thank you. >> next, "the contenders." today, the life of george wallace. after that, a british inquiry into phone hacking. then, a discussion of online accuracy and the first amendment. >> good evening, and welcome to "the contenders." we come to you live from the governor's mansion in montgomery, alabama, as we look at the life and times of the presidential political candidate george wallace. elected governor of alabama four times, george wallace lived here for 20% of his life. before we begin our conversation on george wallace and his legacy and introduce you to our guest, here is a look at his political style.

>> if you cannot distinguish at harvard between honest dissent and an overt act of treason, you should come down to alabama and we will show you some law down there. >> both national parties in the last number of years have about down to every group of anarchists that have roamed the streets of san francisco and los angeles. [applause] now they have created themselves a frankenstein's monster and the chickens are coming home to roost all over this country. >> i love you, too. i sure do. [laughter] i thought you were a she. you are a he. oh, my goodness. >> in california, a group of anarchists laid down in front of his automobile. threatened his personal safety, the president of the united states.

if you elect me president, if i come to california, or if i come to arkansas, and some of them lie down in front of my automobile, it will be the last one they ever lie down in front of. >> we are joined here in the governor's mansion in montgomery, alabama -- two miles south of downtown montgomery. dan carter, biographer of "george wallace -- the politics of rage." dr. carter, you describe george wallace as the most influential loser of the 20th-century. what do you mean by that? >> in the 20th century with the rise of conservativism, and i cannot think of anyone more than influential, not so much in creating ideas, but in showing there was a tremendous amount of support in the country for what was at that time the new conservatism that ultimately evolved.

>> what is the new conservatism? >> it metamorphized over the years, but in the early stages it was very closely went with the activism of the federal government and, particularly, the flashpoint of the civil rights movement. that is where george wallace got his start, but it was something that was far broader than simply what was happening in the south. >> george wallace was first elected governor of alabama in 1962. where did he come from? >> barbour county, one of the most politically active counties and areas of alabama. as somebody said, there was not much to do except get involved in politics, so that is what george wallace did. he turned out to be very good at it. coming back after world war ii having served as an engineer, b-29 engineer, flying in the pacific, he ran for the state legislature, easily won. he was an up-and-coming figure. he then was elected judge.

he was so popular he decided to run for governor in 1958. the problem was he ran as a moderate. >> what is a moderate in alabama? >> a moderate in alabama in 1958 was someone who emphasized law and order. certainly governor wallace was a segregationist just as much as his opponent, john patterson. there were nuances you had to listen for. when judge wallace, as he was then, emphasized that he was going to uphold the law and criticized his opponent for having the backing of the ku klux klan, that was a way of saying to voters i am a segregationist, but i am a rational segregationist. i am not going up in violence. he lost in the primary, and that was tantamount to being elected.

john patterson ran, as he himself said later on, as a stronger segregationist candidate. that is why wallace lost. at that point, i think he faced a critical kind of crossroads in his career. there was no place for him to go except to tap into the rising tide of anti-government conservatism, which was at that time built around the civil rights movement. then he is elected easily in 1962. >> what did he change? >> he became a much stronger proponent of segregation and essentially -- later on we associate him with a standing in the schoolhouse door. "i will stand in the schoolhouse door to prevent segregation." that is what he did, although he had to back out of the door

pretty quickly. >> he ran for president in 1964. after two years as governor of alabama. when he ran the democratic primary, lyndon johnson had become president after the assassination of john kennedy. johnson insisted he was too busy, so he did not actually run as a candidate. he had a series of surrogates in the democratic primaries. >> when wallace announced that he was going to run for the democratic primary, nobody paid any attention to him. he got about two paragraphs in the "new york times." when he went to a northern state in 1964, the governor predicted he would not get 1% of the vote. he got 33% of the vote. it stunned everyone i think it was at that moment that pundits, political observers realised that the separation in the south, was going on in the

south was not just southern. clearly there was a constituency for someone like wallace. an avowed segregationist in the south. >> george wallace ran for president in 1964, 1968, 1972, and 1976. in 1968 he won five states and 46 electoral votes. that is the last time an independent candidate has won any electoral votes. here is george wallace announcing in 1968. >> over the past year i have repeatedly stated that one of the existing political parties must offer the people of this country a real choice in 1968, or that i would lead a political effort that would offer this choice. i have travelled throughout our country in the past year, literally from concord, new hampshire to los angeles, california, to miami, florida. the american people are hungry for a change in the direction of our national government.

they are concerned and disturbed about the trends being followed by our national leadership. there has been no response by any of the parties the which showed the american people that they are heeding the growing disillusionment that amounts to the one-party system in the united states. no prospective candidate of the two existing parties or anyone in leadership positions have come forward with any indication that there will be any difference in their platforms. no one has suggested that the wishes of the american people will be heard. so, today i state to you that i am a candidate for president of the united states. my wife, the governor of alabama, joins me in this decision. my wife and i, together, in making this announcement are carrying out our commitment the people of alabama made during her campaign in the year 1966. i will run to win. we will, of course, discuss in

depth as time goes on the issues and our solutions to problems that face the american people. >> dan carter, why was george wallace so successful in 1968? >> his campaign was successful for the reasons he was usually successful. he had an almost unnatural ability to size up both the audience he spoke to and public opinion. a couple of pollsters used to say -- i always listened to what governor wallace is going to say because i knew the next time i poll, that is the way it would poll. that may be an exaggeration, but he was certainly aware that in 1964 he may have seemed like a flash in the pan, revolving around the civil rights act of 1964. that was the main issue then.

by 1968 you have riots in the cities. you have the anti-war movement. you had a general reaction throughout the country as americans realized the civil rights movement was not only having an impact in the south, but the passage of the civil rights act in 1965 was to affect the rest of the country as well. everything from housing to jobs. suddenly there is a constituency -- he knew it was out there -- opposed to the activities of the federal government. particularly the role of the courts, the role of the presidency and johnson and the great society. he knew that as an independent candidate he also had the possibility -- and it was a long shot. he did not think he was going to win, secretly. but he knew there was a possibility they could get enough votes as a third-party candidate to throw the election

into the house of representatives, something that had not been done over 100 years. >> was that his goal? >> he was running for president. he always thought he was going to be elected. but he was pretty realistic and realized it was a long shot in 1968. he was also thinking about 1972. even if they did not win in 1968, he saw himself as stronger by 1972. he was not governor at the time in 1968 when he was running. >> his wife, lurleen wallace, had been elected in his place in 1966 because he could not succeed himself at that time. she practically died in office. albert brewer succeeded her and supported him in that campaign. he was not governor, but he did have the support of the state of alabama pretty successfully. >> what was happening in april, 1968 when martin luther king was assassinated?

what was george wallace's reaction? what did he do? >> he made perfunctory remarks about how tragic it was and talked about it a couple of times. he really did not respond publicly very much. he responded earlier much more to the assassination of john kennedy, despite the fact that he always saw kennedy as his foil for standing in the schoolhouse door, trying to keep out black students in 1963. he really respected him. when kennedy was assassinated, it disturbed him deeply, i think, in part because he realizes that the assassination of a public figure like kennedy could happen to him as well.

>> you have a picture in your book of president kennedy touring alabama in 1963. not a picture that jfk wanted to have published. >> he made every effort to make sure he was not photographed side-by-side with george wallace. for him it was politics. he may have not liked wallace. in some ways, his brother in particular admired his political skills. he did not like him, but he realized that politically this was not going to do him any good to have this picture next to governor wallace. >> there is the picture. you could see it was taken by a a long lens. jfk getting off the helicopter and greeting governor wallace. what was his reaction in june 1968 when rfk was shot? >> he really did not like robert kennedy. they had had a number of disagreements. they had met at some great

length in the month preceding the standing in the schoolhouse door. once again, he used it to talk about the rise of lawlessness in america, but i do not think he was deeply touched by it at all. >> dan carter, in 1968, how serious did president nixon and hubert humphrey take george wallace? >> humphrey worried about him because he saw him as potentially pulling votes. as time went on i think humphrey came to realize that wallace was going to be pulling votes from nixon. he did not worry about him as much. nixon is the one who came to be deeply concerned about him. as the campaign opened, nixon was so far ahead in the polls that it was only by the time you got to late september that he began to realize that

humphrey was moving back a little bit, coming up in the polls, and wallace was pulling 20% of the votes. these were his voters, his political advisers felt. he had to figure out a way to get the support of wallace voters without directly attacking him. >> president nixon won in 1968. 31.7 million votes. 301 electoral votes. hubert humphrey, 31.3 million votes and 191 electoral votes. george wallace received nearly 10 million votes and 46 electoral votes. here is george wallace discussing the 1968 campaign. >> the support we have in at this region of the country gives us an excellent base. it will go forth in the

beginning with at least the 177 electoral votes that comprise the states of the south. when you couple that with just a few other states of the union, then you have enough electoral votes necessary to win the presidency. no new party movement has ever had the grass roots support that our movement has. there are movements that are movements of personalities of some small group representing only a small fraction of the public vote. but our movement does represent in my judgment the majority thinking of the american people at this moment and will represent it november 5.

>> we are back live in montgomery, alabama. this is a live picture of the governor's mansion, two miles south of downtown montgomery. dan carper, how is it that george wallace got 10 million votes and 46 electoral votes? >> all the states he won were in the deep south. to him, that was a disappointment. he had hoped to break into some of the border states. it was close in a number of them -- north carolina and virginia, and particularly tennessee. he was within striking distance. although he was disappointed, it was an extraordinary showing. no political third-party candidate since strom thurmond in 1948 had even carried enough votes in a state to take the electoral vote. he saw it as a strategy that did not succeed, but one that was sound, i think, in 1968. >> we want to get you involved

in this program on "the contenders." this week, a legacy of george wallace. we will get to those calls in just a minute. last week on "the contenders" we talked about hubert humphrey and so much of the discussion was about the vietnam war. can you talk about george wallace without talking about segregation or civil rights? >> he was the first candidate, the first person, i should say, to testify in favor of a constitutional amendment guaranteeing school prayer against the supreme court decision. he talked an awful lot about pornography and the dangers of

pornography. but it was a mixed -- you have to remember, this was the 1960's and 1970's. for example, he supported roe v. wade. he came out in favor of the equal rights amendment when it was first proposed. at this time, yes, there were these social issues, but they did not have that hard edge there were later to have in the 1980's and 1990's. the vietnam one was particular interesting because most conservatives the position that barry goldwater did, the position of victory at any cost. george wallace sensed the people were very ambivalent about that war. he wanted to be up against the hard-liners. he did it by coming up with this formulation. he would go in, win at any cost, or we pull out. that way he sort of had both

sides. >> what was he known for as governor of alabama? he was elected four times. >> the support came from the race issue, there is no question about it. alabamians and many white southerners felt besieged. here you had someone -- governor wallace was their champion. they saw him as the kind of person who would speak up on their behalf, not apologetically, but very forcefully. i think that was part of it. the other part was -- you have to remember, george wallace came out of the 1930's as a franklin roosevelt liberal. he was very liberal in the state legislature. he did have a program, which was often abused, but it was a program which emphasized increases in education, the establishment of community

colleges around the state that would be accessible to individuals who cannot afford to go to the university of alabama, but they could attend the community college for a couple of years, maybe get a tech degree or whatever. education was a big part of it. but i think the underlying force of this passion for governor wallace was, at least in the 1960's, was the race issue. >> our first call on george wallace comes from michigan. you are on the contenders. we are live from montgomery alabama. >> thank you very much. what appeal did governor wallace have to white ethnic and religious groups like jews, italians, irish, etc., outside of the south and the urban areas? also, what did he take from senator goldwater? senator goldwater was also against the civil rights stuff. thank you very much.

>> he did have a remarkable appeal to ethnic, particularly first generation, eastern europeans. he did not have the baggage of being anti-semitic and of being anti-foreign. what he found was, particularly in many urban areas of the north, was he found that the very prosperity of the 1950's and 1960's had created tension between blacks and ethnics in the working-class communities in which african-americans were finally getting jobs, finally getting housing. they're often moving in and conflicting directly with these working-class ethnic neighborhoods. >> dan carter, so much was going on in civil rights in alabama during his first tenure as governor in 1963-1967, including the bombing of the church in birmingham and the killing of the four young girls. what was his reaction to that?

>> that was one of the most difficult moments, i think, for him at the time. i do not doubt one moment that he was genuinely horrified, particularly when it happened. he told al lingo, the head of the state police, do what you have to do to find out who did this. it changed, i think partly because governor wallace reacted as he often did when he felt under attack, and that was to fight back. i think after a few weeks although he continued to insist he was trying to get to the bottom of this, he privately claimed to many individuals that maybe blacks had set these bombs or communist had set these bombs. it showed how difficult it was,

i think, for him to have to deal with it, but it was not his finest hour. >> what was his relationship with bull connor? >> an ambivalent one. connor was a loose cannon. he certainly found bull connor a useful ally during the heights of the civil-rights movement and birmingham demonstrations. he never made any real effort to rein connor in. >> george wallace served as governor of alabama from 1963- 1967 and again from 1969-1971. his final term was 1983, 1989. he died when he was 79 years old. he lived in this mansion behind us for 20% of his life.

the next call comes from san diego. >> good evening. i wanted to know what kind of relationship did governor wallace have with lyndon johnson? apparently lyndon johnson was known to persuade people. when did george wallace finally abandon his philosophy of segregation? thank you. >> lyndon johnson -- the most famous moment between lyndon johnson and wallace came in the midst of the selma crisis in which president johnson brought him to washington, or actually, governor wallace volunteered to meet with him where he got the full treatment from lyndon johnson.

he was pretty intimidated by the whole process, but he was not alone in that respect. lyndon johnson intimidated everyone. that was, of course, in the early 1960's. the last hurrah for the kind of racial campaign came in 1970 against albert brewer, who had been one of his proteges. he replaced his wife as governor. in the wake of that campaign, it was a pretty all out use of the race issue, attacks that brewer was a candidate of blacks. in the aftermath of that, politically, he said to many of his aides that this was the last campaign he would be able to run like this. the public mood of voters was changing and black voters were fully enfranchised at that moment. when he emotionally changed -- that, i think, really comes later on. >> as we discussed with dan carter a little earlier, george kellner was governor in 1968

and lost in 1962. here is a bit from the speeches in 1968 and 1962. >> if i did not have what it took to treat a man there -- fair regardless of his color, then i do not have what it takes to be governor of this great state. today, i have stood where once jefferson davis stood and took an oath to my people. it is very appropriate that from the cradle of the confederacy, this very heart of the great anglo-saxon southland, that today we sound the drums of freedom as the generations before us have done time and again. let us rise to the cause of freedom-loving blood that is in us and send our answer in the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth. i draw a line in the dust and i say segregation now,

segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever. [applause] >> dan carper, the power of those words from 1963. >> pretty amazing. it really got him the first serious national attention. his aides worked very hard to make sure all the networks were there. it was the first stage in think took him out of a position of being a narrow, parochial, southern politician and put him on the national stage. that speech was written by asa carter, one of his unofficial aids who had been a klansman and became the writer of a number of best-selling novels

under the name forrest carter. people to gather ideas from a lot of other people. it caught people's attention. >> danny in mississippi, you are on "the contenders." please go ahead with your question or comment. >> thank you. my question is as far-fetched as it might seem, but what if george wallace would have been elected president? i know there would have been compromise on both sides, but you think he would have been a good president? would the people have supported him? i will hang up and listen to what you gentlemen say. >> the only time that he even, i think, stood a chance of being elected was not in 1968,

but 1972, and it would have been an extraordinarily long shot. certainly he would have been a different president than he was campaigner. i cannot imagine him being an effective president because although there were 25% of the american people, mostly white americans, who supported him, he always had the great hostility of well over half the american people. it is hard to govern under those circumstances. >> dan carter, was george wallace religious? >> yes. he was a lifelong methodist. it is interesting, during these years, the 1960's and 1970's, about the only time he even talked about religion even in an indirect way was when he ran in 1962. he did say he was taking liquor out of the governor's mansion because big jim folsom, his

mentor, had not taken liquor out of the governor's mansion. he talked about it in terms of being a christian that he was going to do it. totally different kind of views of religion in the 1960's. politicians just did not do that during that time. >> with all the campaigns he ran, did he enjoy politics? hubert humphrey was the happy warrior. al smith, the happy warrior. was he a happy warrior? >> absolutely. he would not have been successful, i do not think. any good politician, i think, have to more than tolerate it. in his case, you would have to be a psychiatrist to figure out each politician, but i think he enjoyed the adulation of the crowd. it was a kind of love affair between him and many of his constituency. he was enormously popular in alabama. he loved that feeling of people

supporting him. >> here is more from his 1963 gubernatorial inaugural address. >> each state within its own framework has the freedom to teach, develop, to ask for and received help from others of separate racial stations. this is a great freedom from our american founding fathers, but if we amalgamate into one unit as advocated by the communist philosophers, then the enrichment of our lives, the freedom of our development is gone forever. we stand for everything and for nothing. we respect the separateness of others and are divided in an effort that has been so twisted and destroyed that there is no wonder that communism is today

winning the world. the negro citizens of alabama will work with us from their separate racial station as we will work with him to develop, to grow in individual freedom and enrichment. we want jobs and a future for both races. we want to help the physically and mentally sick of both races. the strong and the infirm. this is the basic tenet of our religion. for we are all the handiwork of god. >> dan carter, that was from the same speech as "segregation now, segregation tomorrow." was he moderating its position? what was he doing? >> he made a few changes from the original. that does not sound like asa carter. that sounds more like george

wallace. it is an attempt to take a little bit of the edge of the harshness of the speech itself. it is an interesting part of that speech. it only has one line there. it becomes a constant motif, and that is the reference to communism. we do not think about that so much today in terms of anything except the cold war, spies. but for white southerners and many americans around the country, the civil rights movement was the handiwork of communists. it is hard to remember how frightened americans were and how much they believed the communist infiltration had taken place. civil rights seem to be a place they would operate. it was a useful weapon against the movement to emphasize that. >> george wallace's running mate in 1968 was air force general, curtis lemay. our next call comes from harry in oakland, maryland. good evening. >> how are you doing?

>> good. >> i remember in 1972 as a college student at allegheny college in cumberland, maryland, he came to the campus one day. the following day he was shot at the world mall. what i can remember of that is i read about something that does not seem to be talked about much. he went through a major transition after this. i think i read that he did talk openly about it and had some sort of religious conversion so predict conversion somewhat. also, i can remember seeing him received an award from alabama's naacp. that was in his last term as

governor, i think. am i wrong on that or not? i can remember actually watching that and i was amazed to see the transformation from segregationist to basically receiving that type of recognition. >> thank you very much. we are going to be discussing all of that throughout the evening on "the contenders." give us a snapshot of what harry was speaking about. >> if you want to know what happens with white's attitudes towards race, just follow george wallace's career. he was a hard segregationist, using the race issue in the 1960's, but by the 1970's and after he was nearly assassinated, and as the whole political structure changed and blacks came to play a larger role in the democratic party -- both politically and in his own thinking, i think he was a different person. >> very quickly, the 1972

campaign -- how was he doing prior to getting shot? >> george wallace in 1972 was outpolling everyone up through may in the primaries. it is amazing to think about it. george mcgovern had emerged in the eyes of the national media as the candidate. he sort of brushed aside the other candidates. but in terms of votes, up until the day he was shot, governor wallace had considerably more votes than george mcgovern did. >> the next call for our guest, dan carter, the author of this book "the politics of rage," comes from montana. charles, you are on "the contenders." >> was he influenced by huey long at all? did he ever think about running for federal office -- senate or the house? most likely senate? >> no. he claims he was not influenced

by long at all. i think that is probably unlikely. the was certainly familiar with the career of long. he really was not interested in running for the united states senate. i think he could easily have been elected. at one time the talked about it and thought about it, but he was much more comfortable in alabama. he said why would i want to go to washington and be one of 100 senators when i could be governor of alabama? >> did george wallace used the n-word? >> yes. that would have been pretty common. lyndon johnson used the n-word. it was common among leaders in southern politics privately. there were a couple of times when he slipped up and used it publicly as well, but that was not typical at all. i think much more important

than whether you used the n-word -- lyndon johnson did, but often in a different kind of context -- the real problem was the extent to which this man had been a racial moderate and had been on the trustees of tuskegee university in the early 1950's. he told someone blacks are going to vote in this day and i want to be on the ground floor. of course, currents of change. that was by the late 1950's. i think the tragedy is that someone who had these empathetic feelings for both black and whites let himself be caught up politically and emotionally in the racial currents of the 1960's. yes, there was a time it was pretty nasty business, i think. >> right here in alabama,

florence, alabama, tina. you are on "the contenders." >> hello. i enjoyed mr. carter's book. i wanted to ask a question about mr. george wallace. is his shooter still in prison? did they gas him or was he shot? >> arthur bremer was the very mentally disturbed young man who shot governor wallace. they actually wanted to shoot president nixon, but he could not get close enough to president nixon. he essentially was released. he is now, after many years -- i cannot remember the exact date -- >> 2007. >> i remember i was approached in 1999 about a statement for his parole hearing.

he was turned down at that time. it is only in the last four years after all those years that he has been released. >> let's go back to 1965. george wallace is governor. he is living here at this governor's mansion in montgomery, alabama. reverend martin luther king had been pastor of the dexter avenue baptist church, which is one block from the alabama state capital. there are marches from selma to montgomery. very quickly, dr. carter, why are these marches happening and what were their effect? >> the broader context was a voter registration effort on the part of african-americans. there were a whole series of these violent incidents. there was an assault on some demonstrators in marion, alabama in which one young man was killed by a state trooper. that was really the triggering episode they began to talk about some way to demonstrate

how angry and frustrated they were. there was the first attempt to march from selma to montgomery. that turned out to be a disaster, in some ways, at least nationally or governor wallace because there were television cameras there. violence does not happen unless it is on television, at least in terms of the great impact it had. john lewis and others attempted to walk from brown's chapel in selma across the bridge towards montgomery. they were met by the alabama state troopers. >> under the orders of governor wallace? >> under the orders of governor wallace. it was never clear what those orders were, but they stopped them. they thought it meant stop them by any means. you had a bunch of deputies who

were anxious to do a little head-cracking. that is what happened. >> in just a second, we are going to show you some newreels from 1965 and show you some of the news about those marches from selma, which is 100 or so miles from where we sit now in montgomery. then we are going to introduce you to george wallace's daughter, peggy wallace kennedy. she is inside the mansion. here is the 1965 newreel. >> selma sprang overnight from an obscure southern town to the front pages of newspapers. this church was headquarters for the negro drive. the right to vote. this is where martin luther king came to lend his support to the campaign. from selma's 13,000 negros, only a few more than 300 negroes have been registered at the polls. one group set out to march to the capital at montgomery. the procession was broken up violently by state troopers and deputies.

dr. king led another contingent through the town. ♪ this time, there is no violence. the 1000 negroes and 400 white ministers and a civil-rights workers reached the end of the bridge where the state troopers stood. there were ordered to turn back. ♪ dr. king confers with the police as the marchers hold their ground. he asks that they be allowed to pray. there are a few minutes of mounting tension. the request to pray is granted

-- the request to pray is granted and they kneeled in the street. the march finally gets under way as dr. martin luther king addresses the crowd at the starting point. twice before the marchers had been turned back by state troopers, now they march under a federal court order and with protection of national guard units and federal troops -- 3000 men. there are 2300 marchers in line. half of highway 80 is closed to traffic. the marchers have been ordered to reduce their numbers to 300, a measure designed for their safety. ♪ there are a few isolated flare ups between whites and negroes, but otherwise the demonstration is peaceful. the first day the marchers tramp a little over 7 miles.

they wanted to present a petition to governor george wallace. >> you are now looking at a picture of the conclusion of the third selma to montgomery march. it finished up on dexter avenue right in front of the state capital. the dexter avenue baptist church where dr. martin luther king pastored in the 1950's is located a block from the state capital. recently, c-span took some video of the same site. this picture was taken about a month or so ago. it is about two miles north of where we are now. we are, right now, at the governor's mansion in montgomery, alabama. we are inside the foyer. we are joined by george wallace's daughter, peggy wallace kennedy. we played that newreel from 1965. what are your memories? you lived in this house at the time.

>> yes, i was here. i was 15 years old. i can remember what went on and everything. of course, at that time i did not really have an opinion, but i did go to selma in 2009 and marched across edmund pettus bridge. even back in 1965, i knew that their cause was just and i was able to walk across that bridge with my husband and children. >> what was life like here in the governor's mansion? >> it is a great house. when we moved in, my mother made it a home. >> lurleen. >> yes. she made it a home. we had a lot of happy times here. we came from a small town and moved to the big city, to this wonderful house that my mother

made a home. it was wonderful. it really was a wonderful place to live. >> how where were you of your father's reputation outside of alabama, some of the controversial things people said about him? >> i was not aware of that. i was just trying to live a normal life, if you can imagine. my mother was the kind of person that tried to keep us as normal as we could be, a normal life. school and that kind of thing. i really was not aware. >> did you as a child of the governor have a state trooper followed you around all the times or were you free to come and go as you wanted? >> we were free to come and go as we wanted. before i could drive, i had a trooper take me to school. after that, i was on my own.

>> how often was your father around? he was running alabama, he was running for president throughout your childhood. >> he was in and out, but i grew up in a political family. it was normal for me to not see him often. when you do not know anything any different, it is ok. my mother was gone a lot, too. >> peggy wallace kennedy here in the foyer of the governor's mansion in montgomery, alabama. these steps pretty meaningful. a couple of different incidences on these steps. let's begin with santa. >> i believe this was 1970 or 1971. it was 1971. my father dressed up like santa claus and i sat on his knee.

that is a picture i will always cherish. >> what was he like behind closed doors? what was he like as a dad? >> he was busy. he was always really busy. he ate fast. he walked fast. but he was a wonderful dad when you could get with him, you know. the time you had with him, you had to get the quality time and that was fine, too, because we were used to that. >> something else important happened on the steps. what was that? when you got married. >> we got married. also, when we first moved in here, my brother and i slid down the banister into a tour group. my mother was very angry about that. i got married and had my wedding reception here. >> we would be remiss if you did not talk a little bit more

about your mother, lurleen wallace, or governor wallace. how did she get elected governor? >> i think the people just loved her. >> was voting for your dad? >> well, i think that probably he thought so. when she was elected, she certainly let him know who with the governor, i can assure you. >> what happened to her? >> she had cancer and died in may of 1968. she spent 15 months in office. >> after that, between 1968 and 1971 when your father was reelected, or 1970 when he was reelected -- moved back in in 1971 -- what did your father do? >> he remarried in 1971. we moved back in. there is a little apartment in the back of the governor's mansion. i married in 1973, so i was

only here for two years. >> between 1968-1970, where did you move too? >> we had a home that my mother had bought. it was in southern montgomery. >> was he practicing law or running for president? >> he was running. that is what he was doing. >> we have your husband and your son over here. if we could just turn the camera over and show them very quickly so we can wave at them over there. tell us about your husband, mark kennedy. >> we have been married for 38 years. he has spent 22 years in public service. he retired from the alabama supreme court in 1999. he is now a state chairman of the democratic party. my youngest son is a history major at the university of alabama. our oldest son is serving in

afghanistan right now. >> peggy wallace kennedy, has anyone played up the irony of a wallace marrying a kennedy? >> yes, they have. when we got engaged, senator ted kennedy wrote my father a letter saying he was really glad that the kennedys and the wallaces could finally get together. i have that letter. >> peggy will be joining us a little later in the program. thank you for spending a few minutes with us. we will work our way back out to the set. we will be joined by joe reed, the chairman of the alabama democratic conference, along with our other guests. wallace biographer, dan carter. the next call is from houston. joe, you are on the air. oh, we are talking to joe, the caller. sorry about that. go ahead, joe from houston.

>> i have a question. had george wallace not been shot in 1972, would he have run as a third-party candidate? i have another question. in 1976 if he had defeated jimmy carter in florida, how far would he have gone in the democratic nomination process? >> the third party in 1972 and what could have happened in 1976. >> in 1972, of course, he was shot and severely wounded. he did go to the democratic convention, but it is pretty clear his health suffered from being shot. he was not a serious factor in 1972. in 1976, americans have a pretty short life span toward politicians. everybody kept talking about

the relationship between governor wallace's campaign and president roosevelt, who, of course, campaigned from a wheelchair and was president in a wheelchair. the difference was that in the 1930's there was an agreement on the part of the media that he would never be photographed in a wheelchair. most americans simply did not realize how severely crippled he had been by polio. in 1976, every single moment the cameras were on. there were a couple of incidences, one in which he was dropped. it really emphasized the fact that he was in a wheelchair. even apart from that, one of the things that make governor wallace so effective was his feisty, bantam-rooster kind of bravado that he had.

he did not walk across the stage, he strutted across the stage, often with his hands up in a boxing position. he used to be a boxer. in a wheelchair, it was not possible to do that. >> now we want to introduce you to dr. joe reed who is chairman of the alabama democratic conference. he also works for the alabama education association. dr. reed, what is your first memory of george wallace? >> the first memory i have of george wallace was back in 1958. i had just come from korea and george wallace was running for governor. it was a candidate for governor at that time. of course joe patterson won. it was 1958 when i first heard of him. >> do you remember what the memory is? >> he was very vocal. at that time, he did not have

anything that any other southern politician had at that time. all were running against the supreme court decision in 1954. they all said they were going to maintain segregation. they all claimed that they could do what the law insisted that they could not do. they all insisted they could get around the law. at that particular time he was not much different from the rest of them. >> what was your life like in alabama in 1958? >> like most other black folks in the south, and to some extent, in this country. for example, segregation, and even though the supreme court had ruled in brown v. the board

of education, for all practical purposes, alabama was still fighting that position. we were all mindful of strom thurmond's decision in 1948. blacks were more and more sensitized to that. the montgomery bus boycott had occurred. blacks had achieved a great victory there. things were looking up. >> were you able to vote in 1958? >> 1958 -- i was able to vote in 1958. i was from conecuh county, a small county between montgomery and mobile. blacks were not considered a threat then. veterans did not have a problem getting registered to vote in 1958 in conecuh county.

because they were not a threat. there was a sheriff john brock, who took on the establishment. he went out and help blacks get registered to vote. this was before 1958. he died in 1956. before 1958, there were efforts to get blacks ready to vote. blacks did not constitute a threat. they were captive votes more than anything else. at that particular time, being a veteran, that was not a major problem, getting registered to vote. >> dr. reed, what did you do at the alabama education association? >> i am the associate secretary at the alabama education association. that's the teachers' union. i have been privileged to serve that organization since 1964.

i came over from the black association in 1964. the alabama state teachers association -- there were 11 southern states that had dual associations in the south from virginia to texas. i came on as executive secretary at that time. in 1969 we merged and i have been there for 47 years. >> let's see this video of george wallace. >> john will come, unwanted, warranted for intrusion. >> this afternoon, following a series of threats and statements, the presence of

alabama national guardsman was required on the university of alabama to carry out the final quarter of the united states district court of the northern district of alabama. that order called for the admission of two fairly qualified young alabama residents who happen to have been born negro. >> what do you remember about that incident in 1963? >> we were glad to see president kennedy on. he was very simple. we always thought he was going to lose. he had lost races before that time, particularly in 1959 and 1960, when he had the confrontation with jerry frank johnson. a lot of folks forget the civil rights deal in 1967, that particular civil-rights deal,

which came under president eisenhower, allows the president to appoint a commission to come in and investigate discrimination. because blacks in tuskegee, alabama could not get rights to vote, the committee came and did an investigation. george wallace refused to turn over records to them. george frank johnson jr. was the presiding judge. he ordered it turned over to the civil-rights commission so they could complete their investigation. that was one of the early times george wallace misled the voters again in alabama, thinking he could do things he could not do. >> kerry in west virginia,

welcome to the program. >> i would like to thank c-span for showing us the governor's mansion. i would also like to know about his relationship with j. edgar hoover. how was wallace monitored and did he have an opinion of hoover? >> about his relationship with j. edgar hoover and whether or not he was monitored? >> not really. not in the sense that subversives were. governor wallace constantly praised mr. hoover and relied upon him, particularly for information about the so-called links between civil rights activists and communists. hoover was always leery of wallace, in part because i do not think he could control him.

as a result, hoover always told his men to keep hands-off. as a result, there was a distant relationship between the two of them. >> dan carter is the author of this book. look at the picture on the cover of the book. that is from the inaugural address of 1963. the state capital, two miles from where we are right now. randall in stockton, calif., how're you doing? >> as the son of a civil rights leader who came across in 1963, i want to know why he would not let the rest of his counterparts cross the bridge? and when they did, there was national outrage.

the bottom line is, was governor wallace in cahoots with the congress to conspire for us not to come across the bridge? i want to know the answer to that. >> i did not get his question. >> did you hear his question? >> yes. let's go ahead. >> if the marchers crossed the bridge, regardless of the television cameras, and there are always television cameras set up there, it would be a face-saving loss for governor wallace. he made it clear he was not going to allow it. he told al lingo, who was in the state troopers, and he also told major mccloud -- no, cloud, who was in charge of the

troopers at the time, that there were not to be allowed to march. they took them very seriously. at that point, there were ready to go with teargas, mounted men from a posse. and they did not. >> governor wallace was more concerned, at that time, about showing his fellow travelers, his supporters, his friends, that he was going to make the black folks behave. i am going to stop them at all costs. if he had allowed the march to continue, a lot of things would probably have never happened, including his chances in the 1965 voting rights act. i am sure other stations carry it too, they showed people being beaten in selma.

other things happened during that same time. widows to white ministers were killed. i forget their names. and when the white clergy also got involved in this, they started demanding that something happened. they started coming into alabama. when the white clergy got involved, the white house got even more upset. those things, in my opinion, were the major factors in terms of responding to wallace's resistance to the march. if he had just left it alone, it would have turned out differently. >> what was your level of activity in the civil-rights movement in the 1960's? >> i was not at the bridge.

this was in 1965. i was with the alabama state teachers association. we supported the movement, provided resources for the movement, were actively involved -- our local chapter in alabama was led by reverend reese. they came to the alabama state teachers association and we went to washington to elicit help from the national education association to get involved and ensure that our members got the right to vote. >> we showed to the club from 1963, the school house incident. here is george wallace in 1967 talking about that incident and a little bit on the new riots

that were occurring after it. >> i said we are further obligated to oppose any where we find them. a little over three years ago, we stood at the university of alabama. we oppose the enemies of freedom. to use that stand to say that those in high places in washington cannot reconstitute. we warned of the coming lawlessness that would sweep our nation and adversely affect our citizens. >> the worst race violence since los angeles two years ago. at least 24 persons are killed. more than 1800 wounded. despite patrolling by city and

state police, millions of dollars of property damage is done. cleanouts closed shops in the ghetto districts. any vehicle is a target for the mob. two days after beginning, police are augmented by national guardsmen. the governor terms the rebellion open rioting. fire from open windows kills policemen, a fire captain shot in the back, and several bystanders. [intense, dramatic music playing] scores of police, troopers, guardsmen, and civilians are wounded. officials said the strikers, some believe it not to be residents, used guns stolen from a rifle factory. even machine guns were used. because of widespread looting, the emergency food centers are

set out to supply milk, bread, and cereal to terrorize residents. looters are dealt with swiftly. a 10:00 to 6:00 curfew is clamped on. while new york struggles to restore peace and order, it spreads to nearby suburban towns, where a policeman is beaten to death and violence is reported. new jersey, a state under siege. >> and back live in montgomery, alabama. dan carter, the race riots of the 1967-1968 period, what effect they have on toward wallace's campaign for governor? >> you can get some idea of what effect it had. much of it is hyperbolic. a lot of the claims that were made were extraordinarily

serious. all of the talk about snipers was pretty much disapproved. a lot of shooting. a lot of violence. even the music, everything about it, gives the impression that the nation is under siege. although there is absolutely no connection between the race riots, which had to do with poverty, had to do with the conditions in the inner cities -- in the minds of many americans, the civil rights movement and the rights of the 1960's are all blended together. they are rebellion against authority. and the distinction of one, the civil rights movement is going to be non-violent, rely on non- violence, and the other is this spattering of outburst of violence. it is quite different. the connection is there.

>> what do you remember about april 4, 1968? >> that was the day dr. king was shot. i remember going by dr. levi watkins' office at alabama state university in montgomery. i walked in his office and he said, dr. king has been shot. that is what i remember. i was also involved in the city movement as another effort on the part of this growing resistance on the part of black folks and the unwillingness to continue to accept segregation. you had the sit in movement, the freedom rides, all of these things where blacks are demanding that now, and of course would be riots taking place in certain places, which dr. king always condemned, he saw this as a threat to white

well-being. >> did you ever meet george wallace? >> yes. i met him many times. i do not remember the first time i met governor wallace, i really do not. i do remember him speaking to the alabama teachers association. and that may have been the first time i shook his hand. he signed a bill. this was in the 1970's when we did that. i was always very critical of governor wallace. he said to me one time, "you have always been critical of me but you were never mad at me." we had a bill we are trying to get him to sign. it was to register people to vote any time. the voter registrars across the state of alabama were against

it. we ask him to sign the bill. he went on and signed the bill. yes, we talked many times in the last years. >> we will get on to that later in our program. >> i wondered if mr. carter could comment on how the racial politics of rage in the 1950's and 1960's may have morphed into the current hard right stance of the tea party on issues like gay marriage and illegal immigration. this might not be surrogate issues for people whose racial attitudes have not changed, but it is not in fashion to speak publicly about that. >> wow.

that is really a tough one to draw a direct connection. we do not have the same kind of language about race that we once had. weekends off all we want to about political correctness. the fact is, it is politically incorrect to engage in any kind of racist language. but we do have this long tradition in the united states, in this very cantankerous democracy, of selecting scapegoats, groups that seem to represent a violation of what the cultural norms are that a family felt. -- that are so profoundly felt. whether that is the issue of prayer in the schools, the issue of gay marriage, in economic hard times, whether it is the issue of immigrants and

so-called job challenges that are threatening the jobs of americans, there is a connection in the sense that we want an enemy. that enemy may be african americans at some point, it may be other groups. unfortunately, it is one of the darker sides of american history. >> george wallace ran for president in 1964. in 1968, he captured five states and 46 electoral votes. he also ran in 1972 and 1976. next call is from tampa bay, florida. hello, mike. mike from tampa bay, please go ahead. >> i had a cathartic experience tonight as a young american watching these old clips being played. it gives me hope to see how divergent cultures have come together in the clips and a great sense of hope to see how our political differences might be able to be bridged today. >> has politics changed in

alabama? >> yes. politics in alabama has changed. one thing we have to keep in mind -- racism, i do not think, as martin luther king jr. said, the white of goodwill in this country do not realize the depth of racism. all of these things are still part of dyed in the wool racism that exists today not only in alabama but in other states of the country. that is part of the question that the gentleman raised. >> he was talking about how politics have changed. what is the alabama democratic conference? >> they were started in 1964 for the purpose of helping john f. kennedy. blacks were shut out of the

democratic party in alabama at that time. we were still struggling and had not got the right to vote until the mid-1960's. blacks were trying to get a voice in the democratic party. the alabama democratic conference was set up for that reason. they set out to do two things -- to get white political leaders' attention, that was one of the things, and also to unify the black vote so that we could, what we call, make white politicians behave. it was that kind of thing that we were working on. that is what the democratic conference was about and is still about today. >> 1968 was george wallace's best run for president.

here is part of his announcement. >> one of the issues confronting the people is the breakdown of law and order. both national parties are apologizing today and saying it comes about as a result of welfare payments, job opportunities, education, etc. the average man on the street in this country knows that it comes about because of activists, militants, revolutionaries, anarchists, and communists. if i were the president, i would give my strong moral support to the local police officers of this country and local law enforcement and say, you enforce the law, and i can tell you that if i were the president of the united states, you could walk on the streets in any section of washington, d.c. at any time and i would make that possible if i had to bring 30,000 troops in washington and put one every 30 feet with a bayonet.

we are going to make this safe for the citizens of washington, d.c. it is a sad moment that in the nation's capital, you are fearful of walking out of this hotel. this is not race i'm talking about. every time i mention this, they say this has racial overtones. when does it come to have racial overtones to stand for law and order? newsmen have indicated so long that the people in our state who defended the right of the state to determine the policies of their local school systems believe in separation. that is, racial separation. we have had more mingling and association of the races in alabama than i would say that any large industrial state above the mason-dixon line. now when you talk about segregation, we have supported, in the past, a separate school system. but as far as working and mingling and living close

together, we have done more of that than the people of any other region in the country. one reason we have had more peace in our region has been that people of all races are needed and wanted in alabama. so i still stand for the right of the people of alabama, through their elected representatives, to determine the policies of their school system. >> joe reed, we want to get your reaction to governor wallace speaking in 1968. >> if he is talking about desegregating public education, it is because of jerry frank m. johnson, who was the architect, who did more than anybody else. then we had the lee vs. macon decision, which accounted for 100 schools. it cannot be attributed to

anything governor wallace did. it is a tribute to the fact that the federal government and black leaders, the naacp, and other organizations, went out and risk everything else to desegregate public education. >> dan carter, when you hear the words law and order, welfare, and militants, are those code words? >> yes, absolutely. this is -- [sirens sounding] they do not like this here, but television plays a critical role in the political process. you are aware that everywhere you're saying is being captured on film. you have to be careful. it is the sense of whatever you want to call it, political correctness. you have to be careful about how you say it. you learn a different language. it is the language in which you, without ever referring specifically to race, you talk

about race. nobody was better at it than governor wallace. whenever he wanted to complain about the federal government enforcing housing non- discrimination, he did not talk about them making african americans live close to you, he talked about blue-eyed chinamen. they're going to make them come into your neighborhood. and everybody knew exactly what he was talking about. >> 1968, richard nixon, 301 electoral vote. hubert humphrey, 191 electoral votes. hubert humphrey won 13 states plus d.c. george wallace won nearly 10 million votes and five states. who won the black vote in 1968? >> it was hubert humphrey. >> do you remember who you voted for? >> not only that, i was co- chair for the national committee of educators to support hubert

humphrey. that was the first time that blacks went to the democratic national convention. i was privileged enough to go because the chairman had arranged that. >> quite the wild convention. >> yes, that was the convention of 1968. i was a pro-humphrey person. i knew him personally. we achieved what we wanted to achieve to get him nominated. we did not succeed in getting him elected. >> we are out in front of the governor's mansion in montgomery, alabama, where george wallace lived for 20% of his life. 16 years he lived here, two miles south of downtown montgomery. this is our 12th week of "the contenders." we have two weeks left. jordan, you are on c-span. >> i have a question and a comment. i began my address in politics

-- my interest in politics when i was 10 years old area. i worked through the american independent party in pennsylvania as a volunteer. even though he did not have a great deal of support in pennsylvania, he had a strong base of support in the philadelphia area. my question for dr. carter is, what was his relationship as far as richard nixon? i know that the alabama republicans have backed him during the civil rights crisis. pretty much congressman bill dickinson of opelika was a strong wallace supporter. he was one of the early goldwater republicans in alabama. i was wondering, what did wallace think of richard nixon and did he ever endorsed richard nixon for president? >> dan carter.

>> no, he did not think much of richard nixon. particularly after 1968, because in 1970, when governor wallace was running, his wife had died in office, al brewer had become governor and then he was going to run against former governor wallace. richard nixon put $400,000 in secret cash into the brewer campaign. it did not stay a secret very long. moreover, governor wallace always suspected that richard nixon was trying to destroy him, which he was, because nixon saw wallace as his greatest threat in 1972. he made every effort that he could and certainly governor wallace was aware of that. >> in your book, "the politics of rage," in the 1972 campaign, george wallace started strong before he was shot, correct? >> absolutely. he got more votes -- by the end

of the day he was shot, he had more votes than any other democratic candidate at the time. i do not think he would have got the nomination, but it was a tremendous problem for the democratic party. >> after he was shot in 1972, richard nixon went to see him, correct? >> that is correct. >> who else went to see him? >> just about everybody. hubert humphrey went to see him, george mcgovern went to see him, ethel kennedy went to see him. in her case, i think it was a sense of compassion after what had happened. in other cases, it was the politics of it. they realized that they would like to have his support. nixon did more than go and see him go. he also manipulated the shooting of governor wallace by trying to blame -- trying to link the man who had shot him to george mcgovern. >> joe reed, do you remember

when george wallace was shot? >> i learned of it at my office. my sympathy went out to the wallace family as well as everybody else. it was one thing you did not want to happen. i remember it very well. i went to the democratic convention in 1972 where george wallace was. he was trying to make his way. when he was shot and paralyzed, that pretty much ended his political career as a presidential candidate. on the other hand, he continued to run for office and hold office in alabama as governor. of course, after the shooting, and after he was paralyzed for so long, you might get to that later on, but i think that is

where he really got his political conversion. i'll hold that. >> we will get into that. governor wallace served as governor of alabama 1963-1967, 1971-1979, and finally from 1983-1987. he went ahead and ran in the 1976 campaign. how long did that last? >> he made it through several primaries. the problem was not only the difficulty of campaigning from a wheelchair, but there was another southerner, jimmy carter. carter did not have some of the baggage that governor wallace had. moreover, he was running in the aftermath of watergate. this was when religion really gets into the campaign. and he ran as a highly moral person who would restore moral integrity to the white house. remember "i'll never lie to you" jimmy carter.

and in so many different ways, his own progressive record as the governor of georgia approved the better candidate thing governor wallace. and the big example, the primary in florida, where governor wallace lost to jimmy carter. that pretty much finished him. >> pensacola, florida. thank you for holding. you're on "the contenders." >> i remember as a 10-year-old boy when george wallace got shot, a very devastating day to me as a youngster, to be honest to you. my question is when governor wallace was running for president in the 1970's, who was his endorsements? you know how presidential

people have their money backers. how did he raise money to run for office? the other question i have -- i know he has a son who is in political office. does he have any endeavors to run for governor at all? >> there was some "big" money, but by and large, george wallace, you can like him or dislike him, but he was an extraordinarily successful fundraiser of small contributions. he got millions of dollars in small amounts -- $5, $10, $20. he was never really backed by the big money individuals. i will let dr. reed talk about george wallace, jr. >> he ran for state senator. he is his son. the democratic conference endorsed him.

of course, helater on switch to the republican party and we opposed him. overall, he is a nice fellow. >> he is currently a republican, right? >> he is currently a republican. >> peggy wallace kennedy is the honorary chairperson of the democratic party. i think that is what she told us earlier. >> her husband is the chair of the democratic party of the state of alabama. and he is doing a great job. bottom line is that george wallace, jr. did run for the state treasury. in fact, the day we endorsed

him, george wallace, sr. came to the alabama democratic conference convention. the rest is history. >> we want to show you one more ad from one more piece of video from 1968. this is an ad that george wallace was running. >> why are more and more americans turning to governor wallace? follow us across town. >> as president, i shall within the law turn back the absolute control of of the public school system to the people of the states. >> why are more and more americans turning to governor wallace? open a little business and see what might happen. >> as president, i will stand up for your local police and firemen in protecting your safety and property. >> why are more and more americans turning to governor wallace? watch your hard earned tax dollars sail away to anti- american countries. >> as president, i will halt the giveaway of our american dollars and products to countries that aid our enemies.

>> give him your support. >> our next call comes from tony in pleasantville, n.y. tony, you are on "the contenders." >> i was 21 years old in 1968 and just out of the navy. i am 65 now, but over the years i supported george wallace, ross perot, ralph nader, and currently a ron paul supporter. i went to a rally in 1968 at madison square garden. george wallace and his vice presidential candidate, curtis lemay. a 21-minute standing ovation by a sellout crowd. during the presentation, there were some hecklers way up in the far reaching seats, about six or seven of them.

you could see the lights from the cameras. when the event was over, the local news -- they only had three networks in those days -- the only thing they reported were the three hecklers. outside madison square garden, there were 50 mounted police expecting riots by the people. what i learned at this rally is how unfairly the media treats third-party candidates. c-span was not around in 1968, but if c-span was around in 1968, george wallace would have done better. in 1972, if he was not shot, he had a good chance at winning. >> tony, let's leave it there. dan carter, that was the american independent party george wallace was running on. what is the role of the media in 1968? >> congratulations. you are the first person i have talked to who was at that rally, which was a pretty remarkable rally.

there is a lot of film footage, which we were able to use in a documentary we did on governor wallace. although i think you are right, most of the time the media tends to dismiss a third party candidates. part of it is they actually like confrontation. there were about 20 demonstrators shouting "sieg heil" and giving hitler salutes. that is colorful news. that is often what these media were as the speeches themselves -- they were not going to show a 21 minute ovation. you are exactly right. he received a 21 minute ovation. >> dr. reed, it looked like you were about to add something. we will move to our next call from north carolina. good evening. >> i just had a question about george wallace's pre- legislative activities before he

got involved with the legislature of alabama. was he not a lawyer for some people involved in the assassination of attorney- general john patterson and the phenix city gambling and things of that nature? >> no. that does not ring any bells at all. >> dr. reed, if george wallace was alive today, would he be a republican or a democrat? >> i think he would be a democrat. i really do. he would just -- i do not think he liked the republicans. out of all his running, he was always a democrat in alabama. i think he would have stayed a democrat. i do not think he would have changed. >> i do not know. i think it is clear that his

heart in some ways with the policies of the democratic party, particularly economic policies. on the other hand, he was pretty hostile towards the national government and its activities. it is possible that may have led him -- certainly running for office in alabama, he would be running as a republican. that is the only way he would get elected. >> george wallace was elected in 1970 and in 1974 to the gubernatorial office here in alabama. he ran for president in 1972 and 1976. in 1982, he said i have been wrong about the race issue. >> i think that after he was shot -- governor wallace's entire political career for the last few years was based, embedded, sanctioned, guided by race. i do not he lost the race to

john patterson because the n- word was used too much. john patterson would have defeated wallace anyway, because his daddy was shot trying to clean up phenix city. governor wallace was not going to beat him either way. john patterson was a prosecutor. he knew how to go after things. >> go back to 1982. >> your question was whether or not -- >> george wallace said he was wrong about the race issue. >> i think he meant that. he felt he had been punished. he had been in a wheelchair over a quarter of a century. you have to look back and say, if you are a christian -- and he said he was, why am i here?

why am i going through this? i really believe that he went through this conversion. george wallace is one of the few politicians who had run on segregation platforms that publicly repudiated segregation. he said "i was wrong." >> in 1982 after that, did you vote for him for governor? >> i voted for the straight democratic ticket. straight out. the alabama republican congress did not endorse george wallace. we supported george mcmillan. george mcmillan lost in the primary. there were blacks running for county commission, blacks running for the legislature, blacks running for everything.

we always vote the straight democratic ticket because there was no republican out there. somebody raised the question is the vote about race, live and let the. one is the rising sun, and one is the setting sun, and that is what happened. >> that is what happened. the alabama democratic conference never endorsed wallace. >> we are in front of the governor's mansion in montgomery, alabama where george wallace lived. good evening. >> i went in the marine corps in 1970. i left erie, pennsylvania, got down to the south, and was amazed at how southerners were treating everybody. i saw the movie "the help"

which was a picture of what the south was like. the ways that the blacks were subjugated was phenomenal. it was a terrific movie. another movie that has to be mentioned is "waiting for superman." you hear about how the teachers' unions are giving this idea of what is happening. i teach as a substitute teacher in california. the democrats were in control of the south that caused all of this -- the deaths in mississippi, the complete destruction of society. i looked at detroit, i've looked all over. there is joe reed. how much of his retirement after

47 years as a teacher -- if you look at what the teacher unions have done to this country. [coughing] john. >> you are getting a little off topic. we appreciate your call. we will get an answer for you very quickly. speak about the education association and respond to his comments very quickly. >> the alabama education association as it exists now is a combination of the black and white teachers coming together in 1969. for 42 years we have been very successful, bringing in the maids and janitors into our association, protecting tenure, defending our members' rights in court. we suffered some setbacks in the last election, but we are still fighting for the right of

teachers in alabama. it is one of the most effective associations in the country. >> i can tell you one thing -- if george wallace was still active in politics, he would not be attacking teachers or the teachers' unions. >> no. >> he thought it was important. i think it is a reflection of how there are many similarities between the kind of conservatism george wallace helped to create and today, in which suddenly teachers who are really not paid that much, who really do not get vast pensions suddenly become another one of the scapegoats of society. >> governor wallace would not have done that. >> that caller also mention the movie "the help." did you see the movie? ok, what was your impression of it? >> it is a recreation of what it was like in this world in which black and white, and particularly middle-class and upper-middle-class southerners, how they had connection to blacks, but it was always in a subordinate position. i think the film does a good job of explaining that relationship.

>> the city of montgomery, alabama -- rosa parks began her bus protest here. the jefferson davis white house is here. dr. martin luther king preached at the dexter avenue king memorial baptist church, which is one block from the state capital where george wallace announced on january 14, 1963, "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." it is laid out. you can see a lot of these different exhibits here in the city as well. the next call for our guests comes from poughkeepsie, new york. nick, you are on "the contenders." >> she told him not to do it? >> you are on "the contenders." ok, we are going to move on from nick. we will move south to georgia. john, you are on "the contenders." >> my question is for mr. carter. getting back to the 1972

election and his choice of curtis lemay as his running mate -- i was just curious as to what motivated him to make that selection and what their relationship was? thank you very much. >> that was in 1968? >> he thought that general lemay would bring in a lot of a veteran voters. in the 1960's, there was still a huge number of veterans from world war ii and korea -- even vietnam. he thought putting a respectable general like curtis lemay on the ticket would help them draw a lot of these voters in. it would also draw in the hardliners who wanted to suppress the war in vietnam, even though governor wallace was sometimes a little ambivalent. i think that is the main reason.

it turned out to be a disaster, but that is another story. >> in 1972 and 1976 he did not get close to nominating a vice- presidential candidate. >> some of his people opposed chandler because they opposed -- he had welcomed or at least had gone along with bringing jackie robinson into baseball. chandler was the commissioner of baseball. so when they brought jackie robinson in, chandler was with that. some of wallace's opponents did not want chandler on the ticket because of that. he was out of kentucky, of course. >> joe, do you remember your last conversation with george wallace? >> i was trying to think about that. >> we want to reintroduce george wallace's daughter, peggy wallace kennedy. she joins us from inside the mansion. mrs. kennedy, you have been

listening to our conversation. what have you heard? >> well, i have heard a lot about my father. >> mrs. kennedy? go ahead. now we can hear you. >> well, i have heard a lot about my father. i have enjoyed reminiscing a little bit. my father, to me in my heart, was not a racist. he was a politician. he is the man that i want to remember and i want my children to remember. this is a man that, in his later years, reached out for forgiveness and received that forgiveness. >> do you think that he did have some racist tendencies in the 1960's?

>> in my heart, i do not think that. i think he was just a politician. that does not make it right what he did. like i said, that the man i want to remember -- one who reached out for forgiveness and received that forgiveness. >> mrs. kennedy, can you tell us about the day your father was shot? where were you? >> i was in college. i attended troy university. i was sitting in a classroom and i remember looking at the clocks. i was in the classroom alone waiting for a class. i remember looking at that particular time. when the class was over, one of my friends came to me and felt like maybe i had already heard that my father had been shot and he was ok. she said, your father is ok. he has been shot, but he must be ok.

i said i did not know that. i was brought here to the mansion and flown straight to maryland. >> we were talking about you a little bit earlier. you are the honorary chair of the alabama democratic party. correct? >> no. my husband is the chair of the alabama democratic party. i stand by him and help him when i can. i do make some speeches at alabama democratic party functions. >> your brother is now a republican, correct? >> yes, he is, but i still love him very much. [laughter] >> if your father were alive today, would he be a democrat or republican? >> i think he would be a democrat. >> if your father were alive today, who would he have voted for in 2008?

>> well, i think he possibly could have voted for president obama. i know that he would have been proud that i endorsed president obama and i think he would have been very proud that i marched across the edmund pettus bridge in 2009 with john lewis. >> peggy wallace kennedy wrote a piece for cnn the day after the election, november 3, 2008. if you are interested, you can go to cnn and read it. it is about visiting her father's grave and having an obama bumper sticker on her car. albany, ga. -- you are on "the contenders." go ahead. >> just a couple of things real quick, i know my time is limited. number one, selma is only 40-50 miles from montgomery.

i grew up in selma at the time of the march. my question is for mr. carter. at the time of the march, rumors were running rampant. a woman was giving marchers a ride back in her car when she was ambushed. it was rumored for many years that one of the marchers she was giving a ride was an undercover fbi agent. i wondered if he have ever heard of this rumor. thank you very much. >> it was not her passenger, it was one of the individuals in the car that did the shooting, was an undercover agent, and it was his testimony that made it possible for the immediate arrest of the people who did the shooting even though nothing much as usual came of it. that was the situation. the person she was taking back, and i am embarrassed to say i have forgotten his name, faked being shot. he fell under her when she was

shot. the car wreck and she fell on top of him. he was covered in blood. they stopped and realized she was dead and thought he was, too. >> in your book "the politics of rage," 1972 shooting, arther bremer, there is a discussion about potential conspiracies with the nixon campaign to have shot governor wallace. jack nelson, former bureau chief of the l.a. times, pulitzer-prize winner, came down and investigated it. what was the conclusion? >> i do not think so. i do not believe -- richard nixon and his entourage tried to exploit the shooting. but arthur bremer -- we have an awful lot of information, including his diaries he wrote during this time. it is clear that this was a very mentally disturbed young man. >> peggy wallace kennedy, after your father was shot, what was his life like as governor and his personal life?

>> of course, he slowed down quite a bit. i think that even though that was such a tragedy for him, i do think that it helped him in a lot of ways to stop and look around and appreciate his family more and appreciate what he had more. unfortunately it had to happen in that way. >> your father was married twice after your mother died, correct? cornelia and lisa taylor? and divorced from both. >> right. >> here at the governor's mansion here in montgomery, alabama -- in the back is a pool.

it was put in as a gift to governor wallace after he was paralyzed because swimming would be good to him and it is in the shape of the state of alabama. dr. reed, do you remember your last conversation with george wallace? >> no, i was trying to. i do remember one of the final statements i had with him -- once he said to me, joe, a lot of people did not believe what i was doing. i believe in segregation because we were taught that way, but i was wrong. that is when he came to folks for forgiveness. i accepted his decision and accepted his statement that he was wrong, because he was one of the few southern politicians ever to repudiate that. in fact, i was invited to his funeral.

i did go to the church where his funeral was. i think as a christian he should have been forgiven and was forgiven. >> peggy wallace kennedy, where are your parents buried? >> they are buried at lee memorial cemetery. they are together. >> is that here in montgomery? >> yes, that is here in montgomery. >> dr. dan carter, how did george wallace change the national conversation? >> because he identified at this mood that was in the very early stages of conservatism. it was made possible not only by his great skills, but by circumstances over which he had no control but was able to exploit. to me, the great tragedy is that here was a person of enormous abilities. he was caught in the time warp that he was. >> "the politics of rage" is the name of dan carter's book. he has been our guest for the last two hours as has joe reed,

the chairman of the alabama democratic conference as well as the executive secretary of the alabama education association. >> associate executive secretary. >> associate executive secretary of the alabama education association. we are very proud to have had join us peggy wallace kennedy, the daughter of george wallace. we thank you all very much. we also want to thank governor robert bentley for opening up his temporary home. it has been wonderful, so thank you governor bentley. we also want to thank the governor's mansion staff and thanks to everybody at the alabama state capitol building for all their help in setting up this "contenders." we are going to leave you with governor wallace in 1986, his last address to the alabama legislature. good night. >> i have climbed my last political mountain, but there are still some personal hills i must climb. but for now, i must take the

rope and pick and hand them off to another climber and say, climb to higher heights. climb on until we reach our peak. then look back and wave at me. i, too, will still be climbing. my fellow alabamians, i bid you a fond and affectionate farewell. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] >> within 90 days, every american soldier and every american prisoner will be out of the jungle, out of their cells, and back, in america where they belong. >> george mcgovern's pledge of the 1972 democratic national

convention came one decade after becoming one of the first to speak out against the vietnam war. he suffered a landslide defeat by president nixon. his brown banking campaign -- ground breaking campaign is featured this week on c-span's "the contenders." from mitchell, s.d., live friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. >> a ceremony held aboard the u.s.s. constitution and the boston harbor. simon winchester, author of "the professor and a madman" became a citizen of. >> i decided to take the necessary 10-question exam. to confess, i got one question long. -- one wrong. i rang her and said, i got one

of the questions wrong. she said, "hopefully not the one about the color of the white house." i got that one. it was america parks and national anthem. i said, "america, the beautiful." >> his latest book, his 21st, now in paperback. watch the rest of the interview tonight on c-span's "q&a." >> on monday, lord justice love the sun started hearing about the culture practices and ethics of the british media. this included parents of murdered schoolgirl and actor hugh grant. prime minister david cameron appointed him to oversee press regulation and governance. this portion of the meeting is 2

hours, 15 minutes. >> i sincerely affirm that the evidence i will give is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. >> your full name, please? >> hugh john mungo grant. >> mr. grant, we've prepared a bundle for you and you'll find, please, under tab 1, your first witness statement, which is dated and signed by you with a statement of truth on 3 november of this year. i invite you to take that to hand, please, and confirm that that is your first statement. >> it is. >> then you gave a second statement, a supplementary witness statement, on 11 november, and again made a statement of truth. >> yes. >> what i'm going to do, mr. grant --

>> before you do anything -- >> yes. >> mr. grant, as with some of the other witnesses, i'm very grateful to you for coming. i am extremely conscious that you are speaking about matters which you would prefer were not deployed in the press, and that that is a difficult decision and a difficult experience for you. i'm conscious of it and i'm grateful to you for assisting the inquiry with your evidence. >> thank you. >> -- to accord you that time. >> thank you very much. >> we're not time limited, mr. grant. we have the whole afternoon. if you want a few minutes off, just say so. you do not have to say "cut." >> i'm sorry to hear that. >> your evidence subdivides, if i may say so, into evidence of fact and evidence of opinion. i'd like to start, please, with the evidence of fact, do you

follow me, before we move on to the opinions. >> yes. >> in relation to your career, everybody, of course, probably knows all about your career, but you made it big, if i can so describe it, with a film in 1994, "four weddings and a funeral", but although you don't say so yourself, you did rather well, i think, with another film which some of us enjoyed in 1987 called as ifce", so it wasn't it's a one-off. you career then took off thereafter. >> well, it was fairly brief, but of course on the back of that success of "four weddings and a funeral", yes, there was a spirit of goodwill. i think the nation liked having

a film that was making -- that was popular and funny and doing very well all over the world. you know, we enjoy the few british cinema successes we get and i got a little blip of positive press on the back of that, yes. >> at that stage, was there any interest in your private life, do you think? >> there was a great deal of interest suddenly in my private life. >> yes? >> particularly beginning at the premiere of that film, when the press became very interested in me and my girlfriend. >> yes. okay, i think we probably remember that premiere. >> yes. >> can i move on to perhaps the darker side. this is paragraph 7 of your witness statement. >> yes. >> i'm not going to cover the

events of july 1995. we're not interested in that. >> i wish you would, in a way, simply because -- am i allowed to break in on you? >> of course, yes. >> just because i think it's an important point that i make in this statement, that all the questioning and campaigning i've done recently about what i see as the abuses of some sections of the british press is emphatically not motivated by the treatment i got when i was arrested in 1995. i say in my statement here i was arrested, it was on public record, i totally expected there to be tons of press, a press storm. that happened, and i have no quarrel with it, none whatsoever. i just thought it's important to make that point. >> fair enough. >> yes. >> the front door was forced off its hinges. it sounds as if it was

professionally done. there was no damage inside the flat; is that correct? >> no damage and nothing was stolen. >> yes. >> this came at the zenith of the sort of press storm around that arrest in los angeles. i was now back in london, holed up in my flat, and i'd managed to get out for the day, or the night -- i can't remember. anyway, when i came back, this flat had been broken into. the front door had been basically just shoved off its hinges. as i say, nothing was stolen, which was weird, and the police nevertheless came around the next day to talk about it, and the day after that a detailed account of what the interior of my flat looked like appeared in one of the british tabloid papers. i can't remember which one at the moment, but it was definitely there, and i remember thinking, "who told them that?" was that the burglar or was that the police? and when i told this story to

tom watson recently, the mp who was writing a book about this kind of thing, he nodded knowingly, saying, "oh yes, that particular method of break- in i've come across with several other people who are victims of a lot of -- in the crosshairs of a lot of the press attention, and it doesn't seem to have been a singular occasion." >> in terms of the logical possibilities, i suppose it's either, in no particular order, a leak from the police or it might be the burglar was acting on the instructions of the press to gain sight of the inside of your flat. we don't know which hypothesis is the correct one. >> well, or both. >> or both. >> i think the most likely scenario is both. >> or, alternatively, a burglar who has found whose flat he's burgled and decided there's

some way he can make some money. whatever. i'm not -- >> fine. fine. but they were very -- you know, this was at a time when there was a lot of press outside all the time, desperate to get in. it was the middle of the summer and i know they were listening. you know, it was right up, four floors up and they could actually hear one or two of the rows i was having at the time, so i know they were desperate to get some kind of access. >> at paragraph 8 and following you deal with various libel actions, all of which were successful. can you assist us, please, with a general idea of how many libel claims we're talking about? >> i don't know. it's been 16, 17 years since "four weddings", since i became of any kind of interest to the tabloid press, and i would imagine that in those 17 years that, i don't know, half a dozen, maybe more, maybe 10. i've got -- my lawyer's over

there. you could ask him. he'd know. >> yes. >> i just mention two here out of those because it would be very boring to go through them all, and in themselves they're not significant, but these two particular examples i think are significant. >> yes. the example you give in paragraph 11, february 2007 -- >> yeah. >> -- the plummy-voiced woman issue. >> mm. >> are you suggesting there that the story must have come from phone hacking? >> well, what i say in this paragraph is that "the mail" on sunday ran an article in february 2007 saying that my relationship with my then girlfriend, jemima khan, was on the rocks because of my persistent late-night flirtatious phone calls with a

plummy-voiced studio executive from warner brothers, and it was a bizarre story, completely untrue, that i sued for libel over and won and damages were awarded, a statement was made in open court. hwo they could come up with a bizarre left-field story, there was not a plummy-voiced executive, but there was a great frind of mine that runs a production company associated with warner brothers. that is the person that rings you. it is always their assistant. this is what she used to do.

she was a nice english girl living in l.a., so we'd have a joke about english stuff. she would leave charming messages that could only be described as "plummy." i cannot think of a considerable source except for those voice messages on my mobile telephone. >> you haven't alleged that before, have you, in the public domain? >> no, but when i was preparing this statement and going through all my old trials and tribulations with the press, i looked at that one again and thought that is weird, and then the penny dropped. >> i think the highest it can be put is, frankly, it's a piece of speculation on your part, isn't it, in relation to this? >> yes, you could -- yes, speculation, okay, but i would love to know -- i mean, i think

mr. caplan, who represents associated, was saying earlier today that he'd like to put in a supplementary statement and -- you know, referring to the things i say today. well, i'd love to hear what the "daily mail's" or the sunday "mail's" explanation for that article is, what that source was, if it wasn't phone hacking. >> okay. i may come back to that, but i'll leave that for the time being. the next is article 12 in the sunday express. the point about this article, and we have it in hg1, internal numbering page 3. ending in 1921, this article was entirely untrue?

an >> it was an article that purported to be written by me and which i hadn't written. nor had i done that thing that, you know, happens a lot in papers, where it's someone talking to someone. i had not even spoken to a journalist. it was completely, as far as i could see, either made up or patched and pasted from previous quotations i might have given in interview. >> right. >> that is why, as i recall, the express lost their case and had to apologize. >> this statement in open court makes precisely that point, that you did not contribute to the article in any way and the express admitted that. >> mm. >> those are the two examples of defamation claims. you also provide examples of privacy claims. >> mm. >> the first one of these over which there was litigation was paragraph 13 of your witness statement, a visit to charing

cross hospital. >> yes. >> details of which it's probably unnecessary to go into, but it did culminate in a claim against the mirror for breach of confidence and you got judgment from mr. justice wright. that's correct, isn't it? >> yes. >> you also complained to the pcc and that claim was upheld, was it not? >> yes, finally, after a lot of effort. i mean, it took months and months. they were very reluctant to do anything. finally, i got a tiny recognition that my complaint had been upheld deep in the newspaper. >> right. >> without referring to what the complaint was about. >> could i take that in stages? the pcc adjudication you will have in the bundle we have prepared for you, under tab 4. >> yes. this will take me hours. >> it won't. >> tab 4. okay, i see, all right.

yes. >> they upheld the privacy complaint but they noted, you'll see in the second paragraph: >> i understand that that's what they wrote. there were questions raised if it fell underthe remit of the pcc. then they upheld that part of the complaint. do you understand? >> yes. >> but i fail entirely to understand how an individual's medical records being appropriated and printed for commercial profit could not come under the remit of the pcc.

if that doesn't come under the remit of the pcc, what the hell is the pcc for? >> i think they were saying it did. >> yes, but why did it take them so long? >> it was other matters they were saying -- they don't identify what those matters were -- that may be outside of the remit, but your essential complaint -- you can see that in the first paragraph of the adjudication, confidential medical information about you was published -- that's the complaint they eventually focused on and they upheld it. do you follow? >> we don't know from this document the date of this adjudication. everybody agrees -- well, you've said, but we can't agree it, that it took a long time but do you know the date? do you remember approximately how long it took? the date isn't on it. >> my recollection is that it's about three months, but -- >> doubtless somebody will be able to tell us at some stage. >> yes. >> don't worry about it. >> there's another similar

complaint, or rather issue, and you touched on this in paragraph 15 of your statement. it's much more recent. it involves a visit to the chelsea and westminster hospital in march of this year. >> yes. >> first of all, mr. grant, are you happy that we talk about that? >> yes, otherwise i wouldn't have put it in the statement. >> fair enough. the article itself is under hg1. the internal numbering is page 14. it's a longer number at the bottom right-hand side of the page. it's the number ending 1932. hg1 is tab 2, mr. grant. >> thank you. 1932. >> yes. >> there's a 14 just above it.

>> okay. yes, i have it. >> i'm going to ask you to comment about this. the details probably don't matter. you ended up in the accident & emergency department of this hospital. what the article is saying, or may be trying to say, is that here was a famous man, he didn't pull rank, he waited his turn in the queue. we all know from these a&e departments that you sometimes have to wait a long time, particularly if it's not serious. you made no complaint. this all reflects rather well on you. do you follow that? that's what they were trying to get at. >> yes, but that's not my interpretation of the story. >> okay. >> the classic tabloid technique to cover a really egregious breach of someone's privacy is to wrap it up in a nice story. so if they photograph someone's

baby, they'll say, "oh, what a pretty baby" to try and stop the parents suing them for breach of privacy. >> i'll come back to further -- which to me is a gross intrusion of privacy. they covered it up with a flattering article about me. furthercome back to comment on it, but it ended up with "the sun" either paying damages or paying to a charity; is that right? >> yeah. it wasn't just "the sun" who ran that piece. the express ran a piece similar, as i recall, and as i say in my statement, by that stage of my life -- this was only this year, wasn't it? i think it was this year. i was weary and, to a certain

degree, wary of endless lawsuits against tabloids. they take a long time, there's a lot of stress. so i tried to short circuit it by offering them: "look, there'll be no lawsuit if you just each pay £5,000 to a charity which i support called healthtalkonline," and seeing as they had both talked about my health online, i thought that was elegant. the express flatly refused to pay a penny, and after much protesting, "the sun" gave the charity £1,500. >> is this your point, mr. grant, that it doesn't matter whether the underlying story is true; the point is it's an invasion of your privacy and there is not a public interest in people putting out articles about your health? is that your point in a nutshell? >> i think no one would expect

-- no british citizen would expect their medical records to be made public or to be appropriated by newspapers for commercial profit. i think that's fundamental to our british sense of decency. >> no. to be fair to "the sun," we don't know the source of the story from the article itself. >> no, maybe it was just a lucky guess. >> i don't think they're probably suggesting that, but it could be a number of different cases. >> what would they be, sir? >> there could well be evidence about this later, but the story apparently came from a picture agency who had been tipped off by a non-medical employee at the hospital. could that be true? >> well, there was no picture, so that bit's a little weird. >> right. >> but for them to know my

medical -- the details of why i went there, it must have been someone with access to the computer where you register. nonee and i'm sure it was of the medical staff, who i have to say were fantastic in that hospital, as they always are, but i suspect that it was the age-old system of someone at the hospital being on a retainer from either a tabloid newspaper or perhaps a picture agency. you know: "if anyone famous comes in, tell us and here's 50 quid or 500 quid", or whatever it is i am quite sure -- well, my opinion is that that was the source, as it had been back in june 1996, and as it was again recently in the case of my baby. >> in paragraphs 16 and 17 of your statement, you deal with other intrusions on your privacy, which i think we'll just, if you don't mind, take as read. i would like to move on to

paragraph 18 and the section about paparazzi. paragraphn example onin 18. you give an example of being chased at high speed. iends i've >> that was a relatively common occurrence with two of the girlfriends i've had. they both have children and in both cases -- actually, that's not quite fair. the first girlfriend, when she was with me, we didn't have children, so that doesn't apply, but the second girlfriend -- although that first girlfriend has subsequently had children and been very badly chased and abused, but the second girlfriend, she did have children and she was frequently, especially in the early days of our romance, followed and chased, even when

she had her children in the car and even when the children were not enjoying it, crying. they pulled up for petrol, they'd ask the paparazzi who pulled in and started taking pictures: "please go away, there's children in this car and they're frightened", and these paparazzi would continue to take pictures and then they'd be bought by one of the national newspapers. >> the paparazzi presumably were working freelance? >> yes. as i explain in this statement, there are two kinds of press photographers. there are either ones who are on staff for the papers. they just occasionally show a

modicum of decency, although they didn't in the case of, recently, my baby. i suspect the ones chasing were those freelance types. they were the once trying to take pictures up girl's skirts and digitally remove the underwear. they were the ones following princess diana when she died. the tabloais, -- tabloids said they would never buy pictures from them again, but did 3 months later. >> i would like to come back to the mechanisms by which any of

that can be controlled. >> ashore. >> moving on to the issue of hacking, covered in some detail. to set the scene, you tell us in >> if we move on to the issue of hacking, mr. grant, which you cover in some detail. >> i can't exactly, but i mean i'm guessing it was early 2000's, you know? sort of 2000 to 2005, that kind of time. >> right. were you the direct recipient of such warnings? >> i had circular emails that were sent from schillings, the media lawyers, to lots of clients and to ex-clients. i think i might have been an ex-

client of schillings by then -- i can't remember -- and i remember looking at this list. it was just a warning, saying, "these are some of the things they're up to. be careful of bluetooth, be careful of your pin numbers, be careful of your phones", and so on. "get your car swept." >> then, paragraph 25, you say it was about 2004 when someone came from the information commissioner's office? >> yes, out of the blue. >> can you remember whether it was a policeman who came or was it an official from the information commissioner? >> to be honest with you, i've always been confused about that. he was not wearing a uniform, but for some reason i've always told the story as a policeman, and maybe he had a rank or something. i wish i could tell you accurately and i can't find -- i've looked everywhere for the details of the meeting. i mean, it definitely happened. i didn't make it up. he came to my house, he sat in my kitchen and he told me that they had arrested a private detective, a private investigator, who -- whose

notebook contained intimate personal details on a number of people and i was one of them. and that it contained my address, the address of my -- some close friends, relations. i remember him saying phone numbers, although i know you're about to contest that, but i can't imagine they'd come to tell me they had my address because everyone had my address. i said, "who's this person working for?" and he said, "well, it looks from his notebook like he's working for most of the british press." >> yes, which might suggest it was the information commissioner's office rather than mr. mulcaire, but -- >> i'm sure it was. i'm sure it wasn't mulcaire -- >> i think you'll find the information commissioner employs ex-police officers. >> yes. >> yes, we know that because there was the story recently in the independent about one of those police officers who was shocked that at the end of this particular inquiry, they weren't allowed to interview any

of the journalists who had hired the private detective in the first place. >> you're in danger of foreshadowing evidence we'll be hearing next week from the relevant person, but what i need to put to you, mr. grant, is that it's clearly the information commissioner's office's position that they never discovered any evidence relating to phone hacking. wouldthat's right, it suggest that your recollection must be incorrect and you must be confusing this with the mulcaire notebooks and not the wittamore notebooks. >> i know that this wasn't the mulcaire case that came to me. as i said to you before, i cannot understand why they would come and tell me that a man had my address, because everyone had my address. the paps were out there, you know, all the time. >> yes. >> so if he didn't also have my phone numbers at the very least -- and i think he said pin numbers as well -- then i don't understand why he'd come to see me.

>> can i just break that down? having your address and that may not be that difficult a piece to obtain, could be obtained in breach of the protection act, do you follow me? >> yeah, yeah. >> and it may be that you are associating what could have been a reasonably limited discussion which would limit it to breaches of the data protection act and then extrapolating from that and bringing in more sinister details about pin numbers and possible evidence of voicemail hacking? >> we are obviously not going to agree on this, so we will have to park that issue. but certainly they were telling me about blagging and that kind of thing. >> was that the phrase they used? >> i can't remember. >> i don't think you ought to

assume that he was agreeing or disagreeing. i am sure you appreciate it's very important that those others who are going to give evidence, some of them have seen parts of what you said in order to comment, and part of the system is that you are asked about their concerns so they can respond. but you shouldn't assume because he is asking the question, he necessarily is agreeing with or disagreeing with the proposition he is putting to you. >> i understand. >> was it mentioned by the police commissioner's office? >> it's difficult to imagine that it was about anyone else. >> you learned that sussquently, didn't you? >> yeah. >> the next event was a chance

encounter with a paul mcmullen, mr. grant. you deal with it in paragraph 26 of your witness statement. >> yeah. >> and tell us about the chance encounter. we've read that you ended up in the same cars. >> yes, i broke down in my car, in kent, in the countryside, just before christmas last year. what am i going to do? i am late for my appointment, and there were no taxis around. it was icy. amazingly a van pulled up on the carriageway, and i thought good, some nice person has come to help. instead it was a person with a great, long lens. i can't believe that in the

middle of kent, in the middle of winter, there was a pap. he was taking pictures. i wasn't polite to him. to my horror, there was no other way of getting to my appointment. he kept saying do you want a lift? finally i did. i was suddenly in the car with this man, with my friend, and that is when he revealed that he was an ex-news feature editor who is now retired and running a pub in dover. he kept his camera in his glove box in his car just in case there was some happy accident which he just encountered. then he went on to tell me all these fascinating things, boasting really about how extensive phone-hacking had been at the news of the world, how andy had known about it for sure, how they had enjoyed the competitiveness of five successive governments of the

way they paid off the police. i was thinking for years -- and i think this is all amazing stuff. i wish i had had a tape recorder. >> the next time you saw him, you did have a tape recorder. >> yes, that is right. >> indeed, there is a piece about it, which again in our bundle, hg1, on page 15, it ends 1933 -- >> yeah. >> it's quite a lifty title. >> thank you. >> is it, br grant, a verbatim transcript of the tape recording? >> yes. there are boring bits left out of it. i put in all the juicy bits.

>> we have all read it. i am not going to go over all of it, you understand. i have been asked to go over in particular the very bottom of the first page. >> yeah. >> it reads, it wasn't just the news of the world, it was -- and then it continues. first of all, can you remember what goes in the dot, dot, dot? >> no. that would be one of the boring bits. it's nothing sinister. it could be that the jukebox was too loud at that point. the tape recording is quite hard to hear.

i was able to transcribe it at the meeting. >> we aren't going to do it now, but we could listen to it if you agreed. >> do you have a problem with that? >> i do have a problem with that. i feel like i did my revenge number of paul mcmullen, and for me that's the issue closed with him. when i've had now two separate police inquiries, the one into police corruption and the other one into phone-hacking, they've asked me for the tape, and i've refused because it seems to me too harsh. i don't want to be sending paul mcmullen to prison, in addition to which he has to be given some credit for having been a whistleblower on all this stuff. >> ok. we know that answer, but i've got to continue with your question. it wasn't just the news of the world, it was, you know, the

mail. very much a leading question, mr. grant, wasn't it? >> yes. there was no evidence -- >> but i am not a lawyer. >> fair enough. there is no evidence you had, to your personal knowledge, that email was involved in this at all, is there? i am asking you to be very careful when you answer the question. don't share speculation with us. we are looking for evidence. there isn't any evidence, is there? >> the evidence for the daly mail being involved in phone-hacking for me would be the article we spoke about earlier. a plummy voiced woman and paul mcmullen's answer to this question. >> let's look at the answer then. >> absolutely, yeah.

when i went freelance in 2004, the biggest pairs you thought would be the news of the world were actually the daily mail. the first person i go to is the mail on sunday. did you see that? i want to thank you for that. i got 3,000 pounds. he is talking there about selling a photograph of you, isn't he? >> well, he segued into that, but i didn't leave anything out. if it helps, you can come around to my house and listen to the tape. i left nothing out between it was the mail and him answering, oh, absolutely, yeah. when i went freelance into 2004 -- that is the sequence of the conversation. there is nothing left out. >> what you are asking us to do is read carefully what he said and interpret his answer.

certainly one highly reasonable interpretation of his answer is that he is limiting his comments , his evidence, if you like, to the photograph? >> as i said, he segued in that answer to photographs. so i agree that it's strange sin tax. it's a segue but i have no reason to believe that his answer "oh, absolutely yeah" referred to the "daily mail" being involved in phone-hacking. >> we will hear were mr. mullen. had he been drinking? >> had i been drinking? >> no, mr. mcmullen. >> he didn't seem dunk. >> then you say why would they, the mail, buy a phone-hacked story?

it's a bit of an old question since he hadn't referred to a phone-hacked story. >> it's not an old question given that he had just done the strange segue. it's not interesting that they broke photographs of me brokeen down. i say would they buy a phone-hacked story to which he answers about four or five years they have been cleaner than clean and before that they weren't. they were as dirty as anyone. they had the most money. >> he is not given any details there or any specific phone-hacking activity by the daily mail, has he? >> no. >> we can read on, some of the rest of what he says is quite controversial.

it could be best if i don't read it out. >> i thought this inquiry was for controversy. >> but some of it is controversial in the sense that he names particular names of people who -- >> so? >> well, i will explain. you know perfectly well there is a police investigation going on. >> well, that, yes. >> i've got to be extremely careful. >> i understand that. >> that i don't prejudice any poe -- poe prosecution. and i am sure you wouldn't. >> no, i wouldn't. >> this is being published, it is in the public domain. anybody can google it. frankly we will leave it at that if you don't mind. are you saying for clarity, mr. grant, that if the inquiry

wanted to listen just to the bits of the tape which we have been discussing specifically something which you would be comfortable with or uncomfortable with? >> those bits because i don't think they send mcmullen to prison, so that's fine. >> i want to make clear, i am not being too coy about the investigation. i've made some rulings about how we are going to go, but i don't want to add unnecessary material into the public domain beyond that which necessary for me to go -- >> i get that. >> to be absolutely clear, we are hearing were mr. mcmullen as well. >> good luck. >> the position will be fully explored with him. >> yes. >> that's a helpful vignette

into the case. the mcmullen incident, but you also tell us about -- i am back in paragraph 27 of your witness statement. earlier this year officers come to see you and referred two other witnesses today to speak about this situation. your phone is being hacked. could you tell us a little bit about that meeting, please? >> yes. they rang my lawyer, wanted to show me some evidence. they came round and it was one of the previous witnesses today, explained -- it's quite a formal thing. they formally announce them and say would you have a look at this page. is there anything on there you recognize? i looked at this and i saw various phone numbers of mine and -- from the middle of 2005,

something like that, together with some pin numbers, together with some access numbers. you used to get a separate phone number to ring your messages remotely from another phone and then there were other names i recognized on there, people around me, girlfriends, people i knew, words that all sort of made sense. in one particular case, it triggered a memory of a couple of stories that had been in the daily mirror and in the daily mail. i found that interesting. when you see these pieces of paper in the police inquiry, they redact some bits, the initials of the particular journalist who had commissioned the phone-hacking. so subsequent to that meeting with the police, i was very

interested to know who had commissioned that particular page of hacking, seeing that this particular story had not appeared in the news of the world but had appeared in "the daily mail" and "the daily mirror." >> you mentioned it for the first time but it's not in your witness statement. >> yes, it is. >> my apologies. ok. just for the avoidance of doubt, the top corner, that was in fact somebody who you linked news of the world to get access to the redacted top left corner, i was told i had to ask for it formally through a court. >> so i got it and it was in fact or seems to be a journalist

from the news of the world. so that is a mystery that he commissioned the work but it appeared in the mail and mirror. >> mystery we are not going to be able to take up today or possibly at all. may i move on, please, to your supplementary statement. this deals with quite recent events. culminating in the grant of an injunction last week by the justice. you see a copy of his judgment. first of all, can i ask you, please, to look at page g-2,

which will be behind your witness statement in this bundle. we are not going to go into this in much detail unless you want me to. it relates to the front page in "news of the world." it's from the 24th of april of this year. it looks as if these are photographs taken with a telephoto lens, is that right? >> i would imagine so, yes. i was unaware they were being taken. i wish i could find the paper. >> it is under tab 2, if you go to the first six or seven pages, you reach the end of your witness statement and should find the start of the exhibit

and the first couple of pages of the exhibit are those three pages are the article we are referring to. >> i am on the second tab. >> third tab. thank you very much. >> thank you, sir. so you've got it now. you were not concerned with the headline or not really concerned with the detail unless you want to discuss it. the real point is this is a telephoto lens clearly, and you were unaware that the photograph was being taken? >> correct. >> and you also say in your

statement that you weren't asked to comment before the piece was published along with the photographs? >> correct. >> had you been asked to comment, what might you have said? >> i would have said nothing. there would have been no -- i wouldn't have returned the calls. no one would have returned the calls. >> might you have taken steps to protect your privacy? >> if i had done that, it would have drawn attention to the whole story. my overwhelming motive throughout this whole episode was to protect the mother of my child from a press storm. so anything like what you've just suggested would have been one way of alerting the media. it would have been a matter of public record, and her life would have been made hell as it subsequently was. >> but then turning that on its

head, by doing nothing, your life and her life was made hell anyway, wasn't it? >> we held them off for a surprisingly long time. they after this article -- they followed her around. she was a single pregnant woman. she was being tailed by paparazzi, one in particular who frightened her a lot, over the months of her pregnancy. but they didn't have anything to print that could link her to me until i visited the hospital after the birth, when again there seems to have been a leak from the hospital. at that point, the dam was breeched and we were bombarded with calls saying we know that this happened, that she had a baby and hugh visited and they even knew the fake name she checked into the hospital under.

so clearly there had been a leak. my attitude was to say nothing, which we did for a long time. a lot of pressure was put on, difficult pressure of the tabloids. it was "the daily mail" who seemed to have all the information, the details, etc. they kept saying we are going to print this story yen way. what is your comment? because i got wise to this technique over the years, it seemed to me that was a fishing technique and they didn't want to print the story only bayed on their hospital source because that might have been unethical or illegal. they needed a comment from my side and that is why i said nothing and i asked all my assistants in london and my p.r. people in america who didn't know about this baby to say nothing as well. >> in paragraph 5, the time in

july and then you tell us about the phone calls to -- >> tin lang. >> we see what you say about it, and the man said tell hugh grant to shut the -- up. after that, were the police involved? >> when she told me about it the next day, i immediately called my lawyer and we agreed to get the police on to it, which we did, but at the last moment, tin lang, the mother, probably rightly in retrospect, said let's not do that because there is a chance of a leak from the police and that will bring down the press storm on my head. so we didn't. >> taking that in stages, the contact was made with the police. the police were willing to assist, were they not? >> yes, they were. >> but then they were called off because of concern about leaks

from the press to the police -- from the police to the press? >> were the police to the press. >> you touch on this or deal with it, final sentence of paragraph 6 of your second statement. i am going to ask you to try to exclude from your mind supposition, speculation, and opinion. do you have any direct evidence of leaks from the police to the press, of which you can give us evidence, mr. grant? >> i am not quite sure why supposition blends into evidence, but -- >> that you have direct knowledge of. can we start with that? >> all i know is that for a number of years, if someone like me called the police for a mugging, something in the streets, something that happened to me or my girlfriend, the chances are that a photographer

or reporter would up on your doorstep before a policeman. whether you call that supposition or fact, i don't know. on top of that, i have of course also all paul mcmullen's recorded testimony -- what he said about paying the police, 1/3 of the metropolitan police were on back handers from the tabloid press. >> i think there you are commenting on other people's evidence. can we try to confine it to your own evidence? >> it wasn't just me who experienced this phenomenon of reporters coming around instead of a policeman. other people had been in the public eye who i used to have this conversation with complained of exactly the same thing. >> i think what i am trying to do is trying to ask you to give an example of something which might give rise to the influence that there was a leak from the police to the press, an example

from your own experience, not you commenting on someone else's experience. do you see my point? >> yeah. i am trying to think of a specific one. i certainly remember my one girlfriend being mugged, and we called the police. it was the photographers who came around first. >> ok. thank you. going back to your second witness statement, you visited the hospital, i think, the day after the child's birth. >> yes. >> if you don't mind me giving the dates, it fits into the chronology. it was in september. >> yeah. >> what happened after that

visit in terms of -- >> i had been very reluctant to be present at the birth because of the danger of a leak from the hospital, bringing this press storm down on the mother of my child and what was about to be my child. so i had actually made a plan with the mother not to visit at all but to visit when she got home from the hospital a few days later. she was very happy with that plan. she had my parents there and her female cousin. but on the day of the birth, i couldn't resist a quick visit. i went. i had a look. it was very nice, but the day after that, i think it was, the phone calls started from "the daily mail" in this case saying we know about tinge lang having had this baby. we know about hugh having visited. we are going to write this story. so all my fears about the leak seem to have been justified.

>> the evidence you provide in relation to that, this again is in hg2. we can provide it to you separately. the examples of emails and texts dated october 21, which is three weeks and a bit after the birth -- >> yeah.

>> to be clear about it, "the daily mail" did not public a story until the news had been broken by someone else? >> they threatened to, but because we didn't comment, they didn't until it was broken by an american magazine. >> you said they threatened you. but another way of looking at this is that until they had a comment from you confirming the truth of the story, they quite rightly decided not to public, isn't that fair? >> that would be wrong. it doesn't say it in these emails, but you could bring in my assistant or my publicity people in new york, who started to get the calls as well, on these phone calls it was consistently we are publishing this story tomorrow, which is a tactic to make you say something so they can stand up a story which would otherwise have to

stand up on a piece of leaky information from a hospital. >> whatever they were saying to you in order to try to get you to confirm or deny the story, it is i think a contestable fact they didn't publish the story, did they? >> no they didn't. >> it's a fair inference that the reason they didn't publish the story is you hadn't confirmed its truth? >> i disagree with your interpretation. i think the reason they didn't publish it is because they wouldn't have looked good to public it merely on leaked information from a hospital which is unethical. >> but they might have obtained the information from somewhere else, might not they? >> it's possible, but so highly unlikely that i find it incredible. >> were there other newspapers at this time? >> "the daily star." but the whole story had been the

subject of -- back in the days of the pregnancy had been the subject of "news in the world" interest, one journalist in particular. when "the news in the world" was closed down, that journalist appears to have moved over to "the daily mail" because a lot of these calls come from that same journalist. >> there is no evidence that jurmist took any photographs with him to "the daily mail," is there? >> the photographs subsequently published in "the daily mail" when they did publish a story about my baby, some of those came from -- are identical to the pictures used earlier by "the news of the world." so whether he took the pictures himself or one of his photographers took the pictures, they are the same pictures "the news of the world" used that "the daily mail" subsequently published more recently. >> right.

those pictures could have been purchased from the same paparazzi who had provided the photographs of "the news of the world," couldn't they? >> yes, they could. >> i am going to deal slightly out of sequence before going back with the incident which culminated in injunction proceedings. we cover this in paragraph 20 of your supplementary statement. >> yeah. >> it is potentially a dangerous incident because of the grandmother of the child had to jump out of the way of the car

in which was one or more of these individuals, isn't that correct? >> yes. the house where the mother of my child and my child were besieged was surrounded by the paparazzi, and i asked my lawyer what could be done, and he said maybe if they get some pictures of these people, we can ask them to be called off. so the 61-year-old grandmother of my child went out into the streets, took a pk tier of a man sitting in a car with a great big camera. he turned around, took a lot of pictures her, shouted abuse at her. as she crossed the road, he drove at her very fast, made her jump out of the way. at the end of the road, he came back and menaced her again with the car. >> i think the police were also involved, were they not? >> the police have been called and are coming on wednesday. >> right. but at the time, my

understanding is the police offered to go round and get a statement or investigate the matter with the mother and grandmother. >> i can't -- i think we may have thought about that. i can't remember the exact facts. but certainly the police should be involved in this. >> the police did want to become involved. they were told -- they said they were told by your solicitor you would prefer in the first instance to get an injunction. is that possible? >> that may be true that my solicitor said that. he may have well have been right in that a police investigation would have taken some time. it might have in the end put one bad pap away. there were a bunch of them outside. seeing this was an egregious event likely to warrant an injunction against all of these people, that seems like the

right tactic that he adopted. >> now in questioning the strategy -- we know what has happened and we read the reasons , in the publicly available judgment, but as a little coda to these serious matters, your publicist put out a statement about the birth in the end, right? >> in the end, having held off all that time from all the inquiries and brinkmanship from the british papers an american magazine seemed to have got hold of the story and published, at which point i was in a sort of no-win situation. i in the end decided the best thing to do because the story within hours was going to go everywhere, particularly into the british tabloids i was very anxious that they would give it

a twisted spin, so i thought the best thing to do would be to be as honest about the thing as possible. so i said i am delighted with the birth, but i did not want the papers to write a twisted version which suggested that tin lang was a jilted girlfriend. so i tried to find a form of words to say that she was a friend, but had not been a former girlfriend and that therefore there was no question her having been jilted as a pregnant girlfriend. we had a hasty conversation on the phone while i was filming in germany. it was not ideal circumstances. i was dressed as a cannibal at the time. >> maybe you were, but the form of words which were -- were these.

i can confirm -- this is your publicist speaking on your behalf -- hugh grant is the delighted father of a baby girl. he and the mother had an affair, one not planned. he could not be happier or more supportive. putting it bluntly, weren't you leading with the chin of it? >> as i just said to you, i felt it was important to be honest and not to have a wrong version, a twisted version, appear in the papers which was that she was my girlfriend who had been dumped when she got pregnant, which was not the case, or it was a planned pregnancy. i was protecting her reputation. i was protecting mine. i didn't want to seem i was a monster who ran away from my girlfriend. it's true. i have been given a hard time for using those words, which is ironic seeing as it's actually the truth. but that doesn't seem to be very

popular. >> well, one strategy might have been to say simply to confirm the birth of the child and you are a delighted father, otherwise words to the effect this is a private matter and neither the mother nor the father wish to comment further. >> which would have been an invitation to the papers to write something invented about the relationship that i had with that girl. in the absence of information, they'll make it up. >> what did happen in response to the form of words you selected? you alight on one piece in "the daily mail" which is written in a particular tone that other newspapers have put in similar

pieces. you are aware, there were words to the effect you should marry the woman. some in "the guardian" which isn't complementary and something in "the daily telegraph." it could be said they're all intruding into your privacy. but the theme from each of them is not inconsistent. >> first of all, the words in supportive pieces as well that said, you know, gave me some credit for having stood up for this is my baby and i am delighted and providing for the child and the mother. the hatchet jobs, that's fine. i expect hatchet jobs. that's been the story of the last 17 years, but it always does make you grind your teeth when they're based on falsities

and misreporting and a lot of those hatchet jobs were based, for instance, on the fact that i never had a 21-year-old german girlfriend, which i don't. that was an invented girlfriend and copied by british hacks. it was also based on the fact that i appeared to only visit for half an hour callously after the date of the birth, when in fact if i had been a really good father i wouldn't have visited at all seeing as it brought down a press storm on the mother's head. >> i will just finish this little sequence of evidence before we will break. but in terms of your privacy, is it your position that these matters should not have been covered at all in the press, or is it your position that they should have been covered in a certain way, in a way which

didn't misrepresent -- >> if you cling to the naive notion that newspapers are there to report the truth, nothing could really do wrong with that. i mean, i had a baby with this girl. she's a good friend of mine. she's still a friend. there is really not more to it than that. but that doesn't sell newspapers. so a nasty spin has to be given to it, hence the extraordinary efforts of various newspapers to dig dirt on the new mother, happily enjoying her new baby, while "the daily mail" paid for her ex-lover to sell private pictures of her. >> so i think your complaint is, it's not the intrusion into privacy per se, it is the nasty spin they put on the story which might have been -- >> no. there are moments here which are intrusions into privacy. i think if you paid off someone

at the portland hospital to tell you about a celebrity's baby, that's an invasion of privacy. but -- for instance, but there is also ugly spin being put on a lot of this stuff because it sells papers better, and in the opinion of some people, the hi ugly spin in -- the particularly ugly spin given to the birth of my baby was not unrelated to the fact i am here toyed giving evidence in this inquiry. platell gives my concern about abuses of tabloid press as a particular reason why i should be bothed. so it is possible for some people to see a connection between those hatchet jobs and what i am saying here and have said for the last few months. >> yes.

paying off somebody at the hospital, i must say, that's just supposition. >> unless my cousin rang up "the daily mail" and told them all of the chinese parents who speak no eppinglish did that, it's very hard to enjoy any other conclusion. >> do you know how the american paper or magazine got hold of the story? >> no. >> well, this may be a convenient time -- we will have a break and you can have a break, too, but let me just ask this. you've been granted relief. half of that grant of relief been reflected in your child and her mother being left alone. >> yes, very grateful for it. >> you will be conscious that i've made it clear that i would

want to know if intrusion arose as a result of anybody giving evidence to this inquiry. >> yes, i am grateful for that, too. >> can i go into very brief matters of chronology? the first was raised in relation to the 1996 "daily mirror" article that mr. grant refers to in her graph 13 of his witness statement. it might be possible that we would have today. can i just give you those dates because we have managed to obtain them. as i understand it, the visit to the hospital was in may, 1996, the 29th may, is that -- >> yes. >> the article which appeared in the sunday mirror was on the

23rd of june, 1996. the adjudication was not until the 27th of july of 1997. so, mr. grant, in his recollection was being perhaps generous. it took over a year for that adjudication to arise. as i understand it, a claim was issued in october of 1997 which resulted somewhat more speedily in the judgment that he refers to in paragraph 14 being given in his favor in december, only some two months later. >> thank you. >> can i move on, secondly, to the injunction mr. jay refers to the police and the reports to the police and the decision to follow a civil instead or at least in the first instance. can i just remind you that the incident related to the paparazzi who was trying to run

mr. grant's baby's grandmother took place on thursday, november 10, and i applied the next day for an emergency injunction which was granted by the justice although his reasons arrived a week later. the purpose was to immediately bring the campaign to an end, which as you just heard, it did with remarkable efficiency. that's all i wanted to say, sir. >> this chronology comes out of the judgment. >> it does. >> which we've got. thank you very much.

you have 10 minutes or as long as mr. grant needs. >> you referred to a detail in the story written by the mirror and the mail. i am not asking you for details of the story as such, but can you help us please with an procks date? >> yeah, summer of 2004. >> go back to the issue of press misreporting, particularly in the context of your supplementary statements, you refer in that statement to two

articles in "the sun," don't you? >> do i? what do i say? let's look at it. what paragraph is it? >> paragraph 17. this is the second sentence. i won't go into too much of the detail. you have seen the article in "the sun" on november 3.

first of all, it shows a picture -- it says that you are holding hands with someone. if one looks closely at the photograph, it doesn't in fact look as if you are holding hands with -- >> correct. you can see the palm of her hand. >> if the woman in photograph were correctly depicted -- >> i am used to -- i can't -- >> we provided it separately. >> i don't think mr. grant has it. >> so the three pictures in this article, three girls. >> we are looking at the one at the bottom of the page.

>> sorry, two girls. >> yes. >> that is the same girl, yes. >> to be clear, the article on the following day, november 4, is a different woman altogether. >> yes. there is a picture of me and a girl who is not the same girl. i have no idea who she is. one of the reasons why they're unable to find any pictures of me and my new german girlfriend is because i haven't got one. they've had to find a picture of me and some girl. >> to be fair to the article, i am just looking at what it says and not any inferences which might be drawn from it. you are not -- this woman is not described as your girlfriend, is she? >> you want me to read the whole thing now? >> i think you've had the chance to look at it. maybe you will trust me, she's not described at your

girlfriend, is she? >> i don't know. to me, the headline hugh and new girl three weeks before baby suggests a new girlfriend. maybe i am reading a different language. >> i am just trying to be fair, mr. grant. i am just -- >> you've been very, very fair to the news today. >> i hope i've been fair to everybody. >> you told me backstage you were going to be straight. >> let me continue to be straight. it also reports the woman's denial that this is other than a friendship, isn't it? >> it does. right there in the bottom line

at the end of the article. >> in the middle is a local report which is the report from the german magazine. >> correct, which said there had been after the innocent dinner i had with a german girl on the page before, i dropped her off in a taxi and because the paparazzi had got a boring shot of a man getting into a taxi with a woman, either he or his agency invented passionate kissing in the taxi because there was none and i do know i am under oath here. i only went on it about my supplementary statement because it was a particular stick used to beat me around the head with during the birth of my daughter, and some people think because i am here giving evidence, so they found any stick, a much too

young girlfriend even though she doesn't exist. she twice denied she was my girlfriend. it was in many papers. >> i am not putting a point at you. i am seeking to analyze what appears in this article and you have given me your comment. could i just ask you, what is the position of the papers in germany? have they reported you in the way in which you've complained about -- >> yes, yes. as i said in my main statement, this is one of the problems when something is misreported. it gets splattered around the internet. so this is now fact of the girlfriend all around the world. it really doesn't matter that much except when it's used as a stick to beat me with. you wish they would bother to ask me or listen to the girl's

denials. >> is it possible to do something about this in germany? >> it's not -- it's really not like it's libelous. i was merely giving an example of the use of lazy reporting and misreporting to beat someone up a bit. >> i understand your point. >> if the girl had been 12, i would have sued. >> i understand the point entirely, but i am trying to understand what i can put a box around in this country, whether by way of recommendation or otherwise, and what impact that might have elsewhere in the world to somebody who isn't merely a national figure but has international status.

do you see the point i am -- i am grappling with? >> if the story emanates were abroad, which this one did, your recommend whatever it might be, would be that you have at least have to check the facts or perhaps -- it is hard for me to believe we are going to go over this piece so much. >> i am not concerned about this particular article in turn, indeed, as you probably know, i am not going to -- this inquiry isn't about who said what. i am looking at the bigger picture and the bigger picture is not merely the question of regulation of the press in this country and their practices, but also how that is impacted or affected by what happens abroad

but what happens on the internet. so i am just trying to -- >> all i can say is when it comes to stories being copied around the world, they are copied from the internet and they're particularly copied if they come from a website that belongs to a newspaper, but those newspapers are generally considered to have a certain gravitas and to have been the news gathering techniques to have a certain professionalism. often that may be a mistaken assumption, but that is why the story on a newspaper website will scatter much faster than if it's on someone's blog or a tweet. >> my question is really aimed

at the impact that i can have on other press activity in relation to somebody with an international reputation simply by doing what i can do in this country. >> well, there is obviously nothing you can do outside this country. >> i agree. >> but if you made our press behave more professionally, then the stories that they write would not be so damaging when they spread it around the internet. >> well, i see that. then the question arises, where stories emanate from? one of the stories you talked about i think you said emanated initially in america, but whether it went to america from here i don't know. >> that is always difficult to know. >> i am just trying to grapple with the whole problem. that's all. i am not focusing on individual stories. >> yeah. >> for reasons which you understand. >> yeah.

>> ok, mr. grant. we will move off "the sun." i am going to cover now some matters of opinion to try to look at the bigger picture. before i do that, can i ask you some questions about publicity and publicists? >> yes. >> you referred now at lease once it a publicity you have in the u.s., is that right? >> yeah. >> how many publicists do you have around the world? >> well, i have one. they're in new york, and i only use them sporadically when a film is coming out. not for -- they're like anti-publicists. they're for not getting publicity but for fending off the studios if a film is coming out, the studio will be desperate for you to do everything, particularly in america. and the job of my publicist, i pay them not much money, is to

say he is not doing that. he might do that. between films, i don't pay them. they go on hiatus and they knew nothing about any of this until they kept getting calls from british tabloids saying hugh is having a baby. >> is this right, it's not their function to advise you in relation to your dealings with the press? >> it is in relation to my dealings with press in america when a film comes out and a little around the world. they try to be experts about what tv shows to do if you are in russia. they throw up their hands when it comes to britain. they say we have no advice. it's uncontrollable. >> we did see in relation to that little piece in "the sun" about your health, your publicist declined to comment. >> they called my -- >> they called my -- >>ous wait for