>> good morning, mr. and mrs. dowler. i appreciate that you may be nervous. last time you gave evidence was a difficult one. i won't ask detailed questions about your statement. mr. jay will do that. but can i begin by asking you, we will know it was the revelation publicly in july of

this year that milly's phone had been hacked by people acting on behalf of the news of the world that led to the setting up of this inquiry. can i ask how you feel about that? >> i think the gravity of what happened needs to be investigated. i think there is a much bigger picture, but i think that given we learned about the hacking revelations just before the trial for the murder of our daughter, and it was extremely important that we understood and people understand exactly what went on in terms of these practices to uncover this information from that situation. >> prior to your discovering about milly's phone, did you read stories about other people including well known people whose phones had also been hacked into? >> yes.

we had been aware of gordon taylor and certainly away followed that in the media and were aware of the celebrity awareness viewpoint that would be an issue. of course not realizing until we were informed about hacking in our situation that it was spread much wider. >> how did you feel about the fact that there were other than people whose phones were hacked? what effect about that have on your case? >> fundamentally everybody is entitled it a degree of privacy in their private lives and it is a deep concern that our private life became public. but other people who are in the public eye, their private life became public as well. >> aw we know that you instrucd mr. lewis the solicitor. can you explain how you did?

>> it was during the trial, just before the trial we found out about milly's phone being hacked. when we were given that information it was terribly difficult to process because what do you do with that information when it is in your mind? i worried about the forthcoming trial but also aware of what happened with sienna miller and thinking we ought to get representation. but was frightened about doing that because away didn't have any money so i didn't know how we were going to do that. then i found somebody on the internet and left a message and he phoned and said come see me. >> what was your objective in going to see mr. lewis? >> very much to be in a position

to respond to what would possibly become quite a public situation, how would we deal with that? because we had been given that information but no advice to what to do with it, but recognizing of course have dynamite information and when made public suddenly it got very excited and very moat invitation nvitationed about the whole situation. >> can i ask you just a question about your legal representation? did you have the money to pay for legal advice? >> no, we didn't. >> how were you able to pursue a complaint against news international? >> when we went to see mark, which i have to say was a difficult thing to do because it was during the trial and it was like we've got to do this, bob, because away need somebody to

represent us and literally dragged me to that meeting and he said you don't need to worry about the money, i will represent you come what may. and we were able to use the c.f.a. agreement. wouldn't have been able to proceed. >> we know that the news of the world settled your claim in all-of this year. as you heard my opening submissions and submissions of the other media representatives, what if anything would you like to say to news international now? >> well, i think given the gravity of what became public, the main knowledge about what happened about our phone hacking situation and the circumstances under which it took place, one would hope news international and other media organizations would look carefully at how they

procure and obtain information about stories. because obviously the ramifications are far greater than just an obvious story in the press. >> it was used as an opportunity to put things right in the future and have some decent standards and adhere to them. >> thank you very much. if you just wait there, mr. jay will have some further questions. >> it is obviously fitting that you should be the first witnesses. we would ask you first to deal with paragraph seven of your witness statement. this is the private walk which occurred in may of 2002. do you follow me? >> yes. >> would you tell us about that in your own words? you said it was not a formally

organized walk. what was its purpose, please? >> it was about seven weeks after milly had again missing and a lot of the initial media hype had died down a little bit and it was a thursday, that was the day she'd gone missing. it was quite a sunny afternoon. and she would have come home about 4:00. i remember calling bob and thinking actually he had again off to london on that day into the office and i said to him why don't you come back to walton and i will meet you there and we will do that walk back. because so many questions are just bumping around in your head, why didn't anyone see her, et cetera, et cetera. it was a very last-minute arrangement. so, it was maybe an hour or two before that i phoned bob and said i want to do this so i will meet you at the station and we will walk back together. previously there had been a

presence at the station but how it had calmed down and when we got there it was empty. there was no one there. simply one of the police officers drops me off the station, i met bob and we just basically quietly retraced her ste steps. and no one was really around so it was very much like the day she had gone missing. we put out missing leaflets with her photograph and telephone number on. and that number had been changed. and i was checking the poster number if the rate poster was up and as i walked around i was sort of touching the posters. and we walked back to our house which is maybe 3/4 of a mile. that was on thursday. then on the sunday that photograph appears in the news world and i can remember

seeing it and i was really cross because we didn't see anyone. they obviously had taken the picture with some telephoto lens. how did they know we had done that walk that day and it felt like such an intrusion into ra really private grief moment. >> yes. you were completely unaware at the time that performance were watch being you? >> yes. >> we've the article. i'm not going to be asked that it be put on the screen. we can draw our own inferences as to where the photographer must have been. some distance, of course, in front of you. yes. i don't know where he would have

been to take those pictures. maybe in a parked car down the road somewhere. i don't know. >> i think you can see from the picture we are basically just walking along, completely immersed in the amendment is the honest phrase i would use. then sally saw the poster around decided to check him. >> did you make any kphreupbt about this beyond telephoning the liaison officer? >> no. -- i did phone and had a bit of a rant about how did they get this picture.

but in the scheme of things at the time more importantly was the fact that milly was missing. >> yes, of course. >> that was more time-consuming. >> that wouldn't have prevented your mind to kocome back about e complaint? >> not at that time. >> we agreed we will do our press communication through the police. >> paragraph 10 of your statement you referred to situations when you were approached by journalists and public people. it was quite an event for people to knock on the door. we established that we wouldn't do interviews. we would do everything through the surrey police for the simple reason of not wanting to create

any media war between a particular publication having acce let's say an exclusive. but certainly at the end of the day our response was the same and always has been the same. and even recently we have been doorsteped. i think the thing that was probably quit difficult on our own property i was on our front drive putting something in the recycling bin and suddenly somebody popped from behind the hedge and approached me and i remember it specifically because it was the time that the head of the investigation of the police team was changed and he said to me what do you think of the surrey investigation being changed. really, it was sort of what possibly am i going to say?

unfortunately i had the fore site that i'm not going to say anything and i said i had no comment and i think somebody said in the paper he had no something to that effect. but for the simple reason that obviously just to try to avoid giving specifics of things. one question and the next question and then you are engaged in a discussion and that de facto becomes an interview, doesn't it? >> yes, every time someone went out the front door you had to be on guard because somebody might be there and they would come up to you when you least expect it and so as you are lifting something in and out of the car and they will fire a question at you without introducing themselves and you have to train yourself not to answer. >> yes. the tack feel

technique. >> i think that it is quite concerning because at the end of the day you are afraid it open your front door because you are faced with a question. and however you respond to that question might then lead to a head line of one lane or two and that is difficult to deal with. we have always tried to be polite and courteous and leave it at that. >> of course, i have to ask you next about milly's phone and the voicemail interception. you deal with it in paragraphs 13 to 15. in trying to fix this into the

criminology you think this must in april or may of 2002. is that correct? >> yes. it was quite soon after she had gone missing. because where she actually was abducted is opposite this building down by the station. there were cameras on the building so everything focused around the cctv cameras. so we were asked to go up to look at the cctv to see if we thought somebody on it was milly. do you want me to tell you about what happened? >> yes, particularly -- first of all, you said you were agaphoni in to milly's voicemail quite regularly. >> yes. >> was there anything else? >> at first we were able it leave messages, then her

voicemail became full and then you rang and just got the recorded "we are enable to leave messages at the moment." and i was used to hearing that. and we had gone up to the building to look at the cctv and we were sitting down at the reception and i rang her phone and it clicked through on to her voicemail and i heard her voice. and it was just like she could picked up the voicemail, she is alive. and it was then, really. with when we were told about the hack being that is the first thing i thought. >> your immediate reaction was to phone jemma? >> yes, we spoke to jemma. then it died down because you are thinking is that the only

reason it could have happened or what have you. i thought i could hold out hope because she picked up her voicemail. >> that is certainly a reasonable inference. can you tell us anything about the police reaction when you shared that with them? remember is that they told us they put some credit on her phone because she was very low and had no credit on her phone. i can only remember them telling us they had put some credit on her phone. >> when you told them that you managed to get through the voicemail message did that excite any particular reaction from the police? >> i can't relevance remember that. >> i think one of the fellows was with us but unfortunately that is nine years ago, it is hard to remember the details. >> whether it had an impact on the police investigation is a

matter of speculation. >> something for them, isn't it? because at the end of the day it was their investigation. >> then much later on, this was shortly before the criminal charge, you learned from the police that the voicemail had been hacked into by the news of the world, april of this year? >> yes. >> specifically that what we were told. >> what was your immediate reaction for that piece of news? >> well, we got called to say that the police wanted to see us. and to tell us what it was about. and as soon as i was told it was about phone hacking, literally i

didn't sleep for about three nights because you raceway play everything in your mind and just thinking that makes sense now, that makes sense. then we went along to the meeting and i said to them about this instance and also about walking back from the station were the two things that at the time i thought this is odd. something untoward is going on. >> in your mind you made the media connection into the dialing into the voicemail and also a possible connection with the private walk you told me about? >> yes. >> the only thing to remember, of course, is the walk had nothing to do with milly's phone. it could only have come from -- >> our phones or our own phone.

>> thank you for that. and you know for obvious reasons namely the fact of the criminal trial this is information you could not share more widely until the trial was included. and we also know that the revelation, the 4th of july of this year fitting to the chronology. let me ask you about some wider questions. you refer to the double edged sword. i suppose you had to engage to some extent in order to assist the police in their inquiry. on the other hand it was important to remain private. is there anything else you would like to assist the inquiry about the double edged nature of what

you might have had to do at that time? >> i think in essence in our situation you have to remember we were really, really desperate for some information about milly. so, the press were in a position to be of help. they could get the information out that she was missing and lots of information came in to the police headquarters. but on the other hand, being questioned and being doorsteped and everything else that is associated with it and all the letters you get books, films, spwaus. >> i think the point to make just now is i followed the media over the years quite a bit more

than sally does and i certainly that it is very important that we would try to be as consistent as we could in dealing with the media and not to actually give any one party a particular position or wrangle for the very reason about not wanting to create another set of issues to deal with. because in fact in the early days, the first six months, of course, we were in a very desperate situation and in fact it was unprecedented in your normal life for ms. people and how do you deal with these things? so we tried as best we could to be as balanced as we could about it but recognizing that things are outside of your own control. >> plainly well outside your own experience. you had to rely on your own judgment in an entirely unique situation. did you get any help?

>> very much so. they were brilliant. they really helped us. and they were coordinating things. they took the majority of the burden off of us. >> and we chose that route as well. >> thank you. i'm not going to ask you about the settlement of your civil claim. you had a meeting with mr mr. rupert murdoch, which i think was probably about the 12th or 13th of july. i'm sure that was a difficult meeting for both of you rb, is t right? i mean both of you and mr. murdoch. >> yes, it was a very tense meeting. >> and he made it clear that

what had happened was totally unacceptable, didn't he? >> he did, yes. yes, he was very sincere. >> you refer to a letter about a meeting with the company and the prime minister. i don't need to go into it unless you like. could i ask about the section of your statement that deals with the future. you touched on it a little bit, mr. dowler. this inquiry you consider about the press culture and ethics, looking back and looking to the future. if you are here it make recommendations this is your chance. is there neglect you would like to -- anything you would like to suggest to the lord justice

leveson at this stage? >> we were asked the question when we visited the prime minister and we are ordinary people so we have no experience in such a public light situation. and certainly no experience from a media, controlled media involvement situation. that has always been on our best judgment as to how we dealt with test matters. >> it was more the extent of it exposed and the inquiry could make the decisions. >> yes, it appears it the inquiry that your judgment has been extremely well exercised under difficult situations and we appreciate that. but do you have anything more general that you would invite the inquiry to think about? >> i think we will leave that up to you.

>> how very generous of you. you. >> i have no further questions for you. i'm extremely grateful for your evidence and the way in which you kindly and frankly answered my questions. thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> i think you were acting for the dowlers. are there any further questions you want to ask? >> i have no further questions. >> thank you very much for coming. thank you. >> thank you. >> we will break five minipulates before we -- minutes before we continue. >> certainly, five minutes.

>> good morning. i will call the next witness, ms. smith. >> i joan smith affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. >> mrs. smith, i will say to you as i said before, thank you very much indeed for agreeing to give eviden evidence. this was a voluntary activity and i'm conscious that it exposes personal matters that affect you in the public domain.

>> good morning, mrs. smith. would you state your full name? >> john smith. >> you provided a witness statement to the inquiry. we can see that on the big screen. before i ask you any killed questions about your is the -- detailed statement can i ask you to confirm that statement was to the best of your knowledge and belief. >> yes. i will start with who you are. we have the witness statement in front of them. for those that don't have the statement could you tell us a little bit about who you are and your career history. >> i have been a journalist more than 30 years. i started my year in national newspapers on the sunday times. i worked for the sfpb thames insight -- sunday times doing stores like the iranian embassy sie siege. i decided to go

freelance and i have written for of national newspapers, the guardian, both the independences. mainly the columnist, the evening standard. also write backs. i'm the author of six published novels and my most famous book is about woman hating. i also wrote for penguin a back about secular morality. then i do my human rights work for -- from 2000 to 2004 i chaired the english pen writing which was set up to promote freedom of expression and look after imprisoned writers and their families. at any time we were looking out for about 350 writers in places like syria, china, trying to make representations on their behalf.

we started sending people to observe them, trials if they were in court. in 2005, i went and observed the trial of a man in istanbul. in 2008 i got involved in a project in sierra leone collecting becomes. i did that with the times. they gave me the chance it launch an appeal for children's backs. we werable to collect about a quarter million to 300,000 children's becomes that we shipped out to set up school librari libraries. so, i do both of those things. >> thank you very much. i want to talk about the paragraph 11 of your statement.

this is the work that you did with the human rights policy department campaigning for freedom of expression for journalists around the world. could you tell us about that work. >> robin cook was a friend of mine. in 2001, just before the election he asked me if i would chair his last big speech as fortune secretary. we didn't know it was the last big speech, obviously. afterwards he wanted to talk about how he put into dimension the ethical dimension of his policy that was a statement he made after he became foreign secretary in 1996. afterwards i met both his specialist and head of rights of the human rights department and they said we want more involvement with n.g.o.'s. and they sucked that if i was

thinking of sending -- sucked if i was sefrpding somebody to a trial in a place like belarus which is a frightening thing to do, that we could liaise with the foreign office and they would put you us in touch with ambassadors and we set up quite an effective system. i remember there was a trial in bell raus in particular -- belarus, i asked somebody to go observe the trial and they got a lot of help from the british ambassadors in minsk which was fortunate because it was a very unpleasant scene and the court was cleared by the local version k.g.b. and there were talks every year on the future of turkey's education to join the e.d.u. and we did a lot of monitoring of in turkey and we would take part in the talks with the foreign office and give lists of things like all the books that were banned in turkey and whether it was going up or down and whether journalists

were still being imprisoned and so on. >> obviously a lot of interesting work. tell us briefly how important do you consider freedom for expression of journalists? >> it is essential. the reason i got involved in this work is that it seems that a tree press is absolutely a cornstone of civil society. if you don't have a free press, which is able it call -- to call politicians and big companies, hold people to account then you have problems. i always felt i was lucky to pursue a career in a country where we did have a free press because i'm aware of what happens to journalists in countries where there isn't one. >> do you consider yourself to be celebrity? >> not in the least. i'm a very minor public figure

in the sense that i write backs and increasingly people had write books are expected to turn up at festivals and talk about where we get our ideas and things like that. but i'm a writer. i can speak in public and i have. but i don't think that i'm somebody whose private legislative would be as much interest to the reading public. i'm sure the things i writ for people who write my novels would be baffled to know who i was. >> moving on to the next question about your personal life, i really don't want to ask about your personal leaife save one. for a number of years you were in a lip relationship with denis macshane. >> yes. >> this is probably a delicate question but was there anything illegitimate or secretive about that? >> he was my participate from

2003 to 2010 and i was always quite open about it. just before this, before i sp e spoke, we had been to a in venice that denis was speaking at in early 2004. and i remember we had dinner with the former prime ministers of italy and swede and that doesn't seem to be a way to conduct a private relationship. >> you see at paragraph 27 you rarely mention your private life when you are write a column. can you tell me whether you ever have discussed your personal or private life in your column and, if so, what would you typically say? jobs very rarely. i remember once denis rang me and said that he and three friends had just heard about

something and i happened it call the independent that day and i was talking about the changes, the way in which aging has change and how people of my discrimination do things that at ages our parents would never dream of. but it was sort of a half accidence about my partner rang to say he climb a mountain with three friends in their late 50's. that was all. >> you mentioned a moment ago that you have appeared in something. when did you first become aware that you might have been accessed? >> in april of this year when i got an e-mail from a detective. >> can you tell us about what what you did? i got in nged to -- touch with the detective and wrote back his e-mail and said i

gather you are trying to get in touch with me and here are my details, my home address, telephone number and mobile phone. he e-mailed back and said those are all the details we have in the notebook and he invited me it a meeting and i went to my lawyer to organize the meeting. i sat next to one of them and it was kind of the ceremonial unveiling of the notes and i'm sure lots of people have again through this. you are asked we are going to show you some pages from the notebook and can you tell us if you recognize anything. and of course the very first passenger my name, address -- my page, my name, and as he made note that i was writing for both the independence and the times. what seemed significant to me and what i found profoundly shocking is that he seems to

have been a very obsessive note taker and as well as writing the name in the corner of the paper he made a note of gates and my -- dates and my name and address appear on the 5th of may of 2004 approximately six weeks after denis's eldest daughter was killed in a sky diving accident in australia that had attracted a huge amount of publicity. was incredibly shocked that in that period when denis was bee referred it is not -- bee referred it is not an easy time that the news of the world was interested in both of us to ask him to listen to our voicemails. >> can you tell us what your reaction was when you saw this that they had access to your

voicemail? >> i'm amazed by how shocked i was because in my journalistic live i had a couple of bad experiences. i was caught in a riot in sierra leone and i recognize the impact of shocked but then i was in a daze. he had found out and made a note that we were going to spain, i was going to a pen conference to writerser people, other who work for freedom of expression. i was going to barcelona and denis was coming out the following weekend and he was going to make a speech in spain and we were arranging to meet up and i was amazed by the detail of notes that he had made about flight times and a note saying her to him so it appeared that he had been getting information from my voicemail. and the police said to me is

there any way that he could have gotten this information legitimately. and given that it was about two months after the bombings in madrid when there was a very high level of security around government ministers it seemed unlikely but i remember leaving that meeting and i had to go to a meeting in the city and my mind was just buzzing. and you suddenly start thinking does that slain something. and i arrived -- explained something. and i arrived at the meeting early and the managing director said are you all right and i realize it was complete shock. i had no idea that was happening. >> i have asking else about that perd. what sort of things were you writing? you said you were writing columns. what sort of things were you

writing then? >> i was writing a lot for the times. they would ask me to do additional things and i did an interview for westwood and my name was on the cover. i was also writing columns. i think it was the 8th of april of 2004 -- >> do you have that document of in front of you? it was handed out to everyone this morning. >> yes. i wrote a column headed and i think there had been a huge amount of interest in the marriage of the beckhams at that point and they would tried to negotiate -- kind to their way through personal cris crisis. a column saying -- i suppose what was in the back of my maintained was the intrusive

reporting of the death of tkoeu denis's daughter saying celebrities think they can kind of control the media and keep them trendily and actually the appetite of stories is so remorseless that they lose control of the story. so i was saying that i found it very disturbing that we have gone from a situation where the idea of privacy used to be a shield for hypocrisy and people would do terrible things and pretend they were upstanding. we moved from that it a situation where people have almost no privacy. so i was saying in this column in the times i find it shocking that no matter what happens it people, whether it is bereavement or a marital problem you are expected to deal with it in the public eye. in the times and

four weeks later the news of the world asked him to fire me. >> what is the link in your mind any? >> i'm not sure there is one. from what i have been able to understand about mr. marques's activity and the number of names it has been said that it was on an industrial scale and it could happen to almost anybody. you don't have to be an incredibly famous actor or actress. you just have to be coming into the orbit of somebody that is well known. and i think that there is such a gap between the cultures of the two parts of the press what i of as the serious press that i write for and tabloid press. but it wouldn't occur to tell to look at what i was writing and think about the arguments.

>> you have had a few months to digest the information that was accessed. how do you feel about that now? you talked about having your phone accessed when mr. mcshane lost his daughter. >> i think there is sort of a wide lesson to be drawn from this. i think i mentioned this at one of the seminars. t seems to me that tabloid culture is so remorseless, its appetite is so unable to be filled that the people involved have lost any sense of dealing with human beings. when i was doing investigative journalism i often had to go knock on the door of somebody who was bee reaoe -- bee reefe. but it was not because i wanted to know.

there was always a purpose which i could explain and say you may not want to talk to me. if you don't, i will go away. actually nobody ever did say go away. this is just everything has become a story and we are all caricatures. i think the tabloid press we are just two dimension a.m., which is fodder -- dimensional, which is fodder for stories. >> we have articles about your relationship with denis mcshane. you see as recently as 2010 they asked about that relationship and it had ended earlier than tkaes.

what is your view, is that appropriate? >> it depends entirely on the context. it seems to me that there is a difference between somebody who is in the public eye, like a politician who makes what i call traditional values part of his platform. if somebody says the saefrpbgtity of marriage is -- sanctity is important and people shouldn't have cohabitive relationships and then they pose with their family in their election listen, then i think a -- election literature. but neither denis or i ever invited the press into our lives. quite the on assessment on each occasion -- and this has gone on at a low level about 20 years -- i have been approached and they come in this chummy way can you

tell us about your relationship with so and so and i would say i'm a journalist. if i wanted to put my private live in the public domain i could do it myself and i would get the facts right. why would i need you. to be fairly pole la-- polite. and in december when i got this call it was only a few months after i had left denis, and i don't think that the journalist who contacts you realizes or cares that you are in quite a vulnerable stage and you are still processing the feelings of a long relationship ended and it was not very nice. i had been running and i had removed my clothes and i got this person from the mail saying we gather you and tkoeufrpbs -- tkoeufrpbs and i thought i'm naked before the tabloid press and why should i be.

>> some people might say that the press are entitled to relationship about the relationship of public figures regardless of whether they make statements about the virtues of family life and so on. would you say to that? >> i think it is a confusion, the old confusion of not understanding the difference between what interests the public and what is in the public interest. i think private life is a commodity. i wrote a book about secular ethics and morality and i think adults lead their lives in lots of different ways. for example, i think that the legalization of civil partnerships of gay and lesbian people is a great advance and i think marriage should be available to them. i think adults lead their way in quite a sophisticated way and they don't use one model.

yet the tabloid press lives in a anyone 50's -- 1950's world where everyone is supposed to get married and anything outside of that is a story. >> i want to ask about an article about 19th of june, 2005 the headline the secret divorce and [inaudible]. the other article is -- let's first with that one. that was confirming that your relationship was happening. was the divorce secretly divorced? >> i didn't know you could be secretly divorced. thought you had to go to court and it was listed and so on. i think that there is interesting confusion between secret and private.

i think denis -- i don't want to speak for him but i think he regarded his divorce as a private matter and didn't go around telling journalists. i can't see how it was secret. >> the other article where you were contacted last year in the gym and talking about your relationship ending. did you complain about either of the articles at the time? >> no, it didn't cross my mind. >> why did it not cross your mind? >> because i have seen too many versions of press regulation in this country, the press council and current p.c.c. and i don't think that they are adequate bodies to deal with this kind of problem. by the time you complain to them the article is out there and all your friends have read it.

so you are not going to get much in the way of redress. >> i have been asked to put one other question to you. it is about an article you wrote in the "evening standard" on the 5th of december, 2001. i will put a copy in front of y you. this appears to be an article that you wrote in 2001 about [inaudible] and her relations p relationship. you discussed the issue between the two parties at that time. and set out at the end some views. i wrote about their private

life. f, as you say the tabloid becomes overzealous about private lives why don't you yourself about celebrities? >> because i have been writing since 1990's about the mistake i think that celebrities make of putting too much of their private life in the public domain. i didn't go doorstep them or ring them up or ask them about their private life. they put that in the public domain. if you read the article, i'm saying this is a very dangerous do.ng to i said the same thing about the late princess diana. people think they can put their private legislative in the public domain and still control what is said about them. what worries me is that given the underlying nature of the tabloids somebody at the time elizabeth hurley was pregnant and i thought she was in a vulnerable stage and i thought

it was actually quite a dangerous track chefs on and i -- she was on and i talk about the kind of under layilaying na in our culture of people who are beauty and base their careers on their appearance and the danger that they lose their reputation to lose an old fashioned world so i'm happy when i get a chance to smuggle feminist ideas in the popular press. >> thank you very much. you said in your statement you have continued to fight for the press. in your experience can i ask you this. i want to know whether you have any views on the current system of regulation. does it work? and do you have any views on what you would like? >> no, i don't think it does work. i'm very opposed to any.

in terms of regulation i think that there needs to be a successful body to the p.p.c. that is not dominated by editors and has more representation from outside. i think there ought to be things li like, if newspapers don't take part in this i think they should lose their exemption. there should be a carrot and stick of taking part. i think there ought to be a much faster writer reply. i think it should also take in mediation in other situations like where libel might be involved. i think it needs to be a much more complex and capable body. on top of that, i think that what needs to happen is a change

in culture. i think that we do have a tab lid culture which i -- tabloid culture that is almost infantile in its attitude to private and section. it is my impression that tabloid hacks go around like children who just discovered the astonishing information that their parents had sex and they can't resist peeking around the door to see it and the rest of us get on and the obsession of in private legislative is remorseless and pitiless in terms of what it does. >> is there anything that you like to add? >> i don't think so. >> i have a couple. you have identified on a number of occasions the ethics of what you have called the tabloid pre press. is there or should there be any

difference to the ethical considerations which are put into the work of reporters by any section of the media? >> no, i don't think there should and i think that is the real problem. when i first started out as a journalist i wasn't particularly of any codes of ethics but i knew why i had become a journalist. i wanted to change the world. and i thought that at times it might be necessary to break the law. during one investigation i was threatened. but i think the that things have diverged much too far and it should be possible to have a vibrant tabloid press that does the kind of things say the daily mirror did a few decades ago when the tabloids saw themselves as crusading papers. but that is not something they see as doing particularly any more.

so, there is a separation which i think is damaging. meot of the time people like who wraeut for what i was talking about earlier, i feel like a different breed from the ethics, the people who work on tabloid papers. >> the second question is this. the ave seen the taoematerial police assembled from the mull ke -- mulcaire note becombooknoteb. you see any sense of you being targeted because of you or because you were an adjunct of mr. mcshane? >> i think the latter. i think the death of his daughter made his profile higher and they got interested in him and once they got interested in him they got interested in me so i suppose i was sort of collateral damage. >> thank you very much.

>> we should break before the next witness. >> i think that is sensible. i'm perfectly content just to let people have a pwraebreak. i will say the same to witnesses that are coming. this is not always an entirely plenty ordeal. thank you. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2011] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> today a look at the future of healthcare legislation with susan dentzler then a discussion about the defense authorization bill. later we will klatt with carol rosenberg of the "miami herald" on the cost of operating the guantanamo bay detention center. that is live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> the official white house christmas tree arrived friday.

first lady michelle obama and sasha and malia got a look at the tree as it arrived at the north portico. the tree from wisconsin will be decorated to honor military families.

>> what do you think? do you like [inaudible] >> happy holidays. >> happy holidays.