day, connecting with elected officials, policymakers, and journalists. weekdays, what live coverage of u.s. house and weeknights congressional hearings and policy forms. on the weekends, you concede our signature interview programs. on saturdays, "the communicator's." you can also watch our programming any time at c- span.org and it is all searchable at our cspan video library. washington, your way, a public service created by america's cable companies. this week on "q&a" a professor of economics and a filmmaker team not to make rap videos explaining economic philosophy. our guest is russ roberts who teaches at george mason university and john papola, a creator at spike television.

>> when did you decide to teach economics through rap? >> when i was 12 years old. doesn't every young boy think of that? i got contacted by john papola out of the blue. he said let's do a video together. i do not have time for that. you do all the work and i will join. he is a persistent person. we started out with the idea of a video that started out on rap. i notice on the two that there were 2 million views of the first video. which was the first one? >> [inaudible] >> does that have a lot of hit?

>> it is not about it. that is a high bar. as far as videos about economics, it is pretty good. the most interesting, that video came out a year ago. it was receiving 3000 use a day. that is pretty amazing to me. >> we are going to look mostly today at the second video. what is that called? >> "fight of the century" >> we wanted to go back in history and the role of the great depression and this debate and whether government spending can great prosperity. >> what did you do differently? >> we wanted to make it bigger and better in every way. from a visual and audio way.

the song is a much bigger song. it was done by eddie murphy's brother. this is sort of complementary to the boom and bust. the other was a textbook macro jargon. this is more the political economy and the applied theory. they are talking about how these things impact the real world. you have to talk about the real world and the incentives of politicians. minutes watch the first or so of this. you can dissect it all. >> it is such an honor. >> go right on through. [beeping]

>> identification, please. we have a 1066. >> copy that. >> that is just an example of how to pronounced my name. >> what or be watching? what was that scene? >> one of the things we tried to do is to set of the context for these two personalities. we are also making a little dig at tsa there. this is a big figure in the world of politics and economics. people know his name.

it is part of the vernacular. you have incredibly accomplished economist that do not know much about hyackk he won a nobel prize. it is not like he is a completely dark figure. we wanted to set the table. this is the landscape. >> where they checking into? >> this is the beginning of a congressional hearing. they are on their way in to testify on behalf of the role of government spending. this is the security checkpoint. >> view is cannes? >> she is the most influential economist of the century.

hayek is in the running. he dominated theory. it was for roughly 30 years. one thing somehow went awry, he felt a favor in the '80s and '90s. come the recession, he is back in favor again. he gave people an excuse to spend money in the name of saving things. he had an outsize personality. he used his charm as part of the theme. -- he had a big personality. he used his charm as part of the team. we may can be more popular guy in the videos. hayek is always struggling for respect.

>> ladies and gentlemen. members of the committee, we are here today to consider the impact of government spending on our economy. we are fortunate to have to world renowned economists to offer their testimony on the matter. >> i see you took a detour. talk about the end of laissez faire. prepare for the turn of the master. >> john maynard keynes, hayek, round two. state economists. >> john papola, what are we seeing?

>> the gentleman with the beard and friar tuck is a certain federal chairman. i will leave it to the audience. it is also my dad. >> that is your dad? >> how about the other fellow? >> he is surrounded by people who represent the broker- dealers, the actual big money spenders that the fed interacts with. they have an odd relationship with the agency where they sit on his board but also buy securities with it and sometimes turn to it when they get in a pinch. >> who is the fellow sitting on the right of ben bernanke? someone thought it was timothy geithner.

>> it is not. it is no one in particular. there is no name associated with that particular man in the real world. >> what do you try to accomplish with the video? >> we are trying to get the understanding of the economic argument between these two people and the argument to the keynesian approach reverses the bottom up approach of hayek. most people presume it used the money you create jobs. we argued that did not happen in the past when we stop spending money at the end of world war two and it did not happen with the keynesian model. economists like to pretend it is. when hayek got the nobel prize, he wrote a powerful piece. he said the economy is not a

classic and mastered in college. to think otherwise is a pretense of knowledge. the often act as if it is a precise science. this is what i call scientism. this was our goal. our goal was to think about both sides of this question. and secondly, he got a little skeptical about the science of economics. >> who wrote the song? >> it was us together. it really was. one thing that was exciting about this project is that i was trying to educate myself about economics. he also has written fictional books.

he was a very creative person. it was down the middle writing the lyrics together and bring the ideas to the table. they brought ideas to the table visually. it is a great collaboration and a friendship. >> you live in new york. how to get to know each other? >> we spend a lot of time on the phone and e-mail each other before we met face to face. we wrote two songs before we met face to face. we did not write the music. it was written by a great composer.

>> what are you doing? how did you get to know russ? >> i was a broadcast director at a cable network. i had a lot of great support from my colleagues there. it was a great group of people. essentially, the combination of the election cycle in 2007/2008 and the financial crisis -- that sparked my interest in these ideas and economics. i was very inspired by the ron paul campaign and the way he was talking about -- how many people talk about monetary policy in a political setting other than him? nobody. now it is. the fact that that happened and you had this one voice talking about the role of money in the economy followed by this crash

-- we have ben bernanke for the first time in 90 years do a press conference. that struck me as there is a story here that is not being told. as a media person, i have the tools to tell it in a different way. >> you said the "econtalk" was the way you knew that he existed. what is it? >> it is our podcast. >> where you do it? >> out of my office at george mason. it comes up every week at 6:30 a.m. monday morning. there are about 250 of them appeared >> george mason university here in virginia. it is a podcast? how did you find it? >> you can google it.

you can go to itunes. >> i got into school and started off as a production assistant at mtv and then i worked for nickelodeon of which is where i met my wife. then i went to spike. when i left nickelodeon to go to his bike, he said to come aboard. for the first seven years, i was at spike. >> the first video was released when? >> the end of january 2010. >> that is the one that has a 2

million hits? the other one that we have been watching has about 700,000. >> let's watch a little bit. >> here we are. peace out. great recession thanks to me. we are not in a recession. do not you think it is time for a switch from hair of the dog? it is time to get sober.

♪ >> john papola, who is the chairman supposed to be in congress? anybody? >> that is rich murphy is a great singer. he is awesome. the composer had worked with him before. when we decided we wanted to bring a different element to the song to break up the wrapping with something melodic, richard recommended recommended rich. >> who are the two actors? >> they are improv actors. my wife actually found them. i met her when i was at nickelodeon. she is also a tv professional. we had tried a couple of up and coming wrappers.

it was not quite fitting. soon you commit to it and take the time to get the intuitions right. i said that we need basically two guys that looks somewhat like them and can rap. >> how old are they? >> i think they are in their 20s. they are amazing people. they are hardworking professionals. they are great human beings. they are awesome. >> tell us more about the two characters that they are playing. friedrich hayek was from what country? when did he live? what were the basis that he stood for?

>> he was born in 1899. he was born in austria. he and set spending time in the early part of his time in england. they become friends. that is what we try to bring into this. they were friends. they argued. we have seen the post cards they wrote to each other. they call each other keynes and hayek, by their last names. he winds up in the university chicago. he has a wonderful career. he died in 1992. he was important for a bunch of reasons.

i would prefer a book that most do not recommend. it was an incredible breath of knowledge and interest. it had an impact on economics in the 1930's and 1940's. he was a forgotten figure. he guides a nobel prize. we think his ideas are very important today. >> didn't you graduate from the university of chicago? >> i did. >> did you ever meet him? >> i did not. he was a quiet figure. he was not an important figure in the department. i was required to read one of his most famous articles appeared he rode in 1945. it used to be on reading lists. it probably is not much anymore. it is still an incredibly important paper on how prices steer information.

>> when keynes was educated? >> i ate say he went to cambridge. i want to say he went to cambridge. he said the reverse side treaty was going to lead to disaster. he was right. he also wrote influential books on a probability. his giant work came out in 1936. i have not read it since 1977. >> when did he live? >> he died in 1946. hayek was worried about inflation.

keynes said he would nip it in the bud. they started this inflationary growth. he wound up with the stagflation of the 1970's. we are about to get another dose of that. we will see. >> your education? >> i have an undergraduate degree. it is from penn state. no economics? >> none >> i think it is an advantage. it is a dangerous thing. there is a lot of the gore and economics that can give you a false sense of understanding the world. it is easy to say you have it all in your head and it is a system.

this is how it works. it is a challenge to stay humble about understanding, the more you get into it and the way you eat. that is what attracted me to his podcast so much. not only does he treat his guests with a lot of respect and dignity, but he also approaches his own biases or point of view with a lot of skepticism. there are limits to what we can know. be wary of certainty with regard to the economy. >> which one of the economist is dominating the thought in the united states today? >> it depends on how you look at it. it is still very much keynes.

people who admit fans of his with hayek same. we have reached this in debt ceiling which is a strange wall. it is like the world is going to come crashing down. how can we not spend more money? how can we possibly imagine balancing the budget? there is a keynesian bias that is natural to government. more generally, every time christmas rolls around and people talk about how important the christmas spending is is going to be for the economy, our economy is built on consumption. that is a bizarre idea to think about that consuming what is how we create it. >> what is the biggest difference between being a keynesian and a hayekian? >> we ratcheted up spending dramatically.

the keynesian will say we did not spend enough. >> what would have been enough? >> paul volcker men would have said $2 trillion. there was no word about the implications of that for people's confidence. keynesian tend to look more at the short run. what is important is the political incentive. hayek worried about who is drawn to power and what happens to them once they get in power. the plans of politicians do not always and up at the economics department drawing board. they tend to respond to political incentives. hayek emphasize that. they will get the goods.

>> let's watch some more. before we do that, how long is this video? >> if you include the credit, this is just over 10 minutes. >> some more music. >> ♪

but >> where did you do all of this? >> we filmed the entirety of jersey. this is just part of that. filmmaking is like a giant construction job. drew offered a nice big auditorium where we could stage the boxing scene. it had a chapel light feel of it. that is not the point of it. there was a classic environment or we could have our timeless congressional hearing. >> when did you do it? >> two long days on april 16 and 17th. it was over the weekend. my partner and i -- he had an unbelievable edit already done two days after.

we got very excited about it. we cannot go to sleep. we had to get to work. we debuted only 10 days after we were done shooting. >> how much it cost you? >> well, it should have cost about a quarter of a million dollars. it did not cost that. it was not dramatically below that. we pulled a lot of favors. we did not make money on it. from a production value, how you reproduce that, $250,000 is about right. >> where did you get the money? >> people were excited. it is all free. we have other material of their two. the essays, podcasts, videos we have done with other scholars.

you can watch videos here. i want to reach out to people who we felt with the passionate about this project. it has a great appeal to the high school and college audience. a lot of people are excited about people learning about good economics at the high school and college later. i advertised it. you can donate it there. it all came from private donors to our passion about economic education. >> you are a hayek follower. >> we try to give keynes his due. we tried to be honest. he looks better. he has all kinds of classes but we actually do like hayek. coming to george mason has a

strong interest and austrian economics, my last book is intent to bring the ideas of microeconomics into a fictional context. >> let's see some more video. ♪

>> what does it say on the back of this?

>> this is my proudest contribution to the economy of the video. the day essentially had a version of the debate 100 years before hayek and keynes. it was back and forward. it will not stop. it did not start with them. the debate went that he believed to can have a general collection of goods. there can be over production and insufficient demand for goods in general could cause a recession. that is what a recession was. on the other side, he said spending is not the nature of prosperity or the service of our purchasing power.

the first has to produce something that someone wants. only do that you have the means to purchase other things. i go to my job and make money so i can buy a house and a car. but that its reinterpreted in a strange way as that supply creates its own demands. it sounds a beacon go in your backyard and make a mud pie and someone will buy it. that is not what he was talking about. this is the source of your production power. it collapses because people made some mistakes. it'll fallen to other areas. he will have shifting sectors. i wanted make sure of this.

>> it anybody figure it out? >> we have the teacher. and we have hicks. we were going to feed them in between rounds. we were not quite able to get that in. we wanted to make a tip of them had to their influences. >> when you are writing this kind of stuff, who do you think of as the viewer? >> we try to reach people who are interested in how the world works. everybody from a high school student whose curious about economics to a person who is trying to make a living and get along into is worried about what is going on in the country. we tried to make these lyrics accessible and a little bit amusing. i have to admit, i still enjoy

listening to it. it is clear. i not a rap fan. i am getting into. i get e-mails from adults saying that now they are into rap now and their kids are into economics. we get them into these ideas. this is why we did this. it is very gratifying. how do you test it to see if they understood it? >> i do not do test groups.

that compromises the logistics of it. sometimes you get the shot you want. you have to rethink the way it happens. >> the first one you did was in new york in the snow. what is almost never happens. >> is there any money being made on showing this? >> no. >> we have almost a two-minute clip of the discussion of wall street and bailout government oversight. it shows hayek giving keynes a big punch.

why boxing? how did you set that up? >> they had a strong metaphor. they have the drinking and the parties and a hangover the day after. we were trying to establish that this fight and this debate is timeless. this is why stylistically the look is golden and nostalgic even in the senate hearing that is modern day. i hope that people watch it and say that when it ended back in 2009, it is a prevalent as someone said the recession back in 1933. it is a motif. it was a borad playground for

us to have these ideas. >> it gives us a chance to make a little joke at the end. we decide you have the best arguments. >> he really wanted to shoot a boxing scene. >> if somebody is watching and they want to watch both of them, where do they go? >> they can go to econstories.tv. in fact, i do not know i should be apologetic. if you google keynes, our video comes up in the first page. >> here is two more minutes.

>> where did you get the actors? all the extras? >> they know how to get things

done. at this point, we had already had a decent following. we reached out to our fans. my wife coordinated with this. we wanted to be a part of it. it is not just a group of background extras. >> what are these names? >> you say they are not 30 yet. where did they learn how to dance that way? >> you know what? they actually do comic rap on their own. there have albums of their own. they have been doing this kind of thing for some time.

>> when did you get interested in the podcasts and things like that? >> i remember when someone said we ought to have a blog. i did not know about that. then i realized i should. that would be fun. when i heard about this, someone invited me to do this. i said i would not be late to this. i jumped in with "econtalk." people said no one will want to hear anybody talk about this for an hour. five minutes is a long time on radio. there is a big taste in demand for serious learning. it is not expo. it is not clashing. it is a conversation. this is the way we are hard wired. we talk and listen.

i tried to ask the questions they would ask. this was an obvious thing. i noticed people were not reading as much as they used to. obviously, the bid price was already video. i am -- the big prize was yardy video. -- the big price was yardy video. we spend a lot of time on these projects. it is a blessing to do. they understand what i understand. they have the same deals. i think about what it would have been like in 1985. this was 16 years ago that we came up with this idea. we would have created the dvd. how have we reached people with this. we would have gotten people to fast forward and by a bit. we now have about 3 million. they have been subtitled.

>> it was an illustrious crowd. make it difficult for. that is the problem with the macroeconomics.

>> it was already written. it ended up not being there. they added it much more. it was like the sneak preview of the next one. >> here is the last section of this music video. it is about two minutes. ♪

>> you said that is your sister that is holding the microphone. >> yes, my sister and my mother. >> where is your mother in this video? >> she is in the crowd in some of the earlier shots. >> you play back the song on sets. you sing-along to make sure that it is synchronized with the picture. in order for the performance to

work, they do have to sing it there. if you don't, our eyes are so attuned to the subtle changes in your face that comes from singing verses not singing. they have to belted out and really perform it live. >> if you are there in the room as it is being done, do you film this or tape it? >> these are beautiful cameras. if you are in the room, you hear them singing along with the actual sound on the speaker. >> that is right. >> you mentioned earlier this session. there are two stories. one is the making of the big deal. we will go back to something he mentioned about the liberty fund. >> i looked on the board. i only recognized one name.

who are these folks? what is the liberty fund? >> it was treated by a businessman. he was interested in the great books and dialogue. he was interested in education. they published reworks of economics. these are liberty fund editions. there are other great books like this. scholars and sit around and talk about ideas. then you have a web page. the podcast is there. we have all kinds of great works of economics. we have carl marks. we have some adam smith. we have the entire work said dave ricardo -- works of dave ricardo.

>> it is the endowment over time. they did not raise money. i love your podcast. can i get the money? >> >> i would probably take it. >> how did you educate yourself about economics? >> the podcast played a big role. also, just reading books. i have a long commute. >> how long is it? >> four hours every day. >> you would go from where to wear every day? >> new jersey into manhattan. i listened to a lot.

there were textbooks. i watched an intro macro class. it was interesting. >> we have a clip of the first video you did which is already 8 million views. it was released when? last april? >> in january 25, 2010. >> it is the old one. that would be nice. >> i am sure of it. set up what this was about. >> this is almost an intro buzz word festival for keynesian economics. you have keynes step through

the basic framework for his theory and how it can get unemployment. they go through their employment which is bigger. there is the role of monetary policy. it makes sense that it would have that effect. the cycle that the fed creates causes investments. this is about a minute 18.

>> what a phrase has become well known? >> among certain circles, [inaudible]

it appears [inaudible] the more than one e-mail signature? >> why? >> austrian economics is a lineage of these thinkers. they came from austria. that was the mainstream before keynes. they have been allocated to the sidelines. like any group, he developed a loyal following. apple is mainstream now but was not always. a good slogan goes a long way for people who feel like they are not getting heard. >> when i got into preparing for this show, i started to drown in all the different website and blog. we talked earlier about "cafe

hayek" what is that? >> that is my blog about the issues of the day. >> what level? >> graduates. this semester i'm teaching a seminar on adam smith. >> did they have to watch your videos? >> they are all fans. they told me about it. they like it. >> john papola, "econtalk" is what? >> it is my podcast. it is everyday people, business leaders. >> how many of them are they? >> they are very interested in education. there are about 250. >> are there one or two that have really taken off? >> i interviewed milton friedman twice. those were popular. he has been on this 19 times.

[unintelligible] he is a frequent guest on my podcast. we cast him as the security guard. he is a big fan of the videos. he wanted to be part of it. he has cameos in both of them. >> what has been the most enjoyable part of this for you? >> i think maybe the most enjoyable is an impact on the ideas. they empower it. we have gotten so much mail and messages from people that are discovering economics in the

way i did but through our videos. to sort of have discovered these ideas in this bizarre way for myself and they can to be back to that sort of community and that full of knowledge is really amazing. i get emotional thinking about the fact that i am fortunate enough to get to do this. >> what is next? >> i do not know. we are at the end of that. we spent a lot of time thinking about that last 35 seconds. it might be the last time we see keynes and hayek on the screen. we know them personally, but to me they are keynes hayek and probably. i hope we will collaborate on something different.

>> [unintelligible] >> i think that we have managed to cover a lot of ground with these two. the best thing we can do for them and for these videos is to give them a chance to be covered and jokes for the ideas that serve around them. there is a lot of stuff in these two videos. there are other issues to cover. i will not count out the possibility every turn. but sometimes it is good to go away from them. when you come back, at you are that much more excited to see them return. >> john papola, russ roberts.

you can find these video youtube.com thank you very much for joining us. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] >> for a dvd copy of this program, called 1-877-662-7726. q &a programs are available as podcast. s.

>> next, live, your calls and comments on "washington journal." live at 10:00 a.m., rep michelle bachmann of minnesota makes her official presidential bid. >> next month, we will be able to remove 10,000 of our troops from afghanistan by the end of this year. we will bring home a total of 33,000 troops by next summer. >> the time line on the war in afghanistan answer to over 4000 entries on line at the cspan video library. search, watch, clip, and share every cspan program since 1987 all free anytime. it is washington your way. >> this morning, the bipartisan policy center examines the state of the u.s. economy as lawmakers negotiated dealraise the debt c then fox news correspondents catherine herridge