in resettlement. many are fed up with the situation back home. they like to play an active role in promoting some sort of dialogue in their country. i think that maybe some of the solutions to somalia may come from the diaspora. host: nearly 900,000 somalis are currently refugees. you can see it on this map. the countries most affected, kenya, ethiopia, djibouti, down to tanzania. how they getting across the borders? is there any border control? is it mostly walking? by their tribes walking across the border? guest: they are walking. there is no smuggling. people walk on their own. it is a long border. there are border control posts, but there was no possibility for

a country like kenya to control entire border. it is a long walk. in countries like ethiopia, the border is better guarded. they have a problem with eritrea, so they have a better capacity to control the border. you have landmines also between eritrea and ethiopia and some of the refugees are going through these writs to get to ethiopia. those coming to yemen are going by boat. often these people are exploited by all sorts of the smugglers and thugs abusing the people on their way to yemen. host: guest: host: how much of this is

tribal? guest: the chance are very important. even the subclan affiliation is important in somalia. so the clanic structure of the country is not necessarily been a very factor enforced during national dialogue in the country. host: mr. cochetel, are there any other refugee situations in the world that you'd like to bring our attention to, not on this scale necessarily, but other ones we should be aware of? guest: i think one to keep in mind is the afghan refugee. that's the largest refugee situation. you know, pakistan, other countries in the region have provided asylum and services for afghan refugees. host: does that include iran? guest: yes, that includes iran. since the afghan invasion of afghanistan. we odd to see a good response to those refugees because

unfortunately last year not that many -- we ought to see a good response to those refugees because unfortunately last year not that many -- host: vincent cochetel, united nations high commissioner for refugees. we are now going to go live to the house hearing, it's the house foreign affairs hearing on africa. representative chris smith representative of new jersey is the chair. this is the humanitarian crisis in sudan. [captioning performed by natonal captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] >> sudanese attacks on north members on the sued niece state were increasing. because of the fighting and of the displacement of sued niece and foreigners, no one is estimating how many people have been killed in the area. we do nor that 73,000 people have been displaced. whatever the numbers involved we can be sure that the people, including the nuba people, have

been catastrophic. this latest violence is a tragic presumption of a prior war on the car human government by nubu. they began an eradication campaign against the nub a pitting northern arabs against africans in the south. unfortunately for the nuba, they are not southerners even though they have fought with the southern army during the north-south civil war, but neither are they accepted by the elements ruling the north. even though many of them are muslims. this left them to suffer, the onslaught of the car human government. cultural cleansing pursued by the government involved, harsh attempts to depopulate areas, hurting survivors into tightly controlled government so-called refugee camps. when jihad was declared by the government of sudan in 1992, --

were not true muslims. rape of nuba women have been an essential component of the government aimed at destroying the social fabric rft society. almost every woman that's been in car human's so-called peace camps reportedly was either raped or threatened with rape. according to the united nations office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs, between 30,000 and 40,000 people out of a population of 60,000 in the compap of kaguli has -- kadugli -- artillery fire was done by sudanese people.

are there were reports as recently as july 27 of aerial bombings forcing civilians to flee into the nuba bombings. i point out that one of our witnesses today, bradford philips rft persecution project, earlier this week on monday brought with us very, very troubling evidence, eyewitness that he gleamed being there for two weeks. when we hear about reports, here is a man that saw it. it's the reason it was the genesis of this hearing today. his sense that we need to do something to bring focus and cute knee and hopefully action to this plague. some are trying to downplay the role of the sudanese government for the devastation taking

place in southern area to negotiate with khartoum. there is no moral equivalence between the sblm north action and those of the bashir government. sblm are not bombing people indiscriminantly, not driving arabs off their land and their homes, nor going door to door in order to execute their enemies. the government of sudan's military forces are and we will soon see photographic evidence of these atrocities. in addition, this will have a longtime affect on people feeding themselves. in ken yarks ethiopia, people are suffering from drought made worse by conflict. in southern court fan, the national government are creating a similar humanitarian crisis.

the death and destruction to which sudanese africans have been subjected was thought to have ended with the signing of the comprehensive peace agreement in 2005 to end the north-south civil war. however, the genocide in darfur diverted the attention away from the unresolved issues between north rand south. these lingering points of contention threatens to derail independence for south sudan just as the independence process was coming to a conclusion. and now the struggle over abia threatens the pleas for help that is arriving from the nuba people as they are dragged into a resumption of the northern war against them. we discussed this war during the subcommittee's june 16 hearing on south sudan. at that time the southern in

kordofan. again, i welcome the testimony to reveal the depth of this tragedy and to discuss ways to address the suffering of this particular region of sudan. i'd like to now yield to my good friend and colleague, mr. payne, for any opening comments. >> thank you very much. and let me commend you, mr. chairman, for calling this very important hearing. i just rushed here from an earlier meeting that was called on the problem of somalia and the drought that is going on there. and so i appreciate the chairman given the attention to this region which, of course, because of our pressing problems here in the u.s. sand we do know that we have a primary obligation to our nation to make it strong and to

correct some of the errors that we made in the past, we still cannot forget that we have a world that's really being shattered by unshared bread and that we have a responsibility still as it says in the bible to be our brothers' keeper and so i know it's difficult to focus on areas outside of our immediate problems, but i do appreciate the chairman keeping the issues before our nation because we do, i believe, have an obligation. less than a month ago the world witnessed the birth of a new nation, the rep rick of south sudan. i was among the delegation present at the ceremony. and i witnessed the joy of the people of vouth sudan that day. many decades of struggle,

struggle before independence, struggle since independence in 1956, struggle with the civil war that broke out in 1989, struggles that continued until the c.p.a. was signed in 2005, and struggles up until the conclusion of the referendum on july 9, 2011, when independence was announced and celebrated. and so it -- it's been a struggle for the people of south sudan, and the struggle continues. the sudanese people accomplished a great deal in their celebration and it's well deserved and certainly overdue. the peaceful nature of the -- the peaceful nature in which 98.8% of south sudanese voted for their independence was commendable.

and to serve as a witness to what sudanese people are capable of -- as a matter of fact, voter registration was probably in excess of 90% also. it's recorded that this turnout even exceeded the turnout of south africa when they had their first election when mr. mandela was candidate for president of a new south africa. so we have to really commend the people of south sudan for their determination and their appreciation for democracy. unfortunately, though, persistent violence in south rordofan and other border areas remind us that important work still remains to be done to ensure peace within both countries, north and south sudan. and a peaceful relationship between the neighboring states.

in june the subcommittee convened to discuss the challenges that the pending nation of south sudan would face. we're now on the other side of the independence celebration and are witnessing some of the challenges that southerners living in the north are facing. in today's hearing we will be focusing on the disputed region of south kordofan and the human rights violations that are occurring at the hands of president bashir against the nubian people. as you know the map was drawn in 156 or prior to that and when the british game independence on january 1 of 19 56 the lines were drawn. had they been drawn today we would know that south kordofan and abia and the nuba mountains would indeed be part of south sudan. people in those areas fought alongside the sblm and feel a

part of the south. however, the lines have been drawn and they find themselves in the north. however, they were supposed to be accommodation -- there were supposed to be accommodation made so there was discussion on what type of arrangement could be made in kordofan and south kordofan. however, the popular consultation has not taken place. the refer dumb abia. so we have problems that insist that persist today. in today's hearings we will be -- referendum. in abia. so we have problems that persist today. in kordofan, millions are been affected by the south armed

forces and the sudanese people's liberation movement north. thousands of innocent civilians have been killed and hundreds of thousands have been displaced. there are disturbing reports of killing of nuba people in mass graves. s.a.f. are searching homes for stlm supporters and then detaining, torturing and killing them. these are allde of ethnic cleansing. unfortunately the s.a.f. are armed to do the job. they're using heavy weapons including artilleries, helicopters, m.i.g. fighters and russian made bombers to hunt the nubans like animals, as it was said. the violence that's occurring is by no means an isolated. bashir has done this many, many times before in darfur, in eastern congo -- in eastern sudan and here in south

kordofan. my first visit to sudan in 1993 in spla controlled border there at the time was the frontline and i saw the firsthand suffering of the people in that area. when i returned i introduced a resolution saying that the people of south sudan had the right of self-determination and that began the whole notion of a new nation. with deep sadness, i remember visiting abia in may of 2008 just after the town had been attacked and turned to the ground by the bashir forces and pro-government militia. the atrocity displaced more than 40,000 people and upon return i introduced a resolution to highlight this heinous act of violence that continues with the war indicted al-bashir. in late may, at the order of bashir, they killed over 100 and displacing an estimated 100,000 in abia.

south african president showed considerable restraint thus far because he does not want to have a war that would interfere with the peaceful resolution, a resolution of the crisis. we must remember the human costs of these acts of regression. the people abia, southern kordofan have suffered for years. violence and oppression continues. let us also not forget the ongoing crisis in darfur where many remain in displaced camps and malnutrition and without any way to support their families due to the oppressive government of the bashir people and the military tactics. i, along where my fellow sudanese caucus co-chair are circulating a letter to president obama urging him to condemn the violence in southern kordofan.

we must use all available diplomatic and political tools to combat these human rights abuses, including possible sanctions and other accountable measures. it is also important that the united states properly fund aid programs and peacekeeping missions that are helping to save countless lives. prote posed foreign and aid budget cuts would hinder our ability to provide relief to these affected areas and help bring stability to the prestige. that is why during foreign operations bill markup last months i proposed an amendment that would have increased funding for the u.n. peacekeeping budget to the president's request of $1.92 billion and to add $60 million to be set aside for a contingency fund specifically to address these atrocities that we are now seeing in southern kordofan and other border regions. i'm interested to hearing from our panel on how the budget cuts would affect the work that they're doing.

i'm also encouraged to see that today president obama announced a new initiative directing is a comprehensive review to strengthen the united states' ability to prevent mass atrocities. this new initiative will include the creation of the atrocities prevention board that will have the authority to develop prepresentation strategies to aid the u.s. and its allies in responding to early warning signs and prevent potential atrocities. the president has issued a proclamation barring persons who organize or participate in war crimes, crimes against humanities and serious violations of human rights from entering the united states of america. i applaud the government in recognizing the atrocities in sudan and around the world. the people celebrated with the people of south sudan and rightfully know. the united states and people here like mr. wolf and others have played such an important

role in what we see today. and so we have a -- we are a critical partner in the sue dran peace process, as we all though. while our efforts had been fruitful, our work to ensure stability and prosperity for all sudanese people is far from complete. we must remain engaged and commit our support to democracy, rule of law, justice and peace with the people of sudan whichever side of the border they live. thank you very much. >> a statement. i recognize ms. buerkle from new york, a member of the subcommittee. >> thank you for having this hearing. just reading the testimony is a sobering reminder that the suffering of the sudanese people is ongoing. although it's important to celebrate the new nation of sudan, we can't forget their fellow south. it's been set by slaughter and

disease and heartbreak for decades. it's frankly unfathomable that the peace people who were responsible for the darfur genocide are still in position of authority, still carrying out their horrific war crimes. and now with the struggles between the north and south sudan over abaia, it is destabilizing an already fragile region. and that destabilization means the cost of thousands of lives and presents a serious threat to not only the nuba mountains and contested areas but also to the newly born south sudan. thank you to our witnesses for being here today. , to share what you have learned first harned. thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> ms. buerkle, thank you very much. the chair recognizes chairman wolf. >> i want to be very, very brief. i want to thank the witnesses. i want to thank you both you and mr. payne for having this

hearing so fast. i almost have never seen so many turn around. when the two of you got together. i thank -- i personally want to thank both of you. i think it's incredible, your interest in how the two of you work together and deserve a lot of credit. lastly, i'd say to the church in the west, i think the church in the west has to do a better job for advocating for the persecuted church. i see one of the witnesses representing -- richard, i read his books over the years and visited once in romania. the silence of the church in the west is actually incredible. when i think it was taken place to that part of the country, that part of the world and others and yet i hear total complete silence is incredible. hopefully this request motivate not only the administration but also the church, the leaders of

all of the denominations to advocate for this. we'll see what comes out of this. i thank the witnesses. i want to thank you and mr. payne for just, you know, working together, getting this work done right away. somebody comes up, an area, and 48 hours later we have a hearing. so thank you very much and yield back. >> thank you very much. chairman wolf, let me introduce our very distinguished panel of witnesses today beginning with bishop andudu. andudu adam einail. conflict of the south kordofan. he declares the interfaith community for this war-torn region. he's been outspoken and courageous. in a recent interview with bishop andudu, religious dispatchers right if bishop andudu had not been in denver in medical treatment in early june he might be in a mass grave now. that's how volatile and how

dangerous the situation is today and, again, we are deeply indebted that he is here, flew here and will be provided this subcommittee and hopefully the entire congress and by extension the american people very, very important insights and will be a rallying cry for action. we'll then here from mr. bradford philips who serves as president of the persecution project foundation. and as a sudan country director for the voice of the mortgage arse, two nonprofit organizations dedicated to serving the persecuted clurch. i'd point out that in 1980 i read richard's book "torture for cries" who suffered under the dictator of romania. spent years of being tore turd. he and other believers and that's what got me involved in religious freedom issues after reading that book. mr. philips is the -- one of the leaders of -- voice of the

martyrs, the group that continues that work and also is founder and president of the persecution project. since 1998, mr. philips has helped document acts of genocide committed by the government of sudan while also insisting in humanitarian efforts in southern kordofan. he spent two years interviewing victims of genocide. on monday this congress bring light, scrutiny and hopefully an action plan and the president and the state department to try to mitigate this terrible, terrible, worsening situation in south kordofan. he's also founder of 100 wells campaign, the humanitarian project that provides clean water to darfur refugees. then we'll hear from dr. luka biong who is president of kush, incorporated. he's published numerous

articles in international journals addressing these issues. founding member and chairperson of the boarder of directors of the abia community for development. dr. deng serves as minister of cabinet affairs for the government of sudan and member of presidential affairs for southern sudan. also worked for the world bank and for southern sudan centers for census, statistics and evaluation. again, thank you all for being here on such extraordinarily short notice. i'd like to begin with the bishop, if i could and please proceed, as you like. >> thank you, chairman smith, for calling this emergency hearing on human rights and human security in my home region of south kordofan. >> if you can pull the microphone closer or make sure that -- >> i also want to thank the

ranking member for the endangered nuba people as well. i'm here to testify about my people and my members of my church and the flock. they just give me time. i want to start with what happened in my diocese and in my town of kadugli, the many atrocities taking place. my house was shared with guns and my chaplain was able to escape through the window and also my offices was burned down . under the atrocities taking place, not only the christians but also even the muslims and the mosques has been bombed for the black muslims. so -- and one of my flocks told

me very clearly he has seen the movement in the south. -- in the even they brought bodies in the location. and also some people working with red cross. people were put in body bags and put on the beach. so he's seen this personally and i talked to him many times and i really believe what he's saying. and this is consistent with the image that was taken with the satellite and really i appeal

for the united states so that we can prevent the eyewitness and for the north government with the mass graves that were found and also call for an investigation to find out exactly what's taking place. in the nuba mountains the children are killed, the bombings -- the war of horror. so to really creating ethnic cleansing in the nuba mountains, every day i go to different cities south of kordofan, and we see people running in the mountains and know that they're in the caves. i was given a photo last week where people just eat greens. eat greens and there is no

food. and at the same time this is very important time for us in the nuba mountains. we are cultivating this is the beginning of the season. so if you have not died by the bombs, in next october, the time of -- we will not have any food. and then also you will die. that's why we are calling for the u.n., gofert and other international communities and -- government and other international communities and the african union, these are the people to help sign the c.p.a., and we are very grateful for the people of south sudan but at the same time nuba mountains is left struggling. and i want the u.s. government really to go farther and to secure our people in the nuba mountains. the bombs gets dropped every day. really, we need the government and international community to stop these bombings. they're killing people.

so if this can be stopped to spare the lives of people, it's not thrown on the military but it's thrown on the civilians. and in places where it is not near the barracks of the soldiers. at the same time the government is not allowing the humanitarian access. there is no organization that's going to give food. they were forbidin. i'm also calling for the international community and the u.s. to make any ways for their humanitarian to get access to give aid of food and also to keep the missions for the injured people in the nuba mountains. at the same time, the u.n. troops in south kordofan, they were threatened with the government of bashir. they've been told now they have

to move. they were not allowed to go and investigate the mass graves. and really we want the increase on also effective peacekeepers in the nuba mountains. the people of nuba, they want peace. but they were forced to fight, to defend their people. and nuba people are fearing. they don't know what's going to happen. they feel they're forgot able because nothing is gone their -- -- and bashir and haroon, these are people that are wanted by the international court. -- the crimes in darfur.

they are the same people. we create peace and sign peace in other parts of the region, like in southern sudan when the c.p.a. was signed, they start war in darfur. and also know when the south ceased, they started war in the nuba mountains. this is the type of government we have been dealing with for over 20 years. this government is just killing people. their own people. and people continue to engage. peace will be broken. we are not alone calling for the international community to help us but all the people in the world like here we have the petition of our -- over half million of the people around the world, they are striving and calling for the stop and ethnic cleansing in the nuba mountains. so we are calling for really action in the region of the nuba mountains and other

marginalized areas. thank you. >> bishop, thank you very much for your testimony and for your urgent appeal to the united states and the world, the intent of the community to respond and to do so immediately. >> chairman smith, ranking member payne and members of the subcommittee, thank you very much for inviting me to testify at this emergency hearing on the current crisis of the nuba mountains of the southern kordofan state in the republic of sudan. my name is bradford philips and here on behalf of two organizations that have relatively long histories working in sudan. the first is persecution project, as mentioned, and the second is voice of the martyrs and much of our emphasis has been on sudan in more than the last decade. my very first trip to sudan brought me to the nuba mountains. after reading the reports of

the genocide that was happening there, alex duwal, julie flinton had reports. i heard about the extermination of over half the population. that was my first introduction to sudan. there were bombings going on every day that was part of an aerial campaign of terror against civilians. mr. chairman, i realize that you and your colleagues are only now concluding a very busy time, considering the recent debate on raising the debt ceiling. i want to thank you for the time for hearing about this extremely different issue which is a nonpartisan issue. it's an issue of genocide. genocide currently being perpetrated in the nuba mountains in the southern kordofan state of the republic of sudan. i know you've had the opportunity several times to receive testimony on this issue from my learned friend roger

winter, who acted in many different capacities, including former special representative of sudan. and during his last testimony on the 16th of june he reported to you on in war of genocide now being waged in the nuba. i'm here simply to say everything that mr. winter presented in his testimony about southern kordofan state is true. i've seen it with my own eyes. less than three weeks after mr. winter's testimony, i was in the nuba mountains for 12 days. i fully understand at what is happening right now in the nuba mountains requires some context and some background. and i appreciate very much the long history that you've had, mr. chairman, and preab payne and congressman wolf and so many others on this committee on this issue. but for the sake of others, in 1989, through a coup d'etat, the national islamic front came to power in sudan. and its leadership consisted of

islamic extremists, many of them were founding members of al qaeda. they were birthed by the muslim brotherhood. they were identified by our government as terrorists or supporters of international terrorism. and as soon as the national islamic front came to power it began an intensive military campaign to arabize and muslimize the national african people of the blue nile, the nuba mountain region of southern kordofan state and more recently in darfur. during the 1990's up until the peace agreement was signed in navasha in 2005, more than 2,000 sudanese people, most of whom were christian or others were slaughtered. but in the nuba mountains in the 1980's and the 1990's roughly half the population, an estimated more than 500,000 people were slaughtered in a similar genocide. and all of us i think are aware of the genocide that took place in darfur beginning in 2003 that claimed an estimated

400,000 lives. the primary resistance of the national islamic front during the last war came from the sudanese people liberation movement that was led by dr.. dr. john was a christian from south sudan but he desired freedom and self-determination for all of the sudanese people. and his vision was called the new sudan. after more than 20 years of fighting, the splm fought the national islamic front to a stand still and with the help of international pressure, much of it led by the united states, the n.i.f. was forced to the negotiating table. and all of that was consummated in january of 2005 with the comprehensive peace agreement signed in naivasha, kenya. this provided south sudan with some autonomy and self-referendum which resulted in the welcoming in of south sudan most recently on july 9.

while we do celebrate with south sudan, its independence from this murderous regime, we must not forget that many marginalized groups in the north were not given the same guarantees as the south. specifically the iba region -- abyei region in south chord in an state, also the nuba mountains also in southern kordofan and the blue nile state received impolicity promises for self-determination and for -- as well as some explicit promises in this agreement. but its subsequent actions have showed during the interim national congress party really had no intention of granting self-determination to these marginalized areas. under the c.p.a. the nuba were guaranteed a free election, a gubernatorial election. most recently was supposed to take place may of this year, followed by a popular consultation whereby elected leaders would interview their constituents and determine what the people wanted to do with

regard to their political future. this consultation process would hopefully have paved the way for a regime change or some sort of power sharing arrangement in khartoum that would recognize and respect the rights of all of sudan's diverse communities in southern kordofan state. as of today the popular consultation that was promised by the c.p.a. has not taken place. moreover, sudan's president, omar al-bashir, publicly stated in april this year that if the national congress party could not get its way at the ballot box it would use the ammo box. he went on to say he would smoke them -- the nuba people out of the mountains using tanks and camels. this was really a declaration of war on the 27th of april by omar al-bashir. and it was a violation -- a clear violation of the comprehensive peace agreement. earlier that month of april, as an intimidation tactic, and i believe is an attempt to draw

the splm into war before the election, bashir sent militia forces to an area called al-fate, which is the home area of the commander and 27 members of his family were murdered in this attack. he didn't take the bait and he went through with the elections. when the elections finally took place, the evidence of large scale vote rigging was reported, yet, even with the evidence of vote fraud, bashir jumped a few steps and sent down his advisor to declare their candidate war criminal haroon the winner without any verification process taking place. the newly elected governor then ruled all asplm forces out of

southern kordofan by the first of june. this order was in direct violation of the c.p.a. which allowed the spla to operate in southern kordofan up to 90 days until the close of the interim period. this attempt to cleanse the north of the spla before the independence of south so you dan was also carried out in the disputed abyei region. after massing troops around the b.a., they forced most of the indigenous african population out. some estimates are as high as 100,000. it became obvious to all watching these events unfold what was happening. it's no wonder that the s. splm refused to leave the southern kordofan state. when it was not obeyed they tried to disarm the splm by

force. on june 6, the n.c.p. attacked and sacked the capital of kadugli murdering in subsequent days. they pulled out the daily indiscriminant aerial bombardment of civilian. using bombers, m.i.g. fighters and helicopter gun ships, they launched a campaign of terror from the skies. i've included some pictures of these bomb locations which i think are playing now on the screen. bombing -- bombing civilians. i personally arrived in the nuba on the fourth of july in one of the few private charters that was flying to the nuba since all humanitarian flights had ceased. and during my visit i had the opportunity to spend time with an interview more than a dozen individuals who had escaped from kadugli during the first

few days after the ethnic cleansing started and all of whom shared the same basic story, the one which the reverend has shared and which you will hear from others. sue dran armed forces went from house to house searching for any nuba citizen, anyone who was identified with the church or anyone who was associated with the splm. and anybody fitting either of these three descriptions was either killed on the spot or arrested and never seen again. fortunately a few thousand people -- the campaign after being filled and i heard many stories and accounts of people being killed at the gates of this compound as a result of the -- to enter the compound and take nuba people out of that compound. while they stood by and watched. i had the opportunity to spend

time with one of the colleagues of reverend luka biong deng who is the chairman of the sudan council of churches and he escaped from kadugli. i submitted the video of my interview with him before the committee, they are targeting the church in this war. reverend luka received a call from some of his friends after getting out of the first escaping to an area of shaier. they basically told him that he was on the list which is what the bishop here has told me as well. meaning that if they find him, if they catch him, they're going to kill him. reverend luka's testimony corresponded with so many others that i received from nuba christians and non-christians alike who were persecuted in the last war by the same regime. i have a story of one man i met

whose fingernails were pulled out. his genitals were crushed. he was dragged behind a tank. he was thrown -- he was in and out of prison for eight years. and what he pointed out to me was this is a the very same regime that did this to him that's now bombing his village. and we saw the planes passing over three or four times a day. reverend luka said the n.p.c. does not distinguish -- in addition, they do not distinguish between a christian and a member of the splm political party. they assume if you're associated with the church that in fact you must be splm and spla. this was the testimony we got from so many pastors that we interviewed when they captured them, the first thing they did they asked them for a list of all the members of their congregation. because if you're part of the church you're the enemy. consequently even today pastors and church leaders are being specifically targeted as

leaders and recruiters of the splm. another pastor who i interviewed whom i will refer to as kumi, for security reasons, was arrested by the n.e.f., tore turd in some of the most horrific ways and as mentioned he was forced to divulge the name of his church members. during his capture, which i mentioned, they pulled out his fingernails, they hung him by his neck and crushed his genitals. he this did many other cruel acts. this pastor was in prison for a total of eight years and although he lived several hours drive from the area where reverend luka was from, his testimony was the same. yet, another church leader i met in a completely different area was stabbed 10 times. his name was mussa.

they stabbed him 10 times. he told me that he was killed along with seven other elders and pastors in his church. they destroyed his church. they stabbed him 10 times. he actually -- they believed he was dead but he survived, and each one of the people that they killed, they cut off their ear as a trophy to go and take back to show what they have done. and his message to me was again was that these are the same people that are bombing us today. these are the same people that are cutting off people's heads and slaughtering people like animals in kadugli and if they have their way they will exterminate us. so i heard these stories over and over again during the 12 days that i was in the nuba mountains. the only difference in what i saw in 1998 and what i saw last month is that the splm has clearly taken the initiative and taken the fight as it were

to their enemies led by their leader, the commander. the people of the nuba mountains are fighting back and have won some impressive victories on the ground. this has occurred without any significant hurt from the international community. this determined resistance by the splm in the nuba mountains is a genuine popular uprising. and the only thing that's prevented another rwandan style genocide from happening but time is running out. the u.n. end its humanitarian relief efforts in early june and most n.g.o.'s operating under the u.n. umbrella pulled out. all the roads to the north have been closed, and the rainy season in south sudan has effectively closed supply routes to the south until the end of the season in november, december. the daily bombings have terrorized the local populations to a degree that normal cultivation is not taking place during this very crucial planting season.

the nuba mountains are isolated, cut off and facing a very severe humanitarian crisis within the next 60 days or less unless relief flights are allowed to recommence. and this will not happen while bombers and gun ships continue to patrol the guys. the n.c.p. refuses people to document what is happening which should not surprise anyone. it's absolutely essential that the international community bring pressure to bear on the united nations to immediately declare humanitarian emergency in the nuba mountains and impose a no-fly zone to stop the bombing campaign and allow humanitarian access so that relief flights back into the region may resume. i'll conclude by stating, there's more than enough evidence to justify speedy action on the part of the united states government and the international community to address this very dire situation in the nuba mountains. the president of sudan, omar

al-bashir, is an indicted war criminal. the current governor of the nuba mountains is haroon, also an indicted war criminal, because of his role in the darfur genocide. in fact, he was the one carrying out the genocide in the nuba mountains in the 1990's. these men make libya's gaddafi look like a choir boy. there is no reason why we should bomb libya while we do nothing in the nuba mountains. many seasoned reporters from "the new york times," "alzheimer's english" and "the independent" were with me in the nuba mountains, some with me during my time there. they brought back pictures, video that crab rate and prove natwar crimes are being committed right now against the nuba people. i've included some copies with my testimony and ask the -- corroborate and prove that war

crimes are being committed right now against the nuba people. i've included some copies with my testimony. why do they treat them with a moral equivalency? based on the n.c.p. and what they're doing in darfur, in abyei, and the nuba mountains, it's clear how the international community is able to tolerate these killers for so long yet aggressively pursue other villain who is have not killed 1/100 of the people for whose deaths omar al-bashir and his regime are responsible. three million lives and counting, when will we say enough? >> thank you very much for that very powerful testimony. dr. deng. >> i thank you for inviting me to testify today. good morning, chairman smith and ranking member -- >> dr. deng, if you can pull

that closer and make sure the microphone is on. >> it's on. i thank you for inviting me today and thank you, chairman smith and ranking member payne and other distinguished members of the committee. it is indeed an honor for you to focus on this important issue. i welcome and honor the opportunity to provide my thoughts in talking about south sudan and people of the nube i.t.a. mountains. i am currently serving as an executive director of kush, inc. it's a governmental organization trying to promote peace and stability. the relationship between africa and the u.s. but indeed focusing on abyei and southern sudan.

mr. chairman, i am one of the people who participated in the organization of the peace agreement. but even importantly, i was negotiating even the peace -- the protocol of the two areas. and i want to echo again what happened during the peace agreement. the people of nuba mountain not only participated in the -- indeed even the -- given to them by the c.p.a. it was to have the right of self-determination but did not get it. and so determined. having the full cooperation as a step for them to pursue the right of self-determination. but i want to share with you today -- before i become the executive director of kush, i served as senior administrator of national government as a member of government affairs.

mr. chairman, on the 21th of may of this year, after omar al-bashir and his government invaded abyei and when he invaded abyei i saw thousands of people marching out, people, children, going for days. and i saw clearly a pattern -- a clear pattern of a leadership focusing on selectively targeting its own people. it started with darfur. but coming through to abyei but also in southern kordofan. ethnic cleansing, a clear case of the african people in that country being displaced and the arabs being -- it's real

atrocities against humanity in sudan. and i say -- share this, mr. chairman, because the nuba mountain is the pattern that's happening along the north-south border and that's why i think we should widen it in order to look at the bored enbetween the north and the south. what is happening is unacceptable. and this is going to continue throughout the border region of the north-south, but we should remember there's another region facing the same soon, which is the blue nile. i appreciate the opportunity you have provided me today to discuss the current situation in southern kordofan and the recommendation that the people of this great country, america,

can do with the alarming situation in sudan. but it's very important to look at the hopeful picture that's emerging in the south. and that's why i would like to look at those issues as well. mr. chairman, as echoed and mentioned by congressman payne, i see the people of southern sudan, when we talk about stability and feas, we should look -- peace, we should look at the relationship. southern sudan is a reflection of the marginalized people who suffered many to get their independence. but indeed what we are seeing nuba mountain, it's echoing again what happened to the people of southern sudan we're seeing in the nuba mountain and definitely in darfur. but the most important thing for you to know, the emerging

or the continuing leadership in sudan are tending now to go fought radical lament elements -- some now a sudan having two elements. muslims and arabs. this will disregard to the great african people in darfur and southern kordofan and blue nile. you can see it emerging in that country in the northern sudan. personally, i feel what is happening in southern kordofan is not only ethnic cleansing, as you have put. i will say it is indeed a crime against humanity. it will help focus more rather than -- it is not about nuba.

it's about the people. and about the traditions, about the land. this is what we're seeing in -- and there is a similar pattern being committed, as i mentioned earlier. i came 10 days ago from the abyei area and i see the atrocities affecting the area. hundreds of thousands of people got displaced. when i saw them again, children are dying because of one action of their leadership in khartoum. but i feel also with this in northern sudan and the remaining sudan, it's critical for us to look at the opportunities in sudan. the sudan people northern sector headed by people like a

few, these are the only credible political party that i feel is a real ally that could transform the system in khartoum. because these are the people who believe truly a commitment to peace because of the things happening in southern kordofan for regime change and the struggle and that is going to affect eventually the people. mr. chairman, it is very important to take into account what is happening now. and the sudan government in the

offices of the african union and it is good to take account what happened in nuba mountain in sequence what happened. i want to remind the committee that the people of nuba mountain were given this. it was a struggle for us to have legislation for public consultation. but you know, the election in nuba mountain was rocked by the n.c.p. to dial out the peoples of nuba mountain. it is important that the blue nile, but the public

sculettation, the people of nuba mountain and blue nile, it should be discussed at the next legislation. what happened, the n.c.p. unilaterally dismissed the members of the south so you are left with a see himbly that does not reflect the people of nuba mountain. it was decided prematurely and before time. it is important to know that n.c.p. unilaterally took a decision to disarm the splm and the commitment was for us to have this joint integrated unit to continue until 9 of july, 2011, but they disarmed them

before time. they are dishonoring what we agreed upon. but it is important to know that during the negotiation an agreement was reached between the splm so the people could enter into dialogue. what happened after the signing of the agreement, the n.c.p. rejected the agreement and the agreement was talking of an dialogue about the forces. and for the splm, they rejected it. and this is what we are seeing in nuba mountain. in the same pattern, i want to share with you in owe buyy, we agreed to have a referendum.

and in that agreement, we agreed there would be a commission to be formed. that commission was formed and we agreed it should have a final and binding agreement. n.c.p. rejected that one very early. we go to the permanent court of arbitration. we went to the court of arbitration and for the sake of peace the court resolved to define the area of abyei. they say now these areas belong to the arabs. we agreed with the n.c.p. that we should be able to appoint bashir the candidate of the southern sudan commission. and we, the splm agreed to

appoint -- to nominate bashir person. they refused. we accepted bashir for them. and when we come to formation of abyei, they refused. they invaded. because we asked the flynn union in order to come to a solution. by the time they invaded abyei in may, 2011. and we are seeing it again. this is a pattern of leadership dishonoring whatever you agree with. and i think with that one in mind about what they have been doing, i think it is important to look at the south also because these people, the hope for them whether nuba mountain

or darfur be the new nation that being formed now in southern sudan because people would definitely take refuge in this country. this is a collective that is what we are seeing. how much people would describe this country as i am seeing in that country a passion to build a new nation. and as mentioned by congressman payne, i think they are going to face a lot of difficulties and that's why we are having having a viable southern sudan is important. i think it is very important we focus on africa. and that is the only hope for nuba mountain and blue nile and people of abyei.

i want to conclude with some key messages. working as a governmental organization and how it is important for assistance. definitely i would like to say it's a leadership problem in sudan and the leadership in sudan is a liability. it's a liability to the continent and liability to the people of southern sudan and i think it is important for the world to focus attention on what is happening in sudan because if we don't do it now, it's going to be a huge crisis in the region. in the north, but it is going to affect this region and the continent. extremism is coming very clearly in the north. and the appetite for ethnic

cleansing and war is becoming a clear case in the north. what should we do? i think it is very important that the united nations to play an essential role in the nation. it is very important to take the lead. it is true, it is an african problem but it has become very clear how much it has been played in order to bring the commitment for peace. sudan is possible if we collectively work together. i think it is very important also that the southern sudan be at the heart of your priorities. it is only hope we can be able to show to the sudanese people and to those who are struggling

for their own right that you are standing with them. i think it is very important to offer your role in the united nations. in abyei area you have a united nations mission in that region to provide protection to the people and and you played a very big role in the united nations. whether the united nations can provide protection in that area is critical. but not only protection but critical how to assist the people. mr. chairman, i know during the war, it is difficult, we should not expect the sudan government to give access to the people of nuba mountain. having the organization and development. it was through that process we managed to take the relief

assistance to the people of nuba mountain. it is critical we look to the inden genous people and look for a safe corridor so this can be helpful. we in the abyei area as an organization that is trying to for peace and development, i think we can offer a lot in terms of helping the people and making the aid effective using the organizations. i would like to echo again our appreciation and what the bishop say about the role of the n.g.o.'s. programs need to focus attention.

and that will provide a lot of information. these are efforts that we need to support. again with congressman, the role is critical. not only about the government but about the people and i think the people can do a lot if the focus today on what you are seeing in sudan. i want to conclude with my -- what i believe we in kush as a governmental organization can do also in the area. immediate efforts are based on the goals of the peace. but we also have vision of the development effort that will be against crimes of humanity. we need to seek ways and board a strong network of governmental organizations like kush and others working in the region and

provide a collaborative effort and achieve lasting peace and democratic society that is respectable of human rights and religious beliefs. thank you for giving me this opportunity. >> thank you very much for your very comprehensive testimony and your work. let me note for the record we had invited the u.s. department of state or any of the deputies and usaid and admittedly it was very short notice. two days ago we asked them. this is an emergency hearing and i want the state department and the usaid to know that this subcommittee will reconvene any time in august hopefully very soon to hear specifically what is being done, contemplated in

response to this catastrophic explosive situation that you have brought our three distinguished witnesses to the subcommittee. let me make that very clear we will recon seen to hear that and be part of a solution. and bishop, you made a very i am passioned plea and the grave situation calls for the united states and the international community to translate more outrage into effective action. you talked about your cathedral has been ransacked and chaplain has been beaten and the nuba people fear they will be forgotten and the world will stand by, these are your quotes while mass killings continue without redress and you talk about the house-to-house killings occurring as we meet here in committee. you also point out that the united states should deploy its own satellites to ensure that the reported mass graves are not

tampered out. this subcommittee has long and aggressively, everywhere in the world on every continent where this has occurred has emphasized not only stopping the atrocities and the genocide in the first place but holding those who commit those atrocities to account whether by charles taylor who is likely to be sentenced. just recently as we all know a bosnian serb was found. he was hunted down. and i was there a couple of times including one of a mass burial of people who were slaughtered during an incident in july and same thing happened in the congo and same thing is happening in kordofan.

so it's very important that we be robust in collecting that evidence while we try to stop it and i appreciate you bringing to the committee how important that is. i also -- you made a number of very serious recommendations and appreciate alabor ration by you or other waits that the united states -- cannot begin to consider normalizing ties with sudan and should not be listed as a sponsor of terrorism and while these terrible crimes against humanity are occurring. you also said the u.s. and international community including the african union must act. you also underscore that because of the bombing campaign, people have not been able to plant or tend to their crops and that means by october when the crops should be ready to harvest, there will not be enough food to

feed people and you say that is a slow motion killing by design. you make an appeal that peacekeeping forces with a real mandate to keep the peace and not stand by while mass murder occurs house-to-house around the clock. in your view, has the united states done enough? has the international community done enough? has the peacekeepers who are redeployed, what should be done, new deployment? what would be your recommendations there? and you make a point, bishop, there needs to be bold action by the united nations security council. what would you say to them needs to be done right now? >> i think first of all, the bombing -- we need to stop these

bombings for the civilians. and there is many ways might be the u.s. can be able to stop the bombings and killing of the people. number two, access to humanitarian aid is very crucial. we don't have food. people are running and they have no food. and also i know u.s. is trying, but we need more efforts because u.s. government is part of people who brought the peace in sudan. but nuba mountain is part of the comprehensive peace agreement, but they are not finished. so we need the government to go ahead and still continue to achieve peace and freedom for the people of nuba. and at the same time, there is

no news coming from the ground, no media, but i think the u.s., they can go and see for themselves, because very difficult. the government of sudan is prohibiting anybody to go and to see and to report -- they don't want reporters. so my question i was asking is that government of sudan greater than the united nations, african union, u.s. government? is this greater than preventing all things to be seen? and how long -- how many years this government people are dealing with this government but still doing the same. although bashir is wanted but still there. but this man is wanted but still

living together. why are they allowing this regime continue doing their same action? so these are my questions what u.s. is going to do, if they can intervene and act. we have been talking and been telling this for many times, but also, i'm happy that this organization is now signing petition of half million. i hope the government will be able to hear this voice for the people who are also trying to help us. >> i would just echo what the reverend said and this regime in khartoum has a long history of dishonoring agreements as dr.

luka pointed out and one of the basic problems coming from washington, d.c., is that we continue to try to deal with these people as honest brokers and not look at them as the murderous genocide regime that they are. why does our ambassador, when he is interviewed and asked about war crimes taking place in one of the interviews that i read, he said, well, we hear the allegations, but nobody is on the ground to see it. and i met with one of his representatives this week and i was basically told that the position, you know, of our government was one of moral equivalency between the two sides and this isn't really honest. we aren't being honest with

ourselves. there is plenty of evidence. i was with a team that produced a fantastic documentary that has been run over and over again and see it on youtube which exposes what is happening there. there is a team from the "new york times," from "time" magazine from "the independent." there are people with cameras and internet. and you can get more information now on this genocide than you could in the previous war. and the fact that the i.c.c. recognized the leadership of the national islamic front or the national congress party as being responsible for genocide and recognized haroon and why doesn't our government recognize them in that way. with regard to the u.n. forces, there are all kinds of steers coming out from egypt, standing by watching the slaughter taking

place and they are supposed to be peacekeeping forces. allowing the intelligence services to come in and take people out of their compound. there was one incident where six nuba mountain sought shelter in the compound and they were raped by the egyptian forces. so it seems as if some of the forces and i know it's not true for all of them, are complicit with khartoum. there are internal documents at the u.n. that the u.n. is being forced to release very soon because some members of the u.n. were victim of these atrocities when it happened. so this should be investigated. these people should be prosecuted in the u.n. and brought to justice. and our government should get off the fence and distinguish between the victims and perpetrators of genocide. >> very quickly and i'll yield

because i know the bishop has to leave shortly and i want other members to be able to ask him questions, but let me note for the record that bashir visited beijing in late june and rather than ensuring that he was apprehended and certainty to the hague where he ought to be held to account, nothing of the sort happened. he was treated as a great man. and secondly and turkey refused to listen to e.u. requests when bashir visited and there should have been an arrest made and this man prosecuted for genocide. >> last year, kenya inaugurated its constitution and the u.s. had a lot to do in bringing that contusion and bashir was the main story. his presence in kenya. so he is showing up all over the place and nobody seems to be

concerned about his arrest warrant. >> mr. payne. >> thank you very much. i couldn't agree more that the international criminal court i think is a great institution, however we know that it's very difficult to have a court without having an enforcement mechanism and of course that is a very weak part of the international criminal court. one time it was thought that interpol could perhaps serve as a -- an enforcement arm, but the question is how do you apprehend the criminal in our country

without police. we would have no use for courts. but i do believe we should continue to support the international criminal court and try to really work on ways to strengthen it, at least these criminals are being indicted. they know that this indictment stands over their head. they know where they can go, but they know 90% of the places they cannot go. and i think that time will take care of mr. bashir. dr. deng, with the arrangement that was supposed to be made on the areas in dispute, i think that unfortunately as i indicated, the 56 map when independence came from britain creates the situation because that map is still being used as

the borders. and as we saw in kashmir region between india and pakistan, the british left an unincorporated area and left it to be determined in the future and as we know in kashmir, there is still fighting going on between pakistan and india over that area. and so i certainly have a real concern that of course, south kordofan and blue nile under the map in the agreement, although they were supportive of splm and prefer to be a part of the south, the map has drawn them into the north. now could you tell me -- i read

it, but what type of an agreement was supposed to be enforced blue nile and southern kordofan to work on a way of having a government? there was supposed to be an integration of the military also with the splm into the forces in that area. could you just explain what the special group that was supposed to handle this was supposed to do.

>> thank you for the question. the north-south border is a very critical issue and what we have agreed when i was with the negotiation for the parties to agree, although we have defined agreement in 1956, a committee was set up and there was a commitment by the parties to ensure that that committee did not move very well. and what happened, we said we should stick to the dialoguing of finding a peaceful settlement of the disputed border between north and south and if we fail to agree on those areas, we should resort to arbitration in a very peaceful way and not trigger a war. for the nuba mountain and blue

nile, the incident happened and an agreement was signed mediated by the african union. and under the office of the president. and the content of that agreement says we should have a cease fire. second, we should go for dialogue and discuss the forces. they were pushing that there is no way you can disarm these people because they are the people who fought the political war and accepted that agreement. and in view of that, you cannot disarm because it will be another struggle happening in these two areas. the parties agreed we should sit and continue to dialogue. secondly, they discussed the

political landscape of the sudan. and to exercise and then to do it's -- its political activities. it was agreed that splm northern sector will be a legal party. its activities in the north and by doing so saying you can have a political party that can engage in sudan. the other one is that the whole debate about what is going to happen. the splm in the north and n.c.p. to discuss how they are going to give the opportunity for forming sudan. this has to be discussed.

it was agreed by the deputy of the president. and when he went back, bashir and other people rejected outrightly not agreeing to the agreement that was signed and witnessed by the african union. and that's why we say the role of the united nations is for them to accept these agreements that was signed because that is giving the opportunity for the parties to engage and dialogue and discuss about the viability and stability of sudan. >> your new organization, kush, how do you see your organization being able to be of assistance and do you think that at this time, your newly formed group would be able to assist in attempting to come up with

resolutions in these three disputed areas. >> at kush, as i mentioned earlier, we want to forge a relationship between u.s. people of the united states and africa and southern sudan and awyy. it is a flash point, abyei, after invasion by bashir, any chance of giving us confidence. it has a lot of challenges, challenges of conflict and displacement. and kush is trying to see how best we can advocate for a finer solution foyer abyei, helping people to advocate and whether it should be returned back to the south because it was part of the southern sudan or for them

to be held within a very conducive environment. and secondly the whole role of the united nations, now we have united nations peacekeeping forces on the ground and we should discuss the role of the united nations in protection, because although they are there to protect the citizens, we know what happened in congo. you may be giving a good mandate but it's not well-defined. let's engage with the united nations what does it mean because you might have heard even these forces now in owe buyy, some got killed and were not given a chance to medical attention by the sudan armed forces in abyei. the united nations' role protection and kush could help

in returning these people. and there is an element we are seeing as an opportunity, having an organization on the ground because sometimes these international organizations cannot deliver. it is critical and whether we can look for a partner that will have the knowledge and to assist. this is the one thing we are discussing. the final one is building the peace at the grassroots level and because the tension was created the n.c.p. dragging them in against their will. what kush is saying, whether we can force a peace building among these communities. this is echoed in nuba mountain and blue nile.

the role of the united nations particularly the security council first to investigate these atrocities. and united nations see the possibility of having the protection of the people. and whether we could use the united nations forces in abyei to be extended to cover the nuba mountain and blue nile with the mandate. also, i have a feeling that united nations can help also in conduct -- in assisting in the conduct. and also in the conduct in abyei if we fail to get an agreement. >> i appreciate your courage, mr. phillips in what you have done, the work that you have done and i couldn't agree with

you more, i was one where we were trying to get a no-fly zone a decade ago to prevent when darfur broke out, but we could not -- president bush agreed at one point to support the no-fly zone that would have prevented the bombings that continued in darfur. but the short time that i have left, what are recommendations that you would like to see us do if you had the authority to do yourself. >> thank you very much, congressman payne and i'm debateful for your leadership on this issue. first, i would point out that the intentions of what dock dr. luka said how they legalized the

party in the north and how that relates to the popular consultation reveals they never had any intention of keeping the agreement. and southern kordofan is where they have been staging attacks by militias that they sponsor in south sudan and longest border. it is a strategic area and republic of south sudan concerns about and the u.s. should be concerned about as a caretaker. and we haven't done enough to enforce the c.p.a. the attempt to disarm the splm and legalize their party and so on, way ahead of any requirement by the c.p.a. was a prove occasion. i was discouraged when i met with the state department and was told that the spla provoked

khartoum in attacking abyei and they wanted war. and we know there are war crimes and genocide taking place. we believe this is the position i was given at the state department and they believed both sides want war and that gave me a sick feeling in the middle of my stomach. we know where the planes are that are bombing civilians that are blowing little girls in half. it wouldn't take much to solve that problem and it would cost a whole lot less than what we have done in a place like libya. we ought to -- whether or not we are prepared to do that at a minimum, we should be in our rhetoric and our moral stance, we should be siding with the victims of it and we should be demanding that the u.n. declare a humanitarian emergency. when i made my trip in, it had

been six years since i had been in that kind of situation because i enjoyed the interim relative peace and i wasn't prepared, but it's dangerous. and as has been mentioned, there is a serious how man tarian -- humanitarian crisis. 70,000 people are probably going to die because the roads are shut down to the north and flights aren't coming in to the nuba mountains right now. so the u.s. government needs to have a loud voice and build a loud bonn fire with the help of add vow bonfire and putting pressure on the u.n. and change how they communicate on this as well. i think at a minimum, we need to

publicly differentiate between the victims and the perpetrators of genocide and there are many solutions that can come. and the southern sudanese need to know we don't have a problem with them helping the northern sector of the spla and splm. this is a threat to integrity. >> the government of sudan tends to exacerbate the situation as they did in darfur with a little skirmish between some local people and the garrison there and they ended up bombing for weeks thousands to retaliate for the small incident that should not have occurred and even with the incident with a shot that

was fired allegedly by one soldier of splm possibly therefore in the government of sudan then comes back with overwhelming force and abyei to say that the splm attacked. it was inadvertent and a gunshot goes off and use that excuse to continue to genocide. >> nobody is surprised in sudan what khartoum is doing. and when i was with -- in the interview, the problem is not with the nuba people. the nuba people are united and the problem is not in kordofan or abyei. the problem is in khartoum.

and that's how our government needs to look at it and this is not a tribal internal conflict in southern kordofan and we have obligations to enforce it. >> mr. phillips, i would like to follow up on a couple of things you have said in your testimony and with the ranking member. with regard to these humanitarian flights -- let me back up. you mentioned 70,000 to 90,000 people would die in the next month. can you elaborate on that. is that from lack of food? >> i traveled around four countries in southern kordofan state during the 12 days i was there. different trip than i made in 1998. a lot of roads have been built in the last six years so you can

really move around. there are 19 counties in southern kordofan state and most of the nuba population and dr. luka can correct me, but i believe most of the nuba population are in about five of those counties and that's where the aerial bombing campaign is taking place. and we heard bombing and planes flying over us three, four times every day and some places they said, you know, have a good night's place and realize the plane never gets here before 7:00 in the morning. and other places, they said, here they are bombing at night time by g.p.s. coordnants and those why the people are living on the hillside. 425,000 people spread over those five counties that are displaced from their homes. when i was in one county, i learned that there was 600

people in just a month that were wounded by the bombing and there were more than 150 that had died by the bombing. i visited a lot of those people in the hospital. i saw one that is completely wiped out, the town is wiped out. every building is wiped up by mig attacks. the effect of the bombs -- most of the killing happened in kadugli in these house-to-house searches. the s pmp la controls the southern kordofan state and they have the control of the people. there is fighting for control over kadugli where there is staff, but the rest of southern kordofan state is under the control of the spla. the bombinging is displacing 425,000 people and 25% of them are going to face a serious

issue relating to food. there used to be commerce to the north. the road to the south is affected by swamp. and road to the south is affected by swamp this time of year. so there is no access on the ground and there's very little access by air because no plane wants to get shot out of the sky by a mig and no umbrellas. when we wept to the nuba mountains, there was the operation lifeline sudan and even though there was a red no-go, the resistance gave a degree of insulation from attack and they weren't using migs in those days. it's a much more difficult situation and dangerous situation for an n.g.o. or charter company or the die oses to bring a plight in there.

>> those are the ones that were flying in the humanitarian flights? >> the two groups who have continued to bring in flights on a very limited basis is the catholic church and the relief arm there in the nuba mountains. >> and where do they fly into? what are they able to serve? >> it's very difficult and they have to change locations all the time and they are running a real risk. and the pilot, for example, that took me in, was bombed and he said i'm not going to pick you up. my three-day trip turned into a 12-day trip and the next plane was diverted to go someplace else and we were stuck until we found someone who was willing to take a risk. and that's the reality right now and it's much worse from that point of view than during the

existence -- so the u.n. needs to take some action and declare an emergency at a minimum. >> thank you very much, mr. phillips. and i yield back my time. >> chairman wolf. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to thank you and mr. payne for the hearing. fundamentally -- before i say that, is there anybody here from our government at all, state department anybody? just raise your hand. anybody here from the u.n.? wow. anybody here from the sudan government, the embassy? this is a fundamentally evil government. they are evil as ronald reagan said with regard to 1983. they are fundamentally evil. evil. and until you remove bashir,

this will continue. this will continue. it will not change. how long will the west pretend -- it will continue. china welcomed bashir. they gave him the red carpet. i have the picture -- red carpet. whenever an american businessman goes there, you are meeting with a man who has blood on his hands. the largest embassy in khartoum is the chinese embassy. they're all over the place. and president bush offered them and said anti-aircraft material and this administration never sent it. you take one of those out of the

skies and will change the dynamics and these people are being chewed up and chewed up and chewed up. the u.n. has failed. the u.n. failed in rwanda, the u.n. failed in bosnia and the u.n. failed in darfur. they stood by and allowed people to die. read the book, kofi annan watched was taking place in rwanda. he went to rwanda to apologize. what is taking place here took place in rwanda and secretary christopher allowed it to take place. read samantha powers' book. china is the problem. you have to remove bashir. you have to remove bashir. he has to be removed.

government change, regime change. no other way. it has been going on for 21 years. 2.1 million people, mostly christian, killed in the north-south battle. people killed in darfur. he just said the u.n. are turning people over to be taken away. that sounds like the nazis to me or something out of a bad movie. the u.n. has failed. these are war criminals. they're war criminals. that's it. they're war criminals. i don't think anybody connected to this government ought to be permitted to visit the united states, period. we should close their embassy down and force them out. if you're working -- libya, libya is a problem because of gaddafi and syria is a problem

because of the president assad. this guy's much worse. and to meet with them is incredible. they should be expeled. they should be expeled from our country. and britain -- if this was happening in southern france or southern germany this place would be electrified. they would be wild. but it's happening in a country and it's racial, too. i mean do not deny that it is racial. it is racial and it is religious. and the world is standing by and allowing this to take place. the u.n. has failed and they are failing and i just don't want my country to fail. this administration better get some energy step up or step

down. i like the prince, but should step up or step down. these people are going to be killed. and for this to take place and no one from khartoum should be permitted to go -- if they want to get an operation, let them get it in khartoum. if they want to educate their kids, let them educate in khartoum. no one connected to this government should be permitted to visit the west at all. and i will do anything and i appreciate again, god bless, mr. smith and mr. payne. these are evil people, evil government. i mean to sit in a hearing and talk about how maybe the u.n. could have done something and i know it didn't exist to get hitler out. he was an evil man. this is an evil government and it's time for our government to do something about it.

we aren't talking about troops but just give them the ability. tanks that the southern sudanese government trying to bring anywhere are the tanks? they are still in kenya and haven't allowed them to come in to defend themselves. i thank both of the witnesses and i appreciate this thing. we should send a message to the people in the nuba mountains and southern kordofan. this goes back to biblical times and i wonder how some people in this administration will feel when they leave and how moon is sitting there and doing nothing and when somebody writes the book about this. it's an evil government. the regime change should be taking place and bashir should be taken to the hague.

and i appreciate for being the leaders and speaking truth and thank both of the witnesses for their time. >> i thank you very much, congressman wolf. and i agree 100%. these are not statistics, these are real people. and you know, the only reason why they are being exterminated is because they are african. they are black africans. only reason why they are being exterminated is because they don't subscribe to the same stripe of religion as khartoum. and we can't sit by and watch it happen. the president of the united states ran very strongly on this issue. he said that he supported a no-fly zone in darfur. mr. president, what are you

going to do? you know it's happening. what are you going go to do? >> i'm very moved and honored painting a picture of what is happening in suzanne -- sudan. but i want the opportunity to highlight why we are focusing on those issues. and i think it is important what could we do collectively and especially this country. we know the difficulty, but it is important we should keep an eye on southern sudan because southern sudan is going to be a home, a refuge to what atrocities are being committed along the border. this is a country that we should

invest in it and importantly considerations of peace. but i think fundamental issues, especially the issue of water, education and agriculture in the context of the familiarin we are seeing in the region. but i would like to echo congressman wolf, what we discuss at a certain point in time when we visited with you in your office with the president. and i think the capacity of the government of southern sudan is important and whether we can use the southern sudanese in the united states to go back home and assist in building this nation. it's a real program that we feel is important so the south sudanese can go and assist in government. they have some difficulties on the issue of the zones. but this is going to be an important support to the government of southern sudan. i think important also the aid

and assistance, because the way we need to put more focus on humanitarian assistance and going to see more people displaced and more humanitarian need in that area. i think the organization and thanks to referring to kush. i decided to come out and do something different. we can help the people on the ground. and together with you, we can make a difference on the ground and thank you very much. >> let me and i'll go to mr. payne for any concluding remarks. back in the mid-1990's, i chaired the first hearing ever on slavery in sudan. most people who heard of the hearing and some of the people who protested that i was actually holding a hearing, taking bashir to task for the

empowerment of slavery, thought it was a hearing in search of a problem that didn't exist and we all know that that's not the case, but fast forward to just as recently as yesterday, i called over to one of our people advocating on behalf of another mr. deng, who was enslaved, as was his mother. he was hung upside down and pepper was rubbed into his eyes causing a very significant near blindness condition. a journalist has taken up his cause and will pay for a doctor, air fare for him to get a very significant medical treatment that will get him back his sight. i hope we approve his visa. we have been trying for months, this is our side now, that has not given him the visa. it has been postponed to monday.

but underscores the viciousness of bashir and his like-mind cronies who have committed slavery and continue to do so. and even then the u.s. department of state suggested that it was not as widespread as many of us had concrete about. almost like bringing forward fresh information about how this is not both sides committing things and somehow we are just going to be the arbitter realizing an assault on the nuba people that has to be stopped and u.n. security council and u.s. and the african union all need to be on the same page to do so. president bashir was quoted in april that he was going to use force in southern kordofan. we know that this man is

pathological. i met with him and i argued with him for well over an hour, almost two hours about darfur in the mid-1990's, 2000, i should say and was taken -- he reminded me of the president of serbia and there is something wrong with these individuals and just because they are in charge of a state, people somehow convey that a legitimacy that is absolutely undeserving and we know that dictators have committed huge atrocities that are going on right now. this is an emergency hearing and i said it before. we invited the state department and usaid and stand ready to reconvene at a drop of the hat. and we will hear from our own administration what their plans are to combat this horrific

situation. and that said, mr. payne. . >> thank you, and i thank mr. woeful for his -- mr. wolfe for his passionate dedication. i'd like to thank back on some of the persons, probably the only thing we agreed on between congressman tancredo and myself was sudan. he went on his first co-dell with me to south sudan, we stayed in tents, i told him that's what a typical codel was like, he didn't know, since he

was new, he found out later that wasn't right. but he and senator brownback and senator frist, those who have for many years, we have a new senator now, koon of delaware, we'll continue to push, there's no respect from the government of khartoum, even when president carter was visit suge dan with operation lifeline sudan, bashir bombed the area to let him know, i'm in control. we've seen -- the doctor did say that bashir and his government are too deformed to be reformed. it was one of his statements, i wouldn't agree more. it was july 30, 2005, and -- when the doctor's life was taken. he was a personal friend of mine, i did attend the funeral.

he fought for 20 years for the independence of the people, he died 21 days after the signing of the c.p.a. he really wanted a new sudan. he was dreaming for a united sudan. but the bashir regime were afraid of him. when he went to khartoum after the c.p.a. was signed, the outpouring of tens of thousands of people from the north, muslims, people who are islamic supporters, came out to support him because they looked at him as a liberator and probably got the bashir government a little concerned that a southerner could possibly become the president in a fair election in sudan. so we have to keep the pressure on and i commend congressman

smith for keeping this issue before us. we'll continue to push for justice. we should have done that no-fly zone and i agree with you to take a few of those, we could have taken all those planes out and finished them. so now we have a different situation. but i agree with you that we have to keep the pressure on. we have to support president bakir who is struggling to move his new nation forward. i know with people we have supported there, we'll continue to be the voice for the people of sudan. thank you. >> any further comments from our distinguished witnesses? i thank you so much and we'll continue this and eappreciate

your wisdom, counsel and recommendations today. the hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] >> closing the hearing on capitol hill, we go live to the center for progress, they are talking about the state of security on the u.s. border. witnesses include the former head of the u.s. immigration

and naturalization service and others, this is just getting under way. >> the story that they tell is one that is built on sensationalism an half-truths at best and frankly demagoguery or falsehoods at worst. they describe porous border where the border is penetrated equally by terrorists and migrant they talk about spillover violence from the cartel wars on the mexican side of the border. they talk about the deserts being littered with headless bodies. most importantly and what we want to address head on today, they claim the federal government refuses to do anything about it. the fact of -- the facts belie each of those claims. attempted unlawful entries are

at historic lows. rates of apprehension are at historic highs. our borders are safer than they've ever been. crime rates have been on a decline for more than the last decade. border cities of all sizes have lower than the national average in terms of crime rates, in many cateses, well below the national average. unfortunately, sensationalism sells. it does cap into -- tap into what is a continuing sense of national vulnerability in the post-9/11 era. so it's all the more critical for us, and this is the reason for our conversation today to tell the real story of the evolution of the border over the last 18 years. by discussing where we started and how far we've come, i think we'll be able to help debunk some of the most persistent

myths and shine a light on where we need to go. i don't plan to gloss over the difficulties and challenges of managing a 2,000 mile border that spans four states and some of the most treacherous terrain in the country. i don't want to ignore the unintended consequences that have come from this border buildup. but i do hope and believe that today's conversation is going to help advance the public's understanding of just how far we've cop and what is really a shared objective, to strengthen our national security and assert control over the border. and who better to have us explore this issue than doris meissner, former commissioner of the immigration and naturalization service when this border buildup began in the early 1990's, and the current commissioner of customs and border protection, allen

burrson. i'm only going to briefly cover their buy yows because a full description of their accomplishments and experience would frankly take most of the next hour but let me start with allen -- alan burrson. he's been commissioner of customs and border protection since march of 2010. he oversees tens of thousands of employees, over 21,000 border agents. he has a long history before he assumed this position at the southwest border. he was previously the assistant secretary for international affairs and the special representative for border affairs in the department of homeland security and he was also, in the 1990's, the u.s. attorney for the southern district of california and attorney general southwest

border representative. doris meisner is currently a fellow at the policy institute doing fascinating work and cutting edge analysis but as i indicated, during the 1990's, from 1993 to 2000, the entire tenure of the clinton administration, she was commissioner of the immigration and naturalization service and oversaw the initial phase in the border buildup. but her rich and frankly unparalleled experience in this field goes well beyond that. he was acting commissioner and third in line during the first half of the 1980's as well at i.n.s. so i want to thank you both for your extraordinary public service and taking the time to be here with us this afternoon. you represent, really, bookends on what is the most recent

chapter in our southwest border history. and while i would normally go first to the commissioner as a matter of etiquette and good form with my first question, i think it's important that doris have an opportunity to help kind of set the stage for us and describe what really happened on the ground in the 1990's: so i'll start with you, doris, could you try to provide a picture of, you know, what you walked into in 1993 and where you carried that forward. >> thank you, i will do that, i want to begin by thanking you for such a kind introduction and for all of you coming today to listen to this program. it's always great to be able to talk with commissioner burrson. the way that you asked the

question and the way you set it up, you have to indulge me a little bit of personal reminiscing to get this going. these stories are always policy stories and operational story bus they often come down to people and particular circumstances where people are concerned. so to take us back, and it seems in some ways we are going back to ancient history, but we are talking about the early 1990's. the election of president clinton in november of 1992, the announcement of my being the designee to be appointed to the commissioner's position was in june of 1993 and my confirmation hearings were in october of 1993. almost a year into the administration but after confirmation hearings in october i was sworn in in november of 1993 and that period and what was taking place in the fall and in the

broader back drop was very critical to understanding how it is that this issue of the border and border enforce. unfolded because during october, something took place in el paso called operation blockade. that was an idea put into place by the border patrol chief at the time, whose name was a familiar one, he's now a congressman, congressman silvestre reyes wuss chief of the border patrol and tried a new technique. his technique was to take all the resources from the el paso sector, added to by money for details and put them right on the border. so the idea was overwhelming force moved forward at the border to see what would happen. and basically, what happened was that it shut the border down. now, that made national

headlines and national news just as i'm going up to the hill for confirmation hearings and of course members asked about it. and pressed me very hard to pursue those kinds of tactics where border patrol was concerned, you know, broadly. and we had quite a discussion about what at that time was called operation blockade. simultaneously, the attorney general, who was janet reno and was also quite new in her position took a trip to the southwest border, went to san diego and saw the southwest border firsthand and came back and said to me, as i was coming into my new duties, doris, you must do something about the border. sometimes that's the way policy is determined. and in this case, it was very clear that my first priority was to be -- to deal with the southwest border and

particularly the circumstances as we saw them, or as they were taking place in san diego because in san diego at that time, proposition 187 was on the ballot in california. governor wilson was running a re-election campaign based on the failures of the federal government where immigration and immigration enforcement were concerned and that was buttressed by lawsuits filed against the federal government by the state of arizona and i believe the state of florida, i don't remember anymore but there were several lawsuits against the froth for abdication of its enforcement duties. these are not new themes. they have been around for some while. different ways, different players, but the focus on the border was essential. so the question was, what to do? well o.m.b. said it would support a new budget focused on

the border, border enforcement was president clinton's broader anti-crime law enforcement agenda, which was a centric democrat kind of priority, intended obviously to take the law and order issue away from the republican party and border enforcement fit into that broader frame. so i went to the border patrol and said, you're the professionals, you know what's needed, what do -- if we had resources to do border enforcement, how would we do it? they came up with a plan and strategy that led to changing the budget between november and december when it actually goes to the hill in january and i spent a lot of time on the hill trying to convince members of congress to accept the strategy that we wanted to put into place to change the dynamics on

the border. i remember in particular, a meeting with senator feinstein, who was essential, of course, because she was from california and our effort was to persuade her that whereas there would have been enough money in that budget for 600 new border patrol agents, could we please hire only 400 tissue 450 border patrol agents, i think these are the numbers, they're close, and use the rest of the money for equipment, technology, support vehicles, other things that would make those border patrol agents be more effective. that was not an argument that had ever been made before. and we had to really argue the point but they gave us the chance, they did change the budget and we began, then to set the standard for different kinds of budgets that were comprehensive budgets on how it is you go about doing the

border. those new resources allowed us to mobilize a couple of new operations. the first operation was operation gate keeper in san diego which we announced in the fall of 1994. and that along with another in el paso which came at almost the same time was the start time of the buildup of the border that's continued through republican and democratic administrations in the congress as majorities in the congress as well as administrations in the white house continuously from that time through today. this has been an issue of bipartisan support and engagement from the start. now, what did we really try to do? what were the key characteristics of these operations and of a new approach to border enforcement?

i think there are six critical characteristics. the first one is the idea of deterrence through prevention. that's the idea that congressman reyes demonstrated in el paso, which is you move your personnel and efforts as close to the actual line of the border as possible in order to prevent people from entering in the first place. that is not what the border patrol had traditionally done. traditionally they had stood back, to some extent because there were not very many of them, and tried to apprehend people once they entered the united states. that was a recipe for chaos and it was a recipe for all kinds of corollary problems. the most vitt example of it was the soccer field, the famous soccer field in the san diego sector where every day as

nightfall approached, you saw hundreds of people on the mexico side of this huge bowl get ready to cross at nightfall, the border patrol stood on the other side of the bowl and as people came across the chasing began and many, many more people obviously got through than were ever caught. so the idea was move your people forward, prevent people from entering in the first place, and then you will begin to get deterrents. the second major principle was to concentrate your resources. the concentrating of resources nonet look at where the crossing patterns were actually taking place. and it was very clear it had been this way for decades that there were four corridors of high crossing corridors. they were the san diego sector,

nogales, el paso and mcallen. if you could get control of those corridors and there were relatively few number of miles in those places, if you could get control of those borders, you'd control 60% to 70% of the apprehensions that had been taking place and those were the corridor linked to transportation routes in mexico. that's where the smuggling took place. that's what the network looked like. so the idea of concentrating resources in those high crossing corridors seemed now to make perfect sense but it was very different at that time and quite unheard of. what had happened prior to that time was what i thought of as sprinkle around which means every sector, every chief, every community ought to get pretty much a proray ta share of any new resources that came into the agency that made everybody be happy. but at the same time it never

led to enough critical mass anywhere to actually make a difference. so the idea here was to concentrate and begin to gain control piece by piece by piece of parts of the border and to have more force available as you were gaining control and once you gained control, to be able to leave enough of a resyd yield -- residual force in place to hold it permanently as you began to move on to other parts of the border. the third big idea had to do with the mixture of resources. we called it the people/equipment/technology combination. it was a mantra, people, equipment, technology. because the history, of course, was, to just put money into personnel. and the -- and border patrol

agents, that was the coin of the realm. but that persuading of people on the hill that we did initially to let us have a mixture of resources carried through. so the idea was to give those agents support staff, implant more sensors, put cameras in place do, night vision all the kinds of things that are now very familiar. stadium lighting, do recontouring so you have more access for vehicles, have enough vehicles, and one enormously important innovation which was automated bookings through a system called ident, bringing that kind of technology to the border. because up until this time, you had a system called i-213, if there are any old hands in the gupe they'll know what this is. it was a carbon copy three to

five part form that was filled out on top of the vehicles for each person apprehended. one thing that happened was people apprehended were brought into stations, there was an actual booking operation in place, everybody's fingerprints, index were taken to create an automated system that kept the records of arrests and made it be possible to know who were the repeat crossers, whomp the new crossers and have real information on what it was that was taking place. i think the principle had to do with mobilizing all the department of justice resources. after all, this was i.n.s., it was in the department of justice, so to mobilize all the justice department's resources beyond simply border patrol and engage in very intensive, aggressive community outreach was a major feature of the border buildup. that's, of course, where alan

comes into the picture and that's how he and i got to know each other and work together, he was u.s. attorney in san diego at the time, therefore the chief federal law enforcement official on the ground and the idea, of course, was that prosecution policy needed to support what the front line law enforcement agencies were doing and more than that that there needed to be continuous communication and coordination among all the federal law enforcement agencies on the ground and with the government of mexico. we worked very hard at the national level with the embassy here in washington and in mexico and alan and the chiefs and the border patrol officers on the ground worked very closely with the consuls in those locations to stop problems before they began or to keep them from escalating when they did come up so we

didn't have international incidents and foreign policy stalemates over things that could be solved on the ground. that allowed us to do an enormous amount of outreach. there was a press release for every new agent that arrived in any sector on the border. there was a continuous drum beat of what it was that was taking place, of new things coming into sectors. i think i know every coffee shop in east county because we went to community meetings, we were with edtorial boards all the time, we went -- i can envision the city council room in nogales because of hearings we held with the city leaders, etc. so outreach, communication, information, shaping expectations, preparing people for the changes was an incredibly important element of

this all along the way. another thing that was extremely important had to do with the ports of entry. the ports of entry were viewed to be an essential part of an effective border enforcement effort. so that the terminology we used was idea of seeking borders that worked. borders that worked to us meant preventing illegal crossing but facilitating legal crossing. and the facilitating of legal crossing was extremely important and in some ways the most difficult task in enforcement because that's where the legal and illegal come together. the more you tighten up between the ports of entry, the more likely it is you'll have pressure through the legal avenues of entry. so that needs to be part of the equation. and where that was concerned, we were most dedicated to

helping the flows of legal traffic. we created what was called a 20-minute rule at the key ports of entry, the most heavily crossed port of entry in the world was able to observe a no more than 20 minutes rule with staffing and so forth to breng people through the border. that was combined with introducing the sentry lane concept, which was the fast lane that go through in san diego and el paso and i think in a couple of other places now on the border. that required legislation because there was a prohibition in the appropriations against that so we worked with the san diego delegation in particular in order to change that legislation to make it be possible to do fast lanes. i think the final piece of it

was the border safety piece. as there was increasing success in closing off and controlling the most heavily trafficked parts of the border, of course it pushed people to the less heavier crossed areas and those tended in many locations to be more dangerous areas. so now we saw people crossing in larger numbers and in the deserts and in nogales and more dangerous parts of the rio grande river in south texas around mcallen, and you saw them coming across the all american canal. now the border has never been a benign place. it has always been dangerous. there was a lot of time and personal danger in the soccer field area, etc. the highways, interstate coming

up always had big posters of a family, a father, mother, and child, pedestrians crossing because people came through the port of entry and they went up the highway, they were not accustomed to what an interstate was like and they got killed. it was dreadful. so the issue of safety at the border has always been an issue. but what happened, of course, with these operations was that it heightened and intensified. the border patrol had always been engaged in rescue missions of one sort or another. it now became an explicit priority to have bought water be in all the vehicles, to have trained e.m.t.'s available constantly, to work with local officials, deaths at the border, for instance, had always taken place, they had never been counted. we made it an explicit policy

to keep track of that, to work with mexico, to respond to the families to provide information, etc. resources were deployed over deserts, drones, aircrafts, we didn't have drones at that time, helicopters, fixed-wing aircraft in areas that were not heavy crossing areas for the purpose of dealing with safety issues. so i think with that question of border safety, that was one of the ataptations made not envisioned at the beginning of the program but that had a very permanent part of it all. so there are lessons we learned and things we might have done differently but that's what it looked like from the front end. >> that's fantastic. i don't think anybody could have given us that type -- that breadth of challenges that were faced and the thoroughness with

which you guys approached it. and so, you know, what it does, though, it suggests that while we had some really significant challenges that were just, you know, right front and center, in 1993, you spent the next eight years, you know, adopting a series of initiatives and mechanisms to try to confront them but still, there were, i mean, in 2000, you can look at some of the data about how high the apprehension rates still were, there was still enormous pressure, commissioner burrson can you fast forward us or carry us forward from there to today? because that was phase one, but phase two has seen perhaps an even more tangible set of accomplishments. >> thank you, marshall.

i think doris has done a terrific job of setting the stage of where we were in 1993 when i was confirmed in november of 1993, just so you don't feel alone, janet reno said something very similar to me in december. but let's look at -- take what doris has laid down foundationally so well and move it up to the present time. when we describe the situation in 1993, recall there were fewer than 3,000 border patrol agents. from the entire length of the just under 2,000 mile border from san diego to brownsville, mcallen, texas. today we have just under 22,000. a commitment that actually started in 1994 in the budget

deliberations that doris described and continued steadily with the major points being by 2006, 2004, there were 10,000 border patrol agents and we had doubled the size of the border patrol in the last six years with a dramatic impact on enforcement presence. and this might be an opportune time to discuss why apprehensions, which are depicted on the map and i think in the report an brief that marshall prepared which i would say parenthetically, having watched the border and participated for just under 20 years now,s the most coherent statement of what's happened on the border from 1993 to 2011 in terms of the change in the equipment personnel infrastructure and technology that's available. but starting with the

personnel, we in san diego in those early years, there were fewer than 450 agents for the entire sector. today there are 3,300 agents. same in el paso. almost an increase by 10-fold of the number of agents. the specific theory of action was to push people out of easy urban places to cross the border to push them out of the situation where you could simply walk across the border, get into the transportation network and then move anywhere into the interior of the united states. if you look at 1993, the two places, while there were four corridors doris mentioned, there were two places in which most migrants entered illegally, san diego and el paso.

and it was not very difficult to walk across the bridge or walk across -- wade across the river from juarez into el paso or to stand at the soccer field in san diego and at nightfall simply to surge across the border. the border patrol agents, the maybe 40 agents on duty holding two in each hand and everyone else surging buy. you didn't have to go into very difficult places to cross and then enter the transportation network of the united states. if you follow the progression of the traffic of illegal migration that crossed the border in the last 18 years, you'll see a basic phenomenon of squeezing the water balloon so that when you actually have sufficient personnel in san diego, which was the first mace of the buildup, five years

later, the traffic had moved out of san diego and into the imperial valley immediately to the east of san diego, and then in fact moved into the next sector, which is yuma, arizona. and that took a process of approximately 10 years. the same thing was happening moving west from texas. if you look at the statistics of apprehensions in the rio grande valleying you'll see there was a movement of traffic in which as you build up the border, the traffic would move west steadily and fast forward, as marshall says from the year 2000-2001, the traffic was pushed successfully east from san diego, self-ly west from texas and where did it center?

arizona. so if you look at the statistical data of apprehensions, you'll note that the high point of apprehensions in arizona was the year 2000, in which 616,000 people were arrested in the tucson-nogales corridor. going nogales, arizona, phoenix, arizona, the most active corridor. in fact has remained the most active corridor of all in the united states. just under 50% of all illegal immigration in the united states takes place through that corridor and what is note worthy about it is it is not the place where you or i or any criminal organization that set out to find a place to smuggle

people into the united states would choose. arizona some of the the most spectacularly picturesque terrain in the united states is also some of the most dangerous an difficult. the sonoran desert as it comes into arizona, the configuration of mountains, make it a very difficult place to cross but that is why the traffic centered there and by 2000 became one of the few places in the united states where we had double digit levels of apprehension. let me describe this counterintuitive measure of success, declining apprehensions. taken alone that would not be necessarily an indicator or an index of progress but in the context of any policing

activity, whether in an urban area or a rural area, the first thing that happens when you put greater numbers of police officers in place, you see the apprehensions go up because you have more eyes on the problem and more capacity to actually arrest criminal violators. as that level of enforcement presence remains, you see a response by criminal elements that will then actually relocate away from that area and what we expect to see is the -- is to see a decline in apprehensions. so that when you see the decline in apprehensions, you begin to see the deterrent effect that doris alluded to as one of the objectives. that's happened all across the border. when that increased presence of personnel is coupled with a greater capacity to detect, you begin to have the ingredients of a successful enforcement

effort. so go back to 1993. in the soccer field in san diego that year, 565,000 people were arrested. but i think i can asure you and i think doris will confirm that probably twice that number got around the border patrol, got on the freeway on the way up to los angeles and made its way into the united states illegally. today when 68,000 people are being arrested in the san diego sector, that represents a much higher percentage of people trying to cross illegally because of the infrastructure. the fence that exist there is in urban areas, the number of agents watching the border and able to respond and because of the incredible suite of technology that dot this is border from san diego to brownsville. eyes on the border so that we can detect attempted illegal

entry and respond to it. that's why we say in the context of san diego, where 68,000 are being arrested, very few people today, unlike the situation in 1994 with proposition 187, believe that the border is out of control. because they don't experience what they experienced in 1993 with people running through the back yards, with people running up the freeway against the traffic, out of the area, with vans of illegal migrants overturning on the roads with high accident rates. that doesn't happen. if you go to san diego today and talk to all but those who continue to believe that a secure border means a sealed border, a zero tolerance for any illegal migration, you will not find a civic leader, religious leaders, or business leaders telling you that the

border is out of control in the way that in arizona that continues to be heard and why the equivalent of 187 took place last year in arizona in senate bill 1070 because of the impact on community life. so, traffic gets pushed into arizona. i think probably in fairness to the difficulty that we've had because it took -- it has taken 10 years for us to actually get to the point where we are today in arizona, where the traffic has gone down from -- the apprehensions from 616,000 to last year it was 212,000 and the data this year suggests that we will be at about-of that number, or 120,000 apprehensions. so from 2000 to this year, we've gone down to 616,000 to 120,000 apprehensions and that's a consequence of having

applied the same approach of more personnel. we have over 5,000 border patrol agents and officers in arizona. the greatest assemblage of resources ever placed by the united states civil enforcement in one place. we have technology in terms of cameras, radar, that is far greater advanced than the scope and scope trucks that were in place 15 years ago. we have infrastructure placed at critical points. remember, again, a good time to pause on the fence. the fence is not a berlin wall. the 650 miles of fence that exists in the united states have two functions. 350 miles of so-called pedestrian fence are high fences placed in urban areas intended to keep people from

having easy access into the urban area so that they can get lost, find their way to the transportation networks and move away from the border. by having the high pedestrian fence, you actually move people out into the areas where they are more amenable to apprehension because they are subject to detection and apprehension by border patrol agents. the other 300 miles of fence are actually more like the normandy vehicular barriers. very effective for what they do. we don't need a high pedestrian fence on all of the border. we don't -- what we need in certain places on the border is to prevent trucks and passenger vans from just simply coming south to north. we use that infrastructure together with the technology, together with the agent strength in arizona to produce

the same effect that we have elsewhere across the border. there is no sector and after next year, aside from arizona, and after next year, there will be no sector in which we have more than double digit apprehensions. we will drive the apprehensions below 100,000 in arizona and we will see the same effect in arizona that we've seen elsewhere. the last point that i think we can usefully open it up, marshall, is that there are a couple of significant very significant differences in the way in which we operate today from the past. doris pointed out this ident, the ability to biometrically identify who is crossing. i want to indicate why that is so critical.

back in the days before the border patrol had ident, believe it or not, the way this was done is that you'd arrest someone out on the soccer field, you'd bring them in to the station, you -- there was no reason to fingerprint them because you had no way to check on who it was that you had. border patrol agents would write the name down given to them by the migrant and they were mayne tained in shoe boxes. in terms of who had been apprehended. with descriptions because the agents knew they were not being given correct names, tattoo on right shoulder. fast forward to today. one of the great strengths of the border patrol is when they apprehend someone, they can tell you the crossing history of that person over the last 10 years. they can tell you how many times that person has been

arrested, who -- where that person was arrested and what consequences have been applied to that person. this ability to collect analyze data permits us to apply consequences that we could not in the past do. so that in arizona, we have a consequence delivery system in which save for juvenile and humanitarian cases, nine out of 10 people being arrested are receiving a consequence. some are being prosecuted, some are being transported away from arizona on the so-called atep program, some are being flown back to mexico in cooperation with the mexican government. no more voluntary reforms. no mas on voluntary reforms. which is an important element in affecting our ability to analyze what's happening on the border. when we make arrests now, we know how many unique individuals we're dealing with.

the 120,000 arrested will be made in arizona for this year. by the end of the fiscal year that may turn out to be no more than 60,000 or 65,000 unique individuals. that's important data because it permits us to then tailor consequences to specific individuals. the last point in terms of the large difference is the openness to mexico. the ability to communicate with mexico and gain the cooperation of mexican authorities in ways that would have been unthinkable a decade ago and probably unsayable even three or four years ago. as a result of president calderon and president obama's joint declarations and the work that's taken place together, the acceptance of co-responsibility by mexico and the united states for border problems, we begin to see a communication with mexico and the ability to work with

mexican law enforcement that was simply not possible a short time ago. that together with the elements of infrastructure technology, personnel strength, are what have made the difference. we have more work to do on the southwest border and we will continue to have work to do until there is a legitimate labor market between the united states and mexico. but measured by virtually any metric, the border is a -- is simply not what it used to be. we need that to be a recognized feature of our -- and staple of our political debate. >> thank you so much. thank you to both of you. i think you guys have just told frankly an incredible story

about the last 18 years and it's exactly what i was hoping we were going to be able to cover here and i didn't even have to prompt you because you guys covered it from beginning to end in such a great fashion, so much i'd like to go back to and pick up on. but let me start with one of the things you touched on, commissioner bersin, about the impossibility of an absolute seal. that -- congress didn't seem to understand that it's an impossibility. when they passed the border fence act in 2006, effectively that's what they were requiring was an impenetrable seal of the entire border from any contraband or any human beings entering. every national security expert i've ever talked to or seen quoted, every single one agrees that that is a fundamentally impossible standard. it's one they have berlin wall

itself would not have satisfied. but there is a disconnect because i think a lot of -- the average american who doesn't think a lot about this and considers the united states the most powerful history -- most powerful cupry in the history of the world, it's not that unrealistic to think we could actually seal that border. how do you think we can help -- and forums like this are one way but how can we overcome that disconnect? that really is a challenge in our political debate going forward when you've got members of congress passing a law that is signed into law, you know that suggests that that is viable. and so, but we know it's not as a practical matter. >> zero crime rates are not -- they may be a theoretical possibility but in the course of human events, so to speak,

it isn't happening and i think most americans grasp that. sealing the border theoretically is possible. but i think there are very few americans who would be willing to pay the cost that would be involved so that we would need on the order of 400,000 or 500,000 border patrol agents to seal the border along the -- using the tactic of simply having border patrol 25 yards from the agent next to him or her. so the difficulty is not that the american people wouldn't understand it, it's that there's a volatility to border politics. so that any particular incident gets blown into this conflagration that somehow things are out of control in ways that people are quite used

to in their neighborhood. the occurrence of a crime in the community doesn't lead people to believe that their entire community is lawless. so yeah, i think this is a problem, marshall, but the sound judgment of people when actually presented with the argument, which you want to have, make this ex-pendture for this result, as opposed to dealing with the satisfactory control of the border that i think we are moveing toward? i think that's a case that can be made. >> i'll turn the followup question to you, toreries, if it's realistically unattainable or fundamentally contrary to our national interest, economic interest, our relationship with mexico our second larblingest

trading partner, then how should we think about what is acceptable? what's the standard or metric, and this is a question that i know many of us have been grappling with, including c.b.p., but what should we be pushing toward as an acceptable level of control? >> i think in the way that alan talked about what people would consider lawlessness in their community or not, but the most important thing is to be thinking about the border as an area of law enforcement. it is we do not expect of any kind of law enforcement perfection. so what we do expect, though, is we expect that somebody is minding the store. we expect that when something happens, the 911 number will work, the police are going to come, there will be an

ambulance if needed and in the course of human events people will do bad things. that perception along the border has yet to be achieved in many -- in some places on the border but more importantly in the interior of the country. people who live along the border know the differences. one of the best examples is something we know very well, which is the tijuana river basin, further in from the soccer field, which was totally no man's land and which is now a new houseing development. people live there, right on the border. and you could not -- well, anyway, so if people who actually live there, in el paso, it's the same thing. in most other parts of the border, they recognize that there is a difference. but that has not been perceived within the rest of the country and it is also, in some parts,

especial hi in arizona, everybody will concede it has not yet met the level of control you want to have. some of that has to seep in. but i also do believe that we have to do a better job, the government has to do a bet job of laying out the evidence because the evidence has to go beyond apprehensions and beyond the way in which the commissioner explained apprehensions, that is all true, but there is much more evidence, there is enormous amount of evidence in the way that alan describes the ident system, which has not, it is being used, operationally in the way that has been described to determine what -- how the responses are to be made to any particular case but it is not aggregated, it is not available as recidivism data and there is a lot of other information, all the patterning now, the visual

information from the border, even if you can't tell the whole border, you can tell the key parts of the border because of all the technology that is there. so that the important issue of what we call the denominator, in other words how many people are actually trying to cross as compared to the numerator, the number of people that actually were apprehended, the border patrol is close to being able to know that and in many places it can know that. and there has to be in my view a great deal more debate about those kinds of outcomes as compared to the debate we're having now, which is look at all the resources we've put into it. ok, true, i'm proud of the resources we've put into it, we're all proud of how we were able to create a different managing of the intervise, but that's not ultimately -- of the

enterprise but that's not ultimately what is effectiveness. ultimate effectiveness is what are we achieving in terms of that flow. right now, of course is the perfect time to do it because we are helped by the economy. jobs are not available in the united states. the flow is way, way down for economic reasons, so there's a convergence that's taking place with the border buildup that makes it be prime time for laying out the bigger metric story. >> marshall, let me put a finer point on doris' last remark on the economic impact. there's in question the economy counts. but i think it's also important that we note that there's a long-term trend, a secular trend of decline, that begins in 2000 in the yeats that has continued unabated since. th