any time at the c-span video library. the c-span networks, it is washington your way. >> now from new york city the life of thomas e. dewey is profiled in "the contenders." >> governor thomas e. dewey of new york republican knowledge knee -- nominee. makes a plea for world peace and striking at communist elements in government he draws big audiences. next step is across america. he makes another stirring bid for the northwest ballots. it appears he has at least one ardent supporter. those are some of the finest specimens. we will know soon. november is just around the corner. >> president truman continues

his swing around the circuit meeting former vice president garner in texas. he gets a prevent which he said he will have on the white house lawn. he arrives at the home of cactus jack and gets a warm welcome. in san antonio he visits the alamo historic shrine of texas independence. in austin a big crowd meets him as he continues the campaign for the lone star state's 23 elect tor -- elect storm votes. he says the republicans don't want public unity. visited with the former speaker of the house same rayburn. at fort worth hundreds of thousands turn out as he vows to bring the southern vote back in to line. >> dewey defeats truman the families photo from the 1948

presidential campaign. we know that harry s. truman won this election and his rival new york give thomas e. dewey had to accept defeat. week we're live from the roosevelt hotel in new york city which in november of 1948 hosted the republican party's headquarters and new york governor thomas dewey's presidential campaign. he used this suite, number 1527 whenever he was in new york during his 12 years as governor and he and his family and his closest aides gathered in these rooms on election night. joining us is richard norton smith historian, biographer of dewey and author of many books. it is november 2, 1948, at the roosevelt hotel. what happens here? >> well, the day began with virtually unanimity in the nation's press corps that this

election was over, that it was thomas e. dewey's to lose. there were polsters who had stopped polling shortly after labor day they were so convinced there was no contest, really. governor dewey and mrs. dewey went to vote at midday not far from here. they were cheered all the way. he got out of his car and decided to walk back to the hotel. reporters thought that was a good sign. it was the new dewey, the thawed dewey, the warm, more personable dewey that they had seen on the campaign trail. they had a election night tradition of having dinner with their friends roger strauss who was a publisher. they went there for early dinner. while they were there, some disturbing returns came in from connecticut in particular.

and dewey had relied upon accountants as anyone else to onvict mobs teters had great respect for the numbers and the numbers were out of sync for what the polsters had predicted. that was the beginning of a night-long ordeal. the secret service sent their top acts here. they thought he was going to be president like everyone else and went on and on. and about 3:00 in the morning, the agents began to slip away, which was their nonverbal way of communicating a truly historic upset was taking place. at one point before dawn the governor of new york poked his head through that door and said to a friend, what do you know, the little son of a bitch won.

his formal concession came later in the day. >> before he looks out the suite and sees the secret service gone, there is a confidence at the roosevelt hotel. describe that. >> the confidence was based u n upon, understandably, based upon the fact that there was a consensus among people on the right, people on the left, not only that dewey was going to win -- this is what is fascinating. because when you see that iconic image, the fact is dewey, to a lot of people today is remembered primarily as the man who snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. but if you read the contemporary press everyone from drew pearson to walter whitman to the alsop brothers not only expected dewey to win, they had praise for the campaign he had run. they thought it was statesma

iftesman-like, high tka-mind ad fact had a lot of criticism for the campaign truman,had run against him. to the it is a fascinating show of how journalism can be supervisor seeded. >> we want to show when the returns are coming in thomas dewey's campaign manager and the confidence that he and the campaign had early on. >> dewey's headquarters in new york sham p champagne flows fre. the first returns were truman in the lead but the republicans are not worried. then republican campaign manager brings good news. >> we now know that governor dewey with carry new york state by at least 50,000 votes and he will be the next president of the united states.

>> why were republicans so confident they could get the in anyone 48? >> by the way, carry new york state was no small feat. it was the first time in 20 years that a republican had managed to do it. new york was the cradle of the new deal, the home of roosevelt liberalism. so, for brownell to predict that victory was in the air was perfectly understandable. 1948, what we didn't know going into 1948, what 1948 confirmed was america had become a new deal country. the death of franklin roosevelt had ended one presidency, but the approach to government, the expectation that government would be more involved, for example, in ensuring process prert, that government would be -- prosperity.

that it would be used to fight economic downturns in the 1930's and 1940's and whether you believed about the success of the efforts but nonetheless the assumption was when f.d.r. died the new dell died with him and the -- the new deal died with him and the relationship between the average american and his government turns out that was not the case. on election day 1948, americans enjoyed record prosperity and employment. the reason the republicans, in spite of that thought they could win in 1948 is simple. harry truman. we forget today but truman in his first term was a very unpopular president. the crack to err is truman. there was talk about the little man from missouri. someone dwarfed by the ghost of franklin roosevelt.

truman had a very difficult assignment. every president after a war has the process of readjusting economically, culturally, thing a agricultural sector. all of that came due on his watch and the consensus in then 46 and 1947 was that he was not handling it well. it was so bad that republicans took congress in 1946 which of course only fed their expectation that the presidency with fall into their lap that years later. >> how were republicans viewing the truman administration at this point heading in 1948? >> that is a great question. the problem is there was no such thing as the republican. that was part of dewey's problem. the republican party then much more than now was split almost evenly between the eastern establishment, the old teddy roosevelt wing, charles evans profiled earlier in this series was very much in

that tradition. dewey represented that in the 1930's and 1940's and into the 50's and then dwight eisenhower. opposed to that were the conservative midwesterners, many isolationists who rallied around bob attachment the son of former president. ironically president taft who with t.r. precipitated the split in 1912. that had never really healed. in 1946 when the republicans took congress it was the conservatives who became the face of the party. on the other hand you had people like dewey, many of the governors, for example, who were much less hostile to the new deal, more willing to work with its premise. >> thomas dewey ran, lost but changed mill history. dewey lawful being his

campaign and the dark launch being his campaign. >> we are going to run a campaign to unite all america. on january 20, we will enter on a new era. there will begin in washington the biggest unraveling, unsnarling, untangling operation in our nation's history. >> what do you make of what he says there, unsnarling? >> that goes to the heart of dewey's strength and the perception of truman's weakness. dewey, after all, had been give of new york for several years and he had untangled and unstpharpld and unravel -- unsnarled and unraffled a lot of bureacratic cob webs. he had taken what many would see as a hybrid of conservative and liberal ideas to make government

more responsive, in some ways to make it smaller. taxes were reduced to make it friendlier to the private sector. what he had done in new york he proposed to do on the national level. one critical element that sets dewey apart and that is civil rights. dewey is in the forefront of that issue. new york state is the first state in netwoamerica to pass antidiscrimination legislation. and dewey took that very seriously. it did not necessarily meet with universal agreement either among republicans in new york but it is something he cared about. >> we are talking about thomas dewey's campaign in 1948. we will be joined later by thomas dewey's son. he will join us and taking questions and comments. we will take your phone calls this evening. so you can start dialling in for richard norton smith.

we are working our way back from election night. let's go to the fall campaign and issues that are there. is truman popular? >> truman is not terribly popular at the beginning of the campaign. it is a curious reversal of what we have seen since then. the president was less popular than his policies. in other words, people were perfectly content with record high employment. but they didn't necessarily attribute it to harry truman. of course, global issues were a huge factor here. one of the things for which dewey has been criticized in retrospect but at the time was widely praised was running the campaign of national unity in which he tried -- first of all, the idea of bipartisan foreign policy is part of his political legacy. it is something that began when and john foster dulles in the 1944 campaign and he for example supported truman on the air lift

to berlin and supported truman on recognizing the state of israel. at the same time, he wanted to increase the defense budget by $5 billion. there is no doubt that he would have -- he supported the marshall plan but he would have asked more questions before just turning american tax dollars over particularly to left wing governments in europe. campaign in many ways that is what we claim we want in a candidate. it wasn't hitting below the belt. there was not a lot of personalities. there was not a lot of name calling. and the critics said even then it is dull and lacked specifics. >> is that showing up in the polls in a dewey versus truman,hypothetical? >> the popular notion is dewey

drowned in a sea of complacency he was taken by surprise by what happened in the suite that night. th he was the first political candidate to have a full-time polling unit. he listened to the polsters. he had a real appreciation of their art. he was well aware of the fact his led wad was slipping. there were people that came to him the last 10 days of the campaign and he acknowledged that the lead was slipping. to one he said but remember never talk when you are ahead. >> what happens next? are the democrats behind trum , truman,are they solid in their unanimity? >> i will tell you who was solid behind truman. one contributing factor to dewey's loss. the congress will passed taft hartley act and organized labor and saw it as an attack on many

of the rights and privileges through the new deal. and it put dewey in an awkward position. by and large he agreed with much of the bill. at the same time, he's the governor of new york. this is a labor state. this is a liberal state. and so in some ways he was walking a fine line there. but what the taft hartley act did is energize organized labor. 1948 was probably the single election in which organized labor played the biggest role in america and in race after race after race the democratic ticket ran ahead of harry truman, in part because of truman's relative unpopularity but also because organized labor to a man turned out in record numbers and voted democratic. >> who are the other players in the democratic party at this time? candidates. four you have on the left former vice

president henry wallace, who believes truman started the cold war and he is insufficiently attuned to the possibilities of peace with the soviet union want on the far right you have strom thurman who waoubgtd of the democratic -- who walked out of the democratic convention because hubert humphrey introduced and passed a strong pro civil rights plank. so the conventional wisdom was that this would hurt truman. that he would lose votes on the left and right. in fact what it did is make truman the man in the middle. and neither thurman more wallace turned out in the end to have anywhere near the impact that it was believed they would have. >> the economy at the time, what is it like? >> that is truman's great strength. as i say, record employment, and

more than that, what truman did very shrewdly in his campaign he ran less against dewey than the ghost of herbert hoover. the fact of the matter was a democratic president riding crest of prosperity in the fall of 1948 could point a finger at the republican congress and in effect suggest to people -- and truman was not bashful about doing it -- if you return republicans to complete control of the white house and congress, you can expect to see a return to the economic policies that produced the great depression. and it was not that long since the great depression. people's memories were very sharp. and that came into play. >> what about the role of communism in this campaign? >> it is fascinating because dewey had taken some heat in 1944 for introducing this charge

f.d.r. had inadvertently allowed communist influence to take root to some degree in his administrati administration. 1948, and i think we have a clip -- >> yes, we will show that. >> the first nationally broadcast presidential debate around shall the communist party in america be outlawed and thomas dewey, the old prosecutor, takes the simple libertarian view that no, it should not be outlawed for reasons that he he is pougsed. -- espoused. his opponent harold stassen took the position that it should be outlawed. it was a turning point because that is the same year alger hiss is introduced to the american people and dewey has to figure out how to handle the issue.

>> we will get to that debate a little later coming up but first i want to show our viewers what tom dewey had to say on communists in anyone 48 and get your reaction. >> we have communists here in our midst. some people jeer at it as a red herring. some get panicky about it. i don't belong to either group. we must neither ignore the communists nor outlaw them. if we ignore them, we give them the cloak of immunity that they wa want. if we outlaw them we give them the martyrdom that they want even more. we will, in the government we get next january, we will keep informed and we will keep the american people informed where they are, who they are and what they are up to. >> that is classic dewey. someone says setting up the

straw men of the left and right and carving out the middle of the road for himself but that was his approach. it raises the fascinating prospect, i think distinct possibility under the what if, had he been elected in 1948 that among other things we would have never heard joe mccarthy. mccarthy i mccarthyism would have never entered the language. mccarthy, who was in many ways a product of republican frustration over losing an election they thought was a sure thi thing. tom dewey was a political boss among other things. he controlled the republican party in the state. he would have controlled the party nationally. and he never would have allowed a joe mccarthy to rear his head. >> we talked on domestic issues. internationally what is going on in 1948? >> we are well into the cold

war. dewey is again supportive of the marshall plan. he supports nato -- i mean he supports -- the overall truman -- truman had reorganized the war department, defense department, created the c.i.a. to some degree he had put america's economy on a cold war footing. dewey is supportive of that. if anything he believes that we need to spend more money on our defenses. he also thinks we have neglected conservative forces for example charles de gaulle in france who is out of power at this point but who is seen as a bulwark against communism in france. dewey thinks that a creative american diplomacy could put people like that to good use. >> how does he difficult from the other prominent republicans

in the party at the time, and who are they? >> bob taft, mr. republican, from ohio, it is fair to say, was the champion of the isolationist wing of the republican party. that is to say, the wing profoundly suspicious of international organizations like the u.n. suspicious of later on the korean war. suspicious of projecting american military power around the world. as opposed to building up american defenses here at home. former president herbert hoover would certainly have been in that camp as well. dewey, on the other hand, is someone who had morphed as a young man being a quasi-isolation ills and o-- isolationist.

and he became a champion of bipartisan fortune policy. >> what is the impact of that attitude on all of his bids?ential he runs in 1940, 1944 and 1948? >> it was statesman like but it didn't win him many votes. it didn't win him the pressey. in 1944 there was a significant conflict between dewey and f.d.r. even though dewey agreed to the idea that politics stops at the water's edge they disagreed over the united nations and specifically would the united nations have an army that it could employ without first securing the permission of member states like the united states. and roosevelt said yes, he supported that. dewey was not supportive of that. and he said later on roosevelt won the election and his has proven that i was right.

>> you talk about the divide there in the republican party over this international issue. do they come back together in time for the 1948 campaign? do the taft and dewey wings come together? >> it was papered over. but in fact it was very shrewd on truman's part to see that as the achilles heel that republican unity was unity in name only and to try to almost eliminate dewey and suggest that if you vote for this man what you are going to get is bob taft and the midwest conservative party and dewey did very little. he and taft despised each other. their rivalry is one of the great intellectual and personal contests in american history. it is on the scale of jefferson and hamilton. it is about something.

it is not just personal ambit n ambition. it is about a different view of government at home and what the party stands for, a different view of what abraham lincoln's legacy is and a defend view of the future. >> we are live from the roosevelt health in new york city talking about thomas e. dewey, our eighth contender in the series looking at those folks in american history who ran, lost but changed political history. we want to get to phone calls. first is brian in springfield, illinois. go ahead. >> good evening, thank you for the series. mr. smith, we miss you very much in springfield. >> thanks. >> i have a question about 1952. i remember reading about an illinois senator everett dirksen who was a taft support terror and the convention that was here in chicago, he went up to

nominate taft and wagged his finger at dewey and said something like you led us twice down the path to defeat, don't do this and of course taft lost the nomination to eisenhower. what role did dewey play in getting eisenhower to run and getting his people to picnicsen and what -- to pick nixon and what role did he play in the fall campaign? >> he was instrumental in getting eisenhower in the race. i will tell you a story. when eisenhower at this point was over in paris, commander of nato and he really didn't want to leave. he didn't want to come home. he didn't want to sully himself by campaigning teufpl for the until -- actively for the nomination and at one point dewey wrote a letter, no copy exists, his secretary for 37 years told me the story and he writes the letter. she mailed it.

it went to general eisenhower in paris. in it dewey says if you don't come home and actively seek this nomination, my fear is that the delegates will nominate douglas mcarthur. that was the ultimate hot button to push with dwight eisenhower and shortly after that letter was received he heard the call of duty and came home. you are right when you talk about the split between taft and dewey. it was never more apparent, more dramatic, thatten that night when dirksen wagged his finger and said you tooks down the road of defeat twice. dewey, however, had the revenge because the next night was able to announce 87 of 92 new york delegates for eisenhower. finally, yes, he was more responsible than anyone else for nixon being on the ticket. he spotted nixon as a young

talent, first in the hiss case in 1948. he brought him to new york to speak to the annual dinner of the republican party, which was a tryout. when nixon finished he sat down and dewey took the cigarette holder out of his mouth and said make me a promise, don't get fat, don't get lazy, and some day you can be president. >> we will go back to that later on in the show and talk more about thomas e. dewey's legacy in the republican party and what he was able to accomplish even though he did tphnot, was not successful for the white house. first we hear from michelle in kansas city, missouri. >> good evening. did the dewey campaign actually exploit truman's ties to the pendergast organization in kansas city? some of the things that pendergast did back then helped truman actually get to where he was.

>> that is a very good question. no, they did not. that was part of dewey's approach which was very consciously to stay away from personal attacks, to keep this thing on a very high plane. some would say vapid, content free. certainly, very little resemblance to a modern attack campaign. >> let's go back to the primary. we worked our way back, fall campaign, general election. let's go to the primary. set the stage for us. who else is running? >> well, of course, bob taft is running and has a substantial following, not just in the midwest, but throughout the country. harold stassen, who, before he became something of a comical figure, who ran every four years to various levels of disdain, was, in fact, a very formidable candidate. and then you had arthur

vandenberg from michigan who reminded a lot of people of the old fred allen character, senator foghorn. he was the quintessential sort of potbellied and pompous -- but he'd become a statesman. arthur vandenberg had undergone this conversion from isolationist internationalist that tom dewey was to emulate, so you had -- it was a pretty distinguished field and it was by no means a sure thing. one other person who wanted to run although he never formally announced his candidacy, was douglas macarthur who was in the jungles of asia but his agent in wisconsin saw to it that his name was on the ballot and of course, one other candidate, who went to wisconsin, and saw his campaign end there, was the 1940 nominee of the party, wendell wilke.

>> let's talk about the impact of the oregon primary and the debate you touched on earlier. why is it important? >> it's important for a number of reasons. first of all, i'm sure it's on youtube, i'm sure it's easy to get. anyone who is watching what passes for debates at the moment among the republican candidates, or, quite frankly, who has watched the fall "debates" in recent years between the opposing parties, i would just urge you, go and listen to the dewey-stassen debate. it is as close in a modern context to lincoln-douglas as anything could be. it is not a collection of sound bites. on the contrary, it is an opportunity -- i believe it was an hour -- for these two men to develop thoughtful, opposing viewpoints on a very critical and very polarizing issue in america, and to do it in a way that raised the public standard

of discourse as opposed to lowering it. >> we have a little bit of that debate. let's listen in and we'll talk about it. >> there's no such thing as a constitutional right to destroy all constitutional rights. there's no such thing as a freedom to destroy freedom. the right of man to liberty is inherent in the nature of man. to win it, and to maintain it requires courage and sacrifice and it also requires intelligence and realism and determination in the establishment of the laws and the systems of justice to serve mankind. i submit that the communist organization in america and in the freedom loving countries of the world should be outlawed.

>> here's an issue of the height moral principle in practical application. people of this country are asked to outlaw communism. that means this, shall we in america, in order to defeat a totalitarian system which we detest, voluntarily adopt the method of that system? i want the people of the united states to know exactly where i stand on this proposal, because it goes to the very heart of the qualification of any candidate for office and to the inner nature of the kind of a country we want to live in. i am unalterably, wholeheartedly, unswervingly against any scheme to write laws outlawing people because of their religious, political, social or economic ideas. i'm against it because it's a violation of the constitution of the united states and of the bill of rights, and clearly so. i'm against it because it's immoral and nothing but

totalitarianism itself. i'm against it because i know, from a great many years experience in the enforcement of the law, that the proposal wouldn't work, and, instead, it would rapidly advance the cause of communism in the united states and all over the world. >> richard norton smith, what's the impact of this debate on dewey's primary bid? >> in the immediate sense, it won him the victory in oregon which was absolutely critical. he had fallen behind. he had gone in as the pre- emptive favorite, having been the nominee in 1944, and then stassen had done well in the early primaries so it all came down to this extraordinarily dramatic confrontation over this one issue. that's dewey at his best. and there are a lot of people after the fact who thought, if he had only talked like that with that degree of specificity and conviction and credibility,

until november of 1948, that maybe the result of the election would have been different. >> how many people are listening to this debate at the time? >> 60 million. 60 million people, it's estimated, tuned into the dewey-stassen radio debate. >> and the role of radio at that time? >> radio was the chief medium by which the news was disseminated and of course this is another aspect of tom dewey. he had come to new york in the 1920's, not necessarily wanting to be a lawyer. he wanted to be an opera singer, which surprises people, and you heard his voice. it's a very cultured voice, a very trained voice. some people thought it lacked spontaneity, but it's also true that it was the one republican voice that, on the radio, was able to hold the magical franklin roosevelt to something

of a draw. >> what if people could have seen that debate? would it have a different outcome? >> that's a great question. dewey liked television. dewey thought television was -- it was like the courtroom, you know, it was -- as a young man, he had become famous as the man who broke up the rackets in new york, who was the gangbuster and inspired all of these hollywood movies and radio shows like "mr. district attorney," and if you think about it, a television studio is not terribly dissimilar from a courtroom. the strength he had in the courtroom, the ability to make his case, to connect, whether it was with a jury or with viewers, there are some early television kinescopes in his third race for governor, for example, where he is very effective in front of the camera and i think he probably wished, in retrospect, that he could have run the 1948 campaign in front of a television camera.

>> let's go to the g.o.p. convention in philadelphia in 1948. how did he get the nomination? were there ballots? >> yeah, in fact there were several ballots. dewey is the last republican candidate who required more than one ballot to be nominated. even though he had turned the tide, if you will, in oregon, there was still determined opposition led by, above all, senator taft, and to a lesser degree at that point harold stassen who made a name for himself as a so-called boy governor of minnesota in his early 30's, a real prodigy. of course, dewey was a real prodigy. anyway, it took, i believe, three ballots. and then of course you had to pick a vice president. and he wanted earl warren who was a very popular governor of california, and warren would not agree. four years later, he would, to his regret. but instead, to unify the party, dewey picked the governor of ohio, taft's friend, fellow

conservative, a man named john bricker, and one of the slogans was, "the war will end quicker with dewey and bricker." >> let's get to a phone call. marvin in los angeles. go ahead. caller: thomas e. dewey was a reasonably young man in 1953 and he, of course, was very influential in general eisenhower running. was dewey offered a job by eisenhower? after all, his v.p., governor warren of california, was offered the job of chief justice. >> that's a great question. yeah, there is some debate over it. i believe he was informally approached, shall we put it, you know, about the supreme court. when you stop to think about it, really nothing else made sense, except perhaps secretary of state and there he had the next best thing, maybe better, his long-time political ally and

his kissinger, john foster dulles. one of the things about dewey that is often overlooked is the extent to which he brought into the american political process a whole generation of very talented people. i mean, dwight eisenhower, richard nixon are the most obvious, but there's a whole host of people who would remain, some of them here in new york, but others, kim hagerty was the white house press secretary, to this day regarded as the best press secretary in white house history. he earned the job in new york under tom dewey. herbert brownell, the attorney general under eisenhower, was dewey's campaign manager, and the list is a very long one. >> richmond, virginia, you're next. caller: hello? >> you're on the air, go ahead. we can hear you. caller: i'm sorry, can you hear me?

>> we can. caller: it's an interesting subject. this was the first presidential election, my mother, a life- long republican, voted in and one of the things she told me was that she found dewey unattractive because of -- she mentioned his greasy hair and mustache. my main interest was understanding the role a future major player in the democratic party, lyndon johnson, played in this election. >> well, l.b.j. tried to get elected himself to the senate in texas so he was not a significant factor in the national, in the presidential race. dewey's appearance is revealing in a number of ways. dewey was someone who, i think, today would be in despair of the handlers. dewey could not be handled. there were people throughout his career who said, you know, tom, if you'd shave off that mustache and get your teeth

fixed. he had a couple of missing teeth from a high school football scrimmage. well, he kept the mustache and kept the teeth, or the non- teeth, for a simple reason, francis dewey liked him the way he was. but you're right, there are times when people, in print, compared his appearance to charlie chaplin or adolph hitler, and in 1948 or 1944, little brown mustaches were probably not a terribly politically potent weapon. >> let me give you a look at the 1948 g.o.p. convention in philadelphia when thomas e. dewey accepts the nomination for president from his party. >> there's been honest contention, spirited disagreement, and i believe, considerable arguments. but don't let anybody be misled by that. you have given here, in this

hall, a moving and dramatic proof of how americans, who honestly differ, close ranks and move forward for the nation's wellbeing, shoulder to shoulder. /[applause] let me assure you that, beginning next january 20, there will be team work in the government of the united states of america. when these rights are secure in this world of ours, the permanent ideals of the republican party shall have been realized. /[applause] the ideals of the american people are the ideals of the republican party. we have, tonight, and in these days which preceded us, in

philadelphia, lighted a beacon in this cradle of our own independence as a great america. we've lighted a beacon to give eternal hope that men may live in liberty with human dignity and before god and, loving him, stand erect and free. /[applause] >> thomas e. dewey, our contender this evening, accepting the g.o.p. nomination at the convention in philadelphia in 1948. we are coming to you live this evening from the roosevelt hotel, where thomas e. dewey, in 1948, was here with his family, with his closest aides to watch and listen for the election results to come in.

joining us now is thomas e. dewey jr. sir, bring us back to the 1948 convention. were you there? >> no. >> you weren't there. >> no. >> what were your father's -- what do you think it meant to him to win that nomination both in 1944 and 1948? >> you know, i'm not going to be able to answer that because wanted't talk about who what and who was going to do what. we were teenagers and we were in school and my parents, neither of them, was particularly forthcoming about, i really want that, or no, we won't do that. it's just, you went forward and did what you were supposed to do or what you thought you were supposed to do. >> and what were you supposed to do in 1948 during the campaign? what was your role?

>> student at albany academy. >> did you participate at all? were you part of commercial ads or were you out on the campaign trail with your family posing for pictures? >> no, no and no. >> and why not? what was the dynamic there? >> we were in school. that was our job. his job was government and politics and we were, you know, the kids. >> what did you talk about around the dinner table, though? i mean -- >> not much memory there. i think maybe more of what we're doing. we didn't really talk about what was going on in the campaign and that kind of thing. >> it wasn't a household suffused with politics. >> no, it was not. >> even after he lost in 1948 and 1944, years later, did he ever talk to you about politics? what do you remember him saying? >> he was not very reflective

about that. >> he wasn't? >> no. >> what about your mother? what do you remember her telling you about politics? >> no memory of that. >> do you have memories of the campaign in 1948? >> not really, no. >> no. >> were you here on election night? >> yes, yes. >> what's your memory of that? >> watching returns, being sent to bed, and the next morning, i forget, it was relatively early in the morning, i do remember dad coming into the bedroom where john and i were, in his bathrobe and said, well, we lost. and that was that. >> didn't talk about it after that? >> no. >> just said, "we lost." >> right. >> do you think it was something he carried with him? i mean, as a ball and chain,

the rest of his life? or did he, in fact -- i mean, there are people who move on and that's that. but -- >> well, ball and chain, no. i don't think he ever thought very much like the biography you're currently writing. he never thought, oh, well, that was something i could have done differently. maybe he did, but we didn't hear that. he went on to do his job, which was being governor in new york, until -- and fully hoping to retire in 1950, which he, then, his sense of duty, when the koreans went to war, his sense of duty impelled him to, you know, take four more years out of what would have been a very good legal practice, and run for another term, to make sure that he could hold his republican coalition of mostly governors, many in the

northeast, together to get a non-taft candidate in 1952, which he thought was necessary to get the presidency. >> it's consistent with what you say, that i think might surprise people, is that your dad, in his early days, certainly never thought of himself as embarking upon a political career. that is to say, someone seeking office as a way of making a living. when he first came to new york, it was at columbia law school, and a friend asked, what do you want to do in life? and he said he wanted to lead a great law firm and he wanted to make a hell of a lot of money. and he did it, but there was this 20-year detour along the way called politics. >> 24 years. >> what kind of man was your father? >> in what respect? >> i mean, you know, what was his style like? how would you describe him?

>> how might he surprise people? the images have come down, the man on the wedding cake and the stereotypes that have been produced by and large because of what happened in 1948. if he were to walk in that door, what would it be like to be around thomas e. dewey? >> well, you know, it's a type that i think i'm not sure we see anymore. he came from a small town in michigan. his father had died, as you know, very early in life, and he had a very strong mother, and he emerged from michigan with what used to be called the protestant ethic, and those ideals, and they never changed. >> he was a workaholic? >> he was that. he was that. i mean, he loved his golf game

and he loved his farm, but he was taken on to do four or five different jobs and each one he did well enough so that the next one came along. >> one thing, i guarantee you people don't know, in 1937, after his success with the gangbusting, breaking up the rackets in new york, getting luciano, for example, john foster dulles tried to hire him at sullivan and cromwell for $150,000 a year. >> 100 is the number i remember. >> ok. in any even, a lot of money. >> yes. >> and he was drafted, literally, drafted to run for district attorney for new york county for the grand sum of $20,000 a year. >> right. >> we're going to get to the rise of your father and how he came to national prominence, but, richard, given what tom

dewey jr. has said about his father, take that and describe for us his campaign style. >> it differed, frankly. it's interesting. for someone who has sort of been often caricatured, he's actually a much more dynamic campaigner. when he ran for district attorney, for example, in new york county, new york county was one county and there were people all over the burroughs of new york city that day who wanted to vote for thomas dewey. thomas dewey wasn't on their ballot. he had electrified this city with his exploits taking on the rackets. and because new york, even more then than now, was the heart of american communications. you had the loose press. you had, obviously, the radio networks. i mean, to become a phenomenon in new york meant potentially a national phenomenon.

tom dewey was the inspiration, i don't know if you ever saw the movies, but hollywood was cranking out a movie a week at one point in the late 1930's, inspired by his exploits. in 1939, 37 years old, the district attorney of new york county, is leading franklin roosevelt in the gallup poll by 16 points in a mythical matchup. it's hard to imagine. it went beyond hero worship, but it's hard to imagine -- i can't think of anyone since. i mean, lindbergh, in his own way, in his own sphere, you know, at one point had that kind of universal appeal. but your dad is still, i think, a unique figure. some people compare rudy giuliani as a prosecutor to your dad.

>> rudy does. >> i was going to ask you. what do you make of that comparison? helet's leave it at that does. >> ok. >> no, there was an aesthetic there and the good baritone voice and of course the courtroom theatrics, which was perhaps -- certainly was a revulsion against the excesses of the 1920's, which were still very much in memory at that point. >> sure. >> and against the continuing mob scene headquartered, in many respects, in new york. >> and the alliance between the mob and the political machine. that's what, i think, people often miss. there was a relationship of mutual dependence that maybe

grew out of prohibition. jimmy walker, you know, had not been out of city hall all that long. as a boy, in michigan, your dad had it drummed in his head by his father that tammany hall represents all that is evil and who could have predicted at that point, you know -- there's one other aspect, one quick thing about your dad which was clearly a limitation in an era of popular campaigning. what your godfather, arguably his best friend, elliott bell, an economics writer for the "new york times," would have been secretary of the treasury in a dewey administration, when he left the administration to make some money, governor dewey's counsel came to him, looked at the letters drawn up to mark the -- and he said, you know, these are all wrong.

they're too formal, there's no intimacy here, there's no warmth here, and your dad said something to him i think is so revealing, he said, i'm not going to display my emotions in public. >> ok, i was not privy to that. but that surprises me not at all. >> there's a kind of integrity to that but it's also a political limitation. >> we need to -- >> yes. >> we need to go ahead to election night, 1948, because we want to talk about his national prominence coming up here. so what happens? what are the results? >> well, the results, truman is re-elected by about two million votes. he has a rather healthy -- i think it's 303 to 189 in the electoral college. if you look at the electoral map in 1948, it would be of very little resemblance to today's. dewey swept the east.

he did very well in the industrial midwest. he lost the farm belt and he always said, when people asked him to explain 1948, he said, you can analyze the results from here to kingdom come, the farm vote changed in the last 10 days. >> how did wallace and thurmond do? >> they brought up the rear. thurmond did carry several southern states, 39 electoral votes. wallace came in fourth and did not carry any states. >> what about the coverage of that night, the media's covering it? how long does it go? >> it's really the first election where television is a factor at all. it's a fairly minor factor, but the nbc studios had cooked up this huge model of the white house and they had, interestingly enough, they had a parade of donkeys all ready to go through and around the white house as soon as the formalities were observed and your dad was proclaimed the winner.

no one had thought to weigh in a supply of democratic donkeys. they had republican elephants, rather. that, in a nutshell, is what the media expected that night. >> richard norton smith and tom dewey jr. are our guests tonight. as we take your calls live from roosevelt hotel in new york city. our next discussion here is about his rise to power, his national prominence. and part of that is his role as a prosecutor. here's a little bit from his 1937 bid to become district attorney in new york. >> you've been given a most difficult task, but an opportunity to be of great help to the people of this city. what can we do for you? >> i need a small squad of detectives who will go to work on this job as they never have

before, who will know that the mayor and the commissioner are behind them personally all the time. >> is everything set? >> he's got a full list. every gangster in the mob is launched this minute. >> any sign of a leak? >> they don't suspect a thing. >> it's 10:00 tonight, pick up the 15 ring leaders first. here are the sealed orders for the men. >> with crack new york detectives, dewey's roundups were skillfully directed. mob after mob were taken by surprise. simultaneously all over the city, the underworld wases rounded up. >> we have made a real start on cleaning the gangsters out of new york. for 20 years, the underworld has preyed on our people and robbed them and then frightened them into silence. but now, the day of fear of the gangster is coming to an end.

>> richard norton smith, how does he become a prosecutor? >> well, as tom said, went to university of michigan, law school, came to new york originally thinking -- he loved music, a life-long love. i think he was surrounded by music growing up in michigan. and actually, that's where he met mrs. dewey, as well. she had a love of music. eventually he settled on the law and wound up working as assistant u.s. attorney. a man named george medali who was his mentor trained him above all in thoroughness. the dewey hallmark was we talk about him as a work alcoholic. in one of the early cases, i mean, he had his men go over 100 -- they traced 100,000 telephone calls and 200 bank slips in -- 200,000 bank slips

in order to get a boot lerg name waxy portman proprietor of the eureka company in many ways symbolic of this alliance between corrupt -- well, prohibition-defying elements and the government, local government. >> so i want to get to a phone call here. but i want to go through some names. dutch schultz. >> well, dutch schultz -- you had portman at the bottom. schultz took away gordon's empire which was largely based on alcohol. but not only alcohol. there was something called policy, the numbers game. and it was gambling for the masses. and again, this helps explains dewey's appeal across the demographic range because millions up in harlem in

particular -- millions of poor people were being taken advantage of in this game. the money was falling to the under world. doug schultz was making $20,000 a day. >> lucky luciano. >> he was the significant step above. doug schultz decided that he would assassinate tom's dad when he got too great and actually the underworld decided that was a step too far and before dutch could carry out his plan, mr. luciano took care of dutch. >> the impact of this to your family, were there threats to your family? >> well, sure. >> what was it like? did you know about it? >> no. i'm three years older than john. 1936, happening here in

1937, i'm 4 or maybe 5. and they -- being the people that they were they would not share that with us. >> what would tell you about that time? >> no. well, there was illusion to it. but one found out for oneself. >> what did you find out about that, tommy? what were they doing or others doing to try to protect your dad and your family? >> well, he had 24/7 protection and the card, a detective and a driver. i think it was later, the only incident that we did find out about was the missed opportunity to kill him. he had -- he went across the street 96th street where we live to have breakfast every morning and doug schultz had arranged to have the boys there on a morning.

and it would have been curtains, except that day he got up early and went to the office so they missed it. and shortly there after, the boys took care of doug schultz. >> do you think you weren't aware of it because your dad didn't let him bother him? just kept to his routine? was that his personality? >> yes. >> he just went forward? >> right. >> it is said -- it's maybe an exaggeration. i remember doing research for the book that your dad had developed a habit at that point in his life quite understandably that he maintained in his life. when he was in a restaurant, he would sit with his back to the wall. >> always. always. >> you remember that? >> yes. yes. i don't go back to, you know -- >> sure. >> to the 30's. but every time we went somewhere, you know, and later years, it was always back to the wall.

>> let's get to a phone call. august has been waiting for us patiently. august, go ahead. >> oh, gosh. it's an amazing story because in 1948 my family moved up to duchess county in new york. during that time i was going to school. after school, i used to work with governor dewey on his farm on reservoir road and it was amazing because his farm was probably one of the first farms that came up with automatic milking machines. mrs. dewey had a beautiful garden that she maintained for many years. i remember he had his own personal guard house in front of his mansion. and in 19 -- i think it was 64, 65, their barn burned down. they had a terrific fire, unbelievable. and i worked for little thomas ed mur row on all those farms up there in new york.

it was amazing. those farms were so large and so big, they had to raise crops of corn and we bailed hay and it was amazing. it's amazing that i was listening to this program and couldn't believe it, that i'm sitting here, i'm 68 years old and i worked on his farm bailing hay and farming. >> thanks, august. let's talk about the farm. your father ran in 1930 for governor. he loses and then buys the farm, the caller was talking about. he made a name for himself at this point. decides to run for governor. why, richard norton? >> i could always expect attribute that to his youth. he had come from a farming environment. in fact, during world war i he was too young to enlist an he worked on a farm in the owasso area.

my sense is and you thought much better that he was very happy being a dairy farmer. it was a side of him that probably would surprise the public. i'm not sure that your mother was wild about it. i'm not sure you were wild about living there. >> what was it like? >> well, we were given a choice and i guess to some extent she wasn't either. i remember he was very pleased as the caller had said very pleased to have the early stage milking machines because i remember the period before that, i mean, we -- in the very beginning when we first, i think, we rented in 1937 and then bought in 1938. i mean, people would be horrified today. we were drinking unpasteurized milk because that's one did on a farm. and then of course, when he became governor, that guard house was insisted on by the

state police down there by the entrance. but, you have -- you have a very good memory of all that, except i would not put ed murrow and ed thomas in the same category as farmers. they were people who had some land but they were basically broadcasters and they were there for-weeks. -- for weekends. >> the caller refer to a man shed -- -- mansion. >> that had a mortgage on it for a very long time. >> which one? >> the house at dapplebeer. >> it wasn't a very big one but it did get paid off. >> why was it so important to your father? >> i have no idea. he just loved farming. this was his number one farming. -- hobby. >> what was the significant of this area where he buys the farm? >> duchess farm is just gorgeous. a little bit of historical footnote. 1934 is the only election where -- 1944 is the only election in

history where both candidates come from the same county. >> john, you are on the air. john in eugene -- >> hello? >> we're listening, john, go ahead. >> hello. thanks. this is a great series, c-span. i've really ben enjoying it. quick comment and then question. professor smith, i always enjoy hearing you. i learn a lot. i must correct you on one thing. over here we pronounce it oregon not ore-gone. second question. could you comment on the republican race for in 1944? was there a race in the campaign itself particularly from the republican side? thank you. >> well, there was a race in 1944 which is interesting because frankly, i don't think

-- i'm not sure governor dewey thought the nomination was necessarily worth all that much. certainly he wanted a second shot at the presidency. general macarthur's admirers an we have reason to believe that he would like to have been nominated. flirted with it for a while. but he went john bricker who we already mentioned to sort of run. it was in some ways a half hearted contest. governor dewey did not announce his candidacy, i think until the last minute. it was a quasi draft and it's an unusual year because it's wartime. and the great issue -- anyone who won the republican nomination would have a challenge. it's not just because you're running toward this formidable

wartime commander in the middle of the war but you don't know when the war was going to end. and the dewey appeal was that if america was at piece in 1945, it was believed that he would have a much stronger electoral taste than if the country would be at war. >> good evening. thank you very having me. i want to comment richard norton smith for preserving the history which is so important to america. they both do a great job. and in regards to mr. dewey, his passion with music from michigan, richard dreyfuss says in mr. holland's opus. music is not about notes on a page, it's about having fun and passion. that's what dewey had a lot of passion which is missing today. today it's texting. nobody communicates and i think we're losing.

we're losing that. and what mr. norton's doing god bless him. you know, i work with governor rockefeller and i met him being in politics and part of that and also the history of the roosevelt hotel is important. i was fortunate enough to work with phil and tony who did the bully french connection, and we shot a scene from the 7-ups in that hotel. and i was in that hotel, you felt a part of history. and the waldorf astoria had a train that teddy roosevelt would have come in because he was in a wheelchair, they didn't want to photograph him. so you're all doing a great job. and god bless dewey for what he did because those are the times when people were close. it was an intimate looking situation. today people are tweeting and it's very distant. and we in the baby boomer

generation, we have a sense of stories, great stories. the next generation, they don't even know -- they can't even converse with you sometimes. so again -- >> all right. we're going to leave it there. we're going off on another area. >> how important was music in your parent's household? >> well, dad came to new york to go to law school. my mother came to new york to study singing having won a contest in oklahoma where she came from. they met at the studio where they both studied. dad also supplemented whatever -- he didn't have any income, i guess. we supplemented by singing in synagogues and churches, etc. of course, my mother went on

stage singing. i would say it was very important then and it diminished for both of them. >> really? >> well, they -- they were great opera fans and they had the box at the metropolitan opera which i still have. and they enjoyed the opera very much. i don't think they went to the symphony very much in their later years. while it was extremely important of getting them together, i think it wasn't all consuming later on. >> were there big theater goers? >> fair. not terribly. >> thomas e. dewey is our contender. he ran in 1944 and 1948. he also ran in 1940. we want to show you the campaign announcement in 1939.

>> i think i'm confident and that of my associates in the republican party in the state of new york. i appreciate your support. i shall be glad to lead the fight. >> that was tommy dewey and his campaign announcement in 1939, goes on to run for governor again in 1942 and wins. why did he decide to run? >> one thing that should be mentioned about 1940, he made history in 1940. he had the first female campaign manager that year, a woman named ruth anna mccormick simms. her father was mark hannah, no mean political operative himself, but it was -- it's revealing -- you mentioned him singing in synagogues.

one of the things that he did when he was -- in his legal career particularly the racket days when he put out sort of a -- tough inside. -- help wanted side. 20% of the lawyers were applied at a time when the old law firms didn't necessarily hire jews. i mean, that's one revealing aspect. >> and let's take a little bit more about his record. he runs more with governor in 1942. what does he do if that position? >> oh, gosh. i would call governor dewey a liberal. -- thrifty liberal. he used to say that before there was government, there was mayhem. and government rose to meet man's needs. and in the modern industrial society that we live in, that means as much economic security as is consistent with individual freedom. so it was that constant balance.

in terms of the operation, he cleaned up the cobwebs in albany. albany had been run by one party for 20 years. there was waste and fraud and abuse. but in a more creative way, he cut taxes every year he was governor. >> an his record on civil rights? >> he was out in front. new york stated that because of governor dewey passed the first anti-discrimination legislation at the state level in america, it was to be in discrimination or for racial reasons in employment. >> los angeles is next. joe? >> i want to say that i really enjoy his books and how he speaks on tv. my question is about polling. i had heard during the 1948 election and i don't know if dewey was the first one to actually hire pollsters. but one of the reasons that the polls were wrong is that sample

with people on cars, that people had drivers licenses and that led to a wrong result about what the election was going to be. i just want to get more information about that. >> that's a fascinating question. one of tom dewey's best friends was george gallow. it was a personal friendship. but there's no doubt. dewey was fascinated by the science of polling and that's how he regarded it. the big problem in 1948, i think is that they stopped polling. they stopped, even the late polls which by the way, show. i mean if you look at the race they're anywhere from a 5.3 to in one case a 9.3. -- lead. that is substantial. it's not the kind of

overwhelming cut-dry that one would believe. but the demographic issue is legitimate. in 1936 the reason that the famous literary digest went out of business is it predicted landon would beat franklin roosevelt. it was a telephone poll. in america in 1936, the people who did not have telephones were likely to vote for f.d.r. >> david in sioux city, iowa. >> first time caller for me. so i'm a little bit nervous here. he knew everything about law. and the farm in new about agriculture. when the radical president -- -- when he ran for president -- you have all these other issues like helping the poor, that kind of thing. what were his strengths and what is his worry?

what was he lacking and needed a little bit of help? thank you. >> what were his vulnerabilities? >> oh, i think curiously the flip side of his traits there were a lot of republicans. who never forgave him for being a new yorker. there were a lot of conservative republicans who never forgave him for being a new yorker. i mean, new yorker's has been the city that people love to hate or at the very least like to misrepresent. >> hold on. would you father consider himself a new yorker? >> oh, he did, absolutely. >> he did? >> yeah. that was back in the days and i did get this from my parents. that so many of the people at the time in commerce and in other areas in new york were transplants from somewhere else as they both were. and they thought that that did not bar them from being real new yorkers. i think there was a cultural divide in some ways which is still with us in some senses. at 44, he had a difficult different situation.

the 8000-pound gorilla was to ensure of his health. -- the issue of fdr's health. we now know that f.d.r. was dying in the fall of 1944. but it was not something that you could possibly touch. and the other was the award with pearl harbor and there's speculation as to what if anything the president might have known? and i i think your dad would have some fairly good views on the subject. >> that's correct. well, there was -- not ironclad but presumptive proof that we have broken the japanese code before pearl harbor and did nothing about it. and that was once spread at the -- widespread at the time and

in fact, i think in the book roosevelt set the colonel up from washington to see him during the company. -- campaign. he said i just you're not going to mention this because there are police who use the same code which is and cost lives. he sucked it up and never did mention. >> but, it is a logical assumption that general marshall would not have acted on his own. >> that's my assumption. >> james, in los angeles? >> yeah, i'm a -- i was 20 in 1947 and a top secret technician in carswell what i'm commenting on is dewey was way ahead in the polls and he ran the dumbest campaign i've ever seen. he was -- he didn't attack truman and he ran as if he was already president.

truman was broke. he started a blockade. pearl harbor is being set up by roosevelt. then he just acted like he was going to win. he didn't attack. truman was broke. and he recognized israel and they gave him $100,000 for his -- $800,000 for his campaign. dewey should have been a shoe in but he had the worse company in the history of american presidents that he probably did good in new york. >> richard norton, thank you. >> i've thought that he was a better governor than a president. it would have been a better

president than he was as a candidate. >> why? >> it is universally recognized today with al smith. >> recognized as what? >> as one of the absolutely finest governors in a state who has had a history in gubernatorial leadership. one of the first people who invited up to albany was, a l smith who had a fallen out between f.d.r. and the two couldn't be more different and yet they just absolutely clicked. yet, the reporter said to al smith. he said there's only one thing wrong with that guy, he's a republican. they were great administrators who were what i call practical liberals operating within a balanced budget within the --

taxpayerrn for the and a productive private company. and what does that do for the republican at the time? >> well, it made new york one of the most watched in the country. they gave us al smith. they gave us the new deal. the man who had appointed him the gang buster somewhat relatively earlier. herbert lehman was very disturbed and popular governor distinguished -- distinguished and popular governor who because huge favorite to win another term. it's a tribute to the campaign, the excitement that dewey created that he won by 1%. four years later, there was no doubt that you know due bi- would -- that dewey would win.

he's the first republican in 20 years. and he went on to build an organization some might call a machine. but it was an odd organization. it was a good government. machine. if you can imagine such a thing. >> john in -- >> go ahead. >> i'm not sure that i would -- organization, yes. machine, no because it didn't outlive him. didn'tre right, machine outlive him but machines can be personal rather than ideological or enduring for that matter. >> like the subject of your next book. [laughter] >> yes. he appreciates that plug. >> let's hear from john from crown point, indiana. >> yes, during the 1944 campaign, tom dewey delivered, i think one of his best speeches of his career in oklahoma city. he really took off the gloves and hit roosevelt.

now prior to that he delivered what i call 1948 type of speeches where he talked about home, mother and god and the american flag. but after that oklahoma city speech, i think that convinced most republicans they had a chance to beat him. i wonder if he had the effect it had on the republican party in 1944? >> thank you. >> that speech reverberated in ways that no one could imagine at the time. there had been -- remember the famous speech in d.c. that fdr delivered. someone said there was a contest between their dog and coat. he was running under this campaign. we go get into this. he brought everything together.

all of the allegations of new deal, incompetence, new deal. economic failure. on and on and on. >> this is in late september, about a month before the election 1944. i think a lot of republicans at that point were close to despair. they -- he gave the speech. the campaign was broke. dewey and his friends raised $27,000 in order to put together a national radio network. he delivered the speech. it was galvanizing. a pole of 40 newspaper correspondents, 23 of them had come out of roosevelt. he had the league change. but the irony is, he later decided and he said, the most important thing of this speech.

its impact down the road. if you want one reason why, he ran in 1948. he told a friend that was the worst speech i ever did. he was terribly uncomfortable. >> he didn't want to be the prosecutor. i mean, i think there was some element that he didn't want to be elected as, you know, as the honest cop. i mean, he wanted to be more than that. and it was something about that speech. and i it's hard to believe that your mother also thought that it was some how a departure in terms of dignity and the respect that you show the office, etc. did you sense that tension at all? >> first of all, i was not 12 yet. so i've heard no personal knowledge. but that would have been her view.

>> where did he come from? where did that view come from? motherink she and dad's disagreed on practically everything. but they both have the strong sense of what you have to be dignified. don't demean yourself dignifiedn whenever you were doing. they felt the need to not demean yourself by attacking the other guy. not necessarily smart in politics, but they were who they were. week,'s hear from tom to criticizing the new deal. >> the record of this administration is one, long chapter of failure. still, we agreed that it was a failure at home, but its foreign policies are very good.

when an administration that is so disjointed and not successful at home, could it be better abroad? flexner over. >> can an administration -- >> no. >> can administration like this be better abroad? >> no. >> these things, we pledge to you. an administration where you will not have to support freemen to do the job of one man. -- three men to do the job of one man. an administration that will give the people of the country their receipt for the taxes they are paying.

[applause] free from the influence of communist and corrupt big city machines. the single-minded purpose of jobs and opportunity for all. >> richard norton smith, how does he answer that? >> a question that he cannot answer at the beginning of the next term. he calls fdr a tired old man, as close as you could get to raising the health issue. but certainly, there is a sense of intellectual exhaustion after

12 years. do we represented youth, figure, it energy. the way that john kennedy symbolically represented more than the turning of the page from the oldest president to the youngest president. he had that same quality in 1924. having not gutted the social programs in new york, he made them work better than he may have cut taxes at the same time. >> who was his vice presidential pick? >> from ohio, a fellow governor, john rector. he had bad luck with running mates. privately, he referred to him as that big, dumb swede.

>> no. >> what are the results of the 1944 election? >> he came closer than anybody else. of the four people ran against franklin roosevelt, he came by a considerable at about closer. he won 99 electoral votes. the shift of 300,000 votes in the right states would have actually given dewey a majority in the electoral college. it was the closest race since 1916. >> hi. i was wondering. you were talking about earl warren, i think i am right about this. he was the governor of california. if dewey had won california, which i think he maybe had lost

to truman by a few votes, would dewey had swung the election or would he have one? >> the answer is no. you are right, he came within 18,000 votes. it was close in california. california was much smaller in 1948 than it is today. an alternate theory can be argued that the man who thought he was going to be governor dewey's running mate, a republican leader in the house from indiana who served in that role until 1964, charlie hallock was a representative of the farm belt. it can be theorized that if there had been somebody on the ticket who was a sensitive as hallock was to the unhappiness of the farmers that perhaps some things might have been done differently. who knows?

>> let's go back to the 1944 campaign. he loses. he makes a concession speech. >> it is clear that mr. roosevelt has been reelected for a fourth term. every good a american will wholeheartedly accept the will of the people. i extend it to president roosevelt my hearty congratulations and my earnest hope that his next term will be speedy victory in the war, the establishment of lasting peace, and the restoration of tranquillity among our people. i am confident that all americans will join me in a devout hope that in the difficult years ahead, divine providence will guide and protect the president of the united states.

>> when does he make this speech? >> he made it the day after. there was some grumbling up in hyde park that he had not gotten the concession on election night. he says to an aide, fdr had worked himself up into a lather over your dad. i think it was personal in this case. anyway, the last word on election night before fdr goes to bed was, i still think he is an old son of a bitch. did your dad talk about roosevelt? >> no. >> ever? >> no. >> that is fascinating. >> just another example of turning a page. he is not tomorrow to talk concerned. >> it is not that it was a

painful chapter that he did not want to revisit, it is just -- >> if there was pain, we did not see it. >> or talk about it? >> you cannot talk about it unless you saw it. you are back to his mother and his wife. >> can i ask you one quick -- i was told by somebody who was at the law firm. it's almost too cruel to be true. one year he went to the christmas party -- one year for some reason -- the band played "hail to the chief." the story is he turned it around and did not go back to another firm christmas party. is that possible? >> it sounds out of character and impossible. >> what does it sound out of character?

>> had the band -- remember this was his law firm. had the band done that, i think he would have gone on, he would not have walked out. you forgot earlier his major walkout in the 1956 convention after dirksen had dismissed him. he was introduced to give a speech. he got up and walk all the way down the aisle and out of the auditorium. gone. take that. >> i think he had been waiting for years to take that walk.

>> he did say that. >> it must have been very gratifying. >> he is referring to the law firm that his father was partner of after his political career was over. he was a partner in a law firm here in new york. what about the role in that? >> the law was something he wanted to do. politics was a detour. i think the idea of really creating or recreating a firm -- i guess he did not found it. he remade it. >> it was an old firm which he joined and became dewey- valentine. they had about 90 lawyers when he joined in 1955. he attracted many of the big companies in the united states, foreign governments. when he died prematurely in 1971, it had 300 lawyers.

>> let's get to a phone call. >> mr. smith, talking to hank who is the biographer, he has said that charlie was under the belief in feet through support behind mr. dewey, he would be the running mate in 1948. when that did not happen, it may be the only regret he had politically was with dewey -- >> you are breaking up a little bit. i think we lost paul. do you want to take that? >> i heard the same story. there is no doubt that he thought he was double crossed. people hear what they want to

hear. there is no doubt that hallock thought going into that convention that he had an understanding with the dewey forces that he would be on the ticket. >> hi. the disney character dewey was named after thomas e. dewey. how did he feel about that? >> i did not hear that. i apologize i did not hear the question. let's move on to cheryl in bakersfield, california. >> i have been calling the series. the one thing that comes to my mind is, what was his relationship with the tammany hall people in the new york city during that time?

my mother comes from brooklyn. my father was a californian. it is amazing they always split their votes in the 1950's and 1960's when i was growing up. my father changed to republican when he ran in 1948. thank you. >> you might say tammany hall was the making of tom dewey in some way. he had it drummed into his head that tammany hall was the epitome of political and civic evil. he would spend a significant part of his public career demonstrating the truth of that. >> hello. my name is adam and i am a college student. i actually read part of the book that mr. norton wrote about dewey.

i was just wondering -- what did dewey think about his chances of going into the 1948 campaign about winning the race? i know that dewey was supposed to win that race. maybe mr. smith can talk about what were his prospects about winning the 1948 campaign against roosevelt. >> now the 1948 campaign against truman -- i think the 1944 campaign i am not sure he ever really expected to win. i think he expected to win four years later. again, as we talked a little bit earlier, he was not a complacent figure sitting unquestionably on his lead that you might think from some of the textbook accounts. he was very confident of the fact that public opinion was a dynamic thing. he sensed slippage in the last few days of the campaign. i think he felt he was almost

trapped. he had a strategy that brought him this far. there was no reason to believe it would not carry him across the finish line first. >> as thomas e. dewey, jr., told us tonight, his father turned the page and moved on. he goes on to still play a role in party politics. what is it? what is the influence? >> imagine being an elder statesmen at 46. that is something. he remains governor of new york for another six years. he wanted to retire. he wanted to get on that business of creating a great law firm. but the great work came along and the party had no one else. he was nominated, he ran again. he was reelected. he was very glad to leave four years later. in between, you have an extraordinary show of political strength. i don't think anybody would have predicted where he and his

organization -- his national organization at really puts dwight eisenhower over the top, write a platform to the liking of the moderates in the republican party. he brings richard nixon on to the national scene at the age of 39. i would have thought your dad saw some of his younger self in young richard nixon. they had some temperamental similarities. >> they did. i think it is easy to say that geography had a lot to do with it, just as it did with earl warren in 1948. it is also important that you mollify the taft wing of the party.

while they are not selecting somebody from the taft wing, nixon was seen as the closest possible guy. i was there when my dad said, there is your vice-president, to eisenhower. >> where were you? >> i was at the convention. i was opening doors and carrying the notes as a college sophomore should do. i know that is what happened. i don't know if it was a temperamental likeness or if it was getting the taft wing on board. geographical balance was a big thing like -- it was a big thing back then. >> what your dad used to say, at the end of his life he said, everything came to rule for me.

he always like to surround himself of people who he said careers were ahead of them. the fact that nixon was 39 years old was a way of not only mollifying the taft wing of the party but projecting into the future. >> he was successful at keeping the taft wing at bay? >> yes. senator taft unfortunately died in the very early part of the eisenhower administration. it was very touching to see him go to the hospital. he slips into visit taft. it must've been a surreal final meeting in the hospital. i would have loved to be a fly on the wall. >> do you know anything about that meeting? >> no.

>> let's hear from bob next. >> good evening. what did governor dewey think of governor rockefeller as the inheritor of the east republicanism? >> i will defer it to tom who was there. >> you go first. >> there is some debate on that in the book i am working on. i have not quite made up my mind. tom dewey was much more of a fiscal conservative than nelson rockefeller was. there was a meeting toward the end of his life. they are at a party. dewey says, you know, i like you. i am not sure i can afford you. dewey's approach to government was much more fiscally orthodox. he hated debt. nelson was less restrictive in that regard.

>> that is a very nice way of saying that. as far as the nixon vs. rockefeller, they did not attend the convention because the rockefellers going way back had been -- his largest campaign contributors, they worked hard for him. they were good friends. my take from that was he thought the party should be nominating richard nixon in 1968. he was not going to get involved. >> it has also been suggested that, quite frankly, his law firm -- he had reasons not to alienate nelson rockefeller. >> i don't know if it had anything to do with the law firm. they were never the rockefellers' law firm. i don't think there were economic reasons. i think by that time, he felt

uncomfortable with the amount of money that nelson rockefeller had been sent. >> let's hear from debbie. she had been waiting. >> i have a very interesting subject to talk about. sarah palin and todd palin and i have been conversing on sessions on the internet facebook. since the occupy wall street has started -- [unintelligible] >> debbie can you relate this to our topic tonight? what is your topic about tom dewey? >> my question is why haven't democrats put somebody else in office and sent barack obama back to africa? >> all right. let's go to pennsylvania.

>> in 1944, i am a world war ii veteran. i still have a good brain. but i still remember things. i feel like 1944 -- it was roosevelt's time. i think dewey was a very smart person. they just wanted to keep him in office because they were at a board. i think if they were not in war, dewey would have won hands down. >> that is exactly as i said earlier. that was the conundrum. you could not know. it is interesting that that comment all these years later

reflects what dewey believed. the strategy was that in a peacetime environment, as grateful as people were to fdr, they would have been willing to turn a page and embark on a different kind of domestic policy. >> let's go to bill. >> good evening. i am residing in virginia now. as a youngster about 13 or 14 years old, i grew up about 3 miles from governor dewey's farm. i had an occasion on more than one time to caddy for the governor at quaker hill golf course. on one particular time, i remember after the afternoon was getting late and his golf partners -- lowell thomas, judge murphy from new york city, edward r. murrow -- they wanted to continue playing at the park. they asked me to caddy. it was getting late in the day.

i said that i am about 8 miles away. i need a ride when we are through. one gentleman spoke up and said, don't worry, i will take you. when they finished, that man got in his car left and i was stranded there. governor dewey saw to it that i had a ride back to the village. i would never forget that. i was very grateful for him. >> that was bill in new york. mike, staten island, new york. >> had mr. dewey won the 1944 election, what would be his policy as far as ending the war? >> 1944, did he say? ok. >> i think it is a fair question.

if you look at the calendar and you see where the armies were in january of 1945, i think at that point announcing defeat was only a question of time. how dewey might have conducted diplomacy differently if it had been him meeting churchill and stalin -- >> what about the atomic bomb? do you think dewey would have done that? >> it is hard for me to believe that any president after we had spent $2 billion to do this think -- knowing that if he did not use the bomb and if the war was prolonged -- quite frankly it might be subject to impeachment. what was the point of -- i think in the retrospective

argument over troop and whether it was moral to use the bomb, it is hard to believe any american president not taking advantage of the opportunity to end the war that the bomb represented. i cannot imagine tom dewey would have -- >> on your earlier comment. dad was bitterly critical for years after about giving away all of those people in eastern european countries into the slavery of the soviet communism. he was consistent on that subject. >> i would love -- i would give anything to see your dad sitting across the table from joseph stalin. somebody who had prosecuted gangsters all of his life. couples try to get a more phone calls and hear as we wrap up tonight's "the contenders."

>> thank you very much for this wonderful program, part of a wonderful series. historically toward the end we did get back to the question of foreign affairs. my question has to deal with professor smith's reference to his role of an adviser in for policy at what the relation between the two was and what that had to do with dulles becoming the secretary of state in the cabinet. >> i think you are absolutely right. they all fit together. the relationship was a uniquely close one. intellectually substantive. at one point, your dad appointed him to the united states senate seat which he was unable to hold onto in the election. there is no doubt that john foster dulles became dwight

eisenhower's secretary of state as an outgrowth of the long record of association of creative foreign-policy position he had had with tom dewey. >> he was one -- maybe the most senior of dad's group of advisers that went to washington. he mentioned tom stephens, there were quite a number of them. >> one of governor dewey's great innovations was the new york state freeway. it probably did more for new york city's economic development than everything since. the man who built the freeway was burt ptolemy. he went on to build the interstate highway system under dwight eisenhower. >> i want to throw out a couple of names as we finish here. >> one of the many of surprising aspects of a surprising life. in 1964, dewey was at the white

house. lbj wanted to get him to chair a national crime commission. in any event, he backed off of that. he pointed out to lbj, if you look at the schedule of your convention in atlantic city? he was meeting with marvin watson who was the president's top aide. anyway, there was a day set aside as a tribute to kennedy. it was up front. dewey pointed out that if this happens, jackie will be there, teddy, and the entire family. there will be an emotional -- before you know it, bobby kennedy will be your running mate. the president on the phone and called watson and said it moved kennedy from day one to day four. hubert humphrey became the running mate instead.

he was in his debt until the day he died. >> they were social friends. >> they were social friends. >> they spent parts of winter together. i even went to the races with them. >> we are all out of time and gentlemen. i want to thank the both of you for being our guests and talking to our viewers. talking about thomas e. dewey. our contender in our 14th week of the series. i want to thank all of you for calling in. a big thanks to everybody. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

♪ >> you will receive the answer in due course. do not worry. >> i will not give you an answer until hell freezes over. >> a former governor of illinois, running twice as the democratic nominee for president, losing. at least even some -- adlai stevenson, this week on "the contenders and." for a preview, go to a special website for the series. c-span.org/thecontendoers.

>> spend this weekend in knoxville, tenn., with booktv and american history tv. on c-span 2, university of tennessee's body farm. export acres of decomposing remains. also, a look at the author of "routes," and his life in -- roots," in his life in knoxville. on c-span 3, a visit to the sequoyah museum. and guilt -- indian silversmith successfully created a system of writing for the cherokee language. also, the oak ridge national

laboratory on their part in the development of the atomic bomb. and historian bruce wheeler, on its history. what, throughout the weekend, on booktv and american history tv. on thursday, hillary clinton cautioned congress about cutting spending in afghanistan and pakistan. she told the house foreign affairs committee that stability is critical to national security. she also discuss the president's decision to withdraw from iraq and u.s. relations with india and cuba. this is two hours and 15 minutes.

>> after recognizing myself and the ranking member for seven minutes for opening statements, i will recognize the members of the southeast asian subcommittee for three minutes of their statements. we will then welcome home the secretary of state with a belated birthday and we will summarize for a prepared statement before we move to the question and answer with members. without objection, the witness is prepared statement will be made a part of the record.

members have five days to submit questions for the breaker -- for the record. madam secretary, welcome to our committee. we are pleased to have you here to assess policy and progress in afghanistan and pakistan. there was a fundamental connection between our war effort in afghanistan and extremists safe havens in pakistan, defined by the president as disrupting, dismantling, and defeating al qaeda and its extremist allies. the president noted that it is the afghans that must secure

their country. it will ultimately take time to defeat al qaeda. that they remain a ruthless enemy bent on attacking our country. make no mistake, we will remain relentless in disrupting and dismantling that terrorist organization. drawn to the rather curious state of 2012, december, madame secretary, where are we in achieving strategic objectives as outlined by the president. the u.s. is negotiating with the network, but then also attempting to destroy the upcoming network. -- hakani network.

turnover to the afghan national security forces remains a significant challenge in some key areas. in the counter narcotics front side of the link between insecurity and opium cultivation. leading us to the broader question, what are the priorities for granting national priority interest in afghanistan and pakistan? what are we bringing to bear in the long-term aspect with afghanistan?

after the status of forces agreement with iraq, the previous administration extensively engage with the congress in a bipartisan manner. we were disappointed that a similar level of outreach and transparency on this critical issue. i am looking to secure information on what was negotiated. what are the primary components of this negotiation? can we maintain the toll of this brawl? or can we have a modest, counter-terrorism presence? how will it address political weakness in the system. what reforms are we requesting to fix these flaws?

the government in afghanistan with the push to become a reliable partner over the long term. too much blood and treasure has been invested in afghanistan for us to walk away. suffering from a cascading series of crises, there was the bitter raymond davis affair. davis was correctly released to u.s. custody. the ultimate disgrace was discovering osama bin laden in sight of pakistan. now, we see the brazen attacks of the islamabad process against

u.s. targets in afghanistan. we cannot sustain a partnership with them if their policies are hostile to u.s. interests and lives. funded through state department accounts, the pakistan security must work with us to cooperate more fully regarding our goals for stabilizing afghanistan. can this relationship the salvage them off and the strategic relationship be brought into better -- candice strategic relationship be brought into better reliance?

madam secretary, we look to you to help to qualify for us these strategic choices that are faced in this profoundly challenging time in the future of peace and stability in south asia. we are especially interested in hearing about your trip to the region. we look forward to working with you to advance to our national security interests in this region. >> thank you very much, madame chair. before i start by opening statement, i would like to let the committee know that a former colleague, howard wolfe, passed away on tuesday. he served seven terms in congress. most of his time he chaired the subcommittee of this committee. people will remember his

dedication to africa. he retired from congress in 1992. in the great lakes region, he was a president obama special adviser for that region as well. we lost a man who made a difference in policy, but a friend with a profound mind and an engaging and charming wit. thank you, madam chairman. thank you also for calling this important hearing on the administration's strategy in afghanistan and pakistan. i would like to commend secretary clinton for her leap -- leadership in libya.

you were able to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe of unmentionable -- unimaginable proportions and oust one of the world's most brutal dictators. you have just returned and this is a particularly good time to explore what remains one of the most complex foreign policy challenges of our time. i was encouraged by the president's commitment to our workers in afghanistan. as i have communicated to you in recent months, i am deeply concerned about our rapidly deteriorating relationship with islamabad. soon after the bin laden raid,

reports indicated that pakistani intelligence tipped off militants operating ied factories on pakistani soil. the network believed to be responsible for the bomb that wounded 77 american soldiers and the september 13 attack against the embassy, considered to be a credible arm of the isi. threatening pakistan and u.s. coalition forces. "the united states was doing practically nothing for

pakistan, close " except in the form of military aid. concerns were voiced that the commitment to the military was perhaps the worst kind of decision we could have made. "a terrible decision that we seem hopelessly involved in. " i support the administration's decision to place distance until pakistan shows real progress in combating terrorist groups. insuring that it is meeting its intended purpose. at the same time, it would be a mistake to slash economic assistance to pakistan. these are the critical building blocks of a peaceful and

prosperous pakistan and, ultimately, a stable afghanistan and south asia. we must continue to find ways to partner with the people of pakistan, who have become a casualty of misguided policy pursued by the pakistani military and civilian leaders who are unwilling to leave. -- lead. never-ending financial crises, political turmoil, and rising extremism. the united states cannot solve all of the many problems. but, we can make a difference. the recently completed renovation funded by the united states means that 1 million more pakistan these will have steps taken to strengthen the private sector. we should create an american pakistan enterprise fund, which will not cost the taxpayers a single dime. i know you have expressed support for this concept, madame

secretary. it is critical that the assistance that we provide be sustainable and transparent. and this is true not just in pakistan, but to all of our international programs. i say that america cannot afford a course of isolation and retreat. but rather than making indiscriminate cuts, we need to make more efficient, more effective, better serving some of our national interests. let me touch briefly on reconciliation in afghanistan. i support the decision to withdraw all combat troops by 2012. strategic partnership declarations, which i look forward to hearing more about, will serve as an important symbol to the government and

people of afghanistan. it is critical to the people of afghanistan. while i appreciate cementing that relationship, i continue to hasn't -- to have reservations within the network. i am concerned that allowing them to resume leadership positions in the government would threaten the gains that we have made. even if they were sincere in their desire to reconcile, which i am suspect of. i think that we have a very different definition of stability. ultimately, we will not be successful in afghanistan.

madam secretary, how will we ever succeed in afghanistan, as long as pakistan provides sanctuary for insurgents? once again, i look forward to your testimony. in closing, i have to say that because a bill of mine is in the transportation infrastructure aviation subcommittee today, there may be times when i have to leave. certainly, i will come back to hear your testimony as well. >> thank you for your statement. the chair of the subcommittee on the middle east and south asia is recognized for three minutes. >> thank you. although it is not the expressed topic of our hearing, i would like to say something about iraq. i am concerned about the

president's announcement of a complete withdrawal by the end of the year. campaign promises at the expense of national security interests are best neglect and at worst downright irresponsible. it seems clear to me and many analysts that the army is not yet willing to face the nefarious and neighbor to the east. current policy appears to focus on normalizing the relationship with iraq, but the situation there is not normal. i feel that our objective is no longer to see that the situation is stable, but more to meet a political timeline. the deputy national security adviser did not make it so. to bar away " from you, madame secretary, when you were serving

in the other body, it required a willing suspension of disbelief fit to accept the withdrawing of our forces from iraq at a time when agents sought to harm every turn, the allies in the strategic interests. i understand that iraq is a sovereign country, but i believe that there is much more that this administration could have done to secure a more realistic presence beyond the end of the year. accordingly, i would like to echo senator lieberman and his recent call to reopen negotiations with the iraqis. it would be a failure of colossal proportions to withdraw before iraq is ready to stand and its own. this offers a disturbing insights into the administration's definition of condition-based withdrawal, the policy in afghanistan. when recently asked if not leaving a residual force in iraq and pagers hard-fought gains, he

responded "i think they should have raised those issues with president bush, when he agreed to the agreement to withdraw troops." is this what we should expect of an obama administration in 2014 if conditions in afghanistan did not qualify for withdrawal? what contingency planning is the administration conducting? should we get to 2014 and discovered conditions in afghanistan having not progressed as quickly as we had hoped, as one reporter recently observed, it used to be the american withdrawal was conditioned on success. now it seems that withdrawal has become the definition of success. if that is the case, success in afghanistan is going to feel like a lot like failure. >> thank you.

we will now hear from our witness. we are honored to welcome hillary rodham clinton, serving as the 67th secretary of state for the united states. this is the latest chapter in her four decade career the public service. having served previously as the senator from new york, as well as an attorney and law professor. madam secretary, your full statement will be made a part of the record. if you will be so kind as to summarize your wit -- your written remarks, we hope to get as many members as possible. madam secretary, welcome back. the floor is yours. >> thank you very much, madame chairwoman. to the members of the committee, i appreciate this opportunity again to appear before you.

i want to start by recognizing the concerns that many of you have about afghanistan and pakistan policy. you and the american people are right to ask questions. i think it is also important, as the chairwoman of looted to in her opening statement, to recognize the significant results that our policy has already produced. osama bin laden and many of his top lieutenants are dead. the threat remains real and urgent. but senior leadership has been devastated. its ability to conduct operations have been diminished. many of our successes would not have been possible without our presence in afghanistan and close cooperation with pakistan. we face a difficult fight, but

coalition forces have reversed the action in many key areas. while the country still faces enormous challenges, from poverty and corruption, our development efforts have bolster the economy and improved lives. you know the statistics. 10 years ago there were 1 million students in afghan schools, all of them boys. now 7 million, nearly 40% of them girls. afghans are better positioned to chart their own future. i offer these brief examples as a reminder, as the president said, we are meeting our commitment and making progress. we cannot let up. we should build on our momentum, but undercut progress. i will be the first to admit that working with afghan and pakistan the partners is not always easy. these relationships are of

immense in america's national security interests. walking away from them would undermine those interests. with it that context, let me report that i have just completed a productive visit to both countries. i emphasize that our three track strategy of fight, talk, and build. pursuing all three tracks at once, as they are mutually reinforcing. the chance of success for all 3 is greatly increased by the strong cooperation from the afghan and pakistani governments. first, the fight. the coalition and afghan forces have increased pressure on the taliban networks and other insurgents, including with a new operation in eastern and afghanistan. our commanders on the ground are increasingly concerned, as they have been for some time, that we have to go after safe havens

across the border in pakistan pakistan is have to be concerned about a tax coming across the border towards them in afghanistan. general dempsey, director petraeus, and i, the liver of a stable message. pakistan's civilian and military leadership must join us in sweeping the network on both sides of the border and closing those safe havens. we underscored the urgency of the task at hand. we had details and frank conversations about tucker steps that both countries needed to take. i explained tried to distinguish between so-called good and bad terrorist is self-defeating and dangerous. and no one to target civilians of any nationality should be tolerated or protected. we are not suggesting that

pakistan sacrifice its own security. the opposite. we respect the sacrifices they have already made. it is important for americans to be reminded that over the past decade, more than 5000 soldiers have been lost. 10,000 citizens have been killed or injured. that is why we are pursuing a vision of a shared security that benefits us all. the second track is talking. here, we are taking concrete steps with our partners. we have affirmed america's strong support for an inclusive, afghan-led peace process. we have been clear about the necessary outcomes of these negotiations. insurgents must renounce violence, abandon al qaeda, and a buy by laws and constitution of afghanistan, including the protection for women and minorities. insurgents cannot or will not meet those lines?

they will face an unrelenting assault. i want to stress, as i did in kabul, that the rights of women and civil servants cannot be will back. now, there is no doubt that the murder of the former president was a setback. the afghans strongly believe that reconciliation is still possible. we support that peace and stability in the region. pakistan has a critical will to play and a big stake in the outcome. we look to pakistan to encourage insurgents to participate in the peace process, in good faith. through unequivocal public statement and safe haven announcements. we are working with the government to help them secure from their neighbors after and sovereignty and territorial integrity and support. this will be a key focus next

week when i go to istanbul to meet with foreign ministers. the united states is working to conclude a new strategic partnership. in 2011, we had three washington-led round discussions. these discussions resulted in an agreement on institution- building, human rights, anti- corruption, and other important long-term reforms. we envision establishing and can stand-united states bilateral commission and associated implementation mechanisms to help our focus remain on what needs to be done during the transition. ambassador crocker and general working through

the negotiations. i want to assure the congress but although we do not expect this to take the form of a treaty or require advice and consent of the senate, we will consult with you on where we are in the process. and will ensure that anyone who wishes to have a full briefing will get one. we welcome your views. in response to the congressman's point, we anticipate having a transition that does have a security component from the united states and nato. those are commitments made at the lisbon summit. we look forward to consulting with you on that. the third track is building capacity and opportunity across the region. this is true to the lesson we've learned over and over again around the world. lasting stability and security

go hand-in-hand with greater economic opportunity. people need a realistic hope for a better life. it is critical to our broader efforts that's a million assistance continued in afghanistan and pakistan. i will also be very clear that we have had to move rapidly to strengthen oversight and improve effectiveness. i will be happy to answer questions about that. next week i will be sending you a comprehensive update on our civilian assistance detailing our plans to shift from a short- term stabilization to long-term development. as the transition proceeds and combat forces leave afghanistan, there need to be realistic hopes for development. we're working to achieve greater agricultural

productivity greater exploitation of natural resources in a way that helps the afghan people, strengthening the financial sector. i really want to underscore the point that congressman berman made. we want to move from a to trade. we cannot do that if we do not get legislation that will lower tariffs and the enterprise fund that will not require taxpayer dollars. this is what we did in central and eastern europe. he was a big help in convincing people the free market was the way to go. we are pursuing a broader long- term vision for regional economic integration that we called the news so growth -- new silk road. we want to get these countries

that have problems with each other to start cooperating. we're pleased with the progress in the and pakistan are making and the progress on the trade agreement between afghanistan and pakistan. we are on all of these tracks simultaneously. we believe it is the best place. can be moving forward. i look forward to answering your questions. thank you. i will yield myself time for questions. the iraqi government has failed to help it can presidents. with the final withdrawal from

iraq, we need to be confident our administration is engaged with the government of iraq and others to ensure the welfare of the camp residents and resolve their long term security goals. my question deals with my native homeland of kubla -- cuba. your administration has remained in opposition to many of the world tyrants to your credit. if the u.s. continues to engage the cuban regime. you said saleh should move of the way. he said that assad is not indispensable. in stark contrast, this administration continues to engage with the cuban regime and provide the castro brothers economic lifelines with

increased travel opportunities, supporting offshore drilling aspirations. two weeks ago, it was confirmed the department recently met with cuban regime officials to discuss the sad case of alan gross. state department officials were willing to offer concessions such as allowing convicted cuban spies to return or taking care of the state-sponsored terrorism list to obtain the release of mr. gross. the united states should not be the is heating with a state sponsor of terrorism. why is there a double standard with the castro regime? >> thank you for those questions. let me start on cuba. then i will go back to camp ashcroft and our concerns about it. our position has been the same for more than 50 years.

we think that fidel castro should go. that is the commitment we have put forth over many years. unfortunately, he does not seem to be going anywhere. we do worry about the activities of the cuban government. we have strongly supported the desire of the cuban people to freely determine their own future. it is our view that we should help those trying to work towards positive change. we do support a variety of activities on the island. we interact with a broad section of individuals and groups in cuban society. we provide humanitarian assistance including food, over- the-counter medicines, and more. we think that is a necessary double approach. we want democracy in cuba.

we are always supported democracy for cuba. we have tried to encourage changes and reform. time, we will continue working with individuals. u.s. officials regularly meet with their cuban counterparts, as i know you are aware. we have areas of mutual concern. we of drug-trafficking, immigration, all kinds of issues. our main objective for the last few years has been to insure unconditional release. we have not been willing to give unilateral concessions to the regime or ease sanctions as a means to secure his release. is a gross think it violation of his human rights and humanitarian abuse that he has not been returned to his

family. we would like to see that happen as soon as possible. with respect to canada ashcroft the decamp ashcroft -- with respect to camp ashcroft that we're concerned about, there is legitimate concern. we have elicited written assurances from the government of iraq that it will treat the residents humanely, not transfer residents to a country they had -- may have reason to fear. we're pushing hard to get that united nations commission on refugees to work with the refugees and the government to get them to a safe place. >> we appreciate that. thank you. the ranking member on african global health and human rights is recognized. >> let me commend you for the outstanding job your doing.

i know you touched down in five countries. that is amazing. your trip to libya or the united states has asked the europeans and nato to lead where we would about, i think that was a very successful strategy. i commend the administration for giving up to the agreement that president most -- bush made when he said our troops should be out of iraq by the end of the year. i congratulate our government for living up to that promise to americar troops back in by the holidays. i support what the administration has done in south sudan. i was at a celebration of the new country. i hope we will give them all the support they need and that we will continue to watch darfur

and continue to support the government in somalia. we need to make that work. we also need to urge the kenyans to eradicate terrorists coming into kenya the stabilizing the area. -- destabilizing the area. i also commend the president for the 100 troops that are going to the central africa republic and you gotta to train them in trying to eliminate joseph kohni. my colleagues have been passionate about the fact he needs to be eliminated, captured, or taken out. for 25 years, he has wreaked havoc on people.

iran the specs are unconscionable. he should be taken off the face of this earth. let me get to afghanistan and pakistan. the u.s. strategy in afghanistan has been based on the belief that developing economy and institutions will win over the populations to support the afghan government after international forces drawn down. some analysts are concerned the afghan economy may enter a state depression as international military involvement winds down. what steps has the u.s. taken to insure this depression does not happen? i know you mentioned the new soap wrote -- silk road.

will there be job training programs and community development to overtake the military action? >> thank you for highlighting the important issues and security concerns coming out of africa. i join with congressman berman in submitting the life of former congressman will be -- wolpey. you are right to raise the issues of sustainability. when the enormous amount of international money that has been used inside afghanistan begins to diminish, that raises questions about sustainability we are working to strengthen the

capacity of the afghan government itself at the national and local level. we think it is important to help them understand fundamentals like planning and budgeting. usaid is developing a set of measurements about sustainability and applying them to our programs. we are working on necessary reforms right now. the afghan power company has to learn how to effectively collect revenue, cover the costs of their operations. we're also working with the ministry of public works on the roads authority. the international community has built roads, but they have to learn how to maintain them. that means collecting tolls or tariffs. sure werking to make are coordinating with other donors.

there are many big donations that come for infrastructure and training. we will make sure we are all on the same page. >> the chairman of the subcommittee on europe and eurasia. >> let me start off by making a statement. there are a lot of congressmen and women concerned about unilateral actions taken by the administration in a military fashion. nobody mourns gaddafi leaving the scene. we believe congress should be involved in the decisionmaking process before we go to war. that was a long duration. it cost $3 billion of taxpayer money. i think the administration should be where there is a lot of concern that unilateral action is being taken without

consultation from congress. let me talk about a couple of things and then ask a question. in 1979, we supported the removal of the shah. the ayatollah came back and imposed sharia walt -- law. he lined people up against the wall and killed them. that is surely a long -- sharia law. the interim government has indicated they will have sharia law. if you are an enemy combatant and you are defeated, your wife can be raped and it is ok. i understand women are being raped right now by people who

won the war because the people who supported gaddafi thought that was proper punishment. sharia law is anathema to most americans. in egypt, the moslem brotherhood is taking on larger responsibility. some believe they will end up running the country. the entire northern area of africa may be under schirra lot -- sharia law as well as iran. we could be facing another iran and libya, tunisia, egypt, or syria. i would like to know what the administration plans to do to make sure we do not have a radical government taking over those places. i know you were in libya. i watched your remarks on television.

i understand the administration position. it worries me. we still get almost 1/3 of our energy from that part of the world. if we have radical islamic governments in the region, we could have the same kind of problem we have with iran. >> you have raised many different aspects of the question that is yet to be answered. what does democracy mean? what is the likely outcome of these changes could wreck we know from our long history beyond 1979 that revolutions are unpredictable. sometimes it works out well as it did for us. many times, it goes through a as it did foron

france. sometimes it ends up in a place that we do not think reflects democracy as we define it. the united states is deeply committed to working with the new leaders. many have never been involved in politics before. we want to make it clear there must be and renouncing -- a renouncing of violence if you want the part of the democratic government. there needs to be a respect for women's rights, human rights, fundamental freedoms of speech and religion. i think a lot of the leaders are saying the right things. some are saying things that do give pause to us. i assure you we will do all we can within our power to try to

influence outcomes. the historic wind sweeping the middle east and north africa was not our making. in many instances, it was not even predicted. they will have consequences for the people of those countries and the rest of the world. >> i want to welcome you and commend you for the outstanding leadership you have demonstrated as the chief negotiator in the world and for the services you have given to our country. i appreciate the opportunities i have had in dialoguing with you

about the issues important in our country. maybe i am being simplistic trying to understand the challenges with pakistan and afghanistan. there are 12 million past tense -- pashtuns and others. it seems there is no such thing as an afghan because there are so many different tribes that make up the country. on the border, there are 27 million pashtuns. we're going after 20,000 taliban to hopefully get them to straighten up their wages -- ways. we have 100,000 troops in afghanistan with the purpose of

going after the 27,000 taliban. it is costing us about $120 billion a year. are we still committed to 2014 for withdrawal from afghanistan? >> that is the commitment. it is a mutually agreed upon commitment with nato, the afghan government, and the united states. that is our commitment. we have begun to transition security responsibility to the afghan forces in a number of areas. more will be announced shortly by the afghan government. we have a plan the military leadership is implementing to continue to revise and support but to move away from ongoing

combat responsibilities. >> i am deeply concerned about the events that transpired in indonesia. the police have arrested hundreds of innocent civilians. among those arrested is a dear friend. this gentleman would not hurt a fly. he is a traditional leader. out of sheer frustration that 2.2 million people have been waiting on special autonomy status, the indonesian

government has not done anything to pursue or promote this. i suspect out of frustration, they want to declare independence. the indonesian government is not accusing him of treason this is an elderly traditional gentleman leader. he would not hurt a fly. i would really appreciate it if the administration would pursue this earnestly with the indonesian government. i understand this is considered to be an internal matter, but it does have serious international implications in terms of military forces and how the indonesian government is pursuing this. i wanted to ask for your assistance and if we can work together to make sure this traditional leader and others

are given due process. >> we will follow-up on that. we will consult with you about it. >> mr. turner is recognized for five minutes. >> i recently returned from afghanistan. i met with military and state people. there is a contrast between the optimism that the military expressed in achieving their goal in the next 30 months. and finally that is to force the face of operations. -- i think mentally that is to thwart -- i think minimal thly t

is to thwart operations. i would be interested to hear what you think of this, whether the cultural divide between what we expect from the afghanis and what is really practical can be closed in a reasonable amount of time. 30 months is going to be difficult. thank you. >> thank you for going on that trip. it is important to see these situations firsthand and meet and talk with people. we appreciate your trip. the civilian presence in afghanistan has tripled in the

last few years in response to what were cleared efficiencies of attention in the prior years. it has made a lot of progress. it is a complicated undertaking. i think they were being candid with you. it is quite challenging. we have made a lot of progress. we think that has made a difference. you have to remember afghans had a lot of experience fighting but not a lot of experience in putting together a modern government. they have very little experience in what we're hoping to see them move toward, a sustainable democratic government. the progress is challenging. it is continuing.

it is important to negotiate this strategic partnership document so that we have an ongoing relationship. there is a sensible way to compare any two nations. they are each unique. we do have some experience. after the fall of the soviet union, the people living in the totalitarian states have little or no experience -- had little or no experience in what a functioning democratic government looked quite, what a trade union looked right, what kinds of human rights should be respected. it is quite an accomplishment for those people to have made the progress they have made. we are starting on a different level in afghanistan. there is no real experience. they went from a monarchy that

was a loosely governing presence in much of the country to a section -- secession of invasion by the soviet union, a puppet regime, the rise of the taliban , people rising up against what was not in their interests. this country has been through so much. even though there are different groups, they do consider themselves afghans. they do not have any doubts about that. how they work out the moans of cooperation are still to be determined. we're entering this with the right dose of humility. in the beginning, maybe we did not know how difficult it would be to make that transition. we are making progress.

we will stay with it. on the civilian side, we will be with it after 2014. >> well-played. the junior man stuck around and got to ask the secretary questions. now, the old guy. [laughter] >> young at heart. madam secretary, the administration has made it clear the war in afghanistan can only end through a political settlement. you have said you will not support any agreement that gives up the rights of the afghan people. given the brutal history of the taliban and that the movement is so and ideologically driven, what makes you think they will

agree to change course on audiology? how do we get them to change the way they see the world? -- do you think they will agree to change course on ideologies? how do we get them to change the way they see the world. >> we have had people reintegrate. we have registration of them. there seems to be a wariness -- weariness of fighting and the recognition that the taliban were not on the right path. this is part of the testing process we have to be engaged in. the hard reality is that until we put it to them, nobody will

be able to gauge that. we have followed some intelligence threads that suggest there is a debate going on about letting girls go to school. that would seem to absolutely be a condition. i think you are asking the right question. i am not at the stage where this is unfolding to be able to tell you exactly what our chances are. >> i will understand. a want to get into a sensitive issue that concerns me. i missed your testimony because of local politics within the

subcommittee on transportation and infrastructure. use certified pakistan was continuing to cooperate with the united states to dismantle networks, that it has demonstrated commitment and making efforts toward combating terrorist groups. ullen's recentmolle statements, recent reports in the indian press that they remain a key player despite being in custody for over to the years, do you have any regrets about making the certification? is there anything that makes you feel optimistic that the

purposes we were trying to achieve to something we can move forward on? >> the certification eyesight -- i signed it was mandated by a legislation from the preceding fiscal year. at the time i made the certification, a closely considered the requirements of the statute. i determined that on balance, they met the legal threshold. one challenge is that there are a number of factors. there was no doubt that pakistan had entered the fight against terrorists and have made sacrifices for the fight. there was a continuing intelligence cooperation focused on the al qaeda operatives that

was proving to be helpful. >> navy secretary have an additional answer to finish this? -- made the secretary have an additional answer -- could the secretary have an additional minute to answer the question? >> no. >> i would point out in the last six months, we have had great success in taking out al qaeda leadership. >> mr. smith is recognized. >> 10 years after the taliban, not a single public christian church remains in afghanistan they would have lost their lives if there had not been a big

intervention. what are we doing to ensure that christians and other minority religions are not subjected to increased repression? it has been said the situation has gotten worse for christians in the last year. we're seeing the same thing in pakistan. we know the minister of minority affairs was assassinated. it was a terrible loss. he was opposing the blasphemy laws in pakistan. it has been reported by the human rights commission of pakistan that hindu girls are conducted in converted to islam every month. i just heard a report about coptic christian girls in a

hearing. it was riveting. in egypt, young teenage girls were coptic christians are conducted -- abducted as teenagers, forced into is long, and then given in marriage at the age of 18 to an islamic mail. they say they are islamisizing the womb. it is all by coercion and kidnapping. i have not heard anything from the administration on that. that is egypt. the security situation on religious freedom is getting worse. i want to associate my remarks about the double standard with regard to cuba. fidel castro is given a large

pass for his human rights abuses in a way that is similar to what happens to hu jin tao. no one has repressed human rights more than china. yet he was treated with great honors where he should have been held to account for the egregious violations. please pick up the phone and call the foreign minister of china and asked where this man is. there have been rumors and reports that he may have been beaten to death. he is the blind activist lawyer who has stood up for women who have been coerced into forced abortions and forced sterilizations. he took on their case. the iron fist of the chinese dictatorship has caused him to

spend years in prison. now we hear he may have been beaten to death. please call the foreign minister on that. >> i share your concerns and outrage over what we're seeing happening. we will follow up on your request. on persecution, " we're seeing is deeply distressing it is not just against christians and hindus. it is also against different sects of islam. they are persecuted. this is one of our biggest problems in the world right now. there needs to be a greater acceptance of religious tolerance.

in many places, there is no history of religious tolerance. i am searching for ways to be effective. one thing we have tried hard to do is to work with a number of countries including moslem- majority countries to begin to change the dialogue from what they wanted to call with this defamation, a legal rationale. personate -- for persecuting people who spoke out, to a broad acceptance that there needs to be an equation between freedom of speech and religion. we're trying many different approaches. >> mr. sherman is recognized. >> thank you for coming before us. i hear that you have a busy schedule. i missed your opening statement

for the same reason as the ranking member. all politics are local. our districts are co-located. you may want to respond for the record. this is not one of the hot issues. one group has been influenced by another group of islam. they have ideas that are harmonious with american ideals. i hope we would do all we could for them. there suffering from this year's floods on top of last year's floods. i hope you will speak to the pakistani. you have many issues to cover with them.

of is the disappearances' the sindi activists in southern pakistan. in this committee room, we dealt with the authorization bill. it may never become law. it does reflect whatever wisdom there is on the side of the room. we took a look at the voice of america that has a budget of $750 million. i believe it was unanimous to direct the voice of america to spend at least $1.50 million on that broadcasting in the sindi language. the best way to reach them would be on broadcast originating from the uae. we already broadcast into pakistan in urdu.

sindi is spoken by more people than the urdu language. that is the language spoken in most homes. do you have a comment on that or want to take it under advisement? >> that is a very useful suggestion. i will get back to you for the record. >> i appreciate that. many of us saw the ad about the 14-year-old girl who fears extermination. we face a tough circumstance. we are withdrawing from iraq. in the past, there have been

massacres or terrible where people have been killed. there are press reports that iraqi officials say not to worry about it because there on the u.s. terrorist list. what are we doing to assure that when we leave iraq we will not see the massacre of 3400 people at the camp? how is it going on the review of whether they should be on the terrorist list. >> on those points, in accordance with the 2010 ruling, the state department is ruling the designation. there will be a decision. it has to be done expeditiously

but thoroughly. we hope to have a decision in the future. the current designation is not related to the situation. it is important to recognize that we need to do as much as we can to move as many people out of the camps before the end of the year. we are trying to do that. we're working primarily through the united nations. we're working with the residents and the government of iraq to put in place a rapid assessment of individuals. we have urged the e.u. and other

countries to favorably consider the resettling of any residents granted refugee status because we want to shrink the numbers as fast as we can. >> welcome, madam secretary. let me note for the record that the chairwoman is not the only person who is deeply concerned about the castro regime and the horrible repercussions we have suffered because we have allowed this gangster to ally himself with hostile elements in the world. we should not take that lightly. you stated that we will do as much as we can in terms of the

camp. you are not doing as much as you can. it has been 500 days since the court was ordered to reconsider the terrorist designation. that should be plenty of time to understand what the issues are. other people around the world have determined that they will not put them on the terrorist list. we're not doing as much as we can i hope that you will pick that up and do as much as you can to ensure there is not another massacre of people that we could have prevented. we have officially requested from the state department information about the camp ashraf massacre. do you intend to comply with that request as we have been told the state department will? are you back cracking -- backtracking on that commitment? >> we will provide what

information we can. >> "we can" sounds like the operative words of how to get out of answering a question. you have the records of your own department. are you going to provide it? you have a request from congress. you have agreed to do it. will you comply with the request? >> we certainly will. i cannot tell you what will be in the reply. that is the qualification of my answer. >> there are libyan funds frozen in the united states and. how much do we spend to help the libyans to feed their tyrant? i do not think it would be inappropriate for us in the economic crisis to put a request in to be repaid for what we did to help the libyans win their

freedom. are we planning anything on that? >> the latest figures i have is that about $1 billion was spent. that is really the defense department money. i will wait to see what their final figures are. we are in discussions with the libyans about a number of issues where they have requested help from us. it is a little challenging until they get a government. . we're going to look to see how we can coordinate and organize any kind of reimbursement for certain functions we have performed. there have been no decisions because there is no government yet to negotiate with.

>> i think it would be an admirable policy for us to ask for compensation. we are borrowing $1.5 trillion a year. it is not right for us to borrow money from somebody else to help another group of people free themselves and put our people in debt for that. the libyans have enormous assets. we should require people like this to repay us if we expect the american people to continue to support the cause of freedom. i know there has been a lot of talk about this lately. i do not blame the president. i am not here to talk about the job you are doing in terms of pulling back from the missions in iraq and afghanistan. the call for extending our deployment in a rock, i do not

believe it reflects the desires of the american people who are war-weary. we cannot keep spending resources we do not have. we cannot keep sending troops to do the fighting for someone else. it is up to them a certain point to defend themselves. >> thank you, madame secretary. it is a great pleasure to have you before our committee. thank you for the fantastic work you are doing for our country. we are concerned about the capability and capacity and corruption. those of been cited as major obstacles to improving the rule of law and afghanistan. how do we ensure the billions of dollars of taxpayer funds being spent are being used for the intended purpose and been used

effectively when corruption and capacity remain obstacles? i wonder how long it will take until they are no longer a major obstacles. there is a call for $4.5 3 billion in funding for economic support funds. when you take that and compare it to our own business loan to administration programs that total about $574 million, that is roughly 1/3 of the not responding to afghanistan for economic support. it is hard for my constituents to understand in this difficult economy the we're investing those kinds of resources in afghanistan when we have urgent needs here.

with the corruption, it makes it even more difficult for people to understand. when can we expect the afghan people to do this work on their own? >> i understand and sympathize with the legitimate questions of your constituents and americans everywhere. i think the drawdown of troops in iraq represents a large net savings to the american taxpayers. the withdrawal on a measured basis, the civilian assistance is a small amount of the money spent. the vast majority is out of

duty -- dod for security. we think we are on the right track. with respect to capacity and corruption, corruption remains a fundamental challenge around the world. it is one of our biggest problems. it is a cancer in countries where leaders care more about enriching themselves and their associates as opposed to making investments that will provide a better future for their own people. the key is to build institutional capacity and create systems. that is what we're doing in afghanistan. we're taking an integrated approach. the largest sums of money being corruption have come from the enormous amount of money associated with military activities.

we're committed to this. we are promoting enforcement of anti-corruption laws. we're doing ethics training. we're including civil servants and judiciary in that. we support the major crime task force. it is intended to prosecute cases in the afghan justice system. the fbi, department of justice, and others are working with their counterparts agencies. we continue to go after the poppy trade and corruption that comes from drug trafficking. we have improved our accountability for those who have anything to do with american funding. we work with our partners to do the same. we are committed to transparency and accountability.

we know there remains a problem as it does in other parts of the world where we do business. >> i will try to make this to the point. last time we talked about the safety of camp ashraf in march. later the soldiers came in and killed people. people disagree on how it occurred, but it did happen. maliki has made it clear the camp will close. when we went into iraq this summer, we met with him on the issue of the camp. it got very key to. we wanted to go see it. he refused to let us see it.

we later learned that we had been invited to leave the country based on the discussion with him. the number one thing he said about the way iraq treated ca mp ashraf was the u.s. designation. he said they were treated that way because the united states have designated them as a foreign terrorist organization. my concern is the safety of the people when the 31st comes. they are in fear. 85 of them are americans. others are permanent residents of the u.s.. what are we doing to make sure they extend the deadline so that people can do what is necessary to get out of iraq and somewhere in the world?

there is the long-term issue of the mek designation. i was encouraged by your words last night on that. >> i can assure you that i am personally focused on trying to make sure that we protect the safety of the residents of the camp. our administration strongly condemned the violence that led to the deaths. 36 residents died because of the violence on april 8. we are monitoring this situation as closely as we can. we see no evidence suggesting there is any other imminent attack. we continue to urge the government of iraq to show

restraint. we do have written assurances from the government of iraq to treat the ashraf residency mainly, follow their international obligations as long as the residents remain in the country, not to transfer anyone to any country where that person could be persecuted as a result of their beliefs. we are trying to nail down as much as we can to provide some protective screen for the residents. we know we have pushed the unhcr to do more to move as many status determinations as they can. . this is an area of deep concern to us.