philadelphia, where will they be? >> it will be held at a downtown law firm. it is at a private law firm. it will remain to be seen if specter will have anything to say before or after the event. there is a curious dynamic, here. when it became clear in the primary election, the suspect -- people he grudgingly said that he would support whoever the democratic nominee was. he repeatedly said that he could not imagine a scenario in which he would lose to arlen specter. he could not address the question. i have to think that that is something that our inspector remembers.

>> the u.s. senate candidate for indiana. dan coates, brad ellsworth, and rebecca sink-burris. the first debate is in indianapolis. live coverage, here on c-span. >> good evening. from the university conference center on the campus of indiana university, indianapolis. on behalf of the indiana debate commission, welcome to the first of three debates. i am your moderator. this is the central indiana debate. the northern indiana debate will be held on october 22 in fort wayne. this southern indiana debate will be held on october 25. as part of our mission to put to voters first, you can still submit your questions for the remaining two debates by logging onto our website.

the three u.s. senate candidates will answer questions from voters for the next hour. the jurors will consider the candid answers. the candidates -- immediately next to meet this democrats brad ellsworth. in the middle is libertarian candidate rebecca sink-burris. on the end is a republican dan coates. they have agreed to the rules of the debates. candidates will have one minute and 30 seconds to answer most questions. in announce that one answers length will carry to allow canada it's enough time to answer. as moderator, they cut off a candidate who exceeds the time

or call for additional time to fully answer a question. it is important to note that all of the questions that will be opposed to might come from hoosier of voters and were reviewed by a committee of the indiana debate commission. the candidate note to use only small notes and no props. we reminded members of our live audience of our house rules as well. now the candidates will each have 30 seconds to introduce themselves and we will start with brad ellsworth. >> thank you. thank you for sponsoring this for a tonight. the decision to run for the united states and it was very serious. it should be serious to the people watching this debate tonight. my career was in law enforcement, 25 years. i think there are two things in this debate that are important.

who will work tirelessly to bring jobs back to indiana and who will fight against the special interest in washington d.c. >> in politics this year, there is been a strong sentiment. the old parties have not listened. instead of new voices, they have given us voices from the past. boyce is favored by party leadership, not by the voters. as your libertarian candidate, i am an ordinary citizen running for office. i represent a change that people have been asking for. i represent the ideals that this country was founded on a. >> thank you. i was -- i am an alumni of this institution. i graduated from law school.

this is a serious time and it deserves serious consideration. i am glad we are having this debate. i got into this race because i was distressed about the country -- about the direction our country was heading into. meet the first person who will ask the question of the candidate. she is an attorney in indianapolis. thank you so much for coming tonight. what is your question? >> good evening. indiana's public schools are in a serious state of crisis. what are your specific ideas about how to help indiana's public schools at the national level? including your thoughts on it no child left behind? >> thank you very much. i think of all the things that we will talk about tonight and all the things that we review, it all goes back to our

children's education. that -- there is not a more important investment we can make. when we look at our kids and how they are, it is not all one test one day. i think we need to invest in charter schools, public schools and promoting private institutions. to answer your question about no child left behind, the idea is good. the goal that is good. but it does not work the same way across our country for every child. we need to look at that legislation. surely, we should not even a child behind. the investments we make are very important trade my daughter is a 30-year educator. we should not be having teachers by the tens and papers, protractors, chairs and filing cabinets to help educate our kids. we need to make every effort to make sure that our children get the education they need. >> my background is in teaching.

i have taught in both the public schools and in private schools. i believe that education is much too important to be left in the hands of a government monopoly. like all monopolies, and they do not serve their constituents well. you do not get choice, availability, innovation. it is just a shame and a crime that low income students are trapped in failing schools. that is absolutely -- that absolutely must change. the federal department of education has not been successful. no child left behind is the last of many programs that have not improved education. i think we need to face the department of education out. surely, there are people in each

state who can figure out how to service every child and not leave any child behind. the important thing we must add to education is choice. we have to empower parents to be able to make educational choices for their children. this means allowing the money to follow the child and allowing the parents to choose what school their child gets to go to. one size does not fit all. even children in the same family need a different type of school and education. >> thank you. our constitution states that those powers not specifically enumerated to the federal government should be left to the states. that is our 10th amendment. education is primarily -- primarily falls in the category of state involvement and state control. the federal government has

created a huge bureaucracy in the department of education, which has done little to improve the scores and to improve the education of children and the public school system. states have the flexibility to promote choice, to let parents make those decisions, and to give low-income students the opportunity to escape a feeling school and have the opportunity to gain an education. that flexibility is critical, i believe, in proving our education -- and improving our education system. if we allow the federal government to dictate our children are educated, you get one size fits all. every state is different. every community is different. states are in a much better position to decide what is best for children. cox our next question was submitted by john thompson, a

utility worker who lives in hartsdale. he would like to know, what are the facts, negative or positive, of the obama health care plant and how will hoosiers' be affected? how would you change the plan and why? >> as you know, i voted for the health care plan that came before us. it was important -- when i first started to run for congress, my first meetings were constituents that if you get elected, please do something about the rising cost of healthcare in this country. i am proud that we took it on. i think that it does some great things. it eliminates pre-existing conditions for children and eventually, adults. it closes the doughnut hole for seniors so that when they get to a certain point of using medication, they do not have to go into bankruptcy or stop taking medicine. eliminates the cap so that if you get sick and -- you do not

spend your whole entire savings on your health care. it gives tax breaks to small businesses. that is a very important first step. is the bill perfect? absolutely not. will it be added to and deleted from? it well. but it was a good first step. >> health care is the same as any other service or commodity. it is best provided by the free market. make no mistake, we have not had a free market in health care for quite a while. that is the main problem of why our health care is gone so expensive. when we look at the causes of this expense, we find that government is involved in almost every case. the recent health care bill has done nothing to lower-cost. in fact, it is going to raise costs dramatically. there are unintended consequences. it sounds great to allow

children to not have -- be denied insurance for pre- existing condition, but in real life what happens is that insurance companies stopped offering policies for children. that is happening in our state today. we need to think very carefully. the person we need to change is having it linked to employment. this is left over from world war ii when there was price control and wage control. if everyone got a tax deduction for buying insurance or any medical care needs, that would vary drastically change the set up. it would make the price mechanism worked to bring the price down. >> i think this health-care bill was one of the prime examples of

what is wrong with washington. at a time of economic distress, now moving into its third year, people out of work, the obama administration, nancy pelosi, supported by opponent as he has tested knowledge, fought back coursing through a 2000-page, at trillion dollar health care reform plan for this country rather than focusing on getting us back to work and getting growth growing again. this is a pent-up 25-year liberal wish dream. when they had the votes to push it through, my opponent was one of those very late votes that brought it to fruition. it imposed upon all of us. taxes, mandates, spending. i have talked to dozens of doctors, nurses, practitioners, insurance companies, medical providers. i've found no one who thinks that this is the way to deal with legitimate reform that has

to be made. we can make provisions for pre- existing conditions without passing a mad at 2000-page bill that cost the state $3.1 billion over the next 10 years. it eliminates the help the hoosier plan. all that is out the window. >> our next question comes from a faculty member in indianapolis and is joining us tonight in person. thank you for being here. what is your question? >> in your view, what are the benefits and drawbacks of term limits and how would you vote on such a proposal? >> we are going to change the order of response. >> i think term limits have pluses and minuses. it would very much help in the

case of gerrymandered districts so that we do get more choice and turnover in the congress and senate. politics has become so divided, almost equally between democrats and republicans, that oftentimes, when it comes to a general election, there is only one candidate running. that does not give americans any choice and term limits would help to increase the choice. i think that would be very good and i would vote in favor of that. part of what you lose in term limits, and you have to take this into consideration, is the experience of being in office. that is of value. we do not want to make the term limits to shorts -- too short. >> i introduced the concept of term limits and i pledged

personally that i would live by that pledge. to serve no more than two terms in the senate. that is why i left. the privateered sector and had the wonderful opportunity to serve as the ambassador of germany. i came back to the private sector. i could not stand idly by and watch what was happening to the country i love. watch what was happening to indiana. the massive growth of government in washington is out of control. the spending is out of control. we have to spend all this money, but you have to pay for it with taxes. we have tax rates that will go up for every american citizen, as congress deals with it. yet they adjourn to come home and campaign without taking action. these current tax rates expire

on december 31 at midnight. now congress will rush back in a lame duck session. that is not the way we ought to deal with very serious issues. term limits give you the freedom to know that your decisions, you are not there to build a career for the lifetime, you are there to do the best job that you can. >> thank you very much. i would like to step back because he left a few details out. his 18 years in congress, it they would have dealt with health care then, maybe it would not have come up. it was also endorsed, he had dozens of meetings. i had thousands of meetings about health care. people said we have to do something. little girls that have juvenile diabetes, nurses at have crippling arthritis. i am proud that we took it on.

the ama endorsed it. the american hospital association endorsed it. i think our constitution spells out the way that people are elected. i do not think you have to worry about term limits with me. after his 18 years in congress, when he said he term limited himself, he negotiated his deal with the lobbying firm the first time. he lobbied would and congress. dent he was assigned as the ambassador of germany and then went back and end eight days after he came home, he had another lucrative job with a logging -- lobbying firm. he has done that the last five years. >> you will have the opportunity to began with the next question. let me ask the question. if you have time remaining, you can respond. >> our next question was

submitted by pulte morgan, a retiree from indianapolis. he would like to know, unemployment seems to be the most important issue. it will undoubtedly haunt us well beyond the november election. what are your plans to reduce it? how much will reducing it cost? how do you intend to implement any solutions that you offer? >> i really feel i need to address that previous question. i regret that campaigns have to be turned into a personal accusations. the issues that face the hoosiers are serious enough that we ought to be debating those issues. i guess i have to say that i am not sure where my opponent is coming from, negotiating a deal. the majority leader of the united states senate, george

mitchell, a democrat, and robert dole, both contacted me and asked if after all left the senate, -- when you leave the senate, we would like to talk to you. a number of people said that. under the law, i am not able to negotiate anything, nor do i want to negotiate anything. i took a month off because i did not even want to think about what was next. it was then that they approached me to join in a special counsel. it was a privilege to be passed. -- to be asked. i think that needs to be corrected. i see that i have used my time. i will try to catch up on the question. >> putting people back to work, putting americans back to work is the number-one thing we can

focus on in this country today. the way that we -- we need to not create federal jobs, but to create the atmosphere that allows the private jobs to create and businesses to create jobs. one thing we have to do is cut the red tape for businesses so that they know what to expect. we have to give them permanent tax breaks. that is what is going to forward a private invest and grow our jobs. we have to stop loopholes that allow countries to ship jobs overseas. we have worked on this already and we have to do more. i was in indiana just a few weeks ago and they moved those jobs to mexico and canada. my opponent worked with the lobbyist and consultant for the company that bought it, sold it, part of the deal was to shut down that company and do those

jobs. they qualified for federal assistance. that is where we have to start. >> hoosiers, are you ready for a change? the jobs issue number one. after eight years of bush and now two or three with obama, the situation has not improved. the republicans are running as off a cliff of dead and -- of debt and public -- deficit spending. the democrats blue -- came in and blew it right off the record at 90 miles an hour. they are still going off that cliff. our country is going to take years and years, if we ever recover. libertarians believe that it is

time to change direction. it is time to go back to the founding fathers and their ideals of free market economics, which produces prosperity and jobs for everyone. i can give you two quick examples. in countries, areas like hong kong, singapore, where they have low taxes and low regulation, but they have property rights and the rule of law, the economy is bustling. an economy where it is controlled from the top to the point where people were just told they could raise vegetables for their own use, it was not legal. that is cuba. >> your time has expired. on to our next question. it comes from a scientist from indianapolis. he would like to know -- many fiscal experts believe that extending tax cuts for the

wealthy is fiscally irresponsible. what is your stand on this issue, and why? >> raising taxes on anyone in this economy, in any sector of the economy, it is unconscionable and the wrong direction. especially raising taxes on the very center of our economy that produces new jobs. small business. small-business owners -- this is a tax increase, not just letting the tax cuts run out. it is a giant tax increase. small business will not be able to grow us out of this recession. they are already struggling to bring people back. the health care built piled on top of this, they do not have the confidence to even go out and add more people to their workforce. but the other component of not

raising taxes during a deep recession is to stop digging the hole we are in. we have to stop spending. it really would not be that hard. i hope that i will get the chance to talk about how we can bring about a balanced budget. >> thank you. i will take the opportunity to enter both of those questions. getting americans back to work requires and in this job killing, massive big government efforts coming out of the obama administration. it is supported by nancy pelosi. this is no time to raise taxes. again, you pass massive spending

programs and then you turn around to losers and say, now you have to pay for them. hoosiersturnaround to futur and say, now you have to pay for them. anyone who has talked to job makers in this state, have understood that the health care -- the health care bill put another burden on them. forcing them to think about outsourcing. a president who is anti private business. no wonder they want to think about moving out. we have got to extend these -- they should not be left to run out. >> your time has expired.

>> i can answer pretty quickly. the tax cuts -- the tax breaks should be extended. they were extended for a reason. now is not the time to raise them. we need to reform our entire tax code. it is too complex for small businesses and for families. i would like to go back to something my opponent said. in the same senate debate in 1992, he gave the same answer that he said then. he never did that. he served his 18 years in congress, went to a lobbying firm, and then went to another lobbying firm. he has not paid taxes in indiana and years. he has not held a driver's license and has not voted in

indiana in 10 years. he has a home in virginia and a home in north carolina. he said then that you should move back home with the people that you represent. he never did. >> the joining us here tonight to ask the next question is a retiree and a community volunteer. we are so glad you are here. what is your question? >> thank you. my question is, since the u.s. supreme court's decision in the citizens united case and the u.s. senate's inability to reach a vote on a bill that would require disclosure on campaign contribution, would you pledged to sign on as a sponsor or cosponsor of senate bill 752, the fair elections act? this bill would make officials accountable only through their constituents by allowing canada

to run for office on small contributions and limited public funds. >> thank you. disclosure is important. people need to know who is funding a race. one thing i regret is that the first amendment allows outside groups to put ads either for us or against us. we should be controlling our own voice and our own message. the court has said that outside organizations have first amendment rights. there is more than disclosure. disclosure needs to show where it is coming from the congressman has received more special interest money percentage wise than any other candidate running for the united states senate. based on his own reports. if you're talking about giving

support for hoosiers, i think it is important for them to know where that money is coming from. >> thank you very much. i think that the bill -- of course we want to look at the bill and read the bill on that issue. i disagree with the supreme court decision on this. i respectfully disagree with it. i think the sunshine on where the money comes from in campaigns is extremely important. we have to turn around and correct that in the senate. i would like to correct -- comment on what my opponent just sad. he raised three times the money that i raised. if you look at might relent --

my rolodex is nothing like his. he has taken as -- i would venture to guess, many times more in special interest contributions and i have. he is spending about a five-one to what i am spending on television. at what special interest he has tied himself to. 100 special interest that he worked for personally. 800 pages all lobbying reports, as you sit through that. >> i have taken no money from special interest. i am running my campaign on a small donations from individuals. if there is an independent group

of dairy would like to put on radio ads or tv commercials that would help my campaign, i would welcome back. i would expose where the money comes from. there is a downside. if you live in a small community, you sometimes have to tread very carefully in the political scene because the party in power will often take it out on you if you have donated on the other party. there is a double edged sword here. it is good for openness, but it does -- do not be fooled tonight. by canada it's his sound libertarian when they want to get elected. -- by candidates who sound libertarian and want to get elected. every time they get into office, they reneged on those promises. democrats and republicans both come from the party of big

government. you have a choice this year. you can vote for smaller, constitutionally sound government. >> moderator's privilege. what does he have wrong about you? you have 30 seconds. >> thank you for that opportunity. he has totally mischaracterizes what i had done. we put that out for everyone to see. he has misstated completely and we have proven that. independent sources have proven that. it is a tired old washington game, if you do not want to talk about what your party has done, you put out a distraction. >> i would like to respond.

everything i said is a result of his 800 pages and lobbying. i have documentation, his documentation, either he is not telling the truth or is lost firm -- law firm has not. that is against federal law. the facts are the truth. he talks about -- never once -- >> do you have anything to offer? [laughter] >> i am not beholden to any special interest. i take the constitution seriously. i would govern from that standpoint. using the free-market to build prosperity for indiana citizens rather than government schemes that never work.

>> that is enough of the moderators privilege. now back to our citizens. robert, a retiree, is here tonight. what is your question? >> since the approval rating of congress is so low, would you be willing to sponsor legislation to repeal the generous compensation plan now enjoyed by government officials? >> our first candidate. >> that is a great question. when people are hurting in indiana or across the country, we should pay, too. we should feel that. sign a balanced budget amendment. we should do that. i have supported that legislation, but we do -- when i

could not vote against a raise for congress in my very first year, i gave that race to charity. we were successful in cancelling any kind of race were compensation for members of congress. sometimes you see that we have a lucrative health care bill. i have blue cross blue shield. it is just like everybody else's. certainly, we have to tighten our belts across the board and that includes elected officials. >> yes. i would have no problem with that. i would like to take the pay cuts because right now our country is very much hurting. federal workers get paid double in salary and benefits what a comparable position would pay in the private sector. that is unsustainable and it is wrong and we need to cut those salaries and cut those benefits

and be more in line with what the private sector highs. -- has. it is very important not to set us up as two classes of people. the government does not produce jobs. the private sector produces wealth and jobs. the only sector growing right now is the government sector. it is growing by taking money from your pocket and putting it into the government sector, which never operate as efficiently or politely as the private sector. it is very important for us to rain and those costs that have given an unfair advantage to people in government. >> robert, the answer is yes. congress ought to live by the laws that it asks of citizens.

that would be a very constructive step of going forward and i would be happy to introduce that in congress and the people choose to send been there. we also need to balance our budget, but what we see growing here is congress. the only entity that has not tightened its belt in this very serious recession, the worst downturn in the economy since the great depression, families have had to tighten their belts. businesses have had to tighten their belts. are indiana government has had to tighten its belt. only the federal government has expanded in did -- expanded exponentially. their pay is higher than the average worker in america. i think that needs to be addressed. we will not balance the budget if we go to congress -- eight trillion dollars stimulus bill

that did not stimulate workers and get people back to work. a trillion dollar health-care bill that people do not want an think reforms can be made at far less cost. bail alps -- built out, this building here has been greater than any other time in our history. we are putting our children and grandchildren in debt. >> thank you. next up is amy, and joining us tonight. she is a developed manager from indianapolis. >> thank you. i think americans would like to see the incidence of abortions to go down. what is your view on sex education and birth control? >> thank you for that question. it is an important issue.

however, it is not a federal issue. it is an issue that should be handled at the state level. the state should make the rules about such things, as abortion. different states will have different rules. our founders intended, the states were to be incubators and trying to things. if they did not work out, they could be scratched. at least they would not be sent over the entire country and have a bad effect that way. i am in favor of responsible behavior. there are enough different methods of birth control and this day and age, there should be very few unwanted pregnancies. as far as sex education, i am in favor of school choice. you can have your children educated in the way that you want. whether that includes sex education or does not include sex education, that would be up to a parent.

personally, i find the earlier, and the better. i would like to seek abortions down as low as possible -- see abortions down as low as possible, never paid for by tax dollars. >> i am a believer that life begins at conception. life is given to us by our creator. it is sacred and not the responsibility of government to decide who lives and who does not lives. i believe the unborn need protection and the elderly need protection. this is one of the defining issues, i think, as to we are as a people. we all are used -- always been inclusive to -- not to those who are disabled, those who do not enjoy the full benefits of life that many of us do.

the unborn and the elderly it fall into those categories. as far as sex education and birth control, it is not the responf the federal government. it is a decision that ought to be decided between parents and their children. i cannot support something that would put a federal program or a state program or any kind of government program deciding what to teach my children regarding issues of life, regarding issues of sex education. >> i think that the candidates, are pretty much in agreement of this issue. i am a pro-life democrat. pro-life and folks and pro- choice folks should be working together to cut down on the need for abortion. this argument has gone on and will continue to go on.

the more we can do to work together to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, which will reduce abortions. we agreed that it is all life. respect the unborn and do what is right. all life should be respected. whether that is working together to talk about birth control, sex education, we have to do this so that a woman or a young girl is not forced into the times when they have to make a decision whether to terminate a pregnancy. >> a retirement savings are on the minds of many americans with all the turmoil that has taken place over the past several years. so security is a key part of retirement sick -- social security is a key part of retirement security. are you in favor of privatizing

social security in any way it court -- and argue in favor of raising the age in which americans can receive retirement benefits? we would like to start with dan coates. >> we all know that our entitlement to social security, medicare, medicaid are in serious trouble. there is the number of workers speeding into the fund diminishes. these funds are basing -- facing some crises in the future. for years and years, congress has kicked the can down the road and said, let the next congress deal with that. the time has run out. we need to look at how we can restructure those programs in a way that preserves and saves the hard earned payments that taxpayers have put into those funds and to guarantee -- the guarantees we have to provide

them their retirement income. yes, there needs to be a look at a whole variety of menu of options regarding how we can do that. raising the retirement age is one thing that has been suggested. i think we should take a serious look at that. we did that in 1984. maybe it is a way to go forward to secure social security. there are long-range changes that could be looked at. we ought to have an adult conversation. we need to stop playing politics with. >> your time has expired. to brad ellsworth -- >> i think social security is a successful program. we have done a huge injustice by robbing the fund over the years.

it occurred when we concentrate on putting people back to work, they will be paying into social security. i opposed the privatization of social security. i imagine what would have happened to our social security trust fund had it been privatized. 70 is not that old. when you are on the end of a jackhammer, it is a little different. his position kind of stuns me because he has already endorsed early in the campaign, he endorsed the pulte ryan plan, which does privatized social security. yet, when people started to back off and you -- he changed his position. it is just another example of where he says one thing and comes back and change is with the wind. >> social security is insolvent.

it is a ponzi scheme. unlike bernie madoff, who only hurt a certain number of people, social security is perpetrated on the entire united states. that is what happens when you put government in charge of your retirement. if it is not done well, it hurts the entire country. that is why these things should be handled at the state level. states can experiment and find out what works. anything that we do to social security, so that it does remain solvent, we need to make sure that the elderly are protected. we have to keep those promises. i do not think anyone disagrees with that. statistically, it is a very bad deal for younger workers and it

cannot be sustained in the current way. what we need to do -- i have one suggestion. one way is to take our social security taxes and let the half that the employee pays be put into an account, like a 401k. the government would not be able to borrow for it to pay for general fund spending. >> thank you very much. mark who works as a cashier and lives in indianapolis 7 and our next question. he would like to know the following. in your official role as the united states senator, what would your position be if faced with casting votes on the related issues of the don't ask don't tell policy concerning gays in the military or a constitutional amendment to defined marriage as only between a man and woman?

i would like for each of you to take 45 seconds to respond to this question. >> i do not really understand what the federal government has to do with marriage. whether it is a heterosexual marriage or a marriage of same- sex couples. it is not in the constitution. it belongs at the state level. it should be done through contracts. everyone should have a marriage contract. we can take that problem off. if people want to have a marriage, a traditional marriage, they can go to a church and have their marriage sanctified anyway that they choose. under the law, every person in this country has to be treated equally. as far as don't ask, don't tell -- >> your time has expired, unfortunately. >> i believe marriages between a

man and a woman. that has how it has been since the beginning of time. this does not mean that someone can choose to live an alternative lifestyle. just do not call it marriage. on don't ask, don't tell, i was part of the effort that negotiated that with the democrats. it has worked as effectively because our military had testified significantly on the difficulty of that issue. >> your time has expired. >> i believe that marriage should be between one man and one woman. in regards to don't ask don't tell, i fall in line with secretary gates don't ask don't

tell is coming to an end. we are forcing anyone who is going to go fight for our country and be injured and killed, they should have the right to serve. we are spending billions of dollars kicking good soldiers out of our military. >> now we have reached our final question of the evening. you are back to 90 seconds. joining us tonight is a social worker. what is your question? >> thank you. the current administration vows to change washington and in partisan politics. however, it seems as though the political climate is more partisan than ever. what would you do to encourage more collaboration amongst the parties? >> thank you for that question.

we need to send people to washington -- my career in law enforcement was about resolving disputes. listening to all sides and try to fix the problem as best you can. it was not about republicans and democrats, black and white, rich and poor. that is what people do not like about washington. they want the truth. they want someone to serve the public and not serve themselves. we can stop senators and congressmen from going to be, lobbyists. put a lifetime ban. then they really will come home after they suggest and come home to the people they represent. that needs to happen. civilities to return to washington d.c. no one had a corner on the market on good ideas. we should be working together. i have one of the most independent voting records in

the house of representatives. to critics know that great working together, not stereotyping one side from the other is during important. that -- those are the kinds of people we should research and sent to washington. >> if you want government to change and if you want the atmosphere in congress to change, you need to stop wasting your vote on old parties. you need to send a party to washington who cares about the people in the country and the people in this state. they are not beholden to special interest and not worried about what committee they will get on, someone who has worked with both sides of the aisle as well as combined with people who have agreed on controversial issues and have come together. there are several plans that have been agreed to two people

and are in favor of it. as far as cutting military spending or the way to save social security, i would join with those kinds of people in the senate. you cannot count on the old parties to change. it just is not going to happen. if you continue voting for them, they will continue to ignore you. if you do not vote, they will ignore you. if you vote for a libertarian, they know that you want to change. you have seen it through the smoke screen. you want small constitutionally limited government. do not waste your vote this time. check out my website. >> thank you. >> this is not about civility. our country is in a serious recession.

unemployment is higher than it has been since the great depression. we are entering a third year. we have a government that my opponent supported 90% of the time. it is putting our country -- our children at risk and our grandchildren without the kind of opportunities that we have had. we have a serious problem that we have to address. we have to hold this party responsible for taking us in the wrong direction. we are entering the third year of a serious recession. kids are graduating from college and cannot get jobs. we have a bailout -- we have had

bailout of companies and bailouts of the banks and entities that caused this problem in the first place. the spending is beyond comprehension and we have to put a stop to it. it is by cutting back on washington, going back to principles of limited government. >> thank you. thank you for watching the 2010 u.s. senate debate sponsored by the internet -- indiana debate commission. our thanks to the candidate, dan coates, brad ellsworth, rebecca sink-burris. we would also like to thank our broadcast coverage. we would also like to thank our host, the university conference center. a special thanks to the voters

to ask questions tonight. you can submit your own question to the candidate for the october 22 debate in fort wayne or the october 25 debate. to do so, log onto our website. on behalf of the indiana debate commission, good night. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010]

>> 37 senate seats are being contested this year -- 18 held by republicans, 19 held by democrats. you can see all of the key debates on line at c-span.org. politico is reporting a democratic candidate kendrick meek is in negotiations with charlie crist to drop out of the race. meek is denying this. our coverage of campaign 2010 continues in a few minutes with the candidates running for governor in it michigan -- democrat mayor bernero and

republican rick snyder. after that come up the new hampshire governor's debate. >> what are people watching on the c-span video library? you might be surprised. whether it is events over the past day, the past week, or the past month. see the most popular events we have covered. every program since 1987. watch what you want when you want. a couple of live events to tell you about tomorrow morning. the hot line host a discussion on the midterm elections with members of the house and senate democratic and republican campaign committees. that is on c-span-2 at 8;30 eastern. just after that at 9:00, the atlantic council host of forum on transatlantic missile

defense. that is live on c-span-3. >> now the only debate between the candidates running to be michigan's next governor -- mayor bernero and rick snyder. mr. snyder is the former -- they are seeking to replace the current governor, governor granholm. >> we are pleased that we are broadcasting the only debate between the gubernatorial candidates. tonight's debate is part of myvote.org. debate is one of the debates you will find at the website. 21 community partners make up a

coalition that encourage discussion of issues, policy, and the future of michigan. following the debate, stay on top of the issues at myvote.rog. org. now from the smith studio, public television presents the great debates -- the 2010 gubernatorial debates. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> the great debate is made possible by the following coalition of business, labor, education, and nonprofit groups. from the smith studio, this is the 2010 gubernatorial debate. >> welcome to the great debates from the smith studio at detroit

public television. i'm nolan finley of the detroit news. >> and i'm stephen henderson of on the detroit free press. we're the moderators today for the only televised debates featuring the two major party candidates for governor. joining us today are republican nominee, rick snyder, and democratic nominee, virg benero. >> tonight's discussion will cover a wide range of topics, including economic growth, talent and education, and effective government. each candidate will have one minute to answer direct questions, one minute for rebuttals, and 30 seconds for moderated follow-up. >> we flipped a coin to determine the order of the two- minute opening statements, and republican rick snyder will go first. mr. snyder. >> well, first of all, i'd like to thank the great debate coalition for doing this. why are we here tonight? because we all love michigan. but our state is suffering. we're in economic disaster we have a broken government. it's not the time to talk about the problems or dwell on blame. the key is what's the solution? it's time to reinvent michigan. and to do that i'm bringing a clear, positive vision, a

concise plan, and an attitude of action. the vision, we need to start a new era in our state, it is time for the era of innovation, getting back to our roots of entrepreneurship and innovation. i've got a 10-point plan that really focuses in on jobs, and then an attitude of action. i'm a proven job creator. i want to bring real world common sense solutions to lansing. and for more information on those, please go to our website, rickformichigan.com. the other thing going with this though is we need to repair a broken culture. we need to change our culture in this state. we need to move from being negative to being positive. we need to stop looking in the rearview mirror and look forward. we need to stop being divisive and get rid of this win/lose attitude. it's time to be inclusive and win together. that's the attitude we need. with this framework of vision, plan and action, and this new culture, we'll create more and better jobs, we will keep our young people in the state, and

we will be a great state again. >> mr. bernero, you now have two minutes for your statement. >> good evening. let's be honest, state government isn't working for regular people. the well-connected and the wealthy, they get taken care of, while regular folks are being left behind. people are hurting. families across michigan are struggling to make ends meet, struggling to make their mortgage payment, to hold onto their job, and to get their kids a good education. we don't need corporate buzzwords or mission statements at a time like this. we don't need handouts for wall street or bailouts for companies who shipped our jobs overseas. we need bold leadership, and we need it now. i've got a plan to turn michigan around, to shake up our broken government, and to get this economy back on track. the michigan i grew up in is a michigan of opportunity. not just for the folks at the top, but for everybody. that's the michigan i'm fighting for. and i'm getting results in my city. the lansing region has the second lowest unemployment in the state.

we've laid out the red carpet instead of the red tape for business, and that's working. we've secured half a billion dollars in new investment in my city, 6,000 new jobs. but while i'm busy creating thousands of new jobs here, unfortunately my opponent has shipped thousands of jobs overseas to china in his role as chief executive outsourcer at gateway. but it doesn't stop there. i have to share with you some disturbing news. we've also learned that another of mr. snyder's companies has created jobs in china, as recently as a couple months ago. mr. snyder is the founder and board director of a company called discera. that company just finished a new state-of-the-art jobs creating facility, but unfortunately that facility wasn't built in michigan, it wasn't even built in america. that plant and those jobs landed in shenzhen, china. here's what mr. snyder's chief technology officer told the press, "discera is helping chinese businesses compete and win in the global marketplace."

helping chinese businesses to compete and win, yet you want to be our governor? what about michigan workers? what about the 630,000 michiganders looking for work ? mr. snyder, how could you? >> all right. well, that was a very good start to this debate. mr. snyder, i want to give you a chance right away to respond to what mr. bernero said. do you own a company that is creating jobs in china? >> discera does not have an operation in china. they're based in san jose, california, and they're based in ann arbor, michigan. they're off doing cutting edge technology and they're doing work all around the world to be successful at that. but their locations are san jose, and ann arbor, michigan. that's where their r&d has been done, and that's the technology we've put into use. with respect to the gateway one, those are also untrue. i mean, i've gone through this so many times. at gateway i'm proud of my record, i've helped create 10,000 jobs.

>> you still have more time. >> well, thank you. i helped create 10,000 jobs, and very successfully did that. when the company got in trouble, they asked me to come back. i came back as interim ceo, and i brought jobs back to the u.s. i brought tech support and manufacturing jobs back to the united states. and why did i do that? because i understand the value of the american worker and how it's much better to have high quality and great american workers, instead of low cost labor. >> mr. benero? >> i'd like a rebuttal. >> yes, absolutely. >> look, as far as gateway, either he lied to the sec or he's lying here tonight. he signed off on 10-k forms to the sec clearly approving and certifying the outsourcing that took place. as far as discera, it's on two web sites that they are expanding in china. their own company, discera, that he's on the board of, put out a press release saying they're moving r&d overseas to china, and the specific quote is "we're helping chinese businesses complete and win in the global marketplace." now,

it's astounding to me that somebody would run for governor of michigan, when we have so many people unemployed, when we need to be promoting our technology and getting our businesses on the cutting edge, to think that you're investing this kind of time and money in china. what about michigan? what about workers here that need work? the evidence is clear, we need somebody who's going to stand up for michigan, fight for michigan jobs, that's what i've been doing. when i was fighting for the auto industry, you were busy sending jobs to china. it's incredible. where were you to stand up to the auto industry? >> we're going to go right to the first question of the debate now. the current governor and legislature are leaving a little gift for the next governor, a $1.6 billion dollar structural deficit. i want to know what sacrifices you will ask of michigan residents to help you fill that hole. will government provide fewer services or will michiganders pay more taxes? mr. snyder, you're first. >> in terms of what we need to do, i've talked about this consistently. we need to put in a new budget system, i call it value for money budgeting, that gets to

outcomes and results instead of the broken model today, which is simply about spending billions of dollars on activities and such. and as part of that we're going to have to look at some tough issues. and one of the toughest issues the next governor is going to have to address is public employee compensation. and we need to do that in the light of understanding we're talking about people and their families. so it needs to be done in a very thoughtful way, with a shared sacrifice with people. we also need to do a number of things in terms of service consolidation, between all our jurisdictions. to set the framework for this, i called that a real balance sheet be done for the state, so we can address these questions and get the facts out to the average citizen. no one knows our facts today's, and what i'd love to do is get an opportunity, in plain language, to get a balance sheet out to all of us, so we can see how far beyond our means we've spent. >> mr. benero, what sacrifices will you ask of michigan residents? >> well, it's easy to talk about balanced budgets, it's another thing to deliver it. i've delivered every budget in the city of lansing on time, balanced, with no tax increase.

i've got a aa plus credit rating. my running mate, brenda lawrence, the mayor of southfield, nine times balanced budgets on time, no tax increase, no layoffs, and an aa plus credit rating. that is not easy to maintain in tough times. we did it by setting priorities. we measure outcomes, we know where everything is going, we know where every dollar is being spent, and we're going to do the same thing in the state of michigan. we're going to set the right priorities. we also had to have sacrifice. there was sacrifice all the way around. the workers have given up, they sacrificed. i led by example. i cut my pay, i cut my benefits, i gave up the city car. it's important that sacrifice be shared from the top. you know, when times got tough in lansing, i led the way, i sacrificed. i've asked mr. snyder, when times got tough at gateway, i know 20,000 people lost their jobs, the workers, what did you give up? i know you became a multi- millionaire at that time, you cashed in your stock options, but what did you give up? i know the workers, they had the option to stand in the unemployment line, but what did you sacrifice? >> that's time, mr. bernero. i've got a quick follow-up to that question. do you think you can make

expenses match revenues in lansing, in other words, eliminate the structural deficit in the first year that you're in office? mr. snyder. >> that's absolutely a goal. to say it's a certainty, until you get a chance to dig in it would be difficult to say that. because my view is, it's only when you get there will we get to the full extent of all the issues. if you looked at the last budget, there's a lot of concerns about the budgets that are there, are those numbers really even going to happen. so not only is next year a problem, i'm still concerned about whether we're going to have a hole for the current year when we reevaluate revenues and expenses. >> mr. benero. >> we can and we will, we can and we will balance the budget, without gimmicks. and we're not going to rob peter to pay paul. if money is set aside for one thing, like the school aid fund, that's what it will be spent on. again, i've got experience doing this. i've done it when i was in the legislature, i balanced the budget on time with the legislature, we actually met our obligations. and as mayor, five times in a row balanced budgets, no tax increase. every year i had people saying we need to increase taxes, we tightened ourbelts, we're delivering more bang for the buck, and what we've done in the city of lansing, we can do in the state of michigan.

>> gentlemen, this issue of outsourcing jobs to china is now dominating two elections in michigan. mr. benero, i want to ask you first, can michigan and its businesses play in a global marketplace without engaging china? >> well, engaging china is one thing, and shipping jobs and r&d -- the important thing about this discera position is they're shipping r&d, they're actually helping vital r&d, moving that and helping china to be on the cutting edge, not just shipping jobs there. look, it's a global economy, we have to operate as a global economy. in lansing we are competing and winning. we've grown manufacturing, advanced manufacturing , every month this year. we've recently, in fact it will be voted on monday night at council, secured 160 new jobs for a medical manufacturing company, symmetry medical. we were competing with indiana and malaysia, indiana and malaysia? but we won those jobs in lansing, michigan, so i know we can compete and win. now, regardless of the fact that rick snyder, my opponent, told the grand rapids press that manufacturing should be put to bed, i don't agree with that.

i think manufacturing was a great part of our past and also a vibrant part of our future, the green automotive future, the green technology, wind turbines, you name it, we can be in the business of manufacturing, we can win, we have to use the incentives, we have to use every tool in the tool box. we're doing it in lansing, michigan, we're proving it every day. >> mr. snyder, same question to you, can michigan and its businesses play in the global marketplace without engaging china? >> well, we absolutely need to play everyplace. that's how you succeed in a global economy. and we've got the core to do that. and to go to my opponent's comment there about manufacturing, manufacturing i've been a big advocate of. in fact, the michigan manufacturers have endorsed me. and so that just shows, i mean, the distortions, again, that we have to suffer through in terms of the important issue. the other thing i would share with you is going back to the other points, on gateway and all these kinds of charges, actually i will give you a quote from the michigan truth squad on mr. benero's tv ad called tough. "its attacks on snyder for being responsible for gateway's outsourcing are simply untrue."

it's too bad that we can't talk about the real issue, which you're getting to, nolan, is jobs, jobs, jobs. we need to stay focused on that, and we need to be looking at how we can export products out of michigan all over the world in terms of opportunity for the future. >> a rebuttal, mr. bernero? >> yes, please. >> okay. >> the truth of the matter is, that the economic development that mr. snyder engages in is primarily for himself and his friends and his pocketbook. another company that he list s on his web site is one that he promoted, handylab, just recently was sold. and it was sold to you, i think, for the price of about $275 million dollars. i don't know how much of that you pocketed from personally, but 50 people are now unemployed in ann arbor, because those jobs are going to another state. meanwhile i just won a medical technology company, symmetry medical, in lansing. so i'm fighting and winning, i'm fighting for my people, i'm fighting for residents of the state. he's fighting for his own pocketbook. and at gateway you signed off on those documents. look the folks in the face, look the michigan residents in the face and tell them that you

didn't sign those documents to the sec, rick, that you didn't sign off on them, and you were responsible for them. you want to play this shell game that you were ceo or coo or on the board, the point is, you were in a position of responsibilities, why didn't you exercise that responsibility, why didn't you fight the outsourcing? i was fighting general motors, fighting to keep our jobs here, fighting for the auto industry. why didn't you fight against the outsourcing? >> mr. snyder, would you like to respond? >> well, yeah. there he goes again. i mean, he's being very consistent at least. i think if he says it enough times it will become true. i mean, these allegations are just incorrect. that's why i talked about the michigan truth squad and such as a third-party source of that. i mean, we need to be talking about the job of today. the real issue that matters here is we've lost a million jobs in michigan. let's put michiganders to work. that's the environment. i'm the proven job creator in this race. >> well, i'd like to ask a follow-up along those lines then. mr. benero, how do you create a job? >> well, you set the table for it. that's what government does. that's what i've been doing in

lansing. i have $500 million dollars in new investment in my city, i have cranes in the air, we have a great economic development team. we've laid out the red carpet instead of red tape, we've cut the bureaucracy. city bureaucracy is down 20 percent. we've put out the welcome mat for business. that's how government can be involved in creating jobs. and we've done it, we're getting results. the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. we have cranes in the air, we have people coming to lansing. we've laid out the environment. and we need to do that in the state of michigan. i think i'm the one who's equipped to do that. >> mr. snyder, how do you create a job? >> well, you don't do it by being in government. government doesn't create jobs. government creates an environment where jobs can flourish. i know what it takes to create jobs, i've done it many times, and i know what it takes during tough times to keep a company going. one of our companies came to a point where the lights were going to go off. and the other co-founder and i wrote personal checks, talking to our spouses, seeing what we could do to keep that company going. and it later went on to be a success. but it's by that determination. it is hard work to creat jobs.

and let's get our government out of the way. we have a closed for business sign up in michigan right now. we need to be open for business. >> well, mr. snyder, steve asked you all earlier about sacrifice, and taxpayers in michigan, many taxpayers in michigan would like a lot of that sacrifice to come from the public sector workers who have seen their incomes grow 15 percent over the last decade, while per capita income in michigan fell 21 percent. how much can public sector workers expect to get back under your administration? >> well, there are two parts to that. the first piece i say is we need to look at what's comparable with the private sector, and then secondly we need to ask what's financially affordable. those are the two benchmarks. but we also always need to remember, we're talking about people and their families. this is a serious issue. and so we need to come up with a solution to last for the long term. how we've done it lansing the last few years is a failure. it's a piecemeal approach. it's talking about retirement one year, healthcare the next time, it's the death of a thousand cuts. my view is, let's get compensation on the table to see how we do shared sacrifice, including the governor being part of that process. it's all sharing in what needs

to be done to get government on a positive path where people don't need to be looking over their shoulders to be tapped on again, and they can focus on being more productive, more excited and looking towards the future instead of looking over their shoulder all the time. >> mr. benero, what sacrifice can public workers expect? >> well, if you want to know what a person's going to do, the best thing is to look at what they've done. and when times got tough in lansing, i led by example, i cut my pay, i doubled what i paid for health insurance, i gave up benefits. i didn't just ask the workers to sacrifice, and i'll do the same at the state of michigan. i asked mr. snyder to say what sacrifices he made at gateway when we became a millionaire while those jobs were outsourced, i didn't get an answer. i asked how many millions he made when handylab was sold to him when he was president. he talks about jobs he's created, that must have been in the distant past. because the only jobs we can find that he's creating now are in china, are overseas, or in another state. we need somebody who's going to create jobs here in michigan. that's my track record, that's what i've done, and that's what we need to be doing, is growing our economy for michigan people, putting michigan people

to work. that's what i've done. know we can compete, because we're doing it, and we're competing using economic incentives. my opponent has said he's against the use of economic incentives. i say we have to use every tool in the toolbox, we can't afford to be hamstrung, to tie our hands behind our back, when we're in a global economy, we are in a battle for our future, we've got to use every tool available. >> mr. snyder, you've indicated you want to rebut? >> yeah. well, i wanted to give virg credit. i mean, he's a great talker in terms of he gets several points in for every one i have a chance to respond to because of speed. that doesn't mean there's substance there. so that's one of those things we need to look at. in terms of gateway and my success there, the success i had was due to the building of the company. that all happened before any jobs and the collapse of the company. the company went through extremely difficult economic times. when i got out of the company -- actually it's interesting, the mayor doesn't realize i used to set up two venture firms in our state. most of those proceeds came back to build businesses in michigan and create jobs in our state. and that's what we need to look to do in the future. it's about having success, and taking that success to build

the next success. >> if i may have a quick follow-up. mr. snyder, will you follow detroit mayor dave bing's lead and forego your salary as governor. >> nolan, that's a very good question. i haven't answered that when people ask me for -- i intend to make some sacrifice, and i should. that's only part of that. but the reason i haven't answered that question is i didn't want it to be viewed as pandering, i didn't want people voting for me just because i said i wouldn't take the dollars. so i will clearly take same major sacrifice, because it's the right thing to do for our state. >> mr. bernero, will you forego your salary? >> well, you're kind of hilarious, nolan. i'm not a multi-millionaire like my opponent. i'm sure that i will cut my pay, as i said, i'll sacrifice along with the other state workers, but i can't simply reach into my pockets from years of corporate gains and stock shares that i've cashed in on, so, no, i'll need a salary to support myself and my family. >> okay. next question goes to mr. bernero first. for years our chief strategy

for creating jobs in michigan has been to buy them with tax incentives, which is one of the things we're seeing with the very popular film credits right now. is that the right approach, and if not what other things would you do as governor to encourage business growth? >> well, i wish it was that we didn't need tax incentives. my opponent has taken kind of a philosophical approach saying that we should do away with tax incentives. i disagree. think that would be unilateral disarmament. i may not like the global economy that we're in, there's a lot of things i'd like to change about it, but it's where we are and we have to compete and win for those jobs today. we're doing it in lansing. so i believe it's a question of math, and not of politics. if the economic incentives are working, we're going to use them. and we have used them very effectively to pull down $500 million dollars in new investment in my city, 6,000 new jobs. it is working. as far as the film tax credits, i hate to pull the rug out from underneath them right now. i'm starting to see some real investments of infrastructure in our state, but we need to see those investments, and we need to look at the whole picture. we need to look at the actual dollars brought, and the economic impact, the ripple

effect, the small businesses that are being attracted and so on. if it works, financially, if it makes sense, we'll keep it. if it's not, we'll throw it out. we can't afford to be ideologically based in terms of bias one way or another about these things. if they're working we keep them. if not, we throw them out. >> mr. snyder, you've been a critic of the film tax credits. would you keep them, and what other things would you do to try to create economic growth? theell, let's take about incentives for a minute. and it is a math problem. and the math problem is, you don't create jobs by buying people into our state and giving huge checks out to people. you create jobs by having free enterprise work. and you have free enterprise work by having the most level competitive playing field you start with. why do we have these massive incentives? it's been in large part because we have a broken tax and regulatory system. so instead of putting a band- aid on something, instead of addressing a symptom, let's fix the underlying issue. it is time to eliminate the michigan business tax. it should be replaced with a flat 6 percent corporate income tax. our regulatory environment's also messed up in this state.

and if we get our act together, there should be much fewer need for incentives in general. the incentives have largely been a political gimmick. the idea that we're going out to bring in a few large out of state companies here with massive incentives is not the answer. the comeback of michigan are michigan businesses being started right here in our state with michiganders. >> okay. as you both know -- this question goes to mr. snyder first -- i solicited free press readers for questions. the one i chose came from a young man named daniel o'connor, who's a graduate student at michigan state university, and he lives in royal oak. he asks, "the growing section of our economy is services and the growing section of our population is retirees, yet under the current tax system both are largely shielded from taxes. as governor, would you support a revenue neutral structural tax reform bill that shifts the burden towards services and retirees and away from other job providers who would entice more professionals and young families to michigan. mr. snyder? >> that's not how you address tax reform. in terms of going after it, the starting point in our state,

given the environment we have, is we have to get rid of the job killer, and that's the michigan business tax. it is fundamentally unfair. it simply needs to be replaced, and i propose replacing it with a flat six percent corporate income tax. that would take the business burden off of most small business, because they're not even corporations. that's the right altitude. we need to go from job killer to job creating. it would make us among the most competitive in the country. the next tax on the list after that that is creating havoc is the personal property tax. and that's the environment that i'm getting recognition from across the state when i go to town halls. people want to see the mbt go away. as i said on the campaign trail, they when brought it in it replaced the single business tax. it's just like lansing went to the video store and rented dumb and dumber. >> mr. benero? >> it's funny that my opponent talks about dumb and dumber. he's got one of them working for him. one of the guys who authored the michigan business tax that he wants to eliminate is actually brian calley who's the lieutenant governor. so i guess if you don't want

dumb and dumber you better not vote for the republican ticket. look, we need real reform, there's no question about that, and we're going to get that. we need make michigan the number one place in the country to do business, and we can do that. of course, the mbt surcharge is going to go. brian calley helped create it, and i'm going to eliminate it. i'm going to come up with a fair, equitable, and predictable tax system. and we're going to work with the business community to do that. but i'll never increase taxes on small business, which is what his six percent would be. for a lot of people a lot of businesses were paid 1.8 percent, 6 percent would merely treble their tax bill. -- nearly treble their tax bill. i'll never do that to small business. and yes, we need to reform the tax system, but not with a regressive system. i'm afraid the proposal that came in from the reader would be regressive, and so i couldn't go that way, and i can't increase taxes, at a time like this it's the last thing we need to do is to increase taxes on small business for folks that least afford it. >> do you want a rebuttal, mr. snyder? >> well, sure. i think it's appropriate. i mean, it's one thing how you address things, it's another to be negative on people. and to make a comment about my lieutenant governor candidate, i mean, that's just not the right

way. brian calley actually fought hard to put in that provision he talked about, the small business credit, to really bring down the burden on small businesses. he was a leader in doing that. and to put it in perspective, your comment about increasing tax liabilities is inaccurate. because, again, it's getting to the facts. it takes that burden out of proprietorships, s corporations, and sole proprietorships. they wouldn't pay any tax under the system, because they're paying a double tax today. so we don't need to get bogged down on taxes, other than to say the mbt is really bad. and simply reducing the surcharge is not the answer. if you have a dumb tax and you reduce it by 20 percent, you still have a dumb tax. it fundamentally needs to be eliminated. >> mr. benero, you've called for a moratorium on mortgage foreclosures in michigan. are you worried about the unintended consequences of such a measure, such as more people deciding not to mail in their monthly payment? >> i'm worried about the consequences of the fraud and the problems, the mistakes that are happening from wall street that's pressing down on our people. we need to stop that

immediately. i'm delighted, pleased that bank of america has said they're going to stop in michigan immediately. we need the other wall street banks to follow suit. we need a moratorium for all the people in michigan, so that they can review their practices and know what they're doing. i say, nolan, we should err on the side of the homeowner. let's err on the side of keeping people in their homes. the vast majority of people, nobody's trying to trick the bank, nobody's trying to hold back. people are good people who are going to pay their bills. but, you know, i just find it interesting, my opponent is willing to side with the banks, to immediately assume that they're doing everything right. i can't assume that, i've seen too many mistakes. we fought to keep thousands of people in their homes in michigan, in lansing, through a program called holdontoyourhome.org. i've seen how people have been treated by the big banks, they can't even get through. we need to err on the side of keeping people in their homes. it will help not only them, but all the other folks who are struggling, all the other folks who are impacted by it. when one person, when a home goes down, the property values of all the others suffer. >> thank you. mr. snyder, next question to you, you call yourself -- i'm

sorry, we missed you? okay. we don't want to rush. >> no, that's fine. i appreciate that. in terms of the issue of a moratorium and such. first of all, people are suffering. this is extremely difficult economic times. but a blanket moratorium isn't right, and the mayor had called fro a two-year moratorium across the board on mortgages, i believe. i believe president obama came out today and talked about now that would not be a good idea. and in fact if you looked at the moratorium idea, the last time that was done was back in the depression, and that led to the bank holiday and the bank being closed, when 34 states did the same thing. we have to have good programs to help people that are suffering. they're there and he need to deal with those appropriately. the other thing is that if any bank's doing anything wrong, there are rules to deal with that. and we need to strongly enforce those rules. because if someone's out of line, particularly when you're talking about someone's home, we need to stand up for those people and deal with the banks that are doing the bad things. >> you want a rebuttal? >> um-hum. >> we have to remind, gentlemen, under the rules you two negotiated, you each got three

rebuttals and this will exhaust those rebuttals for both candidates. >> well, i just wanted to give a news flash to my opponent that in fact the banks have done plenty of things wrong, and the rules aren't working. this might come as a shock to you, i know it doesn't so much affect the people at the top, but regular folks are being put upon, the banks are getting way with murder. i'm here to tell you. we see it every day. there's an example of it in your newspaper, stephen. there's -- just read the free press if you want the evidence of it. and i can give you a whole lot more from the folks at holdontoyourhome.org. i'm sure you can talk to your folks in ann arbor. there's plenty of abuse going on all around this state, with people being kicked out of their homes. it needs to stop now. and so yes, i say err on the side of keeping people in their homes, don't err on the side of the banks. they've made plenty of mistakes, they've hurt plenty of people and thrown them out when they didn't deserve it. and you can see there's a clear difference here. my opponent says the rules are working fine. if you think the rules are working fine and the banks are treating people fairly, he's your guy. i don't believe that, i'm going

to takes action, i'm going to use my position as governor to protect regular folks who are being put upon by wall street. >> thank you. now for that next question. mr. snyder, you call yourself one tough nerd. the nerd part we get. but are you tough enough to play political hard ball when the situation calls for it? >> absolutely. i'm proud of my track record. as a successful business person you need to learn how to deal with people, both in terms of dealing with customers, suppliers, all those kinds of situations, and i've been very successful at working through those. and in fact, one illustration i'll give you from the gateway experience was we had to negotiate patent licenses with people in order to be able to sell our products. and the companies i had to negotiate with were people that wanted for put us out of business, compac, dell, ibm, very adverse situations. and i was able to work through those effectively and make situations where we could respect one another, we fundamentally disagreed, but we were able to come up with tough conclusions. also i've got a great track record in the community setting. i helped build ann arbor spark, i wrote their business plan and

was their founding chair. and that was educating. so not adversarial situations, but by bringing the community together, of the universities, the private sector, the public sector, and create a partnership that led to many jobs being created in our community. >> and, mr. benero, you've called yourself the angry mayor, is anger an effective tool for building much needed bipartisanship in lansing? >> well, i was dubbed the angry mayor by fox news or cnn when i was fighting for the auto industry. and i don't mind that, because i think a lot of people are angry and a lot of people are hurting. it's not enough to be angry, it's how you use that anger and that passion, and i've used it to stand up for working people, and i'm produce of my record. and, you know, look i've had to fight people that wanted to increase taxes in lansing, i've gotten the job done. the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, and i've gotten the job done in the city of lansing. it's tough to govern, it's touch to be mayor of a city. mayopr oough to be f a city. it's going to be even tougher to be governor, so you better be tough. and you better be able to

channel anger and passion. my opponent says he's tough enough. he's certainly tough enough to profit and send jobs overseas and to send jobs to other states, he's tough enough to stand up and pocket money even when people here are losing their jobs. so he may be a little tougher than me in certain regards, but i put my anger, my passion to good use, i think, and i'm ready to do the job as governor, to lead this state forward. >> next question to mr. benero first. the recent documentary, waiting for superman takes a pretty hard swipe at teacher tenure. and of course, here in michigan we have some of the strongest tenure laws in the country. you have the strong support of teacher unions in this state. if you're elected, can you stand up to them and ask them to take another look at tenure and maybe revisit whether it's time for reform? >> i haven't seen the movie yet, but, stephen, you may know my wife is a 20 year plus public educator, and my heart goes out to all those educators out there, especially the first educators, the parents, who are doing the job with our children. i appreciate what you do day in and day out. education is near and dear to our heart. we think every child in michigan deserves a quality, top quality public education, and i'll work hard every day with my wife at my side to make sure

that happens. teacher tenure, i'm happy to revisit that. i mean, who better to do it, to talk to the unions about it, than somebody who's been working with them? you know, if you look at my record as mayor, i've stood up, i haven't always been able to say yes to the unions. i appreciate their support, but they've had to make concessions, they've had to sacrifice, just like the uaw at gm, my uaw at the city has made sacrifices. again, i made sacrifices. do we have to change the way we do things? absolutely. we're all going to have to change. we've got to compete and win in today's economy. the teachers i know want those kids to compete and win, and we'll do what it takes to make sure that that happens. >> mr. snyder, is it time to revisit teacher tenure? >> absolutely. that and many other things. we have a failed education system. the kids are not the goal anymore. it's too much about spending money when you go to lansing. all they talk about in lansing is this funding level or that funding level. the fundamental question behind it all is what we need to do to get our kids an education each and every year that's very successful. and we need to look at tenure, we need to look at merit. there are many things we need to look at.

but we do want our frontline teachers to be successful. it's not about being hard on them, it's about creating an environment for success, and letting them win and feel empowered. now, with respect to the dollars and how that works in terms of are you being influenced, i'm the candidate that stood up and said, last year before i became an announced candidate, that i wouldn't take a dollar of tax or special interest money. -- of pac or special interssest money. i'm proud to say i can look anyone in the eye and say i have no baggage, i'm a self-made person. i have no special interest ties. my only interest is to represent all the people of the state of michigan. >> the next question goes to mr. snyder first. michigan's troubled urban centers need help, and typically the discussion about that in the state centers around revenue sharing, which we all know has been dwindling in recent years. i'd like both of you to talk about ways other than revenue sharing that lansing might be able to aid places like detroit or lansing or saginaw or flint. mr. snyder? >> sure. if you look at one of the roles as governor is not to run the cities, but to be their best partner. and i'll use detroit as an

illustration because i've said the only way michigan can be a great state is if detroit is on the path to being a great city. and the right way to do that is to partner. and mayor bing is an outstanding illustration and the city council there. we've got a great opportunity, but on their own they're going to run into structural barriers. and the state should be there to help break through those barriers, to do what needs to be done. and that gets to things like value for money budgeting. let's take a new approach on how we allocate our dollars where they actually show meaningful, legible, tangible outcomes that positively impact real people instead of simply sending dollars. the other is, is we should be looking at our communities on how we engage the neighborhoods more. it's not about lansing doing everything. one of the words i really don't like is, i'm here from landing, -- from lansing, i'm here to help. that make me nervous. so how do we engage our communities, and really do public, private partnerships where we do things on the ground, with the people there taking the charge and making the difference. >> mr. benero, what about help from lansing? >> well, as you know, brenda

lawrence and i are mayors on main street, we are two mayors from main street. if anybody knows what our cities are up against, it's us. we face it every day. we're on the front lines. we make sure that the 911 calls get answered, that the potholes get filled, and that the garbage gets picked up. we're also working with small business everyday, negotiating with small business, medium business, and even big business. we're negotiating in lansing with gm for a new global platform, a $200 million dollar expansion that will be 640 jobs. so we're on the frontlines doing it. our cities need to be the hub of the wheel and not the hole in the donut. detroit is the face of michigan. anybody who believes that we're going to move michigan forward and leave detroit behind is kidding themselves. we need to look at economic development policy, education policy, transportation policy, yes, revenue sharing policy. we need to look at all those in terms of how it affects our cities. the fastest growing states have the fastest growing cities in them. and we ignore that at our own peril. that's not just coincidence. we need to pay attention to our cities, we need to do a better job, and look at my economic development plan at votevirg.com. i've got specific strategies and an urban agenda to help bring back our cities. we must do this.

>> mr. benero, the census numbers released last week drew a direct link between a state's educational attainment and its prosperity. what would you do to fix the public schools, to support the universities, and make michigan smarter? >> i appreciate the question, nolan. you know, we've been talking about economic development as though it's just bricks and mortar and jobs and companies. and, of course, those are very important. we need to be investing here in michigan and not overseas or have our jobs go to another state. but we also have to recognize, as i think your question does, that education is economic development. that's where it begins. when i travel around the state somebody asked me once, what's the next big thing for michigan. you know, if we had cars -- and, of course, i'm not giving up on cars, but what after cars? what's the next big thing? i thought about it for a minute, and my answer was, the next big thing is in the mind of a child sitting in a classroom in detroit, or in bloomfield, or in pontiac, or in grand rapids, or in flint. the next big thing is in the mind of a child. and we have to make sure that every child is nurtured, that

every child gets that quality education, a full all day kindergarten, and a good classroom education with music, art, and pe, and support our great university system, because that's where economic development begins. >> mr. snyder, how do you make michigan smarter? >> well, that's absolutely critical. and education's the forefront of that. and that's one reason i like to talk about the system, not in separate buckets, but as p20. early childhood through lifelong learning. that's what really matters. and you start with the early childhood, and it's not the government doing it, it's public private partnerships. we need to reinforce that and give the kids an opportunity at the youngest ages, particularly when they're in a disadvantaged situation. k through 12, again, that's a situation i talked about. lansing talks about funding, it's all about spending money. let's start talking about how we measure success, how we make sure the kids are getting a great education each and every year, and look at merit and opportunities for teachers to succeed. and then our higher-ed system, we're truly blessed with one of the best systems in the world. but we need to engage them more in the process.

first of all, they need to be more cost efficient. they need to be looking at things like value for money budgeting and bring down the costs because tuition's too high. but at the same time they're one of our key economic development angles. that's one of the ways, if we're really going to succeed, is engaging them more in our economy, because it's about jobs, jobs, jobs. >> quick follow-up, gentlemen. if you're going to make education a priority, assume you're going to spend more money on it, what will you spend less money on, welfare, corrections? where will you get the money to make education a priority? mr. benero? >> well, i'll tell you, nolan, i've balanced five straight budgets with no tax increase. every year i had council people saying we've got to increase taxes, we're going to need more money. we tightened our belts, we're doing more with less. i led by sacrificing myself. i got $42 million dollars in -- i cut $42 million in deficit, and, look, we're going to have to tighten our belts in state government. i intend to conduct a forensic audit, i intend to find out where every dollar is spent. i intend to implement something

called my stat, similar to lansing stat that i've done in lansing, to measure every dollar so we know where it's coming from. we're going to be more efficient, and we're not going to go to the people and say you've got to pay more so that we can continue to do the same thing the same way. >> mr. snyder, same question to you, what would you cut to provide more funding for education? >> well, nolan, that's part of that whole process of value of money. the specifics in that would, again, be back to public employee compensation for people in the educational system. we need to look at that. but, again, we have to recognize you're talking people and their families. the other thing is, we need to look at service consolidation. we have 500 plus school districts and the charter schools. between all those school districts, there's got to be a way to have more opportunity, not for legal consolidation, but for service consolidation, in terms of adding efficiencies. i believe the dollars are there. we need to be looking at those dollars about how we can supply them better on the frontlines. >> mr. snyder, your opponent tonight as tried to paint as a heartless ceo. how can voters be sure if you're elected governor you won't be carrying the chambers water, but you'll be representing the interest of the taxpayers and all the people of

michigan? >> well, nolan, that's why i said i wouldn't take a dollar of pac or special interest money. because i don't want any ties. we need a governor representing all the people. and my whole campaign is about being inclusive and winning together, that's been the focus. and i grew up in a 900 square- foot home back in battle creek. i worked my way through college, so i understand those challenges. i mentioned earlier about keeping a company going by writing personal checks, again, to keep those jobs for people. that's the kind of attitude. and i've given a lot back to the community. we need to stay in touch. i helped create ann arbor spark, an organization to creat jobs. and it came through big time when pfizer closed up and we lost 2,000 jobs. we were able to keep over 800 people and their families in our state with that altitude, and that's the approach i'm going to bring to lansing. it's about michiganders working and winning together. >> mr. benero, your campaign is heavily financed by labor unions. will you be able to say no to those labor unions when it comes time to enact reforms that they may object to?

>> if you want to know what a person's going to do, look at what they've done. i've stood up to the unions when i had to in my city. i would not have a, aa plus credit rating if i had given the unions everything they wanted, obviously. we led together, we worked together. my label leaders sat with me at -- my labor leaders sat with me at the table, we attacked problems instead of attacking each other. and they have made concessions, they have made painful concessions. i gave things up, my cabinet members gave things up. that's the way it's got to be. i asked before, what did mr. snyder give up when those workers were eliminated at gateway, when the workers were eliminated at handylab, what did he give up? the price tag was $275 million dollars for that company, he got out while the getting was good as ceo. look, i've been standing up for main street, i've been standing up for regular people. his experience is something else. he's involved in economic development, yes, but it's for himself and the folks at the top. i'm worried about everybody. i'm worried about the community. i think when you create a middle class, that's when you create the future. that pays off. there's a magic about taking

care of the people in the middle, not just the people at the top. >> next question goes to mr. benero first. we've all become very fond of saying this is the era of bipartisanship. so in that spirit, i'd like each of you to tell me what about your opponent's campaign you really like, and tell me what would worry you about him being governor it he's elected. mr. benero. >> well, stephen, of course there's very little about his campaign i like. as far as him, i like the fact that he's a family man, that his family is included. he talks about his wife helping him make the decision to run for governor. that's similar to my situation. i appreciate that, i respect that. you know, i kind of like the bus. he calls it the nerdmobile. i kind of like it. i can't afford one, but -- i like the town hall meeting if he would invite regular folks, you know, and have it be a debate. i offered -- you know, this is our only debate we're getting. i wanted more debates. i said, let's -- and i appreciate how you treated me when i came to the one, but, you know, they were folks that were for rick. and they were very polite to me,

but i said let's have some real town hall meeting, let's invite people who haven't made up their mind. let's get a big auditorium and have a real town hall. because you call it a town hall, but let's have a real one. and, you know, he wasn't agreeable to that. so this is the only debate, the only chance that people are going to have. i feel really bad about that. i wish that, you know, he would come back with the three. originally he agreed to three, i wanted eight, he took the three off the table, so we have just this one debate. it's a real shame. i think people deserve more time to see us answer questions unscripted. >> mr. snyder, are there ideas that are part of mr. bernero's campaign that you can use, and if he's elected, what would worry you about him? >> well, i'm running a positive campaign, so to be blunt i'm going to pass on the second part of that. but in particular, i mean, i give the mayor credit. he loves michigan, that's why we're both doing this. we love our state and we have a state that's suffering. the other one is, as he mentioned with my family, i really respect his family. i've had the opportunity to actually have a dinner where his daughter was sitting at the same table, and he's got a great family, and that's something to be admired and respected. so in terms of those things, we

want to have good people in the political process. in terms of the issues, again, we don't have a lot in common in term of how we approach things. i'm a positive person and, unfortunately, we've had too many negative things go on. but i'm not going to spend time on that. i will go back to his comment though that he made comments about handylab and some of our other companies. in fact, when the company was sold, many, many of the employees shared in that, and they had an opportunity win. they weren't excluded from that process. they had stock ownership, just like i had stock ownership in gateway. it was the same method that i shared, they shared. and i believe in that, and having them participate in that process and having the opportunity to win, and now they're going off to create new companies. many of the people had already left and they're being serial entrepreneurs in other places. >> next question to mr. snyder first. states that have healthy income growth all have one thing in common, they generously support their institutions of higher ed. meanwhile here in michigan, we're one of only a handful of states that spends more on prison then we do on higher-ed.

if you're elected governor, would you change that, and if so, how? >> well, we do need to invest in higher ed. higher ed is one of the great assets of our state. we have our natural resources, we have our higher-ed system, we have several other things, but those are the gems we have, but they're being threatened in terms or our higher ed systems. and a lot of that we do need to get to this issue about being more efficient though. we do need to ask them to look at new ways of doing things, again, focusing on being the very best on the front lines, with instruction and research and helping our kids succeed, but it has become too costly. the other thing is, i think we need to look at need-based assistance to our students. again, the michigan promise, which helped everything was really noble, but in terms of priorities we need to help kids in the biggest need, and we need to define need more broadly. because there are people in the middle that need an opportunity to get their kids to college. so let's create an environment of success, and let them go ahead and have an opportunity to get a great education. i know what it's like, i paid for my own. i worked my way through school. and today that would be very difficult, given the cost

features that they face today. >> mr. benero. >> thank you. well, certainly we need to reverse that trend, and we've got to do a better job with our corrections system. if we had another hour we could debate about the corrections system, but no doubt we need to do a better job. a recidivism rate of 40 or 50 percent is far too much. we spend a lot of money for people in prison, and basically we're not dealing with their addictions and the issues, the mental health issues and others. we need to do a much better job on the front end, getting people mental health treatment, getting them treatment for their addictions, so that they don't end up in prison we can save a lot of money, which we can redirect to education. and i want to give a shout-out to all the students out there. i know there's a lot of students watching, and debate parties, and debate gatherings. thank you for your interest. you can make a difference. this is your state, too. we're looking out for you, we want to stop the brain drain, we want you to stay here. i intend to restore the michigan promise. my opponent is in the detroit free press today saying he's opposed to that, i don't know if that's correct, rick, but that's what it says. look, we need to arm our prisoners with education. we know that's the common denominator, that a lot of them have dropped out of school. so let's do a better job, and we'll be able to put more money

into education. and we've also got to convince the universities to keep tuition costs down, come on, share with us and tighten your belts, so that we can stop this constantly increasing tuition. >> quick follow-up to that, mr. snyder. do you support increasing funding for pre-k and other early education programs far children zero to five, especially those aimed at low income families, and if so, how would you pay for it? >> well, we talked about that a little bit before, because it is something that we would need to find the resources for. before we start talking about the government doing it though, i'd like to take leadership about how we do it in public- private partnerships. that's been my success. i go back to my days, even in sioux city, when i was at gateway, they had a fabulous program, and i was part of it, the united way, called success by six. it was a public-private partnership that came out of minneapolis. they did fabulous work on helping those kids in that age group succeed. before we look at the government, again, showing up with people from lansing and saying we're here to help, let's figure out how we can work together through our communities and have the government play a coordinating resource.

>> mr. benero? >> look, again, this is science and not politics. we know how vital those zero to five years are, those are crucial years. it matters, it makes a difference. there's a reason for us to get in there and make sure the children have great care, that they have preschool in that zero to five period. that whole zero to five continuum, from the time they leave the hospital, we need to pay better attention to that. we know from the ypsilanti perry school project that it works, we need to invest in it. every dollar that we put into that has a payoff down the road. it will be a priority. we will make it a priority. >> mr. benero , this campaign is about economic issues, but in michigan, social issues are never far from the surface. can you tell us precisely where you stand on the issues of abortion, gay marriage, affirmative action? >> sure. affirmative action, we're stuck with a state law that says that, the state constitution says there won't be any. we're working hard in my city to make sure that we continue to have a diverse police force, a

diverse workforce, by doing recruiting, so that our workforce reflects the diversity of the community. i am 100 percent pro choice. i believe in a woman's right to choose. i don't believe that the government should interfere between a woman and her doctor and her faith if she wishes. i think those are personal decisions, they should be left to that. on the issue of gay marriage, we have a state constitutional provision in place. i do support civil unions. i personally don't have any problem with gay marriage, i don't have a problem with personal monogamy, if somebody wants to spend their life with one person i think that's a good thing, and i don't know why government would want to step in the way of that. so i think we should look at, you know, domestic partnerships and civil unions that can be done without broaching that constitutional requirement, restriction that's there. >> thank you, mr. snyder, same question to you, abortion, gay marriage, affirmative action, they never seem to go away in michigan. >> no. and they're important issues, and they mean a lot to people. what i would say on abortion,

i'm pro life, and i have exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother. on gay marriage, marriage is between a man and a woman. but people should also have the ability to make contracts between themselves. and then affirmative action, in terms of where that is, is i don't believe in quotas, we shouldn't have quotas. i did support the item of having preferences, but that was decided in our constitution. many of these issues were decided over the last few years, and i respect the answers. because the focus we need to get to in our state is not just social issues, but jobs. i hear from people on social issues, but it keeps on coming back to jobs, jobs, jobs. so let's get the open for business sign up in michigan, because in fact what you can do as governor is by creating jobs we address many of the social issues. if you're pro-life or pro- choice, one of the best answers we can get is to create jobs, because that helps abortions go down overall. so let's focus on the big issue of jobs. >> okay. we have time for one last question. we all know michigan has the worst roads in the nation. mr. snyder, would you support an

increase in the gasoline tax to fix them? >> i don't support an increase in the gas tax, because we need to get efficient first. i mean, we need to look at value for money budgeting. because if you go around our state our roads are terrible, but let's tighten our belts, let's be efficient and see where we can deploy these dollars to fix the roads that really need to be fixed. a classic illustration i used from the ann arbor area, if you went to the michigan/michigan state game you had to suffer over the stadium street bridge potentially. two lanes are permanently closed on that bridge. i think it's got a rating of like 2 out of 10. -- 2 out of 100. at the same, i live near geddes road and us 23. they just built a bike and pedestrian bridge across us 23 at the cost of millions of dollars. what they didn't bother to tell us is a quarter might south that -- 1/4 mile south that there's a bridge over huron river and there's a bike and pedestrian path there. so let's get efficient about where we're deploying these dollars. there's a much better way to do things. and that's what we should focus on first.

>> mr. benero, would you support a gasoline tax increase to fix the roads? >> i can't support that at this time, nolan. as a mayor i'm on the front lines, i'm responsible for my roads, and we put a lot of money into roads. i can speak a lot more about the details and the materials and all that, but there's never enough money. the question is, is now the right time, can people afford it, or can we get by without it? i think we can find the money. as i said, i'm going to scour every inch of the budget, i'm going to go to the administration and ask them to forgive us our amount, given the dire straits that michigan is in. i'm hoping that we can not have to pay our $80 million dollar match and still get our federal dollars that come in, and maybe to look at, in the long run, how we fund roads as well. not just from the gas tax, we need to look at something a little more equitable, especially as we make the move toward more fuel efficient vehicles, as people are using less vehicles, it could be the case that we increase the gas tax and still don't generate any more money. so we have to look at a comprehensive approach to roads and the other important priorities in our budget. >> well, thank you, gentlemen. we have to move very quickly to our closing statements. mr. snyder, you have two minutes. >> sure.

well, again, i want to thank the partners for doing this tonight. you've been presented two options tonight. the mayor is presenting a model that goes back to the traditional political world. i admire the mayor for his public service, but that model doesn't work anymore. it's a model of the last century. it is time to reinvent michigan. we have people crying out for the need for more and better jobs and keeping our young people here. the way we're going to do that is with having a clear positive vision, the era of innovation, by having a ten-point plan about creating jobs, and an attitude of action where i'm a catalyst representing all of us in lansing to say it's time for common sense real world solutions. and that culture issue, it is time to change our culture. we need to move from being negative to being positive. we need to move from looking in the rearview mirror to looking out towards the future. we need to stop being so divisive with this win/lose attitude and negativity and be inclusive and create a winning environment where the only label that matters is michigander. it's by bringing that attitude that we can work and win

together. it's by bringing that focus, that fire. i am absolutely fired up to do this. and i hope you'll join me. it's time. this is with our one chance. let's go out there as 10 million people and say it's time for more and better jobs, it's time to keep our young people here, and it's time to be a great state again. >> mr.benero, two minutes. >> my dad left italy in 1948 for a chance at the american dream. he left all that he knew and loved for the chance at success in michigan, and he found it. not in vast riches or an endless bank account, but in hard work, matched by fair pay, a decent home and a family that loves him. the michigan that i group in was -- that i grew up in was a michigan of opportunity. my parents and godparents said that i could do anything, if i worked hard. and they were right. america was that kind of place, led by michigan. michigan was a state at the top. we were the arsenal of democracy. we made the things that made america great. and i believe we can again. i know we can.

because i'm doing it in my city. i know because i've seen and felt the spirit of ingenuity and entrepreneurship all around this great state. this state is poised for renewal, with the right leadership and the right plan i believe we can and will make michigan work again. but it will take more than happy talk and corporate buzzwords. michigan's problems won't fix themselves. we need to stand together and fight. when the auto industry was under attack, and our workers were being thrown under the bus, i organized mayors from around the country, i went to washington, i took to the airwaves, and i fought for michigan, and michigan needs a fighter now. this election offers a clear choice between the values of main street and the values of wall street, standing up the hard working men and women of our main streets and neighborhoods and communities all across this state, or the values of wall street, putting the interests of the big bank and the wall street fat cats first. it's a choice between standing up for michigan's small businesses and domestic manufacturing, or being part of the wall street outsourcing and off-shoring, the wall street greed that has all but destroyed michigan's economy. this is the fight of our lives.

now is the time to take a stand. won't you join me in standing and fighting for the michigan that we love? for that michigan of opportunity that brought my dad and so many others to michigan from around the country and around the globe? i know we can do it, i know we can put michigan back on top. i'm asking for your vote and for your support. thank you. >> that ends our debate here at detroit public television. thank you, mr. snyder and mr. benero, for joining is. if you missed part of this program or want to watch it again, it will be made available at myvote.org and at the centerformichigan.net. i'm stephen henderson. >> and i'm nolan finley. for everyone at detroit public television and the great debate coalition, thank you for watching.

>> our coverage of campaign 2010 continues in a few moments between -- with the debates between new hampshire's candidates for governor. in little more than an hour, a look at how the campaigns are progressing for the two major parties. then at the kentucky senate debate, followed by the debate in indiana. >> on "washington journal" tomorrow morning, a look at efforts by state attorneys general to combat foreclosures in their states. our guest will be greg zoeller. will be joined by representative chris van hollen. two former members of congress

will talk about their efforts. our guest will be republican john porter of illinois and david skaggs of coloradao. >> hey, middle and high school students, debt and working on those videos. -- get working on those videos. there is $50,000 in prizes. this year's theme is washington, d.c. through my lens. >> next, the candidates for governor in new hampshire debate the economy and business in the state. democratic governor john lynch is a running for reelection for a fourth term against republican rick snyder. no governor there has ever been elected to four terms. thios s is an hour. >> for public radio, this is the

candidate forum on business and the economy, sponsored by lincoln financial group and produced by the new hampshire business and industry association, and new hampshire public radio and public television. >> hello, everyone, and welcome to the candidate for on business and the economy. we are coming to you live from our studio d in concord. for the next hour, we will hear the democratic and republican candidates for governor discuss some of the most important economic issues of our time. we will press them to talk about what they would do as governor and refrained from spending valuable time attacking each other. let me introduce our candidates -- a democratic governor john lynch and republican challenger rick snyder. there is a third candidate, a libertarian mayojohn stephens, who did not meet the

debate criteria. during the first part, the panelists will ask questions. then we will move on to our lightning round. . .

>> i have instructed the department heads to reduce their budgets by 5% and that's what we're going to do as we beginning to zero base those budgets going forward. we're also in the midst of some significant changes to health and human services and corrections as we transform the way they do business. but the best way to think about how i'm going to approach the budget in the next biennium is to look at my record. we were facing a shortfall, $300 million. we cut spending and it's down 7.1% compared to the previous. we balanced the budget and generated a $60-plus million surplus. we did it with no sales tax, no income tax, no capital gains, no estate tax and no increase in business taxes. it's quite remarkable what we're able to do. we have the lowest state taxes per capita in the country, the

fourth lowest state spending. we're streamlining state government services. i'm using my business background to do things like centralize purchasing, put more services online. i'm going to approach what we did in this biennium in the same way as i think of the next. we have three agencies applaud our strong fiscal management, our conservative balance sheet that we have in place. as i think about the next budget, we're going to zero base the budgets, which has been my approach in the private sector, making sure that we're spending every dollar as carefully and consecutively as we can. -- conservatively as we can. mine is in contrast by john stephen who is going to cut the budget 10% across the board. i don't think it's the right way to do it. it's simplistic and somewhat reckless. >> well, what we're facing is in this budget, we have had hundreds of millions of dollars in one-time money from the federal government in the forms of the stim las package.

right there we have a hole opening up. at this point there must be some programs that you are familiar with that you feel can be changed. can you give us some specifics there? >> yeah, one way we're doing it is with health and human services. as i said before and you have heard me say, health and human services right now and their distribution system, they don't for the most part help or deliver services directly. they contract out with organizations and they contract out with over 4,000 different organizations in their delivery system which is way too fragmented, way too inefficient. each of these organizations has boards, has executive directors, has administrative costs, and i want to make that distribution system, the delivery system much more efficient. i would rather, rather investing state dollars in inefficiencies, i would rather invest that money in directly helping people. you get with the nonprofit organizations, the government wants to make us go out of

business because he may not chair about children or the elderly. i want to rationalize the system because i do care about children and i do care about seniors. as i said, i would rather invest those dollars in delivering services to people directly rather than paying for administrative costs. >> tom fahey another question for mr. stephen. >> mr. stephen you priced this budget gap a little higher at $800 million. we have been talking about this for a while. what proposal do you propose for some sort of budget solution? >> thank you to the question and thank you for the new hampshire public television, laura and the union leader. thank you to gonche lynch for being here today and it's a pleasure to be with you. i believe strongly, tom, that we are facing a nearly $800 million deficit. i said this from the beginning of the campaign. when you receive these stim las funds, when you borrow over $156 million million and the

$60 million sale of land of governor lidge's to put into the problem, there is not one piece of land being sold. they are looking at borrowing from the sir ket distribution that we're getting. we're continuing to kick the can down the road if we continue to care about your children, we wouldn't have a 24% increase in spending. tom, our budget in new hampshire, i believe strongly about new hampshire values which are fiscal responsibility, low taxes, low government has gone from $9.3 billion to $11.5 billion. those are the budgets that were passed that were signed into law by governor lynch. i would not have signed the budget into law that increased 24%. that's why we are in this situation. we need tough leadership. we have to look at all of these programs. i did say 10% across the board because i have done that before when i was commissioner telling stay employees who i have a lot of respect for, give me ideas on innovation. find ideas on efficiency.

we have h.r. in every department and finance employees in every department. we have a department of administration that is charged with business functions. governor lynch, i agree with you, 18 months ago you wanted to consolidate contracts. there are so many in this state. you have not moved forward on any of those proposals. we need to exhibit tough leadership and make tough decisions. i do have a pen, a veto pen. we got to stop spending money the way we have been spending in new hampshire. i'm going to hold the line, tom, look at every line item and make those tough decisions. >> can you give us some examples? i know you mentioned h.r. in a number of the debates and forums you have been in before. in addition to these cuts you're talking about, you're talking about cut taxes. how do we cut taxes and fill a budget gap at the same time with unspecified amounts? >> in 2007, under governor

lynch, we have gone with the highest business tax rate in the nation. that's not helping small businesses. $30 million is what they needed in the last budget to fix the budget and governor lynch passed an l.l.c. small business income tax that hurt job creation. that's a job killer. i didn't say that we were going to cut taxes on businesses right away. what i said is the first thing we're going to do is balance this nearly $800 million deficit. then i want to make sure we deliver tax cuts for our businesses. we can look at a managed care for medicaid which one provider has indicated could save up to $300 million a year. other states have done it. i wish governor lynch would look to the 40 other governors that have passed managed care in their states. we need to do that we also need to be more efficient and there are areas in our budget, tom, where we can look to reducing without impacting critical services. >> let me just in here for a moment before we go to my colleague phil. governor lynch, mr. stephen said good idea about con sool

dating all of those contracts. why haven't you done it? >> we are doing it. i want to go to what john stephen again said. he is going to cut spending by 10% across the board. half is aid to cities and towns. that's half the budget. if he cuts it by 10%, we will see massive local property tax increases guaranteed. 30% of what we spend is money on health and human services. i read the report that john stephen is talking about and the money isn't there that he claims is to be saved and we're looking into managed care. so that means if half the spending is off the board because he said he is not going to cut aid to cities and towns, that means a 20% reduction in what is left. if he cuts 10% to the university system and the community college system, that will result in tuition increases of 20%. >> we have a question later about higher education, but i do need to give him a chance to jump in here. are you going to downshift

massive amounts of money to cities and towns? >> absolutely not, laura. the governor is being sued by the municipal association by down shifting $14 million in the last budget. our budget increased from $9.5 billion to $11.5 billion. $2.2 billion in four years. that is not representative of the new hampshire way. we can find efficiencies. we are facing a $300 million deficit when i was appointed commissioner of health and human services an in four years was able to return $143 million to the taxpayers. we left with a rainy day fund which was just rated with over $100 million. >> these themes will be coming up again this hour. i'm going to turn it back to my colleagues. phil vaughn you're next with a question for mr. stephen. >> correct. mr. stephen, those working in the new hampshire health care sector say the state is dramatically underfunding medicaid. the impact is that hospitals and doctors make up the loss

somewhere else by shifting those costs. this problem has only grown in recent years boosting health insurance costs for individuals and businesses. as governor, how would you address this problem? >> i would do what i started to do, phil, as commissioner, to make sure we bring transparency, have more competition. phil, when i was commissioner, i went down and looked at the claims that we were paying for medicaid. for a tonsillectomy we paid one provider $3,000. another provider we paid $500. phil, it didn't matter, the quality was there and medicaid still paid the bill. we still have that inefficient system in place. i would do whatever i can to make sure we have competition, bring better quality and reduce the cost of health care for everyone. we also have to look at this whole area of regulation. phil, our regulatory environments only increased in the last four years. our insurance department regulations, you can't even get through those insurance regulations and if you're a

provider understanding exactly what those impacts are mandate after mandate after mandate. there has to be a new system here. we have the federal government that just passed obama care that our governor embraced that is going to have a $1.2 billion down shift to our state budget over a 10-year period. also we have a provider in manchester, he makes prosthetic devices for veterans that come home from the war, helps them get back to their lifestyle the best that they possibly could. he has no clue today in new hampshire what the tax is going to be on his prosthetic devices. he is not growing jobs because of it. we have to fight the obama care bill because it hurts jobs and it hurts new hampshire. i will make sure as governor we join the lawsuit against this federal bill and governor lynch has not done that, and i will also make sure we reform health care the right way. >> so you mentioned the obama health care reform and would

you repeal it or are you planning or -- >> i'm not running for federal office, phil. i have no authority to do that what i would do are two things quickly. first and foremost, i would join the lawsuit and make sure new hampshire is the 23rd state to join the lawsuit, which governor lynch has not done. the second thing is i would be asking for a health care choices act for the legislature to pass that basically would say no person in the state of new hampshire shall be forced by any government, whether it's state or federal, to join a health care plan that is not of their choice. we should not be forcing them into a plan. i want to make sure we do it the right way. i want a lot of providers, less in the regulatory environment and bring more people into the state and have transparency so we know what the true costs are of medical procedures. >> some of those benefits with health care reform are in place. what would you take away from those who are already taking advantage of reform? >> we're going to make sure the system is done in a more effective and cost-effective

way. we're not talking about taking away. we're talking about making sure that individuals have the ability and choices to make, so that it's in a competitive environment. in the state of wisconsin, a single individual plan is around $2,000 a year according to the association of independent health insurance plans. it's over $4,000 here for a single individual plan in new hampshire. in massachusetts, it's close to $10,000. what is the difference? the difference is when you bring competition and you lessen regulation and you're able to give the people of this state more choices and you allow for transparency so they know what they're paying for and how much it costs, believe me, phil, the cost to health care is going to come down for everyone. >> thank you. another question. >> what can be done to reduce cost shifting to businesses? >> i think john stephen's record, and this goes back to grinity care when i was commission -- granitecare when he was commissioner, his plan

is to reduce coverage or eliminate coverage for tens of thousands of seniors, children, pregnant women. he wants to cut medicaid by $3 million. the only way can you do that is throwing off the roles, seniors, pregnant women, and kids. that's the only way you are able to achieve that savings. i don't think that's right. what we're seeing now in health and human services as opposed to private sector and the private secretary or when revenue goes down, costs down now. when health and human services, revenue goes down, costs go up driven by higher unemployment. there are a couple of things we need to do. we need to get away from fifa service. right now that's a big part of how bills are paid in the health and human services and really across the state. we have to get away from fifa service and get away from incentives which promote greater utilization. we have now in place five pilot programs around the care organizations which the goal is to focus on patient outcomes.

pay people for performance. break down the silos. get everybody working together to improve patient quality and the outcomes and focus on that as opposed to just pay for fee-for-service. i agree with john stephen. we need to promote greater transparency, but i don't agree about his comment for competition for this reason -- there is the right way to promote competition and the wrong way to promote competition. his idea is to get more insurance companies, more networks in place. the evidence doesn't show that. you need competition at the point where the disease or the condition is treated. that's the kind of competition you end up getting. that's where you add value. you add value which is the cost per outcome. we need to reinvent the way we deliver health care here in new hampshire and get away from fee-for-service, get away from incentives which promote utilization, focus on transparency and focus on the point where the condition or disease is treated. >> when you took office, health

care was expensive. it is still expen is receive. what more can be done that hasn't been? >> as i said, phil, i think we need to get away from fee-for-service. we need to get away from utilization. it's a complicated problem. our health care costs here in new hampshire are too expensive. we send 18.5% of the grows product on heading -- gross product on health care. if he with don't stop it, it will get to 22% and squeeze out our ability to invest in other areas like education and infrastructure projects. these accountable care organizations which are a pilot program, will allow allow us to focus on patient outcomes rather than fee-for-service. we promoted greater transparency as a talked about. technology should do for health care what it has done for many other businesses including the businesspeople here today. it ought to improve quality, improve customer service and

stabilize costs. we now have medical providers who can prescribe medication electronically. we need to go toward more electronic medical records as a way to improve service and stabilize cost. >> thank you, governor lynch. another question. >> governor lynch, financial resources mortgage or f.r.m. operated for a decade, people were collapsing into bankruptcy. 150 investors lost millions of dollars in a ponzi-like scheme. they were under the watch of three different state agencies. who is to plame and what changes need to be made? >> it's a good question. first of all, we all have empathy and compassion for those who lost money in f.r.m. we need to bring those people who committed the crime to justice and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. now we had a very thorough, exhaustive report by the attorney general. the legislature did hearings, came out with a regard.

the f.f.c. is involved, a number of organizations are involved. we don't need another organization investigating. what we need to do is look at the recommendations and move forward. that's what i'm doing now. there needs to be more collaboration among the different departments such as this won't happen again. there is greater sharing of information among the departments so that this doesn't happen again. that's what didn't happen before. the departments weren't talking with each other. they weren't communicating with each other and the buck was being passed from department to department. now, two of the leaders involved -- there were three agencies involved. two are gone. the third has proceedings going on against him. we're going to deal with the leadership issues which is an important issue to deal with. we need to promote greater collaboration and cooperation among the state agencies to make sure that something like this doesn't fall through the cracks. that's what i'm working on, implementing the recommendations that the attorney general proposed. >> and, governor, does the buck

stop with you? >> sure. we all have a responsibility. i think the responsibility is with banking, with securities, with the attorney general's office and i share responsibility as well. >> the same question, who is to blame and what changes need to be made? >> i respect the fact that the governor has indicated the buck stops with him. the issue is i read that attorney general's report and i worked for the attorney general and the issue in that report was all about finger pointing. which agency is to blame? there are real victims here that have been harmed. this is a very tragic set of circumstances here. i am so glad that those that are responsible are being held accountable and will go to prison. it's all about leadership. we need to have an independent counsel, first of all, appointed to make sure that this never happens again. we had a committee hearing made up of legislators, the governor from the executive branch. the executive branch should be taking a lead in saying we're going to find out why this

happened and it never happens again. if it is involving the attorney general's office, i worked there, it's involving other agencies, you got to bring someone else who has an independent overview to look at it and be able to give responsible answers here, how we can fix it so it never happens again. the other issue is regarding leadership. it's important to know when things like this are happening, the governor said we're going to communicate, all communicate together. as commissioner of health and human services, we have directors. we communicated and met all the time. we did the best for the people of this state. we did it together in collaboration. i do agree. i have been talking to state employees and others. there hasn't been that type of collaboration that i have seen in the past in state government. we need to all work together. at the end of the day, we're facing a nearly $800 million deficit. it is historic. it is that way because the governor has not made the tough decisions on spending. the governor mentioned earlier that he had general fund spending.

when you take a quarter of a billion dollars offline and take it out of the general fund, the fund is close to $100 million and $90 million of borrowing school aid, taking it out of the general fund, yeah, that's what the governor calls a cut. we need responsible leadership in state government. >> the attorney general for most of that time, how much blame does she bear and how would you have done things differently? >> i hold any department head that is involved in this has to be held accountable. at the end of the day, the buck stops with the governor. again, if you're communicating on a daily basis or bringing your department heads in and other governors have done that on a weekly basis, finding out what are the difficult cases, what are the things going on. i would expect that of my commissioners as well. i don't think that's happened here. i think that what is happening is commissioners are running their own show. for example, the commissioner of transportation filed a request for a toll in salem on i-93. the governor didn't say a word.

let the commissioner of transportation go into the communities and say we're going to bring a toll to 93. it wasn't until after the community was outraged that the governor came on and said, you know what, i'm asking them to withdraw the question. who is in charge? >> mr. stephen, let me ask governor lynch to respond here. he is saying that there has been a failure of leadership, f.r.m. and other instances. what is your response to that? >> that's what it's about, leadership. there is a big difference in our leadership styles and our leadership abilities. first of all, leadership begins with ethics and integrity in being honest. john stephen knows i don't support a toll on the mass border of i-93. he knows that. he is using it for politics. he is using it because he wants to be governor. he is using it as a way to get more votes and make points with people. he knows that. >> you're commissioner went ahead and did it without consulting with you. >> i meet with commissioners regularly. in fact, i'm very proud of the

group of the commissioners that we have at the state. it starts with leadership and it starts with building a team. when john stephen was commissioner, most of his team left health and human services. they didn't want to work with him. when i first started governor, i have a department head meeting and most of the department heads didn't get along with each other. they didn't trust each other or they had political agendas. i have been able to build a team of department heads who are really outstanding, who get along with each other, who work with each other, who want to collaborate with each other, which is what they're doing. we see that happening, for example, in how a group are getting together to streamline the permitting process, make state services more convenient, more accessible to the people of new hampshire. they all rally together when employment security was inundated with requests, they all came to help. so i am very proud of the department heads we have and of the team that i have been able to build over the last six years. >> we have heard leadership being a theme in this election.

john stephen, i'm giving you 30 seconds to give your thoughts on what governor lynch said on your leadership style. >> maybe i'm a little bit more hands-on. when i was process prosecuting homicide cases, i was involved. if they didn't want to be fiscally responsible and make sure we deliver effective services, maybe they didn't like where i was going, but i care about the taxpayers as much as those. we kept seniors in the community longer than any other commissioner in nursing homes. we did so many good things. this is all about leadership, laura. at the end of the day, the buck does stop with the governor. i would just ask the people -- look at the examples. obama care is another issue. i know the president is a democrat. stand up for the people of this state, even -- i'm a republican and the president was republican, i'm going to stand up for the people. it's not about party. it's about leadership and it should not be having this ever encroaching health care bill coming into our state impacting

businesses in our community the way this will happen. >> now go back to my colleagues on the panel, tom fahey, you're up next with a question. >> i want to talk about the north country economy for a second. this year the frazier paper mill announced that it could end up having to shut down. it's another hit to the north country where unemployment is the highest in the state. a few weeks ago when you were asked how to help the region, you told residents hang in there twice during that debate. is that the best we have to offer workers in the north country? >> tom, if you go back to the debate, i was told hang in there, i was cut off. november 2 is coming close. i want to make sure they know i'm a governor that is going to listen to their concerns. again from the days when i was prosecuting cases in the north country, meeting with the folks there to the days i was commissioner traveling the entire north country making sure we meet and try to understand the concerns, they have different concerns than the southern part of the state

and other parts of our state. tom, as a candidate, i have traveled over this entire state all summer, all spring. i have made many stops in the north country, the berlin area, i drove on the a.t.v. trails. there is so much opportunity there in our park system and a.t.v. trails and the people in the north country are special and they know that the state of new hampshire can help. it has to stop being a obstacle. governor lynch passed in the wee hours of the last budget, the l.l.c. small business income tax. he needed to find $30 million of revenue in a budget that was $11.5 billion. what did the governor do? the governor, you didn't look for a $30 million in spending cuts. so you passed an income tax on the smallest of businesses in our state, maybe in the north country and i met with many of them. one farmer i met with that hired a few folks had to pay over $4,000 in the l.l.c. income tax. that is a job killer, tom.

that's now how you're going to help the north country. i will be a governor that be -- that will be there. in every 60 days, i would be in every area of the north country so people can come visit. right now, this frazier paper mill and the other areas that are affected, they need help. we need to work together. this isn't about politics. this is about making sure that there is a rapid response team to help those that are going to be unemployed. >> most of the bad economic news comes out of the north country is the paper and pulp industry. is that area dead in new hampshire? >> i don't know if it's dead. tom, if we could deliver tax cuts here, we have the highest business tax rate in the nation. yes we do have high energy prices too, that's it an impact. the bottom line that impacts. it would be nice if we could stand up to the business community and say you know what? we're going to deliver a tax

cut so that new hampshire leads the region in the lowest tax rate for businesses. we can't do that until we're able to balance the budget that's nearly $800 million of shortfall because of the many tough decisions that i believe governor lynch did not make. >> governor lynch, you put forth a number of initiatives to try to help and they're still struggling. why aren't these approaches working? >> i want to mention this l.l.c. tax because when i think of l.l.c., and i think everybody should think of this, l.l.c. is john stephen's economic plan. health care, education aid, and crushing property taxes. so forever when people think of l.l.c., think of his economic plan. less education aid, less health care and crushing property taxes. as john stephen knows, it's a revenue source that knows no small business pays and it's been repealed. i love the north country. i go up there a lot. i love the people in the north

country. they have a wonderful work ethic. they have affordable housing in the north country. i am leaving right after this discussion to go meet with the workers at frazier and then i'm going to meet with businesspeople to talk about how we can keep that plant open. there are initiatives going on in the north country. we have a initiative with the community college up there to help train workers so they can apply and have the skills necessary to work at the federal prison. we accept that a $42 million broadband grant that will allow us to expand broadband to the north country and the western part of the state. we have the community college working with small businesses trying to give them the expertise they need in order to grow, be successful, create jobs. for years people have been saying we need to diversify the economy, which is what is happening in the north country. i do think in spite of what is going on with frazier. as i said, i'm doing my best to find another buyer for frazier and will be meeting this

afternoon on that, there is a real resilience in the north country, a real spirit of optimism. i'm convinced that working together we can help the people in the north country through that what admittedly are very, very difficult times for them. >> two years ago, you introduced a tax credit, a job tax credit that would help companies that created what we call good jobs, good paying jobs. it produced a handful of jobs. it didn't really stimulate the economy the way you wanted. what went wrong? >> what went wrong is that it was introduced right at the time the economy started falling apart. i still think it has potential because we can talk to commission and encourage companies to locate in the north country and we can say to companies, as i have said, because i talk a lot with business leaders, a lot with company heads to come to new hampshire and expand in new hampshire, we have an act to tell business if's you go to the north country where the work ethic of the people is high, where there is affordable housing, where there are other

amenities, you'll be able to go there and locate there. no sales tax, no income tax, no capital gains, no estate tax and you won't have to pay business taxes for five years depending upon how many workers you hire. i still think it's an attractive economic marketing opportunity that we have to get businesses in the north country and the expansion of broadband. that will help. that will help on companies that use broadband for their communications network structure. >> thank you. we turn to the portion of our forum we call the lightning round. our panelists will ask a series of brief questions which can be answered briefly such as yes or no. now, the federal candidates for congress and u.s. senate have had a hard time sticking with that. let's show them what new hampshire candidates can do. our first questions with this round is to mr. stephen. >> mr. stephen, do you support the privatization of public

sector jobs? >> in certain areas, yes. in certain areas, if we can do a better job in the private sector and we need to reduce the size of government, yes. >> governor lynch, same question. >> i think we should look at different models for how we do business and the services that we provide. the public sector doesn't have a monopoly in terms of how we produce the services or deliver the services. i think we need to do what is best for the customer and best for the taxpayers. we have had examples of that. i do support that in limited areas. how do we do, laura? >> you're doing much better. >> i wanted to make sure. >> so far. >> governor lynch, businesses are the largest single source of revenue to the state. will you support or oppose tax increases on businesses to close the projected budget deficit? >> i don't support increases in business taxes. as i said, my first approach is to look at spending, spending cuts and greater efficiencies. that's how i'll approach the budget in the next biennium.

that's what i did six months ago. >> i have already said i will veto any new taxes, period. we are going to solve this budget deficit without tax increases and we will never again under my leadership have this small business tax increase that governor lynch passed during the deepest recession of our time. whether you call it l.l.c.'s, it's the smallest of small businesses in our state they create jobs. that will not happen. what we have seen in the pass is those businesss that are hurting need to have tax cuts. after we balance this budget, after we're able to do this with honesty and no accounting gimmicks, we're going to move toward a business tax cut for those businesses in the state. >> tom has the next two lightning round questions. >> governor, has the lack of aan income and sales tax help new hampshire weather this recession? >> yes, it has, we have unemployment rate which is 47% below the national average. 5.7%. we have the second fastest job growth rate in the country. other states look at new

hampshire and we're the envy of other states. i talk with businesspeople all the time, businesspeople who are locating here and i ask them how are you doing and why are you here in new hampshire? clearly they embrace our quality of life. we haven't talked about education and the fact that the educated workforce is here, which is very important. >> i have a question about education in just a moment. let's stick with the lightning spirit of this, governor. >> well, i'm trying to stick to it, laura. [laughter] >> we don't have an income and sales tax is very important and i pledge to veto every one. >> go ahead, tom. >> absolutely, it's helped us keep employment rates lower than the national average. it isn't as low as it can be. it can be better. tom, when you have 12% increase under the last budget by governor lynch, unemployment tax is over 70%. when you start hitting small businesses and in the deepest recession of our time, we don't have a sales or income tax, what message does that send to people.

i want to be a salesman in chief and say come to new hampshire. it's a great place to do business. >> thanks. >> mr. stephen, next question is do you support extended gambling in the state? >> i have said i will not support expanded gambling as a way to balance this budget. once we can balance the budget, tom, i said that i'm open to looking at that and we're going to look at the regulation, we're going to look at the environment and it will be discussed if i were elected governor at that time. it's not going to be a way to balance the budget like it has been in the past because that's only a recipe to continue to grow government. >> so not now? >> correct. >> governor lynch, yes or no. >> i thought i heard john say he was going to lower the sales and income tax which is tough to do because it's already zero. i'm concerned about proliferation, i really am. i'm concerned about proliferation and what it means for new hampshire over the next 20 years. i have concerns about going forward with it. >> mr. stephen, new hampshire's minimum wage is $7.25.

would you raise that wage, and if so, by how much? >> i am not a federal congressional candidate and i don't believe the minimum wage should be raised at this point by a governor or state. it has to be done by the federal delegation. i would work with the delegation. i would want to know the pros and cons and look at it. right now we need creation of jobs. >> governor lynch. >> states can raise the minimum wage. it's not just congress. i think it's fine right where it is. >> governor lynch, new hampshire's public employment pension system is underfunded, some fire and police officers retire at the age of 45. do you support raising that age? >> i don't. i think that age ought to be right where it is, particularly for current employees. i think we need to look at the model for future employees, the retirement system is underfunded for a whole bunch of reasons, i wouldn't touch it as it is now. >> we have a $7 million

unfounded problem here. i absolutely have to look at that as well as a lot of other areas. we had nine bills this past session, over nine bills to address the retirement situation. i worked with law enforcement most of my career. i know that they care about state fiscal issues as much as i do. yes, we have to make sure that those that were promised, we keep our promises. we have to manage our finances. we need to look at a lot of issues in the retirement system and the answers i believe, there were nine billings. the people have been working on this already have ideas. let's use what is on the table and let's fix this once and for all. >> so possibly racing that age. >> yes. >> the next lightning round question. >> governor, new hampshire gasoline tax currently stands at 19.6 cents a gallon. it hasn't been raised since 1991. is it time to raise that tax? >> no, how did i do, laura? >> very well. >> trying to make up. >> appreciate that.

>> mr. stephen. no. >> is there room for another nuclear power plant in new hampshire? >> i'm not sure of the answer, i support nuclear power. i support alternative types of power. we need to make sure we work with wind technology, but all kind of alternative sources. it's not a one size fits all, tom. i definitely would support making sure that we have alternative energy in our state and it's helping businesses. the issue is making sure we reduce the energy costs for our businesses. >> governor. >> i support nuclear power. i don't know whether it's economically feasible to build a second plant. i have been watching it very carefully, particularly concerned about the credibility of management at vermont

yaveingy. >> mr. stephen, do you agree with the attorney general's decision to block the merger of catholic medical center and dartmouth hitchcock? >> i believe the attorney general makes the call and i would respect that decision. i looked at the decision and the attorney general looked at a lot more facts than i did at my disposal. >> i think it's still an ongoing process. it hasn't been resolved at this point. there are federal agencies looking into the anti-issues as well. i'm concerned about what does it mean to the cost of health care, which i don't think has been looked at as carefully as it needs to. so at this point, i think putting it on hold is the right decision. >> governor, do you support legislation that would guarantee paid sick leave for employees? >> no. >> mr. stephen. >> i would not support that right now. >> i support the good job you guys did with the lightning round. excellent keeping it lightning fast. we're going to shift gears yet again. we're going to turn to the portion of our forum that is

the longer forum part of our discussion. i will ask the candidates one broad philosophical question and then moderate a conversation between them. our goal is to get them to engage with each other and for us, the audience, to see how they think. the first question is -- are new hampshire public schools good enough? why or why not? i'm going to turn to first governor lynch, go ahead. >> i think our public schools are outstanding. you look at all of the measures that we can look at and not only should we be looking at standardized test scores, but we should be looking at dropout rates. we should be looking at the percentage of kids that go on to higher education. focusing on dropout rate, which i think is an indication of how well schools are doing here in new hampshire, as you know, i made that a priority and at a time when high dropout rates are of epidemic proportions in other states. we cut our dropout rate in half. it's is a low 1.7%. we did it by more than just

raising the compulsion ri attendance age to 18, which, by the way, is something that governors going back to the 1980's trying to get done. we're also investing in alternative programs. can we improve, sure? we can improve in science. we're already very strong in math. we need more opportunity for kids to take programs outside of class and get credit for those programs. we have expanded running start, which is a wonderful program allowing kids to take courses at their high schools that are also good for credit at the public colleges and private colleges and universities all over the country. so i think we're doing a lot. it's an important priority for me as governor. >> what do you think, john stephen, are new hampshire public schools good enough, why or why not? >> i think they are good. they are very good my wife works in one, by the way. we do a good job with quality. can we be improved? yes, one of the areas to improve upon is to allow for

more alternative aspects. for example, homeschooling. i met a lot of homeschoolers throughout the entire state. the homeschoolers are doing such a great job in the standardized testing. it is absolutely compatible and as good and in some case better. we need to look at math and sciences. that is something as governor that i agree with you, math and sine is so critically important to the future generation as well. entrepreneurism, innovators in the next few years to come are going to be looking at people that really have good math and science skills. i want to focus on that. i think our curriculum could probably be a little more focused, but i don't like a lot of mandates that impact local governments. i want to make sure our local governments in this state really are able to make their decisions with quality and with confidence that they're getting the best value and the students are getting the best value. i want to make sure that there is lower reliance on federal as well as state mandates.

>> well, and you're raising something i would love to ask both of you about. you are both running to be governor, chief executive in new hampshire in a state where education is very locally-based. what is your brought philosophy about how much, in what way, should state be involved in what is a very local school system? >> there is a bunch of answers to that one is how we fund schools. as you know, the state spends close to $1 billion in aid that we distribute to local schools and local communities. my philosophy there has been that i think we should send more aid to the communities and to the children who need it more than others. ultimately, to me, education is all about opportunity. the opportunity that we offer to our children to have better lives. i think all of our children in new hampshire deserve that opportunity, regardless of where they live and regardless of their economic background. as governor, and i think about how we fund our schools, we have to ensure that all of our

children get the opportunity, that kids shouldn't be disadvantaged because of where they live. if they don't get this opportunity now, it's harder for them to get that opportunity later on in life. >> so money in the area of funding schools who need it best. where else should the governor be involved in shaping school policy and where should he step out? >> i appoint the members of the state board including the chair and the state board sets standards that each school must apply. that's important that there be standards in place, particularly as we think about how we want our kids to and what we want them to achieve by the time they graduate and what college is going to be looking at. you can't have each school and each community and each city decide for itself what those standards should be. i think the state has a role in setting broad standards that schools and teachers at each grade have to adhere to. >> you said broad standards as a state and let them follow it from there. >> there is some flexibility at

the local level. i believe in local control. the standards need to set appropriately so at the state level. >> is that overinvolvement or is that ok for you? >> i believe in flexibility. i don't believe that mandates that are driving costs for the local governments especially from the federal government. here is an issue of leadership again. when the federal government, department of education comes out with more and more mandates that are costing our local governments money, time, and effort and not allowing them do what they do best, as governor, you're going to hear me loud and clear. that's maybe a different approach, but the past few years, i have been talking to teachers, my wife is in the system, i have talked to a lot of folks around the state that tell me that the federal mandates are hurting their ability to do their job. >> such as? >> we're seeing the curriculum, dictating what it should be and quality and we're improving quality at the local levels. there are some that need help. i don't disagree. there is a targeted aid formula we need to be looking at.

the local control issue is a very important issue for our communities. i want to make sure that we restore local control. i can't tell what state particular mandate i'm concerned about. i'm telling you philosophically and the board of education knows. i talked to fred and he has given the board alternative forms of education. if someone is doing well in music and other areas, let them try to reach their greatest potential and not be so stuck and structured on a core curriculum and standard. i think that's where we need flexibility at the local level and it would save money. >> there has been a lot of talk lately about the workforce and the workforce is always changing. the skill set is changing. we did a program recently where college leaders said, look, new hampshire high school students are just not ready for college. what's the workforce going to look like in 2020, governor, put on your crystal ball if you could and are the new hampshire

doing a good enough job getting ready for the 2020 workforce? >> i think they can do a better job, but they are doing a good job. as i look at the workforce in 2020, there is more emphasis on science and math and technology and engineering. the nature of manufacturing has changed. my background is manufacturing and business. so i have seen the changes firsthand. you go into a manufacturing environment today and it's more than just traditional manufacturing. the workers on the line also need to know computers. they need to be sophisticated in technology. we need to integrate that as we are doing into the subject matter. so that's going to be a big part of it as well. as i said, we're doing that both inside the classroom and outside the classroom. i'm a big proponent of first robotics which is an opportunity for kids to get involved in a hands-on way using these skills to build robots which then they compete against each other. i think they should get credit for it at the high school level. i also think the teachers should get credit for mentoring these kids. that's the kind of workforce that we're going to see.

we need to be preparing these kids to ultimately be leaders in our community as well so we don't want to abandon the focus on liberal arts and traditional arts, but there needs to be more focus on the science and math and technology and engineerings. >> so we're doing an ok job, but we're not quite there? >> i think we can always do better and a better job integrating where higher education is expecting from the public schools because they're ultimately the customer of the students who end up going to higher education. >> final thoughts from you, mr. stephen. >> i have a 13-year-old, my wife jenny and i married for 16 years, i have a 13 and a 15-year-old. this is one of the issues. i agree with everything that was said by the governor. those young kids that are going to schools today, i want them absolutely if they want to stay in new hampshire, grow a business, be an entrepreneur. you can't pass job killing taxes that continue to hurt

business' ability to grow. one in six of new hampshire residents are leaving our state to work elsewhere according to the tax foundation, which puts us 49th only ahead of maryland. so we need an environment that prides itself on the continued core values that new hampshire has always been about, low taxes, limited government, less spending. those kids are going to get out of school and we got to focus on math, science, anything involves technology for the future. but i don't want them to leave new hampshire. stay here. grow a job and that's what we need to start telling these kids. we're going to have an environment here in new hampshire that is so conducive to job, meaningful job creation in the future. >> if john stephen goes forward with his plan and he cuts aid to education by hundreds of millions of dollars which is what he said he is going to do, it's going to decimate public education here in new hampshire and have a dramatic increase in local property taxes. he said already on this show, he supports a 10% across the

board cut. half of what we spend is aid to cities and towns and half of that is aid to public education. you can't have it both ways, which is what he wants to do. he is just not being straight with us here today and with the people listening on the show. >> mr. stephen, i'll give you 30 seconds. >> first of all, 10% was what i'm going to ask department heads to produce. then we'll look at it. governor, you're being misleading. you're --ed leader of the biggest state paper, sexual predators get out of jail early. you said that's not happening. today we read that there is now a parent that has a sexual predator that got out early under your law. can you please tell the people of this state that you aren't misleading. sexual predators are being let out. >> let me jump in for a minute. you're going to join me on monday in the exchange and i know that we will have a lot of

coverage, i do want to give you 30 seconds there. >> the difference is that john stephen wants to let these offenders out with no supervision, no electronic monitoring, just let them out into the community. the victims who have asked for this change, they want scrutiny. they want intense supervision, electronic monitoring, ankle bracelets, g.p.s. that's why i stood with law enforcement yesterday, these organizations, the troopers, police association endorsed me. they stood in favor of this provision including the victims and victims families are supporting. >> he is being misleading. >> we're going to explore this, , we are going to explore this further. i want to let this drop here. the clock is my master and i'm going to follow it here. i'm going to turn back to my colleague with a question. we are moving into the final portion of our forum and this is where our panelists ask a final question.

candidates have about 45 seconds to respond. go ahead, phil, pleases. >> mr. stephen, new hampshire is one of the most expensive states when it comes to higher education. both of you said it's important to make college affordable, but in an era of enormous budget deficits, how would you do that? >> well, first of all, we have to make sure that we make college education affordable. we have a great system in our state. i went to the university system. i graduated from the school of business and economics. we have some of the highest college education rates for our in-state students. i'm going to work as hard as i can to make sure it's affordable and that we have access. i have talked about a program i would like to see where we can help some of the kids in our system and our state that do real well in local high school and achieve good grades based on merit and maybe we can help them with a scholarship toward the university system education. it could be anywhere, we have a great system. again, phil, we're facing a nearly $800 million deficit

because of the lack of leadership displayed in the last few years. that's the most important thing facing us right now. >> governor lynch, how can higher education be more affordable? >> first of all, i want to get back to john stephen saying he is going to cut higher education by 10%, because that's going to drive tuition increases here in new hampshire for both the community college system as well as the university system upwards of 20% tuition increases. that's unacceptable. at a time when states all over this country were slashing aid for public education, we kept our commitment for public education and fully funded our commitment to public education. we have a program called running start they talked about earlier that allows students in high school to take courses for their college degree making college for accessible and affordable. we have transfer ability of credit partnership between the community colleges and the university system, again making higher education more accessible and affordable.

>> tom has the last question for our candidates and if you could keep it brief. >> during the first hour, we heard a lot of disagreement. governor lynch, is there one economic idea that john stephen brought up that you like? >> i'll have to think about it. i really am concerned about this 10% across the board cut because i just don't think it's sustainable. i think it's going to decimate education. it's going to decimate health care. it's going to decimate our higher education system. it's easy to say i'm going to cut spending by 10% across the board, but he hasn't offered one specific in terms of where it's going to come from. so i'm very, very concerned about that. i'm concerned about what it means for the state of new hampshire with a 10% across the aboard -- board cut. we agree on public education and the importance of educating our kids and giving them more opportunity to get credit for

classes or for workload outside of the classroom. we agree on the need to encourage students to take more math courses and science, technology, and engineering. that's important for business and important for economic development. >> thank you. go ahead, tom. >> is there mr. stephen, is there one thing that governor lynch has done in the past six years to stimulate the economy that you think is a good idea? >> bring ago tax breaks for the north country may have been a good idea at the time, and i believe we need to go further, i do agree on the issue of contracts. i said this earlier. governor, you're absolutely right about 18 months ago saying we have too many contractors in this state, but nothing has meaningfully been done. the governor saying i'm going cut spending 10% across the board is again misleading. the issue is i'm going to ask department heads to produce ideas on innovation and we're going to reform state government. we're going to balance the government with honesty, no accounting gimmicks and no new

taxes. i have a pen, tom, you know, i said this, i will veto any new taxes, any new spending until we get our $800 million deficit under control. that's the leadership i think new hampshire needs. >> thank you, both. this has been very interesting. i want to thank our panelists, phil and tom, i also want to thank you, our audience here at our studios and new hampshire public radio for coming out on this rainy morning. i want to thank you watching and listening at home and a special thank you to our candidates, republican john stephen and democratic governor john lynch. thank you very much for being here. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010]

>> the candidate forum on business and the economy has been sponsored by lincoln financial group and produced in partnership with the new hampshire business and industry association. new hampshire union leader, new hampshire public radio and new hampshire public television. >> we want to give you a 2010 update on the senate race. chris brennan is a political writer with the daily news. the incumbent who will no longer be in this seat, senator arlyn spector who was a republican and ran as a democrat, beat in the primary is now going to campaign for for his opponent. why now? >> i think that arlyn spector is being deployed strategically

in the city of philadelphia. he is still very popular here in philadelphia though his favorable, his unfavorable ratings in the state are not so great. i think that this is a chance for joe to raise some last-minute cash. he is known to close late. no one knows that better than arlen specter. he was behind in the polls and with the help of a rather devastating political campaign commercial closed the gap and beat specter quite handily in the end. specter is now going to help him raise the money that he will need if he is going to have a shot at former congressman pat toomey in the general election. >> the event is in philadelphia. what are the details? where will they be and when? >> they're going to be holding it at a downtown law firm. it's a private event. it remains to be seen whether specter will have anyth