medicare -- you are the only person i know who has bragged about cutting $6 billion for medicare. stand up on your record. if this is what you believe, you ought to talk about it. i'm different. i believe we need to stand up for our seniors. i will not vote to privatize social security. i will stand up every day for medicare. as secretary of state, i had stood up for seniors. we have one of the toughest investor-protection laws and the countries when it comes to protecting seniors. i've done all i can for seniors to have a disability is -- seniors who have disabilities. i will be on their side when it comes to protecting things that we owe your generation. >> 60 seconds for your rebuttal. >> she sounds just like her ads -- a phony and misleading. i have never said i was not for medicare or for protecting medicare. >> you said it should not be

created in the first place. >> you do not have me on tape saying that. i have never said that. >> let the congressman finish. >> we could look at more choices for people in medicare, more access to a private system. we ought to be learned how to be more innovative with medicare and other programs. the idea that you can say you have repeatedly been for this or that and you think people believe that -- people do not believe what you're saying because it is not true. and he ripped up let the congressman finish. >> in terms of social security -- >> let the congressman finished. >> in terms of an social security, i said, if you want to start talking about this, we will watch carefully. we will let you lead the fight. i'm not sure the system will work. it would not have worked as well as we would have hoped. i never supported it. >> that is your time. you are watching republican roy

blunt and democrat ron carnahan here at the united states senate race in missouri. we go back to kansas city's abc affiliate. >> let's shift of focus. there are reports that the united states and nato are permitting senior taliban officials to travel to kabul, afghanistan, to participate in preliminary peace talks with the government. is it appropriate that the afghan government negotiate with the taliban who gave the al- qaeda courses safe haven to launch the 9/11 attacks? is it prepared to negotiate with -- is it appropriate to negotiate with the taliban? >> i do not think the united states government should be negotiating with the taliban. they are a violent terrorist group that is destabilizing that part of the world. we should not be part of that. i'm glad that, instead of being

focused on iraq, we're in afghanistan, where we should be. that is where the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 work trained. it is appropriate that we use all means to try to work on this. >> mr. lents. >> i'm on the house intelligence committee. i have been to afghanistan -- mr. blunt. >> i am on the house intelligence committee. i have been to afghanistan. it is one of the most dangerous places in the world. trying to resolve this problem in a similar way to what happened in iraq -- you reach out to the fighting factions and bring them together. i have no problem with talking. i have no problem trying to find a way to reconciliation. i do have a problem really did the value of the dangers we face in the world today -- denying the dangers we face in the world today. i'm concerned that the

administration is in denial. christmas day, just a few months ago. this guy was on the airplane with explosives in his clothes. his strength to detonate explosives. six passengers jumped on him and stop him. next sunday, on one of the shows, the secretary of commons during janet napolitano says the system worked. -- the secretary says that the system worked. clearly, the system did not work. we lived in a dangerous world. robert gibbs, that same sunday, at the same quote. sometimes i wonder how dumb the administration thinks the american people are. there are real dangers. afghanistan and pakistan are two of those places. and generally supportive of what the government is trying to do there. i think the government made a mistake in giving a deadline for withdrawal. this region -- if others are

going to be there when you leave, you cannot give that deadline. even on jay leno, yesterday, the president announces a 18-day plan for withdrawal. the taliban and announced a 19- month plan. the principal responsibility is to defend the country. >> 60 seconds for your bottle. >> i agree that we should not have a town and for withdrawal. that -- we should not have a timeline for withdrawal. we should not have an open-ended commitment in a afghanistan -- in afghanistan. you brought up homeland security. it was disappointed that you tried to slip something into a homeland security build right after 9/11 to benefit the tobacco company, philip morris. that is wrong. even your colleagues called you out on that and said it was wrong and took it on of the bill.

it is the kind of activity in washington that people are sick of. we're never going to change things. we will never get our economy back on track until folks like you are held accountable as well, congressman, for your behavior in washington. i would like to address that pierre >> we will move onto another questions -- i would like you to address that tonight. >> we will move on to another question. >> the wall street bailout bill known as t.a.r.p. has been an economic success. economists from both parties have said that the bill stemmed of depression. but cbo says that the cost to taxpayers will not be $600 billion but $66 billion. congressman blunt, you voted for t.a.r.p. secretary of state carnahan, you have criticized it. have either of you revise your opinions? >> i have not. i hope we never have to do that

again. if we do, and hope people from both parties are able to come together and do hard things. i helped negotiate the final t.a.r.p. bill. i was in the minority. i was not in control. the things we got out and in that made a difference. the two works things -- worst things about this injection into the economy -- a virtual forced investment into credit-giving institutions -- the biggest problem is that it was widely reported that we were giving money to people. if you are investing in the economy in the way that task to be paid back and has largely been paid back in 18 months, that is not a gift to anybody. the government has made money on the recovery so far. there may be a loss, but i do not know. if there is any loss at the end of five years, the people who participated in t.a.r.p. -- the

president has to propose a plan to recover any loss from those people. the second-worst thing is that the obama administration was able to use that number -- the total amount spent was about $450 billion, instead of 7 per billion dollars. -- $700 billion. well i was not for giving them the second half, they never needed most of the. president obama should have asked for $100 billion, not 300 fill it -- $350 billion bid plan worked. hopefully we will never get into that situation again. i will see that we don't. secretary carnahan was in santa fe, new mexico, and was asked what she thought about it. she said, absolutely. in missouri, and the reporter is not paying attention, she said, of course we needed to do something like t.a.r.p. talk about talking different. it needed to happen.

it did happen. >> your time is up. >> congressman blunt and i see this completely differently. he said the negotiated -- that he negotiated the bill and it made a real difference. i'll say. wall street has had the heftiest, biggest balance sheets they have ever seen and paid the biggest bonuses. it made a big difference for wall street. it was supposed to stabilize our economy. make it so the rest of the small businesses could survive the economic downturn. it was not of their own causing. it was also supposed to stop the mortgage crisis. it has not done that either. our state has seen the worst foreclosure rates amid the whole history in the month of august. you let the banks run wild. you deregulated. you were there when they were out of control. you were there to bail them out with $700 billion of our money. you were there when it was time

to hold them accountable so we would not have to do that again in you voted on the side of wall street. i think that is wrong. i know they have given you $1.5 million and you campaign and hobnob with them all the time. i was here in missouri, standing up to those financial institutions. they said, we cannot possibly take people back. it would crush the economy. we got them to pay back $10 million to consumers. it was not something they would do on their own. i stood up on the side of missourians. the bailout and incentives were all wrong. you still have a situation where we have four bank's controlling 40% of the deposits in our country. too big to fail still exists. it was an folks like you to washington, they will keep -- if we send folks like you back to washington, they will keep getting bailed out. folks like you have let them get by with this. it is a shame. you should not be calling it one

of your proudest moments. >> one minute for your rebuttal. >> when she says -- when she is at a bankers' house in santa fe, new mexico, she has a different position. on the financial overregulation bill, there is no main street banker that things it is to their advantage. everybody on wall street said it was fine to them. money will cost more for small businesses and people trying to purchase homes. it will be more expensive. it was the wrong thing to do. it regulated too much and did nothing with the government agencies that created the problem. i voted for legislation and reform on fannie and freddie. we send it to the senate. the senate did nothing. that is one reason i want to go to the senate. i'm tired of sending to this -- i am tired of sending to the senate stuff that never gets done. if you look better record of what was sent to the senate was

in the majority, it is a different record and what the federal government did pierre >> and new question on the -- on what the federal government did -- it is a different record than what the federal government did. >> and another question. >> lobbyists have way too much influence in washington. the deck is stacked against us and for the special interests and lobbyists. congressman blunt is the top recipient of lobbyist campaign contributions in all the members of the house. and that is wrong. the sad part, to me, is that congressman, you used to have a different view. you ran for governor in 1992. he said then that you thought there should be a ban on lobbyists' campaign contributions. you thought there should be a limit on pac contributions. thought we should have strict enforcement of campaign finance

law. that is why it is so sad to see that, after 14 years in washington, you have done a complete reversal. you think it is ok to be the top recipient of lobbyists campaign contributions out of all the congress people. i do not think that is a record of promotion. what i would do is a couple of things. first, we need to stop this revolving door between washington, capitol hill, and case street. we need to have a band -- lifetime ban on members ever becoming lobbyists. i would like to see if you will take that pledge tonight. i will take it. members of the congressional staff should have a cooling off before they can go be lobbyists. we saw something the other day that said a member of a congressional staff could get paid $750,000 to become a lobbyist. i think that is crazy. it is no wonder the deck is stacked against us. if you have special interest influence in the legislation and buying their influence, we see the attack ads on television

these last couple of weeks paid for by these anonymous, big- money sources that are friends of congressman blunt. he might -- it might be because he is carried water for them year after year in washington. mib because i am their worst enemy. they know they can never by me. i will look out for missourians every day in washington. >> once again, secretary carnahan says things that she knows are not true. i was the only member of the house running for senate for a brief time and i was on that list raising more money than other people who happened to be lobbyists. i'm not at the top of the list now and she knows that. she knows the three people at the top of the list. she has gotten $10,000 from each of them. everything is different. starting in april of last year, the league of conservation voters -- an extremist group -- ran $1 million attacking me for being opposed to cap and trade.

of course i am opposed to it. i am on the side of missourians. it is a terrible thing for our country. they hired some actor. a person had oil all over him. there is no mention of cap and trade. it is about clean energy. to have more american energy -- which i am for and you can see that in our jobs plan -- you do not have to penalize the energy infrastructure that we have. frankly, she knows better pitching knows that is not the case. at that it was cheap -- and that it was interesting she mentioned right after 9/11 when we were writing the homeland security bill. it was a different environment than we had ever been in before. there were a lot of things to try to put that bill together. what happened on that provision? someone told me that senator kohl has a bill that relates to something that just happened in st. louis, missouri, hezbollah trafficking in the stamps that

you put on products. he said he would like to see that in the report. i said, check it out with the committee -- the judiciary committee. it might have taken five minutes in an evening where there were dozens of things as we tried to put homeland security together in an environment a year after the commerce occurred with 9/11. -- after the congress that occurred with 9/11. >> your chance for a bottle -- for your rebuttal. >> harry truman says, if you cannot convince them, confuse them. you have totally confused me. the topic is lobbyists and their influence in washington. you're the top recipient of all congressmen. you are. affect you have money from the three senators -- >> you have money from the three senators -- >> that really is not an

explanation, congressman, of why lobbyists like you so much. i think it is because you carry water for them and do not take care of us. when the lobbyist wants something, you take care of them. mark twain had a word for that -- he said it was the best government money could buy. congressman, i think that is you. >> we have a chance for another question. we'll ask your graciousness to truncate our times for responses to just 90 seconds. we have a pithy, insightful final question. >> do you believe global warming is real? give me a yes or no. if so, what needs to be done? >> i think climate change is real. iso not know how much of thit been instigated by people. in this cap and trade discussion -- i am for more smaller, more wind, more nuclear, more biofuels -- i have a record of

this. i have fought lots of people, including the traditional providers of energy, to make that happen. the idea of attacking co2 let the league of conservation voters who have not addressed -- endorsed a single person who is not for cap and trade. the usa is not a planet. we cannot solve the co2 problem by ourselves. we can make it worse ourselves. how? we make it worse by ourselves by doubling our utility bills. our utility bills would go up 80% in the first 10 years according to a study -- we're the only state to has had the study based on cap and trade. -- who has had the study based on cap and trade. we would lose jobs. we would send jobs to countries that care less about what comes out of the smokestack.

this thought-out plan would cost jobs and if the problem you're trying to solve worse, not better. >> 90 seconds, ms. carnahan. >> i think climate change as real as well. dealing with their energy future is the biggest challenge of our generation. we have to get off our addiction to foreign oil. it is costing us dearly. it is a threat to our national security. we spend $1.2 billion every day sending money to regimes that do not like us. congressman blunt's policies have only encourage that. we have become more dependent of he has been in congress. we have been gouged at the gas pump. it has to stop. we know the future is about clean energy that we control, not foreign oil dictators. i am for stopping the tax subsidies to big oil companies. they do not need our money. they made $500 billion in profit in the last five years. we're still subsidizing them? you are for that?

you have taken a lot of money from them. i think that is wrong. a lot subsidize oil companies. we need to encourage homegrown -- i will not subsidize oil companies. we need to encourage home grown energy. we need to make ourselves more secure because we are energy independent. >> 60 seconds for your rebuttal. >> the steps we have taken so far have sent jobs to china -- you have taken so far have sent jobs to china and india. i'm not for penalizing the current economy to grow a new economy. i believe that, in an economy that grows even by reasonable rate, our energy needs are want to double in the decade of the 2030's. there is plenty of room to do the things i want to do. it is part of our jobs plan. it is over 100 pages. secretary carnahan's jobs plan is under 500 words. you could tweet her plan in four

tweets. i have fought for this i will continue -- for this. i will continue to fight. someone told me a few months ago -- and it's -- and missourians know what this has done to their utility bills. if my retired mothers utility bill doubles, that is worse. utility billsss's double, the jobs go away. >> our time is up. you have to be minutes to make your final case to voters -- two minutes to make your final case to voters. >> i'm glad to go first. county ofout in every missouri for the last 18 months. 800 evens, talking to missourians about their government and how we can make it -- 800 even spaits, talking o

missourians about their government and how can make it better. there is the no-vote. 32 democrats voted with of the republicans against this bill fought out health care plan. over 40 democrats voted against captain trade -- cap and trade. it happens over and over again. the current washington agenda is too extreme for even the democrats in washington. it is too extreme for the democrats and way too extreme for democrats in missouri. the democrats will see a church, school, soccer games who have always been on one side might not be on that side anymore. they want to send a message, just like every missouri and wants to send a message. this is not who we want to be. we want to live in a country where people are bigger than government, not a country where government is bigger than people. as ronald reagan said, even our great country -- even where a

guy who is the first person to graduate from college can run for the united states senate -- even in that country, freedom is not passed along in the bloodstream. every generation of americans has to secure freedom for itself. i think 2010 is the time when we decide, are we going to renew the lease on freedom for another generation or we going to just be like everybody else? it is clear to me that the current people in control in washington want us to be like everybody else. i want us to be citizens of the united states of america, a country with greater opportunity, greater aspirations, greater goals than any country in history of the world. >> making her final case, the democratic candidate robin carnahan. >> thank you to all of you for watching. a long time ago, harry truman said that washington is the kind of place where it is easy to forget where you came from and why you ever went there in the

first place. sadly, that is what has happened to congressman blunt. he has a record of bailing out wall street, taking care of the special interest, raising the deficit, and sticking us with the bill. i do not think that is something that deserves a promotion. most people in missouri would agree. it is time to fix what is broken in washington. it will not happen if we keep sending the same old people out there to do the same thing. my priorities are different. we need to stand up for small businesses. we need to give them incentives. we need to have tax breaks for the middle class. not for the big oil companies and certainly not for those that are shipping our jobs overseas. finally, we need to hold government accountable for how it spends our money. we should ban earmarked spending once and for all. go to my website grabencarnahan.com -- robincarnahan.com.

in the end, i think this election is a choice between having a senator who looks out for missouri's interest or who will look out for washington post special interests. -- washington's special interests. i am rahman carnahan. i will never forget where i came from. -- i am robin carnahan. and never forget where i came from. >> they are asking you to send them to the senate to fill the seat.ng senator bond's there are too good other candidates on the ballot. check out the campaigns of libertarian john f. dinea nd -- of jonathan dine and conservative jerry beck. thank you for spending part of your evening with us. good night.

>> is broadcast was made possible in part by aarp of missouri. >> my name is jim clemens, president of aarp missouri, increasing all citizens to get out and vote because it is your right, your decision, you're bot -- your vote. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> here is some political news from around the country. the local wire is reporting that a former senator appears to

be the leading his opponent in the race for minnesota governor. a new poll shows some 37 per cent and an independent party can it with 14%. for more political news, go to a website. cspan coverage continues tonight with the arkansas senate debate. after that, a debate in the vermont governors race. >> now, a debate among the for the u.s. senate candidates in arkansas. they participated in a debate on

wednesday at the university of central arkansas in conway. the event was organized by the arkansas television network. it is about one hour 25 minutes. >> good evening everyone. i am steve barnes. welcome to debate we, the third night here on the arkansas television network. again, this evening, two sessions for the candidates for the united states senate and then immediately following, the candidates in the fourth congressional district. we begin with the senate campaign. our candidates, senator blanche lincoln the incumbent and

democratic nominee, mr. john gray, the canada of the green party. mr. trevor drown, independent candidate and rep john mosley, a member of the republican party. questioning will done by bill simmons, and malcolm glover of kuar in central arkansas. each candidate will have two minutes -- each candidate will have to minutes for an opening statement and then respond to questions. rebuttals are limited to one minute. each candidate will have two minutes for a closing statement. the order of introductions, opening and closing statements, questions and were bottlesas determined prior to this broadcast by a drawing in which the candidates or their representatives and dissipated. our timekeeper is from arkansas

quiz bowl. with that, our first opening statement by mr. >> my name is trevor, brown and i am a christian. i choose to live my life by god and country. i am a former green beret, a combat veteran in afghanistan and i have- and currently an officer in the air force reserve. i am a common man with uncommon s.perience as turrete the democrat and republican parties in arkansas only make a 80% of registered voters. the majority of those that choose to be independent in the two-party system, i am not arkansas conservative. that means that we have a strong belief in god and inhe constitution as it is wtten. it is not a living and breathing

document that can botch can be changed over time. we have a strong belief in the second and 10th amendment. we believe that life begins at conception. we all have one thing in common. we swore an oath to defend the constitution of the united states. i took that oath on the battlefield of afghanistan and accomplished my mission. they took that oath in washington d.c. and have failed to accomplish theirs. many people wonder why i'm running. it is simple. april 15 of 2009, i was asked to speak at an event and people can come out of the woodwork, asking me to run for it on july 4, i was asked to come back and be the keynote speaker. i informed the crowd that they had failed to do one thing true that they had failed to tell me what office they one of the 214.

i had a poll online -- they wanted me to run for. they would need to run for the seat held by senator lincoln. that is why i stand before you today. >> mr. gray? >> my name is john gray. i was born in arkansas and i am currently the mayor of greenland, arkansas and and and retired engineer. throughout my working career, i have solved problems in manufacturing by taking data and doing what the data tells the to do. as we look around us today, there is all kinds of data that tells us that free trade is not working for the working man for the we have lost 8 million to 2 million jobs due to outsourcing. these jobs are not going to come back to the united states. not until the rules change

courage no corporation is going to pay an american $15 an hour as long as they can get cheap labor from foreigners at 50 cents an hour to build the same car, bring it back here and sell for full price and not pay any consequences to it after world war two, the rules in place were in favor of the small businessman and the small farmer. there were problems,ut those problems were manageable. today, even our food is unsafe because of the inspection process. the united states has always been a trading nation and always will be for over 200 years, we followed of the alexander hamilton rules and we had a balance of trade. we shipped goods and bought raw materials and less money to the world. now, we export rawaterials, we import finished goods and we are

more in debt that any nation in history. this has got to stop. we need to build our manufacturing base and live by the rules that were in place in the 1960's that gave us the strongest middle-class boy ever had. the new york times wrote that in light of globalization, americans are vastly overpaid for the they need to expect across-the-board real wage cut of 20% and get in line. >> mr. gray, i am sorry. i have to call time. >> ms. lincoln? >> i want to thank the panelists for not only being here today, but the dedication to journalism. i want to say a special appreciation to trevor drown and those that have served in our

military. i think that this election is about jobs and the economy. without a doubt, we have the deepest economic crisis that we have seen since the great depression. there is no doubt that government cannot create jobs and need to provide a certainty for industry to be able to know what the rules are and where the investments are going to be and how we will do that and make it happen. that is critically important. this election is also about choices and real differences. real differences that matter. i know that the congressman has voted to privatize medicare and he has also supported the privatization of social security. these are critical programs and something that we cannot subject to privatization. we need to look at how we can better preserve these programs and make them stronger. it is also about independence. trevor mentioned that a little

bit. i am not an automatic for my party. i stand for what is right for arkansas and i think that that has been obvious in many of the actions i he taken. i am out there working to make a difference and to stand up for what is right for arkansas. i am pleased to be here today and i look forward to the questions. i think the candidates that are here. this is a great opportunity for arkansas to see us. with this ncoln, thank you. mr. boozman? >> tha you. it is funny how you can look back and have memories that are very vivid that happened many years ago. i can remember going with my father and go into the local bank who was -- banker, who was

a friend. i do not know if was the plush office furniture, but it was something that stood out. my brother-in-law and brother with to another bank and we ha a dream and we had a plan for the nted to start a clinic. both gotten out of school and had no money. i had a negative net worth after graduating. the banker listened and he looked at us and he had faith in us and as a result, we started a little eye clinic. we had five employees for it we worked hard. we gw into we have 85 employees with 10 doctors went i left. that is how businesses created for that that is the situation we need to get back to, not the method were you try to create jobs by doling out government funds. when the money goes away, t jobs go away. we're trying to decide which direction we are born to go.

are we going to continue with the obama method that he is trying to push, t tax and spend and borrow mentality, the idea that we can grow goverent and solve problems or will we get back to the fair market principles that made this country great? in powering small business and getting out of their way and cutting regulation that is in their way. -- empowering small business and getting out of their way in cutting regulation that is in their way. the last thing that he is going to do is hire additional labor. senator lincoln is very proud of being the prevailing voice on pats -- passing obamacare. i want to go to the senate and do the repeal in -- and the repealing voice. >> the first question goes to

mr. boozman. >> the arkansas lottery raise 106 million for scholarships. -- raise $106 million for scholarships. when i look at your legislation to establish a federal sales tax, i see a 23% tax applied to purchases. is that want to be a tax on the arkansas lottery and what would do to the ability to raise scholarship funds? >> i am very much opposed to the lottery in the sense that i feel that it is a situation where you are getting money in a way that solves some problems, but creates many societal problems. in regard to whether or not we need tax reform, i think that we definitely need tax reform. right now, there are 68,000 pages of the irs.

>> what do you think it would do to scholarship funds? >> let me finish what we need is a tax system that is fair and simple. what we have is not fair. it is not simple. i am very much in favor of looking at the fairfax. i think it is a very viable alternative. i would love to get rid of the irs. i would also be in favor of looking at radically reforming the system that we have right now. if we get ourselves into a situation where we do the concepts where everybody is paying taxes, everybody is contributing, we would be in a situation wher we can handle things like educationnd have more money for that in the long run. >> miss lincoln?

i do not think it is right for arkansas. overnight 5% of our people in arkansas would see an increase in taxes. seniors would see aouble taxation because they have already paid tax into the federal income tax on those resources and in their retirement dollars would again be taxed on anything that they consider the i think that, yes, we can simplify the tax code for the need to make sure that we are doing that. to put a 23% sales tax on everything that you buy whether it is bread, milk, your car, retires, your home, your form -- your form, your college tuition, all of those things. it would be disproportionately more hazardous and put at risk

the hard working people of our state. i think that without a doubt, education is a critical part of what we have to do to create jobs and put our economy on track. we need to make higher education available for as many students as we possibly can and we should not a blockade in from of that. i think that k -- 12 -- k-12 needs to be restructured. i would love to have the opportunity to talk about that as well. i appreciate the fact that a 23% sales tax is going to be a disadvantage to arkansas families and their childr. >> mr. gray? >> a 23% sales tax across the board, if somebody makes a $100,000 a year and lose 25

percent of that, there would still have $75,000. others would find it harder to make ends meet. we need to seek a fairer method of taxation than this because it is highly regressive. as far as your original question about scholarships come i am all for scholarships and building education and technical infrastructure to support jobs. it does not matter to me where the money comes from, as long as it is legal and as long as we build our educational system in this state. >> mr. drown? >> like congressman boozman, we have problems with taxes. both taxes have positives and negatives and unknowns.

his 23% where it is one to stop orill it increase to 30%? -- is 23% where it is going to stop or wl increase to 30%? i can tell you that after having sat down with community leaders around the state that the buying of scholarships -- of lottery tickets have hurt the infrastructure within the state of arkansas. this is more of a state issue. if this was passed and it did affect 20%, i would not have a problem with that and i would dare say that your local community leaders and would not have a problem with either. >> mr. boozman, a one-minute or bottle. i would say that when you talk about a fair tax, you're talking about getting rid of all the federal taxes. there is a predate built-in to take care of those in poverty.

i think it is an interesting concept and is to be looked at. -- that needs to be looked at. it is interesting. we talked about school scholarships and things like that and methods of funding, the lottery system is probably the most regressive thing that we can do. ies, you look at the county i the poorest counties in the state are hurt the most. i do not know exactly how that would be affected, but i am in favor of tax reform. i am in favor of making it simple and fair. that is what the people of arkansas are asking me to do. is this something that will be decided offhand? this will take the president supporting what ever we come up with.

>> mr. boozman, thank you. our next question comes from glenn morrison is directed first to ms. lincoln. >> the last time the federal budget was balanced, which i think all the candidates agree is a desirable thing, income-tax rates were higher than they are now. if it is possible to do this without increasing taxes, where it should spending cuts come from and it is not possible to return to a balanced budget without raising anyone's taxes, please describe the tax increases for specific spending cuts the think would best guess to a balanced budget. >> in regards to the tax system that we have right now, an i know it has been frustrating to a lot of the media and others, i do not feel that i have to fit into the boxes of president tax package for it i do

not agree with how he chooses to do that. we do not need to go back and rubberstamp a 2001 tax policy when we incurred that policy during a time of surpluses. we were not in two wars. it is important for us to lk at what is the best tax policy that is going to allow us to grow our economy and bring down our debt. those are the two most important things that we have to do. looking at the tax policy that we have, i definitely support extending the tax cuts. i think that the low and middle income folks will spend that money. it is going to be a huge part of gdp and we need to make sure that happens. those that are above the $250,000 level, i think it is appropriate to look, while we

are fighting two wars, and not asking the american people to pay for it, that we should look at what is the best balance of tax policy within those categories to see what is going to grow our economy and help us bring down that debt. i think it has to involve spending cuts. i have been very supportive of spending cuts. everything from the presidential spending to cutting nasa and several other places . i think it will take a combination of things. it does not have to be one or the other. it has to be a combination. >> ms. lincoln, thank you. mr. gray? >> i think that we have to bear in mind that allowing the extension of the tax cuts, everyone gets a tax break up to

$250,000 in the richer only being asked to pass -- to pay 3 percent above that. if they cannot afford that, -- the estate tax should remain intact. we need to cut spending such as military spending. in the cold war stance, 1.3 million people are unemployed. we have programs such as the f 35 fighter this was designed for russia. this thing that builds and it is state of the art. a ghost three times faster than anything else in the air.

but it represents a real drag on our economy. programs like that should be cut and it would free up money for many other things. >> mr. gray, thank you. mr. drown? >> i think that we could return to a balanced budget without raising taxes. we had a program that can online in 1980 d president reagan made a comeback -- a campaign promise to do away with it. it was a platform of the reblican party for many years and theyave strayed. it has taken away the education of our children from the local and state level. it is doing more harm than good. why don't we quit sending billions of dollars overseas? e people of this country are hurting. in this state alone, citizens are having trouble putting food on t table.

this government is still quick to send money overseas. i am sick and tired of the people of this nation being given second seat to the rest of the world. when it comes to raising taxes for those who make over $250,000, you have to be aware that some of those small business owners showed that they make $250,000 a year. that is gross income. that is not what they are taking home. are they to be punished for succeeding in the american dream? >> mr. drown, and to. mr. boozman? >> i think that we can balance the budget and we can do it without raising significant taxes. abnormal one testified several weeks ago when asked the greatest threat to our national security was, he did not say al qaeda, he did not say iraq, he did not say iran. he said that the greatest threat was the debt.

he said that in a few years, we would be spending more on servicing the debt then on defense. we need a balanced budget amendment. the state of arkansas has that. governor clinton, gov. how to be and our current governor have balanced the budget because they had to. we also need a le-item veto. we need the ability for this president to blo the port that is added at a last-minute. we need to maket so that illegal immigrants cannot draw from programs. we are wasting hundreds of billions of dollars in that regard. every program, if you name what it is, we would have 60, 7480 agencies doing the same thing. we need to get rid of that bureaucracy. everyone agrees that 10% of medicaid and medicare is waste,

fraud and abuse. the last thing that i would do is repeal of obamacare. that would add 17,000 additional the term employees. afterpeing one trillion dollars in taxes and cutting medicare tthe bone, those of the programs that i would look at. -- those are the programs that i would look at. >> miss lincoln? what i believe that balancing the budget is a good thing. i voted for a surplus. i think that it is important that we look at opportunities to give people their own money to invest. i have produced a bipartisan estate tax proposal. i do not think that we should go back to where we were before 2001, neither do i think we should leave it where was in

2009. i believe that we should leave the dividends and cap gains in order to allow people to have more resources to reinvest. that is a great way to grow jobs and put money back into the treasury as well as make sure that people have money to take care of their families. i think that an independt voice is critical. i have always supported a constitutional amendment to balance the budget. the pay-go rules to balance the budget and make those tough choices that we have to make in congress. >> senator, thank you. our next question comes for malcolm glover. >> mr. gray, with the current state of our economy, we have an important hiring decision to make. outside of being mayor of greenland and a former engineer, what qualifies you for this high office? what are you better suited to

solve these problems than your opponents? >> the reason that i am involved in this is to make a better future for my children and my grandchildren. my experience in the workplace, since the early 1980's, i have been involved in moving production lines. i have watched free trade and nafta it evolves. -- nast that evil. evolves.afta after we got nafta into mexico, they started wanting a little bit more money. when they wanted significantly more than 40 cents an hour, the jobs went to china.

so, what i am saying is that this entire religion that has been born around free trade and trickle-down economics has to be shown for what it is. it is destroying this country and destroying the world. the mexican friends that i have in mexico ofor worse off than they were before nafta came. i think he would be a good idea to revive it with the whole thing and getting out of the wto and getting out of nafta and bringing our jobs back home. >> mr. brown? >> what qualifies me for this office? the constitutio of the united states. i am here because i was asked. i am the first candidate in over 30 years to be on the ballot as an independent. i am a firm believer that the people of this countrynows how to fix the problem that ails

this nation. i have traveled the state of arkansas and listened to the people. as a small-business owner, i know that spending more money than you take in will's bought -- but you're out of business quick. my experience in the military as a green beret and intelligence officer has given me insight in a global threat that exists today in regards to this nation. as a ups driver, i saw arkans in its natural state every single day, at its best and at its worst. i will put my experience up against either the congressman for the senator prior to the day they took office and i have to wonder, at this point, based on the direction of this country has gone, what experience did they bring to the table? what mr. boozman? >> i am an optometrist and i dr.

i understand the sick feeling in your stomach when the insurance guy comes by and says that your premium is going up 16%, which is happening all across arkansas right now. as an optometrist, i understand the medical care, and the medical and of things besides being a small business person. i was on the school board for seven years and had a small form. my girls were very active in forage and would show tells and that was a tremendous experience -- in 4 h and would show cows and that was a tremendous experience. i voted against the idea of stimulus spending, the bailouts for everything. i understand that you cannot tax and borrow and spend your way to prosperity.

most people agree that the unemployment numbers have come out. 70,000 people have gotten checks that are dead. the list goes on in bond. the problem with the stimulus approach is that when the money goes away, the job goes away. what we have to do is give tax credits not only to small but large business. that is how we will work our way out of thisconomy grew at the answer is not tremendous growth in government, the answer is the people of america. >> miss lincoln? >> thank you for the question. before i ran for congress, i had never run for anything before that except in high school.

i had a deep desire to give back and i think that that desire is still there. i come from afar family and i work for small businesses after school and also worked for my dad during the summer after school. -- i come from a farm family and i worked for small businesses after school and also worked for my dad during the summer after school. i think it is important for us to realize that putting jobs back out into our community is one to be a critical part of how we put our economy back on track. i disagree with mr. gray. i think the trade is important. my dad said a long time ago that you cannot circle your wagons and a cellular widgets' back and forth to each other. ihink that opening up trade will create jobs inhis

countr and make sure that we are part of that global economy. that is a partf putting our economy back on track in creating those jobs. ihink that certain to in government, if there's anything that we have proced in washington, is unpredictability 3 whether it is regulation or tax policy or trade policy, unfortunately, the businesses have been put in an an unpredictable situation. i will continue to fight that. tax policy is another way to create jobs. the best thing that i have going for me in this race is that i am a mother, a daughter, a wife, and i take those very seriously. >> mr. gray, you have one minute for rebuttal. >> back in 1793, it protected us

for 200 years. when we got off of that track, the asian countries got on it. they are now falling hamilton's plan and beating us to death with it. -- following hamilton's plan and being as to death with it. they need each year in order to plant their trade with each other for the next year. they had balanced trade with each other and they laugh at us because we allow these huge trade imbalances. they are using our own system to destroy us. we need to get back on the proven path and we need to reestablish control. >> our next question comes from bill simmons and in goes to mr. brown. >> -- it goes to mr. brown. >> convert -- congressman boozman you and senator lincoln

had been in washington. after 10 years of -- talking about balancing the budget and cutting taxes, why should you get another chance? >> first of all, i'd like to readdress the biggest question. having traveled the state of arkansas, you find that jobs are drying up and blowing away. every time you talk to people in this state, they will tell you that the manufacturing jobs around the state have moved out of the country after nafta can online. we need to ruce the -- we need to revisit the free-trade agreement. as for the question as to what -- you have 10 to 18 years in

office. th is long enough to show us whether or not they can lead and voice opinions. at this point, based on myself and conversations with citizens across the state, we are in agreement that it is time for change. we need to once again bring the u.s. senate seat back to the people of arkansas and begin governing from the bottom of this of the top down. >> mr. boozman? >> when the bush administration came to power, you have the bust of the dot coms. 9/11 happen almost immediately. being a small businessman, that ground our business to a halt. we immediately started to wars

and we have homeland's security and wasted too much money. the thought of having a $250 billion deficit, i think that the most deficit that bush had was for and $50 billion. -- $450illion. we have a bigger deficit than that last year. we have deficits like that as far as the eye can see. i consistently voted no a held the line on the spending. in the last two years, we will have had a 23% increase in federal spending will got to draw the line. i'm prepared to do that. we have got to say no. i say that we do that by starting with a balanced budget amendment and then get our fiscal house in order.

i think that we have learned our lessons and the good thing is that the people arkansas and the pele of america are paying attention and therefore to hold accountable. so, we have to produce. as i said, this is critical for our generation and so critical for our children and grandchildren. >> this lincoln? > the 1.3 trillion dollars - deficit that we see, we have not experienced an economic crisis like we experienced in 2008 and 2009 since the great depression for this was not brought on by a new administration. i was one of those that visited with the bush should administration and the chairman of the federal reserve controls and said that everything was ok in 2008 and then came out and

said that the sky is falling. the oblem is, we have had a circumstance with an economic crisis and we have to do something about it. i hate to think about what would have happened if we had not put some of those dollars into small businesses and working families. that is what the majority -- that is ere the majority of the money went. the recovery dollars serviced citizens and their drinking water. this created immediate jobs. it also created an environment where we could then grow sustainable jobs which i think is important. there is no doubt that the congressman is right. we have seen, for the first time in the history of our country, but we're fighting two wars

without paying for them. there were other things, the creation of a new homeland security agency. i am an independent voice and i have stood up to the epa and wall street and washington reform. i have been an independent voice for arkansas and i think that is most important in washington to have someone who has an independent voice that will come to common ground to solve the problem. >> mr. gray, one minute. >> what we see played out here is the two santa claus theory. one party comes to power and they spend like drunken sailors and in the next party comes to power and they say it is all on their fault. a balanced budget makes an awful good bit of sense, but

until you put everything on that budget, and consider that part of the balanced budget, you're not playing fair. to balance the budget on the backs of middle-class people, i cannot go there. >> you have some additional time, sir. >> this to santa claus theory has beeplaying out for some time now. if you will notice, you'll find that one party tends to start wars and one party tends to end them. if you look at a chart of expenses from the beginning of this century, you will find that when the republicans are in power, -- the democrats do a much better fiscal john the republicans do in my opinion. >> thank you.

mr. drown, you have one minute or bottle. i'd still do not see why these two should be given another chance. both voted for increasing the debt ceiling which has pushed us farther into debt and caused the deaths of to expand. the two-party -- the deficit to expand. the two-party system has run the country into the ground. what is most disturbing to me as a common person sitting back watching what was taking place was when health care became the priority when the economy was failing and people were losing their jobs. stories work. the economy should of been a priority, the four focus on heal care. it took another year to address the economy of. with that being said, we need leaders in washington.

coon-sense principles would get this country back on track. >> thank you, very much. our next question comes from glen morrison and goes to mr. boozman. >> the idea that the health-care system in this country was just fine until obama started messing with it is crazy. if the health care reform will work to be repealed at, as you said is your goal, law would replace it? would it just go back to the previous system that left half ns withoutarkansas inrance. >> we definity need health reform. the major problems that we have confronting us now and confronting us before the bill came into being was controlling costs. there is absolutely -- seniors

have figured out that you cannot cut the medicare system by $500 billion, at 30% more patience, and so something has to give, and that as quality of care. the mandates that are coming down on small business people, i was in fort smith and was told that this would cost the company to he dollars a year. the system that we have does noing to control costs through the is that you do that is that even to things left court reform and getting into the malpractice suits. -- to this like tort reform and getting into the malpractice suits. right now, you have to buy

within state lines. you have to expand that so you can buy whatever -- wherever it is t cheapest. my barber can go into the marketplace and buy insurance and get the same rate as a major corporation. those are the free market principles that we can use to reduce costs versus the other which is doing nothing about cost and we are in much worse shape. >> ms. lincoln? >> without a doubt, we have been trying desperately to figures out how we solve the issue of reforming our health care delivery system. we have th greatest doctors and nurses and research and hospitals in the world, but the logistics of our delivery system are broken and we have to fix them. we're spending twice as much

more than the other industrialized natns that we compete with and we're seeing health-care consist of 60% of our gdp. -- 16% of our gdp. the health care reform bill does allow you to buy across state lines. national insurers are able to participate in these pools and you will have a national insurance company that is selling across state lines. when i listen to people from arkansas, the latino what they wanted to see happen. -- they let me know wha they wanted to see happen. i was pleased to see that a bill that i introduced in a bar part a bipartisan way, we are the only ones mandated to be in those pools.

they wanted insurance reform. we eliminated the ability for insurance companies to be able to drop you because you have become ill afford to preclude you from getng insurance if you have a pre-existing condition. people said that they did not want government reform our -- government run health care. the also said they wanted less debt. they made sure that put $132 billion towards the of a reduction. it is not a perfect bill, but it is a good start and i am willing to work hard to make it better. >> thank you. mr. gray? >> the health-care bill that was

passed had some very nice elements in that for the average person. you cannot be dropped because you get sick and and kids can be held until they are 26 third. i asked a man if you're on medicare and he asked why he did not want for his children. i told him that that is what we were talking about. having your health insurance connected to your work makes no sense whatsoever. we are the only country in the civilized world that allows for- profit health insurance to be sold. you can so cadillac policy is -- policies, but not basic health care. if we went to health care for everybody -- i sold insurance

for a year. one thing i have learned is that i do not see any reason for a health insurance company. the government becomes the insurance company. the current system, the insurance company takes about 30% off of every dollar and the doctors have to do tests to protect themselves. you spent 60% of your money before a sgle dollar goes to help anybody. i do not see any reason for their existence. >> mr. drown? >> the one thing i have found in debates is the reference to obamacare. i do not agree with this president or his policies, but

he is the president of united states. if we are willing to be a professional and referred to it as obamacare, then it is te to rethink who you will send to washington. we have the best health care system and the world. whenever the federal government touches anything and tries to dictate how the state will conduct business because the state knows what is best for the people of their state, tt we always failed. i agree with congressman boozman that with the state mandating what will be followed in order to do business in the state of arkansas is the direction in in which we need to go. i have talked with parents of children with special needs and they have trouble getting health-care with the way the current system is in place. i am for getting rid of the health care mandate that is

unconstitutional and moving to allow the states to exercise the 10th amendment right and left them a mandate how to conduct the health-care system inheir state. >> mr. drown, thank you. >> mr. boozman, one minute. >> there is already significant concern that there is going to be tremendous cost in the area of going across state lines. those of us the want to have private insurance, that most of us do have an most of us would like to keep, there is no ability to buy across state lines and reduce costs. that is a real problem. because o that, tre is no competition. costs are continuing to soar. i feel like the obamacare program, and i mean no disrespect by the president, if you ask jim, this is his

signature program. the tremendous expense will rise dramatically because employees have figured out that the cheapest way to get out from underneath this is to pay the fine and push all of their people into the dorm room program. >> mr. boozman, thank you. >> senator lincoln, all the men and women that served in our armed forces, do you agree with some of the members of the joint chiefs and military brass that don't ask don't tell should be repealed? first of all, i would like to address the state line issue because it is in the bill that you would be able to purchase across the lines because the regional pools will allow

national companies to participate in those programs. i think that is an important thing to remember. we have had a recent debate in committee and i support senator lieberman in his efforts of a repeal of don't ask don't tell under the provision of the military and the pentagon, that the military would determine whether or not there was any jeopdize some of morale or treat street for troop strength -- or troop strength. i would not be supportive of making this part of that proposal to make sure that the military confirms that there will be no detriment to the

troop strength and morale or the efficiency and effectiveness of our troops. there are many brave men and women that served this country that are courageous and i am enormously grateful to them. military leaders should have that opportunity to indicate to us whether or not this is for to have any detriment to that troop strength. i don't have a problem waiting until we see what the military comes back with. the report should be due by the first of december and we're waiting to see what will come back. i support them in their decision. >> mr. gray? >> i support the repeal of don't ask don't tell. i believe that everyone deserves basic human rights. what people do in their own personal lives is no bodies

business but there's -- he is nobody's business but there's. -- is nobo's business but there'irs. as miss lincoln says, these people are brave and honorable people. they serve their nation well. to lose those things over some sort of -- it is almost like the american caliban, kind of thinking. i do not understand. taliban kinderican calib of thinking. >> mr. drown?

my answer in -- >> my answer is no. we have the strongest military on the face of the earth. to serve in the military is not a right. it is a privilege. it is not a social experiment to the -- for those who do not understand what takes place from the first day of basic training until you get into combat. you havenough on your mind when the bullets start flying to worry about what is taking place next to you or what will take place. i and sang -- am asking what you will do, such as having separate shower facilities and separate bettingacilities? the only time that i know of serving side-by-side with a homosexual is when the bullets are flying, you know you were at

the end of your rope and you do not care who is standing next to you as long as somebody is standing next to you. again, my answer is no. based on my experience as a combat veteran, i do not think it is in the interest of the not states military to repeal ask don't tell. >> mr. boozman? >> is very much opposed repealing the don't ask don't tell. i think that the current policy has worked well. we have not had significant problems with it. for those reasons and the fact that the vast majority of the people of arkans feel like the current policy is very adequate, quite content to leave it as it is. >> mrs. lincoln? >> i have a gratitude for the

men and women who serve in the med forces. that is why i not only lott and praise them, but i do thk that it is important for us to look at this issue. my support of senator lieberman and his coming up with a compromise to repeal don't ask don't tell, it will not provide any problem in terms of troop strength and routed i think the opportunity to make sure that all of the needs of the military are met. whether it is in languages or other areas. i think there is opportunity

there and i think -- i will look for the report from the military. >> in cutting the federal budget, the choice has to be made. are you for to cut it or are you not going to cut it? if you do not cut it, you work or to spend money in arkansas. will you be getting money for an arkansas or will you be cutting the budget while all the delegations get money for their states? which comes first with you? >> i am not really sure i understand the question. would he repeated? -- would you repeat it? >> senator lincoln is very good at that. congressman boozman is talking about cutting the federal budget by cutting spending. he has held himself out as the candor that would do less than that than senator lincoln.

which will come first with you? we'll try to get the money for arkansas or will you cut the federal budget? >> i think that the zero -- >> i am going to ask the timekeeper to reset the te. go ahead. >> the right place to attain dollars is inhe federal budget. it is like the f 35 fighter program that i talked about before. there are 865 military bases around the world. there are so many places we can cut without doing any damage at all to our national standing for our national security. if you're trying to maintain a global economic and military pire, you have t recognize that empires do not end well.

i am saying that this would be an opportunity to give back to that and at the same time, not take money away from arkansas that arkansas needs >> mr. drown? >> i am for cutting the budget. someone has to lead the way, why not arkansas politics as usual has killed this and it will continue to send us downhill. this definitely will not be the country that you and i grew up in. i am for cutting the budget and leading the way. i am for politics as usual being put to the side. >> mr. boozman? >> i am very much in favor of cutting spending. if we do not cut it, it is as

simples any thing. we are going to wind up like greece. i have had countless tell homey in reits. i have never hadomebody then on to me and asked me what i do not spend more money. republicans said that they would replace your marks on a moratorium. . .

>> i understand how important spending for infrastructure is, but along with that, we got to get control of the garbage that is coming out of washington. we got to get a handle on it. the only way to do that is look, define what an earmark is and then make some new rules with transparency so the american public can see what we're doing. >> ms. lincoln. >> thank you, bill, i appreciate the question. you know, there are rules on transparency. we do need to put our name besides the request that we make in the appropriations committee and we have to say what it's for. i don't have any apologize for the communities who come to me and ask for assistance to try to find the resources that they need, whether it's for water project or turbine.

john is exactly right. those are good programs. the fact is you have to cut the budget. i have supported amendments that cut the budget, but the fact that he didn't ask for any state-specific projects in that appropriatio bill this year means that the third district got zero when the others got some of those projects. this is an opportunity for us as a small rural state to be able to equalize what we're getting back in those tax dollars. it's one of the reasons as a delegation we fight hard. the congressman had i believe it was $9 billion on his website last year that he requested. the problem was he debate vote for them. these are in the boim. they're budgeted items and appropriated dollars. if you want to cut back, you cut back the budget, not just simply asking for your state. it's going to other states. michigan, arizona, somewhere else. this is one way we have to equalize the needs that we have. it's the reason we're 14th out

of 50 states in terms of the amount of tax dollars thate bring back from what we send in. it's because it's a delegation, we work hard to get those dollars into the state for rural water projects, highway projects and others that we don't have enough of the formula numbers to be able to complete or to be able to get done. i think it's important to note the difference between just simply not asking for something or actually cutting the budget so that you can actually cut spending. i have supported cutting spending, but when there is money on the table, you better believe i'm going ask for it for arkansas. it's going to get spentnyway. we need to get the benefit of those dollars. >> mr. gray. >> well, if you want to cut the budget, if engineers we have a thing which is a statistical breakdown that says 20% of the items usually account for 80% of your expenses. so if you list the items that are on the national agenda no

order of how much each costs, 20% of them spend about 80% of the money. the first place to look, if you want to save money on anover all national budget is an analysis of the entire system and start attacking those things with the real leakage of money. there was a guy who said you go to the banks because that's where the money is. well, you go to the federal government because that is wherthe money is. arkansas is fine for tappi. that's not where the money is. the money is in washington. >> the next question goes first to mr. drown. >> the supreme court's recent decision in the citizens united case that corporate funding of political messages to influence voters cannot be limited is already changing the political landscape. do you agree with the court's decision and do you think that voters should have the right to know exactly who is paying for the expensive political messages that they see and hear?

>> i do not agree with the decision. the runoff and primary that senator lincoln participated in with the lieutenant govern showed roughly $12.5 million spent by the unions across this country. what is happening by allowing the corporations to do this, we are undermining the system in which arkansans are able to effectively and fairly choose whom they want to send to washington, d.c. i do not believe in the direction that the supreme court has done with this. i think they have done a huge disservice to the people of this nation and to the people of arkansas. >> mr. drown, thank you. mr. boozman. >> i agree with the ruling. i think people should have the ability to express themselves in that way and contribute however they feel fit. i very much disagree with some of the legislation that has tried to be implemented lately by president obama and speaker pelosi, mr. reid.

we have a situation where you clamp down on everybody, the exption being to a large extent the unions and people like that. so certainly even they, if they were going to come out with a program that, you know, created more transparency or whatever that it needs to be across the board and the legislation that they propose certainly doesn't do that. >> do you think it should be that the voters should know who is paying for the ad? >> i think that the current interpretation by the federal election commission is a correct one. >> ms. lincoln. >> i think absolutely voters should know who is paying for and who is providing that information to them. i love our state and that's the reason i'm running for this office. i have tremendous respect for our nation and our government for all of its faults, it's the greatest government on the face of this earth. i think it can be better. that's what i work hard every day to do. i think one of the biggest issues among the american

people right now in their lack of faith in our government is because of a lack of transparency. i have worked diligently in the united states senate during the health care debate when the republicans oned to my unanimous consent to require everybody to post their amendments to the health care bill on the web so people could see them, i did it on my own website to ensure that people across this country couldee what was being debated and what was being voted on. transparency should be the rule, not the exception. one of the problems that we have, unfortunately, in campaigns and as trevor mentioned, the plea -- plethora of ads and mailers that came out during the primary. people are flooded with this information, particurly now more so than ever before, not knowing where it's coming from or who is responsible for it. transparency is a critical part of gaining the american people's trust in the government and be able to see and know what it is we do in

washington, more importantly, what we're doing and what is happening in these campaigns. so i believe transparency is a critical part of what we have to have. i think it should happen in campaign as well. we have the most regulated contributions of anybody in a campaign. candidates have to report everything they get, every dollar they get from a person has to be reported as to who that person or group is. they have to have all of their reporting in. we have the mostransparent of all in terms of those who give to us and what we say being attributed to us. i think others should as well. >> mr. gray. >> ok, i'm here because i was sued for discriminating against a corporation. i caught the attention of the green party in the process. my stance at the time was, fine, bring it on, because corporations are legal entities. they are not people. to say that wal-mart, to mention a name, is the same

under e law as my mother who is 90 years old and can hardly hear is ridiculous. to say that they have the same equal rights of speech, i think they have a bit more money than sh does. now trevor was talking about unions contributing in the thing. unions conibuted, sure, in the election, but the unions putting all their money together is mere poet change compared to the colt brohers. i think the court ruling was absolutely absurd. i think it's a huge step towards george h.w. bush's new world order of corporate corol of anything. because of that ruling, the window of opportunity where a citizen's vote will count is closing rapidly. soon it will not matter what the average citizen thinks because the propaganda on the television will be bought and

shaped. their opinions will be bought and shaped so that this country will effectively be done for. this law must be overturned if this nation wants to survive. >> thank you, mr. drown. >> based on this ruling, one of the recurring conversations i have around the state of arkansas, people are starting to revisit repealing the 17th amendment. i am for transparency, but by repealing the 17th amendment and allowing our state legislature to once again appoint that are going to washington, d.c., we have term limits in our state among the ate lars. it would not be a recurring cycle with sending the same people to washington, d.c. that is is why based on our candidates they are very troubled with the ruling and they are looking to other means to bring the control back to themselves here in the state of arkansas. >> mr. drown, thank you very much.

we have reached the point in our broadcast tonight in the debate for closing statements and we begin with mr. gray. >> well, as i say, i'm here because i was asked to be here, but this is the first opportunity -- i have been fighting nafta free trade and w.p.o. for over three years, writing and talking. i am worried about the future for my children, my grandchildren. they inherited a world that is a disaster compared to the world that i faced when i came out of college. i was an average engineer. i had seven jobs on the table. i took one of them. iought a house, cars, put my wife through graduate school, put my children through private schools, took a vacation every year and saved money. an average gduate cannot do that today. school was essentially free back then. you could o a part-time job put yourself through school. kids have cards stacked so

against them, it makes your heart bleed. i'm saying that has got to be reversed. weot to move back to thomas jefferson's original concept like at the university of virginia. he was proud of the fact that he provided a free education through college to anybody willing to put out the work. that is the best investment in the future of this country that can be made and we have got to get back to that. so i am saying instead of focuses on details of these trade agreements and all that sort of thing, i mean, look, we ship out right now scrap steel and cotton are two of our major exports. cotton was the major export during the revolutionary war. for heaven's sake, we have to do better than that. we had a revolutionary war because they wanted to make our shirts for us and they wanted us to supply the cotton. china has taken their place.

that's not acceptable to me, thank you. >> 34r gray, thank you. mr. drown. >> we have to ask ourselves one question, how did we get to this point as a nation and a state? as i travel around the state, i hear three occurring concerns -- the economy, jobs, and nobody is listening. the day i take office, the majority of the staff positions are coming back to arkansas. arkansans working for arkansans seven seven 1/2 county will have jobs that have the locality community leaders and have a direct line to the senate. if we aren't able to fix it at home first, how are we going to fix it on the national level. i will will have one stationary office in the middle of the state. it will have a computer-based system. when a bill comes up for a vote, unless it's illegal, immoral or unconstitutional which is where i draw the line, it's not up for discussion, i will put the bullet points up

and tell you why i agree or disagree with it and welcome your feedback. i will start off with one mobile office. if budget depends, we'll have satellitevideo conferencing equipment that will put me face-to-face with the community in arkansas at least one day a week in a town hall environment. it will keep this, ts access will keep me grounded and in touch with the pulse of arkansas and will once again allow the people to govern from the bottom up instead of the top down. arkansas has a chance to lead and you have one choice. you either stand up and step forward or sit down and take a back seat and watch this country continue down the path that has traveled down for the lt few decades. as the independent candidate for u.s. senate, i ask you for your vote on november 2. i ask that you vote trevor drown, u.s. senate, and help me again leading this country back

to the constitution and the republic the way the founding fathers had meant it to be, thank you. >> thank you, sir. >> mr. boozman. >> thank you, steve. i can remember back several years ago seeing a patient in the clinic. this gentleman had a significant heart attack. he came in and he was concerned that his vision had been affected with his circulation or whatever because it changed a little bit. we did the test and his vision was fine. we just needed to strengthen his glasses a little bit. i got to looking at him, though, he lost 50 pounds. his block work was excellent. he was taking his medicine. he was getting the exercise that he needed and as a result, he was doing quite well and on the road back to being healthier than ever. i pat him on the knee as we got done, i said,ook, this is good that this has happened to you, you're back on track and live longer than ever. i really believe that the country is in that situation right now. we have had a significant heart attack in the sense.

we got to decide which way are we going? are we going the obama route of the tax and spend and borrow mentality, trying to solve all of our problems by growing government, or are we going to get back to the free market principals that made our country great? not the stimulus approach, not the bailout approach of everything imaginable, but getting back to creating real jobs by cutting taxes on small business and business in general, giving them the tools that they need to invest in their businesses. the answer to our problems is not big government. the answer to our problems are the people of america. now, i voted against those things and will continue to do that. senator lincoln is very proud of being the deciding vote on obama care. i want to be the deciding vote to repeal it. so i ask the people of arkansas to join with me. again, we got to get things back on the right track and if you'll help me, i would

appreciate your vote and i would appreciate your support. thank you very much. >> mr. boozman, thank you, ms. lincoln. >> thank you, thanks to you, steve, and the panel, we appreciate all of your work here today. we want to thank our hosts today. you know, i still believe that the biggt issue in this campaign is jobs and the economy. i think if we put off 100,000 arkansans that are out of work back to work, if we do that as well as people all across this country, we're going to see our economy grow. i think there is great opportunity with that. i don't think government is going to produce those jobs. i think industry will. we got torovide them an environment from government that creates certainty in terms of the tax code and regulations and other things that they need to be aware of. we need to open up trade, making sure that exports are increased. we also need to look at tax policy. i have been a tremendous supporter of lowering the tax burden of small businesses and making sure that they have the ability to reinvest in

themselves. i also have supported the incentive to keep jobs in this country and taken away the incentives for companies that are sending their jobs away overseas. i think that is quite important. th election is really about choices. it's about huge choices. and it's about differences and there are differences that matter. when we talk about social security and medicare, i have worked hard to make sure that we preserve social security and medicare. we have 500,000 arkansans that depend on medicare and over 600,000 arkansans that depend on social security. it's an enormous part of our economy and we should make sure we're preserving it and not privatizing it which is what the congressman would do. putting a 23% sales tax on everything you buy is a bad idea. it's also unbelievable harmful to our seniors and our retirees. this is about having an independent voice in washington, and i have worked hard as i have been in washington to be that independen voice, but i have

also stood up for my priorities. my priorities have always been and always will be my faith, my fami, and my loyalty to the people of arkansas and i will work hard to maintain that. i certainly want to ask for your vote on november 2. thank you. >> ms. lincoln, thank you. and that concludes this chapter the debates of 2010. we are again thank our candidates for the united states senate and our panel of journalists and we invite you to stay tuned. we'll be back in just a moment with the candidates for congress in the fourth district. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--

[captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010]

c-span.org/lcv. washington journal continues. >> you've been hearing a lot about american cross roads. first on the screen is psident of this group. formed this year is citizens united. headline in u.s.a. today. campaign spending by groups gone wild. they are suggesting that the tally right now at 220 million is roughly twi the $111 million similar groups spent previously. what does this mean to the public? >> there's a lot of people concerned about the direction of theountry very much in line

with when we saw in the direction of president bush spending almost equal amounts this has been going on since the legislation passed. just now, republican groups are figuring out how to do it. >> foryou, speech activity means contributions. jo it means to facilitate our message explain the concept.

the sense had a sense going toward a liberal sense. we thought there might be a chance to get some real change in washington. we'd seen for many years, the success and other organizations that are harnessed outside energy the response has been

unbelievable. >> american cross roads is an orange formed purely for a political purposes. cross roads gps is primarily involved in issue advocacy. there will be more of that we'll see next year. we do some of that under cross roads gps. >> what are the disclosures for those groups now. those expenditures every single

month. you can go to their website and see everything american cross roads does. 501 c 4 legislation. we disclose everything to the internal revenue service. jo t revenue service could take action on it. that's been the law that prodemocrat groups used primarily and on the independent organizations as well. that's the distinction for these two groups. host: notifying who is getting to the groups heavily involved. the congressman will have you respond, please. >> this is a matter of

republicans beating you at the game when it comes to money? >>no, it does knots. some of these groups, american cross roads are spending a lot of money hear the rule these chose to operate under. we are talking massive amounts of secret money. everybody shoul tell the voters who is spending these monies. that is the issue. >> there is a lot of out reach going on he knows organized

labor can discuss. it's true they do make some decision closures in the labor department. the level of disclosure that organized labor does is by no means the organization it's really a red herring. if you go outside of the be beltway, most americans will talk before the fact that we have a $13 million debt. frankly, a lot we hear from fresh the facts there are outside groups like us holding

the president. prolonging our recession. to spend a lot of time talking about the campaign finance law completely misses the boat. host: $65 million you have pledged to spend. $9.6%. that's true. that's our goal. when we started out, we hoped to raise of 0. that's more than 18 million. even when cross roads gps or cross roads expresses something about a candidate, awful that is

disclosed. we disclose everyone in that orangization. . . flu

host: mr. law was the manager of mitch mcconnell's first reelection in 1990. he was executive director of the republican senatorial committee for the 1998 and 2000 cycles, served in the george w. bush administration as deputy secrety of the labor department, and before coming to american crossroads he was the chief legal officer and general concert of -- general counsel of the u.s. chamber of commerce. there is a column about the chamber and suggested after the election that there is an opportunity for the chamber and the white house to make up. do you see that? guest: i thinkt is awfully important for the chamber and the white house to do it. there are the leading voice of

business in the country, and they reprent local chambers of commerce all across the country, local small businesses that will be e engine of the economic recovery that we desperately need. i think it hurts the white house, i think it has hur and will continue to hurt the white house to be viewed in a feud with the small business voices that are really the representation of future growth across this country. the concern that the chamber had is that the white house took it -- took a take-it-or-leave-it attitude toward the business community toward what they wanted to do on health care. frankly, the congress took a take-it-or-leave-it attitude with the entire country. they were not interested in changes to health care, and that engendered very bad feelings. again, i think the white house, strangely, has made some significant tactical mistakes,

in trying to demonize groups that have a tremendous amount of respect and affecon in this country, such as the u.s. chamber of commerce, which if you take public opinion polls, has a higher approval number than the president does right now. they are trying to create a good relationship and look toward ilding the jobs that so many people are concerned about, striking 9% unemployment in this country. host: how many senate races are you involved in? guest: about nine or 10, shifting every day depending on the circumstances. host: party in the headlines frequently? guest: there all along the lines of competitive states like missouri, kentucky. pennsylvania we feel reasonably good about, but that is again one of the ones were watching very carefully. washington state, wisconsin, florida -- again, another state have been active in that is

now looking a little bit better. and west virginia, which has recently emerged on the scene as a significant potential pickup for republicans. a few more that i am aving out. host: how about colorado? i see a lo of money in reports going to that. guest: certainly colorado. host: what about house races? guest: we announced th week that we will be supporting other groups that the house served. the democratic party committees are poised to outspend republicans by about two-one. it is important to note that because what democrats have done very skillfully over the last couple of years is shaken the money tree in washington. they have worked case treat heart, and their committees have gotten -- they have worked k street hard, and there

committees have got more campaign to retributions and the republican campaign committees have god -- have done more campaign contributions than the republican campaign committees have gotten. host: are you spending money to support the tea party? guest: we are probably the largest outside spending on the republican side in favor of sharron angle, wis probably an essential tea party candidate -- who is probably an essential key party candidate. on the house side as well, some of the races that we're taking a look at also have tea party candidates engaged. host: moving to policy, and it looks like it has alreadyeen moved out of the studio, but i showed the front-page cover o the "bloomberg business week." "why business does not trust the tea party." more explanation in the internal headline, which suggests that the tea party small government

slogans may be appealing, but it could throw the country into chaos. guest: i do think that what a lot of tea party candidates bring to the table, which is valuable, is a healthy concern about the size of government, the breadth of government, and the amount of government spending. they bring a healthy reminder that what is country's values were founded on this self- reliance, limited government, and unfortunately the -- washington seems to have forgotten that, and that is much the fault of republicans as it is democrats. more government spending and regulation is always the answer to everything, and they will not -- even if the republicans have

a great day in november -- and i certainly hope they do -- we will not have an unfettered power here in washington. we will still have a veto pen at the other brand of pennsylvania avenue, and the democrats will still have significant power. they will bring an important voice to a debate that needs to be had about the right role of vernment, and that is a positive thing. host: let's get some viewers in here. white plains, new york, tony, democrats line. caller: good morning, mr. law. isn't american democracy great, where you can swift-vote america and get whatever you want? your obsession with violence -- on the iraqis, money-bomb the u.s. -- where does it end? it appears to be that conservatism is mostly about incomes, not outcomes. i think there really should be

an investigation into alito and his ties with ginsberg and citins united. guest: there are a lot of issues presented there, and i appreciate the passion. i will go right into the question in a second, but i think one of the things that is significant about this election cycle -- it has been true in 2008 and 2006 - there has been a tremendous amount of passion and energy on both sid. as aepublican, i was more on the receiving end of it in 2006 and 2008, but all of the voter turnout and people getting involved, and all of what we are seeing on our side, i thi are very salutary for democracy. it is a sign that our democracy is alive and well. with respect to specifically our organization, i cannot comment on a different supreme court justices. i do not know th well enough. we take the law very seriously. we comply with it.

we comply with it and it is a very important part of what we are about. even with advertising, we try to run very clever and memorable ads. everything we do is documented and we want to tell the truth about where candidates stand and hold them accountable. host: on compliance,ome democrats have been suggesting the possibility of foreign donors. what are the rules? guest: you cannot use feign money to influence a federal election. the president, for reasons that defy comprehensio decided to invest the authority of the president of the united states in making a charge that his since now been knocked down by "the new york times," "the los angeles times," the associated press, and cbs news. i think it was a very embarrassing moment for the

president. his staff seems to think it is a big winner for them to do it, but he is wrong. he is wrong certainly about us, and he is wrong about the u.s. chamber of commerce. it is important that he decided to spend political capital making a false attack against a political opponent. host: so if a foreign corporation or other foreign entity offers you money, you can accept it, you just cannot supply it to campaigns? it can be part of your organization, but you cannot spend it on -- guest: a purely political organization like american crossroads cannot. we would just say no. their trade associations that are international in scope in the modern economy, and you have to be national in scope. the chamber of commerce is relatively small compared to the rest of the organization, and not only is it -- not only is

there no evidence, but i'm confident that the chamber of commerce does not use anything for its international program other than what is there for its initial prram. host: this is colleen, republican line, from virginia. guest: i would love to kw how the obama admintration and president obama specifically can criticize the democratic -- excuse me -- criticize republican groups for the amount of fund raising when his entire campaign was financed by democratic groups and foreign entity spirit is so hypocritical to me. guest: there were allegations of foreign money going directly into the obama campaign. not a huge amount, but there were some it ended up going nowhere. i do not know if there was anything to that or not. to us, the big issue of selective outrage, and maybe the harsher word is a "hypocrisy." the fac you have republican

groups doing exactly the same thing, taking a page ou of the democrats playbook 24 hours ago, and the democrats are concerned about that, and i understand why. they are not the beneficiaries of it the way they were in 2006 and 2008. host: the next caller is from iowa. sika yes, good morning, mr. law. caller: yes, good morning, mr. law. they wanted to put a content all in that would help the contents of buy america only. we have not heard anything about that. it seems that the labor unions

and clinton have nixed that, and that is t a good deal because that would be able to load small-business a lot of money and small business could then employ people. guest: well, i guess my feeling about all that is i would hope that we would not just the satisfied with 10%. my desire and the desire i think of most amicans is that we would be so competitive, have such great products and services, that it ought to be 100%. but i do not think you get there by at opposing an arbitrary government limit. e larger think people are concerned about, we have spent a lot of time talking about politics and where money comes from and that sort of thing, and obviously those areot insignificant issues, but the most people awake at night are where we are going as a country.

in washington, d.c., things are going well. in the economy -- our economy is fairly prosperous, thanks in part to the fact that the government continues to grow. but if you go to the midwest and other places across the country, people are really hurting. we have 15 million americans unemployed. the debt has reached $13 trillion, and a l of people are wondering -- those are the kinds of issues that we are concerne about that we talked about, and frankly the president would do well if he started talking about those things because we have got to start finding solutions. hopefully after november there will be a consensus to get our country back on the rightrack. host: and bob has been made in recent weeks of the enthusiasm gap -- a lot haseen made in recenteeks of the enthusiasm gap between both parties. this is from "the philadelphia inquirer." the joint center for political and economic studies. local black voters are

strategically located to affect 20 house races, he said. another quote from page gardner, "at analyst who tras the mel boehner -- -- female voters -- pointing out that in the last midterm 15 tightly contested house races were dided by 2000 votes. guest: one of our -- it is complex, there is a lot of machinery that goes to reach them even if you are not a ground roots organization. we are not that yet. that is something we would like to become. but to me, turning your vote out is one of the great patriotic thin you can possibly do, so early on we made an investment

up front that we were going to spend at least $10 million, probably a little bit more than that now, on a program called the movers program. it is designed to find the folks care about the issues that we talk about and encourage them to vote. i assume the democrats are doing that, i know that we are doing that in pennsylvania and ohio. good for them, good for them. more people turn out and vote, the more people will get energized and focused on the issues. at is good for democracy. obviously it is more of our voters get out and vote, that makes our candidates win, but in the and that's what they should be about. host: the first lady, as she makes her to work with michael bennett and supporting his candidacy -- which are handicapping of the electorate, how valuable is having the first lady and the president on the road right now? guest: i think it can be. in a non-presidential year, that

is really the critical issue. voter turnout tends tdecline in non-presidential years, so being able to aivate and mobilize your base is an important thing. people who like him a lot, that is an important thing. the first lady is very well liked, more than her husband righ now, and it is good for her be out there. they are needing to do as much as they can to get their vote stimulated. host: next to maryland, bonnie, republican mike. caller: my comment is that when the shoe is on the other foot, the democrats are raising big bucks they brag about, but now that the republicans are doing it, theyre squealing like little pigs. from day one, obama has acted like the campaign manager for the democrats. is thisot a double standard? he spends more time on the road campaigning than he actually does in the white house. hello? we are paying for him to go and

campaign. why does this money not come out of the campaign fund to pay for him to do this? that is my question. guest: whenever a president does political activity, a certain amount of that has to be paid for by the democratic national committee or other political sources. it is not completely underwritten by the government, but you're exactly right, this president has been very politically active. he has been one of the most political presidents we have seen in a long time. this white house staff spends more time on politics than anything we have seen in quite some time. so there are eight very political white house. their decision -- i do believe they play by the same rules in returning to the allocation of spending this past presidents have, but you're exactly right, he is very focused on politics. you are also right that when the shoe was on the other foot, they were happy to have for under $50

million spent on them to get elected. now they do not like it -- they were happy to havenet and i

approve this message because i'm nobody's senator but yours. host: tracking from october 14 suggests that $3.3 milln has been spent by independent outside groups, in that campaign against senator bennet is that all of your money, $3.3 million? guest: no, we have been active there, the senate committees have been active there. host: talk about the themes that we have heard in the campaign. guest: very interesting what plays off in the band -- in the -- the adnnett ad that we just play it originated

with a "new york times" expos e. we are the group that comes into the fray to talk about that issue. it is not sthat michael bennett made a mistake and put the school board into a risky deal. the key issue is that he took money from the wall street firm that processed that transaction and ended up working out very poorlyor denver taxpayers per that is the kind of thing that i think has gotten voters very upset about. the ad that you played for michael bennet, he says i'm not about politics as usual, i am not for sale -- people make mistakes, and everybody that.tand there were a lot of mistakes made in the financial crisis that we experienced in 2008, but is that kind of behavior that suggests that michael bennett is not a departure from the culture of washington. in fact, over time he has become

part of it. host: we are talking with steven , the president and ceo of american crossroads. our next caller. caller: you all talk on the education level of white working class people who call themselves republicans. how about the international companies oversee that -- overseas that you' sending jobs abroad? you have got to have somebody making the product over there. the working cla republicans out there, just keep boating republican, and your jobs will go over there. the schools will be run down,

and you will notave nothing. you do not have nothing now. that is all i have got to separatsaid. guest: i appreciate that. we do not take foreign money. we do not take foreign money. we do not take foreign money. one of the great things about my job is i sign all of the thank you notes thato donors tht give us money. our donor supported ts was quite large contributions and we are grateful for that. we get a lot contributions -- in fact, more people give us a very small contributions -- $10, $20, $50 -- and some of these folks do not have a lot of money. unemployed bus driver, homemakers. i goa letter from somebody the other day who has been disabled for years. the fortunate thing is they see george soros, all this talk

about money in politics, and they tnk what can i do? this guy said i do not have a lot of money, and disabled, but i will send you $10 because i am concerned about the direction of the company. that is one of the rewarding things i get to do in my job, and there are a lot of people that are concerned about the directionf the country, just like you are in ways that you expressed yourself very passionately. i think that is good for democracy, and i think the amount of robust activity we're seeing shows that people really care about the country, and they' willing to put themselves on the line to affected. host:our message seems to be resonating, because i've got lots of tweets on the disclosure of your donors. "i am very concerned about american crossroads of the u.s. chamr of commerce helping big business to purchase our government. when will you disclose your

donors?" and this twitter -- "who are the three largest donors in crossroads? what percentage of total to each of them donate?" guest: if you were to go to the federal election commission -- we are not public yet. but we could. you can go to the federal election commission website and find all of our donors from our large ones to our small ones, and below a certain level is not itemized under the federal election law. that is all out there for people to see. similar sorts of donors to the other organizations, but that is disclosed to the irs. the irs knows who we get money from, and if they see a problem, they can raise it, but that is not publicly disclosed. american crossroads discloses all of our contributions. we are not purchasing anybody. all of our money goes to

television stations that charge very high rates, as they are entitled to come for us to get our message out on the air about what we think is important. most of the issues that we're talking about, virtually all the issues that we talk about our issues that matter to everyday voters. they matter to everyday people, which is where our jobs are coming from, how we are going to pay our national debt, what is the huge government health care bill going to mean to me and my family. host: ne up is brian on the republican line. seek out the morning line. -- caller: good morning. you keep talking about the chamber of commerce and nafta. when i talked to the chamber of commerce, i ask them what do we speaking about how you expect this country to compete between

$1.50 an hour and $3.50 an hour in the auto industry. all i get are blank stairs because obviously we cannot compete. right now guys in michigan are looking to put up a plant on workers getting hired under gm and chrysler under the new tier system, being paid $13, $14 an hour. hardly anything to brag about in this economy. they would be hard to -- they would be hard pressed to save any money making $13, $14 an hour with limited benefits. we are born to put out the best batteries in the world. there is no doubt we are going to put out the best batters in the world. but there will be nothing to stop, once these factories -- they will take that model and take it to either mexico or china or elsewhere. we cannot compete at $1.50 and

$3.50 an hour, so until we get manufacturing at a decent wage, we will not have a middle class. if we do n have a middle class, it is just futile. we gave up the automobile industry as the sacrificial lamb to the world, and we are searching for it. guest: thank you, sir. those are concerns that a lot of people have in this country, and they are very reaconcerns. we have 15 million people in this country who do not have a job. we have now an unemployment rate that has been above 9% for over nine months. that is the european style unemployment rate, and that is unacceptable. i believe that this country, with its people and its universities and its no-how and its technology, can't compete wi anybody. we compete -- week -- can compete with anybody. the most important thing we need is a climate that will be in

favor of expanding business and will have an open and welcoming avant -- attitude based on lower regulation and lower taxes. right now in washington we have an administration and a congress that is viscerally cost of up to ostile toscerally high styl business. we are not improving that, and we need to desperately. hopefully, if we have some balance to the environment here in washington, some balance to the current agenda that is being pursued, we will be able to make some progress in that area. host: last call is from dallas, georgia. democratline. caller: good morning. i have a comment, and this has been on my mind for a long time.

it is amazing to me how the republicans are able to persuade the poor, uneducated people to vote republican and to even vote against their own interests. that is what they are doing, in my opinion. thank you. guest: i like to think that people can make good decisions for themselves, regardless of their educational or economic status. the second thing is, when we communicate on behalf of american crossroads, one of the things that we do is document every single thing that we say in each of our ads. a lot of it is corroborated from news sources and other places. certainly there are people that do not agree with it, sometimes they do. there are also able to criticize. there is a lot ofiscussion about what the facts are. i actually think that the more you have people communicating, the better informed people are.

you have candidates saying i am this kind of person, and they have a record that is contrary to that. i think it's good for the voters to know allhe facts. i am sure we do not always get it right, but that is our desire. regaless of what their education or economic status is, they can make good decisions for the allies. guest: we found an interview that ed gillespie gave in 2007, and he said that he was very concerned about all the outside groups weakening the party structure. guest: i think that is a concern, a concern that has less to do with where money flows and the federal election ls. there are a lot of people who express that very concerned with the mccain-find old law passed in 2001. but people said that if you -- eingold lawfine g

passed in 2001. the republican and democratic parties are institutions that have been part of the lifeblood of this country. if you hand that in, that money and that activity will go elsewhere. that in fact has happened. it has been happening for years on the democratic side with the union get out the vote activity. it is happening on the republican side. if the parties were less restrained, less regulated, you would see more activity this is.

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> tonight, the candidates' debates begin with a governors' debate, wi all the candidates on the debate invited to participate. here is our moderator. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> good evening. we welcomeou. we're very pleased to broadcast tonight the very first debate of

this year to feature all seven candidates on the ballot for governor of vermont. six are in attendance tonight. and they are -- brian dubie, the republican party nominee, cris ericson, from chester, on the united states marijuana ticket, ben mitchell of westminster, representing the liberty union party, emily patent, an independent. peter shumlin, the nominee of the democratic party, and dennis steele, an independent. everybody gets a shot at my question, answers at one minute. i will mix up the order as we go along. the follow-up will be at the moderator's discretion. everybody gets a minute at the end for closing statements. loral will keep the time. for our audience at home, we invite your feedback. log onto vpt.org, where we will

be hosting the on-line chat. now our first question. it is about leadership. how would vermont change with you in charge? brian dubie? >> i come from a family of six. i am the middle child. i learned being the middle child to bring people together. i honed the skills when i was chrman of my home town school board. i've learned, worked collectively with a fellow school board members. i served as for my's litani governor. i led a petition drive to strengthen our lives. i have chaired the govnor's homeland security advisory council and i have worked as a presiding officer of th vermont senate. the next governor is not going to nee -- e next governor is going to need to bring vermont

residents together. it will take people working collaborative laid to reform our regulatory process, to close the gap in this historic budget gap, to set aside partisanship and to acknowledge that our state, although it is great, there are a lot of things we can do to work to lower taxes, and that is the kind of leader i would be. >> chris erickson? >> i am showing leadership raising new issues that no other candidate is willing to raise, everyone from marijuana de- criminalization, which peter shumlin waivers on like a ship at sea, to issues that are raised in the united states, such as a citizen's right to file a citizen petition to the environmental protection agency to stop vermont nuclear energy, despite what the state legislature does and despite what federal court actions for mo may take to overcome and bypass the state legislature.

citizens can file a citizens' petition under 15 united states coach and not only put an end to vermont yankee of make certain that we never have a nuclear power plant in vermont ever again. i am raising issues that other candides are not talking about. it will hopefully get into some of these things today. it might bring new issues, and that is leadership. >> ben mitchell? >> thank you very much, from what public television, we are very grateful to be here. hi, nicholas and mosey. if you have to go to bed when this is over. hi, mom and dad. how would it change when i am governor? i have not raised a single penny. anything i say tonight will be what i truly believe. that i think makes me a very different candidate than many that we see. as a socialist, my agenda would

be to bring many of the industries that have been having their way with the citizens of the nine states back into the control of the people. my primary goal as governor would be to create a labor bubble. the value of labor has been seriously decreasing over the past 30 years, since 1980, and it is time for the people of the state to get arrays. >> thanks. emily peyton? >> what i would bring to the state is a method to restore the power of money to the people. right now we have a two-party system that is owned by corporate america. we're not seeing the will of the people carried out. when i am governor, i will be able to use specific means so that we can become recession- proof and we can return the power of the people to the government. i believe that the corporate government that we have right now is imperiling the earth, and

i am here because i want to stand up for stopping that. also, stopping war, because war is insanity. but i think that the people who carry out have insanity in themselves. i know there are measures which can take in vermont to stop and powering them. and i want to propose them. >> how would vermont change with you in charge, peter shumlin? >> the first is my experience. the second is my vision. when experience, here is where i come from. i was born and raised in vermont, but a small business. my brother and i bought it from our parents and we built it into a great success. i will be the first business person elected governor who has met the bottom line, created jobs, turned a profitable company into a more profitab company. i think it shows. one of the reasons the

government is in such trouble in my appeal re is we have not had a business person running the show and a long time. -- is in such trouble in my appeal your. people from all parties to run for election just get elected. i don't. i want. my job will be to get tough things done. i have proven as my senate leader that i can get tough things done. i have a vision of where to go and i am not afraid to take on the tough challenge we need to accomplish to put vermonters back to work. >> bennis steele -- dennis steele? >> brian dubie and the aristocratic shumlin do not get it. is not business as usual. the gold price is as high as it has ever been and we have problems that from what is not in charge of its destiny. even though they are elected governor, there will not be able to do the things that need to be done, getting control of our

food supply. that means getting control of our energy,etting control of our foreign policy and our monetary system. those are the things we need to do to control our own destiny, and that is what i will do. i will leave vermont to a peaceful populist revolution to libete ourselves from the federal government. it is what needs to be talked about and discussed logically. i will also call on the legislature to convene a special session to turn and -- to determine whether for much become an independent republic. >> a stock about the big challenge ahead. i-- let's talk about the big challenge ahead. none of you have laid out how you would close the whopping budget gap, at least $112 million. ben mitchell, couple of things that you think from what may have to do without, and our tax increases of any kind an option?

>> i totally disagree. you posed a question as if our only choices are to raise taxes or reduce services. in a business, you can raise prices or reduce the value of your product or look for alternative sources of income. as a socialist, i agree with family that we need to have a from what credit union, where rather than sending state budget resources down to the big casino in new york city, we should use that to create loans, create a socialized banking system that creates loans for small businesses and to get people out of the azeri system they are in now. if i were governor, i would pardon all nonviolent drug offenders, so you cannot incarcerate a drug user had a victimless crime in my administration, freeing up of that money immediately, creedon

and new tax base, and that is the end of my time. -- creating a new tax base, and that is the end of my time. >> cris, at might you cut, and what tax increases be an option? >> what i would do is immediately initiate a massive eb-5 federal program to create new jobs. when people are working, they are paying taxes. get more money into the budget rather than cutting. i would immediately create a lot of new jobs with the eb-5 program. you would have the budget money without cutting. we have not made adequate use of the program. if you have a family and need food stamps and don't apply, you are missing out. if you have a family and you need fuel aistance and you don't apply, you are missing out. the state of vermont is not adequately ing eb-5. it has been used by ski areas,

springfield hospitals. that allows wealthy foreigners to invest half a million dollars or more into new businesses. i will set up a goverr website to match up vermonters who want to start a new business with foreigners who want to create new businesses and i will create 3000, 4000 businesses per year in vermont. >> em peyton? >> our budget deficit can be simply to taraval the wall street sales tax which is already levied -- with a wall streetales tax. that will discourage the hedge fund trading and also pay down our deficit. there are other ways we can get income. we need a full hemp industry, because we needed for curative reasons and a way to not deplete the soil and grow something that will make our paper industry, clothing industry. hemp cures melanoma, cures

cancer. it will bring a lot of income to the state. that said, we also need an entire debate on this, just this topic. >> dennis steele, or would you cut, a our tax increases an option? >> i would cut the federal government out of our lives. for what needs to be an independent republic. here are some reasons why. we are an empire. we're spending a trillion dollars per year on a foreign policy that is ridiculous, that we need got to be spending that money. the u.s. government has a 12 trillion dollar debt. add in fannie mae and freddie mac, is $19 trillion. social security, medicare, medicaid, 80 trillion dollars. that represents $200,000 per household in the u.s. for months share of the u.s.

depends department -- defense department budget is $2 billion per year. we need to bring that money back to vermont and put it into agriculture, put it into schools, all the programs the people of vermont feel are important. >> senator shumlin? >> i am the only one on this panel has served on an appropriations committee, the bishop of budgets, voted on budgets, experienced matters. -- voted on budgets, administered budgets. at first, i would go after the $250 million of outside contracts and then on performance space contracts, which saves 10%, 12% per year. second, i would go after the numerous independent contractors that this administration has brought in as they decimatedhe state wake first -- work force. third, i will appoint

commissioners and secretaries who could speak for themselves and don't need spin people, press people at high pay cover them. finally, i disagree with brian on this. i will fight for the middle class, not give tax breaks to 1400 vermonters toake the most money so i can cut budgets for everybody else. >> brian dubie? >> we're talking about balancing next year's budget. i will ask my opponent to be responsible with my proposals. we will have to make tough choices. one thing i can make a commitment is public safety would be a pretty, as with programs like doctor dinosaur, protecting seniors. those are priorities of our state and would be a priory of my administration. i would ctinue to expand, like we're doing with performance base contract and under challenges for change. it was a try partisan initiative.

that is copter braziel, but it is doing what it was intended to do. -- is copter braziel, but it is doing what it was intended to do. it is a difficult conversation, but we have to do that. we have to think from going from defined benefits to defined contributions. we have to do with families are doing across the state, putting spending on a sustainable trajectory like families. we will protect the most portable and make tough decisions. -- we will protect the most vulnerable and make tough decisions. >> we have heard from senator shulman he will provide a program offering free preschool care to 3-d 4-year-old. what you think of this idea? >> i would like to see an increase in funding for home schooling. it is the home schoolers who are

burning up the independent thinkes, paying for education twice. yes, i think the people whare having to work these less than livable wes need to have health -- help break up their children because they don't have any free time to take them. i am not a complete advocate for sending your children out early in their lives to be schooled by the federal government. so the conjoined machine and learn how to kill people. we need to be teaching peace. just sending them to school is notnough. we need to listen to what they want to learn. they want to learn how to save our planet, how to stop polluting, how to live in peace, how to get along. that is not being taught in schools. >> what do you think, lieenant governor dubie?

>> i have compiled a list. there is a number of ideas. i asked myself on a number of occasions, senator shumlin has said he is not into taxes, but list of new programs he is on record for supporting is quite extensive and would require significant new funding. i have proposed an initiative to address the need for universal pre-k. i talk about trying to balance the fact that we're going to lose another 8500 students and our k-12 program. we don't spend enough money as a state in higher education and we could make more investments in pre-k. it presents opportunities as we lose children going forward to rebalance the allocation of resources. i also propose tax credits as part of my job plan.

i encourage people to review that in detail. >> dennis, what you think about pre-k? >> we're missing the point as to what the real problem as. if we're going to teach our kids what is right and wrong, we need good leaders and vermont. that leader has to address the fact that there are 6000 u.s. dead soldiers in iraq and afghanistan, 100,000 wounded. u.s. soldiers committing suicide at higher rates than at any rate since 1980. also, 20% of all suicides are made up of u.s. soldiers i am for locally funded schools, locally controlled schools, bringing the control back to the communities where the to work with the parents and the communities and teachers to come up with their curriculum. if we want to address this problem, we have to address $2

billion. that will save the programs and put more in place. we have to do a lot with that money. it is important have a leader in place who is willing to do that. >> senator swmen? >> let me talk about w it is so important we know that every dollar spent on education saves $7 to $14 later on. more importantly, for about the money, let's talk about our kids, our most precious resource. we know if they get an early start, the earlier we get to them, the better chance they have at success. successful kids make. employees, do well in school, and do well on the job force. that is the one of the ways we create jobs, having trained workers t work well, reid, do all the things we expect them to do. finally, women and for my make harder choices between the job they want, the child care that afford. let's get it done.

having said that, i never said in the first year, in these tough budget times -- i am a business person. i have a stand reality. i did not say we would spend $32 million next january. i said it woud cost $32 million for vermont to give every 4 and 5-year-old education. we spend $40 million on locking up non-violent criminals. that is how the math works. >> they say you can tell everything about a culture about how they treat their elderly and their young, i have to sort of recused myself. i'm a language arts teacher. we have a big harvest festival to mark. please come check it out. it is awesome. i spent the past year being under-employed as an educator. it is hard a job as an educator, and we need to spend more mon on the state level to get our work force employed, to drive up

wages. at fort too many years, -- 42 many years, workers in vermont have had to take a backseat to the banks and other people plan with our money in the financial industry, and we're constantly talking about some of the opponents who prefer to spend $40,000, $5000 and to spend 10 does not pre year to educate them. weeed to invest in our populace, our people, and it is obscene to do otherwise. >> question about a new program to guarantee early childhood education. >> my campaign slogan is please, people lovingly educating everyone andaving everyone. i don't see any problem with jacking up the tax on alcoholic beverages to help pay for it. i don't see any problem with jacking up the tax on cigarettes to pay for it, just as long as we write a law that says the

increased tax on alcohol and cigarettes is guaranteed to go to the preschool program. we know for a fact that preschool helps kids alter their lives. preschool puts kids ahead. also, speeding tickets. i think we can put a tax on speeding tickets and just say, look, obviously cannot read the sign that says the speed limit, so that proves we need to start kids earlier in school. >> thank you very much. i want to stay with the education subject for another question. this has to do with getting control over the rising cost of education, which in recent years has consumed a greater share of all available tax dollars, even as enrollment has shrunk. one r email, which at this question from joel miller, who wants to know, while some towns school andleagustubbornly clino

administered of consolidation, please address your plan for dealing with this issue. what i would like to do is have a discussion about money. all of our issues are about where we will have enough money to do the things we want to do. there is not aroad understanding of what money is and is not an award comes. remember, the money is a system of faith. there are ways that would create money in vermont. a vermont unit of exchange would be very useful, and i know this question is specifically designed to talk about the education. however, we are going to the core of how we create a monetary system in this debate about the banks we can create that are already successfully done and other states. once we do that and we create a

monetary syste that benefits for mott, we will esseially secede from wall street's and start going to a place where we are recession-proof and tax- free. i don't know how i can tell you this in two minutes. you have to take time to learn what i have to share. >> dennis steele, how do we realize the savings? how we deal with this iss of school consolidation? >> we have to turn control back to the locals, locally funded schools. they will be able to live within their means of what they can afford to do. back in the peak of vermonts freedom, we had 2500 schools. in my hometown, i think there were close to eight. now there are zero in kirby. i would like to give back to the small schoo that we can afford, that the community can take care of, and that they feel meets their needs for that community.

i would also like to take the time to ask colonel dubie if you would be willing to commit to bring home the fefrom not national guard if he was governor? >> we will offer brian dubie a chance. what about this question about school consolidation. it is first reading joel miller and others in vermont. >> i will be there to welcome our soldiers home. i pray for their safety every day and every night and i pray for their families. as for mark's next governor, i'm very concerned about their safety -- as for my's next governor, i'm very concerned about their safety. i appreciate your concern. this issue has gone all the way to the supreme court, as you are probably familiar with, as potential commander-in-chief. it would be my concern to bring our soldiers home as soon as possible, consistent with the law. >> we will give you ext time

to get back to the question about school consolidation. >> i cut my teeth at the local level. i served my committee's five years as school board chair, six years on the school board. at 60, in some ways, we need a funding mechanism that is really driven by atate formula, most of which we cannot explain. school board members are coused, the general public is confused. we would reconnect local control. we have spending right now that is not sustainable. we have the highest property taxes in the country. i would look for ways that could put education spending on a sustainable trajectory. we will lose another 8500 children and our state. i would work with our educators. i married an educator. i would work with our principles, with our superintendents, and as governor

i would convene a conversation of how we didn't force, reinforce local control as we strive to make sure all our resours to when the classroom and build government structures consistent with that party. >> senator shumlin? >> let me tell you what i will not do. i will not destroy local control, which is what brian's proposal would do. this is an area where we respectfully disagree. he has proposed 2% mandated cap on school spending which undermines town meeting, local control. i think it is an unprecedented grab of power from local communities that decimates the towns. i will do that. this is what i will do. i will give incentives to local communities, property tax incentives, to decide locally where they might consolidate. i want to say another word, a governor has to be have to look forward. eight years ago, 10 years ago, one of our biggest challenges

was where we put all the kids? that is because we had so many jobs. employers biggest problem was to find employees, which means and people were here, they had babies, what school. if i am governor, i will create jobs. that is what i'm doing all my life. when we create jobs, young people will come and children come with them. i don't buy the assumption this is a permanent problem for vermont. >> ben mitchell, how do you persuade a reluctant towns to consolidate, or would you like to see that happen? >> absolutely not. my daughter goes to the westminster west school which has an enrollment of 18 this year because many students have been moving to the center school. there is a lot of pressure on the town to close the school. it is amazing little school, movies made about it, and is two minutes fro my house. my children ride their bikes to the school. they want to close it because they felt it would save

$200,000. there is no evidence to back up. the research said by consolidating supervisory districts, you could save money by having fewer superintendents, having fewer hide paid professionals, but consolidating schools does not save that much money. at the people who donated the land for the school to be built on donated with the assumption -- i would say whoever is asking these questions, look at your priorities. we are nickel and diming the schools while we are giving a ig and lehman brothers or whoever, huge subsidies to the nuclear power industry. it is obscene. what kind of culture have we become? >> chris erickson? -- cris ericson? >> homeschooling is legal in vermont. get rid of as many superintendents and been destroyed is as possible. we don't need all of these layers of bureaucracy, and make

a deal with teachers for children from kindergarten or preschool up through and including sixth grade. the only things that are important are those years are math, science, reading, writing, the basics. they don't need anything more than the basics. they need to have the basic sound ground in those years. we need to make a deal with teachers, if you take six students, you get 10,000 less per student per take six into your home, that is $60,000. we need to make many, many, many, many schools similar to home schooling, with just one teacher, six students, and the teacher gets paid it $10,000 per student, $60,000, no administrators, no superintendents. cut them out. >> i just want to y this. i support our troops. i was proud to launched

operation holiday homecoming last holiday season when our troops were getting left at the base in indiana. we raised over 300,000 less to do that. the governor has to be right the first time. publicly opposed the war in iraq before it was popular. i oppose this war in afghanistan. as governor, i would use the force of the governor's office to tell the president of the united states whether it is a democrat or republican -- have both made mistakes on this -- i believe as governor you are making a wrong judgment. >> anybody else? quickly. >> could you also say the state of vermont would stand up to anybody who does not want to send their federal taxes until the federal government stops investing in war and stops being so war profiteerg? couldn't you do that? why wouldn't you do that? >> one does not have the authority to do that as

governor. what i would do is make very clear, as a voice for vermonters, that when either republicans or democrats make the wrong judgmt about where we should be fighting and why, i will speak up. >> is fighting ever -- >> this goes back to the fact of trolling for months destiny. these guys want to be governor and they don't have charged over the national guard. we can bring them home if they want to. it's the political will of the people to make it happen. i am that leader. i am the one that these guys are not willing to take the stance and call for four months national guard to come home. -- and calle for vermont's national guard to come home. >> this aristocrat thing -- >> you inherited it from your parents. >> colonel bibby? >> i have already said what i

needed to say. i have served in the national guard two decades. i served in the air force reserve. these are important issues to all vermonters. i am running for governor. in reference to senator shumlin's memory of the 90's growing population, the fact is we have lost 12500 students in the last decade. as the result of a declining population. at the same time, our pre-k population went down, the school staffing went up 22%. we have the lowest student teacher ratio in e country. we have to talk about this for the next decade. we will lose another 8500 children. we have to be realistic, and leadership requires us to make decisions. >> a quick rebuttal? ben? >> i am against the unprovoked

invasion of sovereign countries. i promise not to invade new hampshire if i'm gornor. realistically, it is obscene that our values are such we' talking about cutting schools and education when we're spending billions and billions and billions of dollars as a society to invade foreign countries. i was against the war in afghanistan from the beginning and would support any effort to end the unprovod invasion of other countries. >> cris? >> as far as i understand that law, the national guard offer my receives funding from the state and federal funding. as long as they are receiving federal funding, you have to follow federal law. that is all the risk to it. -- that is all there is to it. >> we have six of the seven candidates on the ballot on november 2. we invite your comments and

questions online at vpt.org, where we are standing by to host the on-line chat. our xt question has to do with health care. this was submitted on the telephone. >> if vermont went to a single payer health care system so small businesses no longer had the burden of providing health insurance to their employees, does that mean tax payers would no longer have the burden to pay for teachers andovernment employees'health insurance? thank you. >> senator shumlin? >> i have proposed and will work tirelessly to try to enact a single payer health care system for vermont. the reasons you outlined are the reasons we need the plan. we cannot continue to spend $1 million more per day as a state than we spent the day before on

health care. it will bankrupt us. at second, it is driving a school costs. it is the biggest challenge for school boards, shifted on to tax it. property-tax payers. it is forcing small businesses who want to thrive not to be able to survive. it is their biggest rise in cost. i have a plan. brian says it cannot be achieved because we need waivers. i will work hard with senator sanders and senator leahy to get those waivers. i think we can get it done. we have to get this cost under control, stick with the current team with brian dubie and year cost will go up. goith me and we will get costs under control, beat the rest of the country to doing health care right. >> brian dubie? can he pull this off? >> he is good ataking promises.

that is at least in excess of the billion dollars according to the general assembly study committee. i will make promises i can keep. from what has been rated the healthiest in the nation three years and a row. what i would make a promise to vermonters is we would continue to expand the blueprint for health. 70% of our health care dollars are addressing chronic diseases. i am excited that one of the spires of excellence is in this area, trying to use leveraging the academia, professionals to make a difference as it relates to health care delivery in our state. i would also leverage the federal legislation and the creation of exchanges and tax credits like they're hoping to use to achieve the goal of lowering costs for small businesses, and universal access across the state. those are promises i can keep

and i would like to do. >> what do you thi, dennis steele? >> he is talking about getting waivers to get single payer health carerom the feds. it shows these guys have no power over the state of vermont. they need to have charged to take for mott and its own destiny. that is the issue we're dealing with. -- they need to have charged to take vermont in its own destiny. colonel dubie is not willing to ask for the return of diverthe vermont national guard. it is a great plan and would probably work if we were an independent republi in charge for on destiny. we could just do it. let's make it happen. >> ben mitchell? >> i am a socialist and i have been advocating socialized medicine every time iave been a candidate for any office. i think it is funny that some of

my colleagues here laugh when the talk about a single payer system and talk about an unrealistic promise when rest of the world, the rest of the industrializ world is laughing at us. we pay twice as much as any other industrialized country and we cannot insure everybody. who are the insurance companies? insurance, finance, is all one big thing. we send them our monthly payments. what do you say to a plan that says you pay $200-$500 per month, $5,000 per year, plus $5,000 deductible. so if you have any sickness, you are paying for, plus giving insurance companies 5000 less per yr, and if you get sick a drop b. we need socialized -- and if you get sick they drop you. we need socialized medicine. >> cris ericson? >> i agree ptially.

when you go to school in vermont, you don't pay insurance. your school is not billing you for insurance to send your child to school. you pay taxes and taxes pay for the school. you don't buy sool insurance. you pay taxes a the taxes paid for the school. let's pay taxes to vermont, to the states for basic health care clinics with a very defined amount of basic health care. basic health care hospitals with a very clearly defined amount of what you can expect and not expect when you go there, just like a school, and the rest of it, leave it to capitalism, the free market enterprise. i just want to say that obesity is one of the major health problems and vermont. it causes adult onset diabetes and heart aacks and strokes. i have one idea to reduce obesity. i want swimming trials. the majority of lakes and ponds -- let me have a moment.

the majority of surfaces of lakes and ponds are devoted to motorboats, canoes. and fishermen. swimmers do not have equal rights to surface water. we need swimming trials -- trails. >> emily patent? >> i have doctors and my family, so i know that insurance and law did not belong in the healing practices. they make them appear. we also need to look at poverty as a health issue. we need to remove the stress of poverty. i am proposing a vermont unit exchange. also, if we have organic farming, and organic food on every table, we will reduce our problems with health.

mandated contributions to private insurance corporations, in my mind, are illegal and criminal. we also need to fund natural healing and we also need to take responsibility for our bodies and knowing ourselves. we cannot keep externalizing it to t doctor in the white coat. >> i want to follow up, brian dubie said this is a billion dollar program he issues that figure in advertising as well. do you dispute is a billion dollar proposition? where does the money come from? >> brian is running a campaign of fear. i'm running a campaign of opportunity. it is 8 $5 billion program. that is what we're spending on health care and state of vermont. the questions simple, the believe the federal bill will help you out? if so, go with brian. if y want a governor who has the courage to do everything in

his power, not a promise, but a plan, to get what i am talking about past, go with me. why is it so important? stick with brian's plan and you have another million dollars per day for the next eight year, roughly $2.5 billion hidden tax on every small business, every person living in the state. this is the biggest tax increase in vermonters have faced. imagine this, sebody is running for governor and say i will increase your taxes $1 million per day. that is what he has just done and said. i have a plan fix it. it is $5 billion. we only pass it if it costs less by getting the insurance company profits out of the picture and using technology to drive a system that is affordable and treats health care as a right and not a privege. >> brian, why don't you respond? >> acta 60 is from the top down.

this is doing to health care top-down management from the capital. this is an analysis of what it would cost. we are a state of 620,000 for minors. 25% of our population starts at hitchcock where there receive medical care. i am trying to be realistic. i have not yet mandate business person who has said if we enacted a single payer system that would be a boon for business. i have no question about the rhetoric. it is the reality. my promises, i can keep. universal. kay, single payer health care for a state that has some of the highest income taxes in the country, wneed to figure out how to lower taxes and not make promises we cannot keep. >> dennis? peter is not willing to bring home the vermont national guard.

maybe if our governor could stand up to the federal government to bring our troops home and close all the bases, 1000 basis, we would have a trillion dollars back to the state to make that program. colonel dubie, with top-down management, what are we under with washington. --n't that top-down manage i top-down management? >> we need to look at the states that have gotten it right. north dakota has 600,000 people. back in 1919, they created their own state bank. now what do they have? fdic insured, the only state in the union that had job growth and ince growth. we put that here in vermont, would add $4 billion and the treasury. then we make the loans for the

things we want to see and the interest comes back to vermont. that way we can fund. the doctors andurses who want to go to school, an exchange for their service in the community. we have to force ourselves from the federal corporate banking. >> i have not heard anybody say the will propose a tax to pay for single. . >> a socialist finance all the money going to credit cards and the large wall street firms is coming into the state of vermont. it is using t money productively. at the same time, the issue of health care is an artificial shortage. if we triple the number of doctors we say in exchange you have to work for the state and a

living wage, $40,000 per year, they have to work for us for five years and be plastic surgeons and whatever. then we have a community-based health care system where they work for the state. it saves money. and bring more people into the state. >> quickly. >> as a small-business person, when i get the bill every year, it goes up 10%, 20%, 30%. two years ago, it is 30% for our company. that is a tax increase, money out of your pocket. we have doctors designing a system that would give us the option to pay for it that the next governor has the opportunity to run with it. can we design a system, and i said we must, that contains cost so we're not spending a

million dollars more tomorrow than today. i think we can do it. despite what bryan says, it is not a promise, as a plan. we need a governor who is proven getting tough things done, has the vision to take us there, and takes on the real challenges. this is the top challenge for vermont. >> i have to move on because we have a lot more questions. >> how are y going to pay for it? >> we're going to create a bank and the interest -- >> is there a tax in mind? >> we are paying for it right now. if he said to my business, peter, have a deal for you, we figured out how to contain costs, you have no more increases the next five years, we would say, wow, how fast can we sign up? systemt be a wash, this everywhere else in the world reduces cost. this is a cost question, not a tax question. >> military spending is the problem. >> let' move on.

we have some good questions. this is no easier. this comes from russ, "if the vermont legislature passes a death with dignity bill, similar to oregon, giving terminally ill patients the freedom and choice to make their own and of life decisions, would you sign it? >> yes. >> yes, and i will tell you why. i met a woman recently you asked if i supported and of life choices. she said i am suffering from cancer. i have cancer that is very painful. i have outlived my physicians, i have outlived almost everyone who takes care of me in terms of where i should be right now. i know the next, the last two, three weeks of my life will be extraordinarily difficult and

painful. i don't want government to stand in her way. oregon has figured out a smart, careful way to deal with this. i think it is between the very terminally ill patient and her provider. i believe that about choice as well. brian disagrees with me on both of these. i feel strongly that government should stay out of the way of really important personal decisions. >> emily peyton? would you sign such a bill? >> i would, and i would remind everyone that spit is eternal. also, i want to go back to the heal-care issue. we have to do education about what corporate food does to our health, but as pertain does. we have to alert people and say they need to be eating organic all the time and we have to make it affordable for everybody. it is a right. >> ben mitchell?

>> i think it is a free country and people should be free to care for themselves, with dr. care especially. >> cris ericson? >> i would let it pass into law without signing it. >> why? >> because of religious feelings. i respect other people's religious feelings. i understand that very recently in great britain they finally made it druidism an official religion. they worship the sun, the stars, spirits, whatever. nonprofits in great britain can collect money as druids. i respect other people's religiouchoices, but for me i would not sign it and let it pass into law without signing it. >> brand to be? -- brian dubie? >> we share our concerns about this type of legislation.

i would make a commitment about signing this. i would be inclined not to sign it. this is one of the reasons we shared at a press conference. people in the dibility community feel it would put their members at risk, especially when you contemplate a single payer health care system and tight budgets. they expressed concerns, real concerns. what i would do is expand the work that the attorney general has done and the department ld has done on making sure that care is available to vermonters in stages of life. this is not an academic situation. i have been in the end moments of both my parents and watch them struggle. i joined members of the out of the darkness walk to support community for people who experience suicide. the suicide rates in oregon are up significantly as a result of

the legislation. that would be a concern, sending the wrong message to people contemplating suicide. >> a >> another email question goes like this. as vermont becomes more diverse, what would your strategy is be as governor to address harassment in public schools and racial disparity in our criminal justice system? >> now that i have time, i am curious what percentage of the money being used to fund the attack ads on television is coming from the insurance industry. because they are being defende vehemently by you and you are taking the money and using it to attack people on rsonal grounds. it would be nice to be able to know that, but we cannot know that. what what i do to keep people from fleeing each other? -- from bullying each other? in the past 30 years, we have

seen a decrease -- median income has decreased. every time the economy got hot enough to actually increase our wages, they would raise interest rates, and meanwhile lowering interest rates to give us a lot of access to free capital so we could get easy money from credit-card. then we borrow and a jack up prices and sold off to the fund took industries. don't believe people. don't do it. we need strong teachers? don't cut the budget on education. >> dennis steele? warfare.end class it will have a better society, people make money, people get food. since 2007, 43% of americans were living paycheck to paycheck. 2000, it is 49%.

2009, 61%. a 2010, 77%. we have to look at the underlying issues. the problem is 10% of the people in the u.s. are controlling 9 of the wealth. this is class warfare. it stems into other issues. we have to continually address that and make sure we understand berating vermont is the only way to stop it from happening. >> what about bullying in schools, emily peyton? >> you see this symbol? there is. you know how we have volunteer fire departments. we will work on a volunteer , people trained in mentor ship, chaperoning, and these people could also be reimbursed through the vermont unit of exchange. i will dohis whether i am

governor or not, because our police force is working they should be rewarded for promoting peace. they should get higher salaries for the fewer crimes they have in their communities. we have to ship the paradigm. everybody wants to suppo two- party candidates. i think we need to look first at what creates -- what is the lowest common denominator. what causeracial disparity and financial disparity? how many parents looked up to barack obama despite his color? what we are really looking at is more a financial disparity than

a racial disparity when it comes to school children. if they are looking down at another kid, it is because the kid is poorer or comes from a poor family. in the criminal justice system, the rich person does not go to prison in vermont. the poor ones do. it is not so much racial disparity in the criminal justice system, it is financial disparity. people do not get it -- rich people do not go to prison in remark -- in a rut. -- in vermont. >> boast blying and racial harassment are big issues in vermont. we need to talk about it. we need to go into sools and talk about discrimination and what is causing that. i think howard dean was the last governor and the example of the kind of governor i would be on this. he devoted a whole address to

racial equality. he went out to the schools and talked about it to kids. that took courage. that is what i would do as governor. second, there are young kids are learning to play cooperatively without bullying each other. the sooner you get kids into a situation where they are cooperating and learning together, the lt bullying he willave. >> brian dubie? >> my kid was in a school where bullying lead to suicide. this is not some academic thing. as chairman of my hometown school board, i accompanied the father who lost his soin a series of visits across the state talking about his experience. taking the great purge from that experience and try to make a difference in sharing that difference across the state.

i had done that. the people who think this is a money or class issue, this is a issue across all our states. it transcends the issue of bullying -- bullying transcends gender, race, and money. it is something we need to be cognizant about. we do need to talk about it. we need to educate people about it. part of our curriculum helps teachers and helps bring parents into our schools. the only way we can address it is to bring it out into the open and talk about it. i would do that as a vermont's next governor. >> this has to do with bullying. we need to look at what the united states government is doing around the world and may be addressed the issue with our children. they see us becoming be bullied around the world by occupying other countries and killing people in other countries. maybe if we stop that our children might learn something from us. >> it can also tell them to stop

watching television. >> but not tonight, please. [laughter] you're watching the vermont television gubernatorial debate. we are here until the top of the hour. we have a studio audience here. we invite your participation at home. we have six of the seven candidates on the ballot who are here in the studio with us. one, dan feliciano, was invited but he did not show up tonight. i want to continue with brian dubie for a moment. let me address this at all. we have not had a pro-life governor since roe vs. wade. that makes some vermonters nervous. would you address concerns that you might be too conservative on social issues for moderate voters? >> in a country, i think there are 25 per life governors.

the abortion issue was settled in the state of vermont before it was settled on the federal level. i was a pro-life lieutenant governor. my agenda is to create jobs. that is what my campaign is all about. some of the things i have done as a pro like lieutenant governor is join the secretary of state in agitating for baby safe legislate -- in advocating for baby safe legislation. vermont right for life came together and found common ground with the pro-choice groups. i have worked with project family to promote adoption. i have advocated for state allocations of dollars for pro adoption initiatives. that is the kind of work i have done. that is t kind of common ground, common-sense work i will do as a moderate governor. >> i do not think tt the government should be compelling people to have children. i think it is a complete

overstepped its authority. what it demonstrates is what i find t be a very frightening, 4-right movement in this country, which is bringing a lot of divisive social issues to the forefront. we talk about bullying, what about radio and television personalities who are whipping up racial hatred? they are using racial hatred and a xenophobic agenda to raise money and raise their political interest. it frightens me. this is a political agenda which is really masking a very hard, economic agenda of the extremely rich billionaires' and millionaires who donate to their campaigns. these are the people who actually are finding the republican campaigns. although you may not stand up for your rights and say that you want to promote -- >> is brian dubie too

conservative to be governor of the state? >> i am really concerned about this issue. brian and i disagree on this one. i am pro-choice, is pro-life. i am the father of daughters. when bryant says, "let's talk about jobs, not this issue." i take that to mean that every woman in vermont -- this is why it matters to have a pro-choice governor. 18 states separate legislation on the governor's dennis limiting a woman's right to choose. brian would sign that legislation. in the case of rape and incest, bryan said he is pro-life. i think that is not in keeping with most of the vermont voters values. it matters. it matters deeply.

for the conservative cream -- supreme court it matters. i will dend a woman's right to choose. this is a decision between a womaand her provider. i think it is a real issue that we should be aware of. >> once again, spirit is eternal. if you are going to be right to life, what about when babies grow up to be 18 and the poverty trap? there's not enough money for them to get educated so they go over to the war machine over there. i find it offensive that you, peter and you, brian, talk is it your the only people in the race to are going to win. i find it offensive that the press not covered all of these candidates.

>> if you have equal billing tonight, emily. on topic though, what we get to cris ericson. >> vermonters are very divided on this topic. in spoken to vermonters who are 100% againstbortion. does not matter if the woman was raped. that is god's child and she does not feel comfortable with her baby, put it up or adoption. i have also spoken with vermonters who are concerned that there is no anned parenthood in windsor county. one gentleman told me that he gave a whole lot of money to planned parenthood and then they packed up a month or so later and left vermont and moved over to new hpshire which is too far away for a teenager without a car from springfield

to go to. in southern vermont, people have extreme opinions. they are totally one way or totally lean the other way. personalspect people's views. >> the question is if whether he is too concerned with social issues. >> i would like to be governor of vermont because i would like to decentralize the programs back to the local levels. that would make it more responsible and give the people of the committee's eir own -- in charge of the programs in their area. that is the way switzerland does it. they have won the best health careystems in the world. the some ofhe best scols. they have a currency that is backed mostly by goals. -- mostly by gold. >> the question -- you can rebut

anything youave heard, or should we move on? >> this is an issue -- i am running on jobs. that is the issue that is important for vermonters. i met a woman in the northeast kingdom who said the social issue is a mom or aad might lose their job. that is my focus on began to seize the -- that is my focus on my candidacy. that would be my commitment. >> given the government's race -- given the governor's raced today, the former governor essentially said it would be dangerous for one party -- referring to the democratic party reject -- to control the governor's office. he right? >> he is right if you are a

republican, i guess. no, he is wrong. let me tell you why. i have served under both. let me tell you the difference. under howard dean, this is what happened. we had on ending employme. as i mentioned, the biggest problem was where we find workers. we were ending surpluses. we passed the biggest tax cuts in vermont history. we built up the rainy day fund. we passed doctor dinosaur giving every child in the vermont health care. we had unending prosperity. under this team we have lost over 10,000 private-sector jobs, the middle class has lost their and comes -- have lost their incomes. if you go with split government that is what you get. if you're a governor who will

build jobs and get things done, send one to the legislature that would get things done. >> vermonters salt what things can be done. the last legislative session led the charge to override the governor's veto. they raise new taxes and impose the new budget over the governor's veto. when peter talks about getting things done, he has been in charge of super majorities in the vermont senate. the governor vetoed two pieces of legislation. he could have gotten done what everyone did to get done. this has been a national recession. in some way vermonters have been served well. we have an unemployment rate that other states would envy. a 6% unemployment rate. can we do a better job? absolutely. i think vermonters are looking for a balanced government. my candidacy and my service as vermont's next governor would be

all about finding ballots. there are eight -- finding balance. there are a lot of people who feel they are not being served by the legislature. i would strike a balance and serve the people of vermont. >> i thi we need a independent to be governor. they can work bedsides of the party. they will not be loyal to their party system. i think it is important for that to happen. i feel that i am the person to do that job. i would like to be your governor. let me bring it back to the northeast kingdom. lydell plant is completely closed. it is only 10 years old. jobs in the northeast kingdom are important, but we do not need a military industrial complex jobs. we be sustainable jobs. we need to realize and decentralize our lives realize

the economy to make it better for all of the people in the northeast kingdom. >> ben mitchell? >> this election is about jobs. i do not need to judge somebody around with me it because i had been unemployed in the recent past. on the way it is like to try to pay for wood and try to get your life together before winter. it is really hard. yet meanwhile, there is all of this huge amounts of money coming into the state to pay for political advertising, to manipulate the voters into something else. my question is where is the money coming from and where is it going? like that. the reason why is i know it is hard to make a living here. you know it is hard to make a living here. i work today. i had sneak out of the meeting to get up here. i have to work tomorrow.

i had a job where i actually have to show up. most vermonters do. to come up here and say it is about job, you have to recognize what it is like to look -- what is like to work for a living in the state. >> any danger of having one party controlled the house, the senate, and the governor's opposite? >> i do not think the democrats are any better than the republicans. we need to have an independent person who is not owned by corporate politics. the minimum wage -- when somebody worked all their hours in the week, they still come back without a wage. that is slave wages. what iave in mind is an exchange to make up the difference so we can give people the dignity of when they have worked all the best hours of the week that they come home with enough value to be able to have an honorable living.

people may say that you are not about to create -- allowed to create a currency. california has already done it. they have done it as a promissory note. if the democrats are in control, that would be a totalitarian government. a totalitarian government is completely illegal under federal law. it is also dangerous to just have democrats and republicans because they are both getting the campaign funding from the same corporations and from the same defense companies. if you, for example, go to the ftc website and look at the list of all the defense companies, they are giving practically equally to the democrats and republicans. the democrats are so homogenized and so pasteurized and they talk so often about meeting at the middle of the

aisle, they are hardly any different than the republicans. >> one more question because we are running a little short on time. will keep this to 30 seconds if we could. as far as personal character, share with us -- our mothers told us to learn from our mistakes. some -- what mistakes that each of you made in youradult lives and what did you learn from them? ben mitchell? >> it is possible i may a mistake when i was asked to run for governor. i am going to be really tired tomorrow. [laughter] i have made a lot of mistakes. i think it is interesting that we are doing this personal integrity ticket and beating each other up again. i do not think we should be beating each other up over personal integrity issue >> emily peyton?

>> i made the mistake on the last debate where i did not answer the question because i wanted to shift the conversation. i felt that i should have honored the fact that i was being asked that question. i make mistakes all the time. it is true failure and learning how to reh for the better answers that i had this journey for. >> was mistakenly made in your adult life and what have you learned from them? >> the biggest mistake in terms of politics has been not to be clear on why i am who i am. i am was born dyslexic. i learn differently. as a result i had to defend myself with my verbal skills. i think i sometimes come off as slicker than i am in my heart. i used my mouth to get to grade school when i could not read. the result is that i can be fast with my tongue.

i think i shoul be more honest with people about the fact that that is why i am because that is the way i was born. i am a humble, decent person who is doing their best for vermont. >> i want to tell a story about a friend of mine. when i was young i took a matchbox cars and cap that car until i was an adult. i remember pulling back are out when i moved back to vermont with my family. i gave the car back to him. there were tears in his eyes. it was the wrong thing to do. did not dwell on negativity. >> if i have made a mistake it is doing a lot of things and try to balance being a father of four children. i served as a colonel in the air force reserve. i am proud of my service in the national guard and the air force

reserve. i served as a captain for american airlines. i served as vermont lieutent governor for many years. i have juggled the responsibilities of hing four children in high school in the past several years, and children in college. if i have made a mistake it is juggling family responsibilities. >> thank you. our time is short and whave just been up for closing statements. we drew an order before we started here tonight and each will get one minute beginning with ben mitchell. >> we talked about finishes but there are a lot of issues we have not covered. how many of us are in trouble of closing [unintelligible] how many of us are in -- are in favor of public ownership of electrical companies. how many of us have smoked pot

in our lives. raise your hand. how about legalizing it? how many are in favor of that? could it ready for the state. what about don't ask don't tell? let's end it. institutional discrimination? note? the mosque near ground zero? how many think they should be allowed to build that? how about redistribution of wealth? the reason the economy is the way it is is because there has been a huge up load of wealth. it is time to redistribute. people of vermont need a raise. >> dennis still. >> i am a u.s. army veteran. i am the father of two large children. dan is right on. we are in class warfare.

10% of the people control 90% of the wealth. that is wrong. that is what we have to change. we are going to have to begin liberating ourselves from the federal government. we need a governor that will be able to look at every dollar coming in and see if there is a way we can send it back with a note attached to the congressional delegation to bring back the vermont national guard and solve our own problems here locally. that liberation process will become much easier to do. we will take control of our food, our energy, our foreign- policy, which will be a form policy of not intervention, and our monetary supply. thank you very much. >> peter someone. >> i want to put vermonters' back to work. i do t want to be governor so badly that i will undermine anyone's character or tell untruths about their positions to get there. to get there.