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♪ >> this sunday we will spend an hour talking with former president bush about his life and his new book "decision point." >> you don't mention scott mcclellan, along with serving press secretary. >> that is true. >> he went out and wrote a book that was somewhat critical.

>> this is a book about decisions. this is not a book about personalities or gossip or settling scores. i did not think he was relevant. >> see the entire interview sunday night at 8 eastern and pacific on c-span's "q&a". >> the communicators is on location at the state of the net conference. joining us now is ambassador philip verveer. he is the deputy assistant secretary of state and the u.s. coordinator for communications and information policy. ambassador, what does the u.s. coordinator for communications and information policy do? >> we try to represent the united states with respect to those issues with their counterparts around the world and in the course of doing that, we try to coordinate the u.s. government positions so that we are going forward with unified

perspectives when we see our counterparts. >> millions of people are connected around the world today via the internet. does the u.s. government need to have a policy about that? >> we do. among other things, communications turns out to be one of those areas of life where cooperation is critically important. it is essential. we would not be able to deal with our foreign friends if we did not have modalities of cooperation. there are institutions that deal with that on a regular basis. we also have very important bilateral arrangements that we need to attend to on a regular basis. >> secretary clinton gave a speech about a year ago on the internet freedom. what was the basis of that speech, and how has that affected u.s. policy around the world? >> the speech has to

foundations. one is there is clearly a human rights aspect internet freedom -- human rights aspect internet freedom. something that you find in your virtual declaration of human rights. there is also an economic aspect to it. connectivity is something that is very important in terms of commercial activities. the speech was intended to make the case that we need to have mechanisms that respect the rights of individuals to communicate. we also need to have mechanisms that ensure the free flow of information for economic reasons as well. >> recently in tunisia, the president was kicked out, but the use of social networking and text messages and mobile technology played a key role in leading to that downfall. >> i think that is right.

it is one factor among a great many, but the relative ease of communication, the ability of people to know what is going on, to have some sense of the concerns of the whole makes some difference. does permit some mobilization of societies in terms of political and activities as well as many other activities. indonesia, it seems to have had an important role. >> tunisian essentially was a u.s. ally. we had a foreign language training school there. did the u.s. get itself involved in this revolution at all? >> i don't think we were involved in fomenting any sort of revolution. our ambassador was very clear with the tunisian government that some of the activities that were taking place in terms of trying to suppress the

demonstrations, trying to limit the uses of social media, were things that we thought were objectionable and ought not occur. the ambassador in that sense was anxious to see to it that the principles that we believe are very important were well articulated. we had hoped it would be -- >> president hu jintao china is in town. china has been in the news quite a bit when it comes to telecommunications policy and social media. what is the u.s. position when it comes to the chinese government and its view of essentially private technology? >> as we like to say, we have a very broad, deep, and comprehensive relationship with our chinese friends. there are a lot of areas where we have significant agreements and where our interactions have been very productive.

it is one of the most essential relationships on the planet and one that may be among the most important for the 21st century to see it work out well. it is something we work at very hard on a continuing basis. we have issues with the chinese that we are very frank about with respect to both the free flow of information within china and also with respect to chinese respect for intellectual property rights. these are issues that we discuss with them on a regular basis in a very frank way. with the hope that over time we are born to see what we would regard as improvements -- going to see what we would regard as improvements. >> the google need to develop a policy when it comes to a business model in china, or should they be allowed to operate as a private business? >> these are very complicated questions.

the things that one might say about it or something like first, engagement including commercial engagement tends to be good. in the absence of other important factors, one would like to see our companies involved in activities all over the world. secondly, the chinese are very quick to say that companies that operate in china have to observe chinese law. in many respects, that is a not objectionable principle. then you get to the third point, which is chinese law with respect the privacy of communications and the free flow of information, with respect to enforcement of property rights arrangements are areas where we think very significant improvement is available. for private companies, this kind of issue is a very difficult

one. there is a very important institution call the global network initiative that several private companies have involved and developed. it tries to lay out some principles that companies would engage in and observe when they operate in societies that may not have quite the same records as we might find here in the united states or in many other countries that share our values. i think this global network initiative is something that in its own right and in terms of the principles it has can be helpful to companies that would engage in china and elsewhere. we continue to have some concerns about censorship or even political repression. >> does the u.s. government have a position on the south korean initiative to require people to

use their real names of registering an email? >> i think it is fair to say that generally we have a view that anonymity continues to be something that is valuable in terms of internet activities and communication. if you can understand why this is a close question in many societies. we are not trying to dictate to people. we appreciate that certain kinds of efforts to find a proper balance are in fact appropriate. we are not trying to claim that everybody has to do things precisely the way we do them. >> when it comes to a country like iran, what kind of records has the state department made to open up internet freedom? >> iran presents perhaps a very extreme case, because it is clear that the authorities there

have undertaken extraordinary efforts to suppress free speech, to center activities, to persecute people who might attempt to exercise what we regard as human rights with regard to political and related matters. the united states is concerned about that. we have fairly strong sanctions in place that we try to bring to bear with respect to iran. when it comes to communications related products, we try to be sophisticated about whether or not those sanctions ought to limit what is made available in iran. this is a responsibility at the end of the day of the treasury department, one that the state department engages in as well. we try to have a relatively broad approach to try to

encourage the government of iran to make certain concessions to free speech, to political participation. i think it is fair to say that at the moment we don't feel as though these are areas where we are making great headway. >> what is the budget of the communications and information agency? >> it is not really a separate agency as such. it is part of the economics bureau in the department of state. it is an area where there are less than 20 by professionals who work at this full-time. as you would expect anyone responsible for these matters to say our budget is only barely adequate. we would be very grateful for more resources if they could be made available. >> you have been public service for about 35 years. >> in and out of public service is right to think of it. >> how did you get interested in communications policy, for

lack of a better term? >> it was an accident. i was a staff attorney at the justice department back in the early 1970's. by some chance that i have never understood the basis of, i was asked to look into the question of whether or not the old at&t telephone system might be a violation of the sherman act. i began that process in september of 1973 and it has caused me to address communications related issues almost constantly ever since. >> that 1973 work you did lead to what? >> eventually led to the bringing up antitrust complaint against the old bell system, and over time, it led to the breakup of the phone company into several different pieces. this was something we had their rightist would increase the

dynamism in the sector, and that turns out -- something we had their rightist -- theorized would increase the dynamism in the sector. >> what kind of work did you do while you are there? >> the chief of these bureaus is the senior civil servant who reports to and makes recommendations to the commissioners about what the policy should be and also is the person who manages the implementation of those policies that various bureaus. this is going back a very long time now, 30 years by actual count. the issues in the cable area or whether or not cable television industry should be permitted broader latitude to offer services. at the time it was somewhat suppressed by virtue of concerns about what it might do to over

the air broadcasting. and in the telephone area it was a whole series of issues, some of which tend to be with us even today, including the issue of how we deal with transmission companies as far as content. something a little bit similar to the recent net neutrality decision. >> you have worked on breaking up the baby bells. you worked on cable-tv and also the federal advisory committee on spectrum issues. now you are at the state department, working on social policy and international communications. is that a natural transition caused more >> it is fair to say that a lot of things i have done over the 35 years or so or adjacent to what i am doing today. the geopolitical dimension is new to me.

a lot of the foundational questions have some genuine familiarity. >> are we at a point where telecommunications policy needs to be internationally regulated? >> i don't know about regulated. it is certainly true that we need to have common understandings and standards for these things to work. with respect to the internet, i think there are genuine concerns about intergovernmental controls. it would inevitably affect the dynamism of the area in ways that ultimately would be counterproductive. it might aid in terms of administrations that are inclined towards censorship or political repression.

we are anxious to try to keep the internet largely free from controls, operating the way it is today. >> would be fair to say that some of those countries that might be inclined toward that our u.s. allies, such as egypt? >> there are countries that for a variety of reasons would want to see intergovernmental controls. the internet has become critical to every country in the world, including citizens. you can understand the sense that there may be anomalies in terms of not really being subject to any sort of overarching or overall control. there is also a tendency to think that the united states controls the internet because it originated here, but i think that really is a kind of misplaced sense of the situation. we don't control the internet. it turns out no national

demonstration controls the internet. by almost any assessment, it is the largest and most successful cooperative venture in the history of the world, and has been very successful in that particular way. we would like to see it continue on that way. >> is one of the areas of concern cyber security, especially from overseas? >> is something we are concerned with. there are a lot of centers of activity with respect to cyber security. it is something that comes up in the bilateral realms in which i operate. it remains an important activity. >> deputy assistant secretary of state, ambassador philip

verveer. generally what is going to be your message? >> the message would be something like this is very close to the top of the agenda with respect to every country that we engage in conversation with. there are concerns across a broad range of subject matters about how we are going to contend with this very important developing activity. the thing we are most concerned about is maintaining a certain amount of privacy so that all the use cloud computing will feel secure that the information will not be misused or stolen and so forth. on the other hand, to see to it

that the inherited in the inherent deficiencies are not necessarily diminished by our efforts to ensure that privacy is well maintained. we have balanced and optimization we are trying to work with. i think it's fair to say that this is a subject that is seriously affected by legitimate concerns on the part of law enforcement and security agencies about how they can get access inappropriate circumstances to information they need with respect to their investigations and activities to try to maintain the security of their respective societies. it is a very complicated area. we are much closer to the beginning of the story than we are to the end of the story. beck's ambassador philip verveer, thank you for being on "the communicators." joining us now is edward felten, the chief technologist at the federal trade commission.

>> i am senior advisor to the chairman and commissioners at the ftc. i am an internal consultant on technology in policy issues. i do some liaison and an ambassador to the technical community and the tech industry and the help the other technologists within the agency to be more effective. >> but as the ftc needed chief technologist? >> the ftc is doing an increasing amount of work in areas like online privacy and competition and so on. the leadership in the agency decided they wanted to have more access to technical advice. if you are going to be working in this area, and helps to have people in house to speak the language. >> what is your background when it comes to on-line privacy and what is your general philosophy? >> i am a computer scientist. i have been a computer science

professor at princeton for 17 years. my technical research in teaching has been largely in online security and privacy. i come from a long background in the technical aspects of this. i have also worked on some public policy issues as an academic related to security and privacy. that is the basis for a lot of what i expect to be doing at the ftc. as far as a basic approach to the issues, it seems to me that the key issue is empowering consumers, giving consumers better information about what is happening and more effective choices about how their information is gathered and used. ideally, that is something that can be done through the technology, but obviously, government is watching to make sure that companies behave responsibly with consumer data. >> there is so much information already out there.

can we protect consumers' privacy right now? >> there are some things we can do. people make decisions every day about when to reveal information. people understand that there are sometimes risks when you decide to reveal information to someone. that has always been true, even before the internet. full we can do is to make sure that people have better if visibility into the consequences of the choices they are making, and more effective choice. we don't want consumers to be surprised to learn that information was gathered in a particular way. >> do you agree with the current opt out policies? >> generally speaking, i do. i think that if consumers understand what choice they are making, adult consumers, if they

understand what uses are being made of their other data, they ought to be able to make that choice. >> this is your first d.c. job. what has surprised you? >> it certainly has been a different experience being inside the government looking out, as opposed to outside looking in. i have been involved in the policy process for all files, even as an academic. have testified on the hill a few times and so on. i work part-time as a consultant to the ftc, so i have sort of eased in. surly things to look different. there are things going on that happen quietly that are not visible to the outside. when you are sitting outside watching and reading and attending events and so on, you get a lot of the picture but you don't get the full picture as to

what is happening and why decisions are being made the way they are. >> define that comforting? >> i do. certainly my experience at the ftc has been comforting in the sense that the people making the decisions are well-informed and do have the best interest of consumers at heart. certainly i have been impressed by the people i have worked with thus far. >> what is freedom to tinker? >> first, it is a blog that i started about 10 years ago. it has grown into a group blog talking about technology and policy issues. i am not writing it there while i am in government, but some of my colleagues still are. people who work with technology ought to be able to get their hands on the technologies, and people ought to be able to repair and study and discuss the

technologies that they use every day. >> there are two separate technologies that you tinkered with. music and voting machines. >> among others, yes. tell us about that. >> let's start with voting machines. there has been a trend in recent years in the u.s. to vote more electronically. in some places, boating has gone to an all electronic system where you just vote by pushing buttons on a screen and the boats are recorded in ad entirely electronic wait -- the votes are regarded in an entirely electronic way. you push some buttons and at the end of the day, some numbers come out of the machine that you hope are in the vote totals. but how do you know, how can you be sure that things were done correctly? there is a level -- there is

less transparency with that system than with more traditional voting systems. i have done work on particular voting machines used in certain parts of the country, ranging from issues and problems with them and trying to work on how to vote electronically in a way that is more secure. >> and with music? >> i have also done in my academic research on technologies for delivering and copy protecting music and looking at the implications of the technology is that of that, to try to prevent in illegal copying of music. it is a perfectly legitimate and appropriate thing for technology to to do, but some of these systems have had side-effects that have been harmful. >> such as? >> one of the more famous cases

of this, and one that i had some involvement in was related to a bunch of compact disk that installed software onto consumers computers without obtaining consent. it caused some security problems on consumers' computers. certainly would not expect when you went to listen to a compact disk on your computer that you would be letting yourself and for potential security trouble. my technical work was around how that happened and what could be done to keep it from happening again. >> is it safe to say that you hacked into voting machines and music software? >> you have to be careful of the use of the word hacked. it tends to be used different between the technical community and sometimes in the press. i would characterize it that we study these systems and learn how they work and talk about what the implications were. i think pat has the connotation

that does not really match. >> you are here at the state of the net conference. what will you be talking about? >> i am on a panel about cloud computing and security and privacy implications. cloud computing is the trend toward taking it data and competition that people in companies have traditionally done on their own computers and moving it out to a facility that is run by a company. there is a panel to talk about the security and privacy policy implications of that. >> as a computer scientist, what are your concerns about the security of cloud computing? >> there are two issues that are relatively new with clout computing. one is that your data tends to be stored in more places with clout computing. yuri immelt might once have been stored just on your laptop or -- your e-mail might once have been stored just on your laptop or stored just on your laptop or