work these days. we need some kind of catalyst to make the discontent show itself in a change way of doing business. guest: greta, can i add to that? one thing we have not discussed is where a member who wants to vote, they believe, correctly on an issue is told by a party, you cannot do that. you will lose your chairmanship or get kicked off your committee or we will have someone run against you in the next primary because basically, we do not want people using their independent judgment. we want them using the parties judgment. it does not work for this country on either party. host: that will have to be the final word. we have run out of time. if you want more information about what congressman porter or what congressman skaggs are doing, go to the website fmocforcommonground.org. thank you both and we appreciate

your time. the "washington journal" will return tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. eastern time with more of your phone calls. thanks for watching. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> parents who say their daughter suffered serious health problems from a childhood vaccine are trying to persuade the supreme court to allow them to sue the manufacturer. drug companies and the obama administration say the claim should be decided by a special vaccine court set up 24 years ago to ensure a stable vaccine

supply by shielding companies from those lawsuits. the nation's highest court is hearing arguments today on whether to allow the parents to sue the drugmaker. we get more on this from a reporter who covers the court. this question. we have about 15 minutes left. first, joining us on the phone this morning is a reporter with "the wall street journal" here to talk about a supreme court case that is going to be heard today about vaccine makers. the issues surrounding vaccine makers. tell us what the case is about today? caller: the case is v. wyeth. whether the law shields vaccine makers from certain product- liability lawsuits. the law was set up in 1986. a giant vaccine fund. so that if your child has their regur routine vaccines and suddenly developed terrible

illnesses that could be actually linked to the vaccine rather than have individual suits, vaccine makers would go through a special chord with a special master that focused on nothing but vaccines and the case would be determined there. the set of parents in this case, whose ughter hannah became severely developmentally disabled after she took a vaccine in the 1990's, once to sue the manufacturer wyeth directly. they say that vaccine court has rejected their pleas on behalf of their daughter and want to go directly to the court. it is a huge case, just about 5000 parents of autistic children waiting to see what happens. they want to see what the court is going to decide. if the court allows of this set of parents' case to go through,

then it could open the floodgates for thousands of other cases of parents who say their children have developed terrible forms of optimism after they were vaccinated. host: is is likely to be a highly emotional case. why is that? guest: the parents of autistic children have become a very vocal advocacy group as the number of autistic cases among children have been diagnosed. and they are pretty much convinced thataking these vaccines all but one can cause autism, some of the vaccines in the past had a former mercury. it is very emotional because they say it is directly injuring their kids and the makers of these vaccines, which are very hard and expensive to make, that they are being unfairly shield. there is a lot of the motion. the cases are tragic. people working on these cases have talked with me and said, you just want to look at the

process and what the law says about how there is one guiding law that basically protects these companies, that they continue to make these expensive and fficult to handle vaccines and you want to focus on the process. but then the evidence comes to you in some of these cases in the form of a video of a smiling happy 1-year-old baby and the next video is the same child a year later unable to hold their head up for anything after they had the vaccine. you don't know if it is the vaccine that caused it. but you are dealing with an issue involving infants, children, and parents who are, as expected, very, very emotional. i would not be surprised if there were protesters outside the supreme court this morning. this case just has a lot of emotional weight. host: why will justice elena kagan not be hearing this case? because she was solicitor general when the obama administration weighed in on

this case and they weighed in with the manufacturer wyeth on the grounds that the government did set up the vaccine fund in 1986 in order to keep manufacturers king vaccines. vaccines are very, very expensive. if you are going to get sued every time you turn around because there is a chance that your vaccine may be linked to a child sudden developmental disorder, the companies were not going to make vaccines any more. they were just walking away from it. there were a lot of other products that are more profitable. the obama administration weighed in with the manufacturer as well as the american medical association with the manufacturers saying that the courts need to protect the vaccine court to's or ultimate ability to be the arbiter of this and you can't have individual cases, ford because it wrecks the whole system. kagan was the solicitor general so she recused herself.

interestingly enough, the chief justice, john roberts, sold his stock in the pfizer co., the drug company that bought wife last year, he sold it a couple of weeks ago so he ca >> u.s. and u.k. military officials have started into the investigation into the death of a kidnapped aide worker who may have been killed in error. british prime minister david cameron says her life was in danger prior to the rescue attempt. the prime minister will answer questions about that and other issues facing his administration tomorrow during question time, the british house of commons. you can see life coverage at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span2. >> all this weekend's live coverage from the texas book festival on book tv with eugene

robinson on the splintering of black america, and sam harris on science and human values. plus authors on the obama presidency and throughout the weekend, panels on medical mysteries, capital punishment, and infamous fugitives. get the entire schedule at book tv.org. >> every weekend on c-span3, experience american history tv, starting saturday at 8:00 a.m. eastern, 48 hours of people and events telling the american story. hear historic speeches by national leaders and eyewitness accounts of events that shaped our nation. visit museums, historical sites, and college campuses as top history professors and leading historians devil into america's past. american history tv all weekend every weekend on c-span3. >> our prime time political coverage continues tonight with an overview of the midterm

elections by correspondants from hotline, the political news website. the second debate between wisconsin's democratic senator russ feingold and his republican challenger followed by the north carolina senate debate with republican incumbent richard burr and secretary of state elaine marshal. that begins at 8:00 eastern. a look at the governor's race in michigan. democratic governor jennifer granholm is stepping down due to term limits. the two candidates met sunday for their only debate. lansing's mayor is running against gateway computers former c.e.o. the republican candidate. the debate held by the nonprofit center for michigan lasted with an hour. a poll released before the debate showed the republican candidate with a 20-point lead. >> i'm rich whomburg and welcome to the great debate. we are pleased that michigan's public television stations are joining with other broadcasters

across the state of michigan to broadcast these only debates between gubernatorial candidates rick snyder and vurge. tonight's debate is part of my vote.org, a voter education problem -- program. tonight's debate is one of the debates you'll find at myvote.org brought to you by the debate debate coalition. 21 community partners make up the coalition to encourage discussion of issues and policies important to the future of michigan and its citizens. following the debate, stay on top of the issues that affect michigan's future at myvote.org. now from the smith studio at detroit's public television's riley broadcast center, public television presents, the great debates. the 2010 gubernatorial debate. >> the great debate is made

possible by the following coalition of business, labor, education, and nonprofit groups. from the smith studio at detroit public television, this is the 2010 gubernatorial debate. >> welcome to the great debates from the smith studio at detroit public television. i'm nolan finley of the detroit news. and steve henderson from the "detroit free press." we are the moderators today of the only debate featuring the two candidates for governor. joining us are republican nominee rick snyder, and democratic nominee virge. >> topics will include economic growth, and effective government. each candidate will have one minute to answer direct questions, one minute for rebuttals. and 30 seconds for moderator

followups. >> we flipped the coin to determine the order of the opening statements. republican rick snyder will go first. >> first of all i'd like to thank the great debate coalition for doing this. why are we here tonight? because we all love michigan. with you our state is suffering. wure in economic disaster. we have a broken government. it's not the time to talk about the problems or dwell on blame. the key is what's the solution? it's time to reinvent michigan. to do that, i'm bringing a clear positive vision, a concise plan, and an attitude of action. the vision, we need to start a new era in our state. it is time for the era of innovation. getting back to our roots of entrepreneurship and innovation. i have a 10-point plan that really focuses on jobs. and then an attitude of action. i'm a proven job creator. i am want to bring real-world commonsense solutions to lansing. for more information go to our website. the other thing going is we need

to repair a broken culture. we need to change our culture in this state. we need to move from being negative to being positive. we need to stop looking in the rear-view mirror and look forward. we need to stop being divisive and get rid of this winlose attitude. it's time to be inclusive and win together. that's the attitude we need. with this framework of vision, plan, and action and this new culture we will create more and better jobs. we will keep our young people in the state. and we will be a great state again. >> mr. bernario, you have two minutes. >> good evening, let's be honest. state government isn't working for regular people. the well connected and wealthy, they get taken care of while regular folks are being left behind. people are hurting. families across michigan are struggling to make ends meet, struggling to make their mortgage payment, hold on to their job, and get their kids a good education. we don't need corporate buzz

words or mission statements at a time like this. we don't need handouts for wall street or bailouts for companies who shift our jobs overseas. we need bold leadership and we neal -- need it now. i have a plan to turn michigan around. to get this economy back on track. the michigan i grew up in is a michigan of opportunity not just for the folks at the top but for everybody. that's the michigan i'm fighting for. i'm getting results in my city. the lansing region has the second lowest unemployment in the state. we have laid out the red carpet instead of the red tape for business, and that's working. we secured half a billion dollars in new investment in my city, 6,000 new jobs. but while i'm busy creating thousands of new jobs here, unfortunately my opponent has shifted thousands of jobs overseas to china and israel as chief executive outsourcer at gateway. but it doesn't stop there. i have to share with you some disturbing news. we have also learned that another of mr. snyder's companies has created jobs in china. as recently as a couple months

ago. mr. snyder is the founder and board director of a company called fasera. that company just finish add new state-of-the-art job creating facility. unfortunately that facility wasn't built in michigan. it wasn't even built in america. that plant and those jobs landed in china. here's what mr. snyder's chief technology officer told the press. quote, it is helping chinese businesses compete and win in the global marketplace. helping chinese businesses to compete and win? yet you want to be our governor? what about michigan workers? what about the 630,000 michiganders looking for work? mr. snyder, how could you? >> well, that was a very good start to this debate. mr. snyder, i want to give you a chance right away to respond to what mr. bernero said. do you own a company that is creating jobs in china? >> they do not have an operation

in china. they are based in san jose, california, and ann arbor, michigan. they are off doing cutting-edge technology and doing work around the world to be successful. but their locations are san jose and ann arbor, michigan. that's where the r&d has been done and that's the technology we are putting in use. with respect to the gateway one, those are also untrue. i have gone through this so many times. gateway, i'm proud of my record. i helped create 10,000 jobs. and -- thank you. i helped create 10,000 jobs and very successfully did that. when the company got in trouble they asked me to come back. i came back as interim c.e.o. and i brought jobs back to the u.s. i brought tech sport, manufacturing jobs back -- support, manufacturing jobs back to the u.s. whydy do that? i understand the value of the american worker. >> mr. bernero, rebuttal.

>> look, as far as gateway, either he lied to the s.e.c. or lying here tonight. he signed off on 10k forms to the s.e.c. clearly aprotching and certifying the outorganizationing that took place. as far as dicera, it's on two websites that they are expanding in china. their own company that he's on the board of put out a press release saying they are moving r&d overseas to china and the specific quote is, we are helping chinese businesses compete and win in the global marketplace. now, it's astounding to me that somebody would run for governor of michigan when we have so many people unemployed, we need to be promoting our technology and getting our businesses on the cutting edge to think that you are investing this kind of time and money in china. what about michigan? what about workers here that need work. the evidence is clear. we need somebody to stand up for michigan, fight for michigan jobs. when i was fighting for the auto industry, you were busy sending jobs to china.

where were you to stand up for the auto industry? >> right to the first question of the debate now. the current governor and legislature are leaving a little gift for the next governor, a $1.6 billion structural deficit. i want to know what sacrifices you will ask of michigan residents to help you fill that hole? will government provide fewer services? or will michiganders pay more taxs? mr. snyder, you're first. >> in terms of what we need to do i talked about this consistently, we need to put in a new budget system. i call it value for money budgeting, to get the outcomes and results instead of the broken mile today which is simply about spending billions of dollars on activities. as part of that we are going to have to look at tough issues. one of the toughest issues the next governor will have to address is public employee compensation. we need to do that in light to understand we are talking about people and their families. it needs to be done in a very thoughtful way where there is shared sacrifice with people. we also need to do a number of things in terms of service consolidation, between all our

jurisdictions. to set the framework for this i call that a real balance sheet be done for the state so we can address these questions and get the facts out to the average citizen. no one knows their facts today. what i'd love to do is get an opportunity in plain language to get a balance sheet out to all of us so we can see how far behind our means we spent. >> mr. bernero, what sacrifices will you ask of michigan residents? >> it's easy to talk about balanced budgets. it's another thing to deliver it. i delivered every budget in the city of lansing on time balanced with no tax increase. the mayor of southfield, nine times, balanced budgets on time, no tax increase, no layoffs, and doubling plus credit rating. that is not easy to maintain in tough times. we did it by setting priorities. we have lansing stat in place in lansing, city stat, where we measure outcomes. we know where everything is going. we know where every dollar is being spent. we'll do same thing in the state of michigan. we'll set the right priorities. there was sacrifice around. the workers have given up. they sacrificed.

i led by example. i cut my pay. i cut my benefits. i gave up the city car. it's important to sacrifice be shared from the top. when times got tough in lansing, i led the way. i sacrificed. i'd ask mr. snyder, when times got tough at gayway, i know 20,000 people lost their jobs and workers. what did you give up? i know you became a multimillionaire? what did you give up? i know the workers, they had the option to stand in the unemployment line. what did you sacrifice? >> i have a quick follow-up to that question. do you think you can make expenses match revenues in lancing? in other words, to eliminate the structural deficit in the first year that you're in office? mr. snyder? >> absolutely the goal. to say it for certainty until you get a chance to dig in it would be difficult to say that. it's only when you get there we get to the full extent of the issues. if you looked at the last budget, there are concerns about the budget there, are those numbers going to happen? not only is next year a problem i'm still concerned about we'll have a hole for the current year.

>> we can and we will. we can and we will balance the budget. without gimmicks. we are not going to rob peter to pay paul. if money is setaside for one thing like the school aide fund, that's what it will be spent on. i have experience doing this. i dealt with it in the legislature. i balanced the budget on time with the legislature. we actually met our obligations. and as mayor, five times in a row, balanced budgets, no tax increase. every year i had people saying we should increase taxes, we tightened our belts, we are delivering more bang for the buck. what we have done in the city of lansing we can do in the state of michigan. >> this issue of outsourcing jobs to china has dominated two elections in michigan. mr. benero, i ask you first, can michigan and its businesses play in the global marketplace without engaging china? >> well, engaging china is one thing, and shipping jobs and r&d -- the important thing about this disera position is they are shipping r&d. they are moving that and helping china to be on the cutting edge.

it's a global economy. we have to operate in a global economy. in lansing, we are competing and winning. we have grown manufacturing, advanced manufacturing every month this year. we recently, it will be voted on monday night at council, secured 1 0 new jobs for a medical manufacturing company. we were competing with indiana and malaysia. but we won those jobs in lansing, michigan. i know we can compete and win. regardless, the fact that rick snyder, my opponent, told the press manufacturing should be put to bed, i don't agree. i think manufacturing was a great part of our past and also a vibrant part of our future. the green automotive future. we can be in the business of manufacturing. we can win. we have to use the incentives. we have to use every tool in the toolbox. we are doing it in michigan. >> mr. snyder, same question to you. can michigan and the businesses play in the loke marketplace without engaging china? >> we need to play every place. that's how you succeed in a global economy. and we have the core to do that.

to go to my opponent's comment there about manufacturing. manufacturing i have been an advocate off. the michigan manufacturers endorsed me. the distortion that we have to suffer through in terms of the unfortunate issues. the other thing i would share with you going back ott other points on gateway and these charges, i will give you the quote from the michigan truth squad on mr. bernero's tv ad. it's a tax on snyder for being responsible for gateway outsourcing are simply untrue. it's too bad we can't talk about the real issue. is jobs, jobs, jobs. we need to stay focused on that and we need to look at how we can export products out of michigan all over the world in terms of opportunity for the future. >> rebuttal, mr. bernero? >> yes, the truth of the matter is the economic development that mr. snyder engages is in is primarily for himself and his friends and pocketbook. another company one he listed is

handy lab recently was sold, and sold to you, for the price of about $275 million. i don't nope how much of that you pocketed from personally. but 50 people are now unemployed in ann arbor because those jobs are going to another state. meanwhile i just won medal technology company in lansing. i'm fighting and winning. i'm fighting for my people. i'm fighting for residents of the state. he's fighting for his own pocketbook. at gateway you signed off on those documents. look the folks in the face, look the michigan residents in the face and tell them you didn't sign those documents to the s.e.c., rick, you didn't sign off on them. you were responsible for them. you want to play this shell game that you were c.e.o. or c.o.o. or on the board. the point is you were in a position of responsibility. why didn't you exercise that responsibility? why didn't you fight the outsourcing? i was fighting general motors, fighting to keep our jobs here. fighting for the auto industry. why didn't you fight the outsourcing? >> mr. snyder, would you like to respond? >> there he goes again. you seem very consistent at least. if he says it enough times it

will become true. these allegations are just incorrect. that's why i talked about the michigan truth squad and such as a third party source of that. we need to be talking about the jobs of today. the real issue that matters here is we have lost a million jobs in michigan. let's put michiganders to work. that's the environment. i'm the proven job creator in this race. >> i would like to ask a follow-up along those lines. how do you create a job? >> well, you set the table for it. that's what government does. that's what i have been doing in lansing. i have $500 million in new investment in my city. cranes in the air. we have laid out the red carpet instead of the red tape. we have cut bureaucracy. city bureaucracy is down 20%. we have put down the welcome mat for our businesses. that's how government can be involved in creating jobs. we have done it. we are getting results. the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. we have cranes in the air. we have people come to lansing. we laid out the environment and need to do that in the state of michigan. >> mr. snyder, how do you create a job?

>> you don't do it by being in government. government doesn't create jobs. government creates an environment where jobs can flourish. i know what it takes to create a job. i have done it many times. i know what it takes during tough times to keep a company going. one of our companies came to a point where the lights were going to go off. the other co-founder and i wrote personal checks seeing what we could do to keep the company going. it later went on to be a success. it's by that determination it is hard work to create jobs. let's get our government out of the way. we have a closed for business sign in michigan right now. we need to be open for business sign. >> mr. snyder, steve asked you earlier about sacrifice and many taxpayers in michigan would like a lot of that sacrifice to come from the public sector workers who have seen their incomes grow 15% over the last decade while per capita income in michigan fell 21%. how much can public sector workers expect to give back under your administration? >> well, there are two parts to that. the first piece is we need to look at what's comparable with

the private sector. and secondly, we need to ask what's financially affordable. those are the two benchmarks. we also need to remember we are talking about people and their families. this is serious issue. so we need to come up with a solution to last for the long-term. how we have done it in lansing the last few years is a failure. it's a peace meal approach. talking about retirement one year. health care the next time. it's the death of a thousand cuts. my view is let's get compensation on the table to see how we do shared sacrifice, including the governor being part of that process. it's all sharing in what needs to be done to get government on a positive path where people don't need to be looking over their shoulders to be tapped on again and they can focus on being more productive, more excited, and looking towards the future instead of looking over their shoulder. >> mr. bernero, what sacrifice can public workers expect? >> if you want to know what a person's going to do the best thing is look at what they have done. when times got tough in lansing, i led by example. i cut my pay. i doubled what i pay for health insurance. i gave up benefits. i didn't ask the workers to

sacrifice. i'll do the same at the state of michigan. i asked mr. snyder to say what sacrifices he made at gateway when he became a mill yar, i didn't get an answer. i asked how many millions he made when handy lab was sold to him when he was president. he talks about jobs he's created. that must have been in the distant past because the only jobs we could find he's creating now are in china, overseas, or in another state. we need somebody who is going to create jobs here in michigan. that's my track record. that's what i have done. that's what we need to be doing. is growing our economy from michigan people, putting michigan people to work. that's what i have done. i know we can compete because we are doing it and we are competing using economic incentives. my opponent has said he's against the use of economic incentives. i say we have to use every tool in the tool box. we can't afford to be hamstrung, to 250eu our hands behind our back, we are in a global economy, we have to use every tool available. >> mr. snyder, you have indicated you wanted to reput? >> i want to give rich credit. he's a great talker. he gets several points in for every one i respond to because

of speed. that doesn't mean there's substance. that's one of those things we need to look at. the success i had was due to the building of the company. that all happened before any jobs in the collapse of the company. the company went through extremely difficult economic times. when i got out of the company -- it's interesting. the mayor doesn't realize, i used to set up two venture firms in our state. most of those proceeds came back to build businesses in michigan and create jobs in our state. and that's what we need to look to do in the future. it's about having success. and taking that success to build the next success. >> if i may have a quick follow-up, mr. snyder, will you follow detroit mayor and forgo your salary? >> that's a very good question. i haven't answered that. i intend 20 make sacrifice, i should. that's only part. the reason i haven't answered that question is i didn't want to be viewed as pandering. i didn't want people voting for me just because i said i wouldn't take a salary. i will clearly take some major sacrifice because it's the right thing to do for our state.

>> mr. bernero, will you forgo your salary? >> well, you're kind of hilarious, nolan. i'm not a multimillionaire like my opponent. i'm sure i will cut my pay. as i said i'll sacrifice along with the other state workers. i can't simply reach into my pockets from years of corporate gains and stock shares that i have cashed in on. i'll need a salary to support myself and my family. >> next question goes to mr. bernero first. for years our chief strategy for creating jobs has been to buy them with tax incentives which is one of the things we are seeing with the very popular film credits right now. is that the right approach? if not, what other things would you do as governor to encourage business growth? >> i wish it was that we didn't need tax incentives. my opponent has taken a philosophical approach saying we should do away with tax incentives. i disagree. i think it would be unilateral disarmament. i may not like the global economy we are in. there's a lot of things i like to change about it, but it's where we are and we need to

compete and win for those jobs today. we are doing it in lansing. i believe it's a question of math and not politics. if the economic incentives are working, we are going to use them. we have used them very effectively to pull down $500 million in new investment in my cities, 6,000 new jobs. it is working. as far as the film tax credits i hate to pull the rug from underneath them right now. i'm starting to see real investments of infrastructure in our state, we need to see those investments and look at the whole picture. we need to look at the actual dollars praut in, the economic impact, the rim effect, the snall businesses that are being attracted and so -- small businesses that are being attracted and son on. we can't be ideologicically base. . if they are working, we keep them. >> mr. snyder, the film tax credits, would you keep them? what other things would you do to create economic growth? >> let's talk about the incentives for a minute. it is a math problem. the math problem is you don't create jobs by buying people

into our state and giving huge checks out to people. you create jobs by having free enterprise work. you have free enterprise work by having the most level playing field you start with. why do we have these massive incentives? in large part because we have a broken tax and regulatory system. instead of putting a band-aid on something. instead of addressing acies sim tock, it's time to eliminate the michigan business tax. it should be replaced with a flat 6% corporate income tax. a regulatory environment is also messed up in the state. as we get our act together there should be fewer needs for incentives in general. they have largely been a political gimmick. i idea we are going out to bring in a few large companies here is not the answer. the comeback to michigan, our michigan businesses being started right here in our state with mi -- michiganders. >> as you both know, this question goes to mr. snyder first, i solicited free press readers for questions, the one i chose came from a young man named daniel o'connor, graduate

student at michigan state university, he lives in royal oak. he asks, the growing section of our economy is services and the growing section of our population is retiring. yet under the current tax system both are largely shielded from taxes. as governor, would you support a revenue neutral structural tax reform bill that shifts the burden towards services and retirees and away from other job providers who would entice more professionals and young families to michigan. >> that's not how you address tax reform. in terms of going after the starting point, our state, given the environment we have, we have to get rid of the job killer, that's the michigan business tax. it is fundamentally unfair. it simply needs to be replaced. i propose replacement with a flat corporate income tax. that would take the business burden off most small businesses because they are not even corporations. that's the right attitude. we need to go from job killer to job creation. it would make us among the most competitive in the country. the next tax on the list after that that is creating havoc is the personal property tax. and that's the environment that

i'm getting recognition from across the state when i go to town halls. people want to see the m.b.t. go away. as i said on the campaign trail. when he this brought it in they replace add single business tax. it's like lansing went to the video store and rented "dumb and dumber." >> mr. bernero. >> it's funny my opponent talks about dumb and dumber, he has one working for him. one of the guys who authored the tax is his lieutenant governor. if you don't want dumb and dumber, don't vote for the republican ticket. we need real reform. no question about that. we'll get that. we need to make michigan the number one place in the country to do business. and we can do that. of course, the m.b.t. surcharge is going to go. pryian kelly helped create it and i'm going to eliminate t i have come up with a fair, exwetible, and we'll work with the business community to do that. i'll never increase taxes on small businesses which is what 6% would be. a lot of businesses paying 1.8%. 6% would treble their tax bill.

i'll never do that. yes, we need to reform this tax system but not with a regressive system. i'm a prayed the proposal would be regressive. i -- i'm afraid the proposal that came in from the reared would be regressive. >> you want to rebuttle. >> i think it's appropriate. it's one thing how you adrose things. it's another thing to be negative on people. to make the comment about my lieutenant governor candidate, i mean, that's just not the right way. brian kelly fought hard to put in that provision you talked about. the small business credit, to bring down the burden on small businesses. he was the leader in doing that. to put it in perspective, your comment about increasing tax liabilities and after it, again, it's getting to the facts. at that takes that burden out of proprietorships, s corporations, and sole proprietorships, they wouldn't pay any tax under the system because they are paying a double tax today. we don't need to get bogged down in taxes other than to say the m.b.t. is bad. simply reducing the surcharge is

not the answer. if you have a dumb tax and you reduce it by 20%, you still have a dumb tax. it fundamental will i needs to be eliminated. >> you have called for moratorium on mortgage foreclosures in michigan. are you worried about the unintended consequences of such a measure such as more people deciding not to mail in their monthly payment? >> i'm worried about the consequences of the fraud and the problems, the mistakes that are happening from wall street pressing down on our people. we need to stop that immediately. i'm delighted, pleased that bank of america has said they are going to stop in michigan immediately. we need the other wall street banks to follow suit. we need a moratorium for all the people so they can review their practices. i had' say -- i say we should err on the side of the homeowner. the vast majority of people, nobody's trying to trick the bank. nobody's trying to hold back. people are good people. they are going to pay their bills. i just find it interesting, my opponent is willing to side with the bangs, to immediately assume

they are doing everything right. i can't assume that. i have seen too many mistakes. we fought to keep thousands of people in their homes in michigan in lansing through a program hold on to your home.org. we need to err on the side of keeping people in their homes. it will help not only them but the other folks struggling, all the other folks impacted. when one person, a home goes down, the property values of all the others suffer. >> thank you. mr. snyder, next question to you. you call your -- i'm sorry. we missed you. ok. we don't want to rush you. >> that's fine. i appreciate that. in terms of the issue of a moratorium and such. first of all people are suffering. this is extremely difficult economic times. blanket moratorium isn't right. the mayor called for a two-year moratorium on mortgages, i believe. he believe president obama came out today and talked about how that would not be a good idea. in you looked at the moratorium idea, the last time that was done, was back in the depression and that led to the banks being

closed. when 34 states did the same thing. we have to have good programs to help people suffering. they are there and we need to deal with those appropriately. the other thing is if any bank's doing anything wrong, there are rules to deal with that. we need to strongly enforce those rules. if someone's out of line, particularly when you talk of someone's home, we need to stand up for those people and deal with the bangs doing the bad things. >> you want a rebuttal? >> we have to remind the gentlemen under the rules you two negotiated, you each got three rebuttals. and this will exhaust those rebuttals for both candidates. >> i just wanted to give a news flash to my opponent the banks are doing plenty of things wrong and the rules arnts working. this might come as a shock to you. i know it doesn't so much affect the people at the top. but regular folks are being put upon. the banks are getting away with murder. i'm here to tell you. we see it every day. there's an example of it in your newspaper, steven. we'd the "free press" i can give you a whole lot more from the

folks. i'm sure you can talk to your folks. there's plenty of abuse going on around this state with people being kicked out of their homes. it needs to stop now. yes, i say, err on the side of keeming people -- keeping people in their homes. don't err on the side of the banks. they made plenty of mistakes and hurt plenty of people. you can see there's a clear difference here. my opponent says the rules are working fine. if you think the rules are working fine, the bangs are treating people fairly, he's your guy. i don't believe that. i'm going to take action. i'm going to use my position as governor to protect regular folks. >> thank you. now for that next question. mr. snyder, you call yourself one tough nerd. the nerd part we get, but are you tough enough to play political hardball when the situation calls for it? >> absolutely. i'm proud of my track record. as a successful businessperson you need to learn with deal with people both in terms of dealing with customers, suppliers, all those kinds of situations. i have been very successful working through those. in fact, one illustration i'll

give you from the gateway experience was, we negotiate patent license was people to sell our products. the companies i had to negotiate with were people that wanted to put us out of business. compact, dell, i.b.m. i was able to work through those effectively and make situations where we could respect one another, we fundamentally disagreed but were able to come up with tough conclusions. i have a great track record in the community setting. not adversarial situations but by bringing a community together. of the university, the private sector, the public sector, and create a partnership that led to many jobs being created in our community. >> mr. berner, you called yourself an angry mayor. is anger an effective tool for building much needed bipartisanship? >> i was dubbed that by fox news or cnn when i was fighting for the auto industry. i don't mind that. i think a lot of people are

angry and hurting. it's not enough to be angry. it's how you use that anger and passion. i have used it to stand up for working people and proud of my record. and look, i have had to fight people who wanted to increase taxes in lansing. i have gotten the job done. the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. i have gotten the job done in the city of lansing. it's tough to govern and be mayor of the city. you better be tough. you better be able to channel anger and passion. my opponent says he's tough enough. he's certainly tough enough to profit and send jobs overseas and send jobs to other states. he's tough enough to stand up and pocket money even when people here are losing their jobs. he may be a little tougher than me in certain regards. i put my anger, my passion to good use, i think. i'm ready to do the job as governor to lead the state forward. >> next question, mr. bernero first. there is a documentary "waiting for superman" takes a hard swipe at teacher tenure. here in michigan we have some of the strongest laws in the country. you have the strong support of teacher unions in this state.

if you are elected, can you stand up to them and ask them to take another look at tenure and maybe revisit whether it's time for reform? >> i haven't seen the movie yet, steven, you may know my wife is a 20-year plus public educator. my heart goes out to all those educators out there, the first educators, the parents, doing the job with our children. i appreciate what you do day in and day out. education is near and dear to our heart. we think every child deserves a quality, top quality public education and i work hard every day. teacher tenure, happy to revisit that. who better to do it, to talk to the unions than somebody who is ho has been working with them. if you look at the record a as mayor, i have stood up. i appreciate their support, but they have had to make concessions. they have had to sacrifice like the u.a.w. and g.m. i made sacrifices. we have to change the way we do things. absolutely. we have to change. we have to compete and win in today's economy. the teachers i know want those kids to compete and win.

and will do what it takes to make sure that happens. >> mr. snyder, is it time to revisit teacher tenure? >> absolutely. that and other things. we have a failed education system. the kids are not the goal anymore. it's too much about spending money. all they talk about lance something this funding level or that funding lesm. the fundamental question behind it all is what do we need to do to get our keds and education each and every year that's successful. we need to look at tenure, merit, there are many things we need to look at. we do want our frontline teachers to be successful. it's not about being hard on them. it's about creating an environment for success. and letting them win. and feel empowered. with respect to the dollars and how that works in terms of are you being influenced, i'm a candidate that sat up and said last year that i would take a dollar for special interest money. i'm proud to say i can look anyone in the eye i have no baggage. i have no special interest ties. my only interest is to represent all the people of the states of

michigan. >> next question goes to mr. snyder first. michigan's troubled urban centers need help. typically the discussion about that in the state centers around revenue sharing which we know has been dwilling in he recent years. i would like both of you to talk about ways other than revenue sharing that lansing might be able to aid laces -- places like detroit or lansing. >> sure, if you look at one of the roles of governor is not run the cities but be their best partner. michigan can be a great state. detroit is on the path to be a great city. the right way to do that is partner. and the mayor has an illustration with the city council. we have a great opportunity but on their own they'll run into structural barriers. the state should be there to help break through the barriers. to do what needs to be done. that gets to thing like value for money budgeting. take a new approach on how they allocate dollars where they show tangible outcomes that positively impact real people

instead of simply spending dollars. the other thing is we should look at our communities and how we engage the neighborhoods more. it's not about lansing doing everything. one of the words i don't like is i'm here from lansing, here to help. that makes me nervous. how do we engage our communities and do public-private partnerships where we do things on the ground where the people there are taking the charge and making the difference. >> what about help from lancing? >> as you know, brenda lawrence and i are mayors on main street. we are two mayors from main street if anybody knows what our city is up against it's us. we are on the frontlines. we make sure the 9-1-1 call gets answered and the garbage gets picked up. we are working with small business every day, small business, medium business, and big business. we are negotiating for a new global platform, a $200 million expansion. 640 jobs. or cities need to be the hub of the wheel and not the hole in the doughnut. detroit is the face of michigan. anybody who believes we are

going to move michigan forward and leave detroit behind is kidding themselves. we need to look at economic development policies, transportation policy, yes, revenue sharing policy. we need to look at all those in terms how it affects our cities. the fastest growing states have the fastest growing cities in them. we ignore that at our own peril. that's not just coincidence. we need to pay attention to our cities. we need to do a wetter job and look at the economic development plan. i have specific strategies and urban agenda to help bring back our cities. we must do this. >> the census numbers released last week do a direct link between a state's educational attainment and its prosperity. what would you do to fix the public schools, to support the universities, and make michigan senatorer? -- smarter? >> wife been talking about economic development as though it's just bricks and mortgage' and jurors -- mortar and jobs and companies. we need to invest here in michigan and not overseas. but we also have to recognize as i think your question does that

education is economic development. that's where it begins. when i travel around the state, somebody asked me once, what's the next big thing for michigan? if we had cars -- i'm not giving up on cars, what's the next big thing? i thought about it for a minute and my answer was the next big thing is in the mind of a child. sitting in a classroom in detroit. or in bloomfield or pontiac or grand rapids or flint. the next big thing is in the mind of a child. we have to make sure that every child is nurtured. that every child gets that quality education. a full all-day kindergarten and good classroom education with music, art, and p.e. and support our great university system because that's where economic development begins. >> mr. snyder, how do you make michigan smarter? >> that's absolutely critical. education is the forefront of that. that's one reason i like to talk about the system not as separate buckets but as p-20. early childhood through lifelong learning. that's what matters. you start with the earl will

childhood. it's not the government doing it. we need to reinforce that and give the kids an opportunity at the youngest ages, when they are in disadvantaged situation, k through 12, again that's a situation i talked about. lansing talks about funding. it's all about spending money. let's start talking about how we measure success. how we make sure the kids are getting a great education. look at merit and opportunities for teachers to succeed. and then our higher ed system we are truly blessed with one of the best in the world. but we need to engage them more in the process. first of all, they need to be more cost efficient. they need to be looking at things like value for money budgeting. at the same time they are one of our key economic development engines. that's one of the ways we are really going to succeed in naminging in our economy. it's about jobs, jobs, jobs. >> particular follow-up, gentlemen, if you are going to make education a priority, i assume you are going to send spend more money on it. what will you spend less money on? welfare, corrections? where would you get the money?

>> i balanced five straight budgets with no tax increase. every year i had council people say we got to increase taxes, we need more money. we tightened our bets belts. i led with sacrificing myself. i cut $42 million in deficit. we are going to have our tighten our belts in state government. i intend to find out where every dollar is spent. similar to lansing staff i have done in lansing to measure every dollar so we know where it's coming from. we are going to be more efficient and we are not going to go to the people and say you have to pay more. >> mr. snyder, same question to you. what would you cut to provide more funding for education? >> that's part of that whole process of value for money. specifics in that would again be back to public employee compensation for people in the educational system. we need to look at that. we have to recognize you are talking people and their families. the other thing is we need to look at service consolidation. we have 500-plus school districts and charter schools.

between all those school districts there's got to be ways to have more opportunity not for legal consolidation but service consolidation in terms of adding efficiencies. i believe the dollars are there. we need to look at those dollars about how we can supply them on the frontlines. >> mr. snyder, your opponent tonight has tried to paint you as a heartless c.e.o. how can voters be sure if you are elected governor you won't be carrying the chambers water but representing the interest of the taxpayers and all the people in michigan? >> that's why i said i wouldn't take a dollar of p.a.c. or special interest money. we need a government representing all the people. my whole campaign's about being inclusive and winning together. that's the focus. i grew up in a 900-square foot home. i worked my way through college. i understand those challenges. i mentioned earlier about keeping the company going by writing personal checks torques keep those jobs for people. that's the kinet of attitude. i have given a lot back to the community. we need to stay in touch.

i help create ann arbor spark, an organization to create jobs. and it came through bigtime when pfizer closed up and we lost 2,000 jobs. we were able to keep over 800 people and their families in our state with that attitude. that's the approach i'll bring to lansing. is it's about michiganders working and winning together. >> mr. bernero, your campaign is heavily fansed bye labor unions, will you abable to say no to those unions when it comes time to enact reforms they may object to? >> if you want to know what a person is going to do, look what they have done. i stood up to the unions when i had to in my city. i would not have a double-a plus credit rating if i had given the unions everything they wanted. we led together. we worked together. my labor leaders sat with me at the table. we attacked the problems instead of each other. they have made concessions. they have made painful concessions. i gave things up. my cabinet members gave things up. that's the way it's got to be. i asked before, what did mr. snyder give up.

when those workers were eliminated. when the workers were eliminated at handy lab, what did he give up? the first thing was $2p 5 million for that company. he got -- $275 million for that company. he got out while the ging was good. i have been standing up for main street. his experience is something else. he's involved in economic development. yes. but it's for himself and the folks at the top. i'm worried about everything. i'm worried about the community. i think when you create a middle class, that's when you create the future. that pays off. there is a magic about taking care of the people in the middle not just the people at the top. >> next question goes to mr. bernero first. you have become fond of saying this is ther-ea of bipartisanship n that sparet i would like each of you to tell me what about the -- your opponents' campaign you like and tell me what would worry you about him being governor if he's elected. >> well, of course there's very little about his campaign i like. as far as him, i like the fact that he's a family man.

his family is included. he talks about his wife helping him make the decision run for governor. that's similar to my situation. i respect that. i like the bus. he calls it the nerd mobile. i kind of like it. i can't afford one. i like the town hall meeting if he would invite regular folks and have it be a debate. i offered -- this is our only debate we are getting. i wanted more. i said -- i appreciate how you treated me when i came to the one. they were folks for rick and very polite to me. let let's 1r -- let's have real town hall meetings. you call it a town hall but a real one. he want agreelable to that. this is the only debate. the only chance people have. i feel bad about that. i wish that he would have come back with the three. he originally agreed to three. i wanted eight. we have just this one debate. i think people deserve more time to see you answer questions unscripted. >> mr. snyder, ideas part of mr.

bernero's campaign and if elected what would worry you? >> i'm going to pass on the second part of that. in particular, i mean, i give the mayor credit. he loves michigan. that's why we are both doing this. we love our state, we have a state that's suffering. he mentions my family. i respect his family. i have had the opportunity to actually have a dinner where his daughter was sitting at the same table. he's got a great family. that's something to be admired and respected. in terms of those things, we want to have good people in the political process. in terms of the issues, again, we don't have a lot in common in terms of how we approach things. i'm a positive person. unfortunately we have had too many negative things go on. but i'm not going to spend time on that. i will go back to his comment that he made comments about handy lab and other companies. in fact, when the company was sold, many, many of the employees shared in that. they had an opportunity to win. they weren't exclude interested that process.

they had stock ownership just like i did. it was the same method i shared they shared. i believe in that and having them participate in that process and have the opportunity to win. now they are going off to create new companies. many of the people have left and they are being entrepreneurs in other places. >> mr. snyder first, states that have held the income growth have one thing in common. they generously support their institutions of higher ed. meanwhile here in michigan we are one of a handful of states that spends more on prisons than higher ed. if you are elected governor, would you change that? if so, how. >> we do need to invest in higher ed. it's one of the great assets of our state. we have our natural resources. higher ed system. we have several other things. those are the gems we have. they are being threatened in terms of our higher ed system. a lot of that we do need to get to this issue of being more efficient. we need to ask them to look at new ways of doing things. focusing on being the very best on the frontlines with instruction and research and helping our kids succeed.

it has become costly. the other thing is i think we need to look at need-based assistance to our students. again, the michigan which helped everything was very noble. in terms of priorities, we need to help the kids in the biggest need. we need to define need more broadly because there are people in the middle that need an opportunity to get their kids to college. let's create an environment of success and let them go ahead an have an opportunity to get a great education. i know what it's like. i paid for my own. i worked my way through school. today that would be very difficult given the cost features they face today. >> thank you. well, certainly we need to reverse that trend. we have to do a better job with our correction system f we had another hour we could debate about the correction system. no doubt we need to do a better job. recidivism rate of 40%, 50% is far too much. we are not dealing with their adictions and the issues, mental health and others, we need to do a wet job getting them treatment. so they don't end up in prison. we can save a lot of money which

we can redirect to education. i want to give a shot out to all the students out there. i know there's a lot of students watching, debate gatherings. thank you for your interest. you can make a difference. this is your state, too. we are looking out for you. we want to stop the brain drain. we want you to stay here. i intend to restore the michigan promise. my opponent is saying he's opposed to that. i don't know if that's correct. that's what it says. we need to arm our priss -- prisoners with education. let's do a better job and we'll be able to put more money into education. to keep tuition costs down. share with us and tighten your belts so we can stop this constantly increasing tuition. >> follow-up to that. mr. snyder, you support increasing funding for prek and other early education programs especially those aimed at low-income families. if so, how do you pay for it? >> we talked about that a little before. that is something we need to find the resources before. before we start talking about the government doing it, i would

like to take leadership how we do it in public, private partnerships. i go back to my days even in sioux city when i was at gateway. they had a fabulous program, success by six. it was a public-private partnership. it did fabulous work on helping those kids in the age group succeed. before we look at the government showing up with people from lansing saying we are here to help, let's figure out how we can work together through our communities and have the government play a coordinating resource. >> look, again, this is science and not politics. we node how vital those 0 to 5 years are. it matters. it makes a difference. there's a reason for us to get in there and make sure children have great care. they have preschool in that period. that whole 0 to 5 continuum, we need to pay better attention to that. we know from the ipslanta perry school, it works. every dollar we put into that has a payoff down the road.

it will be a priority. we'll make it a priority. >> this campaign is about economic issues but michigan issues are never far from the surface. can you tell us where you stand on the issues of abortion, gay marriage, affirmative action? >> sure. affirmative action, we are stuck with a state law that says the state constitution said there won't be any. we are working hard in my city to make sure we continue to have a diverse police force, diverse work force by doing recruiting so that our work force reflects the diversity of the community. i am 100% pro-choice. i believe in a woman's right to choose. i don't believe the government should interfere between a woman and her doctor and her faith if she wishes. i think those are personal decisions that should be left to that. on the issue of gay marriage. we have a state constitutional provision in place. i do support civil unions. i personally don't have any problem with gay marriage. i don't have a problem with a

personal monogamy. if somebody wants to spend their life with one person, i think that's a good thing. i don't know why government would want to step in the way of that. i think we should look at domestic partnerships and civil unions that can be done without proaching that constitutional requirement restriction that's there. .

what even u.s. governor is, by creating jobs, and one of the best answers we can get is creating jobs to help abortions go down overall. >> we have time for one last question. we know that michigan has the worst road in the nation. would you support an increase in the gasoline tax to fix that? >> kreider not support that, we need to get efficient first. if you go around the state, the roads are terrible. but let's tighten the belts to fix the roads that need to be fixed. a classic administration the use from the michigan game area, two lanes are permanently closed.

at the same time, i live near u.s. 23. they just build a pedestrian bridge across the u.s. 23 at the cost of billions of dollars. one-quarter mile south there is a bike and pedestrian path. let's get efficient about where we are deploying this money. that is what we should focus on first. >> would you support a gasoline tax to support -- fix the roads? >> as mayor i am on the front lines. i can speak much more about the details and materials. there is never enough money. the question is, is now the right time? can we get by without it? i think that we can find the money. i will go to the administration and ask them to forgive us the amount given the dire straits that michigan is in, that we

can still get the federal dollars without paying the match. in the long run we have to look at how we fund the roads as well, especially as we make the move towards more fuel-efficient vehicles. it could be the case that we increase the gas tax. we have to look at the comprehensive approach to the other important priorities in our budget. >> thank you, a gentleman. we have to move closely to -- quickly toward closing statements. mr. snyder? >> you have been presented with two options. the mayor goes back to the traditional political world. that model does not work anymore, it is the model of the last century. we have people crying out for more and better jobs. the way that we will do that is with a clear and a positive vision, a 10.

plan to create jobs as well as an attitude of action, representing all of us, saying that it is time for common sense, real-world solutions. is it time to change our culture? we need to move from looking on the rearview mirror to out to the future. we need to stop being so divisive and be inclusive, creating winning environments where the only label that matters is michigander. bringing that focus and fire. i am fired up to do this and i hope that you will join me. this is our one chance. we have 10 million people saying that it is time for more and better jobs. time to be a great state again. >> mr. benero. >> my father left italy in 1948 for a chance at the american

dream and he found it in michigan. not in vast riches or an analyst bank account, but in hard work, decent pay, and a family that loved him. the michigan that i grew up in is the michigan opportunity period they were right, america was that kind of place, led by michigan. michigan was the state at the top. we were the arsenal of democracy. i believe that we can make the things that make america great again. i know because i have seen in fell the spirit entrepreneurship all-around as great state. this state is poised for renewal. i believe that we can and will make michigan work again. but it will take more than happy talk and buzzwords. we need to stand together and fight. when the automobile industry was under attack, i organized mayor's from around the country,

fighting for michigan. michigan needs a fighter now. this election offers us a clear choice between the values of main street and wall street, standing up for the men and women across the state. or is it the value of wall street, putting the interest of fat cats first? a chance for standing up for small businesses and domestic manufacturing, or of being part of the wall street greed that has all but destroyed michigan's economy. this is the fight of our lives. will you not join me in standing and fighting for the mission given that we love? the one that brought my father and so many others to michigan from around the globe? i know that we can do it, putting michigan back on top. i am asking for your support. >> thank you, mr. snyder, mr. benero, for joining us.

i am stephen henderson. >> off for everyone at detroit public television and the great debate coalition, thank you for watching. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> our prime-time political coverage will continue tonight with an overview of the midterm elections by editors and correspondence from hot line. and then the second debate between ross fine gold and ron johnson. followed by the north carolina senate debate with richard burt

and delay martial beginning at 8:00 eastern. from this morning's political headlines, politico is reporting in colorado, ken bunt is backing away from one of the health care reform attacks. accusing the incumbent senator of being untruthful in advertisements, he says that his party has not always been completely honest on the medicare issue. defazio has noted that if his party to a majority he may vote for someone other than the current speaker, nancy pelosi. "anytime that you suffer big losses in business or politics, you need to step back and ask if we need to make some changes." new hampshire and the candidate for governor face-off, john

lynch is running for reelection. his fourth term. he is running against john stevens. no governor in the state's history has ever been elected for four terms. polls held before the debate showed the current governor leading by 51% to 41%. >> new hampshire public television. >> hello, everyone. welcome to the candidates' forum on business and the economy. we are coming to you live from our studio d. over the next hour we will hear new hampshire democratic and republican candidates for governor discussing some of the

most important issues of our time. we will press them to find out what they would do as governor and hopefully reframe from attacking each other. there is a third candidate on the ballot, libertarian john babyard, who did not meet the criteria. during the first part of the forum, but analysts will ask questions. then we will move on to the lightning round, decisive responses to brief questions. then i will moderate two ways between the candidates before closing. some of the questions came from readers, listeners, and viewers. we tossed a coin earlier to see who would kick things off. the first questioner from the --

the first question comes from tom. >> what are your specific proposals to close the budget gap, governor, estimated to be at $600 million? >> first of all i would like to thank public radio and union leaders for hosting this discussion. i would also like to thank my wife, who is here and has done a wonderful job as first lady and is a big support to me. i have already instructed department heads to reduce their budgets by 5%, which is what we will continue to do as we move forward. we are also in the midst of significant changes to health and human services as they transform the way that they do businesses. looking at my record, looking at what i have done, six months ago we were facing a shortfall. $300 million. spending has been cut to 7.1%.

we balance the budget and generated a $60 million surplus. we did it. no sir -- no sales tax, no income-tax, no capital gains, no increase in business taxes. it is quite remarkable what we are able to do. we have the fourth lowest state spending, streamlining state spending and business backgrounds to do things like centralized purchasing, putting more purchasing online. i will approach what we did the same way i think about the next biennium. three ratings it -- three ratings agencies across the conservative balance sheet that we have in place. as i think about the next budget, it will be zero based, my approach in the private sector, making sure that we spend every dollar as carefully

and conservatively as we can. i think that my approach has been in stark contrast to john stevens, who said he would cut the budget across the board, which i do not think is the way to do it, that is simplistic and reckless. >> in this budget we have had hundreds of millions of dollars in one time money from the federal government in the form of the stimulus package. at this point there must be some programs you are familiar with that you feel can be changed. can you give us specifics? >> one is health and human services. as you have heard me say before, health and human services is a distribution system right now. for the most part they contract out with organizations, contacting out with 4000 different organizations in their system, which is far too fragmented and inefficient. each of these organizations as

boards, executive directors, administrative costs. i want to make that system much more efficient. i would rather invest in state dollars, putting that money directly towards the people. some of these nonprofit organizations say that the governor wants to make us go out of business because he may not care about children or the elderly. i would like to rationalize the system because i care about children and the other -- elderly, i would rather invest those dollars in delivering the services to people directly rather than administrative costs. >> another question for mr. stephens? >> you have priced this budget gap at $800 million. what proposal do you propose as a budget solution? >> thank you for the question.

also, thank you to new hampshire public television. i also want to think the governor for being here today. i believe, strongly, that we are facing a nearly $800 million deficit. i have said that from the beginning of the campaign. when you are over $156 million to put into the budget, not one piece of land has been sold and now the committee is looking at borrowing from the cigarette distribution. we are continuing to kick the can down the road. if we care about our children, we would not spend a 24% increase in spending. i believe strongly in values about fiscal responsibility, low taxes, limited government, going to $11.5 billion. those of the budgets that were

passed and signed into law by the governor. i would not have signed a the government -- the budget and a lot, which is why we are in this situation, and i did say 10% across the board. i did that before as commissioner. finding ideas on efficiency, innovation, numerous finance employees in every department. yet we have a department administration charged with business functions. i agree with you, 18 months ago you said you wanted to consolidate contracts. you have not moved forward on any of those proposals. we have got to start exhibiting tough leadership and making tough decisions. i know that in the commercials that you saw this week, we have got to stop spending money the way we have been spending money in new hampshire. i will hold the line, keep my

eye on the ball, and make those tough decisions. >> can you give us some examples? i know that you mentioned hr in your previous debates, but two are also talking about cutting taxes with a budget gap at the same time. >> since 2007, under the governor we have gone according to the issue with the highest business taxes in the nation, they are not helping small businesses. $30 million is what they needed in the last budget and governor lynch past the small business income tax. that is a job killer. i did not say that we would cut taxes right away, i said that the first thing that we would do is balance this deficit. that i want to make sure that we deliver to our businesses. we can look at managed care for medicaid, which could save up to $300 million per year.

i wish that the governor would look to the other governors that have passed managed care in their state. we need to do that. we also need to be more efficient. there are areas in our budget where we can look to reduce. >> for a moment, before we go to my colleague, is this a good idea about consolidating those contracts? >> i want to go back to what john said about cutting spending by 10% across the board. half of what the state spends is aid to cities and towns. if he cuts that by 10%, we will see massive local property tax increases, guaranteed. 30% of what we spend its money for health and human services. i read the reports that john stevens is talking about. the money is not there that he claims. we are looking at managed care.

meaning that half the spending is of ford because he will not cut aid -- he will cut aid to sittings and towns, cutting 10% to the university and community college system will result in tuition increases. >> we do have a question about higher education, but i need to give him a chance to jump in. are you going to down shift money to the cities and towns? >> the governor is being sued for downshifting in the last budget. look, it increased from $9.5 billion to $11.5 billion. $2.2 billion in four years, which is not representative of the new hampshire way. we have done this before, we were facing a deficit when i was appointed as commissioner of health and human services, within four years returning money to the taxpayers and

leaving with a rainy day fund that was just rated at over $100 million. >> i will turn it back to my colleagues. bill lavan, you are next with a question. >> mr. stevens, those working in the new hampshire health care sector say that the state is dramatically under-funding medicaid and that the impact is hospitals and doctors making up the loss by shifting those costs. this problem has only grown in recent years. as governor, how would you address this problem? >> i would do what i started to do as commissioner, bring transparency with more competition. well i was commissioner i went down to look at what we were paying for medicaid. we paid one provider $3,000. another one? $5,000. but it did not matter, the quality was there and medicaid paid the bill.

we still have that inefficient system in place. i will do what i can, looking at this whole area of regulation. our regulatory environment has only increased over the last four years. you cannot even get through insurance regulations. if you are a provider, mandate after mandate, there has to be a new system here. we have a federal government that just as obamacare, embraced by our governor, it will downshift the state budget over 10 years. we have a provider in manchester that makes prosthetic devices for veterans that come home from the war, helping them get back to their lifestyle as best they possibly can. he has no clue today in new hampshire what the tax will be

on his prosthetic devices and he is not growing jobs because of it. we must fight obamacare because it hurts jobs. i will make sure that we joined a lawsuit against this bill and the governor has not done that. i will also make sure that we reform health care the right way. >> you mentioned obama health care reform. would you repeal it? >> i am not running for federal office. i have no authority to do that. two things that i would do, quickly, first and foremost i would join the lawsuit to make sure that new hampshire is the next stage to join the lawsuit, which the governor has not done. i would also ask for health care choices axed to pass, saying that no person in the state of new hampshire shall be forced by any government to join a health care plan that is not of their choice. we should not be forcing them into a plan. and i want to make sure that we are doing the right way, less in

the regulatory environment, bringing more people into the state with transparency so that we know the true costs for these medical procedures. >> some of those benefits, what would you take away from those who are already taking didn't advantage of the reform? >> we will make sure that the system is done in a more cost- effective way. we are talking about making sure that individuals have the ability and choices in a competitive environment, in the state of wisconsin, where a single individual plan is $2,000 per year. just over $4,000 for a single individual plan in new hampshire. massachusetts, close to $10,000. what is the difference? when you bring competition, lessening regulation, giving the people of this state more

choices and allowing for transparency so that they know what they're paying for, believe me, the cost of health care will come down for everyone. >> what can be done to reduce cost shifting to businesses? >> john stevens record, going back to his work as commissioner, it goes to eliminating coverage for tens of thousands of seniors, children, pregnant women. he wants to cut medicaid by $300 million. over half the budget. the only way did you will do that is throwing seniors and pregnant women off of the roles. the only way you would be able to achieve that savings. what we are seeing right now in health and human services, as opposed to the private sector, where if revenue and costs go down, costs go up in human services driven by higher unemployment.

first, we need to get away from fee-for-service. which is a big part of how the bills are paid. we need to get away from fee- for-service can get away from incentives, which promotes greater utilization. we have embraced five pilot programs for which the goal is to focus on patient outcomes. pay people for performance. get everyone working together to improve patients' quality and out comes, focusing on that rather than paying for future services. i do think that we need to promote greater transparency, but i do not agree with his comment on competition. there is a right way to promote competition and a wrong way. his idea is to get more insurance company networks in place, but that is not what the evidence shows you. you need competition at the

point where the disease is treated. that is where you add value. which is the cost for the outcome. we need to reinvent the way that we deliver health care here, getting away from fee-for- service and utilization, focusing on transparency and the point at which the commissioner works. >> health care was expensive when you took office. what more can be done that has not been? >> as i said, we need to get away from fee-for-service and utilization. a complicated problem. we spend 18.5% of our gross national product on health care, which is too much. if we do not control costs things will get to 22% of state products, squeezing out our ability to invest in areas like

education. these accountable care organizations will allow us to focus more on patient outcomes rather than fee-for-service. we promoted greater transparency, as i talked about. technology can do for health care what it has done for many other businesses, improving quality, customer service, stabilizing costs. we now have prescription medical providers that can provide prescriptions electronically. more electronic rap -- medical records are a way to stabilize costs. >> another question for the governor? >> governor lynch, financial reasons for 150 investors losing in a scheme under the watch of three different state agencies, who is to blame for the changes

that need to be made? >> first of all, we all had empathy and compassion for those that lost money. and we need to bring those people that committed the crime to justice, prosecuting them to the fullest extent of the wall. we had a thorough and exhaustive report from the attorney general. the fbi is involved. i do not think that we need another -- another organization investigating. what we need to do is move forward. there needs to be more collaboration amongst each department, like greater sharing of information among some departments so that this does not happen again. that needs to happen before, when apartments -- departments were not speaking to each other.

there were three agencies involved. we are dealing with leadership issues, which is always important. but we need to promote greater collaboration amongst state agencies to make sure that something like this does not fall through the cracks. that is what i am working on, implementing the recommendations proposed. >> does it stop with you? >> we all have a responsibility. the first is with banking and the attorney general's office. >> mr. stephens? >> do is to blame and what -- who is to blame and what needs to change? >> i read that attorney general's report. the issue in that report was all about finger-pointing. there were real victims that were harmed. this was a tragic set of circumstances.

i am so glad that those responsible are being held accountable. but it is all about leadership. we need an independent counsel to make sure that this never happens again. we had a committee hearing of legislators and governors from the executive branch, which should take the lead in finding out why this happened and making sure that never happens again. if it is involving other agencies, you have got to bring someone else in in terms of getting responsible answers. the other issue regarding leadership, it is important to know, the governor is communicating. i have directors. we all met all the time, we got together and did whatever was best for the people of the state, but we did it in collaboration. i have been speaking to state

employees and others, we have not had this kind of collaboration. at the end of the day we are facing an $800 million deficit that is historic. it is historic because the governor has not made the tough decisions. the governor mentioned earlier that he cut general fund spending. when you take one quarter of a billion dollars offline, close to $100 million, $90 million of borrowing school aid out of the general fund, that is what the governor calls a cut. we need responsible leadership in state government. >> how much blame is born? >> i hold that any department head needs to be held accountable, but it stops with

the governor. on a weekly basis, finding out the things going on. for example, the commissioner of transportation filed the request interstate 93. let the commissioner of transportation tell them they're bringing a toll road to 93. it was not until the community was as -- outrage that, >> is about leadership. first of all, leadership begins

with ethics and integrity. johnson knows that i do not support a toll on the border of interstate 93. he does that but he is using it for politics because he wants to be governor, a way to get more votes with the people. >> york commissioner did that without consulting with you. >> i meet with commissioners regularly. it starts with leadership and building a team. health and human services did not want to work with him they did not trust each other. i have been able to build a team of department heads that get along with a teller a group is

getting the other to streamline the permit process, i am proud of the department heads that we have and of the team we have built up. to give your thoughts on what the governor said about your leadership style? with department heads leading me as they did not want to be fiscally irresponsible. maybe they did not like where i was going or at the end of the day all stops with the governor.

i would as you, look at these samples. if i was a republican and the president was a republican, i would stand out to the feeble, coming into washington and impacting. i want to talk about the north country economy. >> this paper mill could wind up having to shut down. in the north country unemployment is highest in the state. we told residents to hang in there twice. is that the best that we have to offer workers? >> hang in there, november 2 is

coming close. i want to make sure that they know i am a governor that will listen to their concerns. from the days that i've prosecuted cases in the north country to the days i was commissioner, traveling the entire north country, meeting to understand concerns, they have different concerns in the southern part of the state. as a candidate, i have travelled across this entire state all summer and all spring. i drove on the trails. there is so much opportunity there in the trails off. the people in the north country are special, but we have got to stop being an obstacle. there was a small business income tax that was passed because the governor needed to find $30 billion in revenue in a

budget that was $11.5 billion. the governor did not look for $70 million in spending cuts. passing an income-tax on the smallest businesses in our state. one farmer that i met with had to pay over $4,000 into the income tax. that is a job killer and not how you will help the north country. i have even said to them, i will have an office space meaning that once every 60 days people can come and visit. right now it is the fraser paper mill and other areas that need help. this is not about politics, it is about making sure that there is a rapid response to help those that will be unemployed. >> the bad economic news that comes out of the north country

involves the paper and pulp industry. is it dead in new hampshire? >> if we were able to deliver tax cuts here, we would have the highest business tax rate in the nation. it would be nice if we could, for once, stand up for the business community and say that we will deliver a tax cut so that new hampshire leads the region in the lowest tax rate for businesses. but we cannot do that until we are able to balance the budget that has an $800 million shortfall because of the tough decisions that the governor did not make. >> you have put forth a number of initiatives to help the county. why are these approaches not working? >> i wanted to mention the llc tax. what i think about llc, llc is the john stevens economic plan. less health care, less education

aid, crushing property taxes. think of llc as his economic aid. -- economic plan. john stevens knows that it is a revenue source that has been repealed. i love the north country. i go up there a lot. i love the people in the north country. they have affordable housing in the wonderful work ethic. after this discussion i am leaving to meet with the workers at frazier and business people on how the community college is helping to train workers to have the skills necessary to work at the prison with at community

colleges working with small businesses, trying to give them the expertise that they need in order to grow, be successful, create jobs. for years people have said that we need to diversify the economy. i think that in spite of what is going on with frazier, doing my best to find another buyer for frazier, and we will be meeting this afternoon on that, there is a real resilience in the north country. i am convinced that working together we can help the people through what is admittedly a very difficult time. >> two years ago you introduced job tax credits that produced only a handful of jobs and did not stimulate the economy. what went wrong? >> it was introduced right at the time that the economy started falling apart.

it has potential, because we can talk to companies and encourage them to locate here. as i have said, since i talked a lot with business leaders, asking them to come to new hampshire -- we have the opportunity to tell them that when they come here, where there is affordable housing and other amenities, you will be able to locate their. no sales tax, now a state tax, no business taxes for five years. i think it is an attractive economic marketing opportunity to get as most companies do, depending on broadband. >> thank you. turning to the portion of the forum that we call the lightning round, panelists will ask a

series of brief questions that can be answered briefly, such as yes or no. the federal candidates for congress have had a hard time sticking with that. let's show them what new hampshire candidates can do. [laughter] our first question begins with mr. stephens. >> have you support the privatization of public-sector jobs? >> in certain areas, yes. if we can do a better job in the private sector and reduce the size of government, yes. >> we should always look at different models for how we do businesses. the public sector does not have a monopoly in production or deliverance of the services, we need to do what is best for the customer and taxpayer. i do support that in limited areas. >> how are we doing? >> much better so far. [laughter]

>> businesses are the largest single source of revenue to the state. will you support for close the tax increases? >> i do not support increases in taxes. my first approach is to look at spending cuts and greater efficiencies. that is how i will approach the budget in the next biennial. i have already said that i will veto any new taxes. under my leadership i will not let the small business tax increase. the smallest of small businesses in the state, creating jobs. what we have seen in the past under the governor's leadership are the businesses that are hurting and need to have tax cuts. we will be able to do this with

honesty, afterwards moving towards business tax cuts for those businesses. >> as the lack of income and sales tax helped us to weather this recession? >> yes, it has. unemployment is below the national average. we have the second fastest job growth rate in the country. we are the envy of other states. i spoke to business people, i speak with them all the time. i asked them why they are in new hampshire. they clearly embrace our quality of life. we have not talked about the educated work force that is here. >> i do have a question about education, but let's stick to the lightning method. >> i am trying [laughter] >> the unemployment rate,

absolutely, lower than the national average, but we can do better. when there is an increase under the governor for unemployment over 70%, once you start hitting small businesses in the deepest recession of the time, what message does it send to people? i want to be a salesman to say -- come to new hampshire, a great place to do business. >> mr. stevens, do you support the expanded gambling in the state? >> i have said that i will not as a way to balance this budget. once we can balance this budget, we are open to looking at it. looking at the regulations and the environment. it will not be a way to balance the budget like in the past, it is only a recipe to continue to grow government.

>> governor? >> lowering sales and income tax is hard to do when it is already zero. i am concerned about proliferation in what it means for new hampshire over the next 20 years. i have a lot of concerns going forward with it. >> phil? >> the new hampshire minimum wage currently stands at $5.25. would you raise it? by how much? >> i am not a federal congressional candidate and i do not believe that it should be raised by a governor or state, it must be done by a federal delegation. we can look at the pros and cons, but right now we need more than anything is creation of jobs. >> governor lynch? >> i think it is fine right where it is. >> governor lynch, new hampshire's public employee pension system is under-funded,

some of the officers have retired at the age of 45. do you support raising that age? >> i do not. it should remain where it is, particularly for current employees. we need to look at the mall for future employees. i would not touch it as it is now. we have a $7 billion unfunded problem here, looking at that and other areas, nine deals in the past session that address state fiscal issues. we have to make sure to keep our promises, but we must hope to manage your finances. we have to look at the issues in the system and the answers, i believe, are for the people working on this that already have ideas. let's use of what is on the

table. >> so, possibly. >> the gasoline tax stands at 19.6 cents per gallon. is it time to raise that tax? >> no. how did i do, laura? >> very well. [laughter] >> extra credit. >> is there room for another nuclear plant in new hampshire? >> i am not sure. i do support other alternative ways of power at the biomass plant going up, it is a good idea and we need to make sure that we work with those alternative source technologies. but it is not a one-size-fits- all. by would definitely support making sure that we have alternative energy for helping

businesses. the issue is making sure that we reduce energy costs for businesses. >> i support nuclear power. i do not know if it is economically feasible to build another plant. we have been particularly concerned about the credibility of management. i do believe that needs to be a part of the energy portfolio. >> the last questions come from phil. >> do you agree with the attorney general's decision? >> i believe that he makes the call to and i would respect that decision. the attorney general look at a lot more facts that i have a mind is -- my disposal. it is still an ongoing process. there are federal agencies looking into the issues as well. as i think about that i am concerned about what it means for the cost of health care, which i do not think has been looked at as carefully as it needs to be.

at this point putting it on hold is the right decision. >> governor, do you support legislation that would bring paid sick leave for employees? >> no. >> i would not support that right now. >> i support the good job the two did in a lightning round. excellent job keeping a lightning fast. [laughter] shifting gears again, we will switch to the longer form part of the discussion. i will ask the candidates a broad, philosophical question, moderating a conversation between them, the goal being to get them to engage together and see how they think. the first question, are new hampshire public schools good enough? why, why not? >> i think that our public schools are outstanding. if you look at all of the measures that we can look at, not only should we be looking at standardized test scores, but we should be looking at dropout

rates, percentage of children going on to higher education. focusing on the dropout rate, which is an indicator, i have made that a priority. at a time when high dropout rates are of epidemic proportions, we have cut hours in half. now at an astoundingly low 1.7% and it was done by more than simply raising the compulsory aged 18, something the governor's going back to the 1980's tried to get done, as well as alternative programs for those that do not do the best learning in traditional environment. can we improve? yes. we need more opportunities for kids to take programs outside of class and get prayer -- get credit for those programs. running start is a wonderful program that allowed children to take programs at their high school that are good for credit at public colleges, private

colleges and universities all over the country. we are doing a lot and it is a priority for me as governor. >> what you think? >> they're very good. my wife works in one, by the way, and we do a good job quality. can they be improved? one of the areas that we can improve upon is to allow for more alternative aspects. like home schooling. i met a lot of children schooled at home. some of them are doing such a great job. they're standardized testing is absolutely compatible and in some cases better. math and science is so critically important for the future generation as well. the american innovators of the next few years will be looking at people with good math and science skills.

focusing on that, the curriculum could probably be more focused, but i do not like a lot of mandates that impact local governments and i want to make sure that those local governments are able to make their decisions with quality and confidence that they are getting the best value. i would want to make sure that there is a lower reliance on federal and state mandates. >> i would love to ask you both about this, you are running to be governor where education is a very local. governor lynch, mr. stevens, what is your philosophy about how much hand in what way should the state be involved in local school systems? >> the answer to that has to do with how we fund schools. the aid contributed to local schools and communities, my philosophy has been to send more

aid to the communities and children that needed more than others. ultimately, to be the education is about opportunities that we offer to our children for better lives. all of the children in new hampshire deserve an opportunity, regardless of where they lived. as governor we have to ensure that all of our children get that opportunity. children should not be disadvantaged because of where they live. it will be harder for them to get the opportunity later in life and show was a governor involved in shaping school policy. where should they step back? >> the state board's standards must be applied by each school, which is important, to have standards in place and that you

cannot have links to each city to decide the standards, so i think the state has a whole in the broad standards for schools and teachers at each grade. >> so, you are setting broad standards as a state and falling from there? >> with flexibility at the local level. but i do think of those standards need to be set appropriately. >> is that over-involvement? >> i do not believe in a mandate that drives costs for local governments. especially from the federal government. when the federal government department of education comes out with more and more mandates that cost local governments without allowing them to do with the best.

possibly a different approach, my wife is in the system, but i have spoken to many across the state to have said that federal mandates are hurting their ability. >> such as? >> dictating the curriculum and quality where it is already improving. i cannot tell you about the state's particular mandate, i am simply talking philosophically. the board has some great ideas on support for music and other areas. let's try to meet their greatest potential and not be so struck and -- stuck in structured on a core curriculum.

>> there has been much talk about the work force and we did a program recently where college leaders said that average high- school students are not ready for college. what will this look like in 2020, governor l. mott are new fat -- new hampshire schools doing as good a job? >> i think they are already doing a good job. my background is manufacturing and business. i have seen these changes firsthand. you go in today and it is more than manufacturing. workers on the line need to know computers, the sophisticated in technology. we need to integrate that. that will be a big part of it as well.

since we are doing that inside and outside of the classroom, i am a big proponent of robotics, an opportunity for children to get a hands-on way of building these skills. i think that they should get credit for it at the high-school level. i think that teachers should get credit for mentoring these children. we need to be preparing these children to ultimately be leaders in the community as well. we do not want to abandon the focus on traditional liberal arts, but there needs to be more focused on the science, math, technology and engineering. >> doing an ok job, but we can do better? >> we can always do a better job integrating what higher education expects from public schools, ultimately they are the customer. >> final thoughts? >> on this issue, i have a 13-

year-old. as well as a 15-year-old. i agree with everything that was said by the governor. those young children going to school the day, if they want to stay in new hampshire i want them to be here, growing businesses. when you are passing job killing taxes that continue to hurt the ability of businesses to grow, one out of six new hampshire residents are leaving our state to work elsewhere, putting us ahead only of maryland. we need an environment that prides itself on those continued, core values. limited government, less spending. those kids are going to get out of school and we need to focus on math, science, technology of the future. i do not want them to leave, i wanted to grow a job.

we will have an environment in coming aid to education by hundreds of millions of dollars, decimating public education here in new hampshire. he already said on this show that he supports a 10% cut across the board. half of what we spend is aid to public education. .

>> the difference is that john stevens wants to let these offenders out with no supervision, no electronic monitoring -- just let them out into the community. it the victims want scrutiny -- the victims want scrutiny. they want electronic ankle bracelets, gps. that is why i stood with the organization yesterday, and the organization and its the troopers endorse me.

>> again, he is being misleading. >> we will explore this. i do want to let it drop here just because this is a forum on business and the economy. i'm sorry about that. the clock is my master and i'm going to follow it. i will turn to my colleague for a question. this is where the panelists ask a final question and candidates have about 45 seconds to respond. >> in new hampshire is one of the most expensive states when it comes to higher education. both of you have said you would make college affordable, but in an era of enormous budget deficits, how would you do that? >> first, we have to make sure that we make college education affordable. we have a great system in our state. i went through our system. i graduated from the business school and economics. i will work as hard as i can to make sure it is affordable and

that we have access. i have talked about a program that i would like to see where we can help some of the kids in our state do very well in local high school that achieve good grades, based on merit. maybe we can help them with a scholarship toward the university education. and it could be anywhere, king state, phlegm and state. we have a great system. the lack of leadership displayed in the last few years, that is the most important thing facing us right now. >> how can higher education be more affordable? >> first, i want to get back to john stevens saying he is going to get higher agitation by 10%. that is going to drive tuition increases here in new hampshire upwards of 20%. that is unacceptable. at a time when states all over this country are slashing aid for public education, we kept our commitment for public

education and fully funded our commitment to public education. we have a program called a running start, that i talked about earlier, that allows students in high school to take courses for their collegeville -- college degree, making college more affordable. >> ok, mr. lynch, and start to jump in there. tom has the last question for our candidates. if you could keep it brief. >> during the past hour we have heard a lot of disagreement. governor, what ideas did john stevens bring up that you liked? >> i will have to think about it. [laughter] i am really concerned about this 10% across-the-board cut. i just do not think it is sustainable and i think it will decimate education and health care. it will decimate our higher and education system. if he is saying he's going to

cut 10% spending across the board, but he has not offered one place that is going to come from. i'm very concerned about 10% across-the-board cuts. we agree on the importance of public education and i think we agree on the importance of educating our kids and giving them more opportunity to get credit for class's or to work outside of the classroom. i think we have agreed on encouraging students to take more math courses or science or technology and engineering. i think that is important for business and economic development. >> one thing that the governor lynch has done in the last six years that you think is a good idea? >> breen tax breaks for the north country -- bringing it tax breaks for the north country may have been a good idea the time and i think we need to take it further. governor, you were absolutely

right 18 months ago saying that we have too many contractors in this state. but nothing has really been done. we need to consolidate contracts. the fact that the governor is against the might 10% cut across the board is again an example. i will work for state government. we will balance the budget with honesty and no gimmicks. and no new taxes. i will veto any new taxes. any new spending until we get our $800 million deficit under control. that is the leadership i think new hampshire needs. but this has been very interesting and very likely this morning. -- >> this has been very interesting and very likely this morning. i want to thank you both and i want to thank you, our audience. i also want to thank you watching and listening at home and a special, large and thank you to our candidates, republican john stevens and the

governor. thank you. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> the candidates forum on business and the economy has been sponsored in partnership. >> our primetime political coverage will continue tonight with an overview of the midterm elections by correspondence from

hotline, the political news website. and a second debate between wisconsin's democratic senator russ feingold and his republican challenger ron johnson. we will follow that with the north carolina senate debate with republican incumbent and the democratic challenger. that begins at 8 -- at 10:30 p.m. eastern. sarah palin is weighing in on one of the most competitive races in the country. she is endorsing john dorsey for the u.s. senate seat in west virginia. she has said that joe manchin would be a and "rubber stamp" for obama. republican brian cent of all is running well ahead of democrat rory read in the -- brian sandoval is running well ahead of democrat the rory reid.

all this weekend, live coverage from the texas book festival on booktv.or. ingrid betancourt on her six years of captivity in the colombian jungle. throughout the weekend, panels on medical mysteries, capital punishment, and infamous fugitives. get the entire risk schedule at -- at booktv.org. >> middle and high school students, get working on those videos for studentcam, c-span's annual competition. there is $50,000 in prizes. this year's theme, "washington d.c. through my lens." for information on how to upload your video, go to studentcam.org.

>> u.s. and u.k. military officials have started an investigation into the death of a kidnapped british aid worker who may have been killed in error by u.s. special forces. british prime minister david cameron will answer questions about that and a number of issues facing his administration tomorrow morning during the british house of commons. you can see live coverage tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span2. he spoke about the issue yesterday in a 45-minute news conference.   >> good morning, before we start this press conference i would

like to make a statement about the tragic death of british aid worker linda norgrove. there was an effort to rescue her from her kidnappers in northeast afghanistan. the decision to authorize the rescue operation was taken after careful " -- a careful consideration by the foreign secretary and myself. we were clear that linda's life was in grave danger and the operation of offer the best chance of saving her life. linda's death is a tragedy for her family and those who worked alongside her in afghanistan. she was a dedicated professional doing a job she loved in a country she loved. early this morning, general patraeus and isaf forces in afghanistan contacted my office to inform us that in review of the rescue operation new information had come to light a about the circumstances surrounding linda's death. general patraeus has since told

me that review has revealed evidence to indicate that linda may not have died at the hands of her captors, as originally believed. that evidence and subsequent interviews with the personnel involved suggested that linda could have died as a result of a grenade detonated by the task force during the assault. however, this is not certain and a full u.s./u.k. investigation will now be launched. linda's family were informed of this new information this morning and i have spoken to linda's father. my thoughts and the thoughts of the whole country are with them as they come to terms with the death of their daughter and this deeply distressing development. the decision to launch this rescue operation was not an easy one. you must understand i cannot discuss the intelligence that led us to conclude that a rescue

operation was the best way forward, but i am clear that linda -- linda's life was in grave danger from the moment she was taken. those on the ground and in london feared she would be passed of the terrorist chain, which would increase further the already high risk that she would be killed. i am clear that the best chance to save linda's life was to go ahead, recognizing that any operation was fraught with risk for all involved and success could by no means be guaranteed. linda was taken and held in a part of afghanistan under u.s. command. that is why this operation was carried out and -- by u.s. forces. from the moment linda was taken hostage, general patraeus treated her as if she was a u.s. citizen. he and u.s. forces did everything in their power to bring her home safely. and we should remember that linda was being held at a remotely -- remote location-

amounts. this was a -- height in the mountains. this was a difficult operations. we should remember that ultimately come on melinda's death -- the responsibility for linda's debt lies in the hands of those who took her. general patraeus has told me he is deeply dismayed at her death. i want to thank them for their courage. none of us can understand how painful this must be for linda's family. also, is deeply regrettable, particularly for them, that the information published on saturday is highly likely to have been incorrect. the statements were made in good faith and on information on the -- on the basis of information that we received. i want to assure mr. and mrs. norgrove that i will do everything i can to establish the full facts and give them certainty about how their daughter died. the foreign secretary will be making a full statement to the house of commons this afternoon.

my apologies for the delay in starting this press conference. i'm sure you can understand why. i will be happy to take questions.  >> as you just said, the news conference was delayed by up to an hour. have you been talking to linda's family for the past hour and did you speak to them before taking the decision to authorize the hostage rescue mission? and has any evidence emerged that her captors were wearing suicide bus, were capable of carrying out a suicide mission? which is the information given initially to explain how she died. >> i was contacted this morning by general patraeus. i received this information relatively early this morning. i have phone calls with general patraeus this morning and also,

with linda's father this morning. and obviously, this press conference was scheduled for 11:00. i wanted to be sure that i have complete information before saying anything to the press here in london. obviously, it is difficult to answer the whole series of questions about unbelievably tragic, but also complicated chain of events. the last thing i wanted to do was to put out information that was incorrect. in terms of the specific questions that you ask, clearly, as soon as linda was taken hostage, there were meetings here in london, 12 in all, where all of the advice and best information that we had was looked at. the family were kept in touch during this time with the decision making and when the decision was recommended and when i explained my statement

and authorize the foreign secretary to go ahead. in terms of the specifics about the operation, i think he will have to await the investigation -- you will have to await the investigation. i think we will have to wait for the investigation before much more can be put forward. in the end, there will be many detailed and complicated questions. there is no certainty. you can never be certain that going ahead with a of -- an operation like this will lead to the successful release of a hostage. likewise, you can never be certain that someone who has been taken hostage will be killed or their life endangered if you do not authorize that rescue. it is a balance. you look at the advice. you look at the intelligence. the way out everything and you ask a question after question,

-- u. way out everything and u.s. question after question, but in the end, a decision has made. i weighed this a hundred times about whether this was the proper situation -- the proper decision, but in the end, i believe it was. >> how did it come to be that a live grenade appears to have been debated in the vicinity of a hostage? -- detonated in the vicinity of a hostage. do you believe that there was some negligence on the part of the americans and do you think there will be any public anger at the americans over this? >> i think there will have to be a full investigation and general patraeus is starting this investigation. it will obviously be a joint investigation between the u.s. and u.k..

we have relatively sketchy information, but it is information sufficient to overturn what was previously announced. i think we must now wait for this investigation to get to the bottom of what happened, but i have spoken to general patraeus about the need for that investigation to be thrown, to be joined in some form so that we can fully understand what happened. i think we will have to wait for that. everyone will want to know how this could happen. >> could you just give us an idea of the nature of the conversation with general patraeus on the phone? did he apologize for what now seems to have happened? >> i spoke to him over the weekend and i spoke to him again this morning. obviously, he deeply regrets what has happened. he believes, as i believe, it was the right decision to try to rescue linda from the precarious situation she was in. and u.s. forces have the best

reputation in this regard. it was the practice to use the forces that are in command in the area because they know the terrain. but obviously, he deeply regrets what has happened, as to why, and we must get to the bottom of what happened. -- as do i, and we must get to the bottom of what happened. >> can i ask about university funding? do you expect that the liberal democrats are going to have to compromise on this more than in your party? >> i think everybody has to compromise. the truth is, we all want the same thing. this goes right across party. we want well funded universities that can compete with the best in the world. we want to make sure that we can go on expanding higher education and people from low- income homes can go to the best universities in the land.

we also have a massive fifth -- fiscal crisis where we have to rein in our spending and make universities affordable. and we also want to see universities that are strong and independent and can develop themselves with their expertise. it is quite clear that the states themselves cannot deliver them. so, we need reform. john brown will be delivering his report tomorrow and we can all respond to that report. but i think on all sides, those who want well funded universities and bright children who want to go to those universities, what we need is changed and what the coalition is determined to bring about this change. we need some well-informed decisions by everyone involved. but i am heartened by the fact that we all want to achieve good universities, social mobility, and fairness in the system. i think that is exactly what we will do.

>> i know laura brown is going to come out with his report tomorrow, but i -- lord brown is going to come out with his report tomorrow, but [unintelligible] should be going to universities. you know the previous government had a target of 50%. secondly, do you believe that there should be some kind of progressive instrument whereby better off graduate and up paying more toward their education than, in fact, what it might actually have cost? >> i think what we need to do is have a system where young people can make choices about what is right for them. i want as many people who think is right for them to go to university to be able to go to university.

if we stay where we are, i think there is a danger that if you look at participation from low- income households, you will be accepting a rather low level of participation. over time you'll be able to see university access expanded. any system has got to be able to achieve that. and i know lord brown is looking at this. and our responsibility is to make sure that we expand. if you look at our children today who make it to university, is extremely disappointing. we have to do a lot better. your next question had to do with the progress of element. yes, i believe it is important that we demonstrate that this is a progressive approach. but we have looked at a pure graduate tax and when i say it is very good for our

universities, it is very good for american universities. i think it would be extremely unfair in terms of european students who come to study and would not be charged a graduate tax when they go back to their own country. i think a graduate tax, pure and simple, does not work. the options at all and could not make a graduate tax wilwork. it does not bring in extra money and does not start to even break even properly until about 2014. it is full of problems. -- 2040. it is full of problems. i think all of us can get behind a board brown's report. everyone can come together and say, we want the same thing here.

we want a system that can take on the world and is affordable in our own country. that is the prize and i think there will be people across the political spectrum who can get together to support that. andy porter? >> you talk about the universities competing with the best in the world, but with oxford and the other universities still having to compete with the yale and harvard, are they charging the same fees? >> i think we will have to wait to see the detail of the brown report. clearly, a sustainable and good system has got to be one where students make choices and universities have greater independence from the government and where there is a flow of funding into higher education that means we have well-paid tutors and well- stocked libraries and well funded laboratories and the rest of it. that is the key. any system has got to meet those

guidelines. when you look across the system, do we have some world's leading universities? absolutely, we do. when you stick with the status quo, it is unaffordable and also on rewarding for the universities. that is what the coalition is trying to sort. it is not just saying, let off for the easy like and stick with what we have got. let's go with bold reforms that may involve some difficult choices, but actually will make the university sector more affordable and more able to take on the world of the same time. -- at the same time. >> how important is it to bring them along with you -- bring the dams along with you? -- dems along with you? and to the matter last week, you

brought -- you apologized to breaking your pledged promise at election of the child benefits. what is the status of the other promises that you made during the election? should we write those off now? >> first of all, on the liberal democrats, we want to bring everybody together behind a sensible reform of student university finance. that safeguards at the students live and all the things that i said. with the coalition, i think this has been another example along with welfare reform, and i believe with defense as well, it is another example of the difficult decisions being made and people are working together extremely hard to do the right thing in the best interest for the country. it is extremely difficult for both parties. and of course, it is difficult for the level -- liberal

democrats. but they want to essentially reform the sector in a way that is progressive and that they can explain to their supporters and they're working hard to achieve that. in terms of working for child benefits and pledges, what i said at the election, politically about the pension that the net -- the benefits that pensioners receive our promises that i want to keep. -- that pensioners receive, are promises that i want to keep. >> you said very specifically that labor was lying when it said that pensioners, but taxes and others would be cut. you said, "we will keep what we inherit." can you be very clear and repeat the promise for us today in terms? >> what i said was true. liverwort telling lies. they were very specifically --

labour were telling lies. they were very specifically saying [unintelligible] and that is just not the case. those are promises that i made and promises i want to keep. john? >> prime minister, do you think that with the start of the u.s. government had of trying to get 50 students into university, that it did [unintelligible] >> i think there is a problem, which is, if you have a target for higher participation and you do not make the resources available either through government or the available fees, then you start with the university sector that becomes very stretched. i want my graduates to graduate thinking that my uterus is going to stand against the americans, french, -- my university is going to stand against the

americans, french, germans and others. i think that is key. one of the strengths of a fee- based system is that students are making a choice about what is important to them. i think sometimes you can get a slightly sneeringly commentary in the approach. i think we have a fleet of those courses because we have a demand for them into -- in society. i think the fee-based should get over the mickey mouse society. we have a mass of expertise in music in this country. we have a great competitive advantage, but we need more graduates. something that might be dismissed as a mickey mouse degree is actually something that is vital for our

succeeding. let's look at the students instead of the some of the judgments that commentators make. >> i just wonder if you can clarify your remarks at a conference last week about the managed tax allowance. you seemed to interject that it could mitigate the loss that people will feel, but then you said it would not be available to hire a great tax payers. -- hire rate taxpayers. >> the statement i made last week refers to a recognition of marriage 3 transferrable allowance. -- through a transferable allowance. i think we supported this idea and is something that we want to achieve. another thing within the

coalition agreement, we recognize that not always do all the parties agreed. for instance, on that issue or on the issue of tuition fees or the things that are written in we can have a slightly open disagreement. in terms of tuition fees, the work is being done by vince cable and david willett and others. it is so good that i hope we will all be able to sign up together to a bold and radical view of university finance. that is the strength of putting all that brainpower together. right of the day. -- bay. >> with a week to go with the finding of the security review, i'm wondering what assurance he would like to give to people in the military city like plymouth

who are ultimately put in their lives on the line in afghanistan, and also, employed in the defense industry. would you say to them? >> first, a huge parade to the people in plymouth. -- huge praise to the people in plymouth. the first priority of the government is that defense of the realm, a strong defense. i want people to know that in this defense review, first, that is absolute the case. second, we will do everything we need -- in terms of afghanistan, we will do everything necessary to give them what they need to succeed in afghanistan. and the people who want the detail of the future, they will have to wait for the announcement of the defense review. but it has been done, i think, in a correct way. we are looking at a national framework. it is not just the u.s. ministry

of defence and the treasury fighting it out. -- it is not just the ministry of defense and treasury fighting it out. we are looking at difficult decisions, but the right decisions for the future of our country. newcastle on the right. >> returning to linda norgrove, prime minister, you spoke to john norgrove today -- and condolences to him -- can you tell us about that conversation and what kind of assurance you were able to give? >> it was a very private conversation and i do not want to go into details. all i wanta say is that as far as the potentially wrong information that was made public, i want to make sure from now on that the information

received, that we explain everything we can to the family and try to give them as much of what we can avoid happened and how their daughter died and -- as much as we can about what happened and how their daughter died. and after that, i want to make clear what we can do. >> you made it clear you want to reduce the structural deficit during the lifetime of this parliament, but on the timing question, you are not tied down. >> obviously, we're going to make complicated process of trying to get all the budget into shape so that we can deliver what charles announced in his budget statement. it is not sufficient to half the deficit in four years.

the also believe -- i also believe that the british economy is making good progress. the forecasts are positive. but course, there are risks. what will happen to the american recovery? how strong is the recovery in europe? how well as the bank lending going? those are all moving parts. and we have to keep it " -- a close eye on them. i have actually believed that military policy is a better lover in terms of trying to make sure that the economy is -- is a better lever in terms of trying to mention that the economy is growing. i think that is where we should be focused. >> i would like to go back to the hostage rescue, if i may.

did you at any point consider use in a british special forces? if not, why not? and isn't it right to say that british special forces have -- in their tactical approach -- far less aggression than the americans? >> of course, i asked a number of questions throughout the many days that linda was a hostage. the right approach on these occasions -- you have to look at afghanistan and they are in a part of -- and there are parts of the country where british forces are in control and part of the country where the americans are in control. it was right to allow the americans to go ahead and attend the rescue. it was a part of the country that they control and the ground that they know. and in the end, you have to listen very closely to the advice you are given by commanders on the ground, general patraeus and others.

i want to praise that team for the bravery that they showed. obviously, we have to do an investigation to find out exactly what happened and where the mistakes were made. yes, we need to do that, but i think it would have been quite unorthodox to overrule and insist on a particular set of forces to carry out an operation against the advice of extremely talented and professional commanders on the ground. >> just a couple of points of clarification. you said that family was kept in touch during the decision making process. did you speak to her parents before the rescue was agreed? and in fairness, for all of the guiding principles that you have put forward, many members of the public felt that the child benefit changes where the neighbor felt that they lost

their child benefit while their neighbors got to keep it, many people felt that would not be fair. what is your definition of fairness? >> on the first question, this morning was the first time that i had spoken to the norgrove parents. what happens on these very difficult, very distressing occasions -- as i said to minnick, regular meetings of cobra. i think cobra met 12 times. with all those expertise sitting around the table. i was updated, i think, twice daily on the discussions and on the advice and intelligence we were receiving. the formal decision is one to be made by the foreign secretary on the advice of all those officials and i gave my blessing, my full backing to the

decision that the foreign secretary made. he will detail a time line in his statement this afternoon. as i said, the family, there was contact with the family. obviously, after linda was taken hostage and on going through that time. in the end, the decision had to be made in the way i suggested. and again, there is no certainty with these decisions. and you have two very difficult options, to act with the knowledge that he might release the hostage, but equally, you will notelm -- it might no be possible. the alternative was to delay and at all times we were told that linda was in danger of being killed and that danger was getting worse as she could be passed of the terrorist chain of

command and possibly end up in fought cut in half -- pakistan. you have to make a decision. i think it was the right decision based on the advice we were given. i am deeply is stressed that it did not work out in the way that we all wanted it to. but you have to make decisions and this was, i think, the right one. fairness, i tried to define fairness in my conference speech. helping the poor in our society, that is fair. we also have to ask the question about what is fair to ask people to pay, especially those were struggling to give a good life to their family. the third question of fairness is to ask a question about deserves. what do people deserve in terms of fairness? you asked about benefits, of course, there are universal and

violence. but i do think that it is important, -- about universal entitlements. but i do think it is important that it is unfair that we take the money of hard-working people to subsidize those who do not work. that is unfair. it seems to me is three elements, helping those who are not well off, making sure it is preserving necessities, and that is helping the right people. the third question, is it right to go on paying the child benefits to top rate tax payers? someone earning 43,000 pounds, i'm not saying they are rich, but they are better off than many others. with all the difficulties that we face and with the appalling

inheritance that we have, it is not fair. the next question, the people who will earn 40,000 pounds who still get the benefit, do you want to increase the income scale to 60 to 80,000? that has been an option discussed in the past? i do not think it would be right, and it would add complexity and cost to the intrusion. >> on the issue of fairness, derecognize criticisms from lord tavis on the decision to implement the child benefits? and what do you think about the fact that you are left wing of the public when it comes to

cuts? >> i was having some trouble trying to work out whether by and double -- whether he was accusing me of being too right wing or two left wing. worked out will be before long. this is something that we have discussed out -- discussed for many months. there are choices. the welfare bill has grown to be like 45% in the last decade. it is simply incredible to deal with a deficit unless you try to deal with welfare. and when you do deal with welfare, in my view, you have to look both at the benefits that people get to make sure that your changes are progressive. and you also have to look at the problem of dependency. we now spend more on housing benefit that we do on the universities and police combined. it is heading north of 20 billion pounds.

it seems we have to do both of those things. we have been trying to do both of those things. i do not expect the changes that we have will make a universal acclaim. but if you want to deal with the deficit you have to deal with health care. i think this government has been quite a collective in the the chancellor, the chief secretary -- chief secretary, the prime minister. we have been discussing what benefit changes we can make and what is a sensible approach. and i left out the deputy prime minister who has been around a table as well. we have been sitting in on the table trying to work out a benefit reform approach that will help the poorest in our country, but also save money at the same time. but i think we are making progress on that.

>> can i just check whether you are being fair to duncan smith? you have got your ieb benefit and your child benefit cuts and freeze and you have your housing benefit cuts. i just wonder if there is any more that you will be demanding of him between now and october 20? and what is he getting in return? >> i think he is being a radical and necessary and bold welfare secretary of state. it is impossible to deal with the deficit without dealing with the welfare. i think it has been extremely creative in politics about how we move to a system without always working. i think it will solve the policy -- the poverty trap. it used to be a poverty trap that affected people out of

work. then it became a poverty trap that affected people in low-paid work and it can now affect both. but it is an enormous price that has diluted governments for years. he is being extremely radical there, but also, yes, in looking at those benefits that go to benefit -- they go to better off families, we have to look at those. we have to do this if we want to be sure that we properly fund our schools and hospitals. maybe we should block off a certain amount of each budget. i just think that would be completely wrong. as we deal with this appalling inheritance and deal with this deficit, we need to do it and to deal with it in a way that makes sure that we go on in investing with health care and schools and universities. i have said ad nauseam that if

you do not deal with pay and pensions and welfare, you cannot possibly deal with the deficit in a way that makes sense for the modern country. we have a pay freeze that has been announced. we have a very good report on pensions. and we see very good work on welfare. all these things, in my view, are necessary. >> if bridgton was to seen -- if britain was to see its gdp increased again, what would you do? would you go on with the spending cuts or would you decrease them? >> i think there is a difference between britain and ireland. first, there is an issue with the u.k. economy that shows

growth this year and next year. i have to rely on the independent forecasters out there and almost all of them in the cake is a choppy situation, but good growth going forward. -- almost all of them indicate it is a choppy situation, but good growth going forward. the problem of being in the hero is that you are not able to have a monetary policy -- in the is that you are not able to have a monetary policy. we have been able to stay out of the euro and we have been able to tailor a banking industry that suits our needs. i have always said that as long as i'm prime minister, we will not joined the bureau. -- the euro. >> the european commission is

handing out some quite specific amendments on financial activity tax. are you still looking for a global arrangement? or might you be prepared to a european-wide regulated system? >> on the issue of a banking levy, we decided to go ahead of the international agreement. we thought it was right and should be done and there should be some leadership shown. on the financial transactions tax, i've always felt there was a greater risk of countries, or even small groups of countries doing this because transactions can move very rapidly offshore. i think the question it will bring is if this is looked at in a way that will not have that effect. it is something that was said in the conclusions of last year's european council, something to be looked at. but there is a grave danger in

transaction tax because you can move it rather easily. that is the risk. let's take two more. the gentleman here and then won over to the back. >> bloomberg news. a couple of things, given the liberal democrats and the one of four election argued strongly against reenacting the budget, is that causing tensions between your liberal ministers and making it more difficult to find cuts? and secondly, somebody said this morning about the child benefit. there was a mistake in the brief when it was announced, which is the threshold for it will be 44,000. but in changes for the emergency budget, the actual top rate goes down closer to 42,000. do you think that suggests people knew why it was pushed through in a bid by russia? >> -- in a bit of a rush?

>> in all of these discussions there were a liberal democrat policies they were looking to achieve and others as well. and we negotiated that. and i think we made a very good document that withstands the test of time. we have had very difficult decisions to make on welfare, higher education, education. it is a very difficult thing we are trying to do. but i have been heartened by the s coming to a very positive frame of mind and coming together and trying to work together. it is a bit early, but the signs are good that conservatives and liberal democrats are coming together in a coalition and instead of trying to do the that they an easy thing, they are trying to do the difficult thing -- the debate and the easy

thing, they are trying to do the difficult thing. to say that someone between 40,000 pounds and 43,000 pounds is rich, that is not the point. that is not the point i'm making. i think when you are trying to attack the deficit and trying to reform welfare, it is right to ask the question, is it the right to go on paying child -- child benefit to those families? these are not easy decisions. and obviously, people who are receiving these moneys, it will have an impact on their budgets. but we have to make choices and we cannot simply take all of the welfare changes between one part of a part of the spectrum. it seems right to ask relatively well-off families to bear some of this burden. you tempted me.

>> will going green save the state as much as -- will garrett corrine save the state as much money as they have a scene in recent years? >> that is a very good question. i have seen the report and it goes into how much money we have wasted over the last decade when we have been increasing public spending, and yet, making crazy decisions about property cannot i.t., shared services. -- about property and about i.t. and shared services. it made for pretty chilly reading, but i'm afraid of the last government, the sluice gates open, the money was spent, and there were no questions about how weak save money and find efficiencies. and philip reed, who does have the advantage of running several businesses in the u.k., has given us several pointers about how to avoid a loss of money in

the future. some of the properties will turn your head. i think it is a good report and it will save us money. can i thank you all for coming and can i apologize once again for the late start to the press conference? thank you. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> u.s. and u.k. officials hester investigation into at a youth -- a u.k. -- into a british aid worker that may have been killed by u.s. forces during her rescue. the supreme court is in session today. -- nation's highest court in is inside the hearing about a woman who was sentenced to six years in prison for trying to harm her husband's mistress with a deadly chemical.

oregon school officials and police officers interviewed two potential victims at school. today, the court is hearing oral argument about whether vaccine makers can be sued by parents who believe their children were harmed by the vaccines. here is more on the case.

>> and we will try to get to that a little bit later. some political news right now from abc's the note. sarah palin is waiting -- is weighing in on one of the most competitive races in the country. she is endorsing john racy for the u.s. senate seat in west virginia. she said of joe manchin that he would be "in rubberstamp" from obama. and political wire and kbtn in sandovalshow's bryant who is running against harare reid -- running against rory

reid in the senate race there may have hired an undocumented housekeeper several years ago. rory reid is the son of harry reid. and now we will go live to a press conference. this is live coverage from the national press club. we expect this to get underway in just a moment.

>> we are standing by for an event with chief of staff general shortnorton schwartz. the obama administration is lifting the six-month moratorium on deepwater oil drilling after the bp