i may have been with the faa for 20 years. i count in the ranks. a year ago, the number was 30%. we are reducing the number of retirements. there was a surge. we had an exceptional number of retirements for three or four years. it met a lot of people to retire, the last agreement. we had an enormous surge in retirements. i believe the inspector general noted we had a 25% increase in cost. we had a 35% increase in training, which would account for the cost. . .

airlines are buying new equipment, pine nearing new routes, maybe opening new stations. these all require our certification. we have 2400 in items, safety items that the in the que to be certified, new wing tips, advanced eengjins all needing certification. these are all objects that would make the aviation system better more cheaper more environmentally friendly. >> but nobody can do anything until they get certified. >> nor would they employ people who would build them. nesmjen becomes threatened. i read a report if we delay for five year delay will cost $148

billion of the potential value that we get by building the system. so to delay it five years has an enormous impact. >> i thank the chair. >> thank you, senator. >> thank you madam chairman and i want to thank you for holding this important hearing and for our witnesses to testifies and this is my first hearing as ranking member so i'm looking forward to tackling the issues thatfall into this committee's jurisdiction. i think in most circumstances our constituents always want us to be able to share their experiences and when it comes to flying, most of us are frequent fliers so we can certainly identify with the challenges that people face and in traveling and tonight work with my colleagues on this committee to ensure that our consumers in this country have access to affordable safe and timely air service. our nation's air space and the almost 25 million square miles of oceanic square space that

the f.a.a. is involved with monitoring involved air traffic controllers and civilian and military controllers so together they ensure that our nation has one of the safest aviation systems in the world. but as we have found from recent reports there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. so i appreciate hearing some of the steps that are being mentioned today. and i wanted to take up a question, if i might, mr. babt with you regarding nexgen. you mentioned it and i'm aware that f.a.a. is in the early stages of implementing some major advances in air traffic control management with the next generation air traffic control system and the system will use technological advances to make aviation more efficient. in sox cases aircraft will also be flying closer together more safely. that's the plan. to what extent if at all do you see the nexgen system preventing or reducing incidents that could be caused

by controller eare errors? >> well, one of the advantages that the nexgen system brings us is very enhanced and increased situational awareness so that the display in the cockpit will show all the aircraft around your aircraft. so you will have essentially the same display that the air traffic controller has and it's simply a backup system. we have, as hard as we try there have been situations where radar fails. sometimes it's for a few moments, a few seconds, but when airplanes are closing at a closure rate of eight miles a minute each, combined closure rate of 16 miles a minute, 20 seconds is a long time. and having that situational awareness and warnings that you would get from that type of situational awareness increase and warning technology could be a huge life savor. so yes it gives us a much better situational update, a more timely. people don't think about it

when long range radar sweeps. paul could tell you better than i but i think it's between 9 and 12 seconds between updates. airplanes go a long ways in 12 miles. so that's when they update themselves again. so these are instantaneous. >> is there anything in the nexgen system that could be improved that might help alleviate problems that are caused by controllers falling asleep? >> well, the issue there i think is being managed a little differently. we are taking a real hard look in working with our colleagues to work through the scheduling processes, fatigue mitigation and so forth. the technology of nexgen is going to be more effective in terms of providing everybody of situational awareness of where the traffic is. but i don't see the relationship to alertness. >> and i don't want to, if anybody else on the table would want to respond to that, feel free to. i was directing that to mr.

babt. but i also wanted to point out, i guess, over the next 10 years we are going to be looking at 11,000 new controllers being hired and trained so i would direct this to you mr. babt as wem. but are there any programs in place that would be able to identify who might be more adept or who might have the greatest difficulties of working the midnight shift? is there any way you can identify those types of things when you're evaluating personnel? >> the doctor could probably shed a little more light. >> if you could. >> one of the things we did just in terms of overall training, this morning i kicked off our blue ribbon panel, a group that we selectd in this review of air traffic control training in this panel of five is going to look at every segment of how we hire, how we train, how we requalify our controllers. are we teaching them the right

things? is the curriculum right? getting the right ratio thrusso our school? and these are all individual experts in their fields. so i'm looking forward to their report to us to help us improve the training of the controllers. >> senator thune, the people who are morning types do not do as well on shift work as people who are evening types. this is actually a difference in their sir cadeion rhythm. this is a physiological difference between people. so evening types do better. also, younger people do better. as you get older sometimes people tolerate shift work very well cease to tolerate it as well or tolerate it at all. this may be because as we get older we become, we shift to become more and more morning type. so this is an issue. and there are physiological differences that do speak to

people's ability to do this. >> well, it just seems like that with that kind of information that managers might be in a better position to schedule and mitigate potential issues for controllers before they happen if that kind of information and data is available. it sounds like it is. >> it is. this is accepted within the field. >> ok. madam chair my time is expired. >> thank you. senator. >> thank you madam chairman. i was beginning to feel very lonesome here because we introduced the chairperson, then the chairman of the committee, the ranking member, and then members of the committee. so i'm multiples here. i'm members of the committee. and i'm glad that weaf chance to have this exchange. really important. and when we look at the numbers that fly every day and how well

, how good the performances of the controller of course it's really remarkable. but the very obvious glitches that are in here when you look at now that the incidents in which air traffic controllers, caught sleeping on the job, forcing to land planes with no assistance. and i understand mr. babity that you are taking steps to ensure that there's at least two people if i'm correct in the tower at all times. but i wonder, in the processing of appointments to various stations, whether are there any prohibitions against second jobs? i'm sure a lot of people enjoy second job income and among the controllers as well as other people in the workforce. do we have, are there any rules

that say, look, you can't have strenuous exercise before you come to work and that has to be a pledge? i don't know how you monitor it. but the fact is if someone just had a five or ten mile run and then comes to work, you could be headed for a very serious problem. doctor? >> thank you, senator. the main determine nant of sleep time is work hours. so you add the work hours with secondary jobs other employment, you cut into your sleep time. it's the main deterrent. first is work hours. second is travel time including dropping people off and picking peep you will up and communitying. and third is family community responsibilities. >> right. but with all of those things, i mean, answer the question as i

put it. how do you regulate a behaver? because that obviously has to do with sleep. now, i know when i get older i'll probably, as you said, will need more sleep. right now i'm good. but. >> i think he said you would just be getting up earlier. >> we can't continue this dialogue. but, and i am so proud of our workforce. but as you know, and there are thousands and thousands of really well, good movements and no problems and so forth. but it's not the good things you do. that's expected. it's the bad things that happen that we're focused on. because, one incident can be one far too many and we have to

be careful with that. so you know, we had a major assault on controllers some years ago where the whole force was terminated virtually and had to rebuild. now, and i hear you ask, plea for sufficient budget to take care of your responsibilities. now, but then on the other hand, i like what you said, that safety is the most important issue and there will be no compromise in safety. but how do these things come together? if you don't have enough money in the budget, it's pretty hard to say well, ok, we're all going to do safety measures and the greatest safety would be to spread the hours out ten hours

between jobs or whatever that is. there's an inconsistency there. and i think that not unlike the military. when we send people to the front, we have to have enough bullets for them to carry. and if we send people up in those towers, those jobs are equally important because a mistake could be unacceptable under any condition. so how does that work out, the budget and safety? >> senator, i'll expand a little bit on the comment that i made. you are asking me to make somewhat of a selfish choice and i indicated that we would not compromise safety. and we won't. we have a very dedicated workforce. the air traffic controllers, we're going to staff and man and make certain that they have the rest they need, the education they need and so forth. but what i did indicate is there are areas that are more discretionary. and for example, the certification.

we're looking right now, there are three different facilities being proposed to be built on the east coast of the united states. one is bowling, one is honda jet, and one is embri air. all three of these facilities propose to hire anywhere from 1500 to 4,000 employees and each of those facilities has to be certified by the f.a.a. now, is safety going to be compromised if i build one four months later? no. but i would suggest to you, i think the american people would be far bether served by building that plant and putting 4,000 people to work four months earlier rather than me lacking people to inspect the plant. so we're being forced to make some discretionary spending decisions that i think there's a fairly significant business case that would support the request that we have made. and i appreciate all of us want to do better. we want to do more with the funds that we have. i think we're very good shepherds of the taxpayer dollar. i can point you to savings we

have. we have undertaken programs within the f.a.a. we have saved $560 million in the last five years and that's programs, we didn't ask people from more money. we funded those from internal savings. we're going to save $85 million this year. we've got plans going forward to be more efficient. but at the end of the day, not having the funds that we're looking for will have consequences it won't be safety but it will have consequences. nexgen will be delayed. stpwhr >> it's got to be someplace. you can't get more liquid in a quart bottle and the quart will hold. the quart was intended to hold. and i don't know how motchmadsm chairman that we can say, ok, build additional airplane building facilities, bring more airplanes into the system, and

not be guaranteed that we have enough funds to supply the appropriate number of controllers. and there ought to be a formula that says, ok, you want to cut the funds that go into the f.a.a.? ok. then here's how many controllers we have. and we say there can only be x number of airplanes in the sky so that there isn't a question about that this tug of war that you find yourself in or that we find ourselves in where, oh, it's going to be cut, cut, cut. when you cut too much the blood starts running. thank you very much and thank you all very much for your testimony. >> thank you, senator. mr. babt, i would like to go back to the questions that i was asking about operational errors and just trying to understand whether you have any purview on this as it relates to this year. are we seeing the same trajectory? is this your better than last? >> no. let's start with i'm as

concerned with an increase of operational errors as inn. that's not a good thing. but the other side of it i am pleased. we tried to change the culingttur. we want people to report everything. we now have some of the culture change as we've asked our supervisors to be more proactive. and while self-reports in and of themselves are excluded from the reporting, often operational errors are dually reported. i'm your supervisor. you make an error. i see it. i file it as an operational error. so there's no prohibition on both of us noting that. >> you're not saying that's double accounting there. >> no. but the comment reports was made they're not counted and i'm saying they are. someone else is going p going to file the report. >> yes there has been a dramatic increase. the most serious errors went

from 37 in 2009 to 43. that was 133 million operations. and we saw an increase -- i don't like an increase of 7 and i want to know why those happen. but that's a very small percentage of error increase. if lion's share comes down in the less significant, the cs and the ds. these are operational errors. this means that someone who we wanted to have five-mile in trail spacing had 4.9 for a minute. we put that margin there for a good reason. we don't want people getting within 5 miles. but there's nothing at risk here. they simply violated the parameters and i want to know why. so we take this increased data and work it in. the goal here -- and by the way, as we go forward we're going to get more increases in error reporting. as we capture more and more electric tronically, i think he'll tell you when you look at a radar scope that's scanning

50 miles, can you look at it and tell that's 5 or 4.9? no. electricically you can and as this type reporting comes in we're going to see an increase in error. and that's a good thing. i want to know why those are occurring so we can change them. >> can you talk about the a group, which is the most severe classification of error and what the methodology is? is this subjective? is this an objective process? and -- >> no. these errors are ranked a, b, c, and d. loss of separation is essentially what we're talking about. >> and a is the? >> the most significant loss of separation. >> which is? >> depending on whether it's an in route environment, whether it's in the traken, final approach, each -- for example, over the ocean we separate airplanes for 50 mile separation because we can't see them.

we require them to report where they are. across the united states they can go to 20 mile. in a tray con they can be down to five and on final approach because the radar is better or when they can see each other we go to 3 miles. >> and this increase of 7 over the previous year do you know which of those they were? >> i can get back to you with that data and each particular event. but my point is that thousands of the increase were down in the cs. not significant. they were operational errors. they were a loss of separation. but not the significant losses. that's the ones that we're really concerned with. they all concern me. i just wanted to make that distinction. >> do you know if any were more proportional errors during the midnight shift? >> i don't know the answer to that but i can get back to you. we certainly can get the time and location of each event. >> because i think that's one of the questions that we're

trying to askern here. we're seeing this increase of operational errors that is very concerning and we obviously have this issue of fatigue in the workplace. they're both very concerning and but being related to each other would make us even more concerned. >> common sense would direct me to suggest that probably not because the traffic drops off significantly in the evenings. these operational errors tend to happen in high-volume situations. >> so is the air traffic controller's schedule and fatigue considered a casual factor for operational error? do you know? >> i'm sorry? you're asking? >> the f.a.a. do they list casual factors for each operational error? >> when f.a.a. launches its investigatory process, subsequent to each operational

error there's a series of questions that are asked. we believe that those questions need to be better refined and the data needs to be much more precise. for instance, i referred earlier to our review of fatigue factors in the chicago area. air traffic control facilities. and in reviewing error reports at that location we were looking specifically for the degree to which fatigue was accounted for in the investigation. and we found in too many instances a cursory description of what the controller had experienced that might lead an observer to think he might be fatigued. for instance, the report form will ask what shift. that's entirely relevant. the controller in some instances reported simply rotation. didn't indicate which shift, didn't indicate which day in the 221 rotation.

with better attention, we feel from management and a better list of questions to begin with, that will yield better data, better data with proper analysis will yield better corrective actions. >> thank you. chairman rock if he willer. >> thank you, motch. i think it's only fair that you get to talk. so let me ask you a couple of questions. number one, this has not been answered and i'm ashamed to say i don't know the answer myself. please tell me that an air traffic control person cannot hold two jobs during the course of the day. >> it's not prohibited. and under the imposed work rules of 2006 and pay rules of 2006, many of the new air traffic controllers were holding down two and three jobs to make ends meet because of the cut in pay. i implord the administrator for really getting and the secretary of transportation for putting a lot of focus on getting us back to a fair

collective bargaining agreement. and i'm not sure what the number is if inn is holding two jobs down at this point. >> you said two and sometimes three? >> sometimes three they were. from 2006 to 2009 to make ends meet. >> that's stunning to me. because the doctor can do all of the magic he wants but he can't overcome that one. and i'll come to you in a minute, sir. but that's an enormous statement. it's an enormous statement. to me, that's like asking for trouble. your response would be, well, they don't have any choice. they've got to make a living and they've got mouths to feed. that's where we get into the question of the budget not affecting this. safety comes first. well, the budget is going to affect this, it's going to affect pay increases or nonpay increases. just like having not having nexgen makes people's life much

more complicated. on the other hand it makes it much better because they can see farther out and have much more accurate spacing readings. but how can this happen? has this just always been the case? how do you make the case that this doesn't cause sleeplessness or bad judgment? >> actually, from the years of 2006 to 2007 we were talking exactly about the fatigue in the work environment and how we wanted to get together with the agency to address this. and that was one of our biggest reasons to get back to get a fair collective bargaining agreement was because we saw these new hires come in with a 30% reduction in pay and working at these busy facilities in these high cost of liing areas and not able to make ends meet and they were waiting tables and doing anything they possibly can. >> we have a problem here, gentlemen.

doctor, maybe you would care to comment. can these two things coexist side by side? and have us talk about maximizing safety? >> they can. but in a rather around about way. performance is dependent ond sleep in 24 hours. total sum sleep, however you put it. divided sleep, it can be fine. if total sleep in 24 hours is ok, then you probably are not so concerned about commute time or second jobs. it's when it cuts into the sleep. there are ways of directly measuring unobtrucively activity monitors that you can track people's sleep wake history. unobtrussively. and if that was ok, again, that would probably be all right. but again -- >> with all due respect, you're talking i think from a little bit from a lab point of view. >> absolutely.

>> and in the real world of being in a control tower, people aren't going to divide up their sleep very well, i wouldn't think. maybe i'm wrong. maybe both director babt and mr. rinaledi can comment on that. >> i think there's a very big issue. >> fatigue is real as i said in my opening statement. and we've been wanting to address this for many years. and i implord the administrator for putting a workforce together. we've come up with 12 recommendations. we believe all 12 of these recommendations will help my gate fatigue in the work environment. and as i said earlier, the new collective bargaining agreement is fair and it has gotten us back to although not yet in 2012 we will get back to the 2006 pay bands which has taken some of the stress aust new air traffic controllers that don't

have to have maybe two or three jobs any more. we're not there yet. we are getting there. so there was a lot of things we're addressing there. but the 12 recommendation that is are built on science, and it's not the union says or the f.a.a. says. it's a conglom ration bilt on a scientist from nasa saying this will help fatigue in a work environment. that's what we're really pushing for. >> work to be done. thank you. >> senator thune do you have a second round of question sng >> just a couple of things. and mr. babt, the following this string of sleeping controller incidents, the c.e.o. of the f.a.a.'s air traffic organization accepted responsibility and resigned. that's a critical position, obviously, at the f.a.a. how long before you find a replacement and what is the type of skill set that you are looking for? >> it was unfortunate.

he was a professional and i've known him for a long time. had an excellent background and reputation. we are starting the process now. i couldn't tell you in exact terms. sometimes some of the folks that you would like to have might not be as interested in taking the job as we might want them to be. certainly this is a job that requires a lot of operational experience, this network is not unlike a large logistics network. this is a very complex operation. there are just the operation itself, you've got over 500 facilities that are manned with people on 24 hour, the jast majority of them on 24 hour schedules. they have unique skills, they move, they have to be trained. the operational side of it. introduction to their system is obviously the new techniques coming with nexgen, new procedures, how do we maximize those, how do we prioritize those. so we have right now a set of criteria that we're looking at.

we're reviewing it within the department of transportation and we're going to start our search very quickly. now, the good news is in the interim david, who was chief counsel to the f.a.a., david is a seasoned professional, 24 years with continental airlines. he has a lot of experience in big operations. and saw a lot of traps formation at continental airlines. he is familiar with networks. and i think he is doing a terrific job. but he would rather go back to being chief counsel, i believe, than the coo. but he's doing a good job in the interim. we've got a lot of good people in there. so my hope would be within the next few months. but it's hard to say. >> accountability is important but one individual is not solely spobblet for these incidents. have you made any other personnel change that is you believe will emphasize the change in approach? >> yes, sir, we have.

we have undertaken some of them pretty dramatic management changes. we've got about 10 different areas where we have taken the leadership and in some cases people thought maybe it would be better to move on and do something else. we clearly have some cultural changes to make. one of the reasons that paul and i were on the call to action was clearly to reinforce professionalism. senator rocker feller mentioned we can't regulate this. i can't regulate professionalism. i wish i could but i can't. but you can call upon and the vast majority of the air traffic controllers are very proud of what they do, have great respect for what they do. and we've called upon them to help mentor people. sometimes you see someone doing something less than professional, speak up. it's your profession. and we really carried that message to them that they need to be helping us police the professionalism. someone can have 16 hours of rest in terms of what the

doctor thinks is rest but we found out that they played 36 holes of golf that afternoon. that's not professional. you can't -- i don't care how much sleep you had if you didn't use that sleep wisely and take advantage of your sleep opportunities. so these are the types of things that -- and i'm very pleased professional standards group that is being built is addressing these. because some of the stuff you can't do top down you have to have it from the bottom up. and they're inspired to do it. it's a proud profession. they're not happier about this blemish than anybody. so. >> let me ask just a general question, too, because you've implemented the nine-hour rest period. i think the it was recommended ten and the recommended nine hour rest because evening and day shifts only. maybe why the recommendations were chosen. and maybe for the rest of the panel, is that satisfactory?

does that rest period, is that something you feel would be the most effective in mitigating fatigue? >> one of the 12 recommendations was the nine-hour break between the evening shift and the quick turn to day shift. that was backed with science and said that would give us an extra hour of sleep in our sleep bank as we were rotating through our shifts. that was backed with science and that was one that we recommended. the extra hour between -- i refer to the scientists here. the extra hour between the day shift and midnight shift because you're starting your shift later in that deprivation period of midnight to 6:00 in the morning when your sir cadeyan rhythms are expecting you to sleep, that we don't support it. we're working with the administration to show if

science supports mitigating the fatigue we're 100% on board. if 10 hours is better than 9, it shows that 9 hours has the most benefit between shifts than 10 hours. and if there is 9 hours are supported from a day shift to midnight shift we will be 100% behind that. right now it shows opposite because you're starting your midnight shift in an area where -- and you're working more hours in that dangerous period. >> it's -- i agree with mr. rinaledi. it's a very tricky issue and it depends on the timing of the sleep opportunity. if you place the sleep opportunity as he indicated in the mid, early to mid evening, that's the forbidden zone for sleep. your body temperature is rising. all your systems are telling you to be awake, stay alert. and it's very difficult to sleep during that period. so nine hours from 3:00 in the afternoon until 11:00, 12:00 in

the evening is not going to help very much because it's not going to be a useable sleep opportunity. in contrast, 9 hours from midnight to 9:00 in the morning, beauty. you'll sleep well and capitalize on that sleep opportunity. so it isn't just the duration of the opportunity but key is placement with respect to the circumstance aidion rhythm. >> if i may. you referred to our recommendation which dates back to 2009 as part of our report out of the chicago facility review. at that time we recommended 10 hours between shifts. and it was our understanding at that time that f.a.a. was about to change its internal order to specify ten hours as opposed to eight hours between shifts in the 2-2-1 roteation. we endorsed that change. since then, and mr. babt and mr. rinledi have both referred to the work group who

recommended a move to nine hours. look, we're not weded to 10 hours. we would gladly defer to medical science on this question. but we think that the agency would be well served as well to be guided by the science when it comes to naps or rests during a controller's work shift as well. >> it will be cold comfort, mr. thune, for the family of a victim of an aircraft accident if it's determined that it was due to controller error and that the controller was fatigued at the time and had been depride of opportunities for naps or for rest. >> thank you. >> senator launtberg do you have a second round? >> i ask unanimous consent that my full statement, opening statement would be put in the record. >> without objection. >> and i want to ask mr. babt a

question. 2006, the former f.a.a. administrator informed me that newark liberty air traffic control needed at least 35 controllers to move traffic safely. now, i don't know whether that was intended to be full performance people but right now there are only 26 ser certified controllers manning the tower with eight trainees. and what's the f.a.a. plan to address the need to keep our towers fully staffed with certified controllers? >> yes, sir. i'm not sure, i don't know the numbers available to me but my understanding today is the range. we do in fact try to staff to traffic. so traffic flows change sometimes. and therefore you might want to increase staffing someplace. sometimes you have the opportunity where traffic falls off someplace. a good example recently would

have been cincinnati where a merger forced a move in traffic to other areas. so traffic in another city went up dramatically and traffic in cincinnati went down. it takes us a while to migrate the people back and forth. so specifically my understanding today and i can get you the absolute staffing numbers that we have. but we think we have a floor of around 28 and a ceiling of about 38. >> newark liberty is a complex airport due to high volume of flights, congestion, new york-new jersey air space. constrained runways. now, what have we got to do to provide the numbers that we need for newark when my understanding is that 75% of the trainees don't make it through the program? so when you have a dropout rate like that, oren incleet rate like that, what do we do to get

newark up to date? >> yes, sir. i think i made an earlier observation that we had difficulty with the previous agreement with the collect kwlive bargaining agreement. we were unable to attract seasoned controllers into complex facilities. that has changed and those numbers that you're looking at are old numbers. we've had dramatic improvement since then. now we're able to, if we needed to fill spots in, for example, newark, we would be able to advertise that and a seasoned controller might come from a smaller facility and very easily upgrade into it as opposed to a new hire. and the fact that we had to put new hires into some of those facilities led to an exceedingly high washout rate which was unfortunate but we've cured that today. >> do we still have increased salary for high-cost areas? >> yes, sir. >> is that still in place? >> yes, sir. >> so if someone shifts in from

another less busy airport to become a fully trained controller at newark, that means they automatically will get an increase in their salary. >> well, if they would come from law guardia, probably not. but within the metropolitan area it would be probably the same. i would have to look in particular. >> we try to keep the wards up on this the house republicans have threatened to cut back f.a.a. funds to 2008 levels. what impact would these proposed cuts have on our ability to hire and fully train new air traffic controllers? >> that would be a big concern of ours to go back to 2008 levels for the obvious reasons that as mr. babt said, from 2006 to 2009 we lost somewhere between 4,500 air traffic controllers, 5,000 air traffic

controllers. and in the last five-year period they've hired air traffic controllers. it takes three to five years to train somebody to become an air traffic controllers and that training duss put a lot of stress on the program. in a lot of our facilities are above the 25% optimal trainee to cpc, certified professional, control level. so if we went back to 2008 numbers and we looked at not hiring and continuing to hiring the fear that we have is currently we have about another 4,000 air traffic controllers already to retire or eligible to retire and they will be retiring soon. we have another wave of retirement. we haven't caught up from the first waver that we experienced in 2006-2009. >> i close with all thanks to all parties, people, who do a terrific job, and their teams do a terrific job. but we're going to hound you to death to make it better if we can do it.

thanks very much. >> senator warner. >> thank you for holding this hearing. and i want to commend mr. rinledi and plrbabt for the actions we're takeen. i'm glad to see you've been working together. this is not an area that i had a lot of knowledge about but we all remember a meeting that i had with you back in 2007 and i don't think in all my time in public service had more of a frightening session kind of getting air traffic control 101 in terms of the potential wave of retirees, the challenges of attracting new folks, the ability to get through training periods, the ability to attract people to stay in this profession, the antiquated equipment and the need to move to nexgen. and i want to again echo what senator lautenberg said.

i think you all do a good job. we need to be constantly vigilant. but i guess i would ask you at first if there is anything else. i mean, the remarkable thing is a lot of the things he said in 2007 have all kind of come to pass and i don't think a lot of our folks around the country would know kind of how close to the edge because there had been obviously a massive transformation when a lot of new people were hired, and i just wonder if you've got any -- i know i've missed the first round of questions and in the testimony. but if you've got any at least this moment advice or admonition, hopefully not any more predictions that somewhat of what you made in 2007. >> thank you, senator. unfortunately, i think that there's a lag in the system and i didn't mean to in my opening statement to say we're not concerned about operational

errors. we certainly are. what i was trying to refer to is in the 2006-2009 and even years before that, there was a culture within the f.a.a.'s covered up, hide it, and management's incentives were tied to it. and we weren't getting the information to address the safety concerns in the system. that's why i applaud the administrator for really putting a just culture in place to address the safety concerns with the system. unfortunately, guest: we're going to see an increase in operational errors as we talk about better reporting, open reporting. we're going to start to really see where there are possible implications of safety in the system. and i just, i look forward to working with the administrator and working with all you to say yes we have a concern here we need to address it. so as operations grow, as fatigue is a real problem in our work environment and we look forward to implementing those 12 recommendations to

mitigate as much as possible, and i don't know if you can ever eliminate fatigue in a high-stressed 24 hour a day profession like air traffic control but you can certainly try to mitigate it to the point where our cognitive skills are not impaired. and that's really where we look to go so that we're embarrassed by what has happened and we're a proud professionals and we don't like any of the nonsense that is going on and we want to make sure it never happens again. and i think the first positive step is to address these 12 recommendations and to really address the safety concerns. >> and do you both feel that you've gotten now the transparency and the training processes in place to make sure that we don't have this kind of cliff effect of retirement that we've run into in these last two years? >> no, sir. senator, we've now reached the retirement rate is literally half of what it was three years ago. we're down to a steady state. any corporation, any business

with a -- that's been in business long enough gets to the point where you've got retirements that five, six, seven percent per year, that's where we should be. and we can train to that. but we were overburdened. there's no question. we were training the twice that many of controllers for three straight years that put a huge burden. we have a finite number of training facilities. when you put 30 and 40% trainees into a facility, who trains them? the other controllers train them. so it's a big burden on everyone. but we are now getting down. we're very comfortable in the 20 to 25% range and that's where we are today. >> i appreciate the collaboration both of you are going to work on. and again, i just wish that all those things you said, the rest of them don't all crom true as well. let me just, administrator, come a little out of left field so you may not have the answer but hope you get back to me. one of the things i've been

interested in as well make sure we get additional spectrum out into the marketplace. and a number of years back there was an award made to a company named light squared that potentially would be another mobile broad band competitor and there were certain questions about interference with existing gps systems. some of these concerns seemed to have been raised now five or six years after the grant had been made and nobody likes to give up spectrum but some of the technology or folks that i've to said there are ways that we can make sure there is another viable broadband competitor out there and still make sure as we move into nexgen that the, there's appropriate gps protection for, that are appropriate nexgen gps services are used. i just hope as the f.c.c. moves

through this process that you'll cooperate and not just have the approach, ok, you had this spectrum for six years now we're going to say there's potential interference here. >> yes, sir. we're actively engaged and working through and trying to find a solution there. one of the problems of course was the original intent of light squared was to use a satellite signals. back in november they began to come up with the idea that they could enhance the signal by boosting it on the ground with antennas very powerful literally 100 times more powerful than the original forecast from space. now, there is a technical solution available but i have to tell you it would be not without consequence. the technical solution remember we would have to design the equipment to filtter interference, certify it, reinstall it. there are consequences to

putting new equipment in airplanes. to do that would probably be in the 5-year at best range. and then you're talking about equipping airplanes that have been designed now for the last 15 years to accommodate adsb where the airplane takes its positioning develops from a satellite and then broadcasts that. we have about 5,000 commercial airplanes that use that equipment today and about 140,000 general aviation airplanes. >> clearly anything would require a transition period but i would like to see, and my understanding is the f.c.c. would come out with what some of those costs would be. at some point we have to weigh the policy implications again. >> certainly. >> thank you both. >> thank you. i apologize for being late. now i'm in the enviable position of being last which i think means all jess been asked

but not by me. so i first want to thank all of you. i was especially impressed by your comments and exchange with senator warner about the pride in your profession and how these recent events have been so disappointing in the work that's being done to fix it. you all know our commercial afeation system carried nearly 800 million people last year many through major transport hubs like minneapolis-st. paul airport. there's still issues we know and we have some of our traffic controllers falling asleep, fatigue and sleep deprivation among air traffic controllers is a serious issue and i appreciate the chairwoman for having this hearing and all of you for taking this on. i know mr. babt, the f.a.a. has recognized and addressed the issue of fatigue and the new step in guidelines require two

controllers in towers during night shifts and nine-hour windows between shift. have you been able to quantify the effect on these new staffing policies since they were implemented or is it too early? >> i believe senator it's probably a little too early. we haven't seen these part of the problem is these towers or whatever the facilities were 27 towers, three tray cons that had single person manning. the reason they had such low staffing is very little traffic operations at those hours. so we wouldn't expect there to be much in the way of operational errors there but it is too early to tell. >> i know there were a spate of reports sort of in one time period about people falling asleep. but there seems like there haven't been at least in the last month or two since secretary lahood or others came out. do you have any information on that? >> well, we instituted a number of changes.

you did miss sort of our review of putting nine hours. rir know the changes. i just wonder if you've had reports of others falling asleep. >> i called for a top to bottom review and we did find some that happened earlier. now, i'm sure if i go back further i'll find more. but we did find two that happened in january. both instances of people either observe with their eyes closed or observed sleeping. you know, neither of these were good. one in los angeles and one in fort worth. we're just adding that to the statistics. >> i though when you visited me last week we talked about this. but the rest periods may require additional air traffic controllers. does the f.a.a. have an estimate of how these new policies could affect the demand for controllers? >> in this case we're talking about 30 total out of 15,000.

that has a consequence. but we're working with the controllers. there are ways that we could, for example, provide the same effective results having two people together in a tower as an example we often have where we have facilities where we have someone in a tracon or radar facilities downstairs and someone upstairs. we can put a console upstairs and let the person work radar up there. it's dark at night anyway so they can work the facility and now there are two people at no cost other than the one-time installation. >> you would have someone else working in there? >> yes. they would be doing the same work in a different location, we would just put them in the same spot thus saving us the extra person. >> one last question. this spring of fatigue work group composed of representatives made a set of 12 recommendations that if

implemented would address and mitt gailt the issue of fatigue dofment you know the status of review for this proposal and do you expect to implement the recommendations? are there other recommendations beyond double staffing and longer breaks between shifts that could be implemented? >> there's a number and we have already implemented several. it came out of the fatigue study. we're in discussions right now. we're going to review and see what makes the most sense. in addition to the f.a.a. and naveca, we had some human factors folks and people that introduced medical science to help us better understand fatigue and better understand how to mitigate it. so all of those are going to be in review. some of them would require memums of understanding or modifications to the collective bargaining agreement. if we need to increase shifts or do other things like that. but we have had excellent cooperation with ourselves and

nafta going forward on this >> thank you. anyone want to add anything? >> the 12 recommendations are a good start but they'll have to be implemented, tested and evaluated to see if we reach the goals. and there might have to be more the scientists and the workforce will continue to work together to see if we need more time in between shifts or whatever might happen. and actually test controllers with wrist bands and see exactly what if we're really addressing the fatigue. more importantly and mr. babt and the doctor touched on it is the education factor about fatigue. we have about 5,000 new air traffic controllers under the age of 30-something that quite frankly when we were all 30 we thought we were invincible and when we were in college we pulled all-nighters. but we really need to make sure

that we address fatigue and address it real and identify it and make sure that we do have proper periods to sleep and we use that to sleep and rest. >> ok. very good. well, thank you very much. and thank you motch for having this hearing. >> i think that does wrap up our hearing. we have discussed a variety of issues and the acceptable trainees, scheduling, getting more details on the operational errors and the meaning of those operational errors and obviously the implementation of recommendations. so this committee is going to play an active role on oversight on all of those issues. i can't say that we're taking a legislative pass at this moment. we're not ruling it out either. we're going to continue to be diligent until we feel that we have improved the safety and continue to implement those safety recommendations. so thank you all very much for this hearing.

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