outlines republican proposals for economic growth and a series on the fbi begins with author ronald kessler on the work of the tactical operations unit. "washington journal" is next. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] host: the president head out on a three-state bus tour this morning. it includes four town hall style meetings and a forum bang on -- forum on economic issues. today is monday, august 15. for the first 45 minutes of the program we will be talking about the president's bus tour and whether or not this puts him on the road to economic or political recovery. the numbers if you want to get involved in the conversation --

if you have called us and the last 30 days, put down the phone today and pick up the keyboard and send us a message. you can reach us on email. the addresses -- in "usa today" this morning, one of the headlines emblematic of this day for the president. richard wolf writes --

to tell us more about the president's trip, jeff mason from reuters joins us on the phone, the white house correspondent. welcome to the program. guest: thanks very much. host: what does the president hope to accomplish with this trip? guest: well, i think there are a lot of things on the list. one is just really getting out of washington after a very divisive debate over the debt and deficits, to get out and talk to people in the heartland, as it were, to try to reconnect with the voters and to show, especially after the republican campaign has heated up, that he is in the game as well. host: some of the places he will be going includes cannon falls, minnesota, two stops in iowa and two stops and atkinson, an

illinois, and alfa, illinois. how were they chosen? guest: i can't tell you exactly but i think it is interesting to note that iowa, for one, is a state where republicans have just been competing for positioning in the straw poll that happened over the weekend. these are important states in the midwest that he will want and need to win when he runs for reelection in 2012. the white house is not describing this as a political trip. but it is a bus tour. and bus tours by nature are political trips. again, it sort of ties into the idea of getting out there into the middle of america and reconnecting with voters. that is very much what would have gone into the criteria. host: he has on his agenda several town hall meetings. these are going to be open to the general public, i presume? guest: yes. usually those types of things are open to the general public.

depending on where they go, they often have to get tickets in advance and sometimes there aren't e tickets to go round. but it is not the type of thing where audiences are chosen in the advance. host: will be be putting out any specific plans for job creation during this three-state trip? guest: it doesn't sound like it. he has been previewing the fact that he and his colleagues or staff at the white house will be putting out some job creation measures in the fall, probably as early as september. he said last week that he will be putting out proposals week by week. at we are figuring out or learning is a those proposals will probably come at the end of this month or early september and not necessarily on this tour. you did mention earlier, referring to the "usa today" piece, that he will be gone on vacation in martha's vineyard. it is more likely the proposals will come after that.

host: first, business before pleasure. it had nine and "usa today." jeff mason, white house correspondent for reuters. thank you very much. we are going to take your calls regarding the president's three- state bus tour. is this the road to economic or political recovery for the president and the obama administration? our first call comes from whitney, south carolina. james online for republicans. caller: thank you for the call. i think that it will benefit the president because of naturally he will be in touch with the folks out there where he has got to be because those are the swing states. however, my only advice for him -- i am republican, so i am against -- against the president winning next year. but my advice would be is he should drop the rhetoric about blaming george bush. i say this in all sincerity.

because i think the republicans are going to try to weigh that out or to refuse that -- reviewed -- rebut that. when congress in a wave of election to thousand six went for the democrats in the house and senate, then bush had sent messages over them to try to get all of this out. plus, the unemployment up until then, was not a factor in this country. it bush, through his first six years in office, unemployment never did go to 7%. even though he 70 -- spend a lot of money on wars and step, he did not outspend barack obama. so, the blame the bush thing, even though a lot of the propaganda went down, i think the republicans can refute that. he needs to lead george bush out of his rhetoric.

host: we will move on to evergreen, alabama, on our line for democrats. you are on "washington journal." is that macarthur? go ahead, sir. caller: i would just like the current delay -- congratulate the president tried to bring the clergy together and stuff. but what he needs to do is crackdown on all of these people who defraud medicare, over charge people for medical stuff and they are not doing nothing for the people. they have people coming back and forth to the doctor. doing nothing but taking the medicare money. something needs to be done. thank you and have a good day. host: let's move to madisonville, kentucky, on our line for republicans. i need for you to turn down your television. i am hearing some feedback. caller: all right. all i got to say this morning is, why everybody want to fight

and argue over the deficit? why can't we all just kind of gets along and try to do what is right? you know, trying to get more jobs and everything. can't we just lowered the revenue just and little bit? host: what do you think about the president's bus tour? do you think it is a way for him to get his economic policies back on track, or is it something -- is this a political trip? caller: it is probably going to be a political trip. obama is doing all right, in my opinion. he just needs to look at the johns and tried to think about -- in no, don't need to know more stimulus package. they don't do much. all these people that own companies, they have all the money. i am working man. i never did see none of it.

host: as a republican, are you going to vote for him in 2012? caller: if he turns around -- if he can turn around and create more jobs, yes, i would vote for him. host: we will leave it there, roy, in kentucky. more from the article in "usa today" this morning. back to the phones, and our discussion about the president's road trip this week.

on the road to economic or political recovery? lincoln, nebraska, we are talking to sean on our line for democrats. caller: good morning. i would like to see the president's stop in nebraska. for all the pandering the gop does into iowa, there is very little that comes into nebraska. we have three electrodes and they usually go right over to the republicans. in 2008 we split our electorial votes. i have been redistricted. i would like to see whether our elektra rowboats all go republican or get split up two- one of this next season -- all of our electoral votes of go republican or split up. host: is trying to get the economy back on track or is this for political recovery? caller: i think it is both. i think you've got to keep moving forward. but for as much as certain as

the gop makes around themselves, you still have to get out and campaign. host: jesse on our line for independents in chicago. caller: thank you for taking my call. commenting on president obama's bus tour, i think he is doing what most politicians at this point in their career would do, is try to get to the people to talk to them. but overall i don't think he will be successful in changing the minds of the republicans. because i live in chicago, harold washington, when elected, 29 of the democratic alderman begin republican because he was the first black -- in chicago. since the republicans have never had to have a boss who is not as the same race, that they will be obstructionist on every idea that he has. i hope he is successful and i think he is going to be reelected.

host: you see this road trip as traveling down the road to rico -- political recovery? guest: it will raise his poll numbers, but overall he will not be able to solve the economic problems until his second term because all of the jobs are created by companies, as everyone has said, has billions of dollars and trillions of dollars that away. what he is trying to do is convince the people -- the people who acts as a starter give jobs are not actually going to do anything until after the election. host: stephen on our line for republicans. florida. welcome to the program. caller: how are you? host: is this trip but on the road for economic recovery or political recovery? caller: this is a political recovery for the present. i am a small businessman. i own my own plumbing supply business, like my father does.

i am on a business trip in georgia and south carolina this morning as i am talking to you. this is disgusting what is going on. this man is running around in three states, a bus tour, trying to recover from all of the turmoil that is going on. nobody is spending money and nobody will spend money with this man because he is so unpredictable. every day he does something different. i am mostly angry at his policies, not at the man. of the man had nothing to do with it. his policies are killing this country. host: memphis, tennessee. we've got james on the line for democrats. caller: i think this is an economical trip. what we need in this country is jobs. nobody is going to get anything by holding still. are going to be some reforms for

the medicare and probably tax reforms. if we work together we can get it done. host: in "of los angeles times" this headline --

houston, texas, abdel on online for independents. this bus trip for the president, on the road to economic recovery before the administration or political recovery for the president? caller: i think it is purely political recovery for the president. i used to be a die-hard democrat, 150% 4 obama in 2008 but through his policies and his economic policies, he has basically driven me away from the democrats and i consider myself independent. i think if he really wants to get us back, he should do an interview with a real journalist realamy goodman from "democracy now" and convince us he is doing it for the best of the country because right now it is not working. he is just not doing his job right. host: or maybe an interview with our own brian lamb --

caller: brian lamb, i was watching him right now. a real journalist. not going to msnbc or other networks. basically just talking about football and his life. we are not interested in that. we are interested in what he is doing for the country right now. host: aberdeen, washington. sallet, on our line for republicans. caller: thank you. i am a first-time caller but i did grow up in iowa and it is the four-o'clock where i am calling. for the bus tour, i really do believe it is a political tour he is taking through minnesota and iowa. and i say that because while i live, we have had three huge mills closed down. i lost my job. and i did not see that we ever came out of the recovery. maybe some parts of these united states did come out of the recovery. but i feel like our area did

not. our area was in a depressed area before we even had this recession. i have little trust in this government, and i do not feel like the stimulus worked. i got into a debate with somebody and i said, you know, it matters what you spend the money on. that money should have been for a shovel-ready jobs and it did not -- did not go for that. i feel a lot of the stimulus money, the $787 billion i think that money was wasted. i think it went to liberal wish list like ms. pelosi's field mice. and i saw something on fox where some of the money went to watch shrimp on a treadmill and how some of the money went to chinese prostitutes to get them off and giving blackberries to

people to quit smoking. host: we got this tweet from fed -- also, on the front page of "the baltimore sun" this morning, we've got this piece from peter nicholas who is from the washington bureau.

back to the phones. baltimore, maryland. kathleen on our line for democrats. caller: this is my first time calling, and certainly i believe it is a combination of a political -- economics first and political tour. the president is doing the best he can, and i would like to see him bring back -- they don't like this -- the fact that -- look at the hand he was dealt with. we have had eight years of what president, which contributed to some of this economic problems we are having. however, the president of the united states is doing the best pecan and i know he is trying to bring these people together but so many of these people he is dealing with that oppose him to not know anything about the guy

did -- host: his administration has been in office for almost three years. at what point does of the administration have to take responsibility for where the economy is an " referring back to what happened during the previous administration? caller: it is a fact he has been and there three years. but it cannot be turned around overnight when you have so many oppositions. your wall street folks, but i hate to use the word republicans, are responsible. but i do know for a fact that many of the other opponents are republicans that are against this man other than what is going on in the country. many republicans do not come into a democrat state and try to let us know what is going on and how they are handling situations with the president. i really have disregard for so many of those who are running around.

what are they doing? is that political? host: we will move on to mount vernon, new york. richard on the line for republicans. caller: i agree with what you just said to that later. at what point does it belong to the democrats? caller: richard, as far as the president's bus trip -- caller: if you was doing a good job he would not be out there now. the american people are also on vacation, it is called unemployment. my biggest problem -- black people, we have what we call coloritis. we are black and he is black so he is all right. we don't stand back and looked exactly of what he has done. people are sitting on the sidewalk watching tv in front of

houses they don't own any more and they keep blaming bush. they don't want to hear this. the people who are out there don't want to hear about a fault, but they want to hear a solution. host: richard, thanks for the comment. in "the washington post" e.j. dionne has this item. this op-ed piece goes on to say --

chicago, illinois. on our line for democrats. you are on "washington journal." carrie, is this trip on the road to economic or political recovery? caller: my question is -- when you pose a question gives the appearance as if there is something wrong with either way. the man has to get his message out. you hear all the time, if anyone keeps up what is going on, they lie about what he is doing all the time. the media does not even correct it most of the time when they have a pundit on, and opposition republican on, that says things

are untrue. it is rare you save a person with credibility even correct him. he made a comment about how long can president obama keep blaming bush. i will tell you this -- it took more than three years to get into this situation. he should put the focus where it belongs as long as it is not corrected. the media keeps trying to keep his administration from talking about what happens in the bush term. host: chicago, illinois. we will leave it there. we also want to remind our viewers and listeners the conversation continues as well as hear on television, radio, twitter, and also on facebook. you can go to our facebook page and get involved in the conversation. the address is facebook.com -- that is where you will find as -- facebook.com/c-span, right there on the screen.

back to our phones, raleigh, north carolina, on our line for independents. elizabeth, go ahead. caller: let's tell the truth. host: what is the truth? caller: obama inherited the foreclosures, the job loss, and the recession. and he inherited it from eight years of george bush and republican policies. that almost destroyed our country. and the republicans are mad because obama won and are bullies on the playground. i am an independent. i voted for some good people from both parties. but if the republicans want my vote they've got to start acting like men or women instead of just belize. i am tired -- tired of just this no, no, to everything.

host: lakeland, florida. james on our line for republicans. caller: ok. i grew up during the great depression. it started with herbert hoover and it was always known as the hoover depression. but eight years of it was under franklin delano roosevelt. he didn't bring us out of the recession until world war ii came along. but always when we grow up, a will barrow was known as a hoover-buggy because of a wpa using the wheel barrow to haul stuff around, it was known as a hoover-buggy and hoover was out of office four years and it was always known as the hoover depression. host: all right, james. so let's get into modern history and let us talk about

the trip the president is taking this week. on the road to economic or political recover? caller: i think it is both. he wants to talk about -- he's got some program, i don't know what, and he wants to tell that. but he will also politick while he is there too. it will have a segment of both of them in there. host: we will leave it there. james in lakeland, forward. john harwood writes in "the new york times" this morning -- cannon falls, minnesota, the first stop in his road trip.

on the road to economic recovery or political recover? cleveland, mississippi. on our line for democrats. lucinda, you are on "washington journal." caller: good morning, thank you. i would like to say -- about when do we stop blaming bush. when the president took office, he was given a credit card. on that credit card was the

wars, medicare part d, it was the bush tax cut, and it wasn't paid for. and it is still on the card. until that card is paid, you can't say it is not bush's fault. it took eight years to get into this mess that we are in. host: what about today -- caller: i think the bus tour is a economic and political endeavor. and it is much needed. everybody else can get out and campaign, i think the president has the right to campaign. i think the president has the right to put forth his ideas as well without any blocking. because the republicans blocked him on everywhere he goes. the main thing is to make sure that he is a one-term president. they are in concert with all of this. host: ed ward, in richmond, virginia, on the line for

independents. caller: this is basically an economical tour. i hear a lot saying, bring the jobs back to america. it is not happening there and applauding these jobs, businesses, and industries, have already started to realize this. it is cheaper to make it overseas. i have been fortunate enough to work for a major fortune 500 company -- in fact as early as 2006, they decided back then. what the market, the industry, what was going on, it was cheaper. you had different things happening in europe. the european union. yet the choice of the euro been stronger than the american dollar. major independent businesses and corporations being allowed for certain deregulation, to trade and shipping their businesses overseas. on the political mind-set -- well, if they buy the product in that country we have to put facilities here. it has been for the longest time. people have to realize it.

times r changes. they are shifting economically. even going back to the military. certain groups and parties were establishing themselves -- the no-bid contracts like with halliburton. big business, political and government groups have already put the fix and. host: we will leave it there in a richmond, virginia. this op-ed piece in this morning's "usa today."

host: north carolina on our line for republicans. go ahead. caller: this is a political trip. host: you think it is a political trip and not an economic trip? caller: right. because he would not be out there now if it wasn't a

political trip. he is trying to persuade people now. host: will leave from north carolina. thanks for the call. ian "politico" this morning. obama's vision problem is the headline.

san francisco, california, on our line for democrats. you are on the "washington journal." caller: good morning, robb, and thank you for c-span. it basically, when president obama was elected into office, he was like a co-signer for the house, for $11.50 trillion credit-card bill that was not paid for under bush. he spent the last two years trying to fix it and catch up with that and all he faced was obstructionists' from the republicans and a lot of the blue dogs in congress. just like the bailout, just like the jobs recovery act. everything was publicized as, it's not working. the week after it was released, it's not working. just like health care. people were talking about health care. most of the health care deal did

not kick in for two to three years. we have a messaging problem, we have a listening problem. we have a bunch of idiots in the media that seems to want to follow sarah palin and santorum and those people and they failed to report anybody when they call or are in front of the cameras saying the wrong thing or something totally inaccurate. there should be a law against that. as far as the bus tour, yes, he should get out on the bus tour. and a man needs a vacation. he should take a nice, long vacation. he is the only one working. host: steven san francisco. the president's budget for sure seems like a political rather than a governing tour. this is from an e-mail that we have from john. he goes on to say --

brooksville, florida, on our line for republicans. you are on the "washington journal." burris? caller: this is chris. host: are you in brooksville, chris? go-ahead. caller: go ahead. thank you. i think the economics have to be tied to the political because the economy is a big problem for him politically. they are both combined. but i get a little tired of people wanting to blame everything on bush and expect no culpability by president obama. his first year he had a super majority in the house and he had a filibuster-proof majority in

the senate, for a whole year. they could have done anything they wanted. but they fought amongst themselves. it has nothing to do with the republicans. the health care thing they passed. republicans had nothing to do with that. they didn't ask them what they wanted were to bring input because they didn't need their input. if you don't need the other parties input, especially with something like that, you are not going to ask them what they want. you are going to make them sit on the sidelines and just say this is our deal, to the victor goes the spoils. host: the lead story in "the new york times" this morning. after i will vote, republicans face a new landscape. and also the lead story in "the washington post."

both of those lead stories in their respective papers. we want to take a break from our phone calls from viewers and listeners this morning to check in with the cairo bureau chief from "the washington post" to get an update on egyptian president hosni mubarak. welcome to "washington journal." in the associated press, at the egyptian judge stopped the live trial broadcast. bring us up to speed on what is going on with regards to the trial. and as we listen to you, we want to show the viewers' some footage we are getting from egypt tv. guest: the former president of egypt appears that for the second time in court today. the session ended with the judge saying he would no longer allow the trial to be broadcast live for egyptians. this was a hard fought win for

protesters demanded more transparency and will likely be met with derision. it was also somewhat of a violent day outside of the courtroom, where protesters, both pro- and anti clashed. passions overflowing about their feelings seeing the president in the cage once again. host: tell us where we are in the trial proceedings. caller: right now they adjourned until september 5. the judge decided to combine the case of mubarak and his sons with the former security chief. both accused of ordering the killings of protesters. this decision was actually met with quite exuberance by protesters and lawyers representing the families of the slain protesters. nearly 900 people were killed during the 18-day uprising. that was met with quite a lot of happiness. this is something they want to

say. they want to see them all tried together. a on september 5, the court will resume again. and right now the judges are dealing with the demands of both dead -- defense and the lawyers for the families of slain protesters. host: we are talking with the cairo bureau chief of "the washington post." looking at footage that we got from egypt tv that was recorded earlier today in. in washingtonpost.com, you can see some of the writings of ms. fadel. the protests and demonstrations calling on the outside of the trial, do they show any signs of subsiding as the trial has been put on hold until the beginning of september, or will they just -- keep on rising through this? guest: at the end of the trout

the protest were subsiding slightly. it was not huge crowds, a few hundred on both sides. but the passions over the road and there were a lot of boxed throne, bottles, and at one point the worst mass shankar's and vehicles. a huge security presence today, much larger than the first day of trial on august 3. riot police were out in full gear. but there is concern at this trial could further destabilize egypt, especially if it does not go the way people wanted it. a poll showed 76% of egyptians would like to see mubarak tried and convicted and many would like to see him with life in prison or the death penalty. protesters against mubarak today were holding nooses and carrying signs of sign, we are sorry, mr. president, your execution has been delayed. this is a very passionate time, historic in the sense that people are watching their former president be tried by the system he put in place. host: we are running out of

time, but i wanted to ask you briefly, for those who might be watching either on egypt tv or some other a outlets, describe for us the differences, the major differences between a trial in -- and a trial in the united states. guest: here in egypt, of the defendants are held in a prosecution cage in every court room. the prosecution of the state lodges the charges against the defendant and there is a panel of judges who oversee the court room. the defense attorneys of these late defend the defendants and there are also a series of lawyers advocating for the families of the protesters, that are separate from the state prosecution. host: of last question -- can you tell us how this is being played out, how the trial was being played out by other leaders in the region looking in on this? what are their feelings?

guest: i think this is very disconcerting for them. egypt, after tunisia, was one of the first revolutions of the arab uprising or the arab spring, as the culprit now and syria where president bush are out -- bashar al-assad it is suppressing, and gaddafi, calling for people to liberate libya from the rebels, this may cause them to dig in their heels harder because they are watching a half apart, another dictator, go to trial and be behind a cage in a bed with an ivy to in his arm. i think this is very concerning for him and probably and end they don't want to see for themselves. host: washington post bureau chief, you can read more upper postings from egypt at washingtonpost.com. thank you for being on the program. our last call for this segment, talking about the president's

bus trip, the road to economic recovery or political recovered, comes from and this, tennessee, on our line for independents. caller: how are you doing? host: just fine. is this endo? go ahead. caller: i believe it is both economic and political bus tour for the president. he is pressing forward with his ideas and what he thinks. really some type of economic stability and getting out of this recession. and both politically, what is going on, in iowa now with the straw poll, and letting people know views and ideas of what he

believes the direction the country should take. i think it is both economic and political. but the president -- a lot of the rhetoric getting from the tea party conservatives of the republican party. host: and we will have to leave it there. coming up after the break, a discussion on the president's plan for job creation, followed later on in the program by and look at the republican strategy for jobs. but first, this news break from c-span radio. >> 45 past the hour. minnesota public radio reports that tim pawlenty's home state gop sees a silver lining in the end of his presidential campaign. the state's republican party chairman says "now that he is not running for president, i sure hope he would consider running for u.s. senate." just recently the former

minnesota governor dismissed the idea of running against incumbent senator amy, which are -- his campaign did not respond to a request for comment about the system. an update on the bin laden rate. "the financial times" reports pakistan allowed chinese military engineers to photograph and take samples from a top- secret stealth helicopter that u.s. special forces left behind when they killed osama bin laden. a senior administration official says the situation doesn't make us happy. but they have little recourse. in london, stock futures pointing to a higher opening for here on wall street today after data showed a smaller than expected contraction in the japanese economy. ahead of the bell, dow futures are now up 44 points. those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> watch more video of candidates, see what reporters are saying, and track the latest campaign contributions, with c-

span's website for campaign 2012. it helps you navigate the political landscape with twitter fees and facebook updates -- biographies and the latest polling data, plus links to c- span media partners in the early primary and caucus states. all at c-span.org/campaign2012. "washington journal" continues. host: andrew fieldhouse joins us from the economic policy institute to talk about the president's proposals for job creation. welcome to "washington journal." guest: thanks for having me. host: does the president have a firm plan for creating jobs, and if so, lay it out. guest: i think the president has articulated several things clearly. he pushed for a jobs agenda. the most visible near term items of the extension of the payroll tax cut an emergency unemployment benefits as part of the tax compromise.

withdrawing the measures would create a real drag -- that is the first do no harm principle. it does not actually add to the growth on the margin. beyond that, he pushed for an infrastructure bank, he pushed for increasing infrastructure investment. $213 billion additional infrastructure investment over the next decade. but congress has not been able to meet him on increased surface transportation spending. part would include a $40 billion infrastructure bank, which i think it is a great idea. but then, a lot of his policies are focused on long-term growth than near-term. and i don't think it has been made clear. patten's reform is probably a real sensible thing to do but you will not see jobs in the next two or three years -- patent reform is probably ever sensible thing to do. but the voters have in mind -- near term job creation and a much lower unemployment.

host: we've got a chart from "the wall street journal" which has four measures you touched on briefly. i want to go through all for more detailed explanation, andrew fieldhouse. first, extending a payroll tax cut for another year. how in the president's mind and in the mind of the administration, how will it create jobs? guest: right now easy the consumer in no position to lead the recovery. personal consumption expenditure unexpectedly fell in june. we saw 0.1% added to -- growth gdp growth from personal consumption -- remember, consumption accounts for 70% of the economic activity for this country. between stagnant wages, high unemployment, and sweeping foreclosure crisis that has gone unaddressed, the consumer is not in the position to spend a lot of money. saving rates are up a little bit. but you will not see a pickup in

consumption until wages and salaries pickup. by increasing disposable income, the payroll tax cut would help that. you are essentially transferring debt from the private sector to the public sector. the payroll tax cut reduces employees' social security contributions by 2%, the maximum cut is about $2,100 for the top earners. another -- host: another item mentioned by the president and getting a lot of write ups and various newspapers is the creation of an infrastructure bank. what is an infrastructure bank and how will that put more people to work? guest: the idea is you would partner with the private sector, there would be cost sharing and the federal government would pick up some of the risk but you could somehow leverage public dollars. i think this would help.

i think there are a lot of infrastructure projects that have not been taken on. i certainly think state and local governments are not in a position to pick up a lot of infrastructure investment right now. the budget crisis will be as bad if not worse and and the 2010 fiscal crisis because money from the recovery act is pretty much gone. it really comes down to the federal government. my only concern with an infrastructure bank at the present time is that the private sector has not been willing to invest in anything. they did not say a higher rate of return because there is not consumer demand. there's a reason treasury rates are at historically low levels. i think there is a case to be made that only the federal government is in a position to push the economy forward. i think establishing an infrastructure bank is a great project. i think it will be more effective when growth has picked up.

but for near-term job creation i think direct spending in infrastructure makes more sense, hire bang for the buck. host: talking about president obama's proposals for job creation with andrew fieldhouse, federal budget policy analyst with the economic policy institute. if you want to get involved, give us a call -- and we've got a special line for business owners -- 202-737- 2579 is our line for business owners. what you think about the president's proposals for job creation. before we get to the phones, tell us the difference between the infrastructure bank and the stimulus program that the president got a lot of criticism for when it was instituted?

guest: the stimulus program was much larger. it cost about $821 billion, and about one-third was tax cuts and tax rebates. a lot was the aid to states. we increased the federal matching rate for medicaid, which plug a lot of state budget shortfalls. and unemployment insurance, a huge expansion of food stamps. it infrastructure component was only about $46 billion. not nearly as large as it should have been. thinking about deficit finance the most -- you are borrowing at an interest rate. federal government, 2.2% over 10 years. if you have a rate of return that exceeds that you have no problem financing. the case that and the structure has rate of return above 2%, pretty clear cut. you saw the bill watered-down to include more tax relief and

less of infrastructure spending. of the econometrics suggest taxes have much lower impact per dollar. in fact, the alternative minimum tax, which is not been lifted and anyway, was included in that stimulus package. there were a lot of things in the stimulus package. the american society of civil engineers estimates we have a $2 trillion deficit and infrastructure and the next 12 years. host: our discussions of the president's proposals for job creation with andrew fieldhouse of the economic policy institute. our first caller is from sarasota, florida. peter on our line for business owners. tell us about your business and then give us your question. caller: i am a graduate of fordham university in new york -- the two businesses i own, one was international business publication, and that was in texas, in houston.

the other business that i had was a university consulting business that was out of pr where i dealt with 12 universities down there -- out of puerto rico where i dealt with 12 university down there and placed international students from germany and europe as well -- i am fluent in six languages and a dual citizen in hungary. i was up in washington, d.c., talking to the hungarian embassy about dual citizenship. i will hang up after this -- what is your opinion in terms of what the fed reserve and the federal reserve bank governors will be doing in terms of credit policy and monetary policy relative to small business owners. i am retired now down in sarasota and we own property down here. of a foreclosure market is miserable down here. florida, as you know statistically, is no. 1 nationally and residential foreclosures. i would like you to address the

issue of what bernanke and the federal reserve bank governors are going to be doing about the credit market policy and loaning money to small business owners. i will hang up and listen to your comments. host: andrew fieldhouse, the wellhead. guest: the federal reserve has to do more to help. it should be made clear that a lot of what they did in 2008 has already been done. they cannot lower short-term interest rates. and federal fiscal policy is in a much better position to address the jobs crisis. that being said, i do believe the fed will reserve will embark in a third round of quantitative easing, the purchase of long- term bonds. they had recently purchased $600 billion in long-term treasury debt. i suspect that you may see the fed resume purchases of asset backed securities, particularly mortgage-backed securities. when standard and poor's downgraded the u.s. credit

rating, the also downgraded ratings on fannie mae and freddie mac, which collectively own or in short half of the residential mortgage market. while we have seen interest rates for the treasury fall, you will see an increase in the cost of borrowing for fannie and freddie, and as a result, mortgage rates will go up. i think the fed buying more mortgage-backed securities will help lower interest rates but there is a limit how much lower interest rates can do to resuscitate the market. we still have close to one-third of homeowners under water, 1 million homes have been foreclosed in the last few years and without targeting -- right to rent or bankruptcy reform or forcing banks to write down printable, i did not think you will see a real correction in the housing market. beyond that, i think the federal reserve should eliminate its rate of return on reserves. right now it is paying banks a

quarter of a percentage point in interest on reserves held by the fed. that is lower than their short- term interest and actually above what investors are willing to lend to the treasury for two years. i think you would see an increase in consumer lending of the fed no longer paid banks. and then there is the option of a higher inflation target which would help reduce the net present value of homeowner debt. the targeting 3% inflation instead of two, would have a big compound affect the next five years. host: scranton, pennsylvania. a pall on the line for democrats. you are on "washington journal" with andrew fieldhouse. caller: in scranton, when i was in school -- i am 60 years old now. there were so many factories. had all their factories and pennsylvania, making clothes. rca had a huge facility.

you name it, we made it in pennsylvania, and now we don't make anything. there are enough factories. the job creators that the republicans talk about, obviously they are not creating any jobs. they are destroying jobs. they are moving everything overseas. i saw on "60 minutes" last night, all the corporations, they just a post office box in switzerland and they don't pay any u.s. taxes because sorts of an's tax rate is 15% -- switzerland's tax rate is 15%, half of ours. host: we will leave it there. you gave us some information to work with. tack on to that, andrew fieldhouse, one of the president's proposals for job creation deals with passage of free trade deals. give us a little more details about that in terms of some of what the last caller had to say. guest: sure, what paul is saying

-- he is right, our tax code does have an insidious designed that encourages firms to move production overseas. we allow firms to voluntary -- voluntarily repatriate money, they do not have to bring it back and pay tax on that unless they want to. it means they never have to. part of the gop jobs plan is allow corporations to move upwards of $2 trillion and foreign profits back to the united states at an absurdly low tax rate, 5.25%. we tried this in 2004. almost all went to stock repurchases and dividend payments even though it was not supposed to, money is fungible. this is a windfall, andending te

would be a good way to stop -- with regards to the free-trade agreement, if you believe the free trade agreement creates job, it is like tax reform. you will not see jobs created immediately. i think what the president is missing in his immediate approach to foreign trade is the currency manipulation in china. my colleague has estimated that 2.4 million manufactured jobs were displaced due to china between 2001 and 2008. i think that we can solve the global and balanced trade and make manufacturing more competitive.

within 18 to 24 months, we would see a change as a result of a weaker dollar. would passage of these free trade deals bring more u.s. companies back doing business? guest: the tax code is more important in terms of bringing manufacturing back to the united states. host: san antonio, texas, on our line for business owners. what is your business and what is your question? caller: what is going to happen in the transportation industry? it seems like every day there is a new tax that the government is pretty much of forcing corporations to have.

people are talking about having to reform the tax code. when it comes to transportation or trucking companies, we have to do something. we do not get any tax breaks. if anything, we see tax hikes or fees. i'd like to get an explanation on that. guest: are refocusing -- the tax rates at the federal level are incredibly low. part of it is a consequence of a deep recession. in large part of it is due to tax hikes. president obama had a new tax cuts in the recovery act. we have not seen large tax

increases at the federal level. i cannot speak to what has been passed in texas. i do not think tax rates are really the problem. the lack of aggregate demand, the lack of conception -- if people sought a wage increase, their disposable income would rise. we have a really weak economy. it is running almost at $1 trillion below potential -- the economy is still very much the press. that is a much bigger concern. if you do not have an opportunity to expand your business with new customers, that is going to hurt your bottom line. was: andrew field houshouse

working as an assistant budget analyst with the house budget committee. how long ago was that? guest: most of a1 day11tthe 111h congress. host: ok. let's go back to the phones. caller: i do not note economics very well. but i want to talk about the core gdp. ours is starting to fail. why haven't the congressman issued junk bonds said that we can invest in our own tax i should be able to invest in greensboro and get to the return -- we can rebuild the

transportation sector if we have cash for the regular people. guest: i think you see a very weak economy out there. consumer credit has retracted enormously. some are afraid to take on risk at the banks. we see that with a revolving into non revolving credit. there is a limit to how much the federal government can do for individuals. most revolve lowering in -- most involve lowering interest rates. i do not think you will see a direct lending program. it is more efficient on creating

jobs, increase aggregate demand, with the exception of doing something to address the foreclosure crisis. host: steve is a business owner from livingston, new jersey. talkr: i want tolk about the garment industry. is no manufacturing inrin manhattan. -- how are those jobs ever going to come back to america? host: what business do you have? caller: we live on the domestic side of the garment, which used to be a huge business in new york. today it is down to a minuscule

business. there is absolutely very little manufacturing in garments. you can bring in a suit from china for $60. there is no possible way these jobs are ever coming back to america. it used to be a tremendous industry in america. host: is the garment industry ever coming back to the united states? guest: it is very hard to bring industries back at a certain point if it has been gone for a long time. that may be the case for the garment industry. simply by having the dollar and a juan aligned instead of the depreciation, you would see a different balance with china. more construction of our exports.

consumer fewer of the chinese exports. china's export-led growth model -- they face the question of rebalancing their economy. they can consume more and they are saving. the united states is barring a huge amount of money. a more balanced global economy for the sake of decreasing inflation in china, appreciating their currency would be a good way of stabilizing the global economy. i am not sure which industries are likely to bounce back. i think you would see a rise in u.s. manufacturing. manufacturing capacity is at 75% right now.

it would not be hard to set it back up towards historical levels. host: washington post, a charge on democratic and job creation. a tax credit for hiring new workers. ellen fannie mae and freddie mac to read foreclosed properties. and school construction and renovation. among these four, which has the most combined support between house and senate democrats and the president? guest: today become a little tricky these days. two of the bills that i like in the house of representatives are from a congresswoman on the restore the american dream act, and put america to work act. both focus on direct job creation.

the first plan would hire students to work in the national park and hire students into teachers, put teachers in classrooms, hire cops and firefighters, employs 650,000 americans to do maintenance on schools that are in disrepair. she estimates it would create 2.2 million jobs. it would cost 17 billion over two years. -- two under $17 billion over two years. -- $210 billion over two years. host: ditches say where she was going to get the money? -- did she say where she was going to get the money? guest: anything short-term and

temporary should be just with finance. we have eliminated federal borrowing through 2012. if you can get around the debt ceiling, subliminally increasing the debt ceiling -- offsetting a something over 10 years is not that difficult. you could do half a trillion dollars. the priority is much more in creating jobs. there is no evidence that investors are worried about the united states' ability to repay. they are willing to take losses on any other investment -- the inflation protection treasury rates have been negative for most of this year.

the concern is the weak economy. host: that get back to the phones, greensboro, n.c., on the line for democrats. caller: thanks for taking my call. i'm very concerned that our legislative leaders do not know the difference between plants and job creation. i agree that it has to be direct. the public must see people they know and people in their families having some type of job. the public could be asked to subsidize construction. people that have would share.

i appreciate you letting me have this call. guest: i think the caller is absolutely right. we have to think about many prongs, the continuation of unemployment insurance. my strategy for job creation is first, do no harm. did not cut government spending in the near term. second, massive infrastructure investment. you could put a lot of people back to work in the construction and manufacturing industries. repairing infrastructure cost more in the future. third, resolve the state budget crisis. there is a $97 billion shortfall with what the states receive in

revenue and this fiscal year. you can close two-thirds of that -- i think a more targeted tax relief would help. and you just cannot do a hiring tax credit. we did one, $13 billion, and it was way too small. it is about aggregate demand. you need a multi pronged approach. host: cleveland, ohio, on our line for business owners. caller: i am enjoying hearing some of the comments that people are making. i would like to contribute to this problem has been going on with manufacturing, the loss of our economy, the banks manipulating the markets since the 1960's.

there has been a down spiro until at absent -- down a spiral until it exploded in recent years. the banks but broke out with mortgages. and they are able to charge you different fees. in most cases, the branches were branching out -- the banks from branching out but the money was finally back to the banks. with the real estate the manipulation with the real- estate is the same trickle-down effect. carrying the mortgages -- now they are increasing these fees and are pursuing other

individuals under the fannie mae and freddie mac contract and get them to refinance and manipulate that money where the mortgage brokers are walking away with $12,000 or more. host: what kind of business do you own and what kind of hiring you have been able to do for the last few years? caller: before real estate, i was seeking out different business potentials i could get into. i did a thorough research. the manufacturing industry -- host: we are going to leave it there and move on to pittsburgh. caller: thanks for being on and

discussing these problems that we have. a want to mention two things. that president obama would have taken an fdr approach as far as handling everything from day one. i realize that watching c-span from 2006 all the way through, i have seen destruction from the republican end, where they were obstructing left and right anything that had it to do with benefiting plans for employment for workers over here. the costly work shipping employment overseas. i believe originally obama

wanted to have a $3 trillion deal to get america back to work. in addition to that, -- host: we will leave it there. indra, your thoughts? -- andrew, your thoughts? guest: a huge grab -- gap between gdp and actual output. when the stimulus money really kicked in, we saw the economy turn around. every private sector forecaster

severely underestimated the severity of the downturn. we just discovered at the end of july, that the growth coming out of it has been much weaker. policy decisions have been based on faulty data that understated the problem. the growth in the first half of the year has been one-third of the rate to keep the unemployment rate from rising. on the second point, the caller is right. this is not a new problem. we salting month extensions of emergency unemployment benefits. -- we saw two months extensions of emergency unemployment benefits. we have seen a chronic republican opposition to common-

sense measures to keep the economy stronger and help those that lost a job find a new job. host: earlier there was discussion about the federal reserve in the times this morning. they have an op-ed rights the fed must fix on a fresh target. time for another stimulus? guest: absolutely. it helped immensely.

host: how big? guest: 800? 2100 -- 6 then do, we did $160 billion for unemployment insurance. we spend close to $1 trillion on stimulus, but not nearly enough. it is time for another very large stimulus. if it did not prove to be enough [inaudible] host: how much more do we need it? guest: we face a gap of what we could be producing if industrial capacity was up.

$315 billion of smart stimulus. host: any chance the president could a cell that on capitol hill? guest: it seems unlikely. this would be in addition to extending unemployment insurance and the payroll tax. you could reverse -- reduce unemployment one. million. by philip -- one. million jobs. -- about one million jobs. host: we have a few more minutes with andrew fieldhouse. from tennessee, on our line from

republicans, welcome. caller: i am going to put this fellow and president obama in a box. president bush had a surplus when he came into office. i will take that. january of 10,007, we were billions of dollars in debt. that is the year -- january 2007, we were billions of dollars in debt. that is when the democrats took over. [unintelligible] in july, the president said we did not have enough money to pay our bills in august is 3 angus $6 billion. he could live -- $306 billion. he couldn't put is failed

stimulus plan money -- he could have used his failed stimulus plan money to pay for some of that. [unintelligible] the democrat say they have plenty of money. they have plenty of money in i'll use. -- iou's. host: assess his numbers. guest: president clinton -- when the obama came into office, he inherited over $1 trillion from president bush. regarding the death, we had $800 billion -- regarding the deatbte had a hundred billion dollars.

the accumulation of debt is not the worst thing that can happen to the united states. allowing the economy to fall back in recession is the worst you can do. the stimulus was remarkably successful. no private forecaster will tell you that it failed. cutting spending, reduce aggregate demand, which causes a job losses. host: have someone the dallasorrom airport in rights of this. -- and writes this. guest: i think there are things

the president can do by executive order. get fannie mae and freddie mac to refinance mortgages across the country at low interest rates. refinancing would be immensely helpful if you lock individuals into a 4.5% interest rate. that would help boost consumption and you would reduce the amount of debt over hanging in this country. doing some things by executive order would help the crisis. in terms of stimulating demand from infrastructure, a unit congressional authority and money. host: western ohio on our line for democrats. co-head. -- go ahead. no? let us move on to our line for democrats.

caller: i am so disgusted with people who think the president is not doing a kid up into trying. -- is not doing a good job and trying. he did tax cuts for the republicans. they said they were the wrong kinds of tax cuts. in may, not this year, but in august we had the biggest disaster of all time down in the gulf. that is what he gets for going along with republicans and their drill, drill, drill. then they want to stop unemployment benefits. when they voted, they all voted for it.

if they could have gotten away with it, we would have lost all of our benefits. host: she talks about tax cuts, right tax cuts and wrong tax cuts. assess the guest: myrim. guest: the gop is cutting the tax rate to 25%, the lowest it has been in this country. you are getting the government if you cut the levels below what we had in 1960, it is a deliberate attempt to affect medicare and medicaid. it does not have to do with job creation. there is not a strong argument that we are over-taxed. i do not think you will see robust long-term economic growth.

you will not see an improvement near term by cutting taxes. the economy has a huge supply of labor that would love to work. the problem is demand. i do not think it is a credible solution. maybe some targeted tax rebate. anything to an individual income tax rate is a way to hedge funds self inc.. it does not create jobs. corporate welfare. host: for more information on the economic policy institute, go to their website ,epi.org. coming up, a look at the job proposals being put forth by the

republicans. but first, in other news update from c-span radio. >> in a national news, an update on libya. the country's interior minister and nine family members have flown to cairo on their private plane. it appears to be the highest level of defection from the muammar gaddafi regime in months. officials say they entered on a tourist visa. in cairo, the presiding judge in the trial of an ousted egyptian president president mubarak has decided to stop light -- live tv broadcasts of the proceeding. the trial has been adjourned until september 5. violence in iraq as bombs exploded in more than one dozen iraqi cities that killed several people, most in a southern city. the violence comes as iraqi officials are trying to wait if they can protect the country without the assistance of american troops scheduled to end

at the end of this -- scheduled to leave at the end of this year. those are our updates on c-span. >> here with political reporters are saying in the track the latest campaign contributions with cs paeans website for campaign 2012. easy-to-use, -- c-spans website for 2012. easy to use. it has latest polling data. all at c-span.org/campaign2012. host: we continue covered discussion of proposals for job creation, this time from the republican perspective. joining us now is a philipswagel, former assistant treasury secretary for economic policy before george bush.

how would you sum this up? guest: we must step back and diagnose the problem. you will not treat the patient without figuring out what is wrong. we have now had -- it is hard to make a diagnosis that we have not had enough government stimulus. monetary policy has not been active enough. i would look at the economy and say what are some firms holding a lot of cash and not investing. why are consumers hesitating to spend? some of these are fundamental. an earthquake in japan. oil prices are high. for the most part, these are fundamental problems and uncertainties. tax rates, energy prices, health

care costs, many are giving household caution before spending. those of the areas i would address first. some of these uncertainties are holding back the economy. host: with the job creation this low -- was at this low during the bush administration or did it come about when the obama administration moved into office? guest: today reminds me somewhat of president bush's first term. when i first started -- i was there twice. july i 2002. we were out of the recession but losing jobs. every month, we had in a -- employment news release, and it

was bad news. the news today is not losing jobs. the economy is adding jobs but at a very unsatisfactory pace. this is not named. we have had an unsatisfactory economic performance since 2008. host: the president has several proposals that he says can help with job creation. let's look at some of the strings and liabilities. first a slowing the tax rate to 25 percent sign. -- 25%. guest: these are not president obama proposals. [unintelligible]

the rescue for tax reform is lower tax rates and broaden the base. 5% if thatown to 20 represent were possible, great. tax reform will be part of that to broaden the base. deductions the people in georgia will be on the table. how to bring the tax rate down as low as possible, there is a challenge. -- host: what are the other job creation proposals put forth by republicans? congressional review of regulations. how would that work and create jobs?

guest: it would be very unwieldly to have congress reviewed every regulation one by one. there must be some framework in which congress provides oversight for regulations. nlrb -- an unprecedented move. we are not sure we will allow you to moved to south carolina to have new facilities. that kind of government action -- there are many in congress that wants increased oversight. how exactly that would happen is a discussion that has to take place.

host:phil swagel joins us. if you want to get involved in the conversation, they number2 is02-624-1115 for republicans. 202-624-1111 for democrats. 202-624-0760 for independents. a special line for a business owner 20,2-737-2572-737-2579. our first caller. host: [inaudible]

you give out a person to a $110,000 loan, give them 70%. the other 30% to give them bonds. that would keep other foreigners from buying all of our bonds. -- what is the incentive for big corporations to go along with these programs? small loans -- we need to have loans backed by bonds so small --est: ses can't fi guest: spall businesses are having a difficult time getting

credit. -- small businesses are having a difficult time getting credit. one of the first things president obama announced was the small business lending program that never even started. it is an illustration of how difficult it is to address this problem. the fed is taking a lot of action with its monetary policy. the federal government has launched a credit program for small businesses. it is tough for the government to be a lender. we really want the private sector to do that activity rather than the federal government. host: a professor at the university of maryland. our next caller comes from dayton, ohio, on the line for democrats. caller: i want the public to

understand the 2010 election was all about jobs. the campaign about getting people back to work. they got elected republicans, since they have won, they have been cutting, cut, cut. when you cut government, you cut the jobs. why don't they take furloughs or lay off people from their jobs. it would make president obama look bad. the republicans are not trying to do anything about jobs in congress. they want to reduce the taxes and stop the government.

then they say the government is spending too much money. guest: i have two thoughts on that. one is it is important to recognize that government spending and job creation are not the same thing. in policy, it is if we do not do a government program, we do not create jobs -- that is the inclination of some people. i would say that government action government created uncertainty can stand in the way of job creation. i do not entirely agree with this. the caller said some things. we are in a time of transition. the economy is growing but not as well as it should. we have had a lot of uncertainties in the last few months and weeks. we need a shift from stimulus to private sector to a recovery,

but it is a delicate shift. we will not necessarily withdraw all government spending. there has to be a phase-out, but it is important to begin that phase out. many programs have lost that temporary stimulus. it is time to have a private- sector driven economy -- recovery. host: haven't more jobs been created in the private sector then the public sector? guest: absolutely. they have been shedding jobs. that is an effect of a recession. as economic activity retreats and the unemployment rate goes up and stays up for an extended time from, government spending goes up. many as a balanced budget constraint, they face a constraint into making tough choices.

some were probably on the wrong side of it during the bush to administration. sometimes there is -- joseph interpreting errors bad dream. -- pharoh's bad dream. -- the stimulus bill that president obama signed into law at the beginning of his term, [inaudible] there is a certain amount and the total amount of stimulus bill had to be reduced. that was taken off. people are forgetting it was not speaker boehner back then, it was nancy pelosi in speaker

read. -- senator reid. it is an important issue. host: how much of the stimulus bill was tax cuts and why did they create jobs in your opinion? guest: about one-third of it was a tax cuts -- it could have been 40%. a lot of it went to households through 0 deductions. the payroll tax rate was reduced. for individuals and household getting a tax cut, they got a little bit at a time. for some people once a month or once a week, but probably did not have the same effect as here is a big check, you have a tax cut. many people might not have noticed it in their weekly

paychecks. host: our next call comes from a business owner in new york, new york. caller: my question is twofold. if the government keeps giving of government jobs, don't we eventually run out of real money since businesses producing them, production companies that manufacture something from scratch are the only ones that produce a real money that is passed along to buy services. if the government is a service and private sector is a business that produces real dollars from producing something from scratch, how are we replacing government jobs with more government jobs? how do we balance that and why do people keep asking the government keep providing more and more jobs? guest: this is part of the shift

i talked about before. we have had a policy approach that has focused on government driven demand. government spending. this is the fundamental question and debate in american society. what is the appropriate role and the society of the government? everyone should understand that the fundamental driver of growth is productivity and private sector growth. it emphasizes government job creation, and will crowd out private sector job creation. it does not have to be all the time, but over a long time, that is the case. the american people next year will decide what kind of approach to economic policy they want.

host: our next call also comes from new york and new york, republican line. caller: -- i am not an economist, but i think we needed a comprehensive approach to this job situation. -- we need to do a comprehensive approach to this job situation. i think we are allowing our companies to go overseas, create jobs and the situations and do things for other countries. i do not understand how the government is going to create anything, because they do not create businesses. i am confused about how the government is actually working at this point. one side believes in one thing

and one side believes in another. we never get to a point of a comprehensive situation that would create what the united states wants to do itself. -going to hang up and see what kind of response you have for me. guest: the role of the government, the wall of the private sector, i talked about that a second ago. the shift between the short term in the long term. we have a very active government. i am skeptical, but there is a need for fiscal stimulus. we prefer one that is one more effective and better compose. there are important roles for the government. right now is training. we have 6 million american workers that are long-term unemployed.

that is greater than six months. many people have been out of work for up to three years that would like to find a job. the longer they stay out of the work force, the more the job market moves away from that. most training is done by private sector. not all of it. the government is taking people not in a job or in a job that does not have opportunities for training and human capital development. the government will say, we want to train people for the private sector, but do not have public resources to do it. we have to decide what is the right role for the government. there are important roles for the government. host: over the weekend, the president talked about how to get americans back to work in

his weekly address. let's get a response from phil. >> the payroll tax, cut that put an average of $1,000 in and families' pockets, let extended. construction workers that have been jobless, let's put them back to work rebuilding america. let's cut red tape in the patent process so on japan u.s. can get good ideas to the market quickly. -- entrepreneurs can get good ideas to the market quickly. businesses need incredible skills and talents. these are all things we can do right now. guest: let me take some of those in turn. talking about reconnecting veterans into the workforce. that is a really worthwhile initiative.

as service members exit the military, getting training to move into the civilian work force. those are entirely laudable. he talked about finishing trade deals. that is frustrating to me and other people. the trade deals are finished. president obama just has to send them to the congress. he has political pressures -- and some small changes have been made to the trade deals, but they are basically unchanged on what president bush negotiated. the red tape, the president is at the top of the government. he needs to look below him, and

say, the epa, other agencies, your regulatory decisions e negative effects on the economy. and the longer you extend it, tax cuts, you are taking away from social security and medicare. it is not a good thing to do over a long period of time. we have to address the fiscal challenge. i can see doing more today, at the same time adjusting -- addressing the fiscal challenge. i do not see the president really serious about that. host: we have a tweet.

guest: that must refer to the trade deal with columbia. it is one of those talking points that is entirely wrong when you look at it. the trade deal with columbia will open colombia's economy to u.s. firms. they already have a preferential access to the u.s. markets through a trade agreement. they have access to our market. we are opening their markets to us. the irony is that other countries have access. canada. we would get better access to columbia. i would encourage the tweeter to check this out. the talking point is wrong. host: here is another tweet/

. guest: that has, again more recently. there are many people who took out mortgages over the last couple of years, who qualify but for various reasons do not qualify today as they did then. today, mortgage interest rates are 4%, but they do not qualify to refinance. the idea is that the government should refinance them. the problem is that, it is like we are writing a check to these particular individual home owners, the government, that we as taxpayers are writing a check.

if we did it, it is hard to rationalize it as writing checks to these particular home owners. it is not a very coherent, well thought out policy. it is not free. it is pure transfer from the taxpayers to these particular homeowners. your opponent -- your neighbor would get a check from the government, and you would not. that is difficult to -- to defend on the grounds of fairness. host: tickets look proposals from the rip -- take a look at proposals from republicans. next caller. caller: the loss of millions of jobs in the private sector over a matter of a few months is due to unregulated derivatives, not high taxes.

according to the bloomberg, the financial industry was built by trillions of dollars. as far as jobs, last year was the best year in 20 years of making profit for some people. they are moving their business offshore. they are setting up offices all over the world in cities in countries where health insurance is a government function and because of low wages. we see a mass move of businesses offshore. the biggest industry in this country is the financial industry. the republican perspective is

very skewed in my mind. it does not take in what has occurred and what is occurring. guest: let me take on a few of those points. what the caller said at the end is important for everyone to consider. there is no one right way to boost the economy and create jobs. it is important to listen to all points of view. when president obama makes a proposal, i do not say, ok, how can i trash that. -- i think the financial crisis revealed important failures in the financial sector and failure in regulation. it is tough to say we will solve this by having more regulation.

and the regulation next time will get it right. we assume a very good people in cover regulatory apparatus, really excellent people regulate national banks. -- on the bailout of banks of versus individuals, it is infuriating that we had to do what we did. putin taxpayer money into banks from small ones to large ones. the banks paid us and paid as a very well. the u.s. government made a return. it is not policy i liked to do, but there was a return. bailing out homeowners is

different. we write a check and do not get the money back. it should be done through the congress and not through executive action. moving jobs overseas is a really important issue. the solution is to look at competitors and see what the obstacles are two job creation. we need to find what will make businesses want to move to the u.s. look at individual states. 40% of the job growth in the last few years has been in the state of texas according to the dallas fed. there is probably a reason why the climate in texas has been pro-job creation. host: how much of that is attributed to the oil and gas

industry as opposed to things that were done specifically by the perry administration to create those jobs? guest: there is a substantial presence in oil and natural gas. prices have been high. there has not been a technological revolution in natural gas. it has a big impact on the state economy. the pro-business climate there has probably contributed as well. i suspect that now governor perry has jumped into the race, a lot of people are going to analyze that. prof. krugman has started on this. i am sure we will hear more of it.

host: we have another tweet. it says more jobs overseas means better and cheaper imported products. everybody wins. guest: we want high-quality products made in the u.s. and the availability of high-quality products made in other countries. we want the productivity growth that comes with the integrated global economy. americans see firms setting up overseas and shutting down in this country. i would not start denying the unease about the issue. we talk about regulation. tax policy is a big part of it.

the u.s. tax code is probably unfair and inefficient. it is certainly complicated. it is probably not good enough to boost u.s. growth. host: what effect did the compromise have on the ability to create jobs? guest: the debate on the debt ceiling had a negative effect on the economy and growth. i hope it will be short-term. americans looked at washington and said they did not know how to govern. the president really never put forward a budget. he put forward a budget in february that was not a serious budget and was voted down. two months later, he put out a budget framework. the congressional budget office

said they could not support it because there was not enough there. this has been going on for a long time. it is tough to govern when the party that controls 2/3 of the government does not go through the normal steps of governing. they do not put forward a budget and go through the normal steps of budgeting. host: we go back to phone calls for philip swagel, former assistant treasury secretary for economic policy in the second bush administration. lloyd, tell us your question or comment. caller: i am the best ceo of a company that does work in software development. we do some development in the u.s.

it is modest compared to bigger corporations. i wanted to see about putting in a proposal that would put in tax breaks for investing in research and development in the united states. they can measure r&d and break that up by u.s. and non-u.s.. they can apply that towards the tax credit. that would encourage corporations to rethink putting positions in the united states or abroad. i think it would help with job growth. i would rather have that than an across-the-board tax cut for corporations. guest: these are important areas. the u.s. is increasingly becoming a center for high technology manufacturing. it is great the caller is part

of that. there is a research and development tax credit. it has been part of the package of tax provisions that expire every year or two. president bush wanted to make it permanent. president obama wants to make it permanent as well. it has gotten wrapped up with other tax policy considerations. i cannot say i am optimistic we will make it permanent this year. hopefully 2013 will be a year in which the u.s. government looks at the tax code again and as a big scale tax reform to make the tax code more fair and pro- growth. making the credit permanent would be part of that. there are provisions of the tax code that might help in the short term. increased expensive for businesses large and small would

provide an incentive for investment. we're still going to be hearing about various stimulus proposals. that would be one that i think would make sense. host: the next call comes from gary in maryland on the line for democrats. go ahead. caller: i have a quick question. why do the republicans seem to favor the investment class over the working class in the paul ryan budget? several candidates have supported the idea of eliminating all income taxes and

others. it seems unfair that the investment class gets to live tax-free and the working class has to pay the federal budget and pay off the debt that was wrapped -- racked up during the boom times of wall street. guest: i think there are two questions. one is the burden of the taxes and who pays off the debt. i would encourage the caller to go to the cbo website and look at the tables of which income crosses -- classes sure the tax burden. i think he will find it is at odds with the gist of your question.

the second part about the tax rate is important. what is the fundamental driver of wages? that is productivity. low wages ultimately is a reflection of low productivity growth. we want to increase productivity to drive wage growth. one way to increase productivity is through investing. we're having firms boost investment to boost productivity. over time, that will boost workers' wages. one sure-fire way to reduce investment is to tax it. the taxes on capital income and corporate tax and so on, those are taxes on saving and investment.

as an individual, someone decides not to spend on something and to save the income. that savings turns into investment. the returns on that are dividends and capital gains. having an extra tax on dividends and capital gains is ultimately the same thing as a tax on savings. that means less savings, less investment, and lower productivity. over time, that means lower wages. having higher taxes on capital gains and dividends leads to lower productivity and wage growth. host: warren buffett writes the billionaires' should pay more taxes. guest: he is welcome to do that at any time. he can write a check. he is a great economic thinker.

that was purely a quip. there is going to be a re- examination of government spending and taxes. republicans have focused on spending. they are focused on entitlement spending. that is the focus of the paul ryan budget plan. i think everyone agrees we're not going to address the fiscal imbalance on the shoulders of people with low lifetime incomes. we're looking at people with high incomes and middle and upper incomes. that is where the burden of adjustment will be. we can either lower entitlement spending or raise taxes. it is a clear choice. why would we want a family to pay more taxes so that same family gets more benefits?

why not lower the benefits in the first place? the outcome is the same. why run that through the government where it would create problems? host: welcome to the "washington journal." caller: i have been in this country for 11 years. i have been a citizen for about seven years. i have been voting republican. i am sick and tired of what the republicans are doing. you cannot take your political beliefs over this country. this country should come first. what we're going through right now are a lot of fundamental, serious problems. republicans are pretending. they do not know. they want to defeat the president. that is their goal.

this is ridiculous. i am sick and tired of it. they need to think about how to create jobs in this country. this is the best country on earth. right now, people do not want to come to america anymore. people are going back home because of the destruction they have done to this country. guest: the caller has a point. one thing that is dismaying to all of us is the arguing in the government and why the two sides cannot come together to reach agreements. i would point the blame widely. i am disagreeing with the caller. i mentioned some of the difficulties of governing when the president does not undertake his fundamental obligation to put forth a budget and specific proposals. speaker boehner talked about how to proceed with the white house was like dealing with

jello in that there was nothing to grab onto. it would be helpful to have specific proposals on paper that cover the short term and long term. here is how the administration will adjust the fiscal challenge over time. the president's proposal is to essentially propose a commission to reduce medicare spending. everyone understands the president had a commission already. he pretty much ignored it. paul ryan chose not to ignore it. to say he will deal with medicare through another commission is to say that we all get the joke. i think it would be helpful to have more specific proposals short term and long term.

host: go ahead. caller: i have always been a believer that the u.s. tax code for american workers should be a flat tax across the board. i always felt a flat tax would give american workers a clear and up from picture of what their income is going to be. i always felt that if you got rid of the loopholes and have the flat tax, you would probably receive more revenue instead of having hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent to curb some of the taxes they pay. i have always felt the blue- collar workers in the middle class workers are the driving force that has always kept our

industry and economy going. host: we will leave it there. we're running out of time. guest: the flatter and simpler the talks, the better it is for the economy. the flatter and simpler the tax, the better it is for our economy. it is not an accident. the complications and the polls are there for a reason. someone put them in there because they help someone. to go to a flatter rate, there are many people who benefit from each of the proposals in the tax code. that is the kind of discussion we have. someone who hesitates to give those up, i would say to them that the benefits of a simpler tax code would outweigh their

particular loss. host: philip swagel is currently a visiting scholar at the american enterprise institute. we are going to take a break. when we come back, we will begin our series looking inside the fbi. we begin the series with ronald kessler, author of "the secrets of the fbi. " we will be focusing on the first chapter of the book about the agents who conduct secret, authorized burglaries. this is the kickoff of the week- long series looking inside the fbi. first, we have another news update from c-span radio. >> house speaker john boehner's office in ohio was the site of abandoned briefcases yesterday. the police and a bomb squad detonated the suspicious packages. they were filled with paper.

his cincinnati office has been the scene of several protests in recent weeks. bloomberg news reports that manufacturing in the new york region contracted for the third straight month in august as orders and inventories dropped. the federal reserve bank of new -rk's general index fell to 7.7. the office of the u.n. high commissioner for human rights has released a report calling for an investigation into alleged war crimes in sudan. the report cites witnesses who claim to have seen mass graves dug by the sudanese army for executed prisoners. an update on last week's violence in the united kingdom. the prime minister says the riots were not provoked by

racial tensions, party, and the austerity program. instead, he is blaming a lack of personal responsibility. he told an audience today that british society has become one that insights laziness and excuses' bad behavior. he said he will outline new policies by october aimed at reversing the "slow motion moral collapse" that he blames for fostering the disorder. estimatesh governogovernment several tons of oil may have leaked into the north sea. the leak began next week. the government says it is small compared to the bp spill last year. it says in the context of the u.k. continental shelf, this bill is substantial. it also says it does not expect the oil to reach shore and will disburse naturally. shell has declined to comment on the volume of the spill.

those are some of the latest headlines on c-span radio. >> what more video of the candidates. see what reporters are saying and track contributions if the c-span website for campaign 2012. you can see candidate biographies and the latest polling data. it is all at c- span.org/campaign2012. host: today we are kicking off a week-long series looking at the fbi. tomorrow, we will look at counter-terrorism. on wednesday, key programs on the fbi -- of the fbi. today we begin the series with ronald kessler, author of the new book "the secrets of the

fbi." the first chapter is about the tactical operations unit. what is that? guest: it is a euphemism for bugging and wire-tapping. about 20% of the book is devoted to this. i could not believe the fbi would give me this. in my first interview on the subject with the person in charge, and wondered if he the one of us would be arrested -- i wondered if either one of us would be arrested. someone questioned whether the third-ranking fbi agents should be giving me this. i am still amazed. when someone asks me how i get them to talk, i usually say that

i would water board them and that worked well. host: has this unit been around for a long time? guest: in terms of the sophistication and size and this particular name, it has been in recent years. they break into homes, offices, and even indices -- embassies to plant bugging devices without getting caught and shot as burglars. in an embassy, they could be thought of as burglars. they do go in with weapons drawn. no one has been shot so far. there have been a lot of close calls. to make sure they do not get shot, they spend weeks beforehand casing of the target

with surveillance. on the night of the break-in, they will have agents who watch anyone who might go back to the premises at their homes. if they start to go back, they will divert them. they may just as police officers. they may open a fire hydrant. they may stage a phony traffic accident. if there is a dog on the premises, they will take a photograph of the dog before hand. they will show it to a veterinarian on contract. he will prescribe the right amount of tranquilizer that is shot into the dog with a tranquilizer gun. they wait, before they leave to keep from arousing suspicion. -- they wake up the dog before they leave to keep from arousing suspicion. they will create phony fronts to

houses that they used to shield them as they are picking locks. they will take a picture of the front of the house and blow it up. they also create phony bushes with the same idea. shents hide behind tehe bu and pick the lock from behind the bush. there are seven teams with about 10 agents on each team. they go around the country doing this. there are about 400 operations or break-ins a year. they are thoroughly covert. they operate under cover so that no one would even know their name.

if there stopped by the police, they would have a phony name that is totally backstopped by social security and other i.d. they have ups uniforms. they may introduce static on the phone line. he calls the telephone company. they say they will be right over. they send over agents in a telephone truck. they replace or fix the phone and put a bug in it. host: you refer to this as legalized burglary. guest: that is the term the person in charge used for court- sanctioned burglars. it is a half-joking reference because it is authorized by

court order. at the same time, their job is to be burglars. they have incredible stratagems to cover up what they're doing. host: do we know how much they get of the fbi budget? guest: it is at least $40 million. an additional sum comes from the national security budget. i do not know the total. there are about 1000 please assign to the total operation called "operational technology." and includes the wiretapping. i went to the facility that does irginia.quantico, va no reporter had ever been there before. there is a picture of in my book, "the secrets of the fbi." that is all dedicated to tacops

and making bugging devices. they deploy the agents from a separate place offsite. that means it is totally secret. there's no way to identify it as fbi. to the outside world, it looks like an industrial complex. host: you said that they will break into indices -- embassies. guest: if they were caught as burglars, they would be shot. there have been close calls. in one case in new york, agents were planting bugs in a mafia apartment. one of them was about to do a big hit job. they thought they knew where he was. they did not. they heard his key in the lock.

they jumped into the bathroom. one of the agents was in the shower with his gun drawn. the other agent turned on the water in the sink and took off his shirt and pretended he belonged there. this hit man fell for it. when he left, he told them not to forget to shut the door behind them. host: the first phone call is from virginia. go ahead. fbi havedoes the information about the military? i have heard people talk about maybe some of the big military brass with republican views are causing some of the incidents

over there. jimmy carter said the recovery team over there to get the marines. they had a big helicopter crashed and made him look bad. more recently, there were the 31 people who got killed in the helicopter crash. what do you think about that? guest: it sounds like you have a conspiratorial frame of mind that the fbi knows everything or causes problems and crashes. the fbi did become heavily involved in the effort to kill osama bin laden. they trained the navy seals on how to pack up evidence. over 100 items were seized better now in the custody of the government. they were never able to match his fingerprints. they thought they had his

fingerprints on papers seized earlier. it turned out they did not match the fingerprints on the body. let's not create another conspiracy theory. they did make a match using dna and facial recognition software. in the end, they were never able to match his fingerprints. host: someone wants to know about the sources and whether they were anonymous. guest: most of the book is based on on the record interviews. they were done with current or former agents who had inside knowledge of what they're talking about. in one case, they brought out things that have never been brought out before.

just after the death of marilyn monroe, a teletype came in from the agent in charge in los angeles saying that just before his death, he let his personal car to bobby kennedy to go see her. i confirmed with his children on the record that he would lend his personal car to bobby kennedy to go see marilyn monroe. i suspect he broke up with her before the death. that is just one of the secrets of the fbi. host: clearwater, fla., you are up next. caller: why would you reveal this confidential information to alert the enemy? why should the enemy and those who do evil things be aware of this? guest: some fbi agents did raise their eyebrows because this has been so secret over the years. nobody has been given access to

this. the executive assistant director of the fbi knows a great deal about what could or could not be revealed. he decided to do this. he consulted with other top people at the fbi. he ultimately got the approval of the fbi director to give me this. if the fbi does not know what should or should not be secret, we are in big trouble. they certainly did not give me everything. it is four chapters of the book. it is so unbelievable. you would not want to put it in a movie because no one would believe it. there are some techniques that are still secret. they gave me a lot of techniques on how they pick locks and if the alarm systems. they send the agents to elevator school to learn how to take

control of the elevators. if they're going to bug an office building, they will take control of the elevators. they will come out the next morning wearing business suits so no one is the wiser. host: in 2009, there were more than 800 agents that graduated. they do 20 weeks of training. they do realize cases at quantico. they must shoot 80% or better. they have 90 hours of training on tactics, operations, undercover intelligence, etc. how does the training for tacops agents differ?

guest: the whole idea of the fbi academy training for new agents is to give them a general idea. when they get into specialties, then they get much more training. in the case of tactical operations, they want agents who are quick on their feet and can come up with a cover story is a week. about 20% are females. they may have a male and female agent walking hand in hand. tending their boyfriend and girlfriend. -- they may have a male and female agent walking hand-in- hand pretending they are boyfriend and girlfriend. these agents have to be especially willing to take risks. it is unbelievable. you could be in an apartment or embassy and get shot. host: if they were caught or

shot, with the fbi -- with the fbi -- would the fbi denied the operation was happening? guest: no, it would be legal because it was authorized by court order. host: how do they recruit for tacops? guest: current agents will sound out who might be good. they travel all over the country. they put bugs in rylhode island for the mafia. they bugged a mafia induction.

they also put bugs into the john gotti social club that helped to lead to his arrest. at the engineering research facility and offsite, they will make a vase or lamp with a bug on it. they may send an agent posing as an exterminator to take a picture of a vase in the house. they make a replica of that and put a bug in it. then they put it back in the house. i was shown a bug that was the size of a postage stamp. it could record for 21 hours or

transmit remotely in stereo. that is one of their little techniques. they could put it in a book, a battery for a cell phone. i was allowed to interview current agents at the engineering research facility. my battery ran out in my reporter. they brought me a new battery and said it had a bug in it. host: victoria is calling from new york. caller: this is fascinating. do they use this to discredit political candidates? this is kind of scary. guest: under the reign of j. edgar hoover who created the fbi

and made it into the world's most admired agency, there were massive abuses. the fbi engaged in political surveillance often at the direction of presidents. they were wiretapping. there were illegal break-ins. you would develop what mail files on members of congress and the president. i document that. a lot of formal agents -- former agents will say it is a myth. it is not a myth. the former head of the washington field office of the fbi says that is exactly what they did. we need to be vigilant about the fbi and government. no actual abuses been found since the hoover days.

there has been sloppiness and mistakes. i go into some of those in the book, but no actual abuse. host: we're talking to ron kessler about the tactical operations unit. our focus this week is looking inside the fbi. mr. kessler said the budget might be around $40 million. we do not know exactly what the budget is for this unit. the fbi budget request overall for the agency for 2012 was about $8.1 billion. in fy 2011, the budget is broken down among the different departments.

we did find for the 2012 request line items for electronic surveillance. it was about $4.5 million for 13 new positions. you can see the current services with 45 positions. that includes five agents at a cost of about $40 million. we go next to bloomfield, conn.. caller: my question is why are they releasing this? he only wants to sell a book. why would he detail operations

so that the enemy would know what the fbi is doing question of these are people working to defend your country. host: what do you think the motivation was for making this transparent? guest: i think they trust me to tell a straight story. the head of all this said he thinks people should know how their money is being spent. there is an additional component from the national security budget that is not revealed in the budget figures. there are a lot of funny stories. in philadelphia, they have to bug a mafia front that was an electronics store. they did not want to go in the back because it could be booby trapped.

they have to go in the front. the tacops agents rode a city bus. they drove in front of the establishment. they pretended the bus had broken down. they pick the lock. nobody from the bar across the street could see them. the bus went around a corner while they were putting the bugs in. the bus came back. there were two patrons at the bus stop there were furious because the bus did not stop for them. they finally got on the bus. the agents did not realize they were not with them. the agents started taking off their weapons and equipment. the agent who was driving had

just learned how. the passengers were wanting off. they really started ringing. the agent who was driving realized what was going on. he let them off. they went running down the street and no one ever heard from them again. host: how long do these missions take from conception to execution? at what point does the test operations unit get involved in an operation? guest: it gets involved in very high-profile cases, usually when there is enough reason to believe there is criminal activity or a terrorist plot. it could be three or four weeks where they do the surveillance. they even try to figure out the sleeping patterns of the occupants and when they go into deep sleep mode.

they try to come up with any eventuality that might interfere with the operation. host: someone wants to know how you double check your information. how did you know what they were telling you was correct? guest: when a former director tells you how it is done and shows you a bug engine interview the people in charge, i do not think there is a lot of reason to doubt the story. i present a very detailed account. it is all on the record. i was not able to use one name because that person was still under cover. i explained that in the book. for other secrets, and also get cooperation -- i would also get corroboration.

i did that with the marilyn monroe story. in the case of vince foster, i had on the record interviews with the fbi agents who did the investigation. the fbi determined about a week before his death, he was depressed. hillary clinton had a big meeting in the white house with foster and other aides about her health care legislation. she disagreed violently with an objection he raised about the legislation. in front of all these white house aides, she totally humiliated him in this meeting and said he was a small town hick in this meeting

and said he was a small town hick lawyer. [no audio] a week later he committed suicide. they found this is what triggered the suicide. [no audio]

caller: about al qaeda creating [unintelligible] would this be a problem in the united states for them knowing about our mechanisms that we have put in place? guest: the other side knows that we do this. they do the same thing to us in the case of the russians. that is not a big secret. the judgment of the people who do this was that this was something that could be revealed. i have to tell you i am still shocked that i was given this material.

host: republican ellen from michigan. caller: i have a comment and a question. my comment is that with all the new technology that has increased, every day there's something new. i believe it was last week the air force or nasa let it be known about the fastest airplane that could travel like 13,000 miles an hour. you come out with this book revealing fbi secrets. you are letting known the old techniques. there are so many new techniques. we have no way of knowing how advanced the techniques are. guest: there are very sophisticated techniques used that were not given to me. a lot of them are very arcane, electronic devices.

in terms of the basic story is and how they approach it in some of the actual incidents that have occurred, this is something that was thought to be something that could be in the book. the fbi went into a mafia home in las vegas. they thought there was only a dog there. when they open the door, a cat ran out. they had to get the cat. if the cat disappeared, the people would know the fbi had possibly been there. the agents had night vision goggles and were on walkie- talkies describing this cat. about an hour later, an agent radioed that the habitat in custody. they brought it back. it started hissing at the dog

the dog started chasing the cat. they thought that was strange. the next morning, they were listening to the bugs they had planted. a lot of times to get rid of people, the fbi will say they got a free trip or dinner. they will go out for that reason. these people came back and found it was the wrong track -- cat. luckily, these people started rationalizing to themselves that may be the wrong cat came in through the trapdoor. was another case in new york where the fbi was putting bugs in a mafia social club. there was a difficult padlock. they had to bang on it in the middle of the night. a lot of times they will use a jackhammer in the neighborhood to cover up the sounds. in this case, there was a mafia

apartment right next door. mafia people were playing cards. they heard this noise. they knew they had been bugged by the fbi. they thought it could not be the fbi because they would never make noise like that. host: how much to the costly research and develop new ways of doing operations? -- how much do they constantly research and develop new ways of doing operations? guest: there are some locks that are really hard to defeat. it could be used by an embassy or sophisticated terrorist. they also farmed out projects to national laboratories to build bugs and ways to defeat things. they do have techniques. before they go into a location,

they will have a device that can see under doors what might be there. they have other devices to detect radiological and biological elements that could be harmful. in some cases, they want to stop a terrorist attack using those elements. they also consult with the cia. they would say they are equal. about twice a week, the executive assistant director meets with his cia counterparts. they do the same things overseas. the plant bugs, steal codes, and generally have a good time. they seem to trust each other. host: the tactical operations unit is our topic this morning as part of our week-long series looking inside the fbi. we go to a democrat in florida. caller: i am calling about some

of the information we are being given. as i grew up, our fears about russia were that there were the secret police who could take you away in the middle of the night or enter your home at any time. i do believe we do not any longer require court order that -- we do not any longer require a court order. the fbi or cia can bypass that. maybe within 48 hours they are required to get an order. i would like information on the case where the fbi planted explosives and an toironmentalist's trunk frame them to be charged as a terrorist. guest: with the wild conspiracy theories, ask yourself if you

think the fbi could pull off killing people. they have no reason to do that. they could do that and it would still be a secret. it would not give out. the 72 hour limit you mentioned is for an emergency intercept. let's say osama bin laden was calling someone in new york to detonate a device. nsa picked that up. do they need a court order to listen to that when the conversation has already taken place? by the time you get a court order, the conversation is over. in some cases, you need emergency authorization. with all of these things that have occurred, no abuse has been found. if you do not let the fbi do

wiretaps, why do you let them have weapons? at some point you have to trust law enforcement. if they do wrong, prosecute. have oversight, which we have. both the extreme left and right have these conspiracy theories and the idea that the government is watching everything we do as if they have nothing better to do than listen to phone conversations for no reason. the reason we have not been attacked cents 9/11 is because the fbi and cia -- the reason we have not been attacked after 9/11 is because of the fbi and cia. every few months, the fbi has arrests of terrorists. that is the bottom line. that is why we have not had an attack. that is why we have been safe. host: ron kessler is our guest.

"the secrets of the fbi" is his new book. let's go to david, a republican, in st. louis, missouri. caller: earlier you said that the fbi could come into somebody's house undercover. if they are shot and killed, the person who killed them would be liable because they had a court order. obviously the fbi will not announce themselves of who they really are. how would somebody really know who they are? they might be a real burglar. if they are shot and killed, how is that person down libeable? guest: presumably the body would

be found in someone with no this happened. there was a case in cincinnati where an agent did have to kill an individual who saw them putting a tracking device under his car in the middle of the night. he came out with a gun. he would not put it down when they told him they were fbi and to drop it. it sends chills down the spines of tacops agents because that is the last thing they ever want to happen. in one case, they went into a home and the alarm system was not on. they wondered if someone was there. they thought maybe they missed it with surveillance. they thought someone might be on the premises. they have their weapons drawn. they heard "hello."

they were about to target someone with their weapons. it turned out it was a parrot. caller: i want to ask about one of the great successes of the fbi with regard to the world trade center bombing. it was revealed in the press that the fbi set the whole operation of. they trained the driver. they built the bomb. they set the whole operation of. host: that is david's opinion. we go next to warren in ohio. caller: it is inconceivable to sell a book or a peer and expose all the things the fbi has done. to say the fbi can do all of these miraculous and mysterious things in foreign countries at night, and then get the answer that if the fbi did this in the united states that it would not be revealed. c-span should really look at

this kind of exposure in this climate right now. it is not helping us whatsoever to expose it. the other day, they showed what the navy seals did. they showed what kind of equipment they have, how many are in the unit. they showed their wives and where they live. if i were the bad guy, all i have to do is watch these types of people promoting these types of books and i would be able to do damage to america. some things should be secret and some things should be exposed. guest: i agree with you. i am sensitive to that. i did consult with fbi people about what details should or should not be in the book. i never would have revealed the intercepts that "the new york times" revealed. that did tip off the enemy. that did tip off the enemy.