so many small businesses and retailers and shopkeepers have every week, when they cannot get credit from any bank? i know those who have put up proposals for manufacturing in taking on extra employees who can i get a red cent from the banks. what they're supposed to do is bring in a credit insurance scheme as applies in many other countries, discuss financing, where they stood a portion of the risk which its greater flexibility to the banks to allocate credits to businesses which then can be freed up to create jobs and grow our economy. this is absolutely critical. we're going nowhere unless credit been given to small businesses, the lifeblood of this economy and which has enormous capacity to >> we need to put in $145

billion of buyers taxpayers' money. it looks like we could meet another $50 billion. how much more money would you actually put into the bank? >> this is nothing new. for small businesses and for everybody out there in the economy, we need to get the two main banks up and running and on solid footing. we are talking about $45 billion in re-capitalization. there is a contingency fund of

$25 billion. we have to await the outcome of the stress tests. depending on the outcome of those tests, we have to discuss again with the european central bank and others how to deal with this. >> will you put that $10 billion into banks? >> this was approved for being put into the banking system. we did not have the mandate. they want to fill up climates to various positions. >> that was reported decision and a half an hour later, mind changed.

>> they were correct when they said this was a prudent thing to do. you cannot penalize bond holders of less a bank has been declared insolvent. the bank can still recover. it will make its way back to being a proper trading bank. in the context of putting extra money into these banks, my party would be reluctant to do that if it is beyond what we are committed to. >> is that your policy, to? >> to defer the money for the

banks was due to the election. >> we did not have a mandate. >> it was not a mandate for a long time. the bank of ireland and the aib require recapitalization. extent of whathe that recapitalization is until the stress tests are completed at the end of march. what we need to do -- i welcome that they $10 billion was deferred. it allows a parent of time to enter into renegotiations with bondholders. it allows a space to look at the restructuring of bags. additional money going in has to be conditional on a number of things. it has to address the extent of credit and addressing the problem of the rise in interest rates.

one of the main issues that is raised all the time is a worry about the interest rates going up. other banks are talking about raising their interest rates. any recapitalization of the banks, there has to be a quid pro quo. >> people are saying different things. the aib and bank of ireland have to be protected and would have to be survived, that is the bottom line no matter who is elected. banks would two main have to be strengthened and unable to recover in order to do your thing on mortgages and for small businesses and in terms of the economy. we are getting two different messages. the threat has been made >>

we've got a clear message. we would like to see bank of ireland be able to get back to where it used to bait of its own volition. we will wait and see. aid has some difficulties for we believe it should be sold and continue to be a strong bank and you make a third banking force. >> for people watching these billions get bigger, this could be doubled are you happy with the way nama is going? >> i believe it was the wrong kind of creation. currently, there are people

working in banks, hundreds of them, assessing loan valuations. it is not accountable enough. there should be competition between asset management group's for delivering. it is there legally. it has to have an injection of confidence, accountability, transparency. $215 million was spent already. >> we have to stop the problem getting worse with nama. we thought that was the wrong way to go. many of these loans have been transferred into nama. nama ii are the smaller loans and the labor party believes

that should not proceed. should notama iii proceed either. it is what they are going to do now with the sale of the assets. they have taken these loans at a discount. the next issue is whether or not those assets will then be sold at back out again at a further loss to the irish people and the irish taxpayer. that is the area the labor party would be focused on. as taxpayers, we could detect a second time for them being sold off. >> if is that a fair point? >> they will run with nama, they will not change it. nama is up and running for over

one year. we want to win back the money for the taxpayer. the most important thing mostnama is that the taxpayer has to be paid back. >> they want to outsource the management of 70% of nama to private asset companies. the problem should be going to the taxpayer. -- the profit should be going to the taxpayer. it is taking the assets that the tax payer deserve. it should not be privatized to private asset management companies who make a profit on that ve. >> the author of nama said this

is not what he envisaged. this is a secret society, in fact. the economy will not move until there is an injection of capitalization and we know the register of loans or until there is movement in the property section that is transparent and accountable. that is not there now. >> let's move onto public finances. this is money in their pocket. too many people. you say that you accept the plan in treating the 3% of gdp. you plan to deal with this with

73% spending and 27% taxes. what will those taxes be? >> it will not be an increase in income-tax. the proposals in terms of tax versus costs in administration and inefficiency work out at 73/27. for the average family, in the context of the labor party, having changed its view, the extra amount of income tax per family would be about $1,300. in the case of the other party, it would be $4,000. we recognize that you cannot tax our way out of this recession. you have to keep taxes low. you have to keep interest rates low. you have to keep confidence moving so that unemployment can

come down and jobs can be created and protected. we have put together our program without a property tax. what we have done is to say to the local authorities that we will give you the responsibility and the authority, if you wish, after 2014, to consider whether you should introduce a profit tax on the sale of houses. both parties will have a set valuation whether you have negative equity, unemployed, living in a or living in a tax house. our plan is based on not having a property tax. we will give the local authorities the option to reduce their charges or do nothing. after 2014. >> what is your reaction to the

other proposal? >> we have to be straight with people. the tax package is $2.4 billion. that does not include the additional taxes that will go through the local authorities system. there is an introduction of water charges. there is a graduate tax for young people coming out of college. when you add those together, it is about $4.1 billion. at the end of the day, the bottom line is what matters. it is the tax that you peg. it doesn't matter where it comes from. it is still taxation. the labor party proposal is absolutely clear. we will not increase income tax on people earning less than $100,000 per year. we have put forward a package of revenue-raising measures which includes an increase in the carbon tax, some on the

elimination of tax expenditures in areas like large pension pots and the phasing out of the remaining property related that comes to just under 3 billion euro between now and 2040. >14. >> i will get into any questions of the situation breaking because the election has not been held yet. we have signed on for water charges after eight fee allocation has been given vern. we need an investment in broadband. there would be a charge levied for the provision.

>> we will come back to elections. 2/3 - 1/3 is your plan. what will the taxes be? >> we have secured already $20 billion from the $30 billion. we have taken tough decisions to correct public finances. we are talking about $6 billion in expenditures. we spell that out in our plan. what we are doing is talking about water, and a broadening the base. that has been recommended by every tax group. we will do that and we have been upfront about that. the finnegan plan is not

credible. they say $6.5 billion without any details. they will take out 30,000 public service. they will all go voluntarily. , apparently. that is not credible. our plan is credible and we have laid it out in terms of what we will do in savings. he said we are not going to do it nationally. he is putting it through the local authorities. this will choke jobs if you give it to the local authorities.

>> the problem is that he does not have a plan that also is forced to talk about other plans. our plan is designed to get ireland work again. every business in the country, every household in the country, has got to go according to its measure. >> we know the issues. let's talk solutions. >> let's talk about these things. if we are elected to government, we will have a jobs budget. >> why didn't you tell journalists where you are going to make the savings department by department?

you avoided that and refuse to do it. >> that is an enormous spoof that we get from the other side. >> i have a five point plan. i asked a simple question. why did it to give the details? >> it is all there on our website. >> it is not there. >> [unintelligible] >> it is not there in terms of the $6.5 billion in cuts. >> may i deal with taxes?

there are a series of interruptions here will never appears to open his mouth when we talk about the issues. >> left unanswered. -- let him answer. >> we would introduce a jobs budget within 100 days. we will have employers have extra encouragement. it will affect the construction industry, the tourism industry, everything. we will bring in the credit insurance. where are counselors are in control, we issued instructions to freeze rates and reduce them if possible.

>> i think we have to be clear with people. these are the questions that people want answered. they want to know what a new government will do in terms of taxation. the labor party has been very clear on this. there will be no increase in income-tax and we have spelled out where taxes will be adjusted. in relation to cuts -- that is the other side of the equation. we can say that we won't raise taxes but when you introduce cuts like child benefits which it families, they are making other cuts. you have to look at the cuts that will be made in terms of the numbers of people who are employed. the labor party believes that we can reduce the payroll and reduce the numbers of people who are employed in public service and we can do that on a voluntary basis.

my concern is that a finegale government would proceed with this plan and take 30,000 people out of public service and that would result in people being compulsorily redundant. there be additional cuts by 2014 after this reduction. may i also say that frankly, i think he has no credibility. you have crucified people in this country. you have 20 billion of cuts and so on over the last couple of years. every worker in this country looking at their pay packet in january seize the amount taken out in terms of the universal charge and additional taxes. you have no credibility. you have imposed excessive taxes on people. you have cut people to the bottom.

families are suffering. they can't afford to suffer anymore. >> but you will not reduce one single tax. you have campaigned against this. >> we have been realists. >> you say that is all right. >> we will reverse. a decision that you made to cut the minimum wage. [unintelligible] on the universal social charge, we will make changes to that. there were people who cannot afford it. >> let me bring you in on the minimum wage. >> i did not get an answer to

the earlier question. why have you not published these cuts? >> 21% is going up again next year nextfinnegale is voted in. >> the finnegale party said we would abolish 145 quangos. we know the duplication that exists. if we are to deal with the public service in terms of its numbers and in terms of its costs, i value the work of public servants do. if you want to save money, the

system has strangled people. the government program is for 12,000 people to leave the public service by retirements. everybody understands that. our program is 30,000 people be on that. two weeks before christmas, the hsc had 2000 voluntary redundancies. we know their offices around the country that duplicate the kind of work. it is possible in my view to have a reduction over 10 years. that will give the protection to the front line services which are so critical. you'll have a leaner, more efficient public service which will protect the public salaries which we said we would. it is not -- if it is not dealt with by the third quarter of this year, we will be in trouble.

>> if you talk about intent, you are talking about taking "teachers out of every school. -- two teachers out of every school. >> you promise everything for everybody in the audience. >> if you and exclude people at the front line, you are no longer talking about good intent. you might be talking about one in five which is a tall order to get on a voluntary basis within three or four years. if you can i get them on a voluntary basis, are you going to proceed? if you don't proceed with compulsory redundancy in terms of your budget proposals, it simply does not add up. this is an issue. we may have to sit down and

hammer this out after the election. if you don't do it that way, your numbers want add up. we then have to talk about the period of time within which the deficit is reduced. >> there is a difference of opinion between the labor party and the finnegale party. there is a target we accept. if the growth projections are not as strong as was an originally envisaged, the deal allows for a further extension by one year. in all of those conditions would finnegale accept that. we think we can achieve the growth figures. >> go back to the public sector.

>> we said we would honor public salaries with a different view about investment of public moneys to create other jobs. there are conditions about redeployment of staff. our program does not envisage any compulsory redundancies. we believe very strongly that over the four years, we can achieve and 18,000 production by voluntary redundancies. >> the big issue here goes to the heart of the lack of credibility of the finneglae plan. we are talking about 6.5 billion. you are nowhere near 6.5 billion. abolishing 145 positions will not get to 65 -- 6.5 billion. this is cutting people.

the electorate boasted no new income tax. 6.5 billion through waist. we have laid it out department by department where we will make the savings. >> there are choices. >> you can save money by waste but i am talking about 6.5 billion. let's be realistic. >> let him get in there. >> 6.5 billion is what i am talking about. >> we all understand that there can be deficiencies in our public service. the expert group that looked at health services estimated it was a 19% savings that could be made across health services. there are ways in which savings

can be made across every agency. if you give the management of those state agencies to the discretion to do this savings. one thing the labor party would do is we would say to public service managers that if you can get a 2% reduction in your budget each year over three years, that is a total of 6% @ week will give you discretion as to how you manage that. the problem is that you have been over-or rigid management of the public system. if you take the embargo, the recruitment embargo. >> let me come back to that. i am trying to give you equal time. >> you cannot say that you could get to savings without being specific.

the efficiencies that eamon is talking about are already taking place. if you talk to people, they will tell you quickly there can be more savings and there will have to bathe. e. we say that specifically and we are laying it out. it is not honest to say you could come up with a figure like 6.5 billion without saying where you are going to get it. it is not credible to say it will take out 40,000 public servants. >> he represented his country and his government for 14 years. he accepted no responsibility for not reading his brief. >> that is not true. that is false.

>> we will move to jobs. for many people watching tonight, 439,000, what is the plan to create jobs? is it credible it will work said to have been in government for 14 years? >> we are in the worst recession since 1929. that is the context in which we are operating. it is not just an irish recession. it is a global recession. most independents say it has to be an export-led recovery. we have prepared and published a blueprint for the agricultural and food industry. >> how many jobs will that create? >> technology is another key

sector. medical devices and pharmaceuticals are other areas. we can create $150,000 over -- 150,000 jobs over the next four years we will have an extensive capital program which will be labour-intensive. we will have a national retrofit program. that will create thousands of jobs, as well. there is a coherent jobs plan there. we did it before in this economy which created significant wealth and new jobs and exports last year were up by 7% and it does look again for 2011. >> where were all these ideas

when you were in government? the people want to know if you knock on a 1000 doors, 980 people will take your jobs. is important for dignity. finnegale set at our five point plan and jobs is the primary function. >> how will you create them? >> we will invest 7 billion from the national reserve for the sale of non-strategic state assets to investment program where we create 100,000 jobs over four years in water, broadband, and in renewable energy. we would abolish the travel tax.

the airlines need to belly up. there will be changes would make for employers to take this tack obstacles to employment. to deal with the issue of inspections, the plethora of red tape that is in there that is costing 500 million per year, you can do these things by decisive action. >> what you think about other proposals? >> i met a first-time voter today who told me that she could not remember in her lifetime when finnegale was not in government. when they took over office, we were created 1000 new jobs per week. 1000 people are leaving this country every week now.

in the short term, construction, we have to get people back to work in construction. the labor party would get our program moving and get the retrofit program moving. we would establish a jobs fund where employers would get relief when they take on new employees. we would make changes in retail which is a big area where there has the loss of jobs. we would allow the downward revision of rents. in the medium term, the strategic investment bank would provide credit for small and medium-sized businesses who are people who generate employment or create jobs. thirdly, we would concentrate on a particular sectors of the economy where there is potential to grow. we have huge potential for trade with countries like china and india. only 2% of our exports go to china. this is the fastest growing country in the world and its economy is growing fast.

we need to be much more up to speed with trade and have trade missions there and be developing our trade with those countries. this would happen in areas like food and new energy. we all know that oil will run out. oursea area is 10 times our land area. we have a potential for 75,000 jobs in that area. it is employers who create jobs. government has decreed the circumstances. >> on the issue of businesses, many people are unemployed in medium and small businesses. quite a number of people are literally crucified by the banks.

what would you do -- what would you promise to do to get credit to those businesses? they awake in the middle of the night and they are worried because they have no money and cannot get access to credit. >> there are different sectors in the small business sector. we have to reduce the commercial risk. that would give breathing space to small businesses in this country. >> the banks have to be financed. there is still an issue in terms of getting credit into small businesses. governments don't create jobs on their own except from capital programs. i have been on trade missions to china.

there is support for startup companies and research grants in terms of marketing. also improving and enhancing business management capabilities. when i was on trade missions to the silicon valley, we brought people out there. they said that irish companies have the best technology and the world. -- in the world. the one problem they lack is marketing capability and ambition. we need to support companies. these would be largely export companies. this is about being credible with people. you can't raise 7 billion without a fire sale of strategic

assets. it was said it was a public- relations avalon. dd-on. >> we need to be credible with people in terms of what the future is. ireland slipped to 20 points in the competitive rating. that is because the minister did not institute what he should have done. stockbrokers of dun and evaluation of non-strategic assets. there is several billion to be had there. there is a report that was not published because of the election. >> which assets would you sell?

>> we would sell power generation. >> that is strategic. >> the power generation unit is in competition with other competition for electricity at the moment. we would sell gas generation but not the pipelines. these are strategic assets. it is not true to say that you can't put together a fund of 7 billion. it would not be sold at fire sale prices. by 2016, i would like to demonstrate that we're the best small country in the world to do business. are don't agree that they non-strategic assets. power generation is pretty

strategic critically on an island. that is the first thing. the second thing is that you certainly would not sell those assets now when the market is low. we need to have the resources in order to put into employment creation. we cannot tell people who are out of work that we will have to wait until the price is right for the sale of esp power generation to get people into employment. there are lots of good ideas. the irish export economy is doing well. the food sector is doing very well. the domestic economy is not doing well. this comes back to the whole issue of if we take too much money out of the economy in budgetary measures and insist on getting the deficit down to 3% by 2014, too much money would be

taken out of the economy. >> the most strategic issue facing this country in the next decade as the country is difficult recession will be energy. the state needs to keep its lever of control over energy. to take the state out of power at generation would be a huge mistake. i am suspicious of your proposal. we saw what happened with russia and other states in europe. we see now the law -- middle eastern crisis at the moment.

this is a serious issue and we need to be extremely careful as to how we approach this. >> there are many people worried about health issues. on health, you have the health insurance scheme based on the dutch model. it is a good model but how would it work here? we don't have the big insurance companies they have and the netherlands. isn't there a risk he would end up with quite a few companies that it would be privatized? >> no, is the answer to that question. the legacy has been a disaster for some of the people. what happens to most deputies from all parties is that they are now getting more volumes of phone calls from people about the situation that their families are inverted sunday

night, a woman seven months pregnant had to lie on the floor in the hospital for 24 hours. eamon said he would abolish this. wants to change the system radically. we want to end the two-tier system. we would not privatize the whole system. we would eliminate waiting lists, allow for a situation where money follows the patient and hospitals get paid for what they do and not for what they think they might do and the third thing -- >> i know you don't want to remove a hsc.

what would your view of it being abolished to be? be? >> we have to concentrate on reforming the system rather than reforming structures and institutions. it has been bogged down for a number of years prepar. we would change the system. the labor party is in broad agreement with finnegale on changing universal -- changing to universal health insurance and ending the two-tier system. we have set out a two-phase strategy to do that. the first phase would be to concentrate on primary care. we want to upgrade that by year

four to have free primary care for everybody as part of insured system. that would cost 489 million europe. we have identified where the savings would be. the second phase is the hospital phase which would take another two years where we end up with a fully insured system, it transformed health system which will be more efficient and would save money and which would be more fair for patients. >> it sounds like a good idea. would you accept that? >>no, i think it is a crazy idea. believe inon't even the dutch model. a recent study has now said there were major flaws with this dutch model. dr. riley acknowledged that on

monday. he said he would look into it. it cost deducted extra 1 billion in the first few years. he has not factored in the capital requirements. the hsc block grants to all the hospitals across the country. in holland, it is costing an average family 5500 per annum. >> in ireland, and your minister for a time and were responsible for selling h updatesc, we have

ended up with a very expensive health system. we are paying a huge amount of money. it is dysfunctional. we have people not able to get into hospitals this year than ever before. [unintelligible] we are talking about reforming the system. we published an entire document on the details. >> he now says that the last thing our system needs is a major restructuring. the new spokesman on health says the two-tier system is working very well if anybody was going to privatize the whole system, it will be them. they took up private lands which could have been used for the

expansion of private hospitals. a good friend of mine died recently. he had tumors. he could not get a bed in his hospital. they had to drive up to the emergency room and camp out there until they are admitted. many fine people working in the service work under enormous stress but the system has strangled them. >> thousands of people working in health care have achieved quite a lot. we are treading more people faster and with better outcomes than ever before.

we have transformed the way we deal with heart conditions and cancer. he talks about 14 years and is five point plan and he wants to lay off more people in health care. that is a plan that would take 10 years to implement. >> i am not sure where he has been for the last 14 years the way he talks. >> they said they have 2000 people in the hsc and they could do the job with 780. there was 200 million wasted on the computer system which never worked. the report was never produced.

[unintelligible] >> why are you avoiding the detail? you don't have a plan. >> [unintelligible] you have no details here. what is the cost? >> i told you what the cost is. [unintelligible] >> you have failed to do the job and we have done a lot. >> some of the best economic

years we have in this country -- 14 years, we have some of the finest people working in our health service. we are a country of 4.5 million people. >> i am moving on. >> 10 years ago, he was supposed to employ 19,000 people in health care. >> i am going to move on. there are some of the issues that we want to address people talk about social injustice and the quality. there are issues of disability, gay marriage, a children's referendum. governments have dodged these issues. if you had one key social justice issue that you would

pursue if you were in government, what would it be? >> it would be looking after people with disabilities. it would be about cutting the blind pensions. . the first area that labour would address in terms of equality and giving support to people would be the area of disability. i think we have to make that the priority. >> i would share that and i feel another priority is the 300,000 people who suffer per year. also i would mention suicide visitation families. >> we need to make provisions for our special needs children at. .

my driving passion in life is what every child in this country should have the opportunity to progress and seek equality of opportunity in education. we need to improve our education system so those with a respectable background have that opportunity in life. >> we started at the beginning talking about the position our country is in. this is an election like no other. people are frightened. we desperately need strong leadership to inspire confidence and give people a belief that there is a way out. why do you believe you can be that leader? >> i have a deep sense of conviction that i know how to fix what has been wrong in ireland for so long and change the politics of collusion and crannies and give people a sense

of direction that there is a way forward. what i want to do is be able to have the first deaths toward economic and political independence. we want to send imf and we want to create jobs that have the best small country in which to do business and raise a family. we are the best small country to grow old with a sense of dignity and respect them in terms of leadership, what is required as honestly. >> in terms of leadership, what is required is honesty. we need the capacity to be radical and assess where we are we need to invite people from

outside the political arena to serve in government. we want to enhance and strengthen the role of parliament. i want to unify people as well. we don't want to section -- would want to target special interest groups. targeton't want to special interest groups. >> in terms of leadership, all kind of leadership would you offer at this critical time that would be different from both of the man beside you? >> it is around values and the labor party values are centered on the idea of fairness. we are all equal. we should be treated in an equal and a fair way. whatever decisions we have to make a government should be done

fairly. the second issue is that of good judgment. there will be moments in government when there will be a crisis you will be tested, your judgment will be tested when the labor party judgment was tested on the 13th of september in 2008, labor was the party that stood by the taxpayer. i have a passionate belief in the future of this country. i think this country will succeed. we are going for a very difficult time right now. we can come through it but we have to pull together as a people. the labor party is best placed to provide that leadership and bring people together. >> thank you all very much. we'll know everything by the weekend. that is it for tonight and thank you for watching. thank you all very much for watching. we're back tomorrow night for a very special show at 9:35.

good night and take care. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] >> candidates and ireland are taking part in the final days of campaigning as the country prepares to go to the polls on friday. the finnegale party is ahead in the polls for a campaign has been dominated by debate over ireland's growing debt and the loan package provided by the eu and international monetary fund. >> to is critically important

that the house move this cr to avoid a government shut down that we all have a responsibility to make sure there is no government shut down. >> concerns about a possible government shut down, see what was said when the government did shut down in 1995 on the cspan video library. search, watch, clip, and share any time, washington your way. >> "washington journal" is next and we will take your phone calls for it later today, i look at the role of the economy and unemployment place in the political unrest in the middle east. we will hear from the government of the tunisian central bank. we will have live coverage for the carnegie endowment for international peace. coming up this hour, rebecca heimlich of americans for prosperity discusses and ohio prosperity discusses and ohio