journal" is next. >> there was a rally in washington yesterday and solidarity with protesters in wisconsin. good morning and welcome to washington journal on this thursday, of february 24, 2011. as we continue following the showdown in wisconsin and other states, the governor's agenda is to cut the budget by taking away most public employees collective bargaining powers in wisconsin. if we are talking about unions this morning. the numbers to call if you are union members, --

202-629-0104 is the number to call for union members. you can also leave comments on our facebook page or twitter or give us an e-mail. this is from this morning --

so that's our question for this morning, do unions matter as we look at how the president is reacting, president obama speaks out. president obama after initially lending his support to organized labor, has stepped back from the fight. union officials are left divided about his tactics. democratic officials said that with mr. obama heading into a battle over the federal budget, climbing into the say over

public-sector collective bargaining could weaken his position as a dealmaker in washington. host: let's go to charlotte, north carolina, john on our republican line. guest: good morning. unions are very important aspect

of american employee rights and relations after the post industrial period, early 1900's to stop child labor and other abuses. now we have a better laws to protect individuals against that. the unions have become more of a political arm of the democratic party to basically mandatory fund-raise. the american electorate is hurting because of the state of the economy. they are starting to look at the fact that 15% of the american people are getting particular coddle treatment compared to what they are getting in the private industry. the american populace is starting to wake up. unfortunately, we are also seeing that mr. obama is siding with the elite 15% bette considers part of his base. that is alienating a lot of

americans that he is making that choice, because everybody is a worker. everybody is an employee. we have our employee, the american president, citing with the unions, which are 15%. he is also siding with groups that are obviously a socialist, marxist, communist. we have a big problem in this country. as the party showed in the last election, the american people are starting to wake up and see what they have at the helm of our country. not only in domestic politics, but foreign-policy. they are starting to get worried and upset and it will only come back to haunt the democrats not only in the states, but also the presidential election of 2012. host: we will leave it there. we will speak with your mayor in a little while, the mayor of charlotte, in about 45 minutes.

next, a democrat line in madison, wisconsin, hello, dorothy. guest: hello. i am close to the epicenter of what's going on with the collective bargaining rights. i am a retired teacher. i have to say that in my time in the district i was teaching in, the teachers were taking a pay freezes. trying to restructure the health care providers, because the health care costs were so expensive. unions, obviously, figured into what kinds of health care benefits and we were able to negotiate. as the last caller stated, we are only 15% of all the people who work in america. i guess, in my line of work, i have to wonder about all the

kids coming up who their parents want aid raised to the quality standard in china where people are earning $3 an hour or, if that is what's the anti-union idea is. unions were put together in order to help the people without a voice to have a voice. is there no union or just the private sector people coming together? he said that there were federal laws, but good luck for the average working person trying to fight. host: have you been involved in the protests or checking that out in%? guest: yes. everything you are seeing on tv shows about the feasibility of a divided there. it is pretty true in wisconsin. if there's any rhetoric out there trying to say that governor walker was forced to

put force on the streets, a cabdriver, a republican drove me the other day. he said that he never spoke about any of this when we voted for him. well we have to get out there and tell the story as well. now host: to the independent line, pat. is your union better? guest: absolutely. that's the last thing the middle class and i have left. republicans have joined with being very rich. there is no way 40 democrats who -- there's no way for the democrats or the independents who get their word out because the republicans own the media. they're absolutely isn't. the only way that the democrats

and independents can be heard at all is because the unions to support the other side and help people. there's many bearish corporate that don't need other help, but they keep getting it. they brought down the economy and now they are blaming teachers and nurses and policemen. what about all the states like alabama that have absolutely no unions and they are horrible? their economies are terrible. it is not the unions that are causing this, people. it is the gipper uber rich, the greedy. -- it is the uber rich, the greedy. host: let's take a look at the indianapolis star with this big

headline. joining us on the phone is mary beth schneider, a political reporter at that paper. guest: good morning. host: who is holding the cards right now? guest: it is hard to say. the democrats have the numbers to stay out. it is a question of how long they are willing to do that. the republicans can bring back a lot of the things the democrats are objecting to even if they die in the first half of the session, they can be amended in two other bills later. yesterday governor said that even if they pass a budget, if they don't deal with the education reforms that he wants -- and those include changes to collective bargaining for

teachers, expanded charter schools, and in particular the vouchers to send children to private schools --if you keep calling them for special session until new year's and this could go a long time. host: is that different than what's going on in wisconsin? guest: wisconsin is more about public employee bargaining and eliminating unions. there is a bill that has been heard in committee that would affect local government political bargaining -- i mean, collective bargaining. but this has been -- it is broader in indiana, it was triggered by a right to work bill, which republicans have taken off the table. the democrats did not come back when they did that. they are concerned about a lot of other bills, including the education bills. they put out a list of 11 bills. that they are concerned about.

one of them is the budget. that is because of the education funding part for the budget. and the vulture issue is being called a deal breaker by the democrats. issue.her-- host: there's been a story about someone using live ammunition. guest: the deputy attorney general has a private blog and uses to order. he sent out comments that a reporter noticed. he was talking about the wisconsin demonstrators and said that there were false reports about police going there and i believe that he exceeded that they used live ammunition. and there have been other comments made that were pretty harsh. there was a case in the state of a young black person beaten by police that he seemed to defend

the teenagers being beaten ups. he was fired yesterday by the attorney general. he has sent out a statement saying that he did not think his comments would be taken literally, that i don't think any reasonable person would conclude otherwise. the attorneys general's office said that they have irresponsibility of stability. host: now the democrats are in illinois. what do you know about where they are and how long they may stay away from wisconsin? guest: the house speaker has called this the great skedaddle, a speaker from illinois. according to the house minority leader, they have made their reservations while they were on

their way to illinois. they are at the comfort suites hotel in illinois. mostly sitting behind closed doors. a reporter yesterday noticed that they were not using the swimming pool or the hot tub. instead they are in a meeting room behind closed doors talking about bills. we will see how they get out of this pickle. i think there was some thought originally that if the republicans killed the right to work bill, that they would declare victory and come back. they did not do that. the republicans have been at a very rapid pace pushing through some real conservative wish list bills like they vaulters and expansion to charter schools -- vouchers, and a lot of labor bills. they felt the public really needed to look at the bills to see what they are.

i think it's going to take republicans saying that we will negotiate with some of these bills and we are going to make some concessions on some of them. but the republicans feel like we've already done that and we have accepted democrat amendments on these bills and we are not going to negotiate with people who go off to another state and that if they want to talk, they need to be here to do it. republicans will say this is what we are elected for and they won in november and they have a right to pursue their agenda. host: thanks for talking with us, mary beth, a political reporter. there website indistar.com. let's get to susan in north carolina on our republican line. caller: hello. 90% of the people with teaching jobs are democrat.

it is not because democrats are the only ones to go after it. i make under $15,000 a year. i get tired of hearing the same cliche that the rich republicans are saying. it has to do with your values and how you think. the democrat party and the teaching jobs, if people applied for one, you will not be let in. it is a closed door situation. that is a political movement. for the people to demand so much and for other people not to make much, to pay for them is really wrong. it has to do with integrity. if you investigated this, this is a real problem and it is across the united states. the people that are getting these teaching jobs and everything like that, they're democrats and it has been like that. our school system has failed because we don't let anybody else in because of the same mentality. host: let's go to a union

member, james, hindsville, alabama. caller: good morning. i am 27-year government employee. i have worked in management and other jobs and we both have unit and. when i started working in the 1980's, you will require to work. i work 70 hours per week. it was either you would work or you went home. it was not for unions -- everybody wants a job, but they are limitations. i find it ironic that the republicans are doing what they are and at the same time we are beating our drum and trying to help people in the middle east and egypt is a good example. the first thing those people were crying for something to represent the workers and making sure they're getting a fair shake in their jobs. then we have the audacity -- they have the audacity to come along and try to bust unions in america.

a good example is the lady on the phone talking about teachers. , on the, these are some of the most underpaid people on kurds and yet we have -- some of the most underpaid people on respecearth. we should be ashamed of what we pay teachers. we should make sure they get a fair way to eradicate -- to educate our children so we can get america back on track instead of what they are doing to them. host: our last caller spoke about teachers and teachers' union. let's look at it from new york. the headlinesat from new york.

we have a comment on twitter. sam writes that individuals have rights, groups don't have rights. let's hear from dan in pennsylvania. do unions matter? calle caller: yes, i used to belong to unions. they seem to have incentive to consolidate work habits. they are concerned about members, their presidents and their stewards and stuff like that. what are they going to do with a holiday tree? host: i don't know anything about that. but go to david in virginia beach. caller: if groups don't have

rights, a lot of corporations have rights. the teacher from the carolinas and unions hurt the budget. why does the north carolina governor have issues, they don't have the same union issues as wisconsin. i'm from south carolina. that is a right to work state. they have a budget issues. they don't have unions or union problems, but they are still cutting education. this is an attack on education, not an attack on unions. they are attacking public education. that is all this is about. if it's tax cuts, then why is governor walter giving tax breaks to international corporations, but asking the people within the unions to sacrifice even more, even up though they already say they will come to the table with concessions? this is about one aspect of public education and busting

unions. it's not about the budget. if they wanted to balance the budget in wisconsin, why give money to the corporations? did of the rich people and not the working people. host: those with the moral high ground, do not fully in fear or used children as political puppets, that was on twitter. americans favor union bargaining rights, this is a story from usa today. the republican governor and legislators in wisconsin promote making union workers pay more for benefits. ohio, new jersey, indiana, iowa, and other states with republican

governors are considering similar laws. good morning on the republican line. caller: i am a registered republican, but have voted libertarian since the mid 1990's. what happens in wisconsin, teachers getting a phony sick leave from doctors, these people should be fired immediately. as far as i'm concerned, i have never send my kids to the public schools where i live. my house taxes are $7,000 a year. i am middle-class, not very rich. tired of getting my pocket picked from all of these government employees. as far as public education, let's call it what it really is. it is government education. i would not call it public education. it is a government monopoly. the kids will never learn anything.

the government education should be totally abolished. all of these oracles government employees should be fired. give them pink slips. when their unemployment runs out, they should get a job in the real world like the rest of us. we should cut the size of state government by 90%. we should put an end to the redistribution of wealth and let natural selection take its course. host: juan writes this on twitter. bob, democratic college in massachusetts, good morning. matter? unions caller: the question is almost frightening that it could be put to a question. in massachusetts where i live, two major mill is, talking about children being -- education and schools and so on, if it were

not for unions, those children would be working as slave labor. that is what the unions did for us. there would not be a middle class in america if it had not been for the early unions. as far as people calling in, like the last caller on unions and this and that, they have no sense of history. all you have to do is pick up a history book and read it. massachusetts, people send their children to vermont to keep them away from the violence that was caused in and around strikes and in some mills that have the police on their side. all you have to do is open a history book. host: let me ask, how are they so relevant? you spoke about massachusetts as the epicenter of union activism when children were forced to work in factories. how are they relevant today? caller: because they speak for a

class of people that even the so-called democratic party is for getting the average american's, middle-class, and poor americans are being forgotten. if we don't have somebody to speak for us, 20 years down the road, we might see -- and this bothers me -- because people are calling and defending this governor. look at what is going on in the middle east. it is just people asking for the same thing they are trying to get in america. better wages, education, they are asking for the equal social rights. it is very similar here. we have had it too good. the young people don't know what it is to live in an environment where nobody here is your. -- hears you.

tweet from is a s earlier. and looking at a story in the wall street journal --

larry, union member in memphis. caller:? how are? this is a way to get rid of the middle class. if you get rid of the unions, you don't have a little class. the rich people in this country want to control 90% of the income in this country. they want to control 100%. they want to get rid of unions and middle-class. this is fascism. we have a corporate home government and the they don't give out anything except to the rich people. we need to get rid of this fascist government. we need to rally like the people in egypt. the same thing the people in the middle east are protesting for, they are trying to take from the american people right now. they don't care about the american people. host: call grove has weighed in

today. he talks about what is happening in wisconsin. he asks about the president's role in all of this and his position. this is why the president trying to -- that was the former senior adviser and deputy chief of staff to president george w. bush talking about president obama's relationship with what is happening nationally.

marlene, independent line, dickerson township, new jersey. caller: good morning. i would like to make a comment. a first call you got this morning came from north carolina. in new jersey we just had a firefighter, 37 years old, get permanent disability, go to north carolina and get a job as a firefighter for $30,000 a year. he's getting a $50,000 per year disability pension from new jersey while he is working as a firefighter for $30,000 a year on the exact same job. what people don't understand, new jersey, you need to look to new jersey because we are bankrupt. it's the unions that have done it. in my town in jefferson township is $15,000 a year per child for an education. a public education. the teachers make $50,000 to

$70,000 per year for what amounts to a part-time job. there are nine months a year. that salary does not include another $30 -- $30,000 for their benefits. probably close to $40,000 because in new jersey the teachers get vision care, dental, everything until the day they die. that's on the taxpayers. a person living in new jersey, i am literally being taxed out of my house. host: a cholera has written the following -- and let's look at a piece in the new york times --

rockford, illinois, eric, republican. everyone seems to be fleeing to your state. how are you? caller: good morning. thank you. unions matter in the private sector. they don't drive up the cost so that the non-union people can make a decent wage. in the private sector, such as the teachers, if unions are so great, why is the united states 37th in the world in the quality of education? i would put it that way. we were far from first. as far as labor laws and south labor, people need to get an education.

we have the department of labor that sets rules for such as things as child labor laws. and over time and things like that. we don't need the unions now to come around and negotiate so that your child does not have to work in a sweatshop. host: mary on our democrat line, pennsylvania. caller: what caused the economic collapse was deregulation and wall street. super rich caused the economic issues. they should have gone to jail. they are ok with trying to turn working people against one another to resent the union workers who negotiated for their salaries. when i was at penn state's i was in a group that tried to help chinese workers in sweatshops to get some rights. now we have the sweatshops here. host: detroit, michigan, scott, a republican. caller: i am a uaw worker.

there's a big difference between private unions and the public unions. you are lumping this together and it's not fair. the public unions, you don't need a union if you work for the government. they give you everything. we have been taking a beating 30 years, losing stuff left and right. now we are left with nothing. my health care, i have to pay my dental, i get $1,700 a year for my dental in retirement. of which i pay $500. that is all. they are saying the unions are evil, but we are not spirit of this they would quit allowing us together. it's not fair. host: now this --

host: now a union member in michigan. caller: thank you. i'm enjoying this conversation. i am a uaw retiree. the unions are good for america. without the unions, we would not have a middle-class. when you go back to how hard the unions and the workers fought for wages and respect on the fus, it is anuthl

outstanding history about unions fighting for the rights of ordinary people, fighting for health care, fighting for respect on the job. i cannot see why in the world anybody would think that the republicans, who are rich, who give tax cuts to the very rich and then go after the teachers, these teachers, it maybe not 100%, but the teachers work hard. they spend a lot of time getting educated. and the teachers are not to blame. host: let's look at this story we brought up a little earlier, as davidlist posing a on koch.

atlanta, georgia, joining us on our independent line. caller: good morning. i want to agree with the uaw worker from michigan who said that it's not fair to lump the private-sector unions with the government unions. i will guarantee, the poll that

i saw yesterday, 61% of the people against collective bargaining option for unionists , public service unions, i will guarantee that was taken among wisconsin and taxpayers, it would not have been 61% approval. thanks, the discussion. host: harrisburg, pennsylvania, a democrat line, zach. do the unions matter? caller: of course. i have lived on the government side and on the private side. i have to give it to our older americans who know our history and realize how we got to where we are. you have to realize, even the job you are working, before these guys came along, you would not be able to work there. you would not know when your day

off would be. you would not get paid holidays or six times. we forget the time when the company owns everything. the company owned r. vance, our housing, the company store. we were indebted to these people. -- the company owned our housing. let me just say that some people are saying that the teachers cannot strike. the biggest stick they have is their ability to hold schools hostage by saying that we are going to strike. get rid of that and you will be fine. collective bargaining works for the nba, the nfl, everyone else who needs to be sitting down at the table with their employer to get a fair deal. host: let's look at this. one of the big stories is what

is happening in libya. this piece is called "in libya, a nightmare." host: let's listen to comments that president obama made yesterday with secretary of state clinton by his side. >> i've asked my administration to prepare the full range of options that we have to respond to this crisis. this includes those actions that we may take and those that we will coordinate with our allies and partners or those that we will carry out through multilateral constitutions. like all governments, the libyan government has a responsibility to refrain from violence, to allow humanitarian assistance to

reach those in need, and to respect the rights of its people. it must be held accountable for its failure to meet those with possibilities and face the cost of continued violations of human rights. this is not simply a concern of the united states. the entire world is watching and we will coordinate our assistance and accountability measures with the international community. host: president obama speaking yesterday about the situation in libya with secretary of state clinton by his side of the white house. there was this headline -- and there's this piece looking at moammar gaddafi's various roles in history. other stores in the news related to this, the u.s. and other nations stepping up libya evacuation's.

and looking at how friends in high places are turning their backs on tripoli. moammar gaddafi's friends over the years, people that worked with him financially or politically like the italian leader, distancing himself along with some other leaders. let's look at a couple of other international stores. the judge says that julian assange can be extradited. a british judge says that the wikileaks founder can be extradited to sweden over sex crimes claims. also host:, national news happening. the washington post --

host: this piece looking at what's happening in hawaii related to same-sex unions. there governor has found same- sex civil unions -- has signed same-sex of unions into law. host: finally, looking at some of the other stores in the news. from usa today, an interview with valerie jaredtt.

the president will challenge business and labor leaders today to generate ideas for creating jobs, sustaining the economic recovery, and making america more competitive. our question this morning is to unions matter? we have an e-mail from gettysburg, pennsylvania. let's hear from sue in florida. caller: thanks for taking my call. yes, unions do matter. people are forgetting the labor laws we have in place were brought by the unions. we have to respect that. i want you to know that i did work at a public school. i was not a member the union. there are very, very good teachers in our public schools.

in three of the schools that i worked at third there were probably two that should not have been in the school teaching, just because of their attitude. but people are making teachers the villains and they are not. i want parents to start reading to their children at an early age, making sure they get to school on time, making sure their homework is done, making sure that they don't take them out of school an hour early to go get their hair done. this happens a lot. the lady that called from new jersey about a firefighter that left with a disability, on union disability and is now working somewhere else, this is the exception. that is not the rule. host: let's look at a commentary -- and now from an e-mail --

next on the phone, a union member in orange county, california. caller: good morning. i like the way that you do your show. you allow people to talk. i appreciate that. i have worked in unions in california ever since i got out of the service. i was a school dropout and the unit and carpentry that i belonged to allow me to make a good wage. orange county was total union. as far as the union itself, everybody made a good wage. also, it allowed the young people like myself coming out of the service with no training, having been in korea and arizona, i got a chance to get

into carpentry. what happens now is the union's have lost so much of a part of the workforce, the young guys coming from afghanistan and iraq and getting out of the service, they really don't have a place to go anymore because now the unions have started allowing illegals to work in the trade. i know because i worked the trade 22 years and i was involved in the vocational training program and for the union in santa ana. what is happening is our unions really need to, also, straighten themselves out, just like the republican party needs to get their stuff together and stop worrying about the little people. host: let's look at some union members from the bureau of labor statistics.

host: 1 last e-mail, from seattle -- thanks for the e-mails and tweet. we will speak with the mayor of charlotte, north carolina, and from the city of -- in oklahoma. we will be right back.

>> this weekend governors will talk about how to grow their states' economies, education, and cyber security in washington for the annual winter meeting. we will have live coverage throughout the weekend on c- span. >> this weekend on "book tv" on

c-span 2, the former chief of the cia's if, but not in units -- bin laden unit. and the health industry and american culture. look for the complete schedule at our website. sign up for the alert to that id e-mail to you. >> there's a new way to get a concise review of the day's events. c-spanradio.org every weekday we take you to capitol hill, the white house, and anywhere news is happening. we will talk with the experts, politicians and journalists, as we put the day's events into perspective. the stories that matter to you the most every weekday from 5:00 to 7:00 eastern on c-span radio. listen in the washington- baltimore area and nationwide

spawn ex-im's satellite radio, or go online, c-span.org. it's also available as a iphone application. you can download a program every evening as a c-span, po dcaast. host: our guest, mayors of oklahoma city and charlotte, north carolina. thanks to both of you for being here. >> very exciting. host: we have talked about the idea of unionizing what is going on with public employee unions. how does this play out in your community? guest: from the city government perspective, our expenses are personnel-driven. we don't fund a lot of social programs. if you are asking cities to tighten their belts, you're asking cities to cut expenses, if you are talking about salaries and benefits for police officers and firefighters or

less of them peridots are decisive decisions the mayors have to make and they are no fun. guest: one of the first things i did when elected in 2009 was assemble a group of citizens to look at our budget. one of the things that they warned us about was over the next couple years our public safety plan was going to be a challenge. so we are working through those issues now. guy think that nick is right. salaries and benefits of a lion's share of how the property tax dollars are used in our area. we are paying careful attention. host: talking about the economy, other issues happening in your cities, a budget shortfalls. you can join the conversation. numbers on your screen. mayor fox is a democrat.

talk about unemployment. guest: it is hovering over 10%. it's gone down a little over the last year-and-a-half or so. if we were hard-hit by the financial-services crisis. charlotte is the second-largest banking center in the country. what also happened as a result of that is we really started looking more carefully at some of the other sectors that we have strength in, like energy and health care and other ones. what we are doing now to try to counteract the forces of unemployment is to strengthen and diversify our economy. we have duke energy which is involved in the accommodation that will create the largest energy utility in the country. that will drive smaller companies in the supply chain. we feel like energy will be a great opportunity for our future. we have to integrate hospital systems in our area and we are trying to grow the health care sector. we are trying to create long- term jobs and it will not come

overnight, but jobs that will stay around awhile. host: 10% unemployment. oklahoma city has a different picture. unemployment is about 6% from december statistics. what is the situation? guest: we are fortunate to have the lowest and plummeted in the country. we have made great strides to diversify our economy. we were very energy-driven historically. we have diversified into aviation, bio-medical sector, as well as energy. it has really helped us to weather the recession from the previous years. our economy has been released from the for the past six or seven years. we have been very fortunate. we are doing the right thing. host: the biggest news that has come from your community is the fact of the democratic national convention will be there next year. what will the implications before? ? as we get past the story of how

exciting is for opportunity to snag a major convention, what are some of the challenges? guest: this will be the first major political convention in north carolina. the last one for the democratic party was 1860 when it was in charleston. it's been a little while. we feel like we are due for a convention. i think it marks the return of the democratic party to the south. for us locally if it is a big economic development opportunities for us. it puts us on an international platform, not only as a city but as a state. the economic impact will likely be 150 million up to $200 million a year there's opportunity to expose the world to the great things north carolina has to offer. we think that it will be an opportunity that has ripple effects, many years down the road. in terms of the challenges, a i think that in this kind of economy, obviously, tampa and

charlotte both will be working hard to raise the money to do the convention. i think we will do fine there. other than that, i don't see any major challenges. host: our guests are in town right now as part of the u.s. conference of mayors meeting. join the conversation. let's go to the democrat line calling from new jersey. caller: good morning. i would hate to be holding the bag with this economic situation because it trickle- down on you guys. the conversation prior and the discussion about unions, the multinational corporations that have all the power in this country right now, they have lobbyists, they have lawyers, they have a legal system that works quite well for them, but all the working people if have are the unions. the only power that we have is in numbers. if you depend on any kind of paycheck, whether you are on social security or not, we are all in this together. hearing people from the private

sector going after people in the public sector, this is not going to help us. we have to join together to straighten this situation out, because otherwise we will be living on company dependence and purchasing our children's clothing from the company store. governor scott walker of wisconsin was going to become a thug on those peaceful people demonstrating with their children in strollers. he said that he thought about it, but felt that the political backlash would not work for him. this is despicable. he had a balanced budget when he came in there. this whole balanced budget thing is only one paragraph, three sentences that apply to the budget. the rest was giving no-bid offers to david koch and his brother to purchase their steel-

thermal heating and cooling facility. host: we will leave it there. guest: is the the situation in wisconsin is interesting. rest of us around the country are watching to see what takes place there. my experience has been that we value our public safety, union officials in oklahoma city, we value our police and firefighters and believe they should be compensated. we think they are. the average firefighter in oklahoma city makes over $70,000 and police officers make $75,000. our cost of living is 90% of the national average. keep in mind its costs the city $100,000 per officer when you start adding in the cost of the uniforms and other benefits to their retirement plans. is it? absolutely. a lot of times -- is its eighth priority?a

absolutely. when you get down to the union leadership, it's a different story. we have had disappointing results in oklahoma city when we have gone face-to-face with union leaders. guest: this union issue is part of the economic challenge we are facing. we would not have many of these difficult conversations if public budget are not being hit so hard. in north carolina, our school system has $100 million shortfall. you look at teacher layoffs and it is the same sort of dynamic. i think what behalf to keep working on is the other side of the letter, to make sure the economy starts pumping again. because that will start to increase public sector revenues. this is not going to be an easy year for anyone. i think this is going to be the toughest year for local government in probably 40 or 50 years because of the fact that there is less federal money,

less state money, and things hit the fan when they get down to the city level. host: union leaders have voiced concern about charlotte as a choice for the caps dnc convention because of non-union hotels, what is your response? guest: have said all along that a couple of things, number one, the democratic national convention is one that brings together all the constituencies in the democratic party, labour included. that is no secret. it is not a secret to us in north carolina. we would not be doing our due diligence if we did not reach out to labor and try to figure out ways to work with them as we have been trying to pull off this convention. you may be pleasantly surprised at our out reached. of zero who share our corporate

subsidies and corporate welfare. pension plans and health benefits for union workers and government workers whether they are in a union or not. is it just is economically unsustainable. i would suggest this is an opportunity to get out from under the thumb of political power of this privileged class called the unions. these folks are holding politicians hostage. they can now take this opportunity to say let's get real, economically, and cut these benefit back. more importantly, we want you when you retire to have

benefits. right now, there is no way to have benefits because the system will collapse. it is in your best interest. i want to hear about the political opportunity to change the privileges of the union workers. guest: i would say it is an uneven playing field. we would love to be able to negotiate with our unions on a level playing field. because of state law, it does seem like the unions are heavily supported by the arbitration system and what starts off as an honest conversation about negotiations turns into a situation where we cannot ever seem to get a sustainable budget going forward. when your costs are personal- driven, you have to keep them

down. we have not been able to successfully get our union leaders to see the benefits of working with us and keep expenses down going forward. if your revenue is not able to keep up with the union demands for their benefits, we have to start cutting our parks department, our contributions to animal welfare and the streets, roads, and bridges. the cost of personnel is driving cities under. we have to get better situation for our state government to be able to keep a handle on our personnel costs. host: when you entered office not long ago, there was almost a 13% unemployment rate in charlotte. how do you balance those things? guest: you have to be focused on who is the end user of our services. we do not have any -- there is

no glory in cutting things that are going to ultimately impact our ability to respond to a fire or a crime situation or to put roads in place to help our economy grow. we have to stay focused on that. some of these discussions with the labor issues and things like that -- some places across the country are laying off police officers and firefighters. if it is compromising our ability as a public sector to actually do what we are assigned to do which is to protect the public, i think that is a real problem. i think in some of these situations, we have to get to the table and work it out. host: our guests are here for the u.s. conference of mayors meeting.

from oklahoma city, okla., mick cornett spent 20 years in local television. he also serves as a trustee of the conference of mayors and serves on the advisory board and chairman of the urban economic policy committee. let's go to an independent caller in north carolina. good morning. caller: i appreciate the opportunity to speak for what i believe, probably the silent majority of the people in this country. most people in this country do not have anything to do with unions. they are the majority of the people in this country. the unions, yes, they did do a good thing in the beginning.

like a lot of people, muammar gaddafi 41, have outlived their usefulness and have become simply trying to hang onto power. host: any response? guest: i do not think the unions have outlived their usefulness but we do need help from our legislators to negotiate honestly with our employees. we have to have a sustainable model going forward. other drastic cuts are going to have to be made. i would like a level playing field when i negotiate. guest: getting back to charlotte and are public safety pay plans, what we are doing is convening a group of our city staff and our police officers and we are saying, ok, here is the problem. in a couple of years, our public

plan is going to get into a train wreck situation. how do we work through this? we do not want to lay off police officers. we want to keep recruiting people into the system. we defined the problem and we started working for the solution. but the dynamic has to change because the situation is different than it was two or three years ago. on the case by case basis, the issues will get worked through. host: what is the government doing to help or hurt job creation in your city? guest: great question. you know, we have a government sector, first of all. we have an aviation sector. there are in government jobs coming from the federal government. we do get grants. they are under the microscope and there could be significant

cuts. we also need some help going forward with internet sales tax. there is a main street fairness act and which companies that sell products over the internet are currently not paying sales tax on those products. as more and more people spend their discretionary dollars on the internet, it is hurting local governments that rely on sales tax. you have practices trending away from revenue on the city side. we are looking for some help. host: what about the stimulus funding? guest: it went to the states and its traditionally did not get to the cities. that was disappointing. there was probably some job creation that trickled into the cities. largely, the inventory in the rural areas was addressed. the stimulus money did not get to the cities.

host: what is the federal government doing to help or hurt your community? guest: one-third of the money that was spent, $787 billion, was tax cuts. another third was aid to the states. i agree that we got a trickle of that money. finally, the other third went directly to citizens through title won support for schools, food stamp assistance, and things like that. i think there was probably a significant amount of days setting back king -- amount of base that went to the citizens. i think, overall, the government has helped us sustain ourselves over the last couple of years. with the recovery act dollars

going away this year, that takes a little bit of the veil off of the states. now the state's budgets are exposed. there are going to be local impacts. host: charlotte received about $127 million last year in stimulus funds compared to oklahoma city, $1.4 million. guest: that sounds about right. guest: thank you very much. [laughter] guest: we probably needed it. host: 10% unemployment rate versus 6.1% unemployment rate. caller: thank you, c-span, for allowing us to give our comments. i have one question and one comment. as far as the unions are concerned, and the democratic party is concerned, there was a

union there. whatever the unions needed, the democrats saw that legislature was pushed through out the years, and they got it. the union's charge people dues and took that money and backed the democrats. that cycle is about to be broken now. whereou take the state's the 14 democrats have walked out -- what happens when the democrats take over, which they will? and the republicans walk out? how do you rectify that? what do you do? guest: i think it is important to keep in mind that governments can provide services not to provide jobs. -that is very important to remember.

we went to our unions and try to increase the size of our staff a year ago but it would never acquired some budget cuts on their side of the equation of about 2%. we could not get to the table with it. as a result, we wound up with fewer police officers and firefighters on the table. he would like to get some sort of reliable feedback -- you would like to get some sort of reliable feedback. host: let's move on and talk about foreclosures and some of the mortgage crisis issues. this came to our attention. when the democratic national convention goes to charlotte this year, --

this is coming to us from real- estate future foreclosure hotspot. guest: we have never as a community or as a state professed to be anything but a reflection of the country that we live and and the times that we live in. in many ways, charlotte will show itself to be an example of what is an incredibly bright with our country. the day before the dnc announced charlotte as the location, a group of philanthropists announced a grant to our school system to help the most challenging part of our school system move forward. that is a tangible example of the type of community that we live in. the foreclosure problem is an

indicator of the and plum a problem. the people who are out of work who eventually lose the capacity to pay their mortgages -- it starts running on itself. so we know that is a challenge in our community. we are starting to see signs that the economy is coming back some. host: this story looks at foreclosures in oklahoma and says oklahoma city was ranked as -- guest: we have largely been unaffected by the housing crisis. a there is a bottle of discretionary income because our salaries tend to be higher. housing prices are very low in oklahoma city.

i think that what charlotte has dawned in going this incredible city i have had the good fortune of visiting, oklahoma city is starting to realize the secret of the workforce are attracted to cities where there is a high quality of life. if you are talking about job creation, it is because we have been able to attract that talent pool. host: this tweet -- guest: is a real challenge. it will largely do it through property taxes and pay it out over several years. we have 17,000 leads of road in the city that we are responsible for. guest: we are working every day to try to make sure we are

preparing this community for success. whether it is within the context of a workforce development or other things, we are trying to move forward. i think a lost sight of what your question was. hoswe do it through property tas primarily. we also have a little bit of a sales tax, 13% of our annual budget is sales tax revenue. as the mayor pointed out, for various reasons, revenues have been down. we are back to 2004 levels with their sales tax. guest: our property taxes are low but 51% of our income comes from sales tax. as a result, it can change the way you react to retail

situations. host: the mayor of charlotte, mayor foxx, also served as a councilman and was an attorney. you still are an attorney. to a democratic caller in florida joining us. hello. good morning. caller: i have a question. for either one of the mayors. why has jobs been such a depressing problem? for african-americans -- i do not like to say african americans. i like to say descendants of slaves. for these jobs, job creation, when they are created, will there still be a depression

problem for african-americans or descendants of slaves to get a good job? because it has always been a depression problem. guest: i think the history of slavery and the history of oppression is still harming african americans here in 2011. it is very disappointing. i think it is an education issue. if you look at education in african american communities, they seem to be lower than other minority groups. we are working hard to correct it. guest: it is a significant problem. if you look at the overall on income rate, and you match it against the african american on the, rate, the african american unemployment rate is significantly higher.

if you look at youth employment, kids below the age of 24, the unemployment rate in some areas for african american youth is over 40% and sometimes 50%. so there are definitely some challenges. then you match that up against another fact which is that in some schools in our school system across the country, african american males are graduating at a 28% rate or a 30% rate. it does not take a rocket scientist to see long term there is going to be a real problem that it's worse than it is today if we do not do something. i think the mayor is exactly right, that education has to be a critical area of focus for our country. we all have to see the benefit of investing in education and

restructuring education to be child-centered. we as the mayors are talking about that all the time. in the short term, we have to fight to protect things like youth employment programs. we are going to be talking later today about funding to help cities provide these kinds of opportunities for kids. so often, i am really worried that in the short term we may see a cavalcade of budget cuts that impact children that stays with us for more than 20 years if we are not careful. guest: i think the mayor is right. the graduation rates are not what they should be. we failed in that regard. host: reflect on the budget, the c.r. that was recently passed. guest: as far as funding, we get

discretionary dollars out of washington. the funds are things that mayors can designate in our communities where the needs are. if you start cutting those, you are going to start cutting into a lot of social programs that affect a lot of people that really need the help. a 60% and cut is way too much. we are willing to tighten our belt. the idea of cutting the funds drastically is a really bad decision. host: how is your voice heard in this debate? guest: it is my opinion that we will take some cuts. i have tried to communicate on the white house level and to congress there are other ways that they can help. i think the main street fairness act, taking the loophole involving sales tax on sales over the internet, is a way to not have a negative impact on

the federal budget. host: what is your opinion of the president's proposed budget for the next fiscal year? guest: this is from the mayor's perspective, but i think we have to be less focused on the democratic and republican perspectives. this is really a pivotal moment in our country. there is less revenue in public coffers so we have to make careful choices. the choices cannot be just cut, cut, cut or spend, spend, spend. the economy has transitioned away from manufacturing. we have to get manufacturing jobs back here. we have to be exporting more goods and services out of this country. it needs to go back to the education, back to the infrastructure.

i do not think those are partisan issues. it is disappointing, quite frankly, that on some level, the president has laid out a very good case for the categories of spending that are important to the future of the country. i am hopeful that both houses of congress will be responsible. host: let's go to texas. welcome. caller: hey, nick, how are you doing this morning? i am from oklahoma city. my daddy was a former oklahoma city policeman. i just wanted to talk about the unions a little bit. i am sure you remember back in the 1970's when the police went on strike. most of your policemen out there and work two jobs for many years and a lot of that had to do with the police were not paying

enough to be a middle-class family. that is why a lot of these guys went out and started working second jobs. i know the chief had a lot to do with revolutionizing the police department, getting money in there, equipment. they bought all of their guns, uniforms, and everything else. guest: things have changed a lot. i remember back in 1970. i was in middle school at the time. we think police officers and firefighters should be well compensated, and we think they are. caller: good morning. i would like to address what the the new jersey caller said about teachers and vacations. my daughter is a teacher.

those teachers -- my daughter has never had a vacation. when she gets off from school, she works two or three jobs during the summer. during the wintertime, i would like to also address how my daughter does not have books to properly teach kids. she has to make copies. there are no copies in the school. that comes out of my daughter's pocket. i would like to also say how stores have discounts for teachers, thank god for them, because most teachers take out of their pockets for their most basic needs. it makes me angry. guest: i think this caller has made a critical point, which is that we talk about education in this country and then we hear stories about that, teachers

literally taking the shirts off their back to get the jobs done in the classroom. there are some heroic teachers out there. even as we are talking about how we restructure education and so forth, i think a change we need to make as a country is valuing teaching again, and that is compensating teachers like professionals, holding them to professional standards. i think the caller is right on point. finland -- if you are a college graduate in finland, the top 10% of graduates want to go to teach because the teachers are treated as professionals in finland. in the united states, we are getting the bottom 25% going into teaching because it is something to do. we need competition in the teaching profession.

guest: i am the son of a teacher. i will say that as far as the dollars going into education, i think teachers unions have become part of the problem. i think a lot of the philanthropy coming into public education would be coming into larger amounts. i know we are talking a lot about the first steps. that is a good example of the symbolism that a lot of people are upset about. they want the best teachers and the worst teachers moving on to new occupations predicate caller: our independent line, good morning. caller: we are talking about budgets and tightening our belts. i have a brother who has worked as a township supervisor for 18 years. in that time, he has not taken one raise it. before we start going after

unions, i think it is time that the elected officials, be they legislators, governors, mayors, councilmen, congressman, the president, start talking about what kind of cuts they are going to take. i recently joined in on an e- mail. a congressman refused the medical provided for him. guest: i received a salary of $124,000 a year. we voted to cut that. those cuts did not take place. i do not necessarily think the people who work in congress are overpaid. they typically have two homes, one in the district and -- one in their district and one in

washington, d.c. i admire the people who are willing to run for congress and served up here in washington. guest: i understand the callers sentiment. i have refused to pay increases in the past. i think it is one of these times where we all have to be really careful to focus on the right kind of restructuring for the country. one of the things that we have to think about is not just ourselves but people who may follow us in these roles and in other parts of the country. we want to make sure there are people who come along that are interested and are energized and capable of doing even a better job. guest: i do think week in oklahoma city we underpay our non-uniformed employees. we talk about our employees who

i wish we had more money to pay higher salaries. typically, there is not enough money left over for the others. host: in the washington post this morning -- what is your reaction to this development? guest: i am not sure what it

means other than they are going to finally get back in session and ultimately have a vote on this. i assume that everyone is satisfied with their position. i have no idea what that means in terms of the final outcome. guest: it sounds like they could not go on as they were. it sounds like they have been making concessions on both sides. caller: i am very happy to have this forum to speak. i have a few points that i would like to touch on. in my opinion, this is an all- out classwork. there is a divide and conquer strategy taking place. you are taking firefighters and police and pitting them against teachers. this is going to trickle down until there is no one else.

we will end up being slaves again. people are calling in -- my last paycheck, i had $800 in taxes taken out. tax dollars that i pay for politicians. as a teacher, and still have to live on a budget. i wish people would add that to the conversation. we pay taxes. this country has a history of institutionalizing favoritism. this is never discussed. people do not realize the government has historically hired women and minorities that the public sector has excluded from those been used. now that the private sector -- there is a witch hunt for government workers. it is starting to dividing conquered.

guest: i encourage anyone who is not happy with the situation to start their own business. a foundation recently named best and most entrepreneurial city in the country. i would like to think that is fuelling our job growth. as much as i agree with many of the callers this morning, i think fundamentally these are tough times. i think the last thing i would say on the subject is that going forward, i think the union leadership is going to have to realize that we have to balance our budgets. every year, we have to balance our budget. if revenue is down, compensation and our expenses are going to have to go down as well. i do agree that we are having a disappearing middle class. i think that is regrettable. i think we need to protect the

middle-class. guest: i think one of the really difficult question for everybody who is in an elected office right now -- what do you keep? what do you keep on the table? what is critical? what has to be done to get the country moving forward? i am not so short it is as much of an issue of class warfare as much as it is different views of what it meant to cut something out of government. whether you are talking about a youth employment program, that may be critical to a young person for an opportunity, but for someone else, it may not be as critical. as a country, we have some reckoning to do on this issue of education and how we are treating our young people right now. i think from my vantage point, the things that are critical and

are making sure we are making critical investments in education. that is the only way our economy is going to regenerate itself over the next 20 years. if we reduce expenditures and leave the structure of education exactly as it is, we are going to be stuck in neutral as a country. host: thank you for being here today. both of our guests are here today for the conference of mayors happening in washington, d.c. coming up this morning, we will talk about the costs of prisons on state budgets. after the break, foreclosures and housing market. >> here are some of the latest headlines. due to high waves in the mediterranean sea, hundreds of

americans remain stranded in the tripoli aboard a ferry. the craft has so far depend on the will to move. muammar gaddafi continues to lose to the courts. the latest defection comes from one of his cousins. the relative says the regime has engaged in grave violations to human-rights and international laws. the president's cousin has defected to egypt. a government administrator says unidentified gunmen in pakistan have attacked two nato oil tankers that were traveling to afghanistan. he says they were attacked today as they were heading to the -- to a border town. that town is one of the main crossing point for nato supplies. word just in that wisconsin

senators are dispatching the state patrol to some of the homes of multiple democratic senators to bring them back. those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> this weekend on c-span3, programs on the civil war including the use of espionage between the north and south and the effects on the war's outcome. we will get a behind-the-scenes look at president ford's china trip. for the complete we can schedule, go to c- span.org/history. book, "abraham lincoln," is a unique perspective on abraham lincoln from his early years as a springfield lawyer to his presidency during one of the nation's most troubling times. while supplies last, publishers

are offering c-span viewers the hardcover edition for a special price of $5 plus shipping and handling. be sure to use the promo code at checkout. >> "washington journal" continues. host: our guest is the director of public affairs. welcome. what is your organization's mission? guest: we work with low income people with housing issues and foreclosures. a we work with families with their incomes, expenses, and would be a sustainable resolution for them going forward. we also work with the servicers. host: talk us through when someone is facing foreclosure.

what do you do? guest: first, step one would be to contact a housing counselor. and there is a whole network of counselors, approved housing counselors. it is helpful to have somebody who knows what they are doing in the process. but what we need to do is see what your income is, document it, see what your hardship case is, when you are paying on your mortgage, and would be an affordable payment plan. we then work with putting together a package that would go to a mortgage servicer that has your mortgage. then we would work out the details. sometimes, the servicer comes back with a proposal that you would say is probably not affordable. we would send that along to senior managers.

host: to talk to our guest, -- what is the toughest thing that someone is contending with when facing a foreclosure? guest: one of the worst things is the process is very backed up and there are a lot of delays. is notrvicing industry properly staffed and is not have the adequate equipment to really address the problem. that means some cases can take six months, 12 months, 17 months to get a resolution. that is a very difficult problem

that tortures the system. there has been a series of triggers of how people got into foreclosures. when we saw this crisis or rise, they were people who got bad loans. that meant they got a low interest rate for the first two or three years, and then suddenly it jumps. suddenly, people have a loan that they cannot afford. now, it is much more people who have reduced income or unemployment. those are the challenges that people are working through. you need to have a lower interest rate or a lower mortgage payment to keep you in the house. a host: the loan loss prevention program -- how is that being used right now? guest: people can come into as a client and go to our website and

apply online or you can call our 1-800 number. then, you can get linked up with a counselor. you can come into one of our offices or do this over the telephone or on the internet. it is high the user-friendly in the sense that you consummate of your documents through faxing or through scanning. it is really up to you. we do have the range to be a national program are on the country. host: the services are? guest: they are freed. we have a mix of foundation, a government, and private-sector funding. host: let's hear from rich this morning. caller: good morning. and i lost my home three years ago because of the position that i lost.

i have a foreclosure on my credit record. i am 54 years old. i will have my credit cleaned up when i am close to 64. i will try to get a 30-year loan. i am curious where i stand of what my future might be of ever owning a home again guest: it is a difficult problem in the future, there may be a division in how they look at people who have had foreclosures in the past. for some people, or they have had a good payment history and a very explainable incident like loss of job triggering the foreclosure, there might be some programs that might be available to people later on. this is not in place now. this is an area we have tried to encourage thinking on.

host: let's go to las vegas, nev., where it joey joins us on the republicans line. good morning. caller: good morning. i am curious how countrywide and bank of america -- i had a house for 12 years. i was never late, not even one minute on a mortgage payment. when the housing market busted, i called them up and i said can you work with me because i do not want to pay any less money. my mortgage was $289 a month. i owed 289 on my house. i did not want to pay 286.

i wanted to pay to wanted 89. -- i wanted to pay 289. i was paying interest only for over a year and a half. they said they cannot do it. i said if i do not hear from you by friday, i am not making any more payments. i never heard from them on friday but i still made the market payments. i am on my credit card with bank of america and my mortgage i am up to date. about a week and a half later, my next-door neighbor whose house is worth more than mine put a foreclosure signed up and you were asking for $165,000. that house is worth more than mine. i love my house.

i called them up and i said please do not make me lose my house. i will pay you the mortgage. just make it come off the principal. they told me i could not do it. i ended up stopping to pay the mortgage. they sold the house two years later for $71,000. from let's get a response our guest. guest: this is the problem that is out there. you are in nevada which is one of the hardest-hit states. this is clearly a problem, that in foreclosure, if you go through foreclosure, it is much more expensive than it is fixing the loan or giving people and modification. it is very unusual that any of

these loans -- that the investor would lose anywhere near the amount of money lost with a foreclosure sale. this is exactly the problem, the kind of thing that we need to solve it. host: what kind of changes have you seen because of this rash of foreclosures? guest: we used to be an organization helping people buy houses with good, reliable mortgages, all of the kind of stuff you wanted. we have tried to retrain our entire staff to do foreclosure counseling. some of the phones were ringing off the hawks, demand was incredible. this hit the whole industry. there is a huge need for people to provide counseling services, to work with families, and to help them get through this. host: how many individuals do you help with mortgages

annually? guest: also, our business on the mortgage side was very small. we worked with 65,000 families in the last two years at various stages of their foreclosure. host: matt from new york, new york, good morning. caller: i have to say thank you for letting me on. i feel like you are going to be able to help so many people. last year, maybe two years ago, i have my house foreclosed on. now, a great man -- was his name? he is the man. he is helping all of these people un-4 close their houses. i have to say thank you. host: are you hearing stories

about local community leaders reaching out and trying to help people pay off their principal to get back on their feet? guest: only a little bit. i would like to know more about that particular situation. there is a flip side of this. we call them loan modification scams. that is people who are saying they can fix your loan modification. they often charge a thousand dollars, $2,000, $3,000 fee, and this turns out to be not a very good deal. a good thing about the counseling agencies is they do not charge for doing this work and provide excellent service. they are well trained and have excellent experience. that is very helpful. there is a whole business out there of taking it deeds over for a while.

those turned up to be very bad deals. i do not know what the gentleman was referring to. host: have you had experiences with -- if you have had experiences dealing with foreclosures, you can call -- to an independent caller in misery. -- in missouri. caller: they are getting ready to foreclose on my house. these people say they can help you and all this, get a lower mortgage rate and everything. you know, they are talking and they do not help anybody. i have called quite a few companies, fha and hud. when i bought the house three

years ago here, termites were eating up the walls. and the realty company said they could never help me. they said you bought it, it is yours. that is your problem. hey, you go to a lawyer, he says you have to file bankruptcy and all this. they do not want to help you lower your mortgage. i have called the mortgage company that i got my mortgage through, and they tell you we will take it down to 295. i am paying almost $400 a month. the mortgage companies tell you

to send paperwork back to them and it will lower your mortgage. they will call you back. all you get are answering machines. leave a message, and it will call you right back. host: let's get a response from our guest. guest: absolutely. it is a problem with the mortgage industry right now. they are unresponsive and do not have anywhere near the capacity to deal with this. it your experience is replicated by tens of thousands of people all across the united states. it is why we are recommending people work with housing counselors. this system is not prepared to handle the amount of volume that is there. host: sal writes on twitter -- from look at the story

"the hill" -- what is your take on the program? guest: is an interesting program. there is a huge plus. beforehand, when people were offered mortgage resolutions, they were offered payment resolutions. what is the offer is to make your mortgage payment and pay an additional amount on it.

if you cannot make the first amount of the payment, how are you going to make everything including the payment agreement? that did not work. the second offer was keeping the pavement at the same or even higher amounts. these were not resolutions that worked very well for people. the program set a baseline, 31% of your household income should be going to a mortgage payment. it set some standards and rules. it helped standardize the business and the kinds of resolutions that people got. that was a very big plus. on the downside, the program is a voluntary program and enforcement has not been very strong. there are not that many enforcement tools on it. that is a problem. one of the clearest rules in the program is you cannot proceed with a foreclosure unless it is been checked out to see if it

can qualify for a modification. we are seeing more cases where instead of waiting until a foreclosure, the foreclosure proceedings at the same time. sometimes the foreclosure coast through and we have to get it rescinded. things like that should absolutely never happen are continuing in the program. it is a good start but there is more that needs to be done. we need principal reduction. when the resolutions for the life of the loan, not just -- we need resolutions for the life of the loan, not just for five years. it is a starting place that is been very helpful for some people. part of the blame goes to the servicers who were not staffed to handle the kinds of volume of this work. host: a story on the huffington post says it --

if they cannot come up with that money, they could lose their house to foreclosure even if they never miss a payment applying to the program. have you seen that happen? guest: absolutely. this was a terrible situation. suddenly, they owe a this is a chunk of money and do not have the money for it. now they are triggered into foreclosure. if they do not qualify for the

program, servicers should be offering them another kind of loan modification that they might qualify for. if not, compensate them for the gaps so they do not lose the house. foreclosure is the most expensive solution for this. obviously, it is the one that the family loses the most on. host: we talk about some of the republican critics of the program. the huffington post says that a writer of a "firedog" is a longtime critic of the program and says it has been very damaging. he says the government ruined its own brand -- what we do like to see done to improve the program? guest: the staffing and the

efficiency needs to be done much more quickly and effectively. the work that housing counselors do ought to be taken at face value and allowed to be used to quickly get deals resolved. i think we're like to see resolutions that have principle reductions as a part of the solution. we will it's like to see the resolutions for a larger part of the loan. one of the larger issues is a round reduced hours and unemployment. some people who get their resolution are finding all so that the program is one bite of the system now. if your income has changed, to not in default of your own, we think you should be able to reopen the modification and get a new one done. it was tenderly done in the

industry before this. -- it was a standard done in the industry before this. host: good morning. go ahead and turn down your tv. russell -- >> caller: i got it. i have a question. do these mortgage companies give you more than 12 hours notice to move you out? that is my question. is there a law that protects you from that? " have you had experience with this? -- host: have you had experience with this? caller: yes, i have. i got a call at 9:00.

[unintelligible] they got a crew out there to move up my stuff in the middle of the street. i do not think that is right. guest: that is a very frustrating situation. it sounds like the foreclosure has already gone through. it is a very frustrating process and it has to do with state law. it is not really an issue that we could control. it just seems like everything should be done to protect the rights of people after they have been in a foreclosure bush should be able to keep the house for a certain period of time to have an appropriate transition. host: is there anything organization can do for folks like roscoe who may be in the final throes of foreclosure? guest: there are a few things.

we would immediately a look at what their situation was on their mortgage. we have gotten a few mortgages rescinded. they were inappropriately foreclosed upon. we have been able to reverse some of them. it is hard and a big lift. some mortgage servicers have keys for cash program which they would give you money, say $1,500, to move if you move out without having to go through the complete eviction in california there are some protections for people to protect them after the foreclosure and they are treated more as a net tenant. that's a big help to people in the transition. there's been talk about having programs where people can be tenants for while in their house so that it would not be vacant.

when houses are vacant for a while, they can be vandalized and the property appliances will be taken out and that reduces the value. host: bruce dorpalen, a website is on the screen. now let's go to the republican line. joe, hi. caller: there are people in mexico losing their houses for $500 that they owe on the house. i thought the u.s. government could pay $500 or less and just pay off these houses. up to pick $5,000 even, just pay off these houses and save as

many houses as we can. it should not cost very much money, to tell you the truth. we could save a lot of houses. thank you. guest: it is surprising that some of these loans are relatively small balances and people struggling. i don't know if that of the situation you are talking about. it is a relatively small resolution. because the whole system is built on foreclosures and moving forward to bring houses to foreclosure, sometimes things makes no sense whatsoever for someone to lose the house for a relatively small amount of money. that is extremely frustrating. host: foreclosure filings grew 1% in january from the prior month in december. they've been down 17% from the year before. the obama administration, what is it doing mount? guest: we think there's more that can be done. one of the issues -- we are very hopeful that the attorney

general will have a place where there is an opportunity for real movement, where we hope they will address issues like principal reduction and we will get greater efficiency for the servicing so that these resolutions happen more quickly and they incorporate housing counseling more generously into the program. we have a big opportunity. the announcement in today's wall street journal about an initiative that the administration is doing to coordinate the regulatory agencies and a task force with the idea of getting principal reductions and paying those out as a penalty charged to the banks. that would be a big step forward. there is one really excellent piece and that came out of legislation that was a billion dollars set-aside for helping unemployed people in a loan program to get them through the next two years. a number of community organizations, the unemployment

project, and others, helped to work to get this passed. barney frank and others were champions. this covers 32 states and is an excellent program. it has the ability for unemployed people to get a loan to get them through this time and when they get back to paying your mortgage full time, it is forgivable over time. this is an exciting program. it continues to be set up as a program rather than actually being implemented. we hope it hits the ground soon because it's very important to people. host: the obama administration raided its own efforts and the efforts to stabilize the housing market and help homeowners in a report said came out last month. things that include tax credits for home buyers, neighborhood

stabilization, community development, mortgage modification and refinancing, housing counseling. is this a fair report? do you find there was enough that the administration pointed to that made sense and did they leave some things out? guest: they have been in a tough situation working hard to make things work. things that they mentioned here are accurate and real. we think that there's more that needs to be done in the housing market to stabilize the housing market, especially in the foreclosure field. we appreciate that there has been a lot of commitment from the administration court's finding housing counseling. unfortunately, the funding is not near close enough to what the demand is. all housing counseling agencies around the country aren't stretched in terms of resources in terms of being able to deal with demand. there is more we would like to see. we would like to see an increased hamp program that

really does principal reduction handpick we would like to see those servicers make resolutions quickly. host: boston, massachusetts, shot on the democrat line. caller: thank you so much for all the work you are doing and thank you. this is a very painful and frustrating subjects. i had a personal experience where i lost the old family house. i came off of the deed and my brother never quit-claim to be back on to the deed -- never quick-claimed me back on to the deed. my brother was using the house as an atm machine and he had

invested in other properties, flipping them around, so to speak. they were all foreclosed on one after the other. so as painful as it is, of course you have to move on. and i have, but i don't think people like this should be able to go to your non-profit and be counseled and assisted. guest: very good. we completely agree with you. we don't deal with investment properties or second houses. it's only the primary residence where someone lives. this whole issue of speculator is flipping properties and inflating the prices are part of the problem. for years we have tried to close this and challenge it. there's been some good work that the faa did over the years. this is an ongoing problem.

treating housing as an investment rather than a life resource is really one of the things that inflated property values across the country. host: the states with the highest foreclosure rates are nevada, arizona, california, florida, and i don't. that comes to us from realtytrac. let's go to wisconsin, joe. caller: hello. host: we are talking about foreclosures. caller: all wanted to find out why mortgage companies, i have dealt equipment gmac mortgage and i have tried for the last year to get them refinance and lower my payments. i bought a small business and ran it for two years and there was a fire and we went bankrupt. i cannot make the $1,600 per month payment. my wife and i right now a year

later have worked four different jobs. these people will not deal with us. i don't understand why. guest: well, there are a variety of situations that could be speaking to this. if you are in bankruptcy, is best to let the bankruptcy attorney tried to be involved with this. unfortunately, bankruptcy laws currently do not allow you to touch the first position mortgage, the motives that you are talking about, i assume. we had hoped congress would fix this, but it did not get fixed. of all the things that bankruptcy could be effective on cow, the foreclosure crisis, this legislation would have been the ideal solution for you. you can go to a hud counseling agency or my agency or others. they can go to gmac and say, listen, we need to work with the

bankruptcy attorney to moderate alone. that's a tool that can be done, but it would not be enforced by the court, it would be something worked out with the housing agency. you are in a funny place because the servicing industry, when someone is in bankruptcy, tends not to deal with the family around a mortgage, because the bankruptcy situation, we have been able to get around that in many cases, but we would be glad to look at the case, but i understand a problem. host: there's a comment from twitter. one of our callers said that his brother was using the house as an atm machine. what about personal responsibility and having mortgages and taking out a second mortgage, reaching beyond your means? is that changing now as people have gotten more educated about the ramifications? guest: we see that as a fairly

unusual situation, where people are using the house as an atm machine. i understand it happens. generally the people that come to us are much more people that this is their first house for their family house or they have been in it for awhile and struggling to put the pieces together, they are not using it as an investment, it is really a family resources, a family refuge. they tend to think of the house not as an investment but as a place that they can own for their family and pass on to their children. we are seeing that people are being much more frugal about things. people are tightening their belts all through society. our counselors work through people's budgets and we are seeing that they are working with a much thinner budgets than they used to be. people have already canceled cable tv and other things that you do to reduce costs. a lot of people are moving forward on that.

the economic reality with more reduced work hours, with a spouse being laid off, these kinds of things puts pressure on people household budgets, something we have to get everybody through the next three years. in 2008 there were 2.3 million home foreclosures. next year it was 2.8 million. host: atlanta, georgia, jim, republican. caller: thank you. and bruce, thanks for the work that your firm does. i am a former ceo of several significant mortgage companies throughout the united states, all of which were national. i have now retired from that position. i am proud of many of the excellent loans that we made and i am deeply saddened by some of the bad loans that we made through the years, terrible loans that have caused much of

this problem. what i want to say is, to the person out there listening, the person losing their house, they need to work with housing counselors like people from your agency, because this is or a process that is immensely frustrating, but there are rules. if you properly learn the rules, except for the fact that you will be frustrated through the process, but learn the rules and have it go hand and hand with the various agencies, with the housing counselors. go through the process. many times it will be successful. i have seen tens of thousands of modified loans, a short loans, people not falling through the cracks and being left homeless -- assured loans, because of the fine work of people like you.

there was a call or you had earlier, age 54, that he was trying to get his credit corrected after 10 years after his house was taken in order for him to now get another loan, i am speaking to you. there are agencies out there that have moneys available to put people who have been bankrupted and have had foreclosure after a two-year look-see program, you are available to for a home loan through specified programs. bankers like myself help to put because wepool, have done some bad kings in getting people into houses that should not have. so that money is available. i want you to search it out. my final point is, if you are losing your house, you are banging your head against a

wall, call your state or federal congressperson, talk to the person in the office that is assigned to constituent services. they will helped you with a dental plan like someone from the affordable housing centers of america, who deal with the problems that are coming your way. they are solvable and these folks are experts. i am completely not affiliated. thanks for your work, bruce. guest: what a good thing to say. i appreciate the comments you made. i think we are really all struggling to try to get through this process and try to work with people to help them recover from the foreclosure prices and get them sustainable loans. i think what the caller was referencing the are those kinds of programs. there's a lot of housing counselors that have been working hard around the u.s. for this to try to make this work for people. host: this is some economic

news. host: bruce dorpalen, thank you so much for joining us this morning. guest: it was terrific. i'm very glad and i appreciate the calls as well. host: the website is on the screen. coming up, the cost of prison to state budgets. first, a news update from c-span radio. >> where number is just in in addition to the unemployment figures, the commerce department says that orders for durable goods excluding transportation fell by more than 3% last month. that is the biggest drop since january of 2009.

from the los angeles times, the defense department is set to announce today who will be awarded a $35 billion contract to build a new military fuelling tanker. in the running are going and its competitor, a division of airbus. the pentagon has twice awarded the contractor for 10-year period only to see its decision overturned amid accusations of underhanded politics and discriminatory rulemaking. aviation analysts say that it is the most solidified nightmare ever to hit the defense budget and that it's been going on so long that it is hard to imagine we are nearing the end. law-enforcement officials across the country are conducting a nationwide sweep of suspected members of mexican drug cartels working in the united states. dea working with immigration and customs enforcement says it is a direct response to the fabric 15

shooting death of an ice agent in mexico. by this morning, agents have seized more than $4.5 million in cash and arrested more than 60 people. those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> it is critically important that the house moved this to avoid a government shutdown. >> we all have a responsibility to make sure that there is no government shutdown. >> with concerned about possible government shutdown, see what was said when the federal government shut down in 1995, online at a c-span video library, with every program since 1987. search, watch, clip, and share, any time. it is washington nyou way. this c-span book of abraham lincoln is a contemporary perspective on mr. lincoln from

$56 and journalists from his early years as a springfield lawyer to his presidency during one of our nation's most troubled times to his relevance today. publishers are offering c-span viewers the hardcover edition for the special price of $5 plus shipping and handling. go to c-span.org/books and click on the abraham lincoln book and be sure to use the promo code at checkout. >> washington journal continues. host: mike thompson is with the council of state governments. he is the center director. why our presence is so expensive and what is keeping it that way? guest: corrections costs have been going up significantly over the last several years. frankly because we keep incarcerating more and more people. today, for example, can the state of michigan, one out of every the people -- one out of every three people that works for the state worked for the department of corrections.

these are institutions that are a secure and we need to protect the public. we need to make sure there is a severe remembered h -- we need to make sure there is a secure perimeter. they are expensive to build and expensive to operate. host: beyond the basic infrastructure of keeping prisoners inside and keeping them out of the public, what are the other costs? we are talking about caring for people and benefits. guest: corrections has done a fantastic job over the years of limiting their costs. more and more, corrections is doing everything they can to simply warehouses people. the costs are driven primarily by personnel, making sure that you have officers in the housing units supervising people, making sure you have people on the perimeter of maintaining the security of the institution, providing milk care services. prison and jail is one of the only places in the country that you have a constitutional right to health care.

providing that is expensive. the overriding costs are the health care services behind walls. host: let's look get this piece from earlier this month. one of every 15 state dollars is spent on corrections in this country. and it has this pullout that it costs $44,000 to incarcerate a prisoner for one year in california. nearly a same price as a year at harvard university with room and board. guest: many state officials are frustrated that they spend significantly more in many states now on their corrections system than their entire higher

education system. that is something that is very frustrating for many state officials. we call this but pacman state budget, which is eating into other priorities for state officials. the state of michigan, according one quarter of state officials worked for the -- one third of state employees worked for the corrections department. the states are trying to balance their budgets. it is one of the second fastest growing line items in state budgets. host: $50 billion spent annually by states nationwide. the cost of paying for a parolee bursas an inmate is very

big. $7 vs $78. guest: you have people incarcerated and you go from a very secure facility, which is expensive to operate. i want to make clear that these systems are running as efficiently as they possibly can. what is driving the cost of these systems to is the number of people that are incarcerated. one out of every 100 adults today is in prison or jail. one of every 31 people under correctional supervision on any given day. they spend a lot of money to lock them up and then they go to the streets and we spend far less to provide them the community supervision they need. host: mike thompson is our guest. let's hear from liz, a democratic caller in texas. caller: i am curious as to the impact of this private prison system versus the state prison system.

pat i am, also, curious as to the impact on state run prisons versus private prisons. because i have a very -- i am very nervous about there being a financial incentive to incarcerate people. if you understand where i am going with the private prisons. as far as prison costs on state budgets, i wanted to know how many of those are for minor offenses, things that can be otherwise dealt wickes. thanks for your time. guest: thanks for your call. to answer the first part, many states are looking at privatizing certain functions in the operation of their prisons. you'll have corrections with privatizing health care services and food services. some states are contracting with private companies to run entire prison systems. -- to run entire presence, rather. different states have privatized

part of their corrections system. the savings that can be generated from that really varies. a lot of states affected, the savings are not as dramatic as they had hoped. many states that probably will not be privatizing much more than they already are. like the people up for minor offenses to, i mentioned the extraordinary percentage of people in prison or in jail on any given day. one out of every 100 adults. one out of every 30 are under correctional supervision. when states look tax who they are locking up -- when states are looking at who they are locking up, they notice this. one out of every two people is being incarcerated within three years of their release. 50% of the time, that is for a

violation of a condition of release. a lot of people want to see how we can do better in helping those people succeed in the community. in many states, you have people going into prison for a very short amount of time, put back into the community and, where housed. -- warehoused. ohio puts people in prison for nine months for low-level drug crimes. many of them have drug problems and don't receive treatment. they are simply put into a crowded prison system, then they are put back on the street with no supervision whatsoever oftentimes. what type of public safety are we getting for simply turning those people through the system for relatively short time without doing anything that would change their criminal behaviors? host: when trying to combat recidivism, it sounds like it can be an added expense if you are trying to truly reform someone, help give them more opportunity for when they get

back outside. that might be a bigger cost at the outset versus the idea of where house -- warehousing. guest: if we are going to do something about prison and jail growth in this country, we have to do something about recidivism rates. given how much states and counties are spending on their corrections systems, if we're going to make progress on expenditures, they have to get better success rates from people coming out of prison and jail. that means providing some services that prepare the people for release before they get out and help them succeed once they are in the community. host: a recent story states --

guest: what is impressive about michigan has done is they've taken some of those savings that they have generated by actually closing prison facilities and actually read-invested some of those savings into some of the strategies you are talking about. -- reinvested. there is costs associated with it, but the cost of building and operating a prison is far more expensive. you cannot put a price on public safety. what we really want to see more

than anything else is reduced crime. what we are talking about the making sure that these people have jobs when they come into the community is that we address the substance abuse and mental health needs. we are talking about less crime. host: gary is on the republican line from ohio. caller: hi, i have thought about this quite a bit. if it was run like a self- sustained farm where they grow they doing they eatm, their own cleaning, they do their own cooking, everything, they are self-sufficient, that would have to cut some of the expense. $28,000 a year is ridiculous. or else -- or set them up the

way -- if our servicemen can camp outside like in the infantry or the artillery or in tanks and stuff like that, they spend over six months every year outside. and these people, they don't all they need to do is work and sustain their own self while they are in jail. like you talked about, these outfits that are promoting putting people in jail, that one in pennsylvania and in new york, these are basically kids they are messing with. our present system is sickening. host: what you think about his idea? guest: there's a lot of frustration about how much it

costs to run prisons in this country. it seems very appealing to sort of imitate what folks see when they see a tent city in phoenix and say why can we do that just with more people? it is challenging on a number of levels. when you have a minimum security inmates, these camps where you have farms that you are talking corrections systems do that as much as they can. when you are talking about a maximum security prison, putting them in a tent city is not feasible and it is not saved for the people who are incarcerated and is considered unconstitutional from the federal court system perspective. furthermore, you are dealing with new york state, a lot of these prisons are on the canadian border. these facilities need to be heateed. this is a real practical challenge that the correctional administrators are running into. again, you speak with

corrections administrators, they have adopted do to make sure these people are incapacitated and the public is safe from them. also need to run safe and secure facilities. at the end of the day that is an expensive proposition. they are doing it about as cheaply as they possibly can. it is astonishing to see how many inmates are stacked high in double or triple bonds, in large dormitories with one officer for every 200 or 300 inmates. that is a scary job for a lot of people. i don't think a corrections systems can run any meaner than they already are. ho-- any leaner. host: what about giving prisoners a chance to get away from the lifestyle they are used to, getting away from the tv and the jail and have them experience outdoors, provide for themselves, do farming and things like that, who is doing a -- doing that?

guest: an idle mind is the devil's workshop. it is important to keep folks active while incarcerated. people in it is incredibly important for them to receive job training while incarcerated. the majority of people who need that don't get it while incarcerated. why not, because we want to keep the cost as low as possible while these people are locked up. there is far more idleness that people would like because some of these programs do cost money. in order to make sure that you can keep pace with the growth of the prisons and jails and build and operate more prisons and jails, we need to strip whatever programs are behind the walls. so you end up with a prison and jail system that is even less likely to change inmates' behavior appear that is frustrating for taxpayers and elected officials. host: let's go to detroit, michigan. caller: good morning. you have taken a lot of my

thunder. you have excellent comments this morning. i would like to speak from a party as i have spent time in michigan prisons. i've been out since october of 2007. the program that you spoke about, it is not generated jobs for people, unfortunately. i've had 50 years' experience in information technology but i cannot get a job because of my history. i've tried to get jobs anywhere from mcdonald's to grocery stores. in michigan, it is not translated into jobs for us. i was not involved in that particular program, but from what i understand, most of the jobs that they basically put you in are low-level jobs, which is great for many people. but one thing that i think you already mentioned was the revolving door. what we really need to do, the training is very important, but we also have to focus on what got them there in the first place. basically changing the prisoner

mind-set. once i get out, i am going back into business. that is something like selling drugs or whatever. that is what really need to do in this society is change the prisoners mind-set to stop the revolving door. host: let's get a response. guest: i cannot agree more. i go back to the previous caller as well. we spoke about why can we make sure these folks are doing productive things while they are incarcerated and the things that will trace their behavior? that is the direction congress is trying to do, the passage of the second chance act which president bush signed into law a couple years ago, which congress provided funding for and the obama administration is continuing to make a priority. we have seen leaders from the federal government, republicans and democrats alike, saying that we need to do the things the caller was talking about, to change the behavior of people in the criminal justice system. host: this is a comment from twitter.

let's go to a republican in florida, good morning, doug. caller: good morning. just a few things from the outside looking in. there are over 2 million people in jail right now, that's more than russia and china -- over 2 billion people. you said it cost $50,000 to put someone in prison or $50,000 to put them in college. it appears that you have about 20% of people in prison that are violent criminals and the rest are illegal pillion or non- violent people. you could put 80% of those prisoners in college for $50,000 as opposed to putting them in jail for $50,000 per person.

at 25 years, someone caught with a crack rock, that's a 25-year mandatory minimum, after that he gets caught with having cracked rocks, $1.5 million to incarcerate a batsman who got caught with five cracked rocks. we should deport any illegals that are incarcerated presently appear that is 50% of people in jail. release the non-violent individuals. at its 30% out. keep the violent individuals in their who are murderers and rapists and pedophiles and things of that nature. keep them in there. 80% of the people in jail right now, that takes them out. host: let's get a response. guest: it is enormously frustrating for taxpayers and elected officials that we have

prisons and jails being used to detain people here illegally who have committed crimes. the percentage is significantly lower than what the caller stated, but that said, the typically the holdup is the federal government processing these people. states and local are doing everything they can to expedite the return of some of these folks back to the countries they came from. in some cases there is concern that if you release them, they will be back across the border pretty quickly. when someone has committed a serious crime, you have policy makers decided it's more important person do their time. the issue of illegal aliens becomes complicated quickly. the other point about this aggregating the population and better understand who they are and what the likelihood of , is what we'ds

like to see legislators talk about across the country. these are multibillion-dollar agencies in larger states. they have research capacity that is potentially 0. why don't they have that capacity? it is a system that is curiously doing everything it can to make sure it is incapacitating this population and cutting expenses so they no longer have the infrastructure to analyze who is in their system and who is recidivising. the chairman of the provisions committee for the department of justice and congressman together with other leaders have put some money aside for the justice reinvestment strategy, working with a charitable trust to help states analyze who is going to prison, how long, and what strategy they might employ to get better outcomes. as we look at the data, we see opportunities to increase public safety and spend less money.

host: the council of state governments justice center director, mike thompson with us. the nation's prison population has increased more than 700% in the past four decades. states spend up to pin $2 billion every year on prison budgets. on twitter there is a conversation going on. what's your reaction? guest: unfortunately, we hear many incidents of people with mental illness. after many years of struggling with that person, they feel the only place they can turn to in order to get that person the care that they need is the criminal-justice system. is the only system open 24-7 with a no-refusal policy.

when we talk about mental health, we know today it is the los angeles county jail is this country's largest mental health hospital. once people with mental illness find themselves in prison or jail, their condition frequently deteriorates. although they get the mental health treatment they need, because they have a constitutional right to it while incarcerated, it is not the ideal setting for a person with mental illness. oftentimes, initially their mental illness is untraded, so these folks act out and they are often involved in altercations with inmates and staff members, which increases the length of their sentence. when they return to the community, is frequently with a 15-day supply of a medication. and an appointment list is given to them for follow-up. they are released with a bus ticket on a street corner. we have made significant investments in treating that

person while incarcerated, but we have not the best position that person to succeed when they are back into the community. host: to barbara on the line. caller: i have had personal experience with people coming out of prison. one of them has been my nephew. he had everything going for him when he got out except for he was too stubborn to tell the authorities who gave him the drugs to pass. we finally cracked the case. the point that i am trying to get across that makes me very frustrated is that i have helped at least 10 other people. we had a small business. they got out of tethers and they could get on the bus. [unintelligible]

they had a wonderful program going. only one that i had working at my place made the system, because they did not want to be ordered around. i think that they need somebody to say -- boot camp or a work camp or something or whatever to make the idea that after 18 years of age to 30 when they cannot seem to make up their mind to being obedient, work it off and be productive in society. we cannot all makes $300,000 throwing a basketball or working as a congressman. we have to take jobs that are $5 or $7 an hour. guest: i agree with the comment that we have a lot of people coming out of prison and jail

and they need to really change their behavior and adopt a new approach to life, yet they don't seem to want to do that. one of the things that was really interesting about a report that congressman wolfe from virginia together with another congressman commissioned from the national experts across the country, they wanted to know what -- zero in on strategies that would reduce recidivism. so one of the first findings was to focus on resources for the people at greatest risk of -- greatest risk of offending again. they tend to be younger people and they tend to be disconnected from family and they pop are also people than a not necessarily been living in the same place, who don't have a job to reduce our risk factors

that the criminal justice system is starting to really make sure that we are targeting our resources on the people most likely to offend again during this is something the system was not doing before. we were using more gut instincts in terms of how to use resources. the insurance industry would never think of doing that. now we're being more systematic or at least we are trying to be. we tried to take the very few resources and concentrate them on the kinds of people the caller was talking about, because those are the types of people that behavior has to change if we are going to decrease crime and cut the cost of incarceration. host: maryann from california, good morning. caller: good morning. the caller before last spoke about illegal immigrants in the prisons. i read an article in the l.a. times last may that said california spent $850 million per year on imprisoned illegal immigrants.

be after costs -- actual cost was $970 million that california paid 859 million of that. the u.s. government paid $111 million. that is just in california. can you tell me how much illegal immigrants are costing all of us in the united states? we can track whales in the pacific ocean, but not human beings. guest: thank you for your question. again, i think it is a source of enormous frustration how much we spend in this country to lock up illegal immigrants. when you try to figure out how to reduce those costs, the strategists quickly become fairly complicated. first of all, you have a number of low-level felons, people

dust being detained pending deportation. frequently those processes take too long for state and local government perspective spirit that is one driver of the cost. the second driver of the cost is residents in this country don't have a monopoly on who is committing crime. you also have illegals. some of them commit crimes. when they do, especially if it is a serious crime, it is important for law enforcement and the legislators that they at least do some time. it's a very limited percentage of people permitted they have committed a serious crime and represent a threat to public safety, if there is concern that if you simply deport that person, they could be back in the u.s. committing additional crimes. some of these costs are unavoidable. some could be reduced through more efficient processing your this is something state and local are working hard on now with the federal government.

host: there was an editorial yesterday. it talks about the situation and how extensive prison guards are. talk was about salaries of prison guards and how that is, sharing the burden. guest: you have extreme variations in states across the country. you will get a state like oklahoma, for example, which the average daily cost of incarceration is under $20,000 per year. then you go to other states in

the northeast, for example, california, michigan, where the annual cost of incarcerating someone is significantly higher. those are driven by a large cost or personnel their salaries of correctional officers in particular. these are states where the cost of labor is significantly higher. you often have collective bargaining agreements with labor. you have negotiated agreements that end up in some of these states with higher salaries. you go to other states like texas, for example, which has a much lower expenditure per inmate per year. for many years it had a huge number of vacancies among their correctional officers. according to legislators, they were frustrated with the department for not filling or those positions because the agency was not paying enough in terms of salaries. it is complicated as to why you have those different -- differences in salaries. when you look at the corrections

systems across the country, we know that the cost of meals are getting down to $2 dollars a day and sometimes they need only two meals a day. they have cut every possible cost to run these systems efficiently. you are often dealing with crowded systems. the question needs to be the only way we are going to save cost is by beginning to slow the growth of some of these systems or in some cases even closing and the prisons and have fewer employees working in them. it's not the per person cost so much in a lot of ways as it is actual spending less. host: this editorial piece is making the case that the cost to imprison illegal immigrants convicted in crimes should be a shared responsibility, talking about the balance of what the federal government pays and what the state pays. let's go to michigan, donald, a republican. caller: good morning. a lot of individuals calling in from michigan because this is really a big issue here.

one thing that i have noticed and i know that we have talked about this morning, but to talk with specificity about traffic violations or driving violations. this is something that is really impact full to talk specifically about the city of detroit. you can have individuals stuck in perpetuity going in and out of prisons where revisionism because of a traffic violation and happened several years ago. it's a young man is stopped for an expired plate, he did not have the money to renew the plates, or the court costs that he has to pay or fines to the state, if he does not pay those fines and costs, then there's a warrant for his arrest. and there are more fines and costs added to that. i know individuals in detroit who go in and out of prison for driving violations simply because they don't have the economic resources to pay off

something that you and i might find to be somewhat of a small figure. the last point i want to make is that the amount spud of african- americans in prisons in this country, i am embarrassed to see the amount of one demographic that is incarcerated over another. guest: two excellent ponts. first -- points. the criminal justice system does look at fees and fines for financing the system. we have some counties in texas with 50% of the probation operations are financed by fees and fines that a probationer pays. * that is well into the thousands of dollars or well over tens thousand dollars. sometimes those costs become insurmountable for some people.

when they don't pay, they instantly assumed that they are going to be violated after their probation and so they stopped showing up for their probation meetings. when they stopped showing up to a probation meetings, they are astounded and then we issue an want for their best. this is the way the system is playing out. you have competing priorities really in terms of different financial obligations imposing on this population. for example, not only does the person on probation have spines and fees to pay, but they also have south support obligations and restitution. the southport is required by federal law to be prioritized above the other fees. victims understand that restitution to them will be paid ahead of other expenses to the government.

unfortunately, what happens is because we have different collection agents following this person in order to receive the amount of money that they are owed, some of the parties can get jumbled. sometimes we hear concerns that some probation fines and fees and a trumpet other priorities like child support and the victim restitution. to the point about racial disparity, that is something that really concerns everybody working in the criminal-justice system. an african-american male born threefaces a one ouand chance that they will be incarcerated some time in their life. that is appalling. we want to see changes. the issue of racial disparity in the criminal-justice system is absolutely something that deserves more attention. host: mike thompson, director with the council since 1997. he is launched various national

policy initiatives aimed at improving the outcome for people with mental illnesses in the criminal justice system. also, enhancing the ability of people released from prison and jail to succeed in their communities, and increasing public safety and working on issues such as reducing spending on corrections, something we are talking about today. but go to another michigan college, this time from indian river, a bill on the democrat line. caller: good morning. i am retired. i was incarcerated when i was 18 years old. after prison i got into a lot of addictions. thank god i got into recovery. live appear in northern michigan, we formed a nonprofit group a few years ago. we tried to get one of the prisons on what our idea was, to try to bring community in to the healing process to help young people before they get to

prison. we fought with the state three years before they finally broke down. that really -- i don't understand why they take that attitude. we are working now with the re- entry program. i met with a late last week from lansing. we are trying to get a men's group started up here. i have called probation officers and parole officers, zero pit we are trying to get them to come to our group. we have a meeting at salvation army. you cannot even get a return call. our goal -- i guess i'd just don't understand why they are not more acceptable to outside help. the recovery that i received for the last 20 years has been in the men's wear called the absent

fathers. my father committed suicide when i was a kid. it is not a coincidence. 75% of men in prison if never had a relationship with their father. if you took these men's groups that are out here and try to go into prison to help them, they will fight you? and nail. i don't understand that. community and the answer to help this problem. it won't allow them inside. what are your comments on that? guest: i am glad you raised this issue. going back to federal leadership we have seen on this, people like congressman bobby scott and then senator sam brown have made an extraordinary coalition of folks to emphasize the issues you are talking about pure the role of community and faith- based organizations providing a positive role model, mentoring incarcerated people and connecting with them once they are released, that is something that they made a key component of the second chance act. in fact, close to a thousand

people in washington right now focusing on how to make those community-based mentoring efforts more successful as well as other efforts to reduce recidivism. that is something a lot of people are trying to put more emphasis on. your point about the integration of those programs with corrections operations is a fair one. it essentially, you have people running secure facility is who are making sure people don't get out. these are secure facilities. their first instinct is not to figure out how to let volunteers inside, to help people succeed with reentry. we are seeing more that, but not as much as folks in the community would like to see. that is something we are starting to see change and evolve. tour other point abou

probation officers not participating, their caseloads have swelled dramatically due to budget cuts largely, across the country. a former corrections committee chairman in new york city said no one can spend money faster than a disgruntled probation or parole officer. you can make their caseloads as high as you want, but then they return the people to prison or jail and cost the state a heck of a lot of money. in arizona, for every 44 probationers provoked, the state spends --. we need to help those people succeed. if we don't, we are facing a major cost as a result host: mike thompson, justice center director at the council of state governments. thanks for being here. thanks to all of our guests and called mr. that is all