until next time, thank you. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] ♪ >> on your screen, the martin luther king memorial. it is called stone of hope. the dedication takes place this sunday. if you want to tune in and watch the dedication, and you can see it live on c-span at 11:00, as well as c-span radio. we confine the information. as far as the dedication, the ceremony takes place at 11:00

this coming sunday. this memorial the subject of several stories in the paper, including in the "of washington post." athe numbers are on the screen. if you want to reach out on e- mail, journal@c-span.org. and twitter is available to you as well. facebook is already open. we posted there and you can see that. lesley maxwell has already weighed in on facebook this morning. she is saying this.

those are the kinds of comments or one of the comments about this topic. you can weigh in on the others. the thing that drove us to the question is a special section in the "washington post." it takes a look at what you saw going into the show this morning, the shot of the martin luther king jr. memorial. inside, several informational details about the memorial. here are some details that come from the paper this morning. from the paper this morning. the sculpture is called "this town of hope."

-- "the stone of hope." a single wedges pushed out and from there king's form the emerges. you can see the example right there, also information as far as the wall of quotes, a total of 14 " says that span his career are in the granite none from the "i have a dream" speech. compare that to the lincoln monument. they make that in comparison to the average six-foot man. we're looking for first 45 minutes with the release of disinformation, the dedication ceremony this sunday. the impact of martin luther king

on you and the lines will be on your screen. we go to louisiana, sabrina, go ahead. >> i think he paved the way for me to be where i am today. i am a senior in college and i will always be grateful for him. i think that monument is a wonderful thing. >> do you plan to come visited any time soon? caller: not send but i will come visit because i like my children to see it. host: what you think of the design? caller: it does not look exactly like him. i would prefer it to be more like him. someone said that it did not have none of the quotes from the "i have a dream" speech. i would like some of that. i am just glad that they have

the monument, period. host: on the independent line. caller: i was fortunate to be in a few marches with him. he made me understand as a young man how important the environment -- non-violence was. it is such a historical thing that a statute to them. -- to have a statue of him. we are all americans and he did a lot of great things and brought us such a high spirit among young people. he was triple teamed and when he died, he did not have all the fortune that they claimed he had feared he was not doing it for money. he was a dedicated man.

i am so proud of him. host: video from the side of the memorial. if you want to find out more affirmation, some of the history, saying that in september 1996, the u.s. house of representatives passed joint resolution 78, authorizing a memorial in washington, d.c. to honor dr. martin luther king jr.. the senate followed on october 3, 1996. in 1998, president clinton signed a joint congressional resolution authorizing the building of a memorial. in 2006, lee ying was the sculptor of record. construction has commenced,

completion of the memorial, it depends on the campaign. wisconsin, sherry, the democratic line. caller: i wanted to say that the statute is ok. statute is ok. i do like a legacy. i am a lifetime democrat and i believe that his principles and philosophy is were to lift up poor people. it wasn't so much about racial things, although that was part of it. but it was more lifting of the people so that they have dignity in their work, paid a fair wage, given opportunities in lead this country, and right now, i believe some of our

politicians have lost touch with that. they have gone away from policies to help poor people and there are more poor people do to the economy. host: clinton township, rhode island, you are next. caller: i am from michigan but that is ok. i was just a little kid when all of this was going on with martin luther king. but i studied history, and that changes he cause they were all for the better, and i think he would be upset with the way that things are going on now. he said the judge a person by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. me being a republican and the vanity party person, we are not racist people and we always get labeled that. maxine waters said that we can all go straight to hell. the way they treat us like we're

some sort of that person because we do not agree with policy. we are not racists and we should not be judged by that. because we do not agree with policy. host: what do you think about the memorial? caller: i think it is great. it is right on time. we could use something like this. host: 11:00 is the dedication ceremony on sunday. because of hurricane irene, this is from the "l.a. times." the latest projection shows the eye of the storm hitting washington about 8:00 a.m. sunday. that just hours before crowds are scheduled to descend on the national mall for the formal dedication. as of early tuesday afternoon, no decision had been made about the ceremony. they had monitored the situation and they have from the beginning. the real bottom line is no decision has been made.

there is a huge amount of trauma injected here. wiser heads and cooler heads need to prevail. riverside, california, you are next on the impact of martin luther king. caller: i have a different perspective and i hope you'll be patient with me. give me one moment please. i do not agree with none of the legacy of martin luther king at all. honor your husband, on your wife, about your parents, and do the right thing. the bottom line is, all of this legacy stuff, the only reason that they celebrate him is because he was a man. he told brown man to let races people come up on them and do as they wanted. that is why brand men are not -- brown men are not respected

today and their children have no self-respect. i am a brown person, and i do not call myself like. black persons are negative. it is going to be a blight pay. host: vivian shepherd's son off twitter. twitter is one way you can reach out to us this morning. a couple of news stories taking place. this from "usa today." the nation section.

pennsylvania, go ahead. the republican line. caller: i think this is a very well deserved honor for this man, who dedicated his life to just causes, especially as blacks were treated in that era, and we have come a long way. i like to refer people to

"letter from a birmingham jail." it is so referent -- moving to refer to that. this one has a lot of quote from jesus. the reason that he is doing the non-violent demonstrations, and he says in one that he agrees with sand and dust and who says, an unjust law is no lockout all. in my own personal life, i am working at a pro-life crisis pregnancy center because i believe that the roe v wade law that says is a ghost came -- it is ok to kill unborn baby is an unjust law that needs to be overturned. we offer money, a sum of $3,000, for abortion-minded women to choose life. women to choose life. host: the park service reports that the lincoln memorial, the

washington mall morial, and others were closed after an earthquake struck yesterday. it is on the front page of several pages this morning. this is a picture from the "washington times." we're talking about the impact of martin luther king's legacy in light of his dedication -- the memorial dedications sunday. caller: my comment is along the lines of, we have carved up the stone into martin luther king. wouldn't he be happier if president obama would take the time to put an end to the stones being harvested against civil

rights? i think that is a fair question. i think that is his ticket to the next round. there is no more racism in america. i think that we have become very -- let's go to the gray areas and put a stop to it. host: washington, d.c., david on the democrats' line. caller: those of us that have managed to learn to read and write would greatly appreciate the sacrifice that kine made. he was the embodiment of what needed to change in america. he let himself -- and made himself a sacrificial lamb so that america could see that the constitution that this country bestowed upon as people would be a living evidence of what the

country needed to stand for. he would be very proud of what barack obama was able to do, becoming the first african american president, and he would be greatly happy to see how the country has come together in some many ways on some many levels. we are all americans and in the event that something happened to this country, we would all come together, regardless of political persuasion. king would be so happy on so many different levels. host: another comment.

the the "telegraph" of london talks about this. more than 150 brand of blocks, they were shipped from china to the port of baltimore, and

reassembled by a team of 100 workman. that is from the "daily telegraph." we have video of the memorial, with a live dedication taking place on sunday. greensboro, n.c., robyn on the democrats' line. caller: the statue of dr. martin luther king is ok. it would be better to see blacks, whites, asians, and indians surrounding him holding hands. there is still racism. the republicans against democrats, nothing going on. still there is nothing for the poor people. if you are not rich, and you do not even qualify as an american. that is wrong. we have a lot of work to do.

we need to keep going forward and get rid of the republicans and democrats. there should be one union for one nation for the people. host: georgia, even on the independent line. caller: i think the taxpayers money should be spent on something more than the tax year. i know that martin luther did some good, but he would want to help out the people of the nation. host: turley savage in the kit you new york times." -- in the "new york times."

wichita, kan., good morning on the republican line. caller: i like the statute. it reminds me of bringing people together. and that is what we need today. we have been divided by or

political beliefs. -- how or political beliefs. it brings out this hatred-type thing on each other across the country. which is really disturbing, because when king march, he marched with everybody, blacks, whites, mexican. whites, mexican. that is why i really appreciate the saatchi there. -- the statue there. caller: i liked the design. it looks real good, the way they have the statue. the guy from north carolina said a while ago, i agree with what he said. i want to ask one thing here.

the bush administration. host: we will leave it there. you can also ask a question on facebook in response. cumberland, and georgia, democrats line, tammy. caller: i was calling into response have amani used to make the martin luther king heineman. it was made from people send in donations. if people would stop focus on black-and-white and do what needs to be done for the

country, we would run all whole lot better. that is what martin with the king stood for. host: the memorial, what do you think? caller: i think it is beautiful. if i was able, i'll have my son there. he loves dr. martin luther king. he is 17 years old. every year since the sixth grade, he goes around him our community and does the speech. if i had the money to be there, i would be there. host: portland, ore., you are next. dorothy, you are on the democrats' line. caller: if dr. king was alive today, his heart would be broken. in this country, dr. king stood for the trip. and the truth of it all is is that racism is as every bit as deeply embedded in this country as it has always been. the only difference we have from the time of death from the fact

that they do not hang us in public anymore, they kill us and prisons and like this up and destroy our names and take our reputations away from us and make sure that we cannot thrive in society. other than that, the only differences that we are in denial. we are lying. black people have become power down because white people do not want to a admit that they are still races. i do not say that from a point of hatred. i say it from a point that, in order to change a thing, it is like an alcoholic, that is something that has been imbedded in this country from its inception. and it does not go away with the election of president obama. and we are treating him so terrible, with so much racism, and we find people at the head of the country with so much money, promoting that kind of racism and that kind of hatred.

for profit. host: 1 more earthquake story that looks at business by the senate. they reported yesterday that the senate met briefly in a basement stair -- near union station. it is a train station. here is the unusual off-campus session. they were meeting in pro forma sessions to prevent president obama from making recess appointments. the earthquake forced the capitol to be evacuated. they had to set up shop in the nearby basement of the postal building. chris kuhn's gavel open the session. other reports say that the meeting took about 20 seconds. again, the video that the senate released to us yesterday.

savannah, georgia. on the republican line. caller: good morning. pedro, i am so grateful for the dr. king memorial. in this respect, it is so timely. in this nation there is so much stress and distrust and discourse. in this clary on moment, what he represents is of bringing on and the inclusiveness of all people there because dr. king's key legacy is that every person has the opportunity to fulfill their greatest potential. and not be subverted from doing that. and that is across the board. he was not exclusively for african-americans though we are included. but he was for all people. that is what this nation represents. i am so grateful at a time like this when there is so much division and so many

differences and people in their camps. there are common causes and what there are common causes and what a wonderful opportunity to rally around that and represent what america really stands for. host: a democratic perspective. host: a democratic perspective. see it on c-span at 11:00 this sunday. w.j." that morning will also talk about his legacy with the roundtable, talking about leaders to look at his legacy. we will be taking place a 30 a.m. this coming sunday. florida, good morning to matthew on the independent line. go ahead, and do not listen to the tv. go ahead, you are on. he has left us. miami, florida, cecilia on the democrats' line.

caller: i am talking in reference to the statue. i think it is a beautiful essence of him, representing the essence of him, not just those look. people are getting caught up in the look and that is terrible. as far as the chinese person building a statue, god, we need to stop that. to stop that. he did not stand for that third he wanted asian, chinese, blacks, white -- he stood for all that. the money that was set in, people said in money for that stature to be built. they know that what he stood for stands for something. and what we're going through today as far as the mission, the political thing going on, black and white, against our president, he would be really heartbroken because he thought we had, long way. -- we had, a long way. people -- we had come a long

way. where the ones that built this country, on the working people of america, he we are the ones of america, he we are the ones that go to work every day in the big businesses. we made this country. host: from 2009, "usa today" ran a story with a smaller model of the "stone of hope." and the accompanying story.

it goes on to talk more about the story. you can see that story from the associated press back in 2009. new york, independent line. brandt, are you there?

caller: sorry, i had it on you. before i make my comment, that article there, i cannot leave that there. there was a article about the king children addressing that. it talked about that whole situation being mishandled by dexter king. that money would go to helping renovate the king center sends people were donating for the memorial. donations would obviously be as much because of the economy. that right there, when the media does things like that, without does things like that, without really giving the perspective, when there was a response to

that, that is what is wrong today. host: i appreciate the ad on. go ahead. caller: i want people to note that there are many facets to dr. king and what he stood for. dr. king to me was the quintessential american. he played by the rules. he thought, he demonstrated, what you do in a new democracy. he fought for the rights of people, he challenged the government, unlike some many people, democrats and republicans who listened to c- span and i hear all of these people that are staked out on their political ideology position that they basically got from talking heads on television, whether msnbc or fox. they are devoid of any critical thinking.

thinking. dr. king had the courage to fight for what was right. he fought for working people, he fought for poor people, he fought against the system that oppressed people, for the rights of people. again, for all of us to come together and realize that we are all in one boat. and the corporate elite and the media elite, they are on a totally different level playing field. until americans understand that unless the americans come together, no matter what persuasion, sexual, religious, whatever the case may be, and understand that the people made the difference. martin luther king galvanize people. host: a couple of business stories, one from the "washington post."

we go next to orlando, florida. ken on the democrats' line. caller: this is just a tremendous program this morning. and specifically the question, how it impacted me, it motivated me to be responsible and accountable. and what i mean is, self-worth and that pride can and the dignity of being a part of this american system. and they stand for nonviolence. i think one thing that with a broken his heart, to see that devastating action of us in our communities and how we are murdering and killing one another. another. i think we have grown , and we have growth pains.

however, however, i spent 22 years in the service and i am a retired military veteran. i acquired the rank of first sergeant in the army. i have lived in the american dream and my wife won the lottery. we have had money. i have had a taste of it all. but i am looking to establish but i am looking to establish that fact that martin left not just a legacy but he left a perception to me that i can do better. i can act better. i can serve a better in this land that is open and free to me. host: from 2 q the wall street journal -- "all street journal."

there was a sharp pullback in new orders and shipments contracted. there was slowing activity elsewhere in the world. a story in the federal page of the "washington post." the u.s. postal service could save $1.2 billion a year -- charles in pennsylvania.

you are wrong. caller: my name is laurie and i am from shaker. is this pedro? host: this is on the air. caller: i am sorry. what i want to say about martin

luther king, it is a wonderful legacy. but the african had slavery, and we know what happened to the native american indians. but we had a martin luther king who helps us to stay focused and remember the millions of europeans that fought and died right alongside us for our humanity, for justice, for love, and we have to remember that when we listen to the victory all the comes from the republican party. they do not represent the consciousness of white people. they are just a small niche trying to get a vote and confuse people. and when i hear martin luther king, he reminds me of all the goodness, all the humanity in people of all races. and that peace is the way to

grow, peace and love is what is going to get us out of that. host: of of twitter. pine bluff, ark., dorothy on the independent line. caller: the important thing is that the republicans have caused a class warfare debate that is pitting rich against the poor. and martin luther king was a man of consciousness and equality. if he were alive today, he would not go against this rich against the poor kind of thing. you should try to help the masses and the people. and the republicans come up with this thing the rich against the poor, is not fair to the american people. host: 10 year anniversary of 9/11.

this story. hartford, north carolina, go ahead. beverly on the democrats aligned. caller: i have a lot to say but i will make it short. dr. king would have been very proud that we finally voted in a black american. however, however, he would turn over in his grave if he saw what was going on in congress today.

the blatant head of the industry -- and bigotry is still there. poor people getting kicked around, his last march was supposed to be the poor man's march. and he was not able to make that, of course. he was murdered. this is still the same country, the same country. it is the same old people without the white robes. i am sorry to say this. host: from the "usa today."

one more call, marianna, ark., the democrats' line. caller: i want to tell you that dr. king had a real impact on my life. right now, jim crow esquire physical alive and well. i was demonstrated against in the federal courts. there was a black judge in st. louis who told the eighth circuit court of appeals that if he had been a white judge, they would not have ruled against him. him. they file their refusal on him. what i did, i filed a refusal on him and he and his wife had a defendant in the case. what the eighth circuit did to me, they discriminated against

me and would not let this judge -- there were five of the judges recused in my case. he said no facts on the table why he would recuse them. but a black judge, the eighth circuit told him, you're going to have to tell this white man why you will not refuse. why you will not refuse. host: anything about a legacy of dr. king? caller: i am going to keep going and not give up. host: the "guardian" about a fall of tripoli. there is still no sign of the dictator. how are next guest takes a look at what happens next if a transitional government happens. anthony cordesman is our guest. we will be right back.

♪ ♪ [church bells] >> notice the color of the bourbon, the pretty amber color. that is all coming from the char on the inside of the barrel. this is where bourbon gets all

of its color and a lot of its flavor. currently, they have discovered over 200 chemical flavors just in the oak and the char from the barrel. >> this weekend, we highlight frankfort, kentucky on book tv and american history tv. life, violence, corruption, and renewal. crawfish bottom. kent masterson brown on the life of a ninth kentucky cavalry soldier, john porter. trace distillery, one of only four distilleries in operation during prohibition -- for medicinal purposes, of course. the first 2 statehouses burned to the ground. stop by the third, the old state capital.

this weekend on c-span2 and c- span3. >> the c-span networks -- providing coverage of politics, public affairs, nonfiction books, and american history. it is all available to you on television, radio, online, and on social media networking sites. find our content anytime through the c-span video library. we take c-span on the road with our digital bus and local content vehicles, bringing our resources to local communities. it is washington your way. the c-span networks -- now available in more than 100 million homes, created by cable, provided as a public service. >> lots more video of the candidates, political reporters are saying, and track the latest campaign contributions with c-span's website for campaign 2012.

twitter feed and facebook updates, candidate biographies, and links to media partners in the early primary and caucus states, all at c-span.org /campaigns2012. >> "washington journal" continues. host: anthony cordesman to talk about the current goings on in that libya. the front pages are talking about colonel qadhafi. what should people know about the citadel complex? guest: this compound has been on their heavy attack. -- under heavy attack. we are looking at least two areas of heavy resistance, possibly four in tripoli. but the one that has never been challenged by the rebels is between tripoli and benshazi.

we have all kinds of numbers that people are generating but no facts as of yet. but until the rebels go down there, talking about the collapse of the gaddafi regime is -- cannot be taught about. this is a critical oil and gas exporter. it has a major impact on oil and gas prices. that affects jobs, the american economy in every sense, and not simply because we import oil and have to supported prices. but some many manufactured goods is from asia are dependent on all flow of oil. this is not an abstract issues like human freedom. directly impacts our economy and our daily lives. host: there two perspectives on

this. expect a fast return to the oil market, and then in the pages of the "new york times," the rebels promised to restore production within months but most say will take at least a year. guest: many experts have said a year. but virtually every estimate made in iraq was wrong. indeed, our estimates today in iraq after seven years, we still do not know how quickly they can bring production online and renovate the fields there. it takes months to survey combat damage. if it has been serious, everything depends on damage to items with critical lead time. there is no one in the oil companies reporting out there. an expert without information, shall we say, is something of a limited expert.

host: 01 it comes to political structures, what lesson could be applied to libya? guest: let them do it their way. do not rush and with dix's based on our political system and culture. do not try to dictate things like the constitution and early on in ways that may not suit their style of governance and could present problems for years or decades afterwards. work with the moderates, work with the reformers, do not discriminate against people simply because they happen to be muslim or islam. really get into it for the long haul. use levels of aid that they can absorb rather than rushing in with too much shade for waiting too long to give them the things that they really need. host: our guest is here to talk

about libya. if you want questions the telephone numbers are on the screen. you can e-mail questions and twitter is available. and applebaum puts it this way. guest: that is good buys. we need to remember that we have already recognized the transnational council. they are sovereign already. the assets they have overseas are controlled not by us but by the u.n. sanctions committee,

although there are some assets we can release. we're not there alone. there are arab states, the united arab emirates and others, and france and britain have forces on the ground in terms of special forces. so we are a partner in the structure of assisting them. we are not in charge. host: when it comes to specific money, is that a formal partnership that the u.s. can give? guest: it is important because as we learned in iraq and afghanistan, it is not the largest projects that help, but getting limited money in in a hurry to provide critical advice and assistance, often technical, not trying to dictate policy. it is putting in a strong in the sea as quickly as you can. it is providing military advisers because they have to restructure their entire security system.

they cannot do that or go through the contract in process. they cannot provide that kind of money. and often when it is a matter of basic reform in economics or government, seed projects can carries -- helped change. that is what helps, not flooding the country with money. host: you mentioned the military. what is their role in a transition? guest: it is critical. you have a very large military establishment. it is powerless and most of the people are gone. but you want to know what happened said that equipment. you want to train libyan officers, the libyan command, and make it responsible to the civilian government. we need to remember there are large structures in libya for which we have no american equivalent.

paramilitary security forces, helping to replace them with the policing there really has ties to their concept of the rule of law, but a ball off protect the people rather than abuses them -- these are important forms of aid. and in working with our allies, we can have a major impact quickly. host: changing those allegiances to gaddafi as well? guest: gaddafi could never trust his own military part of it was tribal, some of it was a mercenary, but do not think in terms of soldiers. there are at least as many people in the internal security structure to repress the people as there was a neat uniforms. host: our first caller is from the republican line. caller: i appreciate you guys. their subject matter on libya, and our involvement, there is

strictly speaking, we are spending a lot of money over there. just like we are in america, and everywhere else in the world. but we do not address the problems that caused the symptoms. it is going to let dr. and asking him to solve the symptoms when he wants to solve your problems. and the problem is overpopulation. they're criminals in the world, the women in the world who are over breeding. dr. king washat's a criminal. he commented insurrection everywhere that he went. guest: let me say something about the realities in libya. the population is 6.5 million. that is not a high population for a country with the size and resources of libya by any

extent. compared to an empty desert, the rate of growth has been high. but with its oil resources, and certainly sustain the population that it has. the problem under the adoptee is that he created a country with all of its gas and resources where basically one-third of the population was at the poverty line or below it. you had something like 30% unemployment nationally. for years unemployment was about 45%. none of that is a matter of population growth. but it is a warning to americans and everyone that it will take years to restructure this country. you have to create a modern economy out of a fantasy by someone who dealt with his own comments of economic and governance. it will take some help in the process, but i do not think it is a problem of overpopulation.

certainly to ever say that population is somehow the fault of women in, and men are not connected, it is shall we say a little in different to the realities of biology. host: what is the message that the transitional government has to send to the people who were writing? guest: they have to say that these are the realities and we cannot do everything at once. we do understand and we are turning to the world bank and the imf and outside countries. we're going to make real economic reforms. we are going to create jobs. here are our plans. do not have unrealistic expectations. hold us accountable to the fact that we are making these things work. and when it comes down to the $30 billion that are outside, we're going to work immediately to use this money as best we

can, but we have to remember that out of that $30 billion, only $3 billion is a liquid assets. there cannot be immediate miracles. host: any sense from the transitional government that that is the message they want to send? guest: they are so focused on creating internal order, it has not sent that clear message. but it is made it clear it understands the need for outside help in the petroleum sector and that it is focusing on the education. it does not have any plans and there are no real groups inside the country to measure what can be done and wind. host: shreveport, louisiana, you are up next. caller: i was thinking that -- i am a first-time caller for excuse me for being a little something.

i think that as a whole, we should not keep trying to put our complexions on other countries. i think they have a good idea of a leading from behind, because we played too much world police. am i making sense? host: we very clearly have a mission where we are relying on a national council, british and french allies, and working with arab states, and where we have had strong support from arab straits -- states. a lot of the reforms we are talking about have been recommended by arab experts and arab economist. i think you are right. this is an arab -- an area where we need partnership. host: staten island, good

morning. miles, a republican line. caller: good morning. guest: good morning. caller: are remember the analysis and your guest gave during the invasion of iraq. if anyone in libya is listening to mr. anthony cordesman and his u.s. friends, it will be a cold day in hell. it is time they listen to people in their own country. it is time not to listen to you europeans, you americans. you have created chaos, and i think it is a shame. he should be ashamed of yourself, mr. anthony cordesman.

guest: frankly, you were not listening to all word i said, so it's hard to reply because most of your comments ignore everything i have said. host: cleveland. michael, democrats line. caller: i just want to know what the concern of the moslem brotherhood would be if they came into power? i am also concerned about c- span.o[unintelligible] should think. guest: the muslim brotherhood is not a movement inside libya. there are islamic movements and other protest movements, but libya is fundamentally a tribal society, and the politics are not islamic against secular, as much as tribal. it is certainly a moslem country with almost no minorities.

i do not think we are talking about that kind of problem. certainly, al qaeda is active, but it is a very small group and has not played a major role. the real issue here now is these people have no experience in political parties or politics. gaddafi insured that. none of the people have ever governed before. they will need a lot of help. the more of that that comes from within the arab world, the more as a matter of partnership to the world bank or the u.n., probably the better, because it is that brought effort that will help them help themselves. host: what is the potential the next leader could be gaddafi- like? guest: very, very little. none of those figures have emerged over the last four

months. the real problem has been how do you move forward from the vacuum that gaddafi created? can there be a strong man in emerging if this council fails? if you do not get tribal agreement? that is a risk, but not a current risk. host: when it comes to political structure of the constitution, when elements should be there? constitutionday's does not exist. it is a meaningless document gaddafi attempted to draft as a result of the green book. the reality is constitutions are not, in most of the world, what cupboards or shapes the political structure of the nation. it is the -- when governs or shapes the political structure of the nation. rushing out to write the robbed constitution before the libyans can decide what they want and do

with their way is precisely what went wrong in iraq and afghanistan. you created a legal framework that did not suit the country without consulting the people that live there. this time, if you are going to have a constitutional exercise, take the time. get a structure of government in place. create a legal-reality based on what the libyans want, rather than dictating from the outside. host: our guest is anthony cordesman. detroit, michigan. tim, independent line. caller: i would feel better if they came out and said they wanted the oil because to say they are doing this for humanitarian reasons is ridiculous. when i heard britain, france, and nato was involved, it turned

my stomach because these people do not give a damn about africans. they won his gold and his oil and his money. guest: you have incredibly inefficient national oil company dictated by gaddafi where they have the largest oil reserves in africa, producing at something like one-third of the rate it was before gaddafi came to power, and has immense potential to benefit its people. whatever happens, it will not be a matter of europe or anyone else taking their oil. the fact is the structure of that country and all the oil deals in libya are basically the same kind of market-determined deals that any country is going to have that benefit that country to get it revenue streams. does the world need oil exports?

of course it does, but as countries moving into libya, will they have to compete on markets, and give would be of the maximum benefit to actually get any type of partnership or award in libya? the answer is yes. the transnational council has made it clear. they understand how the market works and how to operate to their own advantage host: the council for relations says it is time for boots on the ground in libya. would you agree? guest:, whose boots, to do what? rushing in peacekeepers, to keep what peace, where? are we going to return to africa? we have some competent african peacekeepers, and some very bad ones. they take time to deploy, and virtually all of the money has to come from the outside. the u.n. does not have pools of

experienced peacekeepers. putting peacekeepers into a country where you do not know the requirements, where you have not gotten rid of gaddafi, where you have a whole group of armed tribes with only a token presence of outside military advisers and trainers is not going to be the solution. where would you put them, among other things? in every city? do you put them in the south? do the police the tribal areas? one of our problems is we have a list of solutions, and we will have people listing them and recommending them, before we know any of the fact. i think a little patience would help. host: what are your thoughts on the likes of the mission in libya, considering what was told in the beginning and how long it would take? guest:, all of the formal

mission consists of air support to the trans national council, and to keep gaddafi from humanitarian abuses. we have no presence on the ground except possibly a covert presents from special forces to the cia. the french and british have been more open about having special forces, but that is not a nato mission. under law, the moment gaddafi is gone, it turns back to the un. the economic structure is operated through the u.n. sanctions committee, which would presumably then shift to a u.n. mission in support of economic aid, and then you would have national missions through embassies. nato's mission would disappear entirely because they are not in the business of assisting government or providing economic aid. host: tampa, florida. good morning. larry, a republican line.

caller: everything mr. anthony cordesman says it is troubling -- cia, united nations running libya -- but the thing that troubles me the most is that i read that $10 billion of libya's assets have been confiscated and seized in the united states, but why would imf and world bank funds be used when the bee is one of the wealthiest countries in the world? guest: having a handful of intelligence operatives, if we do, is absolutely vital. trying to deal blind with an ongoing crisis and revolution without intelligence operatives in the field is remarkably stupid. the u.n. does not run anything. the u.n. does have legal authority in terms of the sanctions. that is part of the resolution that kept the money from gaddafi.

at the moment gaddafi falls, the problem then becomes transferring the money back, so the u.n. would not operate anything. the world bank and the imf and do not have to fund libya, but the world bank has the most advanced capability in the world to provide economic planning to a country who had a low that it leader, when forced the concept of tribal, arab socialism with islamic overtones in ways that crippled the economy, and made this an extraordinarily or, we structure, which needs a lot of help and advice to make the kind of transfer to a market-driven comedy efficient economy that can benefit the people. -- economy -- driven, il efficient economy that can benefit the people. host: from twitter --

guest: the question is first, when we talk about the saudis, what kind of troubles? one of the odd things about saudi arabia is that it has the highest rate of government investment in things like education, health, housing, jobs, of any arab state. how much trouble will they run into if they consider to -- continue to provide these benefits for the people? i have no idea. is it will be rebook -- evolution and not revolution. every country is different. every country has problems with very young populations -- jobs, creating a more stable structure politically, creating a better economy, a better distribution of income, but each has to be dealt with differently.

violent cases like libya -- even if you consider the upheavals in egypt, there is no parallel in dealing with them as if there are the same thing. if things happening in syria, and we see, for example, president aside stay on, we will have to deal with syria differently. americans have to get used to this. these are strategically critical countries to our economy, and they are undergoing a change that will not end in the spring, summer, or the fall. we have half of a decade of instability in the countries which dominate the world oil exports. host: they generally fall under the term "arab spring." guest: one of the foremost air

economists headed the term because the spring was a kind that brought heat and sandstorms and and not understand how the west could see this as seasonal. host: you see progress? guest: i do not know. one of the insights gained is a banker that handed out the history of 1848 in the revolutions in europe. it is important most of those -- to remember most of those revolutions did not grant what people wanted. we when into world war i for the same forces operating for change and the same resistance in many countries. one does not need to be optimistic or pessimistic. one has to admit nobody can be a profit. they will need a limited amount of assistance, but each one will play out differently, and those that succeed will be the countries that can help themselves.

host: detroit, michigan. mohammad, our independent line. caller: i have to be in total disagreement with the guest. basically, it is very untruthful. anybody that knows anything about libya -- libya is one of the most of civilized countries in africa. one of the things going on is they trekked muammar gaddafi, and turned into such a monster. he had the power to organize africa and bring them together s one. if they undermined muammar gaddafi, and paint this picture of a monster -- in libya, all of the citizens have a home. the oil revenue is beneficial to

all of the libyan people. anybody in libya who wants a job has a job. in america, there are over 50 million people out of work. they made gaddafi into such a monster. they use the u.n. as a secret military to overthrow the government. his bid in that position ever since they established the united nations. he is a secret military in place to overthrow a government that will not except america's democracy. host: a perception of gaddafi, inside and out of the country? guest: all the figures i have referenced are those reference by every source, not by the u.n., and not by the united states. we have an unemployment crisis in this country, but when we say the bridge before the fighting began, the average population

was 24, that level of unemployment was over 40%. when you have that outcome of -- that amount below the poverty line, and with a massive amount of uprising's brutally suppressed by force, and we talk about gaddafi helping? by doing what. by invading chad? by his adventures in terrorism? by supporting extremist groups in africa? by trying to juggle african politics in ways that brought him political power inside africa by bribery and moving money that did not go to his people's bac? i think the libyans have voted

clearly in terms of their own future, and they did not need anyone from the outside. as for the u.n., it is interesting that you should hear the myth that un has -- that the u.n. has military forces from the left, rather than black helicopters from the right. host: from the associated press -- guest: my favorite was earlier on when he was talking about the rebels been dominated by young men high on nescafe, mail, and drugs.

nescafe and milk are not drugs, but if he ever comes back, he could enforce that. i think it is obviously critical that you provide some kind of jobs and security as soon as possible. you certainly are not going to have to disarm those groups and the best way to do that is to create those jobs and to transform the economy. we have to be very careful not to simply create false jobs and false positions, or simply pay people to hold weapons. host: for anthony cordesman, jacksonville -- jackson, north carolina. arlene, democrats line. caller: the gentleman says "we"

alot, as though he has something to do with what will go on in the country based on the european involvement. what if, since they have so much riches in oil, they decide they will raise their rates in the coil, and used that money to distribute to the people, so they do not have to have a job, they can live nicely, and thus that money in or out of the country, which they could invest that money in or out of the country, which they could invest that money i their out of the -- they could invest that money in or out of the country, and nobody is going to be poor, and what could the united states or european union due to the country if they decide they do

not want to help democracy? this would be the type of government they want, that the government is the people, and frommoney that is made the land. guest: this is a matter of basic math. people think about oil wealth without figuring out what those exports and comes due in terms of per-capita oil wealth. it is not a matter of simply dividing the oil wells by the population because it costs a lot of money to produce and export that oil. certainly, libya has the money to make life far better for its own people, but they will simply -- they will have to work. they cannot simply pay them to have a decent life, which is why so many will have to move out of poverty, unemployment, or government-subsidized jobs that

offer them no future. when it comes down to what they can charge, they can only charge market prices on a global basis. that is fine from the viewpoint of all of the importing states, whether they are europe, the united states, or china. libya cannot charge more than other countries do. can they make life better than other countries have? yes, but it takes investments in government and economics, and they did not have to do it our way, but they cannot do it khaddafi's way. host: you said we need to rethink the way --

guest: the problem we have in dealing with the war powers act is you have a massive debate in the building behind you, which is always coupled with a sincere concern that congress gets the reporting and transparency it means, and inevitably partisan politics. the problem, often is not the formal legal structure, it is that the president does need to consult with congress, basically seeking the consultation with the leadership that provides a full picture of what we are doing. he needs to work with a select intelligence committee, so in covert operations there is a prompt and exact transfer of data without compromising or risk in the nature of operations. he needs to inform more clearly, not simply the congress, but the american people and the media, so you do not get conspiracy

theories about the money, or a total misunderstanding of what our intention is apparent when you have procedures that focus on that kind of communication, and set realistic benchmarks for when you need legislative action -- efforts for vasco war powers reform have not -- for the war powers reform have not been like that. in the last few days, there have been background briefings on the scale of the u.s. air operations in libya. i think they have been sincere and honest, but they use different statistics from the ones nato has. if you compare them, you could create yet another conspiracy theory, simply because they are not formally communicating and providing the level of data people need. host: how would you rate the

president's performance in libya over robb? guest: i think it has been good. what i like to see more decisive action in terms of the libyan people? yes. can you blame that on the united states? now. -- no. a lot of this was dependent on britain, france, and made all. what i like -- natal. what i have like to assume a better u.n. resolution? of course i what. did the united states do when i -- what they could to get the right sanctions and u.n. resolutions? yes. when you have opposition from russia and china, they cannot do this unilaterally, so it is not perfect performance. it is not very good performance, but in all parents it is -- in

all fairness it is good performance. caller: i have to apologize for all of our callers for expressing a great deal of cynicism, but after our absolute in-your-face criminality in the invasion of iraq, and our imposition of our neo-liberal crap on them, and that was not democracy, by the way, and it turns out barack has been about oil -- iraq has been about oil. oil is what iraq is sending to us in great quantities, as they are the seventh leading supplier of oil in the united states, and it has made people like ray hunt

or $4 billion. it is all of this region made all of this and oil grant. the fact you impute all may intelligence gathering to our covert forces in libya is laughable. we know we trumped up this so- called rebellion, and nato, obviously, is run by us. it is 75% financed by us. you can guarantee that after all of the dust is settled, the west will be in control of yet another nationalized oil company. guest: just a few minor realities. iraq is still not exporting the same amount of oil it did at the time and said, was there. -- said gamal same was there.

-- saddam husein was there. if this is american neo- imperialism, it is perhaps the worst form in history. just to correct one part of the record, i think everyone around jerry bremer would be deeply hurt to hear their neo-liberals, since they have been considered neo-conservatives, and the idea of their neo-liberals would probably make them froth about the mouth. like most conspiracy theories, it gives us credit for an immense amount of ability to do something with virtually nothing. i just wish we could do that internationally. it would make us so much better in terms of our ability to serve

our national interest. host: little rock, arkansas. democrats line. amanda. caller: i think the liberals have 100% chance of surviving if the conservatives, and the republicans have nothing to do with it. these people, they went to iran, iraq, and they went over there and try to put their views over on these folks. they're trying to run them out of town. i just think that they should not try to force these people to, you know -- i think they should just let people do what

they want to do. host: if i may, earlier this week, one more thing you wrote -- you said american strategy, however, cannot be based on a triumph of hope over experience. guest: i think we need to understand it is going to take a lot of patience. if we are going to let them do it their way, it will take years to produce real stability and reform. we have to set modest goals. we have to try to not do things they do not want or provide a date can not properly absorber. we need to be able to work with allies, rather than simply tell them what to do. above all, we need to listen to the libyans, and understand that there could be serious reversals. historically, there is always a lot of euphoria when the

dictator falls. unfortunately, more than half of the time, there are years until there is any kind of stability, and often the new government does not make either the political or economic reforms that are needed. so, if we are to move forward, we cannot simply rely on them doing everything without help. or, simply going and what some short-term burst, rather than have been patient, and efficient efforts. host: anthony cordesman with the center for strategic -- csis. the in our last segment we will look at medicare. coming up, the justice department is looking into practices at standard and poor's.

our guest from louis -- of from "the new york times" louise story will discuss that. >> more on muammar gaddafi's remarks -- the libyan leader says he is vowing to fight until of the -- victory or martyrdom. he made a statement from an unknown location that was broadcast a dead. his whereabouts of -- broadcast from a local tv his whereabouts are still unknown. a lot is said to be an unfair assault on civil liberties goes before a judge today. it aaw's provisions make crime to transport or provide shelter to an illegal immigrant. the national hurricane center says irene has become a major hurricane. it is now a category 3 storm and

the five-step scale with maximum sustained winds of near 115 miles per hour. the storm is expected to approach the coast of the carolinas on saturday morning. he evacuation's are already under way. -- evaluations are already under way. the federal emergency management association holds a briefing this morning. those are some of the latest headlines. >> dr. martin luther king was not a president of the united states. at no time in his life city hold public office. he is not a hero of foreign wars. he never had much money. while he lived, he was reviled, and at least as much as he was celebrated. by his own account, he was the

man frequently wracked with doubt, a man not without flaws, a man who like moses before him, more than once questioned why he had been chosen for so arduous attest, the eight tests, the task of leading people to freedom, the task of healing wounds of the nation's original sins. eight >> watch this entire event of the c-span video library. more than five years later, the more it will be dedicated in washington, d.c., live on c- span, and during the week we will have coverage of other events surrounding the dedication on the c-span networks. every weekend, his -- it is "american history tv." watch personal interviews on a

historical event. revisit key figures, battles and events during the one and 50th anniversary of the civil war. visit college classrooms around the country. go behind the scenes ed museums and historic sites. -- at museums and historic sites. did are complete schedule -- to get our complete schedule at c- span.org. >> "washington journal" continued. host: joining us from new york is louise story, the business reporter for "the new york times." you wrote a story about the justice department looking at standard and poor's. what is going on? guest: this is unusual. in general, the justice

department has been closing out investigations related to the financial crisis. standard and poor's, the ratings company, is very much alive in the investigation. this summer, they have been ramping up their inquiry. i talked to a number of former employees from s&p who have been interviewed by the department of justice, and they told me the kind of questions investigators are asking. in particular, they seem to be interested in whether s&p was raiding mortgage bonds, all of those bundles of mortgage loans before the financial crisis, is the analysts their new they were poor quality and wanted -- is the analysts knew they were poor quality, and wanted to downgrade them, but if they were over- ruled? those are the kind of questions they are asking host: was this done before or after the story

most people remember about s&p one comes to the country's bond rating? guest: that is of great interest because a lot of lawmakers were furious s&p downgraded the united states' rating for the first time in history, but the people i spoke with were interviewed months before that happened. at the very least, it has been going on for a long time. it is hard to know whether the downgrade of the united states will speed up the investigation. host: for the people you talked about, can you tell us the questions they were asked about the process of the mortgage packages they were looking at? guest: first of all, one thing that was interesting to me is they told me when the department of justice opened up the interviews, they told them this would be a civil case, not a criminal case.

you know the just apartment can bring criminal cases. they told -- the justice department can bring criminal cases, but they said they're looking for a civil case here. they also went through e-mail and instances that they have heard about where there was an analyst who said "well, we have this collateralized debt obligation that we want to write such and such way, but if we do that it will cause a downgrade ,f 50 other or 60 other cdo's and a business executive would say do not do that." when they are looking for is that evidence that these were connected. the reason this is important is because s&p and the other rating

agencies, moody's and fitch, they have always said there ratings process was independent from business concerns. it was very important that it was independent because there is this conflict in ratings where the agencies, the rating agencies, they are paid by the party that is being raided. when procter and gamble gets a credit rating, it pays them to rate them, and critics say that as an incentive to be too positive. rating agencies say there analysts are separate from business executives. so, now, the department of justice is looking to see with mortgage securities before the financial crisis, if that tiny wall broke down. host: was there one instance that set off this investigation or several? guest: there were a lot of

different examples, and the examples were still hazy. the people i spoke with did not know exact names of deals, but they had snippets of the e-mails read to them. there was one phrase they were asked about. that was "do not kill the golden goose." an executive at s&p supposedly said that. so, the department of justice ask these witnesses if they had heard this person status. investigators are clearly looking for someone that would go on the stand and say this business executive said this. host: louise story is with the bulk of the new york times" and she is here -- "the new york times" and she is here to talk about the justice department

investigation. journal@c-span.org. guest: people who pay for ratings were investors. if you were an investor, you would pay for their ratings, and then they changed that business model "washington journal so that investors could see the -- change the business model. there has been a lot of evidence that has come out that before the financial crisis, banks like citibank could create a mortgage

bond, and they could go around to moodys, fitch, s&p, and say how are you going to raise it? then, only the ones that gave citigroup an indication that they were going to raise positively would get that business. so, it is something critics say really need to be changed. the party is getting the ratings could not pay for it. joe off of twitter says -- guest: at appears justice is looking to see if the ratings analysts were overruled. after the financial crisis, there were few reforms. the three big companies were left in an oligopoly. they did not have many changes

and forced by washington. now, after the united states lost its aaa from s&p, there is momentum in washington. if the department of justice finds evidence of fraud, it is possible uc new legislation that takes a pair of scissors and cut apart the way these agencies operate. host: what we are talking about was not addressed in the dodd- frank legislation? guest: there were a few. the main thing would be that in a lot of regulations like banks and mutual fund regulations, there are requirements that they deferred to the ratings to drive how they can best their extra cash. these go back to the 1930's. in a sense, the reason these rating agencies have so much power is because the government put in all of these regulations over many decades -- and need to

use the ratings in their investment processes. dodd-frank says that requirement needs to be undone. it has already been on the mostly for mutual funds, but the bank regulators have been dragging their feet, saying it is hard to find something else to refer to. the have not done it yet, but they're supposed to do it. nonetheless, a lot of investors might still use them, so the way of doing business might not change. host: why is the justice department not looking into moodys? guest: it has been clear -- reported that they aren't looking into moodys. -- that they are looking into moodys. a lot of the business practices are similar, so we have to statement. host: let's take a phone call from new york. eva, democrats line for louise

story. caller: if all of this was going on before the plaque president -- black president is going again, why did they not investigate them? by the way, our money is what they are using any way to use all of these trades and whenever they are doing . they need to start trying to put people back to work. i do not see them doing anything with that. host: have people questioned why the justice department is doing this? guest: a lot people have questioned whether this is related to the s&p downgrade of the united states. the people i spoke with were contacted long before that. it is hard to see a direct connection. the s&p has been threatening for many months that they might

downgrade the united states. there are a lot of investigations now in congress as to why the s&p downgrade happened, so maybe those investigations will turn up more evidence. i am sure investigators will look for any possible links between the justice department and s&p. host:, another call from illinois. independent line. don. caller: as i am watching the program, i am reminded of the c- span program i watched that was a committee meeting that had the three rating agencies up there, and they admitted that their ratings were influenced by the fact that if they did not give a aaa rating, they would be fired, and another rating agency would be hired. it is a real crooked game.

guest: there have been a number of hearings. they have been carefully advised from their lawyers and careful on how far they have gone from admitting -- on a meeting anything. -- admitting anything. host: if you want to see the hearing our viewer was talking about, go to c-span.org, type in standard and poor's, or a similar term, and you will get a list of hearings we have taken in on the topic. louise story, if wrongdoing is found, is there less severity because it is a civil case? guest: the punishments are less severe. typically, and jail time would come with criminal cases, not civil cases. the other big question would be

if they find wrongdoing, do they only name the company? do they only have s&p and its parent company, mcgraw-hill, pay damages? do they also named individuals? a common thread we have seen is that they do not name executives at the company for the most part. that kind of lets individuals walk away from this mess that we all went through. host: explain the relationship between s&p and mcgraw-hill. guest: s&p is a division of mcgraw-hill. mcgraw-hill has been under heat from shareholders lately. some large shareholders what the company to spin off in pieces, with their education business and their education -- and their ratings business. also in the news recently has been that the president of s&p,

who you might have seen in some of those hearings, he is stepping aside. they will have a new leader of s&p -- doug peterson. he comes from citibank. he has had a lot of experience working with regulators. he oversaw citibank, the japan division during a very intense and political time with japan and citigroup. some people say they are bringing in this dog peterson to s&p so he can better -- doug peterson to s&p so he can better and fees -- interface. host: a colleague of yours rights -- guest: that is certainly what some people close to s&p and sharma are saying, but we

need to watch the investigation to understand the full picture. host: jersey shore, and democrats line. caller: why can there not be an agency outside of the government, outside of the agencies that independently investigate? guest: the rating agencies are supposed to be independent. that is the function they are supposed to serve. the problem with the way they are paid is some folks say that does not make them independent. one thing you might see in washington is maybe legislation that takes the rating agencies back to their old model, so they are paid by people that are using the ratings to invest in things, rather than the companies that are being rated, because that is what critics

say makes them lacked independence. host: the next call, republican lines, and virginia. kim you are on with louise story. caller: i think it is too coincidental. the investigation is pure retaliation for them downgrad ing our aaa rating on barack obama's watch. the economy is in the toilet. is the first president that has our credit rating downgraded on his watch. desperate people do desperate things. when you cannot run on your record, you have to call people names, and do shoddy things like this. that is just my opinion. thank you.

host: would you add anything to that? guest: i think these congressional investigations that are looking into the reason s&p downgraded the united states will be interesting to see unfold, and they will look into evidence of connection between the department of justice and s&p. a call within s&p, the process of reading mortgages, is that transparent? guest: is really not. it really surprise me. after the s&p downgraded the united states, i thought i would call up standard and poor's with some basic questions to try to understand there transparency. i said who is on your ratings committee, making this decision? they would not tell me. i said how many people are on it? they would not tell me. i said was the vote unanimous? they would not say.

it is a very secretive process for their ratings committee not only for the united states, but the same goes for mortgage bonds. some people are wondering if there should not be more transparency because with transparency comes accountability. host: as far as the justice department goes, how long will this stay open? when did they expect to close and file a ruling? guest: they could drag investigations for years and years. they had been investigating washington mutual. they started in october, 2008, and just announced they had closed the investigation, finding no signs of criminal wrongdoing. that one took almost three years. a lot of time, they did not even announce when they close an investigation. so, the timeline is hazy. this is one of the problems with

the justice department. they are not really very accountable to the public concerns of what they looked into and what they do not. they have discretion yes -- into whether they pursue cases or not. it is frustrating that there has not been more evidence of the investigations or more explanations from the justice department about which big financial players they are pursuing, and which they are not pursuing from the financial crisis. so, we may not. they closed the s&p investigation. i'll be keeping my years out for it. they might not make an announcement. host: and other tweet -- guest: there are a lot of investors that have so much money to invest, and only a few staffers. they do rely, to a certain

degree, on ratings. that is why it had a aaa rating and it was a mortgage security, investors bought it without doing much due diligence. you could argue that this is wrong. people need to do their homework. for that to happen, you need to have a lot of ways these financial institutions work change, and that a lot of staff into the investment committees. host: margie, and our democratic line from macon, ga.. caller: did you ever watched the hearings? you sit there and tell the american people one thing, and in reality they get paid a lot more for their stocks when it is atile.l

one at times to cut the dividend payments from people like me, they sit there -- they are told to do that by bloomberg. if you watching bloomberg, they will tell you it is planned. they are a think tank. i watch republican think tanks on c-span 24 hours a day, and we cannot sell anything bad about a republican, but republicans can run us into the ground. guest: there have been a lot of congressional hearings, and the financial crisis inquiry commission came out with the lot of information about the rating agencies. actually, the department of justice criminal prosecutors and civil prosecutors cannot just take stuff from congressional hearings and plunk it in as evidence. some of the rolls would consider that here say. believe it or not, they have to

go back in and do a lot of the investigating themselves before they bring a case. host: because of this investigation and others, and the downgrade decision on the u.s. rating, has there been a thought overall from the bankers? guest: one of the most common answers i hear is that they blame the rating agencies. the problem is they do not have many alternatives. there are some newer companies, smaller companies that are trying to get market share, but it is a classic problem when you have three giants in a marked. and best -- market. investors are not sure if they can trust the ratings. it is a dilemma. a lot of people on wall street

say they want something else, but they would all have to leap off of the diving board at the same time to make that happen. host: flint michigan, joe, in the penn line -- flint, michigan. joe, an independent line. caller: has anyone ever considered that the s&p downgrade was simply a retaliation for the investigation since she said it was on going before the downgrade? could that not just be a retaliation? thank you. guest: that is definitely a possibility. again, i think the best evidence might come out of these congressional hearings on white s&p downgraded the united states. i did not have -- on why s&p downgraded the united states.

host: what is the message about doug peterson going into s&p? guest: it has some irony. citibank was one of the biggest recipients of federal bank bailouts. they really piled troubled mortgage securities on their balance sheets, and that is why the government had to give them tens of billions of dollars, so now we're looking to citigroup executives to turn around s&p. that said, doug peterson was not intimately involved in mortgage-backed securities, and has long years of experience at citibank. he spent an important part of his career in japan when citigroup was facing scrutiny over there. so, you know, it will be interesting to see what he does at s&p. it's called i was going to ask about his japan -- host: i was going to ask about his japan experience.

guest: the government there was holding all of these hearings on citigroup, and it was very tense and he did, just like right now. when you see s&p called before congress this fall, it is going to be heated, i can assure you. and doug he actually bowed in front of them to seek forgiveness. some people are pointing at that moment. i did not know if they hope he will bow at the people but they are looking for a diplomatic gesture. he will be at the forefront. it will be interesting to see if mcgraw-hill sends somebody more senior than him. it may have gone higher up at

mcgraw-hill. watch to see for someone higher up in the company. host: mark on our republican line from carson city, nevada. caller: they are tightly wound with the three major ratings agencies. the problem is all three of them have been wrong consistently. all three of them rated enron before they went bankrupt. there are other ratings agencies that have been accurate and they have been barred from his inner circle in what has become a fascist state because there is

so much money and so much big business involved. i wonder if you could elaborate on what the sec is working with with these ratings agencies. guest: you remember lehman brothers was also rated highly up until it declared bankruptcy. it is quite a list. not only these three but there is a handful of smaller ones overseas. it is a very hands-off relationship. the sec are reviewing ratings in real-time to see if there's a problem. it is unclear how many resources they are putting to that. they are strapped for resources.

one of the most important thing they have done is to rewrite some rules for mutual funds to defer to ratings. they have some rules to loosen that. there would need to be further legislation in congress to increase what the sec does in regard to the ratings agencies. caller: there have been instances where the credit agencies have been wrong. we have republicans in congress who took a pledge that there would rather drown the united states in a bathtub then raise the debt ceiling. republicans in congress said that.

host: next call is from new jersey, walter, on our republican line. caller: i noticed the investigators characterized the questions as a civil matter. the question of why they excluded the criminal investigation -- my concern is did they accidently create the miranda defense for perpetrators. guest: all i know is what the department of justice is telling people. i have spoken to that -- to those people. they declined to discuss this with me. they are telling people they believe it will be a civil matter. maybe they will turn up evidence that will change their minds. it is unclear to me.

it did get my attention. i've been looking at financial crisis and a lot of what happening at the big banks and their a been few cases involving major players in the financial crisis. the few that we have had has been almost entirely several -- civil. there was one in the spring and that was a civil matter. someone asked the u.s. attorney why it was in criminal. the case mentioned a lot of lies. the u.s. attorney said not every lie is a crime. they seem to be going more the civil route than the criminal group. this is different from the

savings and loan crisis. there are all of bank executives who went to jail. host: what was the punishment with the door to banks -- deutsche bank/ guest: it is related to mortgages that eight subsidiary got insurance on. the government said that the subsidiary missed representative the quality of those loans and said there were a lot better than they were. now those loans have been defaulting and they are costing taxpayers billions of dollars. host: what type of punishment could come down? guest: some other civil cases we have seen have come from the securities and exchange commissioner. some of their most prominent cases was a year ago over a

complex mortgage security. goldman sachs paid a $550 million penalty. that was high but it represented a few weeks of revenue for goldman. j.p. morgan and wells fargo have paid fines in similar cases. their fines have been far lower than the tens of millions, far less than the gold and payment. you might see $50 million or $100 million paid by the company. are they also asked to pay a fine? they could have their ability to work in finance suspended. watch to see if they are singled out.

host: can find to be appealed? guest: most of these cases do aend in solomon. if they go to court, they could appeal -- most of these cases do and in a settlement. we do not know if a case will be brought. they are ramping up their investigation. host: san antonio, texas. i have discussed this all lot. a lot of the fiscal stuff into thousand eight is over my head. the systematic aspect, the danger that we are in that people have addressed -- it

boils down to the fact that the government and others have insisted that banks had to purchase aaa for some reason, and that was in the regulations. if that's true, the ratings agencies in getting paid for aaa, it seems that would be a clear-cut thing. dodd-frank should resist -- it could be narrowed down to one having theon of ratings agencies do due diligence. guest: it requirement for banks and mutual funds to use ratings.

they're supposed to undo that. but dodd-frank did not address the with the ratings agencies are paid. critics say that is an essential problem here. there is one open question that has not been resolved. whether the banks gave false information to the ratings agencies about these loans in these deals. maybe the analysts did not know how bad they were. they got all the information from the banks. it is not clear if the banks gave them false information or whether the ratings agencies had the information but gave them a positive ratings anyway. we're looking to see if we get answers. host: no banks have been linked

into the current investigation? guest: the attorney general's office in new york opened a big investigation into the banks about whether they misled the ratings agencies. there are some private lawsuits with -- a.i.g. is suing a bank of america. they believe the banks gave incorrect information to the ratings agencies. they say they bought these deals because of the ratings and the ratings agencies were using bad information from the banks. host: new york, anthony, republican line. caller: as someone represents "the new york times," we know

they had some problems with capital and financing, and now you're right -- you write a story about s&p, and you have all these no's, do you think that would irritate the parent company, mcgraw-hill? do you think they could use that story to further downgrade "the new york times"? guest: i do not think about those of business considerations. host: mavis. stories read our guest's online. the story is there on your screen. gettysburg, pennsylvania.

caller: i am interested in your story from "the rolling stone" about the security and exchange commission destroying evidence on financial institutions that they had been investigating. d.c. any relationship between that and the lack -- do you see any relationship between that and the department of justice? guest: that was an interesting report. people in congress have come out and say that they are concerned that the security and exchange commission destroyed earlier evidence. the importance goes beyond the s&p case to any financial case. over the years, if a whistle- blower or a former employer comes to sec and says open a

case and if they look at it and close it but don't keep a record, the concern is six years later the investigators cannot look at the old evidence and they may miss a pattern. so the old tips seem to be important so that is why the story in "the rolling stone" is important to see if there are missed opportunities in cases and if there are patterns at the sec because they don't have your old notes. host: rochester, new york. caller: all this stuff about the mortgages goes back to the fannie mae and freddie mac. why isn't the investigations going back to that and fighting

with the real wrongdoing was with those agencies? they made a loan to people who work below par. why isn't everything going back to that? guest: i do know that the sec has looked at fannie and freddie. we have not heard anything publicly on where those investigations stand. it's tricky now because fannie and freddie are owned by the taxpayer. it will be interesting to see if investigators go with full force looking into those companies. there is still some ongoing cases that have gone on for years with fannie and freddie related to accounting maneuvers back in 2004 and 2005, and those

are still all but -- those are still ongoing. host: nytimes.com is the website where our guest writes regularly. louise story, thank you. we continue our series of looking at aspects of medicare. we'll have that discussion when we come back. >> orders for durable goods rose 4% in july. demand for autos and auto parts was up 11%. businesses invested less in durable goods and that suggests they are pulling back on spending. fire officials in washington,

d.c., said the quake caused slight injuries and some people are forced to remain in shelters. it badly damaged the steeple at st. patrick's catholic church in baltimore and put a hole in the ceiling at washington's historic you in station -- union station. nancy reagan stumbled at an event yes today. she was walking when she apparently lost her balance. the crowd could be heard gasping as senator rubio catches her before she fell to the floor. the former first lady was not hurt. the senator was asked to speak at the library. those are some of the headlines. >> the c-span network,

available on television, radio, and online, and on social media sites. library.video we bring our resources to local communities. it is washington your way. the c-span networks, provided as a public service. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we have been looking at various aspects of medicare. we look at the history of medicare yesterday. the medicare advantage program. we wrap up our program tomorrow with proposals to bring down medicare costs. it today will focus on medicare

part d with mark mcclellan from the brookings institute. expand upon the world that you played. guest: great to be back with you. we were the agency charged with getting this important new benefit to senior is on schedule and hopefully under budget. host: what have we learned? guest: access to up-to-date coverage can make a big difference for seniors. the costs have comment lower- than-expected from the beginning and that has happened through competition. seniors have a lot of choices. i was working around the country on helping people find out about

the benefit and sign up for it. they can get the drug they needed at a lower-cost. we have seen the cost of the drug benefit has gone up much slower than expected. the impact of drugs has been a very important. there has been a recent story which found getting part d coverage to seniors lowered their cost of other medical services. it is an important way to get more up-to-date care. we involve beneficiaries with the choices and it does help them get the coverage they needed. host: what does the average senior debt in terms of prescription drugs? guest: it is around $30 a month.

it provides coverage for a broad range of prescriptions. typically singers sign up for a plan that gives them access to a generic drugs. for preferred-brand name drugs for things like high blood pressure and cholesterol, there are a number of drug plans available. $30 a will be $25 to dollars month. they get to keep most of the savings. host: the kaiser foundation had these statistics.

host: do those numbers track what you follow? guest: it was capped at $1,000 or $2,000. it helps keep costs down. host: what goes into the lowering of costs? guest: one thing people like to focus on is the price of drugs. it seems high, especially for some of the new brand-name drugs that, n come out. prices came down something like 8% or 10% on average.

people can switch when they find they can get something else to meet their cost. something like nine out of the top 10 most common medications now are generic and there as safe and effective but the cost less. seniors can get that savings. if you switched from a brand name to a generic drug company $70 asave $60, 7dollars month on that prescription. that is been a big part of the savings in this program. use of generic drug has gone from 55% to close to 80%. host: 80% of the financing comes

from general revenues. is that fiscally a good place to be? guest: all the medicare benefits have this mixture of premium payments by beneficiaries. something like 25% of the cost comes from premiums paid by beneficiaries. congress has changed that a bit. low income seniors pay almost nothing for their prescription drug plans. higher income seniors pay more and that will probably increase in the future. host: our guest has is a bachelor's from the university of texas and a ph.d. in

economics from mit. first call is from minnesota, and ginger on air democrat line. caller: what i would like you to know is that -- can you hear me? guest: i can hear you just fine. caller: we heard about part bdm, and people to not get it or understand. he made out like a ban dit. my medicine cost me $72 per month. after part d came through with the doughnut hole, between five

$600 a month.$500 and that is a bad, bad plan. guest: you are a good example of just how important medicines are for people, especially seniors with chronic diseases. as you probably know, the recent health care reform legislation that was supported by democrats than republicans like the previous medicare bill was, didn't do anything to change the structure of the program. overall, satisfaction rates of this program are very high. the costs are much lower than expected and it is having an

impact on getting access to medicines and keeping costs down. congress thought the cost would be much higher, so there was not coverage provided in the doughnut hole. what the 2010 legislation did it was fill in that don't conut ho. that will get better and better over the coming years. it is essential that we take steps to make medication as affordable as possible for people like you. it does have such an impact on your health. host: medicare part d is the topic today. it costs about $50 billion for 2010. she mentioned the doughnut hole.

we have this break down as far as the cost. host: why incorporate a structure where there is health first than the cost to the consumer and then help later? guest: people get subsidized $5 for a typically the $5 brand-name drug, then there's the gap in coverage. there is a lot of controversy around passage of this law.

congress felt that they could not provide a subsidy for beneficiaries all the way through. the costs of the program have turned out to be much lower than that. the 2010 affordable care act provided an extension of coverage for other americans and it did not change the structure of this program. the democrats did not want to change that. it seemed like it was working for most people. they did fill in that coverage gap. that will provide changes in the numbers you just described in the years ahead. that does come as an additional cost. it more government spending on

subsidies for medicare. we're looking at increasing the federal budget deficits. we have to continue to think hard about ways to get medicare costs down. host: good that come under cuts from the commission now will look at that? guest: it could. they are making medicare part d more income-related and making it even better integrated with the rest of the benefits. if you use drug coverage effectively, you can keep down lots of other medical costs, like pkeeping people out of the hospital. medicare needs to be -- they

need one payment for doctors and one payment for drugs and there is some good ideas on how to do that. host: this is one idea on twitter. guest: part d covers drugs that are administered by doctors. both programs all-out pharmaceuticals to be bought in bulk. part d is drugs that you pick up and your pharmacy, with a few exceptions. the drug plans to negotiate a bulk programs. medicare part d has a price based on medicare based on the average price the drug plans are charging now. it does not help give seniors the benefit when they find less costly ways to meet their drug

needs. most of that money goes to you. get toart b, you don't keep much of that savings at all. that is not a good recipe for getting everybody engaged in what we have to do, to make medicare work. medigap is the supplemental insurance for part a and part b. it allows people to fill in the big gaps. it keeps people from being able to save money, like they are able to do with part d. host: chattanooga. caller: when my mother was living and she was an assisted living and she was on drugs, but

then the assisted living and nursing homes where it there on the continuous drugs, they cannot take evanish of the 90- day supply -- they cannot take advantage. some states require these drugs to be blister packed. none of these suppliers provide this service. you have to go to the local mom- and-pop drug store to get it. according to the laws in part d, you take the 90-day supplies. i do not understand why you have the different tiers between the

different suppliers because you have to look at real close in making your decision. you may have a cheaper premium, but there is value for the drug insteadmay be at tier 2 of a tier 3 and it could raise the cost. guest: thanks for the question. this has been challenging because those patients typically take a lot of drugs and it's not like going to your pharmacy and getting a 90-day supply. nursing homes can get in the way. medicare is sorting through a

lot of these issues now. the long term care pharmacies at the nursing homes and the nursing homes themselves have done a lot to try to address the problem you raise. it is important -- if you're on part d, it is important to look at the option and see where your drugs sort out. there are tools at medicare.gov. they work with paging companies to help -- they work with aging companies. it is more work. the advantage has turned out to be much lower cost. people have been able to look and switch when they find plants that lower their cost for the drugs that they personally need.

it can deliver those drugs and a much lower cost if everybody was cynne one size fits all program -- a one zize fits all program. by your being involved in helping your mom make those choices, you then responsible for helping keep the cost of this program down and to help make sure it develops -- to make sure it delivers the drugs that people need. patents are not shorter for drugs overall. there are some special rules for the newer drugs that are designed and are based on a more complex structure to target specific kinds of cancers. congress have tried to deal

with this. on the one hand, you want to encourage the new product that can help people live longer and better lives. you want to make those affordable. so this is it that trade-off. there is a continuing debate in congress about whether its a bit longer were shorter. we need some patent protections so we can get these new drugs. it takes a lot of time to get those drugs developed. the patent protections are an important part of making this happen. that is a good question. the cost increases have been lower because of competition between the plans and seniors

taking the time and effort and working with doctors and friends to make different choices, to use generic drugs more and to compare tiers. the veterans administration has not done as much of that. the cost growth has been different between the two programs. host: jaime on the republican line from texas. caller: good morning. i am 65 years old and i am on disability. i am a lincoln republican. i want to know, why should we have to pay -- why should a black man have to pay anything -- we have put in a lot of work. why we have to pay anything. guest: the way the program is

set up is that most of the cost comes from subsidies by medicare. people are worried about the country being able to sustain. more people reach the age of 65 and there are more medical treatments available in the years ahead. that is true for people with limited means. people from different social economic backgrounds -- you have a tough family history. people get all of the cost paid by the medicare program because it is so important in keeping people healthy and avoiding those other costs. the general view is that we probably cannot afford to pay those kinds of subsidies for everyone. we need to focus the most health on the people who need it

the most. those who are least able to afford the medicines they need on their own. this will be a big issue as we try to make the medicare program sustainable and affordable. host: a question from sasha. guest: the states pay part of the cost for low-income beneficiaries. the coverage for people who are over 64 and not medicare have low-income. the states make a payment for a portion of the costs of the drugs for those dual-eligible beneficiaries. some states have programs that wrap around or add to the medicare part d benefit.

plus these are these contributions from the beneficiaries. host: next call is from iowa. caller: mr. mcclellan, i would like to ask that we do little short order inspection of insurance companies and how they are handling this tier business. i am on medicare part b and i take a drug for diabetes. when i first went on medicare part d, it was tier 2 drug. that drug should go generic a year from now. on july 1, they have you by the nexck. they said the drug will now be a

tier 4 drug. the retail price is over $300 a month for 30 pills. the copiague will be -- the co- pay will be 60 bucks. some of the pan drugs are not included in anybody's insurance. it is not covered in part d. i take a lot of that. it is due to the physiological and not mental disorders to control and the regular card. -- to control and irregular heart beat.

guest: the second issue about that drug he mentioned is a good one to write your congress about. the legislation did exclude those drugs from the usual partd d coverage. those drugs are typically not covered. they are not part of the medicare program and it goes back to the with the legislation was set up. i think this is something that people should think about generally when they are taking medicine and one that is on a higher tier. the plans do have some restrictions on when they can switch from a lower to higher tier. if you are on a plan that has a drug that you need and i hired

tier, you may have to do some shopping for your medicare plan this year, but you will be able to find one that puts it on the lower tier. if you were unlucky to have a drug in this one size fits all plan and put it on a third or fourth tier, you would be stock and not able to get the drugs you need at a lower cost. this will go down to $5 on the part d plan. caller: this plan -- my husband became disabled in 2002 with a pituitary thing which is sort of

a rare occurrence. he takes 16 pills a day and could have been disastrous for us had not been for medicare day. my suggestion with the previous caller is that you start now getting on line and call in numbers. that is the only way to get a better price. we have united healthcare and it costs us $30 a month, my husband and i. it is a lifesaver. host: how many options did you have? caller: we had several options. we moved here from georgia about four years ago. our plan continued from united

healthcare and we didn't have to check out any state regulations. host: there was a map and some had -- guest: 30, 40 choices and that is not unusual. this work a lot of health care spending is and the drug plans know if they do not compete, they will not be able to keep people like katie. she made a couple of good points. the cost of the program being much lower than expected and it is easy to meet those needs is why the program is as popular as it is today. the satisfaction rates in part d is over 90%.

you need to be involved. you have to look at the choices. it is more work. you can save a lot more money this way. there are lots of places to go for help. medicare.gov online. lots of resources in your community that can help you out in getting the drug that you need for you or the person that you love. host: wichita, kansas, cliff. needs toost per peill come down. it is -- we saw a special.

we pay for all this. we save 40%. i know that we should be able to $2 pills down to 20-lls cent pills. guest: there is a lot of bulk buying going on now. that is one reason why cost of this program is lower-than- expected. i think there are going to be more steps as part these drugs go generic. branding drugs are expensive here because the united states is a financing most of the research and development for the world for the benefits that these drugs bring to everyone.

not just for people in the united states. i hope that is an issue we can keep working on addressing. there are some good ideas for making the process go faster. that means more lives saved and a lower cost. that is an issue that is not quick and easy to develop in medicine. it is an important issue to distract -- to address. host: $185 billion. part c, $116 billion. guest: we do consume a lot of drugs and that is not

necessarily a bad thing. there is more and more evidence that getting people on recommended treatments for all kinds of chronic conditions -- high blood pressure, diabetes -- can improve their quality of life and could help get our cost down elsewhere. as you mentioned, part d is a small part of the overall medicare spending. we need to focus on squeezing down prices for hospitals or four physicians. it doesn't work. we have a big problem without medicare is paying physicians. this causes problems in quality of care. we need to get beyond these silos. prescription drugs can be a big help in lowering the cost. that is the way to go. host: it was put in under the

bush administration. guest: the main thing the new health-care law does is to make it bigger. the new legislation provides additional federal government subsidies to people in that nut't hall -- in that do hole. that percentage is going to get lower under the new law. that will add to the cost of the medical part d program. the cost is running about 45% lower than projected. those costs have gone up a bit because of the new subsidies. preventing health problems --

there is much more work that we need to do it there. host: elaine from rhode island. caller: i have two questions. i have supplemental through united health. we belong to a group. i have injections every three months. they are over $3,000. i am paying approximately $4 a mon00 a month for the supplemen. i have to have it. we went to united health and they said i had to pay the whole thing and then they would reimburse me. it.y do pay a i have to have the highest in

order to pay $2,000 a month for this medication. i have one other question. on medicare and medicaid, are they allowed -- you pay for the nursing home and everything. if a person has cancer and has never been told by her doctor that she had cancer until it was too late, the lawyers captain don and i just settled. medicare and medicare have settled. it was kind of a shock for her children that they were being sued. is this the right thing to do? guest: it sounds like a complicated and very sad situation.

there are some people who can help with that. medicare has an ombudsman line and you can get the information at medicare.gov. it is designed to help beneficiaries sorts through issues like who pays for wihat. many states have health programs for sorting out how benefits. maybe those steps would help. on the first issue of additional payments that you have to make to get a plan to fill in the donut hole, it will shrink down over the next few years. it will not make a huge difference in your cost this year. they will get lower next year and the year after that as it eventually gets closed down. keep looking at alternative

plans. even though you're in a plant that seems to work, there are other plants out there and some come up with new way -- even though you are in a plan that seems to work, there are other plans out there. take another look. this.ve money writing baridingn make sure you're on the best plan to meet your needs. host: we have a post on twitter from maverick. guest: that is different from a single payer. seniors are banding together and choosing the plans they like that year.

i administered the program for quite a while. it is diverse -- the singers are diverse. they range from 90 years old and healthy to people with the most complex and ill patients with five, six, eight conditions and on many, many medication. this plan has to work for all of them and it has to stay up-to- date. price regulations for that. it has the drug benefit. the more that we can get seniors actively involved in making this program work for them, which they can do it in part d. it is not perfect. everybody would like to pay less for their medicines.

it has made a big difference in keeping costs down and improving the quality of lives in singers. i like to see seniors building on what they are doing in part d. host: marysville, washington, on our republican line. caller: hello. host: go ahead. caller: this gentleman -- well -- host: i will put you on hold. west chester, pennsylvania. caller: i am calling about the obamacare, or the if the fact that obamacare had on my

personal insurance. i paid $100 deductible instead of $300. i was paying $6 more a month for my coverage in 2010. i paid $100 deductible for generic drugs and whenever the tier was, $600. i am paying 25% + $300 on the generic drugs. i am only getting generic drugs now. he donutached te hole, the only help a would have

gone was 75% off the tier drugs. it ended up costing me more. guest: that sounds about right for the experience with the new feature as a result of the affordable care acct. -- act. it will have a bigger impact on donut hole in the years down the road. it is a trade-off. great job on looking at your medications and talking to your doctors and finding a way to lower your costs. you're saving a lot of money under part d. it has helped you keep your costs down, it sounds like. there will be more help in their later. later.