week, the c-span video library is the online resourced to find what you want when you want. index, searchable, cheryl. it is washington your way. then and now, from phoenix, arizona, the life of barry goldwater >> where ever he goes he speaks out, clearly and forcefully on the issues. explains exactly where he stands. everywhere he goes the people are responding with enthusiasm for this new and different kind of statesman. barry goldwater has been constantly on the go. it's a grueling schedule. and, when ever he can, he catches a quick nap here with his daughter peggy. and with his wife, peggy. soon it's back to the campaign where barry goldwater is calling for courage and integrity in meeting problems. he's calling for an end to do nothing policies, for progress

based on the dynamic principles of the republic. he's calling for a rebirth of individual freedom! >> we put our rely yanses on freedom, on the free enterprises. we reject therefore the ideas that the economic planners in washington and a group of people sitting in washington can plan what the country's going to make, where it's to be made. the quality of the product, the price as a product, the wages to be paid, the profit to be made, et cetera, et cetera. we know that this system which in terms is called socialism has never worked and is not working today in countries where it's been tried. >> republic condition presidential candidate barry goldwater campaigning in 1964. c-span's "the contenders" series coming to you tonight from the goldwater institute in phoenix,

arizona. as we look at goldwater's challenge to president lyndon johnson and his political influence during the second half of the 20th century. we welcome you tonight and our audience here at the goldwater institute and our three guests who will walk us through the life and political career of barry goldwater. beginning with the author of the best-selling book "barry goldwater before the storm." he has written for the nation magazine, new republic and the london review of books. thanks for being with us. and darcy allison also our host as the president and c.e.o. of the goldwater institute. she previously served as the director of education policy in washington, d.c. she has appeared in the "wall street journal" and the national review. and bill mchill who served two terms in the state legislator, including one term in the arizona senate. he has produced nine documentaries, including "barry goldwater, an american life." in your book and in his campaign

he called himself a different kind of a candidate for a different kind of election year. how so? >> i think that the thing that made him most different as a presidential candidate was that he was a reluctant presidential candidate. if you think of all the people running for president in 2012, we can't say any of them are reluctant. it's a full-time job. ever since 1960 when the first group of people came to barry goldwater and tried to draft him and said we want you to be a presidential candidate, he would also say one thing, that's the last thing on my mind. i don't want to run for president. once he even told the "chicago tribune" i don't think i have the brains to be president. over and over again it says we don't care, we're going to draft you. pretty much was drafted by incredibly passionate followers who raised money and built an organization on his own. he had to do it. >> we'll talk more about this later but the assassination of john kennedy, how did that influence his decision to go ahead in >> actually he was inching

towards possibly doing it in the fall of 1963. one of the reasons was because president kennedy had introduced a civil rights bill that was actually beginning to build a strong backlash. there were people -- goldwater liked kennedy. kennedy was assassinated, it was so harrowing for the american people. people blamed extremism. people blamed the kind of ideal politics that americans didn't want to believe were part of their political system. and barry goldwater immediately lost interest. more group of people coming to him, begging him and saying it was his duty that he had finally agreed to do it. >> in this book that came out,

and we'll talk more later, it was essentially the manifest of why he was running. and the ideology that shaped him in that piece of film that we showed at the top of the program, he talked about freedom and free enterprise and the failed soirblist i think experience that the democrats were pushing in the 1960's. >> right, well i mean barry goldwater is for one sitting. that was freedom. that book today is just relevant as it was when it was written 50 years ago. barry would say said as i survey the landscape and i look around at all the different questions that might occur to me, the most important concern that i will have, the most important question i will ask myself is are we maximizing freedom? that was the beginning and the end of his political analysis.

>> take us back to 1964 and walk us through barry goldwater in the u.s. senate after two terms. what led him to this point on the national stage? >> really in a sense the simplity of his perspective. i mean, simplicity as compared to more complicated politics. we have to go back. you got to look at barry goldwater in the context of his times. family came here in like the 1850's, ok? he grew up, born in 1909, dusty little phoenix that had eight or 9,000 people at the time. life was simple. life was simpler here than it was in the east. >> arizona wasn't even a state. >> when he was born it was not a state for two or three more years. but, just life style. this is part of the old west at that time. it wasn't new york city, you

know whatever. so you have to look at barry, let's say from family history which meant a lot to him. but up to world war ii what was life like here? it was very simple. it was very unsophisticated. it was black and white, it was right and wrong, it was the old west. it wasn't sophisticated east coast. i bring that up because that's what shaped where did he get these views, you know? which i call small libertarian, but very simple rules about right, wrong, this and that. it was the context in which he grew up. now you ask me a question but i can't remember the question was -- >> what led him to 1964 and what shaped his ideology in the 1950's until he ran in 1964? >> well, truthfully what i just said, it was simple. and i don't mean that in a negative way. but i mean it was sort of

simple. there was right and wrong and there was good and bad and this and that and the other. you get into world war ii which he served in very much. remember world war ii was the major right versus wrong, good versus bad thing. and then you get into the cold war and us versus the soviet union. all of these things from goldwater's perspective and from the times were pretty black and white, especially as compared to today's politics, where you don't know who's quite doing what to whom and say what. so i think that's what he was the personification of good versus booed, right versus wrong, whether you agree with him or not. he was sort of the personification of that. i think that had a lot of appeal by the time the 1950's and certainly 1964 came about. >> you met barry goldwater, and i'll come back later and ask you your impressions of him.

you had other names in the race, gov nar scranton, nelson rockefeller who spent a lot of money to secure the nomination. walk us through how these candidates challenged him and how he got the nomination. >> the republican party was a very different institution than it is now. it was controlled by moderates and even by liberals. and the whole ideology of the american party system was different. each party had within it both conservatives and liberals. the republican party had an isolationist conservative wing from the midwest. had a liberal wing in the northeast, people like jake javet and ken keeting. what it was all about was trying to take over the party from the bottom up, being the

conservative ideology aspects. they had their meetings in country clubs and very fancy places. and it was presumed that someone like nelson rockefeller was the heir apparent for the republican nomination the idea that a conservative could have won the nomination was absolutely seen as impossible by the pundants because pundits said america was enconsed within a liberal center left. that when dwight icen hower embraced the new deal but also expanded it, opening up the department of health and welfare. instituting the interstate, it was just presumed that the conservativism of the 1920's, which was seen as something that had gotten us into the depression was no longer relevant to modern life. >> in your book you point out two tee primaries that were

critical in 1964. oregon, in which nelson rockefeller won and in california where barry goldwater won. >> california was an absolutely fascinating knock down, drag out political fight. i talked earlier about how barry goldwater had these empassioned supporters who would do whatever they wanted even if barry goldwater told them not to do it. these are people who are from groups like the john birch society, some were segry investigationists, full of far right, as they were called at the time extremists. they were basically willing to knock on doors until their knuckles were bloody. they were willing to sabotage other campaigns. it was seen as a fight for civilization itself. because the other candidates, the liberal candidates, nelson rockefeller were seen as these sort of harbingers of the socialism they believe was

destroying civilization itself. it was incredibly impassionate. >> two years after richard nixon lost his governorship he was still a player and according to your book was trying to figure out a way the party might turn to him if he didn't want either rockefeller or goldwater. >> you mentioned the oregon primary. he actually established a secret boiler room in a basement. richard nixon in which people were hired to make phone calls at the voters saying what a neat idea that richard nixon was drafted to be president. this is richard nixon we are talking about. someone found out about it. and a camera crew showed up and that became a cropper. nixon was scheming and scamming, hoping that goldwater and rockefeller were knocking themselves out. there was this great cartoon in which it showed rockefeller and goldwater having a shoot-out in the middle of an old western

town. and nixon was rubbing his hands in the political undertaker parlor. [laughter] >> we as always want to hear from you. our phone lines are open. we'll show you some of the political ads from 1964. you remember this campaign, how did lyndon johnson run against barry goldwater? what was his tactic? >> rottenness. johnson ran a campaign. barry was painted as a crazy person. there were things put out by the johnson campaign that some group of psychiatrists in america came

out with. some statement that barry was mentally ill. some of yo will probably remember that and that he was crazy. and then of course the famous 10, nine, eight, seven, the nuclear bomb commercial which only aired one time but it got a lot of attention. it was designed by bill moyers actually. it was a totally do the guy in kind of, you know of a campaign. >> it's important to realize the nuclear stuff didn't come out of nowhere. he made a very strong argument that a craven fear of death had crept into the american psyche and by that he meant people were so afraid of nuclear war that they didn't want to confront the soviet union. well, there was a good reason that people were afraid to confront the soviet union, because all out war with the soviet union would have meant

the end of civilization itself. barry goldwater never flinched and it freaked people the heck out. the idea if we're afraid of going to war with the soviet union, even it means nuclear war we're on a path to surrender. that was the frightening notion, especially after the cuban missile crisis when people actually came within hours, or so they thought, of armageddon itself. he did have some very unconventional ideas about the necessity of confronting the soviet union head on with the military. >> we'll talk later about that iconic daisy ad bah we have put together some other 1964 ads to give you a sense of issues and the personality in that campaign. >> this particular zone only rings in a serious crisis. put it in the hands of a man

who's proven himself responsible. vote for president johnson on november 3. >> the people asked barry goldwater -- >> i have a question for mr. goldwater. i'm cynthia ford. we keep hearing about hot wars, cold wars and brush fire wars. i have an older brother now serving in the armed forces. i would like to know what mr. goldwater will do to keep us out of a war. >> let me assure you here and now and i've said this in every corner of the land throughout this campaign and i'll continue to tell you, in a goldwater-miller administration will mean once more proven policy of strength that was a hallmark of the eisenhower years. the approach is our approach. it avoided war during the last republican administration. it will do so again. we are the party of preparedness and the party of peace. >> in your heart, you know he's right. vote for barry goldwater.

>> on october 24, 1963, barry goldwater said of the nuclear bomb, merely another weapon. merely another weapon. vote for president johnson. the stakes are too high for you to stay home. >> graft! swindles! juvenile delinquency! crime! rye -- riots! hear what barry goldwater has to say about the lack of moral leadership. >> the leadership of this nation has a clear and immediate challenge to go to work effectively and go to work immediately to restore proper respect for law and order in this land and not just prior to election day either!

america's greatness is the greatness of her people. and let this generation then make a new mark for this greatness. let this generation of americans set a standard of responsibility that will inspire the world. >> in your heart you know he's right. vote for barry goldwater. >> the president and c.e.o. of this institute, you look back at those campaigns from 1964. your reaction? >> well, a lot of different thoughts come to mind when i see that array, including how many of these commercials inspire modern day political commercials. but what i take away from that is the, in your heart, you know he's right. i think the american people proved that when they elected ronald reagan who campaigned on virtually an identical platform but with a little bit differenting packaging and gloss. and this messaging, rick you

were talking about with the soviet union and how goldwater had too much bravado and it was scaring people. that is exactly what reagan ran on, won with and we have the history to tell the tale that that was the right public policy to pursue. i think that speaks a lot about the timing, and what is happening socially when you were campaigning and how important that is and how much that influences whether you get through with your ideas. >> two very different approaches. tony schwartz was behind a lot of the lyndon johnson ads as you wrote about in your book. a different tactic by the goldwater campaign. >> i think about how embarrassingly atrocious they with. the goldwater team was not very professional for all kinds of interesting reasons. one of them being barry goldwater the reluctant candidate wanted to have people around him to be comfortable with. so he hired all his arizona friends who were not necessarily national political professionals. the johnson commercials were made by the most sophisticated

advertising agency. i interviewed one of the guys who produced one of the big goldwater ads which is goldwater talking to eisenhower and it was a total bust. this guy's name was chuck licken steen. he has now passed away. he said you didn't watch the commercials? no, i don't watch tv. that was the goldwater campaign. >> some of the documentary you put together, you worked with barry goldwater for how long to put this together? >> oh, probably i think specifically on the project probably six months. >> was there one thing you didn't know about barry goldwater and his politics that you learned in putting this together? >> his language. [laughter]

>> elaborate. >> barry had very colorful language. i really have to clean it up. one of the last times i was with him, one of the very last times, i walked into his living room and he was sitting in a barko lounger watching tv. and i said hey senator how you doing? and he just looks at me and he says, now here's the clean-up part. the efficienting raccoons are effing in my fire place. and i said what? i didn't even know it until that day actually. a mother raccoon had climbed up on various roof and come down the chimney, what do you call in the fire place? the great and gave birth to a litter of baby raccoons.

and the raccoons were doing their business, so to speak in the fire place. and that was his comment. the cartoons areeffing in my fire place. >> good evening, martin. >> good evening. the reason i'm calling in veterans day, i happen to be a retired navy captain of the civil new england near corps from illinois. and i like to tell my friends not so much the times i met goldwater accidentally but i first was influenced being a democratic attorney general, well, i won't go on.

but it was a world war ii texas a & m colonel in the army later air force that influenced me to vote for goldwater. and interestingly enough i would like to say to my texas friends i'm one of the few guys left who remembers hearing f.d.r.'s day of imfa my speech. but i ran into goldwater in a restaurant he loved on connecticut avenue. one time i was there my boss who happened to be a civilian world war ii pilot named stafford, i introduced gold walter to my boss. and my boss says why did you introduce me to the senator? i said well, he knows another robert t. stafford and he got such a kick out of this. he said how long have you known goldwater? i said oh, i've only met him a

couple of times here in the restaurant. but anyway the man was a fantastic individual. the only time i ever went to the senate when i was a young naval officer was who was presiding what was barry goldwater. this guy was truly an interesting and a beautiful man. one last memory is that i went to wright patterson air force base, happened to be goig there on business as a civil engineer, and my wife and young son were there. i said why don't you go down to the museum? well that was the day that barry goldwater and jimmy stewart dedicated the first wing of the museum, and they both came by and shook hands with my wife and son. i wish that i had had the experience to e meet the other brigadier general jimmy stewart. i just wanted to share that on veterans day. what a wonderful man he was. >> martin, thank you for the call. he was a pilot, he was a radio

operator, had a lot of hobbies, took a lot of pictures. >> it's important for us to recognize that a lot of powerful, rich people which is what barry goldwater was from one of the richest families in the city, used their influence to get out of service. he pulled springs to get into the military. he was pretty old guy, and he took up duty in a dangerous air route in the china burma theater called the aluminum trail because so many planes went down. he has this fascination with flying the latest military hardware and one time in 1964, he had this very sensitive meeting with lyndon johnson about how they were going to handle the issue of race riots and lyndon johnson spent hours and hours preparing and there was this whole memo that was going to guide his incredibly delicate negotiations. the meeting ended up lasting 15

seconds but barry goldwater was like when do i get to try this new a-11 that's coming out? >> let's go back to the 1964 campaign, he received 38% of the vote, a landslide for lyndon johnson. why such a disparity and was barry goldwater misunderstood in the 1964 campaign? >> well, a lot of reasons. first of all, people were terrified of the prospects of nuclear war that he never really backed down from. johnson was dishonest about issues like vietnam. there was a bumper sticker that showed up the next year if i voted for barry goldwater there would be a war in vietnam. i voted for barry goldwater and there was. by the same token about roles in the federal government were not popular. when he said we should sell it, it was seen as crazy. and also i mentioned the

absolutely atrocious campaign he ran. i found a memo, they fired the research staff from r.n.c. and i found a form letter they sent out to political science professors in every state that said dear professor, please send us any books or pamflets about the political sation and then it said insert state here. so this was not a very professional operation. >> in addition to your calls we're welcoming questions from the audience here at the goldwater institute. we'll get one up front. >> i'm a retired c.p.a., have lived in central phoenix for 53 years. as a person who new barry and worked with him in the community, i knew him to be a man of impeccable integrity and was dedicated to the proposition of personal responsibility. when he ran for president, it seemed to me from my perspective that the pundits that you mentioned earlier went out of their way to print and broadcast

atrocious, dishonest statements. there's a national magazine i don't take because of the things they said about barry goldwater that were outright untrue. my question is why did the national press, so many people prominent the national level to be so vindictive against the man based upon was gunning to lose? >> i would say a couple of things, first of all he was very, very frightening. he didn't like to distance himself from people devoted to him. you also have to understand the context of the times. facism, naziism was a living memory for just about every adult. the idea of people getting together with such rage against

liberals. i mean when barry goldwater gave a speech at the 1960 convention in which he said conservatives let's grow up, we can take this party back, we need to defeat the democrats who are working for the destruction of this nation. so the passions were very high, and political passions of that intensity, of that magnitude were greatly feared. and it exaggerated a way. and testifies kind of caught up with that. i would say in an unfairway. but it had to do with the context of the belief that if people, darker angels were allowed to give reign within the american political system we would not be able to control the consequences. and this is a time of course, don't forget when there are civil rights terrorism in places like mississippi. people were burning down churches. people were assassinating civil rights workers and people were saying why is it that a place

like mississippi, when all this stuff is going on and the sheriffs were not arresting these people were voting 87% for barry goldwater? >> of course the 1964 civil rights debate and bill, a key part of that process. we'll talk about that later in the program. he did vote against it. we'll go to george joining us from manassas, virginia. welcome to "the contenders" program. and our look at barry goldwater. >> thank you very much and thanks for doing the show. my parents lived in midland, texas and volunteered for barry goldwater because they firmly believed at the ideas of what the man said. my question to you is was he more of a libertarian or more of a conservative? there is a difference, if you look at it. >> well, you are right in that. his book was called "the

conscience of conservatives," and he felt like he was a true conservative who understood that this nation was founded on the concept of constitutionally limited government, and that was true in all spheres of life that you could not pick and choose. if it was not in the constitution, then it was not constitutional in the government should not be involved. today, there are a lot of libertarians who wear the mantle, but there are a lot of modern conservatives who share those beliefs as well. we see that coming up in a lot of different stripes of the folks in the tea party movement and different candidates. i am not going to be the one to define him as a libertarian or conservative. he used the term conservative, and i think that what he stood for was as close to the founding father stood for as a prominent person in our history.

>> what personality came through from barry goldwater? what did you learn about and he was as a person? >> i think what people have been saying -- he was a guy who shot from the head and did not care what people thought about him, much to his detriment, often. again, people talk about him as an honorable man, and i think he was an honorable man. by the same token, i think ideologically, he could be very naive. i mentioned the civil-rights terrorism that was going on in mississippi, the fact that people were being shot in cold blood for doing things like helping people register to vote. he never denounced that. he said that his appeal to the people of the south was, "i am not going to tell people in mississippi what they should do as an arizona and." when civil rights are being that aggressively violated, i think there's a question of which side

you are on. i think his heart was in the right place as he believed he was doing the right thing, but i think he had a certain myopia when it came to a real ordeal. >> i want to talk about the libertarian, conservative, a different thing. you have to look at goldwater and that subject in the context of his time. i would not be surprised if during his life and certainly while he was in the senate -- he probably never heard the word libertarian. that probably was not even a word that was even heard of at the time. i call him a small l libertarian because he believed in freedom of choice.

he was in favor of gay rights, women's right to choose, all sorts of things like that, and some of my friends like back would say he got senile and became a big liberal in the end. he did not change. his philosophy was always, "it is up to you as an individual to have the right to decide." whether it was about gay-rights or abortion rights or labor unions where he was totally misunderstood. today, we have, you know, all sorts of politicians and presidential hopefuls running around talking about libertarian this or libertarian that. you have to keep it in the context of the time. >> to give you a sense of the personality and style of barry goldwater -- >> he talked so bad. we were sitting there trying to

listen to him, and it reminds me of trying to read the "playboy" magazine with my wife turning the pages. >> i happen to think you saw in a pretty tough race. suspending the money that i legally can. >> i never said that airplane would not fly. >> people all over the country keep talking about legalizing gambling, and i thought we already had it. it is called the election day. [laughter] i now realize what it takes to

become the president. apparently it helps to have a brother who sits at a gas station drinking beer all day. [laughter] when i was campaigning in the razor-then the election in 1964, i should have told everyone that dean was my brother. >> as you look back and wonder -- >> he also actually in 1964 elections pioneered the movement that would later become social conservative. he gave a short speech about the moral decay of the nation at the mormon tabernacle.

in 1981, they said all good christians should be very concerned about sandra day o'connor. i may, he said all good christians should take jerry falwell in the ass. [laughter] -- kick jerry falwell in the ass. [laughter] >> thank you. i was just curious to know maybe what your panel thinks. goldwater got elected in 1964, how he has handled vietnam differently than lyndon johnson did. would he have escalated the war as lbj did, or would he have seen it more as a civil war between the north and south vietnamese? >> thanks for the question. >> well whether he would have been successful or not, i do not know, but i was of that generation.

vietnam war under lyndon johnson was gradualism. we are going to tighten the screw, and eventually, they are going to give up. yeah, right. i am not saying it would have been a good or bad move. i am not sure. but i think he would have come in with what later became the colin powell doctrine. i am a documentary, he even says, "if you are going to go to war, you have to go with the attitude that you want to win in the next hour. that is his attitude. then he said we lost the war in vietnam for one reason -- the politicians tried to run the war. and his quotation about politicians do not know their gas from a hot rock in running a war -- do not know there ass -- do not know their ass from a hot rock in running a war.

>> let me take this board and ask one step further -- what kind of president would he have been? >> barre would have been something we do not see often today -- i think he would have been a very honest president. i think he would have been very candid as he was his whole life. that was the way he campaigned. it was the way he sat in office. it is how he was -- i think that candor is something that people loved about barry goldwater. it is one of the reasons that so many people sought out barry goldwater, even after he was in office. he was so well respected and liked by so many people because, you know, you knew with barry goldwater where you stood. he always put his principles first.

he had eight any year sometimes to messaging and what people might think, and he put his principles before partisanship, before party, before politics. it is hard to say whether he would have been able to work with congress that way, but it is an exercise that i, for one, would have liked to have seen. >> we are in a weekend of "the contenders" series. we're coming to you from phoenix, arizona. we have an audience here as well. we will get another question right up front. >> thank you. i recall very was interviewed in the 1980's when russia had just gone into afghanistan. i think this underscores the wisdom and how pressing it was in the issues. he said he had been in those hills, and a right minded vote would not wander into those hills. he had forecasted that russia would lose. obviously, we are quite bogged down in afghanistan, so my question to the panel is maybe

from other examples of his wisdom in his life as far as being ahead of his time. >> you are shaking your head. >> that is a great question and goes back to what kind of president he would have been. one of the things we know he would have done differently is he would not have vastly expanded the welfare state in america. he was fighting against that. he said there are all kinds of federal programs that were unconstitutional credited to be repealed. he was unabashed about that. he certainly did not agree with the levels of taxation that we had then, let alone the levels of taxation that we have now. he was very against the type of progressive taxation that was put into place and has become more and more predominant. he felt more like taxation should be minimal and should be fair per person. so if you give 10 percent, i give 10%. not rick is the wealthy so he will pay 90% and you will not

pay anything. those are some major differences. also, since that time, and certainly lyndon johnson work on this as well, but this expansion of government into all sorts of areas including education for which there is no constitutional authority. all of those are things that barry goldwater would have fought hard against. >> let's go back to where your book begins and talk about his influence in arizona as he tried to build the republican party in the late 1940's. >> it is a fascinating story. it was a democratic state. when he ran for the senate, i believe, in 1952, i think there were 92 members of the lower house. there might have been 96. two were democratic. he came from a republican family. his mother was in the westerner. more and more republicans came after world war ii for the climate and the new defense industries that were opening up

in arizona. >> before he entered politics, he did what? >> was an executive at his family's department store. we talked about and being a straight-shooting at. he was actually the marketing guy for the department store, but a guy moved to phoenix, and he was a newspaper publisher. he was actually dan quayle's father-in-law, and wanted to help build the republican party and billed and non partisan city government to clean up what was quite a corrupt town. barry goldwater was involved in both. in 1950, he was the campaign manager for a guy named howard pyle and ran for governor. he flew him around in his plane. he would defend a bronze god, and people would ask which one was the candidate. when he ran for senate, he decided that he would run for senate by building a republican

party. he recruited people for every office of the state. someone asked what he was qualified to run for senate in arizona, and he was such a first citizen of arizona, this was his answer. said he could call 10,000 people in this state by their first names. he built the republican party in arizona. >> i am going to call on you for just a moment because you remember going to the cold water department store. >> when i first came to arizona in 1970, i worked for the hotel in downtown, and i bought a bathing suits at the goldwater department store on central avenue. at the time, you talk about him being in marketing. they gave you with every purchase a little vial of water that has gold flakes in it, and everybody that had flown in from texas to buy the hotel -- when i went back to that hotel, they all went down and bought a bathing suit said they could get a vial of water with gold flakes

in it. so he was good at marketing. >> i just want to comment about the 1952 election. barry rand against dennis mcfarland, who was the majority leader of united states senate at the time. barry had supported mcfarland in earlier elections, raised money for him and all that. barry did not like oil was upset with harry truman, which is ironic today because what former president was very most like -- harry truman, actually. harry. hell, barry told me many times he knew he did not have a chance of winning, but even in the senate, he did not have -- he did not think he had a chance of winning the 1952 senate race at all. maybe he was building a republican party. he had been on the city council for two years, and then he sort

of decided to run against harry truman in most senses in 1952, but he did not. he was not some political organizer who said, "let's build a republican party here." it was sort of natural, but it was not like he had some big planned to do that. he was just running, thinking he did not have a chance of winning. we came across some early film of senator like barry goldwater in 1952 after he was elected to the senate but before coming to washington, d.c. let's look. >> speaking of washington, that place where you are going, there's a great deal of talk on the part of the republicans during the campaign about communism in washington and the mess in washington. do you anticipate finding anything like that when you take your seat in the senate? >> well, i do not know. i cannot say. i think there must be communism in washington, but i would hate to stand up and say there is

without knowing more about it than i do. >> is there any fear or concern about communism and about this whole mess in washington among the people voted for you out in arizona? >> i think the fear of communism is one of the underlying reasons for the -- -- the success of the republican party in this election all over the country. >> now that the republican party is in, do you think there will be any letting down of this concern, and complacency on the part of the people who voted for you? >> i think it has already happened. i am amazed to walk around new york to find in my own communities -- general howard has been elected, the new deal has been thrown out, we can go back to our work the same as usual. as always happens in politics, the man who benefits the most from good government goes on with the least interest in it, and that is mr. average citizen. >> are you going to do anything to point out the need for continuing concern in

washington? >> i will never be quiet about it. >> from 1952, never be quiet. that became his mantra as senator and a candidate in 1954. >> he had a very slick operator for a campaign manager, and he was not necessarily the most savory guy. he once wrote a book called "how to win an election," in which he said he adopted the techniques hung to take over villages. a set out postcards all hand signed by volunteers from barry. he would do things like -- he said that if the situation is propitious, you can get millions of people to vote for someone who has the absolute opposite ideology that they do. he was a very tough campaign manager. >> we have a question in the audience. please introduce yourself and go

ahead. >> good evening. i was 16 months old when we moved to arizona, so i claim to be a native. it is a pleasure to hear the information about senator goldwater from so many experts. the reason why i am here is because in the second grade, i met a gentleman named bill mccann, and we have been friends since then. in 1964, i was a lowly, specialist for a class in the army. i was not old enough to vote at that time because arizona was 21 and i was only 20. when i listened to the senator discussed using low yield nuclear weapons in vietnam, it made sense to me as a military person, and it made sense to a lot of my fellow soldiers at the same time. the point that the johnson

campaign exaggerated, the impact of using these huge hiroshima and nagasaki bombs was a total exaggeration. he was an air force man. he knew what low yield meant and what it would do. my question is -- what was wrong with the term "low yield" that i believe i only heard it once or twice? >> rick, you wrote about that in the book. >> i talked to someone at the laboratory who designed some of those and we'll nuclear-weapons, and he said it was absolutely insane to believe you could contain the explosions from those weapons. i am not sure sure that is true. >> i want to comment. i grew up in the same neighborhood north of thomas

road. in about 1952, 1953, 1954, my father would wake me and my brothers up at 4:00 in the morning on a couple of occasions. we would go up onto the roof of our house and sit facing north. my dad had his watch, and he would tell us one minute and 30 seconds, and we would see nuclear atomic bombs explode at the test sites aboveground, nuclear bombs exploding at the test sites in nevada, which was -- what? 300 miles away. four or five times, i am one of the few people alive today who has ever seen a nuclear bomb explode. hopefully nobody else ever will again. this was sort of a ritual. we would get up and watch the nuclear bombs going off in about.

the point is, i thought, first of all, why are we dropping nuclear bombs on the bottom? i thought they were on our side. [laughter] but realizing as was 250 or 300 miles away to this test sites, it was like summer flashlight and if you know what that means, except that it would stay -- the flash in the light would stay in the air longer than some lightning. that is 300 miles away. think about that. that kind of thing is what contributes to the great fear of the soviet union and nuclear war. >> let me put a domestic issue on the table -- organized labor and the legislative record that senator goldwater had in 1956. >> extremely important in barry goldwater's rise. arizona became the first right to work state. the circle that he was in, his friends, people like dennis mcchrystal, his closest friend

and adviser, he was a labor lawyer for the big mining company, and he argued before the supreme court. the idea that fighting labor power was essential to conservative politics was absolutely part of what barry goldwater was all about. he became -- he basically vote nafta -- road to national prominence in the late 1950's on two wings. first was he gave a speech attacking dwight eisenhower or a big budget, which he called squander by spending and the silent song of socialism. the other thing was there was another hearing in the late 1950's meant to take on jimmy hoffa pose a corruption, and goldwater would keep interrupting. he would say, "i would rather have jimmy hoffa stealing my money than walter with stealing my freedom."

walter reuther was the head of the united autoworkers who have basically pioneered things like the automatic cost-of-living increase. he was fighting to make the operations of corporations much more transparent. he was the most politically aggressive labor leader in history and one of the most successful. by taking on someone like walter luther, businessmen all over the country fought to barry goldwater's banner as their savior. these were the guys, these businessmen, were the people ended up organizing the group that began under barry goldwater was in those without them being involved at all first put them forward as presidential candidates. am i completely disagree with what he just said. my experience with barry in interviewing him was he was not -- i am convinced he was not against unions.

he said many times in our shows imagine being able to join a union or not join a union -- it is their personal choice. he is most of those efforts about corruption in the unions, and he really did not like the -- what do you call it? the closed shop where you had to join the union in order to have a job. >> i will build on what you're saying. i think that is absolutely correct. then a two to one, rick. >> he believe that unions were an expression of human freedom if you join them voluntarily. believe wholeheartedly in freedom of association. you thought that was great if you wanted to join. what he did not believe in is what union has become, which is compulsory, forced membership. that was something he vehemently oppose. so you have a situation today

where they are trying to take away the right to vote by secret ballot when you are forming a union. that was something that he opposed. there was the issue of -- what was his other big issue? right to work where they were making membership compulsory, and it was a condition of employment. that is absolutely at the battle to everything we believe in as americans, he said, so he fought for right to work was in the state, but he did not oppose a lot of the seceding on unions. he opposed the idea of what unions have become, which is forcing people to do things against their will, completely contrary to everything that barry goldwater believe. >> going to jump in. we have a caller waiting. >> i wonder if barry goldwater were alive today with his life span of points of view, could he get the nomination of the republican party? that is the first part of my

question. second, based on the extreme right wing state of some leaders in arizona politics as in the election last tuesday where jerry lewis defeated a leader in the senate, how would barry goldwater have stood in the ideas of the current republican party in a state of arizona? thank you very much. >> two points. could barry goldwater get the nomination today? >> no because he would have been vetoed by the christian right. so looking over some of these quotes, and they are stunning. here is what he said in 1981 -- "and look at the carnage in iran, the bloodshed in lebanon or the bombs bursting of a letdown and question injecting religious issues into the affairs of state?" he believe very firmly by the end of his political career that people who enter politics from a religious motivation are so impassioned and so impervious to compromise back it made the

give-and-take necessary for politics impossible, which is ironic because before, extremism in defense of policy is no vice, but he really did seem to come to an extremely firm an extremely impassion notion. he did not even what pat robertson to run for president in 1988. he thought that was a violation of the separation of church and state. >> his said his been much concern that some of the people to do with conservative instincts feel compelled to apologize for them. he goes on to say he allows vice-president nixon -- singled out vice-president nixon at the time when president dwight eisenhower. >> to this day, it remains the best statement of what it means to be a conservative in this country. he is so clear, and i think earlier on -- you used the word

simple. for me, i was thinking principle. that is all it was. not subaltern or simplicity, but it was clean, and it was clear and those principles are beautifully outlined in that book. it is just as good a baby today as it was back in the day. >> as an author and writer, and have to give credit to the guy who actually wrote the book. barry goldwater might have read it. but he definitely was not involved in the production of the book, which is a fascinating story that i tell in my book. >> let's go to the 1960 convention because that is an important point. i will come back. as he spoke to the delegates at the republican convention, which nominated vice president richard nixon. >> as an american who loves this republic and as a member of the senate, i am committed to the republican philosophy and to the republican candidates. it is my belief the people of

this land will return a republican administration to office in 1960, and i shall work to that end. [applause] but i might suggest in all seriousness that you and i will not have discharged our full responsibilities unless we also return a republican congress. i would not imply that our party is the repository of all virtue, that only republicans can see the truth, that only republicans serve noble motives, but i must insist that those in control of the democrat party through their platforms have announced their total commitment to what i regard as a lopsided concept which puts americans in a shameful condition of everlasting dependence upon the state. [applause]

i have visited the people in the city's and towns and states of our nation, and i can tell you that the men and women of america face the future with courage. they are eager to accept their responsibilities. they are determined to work and sacrifice to defend our freedom. it is our task as delegates to this 1960 republican convention to make certain the american voter is provided with an opportunity to make a meaningful choice between the two philosophies competing today for acceptance in our world. the philosophy of the stomach or the philosophy of a whole man. [applause] >> delegator is watch barry

goldwater in 1960. how did that set the stage for 1964? >> it said red meat to the conservative movement, basically. he ended his speech saying, "conservatives, grow up. let's get to work." that is the last line of his whole speech there. he was not -- who is that republican guy who ran campaigns the last few years or so? rove, yes. he was not karl rove in his organizing at all, but he had feelings of let's get to work. let's take this back. let's do something for a conservative movement, as it were. because he had no use for nixon, especially later and probably no use for rockefeller other than they were friendly. he ideologically had no use for

rockefeller, but he would say, cassette and let's get to work. let's do this." >> i wrote my senior thesis on the press treatment of the goldwater presidential campaign and i had the good fortune to spend a full day interviewing officer theodore white at his home in manhattan. he had the memories of the weeks he had spent on the campaign trail with goldwater in preparation for the 1964 installment in his famous series, "the making of the president." he had come away from the tour with great admiration for goldwater and with contempt of the liberal media that he was part of and that he thought was doing so much to demonize goldwater and distort or ignore the case that goldwater was trying to present to the people. he told me goldwater had tried earnestly to lecture the people about the dangers of concentrating more power in washington and what the proper amounts of federal involvement in race relations should be, especially in the so-called

public accommodations, the specific issue that led to his opposition of the civil rights bill that year. white also said that when goldwater eventually came to fear that discussing civil rights issues further on the campaign trail might worsen racial tensions, he met with president johnson, and they agreed to take those issues out of their campaigns. white said the agreement really cost goldwater a lot of votes among working-class whites and was one of the most selfless acts white had ever seen a politician engaged in. one last thing he told me -- have dismayed he had been when he got back to new york's after this. he said his liberal media friends had deceived him as though he were a jew just escaped from a nazi death camp. he said he astonished those friends by insisting on what a good man and what a worthy candidate goldwater was. thought you would want to know. >> thank you for the call, sharing your story. >> it is really interesting on

the civil rights issue. i think he did get a bum rap from the media and continues to do so today. when you hear people talk about his civil-rights record, they talk about how he did not vote for the 1964 act. he did not speak out enough. really, he must not have had that in his heart. that could not have been further from the truth about who barry was. in the goldwater department store, they had integrated that store long before anyone else had done that. he really did have a colorblind heart. anybody you meet will tell you that. anybody who met barry will tell you that. one of the greatest stories that i love that relates to this -- and we do not know if it is true or not. i was talking to his son, and he said he did not know it was apocryphal or true, but the way it goes is that he went to a very fancy golf course in bel- air and wanted to play a round of golf, and they said, "barry

goldwater, you cannot play here because you are jewish." and he responded by saying, "you know, i am only half jewish. do you think i could play nine holes?" [laughter] >> let me say something about civil rights really quick. barry goldwater and harry rosenzweig as city council members integrated the airport in phoenix, which had been segregated before. after world war ii, the department of defense ask barry goldwater to organize the arizona international guard, which had not existed before. he said he would do it on one condition -- that it is racially integrated. they gave in and said, "find." in the senate, he voted for civil rights legislation consistently through the 50's and into the early 60 -- refit 1950's and into the early 1960's. only when he voted against was the final one, and that was

because of a thing in there called the mrs. murphy law, which would have said that if mrs. murphy wants to read her spare bedroom out, that she could not discriminate. he has a long history of pro- civil rights activities. >> let me ask you about the relationship between barry goldwater and john kennedy. they came to the senate together in a bit too. >> yes, in fact, when barry goldwater was rising, he was very much compared to kennedy. handsome, charismatic guy. very famous story that they talked about campaigning together, writing the same campaign plane, and debating each other lincoln and douglas style. this was often taken as a testament of the more civil times. i suspect that john f. kennedy was thinking cynically and thought if he could get the guy on a platform and force him to mouth is what were very than

unpopular views, he quite the floor with them. i am not so sure it was this magnanimous act on kennedy put the car. >> history changed in dallas following the assassination of president kennedy. senator barry goldwater said this. >> he was a very decent fellow. he was a gentleman. he is the kind of antagonist that i have always enjoyed. he would fight like a wildcat for his principles, but there was never anything personal about it. i imagine that i debated as a president more on the floor of the senate more than any other man, and it never affected our friendship. we had some rather violent arguments in sessions of committee, and it never affected our friendship. that is the kind of a man that you respect, the kind of a man you would like to work with in politics.

>> after the assassination and before he entered the race in 1964, how ambivalent was he about running? >> he was ambivalent but leaning towards running. one of the reasons he was so ambivalent after the assassination was because he knew that the public would be so long enforceability and that the idea of having three presidents within the space of one year would just be too much for people to bear. >> a question here. >> ray miller from phoenix. i had the good fortune of being involved in the formation of the goldwater institute. as a result of that, i want to make a comment and a question. one of senator goldwater's unique features was he never sought publicity, which made him unusual for a politician. when we were trying to form the organization, he was still reluctant. even after we got going, we

wanted to have an award in his name, and he was reluctant again to step forward and have the award named after him. he was unusual in so many ways. a question is -- is there anybody to compare him with? we think of ronald reagan. maybe somebody like bob taft. is there anybody else you can compare barry goldwater to? >> would like to take that one? >> not alive today. >> i would say there are two people. ron paul and ronald reagan. i think he compares to ron paul in that ron paul is a very straightforward speaker who does not really care what the press thinks, but he just speaks from his heart about his ideas. it is his downfall. it was part of barry's downfall. also reagan like in that the court of his ideas that barry ran on reagan later implemented,

but he just had -- reagan had a smoother style. he was mr. hollywood. not only did he not have a tin ear, but he had that wonderful smile and made people laugh. he ran basically on the same ideas that goldwater did and brought over -- one in a landslide. sometimes when rick says that people did not like barry's ideas or were not ready for them, i do not really think that is a very fair assessment. i think that the assassination played a key role in that time. i think before messaging that he did was a factor, but i do not think it was the ideas. i think it was the timing and the way the ideas were sold. that i think the liberal congresswoman from illinois speaks with equal forthrightness and is just as principled as barry goldwater. >> route is joining us from marietta, california. welcome to the program. >> thanks for this program.

it is great. i am a liberal who has only voted for one republican in my life, and that was barry goldwater. i guess my attitude at the time -- kennedy was such a young, new generation particulate, and johnson seemed to be so much the old politics. two things i wanted to mention that i have not heard year -- a choice, not an echo, was what i thought was one of his big themes. the other point i wanted to make was there was a book called -- that came out at about the same time, and this was basically john birch society. barry never separated himself from that group. the last point i wanted to make was the night before the election, reagan came on to andt goldwater's candidacy,

a lot of the comment afterward was, "maybe we got the wrong man." >> thanks. we will talk about ronald reagan in about 20 minutes and show you just a portion of what he spoke toward the end of his 1964 campaign, but your thoughts. >> this was scattered stop here the book argued every setback america ever had was because there were secret communists infiltrating every part of the government. 20 million copies of this book were circulated. rich businessmen would by thousands and thousands of copies and hand them out everywhere. he is right -- barry goldwater did not announce this stuff. he would rationalize it by saying people know that there is something wrong out there and this is pushing in the right direction and maybe he disagreed with it, but he never denounced the john birch society. he said some of his best friends

in phoenix were part of it. i think that was one of his achilles' heels. i think he humored extremists. >> you used the quotation earlier of extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. that came from the 1964 republican convention. we want to show you that i put it in some sort of context of what he said before and after work. here is barry goldwater excepting the republican nomination. >> anyone who joins us and all conservatives we welcome. [applause] those who do not care for our cause we do not expect to enter our ranks.

and our republicanism is so focus and so dedicated that it is not made fuzzy by unthinking and submit labels. [applause] i would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. [applause] thank you.

thank you. thank you. [applause] let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. [applause] by the beauty of the very system, we republicans restore and reebok -- our task to restore and revitalize the beauty of this federal system of ours in reconciliation with unity. we must not live on honest differences of opinion so long as they are consistent with the treasures we have given to each

other in and through our constitution. [applause] our republican cause -- >> how did that speech resonate among the republican electorate and the voters at large? >> richard nixon wrote in his memoirs aptly at that very moment when he heard him say extremism in defense of liberty is no vice -- he literally felt sick to his stomach. the reason for that was they had an incredibly divisive dimension, and barry goldwater won the most votes by far because they organize it so well, the grass roots insurgency, but many people in the party felt like they had stolen the party. the the republican party was a moderate party, and a conservative had won by hook and by crook. what you were supposed to do, your role in the acceptance speech was to bind the wounds together of a divisive campaign

so people could unite and go forward. instead, he seemed to be pushing in people's faces his acceptance of this notion of extremism, which in the context of the time meant things like the john birch society, like the segregationists who were changing their democratic affiliation or republican affiliation. the public itself also in the context of this kennedy assassination in which the idea that the bottom had dropped out of america's civility and people longing so much for normalcy -- it really just seemed like something once again that was frightening, that was strange, that was perverse. his numbers went way down. a week after that, there was a terrible riot in harlem, it increased people's sense that somehow barry goldwater was associated with these very frightening forces in american life. when people were riding in

harlem, people were saying things like, "they are shooting black people. as cold water stuff is happening." unfairly, surely that surrounded barry goldwater in this atmosphere in which people felt that the springs were being used sensibilities. >> good evening. welcome to the program. >> i thank you for taking my call. in 1986, congress passed a scholarship named after barry goldwater, and i do not know if the irony ever escape them, based on what i heard from the panel about goldwater's ideology. if you did not know too much about this scholarship, there

was a glut of filibustering, but that is not the case, i think it is just commented on his views in education. >> thank you. >> i have not heard that theory that is something i would like to learn more about. it would be ironic if true and if it is true, it is ironic. he looked at the constitution and did not see any role in a given to the federal government to be involved in education, and he spoke out against federal involvement in education. he said he did not want the federal government to educate his children. he did not want the state government to educate the children. he wants to educate his children. i think if we can bring this up to modern times, what is so interesting, and i think is a great tribute to barry goldwater, is that arizona is one of the leading states in offering choices to parents, school choice so that people are not forced to go into government schools but can use some of their tax money and take that to

private schools or use online to ring and things like that. i think barry would have loved that and been crazy about that. this was something that he believed -- look, at bottom, he believes in freedom. nothing is more fundamental than being able to direct how your children are educated. certainly, -- do you know if the scholarship part is true? have you heard that? >> i have heard something about science and technology in his name. i cannot remember what it was, whether it was a scholarship thing. that you cannot talk about barry goldwater and the 1964 campaign without bringing up the advertisement mentioned before peewit it aired once on september 7, 1964, labor day monday. it aired on nbc, cbs and abc use it as subsequent stories. it is infamously known as the d.c. add. -- the daisy ad.

>> 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 7. 6. 6. 8. 9. 9. >> 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. [explosion] >> these are the stakes. to make a world in which all god's children can live or to go into the dark. we must either love each other or we must die. >> vote for president johnson on november 3. the stakes are too high for you to stay home.

>> 50 years later, they are still talking about this. why? >> well, it was devastating at the time, but he never mentioned barry goldwater's name. >> he did not need to. >> keep in mind that the whole campaign up to that point focused -- the johnson democratic campaign -- focused on the word extremism. over and over again. this was just another little piece of "goldwater is an extremist. he is going to get us into nuclear wars." that advertisement was written and designed by -- what is his name? >> tony schwartz. >> no. >> bill moyers. >> that is not true. that is absurd. >> let me finish. let me finish. barry goldwater in my show is on camera. he said, "i tried years later

after words to talk to bill moyers about it." barry thought it was a pretty rotten deal. he said bill moyers never return his phone call. susan, his second wife, told me later -- she said bill moyers was in town for something not related to politics, and she had occasion to talk to him, and bill moyers said to susan -- this is susan saying this -- she said bill moyers said, "it is a shame. i tried to get a hold of barry to talk to him about that a lot of times, but we could never meet up the cases and was implying that was baloney. >> i can state categorically that bill moyers had nothing to do with creating that ad. >> but he was white house press secretary at the time, we should

point out. >> he wrote memos about the ad, and he was involved in the media strategy, but the idea he created the ad, that is groundless. >> from minnesota and arizona depending on the season. the subtitle of your book is "the unmaking of a consensus." i am interested in what makes something a consensus, what was it that was unmade? >> in a sense, the word consensus would have to appear in quotation marks. there was a myth that after world war ii, certainly since the eisenhower administration accepting the new deal as a basic template, eisenhower saying anyone who fiddled with social security would never live another political day.

i might even read a classic statement of how the american consensus was thought up at the time. the dean of rutgers wrote in the magazine partisan review, "in america, there are no basic disagreements between intellectuals, bankers, trade unionists, artists, big businessmen, the knicks, professional people, politicians to name a few or between the economic crisis." there are no real critics, no new ideas, no fundamental differences of opinion. the idea that the western world, not just america, had converged on the idea of the welfare state -- that is a way to organize the world -- was just seen as permanent. what is so fascinating to me is almost immediately, the 1960's gives rise to that notion. americans are at each other's throats. we are debating the role of the state. that was the american consensus.

in 1964 is where we begin to see these fissures come apart, and barry goldwater is an absolutely essential figure in that. >> it is a huge topic, but the issue of civil rights in 1964 -- barry goldwater voted against it and it became one of the issues of the campaign. >> a couple fascinating points about that -- we talk about the lyndon johnson television commercials. they had a bunch of commercials in the can boasting about that civil rights bill and it's carrying barry goldwater for running against it. they did not run those because the idea of a backlash against civil rights was already present. in california -- in the book, published a headline in the "new york times" -- what backlash does not develop? people felt that they might vote for barry goldwater because they were so terrified of blacks having civil rights. in california, on the same day that lyndon johnson won by 1 million votes, there was also a

book for a referendum, and that was on open housing. by 1 million votes, californians voted to reject the idea of open housing, to reject a law that said you cannot discriminate on the basis of race to whom you rent your home. the idea of a backlash against civil-rights was late and at the time and became the most explosive issue in american >> if you look at what happened. in 1952 when dwight eisenhower won, but you look at the south and the impact that the civil rights vote had, the democrats in 1964, what is the difference? >> no one -- the republican party said that was the party of the carpetbaggers. that was the party that you voted for the republicans and they got a toehold, they would monopolize the black vote, and there were all these panics.

we have all seen "gone with the wind", right? five southern states voted for goldwater. 87% of mississippi voted for goldwater. when lyndon johnson signed the civil rights bill, he said he was siding with the south to the democratic party for a generation. that was one of the most profound changes in electoral alignment. -- he said he was signing away the south for the democratic party. the south was a primarily republican region, and that is because conservatives, led by barry goldwater, decided to retreat from the idea of the federal government advancing civil rights for african- americans. >> two years after ge basically ended the program, the g.e. theater that ronald reagan was hosted two years before he became governor of california, he was involved in the campaign. we have a portion of the speech he delivered late in the

campaign as ronald reagan talked about the virtues of barry goldwater. am i think it is time that we asked ourselves if we still know the freedoms that were intended for us by the founding fathers. long ago, two friends of mine were talking to a cuban refugee, a businessman who had escaped from castro. in the midst of this story, one of my friends turned to the other and said, cassette and we do not know how lucky we are." the cuban stock and said, "how lucky you are. i had some place to escape to." in the sentence, he told us the entire story. if we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. this is the last stand on earth. the idea that government is beholden to the people that has no other source of power except the sovereign people is still the newest and most unique idea in all the long history of man's relation to man. you and i have a rendezvous with destiny. we will preserve for

relationship to man. you and i have a rendezvous with destiny. we will preserve this last stop for man on earth or we will force them to take a step of 1000 years of darkness. we will remember that barry goldwater has faith in us. he has faith that you and i have the ability and the dignity and the right to make our own decisions and determine our own destiny. thank you very much. [applause] >> from october to date -- october 22, 1964, what is the history behind that speech? >> why did he deliver it? >> i don't know who drafted the speech. he probably does. that is okay. barry goldwater himself was a great speaker.

i mean dramatic. he was wonderful. he did not like prepared written speeches. somebody wrote to that speech for barry goldwater and submit it to him. my source on this is bob goldwater and some other historians. he read it and said this is a great speech, but i am not good at giving written speeches. ronald reagan can do this speech at lot better. they sent it over to him to deliver it on tv or wherever it was. ronald reagan did it. that was the beginning of a reagan ending up as president was that speech which was written for barry goldwater. >> it also led another -- a number of california executives to coach according to governor in 1966. >> he had given similar speeches the early '60s. the people who had been in charge of basically handling the money for. goldwater's television account were so fed up with the

terrible commercials, that basically said if you let us spend it the whole way, will spend it the way we want to. we are going to basically sequester this money. they played hard ball. that is how they got ronald reagan on the air. after he gave that speech, telegrams poured into the campaign. money poured into the campaign. people started talking about ronald reagan as a gubernatorial possibility. david said it was the best political debut he had ever heard of since the speech by william jennings bryant. >> the relationship, was it a close relationship or was it more of an acquaintance? >> ronald reagan, his father was a wealthy physician that knew the goldwaters. there is a whole fascinating

thing ever to my book that these people who ran his campaign did not want ronald reagan to give it this speech. it is a little different. he had set thinks about social security that barry goldwater had gotten in trouble for earlier in the year. basically what ronald reagan said to barry goldwater, why don't you listen to it. if you object to it. we do not have to run it. barry goldwater heard it and said this is great, i don't see what the fuss is about. the rest is history. >> good evening. >> good evening, sir. he pretty much answered my question. i was wondering what mr. barry goldwater thought about the way he gave the speech that night. also, mr. barry goldwater and ronald reagan and william buckley, did they ever have

difference of opinion as far as conservatism or were they in accord? with that, i thank you for taking my question. >> thank you. >> william f. buckley was actually shut out of the goldwater campaign late in 1963. it was a power play by a fellow by the name of -- it was power politics. william f. buckley on several different occasions that he did not think that barry goldwater would make a good president. he was not ready to be president and not smart enough to be president. now, ronald reagan to talk relationship with william buckley is complicated. the panama canal, they had a famous debate in which william f. buckley argued that it was a good thing. ronald reagan had basically run his 1976 campaign on the idea

that it was a bad thing. these are the personality clashes that any of these guys are going to have. >> can i recommend that a great hot book for this questionnaire -- william f. buckley's last book that he published is called "flying high." it is one of the best books ever written about goldwater. i recommend it. >> i have two questions for the panel to address. i wonder if by engaging over directly about the issue over vietnam, barry goldwater could have forced lyndon johnson to come up with an exit strategy and hasten the war's conclusion. >> let's get that and we will follow up on your second on. >> i am not sure that -- there were forces trying to persuade lyndon johnson to do a lot of things about vietnam's. none of them prevailed. i am not sure he could have had

much influence on lyndon johnson. i do not know. i did not say expert on that. we have some vietnam veterans in the crowd. maybe they know. >> my second point is we have heard a lot tonight about his consistency. in 1996, he endorsed bill clinton for president. i would love it if the panel could be behind the motivations of that endorsement. >> he was a guy that could bear grudges. bob dole had been around a lot in republican politics. i would not be surprised if bob dole had angered him somewhere along the way. i do not know the back story behind it. i would love to know. >> he also endorsed a woman named karen english for a congressional seat in arizona who was a democrat. she won and served one term. >> along those lines, when asked about his consistency, one of my favorite stories is about that.

he endorsed someone who was a fiscal conservative but was a democrat over a republican who he thought was a big spender. the republican party chairman in arizona called him up and said, you are speaking out too much. you need to get in line. if you don't stop endorsing this democrat, we are or to take your name off of the republican party headquarters. barry goldwater said to him, if the republicans don't remember the principles that we stand for, i will make you take my name off of the republican party headquarters. >> over the years, especially since he was in retirement, a number of public figures both republicans and democrats would come out here to meet with barry goldwater. why? >> they admired him. he is one of the time.

a person of integrity. they may not have agreed with them, but he was one of the time. you have to keep in mind when barry goldwater died, bill clinton had the flags of the united states lowered to half staff on the day of his funeral. that had never happened before and will probably never happen again. >> one quick point about hillary clinton being a goldwater girl in 1964. >> he had a very fascinating rehabilitation in the 1970's. there was an article in the new york times magazine in april of 1974. in 1964 he was bela lugosi. the liberals love barry goldwater now. what it was about is how it reviewed a lot of the unfairness that we have been talking about. the reconsideration centered it around the fact he was being so

forthright in excoriating richard nixon for his lies. >> welcome to the program. >> thank you so much. i was raised in phoenix and my family worshipped goldwater. we were active in his campaign. my brother became a libertarian and said it would never need to be a libertarian party if barry goldwater had just become president. i was then later a 1992 delegate to the republican convention. it was going to be a big fight that year, a platform fight over putting abortion in the platform. one week before the convention, barry goldwater made a statement to the press about there was no "blankety blank" way that should be in the platform. but i got to the convention, there were all of these tables. here was a big blue button that said "barry's right."

i bought that and were it the entire week. to this day it is my most prized possession. barry is still right. >> thank you for the call. >> you know, i think that is a difficult issue. i think a lot of people like to use that to call -- i am not saying your caller did this. to position barry goldwater as a libertarian. i think they know that 2% of the public consider themselves libertarians and try to marginalize him that way. the truth is that a lot of conservatives believe that the federal government should not have any role in the question of whether or not abortion is a crime. william f. buckley is a pretty strong conservative. i do not think anybody would quibble with that. he also believed that was not the role of the federal

government. marketing comes into play here. the way people took what barry goldwater said is not the way people took what will lead f. buckley said. it were saying the same thing. >> you cannot talk about barry goldwater -- we should point out he left the senate in 1964 because his term expired. he came back and had a very important role as he met with richard nixon two days before his resignation. what is the story? >> he was the guy who led a delegation of republicans. it is very simple. impeachment of a political process, he said that you do not have the votes in the senate to win in a trial. therefore, you do not want to be the first president to be thrown out on your ear by the senate. you ought to resign. richard nixon took his advice. richard nixon resigned on august 9, 1974.

>> the relationship between the two? >> testy. barry goldwater consistently throughout watergate would prod richard nixon to tell the truth. he said this is beginning to smell. there was a very famous showdown between barry goldwater and richard nixon at the 1960 republican convention. one of the most important set pieces and conservative history. nelson rockefeller basically threatened a floor fight unless he could dictate the terms of the republican platform. he forced richard nixon to fly to new york to negotiate the terms of the platform. it was announced in chicago where the convention was. barry goldwater was so mad he

give this angry speech calling it munich of the republican party. that was when people started demonstrating for barry goldwater at that convention to usurp the nomination from richard nixon. ever since that point i don't think he ever really trusted richard nixon. >> tipping ahead to watergate is what brought on the resignation. barry goldwater told me and bob goldwater reiterates this. the reason that barry goldwater was so angry at richard nixon leading up to the resignation is because, "richard was a g-d liar." there is a thing in the documentary, from childhood he said that if we did something wrong and we told the truth, we did not get punished.

if we lied, we got punished. there is a very strong thing about lying. he was so angry at richard nixon for lying through watergate. >> in 1968 i was covering the republican convention in miami. i was able to meet barry goldwater who was there. he was extremely nice. he struck me as totally different from his national image. i also discovered ronald reagan in the back of the news section of an auditorium being interviewed in a booth by nbc. i was the on the what to see him there. ronald reagan was making noises about running for president at that convention. i stood outside while he was

finishing the interview. i think it was with david brinkley. he came out and by that time a whole lot of other reporters had gathered out there. mr. ronald reagan came out. i asked him a couple of questions. other reporters circled him. there were 20 or 30 of them. i was throwing questions over the top of that. he was very nicely yelling his answers back to my microphone. we went around a corner. the whole gang of people swept into this table at the end of it knocking over a little man with his typewriter on the floor. i let them go. i stop and help to this little man. i looked into his face and it

was theodore s. white. that stopped me right there. he was just so -- he apologized to me for that. i got to meet three really nice people there. barry goldwater, ronald reagan, and theodore s. white. >> thank you for the phone call from new orleans. conventions were quite different in 1964 and 1968. >> i do think in the making of the president, teddy white was pretty patronizing to barry goldwater. the 1964 convention was angry. i was told that it was so impassioned and have violently angry by the media -- the eastern establishment press, david brinkley told his son who was a teenager at the time that you are under no circumstances

to wear your nbc insignia around san francisco. that is why people were afraid of this idea of the goldwater movement as this crazy fascist thing. it was a dangerous for any time. >> in his final two years in the u.s. senate before retiring, he put forth ronald reagan's nomination to serve a second term and to beat the republican nominee in 1984. >> one month ago i sat in my den and watched the democratic national convention. speaker after speaker promised the known to every narrow sense his group in the country. they ignored the hopes and aspirations of the largest special interest group all -- and free men and free women. [applause]

so tonight, i want to speak about freedom. let me remind you that extremism as a defense of liberty is no vice. [applause] >> essential barry goldwater? >> absolutely. people loved barry goldwater. what he was expressing is akin to "give me liberty or give me death." and in america, we believe this. i think sometimes the loss of the 1964 campaign is mistakenly

interpreted as an outright rejection of those ideas. it was not anything of the sort. you can hear it from the cheering. you can hear it from the reagan revolution. you know, that is what the liberal press at that time wanted people to believe. when he lost the campaign, the new york times' washington bureau chief had said that barry goldwater had not only lost but have lost the entire conservative cause. there were always talking about the death of conservatism. that is wishful thinking. it remains wishful thinking on the part of the press. that is classic barry goldwater. it reflects what many a americans believe which is that you cannot be too passionate, to committee, or two extreme, if you want to use that word, in defense of our constitutional freedoms.

>> jay is joining us from the york city. go ahead please. >> i just recently became into politics with the election of barack obama. i tried to look and see what the backlash was so i looked at barry goldwater and read the book "conscience of a conservative." you look at certain organizations and they praise these conservatives, i look at the record and try to think why do they not vote for conservatives? why is it so monolithic? what is the situation? you look at the state's right speech. can conservatives at least understand that when you keep treating people like ronald reagan and barry goldwater, all we have to do is pick up the book and the record is right there. until you can be honest and say

you are wrong on this. you cannot say freedom and equality when a whole segment of society feels like they are alienated. i would like to take that comment on the air. thank you for taking my call. >> thank you, jay. >> i certainly understand what the caller was saying in his views. i think more what he is referring to whether he realizes it or not is the image of barry goldwater that was put out there has been a crazy guy or a racist or whatever. he really was not. you can say whatevery you want about barry goldwater, he was never a hateful person. he was never a vengeful person in his handling of politics. i wish some of these 12 people running around for president presently would adopt the niceness of barry goldwater.

>> it is important to note also by the end of the 1964 campaign, barry goldwater did make a very important and subtle shift on his position on civil rights. he would always say that he was an integrationist. that was his goal for society. by the end of the campaign as he was trying to win the southern states, he did say, our goal is neither to have an integrated or a segregated society. it is to have a free society. he did seem to move away from the idea of integration as a positive good. >> the reform debate in 1960 and in no debates in 1964. why? >> in order to have a debate, you had to suspend a rule of the federal communications commission so that every candidate -- of 30 candidates

including the beekeepers party -- would not have to be on the states. lyndon johnson wired net income or so it was impossible. he did not want to face barry goldwater. it says something like maybe he thought barry goldwater would have been a worthy adversary. >> this question is for darcy. do you see the tea party movement as a resurgence of barry goldwater movement? >> i definitely think there are -- the tea party -- the best way to answer that is it is not monolithic. there are all kinds of people who constitute the tea party and a lot of ideas in the tea party. if you look at the tea party as a group of people who have fought these gigantic bailouts and washington, they fought the raising of the debt ceiling, they fought the federal takeover of health care.

all of these things he would have been with them on. coming out and some of the major pieces and what the tea party folks are working on. >> franklin is on the phone. we welcome you. >> i would like to make a comment. if we would have elected barry goldwater as president in 1964, we would have won the war in vietnam. he did not believe in public opinion to guide the war. i would also like to say that i think barry goldwater told mr. nixon that he could not hold the south for him or make sure the south would stay for him. they asked him to resign instead of be impeached. thank you. >> franklin, thank you. >> this stuff about how barry

goldwater could have miraculously when the vietnam war. the united states paid over the entirety of a land mass of north and south vietnam with a quarter inch of steel. i think it is a fantasy. a pleasant one, but it is a glib position. >> we just have one minute or two left. did barry goldwater view's change as he got older? >> his basic core philosophy and the way he looked at life and politics. i have had battles and op-ed pages where people are like, he got senile and it turned liberal at the end. he did not. he was always a small l libertarian. freedom of choice whether it was abortion, gay rights, or

any number of things. he was totally consistent his entire life. >> i agree with that. any question about any time period in his life when you look at what his position was and ask a question of whether it was constitutional or not, that will give you the answer to what his position was. people look around to find politicians who were as honest as him and stand for principles. there are few and far between. that is why he gave us his blessing. he knew he could not count on politicians to stand on principle all the time. with regular men and women supporting an organization who believed in those ideas, he would always have a voice for freedom. >> rick perlstein, i will give you the final word. what was the legacy of the 1964 campaign and what impact did he have? >> i think the legacy was organizational.

it was the formation of organization that became a permanent conservative movement that lost the battle in 1964 but lived to fight a dozen of battles more. i think his legacy is to have inspired these people to become something -- become part of something greater than themselves. to inspire people who felt frustrated with the course of the country to take civic action. >> the book is called "before the storm," by rick perlstein. thank you to darcy olsen for hosting us here at the goldwater institute. and bill mccune who is a former arizona state legislature and a producer of a documentary called "barry goldwater: an american life." we want to leave you with some of the words of barry goldwater with an interview we did with him while he was winding down his political career from the

c-span archives in 1985. >> another thing i would tell politicians coming into washington -- your reelection is not going to make or break the united states. do the best job you can do. that is what you are here for. to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. be honest. that is all i would tell them. >> how about the republican party leaders today? >> i think we have good leadership here today. lord knows we spent long enough time out of office that we should have learned some things. politics go in a circle. you will find the liberal element running things for a while. now, we find the conservatives on the way up. the conservatives will run

things until he runs out of ideas. the other party or even the republican party that becomes the liberal party will take over. our politics in amercan go around in circles. i think that is great. ♪go with goldwater. go with goldwater. you know where goldwater stands. go with goldwater. go with goldwater. you know where goldwater stands.♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] quirks our live look at the contenders continues in next friday.

the series airs lives every friday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern. for more information, the to our website. you will find the schedule of the series, biographies of all the candidates, and speeches. that is at c-span.org. /thecontenders. >> want to make sure that we have taken every step possible to bring peace of mind to our family members of our fallen heroes. for that reason, this review commission will look at the policies and procedures there and make sure that we are implementing the highest standards in dealing with the remains of our fallen heroes. in addition to that, i want to make certain that we have taken all appropriate disciplinary action. >> with respect to the most

recent accusations, i have never acted inappropriately with anyone. period. >> with hundreds of hours of new public affairs programming available each week, the c-span 2 libraries online resourced to find what you want when you want. in depth, sir schauble, sheryl ball -- in debt, searchable, shareable. >> the operation allowed guns to be smuggled across the u.s.- mexico border. the justice department never knowingly provided congress with false information about fast and furious, a charge made by house and senate republicans. eric holder testified before the senate judiciary committee.

this portion is 40 minutes.

>> by a understand we will have a lot of attendance this morning so i will probably run the clock is a little bit more

diligently then usual, including for myself. i am glad to have the attorney general holder back with us. so we can continue our important focus on oversight. the attorney general was here in may. we did provide a major justice inclosure resulting from the attacks of september 11. that was not a nice little success. during the last few years, the obama administration has successfully reinvigorated, retooled and refocused our national security efforts. the attorney general in any is administration is a key member of that national security team. under his leadership, the justice department has foiled an

assassination attempt in the united states of the saudi ambassador to the united states and a major act of terrorism on u.s. soil. last week, four men in georgia were arrested in a domestic terrorism plot. there are accused to make plans to use bombs to kill federal and state officials. earlier this year, the christmas day bomber was convicted in federal court, pled guilty, and faces possible life sentence. we have to ensure that we do all we can to bring terrorists to justice and provide it mission with a full array of authority. in my view, and a view shared by the director of intelligence and the attorney general, it is short-sighted by the congress to hamstring those efforts. as we proceed, we should

remember that, between september 11, 2001 and the end of 2010, many have been successfully prosecuted by the bush and obama administration's. at the same time, five have been convicted in military commissions. the record over the last three years, crime rates have fallen rather than risen, which is contrary to normal during economic times -- during difficult economic times. we should not lose sight of the

big picture and what to the justice department is doing to keep us safe and secure. there will be more questions about firearms and trafficking and events happening at our southern border. the justice policy prohibits the transfer of firearms to known criminals. administration officials have testified its 17 congressional hearings on these matters, including before this committee. bair urged that the senators respect any -- i think anyone

-- i think the women and women of the department of justice to the mend -- i thiank and women of the department of justice who work so hard. >> this is a very important hearing, mr. president -- i mean, mr. chairman. over the time that the attorney general was last year, a concentrated my oversight on operation fast and furious. over nine months ago, general holder said in my office and i handed him two letters of and had written to the acting director kenneth nilsson of atf.

my letter mentioned before -- the death of border patrol perry. the allegations of to those weapons had been founded the scene at aged perry's death, and the whistleblowers who were providing information of this incident were already facing retaliation. "jtf makes every effort to interject weapons the have and purchased illegal improve the transportation to mexico." in the nine months since then, mounting evidence has put the lie to that plane. denials came to light. atf agents testified powerful yet to go house oversight hearings. they also confirmed that gun

walking occurred in operation fast and furious. just last week, assistant attorney general many brewer admitted in this room that the letters to me or false. but it gets worse. mr. brewer also estimated that he knew all that it was false. he could not recall whether he helped edit it. however, he knew that it was false because he was aware of previous gun walking operations called wide receiver. he remained silent for nine months. he was aware that congress had been misled yet made no effort to correct the department's official denial. much has been said recently about guns being walked in operation wide receiver during the bush era. it doesn't matter for me when it happened. we need answers. bush era prosecutors refused to bring the case.

however, under brewers the ship, headquarters -- under brewers leadership, headquarters revised it. gun walking was unacceptable and instituted over such a sector that it did not happen again. he did not do that. mr. brewer admitted before this committee last week that one of this japanese informed him of done walking in wide receiver in 2010. he also admitted that the same deputy approved at least one of the wiretap operations in fast and furious. in order to justify tapping the phones of a private citizen, the law requires that agencies show they have tried everything else first. but the very same fact that would show the need to obtain the wiretap would also show that the department knew these individuals were trafficking in weapons. the government should have stopped the flow of guns to these criminals. anyone reviewing the wiretap

affidavits would probably know that was not happening. i will also add that this tragedy should not be used to call for new gun control. interdictedve been and arrested a year earlier than they were. before all the statistics cited by some of u.s. guns in mexico and u.s. weapons sold to foreign military, weapons that were transferred into mexico years ago, guns from fast and furious, stolen weapons, and many other sources. as we learn more about the utter failure to enforce our existing gun laws in fast and furious, i am your -- i am eager to hear from the attorney general who he plans to hold accountable. i also want to know how he plans to prevent another tragedy like this in the future. but let me be clear. the bottom line is that it does the matter hamill's repast if

those responsible for enforcing the refused to do their duty -- it does not matter how many laws we pass if those responsible for offorcing them refuse to do their duty. >> please raise your right hand. you swear you're testimony you're about to give is the truth, a whole truth, and nothing but the truth? >> i do. >> go-ahead. >> i appreciate the opportunity to appear before it said. over the last three years, have been privileged to partner with many of you in events in the goals and priorities that i think we all share. i'm extremely proud of the department's historic achievements of the past two years. despite significant financial constraints, we have successfully confronted safety challenges. their efforts to combat local terrorism and it has never been

stronger. since i last appeared before this committee in may, just three days after the decade- long hunt for osama bin laden came to a successful end, the department has achieved several milestones. for example, last month, with secured a conviction against the person and his attempted bombing on christmas day. we also have afforded attempted plot against the saudi ambassador to the united states. we also thwarted plots by homegrown terrorists, including in washington state and another in texas. meanwhile, in one of the most complex counterintelligence operations in history, we brought down a ring involving 10

russian spies. just last week, a federal jury in manhattan convicted one of the world's most prolific arms dealers for his efforts to sell billions of dollars worth of weapons, including 800 surface- to-air missiles, and 30,000 a k-47 for use in killing americans. safeguarding our environment and advancing our fight is violent crime come away from the record number of civil rights cases. in the last fiscal year, the civil rights voting section is devoting more investigations have been dissipated in more cases and we saw more matters than in any of a similar time in the last dozen years. the section is also immersed in reviewing redistricting plans and other proposed state and local election law changes that will impact the aspects that

some americans would have to the ballot box. in recent months, the department has challenged immigration- related laws in several states that directly conflict with the enforcement of federal immigration policies. they can lead to potentially discriminatory practices and undermine the bottle trust between local jurisdictions and the communities that they serve. the department is also focused on the fight against financial fraud. " the last two years, the interest to financial fraud task force and successfully executed the largest financial and health care fraud take down the in history. in addition, our security conviction in the bank fraud prosecution, taking down a $3

million fraud scheme. and you're aggressive enforcement of the false claims act, we have secured record- setting recovery of $8 billion ... since january 2009. i am committed to building on his progress. we will spend much of our time talking about the work on doing in the department. but i would like to take time to address the transfer guns into mexico and the operation known as fast and furious that has renewed public attention to this shared national security threat. a lot to be very clear. any instance of so-called gun walking is simply an acceptable. regrettably, this tactic was used as part of the best and furious, which was to combat than trafficking and violence on our southwest border. this operation was flawed in its

concept and flawed in its execution. unfortunately, we will feel the effects for years to come. guns that were lost in during this operation continue to show up at crime scenes both here and in mexico. this should never have happened. and it must never happen again. to ensure that it will not, after learning about the allegations raised by atf agents involved with fast and furious, i took action. i asked the departments of the third general to investigate this matter and ordered that the directive be sent to the agents and prosecutors stating that such tactics while it department policy and would not be tolerated. more recently, the new leadership at atf has implemented reforms to prevent such tactics from being used in the future, including stricter oversight procedures of all investigations. today, i would like to address

some of the inaccurate and frankly some of the irresponsible accusations surrounding fast and furious. some of the overheated rhetoric may lead to believe that the arizona-based operation was somehow the cause of the epidemic of gun violence in mexico. in fact, fast and furious was a flood response to and not the cause of the slow -- the flow of illegal guns from the united states into mexico. as you all know, the trafficking of firearms across our southwest border has long been a serious problem. it is one that has contributed to the 40,000 deaths in mexico in the last five years. as senator feinstein highly 64,000 guns werefour sourced to the united states of america. that is 64,000 guns of 94,000 guns were sourced to this

country. fast and furious should not deter or distract us from the mission to stop the dangers flow of firearms across the south was the southwest border. we have built crime-fighting capacity on both sides of the border by developing new procedures for using evidence gathering and finding gun traffickers in u.s. courts. by successfully fighting to enhance 17 guns for convicted traffickers and store purchasers and by pursuant coordinators, multi-district investigations. this year alone, we headed midget we have had successful investigations of murders of u.s. citizens in mexico. and secured the extradition of 104 defendants wanted by u.s. law enforcement, including the former head of the tijuana

cartel. this work has improved lives in the united states and mexico. i am fully committed to reducing been trafficking and using effective and appropriate tools. like each of you, i want to know why and how the firearms this should have been under surveillance could end up in the hands of the mexican drug cartels. we must be careful not to lose sight of the critical problem that this flawed investigation has highlighted. we're losing the battle to stop the flow of illegal guns to mexico. this means, i believe, that we have the responsibility to act. we can start by listening to the agents, the very agents to serve on the from one of this battle and have testified here in congress. adelaide did they bring the inappropriate in a misguided tactics of fast and furious

delight, but they sounded the alarm to congress that they need our help. atf agents who testified before a house committee this summer explained that the agency's ability to stem the flow of guns from the united states suffers from a lack of support and tools. congressional should work with us to provide a tiff with the resources and the statutory tools it needs to be effective. another would be for congress to fully fund our quest for teams of agents to fight than trafficking. unfortunately, earlier this year, the house of representatives voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchased multiple shotguns in the southwest. they need the tools to detect and disrupt gun traffic and is highly consistent with the constitutional rights of u.s. citizens and it is essential to fighting the crisis along the southwest border.

as someone who has seen the consequences of gun violence firsthand and has met too many grieving families, i will do everything out everett -- everything i can to keep other families from experiencing other tragedies. i am concerned that issues like fast and furious with lead to more than headlines and political scoring. we have sacred responsibilities to fulfil. we must not lose sight of what is really at stake here, lives, futures, families, and communities. when it comes to protecting our fellow citizens and stopping illegal gun trafficking across the southwest border, i hope that we can engage in a responsible dialogue and work toward common solutions and the hope that we can begin the discussion today. >> i think we will begin

discussing a number of issues. i agree with you that, if we're going to stop the flow of guns into mexico, we have to take some steps here in this country. we cannot expect it all to be done across the border. i joined with members of this committee and the intelligence committee to ask the majority leader to refrain from bringing certain provisions in the defense legislation. i know the administration expressed serious concerns with military detention and intervention provisions of the bill as reported by the armed services. it would severely reduce the

options for investigating terrorist threats. it lets other terrorists know which options are off the table, including those that have been more successful in bringing down divisions. even the heritage foundation would deny this flexibility. would you agree that we need to keep our options open and not start taking options off the table? >> i would totally agree. in need all the power agains fighting against terrorism. we need maximum amounts of flexibility and we also have to be practical when it comes to the measures that congress asks us and the executive branch to follow. >> and the majority of our -- almost by 100 to one have been in our courts.

is that correct? >> yes. there fully capable of handling any matter that is brought before them. >> this is in the bush administration and the obama administration. >> that is correct. >> according to media accounts, the operation in yemen followed a secret memorandum issued by the department of justice. it was they targeted killing of a u.s. citizen abroad. without going into the facts of that particular operation, i have risen to last month asking for a copy of the memorandum. is there any problem with providing this committee with a copy of that memorandum? >> i first want to indicate that

i will not address or cannot address this. there is an opinion in this area, but we're committed to working with the two answer your question in an appropriate setting and to the extent can. >> in february, unified congress, the department of justice would no longer enforce the defense of marriage act. all marriages would face equal protection. this will be considered by our committee for a marked up later this week. do you support the respect for

marriage act which would repeal doma? >> the administration does. it is consistent with the action the president has taken. the position we took in court, the administration does support the passage of the bill. >> and the violence against women act withouto be more respe for domestic violence and assault, there have been a lot of hearings in this committee about that. it is discussions began when vice- president joe biden was on this committee. do believe the violence against women act is a top priority especially with state and local governments reducing their

ability to help the victims of sexual assault? >> yes. that is a priority for this administration and i hope it will be a priority and not only for this committee but for the congress as a whole. it has transformed our community a in the way that we have reviewed the subject matter of that act. that is among the top priorities of this administration. >> this will be my last question. they do want to ask about operation passed and the furious. -- operation fast and the furious. house judicial committee on may 3rd, and when they asked when you first knew about it, but you

said you probably heard about it over the last few weeks. as you know, there has been a lot of talk about the reference to "a few weeks." you said in your answer that you were not being precise and basically giving a recollection. by january 28th, you ask for the inspector general to investigate into fast and furious. you also ask this of the appropriations committee. let me ask a question which would give you a chance to be more precise. when did you first learn of the operational tactics in fast and furious? what did you do? >> i first learned about the tactics and the phrase at the beginning of this year when it became a matter of public

controversy. in my testimony before the house committee, i did say a few weeks, but i possibly could have said a couple of months. i do not think the term was an accurate based on what happened. as the center indicated, i had a couple letters of him from the end of january, i will leave january 31st. these letters talked about a connection between an operation and it did not mention fast and furious. it mentioned operation done honor. during the month of february, i became aware of fast and furious from other letters i received from the senator. i asked of them to get to the bottom of that manner. we received information from the u.s. attorney's office in phoenix that contradicted some of these public reports.

it became clear to me that the manner needed to be resolved february 28th, i asked of the inspector general to investigate operation fast and furious. on march 9th, i directed all prosecutors and agents throughout the justice department not to engage in these what tactics that we found in operation fast and furious. i also confirmed the existence of the investigation on march 10th and i testified before the senate appropriations committee. clearly before i testified, i had known about fast and furious for several weeks, as i have indicated, a couple of months. to focus on which day and which months, i'd think, is a bit of a distraction.

>> thank you. senator. >> i was going to start with those letters that you referred to when i gave you on january 31st. you have introduced my question. when we met that day, did you know that the guns connected to an atf investigation had been found a murder scene? >> i did not. >> less than 48 hours later, your deputy was informed that guns found at the scene traced back to fast and furious in. we have emails and briefing papers that went there on december 17th. did they ever say anything to you in december or january about the connection between the guns found at the murder scene? >> it is understandable that the

intermission we share did not indicate any of the tactics which found in the slot operation were actually referenced in the e-mail. he did not share that intermission with me. >> documents produced by the department suggests that your deputy chief of staff spoke about fast and furious shortly after his death. did mr. wilkins and say anything to you about the connections between agent terry's death and the operation? >> he did not. the conversations they had more about the possibility about engaging in a press conference and other matters, but there was no discussion of the tactics that are of concern with regards to fast and furious as a result of that. mr. wilkinson did not share

intermission with me about former agent burke. >> sees as he deeply regrets his failure to talk about gun walking and operation wide receiver. what about his failure to tell congress and correct false statements in the letter to me on february 4th, is that acceptable to you that he did not tell us about those false statements in the letter on february 4th? >> let me clear something up. the information shared with you in that response, there was information that was an accurate. the letter could have been better crafted. and the crafting of that letter, people were relying on information provided to them by people who we thought work in the best position to know what was accurate, people in the u.s. attorney's office, people in the atf, and people have now

testified that they were not aware. but a as a result of the information contained in the february 4th letter to you, that was not accurate. i do not expect to hear a resignation offer. >> even though they have been subpoenaed without a valid reason. whether they knew that it contained false statements or not. >> we will try to work with you and provide the relevant information and we will act with a way that is consistent with other attorney general's that have made information and these

are republican as well as democratic attorney general is. >> if those documents show he reviewed a draft and failed to correct the statements that he knew were false, would that be reason for his resignation? >> that would be a reason for concern, but the people responsible for the drafting of the letter did not know at that time that the information contained in the letter was an accurate. we do now now looking back that the information that was provided to you was an accurate and that is something that i regret. >> he was also aware about the atf walkathons. he approve the wiretap application and debriefed staff in response to my letters. did mr. wines team review a draft of the february 4th letter before it was said to me?

-- did mr. weinstein review a draft? >> i did not know. >> i would have to let people know it was false, they were responsible for the creation of that letter and relied on the information provided to them with what they thought was accurate. really know the information was inaccurate in hindsight. at the time the letter was prepared, are best box was that the information supplied was, in fact, correct. and >> someone leaked a document to the press along with talking points in an attempt to smear one of the whistle-blowers who testified before the house. this document was supposed to be so sensitive that you refused to provide it to congress, but then someone provided it to the press. the name of the suspect was deleted, but the name of the atf

agent was not. this looks like a clear and an intentional violation of the privacy act as well as an attempt at whistleblower retaliation. you already told me that someone has been held accountable for this, but your staff refused to provide us with any details. who was held accountable and how? >> but almost pains me -- and please do not take this away, senator -- but as you said, you sent me a hand written note and we have worked very closely on several things. i looked at it and took it seriously. are referred that letter -- i referred that letter to opr to try and find out what happened. i indicated to you that i had taken that matter seriously.

in a different time in washington, i'm not sure that what you just said would have been shared with everyone here, but so be it. it is a different time, i suppose. in response to your question -- >> i said if he wanted me not to ask this question, i said to have your staff and form my staff because a worker closely with them -- have your staff inform mine so i would know this would be an inappropriate question to rest. >> we will let the attorney general answer. >> you asked but he answered -- >> was before might answer was up. >> you can ask it even though he answered after his time was out. is undere matter investigation.

there are a couple of leaks and they are under investigation by the inspector general by the office of professional responsibility. i am not in a position to comment on ongoing investigations. >> for more reaction on the justice department's program called fast and the curious, visit our web site c-span.org and search "fast and furious." host [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] >> you can watch that monday live on c-span3 at 2:00 p.m. eastern. >> in his new autobiographical narrative, he finally comes to terms with his posttraumatic stress disorder decades after vietnam. >> i started telling this guy

about my symptoms. jumping up in the middle of the night, running inside without knowing what was going on, the car honking behind me, just being out of my mind angry, attacking. he said to me, "have you ever been in a war/" that hit me so hard. i am in a room with 80 people and i started bawling. have i ever been in a war? it was that simple. when i got under some semblance of control, he said, "you have ptsd. ever heard of it?" >> on wednesday, the head of the transportation scary administration announced a pre- check program for passengers which allows for pre-screening before the airport. los angeles, minneapolis will

join miami, dallas, detroit, and atlanta. this announcement was made at a transportation and commerce meeting. this is just under two hours. >> senator rockefeller is on the floor managing a bill there. i have been asked to take over and i was more willing to do that. i thank everyone for being here today. despite this, tsa has primarily

focused on aviation security. 98% of their budget is dedicated to aviation security. that leaves less than 2% for trains, public transportation, which terrorists had fixated on for years. the bombings in london, mumbai, and madrid demonstrate. according to reports, when bin laden was killed, documents recovered at his compound showed that he had trains in his mind that he wanted to attack in our country. our rail network is as fast as it was open. it offers easy access and a chance to strike at high casualties. americans take 10 billion trips aboard trains, subways, and

other forms of public transportation every year compared to 700 million flights. make no mistake. the threat to the american rail network is real. we have to do more than we have to keep it secure. that does not mean at all that we should overlook aviation security. it only means that we need to take a more balanced approach to make transportation safer. the aviation security remains a serious concern particularly in my home state of new jersey. we have had security lapses at new record airport. one incident with a carry-on bag containing a knife got past agents at the airport. in in another, they were able to get in to secure areas without being screened. these raise concerns about our ability to protect the public as

a move for our aviation system. i also remained concerned about the ability to scan baggage effectively and airline baggage fees are causing passengers to carry on more and more, bigger bags. the bottom line is this. while we have serious fiscal challenges, we cannot put a price on human lives. nothing is more important than keeping our communities, fans, -- communities safe. i am pleased that we have administrator pistole here. he is a capable leader and does his job very effectively. i look forward to hearing from him on the security of our entire transportation system. not to be critical at all, but to say that we have to be alert to all the risks that are people

taken we want to reduce them wherever possible. thank you, mr. pistole come for being here. i do not see senator hutcheson here. -- hutchison here. i will call on senator isaacson from georgia. >> i want to thank administrator pistole for being here. this is very timely for me. i represent the state of georgia with hearts bell -- hartsfield, jackson airport has a most takeoffs and landings than any other. airport security is very important to me and i go through security 50-60 times per year.

tsa security is very important to me and i appreciate the hard work the administrator has done and his timely response to an incident that took place in atlanta. i thank you for that. what happened is a whistle- blower is someone went with undercover video of the voting -- loading of food cardts as well as the passage of alleged badge for 4sing 1 people. this raised questions about whether things could have been slipped on these carts. i received a letter today with a partial response in terms of what they have cleared, but a commitment to complete the

investigation to make sure before they comment on whether or not there were breaches. i understand, because of the nature of security and because television is public, and this week always cannot talk about everything that we require because the bad guys may be watching. i hope the administrator today will discuss the redundancies of the requirements and inspections to make sure that these security items are being taken care of. i represent the busiest airport in the world, passengers from every state and country go through the airport. i thank the tsx for what they're doing and recognize that it is always a work in progress and i hope the administration respond to some of the questions. >> i am pleased to call on the

chairman of the environment committee, senator boxer. she is very busy, as we all are. she is always ready to go to work on the next thing. >> thank you for your support today and the importance about the marked up about the highway bill. this is a very timely meeting and i am happy to see you here, mr. pistole. i have a meeting over in a foreign relations about the violence in syria, aso i will be needing to leave. in california, tourism employs more than 800,000 californians. more than 60% of travelers it would take two or three more trips per year of the households could be reduced without compromising security. that is the goal -- it would

take two or three more trips per year if the hassles could be reduced. it would create jobs and our travel industry cannot be ignored. i wrote to the administrator and the support of his efforts to because it ---efforts in the trusted traveler program. the trusted traveler program not only has the potential to reduce inveighs some screening of low risk travelers, but it could help the tsa focus resources where they're needed the most. this program, tsa pre-check, started, and i will not give away everything here, but we will hear about an expansion of this program to several other airports including one very busy one in my state. if i am right on that, may i

thank you publicly for that. i have been calling for this for a long time. i want to reiterate that no one ever wants to compromise security. i rode the language of that expanded the air marshal program for these flights, as we know. those flights were all long hauled that were hijacked that fateful day. my understanding is that we are robust and good, and i know some of it is classified, but to the extent that we could be reassured on that, and also to make sure the guns in the cockpit law is working well and that training is our doing well and we are not competing those

trained pilots from the aircraft. when worse comes to worse, the instruction is not a good one. and the military will be there shooting down an aircraft and pilots should have every right, assuming they're trained to protect the aircraft. mr. chairman, i thank you very much and i look forward to reading your testimony. if i am right on this news, then i thank you so much, sir. >> thank you very much. senator blunt. >> thank you, chairman. i will submit some statements for the record. thank you for your important good work, mr. pistole. i want to talk about, when we have time for questions, the issue of tsa the airports, and what i continue to believe would be the importance of a private sector competitor, and that is

what the airport wants to do. i remember this debate when tsa was created. the theory was that tsa would benefit if the airport, tsa, and others would benefit if there were other options. the problems at hartsfield- jackson, whether it is the springfield-branson airport that would like to go to an outside provider, or the kansas city airport, have with the size between springfield-branson and the huge airport in atlanta, who has had a private provider the whole time. they have had, what i thought, some unfortunate experience just try to extend private contract. as it turns out, the courts agreed whenever your agency was taken to the claims court.

i want to talk about that a little more, but all of us understand the critical importance of your work. i want to join senator boxer's comment on the importance of foreign travel. we're looking at ways to make of these a process work better, entry and exit work better. there are ways to meet the security needs of the country and still encourage the friendship and economic impact that foreign travelers make. they stay longer, they spend more, and they've invariably, in all cases, like us a better when they left than when they came. there are all kinds of positive repercussions unless the memory is how terrible it was getting in and out of the country. i know your organization as more and more conscious of that all the time. this committee would be very interested in working with you to provide the tools and support

that you need to make that part of a traveling to america work in a way that encourages safety and those people that want to come back. i yield. >> senator cantwell. >> thank you for having this important meeting. i look forward to hearing from the tsa about the security measures on the cargo front and passenger side. i just did want to give it a congratulations to united airlines and alaska airlines. on monday, united became the first u.s.-based air carrier to fly a domestic flight using debt and fuel and aviation biofuel. beginning today, on alaskan will operate 75 flights with 25% aviation biofuel blends.

but there pushing forward on this important area of aviation transportation ban. mr. kristol, i thank you for being here and i think you have a thankless job. our nation's security, and safeguarding and come as such an important issue with 400 commercial airports and 700 million air passengers each year. it is a huge challenge in washington state, we moved a lot of cargo container traffic, but we certainly believe in an international standard that will help us prevent dangerous cargo from ever reaching our shores. we certainly not want to make sure that the technology deployments are happening.

like my colleagues, i want to hear about the new passenger screening and profiling issues and to make sure that we are meeting a variety of challenges that come with those responsibilities. like my previous colleague mentioned, the security measures are important, but it is important to keep commerce moving as well. it is critically essential in this hard economic times mature we're doing everything we can to move traffic. i appreciate you holding this hearing and i look for it to asking some very specific questions about the process with passengers and cargo. thank you, mr. chairman. >> i will wait to ask questions. i appreciate mr. pistole being here and for the difficult work to do to keep our country safe.

>> i will waive my time as well. >> the ranking member of the committee, senator kay bailey hutchison, is here. >> it is good to have you back. we will see how you weather the storms and there have been some. i just wanted to say that i think there are kinks that need to be worked out for the privacy and comfort of the passengers that are going through these new machines were you have to put your hands up and get photographed. i hope that you are continuing your work on these things, because i do here complaints about them. having gone through them, i do not understand those concerns.

i just hope that we will continue. the senator from missouri said we want to make this a pleasant experience. particularly international travel where we want to have a good experience and we want them to come back you have had a terrifically difficult job, which we know. i would like to hear your statement about where you are finding improvements and what your future suggestions will be. with that, i will put the rest of my statement in the record. thank you, mr. chairman. >> now i call on mr. pistole. i asked you -- i ask you to make your testimony.

everyone knows, i believe, that john the stall is the administrator for the transportation security administration -- that john pistole is the administrator. he will update us on tsa's efforts to ensure the security guard transportation system and i thank you for coming, mr. pistole. i now ask you to give your testimony. >> good morning chairman rockefeller, ranking member hutchison, and distinguished members of the committee. thank you for the opportunity to testify today about the transportation security

administration's on-going efforts to develop and implement a more risk-based approach to secure our nation's transportation systems. when i last appeared before this committee this past june, our plans to implement additional risk-based security measures were still in their formative stages. i am pleased to report that we have now begun operational testing of several key aspects of risk-based security that i will describe. tsa employs risk-based, intelligence-driven operations to prevent terrorist attacks and to reduce the vulnerability of the nation's transportation system to terrorism. our goal at all times is to maximize transportation security to stay ahead of evolving terrorist threats while protecting privacy and facilitating the flow of legitimate commerce. tsa's security measures create a multi-layered system of transportation security that mitigates risk. we continue to evolve our security approach by examining the procedures and technologies we use, how specific security procedures are carried out, and how screening is conducted. since i became tsa administrator, i have listened to ideas from people all over this country, including our key stakeholders and security professionals, and i have heard from our dedicated workforce and our counterparts abroad

about how tsa can work better and smarter. based on this feedback, last fall, i directed the agency to begin developing a strategy for enhanced risk-based security, which is based on the simple premise of focusing our limited resources on the passengers we know least about. i am pleased to report to the committee today that in the past few months we have taken concrete steps to implement key components of the agency's intelligence-driven, risk-based approach to security, advancing the agency toward the ultimate goal of providing the most effective security in the most efficient way possible. this past october, tsa began testing a limited and voluntary passenger pre-screening initiative with a small known traveler population at four u.s. airports. this pilot program will help assess measures designed to enhance security, by placing more focus on pre-screening individuals who volunteer information about themselves prior to flying in order to potentially expedite the travel experience. these domestic best opportunity to find both metallic and non- metallic threats and have detective items as small as a coin or a raft piece of gum.

-- wrapped piece of gum. continue to work closely, but the combination of technology, policy, and a methodology to drive risk-based security, last month we began a voluntary pre- screening initiative being tested in four airports today. they volunteer information about themselves. they are able to the best fewer items which could include leaving on their shoes, belts, a light jacket. we will always in corporate random and unpredictable measures and no point is a traveler guaranteed expedited

screening. laws vegas, los angeles, and minneapolis-st. paul. -- las vegas. this will include a crewmember screening system which will help positively identify and verify the identity of airline pilots. tens of thousands of airline pilots through this expedited screening will be recognized as the most trusted people on an aircraft.

behavioral analysis will be used to determine if a traveler should receive additional screening. this is used by many security agencies worldwide and allows them to dispel suspicious behavior. preliminary how analysis -- a preliminary analysis shows progress, but we need more data. in august, we implemented new screenings for children 12 and under, allowing them to leave their shoes on and go through and less intrusive screening. families have responded favorably to the changes. i am also pleased to report their initiation of the aviation security advisory committee of with the 24 members being named by secretary of napolitano. let me close with these

thoughts. innovation, partnerships, and a commitment to the pursuit of excellence are the watchwords of a move into 2012. thank you for the opportunity to be here today. >> you seem to be in eight no- win situation as of late, but that is your usual condition, is it not? the tsa has been criticized for an overt reliance of a physical screening. everyone got upset and. you have been urging us to pursue a more risk-based method based on the passengers. now the tsa its criticizing clearly you need to use a variety of tactics to achieve

the best results. i just want to ask you a question. you letters -- you will never the american public while keeping them secure? >> we need to do so in the best way to preserve civil liberties and that is our challenge every day traveling to the 450 airports. there is an opportunity for someone to not be 100% satisfied, as with any business or government activity, but yes, is a challenge. >> my traveling is not as an international or brain how some members of this committee, -- or urbane. urbane, for me, is jackson hole. i have yet to see a tsa member

be rude. on a number of occasions, sometimes involving transition problems, were they do the best they can, i've seen them go to the furthest point of politeness extending themselves, even though there is a long line waiting. on a number of occasions, i have gotten their names and want to write their supervisor what a good job they're doing. it is very interesting. people complain. i travel, not as much as i used to before i messed up my knee, but my reaction is a good one. you change your methodologies, you changed different technologies. i can remember five years ago going through dulles and putting

my figure on a pad and i was told it would be operational in time and that was four or five years ago. in other words, your people have to adjust. they have a certain degree of turnover some of that is economic, although you have tried your best and the other is that other opportunities occur and they take them. are your people keeping up with what is that you want them to do? >> thank you for those positive comments, chairman. the men and women who work the checkpoints every day appreciate the feedback anytime there is a positive because the negative ones are the ones that are obviously heard in the press. clearly, it is a paradigm shift in our risk-based initiatives to get away from a one-size- fits-all to look at everyone as a possible terrorist, so the

approach that we are taking, and and we have a work from the work force which is to exercise more common sense to look at the person as much as the prohibitive item with the key being looking for those items that could cause a catastrophic failure to an aircraft. there is an initiator, some kind of electronic and the shooter, coupled with some type of math that could be an explosive, maybe in the critics was a bit, but those two things. how do we distinguish between those that we assess and make a judgment about recognizing it is mist but -- risk mitigation, not elimination. can we treat those that we know nor about because they have voluntarily shared of formation about us whether it is through customs and border patrol or the tsx-pre check program we're doing now. if we know more, we can make

better judgments of the expedited screening possibility, and over 45,000 people have party gone through it, and allows us to focus our limited resources on those that may pose a higher risk, such as those we know only name, date of birth, and gender, and we will know more about because they are on the watch list. we start every day with an intelligence briefing from around the world with cia, nsa, sbi. what are the terrorists thinking? what technologies are they working with? how they try to defeat our layers of defenses? how can we use that in a smart and informed fashion? that is what it is all about. >> i was trying to settle into my position and i will ask the more interesting questions in my next go around. >> senator hutchison.

>> in february, you changed the longstanding gravitation from collective bargaining -- the long standing accreditation. while this prohibits them from striking are engaging in slowdowns, it does allow for collective bargaining on non- security deployment issues. can you update us on the status of that and what you anticipate to be the issues that are involved in a collective bargaining when a strike and slowdowns are not possible but the kind of work required if those are in negotiation. i would like to note that will hamper and in any way the effectiveness of your ability to say exactly what needs to be done for security purposes.

>> in the short answer, it will not effect security in any way. what i announced in february was to do two things, to recognize a decision that required that we hold an election for the purposes of exclusive bargaining, but without regards to collective bargaining. that did not make a whole lot of sense to me, so my determination was to allow the security officers to vote on whether they wanted collective bargaining because there was already 12 or 13,000 paying union dues without collective bargaining. if they voted in favor then to move forward with collective bargaining at the national level. elections were held and was close between two unions. there was a runoff election to see who won and since that time

this summer, we have been working through a hybrid labor- management relationship that is unique in the federal government and in the private sector because of the authority given under the enabling legislation from november 19th, 2001. what allows us to do not is take any issues relating to security and focus on those issues that i have heard that are important to the security officers. there are things like pay and benefits, but that is not something that i agreed to be subject to collective bargaining, along with the right to strike. what we have been in discussion with the unions are are the appeal of disciplinary manners, how that should be handled, bidding on a shift that they worked, issues about uniforms. they are all non-security issues. we are to the point of having

ground rules being finalized and then we will be ready to move forward to address the issues important to our security officers. >> your view that this will be able to work out in a way that will not in any way endanger the security part of their jobs? >> absolutely. i need to credit the congress for the insight and precedents in terms of the enabling legislation that gave the broad discretion authority recognizing the inherent security issues unique to the aftermath of 9/11, so thank you for that. >> let me ask you about the added program for noun travelers to the three new airport. is it your intention to continue to add more airports as you see the results of what you

have now and how it is working? as you are adding airports, are you putting new processes in place because you have learned from something that worked or did not? if so, what? >> thank you, senator. after we expand to vegas, los angeles, and minneapolis, we want to look at other airports with other carriers. for example, several carriers are going through mergers, southwest, airtran, so there systems are such that they are not quite ready to move forward, but they will be in the first quarter of next year. i hope to be announcing additional airlines in reports that we will be able to accommodate those passengers in those frequent-flier programs and also the cbp people and pay

a fee for the program. the goal is to expanded as broadly as possible while maintaining the highest level of security and it is all done on a voluntary basis. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, mr. pistole. >> and now we go to johnny isakson. >> thank you, mr. chairman. in the investigative report done in atlanta, there were instances under undercover cameras catching one employees swiping their i.d. card and holding the turnstile for three of the people to go through. as i and stand it, that is referred to as escorting or piggybacking. can you explain whether that would be permissible and what would not be permissible? >> as a general rule, neither

would be. i do not have the details on this incident, but it is a situation where all four may be authorized access and simply one person is holding the door as a courtesy for the other three as opposed to swiping. they should all swipe if that is required access of there is record of the employee. i do not have the details for this particular matter, but that is part of what we are looking into. >> i do not know, and you may not either, but at hartsfield- jackson, was that the first encounter with a security check, or where there have been a previous one before they get to that point? >> i do not know specifically. that is airport-specific, so at some airports they would go through any exterior security checkpoint, either at the vehicle or the individual, and i simply do not know on this one. >> part of the reason, rather than having the security, is so you know who is at work, who is

not at work, and they get credit reporting. in terms of the two entities for the food-service, do you normally come i guess you approve a contractor and they go through a certain process to be approved for security. i would guess that is true. >> generally, we established the security requirements for the catering company that the airport enters into a contract with. we are not necessarily involved in that, but we do establish a security regiment and in spite to the standards. >> you have standards at that the airport has to meet and they do the approval of the provider, whomever it is. and do you randomly or periodically inspect those? you make sure you -- they are complying? >> we do hundreds if not thousands of inspections across the country involving a number

of things, but relating to the catering company's common we do random and unpredictable inspections, if you will, with the airport and catering companies to assess whether they are following the security regimen, the protocols that we have. >> we had a process called mystery shopping where we would have mystery shoppers that would test the performance of our employees in terms of service and courtesy. do you use that type of approach from time to time? >> the inspector general and the gao uses them in a covert testing looking at what we consider to be part of the insider threat, people who have access to secure areas of airports, yes. >> with regards to the inspection process, and at hartsfield-jackson, they have done a great job working on the throughput. it has been very good. i'm wondering about the radiation.

there was another committee hearing saying you were rhee about weeding the effects of radiation in the new inspections. can you talk about that? >> the testing that had been done before we ever employed the advanced imaging technology were that all the independent studies demonstrated that the minute amount of radiation that was being committed to was well below anything that would ever reach even minimum standards of safety. the equivalent was three minutes at altitude flying, the natural radiation equivalent of going through one time. that being said, in response to a question from senator collins, she wanted a new independent study done by the dhs. since that time, there has been an ig report that is a draft

they have allowed me to speak on today which confirms our previous findings based on their study in their analysis. they made, i think, five or six recommendations that we agree with. none of them go to the actual safety issues. my strong belief is that those types of machines are still completely safe, always have been, want to reassure the travelling public on that. if the determination is that this id study is not sufficient, then i will look at it yet another additional study. >> my time is up, and thank you for your prompt response to my request. >> thank you, mr. chairman. the team did not spring for this.

i know where the power is, mr. chairman. mr. pistole, one of the many benefits of rail travel is the ability to efficiently get on the train and get moving to your destination. what can we do to improve security without sacrificing convenience to the large number of passengers that use rail and public transportation? >> it comes down to the partnership we have, for example, with amtrak and they're very effective with deployment of canine officers, at certain stations where they enter, random bag searches, and their presence on the trains. i think that is significant. also, the visible and term-

modal response. -- intermodal. cctv, a former officers, and canines. of those three things are what we try to use, whether it is metro transit authority, new jersey, new york, the is that how the front line responsibility so we can augment their resources either through training, personnel, or thrown the hardening of targets like we have done through the tunnels of new jersey and new york. >> as mentioned in my opening remarks, we do not spend as much as one would think with the volume of traffic and that there is on real. >> i could comment on that, senator.

if you look at our budget, that is true, but when you look at the grant funding that we provide, not included in our budget, then the ratio changes somewhat significantly and it is much more can to what the actual risk scores that we provided that say here is where we assess the aviation rest and here is the surface risk, so when you look at the total funding, frankly the several billion dollars we provide in surface transportation three grant funding, the ratio comes out much more consistent with how we assess risk. >> last year, the gao found that tsa needed to do a better job of providing transit security to the areas most vulnerable to attack. what do we do to make adjustments to that process to

ensure that funding is it spent in the highest risk areas? >> one thing we have done this year, senator, it is to enter into a memorandum of agreement with fema where they accept our risk assessment and then allocate funds based on the risk assessment and the demonstrated need for the grant application process. we found that worked much better this year than in previous years because we are putting the money where the highest risks are. the new york metropolitan area, including parts of new jersey, received more area than others that were percent -- perceived being a higher risk. >> we are going to be pretty observant about that as we come into this next fiscal year. we still have that we still have that vulnerability