al qaeda rther of a significant improvement in iraqi security. so the end of this month will represent the achievement of that full transition to an iraqi security lead. at the same time we've seen a dramatic political evolution in iraq as well. since january, 2009, the iraq people have demonstrated the vitality and sturdy as of their commitment to democracy and especially the two important elections house during that period, january, 2009 elections and the national elections of march, 2010. participation in the national elections exceeded 60% and iraq's political process proved it can handle the difficult question of challenges o pose using a legitimate and fall based challenge. we are vey impressed and applaud the way the election was conducted the way the results were reached and the way the iraqi leader's work to reach

agreement on the shade of an inclusive representative government to which they are committed. we all recognize this process is a bit messy and we are eager to have support of the iraqi leaders to find and implement a successful government. let's recognize have east peace talks continue this is taking place through dialogue discourse, debated discussion rather than turning outside the process and turning to intimidation and violence. and equally important as this government formation process takes place the caretaker government is successful at implementing and carrying out the response of the piece of government by attacking security and delivering services and its important work that will continue. so they are forming a government in the context of the countries on constitutional order. and something we would like to see if forward as quickly as possible because there are urgent matters that need to be attended to and cearly the ability to address some of the more difficult challenges that

iraq faces, the difficult political challenges will be enhanced by the formation of the new government. it's true again there still remain forces in iraq and are trying to undo the progress that's been demonstrated over the last 18 months. it's also true the completion of the government for nation will strengthen the ability to take on those forces as well as to make it possible for iraq to strengthen its relationship with its neighbors. we also look forward to working with iraqi says the move forward on the other issues of our attention ranging from the hydrocarbon of law and the need of returning displaced persons to the resolution of disputed internal boundaries and the delivery of key services. so these are all chalnges in front of us. but what is also portant to recognize is the united states commitment will continue as iraq takes these on. as i mentioned the strategic framework is our god for the united states and next phase relationship the partnership we

have is being transformed. it's important to recall the work with the ssa areas of cooperation from political diplomatic security, cultural, economic and energy, environment, information technology and communications with lawrence wasdennd judicial cooperation also provides by have lawful coordinated shared on our side by the secretary of state and the iraqi prime minister. it's also important see our continued come of that on this transition in iraq in terms of our enduring commitment both to iraq and the broad region. building the strong civilian partnership with a sovereign independent nation of iraq consistent with our principles of respect, mutual interest and mutual responsibility and our commitment to iraq and the region is strong lasting. we will of course continue to enga the policy and as our military in iraq will te the

necessary steps to ensure on an ongoing basis security engagement in the region but will be strong and capable and able to support the stability of the region and the security of our friends and partners as well as protecting our own national interest. this is an important set of work ahead i think we looked at the last 18 months for satisfaction and appreciation particularly efforts afire iraqi partners. >> thank you, jim. >> thank you, jim for that kind introduction. these have been busy weeks and there was a thought maybe a week in iraq that this was not the best time for it but frankly we decided it was so important to get this right as we move through this transition that notwithstanding the fact there were many demands from the time here in washington we kept the trip and had a productive week

in iraq and as the president said on monday just over three weeks we are reducing our trip to 50,000. the beginning of the transition to the civilian led by level relationships with iraq. often the goal was the transition to pull iraqi responsibility to will a long-lasting relationship with the iraqi people and the iraqi government and support iraq's reintegration into the region. the strategy being implemented on the two tracks. the first is an internal transition a roane mission in iraq from the military to civilian life operation and the second is the transformation of our bilateral relationship from one that is dominated or has been dominated by security there was a long-term political economic and cultural partnership which as jim said is based on the strategic framework agreement. these changes are occurring to the backdrop of iraq's

transition and leadership following the parliamentary elections and while they are forming their own government the partnership between our civilian aders and military counterparts both on the ground in iraq and here in washington has never been stronger, and we are working closely together to ensure successful transition to civilian lead in iraq. we are committed to working togeer with the people of iraq as jim said to create an iraq that is sovereign, stable and self-reliant and of course for stability in the region. we've worked closely with our embassy in baghdad, colleagues of the pentagon across other units and agencies to come up with a plan, the strategy that needs and response to the needs of the iraqi people and our own interest. while jim has been taking an active role in the formation of our diplomatic policy, i focus heavily on developing the program to make sure we have the funding, the resources, the people needed to implement our

policy and ensure that we have an effective way to use those resources on the ground. since 2009, they're have been more than a dozen trips to iraq by senior officials including the president, vice president from 63 clinton, jim and myself. they underscored the importance we played in getting this transition might. going forward, ver strategy will focus on ways to make a difference in iraq not just by supporting the growing capabilities of iraq security forces, but by helping to build stronger institutions of the national level local level assisting the iraqis with shaving fair and durable agreements on thedivisive issues, strengthening the police, law and administration of justice, combatingcorruption and promoting the efficient delivery of the basic government services. during the trip i just came back from we have intensive consultations where we went through in great detail all the planning that's been done over the last 18 months because we are really now at the moment of shifting from planning to

execution this transition from military to civilian programs. as the president noted, we are in the middle of this process and are extremely -- extraordinarily capable team of the ground has been working nonstop to ensure a smooth transition. many members of our team and our terms of great confidence we really have a first grade team in baghdad and in all of the places where we are going to have an enduring presence to be sure the challenges remain we are working closely with the military, our own mother terrie and the government of iraq to meet the transition deadlines. the trip provided me with chances to talk of links with our teams in both baghdad and many of the prt is outside of capital and we basra and observed the prt observations, the work of the police training program, the activities of the department of justice major crimes task force and had extensive conversation with general odierno and the other senior military leaderships in

iraq. i also have the opportunity with admiral mullen said he and i were able to -- while we were there to actually compare notes on how the transition is going and what we need to do as we get into the final stage before execution. let me startith one conclusion that i hope you all will take away from the session today. the u.s. government and specifically the department of state has put enormous effort and to plan a successful transition. we've been laying the foundaon for this new phase in our partnership with iraq well over a year now and we are prepared for a smooth handoff when the military drawdown is complete. civilians from across the u.s. government have been working alongside the military counterparts for five years now. the steady progress in building and ricky capacity along with extraordinary sacrifices of the troops has allowed us to begin a new phase in the relationship with iraq. here in washington we've shifted our work to focus on the poly of the transition. we have developed extensive set of plans and continue to revise

them to meet the changing situations. we identified urgent needs likely challenge as a multiple opportunities and turned out the key decision points as we can. but it's not an easy task and iraq will remain as difficult sometimes dangerous environment in which to work. but the state department as well prepared and we are now at the point of shifting from the planning and execution. let me make a few points just about the details. first, iraq's prosperity and security is important to the iraqi people but also the united states. we will continue to play a major role in trying to shape the development with little moving over time to a more normal and bilateral relationship. this transition represents a bridge towards that goal. second, the focus of the skill of the transition is virtually unprecedented. while everything that we will be doing we have done in other places we are doing it in a different way and a different intensity had more difficult environment than ever before. many of the lines of operation for which th state department

was a responsibility began with the military. the state department cannot and will not duplicate these operations on a one-for-one basis. president obama noted that the united states government commitment in iraq is changing from a co-op our civilian programs will be different from the programs and designed to meet the needs of today and tomorrow. for example, the bush training program and the department of defense included contributions from thousands of military personnel. the military led program center of training and development of entry-level police service officers throughout the country. as we transition and we've begun doing something quite different. its higher levels engagement at shift to the trained model. moving forward or programs what of the more integrated approach to the training not only of police but forensic investigators, prosecutors, judges and corrections officers.

this comprehensive strategy is designed to ensure we will make strategic investment to imprve the overall administration of justice thereby strengthening the law. third, making a qualitative difference means we must continue to have the best people possible in place. i was struck by livestock and mosul by the way our people their act as a force multiplier. enabling the united states to use every instrument of the national power effectively. our relative inexperience of the leaves are working on the tough issues that complicate how long that interest communal fault line. the department senior leadership is devoted a lot of time and energy to make sure we have the right people in the key positions and we will continue to do so. finally, must recognize the upcoming transition of the relationship with iraq is not without financial cost. is it difficult to fulfil the many security related responsibilities handled by the military however or how the officers continue to develop responsible creative ways to keep out people and facilities

secure within the resources that are available for the civilian missions. understand the need for the fiscal responsibilities and we will look forward to working with the government of iraq for financial support as it develops the necessary infrastructure and implement the economic reforms to become self sustaining. to this end, was recognized the importance of the united states buding the bridge to iraqi stability and self-reliance and is funded as to build a strong presence outside baghdad and a number of major centers. let me close by framing what is at stake in this transition. for most of its modern history, iraq has been aligned with a reference to race. the threat to our friends and interest in the middle east and a destabilizing force in the region. we have a historic opportunity to help iraq emerge as a strategic part of the united states and a force for stability and moderation in a troubled region. given the great threat we face from iran, al qaeda and other state and mom state actors of

the middle east, we can't afford to let the games that we've sacrificed so much for in iraq oxalate before they re cemented. to be sure there is considerable risk associated with transitioning to a civilian lead period however our civilian presence is crucial to how our iraqi partners develop a secure and self-reliant country. >> thank you. our distinguished guests have agreed toake some questions from the audience. my friend is going to moderate this. would you direct your question to either of our press secretaries and in the kit you would like to see answer or both. i promised they would be out at 11:30 and unlike many of us they have real jobs. study 11:3we will put the hammer down. steve? >> thank you, rich and the deputies to the what they say a word of welcome did he who tried this month. we have 30 minutes for questions, ladies and gentlemen. we have peop in the room with roving microphones we would ask

you to identify yourself and affiliation, please call and right there in the front row, second row, third row on the left and then -- >> [inaudible] japanese tv station. let me ask you about iroshima japan, please because tomorrow is a day for after the got the public a bomb 65 years ago. omorrow the ambassador is going to the ceremony and people are not expecting the president well follow what he comes to japan next november, this november. do you think it is likely or unlikely to happen? thank you. >> as she noted the ambassador will be there and i think it is particularly important in light of the commitment president obama s made to work on the

long-term vision of weapons. it's a change to reinforce our strong commitment to that vision and taking steps we can in the near term to reduce the role of the numbers and weapons as we've seen by the agreement, very important agreement we reached with russia as well as the other steps taken. but i wouldn't care to speculate on what the plans are. >> thank you. i am an independent journalist. for five years i was the united nations spokesman in iraq until last may and i can tell you that the country suffers many injustices that perhaps one of the starkest i want to ask you, sir, what your administration is doing to pick up from chapter 7. i can add that my former boss is ready to the security council said that iraq knows exactly what it needs to do.

i did to differ. i think iraq needs to be taken out from that in justice. >> one of the priorities to the government has stressed to us and which we share a record a chance to partner taking its normal place and its rightful place in the international community that is an important part and we've taken a number of steps already to move forward. there are a number of different kind of chapter seven resolutions relating ranging from resolutions involving the wmd program to the measures involving food and the like as well as the continued dispute and a final resolution of the question of the external borders and we've taken this as a priority of ambassador royce and those of us in washington that coupled closely with the pri minister and foreign minister and others to move forward on these issues and we've made real progress particularly with respect to the weapons of mass destruction resolution iraq's strong commitment as evidenced

by its commitment to the implementation of the additional protocol to the npt which is an important step in that. there are some steps that iraq continues to need to take. there are some issues that could wind up the final contracts. some of those contracts are held by companies and member states and those are in the process of being negotiated. but i am encouraged by the steps that have been taken. we share the snse of that the iraqi government places on this, and we are working step by step to deal with each of those resolutions through the security council. >> yes, the gentleman on the fourth row. >> from the financial times i would like to ask the secretary if they could on secretary lu's earmarks of strategic importance of iraq when he talked about it

as a force of stability and moderation in the region. given that it's sometimes harder to understand or to summrize u.s. foreign policy to iraq than the dual containment of iraq and iran for example could you spell out a bit more for example does the u.s. expect iraq to remain a strong military ally? is its model of democracy something other regions should follow? do you expect the will to be a moderation in the israeli-palestinian dispute? it would be interestinif you could spot some of that in the region means and what longer term strategy for the -- >> i think the decisions about iraq's future will be made by the iraqi people themselves. but we have a lot of confidence that the emerging space plural society and iraq is likely to be a force for moderation to get in fact this is an open society which there can be political discourse and the date that

contributes to the environment which we think will be a productive one. we are not going to be in the position to dictate that or dictate the choice is that the iraqi people make. but if they see a strong friendship with the united states and strong commitment with the united states in the civilian the relationship to help strengthen iraqi economy to build its human capacity to work on issues like education and health and environment with them than we think that will be the strong basis for the partnership going forward and that is part of the reason why we are investing so much in this relationship. so i think this is -- we are deeply committed to iraq's sovereignty and inependence. this is going to be a country that will ke its own choices. what we believe that the project that we have engaged in together will contribute to a very positive development in the region that shows that the united states can develop strong relationships with confidence in depeent societies which will at least be a very positive model others can look to and see

the benefits of the iraqi people will be reading from this new political opportunity to ban. >> it's a model for everyone. i don't it is just for the region. we think the societies are modeled whether it is in the middle east for the call for other parts of the world as well. i think this is something we obviously saw you especially our partnerships with other open space societies and i see that shows whether it's in the middle east or east asia or southeast asia or any other part of the world that the benefits of having these kind open systems to use concrete benefits for the people irrespective of the historical drama geography etc. >> psychiatry lu? >> i think it's clear that progress is made in iraq but by the iraqi people will be he key to iraq being the force for stability in the region and o travel in iraq is just striking

how important it is just to have the stability there. you travel from the north and you can see turkey and travel to the south you can see iran and kuwait. it's a key region of the world. we are having an island that is stable makes all the difference and i think we take it one step at a time of the fact that iraq is working hard on building these institutions internally is something that is both important for itself and as an object lesson in a region. spec if i could interject on this theme of the region both deputies what role will the members of the former iraq coalition plans and coordinating assistance with is asymmetric to coordinate on some of the countries in their assistance to iraq with the u.s. will be doing and what about states in the region? >> i think the work we are doing

and continue to do in this consultation with with allies is iraq to get the lead for itself and the partnership with the government of iraq and the people of iraq, and i think that, you know, the challenge of -- the financial challenges one that we are bearing a great deal of responsibility for right now. so, it would obviously be deal to have the ability to share a lot of the responsibility with others. but as we plan our efforts we are planning bilateral programs where the assistance we provide in the training administration of jusce is designed with the government of iraq to meet the need -- >> would it be coordinated with others through aive in the development -- >> just to build on jack's point, in the past, we have had

formal structures of external coordination, but again, once we move to an iraqi lead system, i think that's where we want to see kratovil and having an outside group that is developing the programs we want to deep lob the capacity of the iraqi to do this and then we can work with the other partners. they are much more traditional mckenna's sums -- mechanisms to do this and provide coordinating mechanism is there but i think the kind of externals funds of iraq type of structures that existed in the past probably are less well suited to the situation where iraq has taken the lead in finding its own need to work with the partners to coordinate because so much as we think about the program when forward this is not a traditional system this is capacity building, this is working so we will be working with partners who will contribute concretely in the various areas where iraq itself is developing the ministries and the kind of capacity in the

areas of the strategic framework has identified. but individual partners in each of those areas. >> there's a question all the way in the back by one of those cameras there. >> thank you. josh wrote in. gentlemen, thank you for taking the time today and for your service. my question is for deputy secretary. as of 24 hours the military mission will end, the largest in the world will continue. as to prepare the next budget for 2012 in your capacity as deputy secretary state not in your capacity as the nominee for the director of the omb, do you believe that these recurring predictable cost a country where as the 2012 u.s. troops will be deployed and should be paid for on budget or to continue to be paid for three emergency off budget funding? >> i think the request we made this year that was largely funded last week and a supplemental appropriation reflects the approach we've been

taking and i think we will continue to take. we need to fund the mission and the sources needed and be clear about the fact there are extraordinary costs, security costs, facility costs are unlike the costs of almost any other place. and we requested the funding for the program we think we need to be effective. the future will be different in the sense that once we have constructed facilities we then have to run the program. so the budget we have already proposed was very heavy on the capitol requirements to build buildings, hardcover, require vehicles and proper security features. going forward we will have a full year of programs we have to support and we have been very clear in all of our communications between the state department and congress that the request we made for this year reflects just a quater of the year program, so there will be

substantial increases in the operating program costs when forward. i think the response of congress and the appropriation while it funded a very substantial program also reflected the fact there will be of limited resources. we have been as careful as you can be to construct programs but frankly we cannot stand civilians in places like mosul without recognizing the security requirements that are there. so if they don't go with the security features that are necessary, they can't operate and they cannot be fixed. so at some level, the question is do you undertake the mission or don't you wonder to commission, and i think we got approval for quite a large mansion. it may not be as large as the mission we might have ideally had if we had full funding. but wherever we go will go robtly prepared to have the kind ofintellectual involvement that is necessary to be effective. ..

i think that the question of mechanism is one that is frankly secondary. once one defines the need and a commitment to meet the needs there is a variety of ways to do it from a programmatic respective. the critical thing is to be accurate and in finding any, to refine them as you go through and if there increases because of an unusual ssion to confront those i meet them and

then to fund it and not to take on a bigger mission then you have the funding to do effectively but to take on a mission with all of the resources to make it so people can be safe and effective. >> the gentleman midway down the ramp in the midd aisle here on the right side. >> charlie wiln was cbs. can either of you gentlemen take on t question of iran's role as we have downsized militarily and increasing the civilian import what role has iran played and what role doou anticipate it will play after we have gone to where the president has gone? >> tnks charlie. charlie. when jack and admiral mullen were in iraq a few days ago he was asked about this and i think he captured it pretty well. we have seen in the past occasions where iran has played an unhelpful andangerous role in supporting violence and

antigovernment activities. we remain very mindful and watchful about the possibility that might be continuing. admiral ullen pointed out he does not believe right now but that is having a significant effectbut it is something we'll does he want to watch very carefully. more broadly i would say we would expect iran to play the same kind of role thatll of the other neighbors play which is to be respectful of an independent sovereign iraq in which the iraqi people make their own decisions about their future and receive the positive support and encouragement of its neighbors and that i think is the posture that we are encouraging all the other neighbors to play and i think most of them strongly support that. we have seen a growing willingness of many particularly of iraq's neighbor as well as turkey to be friends of the process and to encourage the very positive developments going forward to create greater international engagement f iraq and we would expect iran to meet the same standards.

[inaudible] >> i think we will just leave it at expect. >> in the second row. right here. why don't we take the lady right on the indent. >> thank you tricare india and what the "washington post." i wonder if you could talk about the numbers up increased personnel in raq, how many u.s. government employees compared to what you have now, how many contractors compared to what you have now? and going back to the budget question if you could look at not the 2012 budget at the 2011 budget where your own appropriators everard indicated they are not going to give you the money love fest for. what changes have been made in the program in response to that? >> we are working thugh the exact numbers of civilians in support or is now for the civiliansut we are all risley moving from 100,000 plus military to much smaller numbers

and civilians. we are going to see increases in measure in their hundreds to thousands, not hundreds of thousands. we are refining the plan. our goal is to put the right number of people that we need to get he mission done that frankly no more than we need because this is very expensive. each person we bring out has a significant amount of associated costs in terms of security personnel, life-support personnel and the like. you know the 2011 is still a work in ogress so i think it is premature to respond to one or another. i think the supplemental appropriations was something that was a final decision, decision they did not fully fund their request and we are working to refine our proposal, our program to work within the envelope of funding provided. i think that it will have implications in terms of the scope of reach of our police

training program. we have been refining it to the in the most population intensive location where there is the highest impact. that means there will be other places that we don't have a police training capaci. that doesn't mean we won't be able to reach people in those ars. we are coming up with other ways to have people come and to us for training. anyone who has done police training in difficult environments knows that it is much better to be out in the field mentoring, working one-on-one them to do classroom training so we are going to have a mix of approaches where we have the reources to be in those population intensive areas. we will get out and where we don't have the resources we will bring people in. in terms of the number of places where we have diplomatic presence after the drawdown, we had originally planned something that was slightly larger.

we may have to shrink it by-- i think these are important decisions but i'm going to go back to something i said a few minutes ago. we can spread ourselveso thin that we don't have the capacity to do their jobs in the places where we put people. itakes a certain amount to get either a consulate or what we are calling an embassy branch office up and running. if we don't put people in a place where they have mobility, where they can go out and be with people and implement their programs, there is very little argument for being in the place we send them so each of the places that we go we will have the complemented resources necessary to operate effectively. i think one can always make the case that it would be better to have a broader presence in the in more places. i am very comfortable that what we are doing now is designed to meet the high strategic needs with a program that is well-crafted to have a very high probability of being effective in a very difficult environment.

there will be many surprises along the way. when one comes back after a week of travel like i had last week it is very sobering to think about the environment after the drawdown of u.s. military, but actually left with a kind of hopefulness as well that a relationship with the iraqi security forces is improving daily. our need and their ability depends on a partnership to provide some of the support that we have gotten in the past from the u.s. military have to be even greater in the future. that is all part of having a more normal bilateral relationship with a sovereign state that has the capacity. while i won't say that i'm happy we got less funding than we asked for and i won't say it will be exactly the same program it would have been had we been fully funded i'm quite confident we have put together a program that will meet the needs of these missions.

>> the lady in the middle row, in the middle of a fourth aisle there. >> thank you. mindy reiser with the united nations association or the national capitol area. in terms of priorities, education would be-- seemed to be ready critical. you know certainly some professionals have left iraq and that numbers of physicians and teachers and sciences have really diminish so in terms of your guidance to a.i.d. and your work with the world bank and other multilateral governors, how are you prioritizing needs? there is also the issue of women in a variety of contexts and pressures on them. obviously iraq is a sovereign state and has its own traditions but i wonder in terms of embassies, capacity building, assistance by ngo's what you might do as a friendly support to make sure that some of the issues of women place and

possibilities are not bypassed or diminish? >> you know i think that there are many things we could do ver usefully in iraq over the coming years. we have taken the view that we need to tackle the most strategic challenges and do those things well. the reason i have been talking as much as i have been about lee's training and administration of justice is those are considered to be the things that we have to achieve in order for all of the other things we end the iraq people hope for to have the kind of future that we look ahead to. we will also be doing more traditional development work. we have a substantial development program in iraq. we look forward to maintaining it to this period of time and it will have an emphasis on economic development. it will have an emphasis on focusing on the role of women in the treatment of women. but i think we have to be careful about suggesting that we have the capacity to change

everything that needs to be changed in iraq over a period of 10 or 20 years and a three to five year transition period wearer cool is that the endof it after the u.s. military withdrawal is complete is to have a bridge to a more normal bilateral relationship between our two countries. there will be much to do in iraq at the end of the three to five years. if we are ccessful in building this route so we can reduce our presence in an orderly way to a more normal level of diplomatic presence in the iraqi government will have the capacity to take over and maintain programs and generate its own programs for the future, at the same time while developing the economic resources of iraq through the infrastructure and work to take advantage ofhe oil resources in iraq, that is the key to the three to five year period being successful. i thi we have to be careful not to define the goal as having at the end of this five years although the issues that will

take decades of work. >> maybe it is my parochial interest in the former educator myself but one of the areas of the strategic framework and education cooperation and i think there are some things we are doing on a government to government basis. there are a number of things we are doing there but equally important we are facilitating exchange between iraqi universities and i-- both academics to the united states and the americans to iraq. there was a fairly vibrant capacity they are. it was degraded over time but there is a lot of interest in the academic sector here, specially obviously in a place where we have been able to organize the best but in the context of the coordinating committees on education we are facilitating a lot of this dialogue which can then help define from an iraqi point of view what they are priorities and needs are and think about

government to government but also on a private sector base is how we that capacity. >> there is a question here in the middle, the lady in the fourth row. >> thank you. my question is for jam. you express for station at the inability of iraq to form a government. you don't want to seem interfering in iraqi politics. some believe that the measure, one of the obstacles is prime minister nouri al-maliki. do you think there is an obstacle in forming a government and do you endorse a coalition without him? >> frustration is your work, not mine and that is not our review. i think we are understanding of the complexities. indeed the very reason this is difficult is precisely because of the successful must of the political process th has taken place.

iraqis voted, they participated and supported a broad range of interest and they are trying to find a way to have those interests and the fact tha it takes so long as the reflection of the fact that there seems to be a very broad consensus within iraq that there needs to be an inclusive resolution here, that there's not going to be one or two parties that book off with the price prize and run the risk of polarizing society again. so we obviously would like to see this have an sooner rather than later and i think he iraqi people would rather see it happen sooner rather than later. we wanted to come out of a political dialogue so we don't take decisions. it is for the iraqi political sources for themselves to determine. we don't have a candidate there something we oppose. we think from a u.s. perspective which we think is in the iraqi perspective is that this be as inclusive as possible so everybody comes away from the stealing their voice will be heard as part of the government

going forward and we don't see the kind of polarization that's it place in iraq's past and we are obviously deeply engage. we have had a lot of discussions with the parties who want to understand the issues. we are happy to make suggestions when they can be perceived as helpful but we understand the priority that the iraqi's themselves play place on not having this done through outside interference o coercion or any other efforts, so we remain quite, i think respectful of that goal while obviously stressing to everyone that if we can get on with this, there is a lot of business that needs to be done. there is a lot of good work in done by the caretaker government. the forward looking issues like hitting a new hydrocarbons law quiresthe court to reconvene and do business so there are thin that can be done until there is a n government that is why other things equal we would like to see this happen as soon as the iraqi's can make it happen. >> i think we have time for one last question. there is a question here in the

middle and about the fifth row on the ends. yes sir, that gentleman. >> .com independent energy consultant. myuestion, i think it has been answered but let me rephrase it. it has to do with the hydrocarn law. does the state department expect that the hydrocarbon law will be completed before the end of the three to five year period and if so, what are the obstacles to its being completed? is that the division of revenues between the central government and the provinces? could you elaborate a little bit on that? >> you know i think you correctly point out that the hydrocarbon law is shorthand for brady of measures that are connecteto each other. some of them have to do with revenue-sharing issues and some of it has to do with the status of the state energy sector as opposed to the role of the private sector and all othese things need to get sorted out. clearly it is an important piec

these related pieces need to be worked out and although we obviously would have liked to have seen it done in the past session we understand that given the eminence of the natiol elections it was likely that that needed to happen first. the good news as you know well is that the evolution of the energy your has moved forward and a lot of important respects and we have had some very successful options of energy resources. we have been seeing the energy companies coming in and beginning to do work and so i ink there is a lot of good to be seen there. we have had some understandings between the kurdish regional government and the national government to allow work to go forward on the kurdish resources without even before the full resolution of the hydrocarbon law and the revenue-sharing, but it will be, the long-term future does require a strong legal framework. it also worked wires a better engagement by the iraqi

government on the infrastructure related issues that are necessary for energy development. you can just go in and drill. drill. you have to have water coming out of electricity so there are a bunch of infrastructure related issues that are rtially connected to that of urban law but also need to be done separately which also require the encasement of a new government so this is an important priority. there is a huge difference for iraq's future clearly in resources and law for iraqi's part of this is critical to move forward and we look forward to working with the new government on that. >> if. >> if i could underscore the last point jim was making which is the real limitation is the infrastructure limitations. it ihaving the pipeline capaty to shift and get it to market. that is ultimately something that takes governmental involvement, policy decisions being made and it has a relatively long glebe time compared to drilling an individual well. we are very focused on the calendar because it is very important at iraq as a country with substance financial

resources have the ability to provide for its own needs as quickly as possible. it is not a country that will forever need our support, and having that transition well planned and well understood this very important because it gives us the ability to see how we can have a gradual reduction in the need for u.s. support and concomitant increase in iraqi self-sustained myths of the issues are very important and they do require policy judgment. >> are two guests have shown us and i was regarded by spending too much time with us and i would like to request we show them the same regard by first of all remaining seated while they exit but more importantly also to express appreciation for the time they have spent with us. [applause]

>> i want to thank all three deputies for joining us this morning and also to our sponsor. thanks to all of you for some good questions and maybe the closing word on this is let's hope we do a peaceful transition in iraq. thank you very much. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

>> next, a senate hearing on online privacy. then, at 7:00 a.m., your comments on washington journal. tonight, what to watch for in the emerging technology trends. industry insiders in washington on cyber security, web accessible to for the disabled and how young people use the web on the communicators on c-span to. >> over the next few weeks, follow but tv in prime time through the tonight, what members are reading this summer. senator richard durbin is reading about the battle of britain in "with wings like eagles."

also "too big to fail." that is both tv in prime time. >> chairman john leibowitz described what their organizations are doing to ensure consumer privacy in the internet age. they spoke about online privacy policies, the do not call lists and spam cases. this hearing is three hours. >> this hearing will come to order. some of this will be taken up by my opening statement for which i apologize. thank you very much for being here.

others are trying to juggle stuff, but they will be here. today, our committee is going to examine consumer privacy in an on-line world. there was a subcommittee hearing with respect to children, but this is actually the first time in committee history that we have had precisely this kind of large online privacy hearing. it is important to me. it is an issue that i am interested in and i know that my colleagues that share the subcommittee on communications are also. i think them for their work on this issue. imagine that you're in a shopping mall and while you are there, there is a machine recording every store that you enter and every product that you look at and every product that you buy. you go into a bookstore and the

machine records every book that you purchase and every bookkeeper ruse. then, you go to a drugstore. the machine is watching you there and recorded every product that you picked up from the sham " and the outlook -- the shampoo and the allergy medicine to your personal prescription. . .

>> thank you. >> people are obviously on their way back and i apologize for interrupting the secret protocol

of the senate commerce committee, because -- but there is a interesting witness in front of us. we run into this ino many areas, mortgage fraud, people call up and the company does not, and they go on paying. it is just everywhere. it is always allowed in given freedom by something called small print. i want to know from your point of view if you think it is a deceptive think inherently or in cases of specific uses and how on earth can you othe user tell the difference? >> i believe the commission has had small print issues going

back to even before the internet. it in the small print you have material terms, important terms to the consumers, or they are clicks away with the consumer cannot possibly find them, or a reasonable consumer cannot find them, they are inherently deceptive and unfair and we're going to go after people for doing tha and then thinking through the architecture of where we would like to see companies go, in our report we are thinking about a small box. we're not quite there yet, but the idea of a small box with the material terms in there that the consumers have to say is that it cannot get awayith burying things in the fine print >> how should be formatted? >> in a way that are reasonable consumer, someone on the

internet, a coal miner for west virginia who goes on the internet from time to time understands the meaning of that. >> isn't there. whenn't there a point people fail to physically read small print? >> there is a reason why in contracts, some contracts -- some clauses are buried in the fine print. this is not the practice of the best companies. we had one case involving a company that had acknowledged in its pleadings that it was responsible for 6 billion pop-up ads to consumers, 6 billion pop- up ads. and there was some sort of warning multiple clicks away, but i don't think a sine consumer consented to

downloading software that downloaded pop-up ads until we shut the company down. even senator dorgan could see, heade this sort of. about the unsubscribe notice at the bottom of the mess. one of the things we want to do is have this baked into the interactions that companies have with consumers and though what -- in a way that consumers can clearly understand it, and we hope the companies do it themselves. if they do not, we will work with you to craft legislation. >> when you ask large and successful companies who were riding the waves of success and popular demand to do something on a voluntary basis which they do not want to do, do they generally not do it? >> i think it is different critic different responses by

different companies. a lot of companies recognize that their brand is enhanced if they are not doing things that are not in a gray area. some companies, and you have to push and prod to get them to do the right thing, and then some companies just do not. we brought a major case against sears for data mining without giving consumers notice. they just didn't know -- they were taking it without the permission of consumers. it include a prescription drug information and other personal information. it depends, but having these hearings is enormously important in moving companies board into doing the right things. >> you referred to the humification/opt-out question and you seem to come out in favorf opt in.

>> the most important thing is clear notice to consumers. not everyone on the commission chairs where i am, it is probably a majority. i think ought to in a generally protect consumers -- often in generally protect consumers better than opt out in those circumstances. i do not think it undermines a company's ability to get information that it needs to advertise back to consumers. and the entire commission believes that if you're dling with sensitive information, for changing the privacy policy that has be off in -- opt in. >> if you wait for the opt out, then they have already been had.

>> speaking hypothetically, but if you -- if the company says i'm going to not share your information with any other companies or any of our up delays, and then they decide to change their policy, most consumers will not read that policy. why would they? you have to give them a clear way to opt into your new policy. with respect to sensitive information like medical records and banking records, the privacy level is so important because this is the kind of information you do not want circulating around on the internet. i think the whole commission agrees. that they should be a hot tin -- i think the whole commission agrees that they should be a opt in approach. >> selling information to third

parties it can use that information to create profiles for potential employers, is that fair? >> it would be sometng we would want to take a close look at. if your staff has any instances of policies like that, please send our way. >> people often say that parents should do it this and set their remote so that kids can now watch such and such on television, and all kinds of things. but secondly, the responsibility of the consumer -- that is the argument i heard last night at the dinner table. and i did not like it. people have the responsibility. they are entering into a situation. they note that it is a complex world. therefore they should take all of that very seriously. i think that is asking the impossible of the average user.

>> i agree with that. i will say this, most of the cases that we abroad, they had not given clear -- we are not at the level of get where every company even gives consumers clear notice that they can make clear choices. most of the cases we have broad involved instances where the disclosures or the use of the information was in the fine print that was designed to ensure that consume would not find it. the best companies want to make these things clear. i think that we need to ensure that other companies moved to at level. >> cake, chairman leibovitz. >> thank you, chairman rockefeller. >> our second panel is the vice-

president of software technology at apple. the chief technology officer of facebook. the privacy engineering lead at google. the director of informaon policy studies at the cato institute. the senior vice president of public policy, and privacy officer of at&t. and a professor from the annenberg school of communication who has been before us many times. if you confine your seats. and sure that they have plenty of water.

let me go in the order of the way it of the -- of the way that appears before me. ipple of apple. >> good afternoon, members of the committee. i am vice-president for software technology at apple. thank you for asking me to testify about our approach to a consumer privacy. apple shares are concerned about privacy and we are deeply committed to protecting the privacy of our customers. we're committed to providing our customers with clear choice over their information. for instance, as part of our

service, we provide our customer with esy to use tools to let them control the collection and use of location data on all devices. i would also point out that apple does not share our customers' prite debt or selling customers' private data to third parties for their marketing purposes. we have provided an explanation of our privacy practices in the written testimony. let me emphasize that you points about letting consumers control hot applications using collected data. in addition t a published privacy policy, it is very helpful to have privacy features actually built and designed into the devices and we would like to describe some of our innovative practices in this area. apple does not allow any

application to receive device location information without the user's permission. if an application was to use a device application, it must get the consumer's explicit -- explicit consent. the dialog box is mandatory and no one is permitted to override it. only after the user has app bezed it will be athe allowed to use location information. l's say that you're looking for restaurant. you load and happen but it needs to know where you are in order to help. before it receives any device location information, the software promise you that they would like to use your current

location. it presents two options. do not allow or ok. it will send an encrypted location data to apple to determine which restaurants are nearby. in this example, information about the devices actual location is onl transmitted to the third-party application after the consumer expressly consents. apple has built of master location service switched into r i o s global operating system which makes it extremely easy to opt-out in tally of location- based. our latest devices are not this playing an icon at the top of the screen near the battery

indicator. it reminds to the user that look passion -- location data is being shown to their application. they are also able to see a list of every project every application they are authorized to locate -- access their location information. you can see which have used your location information within the last 24 hours, and turn it off individually for each application. i should point out as well that not using these location services does not impact the use of the devices. with more than 3 billion applications down loaded, many people have perienced this process. we believe it is a simple and direct way to keep customers in control of their data. in closing, let me say again that apple is strongly committed

to giving our customers clear notice, a choice, and control over their information. we believe that our products do this in simple and elegant ways. we share the committee's concerns about the collection and misuse of all cusmer data, particularly location data, and appreciate the approach -- being able to talk about that this afternoon. >> excuse me, please. when you say they go up to a certain place and click and they are out, where is that place on their computer? is it at the top or the side? >> we have a setting menu where you set everything about your phone from how bright it is to including the location settings if you tap on location settings on that page, it immediately tasty to a page with a switch that says location serces, on, off.

>> where do they have to goo tap said that they can get that choice? >> yes, on your home page, there is an app called settings. >> it is at the bottom right? >> it is on your home page. their various -- there are various apps, one is called settings. that takes you to the place where location services can be turned on or off. it is possible, if you could send me a picture. >> i would be happy to show you. >> said it and i will pay the mail. >> i would be happy to do that. >> brett taylor, chief

technology officer. >> thank you very much. thank you other members of the committee. i am the chief technology offir of facebook. thank yofor the opportunity to testify today before the committee. facebook is a service that gives people the power to connect and share with one another. it establishes and strengthens relationships that strengthen our lives. we're proud to announce that more than 500 million people around the wld are actively using facebook. we also remind ourselves that the people who use face back lie at what the heart -- why part of what we did. first, facebook and other social networking technologies are sharing information and building commities. in just a few years, the internet has been transformed from a useful -- into a powerful

means of connecting with others in creating communities that better the lives of others. since the creation and a college dorm room, facebook has contributed to this transformation to a worldwide community spending over 180 companies. it has been an invaluable education tills, allowing people to connect for myriad purposes for critable purposes and in the political realm for grassroots organization and for local community building. when we reached 500 million users, b.s. people to share their experiences with the services. some of the stores are intimate and personal. one person, a mother in phoenix, credits her status message with her being diagnosed with breast cancer in order to treat the dease. she became an on-line prevention advocates. other stores have broad significance.

e 2008 presidential lesson has been called the facebook election.

to join the site, to use our tools, or engage in life. it is the people who use facebook that drive all our product decisions. recent changes provide examples. in my written testimony, i highlight for reasons. the privacy tool, contextual tool, one-click tool, and dad permissions. i'm happy to discuss any d all i want to highlight the important economic growth supported by the people who use facebook and the companies that innovate by building on the platform. the growing fatality of the incident makes facebook the experience possible for our users without them ever sharing identifiable information with advertisers. facebook is a u.s.-based company. 70% of yours are outside the night in states, more than 80% of the employees are located here -- 70% of a vusers are

outside the united states, but more than 80% of the employees are located here. there is an entire economy around the platform. 1 million applications are available on the platform. some are filled with businesses that employ hundreds of people and make hundreds of millions of dollars revenue. the new york times wrote an article about a leading games the lawful -- developer called zynga. it now has 400 job openings. the company has been valued at over $4.5 billion. another phase of developer was acquired by electronic artsfor $400 million in 2009. these are to the largest success stories in the facebook platform economy.

i want to emphasize the real power base lies with the individual to use this service to connect and share with their friends. we are proud of the service we provide. using innovative debilities, facebook will facilitate a more personalized and engaging experiee. i am gratefulfor the opportunity to be here. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you, mr. taylor. next on my list is mr. -- professor whitten. >> thank you. i devoted my career as an academic and as google's lead privacy engineer to one primary goal, making it intuitive, simple, and useful for internet users. this isthe central challenge of privacy engineering. be services on the internet constantly evolve.

viable news services change the way that we interact with each other and use information. these services, built in part from the information that providers learned from their users, offer the value. many are offered for free. they have been good for our economy. in 2009 alone, google of online advertising generated a total of $54 billion of economic activity for american businesses, website publishers, and nonprofits. that includes 9000 billion dollars the week gave to advertisers lester. -- that we gave to appezer's last year. our biggest asset is our users a trust. it enables us to better match searchers with the information that they seek to fight off

those that would scam our users are undermine the usefulness of our search results, and to create new search results. we focus on building transparency, a user control, and security in to our project. we constantly reiterate to make sure that we are honoring our users' privacy expectations and security needs. because our user'tress is so critical, it is important -- user's trust, it is important we do not fill their information. i urge you to look at google.com/dashboard. it was developed to provide users with a one-stop come easy to use control panel for the personal information associated ith their google account from gmail to sear ch and 20 other

google products. with the board, users can see, and it come and delete the data tored with their individual accounts. she can change her privacy settings, see what she is sharing, and click into the settings for each individual product. i was adamant woman crated the dashboard that we not make it seem to do when we created the dashbvo -- i was adamant will we created th dashboard that in not just a privacy tool. we took a similar approach with their advertising network. our preference manager allows usrs to opt out of ad targeting and to learn about our privacy practices. equally important, it allows users to the the categories that they will see, select new interest categors, and remove

ones that do not match their interest. by offering this service, we hope to get more people to understand and confirm the privacy setting specific interestingly, for every one user who opt out, we see four edit their provinces and 10 of you the page into nothing. -- edit their references and 10 viewtheir paid and do nothing. we are proud of the track record. despite our best efforts, we have made mistakes. in may, googled disclosed that we have mistakenly included code and the software on our street cars that gave information sent over a wfi network from open, and in crowded networks. to be clear, google never used the mistakenly collected data in any product or service. there is no disclosure of any

personal information to any party. as soon as he learned about the incident, we disclose what had happened and anowledged armistead. newell is working hard to address this incident. -- google is working hard to address this incident. we are taking this matter seriously. we are announcing the changes we will make. at the same time, we continue to develop industry leading privacy and security tools. we recently launched in urveted search, allowing usersworldwide to protect their search query from snooping or interception. we are the only major web mail provider o encrypt all e-mail traffic by default. this is a proactive approach that my tam brings to our jobs. i look forward to answering your questions. thank you. >> thank you. now mr. jim harbper from the

cato institute. >> thank you for inviting me to testify. i appreciate you educating the public. my 21 page, single spaced written testimony is only a brief glance at the many issues that are involved in privacy regulation. suspect the one page executive summary is what will benefit you and your staff in the early examinatio of the issue. it says that privacy is a complicated human history. when people talk about privacy, and -- they may mean security from identity fraud. they may mean a distaste for being marketed to in the crash commercialism. privacy refers to control of personal information. that is having the ability to

selectively reveal things about yourself and you kingcraft the image you portray to all the different communities the you interact with. as he had seen in discussion today, the online environment is new and different. many people do not know how to control information about themselves. it will not be easy. i may play skunk of the garden party when i say that i have doubt of the capacity of fair information practices and regulatory solutions to solve these problems and deliver privacy. fair information practices have a long history, nearly 40 years ago there are many good practices -- 40 years. there are many the practices. there are many different data practices that matter in different degrees at different times. blanket use of practice is probably inappropriate and unhelpful. i focused heavily on notice.

the failure of noticed over the past decade to eliver privacy. the short notce project is wonderful and fine, but i do not hold out much hope that it will lead to an upwelling of privacy awareness that i think we would like to have. i believe in changing business particles. for to protocols. regulations may prevent new protocols and new ways of interacting on line from coming into existence. thi would be a pity. it would eny all of us the next generation of innovations. the companies represented by michael panelists i think should always be met by competition. companies can use the regulatory

process to lock out competition from a foreclosed new business models in privacy problematic. and what the change had to really briefly and talk about an issue i kno is on the minds of many people. that is targeted advertising. targeted advertising is sensitive. it represents a loss of control over personal information. it also objectifies consumers as such rattigan treating them as human beings who laugh, cry -- rather than treating them as huan beings to laugh, cry, and fall in love. i understand the concern. it is not motivate me. i want to talk about my experience as the operator of a small website. i ran a website called washingtonwatch.com. it hadabout 1.6 million visitors last year. iam aware of the passions unemployment compensation generate. i run thsite in my spare time.

i filled with my own funds. i joke that is the reason why i do not have a vote in my driveway. it might be the reason why i do not have a driveway. i run google ads help defer th cost. amazon has a critical going -- a pretty cool thing going on right now. i have tons of features that i want to add it to washingtonwatch.com. i decide to add new fatures when i feel like i have the money to do it for the i pay my web developers about twice what i make per hour to work on a site. my sob story does not matter. i stand in the shoes of many small website operators to choose whether they are going to d more content and features a some whetherhey can afford it. targeted advertising and the wafers sites to support themselves better -- isa way for sites to support themselves.

targeted at a more viable and can textual ads and non- contextual, blanket advertising. curtailing targeted advertising in the name privacy involves trade-offs with other importing consumer issues. thanks again so much to testify. i am happy to answer your questions. >> miss dorothy attwood. >> thank you for providing at&t the opportunity to participate. for the 2 billion of us to use the internet, the possibilities are endless. there is a venue for almost every type of interaction. we only have looked at the possibilities. digital signals sent from the rubble in haiti and able to

relief workers to locate survivors. -- in a bold relief workers to locate survivors -- enabled re lief workers to locate survivs. these and bandages are not guaranteed. the internet random information shared willingly among the users. the continued growth of the internet is dependent upon earning maintaining the trust of internet users, that their information is being shared in a way they intend. hen i appeared before this committee two years ago, i articulated the four pillars of all of at&t's' approach to privacy. we continue to believe that these can be the foundation for a privacy regime applicable to all entities. we are even more convinced we

have a consistent set a standard use throughout the internet. last summer from at&t -- last summer, at&t had a 45 the previous period and has in the privacy policy. in consolidating 17 policies into long, we recognize the when it came to privacy, our customer's expectations are the same regardless of the natur let alone the credit for classification of the services they purchase. they want their privacy to be respected. they regard the information they share as theirs to govern. at&t has emphasized privacy by design as a means of increasing transparency. these are built on at the asset. earlier this year, we added an

advertising choices link on to our website that explains our use of what customers search for on yp.com to target as to users elsewhere, it tells them how to opt out, and how to locate the interest profile manager we developed. we launched an advertising social networking recommend a site. users can not join this information site without first establishing their privacy preferences . would provide additional notice about information sharing on the site three separate hoehling. other industry groups have mae important progress in standardizing the user's perience so they can better understand the use of their online affirmation for targeted advertising. we have unified the presentation of the nai tel tool and adopted an icon that will be used. at&t is building on this

momentum by working with better advertising. we believe the industry should press even further and develop a trust framework that enables the permission. with this framework, and cities throughout the ecosystem could cooperate in way to honor the provinces of the customer. such an approach can be likened to bacon's were consumers are not involved in the details on how they handle the actual money transfers but they have every confidence that their money goes where they intend. as detailed in my testimony, a groundbreaking work is already under way. it is easy to misinterpret teen the ease at which information is shared -- misinterpret the

ease at which information is shared. it s about the creation and maintenance of an on-line identity. consumers want control over the sharing of that identity protoco. it is beyond question that consumer affirmation is the bedrock of online advertising that feels a great deal of internet innovati. at the same time, we need to address the fundamental issue of how to preserve ustomer confidence and trust. government and industry must take the step of moving beyond the system of notice to a truly consumer center framework for information framework that will grow. thank you. >> thank you very much. finally, prof. of joseph turow,

we welce you back. -- professor turow, we welcome you back. >> thank you for providing me the opportunity to contribute. >> you are still a little hard to hear. that is because you are off the end of the table. >> i like to highlight for appointed by written testimony. the first is we have a whole new world here. chairman rockefeller, i think your opening statement is of a vice what is going on. it used to be the media firms segment of large populations through media outlet. today a detailed level of knowledge about people in the haters are being used in ways that were unheard of a few yes ago. it is common to buy the right t deliver an added to a person

with specific characteristics at the precise moment that the person both a web page. through cookie matt activities, an advertiser can buy the right to reach someone on an exchange to the advertiser knows from previous contacts and is not tracking around the web. -- now checking around the web. claims of anonymity change the meaning of of and will anonymity." -- meaning of the word "anonymity." we live so much of our lives in the digital arena. if they tu know i if theyrow, -- if they know i am joseph's turow, there preventinme with views of the world. we have companies that are contributing.

they can to beat? said they holds that can create quite a detailed picture. we do not know it. we do not give our permission. it may even harm our reputation. reputations are being created here. people care a lot about data collection that know what is going on. research shows that in large proportions, american adults do not understand how the new data base marketing process that takes place behind their screens work. over and over, privacy policies do nt help. i hate to be negative, but i am very concerned that the box we are talking about could bring the kind of problems that we heard about regarding privacy. it is clear to me that newer tools sometimes called-ford are

counterproductive. -- called dashboards are counterpructive. the reason they are counterproductive so far is that they provide visitors with the incorrect impression that they fully revealed the information advertisers use to address them on the side. -- sites. i would like to ask the googlers prison since -- google resistive if they are limited. it also shows that americans know their activities are being followed on line and are uncomfortable and concerned about it. a recent survey showed emphatically that americans do not want a situation where content is tailored for them based on the use of their data without their knowing it. the situation they do not want is getting worse.

would suggest that the emerging digital world raised consumer protection issues. when companies try people without their knowledge, sell their data without the knowledge and then decide whether they are targets or waste, we have a social problem. if it is allowed to fester, customers realize how it affects them and the offers they get, we are in a situation. the supmarket will get even more disconcerted -- get them even more disconcerting. it uses information with abandon . the data is being sliced and iced decreed reputations that they do not know about them.

people own their data, have a right to know where their data is used, and to not have to worry when they travel through the media world that their actions will cause them on wanted social discrimination regarding what they later see and hear. i suggest that the congress recognizes that certain aspects of this new world raise serious issues and act with that in mind. one path and maybe -- one pact may be to limit the amount of data. some organizations resist such organizations. in the face of the widespread concerns, a lel of regulatory playing field will have the opposite effect. it will increase public trust

and set the stage for new forms of commercial competition. thani thnak the committee for inviting me. -- i think the committee for inviting me -- i thank the committee for inviting me. >> thank you. i appreciate your having this hearing. it is a very important topic. i am sorry i was not able to be here for the first panel. the vote slid backward. here we are. i appreciate all the members of this panel coming forward. professor turow, i appreciate your comment now provocati. right now there is a lot confusion and a lot of anxiety among the public at large about

what power they have over the collection of information and over their lives in the end and how it always managed. -- it all is managed. it is not just the commercial component. the information being collected sometimes might be incorrect. it might be out of context. it may be correct and in context the last longer in the marketplace than people may want it to without the ability to explain it or to make up for some youthful transgression our whatever it is that the information represents. it could be meant for a specific audience and is understood if it is specifically and from the distributed. that can lead to harm and loss of job opportunity.

let's say you had cancer -- have a cancer patient fact the case through a support network of cancer patients and somehow that enters in through an e-mail or reaches some other source and it winds up becoming a source of herbal cures being sent to her or other information. that may not be the way that cancer patient was to leave their life. it may not be the way they want to be identified for and may be that the insurance rates go up because the information gets out. who knows. the bottom line is this. we s on this committee. i remember these conversations 10 years ago when we tried to pass a broad bas distribution of privacy rights. we couldhat do it. we have learned a lot since then about what happens.

i would like to ask a few specific questions regarding some of that. let me ask you, professor turow, what do you think abou this and no harm no foul school of enforcement? does that do all we need to do? does that provide an adequate standard by which we should live? >> i suggested in my talk, harm is a very difficult concept. sometimes, we can find harm. sometimes we can quantify harm. i think the law would like to define harm and that we can quantify monetarily. we are dealing with issues of a reputation here. i would even argue we are dealing with issues of respect and social cohesion. we have to go a bit further and look at harm in the historical way the we thought about it. >> and see if i can pin that down. mr. taylor, you have crossed the

five and a million users at facebook worldwide. did 500 million users at facebook worldwide. how many people work on privacy issues and design? >> everyone at facebook for some privacy issues and design. like security, privacy is a central part of our planning and design process. during every aspect of the product design and prototype process, privacy is a aspect of discussion. what is it accurate or inaccurate that at facebook that when a privacy concern mounts for there is a modification of service somehow that you change your practice that can increase the amount of informations that users are with others? users then expressed concern about that, modify the practice somewhat, but the press is sort of repeat itself.

-- but the process sort of repeat itself. -- repeats itself. >> we never retroactively change people's settings. there have been point where we have transition from one set of -- i will give you one practical example. wen facebook started expanding from college networks to the whole world, there is no notion of -- everyone signed up as a member of the university. we needed to expand the notion to beyond universe city. we bay networks for entire countries. everyone from turkey to join state turkey regional network. at some point, it became a meaningless distinction. sharing with the entire country of turkey is roughly equivalent to everyone in the world. when we got rid of regional networks and we are

modifying it, every user went through a blizzard or they got to choose the new settings. that type of etting had gone away. >> if you change your settings, what happens to the old information? how long is that correct? >> what do you mean by "old information?" >> is a losforever if you change it? is it stored in your mechanisms? can still operate and use it? >> any information that you publish to face the, you can remove. anytime you change your privacy setting, he can easily change it later. it applies to all the information that you have published. >> do you still have the information? even though it has changed in terms of the internet? do you have that stored?

>> the privacy settings? >> whatever was there before. >> if the user posts a 02 facebook, we retain the poto a unless they choose to delete it. >> if they deleted, it is deleted from your storage? >> yes, that is correct. >> and all other information bikeways -- likewise? >> we tried to take a practical approach to privacy. today if you went to your facebook privacy page and you said your privacy setting to "friends only" t did not only apply to all future things you shared with of this you previously shared as well. we tried to make it easy to not only enable people to change yo settings but to change decisions they made in the past as well. >> i know i've gone over my time. do you have the ability to c ull from that information? is there some rmula by which

you can commercially scan the information that is fair and make some kind of determination? >> our focus at facebook is the information users have they decided to share in their profile. one thing that is fairly unique is that it is a service for sharing. people put information on their profile because they want to share it with their friends. >> i understand that. do they want to share with you in a way you can cull it and use it for systems analysis of all or broadbased breaking people up in two categories of putting them out a marketing? do you do that? >> their two parts to that question in my head. i want to make sure it is clear. facebook never sells da to third parties and their cells that said to advertisers kah. other aspect regarding advertising, ads targeted on

face but to the information you to put on your profile. if you remove it from your profile, as a longer be targeted to that. [unintelligible] >> thank you. >> senator caswelmacaskill. >> i anniston advertising makes the internet work and it makes it free. i ama little spooked out at the way this is developing. imagine how an ordinary american would react if someone took a camera and followed them around the store. the doing everything they were buying, watching them make selections between this make a

pandemic of the room make -- make selections etween this or that. i was sitting up here for fun. i could go and search for something i did not really want to now. i went on the web and i looked up a foreign suv. i am not in the market for a foreign suv. if i would buy it, it could be an american suv. it then i went on another web site within 10 minutes of i did it and guess what it ask?

there were a bunch of as for fo and suvs. that is creepy. -- for foreign suvs. that is pp. someone is following what i in doing. if this is taken to the logical conclusion, we could kill the lden goose here. would ask, especially those at google, i know you guys are using algorithms to read e- mails. it is my understanding you are doing it internally only. could you address the issue tha i am talking about, you are reading e-mails internally and using information to predict marketing behavior? >> certainly. this is a really good question. i very much sympathize with the feeling of being followed.

i think it is a very important one for us to address. specifically in th case of e- mails, let me clarify that google's system are not attempting to do any prediction of marketing behavior based on the content of e-mails. gmail has always done was take the same systems that scan an e- mail an order to identify whether it is spamand have the same system trigger off key word. when i asked to purchase something to a gmail ad, i was e-mails with my mother a couple of summers ago. sue is complaining about the heat. i offer to buy here in airconditioner and my e-mail. as those sitting there looking

at the e-mail i had just sent in gmail, because it had the keyword "air-conditioner" there was an ad for air-conditioner next to i and i clicked on it and bought one. that was shown purely because that keyword was in the mail message i was reading that of them. that is a transient thing. that is not used to build any kind of profile with me. it was purely something that happened in a moment right there. >> let me ask this. isn't it true that there are coupo they print out on the internet and you take them into a store and use them and imbedded in the bar code is a whole bunch of affirmation about you? -- information about you? do you think the consumer has a right to know about that? they may be aiding to additional things they do not want?

do not you see that as a privacy issue that you need to address? i do not think most americans get that is what is going on. i think they think the bar codes so the vendor what they are getting. >> this is not a practice that google engages in. to your larger question, absolutely. i think the challenge for all of us and that i take personally is to try to make these things not mysterious for people. a lot of the stress comes from the fact that people experience these things as hppenig behind the scenes in a way they do not have any control over. while we have really focused on and try to do is to find innovative ways to push that understanding of what is happening to the foreground. this is really what we are trying to do.

we were pushing for the ads to make it an engaging interface to get to the manager, some people would want to see what interest categories where associated with their cookies, to participate state-controlled over it. >> i know i am over time. we are used to people poking around our lives year. -- here. it to be a great boon for office and research. my staff from a printout and brought me a print shop of a company you can go to the internet and to pay them $5 it will tell you a whole bunch of stuff about you. it'll tell you where you like to op. it will tell you where you live for their how many bathrooms -- where you live, how many

bathrooms you have, whether or not you are wealthy, how old ur mother is. the folks that have been making a lot of money in offices and research, the internet will be a big help. there will be allowed to find out a lot more stuff for five bucks than they typically have spent thousands. the are kind of use to an invasion of privacy. we sign up for an invasion of privacy. we embrace it willingly. i do think that you all need to really address the phenomenon i talk about. as the american public catches on, and they are born to be very happy. thank you. >> thank you. -- they are not going to be very happy. thank ou. >> thank you.

members were doing something to improve our stalker laws. i hope all of your companies will support these changes. i think it'll pass the house today. the senate always takes a little more time. i think would be helpful to have the support of your compan ies, something that goes beyond your responsibility. my first question is of yu, mr. taylor from facebook. i appreciate the work you are doing. i have raised concern about having a more acceptable safety information on the facebook pages. as know from my 15-year-old daughter, a lot of them kids are using it. -- a lot of kids are using it. i know you had your privacy

button. if there is a way to have a more easily extendible safety information so kids know what to do, if they suddenly get a request of a friend from someone who they do not know, could you respond to that? >> we recently launched a safety center that is accessible. i think we as a company share your concern about safety throughout the company. it is something we think about it every product that we launch. , to highlight it to the things i think are really important. this is a really subtle issue. one thing we focused on is conceptually giving the people who use facebook the ability to report suspicious activity or offensive contacts. the route the site, there are living for people to report content that they thinking from someone who is bullying or perhaps predatory in some way or

any content that they feel it is inappropriate. it is a very important issue. it is not highlighted in some of the discussions i have heard. at the time someone is experiencing something suspicious, giving them the ability to report that and our teams to receive information and disable accounts as it is relevant is very important. we work with every single state attorney general to run their list of creditors against our accounts, disabling a very large amount of accounts and reporting back to authorities. that only goes so far. we hold ourselves to a much higher standard than that. having those in line report linked is a very important part of maintaining a safe environment. >> i appreciate that. i hope we can continue to work on this issue to see if we can

highlit the safety lisso the kids know what they can do. these are just kids. the more we can make it relevant with a button that says if you are worried or scared about something as opsed as privacy, i think that would trigger them more to look at it. we can continue working on that tehema in may, for did on that. -- wrking on that. in may, we learn that they will come out photos for the math teacher. i exchanged etters with your ceo, ic schmidt. could you talk about the outcomes of what i consider a serious privacy violation? >> we re still conducting are very thorough follow-up investigation. i am not a member of the team focusing on that it directly.

i will be somewhat limited in what i can reply to. we have committed to communicating publicly what changes we will make to ensure that this kind of mistake is not happen again. we take this very seriously. >> i appreciate that. >> you are just figuring out how to change things so it does not happen again? >> the investigation is still out there -- open. >> appeared appear file haring is not often discussed when kids use these program. -- peer-t-peer out turn is often not discussed with kids using the program. all the company's data goes out into the internet. they became victims of identity theft this in a want to comment on what we should be doing? we have a bill to try to address

it. who no takers? mr. harper, thank you. >> i've not been on a peer-to- peer networking many years. it calls for better consumer awarene and education. that is the hard way but e only way to go out and. a good parenting is always at the center of protecting children online. you are not want to come up with a magical technology solution. >> as a parent who did not even know what lol meant when out as a question in a campaign event, i do not know every parent can know everything about what is going on. that is why i suggest you look at our bill. we are trying to give adults on the computer more information about what their kids have put on there so that they can maybe stop it.

that is what we are trying to do i have to step out for something and then i will be back. >> that was dramatic. >> thank you. i have a couple of comments and questions. the first is to mr. taylor. how would you notify when he made these changes? you describe the new security component. how'd you notify your customers? >> there are a variety of mechanisms and depending on the magnitude of the change led me start -- change. >> let's start with the latest one. >> i've not directly working on this. excuse any inaccuracies. we launched its trip from a part of our help center. that is the center support part of our website. we also launched ads to advertise the presence of the

new center to our users. > where would you label this on day importance to your customers? would this be the maximum amount of notification? >> it is sought the maximum amount. -- it is not the maximum amount. some changes to our service will have a prominent notice athe top of your facebook page, the interns 0.2 facebook, and -- the entrance to facebook, the most important. >> thank you very much. i want to take the air conditioning example one step further if i tampa once -- if i can. once the company high has that

information, they have a profile on you. i consider some of this leg the catalog business on steroids. you order one catalog and before you know it is 80% of your meal. now you -- mail now you have ordered it. what happens to the data they have now collected? >> first of all, the air conditioning company told google it would pay to have this particular ad. then i am reading my e-mail. my e-mail has the word "air conditioner" and it sends me ad. then i click on the ad. i am taking to an advertiser's website. at that time they are after, i no longer deaing with google. i am not talking directly to the advertiser.

at the air conditioner in my shopping cart. i ive them my delivery address and payment information. the ongoing relationship i may have with the company is estalished to that transactio >> ut in essence, it started with just air-conditioning in your e-mail. >> that is what triggered the added to the company. they had no information to pursue an ongoing relationship with me until i went to their site and interactive. >> he made a commitment at that point. when you purchased the unit, the assumption is that your plan to get a lot of stuff from them. >> i did remember for that particular company. and number getting a lot of air- conditione relatesr e-mails. >> the assumption is that one to go on thei -- that once you go n

there, that you are in their system. >> there is used in of in or opt out to get promotional e-mails. >> for the company's letter here, -- t hat arthat are here, what one thing would you recommend to increase the level of security and privacy to the users of your facilities? i use the facility brother. one is at&t, facebook, and google. what is the one thing that should be improved? you tell me you are doing it all right. >> let me comment on that. >> of the radar will go up. the one not be a good answer. -- that will not be a good answer. >> we believe we are adopting the framework that the ftc

talked about. we are innovating in the way we are talking to our customers. the one thing we are missing is that we are not honoring each other's customers permissions. every day there are literally millions of customers who use at&t's service is on apple's ihpone go to face it and check their friend at this info to google where they should go for dinner. that happened millions of times a day. the customer has to read all of the privacy policies. i am proud of the policy. we worked hard to make it very secure and straightforward. there is nothing that happens to the customer and it goes to at&t and says they want to have their information protected. i cannot honor that across the board. i do believe that is the next

phase will me think about demystifying it for the consumer and making it less creepy. we have to work with the industry and pushed the boundaries as saying, when someone says to me i was my information protected in a certain way, they want to protect it. i honor that. google honors me. we give a single unified fade to the customer in terms of their permission. cr>> a want to bring of t idea of individual consumers exercising control over cookies. could these are the primary way in which the track from site to site. arafat and internet explorer are the most popular browsers. -- a firefox and internet explorer are the most popular browsers. i am a stickler.

i delete every cookie, a computer. people can create a blanket rules of of that kind of thing and take a big chunk out of the information. that is one thing consumers can do. >> i know my time is up. >> i think you are right about that. it has to be said that increasingly mpanies are trng to get around cookie problem. companies are beginning to use first party could ease, because they know third for the cookies are a disaster. toolbars can be used without any cookies at all. there are some cookies that do not extinguish. there are a lot of ways, registration. if the industry knows that cookies are sometimes how fallible and in danger. -- are sometimes fallible and in danger.

" i feel like you feel you are being ignored. -- >> i feel like you feel you are being ignored andthat that still something for you. >> what is it? >> this is his. i wanted to make a point. you indicate -- let's say i am a 55-year-old forster from central montana, and you indicated that all i have to do is go to the particular click and they will get their capacity to protect themselves. it turned out that your machine here, the particular click is labeled "settings" -- i am getting out of the tree and running in getting this. if i go like this in thoery, i

guess what you get -- if i go like this, in theory i get when you gave me. i give my choice. on the other hand, i had to go to that setting. what is the word "setting?" houses goes to me something? -- ow is that -- how is that supposed to mean something? to you it is very clear. there is total clarity with all of the and certainty about occasional mistakes. review with all of you uncertainty about occasional mistakes. -- with all of you about and certainly and occasional mistakes.

maybe i could eliminate if i spend time on it and get down to the settings anything get 21 taffeta do you see my point? >> i actually agree with your goals of clarity. i can tell you t hat we strive for that in terms of the usability of our devices and finding things like thi easily on a device. i is a challenge. we ty to excel at it, actually. one of my point about this particular feature was that i believe that it is important that privacy issues not just be relegated to a privacy policy, that they actually be designed so that they are part of the user interface that the user would encounter normally during

the use of their device. . . >> is your location being tracked? we think that is just as important if not more important. user interface is one of the

areas where we are actively innovating. there is more innovation to be ne there. >> i d to au pair >> i agree. >> i am going to say something not entirely unpleasant to you but it surprised me. you are in charge of security an openness for google, and you started out with a three minute lecture on how much money kugel mak google makes. we all know that. why did yo start out on that? i want to say that for the record. he started talking about how successful google is. you have nothing to say? i am going on to mr. taylor. mr. taylor, your privacy policy has the falling -- 'even after you remove information from your profile or delete your account, copies of that information may

remain viewable elsewhere." and then it goes on to say " ceain types of communications use and other users cnot be removed, such as messages," which are kind of basic. now, it begs the question if a facebook user wants to permanently delete, you ve him a firm answer -- is gone. this says otherwise. >> i'm sorry. rae yoare you done? is it a proper time? you bring up some of the most subtle issues we deal with and working on a social product. the issue about your data may still be viewable elsewhere -- is important point -- an important point to give people

reading that pocy are realistic expectation on how information may flow throughout the internet. you may publish your telephone number to your facebook profile and your friend may take that number and copy it into their phone. that interaction came from facebook, and even though you deleted your profile, that information may continue to exist because your friend copied it into their phone. likewise, your friend might take a phograph you published to facebook and printed out and put it on a collage or on their personal home page because they copied it off of facebook. when you are sharing information with other human beings on the internet, it is not just a technical thing -- it is a social thing. people may choo to do this with that information outside of the things we can control. if i recall the part of the policy you talk about, that is the realistic expectation that we are trying to make sure people using our svice understand. regarding, there are some pieces

of information that cannot be deleted like messages. we have thought a lot about this. a lot of people use our messaging products like these mammoe-mail. once you send a letter to someone, and it ends up in their hands, you have the social ability to ask for it back, but it is in their hands. when you send someone a mesge, we consider that piece of information owned by two people, just because it is provided by the existing conventions that existed with e-mail andven postal mail. so those are very specific instances. the information you shared your profile is information y can delete permanently. in those instances, we were trying to take a thoughtful approach. >> is it not true that some

were, and -- somewhere, and this applies to intelligence agencies, that there is some point that there is a residual place of keeping information that cannot be deleted under any circumstances? >> sir, i cannot speak to what our intelligence agencies do. >> i am asking that to you. >> do you mind clarify your question? are you asking -- from our servers, when you delete ur account, we delete the information associated with your account. >> so there is no backup anything anywhere which retains that? >> the technical systems are complex and there may be back up of some information somewhere due to the complexity of this syst. >> what if you are subject to a lawsuit? and you have to go back and pull

out that particular email, whatever was? you have to be able to do that, don't you? or you say, we cannot defend ourselves. >> if someone has depleted their facebook account, what mechanisms we have to look up that deleted account? some of this may get into specific details of our infrastructure i am not familiar with. the spirit of facebook is your information is deleted. these technical systems, due to the technical requirements of making a system that is reliable and available at all times of the day, may mean there are backups in some parts of our system. so i think that is a reality. i am not sure and that specific instance what information would be available. -- in that specific instance.

>> i move from my purse and high up in the tree cutting off bridges to a 13-year-old -- from my purse and high up in the tree cutting off branches to a 13- year-old, who is a lonely, and the ability for a predator. we had hearings on this subject, too. i do round tables in my state of west virginia about that subject -- the vulnerability of students, of young people. they are your future, your present. i not know how much of your profits come from them, but a lot. and when somebody asked you the question, who is responsible for privacy protection? everybody who works at facebook, everybody who works there is. i found that suspicious and disingenuous. i think companies have to be

divided up. and people do not spend all their time on every question that comes before them - what are the privacy consequences of this? i do not believe what you said. >> that is a fair point. what i intended to say is that the engineers and product managers that develop the products take into account privacy ed every aspect of product design. we have -- at every aspect of product design. >> i accept that. don't you think there is the possibility of beginning to divide the world into enand users into two categories -- those who know what to expect and how to handle themselves, what consequences are of what they do. i put that group at 50%. andhen others who are simply thrilled to be on facebook or on

google, whatever, but they are not sure what they are doing, they are not sure the consequences of what they do. they do not know what it means it to have them fall on them or rum. they are innocent -- they do not know what it means to have people follow them. you are being successful and people are signing up like crazy. so why complain? but there are consequences. there are inherent consequences. the bullying thing is not inconsequential. sexual predators is huge. anit is a part of what you do. if you can defend yourself against this, if you go to the right icons and make the right moves,i suppose you could stay out of trouble. always working is the record.

people are tracking you -- always lurking is the record. tople are using new tyou advertise. the word air-coitioning did come up for a certain reason. it was convenient because you were trying to help your mother. in other cases, it may be confusing. my philosophical question -- i ask the au professor this question. are we dividing ourselves into two classes of people -- people who understand it and can handle themselves on these instruments before us and those who cannot? and those who cannot are paying a price which we do not yet fully understand but which we are beginning to understand and that does get into the abuse and sexual lives and predator that and bullying or misinformation

or simply being marketed. it is the same question with senator kerrey. i get telephone calls at our home that are meant to be unlisted numbers. you just hang up. that is an annoyance. it should not occur in american life. but i have no way of stopping it. hence, the question -- can i stop facebook from having recos on me? you say, yes. i am not so sure. >> the larger question is, or becoming two different societies and is not that wrong on something that is this dominant in our culture? >> i think we are becoming multiple level societies for a number of reasons. one is exactly what you say. the pple who know and the people who do not know. as i get into the data we have dealt with and people have done research on, i used to believe that a lot of these problems

could be solved by education. i no longer believe that everything can be solved by people learning. it is too complex. i find professionals in the field, when i call them to check on things i am thinking about, will not know the answers. reading privacy policies is becoming a scavenger hunt, because not only do you try to make sense of verbiage which is basically understood by the people who created it and not many others, you are also into links that tell you that other parts of this are related to other companies and they use words like affiliate's that most would not understand. at that level, we have even very intelligent people could not -- that could not make sense of that. on another level, i am concerned we are moving into a world -- and this gets us into television, not just the internet -- because the television is going through the internet. digital tv. we are going to have a situation

where people receive the views of the world based upon what others know aut them and what they do not know others know about them. it is quite possible, and i have spoken to people who are beginning to think about this regarding marketing, are changing the news profile based upon the parameters that people know about you. as a consequence, that will fit people into certain kinds of reputation and silos. we are not there yet, but we are defining people's reputations in ways they do not understand. there are multiple levels relating to status, education, relating to so many things that i am beginning to despair that we can ever really understand it. i am beginning to think at -- that some parts of this have to be regulated. not anything, -- not everything, by any means. >> i am so over my time it is

embarrassing. senator kerrey, thank you -- senator kerry. >> can you share with us what the recent which was about that saw the distribution of more than 100,000 ipad owners' emails. >> we had an incident recently that was largely called a brute force attack. it was a security breach by some hackers who were trying to collect information about ipad users. it was an incident where the hackers developed, looked at, develops software in which they rd used to capture email addresses -- that were used to capture email addresses tt were able to be captured on a

website that they had because there was a certain -- well, for the ease of the customer, the website they went to retain information about the email address using the icc i.d. code, which is the serial number of ipad. by writing the code, they were able to randomly seek to capture the informationf that email address and constructed a list of those addresses. we found out about the security reach when a media ouletlet said the attackers had gone to them and proposed there was a vulnerability in the security of the emai address. within 24 hours, we fixed that vulnerability. then we tried to assess ether

there was additional vulnerability. we concluded that the only information that was potentially vulnerable was the icc-id code, the serial n umbeumber onr sim cd. in an abundance of caution, we notify all the purchasers of the ipad 3g device that was a potential exposure of their email address. to date, we have not seen that information be released in any other way other than to these media outlets. but we are cooperating with the criminal investigation that is looking into seeing how that security breach occurred. >> how oftyeen do you guys get attacked like that? >> it is a daily event. >> for all due -- for all of you? >> we spend millions of dollars

on securing the network. it is a constant. it is almost as board in trying to expose a vulnerabilities. -- almost a sport in trying to expose a vulnerability. >> how should people who have their information entrusted to you, what kind of confidence can they have? >> i think that developing the confidence and maintaining the confidence of the security of the network is essential. in this instance, we were disappointed. we spend millions of dollars establishing very secure networks and since, we have failed our customers. as soon ase understood the nature of the problem, we fixed it and notified them. we also made available new sim cards, if our customers feel they need them. from a security perspective, we do not think they are necessary but we made that available. absolutely -- they demand and

expect more. >> you are an engineer. licyo, i am a poic person. >> are you able to tell me where there is the greatest vulnerability in the system for abuse, where in the networks? >> i think you have multiple areas that are capable of security violations. so you have databases where you store information. you have a physical links were individuals y. you have devices where there is actually efforts to correct deves. i would described in the entire product line, you have multiple areas where you could see security breaches. in fact, we have a lab that is set up just to try to ferret out

where those bridges can occur. >> can you tell us what deep packet inspection is? >> essentially, it is the ability to read beyond -- every bit has a certain infortion. some of it is considered shallow, kind of like addresses. other portions of it are called deep packet which is payload information. department inspection -- deep packet inspection is the capability to evaluate the shallow and a deep information contained in that bit. it is used in our network for trying to find malware, spyware for purposes of network security. >> is it used for commercial purposes? >> thank you for saying so.

i heard previous testimony. no. we do not use it for marketing purposes, which was the subject of interest a couple years ago. in portland, we have gone so far as to it -- and partly, we have gone so far is to explain we will not use it -- important. in the event that there seems to be a desire for the use of that information, we ask our customers first. so, no. we do deep packet inspection -- like any technical advancement -- there have been discussions about recent issues that have been faced by companies on this panel and each one of those involved the use of technology in a pper way. in this context, the packet inspection, -- deep packet inspection, i do not think there is anybody who has suggested it

was used inappropriately. where the issue is the use of that in the way that seemed to offend customers and user expectations. because of that, at&t was not doing that or planning to do that, but we made clear we would not do that without customer permission. >> mr. taylor, in response to the chairman's question about the deleting of information and the storage of information, you repeatedly said at if it is deleted, it is gone. what if somebody simply deactivates their facebook page? it's there forever, is not it? >> i may get some of these details wrong. this is based on my understanding. when you deactivate your facebook account, for some period of time, you can reclaim it. it is a very frequent that someone might choose to

disable their account and then want to restored. so we added that as a feature to our users, where we noticed that many people had biters remorse about a decision to delete the account-- had buyer'' remorse about the decision to delete the account. >> so you do not know whether or not it stays for several years? >> i do not think it does. i am not familiar with the details. i am uncomfortableivina specific answer. it is worthwhile to provide one specific bid of context. people published a lot of information to their profile. i recentlhad a baby, for example, and a lot of the initial photographs are in there. the act of the leading that is significant. just like -- the act of deleting that is significant.

that is the motivation for that piece of functionality. i wanted to provide that context. >> fair enough. well, as everybody knows, our counterparts in the house have introduced legislation. we have a cross the jurisdiction on this committee. the consumer protection subcommittee. we will work with the chairman, and with a goal of trying to build a record, we have reports coming out from the commerce departme and the ftc. the question is -- can we come up with a standard, a set of expectations that are more effective? we struggled with this 10 years ago and i guess we failed because the offline-on-line debate -- we got caught up in that and tried to reach may be too far at that point in time. incidently, i am not suggesting

you're compani have not made - - your companies have not ma significant initiatives to respect people's privacy. all in all, the opt-in, opt-out debate has been resolved pretty effectively. i give you credit for that. it is tricky. that is a long page of complicated conditions, and most people zap to the "i agree" and off they go. so, i am not sure there is knowledge in a copy emptor component of this -- the caveat emptor component of this. we need to figure if we can get a base line that is simpler and more direct. we look forward to it. thanks for the time. >> go ahead. >> thank you, mr. chairman.

the day is getting late and i had a few additional questions about the subject that senator kerrey raised -- senator kerry raised about opt-in, opt-out. they can visit -- oodouble agent.com. how do your users learn about opt-out? how do they learn about it? >> the opt-out link is in our privacy policy documents, which is a link from every page on our website -- linked from every page on our website. we work hard to make sure our privacy policy is in aslain

gtheiierand not lenthie than it needs to be. but that is currently the mechanism. i should point out that in the case of i-ads, that is something that we are just starting to do. in fact, we just started earlier this month to enable i-ads, which are ads that come up in the applications on your iphone. that mechanism may evolves over time as we innovate new ways to incorporate the control over user information into the ur interfac itself rather than just relying on the privacy

policy. >> in your testimony, you indicated that your customers have been caught in a mel for location-based privacy disclosures -- an opt-in model for location based privacy disclosures. and an opt-out for apple. is that right? >> um, i think what you said is correct. >> you can clarify later if you want in writing or for the record. i am trying to figure out how uniform privacy disclosure policies would affect apple if we were to mandate that. >> well, so, with respect to location, as i mentioned previously, there is a master on-off switch for location-based davis of the user has the option

of opting out from any location data collection at all, as the chairman rockefeller pointed out, perhaps that could be a more easily defined interface, but that is the goal of that feature. >> with google, along these same lines about reading privacy policies when people are not looking at everything. you may have data on that. i do not know how many actlly read them. can you learn about how users learn about-board and how you inform them and what work you have done -- and about dash- board. >> we developed a pithy saying, and this is to say that show is better than tell. my perspective on this is that privacy policies are necessary, but they are only the beginning

of the efforts we should be making to try to explain consistently the samehings, the same important things that users need to understand about privacy in many different ways. this is why we have a google -- if you click the privacy link, you go not just to a policy but to the center, which contains the policy but also contains a frequently asked questions. it contains -- when we launched chrome, we commissioned a comic book to explain some of the things about the way it worked and the controls we built into it. it contains youtube and videos of me and others explaining aspects o how we use data, what corols are there, how-board works -- how daskboard works. we tried to present information many differe ways -- how

dashboard works. another component of it, and one dear to my heart, is working to build the clarity right into the experience of the product. with the dashboard, it was a very important to make that be ideally something that people would go to just because they want to know -- where is all my stuff? it would be like going to your desktop almost. because it presented -- in a useful and practical way -- a view of what the information stored in the account was. people would be consciously aware of that, even if they were not thinking privacy, privacy. we did not want people to first be concerned and then click through and see things. we wanted to put it in front of them. i think there is a lot of work

to be done. there is a lot of mystery to clear up. hopefully, that will keep my team is busy. >> i know as chairman -- and talking about google and how you have grown, i was thinking about that. one of the messages is that you have been successful. we appreciate that. we appreciate the job you have brought, all of you, to our country, but with that comes responsibility for privacy. but this responsibility for privacy of things we would not imagine people are trying to do to steal things and creditors in getting information, and that is what you are hearing from all of us today. it is what we hear from our constituents. i know you have hrd them as well. it is our duty to say that we need to do something better. some of laws will be is

affecting some of the things yo do. i want to thank you for your testimony and we will work with you as we draft laws and try to do the best thing for the people of this country. thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> i have a closing thought. i remember 10 to 15 years ago, when it was y2k. when was that? cato comes down with 10. do i have a 12? what was fascinatingbout that and what is on my mind is what an unbelievably naive display that was. an enormous number of very large a day before a vote to land at the washington

airport -- jets coming in a day before a vote to land at the washington airport. senators rightnd left were summoned to meetings to tell us what the stakes were and how we should vote. e next day, and that's still very much in my mind, and it describes the separation in some respects between your world and our world. it is not just a matter of silicon valley, east coast, those horrible people in government, but there is the unfortunate fact that we do have oversight over to. you. and this is hard for you to live with, because you are off on a tear doing great things for this country. and the senator and i left with incredibly frustrated parents, principals, , school

board members, police officers coming in and complaining to us on a regular basis about the fallout about what it is you do. and i do not say that with hostility. i say that with a sense of, that we each have to reach out to each other. but you should know that this is a committee -- it is called the commerce committee. i have been on it for 26 years. we have changed. and we have changed much more into a consumer protection- type of committee. we find ourselves up to our ups, rs in scams and pop- and what the health insurance industry did during the health care debate, the way they were

taken to court. we had a lot to do with that and how they are still trying to take the medical loss ratio in which we finally had to pass when the public option it could not pass, and they are trying to twist that before health and human services can put out a final ruling on it. aggressively, people trying to shape the wld they want the world -- shape the world the way they wanted to be. that is behavior i can forgive provided there is a counter on the undersiother side. the other side happens to be us. you have heard bright people with some passionate thoughts and deep reflections on the success of your industries and the use of your industry is by but there is the other side. and that is where we use words like -- that is why i p ointed that out -- i made myself

into a tree climber. that is what most people are like in this country. in the east, midwest, southwest, northwest, and california. and, um, so i just hold that out as a thought for you, that we are doing this together, and we are -- the people who sit behind us on these things are incredibly sophisticated wizards at what you do. if we are going to make america better, protect children, because parents to do as much as they tend to be responsible but understand when it cannot be because they do not have the time, they are dead tired, they are on their third job of the day, what ever it is, that still, all of the system has to work. you started out the day a bit

talking about, we are all about privacy protection online. and it ended up more with, well, we still have a lot to do, a long way to go. and there were things that came up, which i did not find satisfaction in but found interest in it. to simply say, in closing, that we need each other. but it is important to understand that you need us, too, because we represent the american people in the way that you do not. they do more business with you, but they depend upon us. so we have our work to do, all of us. you are terrific to be here and to stay this long. most would not have done it. but you did getour machine back. thank you, all. >> nice to meet you.

[caponing performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> next, "q&a" with documentary film maker and your calls and comments on washington journal. . . flu

>> this week our guest is documentary filmmaker greg barker. >> greg barker, we need to tell

the audience that you actually used to produce this program. what year? >> 1984, my first job out of college, until 1989. >> you were an early producer of book notes. >> i was the first producer of book notes. >> we have been struggling to remember that. explain what your job is now. >> it is largely a product of what i went through here. i am a filmmaker. i make mostly documentary films, mostly about international events and characters that i find that have interesting stories to tell, and provide a window to the outside world for a general audience. world for a general audience.