will talk about the effort to stop the spread of bedbugs and law professor david skeel on businesses declaring bankruptcy. this is "washington journal." host: it's 2:00 p.m. in cairo right now, and another day of clashes between government and anti-government forces is underway. the military remains the bull work between the factions. military leaders have called for hoss any mubarak to step down in power. we want to hear from you if you think mubarak and egypt have been good allies. now all week during this crisis

in egypt we had our fourth line open for ejitchings americans and we would like to hear from you as well. you can also send us an email at journal@c-span.org or if you are a twitter user, you can send a tweet, twitter.com/cspanwj. go ahead and start dialing in now. some of the front pages from this morning. this is "the new york times." you can see kind of a banner headline here. mubarak's backers storm protesters. here is the financial times. egypt divided by violence and mubarak supporters strike back. we'll be showing you those

headlines on this morning's "washington journal." this is in the business section of "the new york times" this morning. jitters for oil companies that ship through egypt. the outbreak of violence in egypt worry the posing of disruption of oil supplies. so far they have not been interrupted and security has been stepped up around the canal and pipelines.

host: and about 14% of the global lick wefied gas trade shipped through the canal as well providing critical supplies to spain and south korea and the u.s. egypt also produces about 3% of

the lick wefied gas supplies at two terminals which were reported to be operating normally. general james mattis head of the united states central command said on tuesday it was inconceivable that anyone would want to disrupt the canal. he said were it to happen obviously we would have to deal with it diplomatically, economically, militarily whatever. but that is reuters quoting him as saying that to a policy group in london. that's on oil shipments. we want to hear from you whether or not you think mubarak has been a good u.s. ally. this video is within the last half-hour and courtesy of alga zeroa english -- al-jazeera english, which still has cameras operating there. caller: good morning.

as you for having me. host: what do you think of mubarak? has he been a good al aye? caller: well in the interest of the united states he certainly has been willing to do what we tell him, however, i think in the long run it's caused us to pay a high price. i think we've been a little short-siteed in our foreign policy. specifically we have wanted short-term cooperation but at the expense of long-term interest. you can see the people have grown increasingly frustrated because of the lack of employment and opportunity, and it's now come back to bite us. in other words you may have a dictator that is an ally but in the long run it creates what we are seeing now, all of this uncertainty and chaos. host: do you have family still in egypt and have you been able to communicate with them? caller: yes.

i do and they are concerned. there's a lot of instability and things are getting worse. there's a concern for food shortages and stores are running out of supplies and getting looted when they run out of supplies and families are sharing food because some families didn't have anything stocked up. so there's a concern that the longer this goes on, the worse it's going to be and the one thing that's been discuss asked why extent u.n. getting involved? i think this is something worth considering because there's validity that if the u.s. gets too involved it will appear as if it's a u.s.-engineered revolution which will discredit the protesters. so why isn't the u.n. getting involved? and the u.s. going and getting an international effort to ensure the transition occurs immediately and fairly. host: two final questions.

when it comes to communications with family in egypt, we've heard reports about email and mobile services being blocked. have you had any problems? >> email is back up. facebook is back up. cell phones are spotty. i mainly communicate through land lines. host: and is your family or was your family mubarak supporters now or at any point? caller: well, i hesitate to speak on their behalf. i think no one could really be anti-mubarak, at least openly. it was limited how much political dissent you could express. but the consensus is mubarak, it's time for him to leave.

the issue is the laws are so rigged towards the national democratic national security if you don't change the constitution, it's going to be difficult for other parties to actually win, so there has to be a change in the constitution and a lifting of the emergency law and whoever leaves the transition has to have a lot of credibility so during the transition period spoilers don't ruin the process towards fair and free elections. so it is a bit of a complex situation. and the intellectuals i spoke to said it's not as simple as getting him out. there's disagreement as to how he can leave so that there's stability. you don't leave one problem and create another problem that could be much worse. host: wall awalla washington on the line, has president mubarak been a good u.s. al aye? caller: yes, he has. host: why?

caller: first off he has been an assistance of keeping things calm there in the very beginning. and what has come in this young lady did not speak about is hamas. and hamas is the one stiring up the stuff there. and that's the reason that news agency that is for the other group self-allowed in there. our newspeople over there is being killed. host: steve on our independent line. caller: seeps to me more important -- seems to me more important wouldn't be whether or not they are a good ally but if they were doing the bad things everybody wants to believe. i think that's the more the question.

host: brian is a democratic in edgewater, florida. do you think hosni mubarak has been a good ally over the last years? caller: i don't think the question is relevant. i think the question is if he was a good ally does that mean we should support him as opposed to the people petitioning for their freedom? host: the point here -- caller: the point here is that we have to support people everywhere that strive for their freedom and their democracy. host: thank you for calling in. a new story, egypt's prime minister poll apologizes for the attack on anti-government protesters in cairo vowing to investigate who was behind it. independent line, ken, good morning. what do you think? whoops? ken, i'm sorry. start again. i'm sorry. i forgot to push the button.

caller: i was going to say i'm so glad for c-span. it's awesome to hear so many people speaking as i think, too, i don't think the question is whether mubarak has been a good ally. i think it's irrelevant when viewed through the lens of the people of egypt. it's really about them. are they getting their, you know, -- are they getting a fair shakedown of democracy? and i don't think they are, as we can see. i think what's going on is this is kind of scaring some of the other regimes in the area, because if they see that egyptians or -- a quote-unquote moderate country can come up off of so much oppression and being under the thumb of that dictator for so many years, maybe that will happen in other countries, and i think that's what's really going on is people are starting to get

fearful of the instability. host: albany, new york. caller: i think the question is not whether he's been a good ally. only because on the one hand you can say yes, mubarak is a good ally because he supports america's foreign policy and keeps that area of the world stable, but on the other hand egypt has been -- for the last 30 years, according to american standard, that's not an ally to the united states. stability through oppression of people for 30 years is not an ally i want for america. there's a map this morning in

"the new york times." here is a map of central cairo. there's a nile river of course the island in the middle of the river. and all of this is downtown cairo. here is the area of detail where everything is happening. by the way, if airport is about out here in cairo. now, in this area of detail. this little area of cairo right here. what you have along the bank of the nile river on the eastern bank, you have the egyptian museum, of course where a lot of the conflict has been happening. and this is the main area of conflict right here. just to the left here is the ramsey's hilton which is a favorite place for a lot of werners to stay. so the area it's happening is right here. here is the square as well. muncie, indiana, craig on our independent line, has president

mubarak been a good ally? caller: i think that question itself is important. he was put there by us and what we basically want them to do is keep ejigses out of the gaza strip. we have to respect that. he has done that. we don't know whoever comes in if they are going to be so israel-friendly. we hear so many things such as john bolton said this would be the perfect time for israel to attack iran because we don't know if their borders are going to be secure. so i think it's not the time to encouraging other wars or invading other nations but the people if they have the democratic election are we going to treat them like the gaza strip if the person who we don't want to win, wins? this is not about if we are going to try to exert our military power on them or

anything. our money has been able to keep them quiet for 30 years, the next one if they don't take our payout to act as a security flinge that border with israel, we could be in trouble. and all these other countries are doing the same. all of our -- are getting overthrown. host: donald rums if he would's book his autobiography comes out. "known and unknown" quickly here are three takes from three different papers. in the book rums if he would recalls bush's early iraq focus. bush invited rums if he would to meet with him alone in the oval office. the president leaned back in his leather chair and ordered a review and revision of war plans but not for war plans where the war and attack had

been planned he asked that i take a look at the shape of our military on iraq. here is politico. donald rums if he would writes of his iraq role. he says in a knew book that he wanted to oversee the initial reconstruction of iraq following the u.s. invasion but was rebuffed by george w. bush. bush didn't cotton to the idea and writes yet to be known -- yet to be released memoir known and unknown. and then secretary rums if he would the master of the tart. personified bravado saying stuff happens about the early looting and admits his old quip

was hardly deaf diplomacy. that's three leads. the book comes out next week and "book tv" here on c-span will be covering dofpbledrums if he would. he'll be speaking at the national constitution center. two things, we'll be taping that event. the full event in prime time. but it will also be a live webcast that night on "book tv."org february 9. next call comes from philadelphia. john on our democrats line has president mubarak been a good ally? caller: i think so, but i definitely wanted to speak on the issue of this headless group in trying to install a democracy. try to remember we have a tendency to forget how difficult it was for this country to institute and try our best to develop a constitution. and i think the gentleman spoke

about this kind of process and how difficult it would be to install it. it takes time. but the headlessness of this group, there's nobody coming forth and suggesting that let's sit down. how do you get people from this group sit down? a group of people that will be running for office that will constitute a new group that's coming in for develop a democracy in this country. it is so dot do that and my disappoint no reporter seems to talk about who is leading? if mubarak steps down now, what people or group of people would set up a kind of conference or whatever to begin to select the leadership of such a group? host: pennsylvania, pat on our republican line. caller: hi. no. i don't think mubarak is a good ally of the united states.

i don't want an ally. i mean, i don't want anyone who would hire thugs to kill or harm peaceful protesters. that's all i have to say this morning. thank you for taking my call. host: thank you for calling in. kingstown, virginia, warren, you're on the air. has president mubarak been a good u.s. ally? caller: yes. i think he has actually served our interest. but on the other hand right now he is not, by keeping the voices of people down. and i think that as americans we kind of forget. right now we are going through our recession and at 9% unemployment, maybe close to 10%. these people have about 40% unemployment, and buying food and stuff like that hags gone up dramatically. so oui in a dangerous situation. because they are going to follow whoever gives them jobs. whether it be someone who might

be terrorists or smon who might not follow the rules of capitalism. and it might be unstable for us. because if they don't sell natural gas or start jacking up the prices in the canal, it might hurt our interest. host: so warren, when you look at a potential transition period, how do you foresee it? caller: well, one, we have to ensure that the people who come into power understand the business constraints. we are getting military aide but we also need to get them economic aide. make sure they are trading partners. make sure their unemployment is down. many will say why should we give foreign aid to another country while people here are hurting? but the big picture is since we're interconnected globally, one of those countries like egypt with 25% of the arab

population of the world, if they are not playing ball, we might have instability. israel as well as the other arab nations. so that's what i have to say. host: thank you for calling in this morning, chattanooga on our democrats line has president mubarak been a good u.s. ally? caller: well, he's been a good u.s. ally but also a good corporate ally in trying to get -- everybody trying to get the cheap labor. you still got to feed people. host: all right. thank you for calling in this morning. steven. also we've been showing you the front pages of a lot of papers this morning and they are all about europe except our friends at the "chicago tribune." they have their own issues. this is north lake shore drive. you can see it looks like a parking lot.

abandon cars because of the snow storms that closed the school system for the first time in forever it seems. loudon county, virginia. daylord on our line. what do you think of egypt and president mubarak and u.s. ally? caller: i think president mubarak has been a good ally of the united states. and he's been a voice of moderation in the arab community. his -- has throughout the region has maintained calm over the decade between those who are enemies of israel and those who despise the united states and our way of life. host: thank you for calling in this morning. daniel from colorado springs, colorado. on our republican line. go ahead, daniel. caller: i think he's been a good ally for the simple fact

that he has been the only person in that area that the united states can control. i think the u.s. has allowed people like him to be in power. and i think that it's time for the people to stand up and show the world that it's not ok anymore and that we're not going to allow it, that kind of thing to happen. host: daniel, very quickly, what do you think about a transition period? what should be happening? >> i think that basically -- i think the right steps are being taken. i don't think it can be a quick get-out but at the same time it needs to happen quick, because obviously the people will not stand for him to be in power anymore. but you can't just walk away. so they are obviously -- there obviously has to be something in place.

host: and a tweet. he did our bidding. this makes him a good ally despite his many faults. and mark kelly will speak on behalf of his injured wife gabby giffords at breakfast. c-span will be covering that breakfast. washington, d.c., her by, democrat, you are on the air. caller: yes, i think we have it backwards. instead of buying one man we should buy the people. the money we give to a person like that in order to control the people, it's backwards. they all -- in america we have all these people and companies and banks we bail out. and we spread that money out amongst the people, then we would have a nice country. we are, what you call top heavy. we are more for individuals

instead of countries. host: all right. thank you for calling in this morning. another tweet we received. looks as though mubarak will follow thelessen ofty enman square, not 60's u.s. host: do you think president mubarak has been a good u.s. ally? caller: i think that's irrelevant. what i think is important is that we don't repeat what we did not 1960's in the middle east which is play an uneven hand in our approach against arab countries that we stand for demock as i. i think it's time that we play an even-handed approach. because what has happened in the 1960's was that we turned countries away that were moving towards westernization,

including iran, by being so protective of israel that we turned our backs on the arab countries. and as a result of that, we ended up with a lot of reactionary responses from the middle east, which is what we're getting now. host: that video we're showing you was live video of cairo. courtesy of the al-jazeera english network. in "the new york times" this morning facing unrest, yemen's leader says he will step down in 2013 in a reverb ration of anger rocking the region. announcing concessions on wednesday included suspending his campaign for constitutional changes that would allow him to remain president for life and saying his son will not follow him as a successor. he spoke wednesday during a

legislative session and said i present these concessions in the interest of the country. the interests of our country come before our personal interests. he offered to resume a political dialogue that collapsed last october over elections. in answer to opposition comp flaints voter records are rife with fraud, he said he would delay elections until better elections could be compiled. another semi-related story -- host: the messages started going up on facebook two weeks toog any sudanese who cared. a facebook group called youth for change said it's about time we de mandatory what's right

and take what's ours in a peaceful protest. 9s it's time weshow what we are really made of. our brothers in tunisia did it. it's about time for us. that is from the sudan. next caller, gwen on our democrat's line. has president mubarak been a good ally? >> from what i hear, he probably is, as far as keeping the unrest down. and egypt, as far as the gaza strip is going. but no one is talking about the stock markets. i heard that because of the speculation about food prices, it's causing a lot of, you know, distress in a lot of the countries, you know, because they can't -- that's why everything is just, you know, they just can't -- anyway, i'm just saying a lot of things that goes on here in the united

states. even the crash of the stock market, that had effect on all countries, so i'm sure it did and the speculation that's going on right now with food is caudsing these people to have these problems, and the young people are tired of it. host: thank you for calling in. "washington post." in egypt the tried and true tool for the opponent has been facebook. most recently it was on facebook which boasts 5 million people where youthful outrage over the killing of a prominent act visit spread leading protesters to the square and mubarak's calling to step down.

host: that's in "the washington post" this morning. by the way again we've set aside our fourth line for

egyptian americans and we'd like to hear your view on whether or not you think president mubarak has been a good u.s. ally. columbia, maryland, andy on our independent line. you're on the air. what do you think? caller: good morning. thanks for c-span. a longtime listener. first-time caller. i was going to say i think it depends on who you ask. if you ask the c.e.o.'s of the big oil companies they are going to say he's been a good friend. but family members from september 11 may say he has not been a good friend. we've traded human rights for stability. by proxy, we're responsible for the brutal oppression of human rights not just in egypt but across the middle east. this is one of the reasons we lost two buildings and 3

million americans, rest in peace, and when the dirty bomb goes off in the united states, we're really only going to have ourselves to blame. host: and this tweet. imagine if the u.s. hadn't supported the shaw of iran how different the middle east might look. you're on the air, mohammed? i'm sorry. squorge. go ahead george. caller: yes. my name is george gardner. the people of egypt, all they want is food. 80%-90% make $2-$10 a day. our own government that claims $20,000 a year is poverty, the minimum wage is $8 an hour. they legislate poverty. our own government. and the middle class, i wonderish how much longer the middle class can take it before they turn into egypt.

thank you. host: this little item in "the new york times," chavez in re-election bid. celebrating his12th anniversary in power and said he was prepared to campaign for six more years in office. he promoted his programs and agenda and apologized for errors saying much ramings to be done as he sought to lead venezuela towards socialism. and they saw a rise in crime but they have yet to select a candidate to run against him. one said his popularity had been hovering around 50% down from more than 70% in 2006. our next call comes from an egyptian american in dallas. hi mohammed. >> yes. this is mohammed. i'm originally from egypt. i wonder. there is a point i need to talk

about a video if they would say it would not come aside from the egyptian people. they will meet with iranian shea and we will lose the old people in the middle east. the sunni and the shea. and this will be a big disaster for u.s.a. i wish the u.s.a. would come with the morality and the freedom and democracy and come beside the egyptian people. host: so have you ever been a mubarak supporter? >> i'm a pro efficient heater. i lived in three years in egypt before i left. host: now you say you escaped from egypt? caller: i escaped from a dictatorship regime and the people, corruption and really bad situation. host: ok.

do you still have farges mohammed, back -- >> actually, i have a -- in cairo and a place in the mediterranean sea. and in egypt. and i go there every year, actually. i'm a professional -- and i have some vacation and i do go there twice a year. my family are there. my friends. my kids are here. but this is tuition there it's -- this disruption is -- host: mohammed were you a supporter of president sadat? caller: well, president is a dat was much with israel. he started the freedom in egypt, but unfortunately, he couldn't stay long enough to finish the movement of freedom for the egyptian people.

host: finally one more question, when we showed the map earlier. i don't know if you saw when we showed the map earlier of where the activity was happening around trear square, when you see that -- tahrir square, when you see that as someone who is familiar with egypt, this is unrest or is it pretty concentrated in the center? >> well, it is the focus of the administration. but there is administration everywhere. in alex andrea and south and north of egypt. but in general, the foreign media is -- there's the materials in there. thery veras square where a lot of times you find the media was

afraid in this area. host: right. and finally one more question, this seems to have taken an anti-more than turn in the last day or two. why do you think that is? caller: because the u.s.a. has a strong leverage on the egyptian army. i was, by the way in the egyptian army in 973 war against israeli. but we went to throw to close -- he was the egyptian people. otherwise we lose to sunni people in the middle east. they will come with the iranian shea and say we have a strong deliverance on the egyptian army. we give them a billion dollars a year. and this is really -- we have to take this point with us, the egyptian army to be in the sight of the egyptian people.

host: thank you. barry in seer accuse, new york. is president mubarak a good u.s. ally? are you with us? please go ahead. caller: it's kind of a a confusing issue. and we'd be a good ally -- in order for him to be a good ally presently, we would have to suppress all the uprising in egypt. and then on the other hand, if we turn on this ally, we oust him or help the egyptians oust him, is that going to solve the problem? because the government, now certainly, obama is in our old government and mubarak is at

his own government and i'm not sure either way if we go with mubarak that it's going to make a difrpbls. i think these people need a lot more than just ousting mubarak or to oust mubarak. host: all right. thank you for calling in this morning barry from the "wall street journal." critiquing the u.s. hitting the streets of cairo with bull horn in hand. the immediate stepping down of mubarak -- despite mohammed el baradei's anti-west red rick, what he has said in the past days are much more new once

aed. his facebook page features him shaking hands with obama and mr. obama smiling. another shows him with the secretary of state, hillary clinton. excolleagues say he shared warm relations with some israeli leaders including ariel sharon. more significantly as a young diplomat, mr. al bare dye was part of the team that negotiated the peace settlement between israel and egypt at camp david in 1978. host: you're on the air. what do you think about him being a good ally? caller: i think he's been a good president as far as money can buy and i think the oil man

will take over the canal, and the price of everything will go sky high. host: from the hill newspaper this morning, senators deny cyberbill-contained kill switch. senators lieberman, collins and harper issued a statement saying that the bill does not give the president authority shut down the internet in a reason comparable to the egyptian situation. we would never --

host: and this will be the topic on our communicators program. scott is a republican in boston. has hosni mubarak been a good ally, scott? caller: well, yes. only in that he has helped keep peace with israel. but i had a comment with mohammed, where is the u.n. in all this? why extent u.n. taking a leading role in trying to organize this transition? my question, too, is if they are surviving on $2 a day. how can they have computers and cell phones? the numbers just don't seem to work. host: thank you. this is also from the hill newspaper this morning, white house reporters comp plained

that too little access to the media was provided. the white house correspondent's association said its report erds have been left in the dark too noven recent days and prior to the president's statement the press corps had not received substantive update all day from the white house on egypt. in addition the press corps did not have an onon-camera briefing or off-camera gaggle with you about making decisions during this foreign policy -- and provided tounts try ask the president a question. the letter also took issue with the white house's decision to let only a small amount of photographers in the oval office when obama signed the new start treaty. roanoke, virginia.

barbra on our independent line. caller: good morning. mr. slim, is that right i want to mention anwar sadat. first to answer your question. this is how it works. i will be a quote-unquote good ally of anyone whoen will send me a billion dollars or more per year for 30 years. it's a shame the people in egypt are poor and mubarak is obscenely wealthy partly because of our contributions to him. we have a double standard in this country, and i hope it's going to change. for instance we say we don't believe in getting involved in regime changes. but we prop up people in -- we also say it's not right for foreign policy make torse send noun prop up our politicians

but we send money to other countries to support their politicians and so we have got assess our money whether we are on the side of people or dictators. >> and you wanted to make an opinion known but i understand that there was -- there were accusations mubarak was complicit in his assassination, and i would like some programming on that if possible. host: thank you for calling in this morning. from the politico, john mccain has a rare one-on-one with the rapidly-deteriorateing to though mccain did not want to delve into details about the meeting in his return to the capital wednesday evening, he emphasized his talk with president obama was good and

thought they would be meeting again. that's again from the politico. and this is from politico as well. elton john explains rush alliance. it's not a likely alliance yet he talks about anytime the upcoming issue of "rolling stone" magazine. john discusses being asked to play at limbaugh's wedding. he said i could not believe it. he also reisraelis rush limbaugh who speaks openly about gay marriage told john to bring his partner of 12 years to the wedding and told the singer, i am not anti-gay. this is from politico. renee, democrat from -- has hosni mubarak been a good ally to the u.s.? caller: maybe to the u.s., but

i think it's shameful the way he has treated the u.s. and -- the people in his country. and we pay all this money out to them. i'm wondering how he's so corrupt. was any of the money ever used to them people in the country there? i mean, they work for nothing. and so i can understand the protest that's going on now. and i just think he's a shame and he should go. and let the people choose who they do want to be in power there. and also like i said, it's just a shame the way he's treated the people. host: ok. renee, we got the point. thank you for calling in. this is from the associated press. the military has been rounding up journalists after they came under attack from supporters of hosni mubarak.

an a.p. reporter saw a group of foreign journalists being detained by the military on the street near tahrir square, the scene of the battles between supporters of mubarak and protesters demanding he step down. we will be looking at egypt's role and their development. that's up next. >> this weekend on american visit the old naval observe atory. the university of virginia professor on the fugitive slave law of 1850 and how it

indirectly contributed to the expansion of the underground railroad. experience american history tv on c-span 3. all weekend, every weekend. for a complete schedule online, go to c-span.org/history where you can also push the alert button and have their schedules emailed to you. >> sunday on "book tv's" in-depth. r. emmitt, the founder of the "american spectator" magazine, has written over a half dozen books including "boy clinton" and "madam hillary." his latest, book as well join us on "in depth" live on c-span 2 on "book tv." >> listen to his supreme court cases.

saturday, 2003, the court considers the fair housing act, and a discussion on racial discrimination. the complaint also should be liable because he was the officer broker. >> listen to c-span radio. >> "washington journal" continues. host: james kitfield, when did the u.s. become involved with the egyptian military? guest: we've been involved with the egyptian military for decades. really the close involvement started after the mideast peace deal in 1999 that president carter engineered, between president sadat and one from egypt. at that point a deal was struck and there was a policy that e

-- thus not an enemy of the united states. they had fought and led two wars in 1967 and 1973 against israel and made anwar sadat turn their direction much towards west. since then they've been the biggest recipient of american aid after israel. most of that aid is military. so that military-to-military exercise has been more of that. it's a very close relationship. host: quheast the culture of the egyptian military when you think about the culture of the u.s. military? guest: well, the whole point of these close military veaps to sort of graft your culture on theirs. again, trained in u.s. military

schools and you learn the relation of a military to its government and the divisions of responsibility. how you are responsible to the civilian authority. how you are not supposed to turn your guns on your own people, which is the operative issue right now. will they do that if asked to? i don't think they will. a lot of experts think they will because they have this professionalism, they are not the iranian revolution narrow guard or anything. they are a much better force. but if that's a -- we don't know what's going to happen. host: well, let's start with the civilian relationship. has it been instilled in the egyptian military? or do they have their own power force? or has it been instilled that hosni mubarak is the president

and commander and chief. we haven't graft fed -- but they are still in service of a former military general who is the president of that country. and the military has a much bigger role in that society than certainly in a democracy. so there is not that separation of powers, if you will. so it creates this tension that we are all looking at, because -- and in one hand the military is totally vested in the status quo. they benefit from this aid we have and are part of the elite in that society. they are pretty well paid but -- they are vested in the status quo. but they can see already the status quo is already unsustainable. so everybody is looking at how do we get to the next step? and the middle tarpe hasn't

decided exactly where that comes down? it comes down and seems to -- they are not doing the things the security service and police have done. at the same time yesterday they pulled back when this whole counterpro mubarak group, some of which were probably plain -clothed policemen. i'm sure they are hoping ing thisthing gets brought down. they called for -- you can see they are uneasy and not exactly sure what to do. host: does he vt power if he turned to hosni mubarak and said, you're out? guest: he has the power. he would have to know that his fellow officers were behind him on thafment but i've talked to a lot of experts on egypt.

and they think that before the egyptian army would turn its guns on its own people in mass, they would probably tell him it's time to go. host: our guest, james. writes about military matters. has for years. 6737-0002 democrats. you can send an email at journal@c-span.org or tweet us at twitter.com/cspanwj. first is up renee from tennessee. democrat. hi renee. caller: good morning peter. how are you today? host: good. caller: i wanted to comment on the in the egypt. it seems to me he is a dictator hiding behind a ei was wondering where those poor people are going to stand with all this going on and what not?

you know? with the military -- i was watching the news last night, and they were saying there was shooting and what not going on. and i'm just wondering where those folks are going to stand right now? host: all right. james kitfield? guest: she is right. this is why the demonstrators are out in the streets. they have no political voice orel no power to affect their own government. they have not for ages. they hold these fake elections that are controlled by the government and not monitored. that's how a dictator stays in power, by saying there's these elections. they zoshte no freedom of the press particularly. so it's not a democracy. it's how these autocracies, many often which we have supported in the middle east,

and i will stress they have been in terms of our interest, mubarak has been a good ally. but domestically we would never call him a democrat. host: next caller. paul? caller: good morning. as i recall mubarak basically has lived up to the requirements of the camp david treat yift. treaty. the money we gave them was part of that agreement. that treaty converted egypt from a soviet client to an american client. i believe that's true. also i was stationed if, government changed over from a military dictatorship to a democracy. and the army played a relatively positive role in that trance formation. could the same happen engine

egypt? guest: good point. because we've seen with turkey, the military is the guerin tor of that democracy. that's very much the model we would like to see in egypt. he's right. sadat with the peace treaty in 1979, and mubarak was his vice president when -- was assassinated in -- and he's lived up to that deal. so he has been a good friend. but very much so we would like to see the military there become much like the military in turkey, which is overwhelmingly muslim country with an islamic government, but also a good friend to the united states. you know, a pesky friend of late but still a good friend. member of nato. and we would like to egyptian military to play that same role. referee, don't let things get

out of hand. the fundamentals of this society. we think or hope it could go it plays the role of being the final anchor of society. we hope it's a more democratic anchor of society. host: how does it compare to the israeli military? guest: it's very large. hundreds of thousands? i can't remember the exact number of troops. it's the biggest military after israel's military in the middle east. it's not what -- we have played a sort of nuance game with them. they have f-16 planes and tanks. we always give israel a more top of the line, state of the art technology. so they are probably the next most potent army in the middle east after israel.

host: is there a resentment about not getting the top of the line? guest: i think they are sophisticated to know we are allies of israel. and we give them more than a billion dollars every year just in military aid, so i don't think resentment -- we are their ben factor, and they know that. . .

officials because the military engagement is critical. we are

. here is your chance to write a new chapter. that speaks to the pride of the egyptian of the terry. they have a lot of pride. it speaks to the fact that they can engineer a chapter of egyptian history and put a country that has been flagged with traditional influences, culturally and politically, here is a chance for you to write a new chapter, to be the egyptians of old, where you lead the middle east. they are trying to keep those communication channels open. host: brooklyn, new york, you are on. good morning. caller: good morning. [unintelligible] by saying that egypt initiated the war.

when a country has its air force destroyed, all of the fighter jets destroyed on the ground, i do not call that initiating a war. that happened in 1967 to the air force. in 1973, yes, they initiated the war. that is the only point i would like to address. host: are you from egypt originally? caller: yes, sir. i was there for 33 years. host: give us your take on what is going on over there, your view of president mubarak and of the former president. caller: my view on the former president -- i liked the steps he was taking it toward the country about open democracy, an

open economy, about a lot of stuff. when mubarak came, he was thought of as a patriot man. i don't know how things changed so dramatically from that, from being a hero in 1973 to [unintelligible] and becoming a dictator like that. i don't know. i don't know how to explain -- i need a lot of time to explain. i am with the demonstrators. host: one more question. the egyptian army -- were you in the egyptian army at one point? caller: no. host: thank you for your time this morning. guest: it is widely accepted

that egypt was leading a coalition that was going to attack israel. israel preempted that attack. i have not heard it disputed they were putting up to a war with israel. israel did a pre-emptive strike. it is kind of the excepted history. i take his point. he was a hero in the middle east. he did reoriented egypt toward peace in the middle east. 1973 was a very near thing for israel. they require the united states to deplete -- to ensure the survival of israel. sadat was a hero of his day.

mubarak has been a good ally of the united states. he has gotten old and very resistant to the idea of political liberalization and reform in the middle east. and what we are seeing now in this age of social media where people can see how other people live, and people can connect with each other, and their aspirations can be collectively voiced, he did not change with the times. that is basically the problem with him. host: bill tweets in -- is that correct? guest: yes, i think so. host: moving onto lexington park, md., rich is on our

republican line. caller: i am a retired navy officer. i am responsible for some of the military sales to egypt. when people talk about egyptian civilians, [unintelligible] israel gets about $1.6 billion. and they are trying to spend that money with us. israel has a waiver to spend $600 million of that in israel. also, i traveled in egypt extensively when i was in the navy. there is a corruption. i don't think anyone can deny that. mubarak has been a good ally. i think the military will step

in, and i do not think you are going to have to worry about so much of the riots and catamaran- type shift in power. guest: when our foreign military sales, we give countries like iraq or egypt $1 billion for military aid. we expect them to buy american military products, which they do. that is a double-edge sword. everyone in the middle east understands this relationship. it is one of the reasons why we are so unpopular in the middle east because they see us propping up these autocrats who crush dissent with american rhetoric. it is a double edged sword. israel has more of a domestic defense industry, but they also

have the american tanks, planes, missiles systems, and that is the way the game is played. host: two things. early on in this conflict, there were talks about the tear gas canisters, saying made in the usa. have you seen them? guest: i have seen reports of them. host: when you see the tanks on the street, are those american- made tanks? guest: yes. wednesday -- when the aircraft buzzed the square, those were american-made fighter jets. host: has the israeli military gone on alert during this crisis? guest: of course. and when you send the military into the streets of your capital, that is high alert. there are definitely on high

alert. that was not something -- they are 300,000-member security force separate from the military. they are all about handling these internal rights. they got overwhelmed. when the military was called into the streets, that is a high alert crisis mode for the military. they understand -- they do not like doing that. it is not something the egyptian military likes to do to get their hands dirty. host: i was asking about the israeli military. have they gone on alert? guest: no, i do not think the israeli military is on high alert. they are not nervous and the problem is going to come from egypt. they are nervous about the southern anchor is falling

apart. from the israeli point of view, it cannot be better. what they had was pretty perfect for them. the had a peace treaty, an ally on their southern border. egypt has been a good friend of israel. they are not chummy, but egypt has kept that peace deal. they do not know what is coming next. they worry about taking on revolution in iran. we had some concerns about that, too. it is a possibility that you cannot turn your head against. host: do you know that american navy ships docked in egypt? guest: sure, we passed the suez canal regularly. we regularly at dock in egypt.

they have been a logistical hub during the iraq war. egypt has been a close military ally and has lent us a lot of aid. " brooklyn, nelson is a democrat. .ou are on parade caller: m caller: what would you do if you were in president mubarak's situation? i believe he is the president of a country. if he is a president of the country and there are demonstrations, he needs to bring some kind of stability and peace, using whatever enforcement group that he has to use. another question is why are the news reporters -- none of them

are taking provisions of the current government? the moment the demonstrations began, all the news reporters jumped on the side of the demonstrators. the demonstrators are not the majority of the people, and they did not the lack mubarak. mubarak was elected by the majority of the people. host: any response for the caller? guest: we live in a society where we can operate -- we have a free press. you do not have that in egypt. yes, there is an inclination to say these people do not have fair elections, free press, the right to petition their government for their grievances.

these are things that are closely held by most americans. when we see people petitioning to those same rights that we enjoy and take for granted, i think there is an inclination to expect what is happening in egypt. " what i do? president mubarak is 82 years old. maybe it is time to think about passing along the power and doing it in a way, not to your son, but in a way that expresses some of the feelings of the people that you government. he was not popular with the bush administration because he pointed out the uncomfortable truth that there were no mass weapons of destruction in iraq. i think in general he is thought of as a nobel laureate, in

moderate figure. i think he has a lot of respect. leaving it in a moderate, deliberate fashion. what we do not want is chaos, violence, those things in the middle east tending to get hijacked in ways that come back to bite you. i think mohammed elbaradei is our friend. he lives in vienna. it is unclear whether he will have the support of the people in the street. host: our producer has found a tear-gas canister with the words "made in the usa." mobile, alabama, you are on. please go ahead.

caller: i an not the biggest politician in the world. what i think is the most of these right now in this situation is the biggest reason for all of these uprisings and overt in egypt is because of the bigger government and the dictatorship that mubarak has been leading. it is kind of something that you have to be fearful of -- i don't know. it is kind of hard to describe. we have to learn what is going on in egypt to make sure it does not happen with us. it is easy to get a bigger government. you have to be scared from what is going on in egypt because what happens if we get a bigger government and the use rise up the same? host: we got the point. thank you. guest: we have elections, and elections matter in this country. in the last five years, i have

seen three demonstrations in washington with more than 1 million people. one with obama's election, one with glenn beck, and the other with jon stewart. this is how democracies let off steam. you can petition your government, have an election, and you can have a regime change is peacefully in democracies. the problem in the middle east, you do not get regime changes peacefully. that is why this is an extraordinary event. host: ellen tweets in -- guest: short term, i think that is what concerns us. in the short term, this is probably not going to end in a way that causes us headaches. if the military crackdown and

you have an extension of the status quo, it will be and must less legitimate status quo. if the protests are successful and someone gets elected in september, expressing the voice they did not like the invasion of iraq. yes, in the short term it will be more anti-american government probably coming from egypt. it is one of the -- it is why the obama administration does not want to get too far out ahead of this thing. it could have repercussions that are uncomfortable for you. " our building washers are behind us. you might see that as they come down the side of the building. an egyptian american in lancaster, pa., good morning. caller: i would like to ask those people who called and say mubarak is a good ally to the

american states. i like him. with a have him as the president of the united states? -- would today have him as the president of the united states? where they have him as a president? we are supporting him and calling him a good ally. would you really have him run the united states like he runs egypt? guest: absolutely, this double standard -- if you want to know why america is on popular in the middle east, it is this double standard. we deny the very same things to their people. we have done it for decades and for strategic reasons starting in the cold war, but we kept doing it.

this, i think, for all the reasons i said, it could be an uncomfortable position for us, but at least our values and our foreign policy will be aligned. that could be a good thing. host: madison, wisconsin, an email is coming in -- guest: the element that murdered the former president were extremists in the military. i think that has been weeded out of the egyptian military. i do not think they have a strong islamic vent like others in the region. i think this is a more

professional unit. a do not see the military being a threat from the islamic -- that is more of a threat from the muslim brotherhood. it is significant, organized. that will be the concern from whenever government that comes out. and islamic voice is something i think we would have to live with because it is an islamic country. host: from kansas, -- guest: it is a good question. all the questions are good this morning. the iranian revolution is the cautionary tale that is making america a very cautious. you can see the obama

administration does not get out front to say they wanted mubarak to lead. it went terribly wrong in the 1970's and iran. for 30 years, they have worked strenuously against our interests and the interest of democracy in that region. so we are cognizant of that, but i do not believe -- no one i have talked to believe egypt is a conservative society that wants an islamic government that bans alcohol and makes women go behind the veil. that is not egypt. i do not think that is in the cards. it is not like you can ignore the possibility host: if mubarak steps down, will he be allowed to stay in egypt? guest: i do not know. i would think that he would be allowed to stay in egypt. there is a significant segment of that society that has a lot

of respect for him. he has ruled three decades of relative stability. again, i think his time is up. he has not done anything yet that would so inflame his own populist, that he could not live up the remaining years of his life and his own country. if the military turned their guns against the protesters like in iran 2009, all bets are off. host: va., on our democrats aligned. -- virginia, on our democrats' line. caller: i would like to ask a question regarding the egyptians and the israeli situation. we are all in favor of the egyptian people having their freedom. we are certainly behind them. across the way is israel and

palestinians. why do we not stand as strong for them as we are for israel? i will take my answer off the air. guest: i think she raises the issue about the palestinians and why we are not standing behind them. truth be told, we have been working through democratic regimes trying to enhance the peace process. this will stall if further. the peace process is off the table for a while because when israel feels insecure, they will not make a compromise for a peace deal. i would argue -- i covered a closely during the bush administration and now the obama administration have all done whatever they could to prevent the peace process. you cannot wanted more than the two parties involved. we have never found the correct

alignment of the balance of power and interest to get the palestinians and the israelis to agree with that. this does not help the peace process. the palestinians are not going to be helped because it was already stalled. israel will not make any compromises if it thinks its southern border is now suddenly less secure than it was before. they think that now because mubarak -- he was solid. whatever is happening in egypt now is not solid from the viewpoint of the israelis. host: looking proper, yemen, syria, jordan. we have military involvement with a couple of those countries, right? how extensive is our military involvement with yemen and jordan specifically? guest: we are training palestinian police forces in

jordan with jordanian and u.s. trainers. jordan is probably our next closest ally. in yemen, we have some counter- terrorism activity going on there where there is the al- qaeda in the peninsula is headquartered. they were behind the christmas day bomb plot. they are a big problem, so we have some counter-terrorism activities going on there. if you are a poor middle east country led by an autocrat who has been in power for a long time, the crown is sitting very uneasily on your head right now. he would be a benevolent monarch, but he felt nervous enough to change his whole government to try to get ahead of this thing. this fire is continuing to rage. it started with social media.

that spread to out -- everybody in the middle east, al jazeera is seeing what is happening. egypt might not be the last chapter. egypt is an extremely influential country in that region. if this leads to a regime change in egypt, i do not think it will stop there. host: could you foresee if king abdullah were in real trouble the u.s. military getting involved? guest: no, i do not see that. to get to that point, -- if the last 10 years taught us anything in iraq, any more heavy lifting of getting our military on the ground involved in muslim countries is pretty much a non- starter. it has been heavy, heavy lifting. our military is exhausted. our country's finances are exhausted.

so, no, i do not see that. i do not see king abdullah getting in the kind of trouble. i cannot imagine that man leading a crackdown that would require that. he is a benevolent monarch. i think he would find an accommodation first. host: would be bad for u.s. military and geopolitical policy if president of the yemen went down? guest: no, he has been cooperative. he has insurgency in the south. he is not a particularly close friend. we have some mutual interests against islamic extremists, but no, i do not think we have a huge equity involved in his continued reign of power. host: good morning. caller: my question is about

mohammed elbaradei. does he have a strong relationship with the muslim brotherhood? what was his relationship with iran? it really surprise me that he came back because he has been gone from each of for so long. it kind of worries me. aest: i don't think he has relationship with the muslim brotherhood. he is a cosmopolitan guy who lived in the u.s. for the past decade. i think he had a bad rap with iran. with iran, we pushed him to say i look at i ran's program. he was certainly cautious, but i

think most people in the community thought he did a pretty good job in a tough role during that period. he is an enemy of the west. he is a noble laureate. i think he would be the moderate, the best case scenario for us. host: by the way, from congressional research service, these facts --

. . host: tied it is an egyptian american in albuquerque. you are on the air with james kitfield. caller: when of the questions keep coming up. the u.s. is not viewed as honest, especially when it comes to the palestinian issue. the comprehensive issue is jobs, and the corruption. there are so many groups. this could become another iraq. some egyptian neighbors view egypt just like mexico -- just

like the u.s. views mexico -- pour, less population, no respect for the borders. with regard to with 40, -- to authority, i would say the -- that is my thought basically. this could go on. i have been here since the 1970's. a lot of this so-called aid does not go to the military. it goes to building mansions for mr. mubarak. host: do you think is mr. mubarak steps down or manages to stay on through september, that he should be able to stay in egypt? caller: he should actually

resign and stay in the country. leaving the country would make more chaos. i believe he has done enough damage said he should have been gone a long time ago. now, what disturbs me is the ones causing the trouble, his thugs. the let's not paint protesters as peaceful. they destroyed businesses. that really disturbs me. i am angry about that. host: thank you. james kitfield? guest: he raises some good points. we are worried that this unrest, this instability is prolonged. in russell -- and revolutions like this, and we have not seen one since 1979 in iran, are

unpredictable. they can turn violent. they can be hijacked by extremists. he is a transformational event that could go in any number of directions, some of which are very negative. if i take his point. if it is in our interest -- it is in our interest. that is why president obama has been saying let's have an election in september, trying to put some order and stability into a process that leads to change, rather than continued instability on the street that could lead to violence. host: what did you think of his boutros boutros-ghali suggestion? guest: i have not heard that. he would be another figure. i have not seen his name mentioned at all. i do not think he has a lot of cachet in the street in cairo.

host: john, in the penn line in connecticut. caller: good morning. i think mr. mubarak should stay in until such time as we know who the other political parties are. i mean, i have no idea who they are. i know there is the muslim brotherhood. in the -- there is an old adage that says better the devil you know, because if there is no stability in egypt and the muslim brotherhood comes to the front, then, are we going to have a society in egypt like we have in iran, and what the hell is going to happen to our oil? i am sure we are worried about that. guest: it is the bargain we have cut in the middle east for 30 years. if in some ways, it has served

our strategic interest, but it does not serve the interest of the people in the middle east. as long as that was serving our interest, if we did not break the bargain. the bargain is being -- is being broken on the streets of cairo. if they break that bargain, they want to get rid of their devils, this could be hard for america bleeding where we do as a country to side with people who are killing four demonstrators in the street who are arguing for the rights we take for granted. i take his point. that is why we want an orderly transition. we have some insight into how it is going to go. we have some more understanding during an orderly process of who is rising in the opposition. there is a lot of uncertainty. i take that. this is going to lead to more headaches for the united states in the short term. i still maintain that this bevel's bargained we have cut in the middle east has made that

the most stagnant region in the world. it is the only region in the world, unlike eastern europe or asia, where you saw all of this democratic blossom in. it has been stagnated in that region. the people have suffered. their economies are stagnant. the political system is stagnant. their influence is almost nill on the world stage. he is uncomfortable. it could go in-as well as positive directions. if the status quo was probably unsustainable. host: as always, james kitfield, thank you for being here. a little less than an hour to go. in 45 minutes we will look at the issue of states and bankruptcy. coming up next, a discussion on bedbugs. first, this news update from c- span radio. >> here are some of the

headlines. even though they lost the vote, senate republicans say that defeat of their attempt to repeal the democrats' health care law will turn out to be a victory for 2012. the repeal fell yesterday. republicans say this puts the democrats on the record in favor of the law, which republicans will try to discredit over the next two years in the lead up to the congressional and presidential elections. a program that subsidizes air service to small airports, often in remote communities, is shaping up as an early test for conservative zeal for shrinking the federal government. arizona republican senator john mccain has proposed an amendment to an aviation bill that would eliminate the two hundred million dollar program that pays airlines to provide service to about 150 remote communities. the senate continues work on that bill when it comes in at

9:30. racial minorities accounted for about 85% of the nation's population growth over the last decade, and that is one of the largest shares ever, with hispanics accounted for much of the game in much of the states, picking up new house seats. preliminary estimates also suggest that the number of multi-racial -- of of racial -- multi-racial americans jumped. finally, wikileaks has been nominated for a nobel peace prize, citing the contribution to democracy and freedom of speech worldwide. those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> this weekend, on booktv, after words with michael reagan. also this weekend, ron rating,

and his account of his father's life. find a complete schedule at booktv.org and get our schedules in mailed to you. >> there is no other way forward. we have to learn how to work together, as californians first, and as members of the political party second. >> today, step-by-step, we are putting ourselves on a better, more sustainable path path, and pushing ahead on a road to growth. >> find state of the state addresses online, at the c-span2 library. -- c-span library. "washington journal" continues. host: on your screen is weighing white.

i want to start with some bedbugs statistics. in this segment, we will be looking at bedbugs and the fire response. according to the national pest management association, -- host: how is it that bad bugs have become in the news and in our country again over the last couple of years?

guest: they had disappeared. there are number of reasons. they have come back in such great numbers. as those statistics indicate, if they effect one of the five, it really becomes a problem for all of us to where some of us live, where we were, where we go for entertainment. they are really in our society. host: why did they disappear, and why are they back? guest: there was a chemical product largely giving credit for the disappearance. that was ddt. that was used and pretty much given credit for the disappearance. bed bugs became resistant to ddt and other products were used after that. we were able to pretty much suppressed that at least in these areas of our society. all of the sudden, with

increased international travel, with changes in the past management industry's practices regarding test management, with returning troops from overseas in the 1990's, and certainly this past decade, they have come back with a vengeance. host: should we be concerned about this? guest: yes, we should be concerned. when messages it is not the end of the world. if you get bad bugs, they can be gotten rid of. they do not appear to transmit diseases. the fact that they really can cause great economic and mental anguish for folks means we need to be concerned about it. host: we will put the numbers on the screen if you want to participate in the conversation about bedbugs and the federal response. there is a bedbug summit going on in washington.

what is it about? guest: the summit, which took place over the past two days, was a summit that brought a number of different government agencies to gather -- seven of them, including the epa, cdc, nih, the department of defense, even to. the idea was to bring a work group together that was to develop a national strategy to battle bedbugs. if there was a summit two years ago. this summit was part of the result of that previous summit. the federal bedbug work group was the sponsoring group for the summit that took place the last to do days. host: what results or conclusions did you all come to? guest: a lot of different conclusions. some were not so startling, as

there is a lot we do not know about bedbugs. there has been a dearth of research -- research for all of those years that they were not here. the research has only started up in the past six or seven years. there is not much funding for research because bedbugs are not considered a disease- transmitter. they are not a public health past, even though there has been a statement by cdc and epa, that says there are significant, there has not been much research. host: we are joined by congressman gene k. butterfield, a democrat from north carolina who has sponsored a bill called do not let the bedbugs bite. why have you introduced it?

guest: good morning. we have to get serious about this issue. it is indeed a public health issue that the congress has a role to play. i know it is a humorous conversation to some people, but once you get beyond the humor, it is very serious. bedbugs are being found now in the bedrooms, austin -- office buildings, university classrooms, and even clothing stores. congress has begun to address this issue. i introduced a billion the previous congress that did not make it to the finish line. we are going to reintroduce the bill in this congress, hopefully get as many sponsors as we can, and try to address the problem. we have to make the public more aware of the issue. we have to ask the states if they would conduct more inspections, particularly of

hotel rooms as the american people travel more, and especially travel abroad. we are seeing high incidence of bedbugs. i join you this morning to let you know that the congress is taking this issue very seriously, and we're going to try to make it happen in this congress. host: what exactly does the do not let the bedbugs bite at do? guest: money is a small portion. hopefully, it will not add to the federal deficit. i am not interested in adding to the federal deficit. first of all, it will expand research. your caller just a moment ago mentioned that we need to do more research. if we need to find more chemicals that will deal with this. we had a chemical 30 years ago that would deal with bedbugs. that chemical was outlawed by the epa, so we do not have the

most effective weapon to use. many of our pesticide professionals are active in trying to help consumers with this problem the first thing we have to do is expand the research. we need to find out more about this pandemic. we need to speak to industries and companies, and let them know how it effects not only their facility, but the people who work there. we have to work with the industry. we have to work with the pest management industry to make sure that they have the tools to treat the infestation. host: how did you get interested in this issue? guest: i had two or three constituents who told me informally that they stayed in hotels that it was a bad morning when they woke up. because of that, my staff started looking into, and found

out we were not unique in north carolina to our other states were reported the same problem. that is when i introduced the bill. we had a meeting in washington where a lot of the stakeholders came together. we had a good, robust conversation. that meeting had at least two hundred people. we have suggestions on how to legislatively deal with this and we have begun the process. host: congressman g.k butterf ield. guest: i do not to let the title of the legislation. it is a very serious conversation. hi, a bed of legislation. host: thank you, sir. on our set is wayne white, an

entomologist with american test, -- pest company. are you some way with this legislation and do you think it is the right thing to do? guest: definitely, we and the industry do -- we are very much in favor of this kind of legislation. funding is a big part of it. there was a part of it originally that required that the cdc investigate the public health significance of this and report to congress. that is maybe an important part of the legislation. who knows what form the legislation will take, but something along those lines we would begin support of. host: let's take some calls. norman, amherst, mass., you are

on with wayne white. caller: thank you for taking my call. i wanted to speak about the subject in general. i think the poor funding, of course, has to do with the fact that poor people are effected by this issue more than richer people. it is really troubling to hear the congressman and others talking about ddt having been so good because it nearly wiped out the eagles of the united states. it seems to me that such a bill -- i would like to see if it is padding the money for the chemical industry. it was written 45 years ago that bedbugs would proliferate, and

diseases, and huge storms with global warming. here we are, with 10 years of bedbugs all over the world and 10 years of the worst warming we have had. i think it is obvious where it has come from. guest: and intelligent caller for sure. we need to make the distinction that while bedbugs are in a disproportionately high number of poor, public housing locations -- people that can least afford to solve the problem, they do not discriminate. they can be in the very finest of hotels. they can be in low-ends of the hospitality industry. they do not discriminate. i think the chemical industry is very interested in getting great solutions to this problem, and they are not only chemical in nature. there will be a lot of different

products, educational process east that would come along if we were to find a solution to this problem. host: can they survive through the winter? guest: they do not survive well in sub-freezing temperatures. it may take several days for them to die at those temperatures depending on how well insulated they are. if a more effective temperature extreme is heat. at 123 degrees, they died almost instantly. host: how'd you get them to 123 degrees without burning down your house? guest: said there are companies that can go into a structure and heat the ambient air in that structure, and circulate the air over time. bedbugs cannot survive that.

host: would someone having them in their house had to remove everything? guest: what of the great things is you do not have to do that much preparation. it is an extensive and expensive process. it takes much of a day to do a one bedroom or two bedroom unit. and the cost is considerable. host: what is the cost? it could be $1,200, or $1,400. host: is there an infestation in federal buildings here? guest: there absolutely is. there are those we know about, and others we do not. host: where else besides mattresses do they live? guest: they live anywhere where people are. office buildings are a good example. we are finding them in office chairs. we are finding that they have the ability were the human host, and that is the only food, human blood, where that host will

become a and spend the most time. host: gregory, palms, california. caller: good morning, dr. white. and saying isck, ridiculous to where they want to do extra research. they already know that they come from poor people. has there been any investigation on how we could spray illegal immigrants? h., we are going to move on. do not even bother calling with that crap. the next call comes from robert, in camden, new jersey. caller: thank you for letting me speak my mind. the problem that we are having with the influx of the bedbugs

is attributed to other countries that cannot control it, and when those people travel over here, we are getting a lot of it because of that. guest: there are a lot of cultural differences. there are countries where the folks are not bothered by them. they have bigger problems on their hands than bedbugs. we think international travel, and increasing affordable international travel, has contributed to the reemergence of bedbugs in our country. certainly, it is -- there were reservoirs of bedbugs all of these years that we did not have them the in any great numbers in our country, but there were reservoirs around the world. somehow, they have been transported into our country, and have started what now becomes quite the epidemic.

host: wayne white we are identifying it as an entomologist. we have referred to as a doctor. is an entomologist a doctor? >> i am not a doctor white. i have a graduate visit -- degree from the university of maryland. i study insects. for the first 20 years of my 30- year career we never saw bedbugs. if anyone saw a dead bug to us, we would call people around and say look at this. now, we see them every day. we see hundreds and thousands of bedbugs across our service area. host: is there evidence? guest: there are a number of different ways to determine we have bedbugs. one is bites. some people react, some people

do not. you can have a husband and a white sitting in bed, and what is getting bits and, and another is not. if there are manifestations that could occur with the biting of bedbugs. you can see the bedbugs. you can take a look at them. they are relatively easily seen at least in their more advanced stages. they leave behind a black caller: spots anywhere they hide -- fecal spots anywhere they hide. they're hard to see. the combination of the bugs, the shed skin, the fecal spots and the manifestations of people are some of the main ways we determined there is a problem. host: the next call is from patrick in texas.

caller: first of all, i had bedbugs for a year. lord only knows where i picked them up. i traveled a lot. i suspect that is where i got them. i do not know what your policy is about products, but i fought with them, and found a product based on cedar oil, and was able to get rid of them in one day. it cost about $100. i know there are solutions out there that worked. host: what did you do with the cedar oil? caller: is made here, in texas. it is a spray. i went to the place that makes it, and talked to them for a couple of hours. if they sold me a gallon of this stuff. i went home, and as for my bedroom apart, and my chair where they were. i sprayed my car, my clothes, and my office.

in other words, all in one day to attack the problem wherever they were. if i did have them in my office. i think they ride on new high -- in your clothes. as a result, i got rid of them in one application, one day, down, over with. . .

and it was persistens and vigilance and lots of effort that were able to keep them in the day. host: you are on the air. caller: thank you for taking my call. i'm glad you got mr. white on. i'm in the service industry. and we fight bedbugs all the time. we started out cleaning the carpet and reupholsterying furniture and dry cleaning and we run into bedbugs all the time, but explain to me. in this industry people are in denial from bedbugs. we see them when we do the upholstery and we been killing them and fighting them with extreme heat. we have a truck community puts out 200-degree heat when we do the carpet and upholsteries. but we finding a lot of bedbugs

in the industry. we trying to put in an extra charge and fight the bedbugs and kill them on the mattresses and on the chairs, but people are just, like, i don't have that. but can you speak about people in this industry. how do we invade to the people that they have bedbugs? guest: well, that's a good point. t stick may associated with having bedbugs. there are people that don't know they have bedbugs, and they need to be.

and there are people that have bedbugs and know it but don't want anybody else to know about it. and sometimes that's the most difficult issue of all. for people in the service industry, there's no doubt you will see bedbugs and encounterthem time and time again, and we need, as a nation, to educate people about bedbugs so people not only know what they are and that they have them, but also that they know what steps to take. host: do we have summits on rats or mosquitos or federal responses to other pests? >> we do. and in large they are well-funded. mosquitos, for example, which still kill hundreds of thousands of people in subsahara, africa. mosquitos as a disease factor have always been an issue. bedbugs do not fall into that same category. but they are affecting

thousands of focus -- of folks here in our own country. host: donna wants to know via twitter, what about lysol? guest: well, donna, one thing we've come to understand in wage ing thiswar, there are a lot of products that will work. part of the difficulty is finding thing a investigations of bedbugs that hide in screw holes within furniture, behind baseboards, at the edge of carpets. in equipment. in books. all those places, and you simply can't spray all those areas with lysol. host: james says the obvious solution is to bring back d.d.t. guest: many of the bedbugs, the laboratory strains are rant to -- strains are rant to d.d.t.

so d.d.t. would not be the answer. host: mary, south carolina, you're on the air. caller: good morning. i'm a child that was affected when i was at home with my parents many years ago. i'm 65 now. and we had bedbugs all in our mattress and furniture. so at that time what my mom did, what your guest said, which is so true is heat. she would boil pots of water and pour on everything, which was a bad way of doing it, but the modern way to do it now if you get bedbugs is you know we have hand steamers that we clean our house with. and that temperature gets very hot. so i have a hand held one and one for my floors. what i do once a week, spray my bed, and i don't have bedbugs. but i do it for the reason to not to get them.

and that heat that, steam that comes is out very, very hot. and that's the easiest way for anybody that has them to spray with that hot, hot steam. host: all right. thank you, mary. wayne white? guest: mary is doing what we talk about which is you really have to be persistent. you have to go through the effort. there's no silver bullet or anything that you can do easily. they are maddeningly difficult for even the trained frolves eliminate. so it's efforts like that. the temperatures, the steamers. that's a big part of every pest management's arsenal against them. also freezing temperatures with the right system. but it takes that kind of effort, and we can't just assume that somebody's going to find the solution for us, and they are all going to go away.

host: wayne wright, even though you have a hand in bug pest control, is this an issue for the federal government to worry about? >> well? host: really? guest: well, someone -- we talk a lot about the government and what their role should be, and sometimes we think the government has too big a role. but with the bedbug issue there's really no one to take up the war if it's not the federal government. communities can band together and accomplish a lot. tenant organizations can. but because bedbugs are showing up in all the places now where people are, the federal government has identified the only way to really combat the problem is to develop a national strategy. that's where the organizations of the federal beds bedbug work group. >> clorox will get rid of them

and make your sheets look 1960's tie dye. >> good morning to both of you. first, i want to commend you for not taking that stuff from that customer. i never had bedbugs, but i'm really interested on thousand prevent them. i heard the warning signs like droppings and marks on your epidermis. the caller suggestions are good. but are there any insects that can prey on them? i know lady bugs eat bugs. guest: certainly researchers are working on bye logical things even bacterium that live

within the guts of bedbugs and again, i can't stress enough that there's not much money for that type of research. but that's very important you mentioned about preepings. prevention and early detection are really two of the most important keys to this whole process. prevention has a lot to do with not bringing bedbugs home if you don't have them. if you're staying in hotel rooms, knowing how to up a a hotel room and run the least risk of bringing bedbugs home. it has to do with going to the theater and knowing to maybe keep your personal belongings in your lap as opposed to the in the chair next to you. so there are a number of resources on the web about how to best prevent bedbugs. but prevention and detection are really two of the early keys. host: if you have this

information and there's an american pest management system isn't there enough information out there without the government stepping in? guest: well, it's the lead organization for pest management professionals in this country. and there are 7,000 international members. 5500 or so in this country. and they have developed a series of best management practices for bedbug control. the best management being trying to contain best methods for proper control and trying to educate the public about what to look for with a professional pest management professional. it's really difficult as we said to solve a problem yourself. it usually takes a trained professional to do that. >> entomologist from harvard has often said if you see apts

in your kitchen, he said watch them. are bedbugs different or more dangerous than pants? >> i don't know about dangerous. but they are a creature unlike any one we've battled in the last 30 years that i've been in this business. and the bedbugs we have today are not our father's bedbugs. they have knew tated. they are yet? ic changes that provide rance against the pesticides that would have killed them in the 30's and 40 years. host: next call from clums, ohio, david, independent line. hi. caller: i'm here from clums. and you -- columbia and you just touched on something important. you talked about this resistant strain. i've done a lot of work on this. i have a son down there at school.

in cincinnati, ohio. and there's a number of products we've been talking about here in the ohio area. trying to get the e.p.a. to move a little bit on that. we also have resistant strain breakers. there was one i called transport by f.m.c. and was wondering if you'd heard of these products and i'll hang up and take your answer offline. >> ok. i've heard of all those products. certainly. in ohio there was a movement to allow the use of pro poxer, which seems to be a very effective pesticide against bedbugs. that was denied after much consideration by the e.p.a. there are other products currently being tested. the studies are something that needs to be done. we need to figure out which products work? which product works well in

which available to pest management professionals and the general public. that was one of the products. by and large we heard a clearing house of information is something that's very important. host: does american pest management association test the effectiveness of natural remedies such as cedar oil or only chemical pesticides? >> well, we do a lot of product testing. we tend to gravitate towards those products that have science behind them, the university researchers are our best source and we have also found that heat the probably the most effective tool in combination with some pesticides that we have at the moment. so we have over the years tried to learn a lot from trial and

error. host: next call comes from ohio. doug, hi. caller: hi. peter? host: yes. caller: hey, you're my favorite on the show. all your cast, everybody's great. greta's great. thank you for c-span. watching you in the time difference is very weird. i'm glad i don't have my father's bedbugs. and at this strain of this this is my first time through. thank you. personally, i think if anybody ever heard me play my guitar in a room alone. that would clean any bedbugs out immediately or any other type of vermen but secondly, i've actually had bedbugs in the past. i don't have a problem now.

and i understand what mr. wayne is saying about the heat thing. and other people's calling in saying that they have other remedies. and i also remember that you said is this important, peter, that you mention that? and it is important. it's not at this government should get involved so much to speak. but that it is news and it involves people's lives. and that's why i say thank god for c-span. host: all right. doug, you know what? thank you very much for calling in. welcome. i hope we hear from you again. next call from comes from palm beach, florida. anne, hi. caller: hi. good morning. am i on? host: you are. caller: shirley anne. good morning. i have two questions and they are a little bit separate. one i want to ask the gentleman did he ever hear of chemical

sensitivity? some people are sensitive to chemicals around -- did he ever hear of that syndrome? host: and what's your second question, shirley anne? caller: yes. my second question would be are there any pesticides, green-type pesticides? because i have a problem e -- i have to cover my head and then come home and change or air my clothes out because these chemical the -- i can't enter many environments, because so many rp environments use all these chemicals. host: all right. 14ir8y anne we got the point. wayne stpwhrithe guest: well, the perfect answer for shirley anne and bedbug treatment is heat. there do not have to be any

chemicals involved. certainly there is chemical sensitivity among individuals. that's something we're all very concerned about. the e.p.a. tasked with registering the products and checking efficacy studies and reports is very concerned about that as well. that's one of the reasons we no longer have products available to us that we once had and that were effective. the other point of her question i think had to do with some of the natural products. there's a category of products 25-v under e.p.a. registration that are exempt far, therefore, no efficacy is products he's an entomologist and director of technology for a company called american pest. does the white house have

bedbugs? guest: well, i'm not at liberty to tell you exactly where bedbugs are. but i guarantee you within a very few blocks of the white house in some of the federal office buildings there, there are bedbugs. host: does the capital have bedbugs? guest: i think the answer would be the same. wherever people go, bedbugs are traveling. host: thank you for spending a little time with us, talking at or about bedbug summit. we're going to be looking at states and the issue of bankruptcy after this fravet c-span >> the number of people applying for unemployment benefits plunged last week following a week where bad weather contributed to a spike in applications. the number of people seeking benefits dropped from 45,000 to a seasonably adjusted in a week

ending january 29. applications have to fall consistently below 375,000 to signal a likely decline in the unemployment rate. labor department also says this morning at this workforce was more efficient last year. with productivity arising at the fastest pace in eight years. while labor costs fell for a second straight year. and that hasn't happened in nearly five decades. but a ever economists also approve -- hiring this year will help boost incomes. the president is promoting energy efficiency as a jobs creating priority today. he'll be traveling to pennsylvania, home of penn state university. that school's labs are searching for ways to make energy buildings more

efficient. and a report on the 2009 fort hood texas shootings is sharply if about the alleged shooter's extreme exetch and said the pentagon failed to make necessary changes to identify violent islamic behavior as a danger. now that report will be officially released later today by the chairman and ranking republican on the senate homeland security and governmental affairs on c-span radio. >> this weekend on c-span 2, afterwards on michael reagan next week marks the 100th anniversary of ronald reagan's birth. also ron reagan and his account of his father's life and ron lambert on the history and purpose of futures market. find it on "book tv."org.

live with r. emmitt -- sign up for our "book tv" alert. >> there's no other way forward. in this crisis we simply have to learn to work together. ads californians first, members of a political party second. >> today, step-by-step, we are putting ourselves on a better, more sustainable path, and pushing ahead on the road to growth. >> find and -- all online at the c-span video library sumples "washington journal" continues. host: and now joining us from philadelphia is david skeel. he is an attorney and recently in the weekly standard magazine, he wrote a piece on states and bankruptcy. and he gives the ok in his view

for states to declare bankruptty. -- bankruptcy. david skeel, why do you think that's a good option for some facing big definites? we ought to have a bankruptcy option. currently states where not permitted to file for bankruptcy. there is no state bankruptcy law. so my main argument is the re-we really need to have one. the same way we need a bankruptcy option in case states get in so far over their heads that they need an all terntive way to resolve their problems. host: why no state bankruptcy law up until the present? guest: well, i think a couple of reasons.

one is that in recent decades, we'd never stayed in one area. and we seriously needed to consider it. >> the other thing is 100 or 75 years ago, there would have been serious constitutional concerns about whether uct is enact. i think those two factors are the main factors. host: what kind of bankruptcy law could be formed to help states? guest: well, the template for a state bankruptcy law, i think ought to be the laws that we already have for cities and other municipalitieses. we have part of it known as chapter nine, which really provides a road map for how we might steal with a soverpblg end i zove -- host: in your article you write the main objection for bankruptcy for states is it

would interfere with state sovereignty. how so? guest: well, i think the fear a lot of people have is if you had a state bankruptcy law, creditors would come along or might and blow a state into bankruptcy against its will, which seems completely inconsistent with state, decision-making authority or sovereignty that i imagined would not be constitutional it's quite clear from our experience with municipal bankrupt circus that any would have to leave o' -- the state would have to be the one to make the decision whether or not to invoke it. >> how sit the cities in the past have been able is to declare bankruptcy and not states?

host: guest: the last time we were seriously considering these types of issues, which was during the great depression, there were dozens and dozens of cities on the brink of -- object financial brink. so i think it was a question of you are intelligence as i. there was a question. we had all these cities and other municipalities and they just didn't have any way to resolve their financial struggle. so congress put a law in place for cities. states were also obviously in trouble in the 1930's but it wasn't quite as dire as it was with city. host: up i'm not sure exactly what the number is. chapter nine in the city bankruptcy chapter is used relatively infrequently. so we don't have hundreds and hundreds of cities that have

used it. in fact, it's usually other municipalities. things like water districts and those who foff -- including quite recently. the case that a lot of people are watching right now is the case involving have a lao, california. which has been in bankruptcy for several years. as far as the second epart of your question, what has been the resolve? it's really buried by murrayed orange county filed for bankruptcy in the 1990's and actually had a very successful chatchter 9 case in and emerged in much better shape than when it went in. others have found sleding a little tougher. >> one of the reasons chapter 9

imposes a lot of restrictions on who can file. one is the city must be insolve n't before it can file. and the bridge port, connecticut they tried file. but it wasn't clear. bridget was completely unable to pay or whatever, so that case didn't work out for them. but we've had a variety of results. >> how would you you see them -- their filing bankruptcy going forward? >> well, the way i see it going forward is the state files for bankruptcy and then does moreless we've been inside house and negotiated wit. to continue negotiations

already going on with its public employee unions. i would expect it to at least take a look at it's intentions and find out what needs to be done? what can be done with them going forward? >> i would have theolder of california bonds. so there would be negotiations amongst all these parties, ideally moving towards a restructuring plan that would involve a reduction of what each were entitled to. it would affect each of the major constituency. >> we got a tweet immediately saying bye-bye to union contracts if this happens. guest: i take that to be a question. the question is is it bye-bye to union contracts? the short answer is no. the effect of bankruptcy is bankruptcy would give the state

more leverage. there is the possibility of having the courts stop in and -- if the parties can't reach agreement. the reality is we would have more aggressive negotiation between the state and the unions. and we would reach a deal. that's what's happened in pretty much all of the major corporate bankruptcies that involve do so to i think that's what we would see with state bankruptcies as well. i do think they would be renegotiated. host: david skeel is our guest. weaver talking about states and bankruptcy. the numbers have been on the screen. remember at this area code is 2-02. 737-0002 for republicans.

first call up is from florida. and a republican. how are you? caller: good. guest: go ahead with your question. caller: i'm just wondering why it's so easy for everybody to jump on the bandwagon and say we're dangerous. a cammy of governments. the city is government. you know, i know in the past we've had cities that dr. not cities that -- but companies go bankrupt. but come on. i mean, everyone's got their hand out and they want to get paid some money to get out of the hole. what can, you know, i just think they should be made more accountable. that's all. >> david conceal? >> well, i have a couple of reflies that. one is i think ever right that we would not want states just to be tetch one of the things

we've heard over the last few weeks as this debate has been raging. is governors sayings we don't think in the end we will need that. we think we can muddle our way through these problems without bankruptcy. and i think that's going to be the state response. a state is not going to file for bankruptcy just for the fun of it. bankruptcy is no picnic. so that would be my first reaction. my other reaction is we really need consider the all terntives. if we do have a stay that is simply in over your head. the alternative to bankruptcy may be some kind of federal bailout. or the other alternative is to just complete default. so i think it's really important to consider what the

alternatives are. if a state's over its head, with which would you rather have? more federal bailouts to the states of a sort, or would we wrath herb have a restructuring option, which is bankruptcy? i think in that context, it's a better al terntive. host: what about any state that's having trouble that says we can't pay our bills. we're done. >> i don't think there's a lot anybody can do. it's the one real iron quis. of the petition to have -- if you hold a foff guest: yes. california has committed itself to pay those off. but there's not a lot you can do if california says we just can't pay. and we won't pay.

and as a good illustration of how that can work. that's effectively we have had countries havenlging on from time to time. ar general if with a country unlike with a corporation, your as a creditor are kishede of limited. your options are limited state simply says forks we cannot pay. host: arnold from tennessee you're on with david conceal. bankruptcy is the topic. caller: how are you? host: good. caller: ralph nader said we're going to have to depend on the super rich of the world nord to save us from these it sems like

-- the programs for the poor. and nobody, it seems is asking any of the super rich to contribute anything. excuse me. i substituter slightly. my name is arnold joseph white. and itch co-authored a book entitled "define nine/11 intervention." you can download it for free at godislove doifering. and if you go to yoo tube and type in the curtain is moving again, i just wanted to share that with you. host: all right. we appreciate with you. anything you want to respond to there, david skeel? guest: well, i'll just pick up on cuts for the poor. i do think that one of the

dilemmas that we have in the current predicament is that if we don't have a bankruptcy option, the burden of the excessive of a number of states is going to fall, and two constituencies that come to mind are dw those are the places where state governs really are looking to cut right now. and i think there's a pretty good argument that they shouldn't bear all of the burden. and one of the benefits of a bankruptcy alternative is the burden would be distributed among all of the con skitch they are not the ones that can be the -- host: jay, what's the name of your town?

caller: anger will turn against whatever it takes. so that this nation will be able to stand firmly together as brothers and sisters. which is the forefounding fathers' number one goal in the first place. the only reason america has stood to stand is because we've worked together through times of struggle, not pointing fingers. host: so tie this into states and bankruptcy in your conclusion. caller: absolutely. host: okie dokie. we're going to move on to fair haven, new jersey. maggie on our democrat's line. you're on the air. caller: professor, the definites -- the deficits we are facing here in new jersey, the last to declare bankruptcy

is one more way to aid us in the race to the bottom that we fofe stop i would love nothing more than to be able fch and just get -- things people -- the working class have been struggling and earned. and this is not a solution. the solution is revenue. it's not -- you know, the problem is the deficit -- the solution isn't making it worse for the working class. it should be making it better for the working class, because that's the only way we're going to get out of the economic crisis we find ousts in. host: david skeel. guest: reactions to that, one, you're right that there are other alternatives that states ought to be pursuing. many of them are pursuing spend

the there's the if that is sufficient to deal with its crisis. i agree with you. we wouldn't want a state to be -- in the bankruptcy. i also think governor -- you can't pick and choose which to hurt in bankruptcy. so one who wants to cut back on union contracts, they look great from that perspective but may not think it looks quite so good for a wall street perspective. because it also means cutting back on your other benefits.

10th problem is the not in inflicted. eff the state of new jersey has a budget short fall of bbt 27%. california in the 1940's. nevada in the 1940's. at what point do we have to seriously look at bailouts from congress or some type of bankruptcy? i mean, how long can this be sustained? >> it guest: it certainly can't be as to exactly what is the point where it's no longer sustainable. and you have to look at what the hrt-term obligations are as opposed to the long-term obligations which may be the problem. so what is the point at which they pass the point of no return?

but it does seem clear that a number of states are getting close to that point. a number of states are in a fiscal crisis we really haven't seen in our lifetime. host: do you foresee congress getting involved in bail zouts >> no. congress was quite resistant to bail out the banks of the ate motive industry, and in 2008, they did agree obviously to this $700 billion tarp fund. but most of the other proposals they shot down. i think there's a perception at this federal government just doesn't have more money for bailouts. i don't think this congress is going to have the stomach for it. so if they -- i think it would have to --

host: mitch daniels was recently quoted as saying illinois. it's like living next door to the simpson's. quite disfunctional. what problems does a state like illinois have that affects its surrounding states? guest: well, obviously there is there's lots of commerce that goes back and forth. there's also a perception of states and state fiscal responsibility that is a little bit contagious. although, i would really emphasize a little bit. i think for the most part, states are on their own bottom. i don't think there's an enormous to have fch which -- i think illinois at this point is

in much, much worse condition than indiana is. and there are a lot of doubts as to whether illinois has the political will power and wherewithal to deal with this problem. host: jim, please go ahead. caller: good morning. mr. skee, this is quite an interesting toic. -- mr. skeel. this is quite an interesting top i can. when i look at the bankruptcy laws, i i don't think creditors would arbitrarily jump all over the state and try to force it. because then they'll only get texas for a dollar and when they go bankrupt, the state takes it over. if the state went bankrupt does that mean the federal government would come in and take it over? i don't think that's the solution. i think what has to be done is

a revised-type bankruptcy law where when we see a debt to ratio earnings -- there's independent audience scene. and say ok. you do get the opportunity to go in and negotiate contracts, cuts, waste. maybe they would not take any more welfare cases from out of state residents. there's a number of things that can be done. because let's face it. if reason these states go bankrupt is much akin to the automake ers. of well, one thing i wouldal emphasize is at this federal government can't take over a state either in bankruptcy or outside bankruptcy. so the bankruptcy would have to be set up so at this state remains independent. it is a sovereign entity, and

the state is making a decision whether to file a -- whether to file for bankruptcy and making its decisions while he's in sum -- i think that's a really interesting idea. you do have the same types of constraints. you can't have a program that forces states to go things, because again, that would interfere with state sovereignty. but there are things that you might be able to do that didn't involve directly forcing the state's hand. you might have trance parentsy requirements or you might have this disclosure of the condition of your pensions or of your bondt or of your other obligations. so i do think there are intermediate postages fep the

-- next call comes from washington, d.c. caller: i was particularly alarmed that some states may choose to go the route of argentina and default and say we're not going to pay our creditors. in that hypothetical scenario, why wouldn't the creditors have a claim to the assets of the state or a claim against the people of the state since the government is representive of the people? and why wouldn't our legal system back that claim up? guest: well, the difficulty is that -- you would have a claim. but the difficulty is actually enforcing that claim. with an ordinary corporation you can enforce that claim against property of the corporation. and you can use that front repay what you're o'ed. with a state it's much more

complicated because a state cans a metter. it would be nearly impossible to enforce the flame other fofe let me tell you, the difficulty is there's not an easy way to back that up with a legal threat against the state because of a state's esovereign immunity. host: are there several policy that is could help states ease their budget deficits or prevent a bankruptcy? guest: this is another great question. i think there probably are. one thing that some people have talked about a little bit is adjusting the way we do medicaid. a big expense for many states is their adjusted share of medicaid costs. that there could be ways to adjust that, that could be win-win for the federal

government ejohn, democrat, hi. >> one of the corrections i had to have in our state of illinois, we eff definitely were -- big problem here. but the -- say the state goes into bankruptcy and the beneficiaries of either medicaid or state-run health insurance, that would fall back on to the patients themselves and they sign papers saying they guarantee they will pay insurance if the original person doesn't. so thank you very much. host: david skeel? guest: i think this may be not wondering but moving outside of my expertise. i don't know the particular mechanics of how the health care in a particular state is

structured or even how medicaid is structured within a particular state. so >> who has what obligation. the bottom line is if there were a state bankruptcy, it's unlikely health or pension benefits might be severely cut. there might be some cuts. i think they would be very limited with respect to existing benefits. they would marc most likely affect future benefits. but the political rally is such that even if it were possible, i don't know fofe it would be a problem to cut them severely. host: so david skeel, a state like illinois, how did they get to where they are? what are one or two of their main expenses that a bankruptcy

could ease 4 eff how they got there is keep in mind of everything they've done financially over the last 15-20 years. the things you would look at, the major things would be the collective bargaining agreement and pensions that would be extraordinarily good over the last year. you would also look at their bonds to fund ordinary operating experience november so the state if you would start with a collective barkening agreement and look for ways to restructure it so that it's not a huge hit for the employees. but so that it's a little bit more realistic going forward. i think you'd look at the bond debt, and then the third thing

would be the pension promises and the funding of the pension. host: knot port, alabama. archie, you're on the air with law professor david skeel. caller: we've got an example of what caused all this back in the late 1970's foff who let a care sfrovet -- of course gas prices skyrocketted. we went into a recession, and started sending tenings of billions to solar. and when reagan got elected, he said it cost eight times as much to produce electricity with solar than with -- we were

paying -- host: archie, i'm going to say thank you for calling in. we're going to move on to webber in coal pepper , virginia. we were talking about fighter -- caller: can you towards state prison system? because i know that's big business across the states, but they don't want to talk about their prisons. take the state of north carolina. they have 100 counties and they have almost 100 prisons in every county. and i know croice the country they have a lot of prisons across every state. so could you address how much money they would absorb is that one of your areas of expertise? guest: it is largely not my area of expertise. although i will say many states are looking at that issue.

how to make it more cost effective without undermining the system. so i will say that much. the particulars are really beyond my expertise. rough. independence -- independent line, please go ahead. caller: the point i'd like to make is that we thought it was worth caller: for other corkses, why aren't states that much? how did we reach the point where a few corporations are worth more to the welfare of the country than the financial solvens cri of our states? host: david skeel? scoip this is a number of those bailouts in 2008. i think they were a mistake. i think you have to look at

each situation and ask the question should we be bailing out these entities? i think it was a mistaking to do all thal bailouts we did in 2008, starting with the bailout of bear snerns early fosme guest: the question is are we better off bailing out the state or entity on the one hand or using a bankruptcy-kind of restructuring on the other? i think we overused bailouts in 2008. and i'm making a similar type of argument now. some would say states are different in that states ought to have responsibility for their own fiscal condition. and at this government has more of a direct responsibility for the fmple -- you can -- but i

think you make a good point that there's an analogy between the two. i would treat it by saying i think we were a little too quike to use bailouts in if so sfosme -- caller: generally business law. host: please address how a state bankruptcy would be different than a personal bankruptcy or a corporate bankruptcy. guest: well, the main difference is that with a state bankruptcy, a state is a sovereign entity, and the bankruptcy system would therefore need to be structured so that state decisionmaking powers were not interfeared with and the state could not be thrown involuntarily into

bankruptcy. that's one major simps -- you can't lick we date a state. if you have a corporation and it doesn't work out, it can be licked dated. it makes the process a little more complicated. host: washington, d.c., go ahead, jerry, we have about a minute left. caller: hi. i wanted to point out i don't know so much about illinois but in new jersey and california isn't it a problem of their own making? california can't raise revenue without fofe they won't do what's necessary to actually bring more rev if you then in new jersey the governor gave a tax cut to the top 2% of the country to the tune of $100

million or something like that then turned around around tried to cut that same amount out of the state education budget. host: david skeel? guest: this is another great question, and in each of these cases the predicament is largely of the state's making. not entirely, but largely. 10th question we have is in a situation where they are really responsible, what do we as a country do? do we let them take responsibility? do we force them to take responsibility? or do we provide an alternative. it's hard to say let's just sometimes you can conclude well, it would be a mistake to under the sfmp i think in these contacts at least having a

last-resort bankruptcy option makes sense even though it may enable some states to use it who are the source of their own predicament. host: last call for david skeel comes from venice, florida. hi jen. >> hi. caller: thank you. thank you for c-span. i have a comment then a solution. first of all, there's the basis of all this comes from washington, d.c. being bankrupt back in 1933, franklin d. rose velt declared bankruptcy and the state signed on to help the federal government out of their situation. so all the money the stapets send to the federal government, we need to keep it here in the states. host: quick comment out david? guest: the relationship between the federal government and then -- it's very complicated.

i don't think we can rely on the government step in, if there's a fair to storm. host: thank you david skeel a law professor at the university of pennsylvania. we've been talking about states and bankruptcy. thank you for your time this morning. we appreciate it. that's the end of our show today. in just a minute we're going to take you live to the senate budget committee. there's a live look at senator konrad, democrat of north dakota with changes to to so -- we'll be touching -- they'll be touching on some of the issues we've been discussing with some of our previous guests. "washington journal" as always baseball here tomorrow morning, but this weekend we have a live "in depth" at noon to 3:00 p.m. r. emmitt the editor in cef