and the wto operates multi lateral. it involves every country in the world. every decade or so, they have the negotiation rounds. if the negotiation rounds succeed, you have low tariffs all over, across the line. the when you look at the 1990's, you look at the map of the world, many free trade agreement's going on simultaneously in asia, europe. the idea comes from many places, but when each of these regional blocs expand, they start touching each other, basically, and with different formulas, and that creates tension.

the sense that nafta is a different trade deal that south america and the european union. one of these blocks begin to talk to each other -- when these blocs began to talk to each other, the differences show. but overall, countries benefit from free trade. american multinational organizations operating in brazil, the fortune 500, 80% operate in brazil and they profit in brazil. host: that is it for our times. thank you for being here to give us a snapshot of brazil. our effort over the past six segments is to give you a quick look at complex economies, three economies around the the globe that have been experiencing stronger growth than the united states and what some of the sources of that are. thanks for being with us. time for the final hour of "washington journal." all this week on our final hour

we have been looking at aspects of the fbi. we will conclude that today by taking you in washington to one the most visited sites in washington, d.c., the museum of crime and punishment. this will be the final day of our series looking at the fbi. host: the national crime and punishment museum holds five unique the galleries looking at criminal intent, profiles, serial killers, victims, crime prevention and more. today we are inside the crime solving gallery, which you can learn all about forensic technology, cause of death, fingerprinting, a ballistics and many more items. we are joined by gregg mccrary, former fbi profiler. that is our topic this morning as we wrap up this week's series looking at the fbi. what is profiling? guest: good morning, and thanks for having me in. the narrow definition of profiling is the description of

the characteristics and traits of the unknown offender. the type of profiling pioneered by the fbi is the retrospective look at crime. in other words, crime has occurred. we are now examining the crime, the crime scene, all of the todence related to theat draw logical inferences about who might have committed this crime. host: the difference between prospective profiling in retrospective profiling. >> those are often confused. perspective profiling is trying to -- prospective a profiling is trying to identify common characteristics to determine who might commit a particular crime, who might be a terrorist or a drug courier. that is far more problematic, because you are going to get a lot of false positives, people

who "fit the profile" who really are not a terrorist or card career -- host: what type of agencies are doing that work? guest: certainly tsa, homeland security, and the bureau is looking at this to see what logically we can see about that. obviously, the idea is to prevent this before -- a lot of agencies are taking that on. host: retrospective profiling? guest: retrospective profiling is after the crime has occurred. that is the difference. rather that figuring out who was going to commit a crime, we look at who committed this crime or series of crimes. there is a methodology to this. it is a scientific approach, where we look at base rates, up homology, where we it study the victim, often very important, and too often given short shrift in investigations.

at the risk of oversimplifying, if you can think of it as what plus why = who? what happened, and the etymology is -- victimology is why gwe look at life styles and variables and put them on a risk to continuum from a low to high. we can understand why victims may have been elevated risks for being victims of violence, that focuses in on who. that basically is the idea that. host: at what point in the investigation does the profiler come in? guest: they can come in at any phase during the investigation. the first phase is to determine whether or not the crime has been committed. sometimes that is easy, a no- brainer. other times is much more difficult. years ago you might recall twa

flight 800 took off from kennedy and blow up. it took years of investigation by the bureau and agencies determined it was an accident, it wasn't a crime. sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is not. we have someone that died, maybe under suspicious circumstances. is it natural causes, accident, suicide, homicide? we can get involved in the very early stages, and along the line, say, after the crime has been committed and we know is a crime, we're looking for who did it. sometimes it is to figure out what crime hit many times the crime you think you are investigating is not what occurred. susan smith in south carolina if you use ago reported her two kids had been carjacked, and you probably recall that she in fact killed her children. host: and so does the fbi

profiler stop at just the profile of the offender? do you come up with a strategy to go after the possible offender? guest: probably the most important things we do, the investigative strategy and/or interview interrogations strategy. profiling is the sexier aspect, the glitzy thing that gets everyone's attention to it if i go out and tell an investigator that we are looking for a white guy in his 30's, whatever, the proper response is well, that is interesting, but how do i catch the guy? that is the right question to ask. investigative strategy becomes very important in cases where they are trying to solve it. if you're up suspects interviewed in interrogation strategy, it also becomes important, because we're trying to eliminate suspects, identify suspects. we also get involved on the road with prosecution strategy and sometimes expert witness testimony. host: the profiler then comes up

with this strategy. how to you make a profile? we are in the crime solving part of the gallery. how does forensics help you? ballistics? toxicology? etc? forensics are foundational. we have to depend on that. we are allowed to come back with results, the autopsy, for example, if it is homicide. those things become quickly important. how is the victim -- if we are talking, hypothetically, a homicide, how is the victim killed? were they stabbed, shot? how many times? so forth. obviously, any other evidence -- fingerprint evidence, dna. certainly blood or semen or anything that is important to us. that is foundational for us, to understand what happened.

we can move forward from there. host: gregg mccrary is our guest, worked at the bureau from 1969 to 1995. still involved in forensic science and profiling. we are at the national museum of crime and punishment as we wrap up this week pause to look at the fbi. we showed all of you when we first started this the inside of the crimes of the gallery. i'm just curious, what is the forensic lab at quantico look like compared to where we are today? guest: certainly is not open to the public. [laughter] there are different things being done at the lab did the dna unit is its own unit. to avoid contamination and so forth, folks are not just going to stroll in and out of that. each section would have its own equipment, its own examiner's. they have their own scientific background, their own a degree of expertise. it would be sorted out that way.

given the case, they may tap into any one of those areas of expertise. host: how many agents are profilers? guest: just a few. profiling -- there are, like, three units in behaviorial analysis that are operational. those are the folks that do the work and offer operational support. altogether, with agents and support personnel, there is about 40 people involved in that totally. out of 14,000, that is not very many. when i first got involved in the mid-1980's, there were 12 of us at any one time in the operational wing. it has grown because demand has grown. host: that is our topic this morning, profiling and forensics. richard, independent in georgia. caller: yes, good morning. on profiling, i am a little confused with homeland security.

recently, they put a message out that is maybe a white male, evangelical, pro-life, may be a member of the nra, pro-second amendment. my idea of profiling is someone who belongs to a radical group or someone who goes around it to a university or school preaching revolution by violence, or someone who belongs to a radical organization, like the kkk. host: gregg mccrary. guest: thanks for that question, richard. what you're talking about is prospective profiling, someone who might commit a crime afterwards. the plans he made are good, because -- the points he made a

good, because it points out how we can get false positives. what department of homeland security is concerned about is the lone wolf offender, someone who is out there -- we just had that in norway. i was in norway last week, not related to that mass murder, but on another case there, but whe e based on some political beliefs and so forth. those are the things we are concerned about, as well as organized tourists like al qaeda and so forth. we are also concerned about the lone wolf, a little more difficult to identify because they don't talk to anybody, they don't communicate. they develop these ideas and carry them out themselves. host: nikk is a democrat -- nicky is a democrat and a convicted. -- democrat in connecticut. caller: hi, gregg. does the fbi sometimes get their information wrong, with a

wrongfully accuse someone of something? i will bring the case up, i don't know if you have anything to do with it or anything. [unintelligible] the that's not familiar? guest: does not sound familiar, but go ahead. caller: he was in chicago, and basically they said he had something to do with the brothers -- they did a movie called "casino" that had the same idea. his wife convicted him. he swore he did not do it, but basically, was doing 200 years, and john gotti followed with him later. there are not connected, i don't think -- host: are right -- caller: i would like to vindicate him, because they went after hand, and maybe he got -- maybe he was responsible for, like, tax evasion and those things that those guys do, but

they got him for killing a mother, and one of the brothers is on trial -- killing a brother, and one of the brothers is on trial -- host: we will take your point about wrongful information. guest: certainly we can get wrongful information. i was not on the case so i do not want to comment on that . but the bureau of arrested an attorney in oregon, i believe, because ms. identification of a fingerprint. he was released. certainly, we are human beings and we try as best we can to get it right. human beings will make mistakes along the way. the important thing is to correct those errors. host: 1 upper father goes to testify, how much weight do you -- have when a profiler goes to testify, and how much weight you have with your testimony? guest: profiling testimony per

se is not allowed. it is too prejudicial. we do not get up and say, here is a profile of let serial killer, a child molester. that is not allowed, nor should it be allowed. we testify as to crime scene analysis. we educate the jury about things they might not be familiar with, staging and those sorts of things. host: to stay off -- is there a formula as to how they do the job, steps that they go through? guest: there is a methodology. we start with a victimology -- who or what is the victim, why is that target being targeted for some reason? like i say, we can understand that, then we can get a focus on where we go to find the offender. it is all very case-specific. it depends on the individual facts and things we have at each particular case. host: paul is an independent in

georgia. paul, are you there? caller: who? host: in georgia. what is your question or comment? caller: i held -- yes, i am here. host: and we are listening to you, go ahead. caller: my question to mr. gregg, how are you doing today? guest: doing well, thank you. caller: i remove my shoes on the airport, my baggage is checked. how come all of these drugs, to this country? guest: how, drugs, into the country is that the question? -- how come drugs come into the country? is that the question? certainly we are trying to enforce the laws and keep those things out of here it we can see the problem when it goes and control in mexico. the extraordinary violence

with a narcoterrorism. we're not perfect and crimes are committed every day, but we are doing our best to prevent those things and solve the ones that we can prevent. host: how does the fbi choose a special agent to be profiler? there is not many of their special qualifications, even more criteria needed? guest: typically draw from the pool of agents. we want at least 10 years or more of investigative experience. i was in the field 15 years before i got involved. we want seasoned investigators. people ideally with advanced degrees, behavioral sciences or social sciences, or some science related -- host: psychology you are referring to? psychiatry? guest: absolutely did any of those behavioral sciences would be a good academic background. the important thing is to have a skilled investigators who knows how to apply these things to

investigations, because it is ultimately the investigative techniques or tools that is used to help solve crimes. host: how to be other agents and whitby road you profilers? -- how did the other agents in the beirut and you profilers? -- in the bureau view profilers? guest: i had a guy bring it is dismembered corpse, and it was actually a grizzly bear attack. we get some harassment, but it is respected. host: timmy, democrat in west virginia. are you with us? you are on the air, sir. caller: my question relates to the prior caller. i wonder if they are doing and he refers profiling of law enforcement agencies -- doing reverse profiling of law- enforcement agencies.

i had been watching tv quite often, i notice they and getting a lot of drug money -- they have been getting a lot of drug money. vice versa. in other states. but they are not seizing drugs -- host: ok, we will leave it there. we got two phone calls about drug crimes, versus terrorists, murders, serial killers. how does a poor father go about distinguishing between all of those three -- how does a profiler go about distinguishing between all of those three? guest: that combine these things. if we have a dead victim, and the person is a drug dealer, where does that dieguide the investigation? clearly to drug dealing, and retribution and some sort of for

market dominance, some of drug dealer killing another drug dealer to eliminate competition. it works the same in all of these areas. victimology, all of these things. host: we are in the national crime and punishment museum. you see ballistics and fingerprinting, and etc. how does ballistics help, for example? guest: if it is enough, we can only get back to a specific weapon, or we -- can at least -- we can link it back to a specific whether or at least narrow it down to the type of weapon we looking for. whether it is the blood around, the shell casing -- the bullet around, the shell casing. when the bullet is fired, there are groups inside the barrel.

every what is unique. pon is unique. they can be compared to give us general characteristics, or if it is detailed enough, we can get to a specific web. host: what about fingerprinting? guest: same thing. depending on the quality of the prince, they can be helpful. new techniques are being developed all the time in. it has been a around for awhile, but the technique of using super glue is technique that has not been about years ago, but it has been around for years. it can be effective. host: and a fingerprint database in west virginia is one of the largest in the world and holds the most fingerprints. guest: what we're doing is computerized testing. it would have taken hours or

years, maybe, it to go card by card by card. depends on the individual examiner to make the call, but they -- that is very good. it was helpful in the d.c. sniper case years ago, where we had a fingerprint in case they were bragging about in montgomery, alabama. sent in with the dna -- the same thing with the dna bit technology is very, very effective. host: how often do you hear from state and local law enforcement saying, hey, i need help, a profile on this case? guest: keep in mind, murder is -- typically murder, even a

serial murderer, is a local or state violation. we don't come in and take over case. we don't take over a serial murder case or investigation. we are there to support the authorities who have the primary jurisdiction, there to work behind the scenes and provide any expertise we have to the investigators to hopefully move forward and solve the case. host: what is a new technology or area of our forensic science that is groundbreaking for the fbi, for profilers in the fbi? guest: stuff we talked about continues to grow. with dna, this stuff came on the scene in the 1980's and we needed a big splotch of blood or semen before they could do any sort of analysis. now it is microscopic or sub- microscopic. ng things, you cannot even see it but it is a

their bread is refining the techniques and being more discriminating in our ability to find these things. host: we are showing our viewers toxicology. what does that mean, and how does that help? guest: is used in an autopsy. i took the case last year. a woman died of unexplained causes in cleveland, ohio. she got sick. when the investigation developed, nothing was determined to be the cause of death. there is the normal toxicology screen that was run and nothing came up. information developed that she may have been poisoned by potassium cyanide. we did a cycle -- we did it talks logical testing and we found out she had nine times the lethal amount of cyanide in her system. she had been poisoned. that led to her husband as the suspect. is a long story, but he is serving eight long prison sentence for murdering his wife. toxicology was key in the murder

and manner of death. host: all this week on "washington journal," looking inside the fbi. our guest, gregg mccrary. alex is an independent in new york. caller: good morning, gregg. two quick questions and then i will hang up and listen to the answer. i wonder if you could comment on the fbi 's citizens' academy, about that program. the second one is, what do retired profilers do as far as where they move on? thank you for being on, i will listen to the answers. guest: thank you, alex. two good questions did the fbi citizens' academy exists in every liaison field office. we worked for citizens, we represent their interests in the

crimes, and we want them to get to know us. i would encourage anyone interested to call your local field office and inquire about that. we give tours of the bureau and we want to demystify as much of this as we can to help people understand better what we do so they can help us. law enforcement, at the end of the day -- we are only as good as the citizens want us to be. we depend on them to provide information and report crimes. it is important that we have a good relationship. host: how small the detail is too small? guest: no detail is too small. that could be the one you are looking for, absolutely. you have to evaluate each piece of evidence as it comes in. things that may not seem important first become a very important later as the investigation terms. -- turns. it is a revolving sort of relationship, symbiotic

relationship, as investigation goes on. host: does the witness also get guest:? -- does the witness also get a profile? guest: not usually. we talk about doing crime scenes and francine analysis. we have to think of the mind at a crime scene. our crime scene as a location that holds at least potential evidence of a crime. a victim's-certainly has evidence, as -- victim's mind certainly has evidence. how you surge that crime scene? how do you do the cognitive crime searching. same time, we want to be careful not to contaminate a crime scene with that interviewing or interrogation strategy. host: queens, new york. democratic caller. caller: you started when a j. edgar hoover was in charge of the fbi. i am wondering about the changes

after his death affected your work. guest: very dramatic changes. i came in 1969 under hoover -- old school, if you will -- where this idea of profiling did not even exist. host: did that change under hoover? guest: not really. he died in early 1970's, 1972, if i recall. but to be fair, to be honest, up profiling has been in existence ever since there was crime in an informal way because investigators show up and say, gee, who would do this? what we are trying to do is formalize this program, make a scientific, do research, and see how tight and discriminating a program which can develop. host: neil in fort lauderdale. caller: good morning, agent mccrary.

i find what you do to be not only fascinating but absolutely essential to our well-being. your many years of experience, it begs the question -- when evidence is grossly lacking or sparse at best, how many times have you relied upon at a visceral, intuitive, gut feeling that lead you down the path to success? guest: well, this certainly is an issue that comes up. a lot of it depends on experience. when you look at a crime scene and you know something is wrong. how do you know is wrong? you have looked at thousands of crimes scenes. this one is staged. the perpetrator does it to avoid detection. host: the person is organized. guest: we put them on a

continuum from organized to disorganize. organized would be thoughtful, intellectual, trying to avoid apprehension, more evidence- conscious. the disorganized offender reacts start up spontaneously. those crime scenes look more frenzied, and have a chaotic sense to them. i guess the answer to the question is, to agree, that does play a role after you have looked at thousands of times scenes and you look at one and you know this is not right, something is wrong with this scene. you begin to drill down, and at the end of the date, hopefully, we find evidence we need. host: which type of criminal, it is organized or unorganized, is more of a threat, causes more concerned? guest: organize the offenders are better at avoiding apprehension so they can have a lot of corporate disorgani -- have a longer career. disorganized offenders, we can catch them more quickly.

host: what are some examples of an organized criminal, one that would stick out in people's minds in history? guest: ted bundy is somebody everybody has some familiarization with. he killed for a number of years and had numerous victims. he was very good overtime at avoiding detection and apprehension, actually escaping from prison at different points and so forth. that is the sort of offender who was more highly organized, more thoughtful, more devious, more creative, more intellectual, can pose more of a challenge. host: we are live this morning from the national museum of common punishment. eric is a republican in illinois. caller: yes, hello. i was calling to ask mr.

mccrary, how do you guys provocative individuals -- how do you guys profile corrupt individuals, such as in law enforcement, people who manipulate records? my name is aaron, and i was born in illinois, and at two months ago, i got out profile report from the west virginia said saying that i am a born in texas. i am not born in texas. the police department has manipulated two of my it rests in 2008. how would i go about changing these, knowing that these are corrupt individuals anin the police department? i need some help. these are corrupt individuals. i am not born in texas. guest: the fbi does investigate police corruption and civil

rights violations. what i would suggest is he contacted local fbi office and make his concerns known. that would be the best way for him to proceed at this point. host: let me dig down a little bit in the training of our profiler. forensic pathology. what is it? guest: that is the study of the science of dead bodies, looking for causes of death. when i went through profiling training, i took courses in basic and advanced forensic pathology at the institute in bethesda, maryland. that does not make me a forensic pathologist by any stretch of the imagination, but it allows profilers to read autopsy reports with a better understanding of what is being discussed in their. what i would also add is that the bureau has outside experts, people on contract, a forensic pathologist on contract. when we have specific questions, as we had in a number of cases,

i could pick up the phone and call one of these pathologists and say, here is what i am reading, i am not understanding this, is this what they mean? sometimes we get the contract pathologist and a touch with the pathologist who did the exam. host: a total of 400 hours looking at behavioral-type sizes, psychology, psychiatry. how much time did you spend a studying psychology and psychiatry? guest: again, i have a master's degree in psychological services. that component, the academic component. what we are looking at at the bureau is how it psychopathology is expressed in crimes and crimes scenes. that is what we want to look at. that is a unique area. you can get a ph.d. in psychology, a forensic psychology, and never see a crime scene or look at it. what we're doing is taking what we know about mental disorder, mental illness, and looking at how that manifests itself in

criminal behavior. host: jack is a democrat in montana. caller: yes, hi. i heard you mention montana, i was wondering if you could tell the audience about the fact that the field office in butte, montana, was noted to be the worst assignment for an fbi agent, and people were sent there to be punished. is that right? host: how you know that? caller: newspaper articles have been written in the local press. guest: there is some truth and falsehood to that, jack. host: [laughter] guest: the joke in the hoover days is that if you screwed up, you would get transferred to butte. some folks love butte.

a good friend of mine is from the area. host: what did he do to get back there? guest: he got an office transfer so he wanted to go there. there are obviously disciplinary procedures for agencies whose good things out. -- it was sort -- for agent who screw things up. it was sort of a standing joke back and the days, that if you screwed things up, you end up in butte. salaries.filers' taxpayers are paying for the bureau. how salaries changed over the years? guest: you can go to the website and look at the scale. field agents top off at 13, and then you go up to 14. most are 14. whatever that salary is today -- host: is that the highest, gs14?

guest: yes, if you stay as a profiling. if you state administratively, you get salary increases. the profiler, the title would be supervisory special agent, a grade 14. host: gregg mccrary is the author of a book, "unknown darkness." diane is a republican in minnesota. caller: thank you. thank you for having all this week all year discussions on what the fbi does. i am curious to find out, because we have been to so many major cities and we have had the opportunity to see what major cities look like, i'm wondering how you could triple the amount

of fbi, cia employees. each city we go to, including minneapolis, it seems like they are destroyed, but destroyed by gangs. why not spend more time -- i guess my question is -- host: diane, we will take your question about field offices. guest: certainly any field office with a gang problem has a gang task force but the local agency would be responsible. that is an area we have an interest in. their task forces and a place to do with that. granted, it is like other crime problems. we have not solved it totally. it still exists, but it certainly is not being ignored. host: are profilers in all 56 field offices -- -- of them

guest: what we have in every field of this is at least one isrdinator -- f ielield office at least one coordinator. some training, and knows what we need, what we want. they can call the field office and say we need a profile. they know the materials we need to look at and so forth. we have the middle man, if you will, sometimes more than one in the field, trained as coordinators and can coordinate with local authorities. we do go out. sometimes they come out to us and it is an ongoing case, and we triage these -- if it is an on going serial murder or rape case and where there is a realistic threat of harm, many times we go out. this become our no. 1 priority, to stop the violence as quickly as we can.

if it is an old cold case, homicide from 10 years ago, we will look at, but not today. host: triage -- what you mean by that? guest: sort of like medical triage, the most dramatic casualties a first. whose life is really hanging in the balance? the ones that can hang on for awhile, we will get to later. we look at the ones with the most accident circumstances that need the quickest response -- most exigent circumstances that the quickest response. host: georgetown, massachusetts, independent. caller: hello? host: we are listening, ben. go ahead. caller: i'm wondering if you apply your expertise -- i know you are not in the fbi at the time -- during the 9/11 attacks. i spent some time looking into it and the forensic evidence of it.

you can even look, if you were to do it toxicology report on these people dying from this abnormal lung disease, i think what you find inside the lungs are these nano-size particles of dust that can only be manufactured at a highly controlled facility. i guess -- sorry, i'm just a little nervous, it is kind of a big issue -- host: are you wondering if he has looked into this? caller: well, personally, it is my understanding that the fbi was involved in the 9/11 theestigation, but fema had lead on this, which seemed odd to me to begin with, because they are under direct control of the president -- host: ok, all right, we will take it from there. let's talk about the investigation into fema -- tell

us what you now. guest: first of all, i was not involved in the 9/11 investigation -- host: right, right, right. guest: the fbi would have the lead it is a terrorist attack, said the fbi would have lead jurisdiction -- host: because it is domestic. guest: even overseas, when there are attacks on embassies overseas, at the bureau's investigative and jurisdiction and we fly -- the bureau has investigated the jurisdiction and we fight over i think where he was going with this is that it is something that could be manufactured in labs. we still have a lot of conspiracy theories about the 9/11 attacks, that it was an inside job good people believe what they want to believe, but i think the evidence shows that this was done by the terrorists who hijacked those airplanes.

i don't know any evidence of any sort of particle -- the only thing i could think of is that right after 9/11, the anthrax attacks. those were inhalational deaths of the anthrax particles that were suspended in white powder and all of that. that is separate from the 9/11 attacks. host: what has been difficult in your career, the most difficult of all to put together, and why? -- most typical profile to put together, and why? -- most difficult profile to put together, and why? guest: there was a serial murder case where the murderer was killing in europe and the united states. if you say it is fiction, people are not going to believe it, but this was a member of the media who was covering his own murders for the media.

he was reporting on it, running for the newspaper, going on tv and doing interviews, covering his own murders, meanwhile going out and killing of these women and reporting on it, into giving detectives and the people in charge of the -- interviewing detectives and the people in charge of the investigation. it was an intriguing case. host: did your profile include that aspect? guest: i was testify in austria about this trial over there. he went into los angeles to kill people. this is why criminals don't think like you and i think, necessarily. if he went into los angeles to kill, would you avoid at all costs? probably it the police department you would not want them to know you are in town to kill people. this guy, the narcissism that there, the first thing he does is go to the lapd and introduce himself as a foreign journalist.

they give him a ride-along and shows him with the prostitutes work. he comes back and tells them while he is in town. -- and kills them while he is in town. host: george is an independent in missouri. caller: the fbi -- do they study cyber-crime? that is miscible question -- my simple question -- host: earlier this week, you and others may be interested, we will respond to cyber-threats -- we focused on cyber-threats -- yesterday, actually, on "washington journal." they can all be found on c- span.org. guest: i would defer to the

program, but that is certainly something profilers are looking at. you read the newspaper and the fbi does make arrests on the attacking -- these hacking cases and so forth. host: trent, independent in st. paul, minnesota. caller: good morning. hello? host: we are listening. caller: i want to ask the gentleman, how much time does the fbi have to investigate corruption within the department of justice? guest: well, again, but certainly that would be something the bureau would be interested in, and corruption within the department of justice itself. we have as much time as we needed to do that, depending upon the nature of the allegation and a little -- nature of the allegation and the

validity of the allegation. i am sure we would not be opposed to doing -- politics would not get involved at all. it would be a professional investigation into that. host: what is your training like for interrogation techniques? guest: interview at an interrogation, the whole idea is to elicit the truth from an individual. it can be dicier than you might think initially, because of the psychological issues many times. who is the person we are interviewing? other psychological issues that come to bear? it could be mental illness, personality disorders. all that has to be evaluated when you are constructing and shaping an interview or interrogation strategy. the basic thing, like i say, think of it as a crime scene that we want to search very carefully. we want to be sure we don't contaminate it. don't ask any leading questions. i will not ask you if you saw a

red car. i will say, "tell me what you saw," because i don't want to give you the idea that there was a red car involved in this thing. it can be more nuanced, dealing with particular mental issues of the person you are interrogating. host: so what kind of training do you go through? guest: it takes practice, not something you can just learn in a classroom. being a field agent, 10 years or more of experience, you have conducted hundreds of thousands of interviews and you have an idea of how it goes. that gives you credibility when you go out to interview detectives did you have to have something more than just academic training. you have got to have a real-life experience doing that to get credible advice. host: on the republican line -- dulce, is that your name? -- in california. caller: yes.

thank you for taking my question bridge for the last five years, i worked with severely disorganized and mentally ill people who committed serious crimes. at the same time, i get people who are coming out of prison who look like they are severely disorganized in the mental health, but what we come to see is that they have been on drugs for several years. once they a clean up, what happens is that we realize, ok, this is probably drug-induced psychosis. i want to know, is there a way for you to tell in the crime scene between somebody who is severely ill or somebody who is on drugs, who looked like they are severely mentally ill? guest: the short answer is no. it will be a disorganized crime scene and whether it is a result of mental illness or a drug-

induced issue. it will have the same characteristics. it will be frenzied, look chaotic. that is one of the things we say, there could be contribute in factors. youth could be a contributing factor, mental illness, drug abuse. all those things by themselves or in combination with one another can have a disorganized crime scene. host: i wonder how the bureau agents iview policymakers in washington, d.c., the guys who write the checks and give the resources you need. guest: probably not surprising to sehear that we never get the resources we need. truthfully, i am not with the fbi now, but a lot of good liaison goes between headquarters and the folks on the hill who make decisions, and

we try to explain what we're doing, why we are doing it, and why we need support on this. it is a continuing -- i would not say battle, but discussion that goes on. host: how have you seen the bureau change? guest: it has changed dramatically. the biggest sea change after 9/11, the shift in to terrorism was a big shift. it was part of what we have done before, but there was a big sea change it around and. everything has changed. no femalent in, a agents. it was more of a paramilitary thing. two guys to a locker, eight guys to a room. we will b -- we would be shuttled around in these trucks. host: more like you were in the military. guest: now it is more like a college campus, and we have a

female agents, and it is great. it has changed dramatically over the years, far for the better. host: you are still involved in profiling. what do you do? guest: i think it was alex who asked before -- i am a retired now, but i still do work in crime cases, the testimony in criminal cases, prosecution and defense cases -- depends on teh he facts -- and i teach part- time at a couple of universities. i will be doing in law enforcement presentation later this month, presentations for different agencies. i will be talking to the canadian association of psychiatry and the law later this year. still involved in crime and crime scene analysis and providing expert testimony in cases. host: gregg mccrary, former fbi profiler, 1969 to 1995, author of a book, "unknown darkness."

eileen is joining us, connecticut, independent. caller: i am wondering about the software that bill and linda hamilton had stolen by the justice department, and that edwin meese and earl bryan were linked to, and the judge concluded that indeed, the federal government had stolen their proprietary software and remade it to have a back door in it. he gave them my judgment, and the federal government has never paid that judgment. i'm wondering where you stand on that, since you deal in criminal activity and investigate it. guest: again, i don't know anything about that particular case, so i really don't want to comment on the case i am not familiar with. it would just be wrong for me to

do that. sorry i cannot answer the question, but i just don't know this is a mix of the case and it would be wrong for me to speculate as to what that might be. host: does hollywood get it right? you see a lot of shows -- guest: dramatic shows, fun things to watch. "criminal minds" is a popular show. the bottom line is no. we don't fly around on a private jets like the guys on "criminal minds" do. a guy asked me, "to you watch ' criminal minds'? you kept to the jet plane hit in fro-- hidden from me." host: [laughter] guest: we don't get an issue

dots or fly on private jets. we solve crimes. -- we don't get in shootouts are fly on private jets. we solve crimes. local and state police -- we are just a resource for them to use. host: would surprise -- what would surprise you is about -- surprise viewers about the work? ness,: the tedious reading a report after report after report. i was in ohio, 6000 pages of documents to work through. the tediousness is what people might be surprised about. host: profiling, is that tedious work? guest: oh, yes, you have to review all these documents before you can offer any sort of opinion. you do not want to jump out and get ahead of yourself and start

offering opinions when you have not really seen all the evidence. it takes a lot of time sometimes. host: gregg mccrary, i want to say thank you very much for joining us this morning. we will continue to take a phone call or two, but thank you for being with us and talking to our viewers. guest: sure, please to do it. host: james in louisiana. caller: just a couple of weeks ago, they testified in court that the ivan guy could not have pulled off the ax attack, and then a couple of days later they said, oh, they could was the anthrax case solved the way the fbi tells us it is? host: actually, mr. mccrary is not here any longer, but why is

that important to you? james i. walker, louisiana -- i think we lost him. we are in the national crime and punishment museum in washington, d.c. they at five distinct galleries looking at criminal intent, solving crimes, prevention of crimes, different aspects of crime and punishment. they were inside the crime solving part of the museum, where you can learn about toxicology, ballistics, etc., and we're joined by the chief operating officer at the museum. thanks for being with us. when did the museum open? give us the highlights. guest: may 23, 20008. we completed our three-year anniversary. the museum is broken up into five different galleries. we start with the history of crime, take people through the history of punishment, showing

there is a consequence to crime, and we focus on crime fighting and all the different branches, including the fbi, like you just had here, and you work yourself into a crime scene investigation and area where you start seeing the crime scene and it takes you through how long law-enforcement takes solving a crime spree at the last level, -- takes solving a crime spree at the last level, at the "america's most wanted" area. host: where john walsh filmed his program for many years. guest: we also offer labs in that area. you just saying, tv show reality. we teach classes showing how law enforcement goes about with their techniques, and we will offer virtual programming with

universities. host: you show what agents have to go through with training, shooting guns and driving cars. guest: we have a driving and shooting a simulator that is really used in a law- enforcement. military uses that. host: is it really what they go through? guest: i actually get motion sickness on the driving simulator because it feels a real. you can add the weather conditions, high speed chases. and kind of make you feel queasy. host: how many visitors a year to you get? guest: we are a private museum so we do not release the numbers. host: how much does it cost? . guest: $20, with discounts for law enforcement, seniors and children. a lot of times people spend all day and hear, but typically people spend an hour and half to two hours.

host: have you seen attendance go down in this economy? guest: our museum opened when the economy started tanking, so we opened in a bad time, but since we are a new museum, our attendance has grown every year, because people are still finding out about us. as i say to everyone, this truly is america's favorite subjects. tv shows are on it, the news is on it. hopefully we will see attendance grow. host: what you hear when people leave the museum? guest: people say, all but " we love everything, this is great," and parents say it is the one museum that they literally had to pull their kids away from. --have a lot of complemen compliments.

host: is privately run, no government money. guest: no government money. self-funded. host: you differ from the smithsonian museums in washington, d.c. . guest: we are not getting taxpayer donations. we are ruhn on admissions. host: how are you different from other museums in town? we have a spy museum. guest: the spy museum is focused on espionage, and that is included in a law enforcement. we are focused on a much broader subject. we have all the different galleries. it is a very broad subject. we have artifacts on all of that, and the experience in all of that. host: we want to thank you and the museum for letting us broadcast here this morning

and have our shows here. and that does it for today's "washington journal" an hour series about the fbi. if you are interested in watching the different segments, go to c-span.org. we will see you tomorrow morning. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2010] >> today, republican presidential candidate gary johnson will speak at the national press club in washington on the topic of

republicans and social issues. live coverage at 1:00 p.m. eastern. there is more on our website, c- span.org/campaign2012 with the latest twitter feeds and facebook updates from the campaigns. joe biden is on his first vice- presidential trip to the far east as a part of efforts to reno and intensify the u.s. role in asia -- reno and intensify the u.s. role in asia. on monday, he will visit mongolia to meet with the prime minister and the president. vice president joe biden travels to tokyo where he will meet with the japanese prime minister, a visit with american troops, and for earthquake-stricken areas. >> what was shocking to me and

many people in pakistan was that these assassinations were welcomed, they were congratulated by many pakistani. these are not terrorists. they are not al qaeda, taliban, but ordinary pakistani is that feel their religion is threatened, the country is becoming too secular, and islamic values are under attack, and that blasphemy, anything that consults the profit is something that should be defended with your life. >> pamela constable, sunday night, on c-span. washington journal took a look at the economies with three separate guest. this is about an hour and 15 minutes. the first of three economies around the globe

doing better in this global economy, the first is focusing on china. our guest is yukon huang, a senior associate at the carnegie endowment asia program. he will be with us for the next 20 or 25 minutes. we will get you involved in this discussion about china possibly economy. this week when the vice president joe biden is there to help shore up the economic relations between our two countries. it was a snapshot. what is the state of china's economy? guest: it country growing at 10% a year worries more about inflation than doubled it recession. rather than dealing with high unemployment, it actually cannot find enough workers because the economy is booming, exports surging. the real concern is how to maintain double-digit growth for the next decade. host: where is the investment money coming from? guest: they generate a lot of savings from households. households save about 30% of

their income and americans say out 4%, or 5%. the government surplus is used for investment. the corporations generate a lot of internal profits which are reinvestment. the consequence is china invest about 45% of gdp. compared to the united states, investing about 20%. so twice as much as a share of the economy of the united states. it leads to very high productivity growth and profits. host: let me just show you some headlines. this is from "international business news." the head line -- "china's big econic bubble." five reasons it is sure to burst. guest: people are concerned about the property bubble. prices increasing about 10% to 50% for the past five years -- every year for the past five years. residential property, which seems to be empty.

the government i concerned about overbuilding of the high end and they are trying to encourage more low-cost housing. there is a legitimate concern about the housing bubble, just like america here worried about a housing bubble four or five ars ago. host: headline in "the atlanta." the new five-year plan focuses on rebalancing and investment driven economy. the need to create more consumers. guest: this is the great irony. here in the united states we are concerned about overconsumption and not investing enough, and when people look at china, they say here is an economy that does not seem to be consuming as much and seems to be investing too much. from a chinese perspective, they are a little skeptical about this argument because what they see in the west is they got into a lot of problems by trying to encourage consumption and they did not invest enough. here in china they are consuming relatively speaking to little and perhaps investing too much. what is the right balance?

i think that the domestic consumption needs to increase. if an happen -- if it happens, it will moderate investment and they will probably need to. with recession in the western world, exports become more limited and in which case not a need to invest as much as in the past. host: phone lines are open and you can send us a message by email and also a twitter message, a tweet. chinese economy, especially h it compares to hours and the allies in the west. let me ask you -- an early -- in order to create consumers, one needs the middle-class. what is happening to the population? 1.3t: china's population, billion people, because of the one-child policy, population growth has slowed. that is one reason why the labor force is not growing and ty are running out of labor. nevertheless, because of rising incomes, the double-digit growth for three decades, get an emerging middle class,

essentially from nothing to about -- another fiber 10 years, it may be 500 million people. that is a huge market. that is why firms are investing heavily. in asia -- large rise in the middle class with a large consumption needs. host: here is an example of that. this story here suggests that the chairman and chief executive of coke says it plans $4 billion of new spending in china the next three years, the biggest investment by multinational food and beverage group targeting the world's number two economy. he says the money will be used to add bottling plants, expand facilities, fund distribution and marketing and development of new drinks -- the third largest global market growing in double digits. not on the agenda is acquisitions. it is no longer on the radar screen because we are seeing so much potential for organic

growth. those are the kinds of ores people want to read about in this country. so, the population there is ready to consume? what is keeping them back? guest: like any former developing country, you have to realize that per-capita income is about $4,000, and united states it is over $40,000. but if you are growing at 10% a year, you would be upper-middle- class economy in five years and by then you would have a very large middle income class. this has become a very urban economy. a 10 or 15 years ago, 75% in the rural areas, and then a few years and now they will be in the cities. they are drinking coffee, moving away from t. buying cards, basically buying more televisions. so, this is a huge consuming ass and you see retail sales growth of 15% to 20% a year and in the united states we are hopeful we can get sales growth

of 3% to 4% a year. for american companies, this is what we see is a huge business opportunity. host: manufacturing and exports -- export sector. we hear about china that a lack of trade and copyright law. in fact, the risk of the products being copied and manufactured at a cheaper price and no redress in chinese courts. can you talk about that trade? guest: i think this is a big issue. the chinese economy and society is not used to legal protection, intellectual property rights. there is a lot of infringement and illegal copying. there is piracy of software and records and bbb disks throughout china. there are copies of western purses, designs, fashions. the other day there was huge publicity surrounding the fact that there are fake apple distribution retail stores and merging in china. the whole store is a fake store.

they will sell your legitimate apple products but the store itself is an illegal store. this is the issue. this is what i call an aspect of what you see in terms of a developing country. they don't have the institutional structures, the legal framework. host: do they have the incentive to created? guest: it will. because at some point in time it will be chinese doing chinese. if years ago 99% of the lawsuits were foreigners the sewing chinese company and now today it is 50-50 because chinese companies are becoming established and they are worried about piracy. you give it another five or 10 years, you will see the bulk suing are chinese firms suing other chinese firms. at that point, i would say the politics will change dramatically. host: i want to get to calls. one question more before we do that. of the three -- three countries we are profiling, china is the

only one with a communist government, central planning. how does it make it different from other emerging countries with good economies? guest: they can make decisions frkly democracies cannot. win xiaoping -- he needed decision to channel investment and production along the coastal areas because he saw that as the greatest potential. this is why china is so productive. in the united states or europe, before you took the policies and i will concentrate my resources or capacity and opportunity is greatest, you had this huge outcry about what about the neglected areas, hinterlands, central and middle america. once they lose out? and china, what they said it is those people need to mov 300 people move from the central portion of china's along the coast -- china along the coast. there are rules against people relocating to other places.

that is why have the migrant workers, single people, they let their families behind. the families now are slowly being allowed to join them. this is the big difference. you can do something credit be quickly. but there is a cause. high-speed trains -- they are able to do this in a short span but they sacrificed some kind of regulatory safety considerations. so there is a cost to this kind of sed a forceful decision making. host: one story related to that -- high-speed rail crash that killed 20 people. this also goes back to the centralized planning part of the government. it is an "the new york times" today. fiat of -- fired official gets a new post.

guest: i don't think what you would call public accountability in china. host: isn't it changing with the internet? guest: in the past the person would not have been fired, he would be wrong -- relocated -- now there is a necessity. why is given something else? he actually felt a was responding to what the government wanted. he was working for a ministry whose sole responsibility is to build a high-speed railroad as quickly as possible. the consequence being safety and regulations were ignored. now that's the public realizes the problem, the realize they have to do something about it. they would say he was following the government's objectives in

some way and therefore he should not be penalized and he will probably show up in another job. host: mesa, arizona. anthony is on the air. we will move on to woodbridge, virginia. marcella, independent. guest: i was wondering to ask your guest -- in 1972 when president nixon opened up trade with china, everybody was excited because they said we would sell 1 billion toothbrushes to the chinese. now it seems like the tables have actually turned and they are selling 1 billion toothbrushes to us. we import more than we export to china. also, i wondered how is health care administered in a country with such a large population? thank you for the time. st: thank you for the question.

guest: i think we need to put the trade, which is aighly emotional issue, into proper context. actually the eu and the u.s. is china that the biggestxport markets but china is also america's biggest export market. there is a huge deficit in terms of u.s. trade, as it is shows up as a huge surplus in terms of time a's trade. but china's trade is unique. it accident doesn't produce much of the stuff exported to the united states. if you take the ipod, $150, exrted to the united states. of that, $5 actually goes to china for chinese labor. $80 actually goes to apple, copyright, marketing, distribution. the other $65 comes from components made in hong kong, singapore, taiwan, south korea. the big irony, the $150 exports from china is not actually

really a chinese products. many parts made -- productsade in china, a lot produced elsewhere and a large part -- proportion produced in the united states, so the exporting is exporting to itself actually three china. it is complicated. host: what policy governs the relationship? guest: trade policy negotiations are being complicated by the fact that really trade is carried out by companies, not countries. multinational companies. 50% of if it% are maged by u.s. companies. all the computers are made over there, and they get the malt -- the bulk of the money. this generates jobs in terms of marketers, accountants, lawyers.

effected turned to the question about health, china has -- if i could turn to the question about alth, when they move from a socialist economy to a market economy, all of the rural people lost health insurance. in the urban area, they all still -- also lost health insurance. now, china is as that which in urban and rural health insurance programs. host: corpus christi, tes. arthur, a republican. good morning. caller: good morning. your guest seems like a very good person to ask my question. do you think that this global economy is just too complicated for human beings to manage? guest: nobody is managing the

global economy. it manages itself in ways said no one knows how what will happen. 20, 30 years ago, when you have a financial crisis in one country, the crisis was pretty much restricted to one country. now, a problem in europe effects everyone but when the interest rate goes up in china, it effects the stock market in new york. there is no such thing as an american company or a chinese company, for a european company. take general motors. they get most of their profits from china. is that good for the united states? in no way, it is, because that allows them to retool in the united states, -- in a way, it is, because it allows them to be told in the united states. host: called the telegraph co-

called in london had a story -- "the telegraph" had a story this morning that suggests the future is difficult to call because of a looming clashes between china and america. the easy thing to assume -- continued slow growth in america juxtaposed with rapid growth in china. it's hot -- it hardly seems like equilibrium. america's patients is wearing thin. he thinks it will end up with a trade battle. guest: if you go to any big shopping mall in china, you'll be struck by the fact that everything is imported. people find the sirenic. -- find this ironic.

95% of the goods are european. there's hardly anything from the united states the europeans have figured it out. they have to cater to a chinese market that wants high-and quality goods, and they're concerned with designed. host: what are we doing? guest: what is the number one category? the first category is aircraft. boeing airplanes, understandable. the second largest category is scrap materials. then you get food products, rice, soybeans. then when you get to category four and five, you get to things like electronics and machinery. this is the opposite of europe. the real issue is can we get into this market and can these low-cost mass-consumer items,

can i get into the high-end materials and machinery? kenneth starr exporting services? -- can i start exporting services? how much of this is being used to sell to foreigners? one of the foreigners actually doing? they are trying to set up health services in their own country and bring the americans there. i find this an example of a great irony. host: is it a challenge to the manufacture high-and goods when they are manufactured in europe as well? guest: why have the europeans chosen that and? they are a collection of wealthy, small countries, so they have to go for specialized

lines. one of the great strengths of these -- of this country is technology. indeed a high-level investment. how do we gear up? how we make education institutions more effective, and increase production capacity in the high-tech, innovative product lines? host: let's take a call from pennsylvania. joseph, a democrat. caller: thank you. in the harrisburg paper this morning there is an article about the state-department sponsored exchange program from china. it turns out that they have employed at the hershey

chocolate co. in a warehouse that -- warehouse that is operated by an ohio-based company, and the staffing is done by a third company, and they're now protest in, saying they should belong to local, american workers. why are we being held as slaves here? the state department is investigating. it ishe irony of the american economy, and in my opinion, underneath it all is the drive to maximize the bottom line for the stockholders that has corrupted the entire economy. they do not care where they have to go to make it cheaper to max out stock values. host: i read that article, and i readhat the students were protesting that they had come for an american experience and were doing menial labor.

caller: there is a direct quote the says why are we taking these jobs fr american workers? guest: i think the challenge for america and for china is not so much jobs, cut jobs that pay a reasonable wage. -- but jobs that pay a reasonable wage. when people say we shod be manufacturing more, they should realize that most manufacturing jobs and not paid that much. they are automated. the question is how do we know generate high-value jobs? they tend to be services, but therare different levels. this is the same in china. they do not t want to foster a more

developing countries that have experienced this global meltdown, our next look is that india, and we are joined by arvind panagariya, who is an economics professor at columbia business school. give us a snapshot of how the economy of india stands today? guest: indiana is far below which an apparent -- far below china. average income is $1,300 per capita, but it has grown rapidly. it is grown about 8%-9% in the next 10 years. the rupee has been appreciating in real terms. the economy has grown in the last eight years at about 15%.

host: we would like to hear that story in the united states. what has been the source of that growth? guest: a lot economic reforms started in 1991, and continued imminent -- into the 1990's, until 2000, which included the end of the light -- import licensing, opening up to four investment, privatization in the communications sector, and so forth. so, lots and lots of economic reforms took place. they finally came together. they began to escalate a little bit in the 1980's, and roll back up in the 1990's, but it took off after the reforms were in place starting in 2004. it is really a good example of where good policies have

actually resulted in very substantial escalation of growth alongside major reductions in poverty. host: can you tell us what important policies governing u.s.-india trade? guest: on the trade side, india manufacturing dynamo, like china is. they can export services. on the manufacturing size, it is more capital-intensive, so you see engineering goods. and pharmaceuticals, is doing well. software, i mentioned, and those other types of products. the u.s. imports largely

machinery. u.s. services, of course. beijing services coming in, insurance services -- banking services coming in, insurance services. there is another sector where u.s. companies are active within india. host: we will invite our viewers telephone calls, twitter messages, and e-mail about the u.s. and india trade, and the state of india put the economy. we have heard growth numbers, and are envious. our guest, mr. arvind panagariya is here to take your telephone calls. let me ask you about the consumer class in india. as you just heard, in the chinese economy they're trying

to convert to more consumption. give us a look at the indian population, and how it has changed in this growing economy. new guest: as in china, the middle class is growing very rapidly. you can see the impact within india in the last four or five years. indian cities are populated by these mega-malls. some of these in bombay look more impressive than the ones here in the united states. about 200 or 300 million consumers. a lot of these are very young. one of the things about india is the population is extremely young. i should also mention of what

will have important implications --. demographics are there -- the demographics are there. the population in the age group 24-49 will rise by 100 million. it is my prediction that in a less -- next 15 years we will see a lot more indians. sometimes i'd joke that if you see to many people like me around here, wait 15 years, and you'll see many more. as in china, the western goods are in demand. a lot of people have the iphone in india before i had it. host: if you go into the shopping malls and pick up

products, where did they mostly come from? guest: they come from all over, including from within india as well. there are also a lot of chinese products. there's a little bit of fear in india as well [unintelligible] they tell me when they go and open up with indian counterparts, the reaction from the other side is often why are you asking for it because it is awfully the chinese will take over the market. -- likely the chinese will take over the market. the u.s. major auto companies are very much present.

with harlan,egin indiana, carroll is a democrat there. good morning. caller: i noticed the quality. u.s. consumers pay attention to the quality of what they are presented with, and i have noticed most china, and i do not know about india so much -- one thing i would like to understand is i think a lot of medications are made in india, where a lot of textiles and such are made in china. are there manufacturers -- are the manufacturers through multinationals, do they set the standard of how things are made and the quality? we have had a big drywall thing where people cannot even live in houses where these things have been made in china.

some have invested a lot of money, and some cannot afford to replace it. the same way with textiles. i have had things, and i got things that the u.s. made, and there are quality. i washed them thousands of times. yet stuff like bedding and competitors, they just fall apart within a couple of years. host: let's jump in. the quality of manufactured products? new guest: when developing countries start, they're bigger advantage is the cost, and they are able to provide low-cost product. when i was growing up, chinese

products were very low quality. i think we have seen the quality improved dramatically over the last 20 years. the u.s. is a high-end market, and a much higher-wage market, so you will see that commitment in the quality. there is no question, and that is really the u.s. strength, but a lot of people are looking for bargains, and that is where the imports help out. h., a question about indian consumers -- host: a question about indian consumers demanding more wages. that is the natural cycle of things. how does that effect india's competitiveness, and it creates, i mentioned to more consumers? guest: which is to drive the

competitiveness down. in ways where india has been the exporter, and might china, india has been in the software services and called centers and so forth, but skilled labor has been in short supply. you're not seen reports where companies are same -- seen reports were companies are saying that the cost differences have been reduced. they say there is no way 10% difference in the costs between indian labor and corresponding u.s. labor. you're beginning to see that, and part of that is the failure of the indian high education system. on the supply side, the creation of additional skill sets has been much slower than demand. in the indian market, for skilled labor, uc wages rising

faster than almost anyowhere else. on the demand side, that is leading to a rising middle class. h., if there is on it and% differential -- host: if there is some a 10% differential, might they have exported their cost center jobs? might they start coming back to the united states? guest: i think ultimately they will go away from india also. in the u.s., the wages are too high. [unintelligible] by the time the indians started getting the call centers jobs. a lot of the jobs here are actually taken by machines.

press one, pressed to the below. it is mechanization, -- press two. it is mechanization. when -- will the jobs come back? maybe some, but not a lot. host: the next caller is from lake charles, indiana. ernie, an independent. ernie, are you there? he is listening to the program and not ready to be done, so we will move on to jimmy, a democrat in chicago. caller: one issue we continue to debate is health-care costs, and i'm hoping people that are against the obama administration attempts to have universal health care understand that one of the reasons why companies are leaving the united states is because of our health-care costs. so what we are trying to do is take away that cost from private

companies, and putting more towards the government, which would to a certain degree may keep some jobs here. professor, i like you to comment on that. it continues to be a debate, but we cannot compete with wages and unless we cut waste. we cannot compete with health- care costs without taking the burden off of companies. if you do not want jobs overseas, i understand, 01 of the reasons they leave it is because of the rise of health care costs, the one the government tries to take that away, we fight back. i am hoping we do not -- we understand it. these growing economies offer universal health care, and they take that away from private corporations. can you comment on that? guest: this is a complicated

question. i am a trade economist. from a social perspective, you ought to have universal coverage, and i support that, but from a trade perspective, if we try to equalize everything, i think we get into a very difficult problem, right? everyone would say that wages are higher in one place, therefore if they're to be equalized, capitalized [unintelligible] prices of electricity differ across countries. the moment we get into this equalization game, that is really ultimately cutting out the sources of competitive advantage. we are able to trade beneficially because of these cost differences that exist.

ultimately, these differences, exchanges take care of. if we have a competitive advantage, that is just telling you the u.s. dollar ought to appreciate and compensate for that difference, rather than going item-by item. host: the next caller is also from chicago, michael, an independent there. good morning. caller: good morning. i wanted to talk about one of the things facing the indian economy. there is a big movement against all of the corruption going on in all of the different sectors of the indian economy, and all over the place. one of the big concerns is they want to send a bill with a

loophole regulating the corruption in the indian parliament. my concern is how do they know it will not become another bureaucratic, corrupted sort of institution itself, rather than focusing on abolishing institutions to create the most corrupt -- corruption? guest: this is an issue. if you actually go through the route of appointment, there would have to be a mechanism in place that insures it is above suspicion, completely. even given the number of very large corruption cases that we care about in india, and there

aren't very many of them that have come to the fore in the black -- and there are very many of them that i've come to the four in the last 10 years -- that have come to the fore in the last 10 years. there are lots of people with integrity, people who are respected everywhere for their of brightness, honesty, and integrity. those are the kind of people that we have to appoint. issueer, they're also says the key issues of justices in supreme courts and high court's. you have to ensure they are honest people and people of integrity. it is not always happen, but by and large supreme court judges are honest. there are exceptions. the bigger question is really

precisely on what kind of ability to you have within the purview [unintelligible] that is where the current struggle is going on. the parliament wants control of that, and this is a movement coming out of society, so there are issues in a democracy where there is a parliament, there ought to be supreme. sometimes a civil society seizes control. that is a struggle going on in india. host: related to the struggle, this profile on the front page of "the new york times." he writes that he has emerged as the on likely face of an impassioned people's movement in india, that is cost around fighting corruption and tax into deeper anxieties in a society

buffeted by change. do you have any comments on "a society buffeted by change?" gee, i think this is a healthy moment. : i think this is athi health a moment. and there are some echoes of the golden age, and hopefully some cleansing will happen. i did not think corruption is about to disappear. the incomes will rise quite a bit before corruption since the beginning begins to disappear. when people see opportunities a lower levels of income, and the economy is growing rapidly, people see ways to make fast money, and that is by expanding corruption, which is what we

have observed. at the same time, as they rise, i think there is good scope, and the use of technology becomes easier corresponding to education. the movement itself is a fairy welcome -- a very welcome. host: we're talking about the indian economy. "the economic times" has this story -- and it could be a $5.60 trillion dollar economy. our next call, lake charles, louisiana, bernie, an independent. caller: it is evelyn. host: i'm sorry about that. caller: i'm calling from phoenix, ariz., and i have a hard time accepting that our

ceo's our outsourcing jobs that could be given to americans to give to china, india, brazil, or any other country. i'll tell you my personal experiences. they have taken over the telemarketing business, and when i call and have a problem at my bank, i get somebody in that does not speak english well, does not care whether you can understand them or not, and these men hang up on women traditionally, a lot, because they did not respect them. why are we giving money to these countries when we are bleeding? we are hurting for these jobs kept on the other end, -- jobs. on the other end, i am for entitlements. if you need them they should be available. there are a lot of americans that could be put to work, and

certain jobs they could do partially. everyone should work if they can't. then the government subsidizes the rest. there is so much corruption within the entitlement programs. i am on social security disability. i can not waste your time in talking to you, because you're talking about other countries, but there corruption comes from -- they are stealing money from apple when they do lookalikes, or whatever they call them, and try to sell them off as the real thing. that hurts america. host: evelyn, thank you. dr. arvind panagariya, anything for evelyn and her concern about outsourcing jobs americans can do? guest: those jobs are there because the wages there are lower, and it is really the services that evelyn has described the there is no reason

to doubt. i think eventually those called centers will get shot down. there are firms that have shoddy products. as consumers, if we refuse to buy their products, they get shut down, and the same goes for call centers. we should have some sense of numbers. the entire software industry in india is not too large in terms of numbers. it is a little over 2 million people. when we talk of jobs, it is not so large, but the numbers are not as large as we think. it has a lot to do with the technology changes. that does lead to a lot of lost jobs. host: let's close by putting numbers about india on the

screen. there unemployment rate is currently 10.8%, higher than the united states, and the major indudustries and textiles, food, . will meet the political editor of" the brazilian economy magazine." joão de castro neves, thank you for being here. tell us about brazil's economy today. guest: brazil has been known for having an unstable economy during the 1970's and 1980's '80s with one of the largest of inflation and -- with one of the

largest inflation rates in the world. there is no plan of macro- economic stabilization that has been successful, and in the last seven or eight years the economy has grown consistently. the economy is very dynamic. it is the eighth seventh largest in the world, and the brics acronym are not considered the emerging economies. in the case of brazil specifically, there is also a great importance on agriculture. if you take the most important crops like sugar, corn, brazil is the top producer and exporter of these products. host: give us a sense of the civilian population, and what has been happening to them. guest: because of sustainable economic growth and stability,

in the sunset inflation is under control, there has been -- and in that inflation is under control, the largest class in brazil is the middle class. for the first time in history, brazil is an unequal society, and the middle class is the most represented in brazil. that is a positive sign for brazil. if you go to brazil, and compare it to date to 10 years ago, it is a much better brazilian the political sense, political stability, and it is a market ecomy. there are many challenges, but there's a general sense the country is moving forward. host: the brazilian president is instituting a series of austerity measures in the country right now. given all of the robust

reporting, what are the concerns? guest: the general concern is curious because bzil has been accustomed to dealing with a lack of resources, economic problems, inflation, as i mentioned before, and the lack of resources to invest in the government, mainly. now, we have enjoyed the stable economic environment not only inside of brazil, but also outside brazil before the economic crisis of 2008, so brazil has learned to deal with an abundance of resources. we have put in place checks and balances in order to fight corruption, and increase production. the challenges facing this and administration are those facing many other emerging economies -- transparency, corruption. when you talk about emerging economies, there is a sense of

its dynamic, and you have to take it with a grain of salt. there are still considerations in absence of this rise parity in the case of brazil, these -- rise. in the cas of brazil, there is a constant need for economic reforms. so, the main problem is to try to not only maintain stabilization, not only keep the reasonle and sound economic policies in place, but also that deal with the political scenarios, the political manse -- landscape there is in braz. is a multi-party system, and the governing coalition is composed of 15 parties. there are a lot of political challenges, and the economic challenges that face any emerging economy. brazil is a major exporter of primary goods, and with a downturn in e global economy, the resistance brazil could be hurt, and their main partners today is china.

brazil depends on china. there is a plus side to that, and there is also a negative side, which is this something goes wrong with the chinese economy, its seven-to impact. host: here is a look at brazil by the numbers. host: 20% agriculture, 66% in services mineral, fuel, organic chemicals. commercial services exports, el, mineral, fuel, organic chemicals mineral, fuel, organic

chemicals. commercial services exports $12.7 million. what trade agreements govern a u.s.-brazilian trade? guest: brazil and the u.s. are the main economies in canada and the western hemisphere -- and canada, also, are the main economies in the western hemisphere. there are always challenges of intent to have a trade deal. in the 1990's, they try to put a free-trade agreement with the americas, which was basical an extension of the north american free trade agreement that includes canada and mexico, and a united states now has a bundle of agreements with chile,nd columbia, which i think congress supposed to ratify. with brazil, there is a different scenario because it is

part of a customs union, the common market of the south along with argentina paraguay, and hear a glide along with -- year ago why, along with venezuela. it is somewhat similar to the european union. they do not have specific trade deals. they have an issue-by-issue our rangement with the united states appeared in the case of brazil, there is -- . united states. in the case of brazil, there is intense trade, but in terms of a major comprehensive trade deal, there is not one. but, it has been one of the major priorities in the u.s. and brazil's administration during the 1990's, a hemispheric trade deal that would include all 34 countries of the americas together.

that did not succeed well. as a result, the united states has its own trade deals with the region, and brazil exits on trade deals with a region, but if you look major economies, did not have a comprehensive trade bill in place. host: let's go to your telephone calls beginning with one from georgia, john, a democrat. go ahead. caller: good morning. brazil is a gorgeous country, and i enjoyisiting. i think som of the viewers would be interested in hearing some of the differences between brazilian workers and american workers, such as how many paid holidays brazilian workers get, and if i were to open a company and i wanted to order -- hire 50 people, but brought in all hundred to keep the best 50, how

much left to pay the 50 that i dropped? guest: one of the challenges brazil still faces is labor reform. it is very expensive for you to open a business in brazil today. there is bureaucracy there are many faces of government you have to deal with, state, federal, municipal. i do not know the exact numbers, but brazils one of the slowest countries when you want to open a business parity will take a year or so to do so. -- businesses. it will take a year or so to do so. the average price for labor is cheap when you compare to the united states in general, but compared to other developed

economies, there are many other .exaaxes it is very complicated. there are many similarities between brazil and the united states in the economic sense, a set of aynamic agricultural sector, and industry, but also in the sense that they share many values -- many cultural traits, including people from all overhe world that went to brazil as emigrants 100 or two hundred years ago. it is a democracy. when you compare the two, many of the problems that the u.s. faces in dealing with its economy and unemployment, brazil also faces. it is very similar. the challenge for brazil today is trying to make it a better

place for people to do business. the size of brazil's government, the sta, is very large. the state has a dominant presence in the economy in brazil, and that is se with concern. taxes in brazil are sky-high, and the government does not give many public services in exchange. there are many challenges, so much to the united states. host: next call and question comes from richard, watchings in nework city. caller: good morning. i have question about the effect of the imf on brazil, argentina. before that, i have a brief comment. you had three countries there are rising economies -- china, dia, and now brazil.

i do not fault their governments for outsourcing or anything of tt kind. i mean, they are basically looking out for the best interests of their citizens. i wish our government would do the same thing. as these countries are rising, ou country is falling, and their root cause of this is in washington, d.c., and they're both democrats and republicans. now, what effect is the imf have been on brazil, and especially argentina? in argentina, i know the country is in a mess. i know these imf loans are just ruinous. host: thank you, richard. guest: imf has been an important part ofrazil's economic history, and in the 1990's, and early-2000's, brazil was going through the stabilization, and

developed -- and dependent on the imf and other multilateral institutions to gain support of the international community to put in place its own domestic plan that changes brazil's currency. brazil had two or three imf loans in the past 15 years, but as i mentioned in the beginning of the program, in the past six or seven years, the environment has been so favorable that brazil does not have any deal with the imf. quite the contrary. its share of imf is bundling. it is a favorable situation between brazil and the imf. argentina's economy still inspires some degree of concern,

but the situation today is much better than it was 5 for 10 years ago. host: more on the brazilian economy. consul, alabama. ned. good morning. caller: you said in the 1990's there were efforts to make it like a european union for the americas, and it did not succeed. first of all, who is they? who started the motion for that? second, why did not succeed? guest: there are many -- the sense of having trade deals in the americas, there are many countries in the region that once you have trade deals. the differences what kind of trade deal you put in place. there is a european union model at is a more comprehensive model of a common market, and a

common currency, even. simplemore, let's say, or superficial trade deal said simply cut tariffs down. there are 34 in the hemisphere, 35 if you count cuba, and each has their idea of what an ideal trade would be in the region. there were many initiatives in bush990's, but the administration in 1991 lunch in the initiative of the americas and debt -- that launched this idea of a free-trade from alaska. what came of it, basically, was only nafta, the north american free trade agreement. it stopped in mexico.

in 2000, with theecond bush administration, they united deals tcap on signing with some south american countries. why did the 34 countries and not a range this major free trade deal with america? there were 34 different formulas, and in the case of brazil, they did not like what the u.s. put on the table to gotiate. keep in mind, bilater, or even regional trade deals are not the only trade deals that exist. simultaneously, you negotiate trade in the world trade

organization, a multilateral level. when some negotiations fail, bilateral negotiations between two countries or regional negotiations, sometimes the fell, and you try to tak them to negotiate with all countries of the world. it is hard to pinpoint a reason why they failed, but the important thing is that these economies are more dynamic today than they were 10 or 15 years ago host: here are a couple of different headlines captured in the brazilian economy. this is from a local brazilian and financial news." below that, reuters. this one, from "the economist."

host: finally, brazil contel president crisis message -- do not spend. host: when you study -- guest: when you study international relations, every decade or so there is a rise of countries, in the 1970's, or 1980's, in japan, and afterwards there are newly- developed countries in south asia, and now brazil, russia, india,hina, and south africa. it is important take with a grain of salt that this rise is

not necsarily ivitable. it might be reversed depending on what happens in the global economy. in the early-1970's, brazil was growing at a pace of 10% a year in gdp, and then came along the oil crisis in the middle east, and basically everyone stopped talking about rising brazil. when you rd the papers, when you read official speeches i brazil in the early-1970's, you see that risen brazil, the term "emerging power" you begin to see that in a official rhetoric. 20 years after that, there was not talk about emerging brazil. it is always important to take it with a grain of salt. the situation is much better than it was 20 years ago for many reasons.

political stability, democracy, stabilization on the economic front, and the social the mention, in terms of poverty. that is a very important issue for priscilla and major in emerging economies. it is an overall sense -- and for major emerging economies. when you look at what is happening in the global economic crisis and problems in the united states economy and the european economy, it is a concern because all of these economies are linked. it is not a matter of competition between brazil and the united states or india and the united states. it is a more complex interaction. in the long run, if one of these major econoes toth down, it will effected the others. -- go down, it will effect the

others. host: good morning, rowdy. -- robbie. ller: i noticed your collar -- your guest skirted around the question of if a country had to hire 50 people, took in 100, and had to get rid of 50, how much would they pay both? guest: in brazil, the market operates by similar rules that operates here. it is eensive to hire legally because as i mentioned, there are many causes, many social causes and labor contracts in brazil that give workers a lot power. labor unions have considerable power as well. for example, for you to hire

someone, you pay a specific salary for them, and you have to pay the same amount in taxes and benefits for that person. there are contracts where you can have a temporary labor. i do not have the exact numbers of how much you have to pay, but there are challenges in brazil's labor market for you to make it more flexible. the problem is that part of the unemploymentas to do with the fact of the labor market in brazil is -- and out-dated. labor unions are concerned, and skeptical of legislation, and that will lead to unemployment, and more exploration of a labor by the private sector.

host: here is a question from twitter. guest: brazil is one of the major producers and exporters of sugar. today, brazil's sugar producers actually have two options -- either producing and exporting sugar, or ethanol. brazil's ethanol is different from u.s. ethanol. brazil's is made from sugar cane. most exports are ethanol and sugar, but for the past year or so, ethanol has been consumed in brazil. it buys everything it produces. but, sugar, brazil exports sugar to the whole world. i did not know if mexico is the main market. part of the european union is an

important market. if you look a trade relions with the world, brazil is very balanced -- 80% of mexico's trade is with the united states. brazil has 20% within united states, 20% with the european union, 20% with ina. it is very balanced. there is not a big issue. trade with one specific country is not an issue that causes concern with brazil, as it does in the case of mexico with the united states. although, china became brazil, the major trading partner, but that does bece an area of concern. brazil and mexico do not have a free-trade agreement. host: let's get a couple of comments from our twitter community.

host: let's take our last call on this topic of the brazilian economy and its relation to the u.s.. west know, andy jersey. good morning to helen. caller: i was wondering if the gentleman could comment on what entity decided to cut the world into economic blocs? all of these trade agreements have been disasters for our our economy. i think he would look into having brazil uses many resources to become indendent, and strong, and tout its own citizens. guest: the idea of free trade began in the united states.

the country that put in place multilateral institutions was the united states. it was an agreement that established not only the creation of the world bank, and the imf, the international monetary fund, but also an idea of an organization that would deal with trade in the sense of liberalizing trade all over the world. bad idea with a jen -- at that idea was a general agreement on iffs. if you want to find a source of free-trade ideology, much of it came -- from the united states, and the wto operates multi lateral. it involves every country in the world. every decade or so, they have the negotiation rounds.

if the negotiation rounds succeed, you have low tariffs all over, across the line. the when you look at the 1990's, you look at the map of the world, many free trade agreement's going on simultaneously in asia, europe. the idea comes from many places, but when each of these regional blocs expand, they start touching each other, basically, and with different formulas, and that creates tension. the sense that nafta is a different trade deal that south america and the european union. one of these blocks begin to talk to each other -- when these blocs began to talk to each

other, the differences show. but overall, countries benefit from free trade. american multinational organizations operating in brazil >> republican provincial candidate gary johnson will speak at the national press club today. this topic will been republicans and social issues. live coverage at 1:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. hos[captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] and there's more our website.

a former baltimore homicide detective and an investigative reporter take on the tough question, why do we kill? it's one of the books we are featuring this weekend on c- span2. including a book launch party for columnist and political commentator armstrong williams, and his latest book. and how unlikely allies got together to try to change our nation's school system. if the founder of court tv talks with palm a former assistant education secretary. to get the complete book tv schedule at the web site where you can also watch the programs. all week "washington journal has focused on the work of the fbi fishing this week with former fbi profiler gregg mccrary.

host: the national crime and punishment museum has five unique always looking at criminal intent, profiles, serial killers, victims, crime- prevention, and more. today we are inside the museum oppose the crime solving gallery if that you can learn all about parental technology, like fingerprinting, ballistics, and many more items. we are joined by a former fbi profiler. the topic is perhaps six and profiling as we wrap up this week's series looking inside the fbi. what is profiling? >> good morning. thanks for having me. the narrow definition of profiling is the description or characteristics and traits of an offender. it is a retrospective look at crime. the crime has already occurred. now we are examining that crime and the crime scene and all the evidence related to that, to try

to draw some logical inferences about who might have committed the crime. host: the difference between profiling andose styand retrospective profiling? >> prospective profiling is trying to identify common characteristics to predict who might commit to predict killer type of crime -- a particular type of crime, in other words who might be a terrorist. that's far more problematic because you'll get a lot more false positives and a lot more people who fit the profile who are really not a terrorist or a drug courier. host: what type of agency is doing that work? guest: tsa, homeland security. and the bureau is looking at this to see what we could

psychologically about that. the idea is to prevent this prior. big task the bureauta and other agencies are taking -- are looking into. retrospective profiling is we are looking at who committed this crime or this series of crimes. there is a methodology to this. it is a scientific approach we look at base rates of offending and we look at the etymology -- at victimology. it is a risk of oversimplifying this. you can think of it as what + = who.eam what and what elevated this victim's

risk to become the victim of a violent crime. we look at life styles and situational variables. if we can understand why a victim may have been at an elevated risk for becoming a victim of violence, many times that can focus on who. that basically is the idea. host: at what point in an investigation dozen fbi profiler come in? guest: at any phase during an investigation. the first phase is to determine whether or not a crime has been committed. sometimes that is easily. other times it is much more difficult. years ago you might recall twa flight 800 took off from kennedy and blew up. it took a long time to determine it was not a crime, but it was an accident. we call that equivocal deck investigation.

we have someone maybe has died under suspicious circumstances. maybe it's a homicide or suicide or natural causes. we get involved in the early stages and anywhere along the line. if a crime has been committed and we know it's a crime, then we are looking for who did it. sometimes it is to figure out what crime. many times the crime you think occurred has not occurred. for example, susan smith in south carolina years ago reported her two children had been carjacked. it turns out that's the guilder to children. a crime had been committed, and not the one reported. host: does the profile a stop at the profile of the offender? do you come up with a strategy to go after the possible offender? guest: that is an important interview of strategy. profiling is the glamorous thing that gets everyone's attention.

if they say we're looking for a white guy in its 30's or whatever, the proper response is that is interesting, but how do i catch the guy? that is really the right question. investigator's strategy really becomes very important to try to solve it. and there's the interrogations strategy that becomes important because we are trying to move forward, eliminates suspects, or identify suspects. so that becomes important. we also get involved down the road with the prosecution's strategy and sometimes in expert witness testimony. then comes up with this strategy. how to you make a profile? we are in the crime solving part of the gallery. how does forensics help you? ballistics? toxicology?

etc? forensics are fouational. we have depd on that. we are allowed to come back with results, the autopsy, for example, if it is homicide. those things become quickly important. how is the victim -- if we are talking, hypothetically, a homicide, how is the victim killed? were they stabbed, shot? how many times? so forth. obviously, any other evidence -- fingerprint evidence, dna. certainly blood or semen or anything that is important to us. that is foundationalor us, to understand what happened. we can move forward from there. host: gregg mccrary is our guest, worked at the bureau from 1969 to 1995. still involved in forensic science and profiling. we are at the national museum of crime and punishment as we wrap up this week pause to look at the fbi.

we showed all of you when we first started this the inside of the crimes of the gallery. i'm just curious, what is the forensic lab at quantico look like compared to where we are today? guest: certainly is not open to the public. [laughter] there are different things being done at the lab did the dna unit is its own unit. to avoid contamination and so forth, folks are not just going to stroll in and out of that. each section would have its own equipment, its own examiner's. they have their own scientific background, their own a degree of expertise. it would be sorted out that way. given the case, they may tap into any one of those areas of expertise. host: how many agents are profilers? guest: just a few. profiling -- there are, like,

three units in behaviorial analysis that are operational. those are the folks that do the work and offer operational support. altogether, with agentsnd support personnel, there is about 40 people involved in that totally. out of 14,000, that is not very many. when i first got involved in the mid-1980's, there were 12 of us at any one time in the operational wing. it has grown because demand has grown. host: that is our topic this morning, profiling and forensics. richard, independent in georgia. caller: yes, good morning. on profiling, i am a little confused with homeland security. recently, they put a message out that is maybe a white male, evangelical, pro-life, may be a member of the nra, pro-second

amendment. my idea of profiling is someone who belongs to a radical group or someone who goes around it to a university or school preaching revolution by violence, or someone who belongs to a radical organization, like the kkk. host: gregg mccrary. guest: thanks for that question, richd. what you're talking about is prospective profiling, someone who might commit a crime afterwards. the plans he made are good, because -- the points he made a good, because it points out how we can get false positives. what department of homeland security is concerned about is the lone wolf offender, someone who is out there -- we just had that in norway. i was inorway last week, not related to that mass murder, but on another case there, but where

the lone wolf killed 77 people based on some political beliefs and so forth. those are the things we are coerned about, as well as organized tourists like al qaeda and so forth. we are also concned about the lone wolf, a little more difficult to identify because they don't talk to anybody, they don't communicate. they develop these ideas a carry them out themselves. host: nikk is a democrat -- nicky is a democrat and a convicted. -- democrat in connecticut. caller: hi, gregg. does the fbi sometimes get their information wrong, with a wrongfully accuse someone of something? i will bring the case up, i don't know if you have anything to do with it or anything. [unintelligible] the that's t familiar? guest: does not sound familiar, but go ahead. caller: he was in chicago, and

basically they said he had something to do with the brothers -- they did a movie called "casino" tt had the same idea. his wife convicted him. he swore he did not do it, but basically, was doing 200 years, and john gotti followed with him later. there are not connected, i don't think -- host: are right -- caller: i would like to vindicate him, because they nt after hand, and maybe he got -- maybe he was responsible for, like, tax evasion and those thin that those guys do, but they got him for killing a mother, and one of the brothers is on trial -- killing a brother, and one of the brothers is on trial -- host: we will take your point about wrongful information. gut: certainly we can get

wrongful information. i was not on the ca so i do not want to comment on that . but the bureau of arrested an attorney in oregon, i believe, because ms. identification of a fingerprint. he was released. certainly, we are human beings and we try as best we can to get it right. human beings will make mistakes along the way. the importanthing is to correct those errors. host: 1 upper father goes to testify, how much weight do you -- have when a profiler goes to testify, and how much weight you have with your testimony? guest: profiling testimony per se is not allowed. it is too prejudicial. we do not get up and say, here is a profile of let serial killer, a child molester. that is not allowed, nor should it be allowed. we testifys to crime scene

analysis. we educate the jury about things they might not be familiar with, staging and those sorts of things. host: to stay off -- is there a formula as to how they do the job, steps that they go through? guest: there is a methodology. we start with a victimology -- who or what is the victim, why is that target being targed for some reason? like i say, we can understand that, then we can get a focus on where we go to find the offender. it is all very case-specific. it depends on the individual facts and things we have at each particular case. host: paul is an independent in georgia. paul, are you there? caller: who? host: in georgia. what is your question or comment? caller: i held -- yes, i am here. host: and we are listening to

you, go ahead. caller: my question to mr. gregg, how are you doing today? guest: doing well, thank you caller: i remove my shoes on the airport, my baggage is checked. how come all of these drugs, to this country? guest: how, drugs, into the country is that the question? -- how come drugs come into the country? is that the question? certainly we are trying to enforce the laws and keep those things out of here it we can se the problem when it goes and control in mexico. the extraordinary violence with a narcoterrorism. we're not perfect and crimes are committed every day, but we are doing our best to prevent those things and solve the ones that we can prevent. host: how does the fbi choose a special agent to be profiler?

there is not many of their special qualifications, even more criteria needed? guest: typically draw from the pool of agents. we want at least 10 years or more of investigative experience. i was in the field 15 years before i got involved. we want seasoned investigators. people ideally with advanced degrees, behavioral sciences or social sciences, or some science related -- host: psychology you are referring to? psychiatry? guest: absolutely did any of those behavioral sciences would be a good academic background. the important thing is to have a skilled investigators who knows how to apply these things to inveigations, because it is ultimately the investigative techniques or tools that is used to help solve crimes. host: how to be other agents and whitby road you profilers? -- how did the other agents in the beirut and you profilers?

-- in the bureau view profilers? guest: i had a guy bring it is dismembered corpse, and it was actually a grizzly bear attack. we get some harassment, but it is respected. host: timmy, democrat in west virginia. e you with us? you are on the air, sir. caller: my question relates to the prior caller. i wonder if they are doing and he refers profiling of law enforcement agencies -- doing reverse profiling of law- enforcement agencies. i had been watching tv quite often, i notice they and getting a lot of drug money -- they have been getting a lot of drug money. vice versa. in other states.

but they are not seizing drugs -- host: ok, we will leave it there. we got two phone call about drug crimes, versus terrorists, murders, serial killers. how does a poor father go about distinguishing between all of those three -- how does a profiler go about distinguishing between all of those three? guest: that combine these things. if we have a dead victim, and the person is a drug dealer, where does that dieguide the investigation? clearly to drug dealing, and retribution and some sort of for market dominance, some of drug dealer killing another drug dealer to eliminate competition. it works the same in all of these areas. victimology, all of these

things. host: we are in the national crime and punishment museum. you see ballistics and fingerprinting, and etc. how does ballistics help, for example? guest: if it is enough, we can only get back to a specific weapon, or we -- can at least -- we can link it back to a specific whether or at least rrow it down to the type of weapon we looking for. whether it is the blood around, the shell casing -- the bullet around, the shell casing. when the bullet is fired, there are groups inside the barrel. every what is unique. pon is unique. they can be compared to give us general characteristics, or if it is detailed enough, we can get to a specific web. host: what about fingerprinting?

guest: same thing. depending on the quality of the prce, they can be helpful. new techniques are being developed all the time in. it has been a around for awhile, but the technique of using super glue is technique that has not been about years ago, but it has been around for years. it can be effective. host: and a fingerprint database in west virginia is one of the largest in the world and holds the most fingerprints. guest: what we're doing is computerized testing. it would have taken hours or years, maybe, it to go card by card by card. depends on the individual examiner to make the call, but they -- that is very good. it was helpful in the d.c.

sniper case years ago, where we had a fingerprint in case they were bragging about in montgomery, alabama. sent in with the dna -- the same thing with the dna bit technology is very, very effective. host: how often do you hear from state and loc law enforcement saying, hey, i need help, a profile on this case? guest: keep in mind, murder is -- typically murder, even a serial murderer, is a local or state violation. we don't come in and take over case. we don't take over a serial murder case or investigation. we are there to support the authorities who have the primary jurisdiction, there to work

behind the scenes and provide any expertise we have to the investigators to hopefully move forwarand solve the case. host: what is a new technology or area of o forensic science that is groundbreaking for the fbi, for profilers in the fbi? guest: stuff we talked about continues to grow. with dna, this stuff came on the scene in the 1980's and we needed a big splotch of blood or semen before they could do any sort of analysis. now it is microscopic or sub- microscopic. ng things, you cannot even see it but it is a their bread is refining the techniques and being more discriminating in our ability to find these things. host: we are showing our viewers toxicology. what does that mean, and how does that help? guest: is used in an autopsy. i took the case last year.

a woman died of unexplained causes in cleveland, ohio. she got sick. when the investigation developed, nothing was determined to be the cause of death. there is the normal toxicology screen that was run and nothing came up. information developed that she may have been poisoned by potassium cyanide. we did a cycle -- we did it talks logical testing and we found out she had nine times the lethal amount of cyanide in her system. she had been poisoned. that led to her husband as the suspect. is a long story, but he is serving eight long prison sentence for murdering his wife. toxicology was key in the murder and manner of death. host: all this week on "washington journal," looking inside the fbi. our guest, gregg mccrary. alex is an independent in new york. caller: good morning, gre.

two quick questionsnd then i will hang up and listen to the answer. i wonder if you could comment on the fbi 's citize' academy, about that program. the second one is, what do rered profilers do as far as where they move on? thank you for being on, i will listen to the answers. guest: thank you, alex. two good questions did the fbi citizens' academy exists in every liaison field office. we worked for citizens, we represent their interests in the crimes, and we want them to get to know us. i would encourage anyo interested to call your local field office and inquire about that. we give tours of the bureau and we want toemystify as much of this as we can to help people understand better what we do so

they can help us. law enforcement, at the end of the day -- we are only as good as the citizens want us to be. depend on them to provide information and report crimes. it is important that we have a good relationship. host: how small the detail is too small? guest: no detail is too small. that could be the one you are looking for, absolutely. you have to evaluate each piece of evidence as it comes in. things that may not seem important first become a very important later as the investigation terms. -- turns. it is a revolving sort of relationship, symbiotic relationship, as investigation goes on. host: does the tness also get guest:? -- does the witness also get a profile? guest: notsually. we talk about doing crime scenes and francine analysis. we have to think of the mind at a crime scene.

our crime scene as a location that holds at least potential evidence of a crime. a victim's-certainly has evidence, as- victim's mind certainly has evidence. how you surge that crime scene? how do you do the cognitive crime searching. sameime, we want toe careful not to contaminate a crime scene with that interviewing or interrogation strategy. host: queens, new york. democratic caller. caller: you started when a j. edgar hoover was in charge of the fbi. i am wondering about the changes after his death affected your work. guest: very dramatic changes. i came in 1969 under hoover -- old school, if you will -- where this idea of profiling did not even exist. host: did that change under

hoover? guest: not really. he died in early 1970's, 1972, if i recall. but to be fair, to be honest, up profiling has been in existence ever since there was crime in an informal way because investigators show up and say, gee, who would do this? what we are trying to do is formalize this program, make a scientific, do research, and see how tight and discriminating a program which can develop. host: neil in fort lauderdale. caller: good morning, agent mccrary. i find what yo do to be not only fascinating but absolutely essential to our well-being. your many years of experience, it begs the question -- when evidence is grossly lacking or sparse at best, how many times have you relied upon at a

visceral, intuitive, gut feeling that lead you down the path to success? guest: well, this certainly is an issue that comes up. a lot of it depends on experience. when you look at a crime scene and you know something is wrong. how do you know is wrong? you have looked at thousands of crimes scenes. this one is staged. the perpetrator ds it to avoid detection. host: the person is organized. guest: we put them on a continuum from organized to disorganize. organized would be thoughtful, intellectual, trying to avoid apprehension, more evidence- conscious. the disorganized offender reacts stt up spontaneously. those crime scenes look more frenzied, and have a chaotic sense to them.

i guess the answer to the question is, to agree, that does play a role after you have looked at thousands of times scenes and you look at one and you know this is not right, something is wrong with this scene. you begin to drill down, and at the end of the date, hopefully, we find evidence we need. host: which type of criminal, it is organized or unorganized, is more of a threat, causes more concerned? guest: organize the offenders are better at avoiding apprehension so they can have a lot of corporate disorgani -- have a longer career. disorganized offenders, we can catch them more quickly. host: what are some examples of an organized criminal, one that would stick out in people's minds in history? guest: ted bundy is somebody

everybody has some familiarization with. he killed for a number of years and had numerous victims. he was very good overtime at avoiding detection and apprehension, actually escaping from prison at different points and so forth. that is the sort of offender who was more highly organized, more thoughtful, more devious, more creative, more intellectual, can pose more of a challenge. host: we are live this morning from the nationaluseum of common punishment. eric is a republican in illinois. caller: yes, hello. i was calling to ask mr. mccrary, how do you guys provocative individuals -- how do you guys profile corrupt individuals, such as in law enforcement, people who manipulate records?

my name is aaron, and i was born in illinois, and at two months ago, i got out profile report from the west virginia said saying that i am a born in texas. i am not born in texas. the police department has manipulated two of my it rests in 2008. how would i go about changing these, knowing that these are corrupt individuals anin the police department? i need some help. these are corrupt individuals. i am not born in texas. guest: the fbi does investigate police corruption and civil rights violations. what i would suggest is he contacted local fbi office and make his concerns known. that would be the best way for him to proceed at this point. host: let me dig down a little bit in the training of our

profiler. forensic pathology. what is it? guest: that is the study of the science of dead bodies, looking for causes of death. when i went through profiling training, i took courses in basic and advanced forensic pathology at the institute in bethesda, maryland. that does not make me a forensic pathologist by any stretch of the imagination, but it allows profilers to read autopsy reports with a better understanding of what is being discussed in their. what i would also add is that the bureau hasoutside experts, people on contract, a forensic pathologist on contract. when we have specific questions, as we had in a number of cases, i could pick up the phone and call one of these pathologists and say, here is what i am reading, i am not understanding this, is this what they mean? sometimes we get the contract pathologist and a touch with the pathologist who did the exam. host: a total of 400 hours

looking at behavioral-type sizes, psychology, psychiatry. how much time did you spend a studying psychology and psychiatry? guest: again, i have a master's degree in psychological services. that component, the academic component. what we are looking at at the bureau is how it psychopathology is expressed in cres and crimes scenes. that is what we want to look at. that is a unique area. you can get a ph.d. in psychology, a forensic psychology, and never see a crime scene or look at it. what we're doing is taking what we know about mental disorder, mental illness, and looking at how that manifests itlf in criminal behavior. host: jack is a democrat montana. caller: yes, hi. i heard you mention monna, i was wondering if you could tell the audience about the fact that

the field office in butte, montana, was noted to be the worst assignment for an fbi agent, and people were sent there to be punished. is that right? host: how you know that? caller: newspaper articles have been written in the local press. guest: there is some truth and falsehood to that, jack. host: [laughter] guest:he joke in the hoover days is that if you screwed up, you would get transferred to butte. some folks love butte. a good friend of mine is from the area. host: what did he do to get back there? guest: he got an office transfer so he wanted to go there. there are obviously disciplinary

procedures for agencies whose good things out. -- it was sort -- for agent who screw things up. it was sort of a standing joke back and the days, that if you screwed things up, you end up in butte. salaries.filers' taxpayers are paying for the bureau. how salaries changed over the years? guest: you can go to the website and look at the scale. field agents top off at 13, and then you go up to 14. most are 14. whater that salary is today -- host is that the highest, gs1 guest: yes, if you stay as a profiling. if you state administratively, you get salary increases. the profiler, the title would be supervisory special agent, a

grade 14. host: gregg mccrary is the author of a book, "unknown darkness." diane is a republican in minnesota. caller: thank you. thank you for having all this week all year discussions on what the fbi does. i am curious to find out, because we have been to so many major cities and we have had the opportunity to see what major cities look like, i'm wondering how you could triple the amount fbi, cia employees. each city we go to, including minneapolis, it seems like they are destroyed, but destroyed by gangs. why not spend more time -- i

guess my question is -- host: diane,e will take your question about field offices. guest: certainly any field office with a gang problem has a gang task force but the local agency would be responsible. that is an area we have an interest in. their task forceand a place to do with that. granted, it is like other crime problems. we have not solved it totally. it still exists, but it certainly is not being ignored. host: are profilers in all 56 field offices -- -- of them guest: what we have in every field of this is at least e isrdinator -- f ielield office at least one crdinator. some training, and knows what we need, what we want.

they can call the field office and say we need a profile. they know the materials we need to look at and so forth. we have the middle man, if you will, sometimes re than one in the field, trained as coordinators and can coordinate with local authorities. we do go out. sometimes they come out to us and it is an ongoing case, and we triage these -- if it is an on going serial murder or rape case and where there is a realistic threat of harm, many times we go out. this become our no. 1 priority, to stop the violence as quickly as we can. if it is an old cold case, homicide from 10 years ago, we will look at, but not today. host: triage -- what you mean by that? guest: sort of like medical triage, the most dramatic casualties a first.

whose life is really hanging in the balance? the ones that can hang on for awhile, we will get to later. we look at the ones with the most accident circumstances that need the quickest response -- most exigent circumstances that the quickest response. host: georgetown, massachusetts, independent. caller: hello? host: we are listening, ben. go ahead. caller: i'm wondering if you apply your expertise -- i know you are not in the fbi at the time -- during the 9/11 attacks. i spent some time looking into it and the forensic evidence of it. you can even look, if you were to do it toxicology report on these people dying from this abnormal lung disease, i think what you find inside the lungs are these nano-size particles of

dust that can only be manufactured at a highly controlled facility. i guess -- sorry, i'm just a little nervous, it is kind of a big issue -- host: are you wondering if he has looked into this? caller: well, personally, it is my understanding that the fbi was involved in the 9/11 theestigation, but fema had lead on this, which seemed odd to me to begin with, because they are under direct control of the president -- host: ok, all right, we will take it from there. let's talk about the investigation into fem -- tell us what you now. guest: first of all, i was not involved in the 9/11 investigation -- host: right, right, right. guest: the fbi would have the lead it is a terrorist attack,

said the fbi would have lead jurisdiction - host: because it is domestic. guest: even overseas, when there are attacks on embassies overseas, at the bureau's investigative and jurisdiction and we fly -- the bureau has instigated the jurdiction and we fight over i think where he was going with this is that it is something that could be manufactured in labs. we still have a lot of conspiracy theories about the 9/11 attacks, that it was an inside job good people believe what they want to believe, but i think the evidence shows that this was done by the terrorists who hijacked those airplanes. i don't know any evidence of any sort of particle -- the only thing i could think of is that right after 9/11, the anthrax attacks. those were inhalational deaths of thenthrax particles that were suspended in white powder and all of that. that is separate from the

9/11 attacks. host: what has been difficult in your career, the most difficult of all to put together, and why? -- most typical profile to put together, and why? -- most difficult profile to put together, and why? guest: there was a serial murder case where the murderer was killing in europe and the united states. if you say it is fiction, people are not going to believe it, but this was a member of the media who was covering his own murders for the media. he was reporting on it, running for the newspaper, going on tv and doing interviews, vering his own murders, meanwhile going out and killing of these women and reporting on it, into giving detectives and the people in charge of the -- interviewing detectives and the people in

charge of the investigation. it was an intriguing case. host: did your profile include that aspect? guest: i was testify in austria about this trial over there. he went into los angeles to kill people. this is why criminals don't think like you and i think, necessarily. if he went into los angeles to kill, would you avoid at all costs? probably it the police department you would not want them to kn you are in town to kill people. this guy, the narcissism that there, the first thing he does is go to the lapd and introduce himself as a foreign journalist. they give him a ride-along and shows him with the prostitutes work. he comes back and tells them while he is in town. -- and kills them while he is in town.

host: george is an independent in missouri. caller: the fbi -- do they study cyber-crime? that is miscible question -- my simple question -- host: earlier this week, you and others may be interested, we will respond to cyber-threats -- we focused on cyber-threats -- yesterday, actually, on "washington journal." they can all be found on c- span.org. guest: i would defer to the program, but that is certainly something profilers are looking at. you read the newspaper and the fbi does make arrests on the attacking -- these hacking

cases and so forth. host: trent, dependent in st. paul, minnesota. caller: good morning. hello? st: we are listening. caller: i want to ask the gentleman, how muchime does the fbi have to investigate corruption within the department of justice? guest: well, again, bu certainly that would be something the bureau would be interested in, and corruption within the department of justice itself. we have as much time as we needed to do that, depending upon the nature of the allegation and a little -- nature of the allegation and the validity of the allegation. i am sure we would not be opposed to doing -- politics would not get involved at all. it would be a professional investigation into that. host: what is you training li for interrogation techniques? guest: interview at an

interrogation, the whole idea is to elicit the truth from an individual. it can be dicier than you might think initially, because of the psychological issues many times. who is the person we are interviewing? other psychological issues that come to bear? it could be mental illness, personality dirders. all that has to be evaluated when you are constructing and shaping an interview or interrogation strategy. the basic thing, like i say, think of it as a crime scene that we want to search very carefully. we want to be sure we don't contaminate it. don't ask any leading questions. i will not ask you if you saw a red car. i will say, "tell me what you saw," because i don't want to give you the idea that there was a red car involved in this thing. it can be more nuanced, dealing with particular mental issues of the person you are interrogating.

host: so what kind of training do you go through? guest: it takes practice, not something you can jt learn in a classroom. being a field agent, 10 years or more of experience, you have conducted hundreds of thousands of interviews and you have an idea of how it goes. that gives you credibility when you go out to interview detectives did you have to have something more than just academic training. you have got to have a real-life experience doing that to get credible advice. host: on the republican line -- dulce, is that your name? -- in california. caller: yes. thank you for taking my question bridge for the last five years, i worked with severely disorganized and mentally ill people who committed serious crimes. at the same time, i get people who are coming out of prison who look like they are severely disorganized in the mental

health, but what we come to see is that they have been on drugs for several years. once they a clean up, what happens is that we realize, ok, this is probably drug-induced psychosis. i want to know, is there a way for you to tell in the crime scene between somebody who is severely ill or somebody who is on drugs, who looked like they are severely mentally ill? guest: the short answer is no. it will be a disorganized crime scene and whether it is a result of mental illness or a drug- induced issue. will he the same characteristics. it will be frenzied, look chaotic. that is one of the things we say, there could be contribute in factors. youth could be a contributing factor, mental illness, drug

abuse. all those things by themselves or in combination with one another can have a disorganized crime scene. host: i wonder how the bureau agents iview policymakers in washington, d.c., the guys who write the checks and give the resources you need. guest: probably not surprising to sehear that we never get the resources we need. truthfully, i am not with the fbi now, but a lot of good liaison goes between headquarters and the folks on the hilwho make decisions, and we try to explain what we're doing, why we are doing it, and why we need support on this. it is a continuing -- i would not say battle, but discussion that goes on. host: how have you seen the bureau change? guest: it has changed

dramatically. the biggest sea change after 9/11, the shift in to terrorism was a big shift. it was part of what we have done before, but there was a big sea change it around and. everything has chaed. no femalent in, a agents. it was me of a paramilitary thing. two guys to a locker, eight guys to a rm. we will b -- we would be shuttled around in these trucks. host: more like you were in the military. guest: now it is more like a college campus, and we have a female agents, and it is great. it has changed dramatically over the years, far for the better. host: you are still involved in profiling. what do you do? guest: i think it was alex who asked before -- i am a retired

now, but i still do work in ime cases, the testimony in criminal cases, prosecution and defense cases -- depends on teh he facts -- and i teach part- time at a couple of universities. i will be doing in law enforcement presentation later this month, presentations for different agencies. i will be talking to the canadian association of psychiatry and the law later this year. still involved in crime and crime scene analysis and providing expert testimony in cases. host: gregg mccrary, former fbi profiler, 1969 to 1995, author of a book, "unknown darkness." eileen is joining us, connecticut, independent. caller: i am wondering about the software that bill and linda hamilton had stolen by the

justice departmentand that edwin meese and earl bryan were linked to, and the judge concluded that indeed, the federal government had stolen their proprietary software and remade it to have a back door in it. he gave them my judgment, and the federal government has never paid that judgment. i'm wondering where you stand on that, since you deal in criminal activity and investigate it. guest: agai don't know anything about that particular case, so i really don't want to comment on the case i am not familiar with. it would just be wrong for me to do that. sorry i cannot answer t question, but i just don't know this is a mix of the case and it would be wrong for me to speculate as to what that might be. host: does hollywood get it right? you see a lot of sho -- guest: dramatic shows, fun

things to watch. "criminal minds" is a popular show. the bottom line is no. we don't fly around on a private jets like the guys on "criminal minds" do. a guy asked me, "to you watch ' criminal minds'? you kept to the jet plane hit in fro-- hidden from me." host: [laughter] guest: we don't get an iss dots or fly on private jets. we solve crimes. -- we don't get in shootouts are fly on private jets. we solve crimes. local and state police -- we are just a resource for them to use. host: would surprise -- what

would surprise you is about -- surprise viewers about the work? ness,: the tedious reading a report after report after report. i was in ohio, 6000 pages of documents to work through. the tediousness is what people might be surprised about. host: profiling, is that tedious work? guest: oh, yes, you have to review all these documents before you can offer any sort of opinion. you do not want to jump out and get ahead of yourself and start offering opinions when you have not really seen all the evidence. it takes a lot of time sometimes. host: gregg mccrary, i want to

>> coming up in about 45 minutes, we will have republican presidential candidate gary johnson speaking at the national press club. the topic is republicans and social issues. live coverage at 1:00 p.m. eastern. if you go to our campaign 2012 website, you will see a twitter message that says "deere republican party, talk economics, not social issues." there is a link that says the republican party should be leading the economic discussion with a presentation of new ideas instead of sidestepping the problem to turn attention toward social issues and morality. you will find that on our campaign 2012 web site, along with stories by political

reporters and recent video from the candidates. >> here is the key, and erskine bowles and i were stunned -- the lot of social security is so clear that if the schedules cannot be paid, and that is a clear word, they will get only the payable benefit. that might sound like a garbage, but that is a real, the cut- rancher, because that will hit 2037. in last may, there was less going in, then coming out you get to this point, and you'll get payable benefits, and not scheduled benefits, and you can sue, and it will not do you a list of good. that is sensible legal fee. we went to the aarp, and we said we think you ought to help. there are 38 million people

bound together by a love of airline discounts, and insurance discounts, and their magazine has really picked up. it is a thriller. "sex over 50" is the cover, and now they are into 60, 70, and 80. [laughter] the advertisements are about how to get something, and not pay for it. advertisements on sexual dysfunction. read the aarp magazine. it is a marketing instrument. are there any patriots in here i said to the top guy, or just marketeers? that is a harsh statement, and i intended it to be just that. they have not helped one bit. they have modest changes to suggest, and we're still waiting

to hear them. >> watch more of this event online at the c-span video library. >> according to a national survey on public attitudes and opinions of the american public schools, and 91% of americans support internet access in the classroom. bob wise and other policymakers discuss the findings and digital learned. the gallup poll co. and george washington university hosted this 40 minute event. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] i want to think pdk international for this. it is a time when schools are

returning, congress will be returning, and governments are preparing budgets. important decisions will have to be made. i am excited -- sari governor bush is not able to be here. he created the council, and the digital learning now initiative is his initiative. from what i've learned from this poll is that the 10 elements of a high-quality digital learning system that 100 representatives of the digital learning council but governor bush convened, and i cochaired, and tom was such a part of, and announced in december, that those 10 elements that are designed to be a road map are essentially borne out in the public attitudes expressed in this poll.

taken in its entirety, not just the digital and inception, but in higher education, post- secondary education, and teacher effectiveness, they all say the same thing -- the public understands and is willing to move forward on blended learning. when we think of digital learning, or what is sometimes called online learning, or computer learning, there are two images. one is a child or 100 children in a gym with laptops up. how does that make you feel? some say opportunity. or, is there a situation where there is an effective teacher in a classroom, and now you have the best content coming digitally? that is blended learning.

so, what does paul confirmed is that this public -- poll confirmed is that the public understands the need for blend learning. half of the respondents said they are concerned they will not get effected teachers in the classrooms because of budget shortfalls. what is one approach? blend learning, so you get the best content digitally, as well as having teachers helping to guide and facilitate that learning process. another one is that when presented -- first of all, i think it is incredible that 91% of the population overall, and 95% of parents, up from 80% in 1996, understand, support, and approve of internet access in the classroom and think it is important. also important is a statement of blended learning when the

question was posed, would you want a more effective teacher -- this one is tricky. would you want a more effective teacher with digital learning, or a less effective teacher, but personally in the classroom. the majority said the less effective teacher. let me suggest that is a false choice. why not the best of both. you truly get that with digital learning. the one suggestion i would make for future polls, and i am happy so much of this was devoted to digital learning, it is a statement as to how far it has advanced, but i would look at it from a more blinded learning approach. -- blended approach. i will turn it over to time tom,

but first i would note this poll is critically important to policymakers right now. andnow anthony carnevale jamie merisotis will be talking about this, but as we deal for a demand for a skilled workforce, and a rapidly changing, and not very good budget climate, all of this is about how we can be more effective and improved student outcomes, and teacher performance. what this poll suggests is that with digital learning, the public believes they want effective teaching, and high student outcomes, and they can have both. tom? >> i wanted to say thank you to pdk international, and gallup.

i want to thank you, governor. you were among our best education governors, and you have been a real champion on the dropout crisis in america. the way you have connected a passion for the crisis with the opportunity around digital learned i really appreciate. -- digital learning, i really appreciate. i want to talk about a mistake from this poll. a few minutes ago i was given a headline that said "america does not support online learning" and were quotinghey the survey. >> 91% seems to be pretty good. >> here is the mistake. there was one question about will digital learning allow kids to spend less time at school.

parents were split, or slightly negative on that notion of kids spending more time at home. [laughter] >> then the report said maybe parents and do not support digital learning. i think parents just really appreciate the custodial aspect of school, right? [laughter] >> as the governor said, parents and teachers realize there is this great opportunity to combine the best of learning online and at school to create a longer day, a longer here, not a shorter day, and a shorter year. i think that was something that has been taken and correctly, but overall, as you stated, -- incorrectly, but overall, as you stated, i found it striking that 91% of people connected to the

internet with high-quality learning, and about that same percentage connected digital learning with college and career preparation. i think those are two thoughtful insights that almost all of the respondents made. >> so, now, we have an opportunity for your questions on digital learning, or the other issues we have in the pdk international gallup poll. we have two individuals with microphones. there is always the challenge of the first one who will step up and ask the question. let's see if we have a hand up. we will ask that you introduce yourself, tell us where you're from. anybody?

>> bob and i are happy to keep talking. [laughter] >> this is our favorite subject. >> i think there is a gentleman here. >> we have somebody up here? >> this is to break the ice. >> not to be a naysayer, but recent research in north carolina suggest that as the internet spreads across the landscape, it is actually a factor in driving an increase in the achievement gap, and the speculative explanation for that was that they did not happen -- they did not have evidence, but the speculation was that among low income families, with less of a custodial ability, are not able to watch their children and monitor internet use. as high-speed internet swept across the north carolina

landscape, the site of the study, they sought a corresponding widening of the achievement gap between low and high-income. i wonder how you would respond. >> psychology is a powerful thing, and i think it can exacerbate good and bad things. it will make good parents better, and i am not certain it will close the achievement gap, because it can do two things -- it can with the floor, but it can also blow away the ceiling. i am optimistic about the potential for technology to customize learning, which means more learning per hour, but also to equalize learning. what we will see happen nation- wide over the next four years as we begin to implement online assessments in almost every state, is that states and districts are going to make provisions for universal access,

high-access environments. so, we will do a better job of making sure that every student is connected to the internet, as 91% of the respondents said was important. as we make sure that all kids have 24/7, 365, access, and as as technologies are incorporated into a long day, blond year, and become a fifth part of the student could go educational experience, i think we have an opportunity in low-income neighborhoods particularly to shift a significant portion of that time to productive learning. i am actually optimistic that over the next few years, relatively quickly, that we can provide much better access for all students, but particularly low-income students, and what that will do is cause a

relatively rapid increase in the percentage of students preparing for college and careers. >> let me also just note that i would go to north carolina, and ticket to independence has cooled in charlotte, where 63 students started -- and take you to independence high school in charlotte, and 63 students were up to proficiency in reading and math, or a school district where they have not done emersion and over half have free and reduced lunch, and they have seen similar results. my belief is that there are positive examples where digital learning has had an impact, but it has not happened on a blended basis were there is the structure helping to guide that learning process, so the students, whatever their income or achievement level is, is

dealing with the content coming in. >> let me use rocket ship as an example. they are an elementary network in california. they have learned -- they have used a learning lab to ed two hours to the day. it is a longer day -- two -- add two hours to the day. is a longer day. >> that is also something borne out in this poll. the public clearly sees this as being a game changer for rural areas, and for areas that have trouble getting access to high- quality content and teachers. particularly in certain subject areas. >> yes, sir. >> i am with committees for teaching excellence. what are some of the strategy is

on an aging parents in these new technologies so that they can become partners as the technology is rolled out, but also in the efficacy of if it is working? i am finding the parents are not engaged. is not necessarily that they are against technology, but they are not a part of the process. what strategy d.c. for training them -- what strategy do you see for training them together? >> parents need to be clearly involved from the get-go. one way you do that, particularly if you are working with a blended learning model is made that school a learning center beyond the 7.5 hour school day. the parents now have access to that, and in many homes, and this might have been part of the previous gentleman's, but in many homes if you do not have

the internet access on a regular basis, now you make the school learning center for the parents as well as the students. you are right. the parents need to be brought in. that is clear in this call. there is a little uncertainty among some parts of the population. >> i will echo a couple of points the governor made. you hear us advocating for a long day, long year, a rich, school-based experience. i would agree with your comment that we generally have not done enough to engage parents, and bring in these new tools home has a lot of potential, -- bringing these new tools home, has a lot of potential, but it will require parents to be involved and contribute. we will have to build the capacity. i appreciate the comment. >> thank you.

yes, sir. >> the afternoon. i'm from the george washington university. i often hear people talk about how there is such a breath of information on the internet, and how you deal with quality and finding the right materials. does the survey address this in any way, or do you have hands for us to find a particular way to the right quality information? >> that is a fantastic question. one decade ago, we passed this profound threshold of human existence where anybody with broadband can learn almost anything for free or cheap. that is a profound threshold in the human experience. just in 2009 we passed this inflection point with devices sold, and cloud-based services, and applications downloaded -- serious inflection points that

mean life on this planet is quite different, and we are trying this figure out what that means for ourselves, but we are here today. out what it means for our schools. -- figuring out what it means for our schools. i do not think we have made much progress answering your question how to sort and synthesize. sometimes it feels like our kids are better at it than we are. in the precise area you are describing is where we will see the most important breakthroughs of the next decade, and very specifically, we will see breakthroughs in search, technology, monitoring and data mining, so, watching behavior patterns, learning about profiles, and using that data to drive a smart recommendation

engine. so, as kids make the shift to personal, digital learning, one of the profound things that is not often discussed is that almost all of those learning experiences are going to have to be rich with assessment data, and a lot of behavioral data that tells us about engagement, and the sorts of experiences that are most productive for certain kinds of kids. when we turn that data into a smart recommendation engine, and face it back at the world, we will become much better, before the end of the decade, at doing what you suggested, and making sense of a sequence of learning experiences. the governor has talked about blended learning. my ideal picture is a smart play list, tailored to each student, based on this recommendation engine, that is helping to

build knowledge and skills, and then they really rich, teamed- based, community-based set of projects that engage students in authentic ways and produce authentic work products. the mixture of those really represents the best potential that we can bring together for kids. >> quality was not addressed in this poll, but i think it is one of the seminal issues. as we move into this area where much more access is available, who determines what it is? what we have to avoid is scrapping on the current text book approval process onto data quality and content process. by the same token that you cannot hand every child a laptop and say we have a digital

strategy, what is the total environment you have created to work in? the issue of quality, once again, to not to simply judge it by what we have done in the last 100 years. >> thank you. question down here? >> my name is martin apple, from the council of scientific society presidents. if you were to picture in the future, or presently, what would be the best outcomes, or measures of outcomes that you could put forward, realizing the become the drivers of what happens when you do that? how much would you focus on creative ideas? how much would you focus on problem solving, critical thinking? what would be the outcome as you would really try to measure to drive the system forward in the best possible way? >> set is a great question.

>> and you are giving it rights to me. >> yes. it was so good, i need a minute to think. >> those are what i would call the equal learning skills. it is joining the core content knowledge that is creating the ability to self-correct learning. it is developing a new set of performance assessments, some of which is in a formative stage, in the development of the common core standards, which 44 states and the district of columbia have adopted. the states that have it have all moved to a college or career- ready standard. those only begin to try and reach that. so, being able to measure the

performance -- i think you are much better able to measure the performance digitally, because now you have adaptive technology, and immediately you have feedback for the teacher, and it is also presenting a picture of where the student is. it also commits you to collaborating, whether it is with students across the classroom, the country, or the world. it commits you to enter acting, and working with teams. i believe -- interacting, and working with teams. i believe the process can prove the assessments are under way, but we are not there. >> that is a great answer. [laughter] >> over here? >> i am from xavier university in cincinnati. the smart recommendation engine that you spoke about, tom, would

that not be a good teacher that could evaluate the student and make a recommendation to which digital resources they should choose? what would shane say if he was a student today, 20 years or 30 years from now if someone would ask him who was the best teacher? would he say it was the ipad? i think that we really need to halt the population understand this -- help the population understand this -- the people that interact with the students, as they need to be sensitive and responsive to student needs from a digital point of view, and also there motivational state and family state and other complexities

they're involved in. >> let me give you a snapshot of school of one, a project in new york city, as it gives a glimpse of what this model looks like. they introduced the term "buy list" into my thinking of what the future looks like -- play list" into my thinking about the future looks like. when the teachers come in, the learning experience is aided by the engine that has been churning over night. i can apply professional judgment to the recommendation because i have also noticed some things about the social and emotional well-being of some of the kids. as a result, i will add a social

judgment to the micro-schedule of my kids. it is informed judgment that drives the schedule. here is another example of the magic of dynamic scheduling. most students spend part of their week in small group to rain at school of one, with a teacher -- tutoring at school of one with a teacher. the teacher prepares all lawson knowing that every student is prepared -- a lesson, knowing that every student is prepared for that lesson on that day. that is magic when you compare it to the impossible task that we put in front of teachers when you put 30 students each at different levels, and you compare that to teach six kids

all prepared to learn that lesson on that day, that is magic. if we can create more situations where experts can execute their craft thoughtfully, have had a high opportunity to be successful, and work with other professionals, that is magic. another example is a rocket ship. they do a pretty good job of building basic skills. what the teachers would say is that it allows them to spend more time in class on critical thinking, on more rich, deeper learning, like governor bob wise talked about. i think we are both optimistic about putting powerful tools in the hands of learning professionals, and creating a set of learning conditions that

are far more positive in places where they could be far more productive. >> let me take this to a different place. you are correct. one statistic -- the state of georgia, and this could be any state. 440 high schools. we are not going to have the highly-certified, content teachers in every classroom. what we can have is an effective teacher who with digital content and learning is able to guide and facilitate. incidentally, i am not a teacher, but to those of you that are in the profession, i think that not having to be solely-responsible for every day, the lesson plan, but --

de's lesson plan, but now you are able to spend time with the individual learning needs of every child. now, i can spend some time with each of these students, and i have a data system. nothing is taken away from the traditional role of teacher from socrates on. i think it is amplified. that comes out loud and clear. it is not either or. it is high-tech, requiring high-teach. indeed good teaching for the technology to be effective, -- you need good teaching for the technology to be effective, too. >> up here, in the second row. microphone? here we go, grit. thank you. >> my name is connie spinner.

we are a fairly new entity, and we are looking at using the whole array. this conversation has caused me to think about scale and gap. we are still dealing with a digital divide that is growing every day between four and minorities, and middle-class. at the same -- form and minorities, and middle class. at the same time things are shifting markedly, and new things are being learned that have the potential to make that gap even larger. where are the incidents where we are taking what we learned, and using it to close the gap at the same time as promoting the new? i am concerned we are learning

some fantastic lessons about what we ought to be doing to enrich the learning experience, but we have not redefined what it means to teach, and i think that if nothing else this whole a ray of technology is redefining it without having the public policy conversation. i would just like your reaction. >> i would start by saying there is no excuse for the digital divide. >> there might not be an excuse, but it exists. >> it does, but it is time for state and district leaders to put a flag in the ground and say after next august every student in our care what 24, 365 access, and began a plan to make that happen. you can do that now by shifting to online assessment, and, and instructional materials.

you could also probably improve the quality of access to professional development. it takes a planned shift from print to digital, and you have to think differently about instructional materials, how you do assessments, and what your staffing looks like. it is complicated enough that you might have to break that shift into two or three phases. the fact that the total cost of ownership has dropped below 200 dollars per year per student, makes it less expensive than buying a backpack full of books. you can now make the financial case to make the shift, and we have tried to make the case that if you are thoughtful, you can create a longer day, a longer year, and a better working

environment for teachers and more support systems for kids. so, we can, in the next few years, do away with the digital divide, but it will take courage and thoughtful leadership, state-by-state, and city-by-city to make it happen. >> my wife and i bought an e- reader last year for $300. today it is $114. three years ago we could not have this discussion based on the prices. if i could ask you a rhetorical question -- i am assuming that at almost -- as almost every community college does, you have a high remediation rate. in technology, with digital

application, it seems to me you can move students through remediation at the rate they're able to progress rather than having them in class for a fixed amount of time, so they can get where they need to be in math in a month, and not have to sit and wait in a class with a traditional instructor, but they can move ahead. the stephen that needs more time -- when i am suggesting is that with technology in the community college system and the k-12 system, we have a much better ability to move students i had at the rate that they can advance, and then more quickly get them to where now you are able to do what you want to do to move them up to the level they came to that community college for. >> you are absolutely right, and we are booking at this two ways.

we all started immediately as an achieving the dream community college. roughly 80% of our class's -- students are taking the development of class's. there is a group that said nobody should enter meeting but the mental education, given the hard statistics, -- developmental education, and given the hard statistics. what are we doing them to get them ready before they get there? you have to deal with that. our biggest challenge is not our students, or their readiness, it is our teachers, our instructors, and they are reluctant to look at the new roles they have to play, and the skills, because we have not had a public policy conversation about this changing role that is emerging and shifting every day as a result of the kind of tools that are being made available. >> do you want to respond to that? >> we agree. [laughter]

>> digital learning benefits students, teachers, but by the same token we need learning experiences for both, and i did not mean to put you on the spot, but it also calls on colleges of teacher education and other teacher preparation programs. i also see digital learning as extremely powerful in professionals the element. it is more of a permanent professional enhancement, because now teachers will be able to do that enhancement with their peers, as opposed to what some of you call drive-by ed. i always loved the opening day of school because 300 teachers were jammed into a hot jim. i got to speak to them. to me, this is about quality

learning experiences for students and teachers. i will end as i began. it is about students and teachers, and both have an integral role in bringing them together, and getting the maximum learning outcomes. >> a question from over here? >> allan richmond, from prince george's community college. we see a lot more work toward blended education with technology in the k-12 environment, but i am interested in thoughts or feedback on recent legislation forced upon higher education to really define our credit hour, and it seemed like there was all look to define it as sage on the stage, where integrated blending techniques might not count toward our requirement for

construction, which sounded like a push to have direct instruction by legislature. also, to have a tax on online instruction. how do we balance this between the desire that we want to have high-quality, as people recognize the need for technology, but there is still an attack on its legitimacy in higher education particularly. there is a different perception with higher education and elementary. >> you are way ahead of us. you heard governor bob wise talk about governor bush, but i want to underscore the all role he has played -- role he has played. my sense is legislatures do not

have a road map. i think they need a top-10 road map, and i describe the data quality, and they said they have to be done in 100 days with the new governors coming in in the fall. the insight, the speed, and the urgency that he brought to this task of trying to lay out a policy framework to avoid the really dumb policies if you are describing -- this is not thoughtful public policy. [laughter] >> is standing in the way of everything we have described here as possible. we see a lot of it in k-12. if you look at the website, digitallearningnow.com, you will find redundant language, and why is that? each of those elements go after stupid barriers that exist that try to stop learning at a county

boundary, a district boundary, whereas the governor said, take a textbook adoption process and put it on the digital content, or seat time, right? it is an effort to create a policy that is thoughtful about this shift going forward. we might very well need another one for community colleges, or to extend that, to instead of being k-12, it ought to be k-14, so we are more thoughtful, but it is the leadership of these two governors that are trying to create a framework for this revolution. that is why i think the work is so terribly important. we appreciate your concerns, and we are certainly working hard in k-12 to make this happen, and

would certainly lend support. >> i'm interested in your perspective. in k-12, we have been signed higher education has this knocked down. i am curious. i know many of you have bought an ipad, or something similar. how many of you when you bought your device ask the salesperson that you wanted a device that was worked on for exactly 180 days? i doubt it. you probably test the performance, how many applications -- why is it we measure children for their credit? i understand 25 years ago, why is it we measure children by whether or not it has been 180 days in class? i think what technology permits

us to do is much better at assessing learning for students so they can advance at their pace. this will be one of the leading issues, and i hope the next poll tests some of the policies. if the state you are again requires that only an online certified teacher can be certified in that state, it lets us, does it not? that to me is like ordering a book online from barnes and noble, but i have to go to the local bookstore to pick it up. what are the policies that no longer apply, and that we would not tolerate in our own lives as them unnecessary frustration for our ability to be enriched by the internet, but we are the nine to our students? >> we are yet the city tell -- we are denying to our students? >> we are at the end of our

program. please join me in st. thank you to our panelists. >> the u.s. house is about to come in for a pro forma segment. after that, we will take it to the national press club with republican we go to that live on c-span. [captioning made possible by the national captioning institute, inc., in cooperation with the united states house of representatives. any use of the closed-captioned coverage of the house proceedings for political or commercial purposes is expressly prohibited by the u.s. house of representatives.] the speaker pro tempore: the house will be in order. the chair lays before the house a communication from the speaker. the clerk: the speaker's room, washington, d.c.,, august 19, 2011, i hereby appoint mr.

mulvaney as speaker pro tempore signed john boehner, speaker, house of representatives. the speaker pro tempore: the house will be offered by the guest chaplain from bell view, washington. the chaplain: holy and gracious god, before you we humbly serve and seek what is best and what makes for compassion nature and reasoned leadership. we are blessed with the gift of differences that together and that in unity, makes us whole. enable us to reconcile differences when at times such gifts separate us. guide us toward the reconciliation that produces effective decisions that builds engaged citizens and that makes of us good neighbors to others less fortunate. these times call for our

listening to each other with our minds and hearts as one neighbor seeks what is best for another. you have shown us, o, god, what is god, to love justice, seek kindness and walk humbly with your strength made manifest among, between and within us. may god thus be seen may we thus be led, may we thus be known. amen the speaker pro tempore: pursuant to section 5 of house resolution number 3775, the journal of the last day's proceedings is approved. and the chair will now lead the house in the pledge of allegiance. i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

the speaker pro tempore: pursuant to section 4 of house resolution number 375, the legislative business is not dispensed with on this day. the chair lays before the house a communication from mr. hunter. the clerk: the honorable, the speaker, house of representatives, sir, this is to notify you firmly pursuant to rule 8 of the rules of the house of representatives that i have been served with a subpoena for production of business records issued by the superior court of california, county of san diego. after consultation with the office of general counsel, i have determined that compliance with the subpoena is inconsistent with the privileges and rights of the house. signed sincerely, duncan d. hunter, member of congress. the speaker pro tempore: the chair lays before the house a message from karen haas, the clerk of the house. the clerk: the honorable, the speaker, house of representatives, sir, pursuant to the permission granted in clause 2-h of rule 2 of the rules of the house of

representatives, i have the honor to transmit a sealed envelope received from the white house on august 18, 2011 at 10:46 a.m. and said to contain a message by the president where he has issued an executive order that takes additional steps with respect to the national emergency with respect to the government of syria declared in executive order of 1338 as expanded in scope and executive order 13572 of april 29, 2011, with best wishes, i am, signed sincerely, karen l. haas, clerk of the house. the speaker pro tempore: the clerk will read the next message. the clerk: to the congress of the united states, pursuant to the international emergency economic powers act and in light of the syria accountability and lebanese sovreignty restoration act of 2003, i report that i have issued an executive order that takes additional steps with respect to the government of

syria's continuing escalation of violence against the people of syria and with respect to the national emergency declared in executive order 13338 of may 11, 2004, as modified in scope and relied upon for additional steps taken in executive order 13399 of april 25, 2006. executive order 13460, february 13, 2008, executive order 13572 of april 29, 2011 and executive order 13573 of may 18, 2011. executive order 13338, the president found that the actions of the government of syria constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy of the united states and declared a national emergency to deal with that threat, to address that threat and implement the s.a.a., the president in executive order 13388 blocked the property of

certain persons and imposed additional prohibitions on certain transactions with respect to syria. executive order 13572, i expanded the scope of that national emergency and imposed additional sanctions. i have delegated to the secretary of the treasury the authority in consultation with the secretary of state to take actions, including the promulgation of rules and regulations and to employ all powers granted to the president by ieppa as necessary to carry out the pups of that order. all agencies of the united states government are directed to take all appropriate measures within their authority to carry out the provisions of the order. i'm encloudy skiesing a copy of the executive order i have issued. signed barack obama, white house. the speaker pro tempore: this matter is sent to the committee of foreign affairs. pursuant to sections 3 and 4, the house stands adjourned until

10:00 a.m. on tuesday, august the next one of these will be on tuesday, 10:00 a.m. eastern. the house returns september 7 for legislative business. live coverage is always here on c-span. next, like to the national press club did gary johnson is on your screen. republican presidential candidate, he just did speaking and the topic is republicans and social issues. it is live on c-span >> that business is doing better than ever, go figure. a committee financial freedom to be able to do what i want to do, when i want to do it. that has always been a goal of mine. i've always be that as entrepreneurial. my venture into politics was the entrepreneurial. i have run for to the political

offices in my life, governor of new mexico and reelection as governor of new mexico. i am also an athlete. i have been an athlete my entire life. i think that is part of the question, also, the discipline, the fitness the goes along with this job. i think you need someone that sets goals and has the discipline to accomplish things. in my lifetime, i have done hawaii, our man triathlon four times. i have had a lot of really good adventures. i actually summit did mount everest after hours through being governor, which was a great treat. it was a terrific in the venture. i got to stand on top of the planet. people ask me, what was it like to conquer mount everest? well, i did not conquer mount everest she lifted her skirt and i got in there and got a peak and it was really cool. [laughter]

my venture into politics was entrepreneurial. i did some things as kavner i think really unique. by the way, it was fun. it was really fun. it was exciting, invigorating, really wonderful to be cutting edge on all these public policy decisions, to understand what the issues were and make decisions that, in my opinion, benefited the citizens of new mexico. the pledge to me that politics was going to be last and issues would be first, that i was quite understand the issues. i had an open door after 4:00 policy as governor of new mexico. for eight straight years, i saw anyone in the state on the third thursday of every month starting at 4:00 in the afternoon on five minute increments. there was no one in the state of new mexico that could not say they could not get in to see the governor about this or that.

that was really, really and lightning. when i ran for governor of new mexico the first time, the incumbent control the debate process. so i debated the incumbent to times. i ran for reelection, we did some polling and i was up 10 points to start that process. given the fact i was at 10 points and i control the debate process, i ended of debating my opponent for re-election 28 times. which i thought was really good politics because i think it is what people really want. as governor of new mexico, i did this trek for trash program i have today, which i now have bicycled across the state of new mexico 100 days for 100 miles of the time, picking up trash across the state. i have done that for 18 straight years, which i think has also been very popular. they did a poll a couple of

months ago here on all the presidential candidates and favorability is they have in their own states. do you know there is only one candidate running for president that is viewed favorably in his or her own state? i thought that was great. they did a study a couple of weeks ago on job history. what is the job report when it comes to each candidate running for president? i had the best job record, the creation of jobs in new mexico while governor as opposed to anyone else running for the office. rick perry has entered the race and statistically he is just a hair ahead of me. as a couple of weeks ago, i lead that. when that came out, i said two weeks ago, what i said as governor of new mexico and that is, i did not create one single job as governor of new mexico.

government does not create jobs, the private sector does. but as governor of new mexico, i was able to veto legislation that was going to be adverse to government or to business, then when it came to rules and regulations, because i control all of the agencies, really, i created an environment where there was real certainty and jobs did grow. as governor of new mexico, i was distinguished for having vetoed perhaps more legislation than the other 49 governors in the country combined. i vetoed 750 bills while governor of new mexico. i had thousands of line item vetoes as governor of new mexico. i took on that debate and discussion that went along with those vetoes. it made a difference when it came to billions of dollars of spending that, in my opinion,

was not one to make a difference in any of our lives but just when to spend money and just going to lend lips service rather than actually address the issue. so every day i engaged in the whole notion of, what has johnson vetoed today and why? and that's played out in the print, radio, and television. i would like to think i came out on top of that debate, always arguing for smaller government, always arguing the best in the government could do for me as an individual was to empower me as an individual, to make choices i think only i have the capability to make. right now in this country, i think we're on the verge of a financial collapse. i think it is one of the monetary collapse. i think it is due to the fact that it is going to be a bond market collapse due to the fact

there is no repaying $14 trillion in debt given that we're going to add another $11 trillion to that in the next eight years? it is not going to happen. so we are not -- we are printing money to cover this debt. i really want to applaud congressman paul and the attention he has brought to the federal reserve and monetary policy, and what that is all about. we have a monetary policy in this country where we have zero interest rates. the value of the money we had in our savings account is going to be worth nothing if there's a monetary collapse. i suggest to you is unavoidable. it is going to happen. it is written. how do you avoid it? that is why i am here. i think you can avoid it by balancing the federal budget.

i am promising to submit a balanced budget in my first year as president. to balance the budget, that means cutting 43% of what government is currently spending. if you're one to talk about a reduction of 43% in what we're currently spending, you have to start off by talking about medicaid and medicare and military spending. when it comes to medicaid and medicare, i suggest the federal government could block grant the states a fixed amount of states, 43% less than what we spend currently, and the delivery of health care to the poor and those over 65 to the state. a skeleton of new mexico, a reformed medicaid in the state of new mexico -- as governor of new mexico, i reforms medicaid in the state of new mexico. we did the math. how many medicaid recipients and what if we gave them all my insurance policy as governor of new mexico, spending the same amount of money i spent on my

insurance policy? would we really say that amount of money? yes. that is what we did. we set up health care networks that did not exist prior to doing that. we saved a significant amount of money. i maintain of the federal government would have given me medicaid with 43% less money to deliver health care to the port, that i could have done that in new mexico if they would have done away with all of the strings and mandates attached to medicaid. if i were given medicare, i think i would have been able to do the same thing being that would be to deliver health care to those over 65. no strings, no mandates. the notion of 50 laboratories of innovation, the notion of 50 laboratories of best practice, in my opinion, that is what would happen. we would have spectacular success that would get an elated because we're all really

competitive. we would have spectacular failures. but the notion of washington knows best, the notion that washington top down is the answer, that is what has us in the predicament that we are in. if we do not fix this, it is not a very sexy message, if we do not fix this, we will find ourselves with nothing. we will end up printing 100% of the dollars used to buy up our own debt. that is one thing, it is a good thing, it implies that someone is loaning them money and they're going to get paid back. now last year, it is in revealed the federal reserve, 70%, up to 70% of the treasure purchases that were made were basically from the federal reserve just printing money. the monetary collapse is going to be when we print up 100% of that money to buy up our own

debt. the result of this is going to be an absolutely devastated dollar that is getting devastated right now. strong u.s. dollar, balance the federal budget, cut 43% of what we're currently spending -- i am promising to do that, promising to submit that budget as president of the united states and promising to veto legislation that goes out of bounds from being able to balance the federal budget. you would argue, they will just override or veto. i would have been elected president of united states promising to do this and i will do this, and based on my veto history, i hope you believe i would do this, but i think you're going to get closer to a balanced budget electing a president who is promising to submit a balanced budget as opposed to electing a president that is going to promise to do this over 15 or 20 years, because that is the only thing

to do. we can fix this. we can fix this, but we have got to do this and we have to do it now. talking about military spending. military spending, can we cut our military spending by 43% and still provide a strong national defense for ourselves? i think the operative word is " nacional defense." yes, i think we can do that as opposed to offense and nation- building. i was opposed to iraq before we went into iraq. i did not see a military threat from iraq. i thought we had the military surveillance capability to see iraq rollout any weapons of mass destruction, and if they would have done that, we could have gone and dealt with that situation. i thought if we went into iraq we would find ourselves in a situation or civil war to which

the rubino hand. afghanistan, initially, i thought that was totally unwarranted. we were attacked. we attacked back. after being in afghanistan for six months, we wiped out al qaeda. that was 10 years ago. we're building roads, schools, bridges, highways and hospitals in iraq and afghanistan and borrowing 43 cents of every dollar we are spending to do that. this is crazy. libya. when libya happened, i issued a paper, opposed to what we're doing in libya a to z. where in the u.s. constitution does it say because we do not like a foreign leader we should go in and topple that foreign leader? where was the congressional authorization? haven't we inject ourselves into a civil war in libya? don't five other countries right now qualify for the same

intervention? i suggest we get out of iraq, afghanistan, and libya tomorrow. when it comes to the rest of our military spending, does anyone here think it is justified that we have 100,000 troops on the ground in europe? i have never found anyone that believes that. looking that we might get by with 57,000 troops as opposed to 100,000 troops? i would have to have the case may to me we should have any troops there at all. and of these transportation infrastructure projects that have taken place in europe over the last several decades? if you know, they have been able to afford those infrastructure projects on top of health care for their citizens because, really, they have not had to spend any money on the defense. we subsidize that. the rest of the world needs to share in this vigil that we should have against terrorism.

i think there is a real threat when it comes to terrorism. we should remain vigilant to that threat, but it cannot just be us. it has to be other countries. when it comes to issues like health care and energy, the free market guy. as governor of new mexico, ivy took all sorts of legislation that i felt unfairly advantaged individuals, groups, corporations that were connected politically as opposed to legislation that would affect everyone equally. so what do we need to do in this country? we need to balance the budget first and foremost, then we need to scrap our entire a tax system in this country and replace it with the fair tax. if you have not looked at that, it is fairtax.org.

it replaces it with one federal consumption tax. but of free-market economists reckoning, it is fair. those that make more money will pay more under a fair tax. no one is going to avoid being able to avoid paying the -- and one is going to avoid not paying the fare tax. all of us will be given a check from the government to pay our fair tax up to the point of the poverty level. it is what it says it is. simple, make it easy, it does away with income tax and the irs. it does so with corporate income tax, the business tax. when he talked about creating jobs in this country, enacting the fair tax, why would you start a business anywhere on the planet other than the united

states given the and averment where there is no tax? -- environment where there is no tax? the creepy and averment the free tax would bring about. the free-market approach to the solutions that we face. i believe in free markets. i think there is a magic to free market. the criticism of free-market really is that it gets manipulated, that is not free market, but anything but free market. when it comes to health care in energy, free-market approaches to health care, to energy, looking at the immigration issue in this country. i think immigration is a hot- button issue. i think it starts with our mexicans coming across the border and taking entry-level

jobs from americans. absolutely not. we as americans can sit at home and collect a welfare check that is just a little bit less money or the same amount of money for doing nothing. we need to reform welfare in this country. i think was to make it as easy as possible for someone who wants to come into this country to get a work visa, not a green card or a citizenship, but a work visa. it would include a social security card. with the fair tax, nobody avoids paying tax. regarding the 11 million illegal immigrants here in this country right now, i think we need to set up a grace period where we can document them. that is how we secure the border. building a fence across 2,000 miles of border? putting the national guard arm

in arm across 2,000 miles of border, in my opinion, would be a whole lot of money spent with very little, if any, benefit whatsoever. and then, do not discount the problems with drugs and the border and the border violence. this is drugs. this is prohibition played out. i have advocated the legalization of marijuana since 1999. legalize marijuana and arguably, 75% of the border violence with mexico goes away. that in the estimate of the drug cartel's activities engaged in the marijuana trade. legalize marijuana, control it, regulate it, tax it. it will never be legal to get impaired and get behind the wheel of a car. it will never be illegal to smoke pot and do harm to others. it will never be legal for kids to buy pot or smoked pot.

the situation that exists today were pot is available virtually everywhere and the person that sells marijuana cells harder drugs were situation we have to present an i.d. and a controlled environment like alcohol to buy marijuana, i think you can make it that it would be more difficult based on the express in holland and portugal, with just things would get better and not worse. 28,000 deaths south of the border over the last four years. if we cannot connect the dots between prohibition and violence, i do not know if we ever will. these are disputes being played out with guns rather than the courts. right now, this is a contest right now on the republican side to obviously go up against president obama in the general election. i really think if republicans do not concentrate on pocketbook

issues, that they're not going to find themselves in a position to be able to make the change needed. i want to say republicans should not be focused on social issues. i will tell you as governor -- when i ran for governor of new mexico, i did not get the social conservative vote in the primary. it was not something that i was going to get. i did not get it, but i got that a vote in the general election because then the focus was on the pocketbook and pocketbook issues. i think republicans really need to concentrate on pocketbook issues. if republicans are going to be talking about abortion, if they're going to be talking about gyas -- gays -- i support gay unions. i family support of human beings right to make a decision i think only they should make.

i fundamentally believe a woman should have the right to make the decision when it comes to an abortion. i happen to believe -- these are social issues, to agree. i happen to believe in evolution. i happen to believe that global warming is happening and that it is caused by man. that said, what should we do about global warming? i do not think we should implement cap and trade legislation. for the trillions of dollars were looking to tax carbon emissions, i do not think will make a difference at all long term and his resources to be directed and many more effective ways -- those resources could be directed in many more effective ways. i would not be standing here if i did not think i could do this job, and would not be standing here if i did not think this needs to be fixed. based on my experience, good

government was easy. it was not difficult. it just took the willingness to go out and do this. there is nothing in my resume, nothing in my resume to suggest the things i'm talking about here to you right now i am not going to actually go out and pursue to the degree thank you all very much for allowing me to speak to you. i guess we'll open it up for questions, comments, maybe any insults that any of you have. hopefully not. hopefully not. >> thank you very much. we'll go ahead and ask questions. we have had a good flow of them since you began speaking which is a good sign. here's one that says the growing opinion is that it's not just the congress that can't compromise but also the american people themselves. everyone wants to live in like-minded communities in which they don't have to consider differing view points and behaviors.

what makes you the consensus candidate that can bring americans together again, particularly in respect to the not so seen debt debate recently? >> i would not have raised the debt ceiling. i think that were all of the trials and tribulations that would have gone on by not raising the debt ceiling that we would have stopped printing money. we could have addressed this now. it would be extremely difficult to deal with it now, but i just suggest dealing with it now will be pail in comparison to what looms in the not too distant future. we need to deal with that. look, i attend events where people are screaming, balance the budget! balance the budget! cut spending and they're holding a sign that says don't touch my medicare. you talk about consensus.

well, there's consensus here that has to be built on facts. a consensus built on reality. as president of the united states, as governor of new mexico, i know the power of the ability to talk about the issues. as governor of new mexico talking about school choice, advocating school choice, advocating bringing competition to public education. you can milwaukee a huge difference. that's what the president should be carrying out to its greatest degree. >> so you mention the debt ceiling at the outset there. would default be ok in your view? >> well, i don't see a default. i did not see it, and don't see us defaulting on obligations like debt payments. i didn't see that happening. i didn't see us defaulting on payments that were important. military personnel, whatever that might have been.

but this was in my opinion an opportunity to deal with it now. i don't want to discount how painful the process would be right now if congress and the president were to have engaged in this. i just cug it's going to pale in comparison to a monetary collapse. >> when you say you didn't see a default happening would you say they would have been avoided or per missable under the way you would manage the situation? >> i wouldn't be the dictator i would be the president of the united states and i respect the three branches of government. if i would have been the dictator, yeah i would have made all the interest payments, the payments that would have kept this country going forward. i would have put a stop to spending in areas we have to put an end to. back to being a dictator i would

have waved that magic wand and blocked the states grant of medicare and medicaid and we would have had 50 different ways of delivering health care to the poor and those over 65. we would have worked it out. we would be working it out right now. as opposed to not working it out and there's no magic in this. there's a day of reckoning here. >> so your proposal is to cut 43% of the budget. in a time where people at the end of the day ultimately have to get along or they don't accomplish anything, there was no agreement to cut $4 billion right? in other words, the maximum solution was not the one -- >> exactly, exactly. >> so ultimately, how would you have governed more effectively in that situation? >> well, what you're pointing out is the impossiblity of balancing the budget. that it's impossible. you can't do it. if i get elected president of the united states and this is

what i say i'm going to do which is submit a balance budget and not accept anything short of a balanced budget, what message does that send to congress? i think that sends a message that we really as american people want this issue addressed. i just argue that if you're going to elect a president who you may view as pragmatic because we need to do this over a 15 or 20 year period because that's the only real prudent way to go about it, it's not going to happen. that's the unsexy message about all this. we're going to find ourselves with nothing at the end of the day, as opposed to fixing it, which there's a lot to be said for fixing this. and we can do it! we went to the moon! we can certainly balance the federal budget! >> some people would like for you to difference yate yourself between ron paul.

in the sense that you reference him in your speech where you hold agreement. in some ways he might be seen as having some views similar to yours, how are you different? >> well, it gets back to resume. i think dr. paul has had many, many principle no votes in congress. the only no vote in congress. he registers his no vote, it's very principled. i would like to they if i were in congress i would have done the same thing. but as governor as new mexico out of those 750 vetos, new mexico is 2-1 democrat. out of those 750 vetos, a third of them were republican bills because republicans drew governments just like democrats in my opinion. and that legislation needed to be vetoed. unofficially i vetoed 100 bills

in the new mexico legislator where the vote was 117-0. i vetoed the legislation and only two of them were overridden so it stood up. so at the end of the day dr. paul, and again this is -- i applaud his principled position as a congress person, but my experience was difference. i couldn't go home at the end of the day rendering my veto. i had to explain it. i had to debate it, i had to discuss it. and that went on all the time and i would like to think the verdict on that was i get re-elected by a bigger margin the second time than the first time. i think that spoke to the fact that people really appreciate a good stewardship of tax dollars. >> under your vision, for example, cutting the 43%, you veto, veto, veto, when does the budget get passed? >> well, if congress doesn't balance, they're going to have

to override. if they override then it becomes a choice of the american public. do we stick with the president that we've elected? promising to submit a balanced budget? or do we overturn congress? and if congress overrides, i just suggest to you that that end product, that that product that they sent up in the very first place will come a lot closer to being balanced than if you're going to elect a president vowing to do this over a 15 or 20 year period. it's just going to be business as usual and these problems are not going to get addressed. >> some people have sent up questions talking about the lecktorral process so far. can you talk about why they you didn't want to participate in the iowa straw poll and why you weren't invited to participate in the debates. how do you see yourself getting to the finish line with those challenges so far? >> well, there are 184 candidates declared running for

president. it so happens that i'm like the guy right on the bubble. it's just where it works out. that i'm like ninth out of those 184. you know, you could say wow, what do i need to break through? or you could say wow i'm like ninth, i'm due to break through here. if you're a candidate that's known, i'm the least known republican candidate. that's a well known statistic. if you were known by -- >> well known that you're not well known. >> exactly. it's well known that i'm not well known. thank you. [laughter] if you're known by 100% of republican, of republicans and you're polling at about the same level that i am, which by the way, 1%-2%, what does that say? it doesn't say anything. what does 17% for the front runners say when the 17% doesn't

move? what it says is that this is absolutely wide open. and so people putting my chips on the table in new hampshire. a state that i think has a terrific political environment, that terrific political environment is people come on in, sit down, tell me what you think, let's talk, let's discuss, let's cuss about this. iowa, iowa is my running for president of the united states right now is very entrepreneural. it's kind of reflective of the times. we're doing this on a shoestring compared to others. in area, it was $35,000 for a booth. it was $35 a ticket to bring in supporters, of which i guess it was reported that michele balkmann bought 6,000 tickets.

so you do the math here. i couldn't afford it, i couldn't afford it. [laughter] >> fair enough, as this continues on you feel like you have the resources to mount an effective campaign in new hampshire. you said you're going there essentially after this. >> we've got a full time in new hampshire, they're terrific, they're all young and they're terrific. and we're fighting for a cause, if you will. and so it's fun. and so if you don't, if you're not spending a whole lot of money, which i'm not, i can last through this. i might end up winning california. that's how this could all work. >> rick perry appears to have toned down some of his words having gone from iowa to new hampshire. how do you think what you're presenting plays in new hampshire relative to the rest of the country for what you've seen so far?

>> well, i experienced this as governor of new mexico. by the way, this is the only vantage i've ever known politically. when i ran for governor of new mexico, the primary was in june. in february they did a poll, this was five months before the primary in new mexico? they did a poll, who would you vote for on the republican side of the ticket. i was at 2% of the republican vote. we were ecstatic because i was on the list. but, we hasn't spent any money when it came to trying to actually sell the message. what is it i'm saying? i had worked harder than anybody. i had addressed more people, i built up a great base, so i thought in new mexico and it actually worked out that way. when we started spinneding money on what is it i'm saying, what is it that i'm saying, i went from 2% to 24% in a couple of weeks.

so i understand politics, i understand how it works. i understand that yo can do well in new mexico. you can go from obscurity and that goes back to eugene macarthur. this is a card that i'm playing. >> someone asked why did you not just run as an independent, particularly as they phrase it, in light of the way that you've been treated by what they call the establishment? i mean, why seek a republican nomination at all given some of the differences you may have with many members of that party? >> well first of all i have no problem with the republican party. the republican party has been great to me. my entire career, the republican party has been come on in, this is a big tent. so i have no complaints with the republican party. none whatsoever. and i really don't have any complaints with the press either. this is a process. this is a process, you grind it out and you grind it out. i think it's a process where

you've got to say the right things, espouse the things that really need to get done and then you have to have a resume that's under the light of day says whoa! this is somebody who probably actually try and do what he says he's going to do. >> someone asked have you been asked to participate in any upcoming debates so far? >> yes, but so far i've been in one debate. i've been excluded from two. for what it's worth i'm the guy on the bubble. they were pretty darn up front about it, where they were relative to where i needed to be. so it is what it is. i guess i could not in a debate. maybe it's a must have to go listen to what gary has to say in south carolina because of hi showing in new hampshire. maybe you would walk out of here

and go, well i heard this before, well he doesn't stand a chance but i really like what he has to say. >> you've been described holding political positions that are similar to some of the tea party recommendations. how do you feel with respect to yourself? >> the tea party is a mixed bag, this is my opinion. if the tea party, and i think this is what the tea party stands for is the checkbook, the federal checkpoint, great, i'm a tea partier, period. talking about dollars and cents, let's save our country and actually become fiscally sound. but, i have seen tea party events that don't have that as their basis, that have a social agenda as their basis.

in my opinion, if republicans are going to lead, or nominate a candidate that first and foremost has a social agenda, i don't see republicans in a position to actually address the problems this country faces because i don't see this country addressing a president that will lead with a social agebbeda. >> someone asked of all the current g.o.p. contenders, who do you think is the toughest challenger right now and how do you tailor your strategy? >> well, my strategy is i'm not going to tailor my strategy for any of my opponents. i ran two campaigns for governor where i did not mention my opponent in print, radio or television. i don't know if anybody can lay claim to that. but i think clearly, when you look at contenders here, that it's mitt romney, he's raised a lot of money. 300 times as much money as i have.

that's formidable. i don't think i have to say anything about mitt romney that isn't going to get vetted out in this process. again i just say i believe in this process. i believe in this whole vetting out. if i didn't, i wouldn't be here. >> well our friend from the houston chronicle says you were new mexico governor when governor perry was starting out as texas governor. what do you think of him as a person and as a governor? do you think he is suited to be president of the united states, either professionally or tempermentally. what have your eight years as governor better qualifies for him, for example, who spent 10 years? >> well, first of all i really did like him. he took over from george bush so i served with him for two years. i thought he was a likable character, very charismatic. and basks in the job. look, i'm making the pitch that it's me, it's nobody else. if nothing else, i think you'll

all leave here having been hammered by that pitch i'm giving you. that's the only thing i can control, is my pitch. i love the fact that texas has such a great economic environment. i think that economic environment has existed for a long time. and that starts with no income tax. and it's something i talked about in new mexico all the time. this is the direction we need to move in new mexico. really didn't make reduction of taxes happen, because of a legislator that was 2-1 democrat. but in the environment that i had to deal with, statistically before rick perry entered into this race i had the best record when it came to jobs. now that he's entered into the race, statistically it's kind of like the polls and trying to get into the debates. it's really close. >> what do you think of husband suggestion that perhaps the fed chair has committed treason? >> i think the fed chair is the

marrying here. and that he, the fed have kept interest rates artifically low. federal reserves should be pursuing policies of strong u.s. dollar, not weak u.s. dollar. if we were to abolish the treasury reserve, they could still print money. we would have to makeup a lot of function that the federal reserve does carry out with regional banks and we could make that happen. transparency within the federal reserve, that's what's really key. we should work to see more comes out of the federal reserve. no, bernanke is the me -- no, bernanke is the messenger here. if interest rates aren't at

zero, which he, the federal reserve controls, is that interest rate, if they weren't at zero we would be in that financial collapse in that monetary collapse right now. it would be evident to the world and all of us as citizens. >> someone asked, we have the 9/11 anniversary coming up, the 10th anniversary, talked a little bit, referred to that earlier. what do you think about the federal governments reaction to that in general? you said you thought moving into afghanistan could have been a little more concise. what about department of homeland security t.s.a., et cetera? >> i would have never established the department of homeland security. i think that's it very due politic tive. i would have never established the t.s.a. i would have left airline security to the airlines and i dare say today getting on air planes would be as safe and less intrusive if the airlines were in charge as opposed to t.s.a.

right after 9/11 we secure the cockpit doors. well, you know what? that really prevents for the most part an airplane being used as a missile again. and more important than anything passengers are not standing by for any shenanigans. and that is more important than anything right now. so after 9/11 in new mexico? what i did is i just stood back and said no! no! we don't need to barricade the f.a.a. building on louisiana. it's not going to happen! no, we're not going to divert 30 years of traffic because of 9/11. no! i'm not going to post sentry's because someone's going to blow up the dam. on and on and on and on in the name of security, in the name of safety, we're giving up our civil liberties in this country just one step at a time. and i'm not that guy.

i'm not that guy to give up civil liberty. i think this country's about liberty and freedom and the personal responsibilities that goes along with that. and that personal responsibility really starts with can we spend more money? can you and i spend more money than what government takes in and then hand that bill over to our kids? i don't think so. >> someone says if the u.s. pulled out of iraq and afghanistan tomorrow as you propose, would you have any concerns about al qaeda and taliban extremists pulling the vacuum left by the exit? does the u.s. have any responsibility to continue providing security for locals there? >> so, if we pull out of iraq and afghanistan tomorrow, these are the questions we'll be faced with. what's going to happen? that debate and that discussion is going to be totally warranted. it's going to have a basis in fact, and it would be something that would concern us all. i just argue we're going to have

this same debate and discussion 25 years from now if that's when we finally decide to get out. i hope that's not the case. i hope to get elected president of the united states and begin an immediate pull out from iraq and afghanistan and libya. >> you said you believe, you support the notion of gay unions. does that translate into gay marriage as well? >> i think government should get out of the marriage business. i think government can be in the civil union business. get out of the marriage business, leave the marriages to the churches. >> could you talk a little bit more about how you view the issue of climate change? and what should the governments role be in mitigating that? >> well, climate change. i think the world is getting warmer. i think it's man caused. that said, should we be engaged

in cap and trade? >> no, i don't think we should. we should lend certainty to the energy field. we should be living new coal-powered plants. when you're looking at the amount of money we are planning to spend on global warming, the trills, and look at the results, i just argue the result is completely inconsequencal to the money we would end up spending and we would direct those moneys in other ways it would be much more beneficial to mankind. the long-term view -- should we take the long-term view when it comes to global warming? i think that we should. and the long-term view is that in billions of years, the sun is going to actually grow and encompass the earth, right? so global warming is in our future. >> census projections indicate the u.s. will soon become a majority-minority country.

largest minority group being hispanics. some people say because the g.o.p. has taken a hard line on immigration, they are alienating those people and will diminish the parties chances of winning the white house in the future. how do you manage that coming from a border state? >> i think that's a fair statement. i think mexicans, and ike talking about legal immigration. illegal immigration, bad thing. i gave you some suggestions on how we deal with illegal immigration, in my opinion effectively. but legal immigration is a good thing. we're getting the cream of the crop when it comes to workers from mexico. that's a fact. so i think the republican party has vilified hispanics. and that it's not necessary to do that. and i've never done that, and i don't intend to do that in the future. i view immigration as something positive.

enact the fair tax. make this country the only place to start up, grow, nurture business for those businesses in this country that are going to want to rely on low cost labor. maybe that's a legal immigrant that can get a legal immigrant to come in and work. new mexico, for what it's worth is the highest percentage, has the highest per capita percentage of hispanics of any state in the country. about 47%. i'm often times asked what did i do to get the hispanic vote? the answer is nothing. i didn't do a thing. i took the job from a standpoint that government should provide a level playing field for everybody. government should take this position of look, make it equal access for everybody. and that means the american

dream. you can go from having nothing to having everything if you're willing to work hard and innovate. i just argue that this government, our government really benefits those that are well connected politically as opposed to the latter, which is what this country is about. >> you talked during your speech about having an open door after 4:00 policy. would that extend to the white house and would you then be forgavoring additional funding for the secret service? >> no, i'm looking at a 43% reduction in what the executive spends to be able to live from day-to-day. i think air force one needs to be grounded. that's symbolic, i realize, but not really. that's dollars and cents. i would like to establish an open door after 4:00 for waste, fraud and abuse.

the third thursday of every month i would meet with anybody in government that has, that can tell me about the notion of waste, fraud and abuse and i got to tell you based on my experience as governor of new mexico, you can get right in the middle of this stuff and fix stuff immediately. yeah, you might say that's just peanuts compared to the hole. well you know what? you fixed the peanuts. i fix it for this one individual, i fix it for 40 others that have had, that have been subject to the same treatment that vice president come in here and done this. that being past and looking future. >> i would like to add that we have some upcoming luncheon on september 30. ahead of labor day. september 6, the former mayor of new york will be our guest.

now as we always do before they absolutely ask last question, like to present you as a token our national press club copy. >> thank you very much. >> one final question. one looks at the history books and reminds there have been a couple of president johnsons before. one was the first president impeached. that was president andrew johnson who was the 17th president of the united states. the second was president lyndon johnson who last was in office in 1969. how would you be different from them? [laughter] >> i don't think there could be a bigger difference between lyndon johnson and myself as president of the united states. lyndon did give us medicaid and medicare. i think he set the course for where we're at right now financially. it's just taken this long to get there. i'm about as opposite as i think. i know that lyndon johnson when he took office that