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a public service created by america's cable companies. >> this week, we continue our interviews from london. dan reed is director and producer of the documentary film "terror in mumbai." the film is about the 2008 terror attacks in mumbai, india, that killed over 175 people. >> dan reed, how would you describe what you do for a living? >> i am a freelance documentary director and producer. i also direct, am a bit of a gun for hire, but i tend to make films that go behind a big news story or go behind something that has made headlines and try to show the more complex side of it and to try and kind of unpack the hidden truths. >> who pays you to do this?

>> i am hired by channel 4, hbo, pbs frontline right now, the bbc. i have worked for the u.k. broadcasters for the last 20 years. >> how many documentaries have you done? >> about 25 or 30, i have lost count. >> we asked you here to talk about "terror in mumbai," which is 2 years old. >> it is the story of the terrorist attack on the city of mumbai on the 26th of november, 2008. it is known in india as 26/11. it is their 9/11, if you like. what happened was, 10 young men came ashore on a beach in mumbai, in south mumbai, which is the most prosperous part of the city, and they started killing. they did not stop killing for

the next 57 hours. and so i tried to tell the story of the attack, both through the eyes of the victims but also through the eyes of the terrorists themselves. >> we are going to show little bit of it in a moment, but before we do that, where were you on that day? >> where was i? it is funny, because i was trying to remember the other day exactly where i was. i think i was in a cutting room. i direct, as well and sometimes i like to do a police procedure or something like that. it is a contrast to all the documentary work i do. >> so you were here in london? >> i was in london, yes. >> how long did it take you to get to mumbai?

>> the genesis of the film, it was not an instant reaction thing. i don't work for news, i am not part of a quick response team, so i am hired on a job by job basis. i do the projects that i like and the projects that for some reason, turn me on. i got a call, i think it was in january, from an executive producer who i like. he asked if i fancied going to mumbai. i had not made a documentary for four or five years. i had been making dramas. i had done a movie. the last documentary i made was called "terror in moscow." it was the story of a siege in a moscow theater. it told the story of a hit squad with women with suicide

belts. it told the story through the eyes of the hostages. it was really about sitting in a theater with your family and friends, powerless, waiting to die. it was about the events that unfolded. i obtained a tape which had been shot by the terrorists in the theater during the siege on one of the hostages'video camera. that was my last documentary for a little while. i went on to do some fiction. mumbai intrigued me so much, and i had a hankering to get back to the documentary world. after a while, talking to actors and living in the fiction

role, you get tired of that after a little while. although i did not know much about the attack at the time, no one did, mumbai seemed like a terrific story to try and tell. >> was that executive producer from hbo? >> hbo came on a little bit later. this was a producer i had worked with in the u.k., years back. he decided to try to tempt me back into a documentary. the notion of mumbai appealed to me, and the challenge of trying to tell a story in a different way, a story which appeared very confused and muddled to me. i did not really understand what had happened in mumbai from reading the papers and watching t.v. reports. there were a lot of conflicting reviews on what happened, a lot of conflicting information. india is a place that intrigued me, and i think of mumbai as a dynamic, modern city.

i had never been to india in my life before i made this film. i touched down in march for the first time, 2009. this was some time after the attack. >> did you go by yourself? >> i did. >> did you have a camera? >> no, the way i approach a film like this is i will go first of all to smell the air. i will go and try and make friends, make contacts, try and understand, try and absorb as much as i can, and understand not by a frontal assault, but by nibbling around the edges to try and feel my way into the story. this was a story that did not surrender itself very easily at all. my first idea was to try and

contact as many victims as possible, people who were there in the railway station when the gunmen started firing or in the luxury hotels when the gunman broke in and started shooting. i had the luxury of being able to take a little bit of time at the beginning of the project, and once you find what you need and start putting together the pieces -- i had never been to the country before. >> how long were you there the first time you went? >> i spent a total of three months overall. the third trip was five or six weeks. >> were you married at the time? >> i am, yes, and i was married. >> you have children? >> i had a son and daughter and i now have another daughter. they are 7, 3, and three months. at the time, my children were littler than they are now.

every time i go away, it is miserable. >> how old are you? >> i am 45. >> where were you educated in this business? >> i never had any training in film or storytelling. i have a degree -- i had a strange kind of academic career. i went to university to do math and physics and then i changed, because i had gone in very young. i changed to russian and french. this is when russia was the unknown other, beyond the looking glass. so i did a degree in russian. it gave me a hunger to explore worlds which were unlike my own. i went as a researcher on a

documentary experience and went on from there. >> i saw your documentary in several places, on hbo, and it has been available more than once on video on demand. i watched it on the internet, where it had a different moderator, different narrator. the hbo documentary -- in the end, who bought this documentary? >> it was commissioned by two broadcasters. one was channel 4 in the u.k. and the other was hbo in the united states. hbo felt they wanted to have a wrap around, which is an introduction and sort of a post script. i was extremely pleased that he came on board, and he revoiced the commentary that we had written. the u.k. version was made

before the american version. the american version was slightly longer. hbo wanted more context and more details. for the uk version, we used dominic west. this was his first ever voice- over narration job. >> let's watch, so those who have not seen this can get a sense of the feeling you put in it. if you pay close attention, all the elements of what is in this are in this opening couple of minutes. >> what you are about to watch is unique. all terrorist attacks so far have been reconstructed or recounted from the point of view of the survivors, witnesses, and first responders. this time, you are with the terrorists. you'll hear the voices of the young men on the ground in mumbai. you will hear their masters in pakistan, and you'll also see

the victims, men, women, and children, and hear from those who survived. it is the first 360 degree view of terrorism. november 25, 2008. an organization determined to surpass al qaeda as the world's most feared terrorist group sent 10 gunmen to mumbai, india's biggest city. the mission was to kill and keep on killing, to stage a spectacle so terrifying that the world could no longer ignore the army of the righteous. indian intelligence intercepted the terrorists' cell phone conversations with their commanders in pakistan.

>> there was much shouting, they were very excited. >> one gunman was captured alive. [speaking foreign language] >> for the army of the righteous, it was a test run for future operations, not just in india, but perhaps elsewhere. their method of attack could easily be adapted to any american city. no hijacked airliners or

sophisticated weaponry, just 10 young men with mobile phones and the assault rifles, programmed to kill and die on command. >> there were a lot of elements in there, when i watched it, i kept asking, where did he get the video of them walking up and down the hotel? where did he get audio of the taliban conversations between pakistan and these 10 men? let's just start with what we just saw there. how many people were killed in mumbai on that occasion? >> at that point it reached nearly 170. 52 or 53 died at the railway station. that was the biggest massacre, although it is the least remembered. it is partly because it was over so quickly, but also because the victims were poor.

>> where did you get the video of the blood on the floor and all the clothes and all that? >> that was camera phone footage, taken by a guy who as a teenager was a beggar at the station. he is an extraordinary guy. he ended up being one of our team. he is a successful young man now, a politician. he grew up as a hobo in the station, so he had a lot of friends at the station when the attack happened. he went in there and went looking for his friends, and he helped collect the bodies as well. he filmed on his camera phone. everyone here is brilliant at using these small films, it is

incredible what they do. everyone has little movies and things. i bought it from him and put it in the film. >> where did you get the audio phone conversations with these 10 young men who did the killings? >> the phone conversations were recorded by two intelligence agencies in india, to my knowledge. the intelligence bureau in new delhi, the capital, and there is a police terrorism unit that made the recordings in mumbai as well. exactly how i obtained recordings, i cannot tell you, because these are not recordings that were released to us by the authorities. >> are the authorities upset that you got them? >> they were rather upset when we got them. i believe a summons was issued

against channel 4 or some kind of legal action was threatened by the mumbai police chief, but it was not followed through. from the indian point of view, yes, it was upsetting, this material was not supposed to be publicly broadcast and it had been given a worldwide audience. on the other hand, it demonstrated that pakistan was behind the attack, and that, for them, was politically useful, i guess. i guess they were not too upset. >> how often were you solicited by people in india once they knew you werer there, doing a documentary, and they wanted to give you stuff? >> nobody wanted to give us anything. it was extremely difficult to pry this material from where it was. that was the hardest part of the production. it was very, very difficult. no one in the indian media and no one in the international media has succeeded in getting

the entire recordings before we did. >> where did you get the closed-circuit video from that two hotels? >> the closed-circuit video from the hotels, again was obtained without the consent of the hotels. they were recordings that existed that had been circulated -- the authorities had them and other actors had them, but we did not obtain them through the front door. we considered this was it -- material that was important for telling the story. we did not see why the material was being -- i suspected that it was being closely guarded because some of it may have been embarrassing to the hotel. it may be considered embarrassing if you are a luxury hotel, to have men walking around a hotel machine gunning your guests.

that is not something you want to draw attention to if you are a luxury hotel. >> have you been back to india since your documentary came out? >> no, i have not. >> has it aired in india? >> in an unlicensed form on one of the local channels in mumbai. it has been seen online. you can see it online, but to answer your question, i don't think it has been broadcast in india on nationwide broadcast. >> the last question on the one fellow you had on camera. how many of the 10 men were killed? >> nine of the 10 men were killed. >> within that 36-hour period? >> the 57-hour period of time, when the last guy at the hotel

was killed or burned to death, that is when the clock stopped. men, women, and children had been killed at the railway station. he killed three cops, and a fourth as he was being captured. the police really had every reason to treat him with extreme prejudice. i was surprised at how gentle they were with him. he has been sentenced to death, but whether that will be carried out or not is a question. the indian legal system is very, very slow. >> did you meet him? >> i never met him. >> how did you get the video? >> again, the video was not released to us. we obtained it because we

thought it had a huge public interest value, but it was very, very difficult. it was the most difficult piece of material to get hold of because it was closely guarded. >> how much of the video you got did you have to pay for? >> we don't like to pay cash for material. we hire people to obtain it for us. you cannot just hire someone. you have a colleague who then worked to obtain it. it is not as if you can walk into a newspaper or some institution in india and say here is two months' work, go and get me this. the obtaining of material like this is a bit of an art. it involves a lot of trust. you have to make relationships with people and have to trust you, and you have to believe you are doing something worthwhile. the material is going to a home

where it will be well and honestly used. >> here is more video from the train station. >> with the terrorists gone, the police rushed out of hiding, weapons at the ready. they had killed 52 people at the station and wounded more than 100.

>> who was the young man? >> he was a young muslim boy who was at the station with his extended family. six of his family were murdered by the surviving gunman and his associates. it was a stroke of luck for me, one of those things you dream about.

these were people who had come from far and wide. it was a railway station, so a lot of people passing through. when the bodies were collected and the wounded were picked up, there was a very, very sketchy record of who they were and where they had gone and even what their names were. was quite difficult to find people, and i had researchers scouring the slums. i started looking for a taxi driver who had lost six members of his family. his name was mohammed israel. eventually i found out he had moved to a village in a distant province, a three days train

ride from mumbai. there was a series of negotiations with the younger members of the family, because i wanted someone to come to mumbai to be interviewed. the fact that here was a muslim family who had come to the railway station and they were going home for the feast of eid, a big day on the muslim calendar. they had been gunned down by these fanatics of an ideology that had nothing to do with the religion of the victims. i felt this was a very core thing for me to get. i said to mohammed, could we bring some more of your family to speak to us? he said yes, there is a 19- year-old boy who will come.

one thing or another happened, and it was not a 19-year-old boy who came, it was a 12-year- old boy who came, accompanied by another member of the family. i thought my god, 12-year-old kids, in london, 12-year-old kids have problems talking about personal things and expressing themselves. this kid was amazing. we found a little shed that we were loaned by local community association. we set up on the floor and i could barely hear his words. he was just incredible. for me he was the heart and soul. >> how many days did you spend total in mumbai? >> with the research and filming together, it took three months, over three months. most of that time would have been research, and i filmed on and off for about a month.

i would film for two days and then take a two-day break to try and assemble another two- day schedule. >> how many people did you have on your team? >> my team was larger than it usually is. we had two or three drivers, and i used a 35 millimeter camera. i wanted to get a sense of the city at night, because the attack began at night. for me, mumbai at night has an incredible atmosphere and mood to it. there were many different types, colors of light. it was visually a very rich place and i decided to shoot in 35 millimeter was no sound and and shoot at six frames a second so that you have these weird, ghostly shapes.

that camera, which belonged to the bombay film industry and mumbai, came in very useful. we also shot interviews on a regular video camera. in order to have the camera -- it had two attendants and a special driver. the basic team was the cameraman, cinematographer, a separate cameraman, a fantastic guy who had shot another documentary, and a sound recordist and production manager and researcher. a 21-year-old guy who used to send out to the slums to look for the names on a list of dead and the names on the list of wounded. >> how did you decide what music to use? >> i wanted to use a specially composed score.

i wanted to use an indian composer. i was looking for an indian composer, and eventually we found a fantastic young composer who had been anointed by the guy who had done the score for "slumdog millionaire." >> when i watch it, the thing that was most intriguing, besides how horrible the whole thing was, was the ability to hear these telephone conversations. set it up before we show a little bit of these calls. what was going on? >> the attack on mumbai was incredibly well designed, if i can say it that way.

it was conceived with a kind of evil genius, because they took 10 young men who were not hardened fighters, and they had a minimum of training. they were able to control and reinforce their psychological condition by use of the mobile phones. these kids were in constant touch with the operations center in pakistan, where the men who had launched the mission are sitting and saying now you must do this, and remember this, very calmly, controlling it and the gunmen they had sent to kill in mumbai. there was less religious spiel than i expected before i heard them. a lot of it seemed, not mundane, but everyday, as though they lived in a world where the

taking of life and this kind of extraordinary killing spree that they were on was just a normal thing to be doing. the whole thing kind of reminded me of listening to the communications between what we call in london a cab office, a dispatchers control room, with a bunch of guys sitting around with mikes and talking to the cab drivers. that is what it felt like to me. >> -- is the main guy, the emcee in the whole thing. he does not seem to be the ultimate authority within the terrorist group, the army of the righteous. he does not seem to be mr. big, but he is the guy who runs the operation.

he is awake a lot of the time, on the microphone, talking to young guys very calmly. he is like a father figure, and he does most of the talking. "the washington post" ran an article today that identified him, but i have not read the article. >> let's listen. >> little use was made of them, but the authorities would intercept a total of 284 calls. most involve a single controller, identified only as a brother wasi. his grip on the gunmen would not loosen until they were dead.

as scores of people were being gunned down at the railway station, another pair of clean- cut pakistani boys in their early 20s blasted through the entrance of one of mumbai's top five-star hotels. the lead gunman wore black. he and his accomplice killed nine staff and three guests in the lobby. at a popular eatery, 13 diners were murdered. >> the whole place was very silent. i could not see my friends. whenever i tried to look, i saw she had not moved. she was in the same position

from the time she got shot. so was my cousin and his wife. i try to touch my cousin's leg. i succeeded, but he did not move. >> who was the woman you talked to? >> the young lady from the hotel was one of the few people in south mumbai, the upscale neighborhood in mumbai, were one of the victims in the hotel's came from. they would go there and have dinner and have parties. most of the people from that sector of society just wanted to have nothing to do with the media. they were very distrustful. they had been given a hard time by the indian media. she was someone who had been having a meal with some

friends, they got together on tuesday evening and the gunman came in just butchered everyone in the restaurant. she was lying there, surrounded by her dead friends, bleeding profusely from five bullet wounds. she somehow managed to survive. she was calling for help, but no one came. what i discovered in researching this story was there was such chaos that the victims often just could not get help. even senior police officers calling for help, but there was no help, because the city was taken completely by surprise and no one had any idea what was going on. that is the impact of the surprise attack. the evil genius of the design of this plan was that there were so many events going on, there were bombs in taxis being detonated. a taxi would be far away in the suburbs or at the airport and a bomb would go off. the police controller, looking

at the picture, it would see bombs going off, gunmen here, gunmen there. there was just a panic, and you would not know what the hell was going on. >> your critical of the mumbai police department in the documentary. what did you say about them? >> the mumbai police department kind of fell apart in the early hours of the attack. they were eventually replaced by commanders from new delhi, specialist commanders who took a long time to arrive. their plane was not ready and there were all sorts of delays. so the response was very slow. i was talking to people in new york who were saying if it happened in new york, those guys would be dead within minutes. i do not think that is the case. the attack had such dynamism, such an impact. it is so hard to get information on what is happening, that even in a place

like new york or here in london, i think almost as many people would have died in the first half hour. i think the impact of the attack is such that people don't know what to make of it. i have been having requests for my film and receiving e-mail requests from various swat teams, homeland security officials who are desperate to find out what an attack like this looks like. maybe if it happens here now, we are better prepared because we have seen what happened in mumbai. i think that these guys change their methods all the time. they will not do the same thing twice. each time, 9/11 and this attack, what they have in common is that they are almost inconceivable. there is something about the design of the attack that just creates disbelief. you are sitting there for about 10 minutes thinking, this cannot be happening.

>> are we to believe this is all about kashmir? >> no, it is not all about kashmir. i made the decision -- i did not go to pakistan and tried to unlock the pakistani side of the story more than i was able to do from india, which was not very much. i had recordings, which told me a great deal about the relationship between the controllers and the gunmen, and i had as much information as i could discover about the group that did it. i believe more has now come to light about the motives and character of the army of the righteous, which carried out the attacks. it was an organization that came about because of the conflict in kashmir.

it was used as a proxy to attack india in is disputed between is disputed territory of kashmir. they needed to do something very visible to put itself back amongst the stars of the jihadist movement. it was a highly visible attack on an international target. it was not a pakistan versus india type of local attack. >> the one fellow that we saw that was talking, he tells the story about being brought into the group by his father. what kind of village did he come from?

>> by his own account, he came from a village close to lahore in the punjab. this was a kid who had gone a bit wrong, he had a bad relationship with his dad. he was doing odd jobs, painting houses. he told the police he had been a robber. he had the typical profile of a young man who gets drawn into these jihadist groups. he had dabbled in petty crime. and they go into a group like this, they are drawn by the glamour and glory, i guess. suddenly you have a purpose, you have a family, who are your brothers in arms. you have a father, they call them uncles, who nurtures your career as a fighter who goes to

die in combat. you are offered this deal. you go to mumbai, you get to kill anyone you want, any one of these bad people out there. >> so they are told in advance they are going to kill? >> yes. there is a process of selection. only the most capable and malleable get chosen. >> when in the process of the three months you spent there did you get the different ingredients for this documentary? how far along the way to get the telephone calls? >> i would say after about six or seven weeks i was told that i would get the audio calls. >> where were you set up, by the way? where did you live while you were there?

>> i was in an old hotel in the center of town. i could not afford to stay in one of the big hotels. i kind of liked it. it was a rundown hotel opposite the main hospital. >> whoever bought this, either channel 4 or hbo, did they say this is how much money we will give you for the whole thing and then you have to live on that? >> that is right, you live within a budget. you do not have to put up your own money. you cannot spend more than what you have. i like to put as much of it as i can on screen. >> can you give us any idea how much money this whole thing cost? >> after all the marketing, in the region of $400,000, maybe less. the u.k. version by itself would have cost a lot less. >. who owns the rights to this now? >> the rights are owned by channel 4 and hbo.

>> do you own the original video and audio that you were able to research? >> i retained copies. who owns that is a moot point. >> is there another documentary you could put together out of all this? >> i am very curious about what i was told today, that the article that identified brother wasi -- if i could get to him, there would be another film. this man's voice, an educated voice, speaking good english -- he was speaking to one of the israeli hostages and having a very "don't worry madame, it will all be okay, you'll be home for the sabbath." very soothing, well-educated, one would think, and completely

ruthless. >> you had a turkish couple. let's watch them and get you to tell us about it. >> i turned face down and they started to shoot and all the bodies were falling on me. i was buried by the bodies from my waist down. he left five people alive. the other 10 had been gunned down on the narrow landing. >> you can hear them, some of them were not dead yet. you can hear the sounds of their last -- i don't know. we had to, you know, step over those people. >> i said look, i stepped on the back of this man and on the neck of that man, and i will

hold your hand. i lifted the poor woman over the bodies and i told them not to step on the blood. i never knew that blood could be so slippery. >> at the same time as the attack on the trident hotel, two backpackers had strolled into the most exclusive hotel in the city. each carried an assault rifle, pistol, hand grenades, hundreds of bullets, and enough dried fruits and nuts to last a couple of days. they began killing anyone in their sights. they were soon joined by the two terrorists who had just killed 11 civilians at the leopold cafe a block away.

the newcomers narrowly avoided bullets meant for hotel guests. the two pairs joined forces in the lobby by the swimming pool. there were now four gunmen inside the taj. >> who was the turkish couple? >> there were having dinner at the hotel. they were on a business trip to mumbai. he makes luxury yachts. within an hour, they were watching their fellow guests being murdered on a narrow staircase. this was one of the most harrowing things of the whole attack. they are muslim turks, and when the terrorist check their passports, they realized they were muslims and they told him

to step aside while they murdered all the other men. they were then taken to a hotel bedroom and locked in with two women. eventually the two women were taken outside and shot in front of them. so the turks were taken to yet another bedroom, set down on the bed, and just left there. their lives were spared, we are told, because of their faith. they -- the muslim religion has nothing in common with that of their attackers, they made that very clear. this was one of the weirdest and strangest episodes of the whole story. i flew to istanbul and i was amazed at their courage to go on and speak of this.

>> what are you like during one of these periods? >> i am very obsessive. i get altered by the story, and it inhabits my dreams. it has a terrible effect on my family life because i am kind of absent. i have learned to counter that, i hope. i was obsessed with the story of this turkish couple. there were four guys in the group that they saw being killed. there were four guys who survived under the pile of bodies. the turkish couple watched the group of men being machine gunned by the terrorists and fall to the floor dying. they are taken off to another place. meanwhile, four of the guys under the pile of bodies are

still alive. i met with two of them in mumbai and tried to persuade them to be in the film, and they said no. i was in the cutting room about a month later and i got a call from the son of one of these guys. he said they had just watched "terror in moscow," the film i had made earlier. they said they had no idea i was a serious film maker. he said his father would like to take part, but by then it was too late. there are certain things i believe i have to do and have to get into the story. if you ask my wife, i probably take it a little too seriously. >> what do you tell people who emailing you, wanting to get a copy of this?

>> they can see the film online. i believe there are various sites that have put it up. i want people to go and watch it. i would like it people were able to buy a dvd or to download it legally. in london that is not possible. >> i know hbo has put it on demand, but it is not right there at the moment. >> i hope they put it back on, because there has been a tremendous demand for it. now and again i will send a disk to someone if they reach me personally, but there is a limit to how much i can send. i would love it to be available for sale. >> back to the question about audio and now the video. where did you first meet the fellow who was at the train station? >> he was a guy still hanging

around the train station. he was one of the guys who could smooth the way in getting permissions and stuff like that. we got that fairly early on. the audio was already in london. the audio came to us about two- thirds of the way through. a big challenge with audio, it was seven hours worth of telephone intercepts. i had to have it translated, of course, because i was not going to miss anything. having it translated and finding people who spoke the right dialects and whom i trusted to give me an accurate, completely objective and impartial rendition of what was being said, and to go over every detail.

sometimes the line was bad and you can only hear a half word. other people have got hold of these tapes and recordings. i am probably one of the only people with a full translation of the whole thing, because it is expensive and it takes a lot of time to do. we had it checked and rechecked and rechecked. i am very, very thorough. i like to know when we broadcast something, it is absolutely right. >> it came out in june 2010? >> 2009. >> when did it run on hbo? >> in late november 2009, last year. >> if you could do this again, right now, given material you did not have at the time, would you put it in? >> the whole story, it the american pakistani guy who did

reconnaissance for the mission -- there are elements that have come to light about the pakistani side to the story since i made the film. i retain an interest in all the stories i do, but i cannot put the kind of energy that i do when i am in production into stories i have left behind me. it is a story i would like to return to. at the moment, i do not have the key elements that would allow me to make another film about it, but this is a story that will keep on revealing layer after layer and keep on getting richer and richer, i think. >> you mentioned a documentary on haiti. when does it run? >> that is for pbs frontline and it will be running on the anniversary of the haiti earthquake, january 12, 2011.

it will be an hour long film. it is an unusual angle on the haitian earthquake. the film is about the mass jailbreak that took place during the earthquake. not only did haiti lose 250,000 people, not only was the capital city wrecked, about two- thirds of the prison population escaped during the quake and was unleashed on a society at its most vulnerable. >> how long did you spend in haiti? >> i spent two months shooting at. and one of the escapees had been recaptured. you have to track people down. there is always a way to find

people. >> what has been the impact of "terror in mumbai," the documentary? it has been aired by london and the united states. >> i hesitate to express it like this, but i think it is a historic piece. we have never had the kind of material like these phone calls. it gives you an inside seat. we have never heard terrorists' intimate conversations with their bosses. taken together with the other material, it adds up to something unique, not just an insight into the way the terrorists operate, but it shows the relationship between the controllers and the gunmen.

the controllers never shouted. there's never been -- there was never any hysteria, even when the gunmen had been hit and were dying. there was complete calm. i think that is strange and significant. i think it tells us a lot about the relationship. i always kept thinking of children and youngsters who grew up through abuse and the way the relationship -- it is not consensual, but there is a kind of normality that establishes itself between children, young people who are groomed for abuse and the abusers. there is a sort of relationship that sets in. i kept being reminded of that. i kept thinking, why would a young man like this let himself be sent there by this person sitting in an office miles and miles away.

why would they do that? the fanatical religious rhetoric was not really there. it was something else. these are people who had been groomed and psychologically shaped so that what they are doing had become normal. this is what you did. it was normal. to me, that was the biggest horror. >> dan reed, producer and writer of "terror in mumbai." thank you for your time. >> for a dvd copy of this program, call 1-877-662-7726. for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q-and- a.org. "q&a" programs are also available as c-span podcasts.

[captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> next, prime minister but david cameron at the house of commons. then an exclusive interview with elena kagan. then a portion of the senate debate on the start treaty. tomorrow on "washington journal, close crude andrew fieldhouse will talk about how the tax code will pecksniff shares paycheck. stewart baker on concerns about al qaeda and attacking the u.s. over the holidays. and then portions of the tax bill favorable to special interests.

"washington journal" live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> he is breaking his promise and he does not want to a admitted. he wants to leave it to the back wall, the deputy prime minister to break its promises, accept some responsibility. >> in his last question time before the holiday recess, david cameron talked about recent positive signs to stabilize the british economy. the labor leader challenge the prime minister over the decision to scrap the educational allowance for low-income students. some questions on the irish economy and british unemployment report. report. >>