president obama had a couple of president -- veterans day event. and absorbance -- an observance at the amphitheater. now, from phoenix, arizona, the life of barry goldwater is profiled in "the contenders." >> wherever he goes, he speaks out on the issues. he answers exactly where he stands on domestic and foreign policy. everywhere he goes, people are responding with enthusiasm for this new and different kind of statement. barry goldwater has been constantly on the go. it is a grueling schedule. whenever he can, he catches a quick nap, here with his nap peggy. and with his wife peggy. he is calling for courage and

integrity and meeting problems. he is calling for an end to do nothing policies. he is calling for a rebirth of individual freedom. >> we base our reliance on freedom. we reject, therefore, the ideas of the economic planners in washington. a group of people sitting in washington can plan when the country is going to make, where it is going to be made, the quality of the product, the price of the product, the wages to be made, the profits to be made, etc.. in simpler terms, this is called socialism. it has never worked in the history of the earth. it is not working today in countries where it has been tried. >> republican presidential candidates barry goldwater campaign in 1964. c-span's "the contenders" coming

to you from phoenix, arizona. we look at his political influence during the second half of the 20th century. we welcome you tonight and our audience at the goldwater institute and our three guests who will walk us through the life and political career of barry goldwater beginning with rick perlstein. he has written for "the nation ," and is also the author of the book "nixonland." darcy olsen darcyolsen -- also, darcy olsen. her editorials have appeared in the washington journal and the national review. he served two turn to the state legislature including one term in the senate. he has produced 90 documentary's including "barry goldwater, an

american life." he called himself a different kind of a candidate for a different kind of an election year. how so? >> i think the thing that may have most different is that he was a reluctant presidential candidate. if we think about all of the people running for president in 2012, we cannot say any of them are reluctant. it is a full-time job. it is consuming. ever since 1960 when the first group of people came to barry goldwater and tried to draft him and said we want to make to a presidential candidate, he would say that is the last thing on my mind. i don't want to run for president. he once even said i do not have the brains to be president. over and over again, he said we don't care. we are going to draftee. that is what happened. he pretty much was drafted by followers to raise money and built an organization on his own. >> we will talk about this

letter. the assassination of john kennedy. how did that influence his decision to go ahead in 1964. what's he was inching toward doing it in the fall of 1963. one of the reasons was president kennedy had introduced a civil rights bill that was beginning to build a strong backlash. there were people talking about president kennedy being vulnerable in 1964. goldwater was close to kennedy and he liked kennedy. when john kennedy was assassinated, it is hard to reconstruct the context and our minds. it was so care wing for the american people. people like extremism. people blame the ideological politics that americans did not want to believe as part of their political system. barry goldwater and immediately lost interest. it was another month and a half before he answered the call of one more group of people coming to him and begging him saying it

was his duty to support the pr republican cause. >> this book was the manifest of why he was running. the ideology that shaped him. in the piece of film which showed you, he talked about freedom and free enterprise and the failed socialist experiment that democrats were pushing in the 1960's. >> barry goldwater stood for one thing. he was very clear about it. that was freedom. that but today is just as relevant as it was when it was written 50 years ago. barry goldwater would say, circumstances change. principles do not. when he was getting ready to run for office, he said, as i survey the landscape at look at the questions that might occur to me, the most important concern that i will have -- the most important question i will ask myself is, are we maximizing

freedom? that was the beginning and the end of his political analysis. >> take us back to 1964 and walk us through barry goldwater in the u.s. senate for two terms. what led him to this point on the national stage? >> really in a sense the simplicity of his perspective. simplicity as compared to more complicated politics. we have to go back. you have to look at barry goldwater in the context of his times. his family came here in the 1950's. he grew up and dusty little phoenix that had 8000 or 9000 people at the time. life was more simple here than it was in the east. when he was born it was not a state for two or three more years. but his life style -- this was

part of the old west at that time. it was not new york city and what ever. you have to look at barry goldwater from his family history, it meant a lot to him. up until world war ii, what was life like here? it was very simple. it was very unsophisticated. it was black and white. it was right and wrong it was the old west. i bring that up because that is what shapes -- where did he get these views which i call small l libertarian. it was the context in which he grew up. you ask me a question but i cannot remember what the question was pure >> what led us to 1964, and what shape is ideology in the 1950's? >> it was truthfully what i just

said. it was simple. i do not mean that in a negative way. it was sort of simple. there was right and wrong. there was good and bad and it is and bat and the other. you get into world war ii which he served in. remember, world war ii was the major good vs. bad thing. and we get into the cold war with the soviet union. all of these things from barry goldwater's perspective for pretty black and white -- especially compared to today's politics where you don't know quite who is doing what to goma. -- to whom. he was the personification of good versus bad, right versus wrong, whether you agree with him or not. i think that had a lot of appeal by the time the 1950's and certainly 1964 came about.

>> i'm going to come back later and ask you about your impressions of him. let's focus on the 1964 race. you had other dented the race like governor scranton of pennsylvania who was in and out again. nelson rockefeller spent a lot of money to try to secure the nomination. walk us through how the search candidates challenged barry goldwater. >> the republican party was a different institution and then it is now. it was controlled by moderates and even liberals. the entire ideology of the party system was different. each party had in it both conservatives and liberals. the democratic party's had very conservative members in the south and liberals in the north. the republicans had a conservative wing from the midwest and a republic -- a liberal wing from the northeast. with the barry goldwater campaign was all about was trying to take over the party

from the bottom up -- the bottom up being these conservative ideological activists. they had their meetings and country clubs and very fancy places. it was presumed that someone like nelson rockefeller was the heir apparent for the republican nomination. the idea that a conservative could have won the nomination was absolutely seen as a possible by the pundits. the pundits then said that america was a liberal center- left consensus. when dwight eisenhower not only embraced in the new deal but even expanded it, opening up something like the department of health, education, and welfare. instituting the interstate. it was just presumed that the conservatism of the 1920's, which was seen as something that have gotten us into the

depression was no longer relevant to modern life. >> in your book, you point out to dump key primaries that were critical in 1964. oregon which nelson rockefeller one and a california which barry goldwater 1. >> california was an absolutely fascinating knock down drag out political fight. i talked earlier about how barry goldwater had these impassioned supporters who would do what ever they want even if barry goldwater told them not to do it. these are people from groups like the john birch society. some were segregationists. they were far right extremists. they were basically willing to knock on doors until there knuckles were bloody. they were willing to sabotage other campaigns. it was seen as the fight for civilization itself. the other candidates -- the liberal candidates were seen as

these sort of harbingers of the socialism that they believed was destroying civilization itself. it was incredibly impassion. >> two years after richard nixon lost his governorship, he was still a player in the republican party in 1964. he was trying to figure out a way the party might turn to him if they did not want to rockefeller or barry goldwater. >> you mention the oregon primary. he established a secret boiler room in which people were hired to make phone calls to voters saying, would not be able to meet idea if richard nixon was drafted to be president? this is richard nixon we are talking about. someone found out about it. a camera crew showed up. richard nixon was scheming and he was always hoping that barry goldwater and rockefeller were not point -- would knock each

other out. there was a cartoon that showed them having a shootout in the middle of an old western town. richard nixon was rubbing his hands. richard nixon's political undertaker's parlor. we as always want to hear from you. our phone lines are open. if you live in the eastern or central time zone. 202-737-0002 if you live in the pacific time sons. we also will get questions from the audience. it will show you political ads from 1964. you remember this campaign. how did lyndon johnson run against barry goldwater? was his tactic? >> rottenness. he ran a very smart campaign. he made barry goldwater the issue as opposed to the issues being the issue. the barry goldwater was painted as a crazy person. there were things put out by the

johnson campaign that some groups of psychiatrists and a america came out with a statement that barry goldwater was mentally ill. some of you probably remember that. the nuclear bomb commercial which only aired one time. it got a lot of attention. it was designed by bill morris actually. it was a totally do the guy in kind of campaign. >> it is important to realize the nuclear stuff did not come out of nowhere. in his book he made a strong argument that a craven fear of death had crept into the american psyche. people were so afraid of nuclear war that they did not want to confront the soviet union. there was a good reason people

were afraid to can be to confront the soviet union all out war would have meant the end of civilization itself. it frees people out that if we are afraid of going to war with the soviet union, we are on a path to surrender. that was a genuinely frightening notion, especially after the cuban missile crisis when people came within hours of armageddon itself. he did have some very unconventional ideas about the necessity of confronting the soviet union had on militarily pierre >> will talk a little later on about the iconic daisy @. we have put together some 1964 adds to get a sense of the issues and personality of that campaign. >> this particular fought only

brings in a serious crisis. even in the hands of a man who has proven himself responsibly. but for president johnson on november 3. >> the people ask barry goldwater. >> i have a question for mr. goldwater. we keep hearing about hot wars, cold war, and brushfire wars. i have an older brother who is serving in the armed forces. i want to know what people do to keep us out of a worker >> let me assure you here and now, i have said that in every corner of the land and i will continue to say it, a cold water administration will mean much -- once more that the present policy of strength groupies that was the hallmark of the eisenhower administration. it served the cause of freedom and avoided the word during the last republican administration. it will do so again. we are the party of preparedness

and the party of peace. >> in your heart, you know he is right. vote for barry goldwater. >> on october 24, 1963, barry goldwater said the nuclear bomb is merely another weapon. merely another weapon? vote for president johnson. the stakes are too high for you to stay home. >> graft! swindle! juvenile delinquency! crime! riots! hear what barry goldwater has to say about our lack of moral leadership. >> the leadership of this nation has a clear challenge to go to work effectively and go to work immediately to restore proper

respect for law and order in this land and not just prior to election day either. america's brightnesses witness of her people. let this generation make a new market for that greatness. what this generation set a standard of responsibility that will inspire the world. >> and your heart, you know he is right. but for barry goldwater. >> you look back at those campaigns from 1964, your reaction? >> a lot of different thoughts come to mind when i see that a re including how many of these commercials inspired modern-day political commercials. what i take away is the slogan "in your heart, you know he is right." i think the american people proved that 15 years later when they elected ronald reagan when he campaigned on an identical platform but with different

packaging and a little bit more loss. this messaging -- you were talking about with the soviet union and how barry goldwater had it too much bravado and it was gearing people. that is what ronald reagan won on and one with. i think that speaks a lot about the timing and what is happening socially when you are campaigning and how important that is and how it compliance is whether or not you get through with your ideas. >> two very different approaches. a different tactic by the cold water campaign tour >> i think about how embarrassingly atrocious they were. the barry goldwater team or not very professional for all kinds of interesting reasons. barry goldwater wanted to have people and brought him he felt comfortable with. he hired his arizona friends who were not national political

professionals. the lead in johnson advertisements for made by an advertising agency. it produced one of barry goldwater the barry ads which is in talking to eisenhower. it was a total bust. is that i will never give to this campaigned again. this guy's name was shocked list in its chain. he has passed away. -- chuck. he said i never had a lot of experience with tv. he said he never watched tv. it was the barry goldwater campaign. >> we are going to be showing during the course of this evening some of the documentary that you have put together -- some of the original work. he worked with barry goldwater how long to get this put together? >> i think specifically on the process probably six months. >> was there but thing you did not know about barry goldwater that you learned in putting this

together? >> his language. [laughter] >> elaborate. >> he has a very colorful language. i was going to tell a story, but i really have to clean it up. i will tell the story. i will clean it up. one of the last times i was with him, i walked into his living room and he was sitting in an barca lounger watching tv. i said, how are you doing? he looked at me and said -- here is the clean up part -- the myng racoons are s'ing in fireplace. people did not know but we have recons in the desert. a mother raccoon had climbed up on its roof and come down the chimney. what you call the thing in the fireplace? he gave birth to a litter of

raccoons. the raccoons were doing their business so to speak in the fireplace. that was his comment. >> on that note, let's go to martin from texas. we look at the life and career of barry goldwater and his 1964 presidential bid. >> good evening. the reason i am calling in on veterans day. i happen to be a retired captain from illinois. i like to tell my friends not so much the history of how many times i met barry goldwater accidentally but i was first influenced being a democratic can man from illinois where my cousin became the supreme court

justice, head of state of illinois, attorney-general. i will not go on. it was a world war ii texas a &m colonel in the air force -- excuse me, army and later airforce that influenced me to vote for barry goldwater. interestingly enough, i like to say to my texas friends, i am one of the few guys left that remembers on monday hearing fdr when i was 7 years old give the day of infamy speech. i ran into barry goldwater a couple of times in a little restaurant that he looked on connecticut avenue. one time i was there my boss to happen to be a civilian world war ii pilot, i introduced barry goldwater to my boss. my boss said, why did you introduce me to the senator? i said, he knows another robert stafford. he got such a kick out of this.

how long have you known barry goldwater? i said i have only met him a couple of times in the rest of. anyway, the man was a fantastic individual. the only time i went to the senate's was when barry goldwater was presiding. the sky was a beautiful man. one last memory is, i went to wright patterson air force base, happen to be going there on business. my wife and young son were there. i said, why don't you go down to the museum. that was the date barry goldwater and jimmy stewart the met -- dedicated the first wing of the museum. they both came by and check in with my wife and son. i wished i had had that experience to meet the other general jimmy stewart. anyway, i wanted to share that. what a wonderful man he was.

>> thank you for the call. he was a pilot. he was a ham radio operator. he took a lot of pictures. >> it is important to recognize that a lot of powerful rich people -- barry goldwater which barry goldwater was -- used their power to get out of military service. he used his power to get into the military. he was a pretty old guy. he took on duty in a very dangerous air route. they called it the aluminum trail because so many planes went down. he has this fascination with flying the latest military hardware. one time in 1964 he had this very sensitive meeting with lyndon johnson and about how they would handle the issue of race riots. london johnson spent hours of preparing. there was an entire memo that was going to guide his

incredibly delicate ago seasons. the meeting lasted 15 seconds and then barry goldwater was like, when do i get to try this new plan that is coming out? "let's go back to the campaign. it was a landslide for lyndon johnson. why such a disparity? was barry goldwater misunderstood in the campaign? >> a lot of reasons. first of all, people were terrified of the prospect of nuclear war. people -- lyndon johnson was dishonest on issues like the and not. there was a bumper sticker that showed up the next year, and said if i voted for barry goldwater there would be a war in vietnam. i voted for barry goldwater, and there was.

his ideological time had not come. also, i mentioned the atrocious campaign he ran. i found a memo that inspired the the research staff. i found a formal letter they sent out to political science professors and every state. it said, dear prof., please send us any books or pamphlets about the political situation in "insert state here." this was not a professional operation. >> i am a retired cpa. i have lived in central phoenix for 53 years. as a person who knew barry goldwater and worked with him in the community, i knew him to be a man of impeccable integrity and who is ticket -- dedicated to the proposition of personal responsibility. when he ran for president, it seemed to me from my perspective that the pundits you mentioned

earlier went out of their way to print and broadcast atrocious and a dishonest statements about him. there is a national magazine to this day i do not take because of the things they said about barry goldwater that were out right and true. my question is, why did the national press and so many prominent people go out of their way to be so vindictive against a man who based upon what has already been said was going to lose? >> i would set a couple of things. a lot of his followers were very frightened. you can charge that to barry goldwater or you can say that was not his fault. he did not like to distance himself from people who were devoted to him. he also have to understand the context of the times. fascism and nazism was a living memory for just about every

adult. the idea of people getting together with such rage against liberals. when barry goldwater did a very famous speech at the 1960 convention in which she said, conservatives, let's grow up. recanted this party back. he said we need to defeat the democrats working for the destruction and this nation. passions were very high. political passions of that magnitude were greatly feared. he was kind of caught up in that in an unfair way. had to deal with the context of the belief that if people -- darker angels were allowed to bring rain in the political system, we but not be able to control the consequences. this was a time, of course, when a civil rights terrorism in places like mississippi. people were burning down for it -- people were burning down

churches. people were assassinating civil rights workers. people were saying why is it in a place like mississippi where all of this stuff is going on was voting 87% for barry goldwater? >> >> he did vote against it. we'll go to george joining us from manassas, virginia. welcome to "the contenders" program and our look at barry goldwater. >> thank you very much. thanks for doing this show. my parents volunteered for barry goldwater. my question to y'all was he more of a libertarian? or more of a serve? there is a difference if you look at it. >> dr. olson? >> well, you're right in it there with that question.

liz book was called "the conscience of a conservative." she felt like he was a conservative, that he was a true conservative who understood that this nation was founded on the concept of constitutionally limited government, and that was true in all spheres of life, that you couldn't pick and choose where you would have government involvement. if it wasn't in the constitution, then it wasn't constitutional and therefore the government shouldn't be involved. so today, i mean there are a lot of libertarians that wear that man tell. a lot of different folk miss the tea party movement and candidates for president. i won't be the one to define him as a libertarian or conservative. he used the term conservative, and i think that what he stood for was as close to what the founding fathers stood for as any prominent person in our

history. >> this book, what personality came through from barry goldwater? what did you learn how to who he was as a person? >> i think what people have been saying, that he was a guy who shot from the hip and he didn't care what people thought of him. you know, much to his detriment often. people talk about him as an honorable man. but by the same token, i think ideologically he could be very naive. so i mentioned the civil rights terrorism that was going on in mississippi. the fact that people were being shot in cold blood for doing things like helping people register to vote. he never denounced that. he said his appeal to people of the south was i'm not going to as an arizonan tell people in mississippi what they should do. when civil rights are being that egregiously violated, i think

there's a kind of which side are you on question. so i think that his heart was in the right place. he believed he was doing the right thing. but i think he had a certain myopia when it came to a real ordeal that he avoided at that time. >> i want to talk about the libertarian conservative. you have to look in the context of his time. i wouldn't be surprised if during his life, and certainly while he was in the senate, he probably never heard the word libertarian. that wasn't even a word. that was heard of at the time. i call him a small l libertarian, because he basically believed in freedom of choice as he came later in his career after politics. he was outspoken in favor of gay

rights. a woman's right to choose. all sorts of things like that. and some of my friends would say oh, senile and he became a big liberal in the end. he changed. he didn't change. his philosophy was always. it's up to you as an individual to have the right to decide, whether it was about gay rights or abortion rights or labor unions, the whole thing from the 50's where he's totally misunderstood, i might note. he was a small l libertarian. today we have, you know, all sorts of politicians and presidential hopefuls running around talking about libertarian, libertarian this and that. >> you've done a perfect job of setting up this next piece. to give you a sense of the personality and style of barry goldwater.

>> he talks so fast. you know, sitting there trying to listen to you reminds me of trying to read "playboy" magazine with my wife turning the pages. [laughter] >> i happen to think i'm in a pretty tough race. i'm spending the money that i legally can. that's the answer. in fact, it's a stupid question, if you don't mind my saying so. >> i'll read the record. >> i never said that airplane wouldn't fly. >> you said you wouldn't. >> people all over the country keep talking about legalized gambling. and i thought we already had it. it's called election day. [applause]

>> i now realize what it takes to be a president. it helps to have a brother sent to the gas station drinking beer all day. when i was campaigning many that razor-thin election in 1964, i should have told everyone that dean was my brother. [laughter] >> you wanted to jump in earlier. >> he actually pioneered what would become social conservatism. he gave a very sharp speech about the moral decay of nation. it was mormon tabernacle in salt lake city. but he also used some of that salty language that we need to censor when he referred to the christian rights.

jerry follow will, said in 1981 that all good christians should be very concerned about sandra day o'connor. if i may, he said all good christians should kick jerry followill in the ass. >> paul, you're on. >> i was just curious to know what your panel thinks. how would he have handled vietnam differently than lyndon johnson did? would he have escalated the war, or have seen it as a civil war between the knot and south vietnamese? >> thanks for the question. >> whether he would have been successful or not, i don't know.

but i was of that generation. vietnam war under lyndon johnson was gradualism. we're going to tighten the screw and eventually they're going to give up. yeah right. i think if barry had been president, and i'm not saying it would have been a good move or a bad move. i'm not sure. but i think he would have come in with with what later became the co-lynn powell doctrine. if you're going to go to war, you have to go with the attitude that you want to win it in the next hour. that's his attitude. then he said we lost the war in vietnam for one reason. the politicians tried to run the war. in his quote. and politicians don't know their ass from a hot rock about running a war. that was his quote. i think he would have taken a far more aggressive approach to

it, as compared to johnson's gradualism, which dragged out almost as long as our current wars. >> what kind of a president would he have been? >> barry would have been something we don't see too often today. i think he would have been a very honest president. i think he would have been very candid as he was his whole life. that was the way he campaigned how he was after office. i think that candor is something that people loved about barry goldwater and it's one of the reasons that so many people sought out barry goldwater, even after he was in office and he was so well-respected and liked by so many people. because you knew with barry goldwater where you stood. he always put his principles

first. he kind of had a tenure to sometimes messaging and what people might think. and he put his principles before partisanship, before party, before politics. it's hard to say whether he would have been able to work with congress that way. but it's an exercise that i would have liked to have seen. >> we are in week 10 of "the contenders" series. we are in phoenix, arizona. we have an audience here as well. we'll get another question right up front. >> thank you. kevin lane. i recall barry was interviewed in the 1980's when russia had just gone into afghanistan. his quote was he had been in those hills and a right-minded goat would not wander into those hills. he forecasted that russia would lose. and obviously, we're quite bogged down in afghanistan.

so my question to the panel is maybe some other examples of his wisdom in his life as far as being ahead of his time. >> you're shaking your head. >> i think that is a great question and goes back to what kind of a president would he have been, and one of the things we know he would have done differently is he would not have vastly expanded the welfare state in america. he was fighting against that. he said there were all kinds of federal programs that were unconstitutional that needed to be repealed. he was unabashed about that. he certainly did not agree with the levels of taxation that we had then, let alone the levels of taxation that we have now. he was very against the type of progressive taxation that was put into place and has become more and more predominant. he felt like taxation should be minimal and fair per person, so if you give 10%, i give 10%. rick gives 10%. rick is going to pay 90%, you're

not going to pay anything. so those are some major differences. also, since that time, and certainly lyndon johnson worked on this as well, but this vast expansion of government into all of these social arenas, including education, for which there is no constitutional authority. all of those things are things that barry goldwater bar would have fought hard against. >> let's go back to where your book begins and talk about his influence here in arizona as he tried to build the republican party in the late 1940's. >> it's a fascinating story. it was a democratic state. when he ran for the senate, i think that there were 92 members of the lower house. it might have been 96, and two of them were democratic. he came from a republican family, his mom was a americanner. she was a republican. -- a mevener. she was a republican. also, for the new defense

industries that were opening up in arizona. >> and before he entered politics, he did what? >> he was an executive at the family department store. he was actually, interestingly enough, we talk about him being a straight-shooting guy. he was actually the marketing guy for the department store. but he -- a guy named eugene polian moved to phoenix and he was a newspaper publisher. he was actually dan quayle's father-in-law, and he really wanted to help build a republican party, and also build a nonpat syrian city government to build up what was a corrupt town. barry goldwater was involved in both. in 1950, he was the campaign manager for a guy named howard pyle, who ran for governor, and being barry goldwater, he flew howard pyle around the state in his plane. he would descend like a bronze god to these little towns and people would say wow, which one's the candidate? but here's the thing. when he ran for senate, he decided that he would run for senate by building a republican

party. so he recruited people for every office in the state. someone said why are you qualified to run for senate in arizona? he was such a first citizen of arizona, his answer was i can call 10,000 people in the state by their first name. he build the republican party in arizona. >> and i'm going to call on you for just a moment, because you remember going to the goldwater department store. >> correct. when i first came to arizona in 1970, i worked for the old adams hotel, which was in downtown, and i bought a bathing suit at the goldwater department store on central avenue. and at the time, you talk about him being in marketing, they gave you with every purchase a little vile of water that has gold flakes in it. and everybody that had flown in from texas to buy that hotel all when i went back to the hotel all ran down and bought a bathing suit so they could get a

vile of water with gold flakes in it. so he was good at marketing. >> i just wanted to comment about the 1952 election. barry ran against ernest mcfarland, the majority leader of the united states senate at that time. he raised money for him and all that. barry didn't like or was upset with harry truman, which is ironic today because what former president was barry most like, harry truman, actually. but barry told me many times, he says i ran for president, i knew i didn't have a chance in hell of winning. but even in the senate, he didn't think he had a chance of winning that 1952 senate race. at all. so maybe he was building a republican party.

he had been on the city council for two years and then he sort of decided to run against harry truman in most senses. but he didn't. he was not some big political organizer who said let's build a republican party here. it was sort of natural. but it wasn't like he had some big plan to do that. he was just running thinking he didn't have a chance in hell of winning. >> well, we came across some early film of senator barry goldwater after he was elected to the senate. but before coming to washington, d.c. let's look. >> speaking of washington, where you're going, there is a great deal of talk on the part of the republicans doing the campaign about communism in washington and the mess in washington. do you anticipate finding anything like that when you take your seat in the senate? >> well, i don't know. i can't say. i think that there must be communism in washington, but i

would hate to stand up and say there is without knowing more about it. >> let me put it this way, is there any fear or concern about communism and about the so called mess in washington among the people who voted for you out in arizona? >> i think the fear of communism is one of the underlying reasons for the success of the republican party in this election, all over the country. >> now that the republican party is in, do you think there will be any letting down of this concern, any complacency on the part of the people who voted for you? >> i think there's already happened. >> in what way? >> i am amazed to walk around new york to find in my own communities -- well, general eisenhower has been elected. the new deal has been thrown out. we can go back to our work the same as usual. and as always happens in politics, the man who benefits the most from good government goes on with the least interest in it, and that's mr. average citizen. >> are you going to do anything to point out the need for

continuing concern over the situation in washington? >> i'll never be quiet about it. >> from 1952, never be quiet, that became his mantra as senator and candidate in 1964. who helped him win the 1952 race? >> he had a very slick operator, a name familiar to arizona in steven shadic. he wasn't necessarily the most favored guy. he once wrote a book on "how to win an election." he would do things like -- they sent out 50,000 postcards all hand signed by volunteers from barry. he would do things like -- he said if the situation is profishes, you can get millions of people to vote for someone who has the absolute opposite ideology that they do. so he was a very tough campaign manager. >> we have a question here in the audience. please introduce yourself and go

ahead. >> good evening. my name is richard muser. i was 16 months old when we move to arizona, so i claim to be a native. it's a pleasure to hear the information about senator goldwater from so many experts. the reason i am here is because in the second grade, i met a gentleman named bill mccuban and we have been friends since then. in 1964, i was a lowly specialist fourth class in the army in fort benning, georgia. i wasn't old enough to vote at that time because arizona was 21 and i was only 20. when i listened to the senator discuss using low yield nuclear weapons in vietnam, it made sense to me as a military person, and it made sense to a lot of my fellow soldiers at the

same time. the point that the johnson campaign exaggerated, the impact of using these huge hiroshima bombs was a total exaggeration. he was an air force man. he knew what low yield meant and what it would do. and my question is what was wrong with the term low yield that i believe i only heard it once or twice. >> rick, you wrote about that in the book. >> yeah, i actually talked to one of the physicists that design some of those low yield nuclear weapons. he said it was absolutely insane to believe that you could contain the explosions from those weapons. so i'm not so sure that it's true. >> i want to comment, only because dick music brought this

up. we grew up in the same neighborhood over by 25th drive north of thomas road. in about 1950 through 1954, that period, my father would wake me and my brothers up at 4:00 in the morning on a couple of occasions. we would go up on to the roof of our house and sit facing north. my dad had his watch and he would tell us there's one minute, 30 seconds. and we would see nuclear atomic bombs explode at the test sites aboveground, nuclear bombs exploding on the test sites in nevada, which was, what, 300 miles away. i mean, four or five times, i thought -- i'm one of the few people alive today who's ever seen a nuclear bomb explode. maybe some of you have, too. hopefully nobody else ever will

again. but this was a ritual, we'd watch the nuclear bombs going off in nevada. the point is, i thought why are we dropping nuclear bombs on nevada? i thought they were on our side. [laughter] but realizing that whether it was 250 or 300 miles away to those test sites. it would light up. it's like summer flashlight thing, if you know what that means, except it the light would stay in the air longer tham summer lightning. -- than summer lightning. wow, that's 300 miles away. think about that. that kind of thing is what contributes to the great fear of the soviet union and nuclear war. >> let me put a domestic issue on the table. organized labor and the legislative record that senator goldwater had. >> extremely important in barry goldwater's rise. of course, arizona became the first right to work state, the circle that he was in, his friends, people like dennis mc

kitchle, he was the labor lawyer for the big mining company. he argued before the supreme court. the idea that fighting labor power was essential to conservative politics was absolutely part of what barry goldwater was all about. he basically rose to national prominence in the late 1950's on two kind of wings. the first was he gave a speech attacking dwight eisenhower for a big budget, which he called squander bus spending and the siren song of socialism. the other was there was a big labor hearing in the late 1950's run by senator mcclellan. and it was meant to take on jimmy hoffa's corruption. barry goldwater kept on interrupting. he would say things like well i would rather have jimmy hoffa

stealing my money than walter rutha stealing my freedom. walter rutha was head of the united auto workers, who pioneered like the automatic cost of living increase. he was fighting to make the operations and corporations much more transparent. he was the most political aggressive labor leader in history. by taking on sbun like walter rutha, businessmen flocked to barry goldwater as their savior. these were the guys, these businessmen were the people who ended up organizing the group that under barry goldwater's nose without him being involved at all put together a conscience of conservative and first put him forward as a presidential candidate. >> can i disagree with what he said? >> sure. >> my experience with barry and interviewing him, he wasn't -- i'm convinced he wasn't against unions.

i mean, the small libertarian thing. he said many times in our shows, to join a union or not join a union, it's their personal voice. he was most vociferous about corruption in the unions and he really didn't like the -- what do you call it? the closed shop, where you had to join a union in order to have a job. >> doesn't like weak unions. >> well, -- >> i'll build on what you're saying there. i think that's absolutely correct. >> it's 2-1. >> he believed that unions were an expression of human freedom. if you joined them voluntary. he believed wholeheartedly in freedom of association. he thought that was great if you wanted to join. what he didn't believe in is what unionism has become, which is compulsory, forced membership. and that was something that he vehemently opposed. so yuff a situation today where

they're trying to take away the right to vote by secret ballot when you're forming a union. that was something that he opposed. there was the issue of -- what was his other big issue -- >> right to work. >> yeah, right to work. where they were making membership compulsory and it was a condition of employment, which he said that is against everything we believe in as americans. he fought for right to work laws in the states. but he didn't oppose the idea of associating unions. he opposed this idea of what unions have become, which is forcing people to do things against their will, completely contrary to everything that barry goldwater believed. >> marvin has been waiting. we'll go to him next in los angeles. >> thank you for your program. i'm wondering if barry goldwater were alive today with his life span of points of view, could he get the nomination of the

republican party? that's the first part of my question. and number two, based on the extreme right wing state of some leaders in arizona politics, as in the election last tuesday were jerry lewis defeated a leader in the senate, how would barry goldwater have stood in the ideas of the current plan party in the state of arizona? thank you very much. >> thank you. so two points. first, could barry goldwater get the nomination today? >> no, because he would have been vetoed by the christian rights. i'm looking over some of these quotes. they're stunning. this is what he said in 1981. can anyone look at the carnage in iran, the bloodshed in northern ireland and the bombs bursting in lebanon and question the dangers of injecting religious issues into the affairs of states? he believed very firmly by the end of his political career that people who enter politics from a religious motivation are so

impassioned and so impervious to compromise that it made the give and take necessary for politics impossible. which is so ironic, because in 1964, extremism and defensive liberty is no vice. that's what he was accused of at the time. but he did come to an extreme firm and extreme passioned notion, he didn't even want pat robertson to run for president in 1988. he thought that was a violation of the separation of church and state. >> let me give with the first sentence in the first chapter of "conscience of a conservative." because barry goldwater said "i have been much concerned that so many people today with conservative instincts feel come pelled to polings for -- apologize for them. >> yeah, this book "conscience of a conservative," i think to this day remains the best statement of what it means to be a conservative in this country. he is so clear.

and i think earlier on, you had talked about -- you used the word "simple." i think for me, effs thinking prince -- i was thinking principled. not simpleton or simplicity. but it was clean. it was clear. and those principles are beautifully outlined in that book and it is just as good of a read today as it was back in the day. >> as an author and writer, i have to give some credit to the guy who actually wrote the book, which is a fellow named brent bow bush bozell. barry goldwater might have read it, but he definitely wasn't involved in the production of the book, which is a fascinating story i tell in my book. >> as he spoke to the delegates at the republican convention, which nominated vice president richard nixon. >> as an american who loves this republic and as a member of the senate, i am committed to the republican philosophy and