have yet to hold one.

it is a coincidence that our first candidate is a local boy, born here. he is now an mp and the shadow education racketeer's second -- a education secretary. the miliband brothers, the shadow health secretary, and diane abbott is a backbencher. we are here in norwich, which is

now a youth center, and some of the young people associated are here this morning. our main audience is divided into two groups, labour activist on all left of the aisle, and on the other side, we have been independently selected sample of voters from the region, from all parties. those are the two groups who the winner will have to persuade and win over to become the next prime minister. question that's been submitted by the audience here in by viewers and readers online of sky news. let's get down to the debate. [applause]

the first question is for the local member of the european parliament, good morning. >> this is the first election since 1945, no labour mp was elected in east anglia. what does this say for the decline of the party support in regions like this? if you are elected leader, . >> i think, richard, the message was consistent and clear -- labour was not offering enough to people in is anglia to get their butts. they did not think that we were clear enough about what we wanted to do in the future. immigration was a big issue here. people want a fair immigration system, but for people in the

country and people want to come here. we must carry on listening. we develop policy ideas for the future of britain. labour -- the f >> that was 30 seconds. >> behalf to restore trust in politics. there was a collapse in trust generally across the country. my very first speech in parliament 22 years ago was about immigration. because i have done so much for what we need to be aware of is scapegoating the migrants in our midst. >> will talk about immigration letter. >> the reality is that in too many communities, the people who

have been labour in the past said i do not think you're standing up for us and up. i think politicians are all the same. on the big issues people are caring about, jobs, housing, university finance, we're going to stand up for you. it is no surprise that people did not turn out for us. we have to get back on people's side. labour will reduce the housing lines. >> across the south of england, we've not address the problem of housing. it is a big failure of our government. they could get rid down and make away in the war. labour, we had become dangerously disconnected from ordinary people. they look for times that we're on the side of big business, not ordinary people.

we are not standing up for our principles. we need to rebuild labour from the bottom up. >> i think it for you do as a member of the european parliament. we have to be a party for every part of this country. the way we've when support is recognizing that labour is right to say that. we have to have the courage to change. on a whole series of policies, on tuition fees, on issues like civil liberties. if we have the courage to change, we can win back power in this region and across the country. >> let's get some reaction from the audience on the problems of labour in this region. you've got some thoughts. how >> was a labour candidates last election.

many voters were convicted -- were certain that labour could not win here. does that statement on tactical voting, especially labor activists who had campaigned hard for months, my mom and dad are members and residents up there. there are lots of people devoted for the liberal democrat to beat the torrid. i said to them, i would never do that, but i understand when people did. they're people all across the country who voted for the liberal democrats to stop the taurus. and now they see what they have voted for and it will never do it again. we have to learn from that.

we're coming into an important general election and we should have been fighting for labour. we need to rediscover the courage of our convictions. it led to me that we did not believe and what we were saying and what we were fighting for. labour has to get back in the business of big social change. we were frightened of our own shadow, things that might upset the newspapers. we have to have a strong conviction. >> paul is the only candidate that double the majority. -- i am the only candidate that double her majority. many people are now having to eat their words. how do we unite to put the best

candidates and the party and ordered to push the conservative-lib dem coalition out? >> is no good flaming liberal democrat voters. we have to figure what we did wrong. the problem we had in the election is that the lib dem has curly but trade themselves. we have got to change. inequality is a big issue and our party and we have to talk about that. the crowd but -- the gap between rich and poor is too wide. unless we go on a journey for ourselves, we will not win back those voters. >> drawing support all across the labour has we'd try to get all those voters. we need to set out an agenda for the future, a moral economy, a community that can be david cameron said's did society idea

which means that government does less than you do more. >> to you want to come in quickly on this? just say one thing, it is dangerous if we make the whole issue the temperature of the liberal democrats. we have to persuade them to come back to labour as well. the liberal democrat or you would get a tory government. >> let's move on to a question from one of our candidates. in each section they will take a question for the other four. the first goes to david miliband. >> we are all set standing to be leader of our party. my question is, what is the toughest decision that my colleagues have taken in parliament or in government? >> voting against your brother, wasn't it?

>> i think it was. the reason i did was not that i think i have a distinctive message about how the labour party needs to change. tony blair said this week that we need to move toward new labour. unless we have the courage to change on a whole range of issues, we will not win back power ever. >> the toughest decision before i was a mp was to make an argument that the single currency would be a terrible mistake for our country. that was not a consensus view and i think history has shown that to be a good call. we're dealing with the aftermath, the tragedy of baby peter and his death, and having to destroy confidence. it was really hard. >> i decided to change our

policy on youth and the private sector. when i decided to change it and the day i put it forward to the cabinet to make a change, you might avert a tumbleweed coming down the cabinet table for lack of support. but i think it is the finest achievements of our labour party and i will defend it with everything that have got. when you push something through without support of your colleagues. >> the toughest decision i've took as a backbencher was to take a decision to actually vote against the iraq war. it's impossible to convey the pressures there were on individual backbenchers about this. it was characterized as an issue of loyalty to tony blair. and yet i knew that the dossier i had read, the facts, ordinary

members were against the war, i voted against it and i am proud that i took that decision. >> what he think of those answers? >> my own answer to the question would be on the six occasions i went to afghanistan as foreign secretary, eyeleted young people who were half my age, young enough to be my son and daughter, and ask myself about the sacrifice we are asking them to make. that is the human scale politics. and no one who goes in the politics will ever make a decision like that to ask our fellow citizens to put themselves in harm's way as if you are not absolutely convinced that they were making a difference and that was not solicited -- essential for our national security. >> this is about reconnecting labour with the voters. we've devised their written test. each is not going to write down the response to this question

and after the commercial break we will tell you who batter right. we will do this five times. from norwich with apologies to our younger viewers, it is quiz of the week. you've got a bit of paper to write them on. we will get them to you very quickly during the break. the question -- do not shout out the answer -- according to petrol prices, what is the average price today of a leader of unleaded petrol? we will have that answer for you in just a moment here on sky news. welcome back to the sky news labour leadership debate. we were discussing how to touch -- how in touch our canada's work. the first question is what is the price of a liter of petrol. the answer is 1 pound 15.

ed miliband, dave miliband, and ed balls got that one right. diane abbott did not answer on principle because she does not drive at all. into move on before we get this debate. we had some quick fire questions to get a quick response as to where people stand on issues. diane abbott will answer this for. would you describe yourself as a socialist and what does that mean to you? >> i would describe myself as a socialist. if it means anything, it is being able to bring society together to make it more equal, to make it more just, and always making sure that the voice was have that voice. >> yes, it means that what we do together is greater than what we can do on our own. it is a very simple idea. social speaks to the basic part of who we are, that we get our

identity and our freedom for what we rebel to do together. >> yes, we need to be willing to criticize the injustices of absolutism. we need to be willing to say that there are injustices with which we want to deal. >> yes, i joined labour 25 years ago for chances in this country and for all the progress we've made in this country, the place you were born and determines where you will be in line. i am in politics to change that. i am a socialist. >> yes, i said this to a newspaper five years ago. a previous academy of something different. we are stronger standing together and we used to the solidarity and unselfishness.

collective action determine social justice in the economy. >> the net's quick fire questions -- tony blair are born brown? >> in the end, gordon brown. >> gordon brown. tony blair may be more photogenic but told -- gordon brown was the better man. >> is so important. . . blair or gordon brown is not on the ballot paper. it is a new generation. we should not fight the battles of the pass. >> i was 100% loyal to tony blair and gordon brown because i am all loyal labour man through

and through. but not everyone in parliament and say that. because of that, i can unite labour going forward. >> of the them, they were an extraordinary partnership but how do we move on? do we have the courage? that generous a politician -- that generation of politicians came in the 1980's. we have to move forward to win power by. >> the move on to our next substantive question. >> will continue as potential bidders offer the people on the middle of the ladder? they have hardly have ever claimed benefits. i feel these people need to be

reported. they are the backbone of this country. and i think this is where voter apathy lies the most, 25,000 pounds a year or less. >> to concentrate on the extremes to much. >> thank you for that job you do as a counselor. you are completely right. we have to stand for middle- income people. what have seen in this campaign is people who feel they are struggling to get by, they're working harder for longer for less money. . designed to appeal across the spectrum. when i want to replace tuition freeze with a graduate tax, the or leave the burden on many people in middle-income britain who feel they are being asked to give their kids money that they do not have. you're absolutely right -- we have to appeal that. >> i think that this goes to the

heart of our challenge. we have to -- what people in the middle and the bottom know is that they have to work for a living, or those born in the well to do not have to. it is wrong to cheat on the benefits system as it is to play games with our pensions on the force of our city. their taxes are the right way floor. hard work and the dignity of work are the right wave form. -- right way forward. >> the coalition, the public sector's cuts like a child tax credits, will get a medal britain particularly hard. when it comes to middle britain, i am a woman. when u.s. might viewers what is the next favorite program, it is

midsummer murders. i am the candidate for midsummer murders waters. -- waters. >> loyalty is a challenge for people. and remember enemy we have with tony blair were arrested, what you think the middle income is? annie said 40,000 pounds to 60,000 pound. the problem is that if you get into the mindset, if you do not understand that most people are on lower incomes than that. it is not fair. to many people feel that they work hard and paid the taxes. with the two other people, you've got to work as well. we're going the lessen the burden for families. sometimes it looks as we were making it tougher on some of them. >> when my grandmother was going in to care, it was one of the

most cruel things i saw. we need to change the care system and our culture. everything people have worked for, their homes and their savings, it is taken away at the end of their lives. and i have called for national care service. i believe it should be up to labour. it could get -- give everyone peace of mind and late in life, it will protect what they have worked for, and it combines the best of old labour with the best of new labour. >> went to people start putting more back in? >> forward people who have saved in their life and build up something, it broke my grandmother's heart that she could not pass that on to us to give us a better light. we've had in our system a reward

for people who'd do the right thing. thus the fairness that marie was talking about. judy you talking about it freed tax system, but it is not free. people have to pay some sort of levy. >> so that everyone can protect a 90% of what they worked for. you have to get back in the business of making it difficult argument to the public, not being frightened of what they may or may not say. i am ready to do that. >> another important, there is a crucial question about where is middle england? we put a top rated tax on our 150,000 households, and i thought i was there to reduce that deficit and to protect other people from cuts in public services. i think we can appeal to middle england, but middle england relies on our public services.

90 for a -- 90% of the population use our public services. sometimes we got it wrong where middle england was in terms of their opinions. >> there's no such thing as a free lunch. i admire what he said about the national care service. i also think it is very important that we send a very clear message that we are a party that is determined to be serious and credible about growth in our economy, and also about reducing that deficit. our quarrel with a current government is that their economic strategy will banged up the benefits and reduce taxes by pushing up unemployment. we know how to grow the economy but we're also serious about reducing the deficit, which is something for each and everyone of us. >> the smoot to recanted it question from ed miliband. -- let's move on to a candid question from ed miliband. >> i would want to draw on the

talents of everyone across our party. as you just showed, with a national care service, andy has lots of fantastic catches. what is the one thing that another canada brought to this that we should take full or? >> in different ways, all the incumbents and made important arguments. a lot choose one. i can go through all four. on the national care service, ed and i have been right in making that argument. david is right to remind us that it's incredible to make sure that your sums add up. and diane abbott has always challenge us not to fall for false consensuses. >> the brilliant thing about this is that we are not ideologically split. we're strong going forward, because we have broadly the same

thing. a graduate tax is the right when it change higher education because we have to be helping kids to get on in life. we should not allow inflation for young people feel like they cannot go university. with a lot of things in common. >> throughout the campaign, they have nix some of my can that -- that is. if i single out one, ed balls has been the clearest and most sincere and explanation on why you cannot cut your way out of recession. >> i ask the question after the previous one, i cannot change my mind now. what andy has been campaigning on in respect to the national care services important. the russian roulette and our country.

16 people -- one in 16 people will be hit with care cost of over 150,000 pounds a year. for women, they are especially in the frontline, caring for kids and old people. what are not we can come together society make sure that we have an insurance scheme that detects all of us, that goes to the heart of who we are as a country. -- that protects all was, that goes to the heart of who we are is a country. kidding you're watching sky news. the labour leadership debate. we're going to pause briefly for the news headlines. >> welcome back to the sky news labour leadership debate. we've been discussing ed miliband's question as to who the other candidates has the prestige of them. what is your answer? and they are great answers and all the candidates have brought something to this campaign.

when in new labour leader is elected, we need to unite behind that letter. we did not see that under gordon. we should not stop debating policies. we have to focus our fire on this coalition government. we need to provide the strong opposition. didn't come what may, we're one to see all five of you in the shadow cabinet. >> that as a matter for the parliament. i think everyone has merit. >> all going to be there? >> happy to be there subject to the parliamentary elections. >> let's move on to our next question. >> when you deal with the plight of those who have been

treated unfairly compared to many immigrants and asylum seekers for a period of probably more than 40 years? >> andy burnham, what would you do for this section? >> i do not think that raises the question. it's people's ability to get on a life. i agree with your question labour looked dangerously disconnected from ordinary working people in the schedule. and that is our problem, we've lost sight of who we are. wrong messagehe and confuse people are -- or failure to put affordable housing up and down this country, and i would argue -- >> i see this going up and down the country. the country.