>> i just want to point out that thperson he was talking about, rocky, was also a graduate of the u.s. military academy, and we have some distinguished graduates with us here today, including general mike conrad. general conrad brought to us the color guard from the 82nd airborne, and the first calvary division. let's give a big hand to the color guard. [applause] >> one of our close advisers is with us today, who is the ceo of a major corporation. at this time, we will begin reiss lane, and while the wreaths are laid at the wall,

chris jackson will perform "amazing grace. the name of his father and law is actually -- father-in-law, is actually in grade on the wall -- engraved on the wall. once these are actually placed at the memorial, we will be able to listen to taps. ♪ >> so, department of interior, national parks service, vietnam's better memorial fund,

vietnam -- veterans memorial fund, a vietnam women's memorial foundation, a goldstar mothers are coming down, followed by the gold star wives of america, sons of daughters in touch, as well are starting to walk right now. they are followed on the other side by the 82nd airborne division. take a look at some of these wreaths. they are kind of neat. it is the first cavalry division. that is the patch they wear on their uniform. the american legion is here. amvets, as well. we move forward. disabled american veterans, military order of the purple heart -- they have the cool breeze. paralyzed veterans of america placing a wreath.

the f.w. of the united states. veterans of foreign wars have given us $1 million for the education gentle. -- education center. vietnam veterans of america is here. we will get it done, eventually, and we also have the fourth infantry division, searchlights, case on veterans are actually here today, lining up. it is quite a beautiful photograph. actually, when i will do after the ceremony is get these guys to stand in place for you who would like to take a photograph. it is a nice thing to take home. the 199 flight infantry is here. i was with them and wounded many years ago. the military veterans motorcycle club is here. if we want to thank them and

harley-davidson for all the help they have given us. operation freedom bird, the guys >> the advisory board for horizon and the fifth cavalry. they are moving for a reported 25th infantry division and u.s. mv-mce, the 27th infantry will towns are moving into position as we speak and the ninth infantry division is hair. the 101st airborne would never miss a great opportunity like this to have a great wreath. the 82nd chapter. these are the wreaths that have been placed at the memorial. at this time, please stand as you are for the playing of 'taps,'

♪ [taps] ♪ [taps] ♪ [taps] ♪ [taps] ♪

>> ok, well, you can't just remained seated if you like. mill around a little bit until the park police honor guard has left the walkway area they are sort of moving in position. i know a lot of you with cell phones and lyall cameras nowadays, you like to take that big shot and here is a really nice picture that you can send back to your relatives back,. there are some really beautiful wreaths and the conditions are perfect that concludes today ceremony. thank you for coming. [applause] [no audio]

>> alaska officials have begun counting 92,500 ballots. several thousand more, the republican candidate who is backed by the tea party. the associated press reports an early tally of 19,203 ballots shows 89% of them are undisputed hormuz -- for miss murkowski. speakers include the director of the national park service, chairman of the national world war two memorial, and knote speaker from the u.s. army material commander. this is just over 45 minutes. >> they were handed the responsibility of saving democracy and asked again to end

or more. many of them were women, some of the end of this first hand because you are here today. women veterans of world war two, we are honored to have you with us. the served with bravery, character, who did this sometimes on glamorous had an absolutely crucial work to keep the war effort going. the national parks is privileged to host this event in your honor. it is fitting that the keynote speaker is the first four-star general in the military. the director of the center is another in a long line of accomplished military women, and inspiration to others and a testament to those in the armed

forces. and the chairman of the international world war two memorial, the only cosponsor of today's event and worked with the national park service to ensure that this memorial and these services are held as both intended. and the defining events of the twentieth century. use the have traveled here today to honor us with your presence, not just the women veterans of world war two, but the women

that punched in, did without, and went unrecognized and carried the load on the home front until the contest was settled. we are gathered here today to recognize all of you, and especially those women that made the ultimate sacrifice. let us pause for a moment of silence to remember them. thank you, welcome, and may god bless all of us. [applause] >> ladies and gentlemen, we will hear remarks from the chairman of the board of the national world war two memorial.

>> we just can't thank you enough to be with us on this very special day. you are the ideal person for our keynote speaker. a special welcome to all of our distinguished guests. we have so many guests that come to help. ladies and gentlemen, especially our honored guest today, the world war two veterans and especially the women who served in world war two. [applause] >> today, we remember all veterans in all of our wars and also, we want to remember those who are serving in active duty today.

and the heroes that came to see the memorial, some of them for the very first time. you make this very special by flying in this morning and being with us. [applause] we also have another special group of heroes with us. we have women that served in world war two that live in the armed services retirement, here in washington. we think that group for being here with us this morning as well. [applause] think you'll for coming and taking part in this various federal -- very special veterans day ceremony. as we all know, all across america, people are gathering to

pay tribute to our veterans and the men and women that are serving in our armed forces today. we pause to remember and honor the contributions of all veterans who have always answered our nation's call to duty. we should remember every day the gift of our veterans, the gift that they gave us. and that is a strong, free, and beautiful america that we are privileged to call home. and we owe them a debt that we can never repay. on this veterans day, at this very special place, we have chosen to remember the women who served in world war two. women have always played a critical in securing our independence and defending our freedom. women have served our nation in

peace and war since the war of independence and the beginning of this nation. they are among our nation's greatest heroes. women volunteered in large numbers to serve in the armed forces, and that was not easy in those days. and they volunteered to serve on the home front, in the factories, the defense plants. they piloted aircraft, and especially, they kept the home fires burn here at home. and they burned brightly as they ran the homes, the farms, the business, took care of the children who took care -- our speaker today has built her career on the legacy of those great heroes who we honor at the ceremony. as you already heard, the

general and as our nation's first four-star female general. her career has been built on nothing but very tough and demanding jobs, one after the other. her current assignment is one of the most challenging command jobs that we have in the army, is challenging and peacetime, and is even more so in wartime. i have served in that command. i am extremely proud of her and all of her accomplishments. she symbolizes to we honor today, the great women that served our nation and especially in world war two. it is a privilege to serve on the board. this is a nonprofit organization that works very closely and very

proudly with the nation's park service, and also with the military district of washington to plan the events like this one to assist in sharing the sacred memorial with our world war two veterans enhance your families. we also want to share this with all america to and want to make sure that we remember the lessons in the history of the great war. most of the founders of this organization are former members of the american battle monuments commission. they served on the memorial site in design selection committee. and they literally put their heart and soul in making this memorial a reality for the world war two veterans, and they fought extremely hard to put it on this piece of sacred ground. behind me, 4048 gold stars on

the freedom wall. each one of these stars represents 100 fallen u.s. service members. those who never returned home to their families. to the gold star mothers, the goldstar father, the goldstar spouses, the goldstar children, and the goldstar families that no better than most of the price of freedom. america's greatest heroes are resting under the head stunts at arlington national cemetery, and other cemetery is located near battlefields all around the world and all across this nation, this world war two memorial enshrines the memory of all who serve in that war. these gold stars remind us that

they gave all of their tomorrows for our freedom. and we should remember that freedom comes at a very high price, and will never be free. the greatest generation who fought the most destructive war in history. approximately 60 million people lost their lives all over the world. mostly those that were overrun by the war. millions were murdered in concentration camps, death camps, and prisoner of war camps. the greatest generation overcame great odds. there was no certainty that we would win that war. and they not only save this nation, but this generation literally save the world. as we reflect on their sacrifice, let us remember the

unity that this monument represents, and the spirit of america that shone so brightly in a dark world on the days of world war two. this memorial will help us ensure that that spirit continues to burn brightly, lighting the path for our children and our grandchildren. they will be the leaders of the land of the free and the home of the brave. god bless all of our world war two veterans, all of our veterans, and all of our service members today and their families. god bless america, and thank you so much for helping us remember , honor, and thank our veterans. [applause] >> ladies and gentlemen, we are very grateful to have with us some members of the united

states air force brass quintet that will perform a musical salute to our veterans. ♪

[applause] ladies and gentlemen, is my pleasure to introduce the director for center of women veterans, the department of veterans affairs. [applause]

>> i want to introduce the general. she is first and foremost a crowd of soldiers that has served our nation with great distinction for 35 years. she is currently the commanding general of the u.s. army materiel command, one of the largest commands and the army. with more than 70,000 soldiers impacting 49 states and 144 countries around the world. since her first assignment in 1976, as a platoon leader, she has commanded at every level. during the persian gulf war, she

was the division parachute officer. later, she was the first woman to command a battalion in the eighty second airborne division. as commander in distribution command, from 2002-2004, she guided the largest deployment of the u.s. forces since world war two in support of operation iraqi freedom. she is the first woman in the u.s. military to achieve the rank of a four-star general. ladies and gentlemen, i would like to introduce our speaker for today. [applause]

>> midmorning. what an honor it is for me to be here with you today. i am so grateful that we live in a country that takes time to pause and reflect and pay tribute to our veterans. because it is our veterans that have always given us and continue to give us the gift of freedom. how while veterans day is only formally recognized once a year, we must never forget how blessed we are to live in freedom every singlday. now for me. this place, this day holds a very personal meetin at -- meaning for me. it brings to life a story about

a soldier. isolde that is very special to me. this soldier graduated from west point in 1943. not long after his graduation, this young soldier found himself on the battlefield of europe, serving with the fourteenth armored division, leading an equally young group of soldiers fighting along the french and german border. in january of 1945, the soldier was severely wounded. the tank he was in the glow of. he was so seriously injured that he almost lost a leg. but like many of you, he is a true fighter on the battlefield and off. fortunately, he recovered. he was awarded the purple heart, and he continued to serve. in 1951, the soldier commanded

the third battalion regiment during the korean war. he was awarded the distinguished service cross for valor and another purpleheart. and he continued to serve. in 1971, that same soldier commanded the mechanized brigade in vietnam. like some of you, he is a proud war veteran. there is no one more proud of him than me. the soldier was my father. [applause] and i am even prouder to report that he is 91 years old. [applause] right after the ceremony, i am

flying down to see him in florida. of a better way to spend a veterans day with all of you and then with my very own world war two that. i want to thank the friends of the national world war two immoral to make -- for making this ceremony possible. i want to thank all of the distinguished military and civilian guests here, including some many representatives from the great veterans association. thank you for being here and thank you for sharing this very special veterans day. some of our most distinguished guests have come a long way. thank you for giving our veterans the opportunity to come from around the country to see their memorial.

[applause] this is an inspiring memorial, and it is a tribute to 60 million americans who wore the uniform during the second world war. it is also a reminder of the triumph of the american spirit. because of what the american group bid for all of us, your children, your grandchildren, they now call you the greatest generation, a title you have well learn and one he will hold forever. like i said a moment ago, today's ceremony and veterans day recognition is very special. they are from the first

commanding general of the u.s. women's army corps, and they read, women that stepped up were measured as citizens of the nation, not as women. this was the people's war and everyone was in it. on this special day, we are here to remind ourselves that half of the greatest generation where women. and more than 350,000 of them served in uniform during the second world war. they served as marines. they served at home and around the globe. if you are one of these proud women, wearing our nation's uniform during world war two, stand or wave your hand so we can say thank and recognize you. [applause]

thank you all for your service to our country. today, we also want to recognize all the people that served in many other ways, every bit as vital to the nation's victory. including the thousands of women that took government jobs, the 3.5 million women that volunteered for the american red cross, the tens of thousands of women that volunteered with the uso, and the 19 million american when -- when that went to work in industries. -- american women that went to work in industries. and when to recognize the millions of more that raised children and kept families together during shortages, and

some very tough times. women like my own mom. i know she is here in spirit. she was with my dad every step of the way. she might not have carried a rifle, but she carried a very heavy sack filled with responsibilities that came with being head of the household while the loved ones were overseas. if you were one of those women that were there supporting our nation at war, stand and raise your hands so we can say thanks and recognize you as well. [applause] eleanor roosevelt once said, he must do those things you think you cannot do, and we're

surrounded by women that truly did the things that so many thought they could not do. they helped us put the brake in the greatest generation. this memorial is as much theirs as it is anyone's, and they couldn't be prouder to honor the mall on this great veterans day. today, i say god bless all of our veterans, god bless our women veterans, and never forget our deployed men and lemon. pray for their success in their safe return. have a wonderful american day. [applause] >> i invite you to rise for the presentation to honor all of the veterans. it will just take a moment to let them get into position.

>> you can watch more veterans day ceremonies tonight starting at 8:00 eastern on c-span. congress returns to session on monday, it is a lame-duck session. members are expected to do some legislative work. they will work on federal spending and there is likely to be debate on bush administration tax cuts that expired january 1. the reserve university hosted a series of panels on war and peace. this was about the challenges of integrating wounded veterans into society. this is just over two hours.

>> welcome, everybody. i was giving us a few extra minutes to settle in. we will start now. i am in the philosophy department. i work with shannon at the reserve university. we have a very important panel, the recovery and integration of our combat veterans. this is a complicated panel, and even at the level of its construction. we have different audiences that this panel might speak to. there are many combat veterans here that no -- that no too well

what the panel concerns. they're people coming into adulthood that might not know much at all about what the panel involves many conceptions and misconceptions about this topic. it is a complicated panel because we want to be able to speak to all of the audiences that really matter. it will help with the insights of the practical experts that

understand the gravity of citizenship and the complexities that arise when we try to get on with business as usual in our society. and finally, in so far as the panel is becoming part of the public's fear -- a public sphere through media. we want to paint a picture of this issue that is not a simplistic or overly optimistic. it has what genuine hope there could be in it, and which is faithful to the complexity of the experiences surrounding healing. so i say that as a preface to set the tone and help us

understand why there might be different levels to the conversation. some feel it is too simple or basic. others might feel that it is too abstract. we will all try to negotiate that. the key to doing so is your participation. the standard format for panels is something like an hour of the various experts talking together around focus questions followed by an hour of question and answer from the floor. we all agree that it would be most helpful sooner rather than later to find out what you will find useful from this panel. knowing from lecturing that something between 30 and 45 minutes is about the tolerance level who in the -- level any sane brain has, i will cut it

closer to 45, or between 30 and 45 minutes. we will really appreciate your questions from the floor. we will work it out from there. joining me from today, i will go down the row from right to left. dr. stone has been employed at the va mc as a psychotherapist working with combat veterans and other veterans.

she has done research on psd -- ptsd and its treatment. she worked at the hospitals in the anxiety disorders program and doing research in psychotherapy. next to her, acting both as a platoon sergeant and a platoon leader in two different light infantry units. during the tour, upon returning to the states, i spent 18 months and participated in many funerals for soldiers the participated in vietnam. he found college life stifling.

imagine that. he went to work as in our breasts -- a arborist. he also studied martial arts earning a fifth level black belt. should problems arise appear -- [laughter] he also lead sweat lodges and traveled extensively throughout the country by motorcycle. he does individual counseling as an integrated worker. he has thought long and deeply about the lives of combat veterans, especially how they are irretrievably changed by their experience. next is an epidemiologist with a career interest in mental health and second -- a focus on post-traumatic stress disorder and psychological adjustment

following trauma. since his time at the australian agent orange study in the early 1980's, he subsequently initiated half and led a health study of many returned servicemen and women and australia. he was an author of the first evaluation report on the fledgling vietnam veterans' counseling service and subsequently was invited to become a member of the department of veterans affairs for 18 continuous years. with funding from the australian national health council, he completed a follow-up study of the vietnam veterans of three decades after the war and has completed a field work for a study of veterans' wives and partners from which preliminary results are now emerging.

jason is the integrated officer at the center for biomedical ethics where he serves as a clinical ethicist. he has served as the chair in professional ethics at the united states air force academy. his book, "terrorism and a just war tradition." it includes four years in the united states to force as a military working dog handler. it includes the reintegration of military members into civilian life on experiences of patients

in the health care system. max is the aurth -- arthur professor of law and of biomedical ethics in the school of medicine. the professor practice law in washington d.c.. he specialized in health care and medical technology. he has authored seven books and numerous articles on subjects including the ethical, legal, and social implications on the advances of human genetics. that is the relationship of medical malpractice reform. last but not least, christine has worked with individuals with learning differences.

cognitive, emotional, social, behavioral. she collaborates on methods to improve quality of life for individuals and their family. she worked at quality living inc. in nebraska from 1997 to may 2001. first as an intern, then as assistant director of clinical services. she joined the leadership team as the east coast rep. working from her home, she represents them throughout the eastern united states. and quite relative to this panel, she completed three chapters regarding brain injury that address school transitions , ethics, and social challenges. think you for that. we are going to start.

i will just ask the very simple question that many of us thought would be both basic and get into deep issues to start with. from your different perspectives, >> we take people from the civilian society and it takes a year to turn them into a soldier. we send them now to do the dirty work for the country. then, they come home. they all come home changed. or changes individuals.

the american constitution recognizes the pursuit of happiness, but when you are changed by the war, the pursuit of happiness becomes very, very difficult. what is healing? perhaps to me it is to regain that sense of society that -- that sense of equanimity of the spirit, the soul and mind. to assimilate and come back with the experiences you had and then get on with your life in the pursuit of your own development and happiness. have i said anything controversial? perhaps something simple. >> i think it becomes important

because when we think about or healing and reintegrating, we have a simple picture that we send people off to war and when they are done, we need to put them back into their lives and do well weekend to set them on the path they would have been if the war had not interfered. there are couple of problems with that. in the united states, a lot of people that enter the military are not in very good positions when they start. a lot of them are on the road to bankruptcy, homelessness, they have a lot of social issues to start with. we need a model that puts them at a good foundation. the other thing it does is that it does not recognize that military service and war changes

people. there are a lot of negative consequences but also a lot of positive changes as well. we want them to internalize the experience and take what is beneficial to them and keep it and move forward and make their lives better. at the same time, allowing them to deal with the parts they're going to cause them harm. >> let me follow up and see if the swap rates -- see if this will bring the question more forward. itch -- if each of you had to bring a simplification of were healing that you are from -- we have an international committee, so i will put it that way, what would that simplification be and how was a you discovered it? what did you see that was

simplified about the way our society or your society might look at war healing? >> let me start. one of the things i have simplified the whole process of war healing into a binary way of looking at it. how we go through a process and the person is healed from war, rather than i use the word irretrievably changed because my life was changed in ways that will never be retrieved. something that learned from my combat experience have been of great benefit to me. some have been very much not so. since 9/11, when i have noticed especially is the transformation to describing people to serve in the military as selfless heroes.

i know many people who've gone into the military out of a great sense of patriotism, duty and service. however, a vast number of people go into the enlisted ranks out of economic necessity and opportunity and necessity, which is something very different. i have to look at this within this context that the people in my experience during vietnam, the people in my platoon, were the young men with the least opportunity in our society economically and socially because we made a deal with the middle-class and upper-class the we leave their sons alone and take the less advantaged to maintain political tranquillity. currently, we have an all volunteer service which in theory has many admirable

attributes. in reality, some less so. so we have a small minority of the population doing the dirty work for our society on borrowed money. we are not investing in their lifelong need for attention afterwards. if we accept the myth that people join the military out of patriotism and service, we also have to accept that african- americans are twice as patriotic and twice as willing to do service that the whites. we have to accept that hispanics are 2 1/2 times more willing to be patriotic than whites. we have to accept all the children of senators are somewhat less patriotic of those who are not the senators. [applause]

we would have to accept that in the enlisted ranks, less than 1% of enlisted ranks that's have college, the uneducated are more patriotic than those with an education. i'm just throwing that out to stir the waters and i hope my new friend is not to upset with me for saying this. so --

[audio difficulty]

>> in the first 15 minutes of a fire fight, it takes -- you are faced with the reality that the world is chaos and there is no order. we impose order and the people who you believe might not necessarily have been telling the whole truth. you do things you never thought you would do. you see people do things you never thought you would do.

in order to face up to this experience and not die, you cannot face up to it and die or you can become numb and adopt a different set of values. you become closer to your squad than many other people you would meet in your life on a certain level. you have crossed the line. you have been allowed to kill people. that's not a line most of us cross. in any area, when a person goes past the line, they are forever changed. then, you come back and back in the same old world with your buddies and your wife and your kids and your parents and the world looks different. very different. on a micro level, hopefully your

job with or without help, love or a support, to integrate yourself with your new learning and old learning, which is often at the crux of a very great problem because dollar old learning made you happy, light- hearted and you had a friends, believed in god and so forth. on the other side it's different. at the end, i think you can look back and say you are healing. if a person can accept the whole of themselves and bring themselves into the world in an efficacious way the best they can, hopefully they will be

successful and you realize what is between 0.8, entering the world and success is a long, detailed road and some are successful and some are not. suffering is without end. >> just to echo the point, this concept of pathology is critical to how we react to the idea of war healing and healing in general. it has come to the forefront in the world of brain injury rehabilitation where there should be a finality and you should be done at some point. even soldiers experiencing mild brain injuries are told you will have symptoms and that's not necessarily the case. this idea that there's something we're going to diagnose and you'll be done with it, the whole term of healing,

taking your experiences and pulling them into your own identity, is a journey and that's one of those things with the return from war, it is a lifelong journey. the word heeling trips that up a little bit. >> let me add one thing and see where this takes the question. we're still on the first question, trying to figure out what we make of it. it seems the assumption of the question is about the combat veteran him or herself who is dealing west, according to the term, healing. as many of you know from your research, there are the circles of affiliation around the combat

veteran. as we have seen in this subject, there is healing that goes on between the combat veteran and a former enemy. the combat veteran and the non- combat from the combat zone. there is also the suggestion in your comments fact there is something about society that does not quite get what it has done or what it has to deal with that makes me wonder if there is not some sense in which healing is needed beyond that the circles of affiliation around the veteran, the former

enemy, the non combatants and so on. the question is, to whom is healing important and how is it different based on the different people or parties doing healing? from your experience or in the process of that. we talk about what is for healing, but to him? what are the differences in the understanding of the term, looking at our society and its public discourse is there -- and i making myself clear? i can give you a very dramatic one if you want. >> one of the things we have

experienced in the last couple of days is how important it is for me as a veteran to come back to an intact family and community and society. needless to say, in vietnam, that did not exist. upon the individual level, it's important that many of us who were in the enlisted ranks did not come from well formed families or communities are societies. not having a ball backed. what is important, i think, and i want to say i sworn oath to the constitution and emigrate fall for richard nixon. when i came back, i stood behind richard nixon as a

living, breathing potted plant. watching the sky work convinced me i was no longer going to work for his military. i was done. i said i'm not fighting anymore wars on this guy's dime. i'm done. the issue was my socty then and my society now is not choosing war with good reason, with intention that holds water. a simple soldier should be able to say this war is worthwhile and my society supports it wholeheartedly. but i'm doing these things in defense of my constitution, what i was steeped in. i find it problematic press to be reintegrated when that's not so. i find it difficult to be part of society as whole again, when

our society refuses to look at the caskets and refuses to look at the bill and the fortune and the long-term cost of our ventures. we can do a great deal of work as individuals to get through our lives in a somewhat workable fashion. the guys i've served with have functional eyes. we have careers, we get married, we have kids, we go on a motorcycle rides, we do all these things. we are always with a sense that we are out of step with the rest. don't welcome the home, i didn't leave my home. the home did not embrace our efforts. i find us being a war problematic and healing is

problematic because of the i wonder if my colleagues have a view as to whether healing is easier with all volunteer army or conscripted army or it doesn't make any difference? >> it may be true that for certain elements of a military force, that they don't necessarily come from the children of the senators and what have you, but we call them the regular army. the last time we had conscription, there is no issue of them volatility -- volunteering but there was the idea that you could have gotten out of it you wanted to, but the reality is thus not true.

conscripted people are randomly selected. i was not. saint patrick has been looking at the perhaps in the work i've been doing, i've been particularly interested in the differences between the regular enlistees and national serviceman, the draftees. and what i find is that the irregulars were generally older they were the ones in command of the platoon and what have you. the national servicemen are generally younger. the affect of age shows the regular soldiers as a group are generally not as well physically as the national serviceman some of them did several tors, some of them were

discharged from the airport at the way home. when you look at their mental health, no difference there is a difference here between me conscripts', they draftees and the volunteers. it is partly due to the war it may be due to their age and length of time they spend with 60 kilograms on their back jumping out of helicopters and giving all the things people have to do in the army to stay fit and what have the. but when you come to mental health, there is no difference. the same amount of time and the war zone with the same kind of experience and exposures will do the same kind of damage to people. >> the we think healing is

easier when there's a conscripted military as opposed to all volunteer military? the damage may be the same, but i wonder about the healing process. does it suggest anything for future policy in this country? >> i would like to piggyback on something brian said. during vietnam in australia, they discharge returning troops at the airport. in some sense, it's a good metaphor for what goes on the government spends a lot of time turning civilians into soldiers. if you spend 40 years in the military, you'll spend 40 years training. there is no point where they say you are done, you are a soldier, you can set this one out.

when we returned soldiers to civilian life, we dropped the ball off at the airport. there is no thinking that we spent two years turning this person into a combat veteran. it's going to take at least that long to return him to the civilian world. the other point that it may be think of was that while we integrate civilians into the military model, it is fixed. a lot of the process is taking a square peg and grinding it down until they are round and sticking it in to a round hole. when we return people to civilian life, it can't just be how do we change soldiers so

they adjust to the civilian world. their communities have to adjust as well because now they are round and we can't fix that square hole. people have to move then. we need to meet in the middle. cannot be just a one-sided transition. in addition, what happens when somebody goes over the line, their families are also moving on its of like they are sitting still. you take somebody out of the mix and it keeps going by and they make friends and close the gap while that person gone so they are not the same, and it's not the same. it is on more of a micro level

of husbands, wives, children and so forth. that has to be recognized in the bitterness and the combination of bitterness, love, anger, frustration on both sides has to be dealt with. both sides have to be willing to talk peace and change. >> i was under the impression we don't just drop them off the airport now, that there's an effort to make a gradual reintegration with a series of opportunities. i was talking to a former marine who did a couple of tours in iraq. he said was very perfunctory.

it seems like it would be a no- brainer to do something more meaningful. what's going on? >> what would be meaningful? >> i can reinforce that. there was a real comic -- a royal commission in australia that declared agent orange was not guilty. but one of the good things it pointed out was that the way the soldiers are treated, you take a young soldier, said the loss to vietnam and then on a discharge papers, the discharge reason would be not suited to be a soldier. this is institutionalize within the military. this is something of australian veterans have been fighting against for years. you have attitudes in the military within the government, within the society, with the media yet politicians leading

demonstrations against the war in the 1960's. then you have to cope with the family that has been on their own for a period of time. this happened in the second world war. when the men came back, you have a conflict, a conflict of roles. there are many issues here. the attitudes of government, the services themselves, the services of -- the attitudes of the family, society and the media and so on. you have a many headed beast that has to be dealt with on a number of different levels. 45we're getting close to the minute mark, so i would like to open u it's possible to come back to some of the questions. i like the initiative and i encourage you to ask each other questions. i think there is someone

waiting period which mind introducing yourself. >> my name is susan and i'm from canada. we have much of the same issues, but on a smaller scale. i wonder if any of you can suggest a strategy to deal with the coming onslaught of iraq and afghanistan veterans. we have not even seen the magnitude yet. are we going to limp along like we did with vietnam and put out the brush fires here and there and what guys are committing suicide and becoming homeless, i wonder if any of you guys have a strategy in mind. >> those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat the errors. >> i have no strategy. i don't think there is a magic bullet.

>> i work for the beat -- for the va, but i'm not here in a capacity to represent the va. my thoughts are my hon. -- my thoughts are my alma. extent know to what there is, but my stand on suicide is quite different than institutional imperatives. i went to the cleveland clinic the other day and they handed me a computer and i stood at the desk and gave me a stylist at iss to check off the boxes and it was are you going to kill yourself today. it was a suicide checklist. and i said well that says it all. i know there is an effort,

however effective or ineffective it is for the va addressing, a lot of money getting spent on homelessness and suicidology. i don't have any idea how effective it is. >> [inaudible] >> i don't know in terms of broad strategies, but suggestions from being in the private sector, some of what you see in the mental-health world is folks in the private sector who have models for long-term handling of helping somebody go through the journey involving brain injury long term.

i have had the experience more than i would like to tell you where a veteran or spouse has contacted me or the brain injury association somewhere in the country with a frustration trying to access services. i think services are improving. ,e've seen a lot of effort being aware of the suicide and the impact on children -- there are those of us in the private sector saying let us help. it is a lot to maneuver. to get through the political heirs and financial layers is difficult. where the strategy has worked, there's a commander that says this needs to happen.

it is important that we use all the resources we have in the country to put forward the solutions. >> the most important thing we can do now is to realize we're not even close to having a solution. a couple of years ago, i was activated but not deployed. a spent about year in north carolina and one of the last stages of my discharge was sitting there with a company clerk and she asked, have you ever killed anybody, are you suicidal, do you feel you are suffering from post-traumatic stress, have you been the victim of sexual assault. there is a checklist of things that would send out flags. in my case, i have a hard time imagining a 23 year-old kid

from alabama talking to her about these issues. the last thing we want to think ithisas accomplished something important. we need to make sure we're following up with the people we think there is reason to follow up with and not just be a checklist as part of the process when we are moving people out the door. >> perhaps that's what you were talking about to address suicide, i would say to the family, it is your great loss, but it is not your fault you did not pick up all the details that night you have in hindsight, if i had only noticed this or that,

it would have been different. all of the things we're talking about today, as despair in a person working out these issues of identity and the horrors of what they have seen sitting back in substance abuse -- there are a number of things that make it hard. what can be done to help them hold on can be done by other veterans. most importantly, i think fellow veterans are one of the chief sources of savings and betty. if you have a veteran in question, they often don't like you nosing into their business. a network is a good thing.

i have a family i work with who the father was on the beaches of normandy. he crawls into bed and cries when there was a thunderstorm. his son was on a great destroyer that caught fire and virtually everyone -- not everyone, but many people died. the people on that ship were vastly traumatized. his son was not in iraq, but because ofhe miracles of modern telephone, he could call his grandfather and wheat to him and say i can do the body count anymore. i can't kill women and children. what he had was three generations of a very tight knit families that helped him -- that held him together.

family is good. love is good. brotherhood is good, sisterhood is good. i could go on and on, but that's just a short answer. >> there is another strategy that was suggested that i believe was echoed by a number of view. this is coming off your comment that it's important to know what you have done as a veteran has been for a purpose. if one could it later on think the purpose was mistaken or flawed, the society you are part of takes responsibility for having made a collective decision and asking are telling you, depending on whether it's conscription or volunteer service, to carry out that intention.

what i hear with your question is there is a large question, at least for american society, which is to say have we taken responsibility for having made that decision? if we have not, what does that do to people who are returning? there are many dimensions, psychological dimensions to despair. but despair involves not having hope, an object, a goal one can attain or a good one can see coming. if one feels like one's entire life has been vaulted into a kind of emptiness because the society has gone like this or looked the other way or turned on snoop dogg or something

ridiculous, this is a problem. there is this social dimension of claiming responsibility for the act. >> when was the last time we declared war? >> they covered the issue of declaring war in this morning's panel of experts and discovered it was not a good thing to do. if i had a strategy, first response is, because i'm one of those better vietnam veterans, it don't depend on the va or the government to have a strategy. [laughter] not that the va doesn't do some . rvelous worke >> i don't speak for the va, i do marvelous work. >> as does everyone in this room. it would be a national strategy of finding someone to fund

people listening for all of the families of all the people who serve. the willingness to say tell me about your experience and listen without flinching. [applause] because the expression was used this morning -- we are at the pointy end of the stick. but i was taught to different version that says i'm the flame at the tip of the candle. i burned brightly with my knowledge of war, but i want the war for the whole societies of the whole society has the obligation to listen to my experience. that strategy alone to me is the simplest and most effective. >> sir, you have been very patient. >> i am a vietnam veteran.

i'm retired marine lieutenant and retire high-school english teacher. today, i work with veterans at a homeless shelter in kent, ohio. i'm part of warrior's journey home which is a group that reaches out to iraq veterans. what you just said is right on. i want to preface this with i applaud the six of you for the work you are doing and the dedication you have to the healing process. i'm not sure i always agree with everything, but i applaud you. my little heart has been going better patterson's this panel began. i want to make to statement said you could respond if you want or not. number one is that i don't think the army -- i think the military

does nothing for soldiers when they get out. i have talked to too many. i recently read an article in the "new york times" where soldiers are told if you have a problem, especially with the iraq and afghanistan bets, if you have a problem, we will help you. in carson, the head a group of soldiers who went for help and were not only ridiculed by the sergeant's in charge of them, but they were drugged and medicated to death. i hate, i cannot stand medicating people who have psychiatric issues. we talk. -- we need to talk. what the young man with four

stars said so well, both of you. that being said, i, from my own experience, the military says they're doing this and doing that for these kids when they are being discharged, but i think it's nice work on paper we feet to the public to get the public to believe everything is cool and these guys are being taken care of when they're being discharged, whereas in reality, at least personally, i don't believe they are in any sense of the word. secondly, the thing that got me at the beginning, i think sometimes we have a tendency as professionals to overgeneralize -- this statement was made more than once by the panel with

reference to the class of individuals who are drafted verses joined. maybe they might have issues prior to that. i know i'm not real happy with the va and some decisions they've made along that line with reference to their post- traumatic stress disorder, the diagnoses that have come out. i think we need to be careful when we say words like "a lot of our military are made up of the certain class of individuals, or many, or most." we are unique as individuals. we need to be at least ideally treated as unique individuals. sometimes our government facilities c.s. as a group and i personally do not like -- see us as a group, and i certainly

don't like being spoken of in generalities. i'm a person. it's great to say and great to wish and i also know the reality is not always the case. sometimes i wish as a veteran that i'm not going to be thrown into a specific category of individuals. there are individuals in this audience who are not even a comes to individuals being drafted or volunteering for the service. they will leave here thinking the overall majority of those in the service are there because of poverty or lack of education or anything like that. that is not always true. please let the audience

understand that. thank you very much for being here today and this entire week has been a trip for me. i'm real happy with it. thank you. >> thank you. what anyone like to respond? -- would anyone like to respond? >> yes. thank you for those comments. i very much appreciate that let me walk back with you if i could. i am unique on this panel in that i'm the one non-academic person. i'm just to drop out. having said that -- i'm just a drop out. having said that, even a country boy can read the data. just look at demographics of who is in the service and we can infer certain things. it doesn't infer anything about who we are as individuals. i know that in my platoon,

which was 40 years ago, i had a wide range of individuals. for the most part, regardless of their economic or education background, they did it right action, they served with courage, and did things that are unimaginable today. the one thing i did learn in the infantry and later through reading is that our military is built on the model of the interchangeable parts. one of the fundamental lessons of a grant i learned is that as a human being, regardless of my sterling individual characteristics, i'm disposable. i could be angry about that and say i am a throwaway. i choose to use it as a source of strength. that means i'm responsible for my behavior in my life. how do i find the tools to do

that? we have been talking about posttraumatic stress disorder at i think we have to separate people the need clinical help and the majority of mothers -- the majority of others. some of the people in my platoon get disability for clinical ptsd. most of us run our functional lives, but we sit around at the table at reunions and share. there's a nice, clerical person sitting there with their check list, everyone of us could hit every diagnostic criteria. we put it in our pockets and went about our life successfully. but we did not do because of the military did for us or because of what our society did for us. we did it in spite of it. we did it because as individuals, we had the

fortitude to do it and i have every faith that most of the people is certainly the military today, up regardless of what i perceive as the inequalities in the way our society is doing this, we have the resources to overtime, achieved a good life. if we can shorten that process or help the process, it is our obligation as citizens couple alone as veterans to help with that, to pony up for that part of what we decided to do. >> thank you for being so patient. i don't know if you were waiting in line and would find is easier, but i'm happy to put a speakers' list over here. you could put your name in line and set back down. if you could just stay in the order you stood ensign back, that would be good. -- the order you stood in, and

then get back above that would be good. >> we talked and toward a society has come up many times. i'm still angry about my society. i don't think it is society that sends people off to war. i think it's governments that do that. it is not a society that does that. i'm angry about a number of things in my society. i'm angry about things like we have more suicides every year that motor vehicle deaths. where is this similar amount of resources put into preventing suicides? a cynic might say the prevent suicide and make money, but every time you run a red light, you are making money.

-- a cynic might say preventing a suicide doesn't make money. i think society and government are quite different things. >> thank you. >> my name is steve perry. i spent years in the army as a combat veteran from vietnam. what this group has addressed or attempted to address, as i see the dynamic of this whole healing thing, is focused on the veteran. i think we're missing part of the equation here and that would like everyone's comment on this. i can speak for my own standpoint and suspected speak for many combat veterans in that all of us have an overriding sense of betrayal.

regardless of what happens to us or how we are trted by society or how we try to address our combat issues were memories and demons, what have you, there does not seem to be any kind of a ton on the part of the governments that placed us in harm's way. there is no accountability for the political leaders that made decisions that many of us have come to believe were invalid. we all have this monkey on our back, if you will, that we are the ones being blamed for all of this stuff. we are broken and we have to get fixed and everything, but who was responsible? have they or have they not been

called to task for this? comment, if you would, please. >> the thundering silence. >> in vietnam, there was one congressman's son who served in the field as an infantry officer. he was from my home district. a great guy. hopefully we're going to see more veterans in congress so there will be more accountability. i was don't expect -- talking to dr. french about this. i don't think personal offense by with a grunt, that's a necessity of the military.

way our society uses military much different the way our society uses labor or other economic resources or natural resources or the globe. it is something to be used for an end that in my opinion, and i speak for myself, not any institution, favors a very small percentage at the expense of the many. i don't have any expectation of accountability, especially if, as was pointed out this morning, only 40% of us bother to vote and say very strongly to the people who supposedly represent us, we want you to make different decisions. we want you to take different actions. the old expression is, if we want to change the experiment, we have to change our input.

we cannot give up and say we cannot do it. >> [inaudible] >> i think you just supported my position. having said that, i will go vote every time. and i will encourage everyone i know to go vote. our system -- that's the only shot we have at really changing. more than vote, it is right, call, and talk to your congress people, whether on a local level or on the national level. if i've said anything to younger people, it is read, be informed, be active. i think i heard that message this morning. if you are not informed, you will repeat history because you don't know it.

if you don't take action locally, at the state level and the national level, they will repeat the same mistakes. we have a responsibility to do that. we cannot say no. we've given to much to say it cannot be done. if you and i had been to war and we know the price, we have the voice that has residents, force, and power. we need to use it. -- that has residents -- as residents -- so the earth doesn't suffer, we have to do that we have to never quit. we have to never stop trying. >> i don't necessarily argue with you.

[inaudible] >> improvise, adapt, overcome. you've heard that before. >> in australia, voting is compulsory. >> is it really? >> yes. the problem with that is that he still get rubbish. [laughter] in the last election, and lee australia, had a wonderful politician say i did not hear certain things during the campaign. i did not hear the word education. i heard training, not education. i did not hear health. i didn't hear those kinds of things. i heard the xenophobia, boatpeople, refugees, big mining tax.

these are not the issues that are salient. these are the issues politicians were choosing to fight the battles on. >> you have been very patient. shelley is going to comment about six or seven people but made an interesting comment. this is one of the areas with the complexity of the panel starting to appear. i think you are feeling passionate and that indicates something. are we talking politics or are we talking healing? i was also thinking, here we are, started off talking about healing of combat veterans, and we are full-scale into social and political philosophy and the social and political critique. it is worth being more rigorous

about whether or not that should be the case and if it is, why is it the case? it is important to note that, with the exception of the professor, we don't have a single political scientist of some form. you are a legal scholar, but we don't have a single political scientist on the panel, yet what has happened is you have pushed us into thinking about politics, social structure and bureaucracy. this is something me -- something we may want to explore later. >> i want to qualify my question -- how do we keep the healer's accountable to healing? i want to qualify that by saying i am the daughter of a vietnam veteran. i grew up around the post and my father, his posttraumatic

stress disorder that triggered. as a 20-year-old college student, had to sit in a court room and hospitalize my father against his will, to the va. at the end >> that is substandard care, and it is unacceptable. >> we just completed a study on intervention in psychosis. schizophrenia is not something you can treat with words. one of the sad things we found out is that after six months of

treatment, 30% of people did not ve a diagnosis. that would not be except of all in cancer or heart disease or any other bodily system, but it seems to be okay in mental health. you can say is because we do not have enough research. we don't know enough about the way the brain works. what you saw was treatment failure. >> my name is tom campbell, from montana. i would like to talk a little bit about an atmosphere of culture and of trauma and how trauma is healed in an individual in a couple, a family, a community, and as a nation. i think there is a denial about what is honestly going on.

the military or the politicians say we have nuclear weapons in iraq, and they know is not true. it is like a lot of lies, and all the politicians are all lying about themselves, and everybody knows they are lying, but there is a lot of dishonesty and dysfunction in regular culture. it is like we cannot even say i hurt. men are not supposed to be heard or hurt as much as other people. some held historical drama, stuff that is going on today, it is interesting with vietnam. people there are opening up and talking and sharing. some of us can share back and do some healing, but a lot of times i think there is so much

cultural lying and cultural brainwashing, where we are not honest and we don't talk straight. we don't even share who we are, really, because we are wondering what other people think we are and other people trying to make us think we are something, or we are not even worth healing. there is nobody there. my community is in a mess. there's financial poverty, dysfunction. it is so dishonest that we don't even really look at and say that is a person that is hurting. he is back from vietnam or back from iraq. but we don't have the money or we don't have the energy to help him or her, and the sexual abuse of women in the military, and homophobia of don't ask don't tell is so much lying in so much dysfunction.

finally getting in a small group and talking and sharing real-life stuff is good. that feels really good because it is not the normal. it is like the health services -- the veteran is just receive a he or she has a wound, but is everything else that is not helping. it is all about money. we cannot afford that, and we cannot even afford to tell the people what the military costs and the consequences. dumb, but we are somebody is making money and been a fitting, but a lot of people are not. there is -- need to be so much honesty in communication. that is all. [applause]

>> i want to be careful to honor what you said. i have had a wonderful experience over the past year of working with both military and civilian folks on military and civilian healing. when you get the person who is suffering and you connect with family members and you connect with medical case managers, are folks in the care coalition who do a tremendous amount of case management for their soldiers, there are a ton of people in tough places trying really hard to be honest and to be helpful. i just want to share that i have seen some really good stuff from small pockets in places where there are individuals -- if you

get it back to you and me sitting down and trying to figure out we have a friend or person in this community, there is a lot of care going on at that level. i do want to share that there are some good things going on as well. >> you brought up military sexual trauma. that really is a good point. the focus of this panel is combat veterans, but military service in general and the experiences that people have can have profound impacts on veterans, whether or not they are in a combat zone. oftentimes peacekeeping missions, disaster relief where they encounter horrific things. oftentimes it is a matter of personal violation and attack.

is important to keep in mind as well that we have an obligation to these veterans as well as we do to the combat veterans. i have had several friends who have told me that when they give back to their families, their communities, they recognize that they have issues, but from their perspective, their families are broken. their communities are broken. they don't feel as if there needs should come first. they just got discharge the no longer have a job. what is most important to them is to try to get their family back on track. in some places, this is our attitude as well. we are 10 years into the conflict. i have encountered people that don't know the conflict is still

continuing. it has almost become an afterthought for lots of people. they feel as if there are more pressing things. it is important to keep this in the forefront. >> in regard to the person who was talking about dishonesty. to being paranoid and jaded and so forth, and i am not sure we are all not correct. ere did you go, sir? i see a lot of lying. i see lies and statistics, but i have to agree with you. you need to look for pockets. i know people who are good,

honest people. there are individuals or small groups of people. they are not part of a mass government or mass political structure, and i think you need to find those people and grab them and stay in that healthy place of sincerity and trustworthiness. you know it when you see it, if you open yourself up a little bit. the problem with being in a war is you do not trust many people, right? you have to open yourself up a little bit, but there are people, not your whole government, not all the political stuff. i have been dying to say this. it has to do with the interest in healing and the interest with reintegrating the veterans, but

it is not addressed to one single soldier. i want you to understand that, ok? it is somewhat to people who are interested and not in the trenches with the aftermath of war, and it is most certainly addressed to our larger society and government who on the whole appear not to give a damn, unless i am mistaken. have i missed something? if it is not their son or daughter, what does it matter? did anyone ever listen to garrison keeler? there is a pastor of the church of our lady of perpetual --hat is it? responsibility. the pastor there always gives this speech, and he doesn't

about sex, but really it applies here. if he did not want to go to minneapolis, why did you get on the train? in other words, if he did not mean something to happen, don't do it. don't start a war. things happen when you have war. that always happen. they always have happened. smarten up, ok? >> i am from independence, ohio. this past summer, i worked at outback steakhouse, and one of the guys i worked with was extremely nice, one of the waiters that i connected with most at work. when a big family would come in, he loved giving it the little kids coloring books and extra cost to take home and what

not. i ended up learning that he was a veteran of afghanistan and that he was diagnosed with pt est -- ptsd. when he got back, he had a messy divorce and it was decided in court that he was not capable of having it so care of his child because of his ptsd and his wife was able to take his job away from him because of that. i don't know all of full-court circumstances, and not to get to political or into social issues, but basically it was not able to have a lot of visitation with the child until he was back to normal. i put that in quotes, so my question is, how do we know when someone is back to normal again is cured?erir ptsd

>> that is a great question. >> i started with a different perspective. maybe is influenced by medical views. ptsd is sometimes regarded as treatment resistant, in the same way that the brain does not let you forget. the stimuli that you see, a car backfiring, those kinds of things can trigger these events. the story that a veteran once told me, he had returned and he was with his fiancee, now his wife, and brother and his wife. they were in downtown shelbourne -- downtown

melbourne. an automatic reaction, hit the deck, and he felt like such a fool. somebody just materialized out of the crowd, took him by the hand, and said you have just been in iraq, haven't you? it's okay, it's all right. he patted him on the back, and then disappeared. that is very hard to abolish. there are other parts of ptsd that can be amenable to intervention. my attitude is that it will not go away. if a legal case is hinging on somebody being cured, that is a hopeless case.

what treatment should be aimed at is getting people to accept and understand the problem and to not engage in the kinds of behaviors that become self- destructive. the excess substance abuse, for example, interpersonal violence within families and that kind of thing. you can help people to overcome some of these problems, but it will not go away. >> some of that is also improving how we respond. i suspect that most of us, when the person dives on the streets, they are like what the heck? then they are backing away rather than moving forward to help them up. it is still prevalent in

society, the crazed combat vet. this is what people think about when they think about posttraumatic stress. >> ticking time bombs. >> absolutely. >> part of it is educating people that that is not the case. it is unfortunate, because -- one of the unfortunate side effects is, the careers that export average military duty prepares you for is being of our fire, police officer, these positions that people know that if they want to seek treatment related to mental health at all, it would be significantly negatively impacted their ability to get these positions. the stigma that society holds in general towards things like posttraumatic stress have a huge impact on the willingness of veterans to seek help.

>> so part of the problem is that the surrounding world is itself not normal, if by normal we mean healthy. it is the average, statistical, it is the norm, but it is not healthy. there is silence built in or failed expectations about how to live with people who are dealing with, and so on. >> roger. >> in addition to your back fire story, about 15 years after the vietnam war, i was walking through the woods of arkansas with a vietnam veteran, a friend of mine. the trail was so small that we had to walk single file. i was talking up a storm and he

was commenting, and i walked for about 10 minutes and he was not answering me. i turned around and he was not there. so i turned and backtracked for probably a quarter of a mile, and i found him frozen like a mannikin, not moving. in front of him was a trail marker, 3 rocks piled on top of each other. i later learned that evening that that was a sign of a booby trap. he's all right and immediately froze. this was 15 years after the war. my question is, during the vietnam war and shortly, about two years afterwards, i was a police officer in fort lauderdale, florida. i started being sent on an inordinate amount of calls involving fights and vandalism and disturbances involving vietnam veterans.

i discovered that almost everyone of these calls was started by someone picking on the vet, saying he was stupid for having gone to vietnam, and that nobody appreciated what he was doing. i could not believe the way our veterans were being treated. i actually became somewhat of a poor police officer because of that, because any time i stopped anyone who was of that, i let them go. -- when i stopped anyone who was a veteran, i let them go. i understand there were about 55,000 who committed suicide. this was a 10-year war. we are now facing another 10- year war. when these veterans come home, because they are not being rejected or humiliated but welcomed as heroes, like that

help reduce the suicide rate that we might see, or is the damage from more the damage from more? -- the damage from war? >> i think it is actually an extra problem. it is another layer to work through, because if i am a hero, why my feeling like this? statistically, we know already, for example the homeless rate among veterans of multiple stores are showing up 10 years sooner than for vietnam. the homeless rate is twice the general population. the unemployment rate is twice the general population except for african-american and hispanic veterans, where it is almost three times the general population. the suicide rate is already way higher. you have heard of suicide by motorcycle.

there are all kinds of ways for young men and young women who are having is used to harm themselves that does not show up. with multiple deployments, there is more of our problem, not less. most of us had one torque and we were done. >> that is a big problem. when the war started off, we said we would bring them home and they could see their families, unlike the vietnam war freeze date for a year and was on the other side of a planet. he never told him anything, you just said we are doing fine, everything is peachy keen. then it was the young people coming in with free tours. now is four, five, six stores,

and then they can be called back. i don't think they are signing up in droves to take the place of those soldiers as we increase our military presence. to be athere's going tremendous impact, because coming home, seeing what it is like, and then having to go back. one young man is the son of one of many of the sons and whenson's -- in vietnam you went to enlist, if you were drafted, he would go back for christmas to your family. instead they had a bus waiting for you. he signed up and got on the bus and goodbye, just in case you changed your mind. in this case, these guys came home and they were supposed to go back to seattle.

they were not allowed to go on leave to see their families because they were afraid that people would run away. i think it is tremendous in these young people who come back when they are doing that. they have a lot of profound problems. >> it is important to keep in mind is not use young people. >> that is true. >> one of the folks i was activated with saw their 16th birthday just before they -- 16th birthday just before they shipped him off to iraq. >> i think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, were listing is very important. instead of us imposing a label

you are a hero, you are a villain, whichever label, instead of us imposing that, hearing the story and letting that person tell the story. is that a better strategy in terms of lowering suicide? >> yes. >> let me just do a little bookkeeping. we have about 25 minutes left. there are four people left on the roster, and then i think what i would like to do, because this conversation has been on many different points, sometimes tenuously related to each other. if we could go down the line after that, and if each of you could give a couple of minutes, and plays reflect back if you would to each other and to the room what is that you are coming

away with from this conversation, or if there is something that you feel has been missing and you really feel it should be put in, i would appreciate if you would do that. is that ok? i am sorry i cannot read the handwriting. >> i am sure we have some veterans here it who are shaken, they are so emotional, because that is part of ptsd. i just want to tell two story is just quickly. i live not too far from fort bliss. i talk with these guys. i ride a motorcycle with 30 and 40-year-old guys. it gives me close to them, and i can talk to them and listen to them and hear about their pain. it takes them three months to get into mental health in el pasco after they are released

from the military, because all the doctors have left because of the bureaucracy. two weeks ago, i had a 24-year- old marine who has been home for a year kill himself. he went to the va for mental health three-time and did not getting it. -- he did not get it. we have been in iraq for 10 years and we still have not figured out there are mental health issues with these guys getting back? how long is it going to take? we will be in afghanistan long after i am gone and we will still be discussing this. academia gives us an hour to talk about this, and we simplify it. there are like 40 different symptoms of post-traumatic stress. i was diagnosed about six or seven years ago, and i work with

veterans now. it can be controlled. can be healed, but it is a sold thing. it is not a mental disorder. when you kill people, that spark of life inside you guys just a little bit. i worked on a helicopter for more than two years. i looked into the faces of the people i shot. you do not get over that by putting people on corzine or talking to them once every six weeks. i think george bush was a brilliant president. he did not bring back the draft. the majority of americans are not paying attention to what we are doing to these young people. i have pictures on my phone, and you can look at these guys. they are dead. their sole is gone -- their soul is gone, and we need to save them. -- whyon't do something,

it does the va not paid attention and send those people to a doctor who has a program that works? >> the philosophical point is that we are a panel that has been focusing -- our top has been focusing increasingly on politics. our expertise focuses on psychological and medical issues, for the most part. your claim is that this is a spiritual issue. >> absolutely. >> so the point is, what do you as a panel think about that, are your profession structured in such a way that you can even acknowledge the points that he was making? will your profession acknowledge it?

>> i spent three months last year in australia and i hung around a lot of -- to their equivalent of the vfw hall. i've talked to vietnam veterans from australia, and they have the same problem, so is not just unique to us. >> thank you, sir. >> i can safely say i have no answers. i think that treatments, therapies come and go. when i was first trained many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, as i tell my children, there were at least 142 types of psychotherapies, and god only knows how many there are now. what psychotherapies in institutions are offered are part of policy and part of

politics and no doubt part of who knows what bureaucracy, money, or whatever that may be. currently, the therapies being a offered are called evidence basic practices. this may mean nothing to you, but i am going to come around to what you said. they are based on several things, and this is kind of intellectual. i am not an academic, but i think a lot and i read a lot. all psychologies are trying to prove scientifically whether a philosophy -- an example as cognitive behavioral therapy. it is the expectation of the stoic philosophy.

it is trying to test whether this is good or not. the way people have over a million years thought about things, what turns out to be true or not. in addition, however, besides those arcane things which are very intellectual and often very academic, those of us in the field, i have to say that everything i know about treatment, i have learned from the veterans. everything i know i have learned from the veterans. i have certain skills. i have a certain personality. in my day, you hope for a calling, to be called by god to have something good to do. i have to say in my small group, those people are very dedicated. i cannot say that i know what

ptsd.s i have watched you guys and i know what else, and i use that in all my treatment. i have heard the doctor speak before. i may not agree with every word he says. he has a different philosophy than i do. nonetheless, i don't disagree with a word he says. everybody does it their different way. i will await my summary until the end. >> to your question of whether the professions acknowledge that, i think the american psychological association has come a long way in the last 10 or 15 years, especially in shifting from a diagnosis to wait a minute, there are a lot of people out there. a lot of people are successful,

even under extreme conditions. that's ask them what is working and let's figure out how to translate that to the folks who are struggling. i think the profession has turned a corner, looking at the importance of optimism and the importance of spirituality and resilience. it is still pretty new to a lot of practitioners, but i think we are getting there. >> i think we agree on some things and not other things. for instance, the word resilience is a thing that every one of my veterans has had. resilience is often used as a pejorative word. you are not resilient. what does that mean? in zero way, i think that is a catch word. the only thing i have about depression in general is they

think it is easier than it is. it is much more complicated. >> thanks for that question. i think a lot more could be said. i am just trying to get everyone in. >> it is truly humble honor to be able to stand in front of such a distinguished panel. i have just a couple of questions in regard to comments made earlier in your presentation. if i am hearing correctly, i thought i heard several times, we have no models or model currently adequate to address the issues we face here today. if that is so, however, i find it so interesting that the

military, the 0 d, is still utilizing the logistical and tactical mentalities, the strategies of the like of that nez perce nation or chief tecumseh, and just as bewildering to me is the fact that the same first people of this land, the native americans, also utilize well known sacred ceremonies such as the sacred spring and fall warrior societies, the sacred sundance, and they do still do practice dance andal ghost ban other strategies to address this

spiritual wounds of their warriors. to integrate them into such sacred societies like the sacred society of the warriors of peace, chief sitting bull's most highly held position. in closing, we in fact do have the models available. why are we not using them? >> would anyone like to try this? >> i think the questions have started to build. i am not an expert on this at all.

i am hearing really clear patterns. we are going to get to chellie, who will try to talk about her concern about over politicizing things. what i hear is that there is a real problem created by people talking about the pure -- war.aucratize asian of fou i am hearing about problems of the personalization and the way it is perceived on the other end. there is something profound here, we are talking about the entire struck terror of how people think of work and what it is to work with people when they are in situations that are flesh and blood and sentiment and heart. i don't know if you folks want

to reply to the comment at all. >> is a tough one. thank you for your comment. point taken. >> [unintelligible] we open our circle to all colors, and it works. now they are saying we are not professionals. [unintelligible]

>> this is that are common. cut into academia to -- it cuts into academia, too. >> [unintelligible] >> thank you, sir. >> i am a u.s. army veteran.

i am a female. that is the first thing i want you people to notice. two female veterans, and i say that because i hear he, him. there are women as well. you people are supposed to be the professionals. don't leave us out. that is my first complaint. i have to say i am really upset. i came to this conference and i was really excited. i came all the way from oregon. i was so excited abo this conference. i thought i was going to learn some really great stuff from you experts. i was totally unimpressed this morning. it sounded like all you people are more for war than peace. i thought i was going to learn something about strategy is to treat ptsd. i deal with veterans all the time back home. people committing suicide.

people threatened to commit suicide. many of us veterans have been to class is to try to help our fellow veterans. we know how to heal. maybe all you academics need to take a clue from all of us regular people. i am sorry, i don't mean to be disrespectful, but i have had it up to here. i spent a lot of money, saved a lot of money to come here to try to gain some sort of intelligence from you people to take back. so far, all i have got his total frustration. when you ask you people do not have a clue. i watched all of your faces many were asked that, and i thought to myself, why in the world or any of you up there? they need to have up there was some of us veterans who have been working damned hard to heal

and to help our federal -- our fellow veterans and to help our communities and our families. i am just totally blown away, and i am sorry, i know i am being very disrespectful, but i also know a lot of my fellow veterans are upset right now, hugely disappointed. i think we have a right to say we are disappointed. a lot of us paid a lot of money to come here. >> i think it is a great question. i will be the first to say. academic is nothing if it is not a place for free speech, and you are speaking from your heart, so you don't have to feel bad about that. i will take some responsibility. let me ask a question that will turn it around. i was thinking maybe i should have gotten to this question right away. these people do have some real expertise. what is the golden nugget from where you folks are?

this what i was trying to get at. i would take responsibility. maybe i did not do it in a direct enough way. what is the golden nugget that you have been finding in your practice? you walk around and people don't know this or they do not get. the people you work working with themselves are struggling for it and they don't see it. you have been doing it for 10 or 20 years and you are starting to see it. give us a golden nugget, if you can. maybe that should be what your closing comments are. is that all right? >> i do have a question of shelly. i would like to hear what you als. found that heel

>> building community. when you have a community are around you, you can feel safe. i am 51 years old. i did not feel safe in a group of people until i was 50. from 17 to 50 is a pretty damn long time. some of the things i do with my fellow veterans back home, we don't have any official their recessions, because most people cannot get in, to be very truthful, and people cannot afford to pay for therapy. we do have a lot of practitioners that are offering an hour of their time 0 week for a veteran. that is absolutely wonderful. we really appreciated. we have people doing pro bono work with families, but we still have to have people out there helping.

>> you mean in the public communit >> yes. >> sort of like pro bono, reaching into the community? >> you cannot just fill the veteran. you have to heal the family and the whole community. all of this rebels out. just take of veteran out for coffee. just to feel connected. that is part of the problem. we come back and we do not feel connected. >> i think that is what people are going into politics. people are saying look, you talk about healing, it is me and the whole community. i am learning from this panel that veterans are agents of a

society. it cannot disassociate the healing from the healing of the society. [applause] that is not getting at the heart of what you are concerned about, but your concern earlier about why we are going into politics. people sense that you want to heal from war. you want veterans to heal from war. you also have to have society hill with it. >> that does not mean you have to bring in politics when we are trying to discuss healing. we throw that out the door, quite frankly. we are pretty good at being able to separate policy from troops. military personnel. >> thank you.

>> i am not here to defend the profession, nor am i here to attack individual workers, but one of the things i think we need to do is to keep these messages coming out. there are people who are entrenched with instructors that in fact do have difficulty understanding this. when a military psychiatrists in the u.k. is writing paper saying going to war does not have to hurt, that is a military psychiatrist. he is comfortable working in london. when we find that people in the va in australia have just given an address on vietnam veterans day, and i've tried to address

miss like they are walking time bombs. that would have been like that anyway. these are the kinds of things they hear in the corridors of veterans affairs in australia. i am sure it is the same across other developed countries. i am not your necessarily to defend the current issue. we are in some ways ignorant about the best ways to proceed. we are also fighting a battle on a different front. that is the understanding and acceptance of the individuals in our positions to create circumstances that allow this to happen. when i was on the nac, there was a group of people in tasmania. one veteran was an expert

carpenter. he had a woodworking group, and the government was asked, would you supply would for this group. this is more than just a bunch of guys getting around together and smoking cigarettes and turning wood. there was much more than was visible on the service. the question was raised to us, the government wants to cut funding because we cannot see that this is in any way therapeutic. at which time, i take my hands from the throat of that man making that decision in saying is just wrong. i do appreciate your feelings, and i share them. i am not a veteran. i can only report what i hear from veterans. what i hear is the same kind of things that you are saying, but

we have problems. we did not know how to ameliorate completely the problems that arise when you are confronted with the horrors of war. we don't know how to do that in society. a mental health survey in australia has found that 12% of all women, randomly selected, have a posttraumatic stress disorder. it is not fixed within our society. it is not being fixed within our treatment services. we are battling against attitudes in governments and the administration. you are not alone here. there is no quick fix. there is no easy bullet. we just have to keep chipping away. that is all we can do. thank you. >> dana, your the last one up. >> i was wondering how much

society understands what war is about, in the fact that to my knowledge, all the wars that were fought were external wars except the civil war, fought outside the country. how could it help the healing process? i think the state is somehow [unintelligible] >> in your work, how important is the absence received exempting combat veterans and their families and friends, how important is the relative absence of any experience or

sense of what war is in american society? how much of a role does that absence of experience at the societal level play in the ability of combat veterans to be healed or reintegrated? the fact that your average american does not really have any clue about what war is about, how much of an effect does that have on were healing? i think that is the question. [unintelligible]

>> i cannot answer your whole question, and i gain as much from you is i do from anything else. i know the boundaries that i face, the things i cannot move. i can only do what i can do. how does society learned to welcome anybody? i think one thing simply is, when did you learn about compassion? it was only by suffering. how does anyone learn about compassion? they are abetted by suffering, which is a developmental issue and an issue of luck. if you have been lucky, i don't know how much compassion you are going to get and feel. we are all busy. we are centered in our own lives. much of what we do, we are so

busy leading our own lives that we don't reach out of ourselves. that is a societal issue. what do you do about that? , really don't have an answer so you are causing me to think about something. that is always good. it is always good to have what you believe turned upside down. i live to learn something every day. that is why it is worth getting up the next day. i will have to think about that. i am going to guess what that movie, it starts and one person at a time, one day at time, but you have to wake up and smell the coffee. maybe veterans can help do that, like someone over the head may not do it. something else may have to be done. i will think about it if you

will think about it. >> the other thing i might add is that, we might also be thinking at the wrong level. we are talking about how society treat veterans, and this goes back to one of the earlier comments. it at't need to look at the society level. i have veterans in my neighborhood. it is how do we treat the veterans in our community. it is an individual question as much as is a question about society. >> if those of us who are not veterans or not directly related to veterans took the time to stop and listen, because we thought that we ought to be responsible for what our fellow citizens -- what we have asked our fellow citizens to do, then we would learn that experience

true empathy and what i believe was called deep listening earlier. because society or parts of society can decide not to be responsible for their decisions and can decide to turn away and deny what they have asked other people to do, then you have an inability to learn vicariously through the experiences of people who have actually dealt with war. one gentleman has really been trying to speak. >> no, i have bn really trying not to speak. the question about healing. we had a healing circle this afternoon that showed compassion, that showed love, that showed he inaction, that showed people actually showing their feelings and talking about past history, and other people in that room listening. how many people on the panel

cared enough to be there? >> i could not be there. i had responsibilities. >> i am just saying, people have an excuse for everything. you have to be proactive. >> people did it in different ways. some of us walk around for an hour, trying to get in the mood for this, researching, listening to people. i think the content of the issue is that this panel is set up their radically, not spiritually. you had a very powerful spiritual experience, and the point is that is immediately nursing. this is not practical in that sense. i can understand how that would be frustrating. >> i would like to carry that further, what he just said, that

this is not a spiritual panel that we are on. i believe as an individual that i can take responsibility for my posttraumatic stress. i must still from that myself. when i dove to families, they are like suck it up. we do need to bond as a community, and we cannot ask the government to spend no is of dollars to do something that is not going to get somebody a job behind a desk. this is a committee thing.

-- community thing. >> unfortunately, we have to close. we are 15 minutes over. i just got the marching orders on that. we had wanted to do roundup comment, but i hope it is ok. please continue the conversation. i feel bad as a moderator not digging out some of the nuggets that were there. i think you should trust that they are there. if you have questions, please go directly to the people on this panel and you'll find something. this is hard to do in such a public forum. thank you for your patience, and thank you for being here, all of you. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010]