unions lending to small businesses. later, highlights from the republican leadership conference. we will hear from a obama impersonator. texas governor ann potential presidential candidate, rick perry. -- texas governor and potential presidential candidate, rick. >> this week on the communicators, we will talk to michael powell about telecommunications issues and his transition from sec chairman to its current leadership role as the head of the cable industry association. the communicator's airs every monday at 8:00 eastern on c- span2. >> on washington journal, catch the hut and wall street journal carol lee discuss presidential politics and reaction to republican candidates at the republican leadership congress

-- conference. arturo munoz talks about al qaeda's operations since the death of osama bin laden. the airlinelook at fees. the airlines made $5.70 billion in revenue from fees. >> mr. president, thank you very much. i feel deeply honored to be nominated to become the 20th director of the cia. >> with his senate confirmation hearing scheduled for this thursday, learn more about general david petraeus to his nearly 50 appearances on line at the c-span video library. with more than one of the 15,000 people and every c-span program since 1987. all searchable and free. it is washington your way. >> the house homeland security committee holds the second in a series of hearings on

radicalization in the american muslim community, this one focusing on prisons. these hearings have attracted criticism. witnesses include a former and current law enforcement officials from new york and california. this runs 2.5 hours. >> the chair wishes to thank our guests for their cooperation. as far as proper decorum, we

want to welcome a new member of our committee. even though you are on the other side of the aisle, we look forward to working for you and thank you for your interest. we would also at this time make unanimous consent request. congressman keith ellison was to have statements submitted into the hearing. does the ranking member have any statements? >> if yes. i would also like to welcome our new member from new york who is on the right side of the committee. [laughter] always also like to enter into the record letters regarding our hearing. i would also like to enter an article entitled "presence in the age of secretary." -- "prisons in the age of sacred

terror." >> this is the second of our hearings on radicalization in the muslim american community. i welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses, their first and insights into this problem, and we appreciate your willingness to share your experiences with the committee. the issue of islamic radicalization in u.s. prisons is not new. in fact, this is the third hearing on this problem in recent years. this hearing is necessary because the danger remains real and present, especially because of al qaeda's announced intentions to intensify attacks within the united states. a number of cases since september 11 have involved terrorist to work radicalized in prisons and subsequently attempted to carry out attacks

in the u.s. and overseas. last year, senator john kerry, senator -- chairman of the senate foreign relations committee, released a report. three dozen u.s. citizens converted to islam and traveled to yemen. dozens of ex-convict. came radicalized muslims inside u.s. presence traveled to yemen to join an al qaeda group run by a fellow american who's terrorist have attacked the u.s. all land in 2008 and have generally acknowledged as al qaeda's most dangerous affiliate. a 27-year-old somali american was indicted in federal report for fighting in somalia. according to family members in court records, he was a gang member. he was convicted for a number of crimes including assault with a deadly weapon. after his release from prison where he was radicalized, he was

soon on his way to fight in somalia. the obama administration recognizes present radicalization as a serious threat and that presents art program for recruitment. -- prisons are brailled for recruitment. the reality of the radicalization threat emanating from our prisons was demonstrated last month. an illinois prisoner pleaded guilty for attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction. he was planning to assassinate our colleague and destroyed the federal courthouse and office building in springfield, illinois. he was radicalized i get a new york prison. he is scheduled to be sentenced for his role in attacking troop

transports at a national guard base in new york and to attack a synagogue and jewish community center in new york city. today we will hear about kevin james, a radicalized muslim. he has a terror plot from behind bars at california pottery folsom prison. it spread from the prison to a local mosque and resulted in a plot to attack a u.s. military recruiting center on the 9/11 anniversary and a jewish temple on yom kippur. another one met a fellow inmate who led him to a radical mosque. he moved to the middle east and joint al qaeda. he was sent back to the u.s. in 2002 to attack our homeland.

prison radicalization is not unique to the united states. last week the growing threat of islamic radicalization and at the radicalization strategy. just as the homegrown al qaeda terrorist attacks in britain, including a 2005 subway attack in london, 2006 explosives plot to blow up american planes flying out of britain, and a 2007 car bomb attack on the edinburg airport -- in 2009, before hood murders, the attempted times square bombing in 2010. we must assume the same for present radicalization. i have repeatedly said that the majority of muslim americans are outstanding americans, yet the first hearing we held in march

of this year was met by mindless hysteria. countering islamic radicalization should not be a partisan issue. i urge my democratic colleagues to rise above partisan talking points. i am a year to work with the obama administration. the president's all national security adviser said three months ago "al qaeda is attempting to recruit and radicalized people to terrorism in the united states. the threat is real and it is rising." al qaeda is trying to get muslim americans -- muslim americans to become radical. the department of homeland security is formulating a comprehensive plan to stop radicalization and recruitment in america pause the prisons. i asked the democratic members to join with the obama

administration in acknowledging the reality of these threats and work with us on the committee. we look for your assistance. i thank the witnesses for being here today. i recognize the ranking member from mississippi, mr. thompson. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i welcome the panel of witnesses today. as you know, the united states has the highest incarceration rate in the world. more than 2.3 million people are locked up in america. approximately one-third of these prisoners claim some form of religious affiliation. islam is the fastest-growing religion among prisoners. about 80% of those who join a religion in prison join is long. studies show the typical inmate who joins is long is poor, black, upset about racism, and not particularly interested in italy's politics. in preparation for this

hearing, my staff spoke with representatives from the bureau of prisons, state prison officials from across the country. none of them are here to testify today, i regret. the bureau of prisons and state officials informed us that they routinely require religious staff, including imams, rabbis, and priests to undergo rigorous vetting. they told us that any religious book or recorded message must be screened and guards monitor the services. when we asked about radicalization by outside and lutzes, they told us that prisoners do not have internet access and all nonlegal mail is opened, red, and sometimes censored. judging by these accounts, it would seem the opportunities for

radicalization are few. the evidence bears that out. according to congressional research services, 43 violent attacks carried out by muslims says 9/11, there were only two clear cases of radicalized released prisoners plotting a terrorist act. judging from this evidence, i think it is safe to conclude that the risk of terrorism originating from muslim converts in u.s. prisons is small. limit think this committee's oversight of radicalization to one religion ignores threats posed by violent extremists of all stripes. there are other threats to be concerned about. according to the national bank intelligence center, a study on january 2009, approximately 147,000 gang members are

incarcerated. they pose a security threat not only within prison walls, but also in our community. the ability of leaders of these criminal enterprises to control and direct operations outside a prison cannot be ignored. further, the violent right-wing ideologies of many of these gangs must be discussed. let us not forget that james byrd was dragged to his death on a back road in texas by right wing gang members who were radicalized in jail. they undermine order and commit mayhem. it is not dependent on political ideology or religious beliefs. the committee held a hearing assessing the threat to the nation body's security calling the death of osama bin laden.

we learned about terrorist aspirations to launch attacks on the u.s. earlier this month and american born spokesman for al qaeda released a video that called on muslims to commit violent acts on america by taking advantage of the gun show loopholes. he told his viewers that in this country you can buy a fully automatic assault rifle without a background check at most local gun shows. he is correct. in march, the gao reported that almost 250 on the terrorist watch list were cleared to purchase firearms last year alone. in that hearing, the expert testimony underscored that our greatest threat may be from all wools and solitary actions. the video has given these potential actors encouragement, advice, and a road map.

mr. chairman, as we considered the threats to our security, let us focus on eliminating known security gaps. we are not in danger from people already locked up. we must look at the evidence. we are placed at risk by gangs do use prison as a base for present -- for criminal operations. we are placed at risk by lone wolves exporting the gun show a loophole. i looked over to work with you on this legislation to close these known security gaps. working together, we can reduce the risk to our major -- nation from dangerous people roaming the streets of america. >> i thank the ranking member permit his statement. we will hear from the witnesses. try to keep your opening statement to five minutes. bill be followed by a series of questions by members of the panels. our first witness is patrick

dunleavy. he works for the new york department of corrections. he has investigated terrorist recruit but in new york state prisons. i would add that he has a long and distinguished record counter-terrorism, working undercover, and doing an outstanding job. with that, i recognize patrick dunleavy for five minutes. >> sorry about that. chairman king, ranking kelso, distinguished members of the committee, it is a privilege to discuss the threat of radicalization in u.s. prisons. the prison population is vulnerable to radicalization by the same agents to or spot -- who are responsible for radicalizing outside prison walls.

outside influences access those on the inside and inmates reached on the inside out. individuals in groups that subscribe to radical ideology -- in 1968 a group was founded. one of its goals was to establish a mosque in every present that would appeal to its ideology exclusively. two of its first converts in the new york prison system were regarded as leaders of the movement despite the fact they are serving life sentences. the detroit michigan branch was led by someone who died in a shootout with fbi agents seeking to arrest him in 2009. he was in present prior to his conversion to islam. it gained an increasing number

of converts in the '70s and '80s. the ideology was the dominant force in the present mosque. in the late '80s and '90s, there was an influx of foreign-born inmates from the middle east. many of them created -- perpetrated by blacks against nonmembers. they had international connections from terrorist organizations such as al qaeda. after they were arrested they walked into the present mosque and were hailed as heroes. they were inspired to deference by the muslim inmates. some of them were given a position as administrative cards. this gave them access to a telephone that was not monitored by security personnel, which allow them to make calls to let the united states and overseas. one of them while serving his sentence in attica, conspired

with other individuals on the outside to bomb the world trade center in 1993. jihad had come to america. several law enforcement agencies receive information regarding radical islamic activities in the present system. authorities monitored a jordanian-born inmate who identified himself as a follower of osama bin laden and said his group was interested in recruiting inmates. he said his group intended to give inmates trained in the middle east after the release and then have them return to the u.s. to participate in jihad. not surprisingly, his present job was as chaplain clerk. the initial exposure of -- to extremists may be seen in prison, however, it all went matures after release. in 2009, 4 x inmates were

arrested for plotting to bomb synagogues in new york. they did not know each other while they were incarcerated, but they met each other after their release while attending a local mosque connected to a prison ministry. that mosque had been founded by omar. in 2003, he gave an interview. he retired from the new york department of corrections where he was director of ministerial services. he said that without justice there will be warfare and it can come to this country. he said the natural candidate to help such an attack are african americans who embraced islam in prisons. in other words, prison was a prime place to recruit terrorists. as a result, the department of justice lost an investigation. in its report, among its

recommendations, they said there was a need for a verifiable body that was certified islamic clergy prior to hiring. to this day, no organization has been appointed to fill that role nor has there been any formal determination as to how i vetting process would take place. the result of that in action brings forth two cases. a new york city corrections officer was hired in 2007 and arrested in 2010 for attempting to smuggle dangerous contraband. during administrative hearing, he asked for his job back. he was -- he had spent 14 years in a new york state prison for murder. the york city corrections was aware of his criminal history when they did the background check. they said that although a felony conviction would disqualify a person from becoming a corrections officer, that rule

did not apply when hiring chaplains. the only requirement was a certification of endorsement. that organization is connected with the muslim alliance of north america to list among their leadership several terrorists. the same organization also soared by another imam. he was indicted by the u.s. attorney's office of fort providing material support to an organization in iraq. time was aerk at the convicted islamic terrorist. anything can be gotten in prison. >> we need to wrap it up. >> anything can be gotten in prison including a smart phone. i would not be surprised to find a copy of an al qaeda's inspired

magazine in any prison. i will close my comments at that point. thank you for allow me to speak. >> thank you, mr. dunleavy. i am not the only one with an accent like that. there are at least two of us. do you understand what he is saying? >> not much. [laughter] >> now we have a transplanted new yorker. kevin smith was raised in my district, but had the good sense to move away. he serves as the deputy district attorney for san bernardino county in california. he prosecuted some who were convicted for the most detailed terror plot cents 9/11. he attended the university of notre dame. you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much. chairman king, ranking member

thompson, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. i have worked in law enforcement at the local -- as a local and federal prosecutor since 1996. from 2000 until 2007 i served as an assistant united states attorney with the united states department of justice. working in the united states attorney's office for the district of california. in 2005, i became involved in the investigation and prosecution of a group of individuals who were involved in a seditious conspiracy to wage a war of terrorism against the united states government by murdering u.s. military personnel and jewish persons in southern california. these individuals were members of a group that was created within the present system in california.

today, i intend to discuss this group and their seditious conspiracy. let me begin by discussing kevin james and j.i.f. in 1997, he founded j.i.f. while serving a prison sentence in california. james remained in prison throughout the conspiracy and the resulting investigation. james priest that it was the duty of members to target for violent attacks any enemies of islam or infidels. james identified these infidels as the u.s. government and jewish and non-jewish supporters of israel. james recruited fellow prison inmates to join j.i.f.

he sought to establish a cell of members to wage war against these perceived infidels outside the prison walls. kevin james all see it -- also created and disseminated a document referred to as the "j.i.f. protocol." he said muslims should be allowed to rule themselves might shariah. jihad was the only true anti- terrorist action. kevin james also wrote documents that were essentially a proposed press release to be disseminated following an attack. james river -- james wrote that the document would be left were atnd if 187

fault, a videotape would be sent to all news stations. a convert to islam met judge kevin james in 2004 after he was transferred to folsom prison near sacramento, california. james recruited washington into j.i.f. washington swore an oath of loyalty to james. he was paroled in 2004 and now has the ability to carry out a violent operation on behalf of j.i.r. outside -- j.i.f. outside of prison walls. james required washington to recruits special operations members and train them in covert operations. he acquired two pistols with silencers. he appointed a special operations never to acquire explosives. along with these instructions,

washington got quickly to work. he went to a mosque in california where he met gregory patterson, a convert to islam. washington recruited him into j.i.f. this war and off -- and of -- an oath of loyalty. they began to select targets for their attack, ultimately deciding on military recruitment centers in coke -- in southern california and a jewish temple. they documented their selection of targets. they had access to a shotgun, but also to find that there jihad, they engaged in a number of 10 robberies in the southern california area. ultimately during the investigation, -- during the conspiracy, patterson dropped his cell phone.

local law-enforcement were able to investigate based on that dropped cell phone. federal law enforcement, the fbi, and the u.s. attorney's office got involved. we were ultimately able to successfully indict kevin james, washington, and paterson on the charge of malicious conspiracy -- to wage a war of terrorism of the united states government. each of these individuals pled guilty and received federal prison sentences including 22 years for washington and 16 years for kevin james. it is my opinion that this case is an excellent example of the ability of both federal and local law enforcement to work together. thank you very much. >> thank you, mr. smith. our next witness is michael downing, who is the chief in commanding officer of

counterterrorism and special operations bureau. in may of last year, he was elected president of the leadership and counter-terrorism alumni association. let me also express regret to the committee that one of the officers was killed in afghanistan in march of this year. he was a reserve officer serving in afghanistan. we look over to your testimony and thank you for flying from the west coast to be with us. >> good morning. chairman king, writing member thompson, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss the los angeles police department's view and strategy to this most important phenomenon relating to the threat of muslim american radicalization in u.s. prisons. must've been -- much has been written of the past five or six years. as we have seen violent extremists targeting innocent

civilians were plotting against the united states, we have also seen a surge in converts and radicalization of those converts toward violent acts. fortunately, there still remains a phenomena of low- volume, however, the radicalization of even a small faction of this population holds high consequence for americans and innocent people around the world. we had the largest incarceration rate, the largest prison population of any country in the world. prisoners by the very nature are at risk in susceptible to recruitment and radicalization by extremist groups because of their isolation, there violent tendencies, and their cultural discontent. los angeles is known for its outreach and engagement with and policeunities in communities that are isolated, balkanized, or feel they are not integrated into the

session -- social fabric of society. the muslim communities are our strength. in this context, we recognize that islam expresses itself differently in los angeles that it does in the united kingdom or europe, even then it does in santiago, minnesota, or new york. there is no one organization who speaks on behalf of the umma. the expression of islam in the prison system brings great concern. a general number of converts assimilate back to what they were doing prior to leaving prison. there are exceptional cases that will continue to strike fear in the hearts of america. it is a great concern that up to three dozen african american prison converts train to yemen -- flew to yemen to train with al qaeda. we talked about the cases. they are all examples of prison

converts plotting to commit -- commit acts of violence against innocent people. there are several ongoing cases to stories have yet to be told. the common denominator is conversion to a radical form of islam within prison. if islam expressed itself in the california prison system as it expresses itself in the los angeles region, will be talking about the strength in value that is what brings to prisoners in terms of behavior and value- based living. however, this is not the case. it is not the case because of the manner in which prison populations are exposed to islam. instead of providing a balanced, peaceful, contemporary perspective of what the great and peaceful religions of the world, we are left with a hijacked, cut and paste person known to the counterterrorism that -- counter-terrorism practitioners known as

"prislam." as a matter of practice, the american congressional chaplain association recommends one chaplain for 500 and nights, yet we are seeing 4, 5, and sometimes six times the ratio. the qualifications for chaplains are different. there are different standards. the type of materials are designed to create understanding of what perspective based based factors may utilize for their purposes. radical materials inside the prison system still exists. the noble peron, english version, with the chapters and titles that call for jihad or in

the present system. the spiritual adviser for al qaeda is in the present system. meetings are not properly monitored because of the ratios of chaplains and prison guards. the efforts to reduce crime mitigate risk engaging communities to -- high risk people, high risk places, high- risk activities. this model can be translated into the prison system. it needs to be looked at from a whole government, ultimately approach utilizing non- governmental offices, community volunteers, and leadership organizations. with the muslim american umma in the united states be proud of what converts are learning about

islam in prison? in some cases, they would be shocked and dismayed. one of my greatest concerns is the issue of convergent threats. we are seeing convergence in the areas of gangs, cartels, organized crime, terrorism, and human trafficking. just as isolated communities can become incubators of violent extremism, so can presence. if left unchecked, presents can and do become incubators of radical extremism. in 2005 after the london bombings, prior to that, after 30 years, the british said, "we defeated the i r a." they were ready to not fund terrorism and move onto other things. then an attack return -- occurred and they realized they had a threat. american said we have good immigration policies. we did not have that threat. two years later, we had more

threat. we have not uncovered the right type of rocks in the prison system. we have the fusion centers, we have infrastructure in the prison system, we are suspicious activity in reporting in the prison system, and just today, we are getting 15 to 20 suspicious activity reports a month that the ball into three or four open cases per year. that is only seven out of 33 correctional facilities in the state of california. we do have a problem. our communities are at risk. thank you. >> thank you very much, mr. downing. the next witness is a professor bert useem. he worked for the university of

mexico. he has published several books and papers. you are now recognized for your testimony. >> good morning. i think the committee for its attention to this very important matter. the crux of my testimony is that prisons have not served as a major source of jihad radicalization. 3 that support this conclusion. first, u.s. presence now confined 1.6 million people. each year 730,000 inmates are released. second, from 9/11 to the first half of 2011, 178 muslim americans have committed acts of terrorism or were prosecuted for terrorism related offenses. third, 12 of these 178 bacases,

there is some evidence for radicalization behind bars. putting these three facts together, if prisons were a major cause of jihadist radicalization, we would expect to see a lot of it. but we do not. why not? my research has identified seven factors that have inhibited present radicalization. first, over the last 30 years, u.s. prisons have been able to restore order and improved inmate safety. for example, prison riots have all but disappeared. the homicide rate in prisons has fallen by 90%. a byproduct of the restoration of order is the appeal of radicalization is reduced. second, correctional leadership

has consciously and successfully defused the mission of observing signs of inmate radicalization into organizational practices. rather than waiting for facilities to be penetrated by radicalizing groups, correctional leaders have fashioned, staffed, and energized the effort to defeat radicalization. third, increasingly in recent years, correctional personnel coordinate and share information with external law-enforcement. fourth, inmates cannot communicate freely to potentially radicalizing groups on the outside. the internet is unavailable. mail is inspected and censored. fifth, a large body of efforts have shown that terrorist tend to come from better educated, a

dentist backgrounds. u.s. prisoners tend to have little education and come from poor communities. the profiles of criminals and terrorists are different. sixth, a surprising finding that has come out of my research is that there exists a modest level of patriotism among inmates. it is the case that inmates are hyper concerned with their own self-interest. still, they expressed some level of a loyalty to the country. this makes prison a hostile environment for jihadist radicalization. finally, in recent years many agencies have improved the screening and supervision of clergy and religious volunteers.

if prisons were a major cause of terrorism, we would see a large proportion of jihad terrorist link to prisons. that is not the case. still, a small number of prisoners have been radicalized behind bars. but as long as law-enforcement continues to be alert and more collaborative lead with each other, the threat of terrorist activities in and from prisons will continue to be diminished. >> thank you perry much professor for your testimony. -- thank you very much, professor, for your testimony. you talked about the lack of popular vending -- of proper

vetting for chaplains in state prisons. we have been impressed by steps taken at the federal level. you gave the example of the imam who was arrested for smuggling razor blades into rikers island. he had been certified as a chaplain by the leadership council, which is located right outside my district. the leaders are always been getting my office. when an organization such as that is certifying the chaplain, who is a convicted murderer, has the situation improved at all? >> again, i do not think so. because there is no standard. one of the recommendations after that investigation in 2004 was that there would be a certified body, and ecclesiastical body,

that would do the vetting. >> he was still serving in 2007. what's that is correct. cities and states were relying on their own standards. in some cases, there were no standards. in some cases, there was no communication between the present department and police department with respect to individuals that were hired. >> professor useem believes the threat is not that significant from the presence, yet, chief downing, you say it is a subject of great concern. prisons or communities at risk. as a person on the ground, the you consider it to be a serious issue? >> a very serious issue that i do not think we yet know the to scope -- we do not yet know the scope of the problem. we do not have the people in

place to understand the depth of the problem. in the los angeles region with seven counties and seven correctional facilities we get 15 to 20 reports a month. they may not all be terrorist reports, but they do develop into an open cases, which is of great concern. we are looking for it now. we advocated the prison guards and institutions of what to look for an out to report it. >> in your written statement you say there are several ongoing phases and stories yet to be told, however, the common denominator is convergence to a radical form of islam. are you concerned about ongoing cases? >> indeed we are. we have ongoing cases that involve converted prison radicals that are out in the community now. that story will be told when the cases prosecuted. >> mr. smith, and the cabin

janes case, there seems to be a perfect confluence of a radical form of religion, organized gang members, and almost an assembly line of radicalization in the prison. going post prison to a mosque ended radicalizing more and planning to carry out terrorist plots. what is unique about a religious radical as opposed to a gang member, skinhead, or neo- nazi? >> there needs to be a comparison between an individual ho is committed ag a jihad outside of prison. in the state of california, you cannot be in a prison lsu of committed a felony. they have already stepped outside the norms of societal behavior. the ball across that line. often with pilot backgrounds and experience with weapons.

you have an individual who is and hasd to g.jihad already acted outside the norms of society. the jihadist mentality is basically overlaid on an individual who knows how to handle weapons, who knows how to access weapons, who knows how to communicate, even in the prison system and outside the prison system. when that individual steps out of the present, as happened to levar washington who was paroled, you are dealing with a very dangerous situation. this is an individual who has already operated on the criminal side of law and is very committed to carrying out by what acts. washington is a perfect example. within six months time he had recruited two additional cell members.

they had acquired weapons. they were committing gas station robberies to find their g jihad. this shows the convergence of criminal sophistication as well as commitment to jihad. >> thank you, mr. smith. the ranking member is recognized. >> thank you very much. mr. dunleavy and mr. downing, you both have talked about issues around presence and the fact that so much of what is happening is because of lack of resources to do certain things. are you saying that in the state of new york the reason chaplains like in thettted federal system, it is a matter of resources? >> no, i do not believe that is

the case. ?> why are chaplain's not veted >> that is a good question. that question has been asked since 2004. what are the standards? it will establish the standards? is there an islamic organization -- >> if not just islamic -- chaplains, period. if you knew in 2004 that a problem exists for a chaplain can be certified without the bureau of prisons in new york having some standards, here we are eight years later and you still do not. do you know why the state of new york does not have any standards for chaplains? >> the report did not say "all chaplain's prayer "it said "islamic chaplain's." >> is there a reason why islamic

chaplains or not that did? >> -- are not vetted? i am just trying to get to the point. is there a reason why new york did not that islamic chaplains? do you know why? >> i think new york does. the new york state department of corrections does, but i think the need for standardization between new york state, new york city, you also have federal prisons within new york state -- you have national -- you need national standards. >> the witness or whenever the issue is is something those units of government has created by not coordinating the standards. >> agreeing on the standards. that is correct. >> thank you. we all agree that there are bad people in prison.

mr. smith, your comment about someone getting out of prison, robbing, trying to promote a terrorist cause -- we understand that, but there are a lot of people who get out of prison and do bad things. i think if we look at it from that perspective, we will all agree that whatever it is that is causing people to do bad, we need to fix it. if there is a terrorist nexus to it and we can close the loophole, we should. but if we look so narrowly, we have a real challenge. mr. downing, in your work in los angeles, who are the most dangerous people in prison? >> gang members certainly are dangerous. >> gang members.

describe the gang members to the committee. >> in los angeles, we are probably the gang capital of the united states with 60,000 gang members in the county of los angeles in 400 different gangs. they are violent, but our territorial, -- they are territorial, they have a culture that is exclusive, and they are vulnerable. they are recruiters. >> i in your experience, those really bad people -- do those gangs continue to operate when they get to prison? >> very much so. >> so, basically, we have a lot of gang activity that is an ongoing enterprise in a lot of presence, primarily the state prisons, am i correct? quite correct. >> so, if we're looking at

radicalization, are you saying that those radicals or bad people -- are gang members primarily purses what we're looking at here today? >> the structure is interesting. when you get into a prison, you had the crip side, the blood side, or this evolving muslim side, which is getting more attention, but not enough. many of the gang members are moving over to the side. as you know, kevin james recruited a rolling 60. on the inside, they became allied with an ideology. >> i appreciate that. we understand the evolving threat, but the threat as of this date in terms of the the

most dangerous people that we have incarcerated are many of those individuals affiliated with gangs based on what he said. the aryan brotherhood, those individuals who basically operate their activities out of the prison. am i correct? >> yes, you are. >> thank you. >> i recognize the former attorney general from california, mr. lungren. >> thank you mr. chairman. the political correctness in this room is astounding. as someone whose district includes the new folsom prison with the plot was hatched to commit the crimes in southern california and as someone who represented the area at one time with those crimes were carried out, to ignore what that is is

to may astounding, absolutely astounding. let me ask the experts we have on banks and terrorist. how many of the street gangs in either new york or california have any ideology which is dedicated to the destruction of the united states. mr. dunne led the? >> none. >> mr. della the? >> none that i know of. >> as serious as the gang problem is -- i spent most of my life working on that problem -- have you come across leaders in the various gangs have indicated specific purpose is to undermine the institutions of america and in any way associate themselves with any transnational terrorist organizations. mr. downey? >> i would say that both represent a type of insurgency.

one is to overthrow the united states and kill innocent people. the other is to sought -- to survive in the shatters a society. >> mr. smith. >> i think the distinction that need to be made between a radicalized jihadist and a gang member serving prison time -- a criminal is interested in in richening themselves personally with their criminal activities. it is a selfish motivation. that is their aim and the general goal. when you contrast that with individuals like levar washington, they are not in -- they are not interested in engaging in criminal activity for any means other than jihad. that is the difference in the danger. >> is the aim of the terrorist attack to produce the greatest amount of terror in a community?

that is, to try to do the greatest amount of destruction, both physical and psychological as opposed to gaining economic benefit? >> that is absolutely correct. one of the expected tenets of terrorism is the need to create and exploit fear in the population. that is what a terrorist seeks to do by targeting innocent people. >> mr. dunleavy, you have been asked questions about why we do not properly vett certain chaplains. is that not the correct the problem? we have a religion which is an accepted, noble religion -- one of the greatest religions in the world -- that is being subjected to radicalization by a certain percentage of its advocates and

there is no standard to make the judgment with respect to someone who is teaching or preaching in a prison that may be of a radical subversion obverses a nonmedical a virgin? >> -- radical subversion versus a non-radical subversion? >> tuesday most dangerous inmates in the prison? my answer is the na you know little or nothing about. when you have a inmate of middle eastern descent who may have been a wajabi, there is an interest between administrators as did the actual religion of islam. what is the difference between a sunni, a suffi, a shiite?

if you do not know, you cannot establish standards. that, i think, is the weakness. >> about five years ago the head of the prison system in california came to me and ask to have a meeting with the chairman to speak about his concerns about the radicalization of muslim prisoners and the california prison system. subsequent to that, we had a hearing. actually, it was a year later when the democrats had assembly majority. a congresswoman conducted a subcommittee hearing for the purpose of looking at the kevin james case. i make this note for the record. there was no objection on the majority side and no suggestion that we were somehow involved in an improper pursuit of the truth there, or that we were somehow wrongly confining ourselves to

that particular case and not dealing with all the other cases in the united states. i salute congresswoman harmon for that. i wish we could see the same concern and bipartisan support. i thank the chairman. >> i thank the chairman and i thank the ranking member for both as to presentations.