also a tour of urban slavery's sites with the civil war havana harbor on, and on american history tv, travel to the founding days of savannah as we visit a plantation and discovered antebellum savannah. today on c-span 2 and 3. this week, a professor of economics and a filmmaker team up to make a rap videos explaining who economic policy. our guests are ross roberts and john papola. >> when did you decide to teach economics with rap?

>> when i was 12 years old. doesn't every young boy dreamed of that? i got contacted by john out of the blue. he said, let's do a video together. i said, great idea. you do the work, i will get it started. he is an extremely persistent person. we started out with the idea of doing a video that caught some aspect of economics. it strangely morph into a rock video. -- rap video. >> i saw there were 2 million kids on your first video. is that a lot? >> it is the high bar.

in terms of economics, that is good. long after the first pop, 3000 use a day every day. going to look get this video. what is it called? >> we want to go back in history and look at the role of the great depression in this role about whether in government spending and recession can get us how of this? we wanted to make it bigger and better in every way, so the song is so much older shot.

i think the other thing is a lot of ways this is complementary, and this video is much more the political economy and the applied theory. they talk about the real world. the first few minutes of this, and you can dissect its. >> it is such an honor. >> just go right on through. identification please.

>> high explosives. >> high explosives? >> we have a 1066. \ >> what is about? >> it is just an example of how to pronounce my name. >> what were we watching? bucks one of the things we try to do with this one is -- >> one of the things we try to do with this one is set a context for the personalities. cains is a big figure in the world of politics, in the world of economics that have been taught in the mainstream. people know his name. it is part of the vernacular, whereas you can come across

heavily accomplished economists who do not know about this. he won a prize, so it is not like he is a completely heterodox character, but we want to set up the physical landscape. >> where were they checking in to do? >> this was the beginning of a congressional hearing. they're on their way in to testify on behalf of government spending in the economy. >> who is john maynard keynes? >> he is probably the most influential in the 20th-century. wereheories in the 1930's of justification for a lot of government spending and it's dominated for roughly 40 years

until the 1970's, when things went awry. keene sellout of favor in the 1980's and the 19th -- cannes -- keynes fell out of favor in the 1980's and the 1990's. he is a huge figure. he had an odd sizes personality. he was a very charismatic man and very attractive to all kinds of folks who wanted to be around him, so we make him the popular guy in the videos. >> let's what some more. a >> ladies and gentleman, members of the committee, we are here to consider the impact of

government spending on our economy. we are fortunate to have two world renowned economists to open their testimony. >> i see there is a detour on the way to serve down to -- way to serfdom. i am ready. good are you bellman's -- are you? >> ♪ rao's two, s amy economist, same belief -- round 2, same economist, same belief, new mustache ♪ >> who are those supposed to be in real life? >> in real life the gentleman with the beard is a certain fed

chairman. he is a silos fed chairman -- stylized said chairman. i will leave it to the audience, and it is also my dad. >> how about the other fellow? >> if he is surrounded by people who own represent redo who represents the bank's the fed interacts with -- he is surrounded by people who represent the bank said interacts with. a set of this board -- they sit on this board and sometimes turn to it when they get in a pinch. >> who is on the right of ben bernanke? some thought it was timothy geithner, and the treasury secretary. >> they are no one in

particular. there is no name associated with that particular gentleman in the real world. >> what are you trying to accomplish? >> we are trying to give people of understanding of the argument between these people, the keynesian approach versus the bottom up approach. most people just presume if you spend money you create jobs, and we argue that did not happen in the past. when we stop spending money at the end of world war ii, the economy did very well. we argue there is not a lot of evidence for the keynesian model. we are given macroeconomics is not a scientific as people like to pretend. when he got a nobel prize for a powerful piece called "pretense of knowledge," we use that in our song, and we argue that economists often act as if

economics is a precise science. we are going to create 35,000 jobs. this will cost 16,000 jobs. that is the use of scientific jargon to give an aura of certainty that does not exist. that is our goal to think about both sides of the question, and secondly, we get a little skeptical about the scientific nature of economics. >> who wrote the songs? >> it was us together. >> it was one of the things that was most exciting about the project. i was trying to educate myself about economics, but russ has written fictional books of is a very creative person, so it is a very unlikely balance of down

the middle and right thing together, and -- riding together, and bringing ideas to the table visually. it is a great collaboration and friendship, and that is what is this about. >> you live in new york? >> new jersey. >> you live in maryland. how did you get to know each other? >> we spent a lot of time on the phone and e-mail and before we met face to face. we wrote a preliminary song that did not make it we decided to reject. we did not write the music. the music was written by record region richard jacobs, who is a great composer -- the music was written by richard jacobs, who is a great composer. >> why did you get to know russ

roberts? >> i was working at spika tv. it does not endorse our work, but i have a lot of great support from my colleagues. it is a great group of people, and as the combination of the election cycle in 2007 until 2008 and the financial crisis sparked my interest in the idea of economics. i was very inspired by the ron paul campaign and the way he was talking about -- how many people talk about monetary policy in a political setting gunman and -- political setting? the fact that you have a lone voice talking about the role of money in the economy followed by this crash, and we had an bernanke appearing for the first time in nine years, and that

struck me as there is a story that is not being told, and as a creative person, i think i have the tools to sell it in a different way. >> you say econ talk is the way you got to know he was assisting. what is the? >> that is my weekly podcast. the woman who cuts my hair. now the guy who sells cars. it is economic conversations of the day. i do it at my office, but it is a liberty fund prostate. it comes out every morning at 6:30. there are about 230 on the web. " said george mason university. it is a podcast. how do you find it? >> you can google it. >> what was your pass before you got into spiked tv? >> i went to film school at penn

state's university, and i have been a member of the viacom family for my whole career. i got started at in tv in the animation group, and then i work for nickelodeon, which is where i met my boss, so when he left nickelodeon to go to spike, i said, take me with you. the sounds exciting. in the first seven years until this april did before we left to start a new venture, i was with spike. >> the first video was released when democrats it came out in january, 2010. >> -- was released when? >> it came out in january, 2010.

>> let's watch a little bit of the route. good region t -- of the rap. ♪ you think it is time for a switch ♪ the long run is here and it's time to get sober ♪ ♪ are deserved greater ♪ ♪ things would have been worse >> 13 c and models are tidy and neat, but the top down approach ♪ ♪ >> i have to ask you who is the chairman?

who is he supposed to be in congress? >> he is awesome. he is a great singer. the composer work with him before, so when we decided we really wanted to break up the routing with something melodic, and richard and recommended new rich, and that is how that came about. >> who are the actors in front? >> they are improv canadians -- comedians. they have of hilarious group. i met my wife at nickelodeon, so she is also a tv personality who -- professional. we have a couple of up-and- coming wrappers, and it was not quite fit thing. good richard -- quite fitting/

we have to take the time to get the intonation is right, and i turned to my wife and said, we need to guys who look somewhat like keynes and hyde who can commit a clear route, and she found them in a week. >> region who can wrap -- who can rap, and she found them in a week. they are amazing professionals, and they are great human beings. >> tell us about the characters they are playing. von hayak was from what country? what are the basics he stood for? >> he was born in 1899. he was born in austria, and of

spending time in england, where they began to be friends. they were respectful of each other. i have seen the postcards they wrote to each other. they call each other by last name superior -- by last name zeroths. hayek spends time in the united states, so he had an incredible career spanning a huge part of the 20th-century. he was important for a bunch of reasons. "thrown to -- the road to serfdom, is what a lot of people

recommend, but he wrote about politics and neuroscience, an incredible and breadth of knowledge, and had an impact in the 1930's and the 1940 costs. he got the nobel prize, and it has a rebirth we are trying to encourage. we think his ideas are very important. >> didn't you graduate from the university of chicago, >> i did. >> did you ever meet him? >> i did not. he was acquired figure. i was required to read one of his most famous art circles, which he wrote in 1945. the views to be on graduate student lists, but -- is used to be on graduate student lives, but i thought it was an incredibly important paper. >> where was keynes located?

>> cambridge, and in his young career, he was most famous for economic consequences of the peace, where he said the verisign treaty would lead to disaster. he also wrote about the economic probability . i have not read it since 1977. >> when did he live? >> he died in 1946. hayek was worried about inflation. keynes said he would nip it in the bud. they started this inflationary growth. he wound up with the stagflation of the 1970's.

we are about to get another dose of that. we will see. >> your education? >> i have an undergraduate degree. it is from penn state. no economics? >> none >> i think it is an advantage. it is a dangerous thing. there is a lot of the gore and economics that can give you a false sense of understanding the world. it is easy to say you have it all in your head and it is a system. this is how it works. it is a challenge to stay humble about understanding, the more you get into it and the way you eat. that is what attracted me to his podcast so much.

not only does he treat his guests with a lot of respect and dignity, but he also approaches his own biases or point of view with a lot of skepticism. there are limits to what we can know. be wary of certainty with regard to the economy. >> which one of the economist is dominating the thought in the united states today? >> it depends on how you look at it. it is still very much keynes. people who admit fans of his with hayek same. we have reached this in debt ceiling which is a strange wall. it is like the world is going to come crashing down.

how can we not spend more money? how can we possibly imagine balancing the budget? there is a keynesian bias that is natural to government. more generally, every time christmas rolls around and people talk about how important the christmas spending is is going to be for the economy, our economy is built on consumption. that is a bizarre idea to think about that consuming what is how we create it. >> what is the biggest difference between being a keynesian and a hayekian? >> we ratcheted up spending dramatically. the keynesian will say we did not spend enough. >> what would have been enough?

>> paul volcker men would have said $2 trillion. there was no word about the implications of that for people's confidence. keynesian tend to look more at the short run. what is important is the political incentive. hayek worried about who is drawn to power and what happens to them once they get in power. the plans of politicians do not always and up at the economics department drawing board. they tend to respond to political incentives. hayek emphasize that. they will get the goods. >> let's watch some more. before we do that, how long is this video?

>> if you include the credit, this is just over 10 minutes. >> some more music. >> ♪ ♪ we could have done better if we only spend more. too bad that only happens if there is a world war. do you deny we were cut short of the recession? >> you are jumping for joy. wars only destroyed. there was the multiplier. concession just rang. >> when that wars spending and dick, your friends try disaster. >> where did you do all of this? >> we filmed the entirety of this and video in madison, new jersey.

this is just part of that. filmmaking is like a giant construction job. drew offered a nice big auditorium where we could stage the boxing scene. it had a chapel light feel of it. that is not the point of it. there was a classic environment or we could have our timeless congressional hearing. >> when did you do it? >> two long days on april 16 and 17th. it was over the weekend. my partner and i -- he had an unbelievable edit already done two days after. we got very excited about it. we cannot go to sleep. we had to get to work. we debuted only 10 days after we were done shooting. >> how much it cost you?

>> well, it should have cost about a quarter of a million dollars. it did not cost that. it was not dramatically below that. we pulled a lot of favors. we did not make money on it. from a production value, how you reproduce that, $250,000 is about right. >> where did you get the money? >> people were excited. it is all free. we have other material of their two. the essays, podcasts, videos we have done with other scholars. you can watch videos here. i want to reach out to people who we felt with the passionate about this project. it has a great appeal to the high school and college

audience. a lot of people are excited about people learning about good economics at the high school and college later. i advertised it. you can donate it there. it all came from private donors to our passion about economic education. >> you are a hayek follower. >> we try to give keynes his due. we tried to be honest. he looks better. he has all kinds of classes but we actually do like hayek. coming to george mason has a strong interest and austrian economics, my last book is intent to bring the ideas of microeconomics into a fictional context.

>> let's see some more video. >> you only see what you want to see. the spending on war affected gdp unemployment was down. that is why i am the master. that is why i am the hero. ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ >> what does it say on the back of this? >> this is my proudest contribution to the economy of the video. the day essentially had a version of the debate 100 years

before hayek and keynes. it was back and forward. it will not stop. it did not start with them. the debate went that he believed to can have a general collection of goods. there can be over production and insufficient demand for goods in general could cause a recession. that is what a recession was. on the other side, he said spending is not the nature of prosperity or the service of our purchasing power. the first has to produce something that someone wants. only do that you have the means

to purchase other things. i go to my job and make money so i can buy a house and a car. but that its reinterpreted in a strange way as that supply creates its own demands. it sounds a beacon go in your backyard and make a mud pie and someone will buy it. that is not what he was talking about. this is the source of your production power. it collapses because people made some mistakes. it'll fallen to other areas. he will have shifting sectors. i wanted make sure of this. >> it anybody figure it out? >> we have the teacher. and we have hicks. we were going to feed them in between rounds. we were not quite able to get that in.

we wanted to make a tip of them had to their influences. >> when you are writing this kind of stuff, who do you think of as the viewer? >> we try to reach people who are interested in how the world works. everybody from a high school student whose curious about economics to a person who is trying to make a living and get along into is worried about what is going on in the country. we tried to make these lyrics accessible and a little bit amusing. i have to admit, i still enjoy listening to it. it is clear. i not a rap fan. i am getting into. i get e-mails from adults saying that now they are into

rap now and their kids are into economics. we get them into these ideas. this is why we did this. it is very gratifying. how do you test it to see if they understood it? >> i do not do test groups. that compromises the logistics of it. sometimes you get the shot you want. you have to rethink the way it happens.

>> the first one you did was in new york in the snow. what is almost never happens. >> is there any money being made on showing this? >> no. >> we have almost a two-minute clip of the discussion of wall street and bailout government oversight. it shows hayek giving keynes a big punch. why boxing? how did you set that up? >> they had a strong metaphor. they have the drinking and the

parties and a hangover the day after. we were trying to establish that this fight and this debate is timeless. this is why stylistically the look is golden and nostalgic even in the senate hearing that is modern day. i hope that people watch it and say that when it ended back in 2009, it is a prevalent as someone said the recession back in 1933. it is a motif. it was a borad playground for us to have these ideas. >> it gives us a chance to make a little joke at the end. we decide you have the best

arguments. >> he really wanted to shoot a boxing scene. >> if somebody is watching and they want to watch both of them, where do they go? >> they can go to econstories.tv. in fact, i do not know i should be apologetic. if you google keynes, our video comes up in the first page. >> here is two more minutes.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ >> where did you get the actors? all the extras? >> they know how to get things done. at this point, we had already had a decent following. we reached out to our fans. my wife coordinated with this.

we wanted to be a part of it. it is not just a group of background extras. >> what are these names? >> you say they are not 30 yet. where did they learn how to dance that way? >> you know what? they actually do comic rap on their own. there have albums of their own. they have been doing this kind of thing for some time. >> when did you get interested in the podcasts and things like that? >> i remember when someone said we ought to have a blog.

i did not know about that. then i realized i should. that would be fun. when i heard about this, someone invited me to do this. i said i would not be late to this. i jumped in with "econtalk." people said no one will want to hear anybody talk about this for an hour. five minutes is a long time on radio. there is a big taste in demand for serious learning. it is not expo. it is not clashing. it is a conversation. this is the way we are hard wired. we talk and listen. i tried to ask the questions they would ask.

this was an obvious thing. i noticed people were not reading as much as they used to. obviously, the bid price was already video. i am -- the big prize was yardy video. -- the big price was yardy video. we spend a lot of time on these projects. it is a blessing to do. they understand what i understand. they have the same deals. i think about what it would have been like in 1985. this was 16 years ago that we came up with this idea. we would have created the dvd. how have we reached people with this. we would have gotten people to fast forward and by a bit.

we now have about 3 million. they have been subtitled. >> it was an illustrious crowd. make it difficult for. that is the problem with the macroeconomics. >> it was already written. it ended up not being there. they added it much more. it was like the sneak preview of the next one.

>> here is the last section of this music video. it is about two minutes. ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪

>> you said that is your sister that is holding the microphone. >> yes, my sister and my mother. >> where is your mother in this video? >> she is in the crowd in some of the earlier shots. >> you play back the song on sets. you sing-along to make sure that it is synchronized with the picture. in order for the performance to work, they do have to sing it there. if you don't, our eyes are so attuned to the subtle changes in your face that comes from singing verses not singing.

they have to belted out and really perform it live. >> if you are there in the room as it is being done, do you film this or tape it? >> these are beautiful cameras. if you are in the room, you hear them singing along with the actual sound on the speaker. >> that is right. >> you mentioned earlier this session. there are two stories. one is the making of the big deal. we will go back to something he mentioned about the liberty fund. >> i looked on the board. i only recognized one name.

who are these folks? what is the liberty fund? >> it was treated by a businessman. he was interested in the great books and dialogue. he was interested in education. they published reworks of economics. these are liberty fund editions. there are other great books like this. scholars and sit around and talk about ideas. then you have a web page. the podcast is there. we have all kinds of great works of economics. we have carl marks. we have some adam smith. we have the entire work said dave ricardo -- works of dave ricardo. >> it is the endowment over time. they did not raise money.

i love your podcast. can i get the money? >> >> i would probably take it. >> how did you educate yourself about economics? >> the podcast played a big role. also, just reading books. i have a long commute. >> how long is it? >> four hours every day. >> you would go from where to wear every day? >> new jersey into manhattan. i listened to a lot. there were textbooks. i watched an intro macro class. it was interesting. >> we have a clip of the first

video you did which is already 8 million views. it was released when? last april? >> in january 25, 2010. >> it is the old one. that would be nice. >> i am sure of it. set up what this was about. >> this is almost an intro buzz word festival for keynesian economics. you have keynes step through the basic framework for his theory and how it can get unemployment. they go through their employment which is bigger.

there is the role of monetary policy. it makes sense that it would have that effect. the cycle that the fed creates causes investments. this is about a minute 18. >> what a phrase has become well known? ♪

♪ ♪ >> what phrase has become well known? >> among certain circles, [inaudible] it appears [inaudible] the more than one e-mail signature? >> why? >> austrian economics is a lineage of these thinkers.

they came from austria. that was the mainstream before keynes. they have been allocated to the sidelines. like any group, he developed a loyal following. apple is mainstream now but was not always. a good slogan goes a long way for people who feel like they are not getting heard. >> when i got into preparing for this show, i started to drown in all the different website and blog. we talked earlier about "cafe hayek" what is that? >> that is my blog about the

issues of the day. >> what level? >> graduates. this semester i'm teaching a seminar on adam smith. >> did they have to watch your videos? >> they are all fans. they told me about it. they like it. >> john papola, "econtalk" is what? >> it is my podcast. it is everyday people, business leaders. >> how many of them are they? >> they are very interested in education. there are about 250. >> are there one or two that have really taken off? >> i interviewed milton friedman twice. those were popular. he has been on this 19 times. [unintelligible]

he is a frequent guest on my podcast. we cast him as the security guard. he is a big fan of the videos. he wanted to be part of it. he has cameos in both of them. >> what has been the most enjoyable part of this for you? >> i think maybe the most enjoyable is an impact on the ideas. they empower it. we have gotten so much mail and messages from people that are discovering economics in the way i did but through our videos. to sort of have discovered these ideas in this bizarre way for myself and they can to be back to that sort of community and that full of knowledge is

really amazing. i get emotional thinking about the fact that i am fortunate enough to get to do this. >> what is next? >> i do not know. we are at the end of that. we spent a lot of time thinking about that last 35 seconds. it might be the last time we see keynes and hayek on the screen. we know them personally, but to me they are keynes hayek and probably. i hope we will collaborate on something different. >> [unintelligible] >> i think that we have managed to cover a lot of ground with

these two. the best thing we can do for them and for these videos is to give them a chance to be covered and jokes for the ideas that serve around them. there is a lot of stuff in these two videos. there are other issues to cover. i will not count out the possibility every turn. but sometimes it is good to go away from them. when you come back, at you are that much more excited to see them return. >> john papola, russ roberts. you can find these video youtube.com thank you very much for joining us.

[captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] >> for a dvd copy of this program, call 1-877-662-7726. for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us atq-and-a.org. >> next, british prime minister david cameron and the house of commons. after that, an interview with texas congressman ron paul. then a look at the 2012 republican presidential

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