for 20 plus years. as of 2009, pension funds -- pensions were underfund by $1.26 trillion nationally. at the federal level, we are spilling $1.50 trillion more a year than we have righ now. we absolutely are going to be raising taxes. if we went ahead and did the tax increases president obama suggested this summer -- tax and corporate jets, ending the bush tax cuts for rich families making more than $250,000 a year, that would raise about $85 billion next year. given that we are going to borrow $1.50 trillion, that would mean we were only bar when $1.40 trillion next year. that would also mean our top marginal tax rates for families making more than $250,000 in your average state are going to

be about 55%. that is wheyou add their federal rate, their state rate, and their social security contribution. if you take that higher, which is certainly feasible, 70% of each dollar earned when president reagan became office. there were concerns to start to discourage economic productivity among people when they are paying 70 cents on the dollar, but you can certainly go there. the reality is that even if we did those tax increases, that would bring in $300 billion a year, which is terrific, but we are still spending money we do not have for the foreseeable future. i am sympathetic to the point that we're going to have to generate more revenues. but the notion tt if we do so that will alleviate the need to dial back an affordable promises is nothing but a fairy tale. we also need to look at an

affordable promises that have been made by irresponsible politicians over the past 20 or 30 years. that is going to address national entitlements like social security and medicare, and state level entitlements like pensions and health care. i am sympathetic to this point, and we need to be talking about all of this. i agree. but the reality is that we're going to have a choice very shortly. the tax dollars at the state and local level are not going to go into the classroom to educate our kids. is it going to pay retirement promises in terms of pensions and health care? i know which side of that issue i am on. >> this is a really -- this may be far afield from what instructional practices teachers should use to implement the

course, but there is a constant macro and micro issue that we are all facing. as rick was saying that, i recollected an argument on the pension task force. one of the things we saw was that the fairly modest pensions that are done in the public sector still cost a bunch of money. the issue becomes when the market goes wild, as it has been going right now. how are the pension costs sustained? one of the things we said was let's have a modern pension system -- no spikes, constant contributions in terms of both employers and employees. but this is the point i think rick is missing in all this.

there are modest salaries in the public sector. retirement benefits are part of those salaries. the macro point is this for america. what happens 10 or 20 years from now, when no one has a retirement benefit and people are 70 and 80 years old? what happens? what you see in the polling we have done is huge retirement insecurity. so rick is talking about how we solve -- how we actually make the situation in terms of retirement insecurity worse on a mao level by getting rid of it on a micro level. what we need to actually do is we need to actually think about what happens in this country long term. you have people getting older and older, and working until they are in their 50's and 60's.

what happens afterwards? in some ways, the public sector and bargaining solve that by saying modest wages, but also deferred compensation in terms of pension. that is a big long-term problem. >> we are going to turn the page soon. >> i think we disagree a fair bit on how modest teacher compensation is. median teacher pay in the u.s. is $54,000. fully loaded, it is somewhere in the low 70's, with benefit cost. it depends on benchmarks in terms of how you compare. but keep in mind the typical teacher work year is 190 days instead of 240. there are issues when we start

to talk about teacher compensation in current dollars and retirement. reasonable people can come at this in different ways. i think randy is right that the real issue is long term. is there a relatively simple way to start talking about getting retiree health care and pensions under control in the public sector? you can take the norm of teacher retirement from 30 years to 40 ars, so teachers are expected to retire at 65 rather than 55, or 57, which is a legacy of a much earlier era when we thought of public sector pensions as fitting a different demographic profile in terms of how long we expected to live. i certainly think there is good and serious room for people to talk aut how we build these solutionin ways that work. but i suspect that if we were to try to put together before a

team of admirable teachers the noti they ought to extend by a decade their expectation of career longevity to qualify for benefits, th would not be received wmly. >> i am giggling as you are talking about that, because at the same time as we have seen those proposals, we have also seen proposals that say let us look at experience and let us be fairly negative about experience, and let us just have younger -- wch i do not subscribe to. we need newark teachers and we need experienced teachers. we need that kind of balance in a school. that is fantastic. you cannot on the one hand say teachers should work longer and on the other hand say tt we are not going to give them the opportunity to work longer.

there are a lot of teachers that work 30 or 40 years. there are also some folks who, at their 20th or 25th year, say i have to do somethinglse, or i am tired. one of the things we need to do is we need to actually do things ke have different kinds of career ladders for teachers, so you can do something different with those skills. i do think we are losing huge -- at the very same time as skills and knowledge are so important, we need to maintain that experience. but i am not saying we do not have to confront pension issues and long-term retirent security and health security issues. but teachers are not zillionaires. what they do, as part of the benefit package -- if you are

planning for retirement and saving for retirement, that is really good for the economy, and that is really good for a community. but the last thing i want to say is this on economics. i think there is a fundamental misstatement that happens. we saw it in the debt ceiling debate. it is about debt. the last democratic president in the united states of america actually endedis presidency not with a debt, but with a surplus. that was a decade or so ago. what is the fundamental reason that we have the debt we have right now? we have three words we are engaged in right now. we have tax cuts that were never paid for. we have a prescription drug benefit that was never paid for. there are a bunch of different

reasons why we are in the crisis we are in. a lot of it is not because of the education spending we have done over the course of time frankly, what has happened is that we will actually disinfest from our kids at the very same time the economy is changing, and then say the promises were made with the first pension to people who actually worked in this field when there were moderates salaries should not be paid. something is fundamentally off about that. >> i think randy makes a nice point. it is one i think performers often give short shrift. teachers have entered the profession with an implicit understanding. this also comes up when we talk about how we are going to treat seniority in terms of school assignment and classrooms. teachers have been in the field 20 years. they entered the field with a certain derstanding about

compensation and benefits. i think any of us,hen we think we have one set of bills on the table, but then people come in and self righteously tell us it does not work -- there is absolutely -- any of us would feel we were being dealtith badly. i am sympathetic. a second point here. i can't remember. let us leave it there. >> i want toet back at other issues, but this is helpful. in terms of agreement i am hearing, y both are against demagoguery. that is good. i think you both agreed that in the case of wisconsin, there was evidence they were willing to deal, although with the point that would only have an impact in the short term. this retirement situation is a big issue. you both agree that there is concern that to solve the bt crisis there is going to be

disinvestment from kids. there is this intergenerational concern going on right now that we might continue to transr wealth from the young to the old. >> that was the point i wanted to make. unfortunately, because we have made expensive promises, we are having to dial back investment in all kinds of areas we care about -- infrastructure, schools, kids. partly, that is because we have made a set of bloated, and i think at this point unwise, commitments to the elder. when we started medicare 45 years ago, the poverty rate among the elderly was substantially higher than it was among their children. today, the poverty rate among the elderly is about half what it is among american children. we have tied up substantial resources in spending dollars on the over 65. the pension and health care in

education is part of it. i agree that if we are serious about doing right by our kids in educational improvement, we want to be putting more dollars into the kids, partly because it is a good investment and partly because it is the right thing to do. but we need the intestinal fortitude to say we cannot do everything in the world it would be swell to do. one of the things this requires is we have to take a hard look at what we have promised we are going to do for the elderly. >> i do not want to get too deep into a social security and medicare debe. the point about the race to the bottom instead of a race to the top, to the pointhere we are not saying let us have retirement insecurity for everybody. >> this is a really interesting economic discussion we're having, on a macro level. it would not surprise rick that i come from a keynesian belief

that you have to actually create jo and try to figure roadways of filling those jobs. but one ofhe things i am haunted by right now is that at the same time as we have this 10%, 9% unemployment rate, regardless of what the effective unemployment rate is for folks, there are 3 million jobs available in the united states of america that are not filled because of the skill list match. that is the kind of thing we should be working on on a micro level right now. it is the kind of thing that, if we actually had, in different communitie-- what are the business nds? what are the skills of people? are there ways of creating a match? is there a role for community colleges and others to create wraparound services around schools in order to do that?

these are the problems america should be able to sol right now, as opposed to ultimately simply thinking about the big macro problems. that is the -- at the end of the day, when you have an economic downturn, the likes of which we have had now, which most americans did not create, recklessness in wall street, cklessness on the housing market created it -- when you have this, you als have the safety net kicking in for more and more people. it means that are more of a burden. food stamps. medicaid. unemployment. they kick in when people have less and less jobs. when there are more jobs available, people are paying taxes.

there is less debt. there is more surplus. i get to this debate saying jobs, jobs, jobs. we have said that in the labor movement for a long time. one of our proposals in terms of pension funds is that this is -- there is a tremendous amount of capital in pension funds throughout the country. let's use it for infrastructure. let's use it to create jobs. let's use it for the things we need to do. let's do things differently now that america used to do. we are so timid about doing big things. that is one of our ideas. that is one of the things we have talked to pension-fund around the country about. >> for those of you watching on line, you can send us questions. you can ask a question on twitter using the hash tag wrtt.

we started this discussion and move away from it, but i want to get bk to this question about teachers feeling under attack. let me ask you this. is there any way for reformers to promote the kind of changes we are talking about -- curtailing pension benefits and health-care benefits, changing evaluations, making jobs less secure -- is there any way of promoting that agenda that is not going to make teachers feel under attack? are these policies that are not going to like, or is it a communication failure? >> if the policies are how can we take something from you, as opposed to how can we make education better -- if it is framed as we are going to take something from you, of coue there is going to be a reaction to that. if these are policies that say

let's start with what the kids need tonow and be able to do in the 21st century, and how are we going to help all kids get there, then that is an engagement strategy everyone should want to be involved in. >> but isn't that the steven brill point? we all love kids? >> i did bring one prop. i am really -- it is actually hard to create a trusting, innovative environment. i have been a boss for a long time. i have been the boss in the uft. i was the president from 1999 through 2008. but the american federation of teachers, i have been the president from 2008 to now. i have managed a lot of people.

it is much harder as a boss to actually try to build a cture of trust and innovation, and to collaborate. it is ch easier to order. it is much less effective to bar and order. it is much more effective to do this. this is not a kumbaya of. when people talk about it as kumbaya are, it trivializes our work. the issue in terms of teachers is they are on the ground, actually being the ones to implement all of these high- minded policies we talk about. the question becomes how do you engage them in that implementation. the implementation is often the hardest, even things we would all agree on. teachers should be qualified. whether you call it art -- call it effective or qualifie how do you make that happe how you in sure -- pick another

policy. i think on this stage we probably agree that there should be high standards for children. i think we probably agree there ou be high expectations. let us get our sandals on. and the guitar. i think we probably agree there should be -- some of us may agree there should be a common core curriculum, some of us may not. but how you ensure that happens? if we engage in the conversation that way, th would be one thing. but if we engage in the conversation saying i am about to tell you that you have to work harder, but i am loppg off 20% of your salary because

nobody can afford it, and you should just be happy you have a job, that is not going to be a pleasant conversation with anyone. it is going to be demoralizing. i think it is going to be a step backward, not a step forward. >> i think she is right. when you tell people they are not going to get as much as there used to getting, they're going to be upset. unfortunately, i think that is a position feckless leadership has gotten us in. one strand of reforms the kinds of things that are directly centered on instruction, on pedagogy, on sequence, pacing, and stuff for teachers know more about it than anybody sitting on the outside, looking in. it makes all the sense in the world to approach these things in a collaborative fashion, giving teachers opportunities to ld their expertise to shape what we are doing and hold them

accountable. >> would you support getting some of that into collective bargaining agreements? >> i think it ought to have an outside the framework of collective bargaining. i think collective bargaining rigidifies it and healthfully. one important disagreement there is whether it is useful to do that in terms of collective bargaining are not. several people have talked about united mine workers and new unionism for a lo time. i am skeptical this works out. randi obviously has a different opinn. one of thehings i wish we couldo more effectively is recognize that smart, thoughtful people can look at the same facts and experiences and come to different conclusions, without imagining the other person must have a nefarious plan.

so there is one strand of reform where i agree on principle very much, even if i disagree with how to go about it. but there is a second strand, when it comes to staffing ratios, when it comes to benefi, when it comes to compensation structures. what we are doing is talking about saying to teachers we have increased nominal per-pupil spending threefold -- after inflation, threefold since the early 70's. most of this has gone into hiring more boes. we have gone from a 23-1 student teacher ratio in 1973 to a 15.5- 1 student teacher and the issue today. this is more than we can train adequately. i would rather see fewer educators and pay them tter. but educators may not feel this is a good trade-off. these kinds of policy determinations are going -- are

frequently going to have to happen, whether or not teachers are comfortable with them. >> i think on the economics, i actually -- im actually troubled by some of the global spending conclusions that i hear all the time. when you impact the numbers, you see what that spending is for. we have had a 50% increase from the early 80's to now in terms of special needs children and the spending on special eds children is higher than spending on children who do not have special needs. is that an important value? probably so. that is what some of that number is. what is interesting is that in the countries that out compete us, when you look at their spending, retirement and health benefits are not in their

equati. that is about 13%. so it is an apples to oranges comparison. when you take that out of the comparison, the numbers as a percentage of gdp what is the actual spending on teachers foredecks what we have seen is class sizes having gone down. if era high school teacher, you are working with 150-200 kids a day. how are ya going to have any sure?evenengagement to be how are you going to create the environment and critical thinking with 150-200 kids ta/

what we are seeing is an increase of testing coordinators and in those kinds of things. athis is part of the reason why if we used collective bargaining, it has become flexible. the biggest flexible -- the biggest challenge may have said they a long time ago. how have you actually changed his goals tax -- c hhanged

schools? how d you do this? try some of these experiments. given that we have this huge sister, we could try some of this experimentation p. it pretty much looks like the

regular system. take this. it was mentioned. she actually did something about the tended time. it is the way in which they used expended time to create this. it is a shared readerships school. it is very engaged. they use it to engage kids. how do you use collective bargaining to try to break through the industrial model and

deleveraging agent to do that? >> the future valuations in this issue of finding a way to weed out low performers, this is what a lot of these discussions come down to. they cannot remove ineffective teachers. would you say this is what the whole position is about s ? >> with the problems, they have goen into this scapegoating union.

they are letting them off the hook. if you look at the new teacher project, we see 99% of teachers being evaluated. we have management. they are failing at their first obligation, to identify educators and is it that they improve or they will not. they are mistaken. they wind up sharing some of this. i would like to see them calling out. i do not think they do so. there is too often a compromise.

everybody aees and nobody should be called to account. in that way, everyone wants response ability. this is a robust sysm in which we're building a lot of room for managerial judgment of where taking into account full evaluation including how much they contribute to their teams. the's soliciting information on what they are resnding to. policymakers are deeply concerned that they cannot trust district leaders to make good are responsible judgment. we heard they will make this.

this is a problematic compromise. it is relatively simplistic. it turns very heavily on the calculations. i do not think anye thinks this is particularly good or elegance. th is the one solution we defaults to. nobody seems comfortable trusting their judgment. >> we have the impact. it is the perfect. it has led to hundreds of teachers losing their jobs. we finally have accountability. something has happened to them. what is wrong with that?

crux it is the second to the last. they actually hired more teachers than the system. that never gets out there. let's take this back. systems have been broken. it is really hard to actually fire people. people don't and they blame something else. it is hard. it is a hard thing to do. >> people still like to do it. people do not like to look somebody else in the eye and say

you are fired. there are some people that do do that. most do not. let's not go through the list of the people that do. with our union did was that we actions been some time saying how do we do this right? we saw that you cannot do this. we used to do finger-pointing. we stopped that. the started doing let's figure out what is the right way to do this.

we know that confidence matters. any schoolteacher you talk to will tell you that they want teachers teaching side by side. loved kids. it is the peer review process. we are looking at the valuation. they do not actually a lying to

this. we need to have valuations that measures what teachers are doing in the classroom and how they engage and whether or not kids have learned. we have tried to come up with a free market that debdoes that. that includes tax showers. there are about 100 districts that are using this. it is very different. it is not simply about sorting.

it is something that was done with teachers and not to teachers. >> it does not just sort of support it. there have been some that did not make the grade. >> if i can up with a factor, the block will be the weingarten says teachers should be fired. what happens if you have a really good evaluation? the real issue is credibility for the system. we are in a huge process right now.

the bottom falling out of the economy is action going to make it worse and not better. a year to go out as much more optimistic that we could do this. this is really a time and sensitive. if you want to spend some time really doing good evaluations, you will do it. usage with the teacher. you say, what do you trying to accomplish? did we accomplish the ducks he talk about wt else you need to do. tryingy get what they're to teach? they want to do what they did

in singapore, is the people that should not be in the profession. theyave to be really quick. it takes a lot of time. that kind of time costs money. >> i think the issue here is like the one we raised before. there is a huge constructive edge. special using today's matches, incorporating that without these systems. does like we talked about, there are things that teachers will resist. we start using about the

thoughtfully selected systems, it represents all taxes. it is difcult to convince all teachers to be enthusiastic spiri. there's much more room to be collaborative. >> i am not saying this is easy. our membership adopted this framework. when we put all the pieces together, and they adopted it. i'm not saying it is easy. we represent all teachers. we need to make sure its is represented fairly.

the union' job is to help them get the tolls and conditions they need that they would not be able to get a loan. an individual teacher, i am not saying you are wrong about this. we have to be about quality. >> let's give some questions. we would give them priority.

anybody deaths we will makit up. this is from greg. it points to this. i do not want to wait flaubert's to try to figure that out. how we see people to get to the jobs. >> no. the question in the job. >> i am for rescaling.

>> we have a long policy agenda. that is a challenge to me. they wanted valuations beyond the test scores. includes a colter for burning. -- it includes a culture for learning. does your evaluation speak to that? could you elaborate? >> the frawork that we spo to our about creating a culture and a climate for innovation and opportunity to grow. there are things that need to happen. how do you have the tools and

conditions? how is there a time to ensure that kids are actually engaged with one another doing teamwork? things that are not tested? doing the kind of critical thinking and problem solving that is necessary. part of the free more is the environment, it is their opportunity to create that environment? the way we try to st this is there something we call 360 degree of accountability. it is not just accountability. do people have the tools they need to have an environment?

our tools are safe and orderly. are there the services that they need? one of our first issues for weather and not they were important decks dealing with this, how do u teach this tax is part o our system. welcome. ople get this. i watched rahm emanuel athe global initiatives.

it was about chicago and about his well-being to create an environment that was conducive. this was the superintendent's role. it is to help create an environment conducive to learning. >> they think you should be superintendents. do a quick round. >> i have a grt job that i love. tell you what i think is the weakest argument. >> need to give them more discretion. they have full discretion today to terminate this. with this a big problem your whole theory about testing this?

>> this is why we are lining up with this. there are policy makers. triggers what it will be based on simple measures. >> iis indefensible. >> this has the of proximity to fairness.

this obfuscated the whole impact of the whole amounts of layoff. -- wee're starting to see saw a bunch of unions. obfuscated the fact that there were layoffs. there is performance. you're not gonna do have an

impact. willing to say goodbye? >> nothing is going to hold that question anymore. it is about evaluation. >> you must use it. if there are 71 people who have actually performed well -- similarly situated people who have actually performed well, experience should matter. that is what i am saying. israeli people believe that teachers were all effective -- if people believed that teachers were affected, this issue would move. >> as to what more from the audience. -- let us do one more from the

audience. >> i am from the house committee on education in the work force. he had touched on this a ltle bit. what is the federal role in a lot of these reforms you're talking about? what is the federal role? >> there is a huge opportunity for the fed to do more harm than good. i think highly qualified teaching. a search to get nervous feelings in the base of my spine. -- i start to get nervous feelings in the base of my spine. it is the way the feds are incentivizing state tax. the talked about the no et al. left behind reauthorization. there opportunities to provide

political cover to superintendents in stake covers to do what he is talking about. they have this mechanism system that were designed we had no way to identify a good teacher from a bad teacher. we were concerned. women are becoming teachers. we do not have to worry much. since the world does change, i think states need to be engineered their system. in terms of how to get there, we have some points of agreement. i would like to see the federal government providing there opportunities for states and governments that came forward. we're focusing on quality, smarter use of thealent they got, removing effective

educators. i would like to see them in a position to put plans that they are dividing rather than see them coming forward. >> i may disagree with what it looks like. you are right about this. there is one of their role the federal government has. kennedyook at what's did in terms of if, it was originally about kids that are being left behind in how we created equity. that is a really important role. if we actually believe an oprtunity, if you have to actually act like that.

there is that role there is the role of trying to create opportunity to trade in evidence base system that works. if we have evidence of what works, we can do the kind of scaling up that is so important. when the toughest things in education these days is in never felt of that which works. -- onef the toughest things in education these days is that we never felt out that which works. whenever make sure that they had a foundational basis and knowledge so that they're prepared for what comes. >> i'm going to give you each one minute to identify some areas we think there is common ground picres.

>> there is no reason we should be able to see somebody out. james madison was basically a pay in and out a check and balance each other. good people are going to disagree about important questions of our time. i am sick to death of this notion that if you're doing something for the kids that there is one right answer. they should be encased in the debate because we have honest disagreements.

we should have respect for one another. they have a massively over estimated how technically skilled we are in is point. treing complex systems. this is a progressive era. there are enormous opportunities to identify we performers. i think we can agree on that. we can use talent.

it is very muchy using technology. you need to take a large look at existing commitments. the priorities are there. >> we may not agree on what the imaginations look like. there has to be an openness to not the goal of helping all kids achieve them but a great opportunity for them pretty but

create a opportunity for them to change their light. this is our goal. this is the biggest agreement. they used peopleifferently, of trying to focus on the valuations in a way that do promote continuous improvement. if people are not cutting it, they cannot deal with the appearance.

we have to be open to new ideas. a real disagreement, we can debate this vigorously. it is how we ensure it. at the end of the day you do not find common ground and have you put teachers with their work. you have to do this alone. no one can do this alone. it takes a village to raise eight children. -- to raise children.

we have to find common ground. in terms of policy and implementation to ensure that they have the tools they need. [applause] >> here is a barack obama quote. thank you for disagreeing without being disagreeable. we can fight things out of going to personal attacks. thank you for joining me. this event will be broadcast on line shortly. line shortly.