question in the context of the larger middle east strategy. we face serious issue with israel security, stability in a very hostile neighborhood. the folly that we engaged in it in iraq unfortunately emboldened iran, and would have a serious issue that we're dealing with in a very responsible way with significant sanctions with iran. the arms sale to the saudis is frankly a counterweight more to iran than anything else. i think it is critical that we maintain israel's qualitative military edge. i have been in consultation with members of the israeli government and i believe that you are not hearing much opposition coming from the israelis because they understand what we are selling f-16's to the saudis, that is their hedge against iran. we are maintaining israel's qualitative edge both in terms of military and corporate very

significantly with intelligence to make sure that it is real security and stability is not threatened and that as much stability as we possibly >> i think with respect to the sale to saudi arabia that we should ask hard questions of saudi arabia. i would want assurances from the saudi government that the arms of we sell to them and the equipment that we sell to them will not get in the wrong hands. with that i certainly would say i want very strong assurances as to say that those who should not have these weapons that saudi arabia will protect them and make sure that does not happen. >> we are going to go to a another viewer e-mail question.

barbara says she is concerned about the future of social security. recently some politicians have been talking about cutting our benefits and raising the retirement age and the thing that money towards reducing the deficit. would you consider cutting social security benefits or raising the retirement age? >> i think it is very important that we preserve social security, but we should not be doing what politicians like congressman hodes as been doing and that is robbing our trust funds. those funds are in a deficit. we need to make sure we do not continue to use it to pay for our general budget. i have met so many recipients of social security in our state. we should not make changes to those who are in the system or near retirement. to the younger generations, we have to address and reform social security or social security will not be there. to do that we need to have an honest discussion with all ideas

on the table to make sure that we protect that for the younger generation while still protecting the seniors right now you are relying on social security. >> it is important that we preserve and strengthen social security for today and tomorrow. fiscal responsibility is job #1. we need to make sure, however, that we leave families on a firm foundation -- clean energy, health care, education -- said the people coming along all will have the jobs to pay into social security. there is a condition that would give us recommendations in december. we have to listen to them. i am not in the favor -- not in favor of raising the retirement age. we have to strengthen and preserve it. i would ever privatize it.

ms. ayotte's party will do that. i will not cut it by 20% as ms. ayotte says she wants to do. that is not the way to strengthen and preserve social security. we cannot privatize it and we will not cut benefits by 20% as ms. ayotte suggested. >> congressman votes, you know that is a bunch of baloney. i never said i would cut social security by 20%. i do not support privatizing social security. but if we do not have a discussion about social security than social security is not going to be there for them. we owe it to them to have really leadership on this issue unlike the time you have been in congress where we have continued to ring up the deficit fighter%. -- 500%. talking get past the point. what about your proposal that we

cut 20% out of social security? he said it is baloney, but he proposed it. >> congressman hodes, let me set the record straight. what i said is that we need to get ourself on a more responsible fiscal passed in this country. i said i would ask every agency to propose what it would like if they had to cut back their agency 20%. then we would have open hearings on that issue. we would not cut 20% across the board, but we would have that discussion said the taxpayers of know where their dollars are being used and put our budget on a more responsible trajectory unlike the increase in the budget since you have been and congress. >> will move on to the issue of health care, one that everybody can agree on. these are targeted questions. each of you have one minute to respond. each one of you have a 30 seconds or bottle. >> congressman hodes, you

supported the health care program as it is, but you also supported the public auction. two parts -- how would it help reduce costs without compromising care, and as a senator do you still support the public auction? >> i do support the public auction. it is important to give control of health care back to the people and give it -- and take it away from the health insurance companies that have used many in the population. the public option would provide an alternative to the health insurance companies. i think it is the right thing to do. i would support it. i thing we ought to have one. we are seeing help insurance companies raising rates. i would have appreciated a public auction as a counter- balance to keep those rates down. i did we need stronger reform, not weaker reform. i would tell you this, the real

place of health care reform is not in the statistics or because. o'brien to had to spend her own money to do cancer testing to see if she had the disease and could not get insurance because she had pre- existing conditions. she was allowed to get health insurance because of the bill. she is now getting cancer therapy to help save her life. that is the face of health care reform in new hampshire. that is why i voted for it, not because it was a politically easy thing to do at a time when there was divided opinion, but it was the right thing to do for the people in new hampshire. >> the that the fallout for miss ayotte? >> i would just ask you to respond to that. we have miss o'brien here. >> first i would say congressman

hodes, certainly when it comes to miss o'brien and others, we want to make sure that people have coverage in this country, but we do not be back in washington. there can be state solutions to those issues. congressman hodes supports the public auction which is more government involvement in our health care. let's talk about that health care bill because of, unfortunately, health care costs were too expensive before they passed the bill, yet the centers for medicare and medicaid services say this takes us in the wrong direction. it bans the cost curve upward. we already see some announced that businesses will see premium increases as a result of that bill in new hampshire. i have talked to medical device companies in new hampshire. one in portsmouth will have to give up one-third of their research and development budget.

ultimately it is the wrong approach to have washington dictate to us in new hampshire how we should handle health care. i firmly believe that we need private market reforms to lower costs because of this bill will increase our health care costs. stick tootte, let's this issue a bit. you call for repealing be reset health care bill. it has been said that we should gris shape it and restructure it, not repeal it. why is he wrong? >> i have great respect for senator gregg. he published ander editorial three days ago. do you do what he said in that editorial? he says it is disguised as helpful enclosed by the secrecy of back room dealing. that's not forget all of the

cornhuskers' kickbacks of the the louisiana purchase. this law has already begun to inflict great harm on the american people, our economy, and our health care. we need to repeal this law. we need to replace it with common sense market reform, tort reforms so our decision -- so our physicians do not have to fight in court. you get the same tax benefit if the purchase insurance as an individual. there are reforms that we can and that that deal with health care costs that are not dealt with in this bill. senator gregg has said there is great harm in america with this bill. i agree with him. >> under the health care reform bill, small businesses are already getting tax cuts to help their employees purchase health insurance. seniors are getting money to help pay for their prescription drugs. kids with pre-existing conditions up to the age of 19

now must be sold health- insurance instead of being refused by their insurance companies. kids up to the age of 26 can be policies.parent's people like dale o'brien have access to health care. governor -- ms. ayotte, you had government sponsored taxpayer subsidized health care. why is it good enough for you, but not good enough for ms. o'brien? why is it ok for you to have taxpayers subsidize government sponsored health care, but you want to take away from ms. o'brien? >> congressman has, i work with the state of new hampshire. i deal with this health insurance companies that you like to criticize all the time. that is ridiculous. that is not the issue here. the issue is that the bill you voted for is one that is going to cost our small businesses more money and they will face

the difficult choice of continuing to cover health care or paying fines. we have already heard employers around the nation talking about that. this is the wrong direction to go. 26,000 seniors will be dropped from the medicare advantage plan because of this bill. >> we have to move on. if you want to pick this back up, you are more than welcome to. we are going to the second round of the candidate's questions. each candidate will have 30 seconds to ask a question. >> congressman hodes, we are talking about health care. during the debate about the federal government and the public auction and the takeover of health care, you dismissed people who opposed the law as members of the flat-earth society.

a recent poll shows that over half of new hampshire voters think the health care reform bill you voted for should be repealed. what you think it is ok to be little and dismissed new hampshire citizens whose viewpoint differs from yours and would you apologize to them? >> we ask questions to people about health care reform, there is overwhelming support in the united states for putting the people back in control of health care and not the big health insurance companies. i voted for health care because it was the right thing to do for the people in new hampshire's white small-business is, like our kids, like mrs. o'brien. it was right for our economy because of the long term it will save $1 trillion to the deficit. health care reform was in essential to a healthy economy and rebuilding our middle-class and making us competitive in a global economy with our

competitors are already offering health care with no results at lower cost. it is critical that we move our system from a system that relies heavily on specialty care to an integrated primary preventive care, that we strengthen and preserve medicare without taking away benefits. all of these are critical components of health care reform. i knew there was some dispute about it. i did not vote for it because it was easy. i voted for it because it was the right thing to do. i stand by that vote. it is the right thing to do for the people of new hampshire. use a repeal it. how can you look mrs. o'brien in the eye and say, "if you want to take away her health-insurance." how can you do that, ms. ayotte? >> congressman heads, he said that when people are asked the right way, then they will support health care reform. here is what you do not understand. the people in new hampshire

understood health care reform and they knew it was not what they wanted, yet you did not listen to them. instead you call the people who disagree with you members of the flat-earth society. if i served in the united states senate, i will not dismiss those who disagree with me. i will listen to you. >> ms. ayotte, the sponsor of this debate recently came under fire for a policy that excludes same-sex companies from having equal access to the newspaper. you supported their policy of exclusion. you have not supported the repeal of don't ask don't tell. you oppose same-sex marriage and adoption rights for same-sex couples. how can you look at new hampshire citizens in the eye and tell them they are second- class citizens who do not have the same constitutional rights to equality as every other american? >> congressman hodes, i believe in the first amendment to the

united states constitution. i do not think is a member of congress you should be telling the free press what they should or should not threat in this country. i will stand firmly with that. when it comes to the issue of marriage, i do believe in traditional marriage, but i also believe that voters in new hampshire should decide those issues when it comes to marriage, when it comes to adoption. i will respect the voter's view here in new hampshire. >> we are running short on time. please keep your answers to 30 seconds. >> a key role of four united states senators is to vote on judicial nominations. as a social progressive, how would you apply your values in considering nominees including those to the supreme court? >> i got my start in public service with david souter before he was a supreme court justice. what impressed me was his integrity, his independence, and keeping politics out of

justice, and following the laws as they were written. i supported his nomination to the supreme court. i went to the new york bar association and spoke on his behalf, regardless of the fact he was in the opposing party. he is the model of what a supreme court justice should be. that is the kind of justice is we need -- independent, with integrity, that understand the constitution as a living document. >> could you envision voting for a nominee that would limit abortion rights? >> i do not think there should be a litmus test. i think you should take the entire scope of a nominee's experience, skill, and testimony. i think the hearings, by the way, should not be kabuki theater periods i would have concerns about somebody who wanted to overturn roe v wade as my opponent has said she would

like to see. she wants to see roe v. wade overturned. she was to take a woman's right to choose away. i believe it is a fundamental liberty recognized by our supreme court. i would never agree with overturning roe v. wade. i think it would be a critical factor m1 difficult for me to get over. >> 30 seconds mrs. ayotte? >> when it comes to the supreme court justice, i will be looking as whether they will inherent to the united states constitution -- whether they will adhere to the united states constitution. my husband served in the military and i did not agree with the views of elena kagan. she wanted to exclude recruiters from harvard. i would not have supported her nomination. a basic part of our constitution is making sure that the defense of our nation -- i state wishes

support justices that adhere to that document. >> ms. ayotte, you supported justice sotomayor or. should you apply your philosophy and the wishes of the majority of the people who elected you understanding your velocity towards these very important decisions. >> i think each justice needs to be reviewed on their merits, based on their record, there pass judicial history at they have one. while i did not agree with all of justice sotomayor's decisions, we could review her record. elena kagan does not have a record. when it comes to reviewing supreme court justices, i will look eight justice on their merits -- i will look at each

justice on their merits. >> we have to move forward. in lieu of a closing statement, we will ask a closing question. each candidate will have 75 seconds to answer this one. but also use that time to make their final pitch to the voters. >> you are both lawyers with backgrounds in prosecution. what part of the bill of rights is the most important to you and hal has that shake your political philosophy -- and how has that shaped your political philosophy? >> the entire bill of rights is very important to me. in terms of shaping my philosophy as the united states senator, i am going to always make sure that every piece of legislation that i vote on eight years to the ideals of our country and to our united states constitution. i really appreciate you listening tonight. as americans, we have always

believed that we will leave a better country for our children going forward. for the first time in our history we do not feel that way. why are we worried about the american dream? because politicians like congressman hodes went to washington and stop listening. they spent money we do not have on programs we cannot afford. we have to get our fiscal house in order. we have to cut back the spending. i will be a senator that lessons less to washington and more to you, the people of this state. we need to get back to fiscal responsibility and cut our budget. if we do not, we will not leave a bright future for my children, your children, and the next generation of this country. that is what this election is about. i will vote for you to make sure that we get the funding in order, cut taxes -- >> congressman, one minute 15,

please. >> the foundation of our great democracy is that we are all created equal. that is why individual rights or enumerated in the bill of rights. -- are enumerated in the bill of rights. i take that to heart. there is a simple choice in this election. the people in new hampshire deserve an independent senator that stance with the people. where do they want somebody who is in the pockets of special *? are we going to come together and move afford it? we have seen an unprecedented flood on our air waves of spial native millionaire back money, $5 million attacking me because i do not stand with them. i stand with the people. they are supporting ms. ayotte. they want her as the united

states senator. do they care about the middle- class families in this country? they do not. i stand with the people. i will be the center for our firefighters, our teachers, our first responders. our opponent -- my opponent has been backed by sarah pailin and karl rove. as the united states senator for new hampshire -- >> we have to wrap it up, we are almost all of time. >> i am on the side of the people. >> we are out of time. that will wrap up our granite state debate. we want to thank our panelists and our audience. don't forget on monday we will be airing our commitment 2010 election countdown. i will meet the candidates and find out where they stand. news and i will be back on air at 11:00 with a full wrap up and analysis of the debate. until then, have a great night. [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] contentn's local vehicle is spending the country. >> the eyes of the nature is on us -- the eyes of the country is on us. we need to make sure that nancy pelosi is removed as speaker. it makes a difference in the policies this country will go in. >> hoosiers what economic security for themselves and their families. economic security means good jobs and decent health care. to many residents of our state had either lost insurance because they lost their jobs, where premiums or too high, where they had a pre-existing condition and cannot get coverage. >> the incumbent in this district is joe donnelly. he has been in office for two terms. he is quietly considered to be a moderate democrat, part of the

blue-dog coalition on the democratic side. jackie walorski is a republican state with the senate did running for congress for the first time. every candidate, without hesitation, says that jobs and the economy or at the top of their list in this race. i think their constituents would agree. it is a district that is dependent heavily on manufacturing. it has been hit hard during the recession. obviously elkhart, indiana, is a city known from coast to coast. president obama has made several visits there. it is one area of the country that has been hurt during the recession. >> it has been difficult to find a job. i would say that. i moved to south bend, indiana, from seattle. seattle is a little more insular

and best -- and less effective -- less affected by the economic downturn. here in indiana, i have noticed many businesses have closed. people are down on their luck and struggling. i have heard the crime rates have gone up. i think it is a difficult time for our country. >> what i hear from indiana is jobs. it is the broken promises. a lot of people are disappointed that president obama kicked off this stimulus package year and promised jobs. all we have seen here is broken promises and an unbelievable unemployment rate. we see that stimulus money went to prisoners and dead people. we sent money to china. this is topic number one because we are seeing an employment rate

equal or greater than the 1930's. people are tired of the spending. they do not want to be part of a national health care program. >> as our congressman, i stop -- i voted to stop increases in medicare coverage. i always boasted to protect social security. i am gerry donnelly and i approve this ad. social security should always be rock solid. >> he has been focusing as democrats across the country have on social security as one vulnerability for republican candidates. he has said in a few interviews and on questionnaires that she promotes the idea of privatizing social security. she has clarified that she does not think there should be a wholesale change right away. seniors to date should be entitled to those benefits that they were promised and that they paid in two-parent but that is one area -- that they paid into.

>> i am it really worried with the new election coming up that health care reform would give eviscerated. i work in a clinic where i take care of young adults. those numbers are growing every day. i do not want to see us -- i want to see us reform our health care system and get on track. >> i support this health care bill because i thought it make coverage more affordable. it makes covers more available. in addition, it covers pre- existing conditions and it is also extraordinarily helpful for seniors. >> i think it is competitive for stovall because the end -- first -- because the incumbent is a moderate democrat running in a

pretty middle of the road district. people are conservative about a lot of fiscal issues. just the way the government's has spent money on the stimulus and gotten involved in the bankruptcies of general motors and chrysler and health care reform, those are big issues that make a significant portion of this district uncomfortable. those are issues he has to explain to the constituents why those were good for the district, like those were good for them. his opponent, jackie walorski, she is a republican running in a republican year. those are issues she can hammer on. he has to defend those big- ticket items he voted for. he has to convince people that the federal government and the nation are on the right track

with the things he voted for. >> i think it is representative of what a lot of people are calling the narrative of this election year where incumbents that were previously very popular and completely secure in their seats, like joe donnelly, now his seat is in place just two years later. it is representative of this larger narrative that we are seeing played out across the country where republicans are making gains and democrats are having trouble convincing voters that the current path we are on is the path that we should stay on. >> leading up to the november 2 midterm elections, we are travelling the country and visiting districts where closely contested house races are taking place.

for more information, visit our website c-span.org/lcv. tonight, more political coverage with the illinois governor debate between pat quinn and state senator bill brady. then, a hawaii governor debate between former democratic congressman neal abercrombie read -- neil abercrombie and duke aiona. >> debates every night. go on line to view archived debates at the c-span video library. visit our politics page for twister feeds, campaign ads, and other resources. this weekend, see the john stuart-steven cole bear rally on c-span. we will open our phone lines for

your campaign -- for your comments about the campaign. followed c-span's election coverage right through election day. >> president's do not manage crises. they split them to build this emotional bond. i think of churchill and the battle of britain. i am not sure we have seen that from recent presidents. >> this weekend, historians richard norton smith and david brinkley. >> now, an illinois governor debate between governor pat quinn and state senator bill brady. governor clinton was the sitting lieutenant governor and became governor on january 29, 2009, when robb but with this was impeached and removed from office.

this race is rated a toss up. this debate was organized by wttw-tv and city club chicago. >> they are buying for the same job, illinois governor. on tuesday, voters will choose the candidate they feel will move us forward. candidate bill brady and pat quinn meet face to face.

the audience, members, and guest -- which may, here are two of the candidates who want to be our next governor. republican candidate bill brady is currently a member of the illinois state senate. democrat pat quinn currently holds the office of illinois governor. also on the ballot or green party candidate, libertarian candidate, an independent candidate. a quick note on procedure, this is not a formal debate. there are no opening or closing statements. the answers will not be time. the candidates will not necessarily be asked the same questions. we have a limited amount of time, so we have ask the candidates to be sustained. if they begin to make a speech

or filibuster, they know i will cut them off. center brady, governor clinton, welcome. >> it is good to be here. >> whichever of you is elected, you will have to make hard and unpopular decisions. i am wondering, will either of you say tonight that you'll just served one term so that this term will have your undivided attention with no distractions or thoughts about coming elections. >> i believe in term limits. i think eight is enough. i try to get that on the ballot in illinois. with respect to this office, it is important that we strike in illinois out. i think the voters know that i will work for years for them. we'll see what happens after that. i am very happy with the opportunity to serve right now. we have an integrity crisis.

i took over during an emergency. >> you not commit to just four years? >> if you look at the federal term limits with respect to the president, i think that is the system we should have. >> senator brady, which you commit to only serving one term? >> that is a debris -- that is a very difficult decision to make. we need a government that all root out the waste, fraud, and mismanagement. i believe that will leave us in good stead like other governors to have been willing to do that. >> do you not think the voters will say that at this governor is willing to sacrifice some of his own political ambition to do really tough things, especially those undecided voters, do you not think that would be a persuasive argument to voters who are pretty jaded about

politics? >> we had almost 500,000 signatures. we need to have eight constitutional amendment for that. senator brady had a opportunity to sign the petition them. he refused to do that. he has been in springfield 17 years. i believe we need to have term limits on legislators and elected officials by constitutional amendments. >> two days after the election, the legislature will reconvene. they will finally approve a $4 billion borrowing plan to pay the state's 2011 pension plans. or both of you on board with that kind of borrowing? >> absolutely not. he is not willing to face up to the tough decisions the governor must make. illinois spending is out of

control. governor clinton has not been able to rein in spending. he has increased spending by $3 billion. families and businesses have reconstructed their spending to live within their means. we need a governor who would not continue to borrow on the backs of citizens and their pensions. i will do everything i can to oppose that. the pension system must be fixed. we have obligations to people who paid into the pension system. it is not their fault that the pension system was not funded. >> our government did not begin the day i was sworn in. centaur brady was in springfield for 17 years. the budget on 17 budgets. i was not -- i was not in springfield that long. we have to pay the pension payment. we have bipartisan support in the illinois house this year and last year. we had bipartisan support in the

senate to borrow the money and make sure we pay our pensions. you mentioned the governor of new jersey. he did not pay the pension payment in that state. he raised the property taxes. he slashed funding for education and lay off teachers. what kind of model is that for our state of illinois? i want to make sure we cut the budget -- and i cut the budget $3 billion, i cut my own play. senator brady refused to cut his own pay. we have to do this without cutting education, health care, police, or cutting our veterans. >> i propose this last year. it was proposed by the legislature. we do have to pay the payment. we cannot be like new jersey who just gets out on the pavement. that is not responsible at all. >> what is the alternative, senator brady?

if you do not borrow, what we want to do? >> the governor's office have put us in a deficit position. another one to add $4 billion to that. we have to have the fiscal discipline to live within our means. if we do not make the payment, it will lead a bigger hole. but borrowing also leaves a hole. if we borrow against the patient's you are still injecting children and grandchildren in our state. we need a governor who has the backbone, who is willing to balance the budget. budget lastinn's year targeted three areas. he cut 33% to public safety by attacking state police and local units of government. i said that we will barely deal with all areas of state government. the waste, the fraud, the abuse, the mismanagement is rampant in

every area. >> let's stay on the pension. i am confuse. this will cost $1 billion to finance it. >> if we do not pay our pension payment, it will cost a lot more. >> senator brady is reckless and wrong. that is why people are suspicious of his plans. they do not make any sense. they are nonsensical. we need to have common sense. we need a governor to get us through this. it is important to point help the senator brady has proposed borrowing $50 billion. yes you did. >> you have proposed borrowing had you not? r quinn has no plan to pay it back. >> the excess interest penalties

will amount to $500 million. we need a governor who will balance the budget, make the pension payments within the budget. it can be done. >> help you make the pension payment? >> we will make it out of revenues. >> the general revenue fund is not at $57 billion. let me finish. >> we need a traffic cop. >> we cut the general revenue budget more than any governor in illinois history. we have to keep doing it. we have to keep but cutting the budget if we have to. we have done this, and having done that, we have enacted public pension reform for the first time in illinois history. we enacted a ball that i signed that will save taxpayers to under $20 billion. senator brady was in this

legislature for 17 years. he did not do anything about a pension reform. i got the job done. you do not have any accomplishments are you talk about a lot of things that are nonsensical. >> center brady? >> you borrowed $10 billion and did not put it into the pension fund. you cannot claim -- let's talk about the budget. >> i have money in the budget for the pension plan. >> you and your pardner proposed a budget that was out of balance and did not address the pension system. it was disingenuous and as honest to the people of illinois. >> we would get to general revenues. almost everyone who has a serious state and ability to

analyze economics in the state had argued that both of you are not seeking realistic things about what will save the state. you cannot cut your way out a bit. you cannot tax your way out of it. this is a radical, a drastic situation. what citizens have gotten is political rhetoric from both of you. >> i got into the iranian and cut the budget. -- i got into the arena and cut the budget. he voted against cutting his own pay. it takes courage to cut the budget and keep education funding. our education funding this fiscal year is a little higher than last year. we maintain that. we want to maintain our investment in schools. center brady is proposing over $1 billion in cuts. raising local property taxes. that is what he is all about. i'd think we need a governor who

is against the revenue for education i propose. we need revenue for education. >> you need a tax increase? >> i proposed a surcharge for schools so we find education from the state. if we do not do that, local property taxes will continue to rise. that is what centaur brady said. -- senator brady. i do not think that is a good thing for illinois, our economy, or our jobs. >> what has to go in order to make up $15 billion by next year? >> the democrats say that if we continue governor quinn and's policies -- he has specifically targeted classroom education.

33% to state troopers. local share two men disabilities -- every area of state government has to share. his general revenue document shows the elevated government revenue spending by $3 billion. let's talk about the crisis that they had put us in. there is no question we are in a fiscal crisis. we cannot continue to use slick political words like general revenue. we have spent over $50 billion a year. the only way to solve this crisis is by being truthful and opened with the people in illinois. >> you are two state employees. you have a cadillac of a pension program compared to private employees. you have great health care. you have cost of living increases. does their need to be a reduction in your future benefits for the sake of the state? >> that is all you can do under

our constitution. for existing employees you cannot unilaterally radically change their pension. it is unconstitutional. >> there is a disagreement on that. given the radical nature of our fiscal distress, is it not worth while to see if there is something you can cut? >> a jurist look at our constitution and said it is there. you have to obey the law. there is a curse for your life to be filled with lawyers. if you want to impose that on people, they will see us in federal court. that is not the way to save taxpayers' money. we have to work to reduce our expenditures. >> state employees -- would you support requiring retired state employees to make some contribution to their health care? >> can i get back to the first question that i did not get a

chance to address? >> i will go back to that, i promise. should state retirees begin to contribute something for their own health and medical? >> absolutely. if we are going to live up to our obligations that we have, the people of illinois at one to live up to it. it is not their fault that -- >> is that for the legislature as well? >> one-party rule is over the last eight years. the obligations of pensions a double to $75 billion. that is a lack of fiscal discipline. it is apparent. they pay into the system. it is not their fault that the governor did not pay into the systems. if we are going to live up to those obligations, we have to make changes where we can. >> name some.

>> other budget cuts need to be done. >> testing for public employees or for other people? >> you are talking about state spending. every area of the state budget will have to be addressed if we are going to make illinois worked for the people. >> we enacted budgeting for results this year. it is landmark legislation. you voted no. >> that means balancing the budget. >> i put it in before the legislature. the bottom line is, i have cut the budget. you have not done anything. >> it does not matter how many times you say it, it does not make it true. >> is the $3 billion a shifting of funds or an actual cut? >> we have what does 100 fewer state employees today than when

i took the oath of office. that began the day i got sworn in in. the reporters before me to neglected a lot of the pension things. we had one governor in jail and one going to jail. i had to straighten things out. we rebid all contracts over $1 billion. we also consolidated all the space and saved millions of dollars. we now by used vehicles. we do not buy new vehicles. we get them from the federal government and save a considerable amount of money. we have done this. we hear from senator brady about all of this pie in the sky programs. his model, the fellow in new jersey, did not make the page and payment. he laid off teachers a raise property taxes. that is what he wants to do to illinois. >> senator brady, why did you not at what he said he cut?

>> if you look at the budget documents, why else would he need to borrow? your partners with the former governor for eight years. you cannot blame it all on him. >> he announced to the whole world that i was not part of his administration. >> four years ago you call them a decent and honorable man. [talking over each other] >> i ran against george ryan appeared you supported george ryan in 1994 and 1998. >> i never said a word about george ryan.

frankly, you do not know what you are talking about. >> did you vote for him? >> what would you call him a decent and honorable man unless you're trying to protect yourself when he was under federal investigation? >> he lied to the people of illinois. he was convicted of lying. >> let's move on. inn, you have flip- flop on campaign a legislative measures and filling obama's senate seat. >> i think they should have the opportunity to ride for free. with respect to the university trustees, i appointed seven new i appointed someone who led a commission to study what went one at the university of illinois. there were politicians giving

out scholarships to various people, and campaign contributors. when senator brady was a state senator, he gave a scholarship to someone who gave them a contribution. there was a full investigation. the report came and recommended that all of the trustees resigned. it said they should voluntarily resign. seven did. i appointed replacements. it cleared up the scandal. senator brady has never explained how he gave a scholarship to a campaign contributor to go on giving back. >> is supported ethics legislation. >> they said we should go back to the drawing table to get a stronger law. we all agreed we could get a stronger law. we get a stronger law.

she was on our reform commission. she said her father would be very proud of what we had done. we had campaign finance limits for the first time in illinois. we have stronger governmental ethics. i got that done. i enforce that. >> senator brady, state television stations pulled political ads for nonpayment. your campaign called it a glitch. does it not accrue to the management of this campaign? >> none at all. we made every bill that we owe. we change our tactics today. we are addressing different issues. everything is back in place. >> i do not know about that. it's outside he did not pay your bills. that is what the general said. >> there you go again, governor, saying things you do not know anything about. >> the tv station says they did

not get paid for the tv commercials you add. >> it is another disingenuous of mark -- disingenuous remark from a career politician. you started under dan walker. >> governor quinn, you have been in charge for almost two years. it has been said that more than 80% of people in illinois i think this state is on the wrong track. do you lordly wear the jacket for that? >> i do not think so. i took over during tough times. our country lost 8 million jobs under george bush. senator brady supported the george bush economic policies. i did not. this year we have created more jobs than any other state in the midwest. we have had nine straight months of declining unemployment.

today i was in it brought 4. chrysler is making an investment in their plant in belvidere. ford will be making a new explore in illinois, not indiana. senator brady said an illinois -- illinois should be more like indiana or tennessee. >> indiana has a higher unemployment rate that we do. the of lower personal income. so west tennessee. i like the bears. i do not like the tennessee titans or the indianapolis colts. >> was it not your responsibility as state senator to recuse yourself? >> that was not true. i did not vote for three times for the legislation. several of the bills were pre- empted predicted >> nobody believes that. >> we played the chronological

order out a bit. there is no truth to it. >> if you have a conflict of interest you would reduce yourself? >> if i ever had a conflict of interest i would recuse myself. i did not have a conflict of interest. >> you offered a bill that would allow discrimination on sexual orientation and introduced a state constitutional ban on same-sex marriages and several unions. polls in the state show widespread report -- widespread support for gay and lesbian couples. the you think you create a hostile environment for gays? >> below of illinois is that marriage is a protected institution between a man and woman. i support that law. >> u.s. said governor brady -- center brady does not support equality for women. was that over heated campaign

rhetoric? >> somebody may have "made, but i do not say that kind of rhetoric. i do not agree with senator brady's position. he sponsored a bill that would allow employers to fire gay people just because they are gay. we want to have jobs in illinois for everyone. gay people want to work to. i think it is and tolerant to have anybody sponsoring legislation that would allow employers to fire people. >> are you saying you did not say that? did you say that or not? >> i did not say that. i told a person today i did not say that. >> i disagree with your position on a lot of things, but especially the governor should be tolerant. i think he should be tolerant and you have not been tolerant. >> yousuf i do not believe in equal pay. i do believe in equal pay.

i voted for a bill. your disingenuous distractions at outright lying -- >> how about minimum wage? >> you just said you did not say something after it was reported that you did. he said i did not vote for equal pay, which i did. you need to tell the truth to the people, governor. >> you voted for equal pay, you say. >> the market should determine the pace. i believe in lost. >> answer the question. >> debt-for equal pay? >> i do not know. it will play after 2003, the governor. take a look at the bill. >> i am going to answer a

question. where d stand on minimum wage and equal pay? >> i believe in equal pay for equal work. >> it is an important law of the land. senator brady has voted no on raising the minimum wage and now he says he wants to cut the minimum wage in illinois courage of that will slash the pay of people making minimum wage by $2,000 a year. >> were the stand on the full pay a minimum wage? >> i believe that illinois should be of the federal level let the federal level ketchup to illinois. >> e 1st said you were for minimum wage. >> what concerns you when you

finally released to taxes after initially said that he would only allow reporters to see them in your office in springfield for a few hours. that did not seem to be the most transparent of disclosure. >> i am a small business person. gov. quinn kept bringing up the tax issue. i think it was a personal decision and i decided i would remove the distraction. frankly, we did what governor quinn did one year ago which was to give them three hours and gave every reporter everything that they needed. gave six years of tax returns. >> in three hours, that is a hard thing to digest. >> you can ask ever reporter the was there that they had as much time as they wanted. we had a full disclosure, unlike governor quinn. >> i do it every year, every

day. i have done it every year in my public life. you gave them three hours, a glance. >> you said that they could see the last six years of your returns? >> yes, they have been all my life. >> let me get this straight. >> your running mate has not released his income taxes at all. governors have gone to prison and one will be tried. how is that acceptable? >> the law says that you have to divulge your statement of economic interests. it is the law. he'd lived up to every obligation under the law as i have. it is a personal issue. mike madigan practically the governor under quinn has not released his?

i have said that this is a personal issue. >> are you saying that you're willing to let people look to taxes? >> that is what i have done. >> governor quinn, given perilous state of the state's finances, unions only give back to 1% at best of the deficit. how is that a good deal? >> it was a mediated deal. we appointed a mediator and came to an agreement that they would cut wage concessions. i am the first governor that has ever done any concessions. there was a contract that was a negotiation-negotiated before i became governor.

we got concessions and save about $3 million. no governor has done that before. part of the agreement was that we would not lay off more workers. i have already laid off 1100. we also closed facilities. we will look shi'a a new contractor this was all about in the open. the court encouraged the mediation and we save money for the taxpayers today. i think that is a good deal. no other governor has been able to say that. >> governor, you got concessions all right. you sold out. you sold out to the people of illinois. you sold out to the people of illinois. where was it? >> a town meeting. >> where was it?

>> it was in a hotel. >> you do not hold a town meeting in a hotel. >> everybody could come. >> you do not see the conflict? >> no. >> that is the problem. this would make robbed blagojevich envious. >> name something the state does now that the state cannot afford. >> we cannot afford a medicaid system that does not meet the needs of the people of illinois and wastes billions of dollars. we need a governor who will stand up and reform the medicaid system. managed care will bring access

to medicaid recipients in the earliest stages. it will save money. our managed care system is broken. many to bring it in line with what we can afford it. it is a win-win. it helps people who depend on medicaid and it saves taxpayers money. >> medicaid was in total disaster in 1990. it was wasteful. we are doing it right now. we are saving money. we are making sure is good care. we need to make sure that those that receive care get decent care. i have a program that i think we should abolish switches a legislative program that lets legislators give out scholarships, not to the needy or to people with the ability to go to college but not the money, but can give it to anybody, including campaign contributors. i am against that program.

i help save our scholarship program. he wants to cut it. >> no, no. i sponsor the scholarship program for you have been governor for two years. either you do not have the power of-the power to abolish it, or you do not want to. -- the power to abolish it, or you do not want to. >> let's talk about a couple of other things. please allow me to moderate my own debate. >> this is a form. -- a forum. >> how have you cut back on your personal finances? >> in 2006, we had 150 realtors and were building over 200 homes and because of the economic policies, illinois has struggled.

she blames this on george bush. we lost more jobs under governor clinton that undercover bush. he talks about that example. we have to cut back on spending in our business and in our families. >> how to cut back on your family? >> on vacations and other areas that we would have liked to have enjoyed. >> governor quinn? >> i am a four will die. i stay at super 8 -- i am a frugal diet. i stay at separate. you can ask my kids. i cut my own pay and i think that is important for the governor to do. we need to have an example of frugality and i try to do that. >> do either of the reed blogs, and if so, which one? >> it is not a big part of what

i do. >> you are not on the internet? you do not read political web sites? >> i mostly read newspapers on the internet. >> governor? >> occasionally, i read blogs. >> which ones? >> political blogs and a lot of sports. i am a bears fan, a sox fan. >> i am guessing that t you were guessingweeting. >> i saw the ferry's first bulls game played in chicago for it if you want to look at a blog, we have a really good website quinnforillinois.com.

[laughter] >> do you do any facebook? >> we have a facebook page for the campaign. >> so somebody else does that? >> it is difficult to do it when your on the road. >> campaigns are tough. a lot of what we're seeing in these paid ads, it is really-. is there a way for the two of you to run against each other and not go negative? >> we do not go personally negative. we will lay out the differences between myself and my opponent. in governor quinn once to hike the income tax. >> i never suggested that we hiked property tax.

>> i guess this is impossible not to go negative. >> i think it is a positive ad about senator brady. i do think that the glee at is light-hearted -- advertisement is light-hearted. you can go to our web site. >> you have already talked about your web site. >> one issue is on abortion you have said he would support a ban on abortion in all cases except if it took the life of a mother. to ban abortion is to criminalize abortion. i am just curious, if you would subscribe fully to that notion, should a woman who has had an

abortion be subject to criminal penalties if you could get a ban in place? >> i believe that government should protect human life. i do not use this as a divisive issue to divide illinois. as governor, i will honor the law of the land. i do not believe we should criminalize women. >> but you believe that if you had the power to do it, that there should be a ban on abortion? >> i am pro-life. as governor, this is not an issue. >> what i am curious about is, if there was a band, what is the consequence of making abortions illegal for the woman who has an abortion. >> i would not criminalize women. >> what happenes if a woman is

raped? he says that if a woman is raped, you cannot have an abortion. >> the law of the land provides women with that right. >> you would say to women that they cannot even have an abortion in the case of rape or incest? >> the law of the land is what it is. if you have the power to do so, would you support changing the law of the land? >> i do not. i am pro-life. i do not have that power as governor. what i do have power as governor is to create a currency modification bill. parents need the right to be notified about their minor condition.

>> south of i-80, people want to talk about mike madigan and he is not even on the ballot for them. he has been a lightning rod for what is seen as the ultimate power down in springfield. can you give us some examples of when you have accomplished something that speaker madigan has opposed? >> he voted against term limits. i think that we should have reasonable term limits. i think that we need to enact that. date used to give their full salary on the one. i had a standing boo-vation.

i do not go out of my way to kick people. i like senator brady. he takes care of his family. in politics, you have different points of view and that is why we are in this forum. >> can you talk about legislation that you have been responsible for that you think has been particularly important for effective in your 17 years? >> 19 was chairman of the pension committee, -- when i was chairman of the pension committee, we funded retired teachers health insurance. they are dependent on that. for six-eight months, we created a bill that would give teachers health insurance. i believe that's what we owed

teachers that taught our children. i am very proud of the legislation. >> in your own political career, governor, is there something that stands out as a regret that you wish you could correct? >> when i got sworn in as governor, my oldest son held the bible and the kind of thought at that moment that we would come together for the common good. i read about president ford after nixon left. i thought that illinois would have a bipartisan moment to do hard things such as reform our schools and lower property taxes. i learned pretty quickly the thought was not want to happen. >> is a regret -- i am thinking of something that you regret that you failed to do or did not accomplish for could have done better. this anything come to mind? >> i have served in a number of public offices.

a help a lot of soldiers and veterans for a wish i had more time to help people -- soldiers and veterans. i wish i had more time to help people. >> senator? >> i am proud of my years of public service? >> are you sorry about the cats and dogs euthanasia? >> yes. [laughter] >> we had on our message board to send in what they wanted to ask you. one said that this was on the tail end of another piece of legislation do disagree? >> the republican leader in the house and senate can to my office.

i am not a fan of video gaming. they said the only that you would vote for the job bill was if video gaming was included to the the did not want to have any of the financing. they wanted video gaming. i said that he is the son of a methodist minister and asked if he was sure about this. i said that if you're going to put that in, it has to be a local option so that any community, if any city, in the county could vote on it. that is why i went along with it. it is not my favorite and it is not the key way that we are funding. >> most of the misspelled his have opted out, believing that it is the crack cocaine of gambling. after one of the is elected, word is that there are already plans to release amp of gambling in illinois. are you guys really for that?

>> there is a difference between a leader in the fall were. a leader would say no. video poker is discourage of illinois. -- is a surge of illinois. scourge of illinois. if you believe in something, stand up for it. >> people can voted out of their community. we have to invest in schools. you voted for the spending in this jobs bill, but she voted against the financing. >> i am proud of that. >> you will take a bell at the ribbon cutting events, but you will not come up with a way to pay with -- to pay for it. >> how many ribbons have you cut over the past couple weeks? >> i was a chrysler today and we invested six other million dollars to create jobs.

>> why did you implement that bill? why do you hold back until just before the election. >> chrysler voted for that the week ago. -- a week ago. >> people want to know if illinois should be tougher than arizona or as tough. did either of you subscribe to that notion as to what the state of illinois should be doing or not be doing it with a document and citizens? >> i am against it. it is racial profiling. i said so today. it is unconstitutional and should be struck down for a number to the national governors' conference and saw the governor of arizona. i know the lady. i have been to the funerals of hispanic american soldiers from our state to the three marines have been met buried -- have

been buried from one high school. >> let me say, i thank god i live in a country where people will risk their lives to live here. i believe illegal immigration -- i believe in legal immigration. i think that for our economy to flourish, we need more legal immigration. what i'm going to do as governor is enforced laws of illinois. >> what about children who were born here to undocumented parents, is there a pathway where they can continue their education here? where do each of the stand on that? >> i support the dream and. -- act. i want to make sure there is a path to citizenship.

>> senator? >> i think that the dream act is a discussion that needs to be had. i support it. young children born in illinois got to go to our colleges. and do not believe you hold students responsible for their parents' actions, but it is a better picture of more comprehensive reform rather than piecemeal. >> senator brady, the support the teaching of creationism in schools. the see that as a problem with the establishment? >> i do not. i have said that local school districts should have the option to choose curriculum. i said that knowledge is powerful and i will not stand in the way of local school districts. i believe in evolution. >> i do not think that we should mandate something like that in the school districts. i do not think it is ridiculous.

and thanks his and sensible. it is more nonsense. i believe -- i think it is and sensible. it is nonsense. there have been from ships on both sides of the political aisle that says that there should be some leniency and that he be allowed to be released from prison produce stand on that notion? >> i will not be a partner in any of that. they lost their children in a fiery crash due to the gross negligence and illegal behavior of the secretary of state's office. senator brady supported him and

supported him letter. i am not ready to give any kind of clemency to him a thing that he should serve his sentence. >> governor, you are the most corrupt governor the state has ever seen. i do not think that you have power as governor to pardon george riley. governor riley should serve his time. >> so both of you are in agreement? >> i knew him as a person and i do not think that anyone who met him saw him as an enviable person, but a jury of 12 men and women convicted him of felonies and said that he should live out that sentence. >> does that say something about illinois that we have this disproportionately high numbers of former governors in jail? is there something that feeds this?

>> the local and state level as the power by petition to pass ethics laws, campaign finance reform and on this issue, this is the best way to protect the public. i have advocated this. i will work as hard as i can to get that done. >> i am sure that you have been busy on the trail. there is a mayor's race already underway in the city of chicago. do either of you have a preference with weather is warm emanuel -- rhom emanuel? i am a curse -- >> i am a person that believes in rural areas. >> do you have a horse in this race? >> no, i do not have a horse in

this race. >> do you have a horse in this race? >> if you want to show a commercial for the students of chicago that needed vouchers. >> i think we will just ended here, but i think you both very much for what has been a rigorous experience. senator brady, and gov. quinn, thank you. i want to thank the audience and the city club members and their guests for joining us. for all of us at chicago tonight, the and you and good night. -- thank you and good night. [applause]

>> center, where you headed? >> i think i am going to go have pizza with my children. >> both of you have your kids here and you have your mother here. does she could teach you? >> live, tomorrow, on c-span, john stewart and stephen colbert. we spoke earlier with a new york times reporter about whether the rally is being viewed as a political or a comedy of revenge. >> so, what is it going to be?

a political event or a comedy show? >> i think it will be the eye of the beholder. i think nobody believes that. i think that the motivation of the attendees will do something that is coming. >> while you write about some of that, even the dedication will be a bit comedic. >> some of the will remember the early days of saturnine live. during the invocation, it would

axle of the satire. not a real event. >> an article was published this morning on line. have you been able to find out what other speakers are to be on the agenda? >> no, the list of people did not come from the show itself. it came from the park service. answer the a lot at a people since then. i think that jon kept this under a cone of silence. none of them have talked about this. i do not think that jon wants to tag the thing in advance for being too partisan. i think that he is a comedian and as not want to ruin the punch line. >> the thing that the event is sold out of reaction to the plan back rally -- glenn beck rally

a while back? >> he told the audience before the show that he booked in the mall for the day that glenn beck booked his rallies. i think that john is using this to restore sanity. i think that he is definitely connecting it to that, but i do not think that he wants to elevate beck any more than he has been by saying it was in reaction to glenn beck. people do not believe that if you disagree with him, then your hitler. -- then you are hitler. >> you can read the article on line for the thank you for the update. >> -- online.

thank you. >> the cook political report says that this race limbs democratic. this is about one hour. >> now, commitment 2010, the gubernatorial debate. >> the evening, thank you for joining us for tonight's debate. tonight, we are joined by the two major candidates in the race for governor for the state of hawaii. the democratic candidate and the republican canada. we will -- when to thank both of the four join austria >> thank you. >> our panelists are the perils

of and others. each candidate will have 90 seconds to respond to a question. responses will be timed and the candidates will be given a 15 second morning. each candidate will be allowed a 1 minute response for rebuttal to a question that was not asked directly of them. the canada's will also have 90 seconds for closing statements. tonight's debate will also be an interactive 1 through the use of our website and other social media. we will go to our web server to tell you how you can take part. >> go online to kitv.com submit questions.

these would be questions that we would ask the candidates later. you can also just post your opinions. this is all in real time. everyone will be able to talk with each other and submit those questions. we will be moderating this online with a political analyst that is joining us and he will also join us at 10:00 p.m. to comment on the debate. again, go to kitv.com and submit those questions. >> i will begin tonight's debate with our first question. each of you will have 90 seconds to respond. you have both been in office for many years. mr. aiona, you have been in office for nearly eight years and mr. abercrombie has been in office for 20 years. are things better now than when you first took office and if so, why? >> thank you, very much.

thanks to the panel. we have known one another. that is probably a good way to begin our discussion this evening. the fact is that it is so personal here in hawaii. we understand what leadership is all about. i think that this election is a referendum on leadership. a judgment is made with regard to the congress 10 times. the decisions that i have made on behalf of hawaii and on behalf of the united states of america were such that i was returned to office 3 whether it was in defense of the united states meeting strategic interests, whether it was protecting the environment as a member of the resources committee or if it was acting in the overall interests of hawaii bringing federal dollars to

hawaii. for constituents in the first congressional district, they decided over and over again that the judgment that i brought to bear on behalf of the united states and on behalf of hawaii was one that kept me returning to office. this is a culmination of a career that began in the state house and the city council and congress i am pleased that the people thought so. >> thank you very much mr. abercrombie. i ask the same question of you mr. aiona. >> thank you, paul for this opportunity. are we better off now than when we got election-elected? there are people out there who have lost their jobs and businesses have been closing.

the unemployment rate is continuing to go in the right direction. it is at 6.3% vs. our national honor, rate has stayed static at 9.6% for the past few months. we have one of the most brazilian economists of all the states. i think that we are ranked in the top 10 right now. when we first got elected, why a bonds rated as one of the worst states in which to do business. we have moved up in those rankings. much more can be done. we have a better business environment right now. i would say that small businesses are doing better. we have balanced the budget in the last few years and we have taken on this economic challenge and have been able to become one of the top 10 states of the most resilient in the atomic. >> let's go to our panelists, now. our first question will be from dale huff.

>> over the past eight years, you have been second-in-command sitting across from her on the state capital. when the government agreed to a teacher furloughs, did you walk across the hall until the governor that i was wrong bust that that was wrong? >> i did not tell that it was wrong, but i let her know what my opinion was. when i found out what the issue was, having furlough friday's on an educational the a, i told her that i felt we should dip into some funds to come to some sort of compromise. the solution is that everybody take an across-the-board pay cut. we have the discussion and it was ultimately the governor's decision and it was her decision to try to continue to have

discussions and see how we could best end this conflict that was there between the unions. at that point in time, management included the part of education and the board of education. >> we have a rebuttal from mr. abercrombie. >> i think that you should never put a child's education on the bargaining table. we have to have our core volume -- core values. our core values shall be the construction of the of the child. if we put that child's education on the bargaining table, that child is not fair. it seems to me that the governor has to take responsibility here. the government-a governor has the responsibility.

we have to get decisions down to the school level. >> do i get a revival for that? >> no. -- a rebuttal for that? >> no. >> you are saying to cut the teachers pay across the board and make them come to work? >> what i am saying is that this is an easy position to take. it was a matter of what the department of education was going to do. it was up to them how they would want to take a budget cut. the matter of everyone coming together and seeing the best way to do it, the other option was

to take that furlough, if you're going to continue to have furloughs, the other option is a vacation day, a holiday, or noninstructional but. >> we will write that up right now. >> that is not the case. >> beard going on to our next question-we are going on to our next question. the next question is for mr. abercrombie. >> you have been endorsed by the union that represents public school teachers, but some say that the hsta is part of the problem within the public schools. are you willing to stand up to the hsta to institute standards that reward good teachers and root out the bad ones? can you name three areas right now in which to disagree with the union? >> it is not a matter of where there is disagreement, but where we can agree and educate the children. that has been precisely why we

have not been able to move forward. there has been conflict and confrontation. let me give you a note from the teacher. it says that i hope you had a fantastic summer and that we will be doing many fun activities. this is the kind of teacher that i am going to be working with. we did not have to have furlough fridays. congress passed a stimulus fund that provided tens of millions of dollars to keep teachers in the classroom. i can tell you where we do agree. we want to support the teachers in the classroom. we want to support the principle. those are the ones that want to teach the children. and we are waiting for a governor that will support them other than confront them. in terms of disagreeing, but did

not want to do it. they felt forced into it. in terms of disagreement, they want a governor that will work with them other than against them. >> what about you? you were given a questionnaire by them when they endorsed to that asked you a number of things. is there anything that you do not agree with? >> i agree with every position of the events as the education of a child. every one of those questions was geared toward that. >> thank you very much, mr. abercrombie. what would have been mr. abercrombie's solution to the doe choice and decision to take

laborsaving costs? what would have been his options? what would you have done? would you have not had furloughs? would you say that we need to go back and cut other programs in the department of education? what would you have done? what closes the gap? >> thank you very much mr. aiona. >> mr. aiona, a specific goal of your campaign is an audit of the operations and finances of the department of education. something that has not been done since 1973. you have been in office for eight years. couldn't you have found the money and then this kind of an audit such as the governor just did? >> we do not have the authority to have the doe conduct a

comprehensive audit. there are only two ways that that can happen. the board would have to want to be audited for the board of legislature. that is the only way that it could be done. that is why you have not had four previous administrations and why i will ask and the persistence. when you have the same amount of students that you had 30 years ago and the budget within this period of time changes, it is much more than just money and you have to know where it is going. today, i heard from another teacher that said that we need to do the audit. there is too much waste in the doe. they would spend money that i would not agree to a file was the school principal. >> it strikes me as strange that

after eight years, the administration does not know where the money went. why don't they release the funds? audits have been done. a legislative audit was done last year. if there was ways, why did they not act? they talk about the code of ethics and conflicts of interest. the administration did nothing. there was an audit in 2008. we wanted clarity on objectives. why was it not acted on? you do not need an audit. you need a governor that is willing to move forward with the changes that need to be made. an audit would cost over $2 million and take two years to

complete. i think that you need a governor who's ready to go on day one. >> do you have a follow-up? >> for mr. aiona, yes. you talk about the budget going up, but how much has -- the cost of everything has gone up during that same time. is that a fair criticism of the end doe? -- the doe? >> costs have gone up, but to the tune of 200%? know. i do not think so. no doubt about it. in response to your second question, it is a management tool. an audit is a management tool. it is all about knowing where the money is going. the two previous audits that mr. abercrombie talked about, that was done by the legislators

auditor. >> our next question comes from beryl huff and it goes to mr. abercrombie. >> i remember in the 1970's and 80's, you were an outstanding -- and outspoken critic of spending. i remember that you wrote a budget that would have fired hundreds of administrators in positions of you said were not justified. you also send 82 word letter to the chairman of the board of education, the first word of which is the "f" word. where is the old mr. abercrombie? >> no one has ever doubted my passion or intensity.

the gentleman that received that letter from the is one of my strongest supporters today. i am pleased about that. apparently i was able to get his attention. it was not a matter of firing people, it was reallocating. that is one of the positions i have been very strong on and i have not changed in that regard. just as in the '70s and '80s when i was in the legislature, -- in the 1970's and 1980's, when i was in the legislature, i did the same thing on the armed services committee. i took the numbers i was given and reallocated in a manner that put people in the best possible position to get the job done. that is one of the national guard association awarded me the harry truman award because i was able to meet goals in terms of

equipment to get the services that are needed. that kind of reform takes place right now in the university. it to relative positions back into teaching, that is exactly what i was doing with the budget that we now have by reemphasize in the teachers in the classroom for the that is why the teachers supported me. they know that they are born to be able to actually treat -- teach children the with a need to be taught. >> i have a rebuttal? >> why is this the same issue right now about accountability? why are we still talking about how we are born to pay teachers? if that was done back in the 1970's and 1980's, then it should have been done back then and not now. if you're coming back now he wants to go back to where? i do not understand. we have to have some optimism in

regards to the race to the top. why? because it will address exactly what you just talked about in regard to teacher development and teacher evaluation. because of the collaboration that we have with the department of education and the executive branch and teachers coming together to put that grant together, we will have and evaluation system that makes our teachers accountable for achievement and congressional development. >> our next question comes from you to mr. aiona. >> you excepted free travel to religious convention in argentina. since you say that you respect the separation of church and state, will you now say that you will continue to hold prayer services in the governor's office if you are elected? >> prayer service that you're talking about is open to any

religion and in the denomination. it is always after hours and it is not on government time for it to whoever wants to be a part of that prayer is always invited and will come. i have always kept my faith in check. it has always been in the right context. i understand the context and the principles of separation of church and state. i have never crossed the line and i will continue as the governor of the state of -- as governor of this of hawaii. an will give anybody opportunity to pray. >> in your office? >> where ever they want to pray for it if it is a public office, they can do that if they wanted. >> i have no rebuttal. i respect the lieutenant governor's position. that has never been a topic of

conversation, either personally or otherwise. i think everybody's spiritual journey need to be respected. the fact that there may be some argument to the context and how that takes place, i suppose that has some role in public policy, if, in fact, there was a promotion of religion. i take the lieutenant governor at his word and i have respect for him. >> thank you, gentlemen. our next question is to both of you. in the furloughs expire on june 30. whoever wins next month will have two weeks. does your plan to include more public worker layoffs or extending the cuts? if not, where we find the money to make up the difference? >> you each of 90 seconds to

answer this. >> i am happy to be able to show you. my new day in hawaii plan is a reinvestment plan which is based on precisely the figures put forward. as he is aware, there was a presentation made by the administration to the state ways and means committee based on ravenous as of august. they show the likelihood of a small but steadily growing surplus.

there is nothing in the way of furloughs or layoffs. --auto that everyone understands -- that that we didn't we did to stimulate the economy and help people across the united states. there are-discretionary dollars there. i would like to help save the economy of hawaii we have to supplement that and i am prepared to work with the budget as indicated. those furloughs and laos can be avoided. >> what he is referring to is an update that was presented to the ways and means committee.

this is the main recommendations that were made. this leaves the salaries at its current level. furloughs are included in that. that is what we had to do for the last two years. we have to make these tough decisions. nobody wants to cut anybody's pay. it is the nature of what was happening at that point in time. this does include that in there. it includes the salaries being of the current level but it is there also was an assumption to health benefits. the only thing factored in is an increased enrollment. as far as that is concerned, in addition to furloughs, this is the focal issue. where are you going to find the money? you want to bring back programs

and you want to add people to various programs and agencies. if you want to do that, tell the people were you will get the money to not only cut the furlough, but you will bring back people. you'll cut services? that is not at this point in time. >> i will start with you, mr. aiona. >> it will be dictated. i would love to there is nothing that includes any layoffs. it has been rumored that i am going to cut jobs and i'm going to privatize. that is not going to happen. i want to bring everybody back. >> thank you, very much.

for mr. abercrombie, where are you picking up on this point? >> you just asked where it comes from you said that there were one to the furloughs. it never was included in the presentation. we're here for the first time tonight. you said that we built in furloughs and changes in the medical care system. i understand his dilemma. i am not want to try to catch him on anything. that is why this gives a very tricky. i will do this prioritizing that needs to be done. i will take the budget as it is presented.

>> where will that come from? >> you do not end up with a lack of prenatal care. you see to it that they put community health centers it cost the state hundreds of thousands of dollars. if you understand reporter were causing, as i have done in the state house, the city council required balanced budgets. >> we only have 30 seconds. >> that was just a redirect.

>> darrow has a question for both of you. each of you will have 90 seconds. >> here is an easy one. one of you too will sign off on the environmental impact statement. once you take office, how quickly can we expect to to do that? >> we will start with you, mr. aiona. >> i was just asked that today and i will let that process run. i will make my decision as quickly as possible. if the report says that this is economically feasible, i would have no problem signing off on that. this is not a state project, this is a city project.

that is of the points here. what is relevant is whether or not this product is financially feasible. but his first and foremost in my mind. >> all right, thank you, mr. aiona. >> it is not the job of the governor. it is not a project. the environmental impact statements are not there to stop projects, if they can be mitigated, if they did this, they are required to sign this report. the question is that there is no

reason to believe you do not pick and choose as to whether you like a law or not. can this project than get underway? some people think that was the case. it takes you to the next debt. that is where the new mayor and the new council, which has not been elected yet, comes into the picture. they have to decide whether or not they want to move into that states. -- and to that stage. >> just briefly, i did not quite get an answer. i understand what you are saying. >> of course i would sign an environmental and that statement. i have no reason to believe at

this stage that is not the case. >> have you read it? >> no. >> then how can you say that? >> i am sorry. maybe i understood -- maybe i misunderstood what you're saying. i read the executive summary environmental and that statement. it has taken all of the necessary legal steps. i have not read it from the point of view of whether i like the project or not. i have supported it in one form or another. that is not the issue. i have no reason to believe that legally it is not capable of being signed. whether the present governor was to say whether or not she thinks the financial side of it is adequate or not is a matter strictly to be decided on whether or not that conforms to what the law requires. >> thank you, mr. abercrombie. we have a question for both of you. you have 90 seconds each.

>> you bet that a few things in common. he promised to reform government and you have or had six-figure government salaries. mr. robert robbery, when you were in congress, made $67,000 a year as a congressman. each of your jobs included significant parts. but the view also double dip on top of that, collecting government pensions from previous government service. $25,000 for you, mr. abercrombie, and at least $25,000 for you, mr. aiona. can you tell us exactly how much you collect in taxpayer pensions, why you find it necessary to take that money, and how you can be trusted to reform a tax -- reform a retirement system from which you both benefit? >> i think you already decided what i believe is about the amount from the state.

i worked full-time as a legislator. aside from one or two jobs early on of short duration, i decided i in order not to have conflict of interest to give one -- to live on what ever salary was given to me as a state legislator. my pension is a result of my work. i was a public employee. i took and do take the pensions of duly as a public employee, the same as the congress of the united states. the salary you accept -- you are not allowed to have any other side income. i could not take another job as a member of congress. you used to be able to do that. i worked that job for two decades, just by the people 10 times about whether or not i was doing it well, and they take a

pension that was 1.7% of the height 3, which is pretty much fixed except for a small cost of living about. my pension as a congressman is at a smaller rate than any other federal public employee, 1.7%. that is, in fact, the work requirements of the job and i accepted it. i took no other outside income of any time -- of any kind. >> thank you. >> toward the $5,000 from your state pension, but are you taking the -- >> yes. i think it is between $3,900 a month after taxes. i pay taxes on it. >> $3,900 a month after taxes. if elected governor, would you continue to collect but to those

pensions on top of the governor's salary? >> i think as governor you have to make a choice as to whether you want to get into the system or not. i have to get financial advice as to what would be the best procedure. i would collect my throat pension as the result of the 20 years i worked as a federal employee. every penny i received is directly based on my work as a public employee. >> mr. ayalon up, you have 90 seconds. >> you have to correct the amount that you cited to me. i do not think it is anywhere near one of the $35,000. that is beside the point. >> what is it then? >> seriously, i do not know. i know it is not $135,000. i get about $36,000 from my pension.

i started getting get about 10 years ago when i retired. i firmly believe -- and was pursuant to the law. that was pursuant to our contract. i am a full believer in the pension rights for everybody employed in state government. it has to be enforced. we need to make sure we do not have an unfunded mandate when it comes to our pension fund. we are going to get to take that seriously. that is something that has a big hole in it. we are not the only state with that. we are about 65% of the fund. we want to make some tough decisions on how we will replenish it. i am open to what we need to do. we will probably have to take some excess funds and use some of that. we may have increased the amount we put into it. i cannot remember what that percentage is right now. these are things we will have to deal with. that is why i am committed to the contract and the laws

regarding pensions. >> thank you, gentlemen. our next question is for you, mr. abercrombie. >> you said you cannot raise the general excise tax. the department of early childhood and the hawaii energy authority -- given the state's budget crisis, specifically how would you pay for these two agencies. >> i do not understand why one thinks it is necessary to increase budgets in order to accomplish we ordering or we prioritizing within government. right now you have several agencies or early childhood is concerned. u.s. judiciary, you have health and human services, you have the department of education. what we need is an integrated approach to these activities so

that you do not have to have what i call a "stovepipe" approach where you separate these functions. the teacher needs to know that these children are homeless. the teacher needs to know if the parent is incarcerated. the parent needs to know its special needs are needed for the child that are in the hands of another agency. we need the capacity to have a leader in the governor and governorship that understands that if we rationalize how we provide these services and focus on the mission, that we can actually make more efficient and more effective use of the personnel we already have. let me give you a quick example. in human services, the personnel indicates to me that we can serve more people more efficiently with the personnel we have now by reordering the department. that comes from within. i have a lot of confidence that

it can be done. >> you are talking about setting up a new department. that requires some calls. >> no, what it requires is policy. we do not need more personnel. as a matter of fact, we may be able to reduce costs. with regard to early childhood, we are revitalizing the healthy start program that deals with prenatal care and see that children are prepared for their education. it will save money. i am confident that i can do it. i just want to get started and get the opportunity to put the government back in order. we will save money. we will not be adding money. >> rebuttal, mr. aiona. >> we do not create apartments by giving you the opportunity, we create departments by having a specific plan. that is what i have been tried to get out of mr. abercrombie.

you just mentioned something quite disturbing. he talked about some other departments and similar agencies within the judiciary. your boy to consolidate those two, to me specifically you are going to do that. this program for the dot. we'll put it together and have a new department of early childhood learning. show me the numbers. show me how it will be done. i do not think as a voter i want to give somebody the rains because they hope they can get there and get started. it is not a matter of what i can or hope, it is a matter of what are you going to do, especially during these very austere times when our budget is so fragile. we just talked about the pension fund. we just talked about collective bargaining. we have employees who not only what you have their jobs back, we have employees to do not want frills' anymore. we have to be very specific. >> at this point, we'll take a

two-minute break. but next is your turn. we are sorting to the questions that our viewers have submitted on-line. those questions for the candidates when we come back. but the back to the second half of tonight's's debate. the candidates in the race for the governor of the state of hawaii. our democratic challenger is neil abercrombie, former congressman from the first congressional district. they are debating the top issues of the race. right now, as we mentioned at throughout the debate, we are holding a livewire discussion. we are joined with some questions from our online participants. >> we have a lot of great questions. we promise some of the live wire debate.

some concern special education. we'll start with mr. aiona. you have 90 seconds to answer this question. mr. abercrombie, u.s. 67 is for a rebuttal. mr. aiona, this question comes from tammy. you should know that the increase in costs for the department of education has been a result of special education accommodating demands of parents of special needs students. what can you or what you do to cap this so special education stops taking funds from our general education students and exceeding funds allocated by schools. mr. aiona? >> thank you for that question. what you highlight is what this administration has accomplished with the last eight years. when we came into office we had a decrease. i am happy to say that we started the road to recovery in cutting some of these costs by dissolving that decree.

we are no longer subject to that decree. that does not mean that we are not subject to providing the services for our special needs students. we will continue to do that. but because we are not on the decree right now, we have are able to become much more efficient and effective in regards to treating the special needs of our students. i note that there are some parents and some guardians out there who are not happy with some of the results that have been made. it is something that we work on on a case by case basis. for the most part we have fulfill the needs of our special needs students and will continue to do so as effectively ending efficiently as we can. >> we have a rebuttal. 60 seconds, mr. abercrombie. >> this is less a orbital then it is a comment. i had the opportunity to serve briefly with a former senator

when he became the superintendent of schools as his assistant. one of my assignments was special education, working with the individual education plans to try to see to it that those children's needs were met. the problem that has occurred for all administrations, the administrations before that, was that the people who were put into special education actually expanded considerably. you ended up with people who were immigrants having language problems, but being considered as special education. that caused the expenses to go up. what we need is a concentration on that utilized in the federal programs now available to us to help augment and relieve the budget from that burden. >> de have our next question? the next question is for mr.

abercrombie. you have 90 seconds to answer. mr. aiona, you have 60 seconds for rebuttal. mr. abercrombie, how would you that had built the closing of a facility on the big island or would you have decided not to close it? what is your plan for prison overcrowding? >> again, what the elements of my background is being a probation officer and a officer of the court. i had experience dealing with recommendations on supervised probation. i have had experience as a member of the judiciary committee in the hawaii state legislature in dealing with the question of prisons, building them as well as how they are operated. testing for drug addiction. the argument as to whether it

should have remained open or not, i would have done everything to try to keep it open because i think prisoners should stay in the state. i do not think they should be set out of the state. i think that works against family reunification. it certainly works against rehabilitation and the capacity for the state not to have to continue to spend money on incarcerated prisoners, particularly overseas. when prisoners are sent to the correctional facilities on the mainland, it is $250,000 for the plaintiffs to take them there. i think everything should have been done to try to keep the prisoners in hawaii. that needs to be addressed by the next governor and legislature. >> in rebuttal, mr. aiona? >> my vision for the department of public safety and corrections is to not send anybody away from the state of hawaii. i want to develop more

community-based programs. the closure was a part of our financial crisis, but also a part of living in that direction in regards of having more committed deprograms ending more preventive up front, especially in this case with our young people. the transition will be to our huge challenge programs in the department of defense. that is a tremendous program for average students. it will expand the capacity for that. we have to be truthful. a lot of the kids who are in the youth challenge program are those who are potential of vendors and potential inmates in our prison system. if we can cut it off at that point in time, we will save prison space and fulfill my vision of not sending prisoners away and having more committee- based programs. >> gracias, mr. aiona.

>> we will post about responses on our newscast. >> thank you. we have another question. this one is for mr. aiona. >> the debate over equal rights for homosexuals has gotten confusing because we have been talking about a number of competing issues -- same-sex marriages, so unions, and don't ask don't tell. tonight, let's get back to the basic question that underscores all these arguments. do you think it is ok for government to discriminate against homosexuals? if so, why? yet not, is it ok for the government to discriminate against gay couples? >> absolutely not. we should not discriminate against anybody no matter what their gender is, no matter what their color is, no matter what. it that is the question, the answer is simple. no. that is not what we are talking

about. what we are talking about is hd44. as i have told you many times, we already have a lot that gives us the opportunity to address civil rights. billy that he would ask this question tonight, about the statute with me. in the reciprocal been a fisheries law it states "there for the legislature belief that certain rights and benefits presently available only to married couples should be made available to couples -- comprised of two individuals to our purview did -- who are prohibited from marrying one another. that is why i said hd44 is a marriage statute by another name, symbol unions. it says in the law that was passed, hd44 grants to partners

in a civil union all the rights under law as are granted to those who contract, obtain a license, and solemnize the marriage chapter. >> we have a rebuttal from mr. abercrombie. >> again, less able than an observation. the reason that 444 came forward is to try to implement precisely the language that the the to the governor read from the reciprocal benefits law. that is precisely what it was about. people were arguing that the reciprocal benefits law was not sufficient and that it was not able to be enforced in a way that allowed the benefits to be granted those civil rights otherwise guaranteed under the constitution. that was the object of 444.

because someone chooses to see 444 as attacking marriage as it presently exists does not make it so. it was not changing the definition of marriage in any way shape or form. it was there to implement the language that it in a governor cited. >> i think you both prove the point. it is very confusing. what it comes down to is a do you gentlemen believe that gay couples should have the same rights as a straight couples? the constitution says it is not marriage, but the same benefits. that is the question. >> if that is the case, yes. except for marriage. that was the issue. i point to the reciprocal beneficiary law. all you needed to do was a man

that. when it came to marriage, that is where people drew the line. this is where i said you should not let 25 senators, 51 legislatures, or what governor determined that. that is out to the people of hawaii. >> a gay couple having is insulate the same rights as married couples as long as you do not call it marriage in the legislation. >> it is not if you call it marriage, it is the institution of marriage. we have laws right now that address that. even in some of our family court laws in regards of adoptions and guardianships, they had that opportunity to have some of those rights, responsibilities, and benefits. but when you talk about marriage, that is the key. >> thank you very much, gentlemen. it is time for our closing statements. each of you have 90 seconds. will begin with mr. aiona. >> i want to thank paul and the

panel for this opportunity. i thank all of you out there who are watching for the privilege of serving you for the last eight years as your lieutenant governor. it has been an awesome experience. i have been humbled and privileged to serve as a lieutenant governor. you can see the differences between myself and my opponent. often say on one issue comes down to fiscal responsibility. my policy is to spend within your means. policy is toie's grow government. i have been going around the state and talking to many people. they have been saying, "are you going to forget that we exist out here?: " i will not forget you.

i want you to know that i will not forget the little things. the reason i will not forget the little things is because of something that happened today. as the parent of a father of four, the little things in life. you learn about the late nights. you learn about the colts. my daughter is in college right now. i have been grumbling to my wife and saying that she has not been calling or testing recently. i have been upset about that. i have been feeling sorry for myself. today i got a text that said, "hi, daddy." i will not forget those little things in life. god bless you all and thank you again for tuning in. >> mr. abercrombie? >> thank you very much and thank you to all our good friends of the panel. i think the lieutenant governor has stated it very well.

if you have a clear choice here. we do agree on that. i believe that we can either have more of the same, the same kind of approach we have had for the past eight years. the lieutenant governor has made very clear he was to continue to take that same approach, or we can move in a new direction. we can embrace change. i found interesting today that the "star advertiser said that "the lieutenant governor's goal is to extend the policies and practices of the former administration. we want voters to cast their vote for abercrombie. that is what the change of direction in the state is all about. we want to see the status quo

change. we want to see energy independence. we want to see environmental sustainability. we want to see a future for hawaii which is more than real- estate speculation. your vote is an act of faith. it is an act of trust. we will respect that trust and honor that faith. running for governor is a very, very serious piece of business. i will not let you down. brian will not let you down. you can count on us. >> cross is very much gentlemen. that concludes our debate. get al and vote on november 2. it is right around the corner. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> a look at how candidates are addressing economic issues in these elections. then, a discussion about republican education policies with jennifer marshall.

we will also tella tonthony webb about pension and retirement savings. that is live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> which just days till election day, follow the key races and candidates on c-span with debates every night and go on line to view archived debates at the c-span video library. visit our politics pays for candidate's campaign ads and other resources. this weekend, see the jon stewart/stephen colbert rally. we will open our phone lines for your comments about the campaigns. although election coverage right through election day. >> next, a new hampshire senate debate between paul hodes and republican kelly in it. the candidates are running to replace the republican senator

who is retiring. this race is rated planes republican. this debate is part of the granite state debate series organized by a tv station in manchester. it is about one hour. [applause] quite good evening everyone and welcome to the fourth and final night of the granite state the dates being held at st. as low

college. tonight we will hear from two major candidates. for the most part, candidates will get one minute to respond to each question. four major topics we may expand that to 90 seconds. will also allow 30 sector rebuttals as we see fit. most questions will come from the three panelists. it will also have questions from viewers and readers e-mail's. there will be a round of questions for the candidates to each other. our candidates have had their position is determined by a drawling earlier this afternoon. they are republican kelly ayotte and democratic challenger paul hodes. we ask the audience to hold their applause to about the discussion. at this time, we would like to ask them to welcome the candidates. [applause]

let's get to our first question. it is directed at ms. ayotte. >> other than sheer anger at the democrats, why should voters put republicans back in control of congress? will it result in a country that is any better shape economically than what democrats inherited in 2009? >> i have never run for political office before. there were times republicans spent too much in this country as well. we have a $13 traded debt. it is not a republican or democratic issue. it is an american issue. we have to cut back the spending

in washington and get our fiscal house back in order because this generation is poised to be the first generation to not allow our children and grandchildren to have the same opportunities that we have had. it is why i am running. i will have get to my own party if they want to spend too much money. >> mr. hodes, the vice president says that voters are angry at democrats. do you agree with him when he says that this is a referendum on anchor and democrats will lose? >> i do not think the voters are angry at any particular party. i think they are angry at what does not work in washington. i have been there long enough to see what is broken, but nobody has gotten their hooks into me. what is important is the simple choices that face the voters. are we going to go back to the policies of borrow, spend, and waste that drove us into record deficits of $1.30 trillion?

will we be able to come together as a nation to move forward to cut rates and invest in america again? my opponent was to go back to the same policies that douglas into the hole we are trying to get out of. that we cannot do. we have to go forward. it will be a simple choice. are you on the side of the people or are you on the side of the special-interests? that is a prescription for another disaster. >> the candidates will have neither side is to respond. we will go first to mr. hodes. >> the national unemployment rate remains near 10%. what bills will sponsor to help create jobs? >> you know, i think it is up to business to create jobs. what is critical is for government to set the policies that enable businesses to create jobs. i will not vote for tax cuts

for multi millionaires and billionaires that will drive our deficit $700 billion deeper into the hole. i favor tax cuts for middle- class families and working families. that is why i voted for the recovery act which contains the biggest middle-class tax cut in history. it is critical that we help small businesses, not get tax breaks to multinationals to what to ship our jobs overseas. that is why it is important that we provide research and development credits for small businesses who want to create jobs here. we need to help small businesses with tax help to hire people who are unemployed. that is the prescription we need to fix our -- to help our small businesses. that is all we will rebuild the middle class on a firm foundation. >> i come from a small business family. my husband has a landscaping and snow plowing business. the last thing we should be doing right now is raising taxes, yet that is what

congressman hodes wants to do. when he talks about putting this tax cuts expire, let's call it what it is. it is keeping tax rates stable at the time we face a difficult challenge nationally. those tax rates affect small businesses in this country. half of the business and, in this country employ 25% of the workers in this country. we need to lower taxes on our small businesses, cut to be burdensome regulations from washington, like the 1099 form that all small business owners will have to file with the purchase goods over $600. does of the types of measures that washington does to get in the way of people who create the jobs in this country. that is the small business owners. >> ally in the world are tax cuts for multi millionaires and billionaires that drive our deficit $700 billion deeper into the hole going to help our economy? how will it help our deficit? what is it do for our small

businesses? the fact is that only 3% of small and compilers would be affected by sane and reasonable tax rates. we need to help the middle class and help small businesses. how will that possibly create jobs in this country by helping multimillionaires? >> congressman hodes, i understand what you want more money to be spent in washington. your record of spending is one -- the deficit has increased over 5%. the national debt has gone from eight trillion dollars to $13 trillion. what i would like to do is keep money in people's pockets here in new hampshire. the tax increases he wants to vote for are the ones you will cost people here in new hampshire $300 million. that is just the impact on small businesses. >> the next question is directed for ms. ayotte. >> along those lines, most

economists believe troop economy starts with the housing market. prices are down 30% to 40% since the big. right now nine out of 10 new mortgages are backed by the government. to what extent should the government increase or decrease its role at this point? >> i thing we have to get our economy back moving. that will help the housing market. that is creating a positive climate for businesses with lower taxes and less regulations. but when it comes to the housing market, we need to address fannie mae and freddie mac. congressman who's sat on the financial services committee and to donations from danny nee and freddie mac. the financial reform bill did not address fannie mae and freddie mac. i have seen a recent report that says one of the $24 billion may have to go to sustain freddie mae and freddie mac. we have to adjust that so we do

not keeping our taxpayer dollars into it and really get a vibrant private housing market going with our economy. >> what is critical here is that we stop the abuses that led to the crisis in the housing market. i voted against the wall street bailout because i said we needed to help small businesses and needed to do with the foreclosure problems at the beginning, not waiting until now. we should have done it when that was 20% of the subprime market that had not affected the rest of the market. now we need even stronger reforms. my opponent wants to repeal wall street reform. she favors policies that would allow wall street to run wild again and do to us what they did before. barney frank and i do not see eye to eye. i do think we should have done something about fannie and freddie earlier. as the united states centered, all make sure we put in place regulations that make sure homeowners are not disadvantaged. >> first of all, that is false.

he sat on the committee that had the opportunity to address that in may and freddie mac. rather than doing that, you to do nations from them. when it comes to looking bored and addressing these issues, you have voted consistently with barney frank and nancy pelosi 94% of the time instead of voting for people here in new hampshire. >> we will get back to that very shortly. we're going to move onto a part of the campaign concerning television advertisements. not everybody likes them. ms. ayotte, will start with one of your campaign ads. it calls out your, your jig it calls out your opponents' claims. >> paul those commercials are funny. paul became a fiscal conservative about 20 minutes ago. >> hodes voted for obama care and continues to raise taxes.

>> you know host worst of it? >> pose a bloated with nancy pelosi 94% of the time. -- hodes fenty with nancy pelosi 94% of the time. >> it is about real fiscal responsibility. that means cutting wasteful spending. that is why i supported the budget constraints on discretionary spending. that is why i gave up your marks. that is why i say every congressman, senator, a president should take a 10% pay cut. i proposed an energy plan that has a $100 billion in cuts. a conservative organization points out that i am the only member of the congressional organization that proposed an overall cut to the federal budget. my opponent was to get tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires that would drive our deficit $700 billion deeper

in the hole. that deficit digging policy is a prescription for disaster and it is wrong. >> take 30 seconds and justify what the ad was fair in your opinion. >> the national taxpayers union gave you an f three years in a row because you have not one- stop our taxpayer dollars. that advertisement was accurate because since congressman hodes has been in congress, he has voted for 9000 in march. he voted for the automobile bailouts, he voted for the insurance bailouts, he voted for the stimulus package that has not been effective in growing private sector jobs. he also -- the deficit has increased 500% since he has been in congress. if the is a fiscal conservative, does that mean that the policy is a fiscal conservative? we are in trouble.

>> going back to the advertisement for a second, it mentions three bills he voted for -- the health care bill, the stimulus package, and the automobile bill out. were those fiscal conservative votes? >> absolutely. there fiscally conservative votes. when president clinton handed over to president bush, he left the surplus as far as the eye could see. when president bush headed to president obama, there was a $1.30 trillion deficit. the economy was in free fall in 2009. the recovery act was necessary to prevent a second great depression. the congressional budget office tells us that health care reform is going to save us $1 trillion in the deficit over the long term. that is real money. it is absolutely critical. for the automobile bailouts, one in 10 bailouts -- one in 10 jobs depend on the automobile

industry. >> we have to move on. we will come back to this. we will move on to what was one of the first ads of your campaign. it attacks ms. ayotte. >> it was the biggest ponzi scheme in new hampshire history. [unintelligible] two days before she resigned, she made sure her e-mail's were erased. >> he basically said this has been dirty politics, but at the defendant claims in that advertisement? >> factcheck.org said the claims made in that ad were false. ba has been criticized by union leaders. as many of you know, my e-mail

have been released. i fully testify before the legislature on this matter. i have been open and transparent about it. >> stain focused, mr. hodes, why is it fair? >> she says she was a prosecutor, not a politician. when it came to frm, she let the people of new hampshire down. she and her office failed to investigate and prosecute this game. just before leaving office, she issued a directive that wanted her e-mail's erased. what we found was bite -- as far back as 2006, she was using her public office to springboard her

personal political career. that was a sad day for the attorney-general's office. it was a sad day for justice in new hampshire. she was playing politics in her public office as far back as 2006. i think it is a matter of integrity, credibility. >> first of all, that is absolutely false. i served the people of this state as attorney general for five years. i worked very closely with all enforcement and i can tell you that the lead detective in the manchester police that worked with me think the claims you have made are absolutely despicable. they know that my only concern in that case was to make sure justice was done. that was my concern as the attorney general of our state were not prosecuted politicians from both parties that engaged in illegal acts. i took the duties of attorney general very seriously and i will take the duties if i am

elected to serve the united states seriously as well. >> what you think it says about your management style and leadership qualities that this case did not make it to your desk? your predecessor said mistakes were made. your successor has said departments were made in the department of justice. you have never suggested in any way that you believe any mistakes in this matter were made by the department of justice. what you not agree with that? >> i fully testified on this matter before the legislature. what became clear is that the legislature in 2002 removed jurisdiction over banking and securities matters from the consumer protection bureau. when i testified, i said reinstate that jurisdiction. make sure this does not happen again. that was the focus when i testified. i think that needs to be the focus going forward. >> we are going to move into our

first round of candidate to candidate questions. it's one will get 36 to ask a question at their opponent will get nine seconds to respond. mr. rose has the first question directed to ms. ayotte. >> it is well known that you had been endorsed by sarah pailin. u-boat's share extreme views that all four -- you both share extreme abuse that fall far out of step of new hampshire voters. can you name three areas where you disagree with srara palin? >> i received our endorsement. i was proud to have our endorsement along with those of many others in the state including our sheriffs and law enforcement. i can tell you that during the presidential campaign, she supported the tarp bailouts. i would not have supported that.

she has also said that she would support a federal marriage amendment. i think marriage is a issue that should be left to the state. >> ms. ayotte, a question for mr. hodes? >> you have one of the worst attendance records in congress, missing more than 100 votes since announcing that you're running for the senate. earlier this year you missed a vote on unemployment benefits. when you were asked by a newspaper when he missed the vote, he refused to answer even though you had posted a video of the day before on your website saying you're going to las vegas. where were you and why we do not tell the taxpayers of this state who you work for where you work? >> as i have said on a number of kept occasions, it was campaign season and that was unfortunately out to state. i had a scheduling conflict. the vote result was already

predetermined. the real point here is where we stand for people on unemployment insurance? i voted to make sure people got that help three times. three times ms. ayotte opposed help for people who needed unemployment insurance. i think it is important to help folks who are working, faults in the middle class to have lost their jobs and need help. that is why i supported unemployment insurance. my record is 96% in congress. i am proud of my record. i am a better buy votes. i am especially proud of standing up for those who need unemployment help as opposed to offer tax cuts to multimillionaires to are just going to hurt our deficit $700 billion. given the recession we are in, ms. ayotte and her party continue to oppose health for

those who need it at the time of such great distress. that is the real issue here. i support unemployment benefits. she opposes extending unemployment benefits for those who need help. >> you have the 371st worst record in congress appeared bit by at the promise -- if i had the privilege of serving, i will be there to vote on behalf of the people of new hampshire. my only point with unemployment benefits is that we need to pay for them. we cannot continue to pass programs in washington without paying for them. >> we will try to come back to this. we have to go. it is tied for one of our viewer questions. candidates will have 60 seconds to respond. i would prefer a more independent senator. can you give me an example of a major issue were your position differs from your party's

position? ms. ayotte, or purse. >> i think independence is very important. as attorney general of our state, i have worked with legislators on both sides of the aisle to make sure our children are protected from internet and sexual predators, to make sure tough laws are in place to deal with drug dealers. when it comes to breaking with my party in washington, republicans have asked for in march as well as democrats. i will stand up to my party on that issue because i think that process has been used in many instances to not only add to our deficit, but also for the bridges to nowhere. we had to stop and get our fiscal house in order. >> i have broken with my party on a number of occasions. i vote with my party when they are right, but i will not when they are wrong. i oppose the wall street bailout because i did not think it was good for middle-class families and working people. i did not want to see the ceos of wall street rewarded.

today it is those wall street ceos who are behind the ads that are tried to buy these elections. but flood our airways in support of my opponent. those are the sea as she was to get multimillion-dollar tax breaks pydna there is not a justice department investigation and to pay for play that links between air marks and contributions. that was happening in my own party. i were to cross the aisle to make sure an investigation started. i am a strong supporter of second amendment rights, which is something my party is generally opposed to be -- generally opposed to. i think there have certainly been occasions when senator gramm has taken positions at work in a bipartisan way which

i have appreciated. not lately, however. there have been instances, unfortunately, for example senator gregg back a deficit commission. i take a bipartisan deficit commission is a good idea. my opponent opposes her old mentor, senator gregg, on a deficit reduction commission. i think senator gregg has done a good job on being a watchdog about fiscal responsibility. >> ms. ayotte, the same question for you. >> first of all, i think there have been some measures on tax reform. i think it is important that we reform our tax code. it has become so complicated. the only person who benefits from our tax code are lawyers,

accountants, and irs agents. we need to simplify our tax code. let me be clear. senator gregg, i am brought to have his endorsement, but we do not necessarily need a commission to do the work of congress. congressman hodes, when he has been in congress, has continued to vote for spending bill after spending bill rather than do the job of congress, which is to put together a balanced budget. he voted to adjourn without a budget for this country. >> we had to get back to our panel. the next question is for ms. ayotte. >> on immigration, there are illegal immigrants in this country coming across the southern border. you classify this as an invasion. the still feel that way now? >> i think we have to address illegal immigration in this

country. if you look at what arizona has gone through, that is an invasion. to have a rancher or was killed on his own property, to help people kidnapped and drug dealers in the street. we have had people coming over our borders, some of them who do not have the best intentions in mind. we need leadership in washington. we do -- we need to enforce our immigration laws and hold people accountable. we need to make sure that the people working diligently to come in line and contribute to this country employed by the rules, we are a country of immigrants. they have the means to do that and to come here and participate legally. >> mr. hodes? >> what would you do about the millions of immigrants already in this country? >> i would not want to see

unconstitutional arizona type lawless come to new hampshire. ms. ayotte supports what is an unconstitutional law in arizona. it is one of the symptoms of a broken up washington that a comprehensive immigration reform bill has not yet been signed into law. we need comprehensive immigration reform. we need to enforce the laws of the book to make sure employers are not hiring illegal aliens. i have a did a number of times for increased border security. we need to secure our borders. we need to make sure there is a comprehensive approach to making sure those who are here illegally give to the back of the line. they should learn english. we should weed out the criminals and they should pay fines and penalties. we have a broken bureaucracy in terms of immigration. it has got to be reformed so that people can follow a path to employ -- a path to citizenship.

>> he supports an administration that has helped sued arizona. instead of sending reinforcements and assistance that arizona needs -- let's talk about what that law is. that is a lot where if a police officer for some other purpose stops someone and ask for their identification, it is something close to federal law. arizona had to act because the federal government has failed to act to secure our borders and keep people here is safe. >> it was felt to be unconstitutional by a federal judge. do you support what is still an unconstitutional law? >> i think that federal judge was wrong on that issue. this is a lot that is very similar to federal law. it is one that arizona had to pass to protect its citizens. i am propaganda it will be upheld. >> we are going to move forward

now. >> congressman, we went to afghanistan nearly nine years ago to take all allocated. some -- to take out al qaeda. fighters had been crossing over the border to attack our troops in afghanistan. should the u.s. military be involved in strikes inside pakistan? >> it is critical that we keep moment is pressure on terrorism. it is critical. the heartbeat of al qaeda is, as you say, probably located on the border of pakistan. that is what the attempt has been to attempt a failed state in afghanistan and prevent the spread of terrorist from pakistan into afghanistan. we need to reassess our counter insurgency shatters the in light of what has been going on with the karzai government. the president has been very

clear about pursuing terrorists wherever they may be. we are pursuing a very effective program in pakistan that has severely disrupted al qaeda in pakistan. but we have other problems. we have al qaeda in somalia and yemen. in addition to chasing terrorists, we have to also chased them in other parts of the world. >> i am part of a military family. my husband sought -- mice husband served in the iraq war. it is important that we reach out terrorists wherever they are. if they are within the pakistan government working with that government, if they are in pakistan, unfortunately al qaeda has been operating at times within pakistan. we have to do what ever we can to stop them. one thing we should not do is treat terrorist like common criminals. we certainly should not be trying terrorist in the york city, the ones that committed